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Are you feeling lucky? 49 00:01:59.200 --> 00:02:02.719 No, We're necessary conditions play every to get. 50 00:02:12.439 --> 00:02:12.479 You. 51 00:02:12.560 --> 00:02:16.319 Are now listening to True Murder The most shocking killers 52 00:02:16.360 --> 00:02:19.360 in true crime history and the authors that have written 53 00:02:19.360 --> 00:02:26.599 about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every week, 54 00:02:26.800 --> 00:02:30.599 another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous 55 00:02:30.680 --> 00:02:34.639 killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 56 00:02:35.039 --> 00:02:37.560 journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 57 00:02:47.159 --> 00:02:52.000 Good evening. In the pantheon of serial killers, Bell Gunnis 58 00:02:52.240 --> 00:02:56.960 stands alone. She was the rarest of female psychopaths, a 59 00:02:57.039 --> 00:03:00.800 woman who engaged in wholesale slaughter hartly out of greed, 60 00:03:00.879 --> 00:03:01.800 but mostly. 61 00:03:01.520 --> 00:03:02.599 For the sheer joy of it. 62 00:03:03.560 --> 00:03:07.759 Between nineteen o two and nineteen o eight, she lured 63 00:03:07.759 --> 00:03:11.560 a succession of unsuspecting victims to her Indiana murder farm. 64 00:03:12.759 --> 00:03:17.000 Some were hired hands, others were well to do bachelors. 65 00:03:17.599 --> 00:03:20.919 All of them vanished without a trace when their bodies 66 00:03:20.960 --> 00:03:24.400 were dug up. They hadn't merely been poisoned, like victims 67 00:03:24.439 --> 00:03:29.800 of other female killers. They'd been butchered. Hell's Princess is 68 00:03:29.840 --> 00:03:32.479 a riveting account of one of the most sensational killing 69 00:03:32.520 --> 00:03:37.000 sprees in the annals of American crime. The shocking series 70 00:03:37.039 --> 00:03:39.039 of murders committed by the woman who came to be 71 00:03:39.159 --> 00:03:43.800 known as Lady Bluebeard, the only definitive book on this 72 00:03:44.000 --> 00:03:48.159 notorious case and the first to reveal previously unknown information 73 00:03:48.240 --> 00:03:53.520 about its subject. Harold Scheckter's gripping, suspenseful narrative has all 74 00:03:53.599 --> 00:03:56.879 the elements of a classic mystery and all the gruesome 75 00:03:56.960 --> 00:04:02.479 twists of a nightmare. The featuring this evening is Hell's Princess, 76 00:04:03.319 --> 00:04:06.560 The Mystery of Bell Gunnis Butcher of Men, with my 77 00:04:06.680 --> 00:04:12.599 special guest, journalist and author and professor Harold Scheckter. And 78 00:04:12.719 --> 00:04:15.080 we're waiting for Harold Scheckter to connect to the program. 79 00:04:16.040 --> 00:04:23.560 We'll give him a few minutes. Fascinating story. Harold Scheckter 80 00:04:23.639 --> 00:04:29.759 has been on the program, and here we go. Welcome 81 00:04:29.839 --> 00:04:32.279 to the program, Harold Scheckter, Thank you very much for 82 00:04:32.360 --> 00:04:32.879 this interview. 83 00:04:34.439 --> 00:04:36.319 My pleasure. Thank you for inviting me. 84 00:04:38.040 --> 00:04:40.959 Thank you, thank you. It's always a pleasure for me. 85 00:04:41.120 --> 00:04:41.360 For this. 86 00:04:44.519 --> 00:04:48.720 Customary question, why did you want to write this book? 87 00:04:48.759 --> 00:04:51.519 What was it about this book that so fascinated you? 88 00:04:53.360 --> 00:04:56.600 Well, I've been wanting to write this book for a 89 00:04:56.680 --> 00:05:04.160 while and other projects intervened. Uh. You know, I've been 90 00:05:04.199 --> 00:05:06.560 interested for a long time in the whole phenomenon of 91 00:05:07.319 --> 00:05:13.720 female serial murder. And when I came across the case 92 00:05:13.800 --> 00:05:16.360 of Belgunnis, which I did a number of years ago 93 00:05:17.319 --> 