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Speaker 1: H So where do we get the Bible from? Did

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you even read the cannons?

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Speaker 2: There is only one charge. You are in occult.

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Speaker 1: You're a gobbling the demon, a bull merchard you saw me.

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Speaker 2: I'm your dude.

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Speaker 1: Is this your person of the webs? I attended?

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Speaker 3: You can't take it?

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Speaker 4: So to your boys on your dude, plus one plus

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one equal free.

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Speaker 2: It comes out the doll the tree.

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Speaker 1: Why do you pray eat the dead people?

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Speaker 2: That's the traditions A man new heretic.

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Speaker 1: Wow, wow, mr dude, is this your person.

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Speaker 5: On a web?

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Speaker 6: Cha?

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Speaker 7: I need a I can't take it.

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Speaker 2: He's little.

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Speaker 1: To your boys, I'm your dude, andiic.

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Speaker 7: Justification with you.

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Speaker 5: I remember when Lofton was engaged in pushing all of

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these stories and especially the idea that there's going to

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be thousands and thousands of Roman Orthodox coming into the

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Roman Catholic Church in the near future. Well none of

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that happened, and rather the opposite happened. We've seen mass

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conversions out of Protestantism and out of Orthodox, out of

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Rome into Orthodoxy, and they are in kind of a

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delusion phase of acting like in gaslighting, that nobody's converted.

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This doesn't exist. It's made up. I remember William Albrecht

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said that there was no Orthodox discord. I didn't have it.

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It doesn't have have twelve thousand people in it. At

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the time it was five thousand. It was all made up,

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doesn't exist. We saw Ibarra not do very well against

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Ubi and his debate. In fact, on the very issues

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of the debate, he admitted, I don't have a sufficient

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answer for that question, and I ain't got one yet,

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didn't I have to get back to your own which

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was one of the topics of the debate, the papacy

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of Virgilius. So now we have a person claiming on

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Twitter who you got it won't come debate, that he

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no longer is Orthodox, he's converted to Rome. And then

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it turns out when people started asking him, were you

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actually Orthodox, he never replies, and eventually it says I

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never said I was your brother in Orthodoxy. I said

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I was your brother in Christ. It's very pious of him,

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but in actuality that's an admission that no, he never

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was Orthodox. But the tweet that is going viral ish

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many viral, two hundred thousand views. I no longer believe Orthodoxy,

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but you weren't Orthodox, you were an e inquir investigator.

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You didn't actually, as far as we can tell, become

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a cdech human. You weren't received into the church. And

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yet he puts up a post, just some random, probably

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twenty year old guy. Maybe he's what does he say

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he is? Zoomer? Oh, I was a Lutheran and I

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listened to Luigi a little bit and now decide I'm

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going to Rome. And then of course there was no

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evidence that he was ever Orthodox, and then he admits

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that he wasn't. And the Roman Catholics is saying, he

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doesn't owe anything to you. He doesn't owe anything to you,

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has nothing. It's nothing to do with owing, has nothing

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to do with the debt, has to do with whether

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or not you're telling the true truth or not. And no,

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you can't just it's just dishonest. But it's weird. I

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think in the gen Z like they don't care about

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this kind of stuff, like it's okay to just be dishonest,

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which is weird because they're hyper moral to but they

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don't really see any problem with pretending and presenting yourself

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as something that you're not. Many of them, for example,

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will claim that they are translators, that they're linguistic translators,

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no degree, no qualifications, They're using AI and they think

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that makes them a translator. They think that they are

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educated on topics because they watched YouTube videos and many

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of them don't even read books. So it's just a

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really weird era to be in when people have really

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no problem with a form of con artistry. Really, if

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you don't have qualifications, if you're not studying a subject,

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you don't front like you are on the internet. But unfortunately,

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one of the downsides of the Internet is that it

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gives everybody the ability to put up a persona that

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they have qualifications and that they know what they're talking about.

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And I mean, thank you. That's just I guess, part

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of the downside of the world of the internet. But

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here we are, so they're all saying, oh. And then

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the other thing that was funny was that he said, oh,

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I never actually listened to any of your content, Jay exactly.

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And then he says, you say dumb things. Well, I'd

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like for him to come defend his position, but he says, no,

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I won't debate. So this is the standard sort of

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just cowardice from people that don't have any actual arguments.

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I bet he was happy to virtue signal though that

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he wasn't a member of my audience. He actually says,

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I actually avoided your content. I watched it sometimes, but

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you said dumb stuff. What's the dumb stuff. I'd love

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to hear what you think was dumb. I love to

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hear a good argument from you as to why we

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should be Roman Catholic, especially given the craziness of Francis.

