WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.360 --> 00:00:02.759 Get value. You can't argue with at Tesco with their 2 00:00:02.799 --> 00:00:05.639 amazing club card prices. Have the perfect night in with 3 00:00:05.679 --> 00:00:08.759 their finest frozen pizza meal deal. Get a finest frozen pizza, 4 00:00:08.919 --> 00:00:11.679 chips and ice cream all for six euro like our 5 00:00:11.679 --> 00:00:14.839 delicious spicy salami, hot honey and do you or Margarito 6 00:00:14.880 --> 00:00:18.039 wood fired pizzas served up with their crispy chunkie chips 7 00:00:18.239 --> 00:00:20.760 and ice cream like Sea Salt de Caramel or Pistachio 8 00:00:20.760 --> 00:00:24.640 for dessert. Can't argue with that. Shop in store or online. 9 00:00:24.679 --> 00:00:28.399 Tesco Every Little Helps available at most stores. Prices vary 10 00:00:28.440 --> 00:00:31.440 in express. 11 00:00:31.839 --> 00:00:38.960 Oh hey, okay, hello Hi. From the Ghost of Three 12 00:00:39.000 --> 00:00:42.359 Year's Future from twenty twenty one. I'm here with an 13 00:00:42.520 --> 00:00:48.439 encore of one of the funniest favorites episodes ever, Corvet Thetatology. 14 00:00:48.799 --> 00:00:52.799 Why because it's spooky but it's not at all too scary. 15 00:00:52.920 --> 00:00:55.719 And also I'm in a hotel in Fremont and early 16 00:00:55.759 --> 00:00:58.280 tomorrow morning, your pod mom Jarrett is going under the 17 00:00:58.359 --> 00:01:03.200 knife for knee surgery. A lot's going on. So here's 18 00:01:03.240 --> 00:01:06.319 Corvid the Anatology. You're gonna love it, Listen to it again, 19 00:01:06.400 --> 00:01:08.000 Send it to someone you love. Or to someone you 20 00:01:08.040 --> 00:01:10.280 barely know. Okay, oh, hy. 21 00:01:10.519 --> 00:01:13.799 Is that old guy sitting on a shabby sheet couch 22 00:01:13.920 --> 00:01:17.280 in Anthropology waiting for his daughter to try on pants 23 00:01:17.319 --> 00:01:18.400 that cost too much? 24 00:01:18.799 --> 00:01:19.040 Ali? 25 00:01:19.159 --> 00:01:23.120 Ward back for another episode of Ologies. A spooky episode 26 00:01:23.159 --> 00:01:26.959 of Ology is a scary episode. Okay, fine, But does 27 00:01:27.000 --> 00:01:30.480 it get gotha than the inky blue sheen of a 28 00:01:30.599 --> 00:01:33.519 crow in the shadows who also happens to be having 29 00:01:33.519 --> 00:01:37.560 a funeral for another crow. Nothing is more goth than that. Nothing, 30 00:01:38.079 --> 00:01:41.920 Not even a spider listening to Bauhaus on vinyl, a 31 00:01:42.000 --> 00:01:45.599 bat smoking a clove at a warehouse party is not 32 00:01:45.879 --> 00:01:48.920 as goth as a crow funeral. And I've been sitting 33 00:01:48.959 --> 00:01:52.079 on this episode since July. I've been waiting to air 34 00:01:52.120 --> 00:01:55.400 it this week. I've been just building with nausea. I'm 35 00:01:55.400 --> 00:02:00.519 so excited to talk about Corvid thanatology freakin' crow funerals. 36 00:02:00.920 --> 00:02:02.680 But first I will talk quickly as I tell you 37 00:02:02.719 --> 00:02:03.640 things that also matter. 38 00:02:03.719 --> 00:02:04.040 Okay. 39 00:02:04.079 --> 00:02:07.439 Thank you to patrons at patreon dot com, slash Ologies. 40 00:02:07.640 --> 00:02:11.240 Thanks to everyone for buying cool stuff at ologiesmerch dot com, 41 00:02:11.560 --> 00:02:15.879 and thanks for subscribing to and rating the podcast, especially 42 00:02:15.879 --> 00:02:18.800 for reviewing it, which helps get it seen by other people, 43 00:02:19.080 --> 00:02:22.960 and each week to prove that your reviews mean so much, 44 00:02:23.120 --> 00:02:25.680 I read you a fresh one, and this week I 45 00:02:25.800 --> 00:02:30.240 creeped on serious Beetles, who wrote, I have been experiencing 46 00:02:30.280 --> 00:02:33.000 an odd twilight zone effect or shortly after listening to 47 00:02:33.000 --> 00:02:35.000 one of your shows, a moment in my life was 48 00:02:35.039 --> 00:02:37.479 so much richer from a thing I learned there. For 49 00:02:37.520 --> 00:02:40.520 just one example, snails. I met a tiny pack of 50 00:02:40.560 --> 00:02:44.240 wet sidewalk snails. As I crouched intensely