00:05:20.079 in a book called Women Who Kill by the feminist 94 00:05:20.160 --> 00:05:29.079 author Anne Jones, I was very struck by certain features 95 00:05:29.279 --> 00:05:32.639 in her case, you know that made it unique. I've 96 00:05:32.680 --> 00:05:36.920 written about other female serial murders before. In my book Fatal, 97 00:05:37.000 --> 00:05:41.040 I wrote about a female poisoner named Jane Toppin who, 98 00:05:41.639 --> 00:05:46.079 until John Wayne Gacy Kim came along, was listed as 99 00:05:46.160 --> 00:05:51.000 the most prolific American serial murderer in the Guinness Book 100 00:05:51.040 --> 00:05:54.279 of World's Records. She confessed to thirty one killings. But 101 00:05:54.439 --> 00:05:59.519 Jane Toppen, like other what they used to call female 102 00:05:59.759 --> 00:06:06.879 American porgies after you know, the notorious Renaissance poisoner Lucretia 103 00:06:06.959 --> 00:06:14.560 Borgia Chaine topp and poisoned her victims. She was a 104 00:06:14.639 --> 00:06:18.680 private nurse, so they were all patients, some siblings and 105 00:06:18.800 --> 00:06:22.040 good friends. The thing that made Bell gunn Is very 106 00:06:22.160 --> 00:06:27.639 unique was the fact that she would butcher the bodies 107 00:06:27.680 --> 00:06:32.560 of her victims after killing them. So you know, that's 108 00:06:33.199 --> 00:06:39.439 a characteristic that you usually don't associate with female serial killers. 109 00:06:39.959 --> 00:06:42.120 So that was one thing that, you know, that caught 110 00:06:42.199 --> 00:06:43.480 my attention about the case. 111 00:06:45.279 --> 00:06:50.639 Certainly. Now, just you talk about Bluebeard. But for those 112 00:06:51.000 --> 00:06:54.879 that don't know this legend or this story of the Bluebird, 113 00:06:55.079 --> 00:06:57.759 briefly tell us what the story of Bluebird is before 114 00:06:57.800 --> 00:07:01.399 we talk about this little community, this city outside of 115 00:07:01.480 --> 00:07:05.480 Chicago called Laporte where all of this happens. Tell us 116 00:07:05.519 --> 00:07:06.399 about the blue Beard. 117 00:07:08.360 --> 00:07:16.639 Well, blue Beard is originally a French fairy tale that 118 00:07:17.000 --> 00:07:25.600 was written by Charles Perraut, collected in his famous Early 119 00:07:25.879 --> 00:07:30.399 fairy Tale Anthology, tells him mother goose uh And in 120 00:07:30.639 --> 00:07:38.720 the Pierrot version, blue Beard is this creepy, elderly aristocrat 121 00:07:39.920 --> 00:07:46.920 with a blue dyed beard who weds a series of 122 00:07:47.040 --> 00:07:53.199 young women and takes them off to his castle and 123 00:07:53.560 --> 00:07:58.920 then tests them by going off on a trip and 124 00:07:59.120 --> 00:08:03.480 leaving them with the keys to all the room rooms 125 00:08:03.519 --> 00:08:05.800 in the castle, and he says, you can go anywhere, 126 00:08:06.839 --> 00:08:10.560 but just don't go into this one room, this forbidden chamber. 127 00:08:12.000 --> 00:08:16.439 And as soon as he's gone, of course, the young 128 00:08:16.519 --> 00:08:24.000 women's curiosity overcomes them. They enter this chamber. As soon 129 00:08:24.079 --> 00:08:27.600 as they do, he returns and says, you know, you 130 00:08:27.800 --> 00:08:30.600 violated my trust, and then he chops them up and 131 00:08:31.399 --> 00:08:34.639 hangs all their body parts in the chamber. So he 132 00:08:34.720 --> 00:08:39.039 has this bloody chamber full of the dismembered body parts 133 00:08:39.120 --> 00:08:43.639 and decapitated heads of all his wives. So that, you know, 134 00:08:43.759 --> 00:08:48.960 that's the basic premise of the Bluebeard story. Supposedly it 135 00:08:49.120 --> 00:08:55.039 was inspired by an actual serial murderer, guy named Gille Deray, 136 00:08:55.159 --> 00:08:58.480 who was a French aristocrat and a comrade in arms 137 00:08:58.559 --> 00:09:03.080 of Joan of Arc. So the term blue beard, you know, 138 00:09:03.200 --> 00:09:08.879 has come to be used in criminology generally speaking, you know, 139 00:09:09.039 --> 00:09:13.879 to describe men who wed and murder a series of wives. 