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But given that he basically lied and admits that he

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lied and says that, well, I wasn't really ever orthodox,

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but I'm no longer orthodox. Should we be surprised at

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any of this? I don't guess we should. It's just

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really I don't know. It reinforces that. I mean, he'll

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do well in Rome. He'll he'll go far in Rome

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with this early track record of deception and lying, and

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maybe he'll find home with his Skittles friends. I'm sure

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he has a lot of Skittles friends. That is probably

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that's people will always overlook, like their motivations for why

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people turn to something like Rome. I mean, sometimes people

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are genuinely looking into the intellectual issues, but in a

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lot of cases it may just be because they have

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a boyfriend, you know, maybe he has a boyfriend in Rome.

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Maybe he has a girlfriend in Rome, And those kind

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of motivations are far more overlooked than the kind of

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identifiers and indicators that we're talking about in the intellectual realm.

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And a lot of times the intellectual things are just

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sort of excuses that people make because really it's something else, right, girlfriend, boyfriend,

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homo erotic tryst, whatever fits the Roman system more appropriately.

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So we're going to open it up today. Originally I

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put Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, but I don't think anybody. I mean,

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last night it was the most pitiful show of Muslims

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I've ever seen. I mean, I couldn't believe that with me, God,

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Logic and Sam Shamun we had that low tier. I mean,

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it was just wild. I've kind of felt sorry for

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the guys calling in last night because some of them

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seem like just normal dudes. But just like with Rome

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and just like with Islam, it really seems like people

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are there's something just about these religions that appeal. I mean,

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they do both have some intellectual people, but there's something

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about these two religions that appeal to not very smart people.

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And I fully understand that it's not all about intellect.

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It's ultimately about you know, do we humble ourselves and

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submit ourselves to truth first and set aside our intellect

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and not let our intellect get in the way. I

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totally understand all that. But at the same time, it's

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like there is an element of intellect that is involved

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in this. And with all those guys that called in

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who were former quote Catholics who become Muslims. Isn't that

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interesting last night if you watch that long strain that

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we did. One of the commonalities that I see amongst

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the people who say leave Rome orly Orthodoxy and become

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Roman Catholic, or who leave Catholicism and become Muslim is

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they leave and become those things for really bad reasons,

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and they might appear to that person to be good reasons.

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And this is where logic and fallacies are so important.

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I mean, you can literally f up your life by

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not knowing basic fallacies. And there's some balance that we

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have to strike here because I'm not saying it's all intellect,

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obviously it's not. But there is an element of critical

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thinking and reasoning that you have to engage in or

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you're gonna get duped. You're gonna believe just stupid stuff

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for stupid reasons that you think are good reasons. Let

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me think of an example of you know, some of

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the common things that we hear between say a Roman

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Catholic or a sam Mormon, is how they feel when

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they prayed this or that Marian prayer. Identical argument that

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the Mormon makes when they talk about the whatever the

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Mormon version of burning in the bosom prayer the Mormon,

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you know, alter call whatever it is. They'll literally say

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something like, well, when I prayed the Rosary, I just

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had this overwhelming feeling of peace. I just had this

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I felt like Mary was speaking to me. I've literally

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heard multiple people, well guys and girls, say this is

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what convinced them of Catholicism over Orthodoxy. And I'm like,

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what would you say to a Mormon who says the

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exact same thing When I prayed the Mormon prayer and

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I felt the burning in my bosom?

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Speaker 8: What can't hear you?

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Speaker 5: Well, Jamie's saying, maybe they're being given drugs. Well, it

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might have been drugs back in the days of what

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maybe Joseph Smith figured out, you know, some kind of

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drug that he gave people that made him feel good

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or something. But this is a very common experience that

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Mormon missionaries have with people that they're trying to recruit

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in the mission field. Right, Mormon missionaries go out, they'll

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go door to door, and when they find a perspective convert,

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they will do the whole you know, prayer, burning in

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the bosom thing. And then if you feel something, which

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could be anything, right, could be uh, your emotions on

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the on the on the spot. It could be pizza

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that you ate last night, you know, giving you bubble guts.

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It could be a demon, you know, making you feel

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some some kind of way. It could be all kinds

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of things causing a feeling. And so that's why we

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cannot make our religious decisions, our life decisions on the

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basis of feelings. I mean, it could be all kinds

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of things. It's the same as like and even sometimes

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we can have a correct belief that we have bad

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reasons for. We always use example, you know, oh, why

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do you own bitcoin? A whole bitcoin? Oh well, I

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listened to my dreams. Bill Cosby came to me in

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a dream and he said, by the big coins and

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they went up. So therefore I can trust my dreams

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and I can listen to the spirit of Bill Cosby,

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and my dreams tell me to buy bitcoin and see

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bitcoin went up. So let's proof, Well, that bitcoin went

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up does not necessarily connect to your Bill Cosby bitcoin dream.