over their little 51 00:02:44.280 --> 00:02:48.639 googly eyes, I was overcome by an appreciation of their 52 00:02:48.680 --> 00:02:53.520 love darts, tiny hermaphroditic bodies, beauty products from their m 53 00:02:53.560 --> 00:02:58.520 word and French immigrant past so much I cried, Serious 54 00:02:58.520 --> 00:03:01.840 Beetle that rules, thank you for letting me creep your review. Okay, 55 00:03:02.120 --> 00:03:06.240 corved thanatology, what the fuck word? Crow funerals. Yes, you're 56 00:03:06.280 --> 00:03:09.159 about to listen to an hour long interview about the 57 00:03:09.240 --> 00:03:13.759 grieving behaviors of crows from one of my favorite alive 58 00:03:13.879 --> 00:03:18.520 scientists on the planet. It's so good, she's so good. Okay, 59 00:03:18.560 --> 00:03:21.879 So Corvid's quick background belong to a group of perching 60 00:03:21.960 --> 00:03:25.879 birds with a developed vocal organ. That's what makes a 61 00:03:25.919 --> 00:03:31.439 corbet sometimes these birds are called songbirds, but apparently ornithologists 62 00:03:31.560 --> 00:03:34.800 have gotten into like almost fistfights about the term songbirds. 63 00:03:35.280 --> 00:03:42.639 So which birds are Corbet's okay? They include crows, ravens, rooks, jackdaws, jays, magpies, 64 00:03:42.879 --> 00:03:46.439 tree pies, chuffs, and nutcrackers, which kind of sounds like 65 00:03:46.439 --> 00:03:49.520 an alice in Wonderland chest set, or a roll call 66 00:03:49.599 --> 00:03:53.719 of gnomes, perhaps a menu of local draft beers from Portland. 67 00:03:53.879 --> 00:03:57.360 But it's a real list. I just read verbatim just 68 00:03:57.400 --> 00:03:59.199 to make sure that I don't get any wrong and 69 00:03:59.280 --> 00:04:03.560 cause any more mythological fisticuffs. Anyway, we're talking about crows 70 00:04:03.919 --> 00:04:06.280 and how they die, so you're going to hear about 71 00:04:06.360 --> 00:04:12.199 why crows have this death laden reputation and some unsettling 72 00:04:12.479 --> 00:04:17.279 science mask facts. And we'll hear about desperate alarm calls 73 00:04:17.360 --> 00:04:21.079 and feeling like an outsider, and how brains work, and 74 00:04:21.279 --> 00:04:25.000 radioactive tracers and murderers but not the sad kind, and 75 00:04:25.279 --> 00:04:28.720 plague doctors and all kinds of dark goodness that will 76 00:04:28.720 --> 00:04:31.240 have you sitting on a park bench staring into the 77 00:04:31.279 --> 00:04:35.680 treetops with this new found fascination once you hear the 78 00:04:35.759 --> 00:04:41.560 bonkers tales of biologists and corvid banatologist Kayleie Swift. 79 00:05:00.120 --> 00:05:01.680 I'm so excited to talk to you. 80 00:05:02.720 --> 00:05:05.720 So here's this, there's your microphone. Here, here's mine. First 81 00:05:05.759 --> 00:05:07.959 thing that I always do is just ask people to 82 00:05:08.759 --> 00:05:10.759 pronounce their first last name, just to make sure that 83 00:05:10.800 --> 00:05:11.680 I say it right. 84 00:05:11.759 --> 00:05:14.600 Sure, Kaylee Swift, Okay, just checking. 85 00:05:15.600 --> 00:05:18.959 I believe he was pronounced though. I think it's doctor Kate. 86 00:05:24.920 --> 00:05:26.360 This is where I just lose my shit about it. 87 00:05:26.439 --> 00:05:28.439 I mean, how long have you been a doctor. 88 00:05:28.240 --> 00:05:30.160 Like like forty eight hours? 89 00:05:30.240 --> 00:05:33.560 Oh my god, No, maybe seventy two that since Friday 90 00:05:33.639 --> 00:05:34.920 night at nine thirty. 91 00:05:35.040 --> 00:05:39.439 Oh my god, tell me everything. It has been. 92 00:05:41.279 --> 00:05:46.560 A whirlwind sprint. I did two degrees and six years. 