140 00:09:14.960 --> 00:09:17.879 You know, there have been some very notorious blue beard figures. 141 00:09:17.919 --> 00:09:21.759 There was a French blue beard named Henrie Landerue. Charlie 142 00:09:21.840 --> 00:09:26.559 Chaplin actually made a movie Monsieur Verdoux that was based 143 00:09:26.600 --> 00:09:30.679 on Landrew. In our own country, there was a guy 144 00:09:30.759 --> 00:09:34.720 named Johann hawk Well that was one of his many 145 00:09:34.840 --> 00:09:39.039 aliases who married a string of wives and you know, 146 00:09:39.320 --> 00:09:45.679 knock them off. So yeah, so that's that's the derivation 147 00:09:46.639 --> 00:09:50.240 of the term blue beard, right. 148 00:09:52.000 --> 00:09:55.519 You talk about Laporte and outside of Chicago, but also 149 00:09:55.720 --> 00:09:58.960 you also talk about the prominence of Chicago in the 150 00:09:59.080 --> 00:10:01.840 late eighteen eighties. So tell us a little bit about 151 00:10:02.000 --> 00:10:03.080 both of these communities. 152 00:10:04.399 --> 00:10:08.919 Well, you know, Chicago, which basically had been reduced to 153 00:10:09.080 --> 00:10:16.840 ashes by the Great Conflagration of eighteen seventy two, I believe, anyway, 154 00:10:16.960 --> 00:10:22.039 had you know, Chicago originally was nothing but a few 155 00:10:22.320 --> 00:10:26.399 kind of huts on the muddy banks of you know, 156 00:10:26.600 --> 00:10:31.240 the lake, and it grew at this phenomenal rate. But 157 00:10:31.399 --> 00:10:34.080 initially most of the buildings, you know, were built of 158 00:10:34.200 --> 00:10:37.799 wood and the sidewalks through wood planks. It was really 159 00:10:37.879 --> 00:10:40.720 kind of a tinder box. And then you know, basically 160 00:10:40.879 --> 00:10:43.960 the whole city was destroyed in the Great Chicago Fire, 161 00:10:44.519 --> 00:10:47.720 and they rebuilt it very very quickly. It was kind 162 00:10:47.759 --> 00:10:50.919 of this marble of urban growth. It was the first 163 00:10:50.960 --> 00:10:56.919 skyscraper city. So by the late nineteenth century, you know, 164 00:10:57.080 --> 00:11:00.720 it was the second largest herb the center of the 165 00:11:00.759 --> 00:11:05.840 country after New York City, this great metropolis which attracted 166 00:11:06.919 --> 00:11:11.639 these hordes of migrants from the surrounding countryside after the 167 00:11:11.759 --> 00:11:18.120 Civil War and ye so so so that was Chicago, 168 00:11:18.200 --> 00:11:20.879 and it had a very very large you know, relevant 169 00:11:20.919 --> 00:11:25.480 to my book at a very large Norwegian population, and 170 00:11:25.679 --> 00:11:30.039 Laporte was this little city, you know, located not far 171 00:11:30.159 --> 00:11:35.200 from Chicago, you know, a small community with you know, 172 00:11:35.320 --> 00:11:39.879 a nice business district and a lot of handsome farms 173 00:11:39.960 --> 00:11:47.559 surrounding it, one of which, well, one of which ultimately 174 00:11:47.679 --> 00:11:53.960 became the residence of Belgunnis, although the house that be 175 00:11:54.480 --> 00:11:57.960 moved into it actually served as a brothel for the town. 176 00:11:58.919 --> 00:12:05.200 So you also talk about that the she's her name 177 00:12:05.279 --> 00:12:09.639 is Brinhild Paul's Dadder Storest and you say, they're not 178 00:12:09.799 --> 00:12:11.960 much known in her very early years, but she was 179 00:12:12.039 --> 00:12:16.480 born in eighteen fifty nine and she'd worked a farm. 180 00:12:16.639 --> 00:12:18.440 So tell us a little bit about her early life, 181 00:12:18.559 --> 00:12:25.039 