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So that would be a bad reason for believing in

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something that turned out to be true, that bitcoin would

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go up over time. Right, So you don't just need

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reasons that happened to be correlated with something true that happened,

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or you actually need good reasons, not just any old reasons.

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And I don't think this. I think this guy listed

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a few of his reasons, and shocker, he wasn't familiar

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with any of the argumentation that we do. I mean, already,

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this whole profile just screams like annoying virtue signaler. Anybody

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who puts the picture of Jesus as their profile picture

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and all this religious imagery as their proof, as the

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icons as their profile, they're almost always insufferable virtue signalers.

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It's just a kind of a weird delusion. And so

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he's Jay's talking about me on the stream right now,

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I'm getting spammed by diary he's freaking out right now

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because I'm actually talking about him. Only of reason I'm

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talking about your case is because it's a pattern example

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of the few instances that we've seen where people accept

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Rome and I'm trying to find your bad loft and level.

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They're literally loft in level reasonings I'm trying to find out.

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I thought he had a post that explained there are

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many reasons why, but I will always be your brother

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in Christ. It doesn't work like that, Like you don't

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get to be an acumenist. I guess in Rome you

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to being a cumenist, but that doesn't mean that it's

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consistent anyway. I don't even see his reasons for why

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he became Caligi over Orthodox. People are saying in the

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chat that elsewhere he explains that his reasons are just

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kind of like basic Michael Lofton level kind of stuff.

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And you'll notice in you know, in the Ubie debate,

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the debate over the papal stuff gets nuanced and really

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deep and really historical, and it's unfortunate that it is

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that way. I wish it wasn't a situation where there

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was you know, reading that was necessary and whatnot. But

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really the only reason that all that reading is necessary

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is that people don't pay attention to the obvious. And

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when I say the obvious, I mean if you had

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a basic introduction to the history of the Church in

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the first thousand years, say from Pelicon, or even from

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a Roman Catholic like de Vornik, you would note that

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sentidality collegiality is pretty much universally admitted. Rome admits this.

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Now the idea that the Church was governed in this

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Vatican one paper way is just no longer believed and

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admitted to be true by the Vatican itself. So it

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says we now have the Vatican admitting that this was

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an evolution in the Chiad and Alexandria documents. You would

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think that it would just kind of be obvious, And

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then you would think it would be obvious that when

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people see the insanity of what the the papacy does

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on almost a daily basis of post Vatican two, you

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would think they have discernment. But they don't. And the

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reason that we don't have discernment is because we are

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not number one close to God, because we would have

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discernment were we close to God, we would be able

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to see the true and the false. We would be

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praying and asking for the gift of discernment, which is

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one of the gifts of the spirit. According to Paul,

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we would be able to tell the truth from the false.

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We'd be able to discern the spirits. As John says

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in his letters, and as Paul talks about right just

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understanding and knowing the truth from the false spirits. John says,

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you have an anointing, and therefore you will know the

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true and the false. Well, people that are being duped

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by this stuff, that tells me that they don't have

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the anointing and they're lacking that gift of discernment. And

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I can also say from experience that I've made a

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lot of these same mistakes. So I'm not trying to

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be mean or rude to people that are making them

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the same mistakes I did. But you'll notice that these

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people are not interested in hearing or listening to anyone else.

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It's odd to me that people who make this decision,

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and by the way, it's not common. It's actually pretty rare,

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I would say, And you know this because the Rumancalics

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will trumpet this all over the place. Right, They didn't

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even bother to look into whether this guy actually was Orthodox.

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As soon as somebody says on the internet, like the

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sock puppets of you Know twenty eighteen claiming that Lofton

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was mass converting people to roam from Orthodoxy, nobody actually

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checks into these They just run with the claims. Then

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when you when you actually dig into it, well, he

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wasn't actually Orthodox, he was just e inquiring. Yeah, but

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that doesn't mean you're Orthodox with you if you e inquire.

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But everybody's under this delusion that you can kind of

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just make yourself be whatever you want on the internet

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and then everybody should just accept it. All the Roman

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Catholics in the comments that are replying to me on

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his posts, he doesn't owe you anything. He doesn't have

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to defend himself to you. He just owe you. There's

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nothing to do with own with whether or not you're

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telling the truth or not. And if I was genuinely

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unclear on this topic, wouldn't you want to go to

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the people who are known to be the top defenders

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or debaters on that subject. And so, in other words,

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they're making choices not based on like who actually has

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good arguments, who actually has the best apologetic defense and critique.