93 00:05:46.759 --> 00:05:50.360 Oh my god. So it was really fast. So doctor 94 00:05:50.480 --> 00:05:53.720 Kaylee Swift got her master's in science in animal behavior 95 00:05:53.839 --> 00:05:57.639 and neuro ethology. I think that's how the brain affects 96 00:05:57.680 --> 00:05:59.879 what animals do. I think that's what that means at 97 00:05:59.879 --> 00:06:03.399 the University of Washington in twenty fifteen, and then she 98 00:06:03.519 --> 00:06:07.040 launched straight into getting her PhD. She completed her research 99 00:06:07.240 --> 00:06:11.199 about crow death behaviors and just over three years she 100 00:06:11.439 --> 00:06:15.519 defended her PhD on the last night possible before the 101 00:06:15.639 --> 00:06:18.680 end of the quarter, like her dissertation was due by 102 00:06:18.839 --> 00:06:22.959 midnight that day. And this breakneck pace was partly because 103 00:06:23.040 --> 00:06:27.040 there was a postdoctorate position in Denali that started right after. 104 00:06:27.360 --> 00:06:29.000 She wanted to be able to hop over and do 105 00:06:29.120 --> 00:06:32.560 that work. Also, the first time she mentioned she was 106 00:06:32.639 --> 00:06:34.920 moving to Denali for a while, I asked if she 107 00:06:34.959 --> 00:06:37.079 had to get a lot of travel vaccines, and then 108 00:06:37.199 --> 00:06:39.839 I realized that Denali is a park in Alaska and 109 00:06:39.920 --> 00:06:43.839 not a small island in the malaria belt. Anyway, She's 110 00:06:44.000 --> 00:06:47.800 very smart and hard working, and she busted proverbial ass 111 00:06:47.839 --> 00:06:50.680 for that. PhD, You're not usually under the gun like that, Like, 112 00:06:51.160 --> 00:06:52.279 how'd you deal with it? 113 00:06:52.720 --> 00:06:53.800 I cried a lot. 114 00:06:55.600 --> 00:06:58.560 I yeah, I had a few moments where I was 115 00:06:58.639 --> 00:07:01.639 just like, oh, this is it, buzz So I did that. 116 00:07:02.399 --> 00:07:04.959 I reached out to my peers and said, I need 117 00:07:05.000 --> 00:07:07.079 you to text me and tell me I'm going to 118 00:07:07.160 --> 00:07:08.839 do this and everything's going to be okay. And they 119 00:07:08.879 --> 00:07:12.120 did it because they were wonderful, and I worked really hard. 120 00:07:12.199 --> 00:07:14.600 So it was kind of a combination of those three things. Okay, 121 00:07:14.639 --> 00:07:16.600 So now tell me what. 122 00:07:16.519 --> 00:07:19.519 It was about crows that made you so interested, Like, 123 00:07:19.680 --> 00:07:22.199 and when did you start really studying them. Did you 124 00:07:22.240 --> 00:07:24.279 always like sit in parks and like high school and 125 00:07:24.279 --> 00:07:26.560 stuff and just like gaze at crows or was there 126 00:07:26.600 --> 00:07:27.040 a moment? 127 00:07:27.560 --> 00:07:31.879 No, there was definitely a moment. So I, since I 128 00:07:31.959 --> 00:07:36.959 was a little kid, loved animals and always really gravitated 129 00:07:37.040 --> 00:07:38.399 towards science. 130 00:07:38.680 --> 00:07:41.079 I could stare at bugs all day. I know, I 131 00:07:41.160 --> 00:07:42.199 just thought they were so cool. 132 00:07:42.360 --> 00:07:42.839 I'm with you. 133 00:07:43.000 --> 00:07:45.600 Yeah, And I could look at pictures of bugs and 134 00:07:45.839 --> 00:07:49.240 books and read about them. But I wasn't you know, 135 00:07:49.279 --> 00:07:51.439 I wasn't like journaling as a little kid or taking 136 00:07:51.439 --> 00:07:54.160 fastidious notes. But then as I got older, you know, 137 00:07:54.199 --> 00:07:57.040 in high school, it was sort of like and but 138 00:07:57.120 --> 00:07:59.639 as I went into college, I had circled back around 139 00:07:59.680 --> 00:08:04.480 to wanting to do wildlife sciences or animal behavior more broadly. 140 00:08:04.560 --> 00:08:07.399 And I didn't really have a preference or an idea 141 00:08:07.439 --> 00:08:10.920 of what exactly that would look like. And I had 142 00:08:11.480 --> 00:08:14.959 in thinking about what kinds of questions really interested me. 143 00:08:15.480 --> 00:08:17.560 The answer I kept coming back to is this idea 144 00:08:17.639 --> 00:08:21.399 of the social intelligence hypothesis, which is this idea that 145 00:08:22.079 --> 00:08:25.279 being social and having these complex social lives may have 146 00:08:25.399 --> 00:08:28.079 really driven our cognitive advances. 