what was characterized by and also the religion that she practiced, 182 00:12:25.080 --> 00:12:26.519 her in her family practice as well. 183 00:12:29.759 --> 00:12:34.200 Well, you know, as you say, I mean Belle. You know, 184 00:12:34.399 --> 00:12:38.080 very very little is known about her. She's obviously until 185 00:12:39.279 --> 00:12:46.720 her crimes, you know, we're discovered, completely obscure figure. She 186 00:12:47.120 --> 00:12:52.240 was the daughter of a poor sharecropper in the small 187 00:12:52.360 --> 00:12:58.039 Norwegian town of Celbu, and you know, from what we 188 00:12:58.200 --> 00:13:03.039 know about her, she did all this kind of arduous 189 00:13:03.240 --> 00:13:08.600 farm labor as a child. You know, she was a milkmaid. 190 00:13:08.720 --> 00:13:16.200 And you know, again, whatever sort of drudgery that young 191 00:13:16.320 --> 00:13:20.279 farm children have to engage in, you know she did. 192 00:13:21.440 --> 00:13:25.480 She was apparently, you know, a very very devout churchgoer. 193 00:13:25.840 --> 00:13:27.720 You know, the only thing we really know about her 194 00:13:28.519 --> 00:13:32.639 are the few documents that exist, baptismal records and so on. 195 00:13:35.480 --> 00:13:39.600 You know, once her crimes were discovered, there were all 196 00:13:39.720 --> 00:13:43.759 these stories that grew up about her early behavior. But 197 00:13:43.919 --> 00:13:47.320 it's very very hard to know exactly how accurate those 198 00:13:47.440 --> 00:13:50.360 things are. You know, a lot of urban legends, or 199 00:13:50.399 --> 00:13:54.360 I guess in her case, rural legends immediately spring up 200 00:13:54.960 --> 00:13:59.480 excuse me about her. So again it's a little bit 201 00:13:59.559 --> 00:14:02.799 frustrated when you're doing a book like this, how little 202 00:14:02.879 --> 00:14:08.320 information is available about you know, about the early lives 203 00:14:08.360 --> 00:14:11.240 of these people. But other than the fact that she 204 00:14:11.399 --> 00:14:15.080 led this very very hard scrabble existence as the daughter 205 00:14:15.200 --> 00:14:19.159 of this poor sharecropper, we don't know very much about 206 00:14:19.200 --> 00:14:20.159 her early life. 207 00:14:22.679 --> 00:14:25.320 You do talk about, though, that she has an opportunity 208 00:14:25.440 --> 00:14:28.480 to move to the US because of her sister, So 209 00:14:28.639 --> 00:14:32.240 tell us what those circumstances are, and a little bit 210 00:14:32.279 --> 00:14:35.759 about her actually coming. Talk about a name change. So 211 00:14:36.320 --> 00:14:38.480 what's her name now? And tell US a little bit 212 00:14:38.480 --> 00:14:41.360 about those circumstances that she comes to the US. 213 00:14:44.240 --> 00:14:48.080 Well, her sister, her older sister, had emigrated. There was actually, 214 00:14:49.000 --> 00:14:53.360 you know, a large influx of Norwegian immigrants in the 215 00:14:53.480 --> 00:14:57.320 late nineteenth century, something I guess that would make our 216 00:14:57.480 --> 00:15:01.360 current president very happy these he was talking about more 217 00:15:01.759 --> 00:15:07.159 immigrants from Norway. And uh so Belle's sister, uh, you know, 218 00:15:07.279 --> 00:15:09.440 had invited her to come live with her. And you know, 219 00:15:09.559 --> 00:15:13.039 Belle made the trans Atlantic crossing, well, Bryn Hill had 220 00:15:13.080 --> 00:15:15.480 made the Trains of Lana crossing. And when she did, 221 00:15:15.600 --> 00:15:21.000 she americanized her name and became Belle Peterson. Uh. You know. 222 00:15:21.200 --> 00:15:25.240 She went to work apparently as a domestic and a 223 00:15:25.360 --> 00:15:29.279 housemaid and took in laundry. Uh. You know, she came 224 00:15:29.320 --> 00:15:32.480 over here for the reasons that many immigrants do, you know, 225 00:15:33.240 --> 00:15:37.759 you know, to achieve the American dream. I mean, Bell was, 226 00:15:38.000 --> 00:15:41.600 according to the testimony of people who knew her, including 227 00:15:41.639 --> 00:15:45.519 her sister, you know, very very kind of money crazed 228 00:15:46.159 --> 00:15:50.039 and again, you know, having grown up under these very 229 00:15:50.159 --> 00:15:56.159 very very difficult, straightened, you know, indigen circumstances, she was 230 00:15:56.320 --> 00:15:59.960 very eager to you know, make a good life for herself. 