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You know, he says in his comments, I don't listen

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to your stuff. I don't really care about you say

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dumb stuff like no examples of it, just some kind

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of lame, low tier jab But no, but they don't

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actually go to the people literally known for being like

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the top debaters. Even if you disagreed, wouldn't you want

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to know what the top debaters in this or that

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field say? And he said, well, I listened to elite

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Luigi for a few months. Now. I'm not dissing Luigi.

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Luigi's a great debater, but I mean, Luigi is not

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familiar with all the pre Vatican two post Vatican two

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dogmatic contradiction material. Maybe he will be eventually. I'm not sure.

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I'm not dissing Luigi at all. But you know, Luigi's

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done really well in his two debates. But luigis is

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also a fairly new convert. Why would you hang everything

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supposedly on Luigi? And now, oh, he's only fourteen years old.

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I don't know people's age. People are publicly saying all

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kinds of stuff, and the whole Roman Catholic world is

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you know, two hundred thousand people now are looking at

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this tweet as if this is some sort of like

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we gotcha, we could have finally owned the Ortho bros.

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Like this is some giant win for all the Roman

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Catholic world, even if he is a fourteen or fifty

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year old dude. That's even worse for the Roman Catholics

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for touting some fourteen year old guy who doesn't know

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the arguments, who hasn't studied this stuff, as if that's

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like a win against the Orthodox. This is all so ridiculous,

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like everything about all of this stuff online, with all

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of this domain and people who pretend to be like

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it's just so ridiculous. I mean, half of the Internet

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right now, half a freaking X thinks drones are aliens.

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This is how stupid everyone is. There's literally I just

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send a message to Tristan like it's literally a drone

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that crashed. People are you can see that it's a

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drone and like people think that this is aliens. I mean,

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I don't know what to say. I mean, people are

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just dumb, dude, They're just totally out to lunch. They

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don't have any discernment. I mean, did anyone hear the

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last night's debate? I mean of the donation sound is

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too loud. Let me fix that alert box. It's supposed

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to be pretty low, so maybe maybe that's better now.

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Half the time this sound resets the on this computer,

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and then I never know what's going on with the

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sound settings. So yep, of course the input volume is

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all the way down in the alert box. Music is

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all the way up as usual, so that should be better.

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Maybe you can hear me better now. I don't know

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00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:28,319
why it does that. Just Mac always resets. Oh, I

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00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:29,920
know why it is if I go on I know

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what it is. When I go on streamly Ardyard. Stream

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Yard has the auto volume setting, so because God Logic

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does everything on stream Yard, whenever I go on those shows,

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it resets my internal setting because that's stupid estra. I

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hate stream Yard. I don't understand why everybody uses the

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stream yards. It's so annoying. But that's why it always

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does this. Anytime I go on a stream yard stream

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it resets on my audio crap automatically. You can't stop it.

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If you try to change it in the midst of

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a stream Yard st knocks it back down to like zero.

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It's so stupid anyway, and stream Yard tries to make

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you sign in from your Facebook. I mean, dude, who

351
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is even using Facebook? What kind of boomer crap is

352
00:23:12,599 --> 00:23:18,359
this stream yard? Nobody uses Facebook? Face boomer maybe sign

353
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in with Facebook? Is that for uncles uncle's roadster stream?

354
00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:29,599
I mean, come on, who what Facebook people are streaming

355
00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:32,799
anyway except your uncle's roadster stream?

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Speaker 3: D six engine to nerve, I'm a live stream working

357
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on my chopper support Israel and Mud.

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Speaker 5: Now, somebody sent me three fat super chats here Jen

359
00:23:49,759 --> 00:23:51,480
Lamp fifty dollars, and then we're going to open it

360
00:23:51,559 --> 00:23:54,359
up to debate here in a second. Thank you Enigo

361
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Montoya for your great work. I love you and Jamie's stuff.

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00:23:58,039 --> 00:24:00,640
God bless you. Thank you, Jen Lamp fifty dollars. Again,

363
00:24:01,039 --> 00:24:03,599
here's another part of this donation, and you go buy

364
00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:07,680
you thank you for everything. But I'm curious what your

365
00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:11,359
thoughts are on the Voynash manuscript. Also, can you do

366
00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:16,119
a weekly Billy Corson check in? Well, Billy cart If

367
00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:18,799
I checked in every week on Billy Corson, he threatened

368
00:24:18,839 --> 00:24:21,359
to sue me. So I'm too scared. Now I gotta

369
00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:24,799
I gotta run. I'm scared. Remember when Lofton threatened assuming

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you guys remember the lawsuit, because I said that there

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was soccer accounts that are saying that Lofton was the

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greatest apologists ever, which literally there was like the soccer

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accounts were saying I converted from Orthodoxy to Rome because

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of the beautiful, brilliant work of the greatest apologists of

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00:24:40,599 --> 00:24:42,759
all time, Michael loft It was just so ridiculous and

376
00:24:42,799 --> 00:24:46,960
obviously fake sock accounts that were just created. He's a dog,

377
00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:50,039
you know, a top talking about lawyer by normal Sue.