147 00:08:28.160 --> 00:08:29.399 Because it's difficult to do that. 148 00:08:29.439 --> 00:08:32.120 It takes a lot of brain power and that question, 149 00:08:32.480 --> 00:08:35.480 and you know, there's lots of nuanced ways that you can. 150 00:08:35.600 --> 00:08:38.240 Look at that. That has always really captivated me. 151 00:08:38.279 --> 00:08:40.559 And so reading mind of the raven and being like, 152 00:08:40.960 --> 00:08:44.960 I like birds, I like animal behavior and cognition, and oh, 153 00:08:45.000 --> 00:08:47.240 look at this. There's this whole group of birds that 154 00:08:47.360 --> 00:08:51.679 now you know, science is collectively saying like, oh, wow, 155 00:08:52.279 --> 00:08:55.279 I guess we were super wrong about the capabilities of birds, 156 00:08:55.320 --> 00:08:57.080 Like look at what grows and ravens can do. 157 00:08:57.759 --> 00:09:00.120 Did they have to issue an apology to birds at 158 00:09:00.159 --> 00:09:04.559 some point? Like fuck, man, We're sorry, you got great brains. 159 00:09:04.799 --> 00:09:08.120 You're doing games over here. Like was there a moment 160 00:09:08.200 --> 00:09:11.399 in time culturally where we were like, We're so sorry birds. 161 00:09:12.279 --> 00:09:14.679 I don't know if that has happened, but if it hasn't, 162 00:09:14.679 --> 00:09:15.679 it really should. 163 00:09:15.840 --> 00:09:16.200 Okay. 164 00:09:16.320 --> 00:09:19.200 Yeah, And you know, one of the things I've experienced 165 00:09:19.240 --> 00:09:21.720 through my research is still a lot of people don't. 166 00:09:21.519 --> 00:09:22.279 Really realize that. 167 00:09:22.799 --> 00:09:25.159 And that's been one of the most rewarding things about 168 00:09:25.159 --> 00:09:28.440 doing my work is seeing people go, wow, I had 169 00:09:28.480 --> 00:09:30.919 no idea that they did this. That's so cool. I 170 00:09:31.120 --> 00:09:35.080 like crows more now. So that's been, like I said, 171 00:09:35.120 --> 00:09:38.879 just one of the most rewarding parts of the research. 172 00:09:38.559 --> 00:09:40.840 That I've done. Uh so, yeah. 173 00:09:40.879 --> 00:09:43.279 So the marriage of all of those things birds and 174 00:09:43.279 --> 00:09:47.360 intelligence and animal behavior is what led me to crows. 175 00:09:47.480 --> 00:09:52.480 And then, really serendipitously, my undergraduate advisor at the time 176 00:09:52.519 --> 00:09:55.320 I was going through this revelation happened to be working 177 00:09:55.440 --> 00:10:00.080 on the Facial Recognition publication with one John Mars. 178 00:10:00.600 --> 00:10:03.240 Who's like the dude when it comes to wearing creepy 179 00:10:03.240 --> 00:10:04.200 masks around crows. 180 00:10:04.360 --> 00:10:04.600 Yes. 181 00:10:04.759 --> 00:10:07.399 Yeah, it's like, you know a handful of crow experts 182 00:10:07.399 --> 00:10:09.360 in the United States and he is one of them, 183 00:10:09.399 --> 00:10:11.120 and so it was like, oh, this's. 184 00:10:10.879 --> 00:10:12.320 Worked out nicely, right. 185 00:10:13.000 --> 00:10:15.879 I mean, I feel like in your research, were you 186 00:10:16.120 --> 00:10:18.759 to google you, were someone to google you. 187 00:10:18.879 --> 00:10:20.200 I feel like photos of. 188 00:10:20.159 --> 00:10:24.559 You wearing a ghastly mask with like a Halloween mask 189 00:10:24.720 --> 00:10:28.240 that someone had left in their trunk for several years, 190 00:10:29.000 --> 00:10:33.080 but there's you holding a dead crow with the mask on. 191 00:10:35.000 --> 00:10:37.960 I have so many questions, so really quick. Doctor John 192 00:10:38.000 --> 00:10:41.279 marslaf Professor of Wildlife Science at the University of Washington, 193 00:10:41.519 --> 00:10:46.200 was Kayley's PhD advisor, and he's been studying crows for years. 194 00:10:46.320 --> 00:10:49.039 You may be familiar with his research in wearing certain 195 00:10:49.200 --> 00:10:53.879 masks around crows, which showed the hell, yes, they very 196 00:10:53.960 --> 00:10:58.120 much identify human faces, and they will squawk up a storm. 