231 00:16:00.440 --> 00:16:02.960 You know, in Chicago at that time, which had the 232 00:16:03.039 --> 00:16:06.720 first apartment stores. You know, it was you know, the 233 00:16:07.000 --> 00:16:10.919 impression you get with Belle was sort of she'd wander 234 00:16:11.080 --> 00:16:13.879 around and you know, she'd have her She was like 235 00:16:13.960 --> 00:16:16.960 a kid with her face pressed to the glass of 236 00:16:17.039 --> 00:16:22.639 a candy store. There are all these material allurements that 237 00:16:22.799 --> 00:16:27.200 she wanted to be able to indulge in. So making money, 238 00:16:27.960 --> 00:16:32.159 getting rich, you know, became a very single minded focus 239 00:16:32.240 --> 00:16:32.480 for her. 240 00:16:35.679 --> 00:16:39.279 You talk about soon enough she is married to a 241 00:16:39.440 --> 00:16:44.000 man named mad Sorenson, five years older than her. He's 242 00:16:44.039 --> 00:16:46.440 just a night watchman, and she's married at twenty four 243 00:16:46.519 --> 00:16:48.759 years old. You say she wore a black dress, which 244 00:16:48.840 --> 00:16:52.279 is very interesting. Now, tell us a little bit about 245 00:16:52.360 --> 00:16:56.039 this problem with conceiving and what this leads to for 246 00:16:56.399 --> 00:16:57.279 her and Mads. 247 00:16:59.159 --> 00:17:02.320 Well. I mean, one of the things about Belle, and 248 00:17:02.759 --> 00:17:07.640 one of the paradoxes of her character, is that she 249 00:17:08.359 --> 00:17:13.480 had these very very powerful maternal impulses and was very, 250 00:17:13.640 --> 00:17:19.839 very very desperate really to have children. She did end 251 00:17:20.039 --> 00:17:27.359 up having children, though again among the various mysteries surrounding 252 00:17:27.480 --> 00:17:34.200 her is the question of whether she gave birth to 253 00:17:34.359 --> 00:17:39.640 these children, you know, whether these children were acquired in 254 00:17:39.799 --> 00:17:44.599 other ways. The first child that she did raise was 255 00:17:44.680 --> 00:17:48.200 a foster daughter named Jenny Olson, who was an infant 256 00:17:48.359 --> 00:17:53.079 born to this couple that she was friendly with, and 257 00:17:53.200 --> 00:17:57.000 when the mother died in childbirth, Belle persuaded a father 258 00:17:57.160 --> 00:17:59.400 to turn over the raising of this little girl to her. 259 00:18:01.880 --> 00:18:07.720 You know. Again, Ultimately Bell had a number of other children, 260 00:18:08.920 --> 00:18:12.640 but again it's not clear. Even though she claimed she 261 00:18:12.759 --> 00:18:15.559 gave birth to some of them, evidence seemed to suggest 262 00:18:15.680 --> 00:18:21.720 otherwise that she had either gotten them from orphanages or 263 00:18:23.160 --> 00:18:26.519 you know, there were rumors that Bell herself had been 264 00:18:26.599 --> 00:18:29.000 what they used to call a baby farmer. Baby farmers 265 00:18:29.039 --> 00:18:32.000 were women who had taken the unwanted children of poor women, 266 00:18:33.119 --> 00:18:36.759 were the illegitimate children of women, and you know, and 267 00:18:37.720 --> 00:18:44.000 you know, they were kind of like makeshift orphanages. The 268 00:18:44.119 --> 00:18:46.920 baby farmer had taken these infants and suppose that they 269 00:18:47.079 --> 00:18:51.599 placed them in other households, although some very notorious baby 270 00:18:51.640 --> 00:18:57.359 farmers actually murdered the infants once they took them in anyway. So, 271 00:18:57.720 --> 00:19:00.119 but yes, that Bell was always very very desperate to 272 00:19:00.160 --> 00:19:00.599 be a mother. 