378
00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:51,680
I got the email where he threatens to assume me.

379
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By the way, Jen lamp here's another donation. Oh, the

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Voyage Manuscript. I mean, the only thing I remember reading

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about that is the chapter in g Hancock's book, like

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00:25:03,039 --> 00:25:11,880
ten years ago. What's it called? I forget the everybody's

383
00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:14,519
familiar with this Graham Hancock, but not the one about

384
00:25:14,559 --> 00:25:16,160
the Ark of the Covenant, the other one about the

385
00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:19,880
Pyramids and the lay lines and all that, and I just,

386
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:22,720
I mean, it's interesting. I don't know what the real

387
00:25:22,759 --> 00:25:25,960
story about the Voyenans Manuscript is, but I think a

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00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:30,039
lot of that ancient mystical, you know, civilization stuff is

389
00:25:30,079 --> 00:25:33,400
really fascinating. But once, like one thing, you realize that

390
00:25:33,759 --> 00:25:35,039
if you start to read about a bunch of that

391
00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:38,119
is like there's just really no conclusive any you can

392
00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:41,200
never get anything conclusive about that. It's kind of like

393
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:45,799
all these so called UFO videos. It's like, what is

394
00:25:45,799 --> 00:25:48,279
this blurry light? I don't know and you can never

395
00:25:48,599 --> 00:25:50,319
figure it out, you know what I mean? What's this

396
00:25:50,519 --> 00:25:54,680
blurry creature? Who is that bigfoot? How come it's always blurry?

397
00:25:54,759 --> 00:25:57,319
Like you can never so it never goes anywhere. So

398
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I don't I haven't thought about the Voyeness manuscript maybe

399
00:26:00,519 --> 00:26:04,480
ten years, but it is interesting. Jen Lamb says, for

400
00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:09,200
fifty dollars, sorry, here's another donation for my atonement. Your atonement.

401
00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:11,960
You don't have to atone. To me, you're thinking of

402
00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:14,920
the papal system. I'm catching up on all your videos.

403
00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:16,839
I can honestly say that people just don't want to

404
00:26:16,839 --> 00:26:19,680
hear the truth. I've tried turning even my friends onto

405
00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:23,599
your material and they can't take it. That's what I'm

406
00:26:23,599 --> 00:26:27,519
talking about. We're well, I mean, I guess that means

407
00:26:27,519 --> 00:26:30,359
we're hardcore over here. People just can't take it. They

408
00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:36,079
just can't take it. I hope we get some oh,

409
00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:38,440
he says, I've learned my theology from a lot of

410
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:42,720
different theological arguments. Okay, I'm about ready to just block this, dude.

411
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This is a waste of everybody's time. And none of

412
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:46,680
these people are ever gonna come to debate. We know

413
00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:50,160
that already. They never do. I mean, good grief, dude,

414
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:53,799
did anybody here last night's stream? It was just on

415
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:58,599
real Whenever you think like you've heard the worst, like

416
00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:03,400
the can always come through to top everybody in just

417
00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:09,480
pitiful argumentation. And it's just sad man. Because and by

418
00:27:09,519 --> 00:27:12,480
the way, it's what we're going to be contending with

419
00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:17,160
in the future is not Frank and his Skittles cult. Okay,

420
00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:21,640
that's dying out. And don't believe these idiot Roman Catholics

421
00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:25,279
who act like it's growing. Frank's Skittles cult is dying out.

422
00:27:25,519 --> 00:27:30,480
Where we're going to be dealing with is Islam. That's

423
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:33,839
what's coming. A few months ago, when Jamie and I

424
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:35,839
drove to Las Vegas, which was a huge mistake to

425
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:38,119
drive the Las Vegas by the way, what did I

426
00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:41,160
see all across the country that I've never seen before,

427
00:27:41,559 --> 00:27:46,279
even on Indian reservations, mosques, Indian reservations now have mosques

428
00:27:46,319 --> 00:27:50,880
built on them, and the Tate sphere and all these

429
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:54,200
goobers and the Mohammed hjabsphere. They're all part of this

430
00:27:54,279 --> 00:28:02,319
push to convert this country to the idiot religion of Islam,