197 00:10:58.440 --> 00:11:02.240 This is technically called scolding when they see a foe, 198 00:11:02.720 --> 00:11:05.759 kind of like we see in human beings at a 199 00:11:05.759 --> 00:11:09.799 professional wrestling match or an episode of The Real Housewives, which, 200 00:11:09.919 --> 00:11:12.360 let's face it, those two scenarios are just two sides 201 00:11:12.399 --> 00:11:15.600 of the same coin. So, for example, if a researcher 202 00:11:15.759 --> 00:11:19.519 trapped a crow for observation wearing a certain mask, most 203 00:11:19.559 --> 00:11:22.799 of the local crows in the future will freak out 204 00:11:22.960 --> 00:11:26.360 if someone casually walks by them in the same mask. 205 00:11:27.039 --> 00:11:30.639 Human beings might also freak out that they didn't study 206 00:11:30.960 --> 00:11:35.039 but they started using this ghastly cro magnum mask and 207 00:11:35.240 --> 00:11:38.480 a Dick Cheney Halloween one, but ended up in the 208 00:11:38.600 --> 00:11:42.679 end employing some specially made masks later in the study, 209 00:11:42.720 --> 00:11:45.720 which I'll be honest are kind of creepier because they're 210 00:11:45.919 --> 00:11:49.600 like someone's face but just a little bit off. So 211 00:11:49.720 --> 00:11:54.200 imagine like Michael Myers with shoulder length hair, standing in 212 00:11:54.240 --> 00:11:59.840 a park and writing down everything you did on a clipboard. 213 00:12:00.200 --> 00:12:02.399 But before we get to all of that work specifically, 214 00:12:04.200 --> 00:12:07.120 let's throw this thing in reverse for a second. Okay, 215 00:12:07.159 --> 00:12:09.000 I'm gonna start basics. I'm going to go back a 216 00:12:09.000 --> 00:12:12.120 little bit. Difference between a crow and a raven, And 217 00:12:12.200 --> 00:12:13.600 why do you study crows and not ravens. 218 00:12:13.600 --> 00:12:15.759 I'm sorry, I don't know this. I think ravens are bigger. No, 219 00:12:15.879 --> 00:12:18.120 don't apologize at all. It's a really common question. And 220 00:12:18.720 --> 00:12:22.759 why would you know this unless you'd ask somebody earlier. So, 221 00:12:23.279 --> 00:12:26.720 crows and ravens are different species, but they're in the 222 00:12:26.720 --> 00:12:29.360 same genus, so like a lion and a tiger. Okay, 223 00:12:30.320 --> 00:12:33.639 but they're really superficially similar looking, so it's easy to 224 00:12:33.720 --> 00:12:37.279 mix them up so that the main things to look 225 00:12:37.320 --> 00:12:40.360 for is ravens are about two and a half times 226 00:12:40.399 --> 00:12:42.440 the size of a crow. Okay, So I always tell 227 00:12:42.480 --> 00:12:44.600 people if you're like out and you see a crow, 228 00:12:44.639 --> 00:12:48.080 and you go, that is the biggest bleebity bleep crow 229 00:12:48.159 --> 00:12:52.759 I've ever seen. It's probably because it's a raven in flight. 230 00:12:52.919 --> 00:12:55.159 The easiest way to tell them apart is crows have 231 00:12:55.240 --> 00:12:58.559 more sort of squared tails versus ravens have this really 232 00:12:58.600 --> 00:13:02.159 distinct wedd shaped tail. Oh, and then if you are 233 00:13:02.200 --> 00:13:04.440 close enough to see one or see a picture of one, 234 00:13:04.519 --> 00:13:07.559 you'll notice that the throat feathers on a raven are 235 00:13:07.600 --> 00:13:11.519 really textured like a beard versus crows have really smooth 236 00:13:11.559 --> 00:13:14.440 hair like throat feathers, and on a raven we call 237 00:13:14.480 --> 00:13:17.879 those special feathers hackles, and they articulate them and use 238 00:13:17.879 --> 00:13:21.480 them in a lot of visual behavioral displays. But that 239 00:13:21.559 --> 00:13:24.399 once you you know, get a look at a few photos, 240 00:13:24.559 --> 00:13:28.000 that feature becomes really easy to detect. So those are 241 00:13:28.039 --> 00:13:30.399 sort of the three big physical ones. Their voices are 242 00:13:30.440 --> 00:13:31.120 really different. 243 00:13:31.279 --> 00:13:32.440 How are their voices different? 244 00:13:33.080 --> 00:13:38.120 So crows do the classic you know caw and ravens 245 00:13:38.159 --> 00:13:45.080 have this much deeper, more hollow croak sound. Yeah, it's 246 00:13:45.080 --> 00:13:49.360 a very and ravens both both species make a huge 247 00:13:49.360 --> 00:13:53.200 diversity of really cool noises. But personally, I think the 248 00:13:53.279 --> 00:13:55.799 vocal repertoires of ravens are are cooler. 