273 00:19:04.000 --> 00:19:07.680 You talk about also that when her lost for money 274 00:19:08.160 --> 00:19:11.240 and success, this madge didn't make a lot of money 275 00:19:11.319 --> 00:19:14.039 fifteen dollars a week, but they did have enough money 276 00:19:14.079 --> 00:19:17.920 to purchase this little candy store. Tell us a little 277 00:19:17.960 --> 00:19:22.279 bit about that business venture and what happened in terms 278 00:19:22.359 --> 00:19:23.599 of mysterious fire. 279 00:19:26.160 --> 00:19:29.279 Yes, well, as you said, they purchased this little confectionery 280 00:19:29.400 --> 00:19:34.720 shop on a well traveled, you know, business street, but 281 00:19:34.839 --> 00:19:39.119 it didn't do very well, and then the candy store 282 00:19:40.359 --> 00:19:45.160 mysteriously burned down one day. Nobody was there at the 283 00:19:45.240 --> 00:19:51.240 time except bel her that you know, I guess Toddler daughter, 284 00:19:51.799 --> 00:19:59.640 Jenny Foster daughter, so you know, there was an investigation. 285 00:20:00.160 --> 00:20:04.559 Ultimately the fire was ruled to be accidental, and Belle 286 00:20:05.480 --> 00:20:09.599 and Mads collected on this insurance money and they purchased 287 00:20:10.559 --> 00:20:14.759 purchased the little house in a slightly more upscale area 288 00:20:14.960 --> 00:20:20.000 of Chicago, and then there was a fire in that house, 289 00:20:20.559 --> 00:20:27.279 you know. Again not unlike other female serial killers of 290 00:20:27.400 --> 00:20:34.440 her ilk, you know, Belle was very much into committing 291 00:20:34.559 --> 00:20:38.200 her crimes in order to collect the insurance money on them, 292 00:20:38.799 --> 00:20:41.079 and at least two of them, you know, were crimes 293 00:20:41.079 --> 00:20:46.960 of arson. Again not it's not unusual for serial killers 294 00:20:47.480 --> 00:20:51.799 to you know, to indulge in arson. And then of 295 00:20:52.000 --> 00:20:56.160 course her crimes escalated to homicide. 296 00:20:58.400 --> 00:21:01.759 You talk about homicide, you talk about taking. In between 297 00:21:01.799 --> 00:21:05.680 eighteen ninety six and eighteen ninety eight, a couple of years, 298 00:21:05.759 --> 00:21:09.200 they became parents of more than four children, and then 299 00:21:09.480 --> 00:21:13.079 as well, there was soon after two of those died, 300 00:21:13.759 --> 00:21:17.680 and there seemed to be no suspicion. But you talk 301 00:21:17.759 --> 00:21:24.960 about enter and tyro colitis and hydrophallus. So the things 302 00:21:25.000 --> 00:21:30.559 were attributed to sort of these mysterious ailments or these 303 00:21:30.680 --> 00:21:34.519 children dying. But that was a characteristic of some of 304 00:21:34.559 --> 00:21:36.200 the people in her care, wasn't it. 305 00:21:38.480 --> 00:21:44.880 Yeah. Again, you know, if it didn't turn out that 306 00:21:45.119 --> 00:21:50.079 Bell was a serial murderer, those deaths would not necessarily 307 00:21:50.240 --> 00:21:54.799 seem to be suspicious because you know, there was a 308 00:21:54.960 --> 00:21:59.559 very very high mortality infant mortality rate at that time, 309 00:22:00.359 --> 00:22:06.839 and you know, and then the quality of medical treatment 310 00:22:07.079 --> 00:22:12.839 was such you know that you know, sometimes diseases that 311 00:22:13.039 --> 00:22:16.319 now would be very easily curable would prove to be fatal. 