431
00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:06,680
and the dumber everybody gets, the more likely people will

432
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be to convert to that. Gazoro ten dollars? Will you

433
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:14,200
ever look into debating Needgod dot net? Is that that evangelical,

434
00:28:14,319 --> 00:28:19,079
goofy guy that Kyle tried to debate? I mean, anybody

435
00:28:19,079 --> 00:28:20,920
can hop on these streams and debate if they want

436
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:23,400
to at any time. It's always open for him. I

437
00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:25,720
don't know if I would even I mean, because I

438
00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:27,319
can already tell you what's gonna happen, Like I'm gonna

439
00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:31,799
be really, you know, serious and focused and make a

440
00:28:31,839 --> 00:28:34,920
bunch of arguments, and it's going to turn into I'll

441
00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:38,839
say something and then his soft evangelical you know, Skittle's

442
00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:41,279
heart will be hurt, and then it'll turn into how

443
00:28:41,319 --> 00:28:43,920
I'm a bad person and I'm mean all this nonsense.

444
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So I don't even know if it's worth it. Blood

445
00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:48,759
du Boy twenty dollars. Did you see Tim Gordon's new

446
00:28:48,839 --> 00:28:51,720
video about why he thinks orthodoxy fails. Actually, if we

447
00:28:51,759 --> 00:28:54,279
didn't get many people popping into the Q and A here,

448
00:28:54,319 --> 00:28:57,400
I was actually going to respond to that today. I

449
00:28:57,519 --> 00:29:00,519
might pop over there and check out of that here

450
00:29:00,519 --> 00:29:01,519
in a minute. By the way, if you want to

451
00:29:01,519 --> 00:29:04,279
follow me on X, be sure and follow me right here.

452
00:29:05,599 --> 00:29:08,000
But I mean, if that guy's a fourteen year old dude,

453
00:29:08,039 --> 00:29:09,359
I don't know if he is. But if he is,

454
00:29:09,359 --> 00:29:12,480
isn't that like ridiculous? The whole Roman Catholic world's like

455
00:29:12,519 --> 00:29:15,599
tweeting this kid as if this is like some kind

456
00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:18,279
of big win, because like he spent a couple of

457
00:29:18,319 --> 00:29:22,720
months listening to Luigi and Orthodox Kyle, but and then

458
00:29:22,759 --> 00:29:28,759
he chose Rome. I mean, come on, uh, Kyle already

459
00:29:28,799 --> 00:29:31,559
talked to need God dot net and the guy didn't listen. Yeah,

460
00:29:31,599 --> 00:29:33,680
I remember that debate when that happened a while back.

461
00:29:34,119 --> 00:29:37,960
It was a kind of a goofy debate. Let's see

462
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:41,559
where is how long was Tim's stream? I want to

463
00:29:41,599 --> 00:29:42,720
open it up. I don't know if we want to.

464
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:45,400
I don't know if I want to spend Did you

465
00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:50,720
do a like a two hour stream on orthodoxy? Why

466
00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:55,400
orthodoxy fails? Let's see it. What's Part one, Welcome to

467
00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:58,599
rules for retrogrades. I've not seen it yet, but what

468
00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:01,079
I've heard is everybody says that it's like just like

469
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:06,480
loft in tier like low tier arguments, which doesn't surprise me,

470
00:30:06,799 --> 00:30:09,000
not because Tim's dumb, but if you talk to Tim,

471
00:30:09,039 --> 00:30:11,759
and if you listen to Tim, he'll always tell you, like,

472
00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:14,039
I don't know that theology in the Church history that well,

473
00:30:14,559 --> 00:30:18,960
he'll just say straight up, all I study is aristotomism.

474
00:30:20,319 --> 00:30:23,920
So it's not surprising to me that if he were

475
00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:26,440
to say why he's not Orthodox, it would be kind

476
00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:30,599
of the pop sphere stuff. So it looks like there's

477
00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:33,440
just two videos thirty minutes.

478
00:30:33,519 --> 00:30:34,799
Speaker 9: Ye help.