249 00:13:55.519 --> 00:13:57.399 Than the air for crows. Don't tell the crows. 250 00:13:57.440 --> 00:14:00.879 I said that crows are like, she just defended got 251 00:14:00.919 --> 00:14:04.200 our PhD and she's throwing us under the bus. Twitter, 252 00:14:06.879 --> 00:14:09.600 What about can ravens make voices? 253 00:14:09.799 --> 00:14:14.559 Crows, ravens and magpies are excellent excellent mimics. 254 00:14:14.879 --> 00:14:18.440 Yes, they're they're. 255 00:14:17.080 --> 00:14:21.639 Essentially parrots crazy not maybe not quite the in terms 256 00:14:21.720 --> 00:14:28.200 of the volume of their vocabulary, but their accuracy to 257 00:14:28.240 --> 00:14:30.480 the human voice outstanding. 258 00:14:30.600 --> 00:14:35.759 Crazy. Yeah, who is creepier or more goth closer Ravens? 259 00:14:37.360 --> 00:14:42.240 I would say ravens because they have more of a 260 00:14:42.399 --> 00:14:46.919 habit of plucking eyes out of living things. 261 00:14:47.919 --> 00:14:48.000 Go. 262 00:14:48.440 --> 00:14:50.440 Crows will do that too, but I think ravens have. 263 00:14:50.480 --> 00:14:51.399 More of that reputation. 264 00:14:51.639 --> 00:14:52.519 It's pretty hardcore. 265 00:14:52.879 --> 00:14:57.320 Yeah, well, you know that's skin is thick. Mammalian skin 266 00:14:57.480 --> 00:15:00.559 is thick. So if you're hungry, I mean you're gonna 267 00:15:00.720 --> 00:15:01.120 you're going to. 268 00:15:01.159 --> 00:15:03.799 Go for the easy part, get the good stuff. Yeah, 269 00:15:03.840 --> 00:15:08.879 that's very Marilyn Manson. Man, that is HALLOWEENI is all 270 00:15:08.879 --> 00:15:11.559 get out. So when Kayley got to graduate school, she 271 00:15:11.679 --> 00:15:17.159 started looking into projects that involved these complex, fascinating big 272 00:15:17.200 --> 00:15:17.840 bird brains. 273 00:15:18.320 --> 00:15:21.360 John had already started to do some studies with the 274 00:15:21.399 --> 00:15:23.960 functional imaging work that we do where we look at 275 00:15:23.960 --> 00:15:27.399 crow brains, and he had already been inspired doing. 276 00:15:27.159 --> 00:15:28.799 That, like, oh, it would be really cool if we. 277 00:15:28.759 --> 00:15:31.120 Would show them a dead crow, because humans for a 278 00:15:31.200 --> 00:15:34.279 long time have known that crows respond really strongly to 279 00:15:34.320 --> 00:15:37.000 their dead. This is that idea is not something that 280 00:15:37.039 --> 00:15:42.360 I contributed to humankind, And so he thought that that 281 00:15:42.440 --> 00:15:45.440 would be cool, U, But in order to do that, 282 00:15:45.480 --> 00:15:47.600 you really need to have this field component so that 283 00:15:47.639 --> 00:15:51.360 you can say, like, this is what they do in 284 00:15:51.399 --> 00:15:56.159 their normal environment, this is the external manifestation of their behavior, 285 00:15:56.919 --> 00:15:59.039 and then we can look inside their brain and then 286 00:15:59.080 --> 00:16:01.200 try and tell the whole story. 287 00:16:01.440 --> 00:16:05.639 So their research involves observing the verbs in their natural 288 00:16:05.639 --> 00:16:09.720 home externally from AFAR, and then after that they're like, hey, 289 00:16:10.120 --> 00:16:14.559 heypes Burbs, come take a quick science vacation with us 290 00:16:14.879 --> 00:16:17.480 just a few weeks. We'll look at your brain function 291 00:16:17.919 --> 00:16:21.320 before releasing you again into the wild to tell some 292 00:16:21.360 --> 00:16:24.360 pretty great alien abduction stories at your next crow party. 