312 00:22:17.000 --> 00:22:20.720 So again, we don't know whether those children died of 313 00:22:21.079 --> 00:22:24.839 natural causes or at the hands of Bell Gunnis because 314 00:22:24.920 --> 00:22:28.039 she decided there were too many mouths to feed. Again, 315 00:22:28.359 --> 00:22:32.160 very very character during the late nineteenth century, you know, 316 00:22:32.400 --> 00:22:37.759 just not that long before you know, Bell Gunnis was 317 00:22:38.079 --> 00:22:41.000 committing her atrocities. You know, there were a number of 318 00:22:41.200 --> 00:22:45.039 very very infamous female serial poisoners in this country. A 319 00:22:45.119 --> 00:22:49.160 woman named Sarah Jane Robinson, another woman named Lydia Sherman. 320 00:22:50.720 --> 00:22:55.839 You know, these who were women who killed a number 321 00:22:55.839 --> 00:22:59.720 of their own children, again, sometimes partly to collect on insurance, 322 00:23:00.759 --> 00:23:04.799 sometimes because again they felt, you know, the kids who 323 00:23:04.799 --> 00:23:08.759 were just a drain on their energies and finance. So 324 00:23:09.319 --> 00:23:14.039 you know, it's very very possible, again given bell psychopathic nature, 325 00:23:14.880 --> 00:23:20.119 that those infants died at her hands. But again at 326 00:23:20.160 --> 00:23:22.880 the same time, you know, it is also conceivable that 327 00:23:23.000 --> 00:23:25.240 they died of natural causes. We just don't know. 328 00:23:28.559 --> 00:23:32.920 You talk about interesting development early on in eighteen ninety seven, 329 00:23:33.000 --> 00:23:37.240 in October, when the couple was visited from a man 330 00:23:37.359 --> 00:23:42.160 from the Yukon Mining and Trading Corporation. Interesting that later 331 00:23:42.279 --> 00:23:45.440 we find out what a master con artist this woman is. 332 00:23:46.079 --> 00:23:53.200 Tell us about this mining and Trading corporation idea, Well. 333 00:23:53.079 --> 00:23:55.640 You know, that's something actually I'm very proud to have 334 00:23:55.839 --> 00:23:59.839 uncovered because well actually a researcher of mine uncovered it, 335 00:24:01.519 --> 00:24:04.319 you know, but nothing nobody's ever written about that or 336 00:24:04.559 --> 00:24:07.720 known about that. In regard to Bell. But you know, 337 00:24:07.839 --> 00:24:09.799 it's a you know, it's interesting about it, as it 338 00:24:09.839 --> 00:24:12.160 turned out to be a scam. You know, they were 339 00:24:12.200 --> 00:24:17.519 approached by representatives of this mining company and they were 340 00:24:18.000 --> 00:24:22.240 going to be offered shares in these gold mines in 341 00:24:22.400 --> 00:24:27.480 return for Mads going up to the Yukon and you know, 342 00:24:27.640 --> 00:24:31.200 and and working for the company. But again, the whole 343 00:24:31.400 --> 00:24:34.640 but but they you know, they had to put up 344 00:24:34.640 --> 00:24:37.720 a certain amount of money up front, supposedly to cover 345 00:24:37.880 --> 00:24:41.880 that you know, Mad, the costs of Mads transportation and 346 00:24:42.000 --> 00:24:45.160 equipment and so on and so forth. But in return 347 00:24:45.240 --> 00:24:47.279 for this investment, you know, they were going to be 348 00:24:47.319 --> 00:24:54.359 getting the shares and whatever whatever gold was ultimately discovered. 349 00:24:55.119 --> 00:24:57.240 But the whole thing turned out to be a complete scam, 350 00:24:57.359 --> 00:25:01.599 and Mads and Bell ended up suing the company. But 351 00:25:01.759 --> 00:25:05.599 it was an interesting episode in terms of what it 352 00:25:05.799 --> 00:25:13.720 revealed about you know, again Dell's lust for money, her 353 00:25:13.880 --> 00:25:16.519 greed for money. You know, the fact that she had 354 00:25:16.599 --> 00:25:20.000 no qualms, you know, about sending her husband often to 355 00:25:20.119 --> 00:25:24.599 the wilderness for a very extended period of time. You know, 356 00:25:24.759 --> 00:25:30.119 she really, as her own sister testified, you know, the 357 00:25:30.240 --> 00:25:35.119 only feelings she really had for her husband, even though 358 00:25:35.200 --> 00:25:37.319 she was married to him for an extended period of time, 359 00:25:37.359 --> 00:25:39.240 and you know he served as the father of a child, 360 00:25:39.640 --> 00:25:43.240 but he was it was just you know, when she 361 00:25:43.319 --> 00:25:46.480 looked at him, all she saw were potential dollar signs. 