479
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:38,720
Speaker 5: But I mean, I mean I saw a couple of

480
00:30:38,759 --> 00:30:41,400
the quote minds that Tim put up, and they were like,

481
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:44,799
come on, this is like this is weak tier stuff

482
00:30:44,799 --> 00:30:49,839
that doesn't prove Vatican One. So basically, as you might imagine,

483
00:30:50,759 --> 00:30:52,920
as many Roman Catholics do, they just quote mind a

484
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:55,279
bunch of things about Rome in the first thousand years,

485
00:30:55,359 --> 00:30:57,319
and then they read into that Vatican One when none

486
00:30:57,319 --> 00:31:00,839
of those quotes actually address or prove Vatican one claims,

487
00:31:01,519 --> 00:31:07,759
and they don't deal with the problems to the Vatican

488
00:31:07,799 --> 00:31:10,839
one claims in the first thousand years, or the contradictions

489
00:31:11,319 --> 00:31:14,519
involved in the claims of the papacy quote never airing,

490
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:19,640
never defecting, never, you know, failing to preserve the faith

491
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:23,039
aka as Ubi brings up in the debate, Well, you

492
00:31:23,079 --> 00:31:26,720
have one pope deposing and excommunicating the previous pope in

493
00:31:26,759 --> 00:31:31,119
the case of Vigilius. So did Rome air and defect

494
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:35,400
when the previous pope was condemned or was Virgilius wrong

495
00:31:35,519 --> 00:31:39,440
in condemning his predecessor? It was the very thing that

496
00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:44,480
Ubi asks a bar in the debate, and Eric said,

497
00:31:44,559 --> 00:31:47,640
I don't got good intro to and uh, I don't

498
00:31:47,759 --> 00:31:53,759
have to give back to your own debate voice of reason. Bro,

499
00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:57,240
all these people that everybody's asking, like I've already asked

500
00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:00,920
all these people debate, he just ignored it. And boys,

501
00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:04,759
the reason already debated. Luisian lost. So and by the way,

502
00:32:04,759 --> 00:32:07,000
all these people can come to this stream if they want,

503
00:32:07,079 --> 00:32:09,400
really want a debate, So why don't they come and

504
00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:10,880
to hop in my stream they can have all the

505
00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:14,359
time they want. All right, let's open it up to

506
00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:17,759
anybody who disagrees. If we don't get I might play

507
00:32:17,799 --> 00:32:19,680
some of this Tim stuff here and see what his

508
00:32:19,759 --> 00:32:23,680
arguments against Orthodoxy Warrior, we'll respond to them. Low Pan

509
00:32:23,799 --> 00:32:26,240
says for ten dollars. This is off topic, but check

510
00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:29,720
out special Interest, the State and the Anglo American Alliance.

511
00:32:30,559 --> 00:32:32,880
It is a ruttlish publication. Yeah. Actually I put that

512
00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:35,039
on my two gif book list. I think thank you

513
00:32:35,079 --> 00:32:37,640
for that. That was probably you that recommended that. Low

514
00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:41,920
Pan appreciate it. An emotional appeal. Tim Gordon one dollars. Tim,

515
00:32:42,039 --> 00:32:44,119
No rigor Gordon needs to be put to rest with

516
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:46,799
these bad arguments. I'm tired of all his misleading presentation.

517
00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:49,480
Well we'll look at some of these then and see

518
00:32:49,519 --> 00:32:51,279
where he went with it. I guess I do need

519
00:32:51,319 --> 00:32:54,160
to respond to it. Frankish Melkite five dollars, blessings. Jay.

520
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:58,480
I had a question about Orthodoxy and your understanding of imputation.

521
00:32:59,039 --> 00:33:00,599
You had a debate with an event Jelica one time.

522
00:33:00,599 --> 00:33:03,599
It was arguing that Romans four said that it was imputation,

523
00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:06,119
and you said, there is a kind of imputation, but

524
00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:09,240
in an Orthodox sense. Yeah, in the Orthodox view, there's

525
00:33:09,279 --> 00:33:12,000
no such thing as a purely legal standing that's not

526
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:15,720
based in ontological reality. In other words, you couldn't be

527
00:33:16,599 --> 00:33:20,720
legally righteous with an imputed covering of righteousness while you

528
00:33:20,759 --> 00:33:24,680
are in actual reality quote, filthy, rags and wicked. That

529
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:27,480
would make God a liar. So anytime there is a

530
00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:31,039
pronunciation of you being righteous, it is because you are

531
00:33:31,039 --> 00:33:35,680
in fact righteous. That simple and Protestanism had to have

532
00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:41,200
nominalism be the case to be the case philosophically for

533
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:44,799
there to be a divorce between the pronunciation of being

534
00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:48,400
righteous and the actual ontological status of being righteous. Literally,

535
00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:51,240
Protestantism solo fid a doctrine is built on that, and

536
00:33:51,279 --> 00:33:54,680
if that's not true, then that doctrine falls apart. And

537
00:33:54,759 --> 00:33:57,400
it also is a historical because nobody in the ancient

538
00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:00,880
medieval world was a nominalist, the tel nominalism in the

539
00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:03,279
Middle Ages, so they did not and could not have

540
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:11,639
conceived of a purely legal, fictional imputational righteous status that