293 00:16:24.759 --> 00:16:27.720 And so we talked about that a lot, and the 294 00:16:27.799 --> 00:16:31.960 advantages of that project were one that it's awesome. Two, 295 00:16:32.240 --> 00:16:35.679 it was feasible financially because you know, I didn't need 296 00:16:35.759 --> 00:16:40.600 expensive tracking devices or tags or anything like that. So 297 00:16:40.639 --> 00:16:43.600 it was it was low cost, which was important because 298 00:16:43.639 --> 00:16:47.360 I had zero funding. I had gotten an amazing fellowship 299 00:16:47.399 --> 00:16:50.679 from NSF to support me personally through three years of 300 00:16:50.679 --> 00:16:53.559 graduate school, but it didn't include any research funds, and 301 00:16:53.639 --> 00:16:56.000 he didn't have any research funds for me. Those masks 302 00:16:56.039 --> 00:16:59.519 are free man well, so fortunately the masks had already 303 00:16:59.519 --> 00:17:04.519 been bought and secured before the previous facial recognition study. Yeah, 304 00:17:04.559 --> 00:17:06.359 so I'm just trying to make it work with like, 305 00:17:06.640 --> 00:17:08.079 what resources are already here? 306 00:17:08.839 --> 00:17:11.039 Where do those masks come from? I'm so sorry, such 307 00:17:11.039 --> 00:17:11.680 a dumb question. 308 00:17:11.839 --> 00:17:14.119 No, not a dumb question, because nobody knows the answers. 309 00:17:14.160 --> 00:17:18.359 They had costume makers come and take molds of actual 310 00:17:18.519 --> 00:17:22.200 people's faces. So I always tell people to be gentle 311 00:17:22.400 --> 00:17:25.960 when they talk about the masks because Linda and Vivian 312 00:17:26.319 --> 00:17:28.440 and Joe are all actually. 313 00:17:28.079 --> 00:17:33.319 Real people whoa yeah, which are not a scary in 314 00:17:33.359 --> 00:17:33.799 real life? 315 00:17:33.839 --> 00:17:36.720 I assure you, I'm sure one thousand percent. Okay, but 316 00:17:36.759 --> 00:17:39.240 that's good to know. And so you were like, I 317 00:17:39.279 --> 00:17:41.400 don't have a lot of funding. I have zero fundings. 318 00:17:41.680 --> 00:17:45.440 And so this idea that instead of tracking and tagging 319 00:17:45.599 --> 00:17:49.359 or killing and dissecting the animals, you're like, we can 320 00:17:50.000 --> 00:17:53.839 look at their brain activity using functional MRIs. 321 00:17:54.440 --> 00:17:59.920 So not MRIs, We use a process called FDG PET Okay. 322 00:18:00.319 --> 00:18:03.039 And the reason that we don't use an MRI is 323 00:18:03.079 --> 00:18:06.359 that you could not train a crow to go into 324 00:18:06.400 --> 00:18:13.240 an MRI and not have, you know, a meltdown. So 325 00:18:13.240 --> 00:18:15.400 they would just say, would all their brain activity would 326 00:18:15.400 --> 00:18:16.279 be panic. 327 00:18:16.640 --> 00:18:17.799 Yeah, that's a good point. 328 00:18:18.079 --> 00:18:20.400 So basically what we do is we capture crows in 329 00:18:20.440 --> 00:18:23.559 the wild and we have an aviary that's fit to 330 00:18:23.599 --> 00:18:27.680 house crows. The housing is acceptable for a couple of months, 331 00:18:27.799 --> 00:18:30.680 and we give them a few weeks to get acclimated 332 00:18:30.680 --> 00:18:32.599 to captivity and just kind of calm down a little bit. 333 00:18:33.079 --> 00:18:37.559 And then the night before we're ready to image a subject, 334 00:18:37.640 --> 00:18:40.119 we take it into the radiology room and it goes 335 00:18:40.240 --> 00:18:42.440 in a smaller cage and we give it overnight to 336 00:18:42.440 --> 00:18:46.559 acclimate to that, and then the morning that we're ready 337 00:18:46.559 --> 00:18:49.359 to image, we take the bird out and we inject 338 00:18:49.400 --> 00:18:53.640 it with something called FDG, which is a modified glucose 339 00:18:53.680 --> 00:18:56.200 molecule with a radioactive tracer attached to it. 340 00:18:56.359 --> 00:18:58.519 Oh my gosh, So this this is a pet scan 341 00:18:58.720 --> 00:18:59.880 like a cancer patient. 342 00:19:00.519 --> 00:19:01.960 It is exactly the same process. 343 00:19:01.960 --> 00:19:03.720 My dad had to get a pet scan, so and 344 00:19:04.039 --> 00:19:05.720 we had to tell him not to eat carbs for 345 00:19:05.839 --> 00:19:08.319 like a days before and he was like, this is bullshit. 346 00:19:08.480 --> 00:19:10.440 Yeah, and that's one of the reasons they have to 347 00:19:10.480 --> 00:19:12.519 go in overnight is so that then they don't get 348 00:19:12.559 --> 00:19:17.039 any food. Basically, the idea of this process is, so 349 00:19:17.079 --> 00:19:20.920 we give them this glucose injection. Your brain uses glucose, 350 00:19:21.359 --> 00:19:23.599 you know, as it works. Whatever part of your brain 351 00:19:23.680 --> 00:19:26.279 is working the hardest is going to use the most glucose. 