362 00:25:46.960 --> 00:25:49.680 You know, she had no human feeling for him. Again, 363 00:25:50.240 --> 00:25:54.519 as we all know, very very characteristic of the psychopathic personality. 364 00:25:57.480 --> 00:25:59.920 You talk about April tenth, another fire breaks out of 365 00:26:00.039 --> 00:26:05.759 their home, this one attributed to defective heating apparatus, and 366 00:26:06.680 --> 00:26:10.759 you talk about the life insurance policy and sort of 367 00:26:10.839 --> 00:26:14.359 the luck that she had with the timing on that 368 00:26:15.319 --> 00:26:17.880 tell us a little bit about what happens with Mads 369 00:26:18.319 --> 00:26:20.440 and this insurance and her behavior. 370 00:26:23.039 --> 00:26:28.960 Yeah, well, I wouldn't call the timing luck. Well, I mean, basically, 371 00:26:29.839 --> 00:26:32.200 you know, she had persuaded Mad's take out a life 372 00:26:32.240 --> 00:26:38.559 insurance policy, which was and then I forget the exact amount. 373 00:26:38.799 --> 00:26:41.720 I'm going to say two thousand dollars. You might remember 374 00:26:41.839 --> 00:26:45.079 better than I do, yep. But then she wanted him 375 00:26:45.119 --> 00:26:49.119 to take out another policy for more money, like thirty 376 00:26:49.160 --> 00:26:54.279 thousand dollars or whatever it was. So there was one day, 377 00:26:54.880 --> 00:26:56.839 you know, there was a day when the old insurance 378 00:26:56.920 --> 00:27:03.480 policy was set to expire and the new life insurance 379 00:27:03.599 --> 00:27:08.119 policy would go into effect. So there was one day, 380 00:27:09.559 --> 00:27:14.359 you know, on which both policies were in effect, and 381 00:27:15.240 --> 00:27:19.559 it just so happened that in that particular day, MADD's 382 00:27:19.799 --> 00:27:24.759 came home from work seemingly feeling as healthy as he 383 00:27:24.799 --> 00:27:28.160 had been when he left, and then within a very 384 00:27:28.240 --> 00:27:32.640 very short time suddenly got very very sick and died. 385 00:27:33.599 --> 00:27:38.880 So Belle ended up collecting on both insurance policies. So 386 00:27:39.200 --> 00:27:46.240 either that was totally fortuitous or as seems far more 387 00:27:46.440 --> 00:27:49.799 likely again given what subsequently came to light about. You know, 388 00:27:50.440 --> 00:27:51.720 she killed her first husband. 389 00:27:56.119 --> 00:27:59.359 You talk about, right after this windfall of money, she 390 00:28:00.119 --> 00:28:02.359 moves to a or buys a home that was a 391 00:28:02.440 --> 00:28:07.920 former bordello, and she adopts a different name. And yes, 392 00:28:09.240 --> 00:28:12.880 you talk about when they were married, Madge and Bella, 393 00:28:13.680 --> 00:28:17.039 they had taken in a border named Peter Gunnis. M 394 00:28:18.039 --> 00:28:20.160 tell us a little bit about this Peter Gunnis and 395 00:28:20.400 --> 00:28:23.480 his altered or stay. 396 00:28:23.279 --> 00:28:29.279 With Well, you know, we don't know a huge amount 397 00:28:29.279 --> 00:28:33.960 of details about Gunness. Peter Gunnis is stay with him. 398 00:28:33.960 --> 00:28:38.000 He was again apparently briefly a border with him when 399 00:28:38.039 --> 00:28:41.160 they lived in Chicago and had moved into that nicer 400 00:28:41.240 --> 00:28:45.079 house that they had purchased following the candy store fire. 401 00:28:45.720 --> 00:28:49.119