352 00:19:26.960 --> 00:19:29.000 So once we give them this injection, we can show 353 00:19:29.039 --> 00:19:31.559 them something like a dead crow, or an empty room, 354 00:19:31.680 --> 00:19:34.160 or the face of a familiar threatening person or a 355 00:19:34.160 --> 00:19:37.519 familiar caring person, and whatever they're part of their brain 356 00:19:37.599 --> 00:19:39.960 is working, work and working to process that information is 357 00:19:39.960 --> 00:19:43.720 going to concentrate that glucose. And the reason I described 358 00:19:43.759 --> 00:19:47.200 it as a modified glucose molecule is that it's been 359 00:19:47.319 --> 00:19:51.000 changed such that the body can't metabolize it anymore, so 360 00:19:51.039 --> 00:19:54.559 it's just going to stick there. And then what happens 361 00:19:54.640 --> 00:19:57.519 is after that period where we've shown them the stimulus, 362 00:19:57.519 --> 00:19:59.599 which we only have about fifteen minutes or so to 363 00:19:59.640 --> 00:20:02.920 do that, we can anesthetize the bird and put it 364 00:20:02.960 --> 00:20:06.359 in the scanner. And the scanner, you know, joom jum junks, 365 00:20:06.400 --> 00:20:10.400 goes around and it detects where that tracer landed, and 366 00:20:10.400 --> 00:20:13.759 we have about a forty five minute window before it 367 00:20:14.200 --> 00:20:18.680 starts to degrade. And then once the scanner's done, we 368 00:20:18.720 --> 00:20:21.720 can take the bird out, you know, keep it while 369 00:20:21.720 --> 00:20:24.400 it wakes up and then it's free to go. 370 00:20:25.480 --> 00:20:26.279 Okay, bye. 371 00:20:27.440 --> 00:20:29.640 Are you showing them pictures of birds that they know 372 00:20:30.079 --> 00:20:32.519 so that it's familiar and they're like, that's my uncle. 373 00:20:33.359 --> 00:20:33.519 No. 374 00:20:33.839 --> 00:20:36.720 So that was one major caveat. With all of the 375 00:20:36.759 --> 00:20:39.400 research that I did. We always controlled to make sure 376 00:20:39.400 --> 00:20:43.480 that they were unfamiliar birds, okay. And with the pet images, 377 00:20:43.880 --> 00:20:46.599 we weren't showing them photographs. We were showing them actual 378 00:20:46.759 --> 00:20:49.640 taxidermaid crows, right yeah, and it was just like on 379 00:20:49.720 --> 00:20:50.960 a stool in front of the bird. 380 00:20:51.200 --> 00:20:51.839 Oh my gosh. 381 00:20:51.839 --> 00:20:54.759 So it'd be like, Okay, you're going to go to 382 00:20:54.839 --> 00:20:57.079 a hotel overnight. In the morning, we're going to take 383 00:20:57.079 --> 00:20:58.720 you to the doctor's office. We're going to give you 384 00:20:58.759 --> 00:21:02.599 some super weird soft drink. It has radio tracers in it, 385 00:21:03.000 --> 00:21:04.720 and then we're going to take you into a room 386 00:21:04.720 --> 00:21:07.359 with a mummified human being and then we're going to 387 00:21:07.440 --> 00:21:08.759 see what part of your brain lit up. 388 00:21:08.920 --> 00:21:11.279 Yeah, and so what parts of their. 389 00:21:11.160 --> 00:21:14.640 Brains would light up when it was another dead crow 390 00:21:14.839 --> 00:21:16.319 or just like a pencil. 391 00:21:17.039 --> 00:21:20.480 So I can't talk about that yet. Who I'm going 392 00:21:20.519 --> 00:21:23.279 to keep that close to the vest until I get 393 00:21:23.279 --> 00:21:26.480 it approved by my scientific peers to make sure everything 394 00:21:26.559 --> 00:21:27.839 is up to snuff. 395 00:21:28.039 --> 00:21:30.279 So she's not allowed to say for certain, but she 396 00:21:30.400 --> 00:21:32.559 did give me a clue that it's one of the 397 00:21:32.720 --> 00:21:36.880 three areas, perhaps the amygdala, which is an area associated 398 00:21:36.920 --> 00:21:40.839 with fear acquisition, or something called the NCL, which is 399 00:21:40.920 --> 00:21:45.440 essentially the Avian analog to our prefrontal cortex and it 400 00:21:45.480 --> 00:21:51.000 deals with higher cognitive tasks. Might also, however, be the hippocampus, 401 00:21:51.240 --> 00:21:55.119