541
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:15,519
does not correspond to actually ontologically being righteous aka having

542
00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:19,400
the Divine life in you dose Vader, fifteen dollars, do

543
00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:24,000
you intend to drop Vatican two and the related documents

544
00:34:24,039 --> 00:34:26,639
to disprove Sam schimun I would be down to call

545
00:34:26,679 --> 00:34:29,360
in and tell him about Vatican two. Well, if we

546
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:32,840
do that, roundtable. Obviously, I'll be bringing up all those documents. Sure,

547
00:34:33,639 --> 00:34:36,239
I don't know to what degree Sam Shimun is familiar

548
00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:40,199
with those documents. But I don't think Sam's idea is

549
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:44,400
to have him and Allbrech versus me and Ubi. Sam

550
00:34:44,559 --> 00:34:48,440
claims that it's going to be a roundtable of me

551
00:34:48,559 --> 00:34:53,400
and Ubi and somebody and yah See and Albrecht or something.

552
00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:59,480
I think that's what Sam has in money, Robney five dollars. Well,

553
00:34:59,559 --> 00:35:02,079
are you tried about Christian Christianity and the Christian herishies

554
00:35:02,079 --> 00:35:04,000
of Syria after the takeover? I mean, I just shared

555
00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:07,679
Kovork Elmasian's video on that that followed John White for

556
00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:10,719
shared I've followed Kovork's stuff off and on. I did

557
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:14,360
actually realized he was Christian or that his family was.

558
00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:17,199
Maybe he isn't. I don't know, but I mean, I

559
00:35:17,199 --> 00:35:20,400
don't I don't know what to say about. I mean,

560
00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:23,000
I've been talking, we've been talking about Syria and the

561
00:35:23,079 --> 00:35:27,280
CIA's operations in Syria and all of that geopolitically, going

562
00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:29,159
back to when I was writing for twenty first Century

563
00:35:29,159 --> 00:35:33,519
a while with Patrick Henningson in twenty fourteen. So, I mean,

564
00:35:33,519 --> 00:35:35,920
I don't know what else what what do you want

565
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:40,199
me to say? Like, yeah, the CIA and the State

566
00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:44,000
of Israel support things like isis of course, duh. I

567
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:46,760
mean we've been talking about that for years, over a decade.

568
00:35:47,679 --> 00:35:53,039
So where the apology is for like, you know, me

569
00:35:53,199 --> 00:35:54,719
talking about this or other people said it was a

570
00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:57,440
crazy conspiracy theorist for talking about this since twenty fourteen

571
00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:00,199
Aqi Lara's five dollars. I'm not trying to be I'm

572
00:36:00,199 --> 00:36:03,679
not trying to be insensitive to you know, Christians in Syria,

573
00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:08,000
but like, what what are we supposed to do? Like

574
00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:10,519
you can only go so far on YouTube. I mean,

575
00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:14,199
I don't know, I don't know what the answer is.

576
00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:22,559
Maybe the answer is to defeat the heresy of dispensationalism

577
00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:27,199
so that people in America stop believing this stupid, idiotic

578
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:31,079
heresy where whereby they basically think the Nation of Israel

579
00:36:31,159 --> 00:36:36,639
is the Church, which is just looney bins. But somebody,

580
00:36:36,679 --> 00:36:38,960
Luigi I think, was calling out one of these evangelical

581
00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:41,679
pastors who has like the nation State of Israel flag

582
00:36:41,679 --> 00:36:43,800
and his profile, like he doesn't even have a Christian

583
00:36:44,639 --> 00:36:48,119
flag in his profile. It's like, okay, so you're actually

584
00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:52,519
not Christian exactly. It's just it is weird how many

585
00:36:52,559 --> 00:36:57,599
people believe this dispensationalist heresy, and it's so easy to refute.

586
00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:00,159
You know, we did this that stream of Jimbo I've

587
00:37:00,159 --> 00:37:02,480
been polish. I though it turned out to be a

588
00:37:02,519 --> 00:37:05,360
really good stream. It is long, it's four hours, but

589
00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:09,679
I mean it took four hours to thoroughly demolish. I

590
00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:14,599
think every aspect and angle of dispensationalism, from its history

591
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:19,800
to its theology, to its deep state geopolitical promotion and implications.

592
00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:27,280
I mean, we went through all of it. So, I mean,

593
00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:30,920
I think to have an effect in the Middle East

594
00:37:31,039 --> 00:37:34,960
requires a change in American foreign policy. To have a

595
00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:40,159
change in American war policy requires time and effort to

596
00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:47,119
refute the stupid dispensationalist Premillennials heresy. And so that's going

597
00:37:47,199 --> 00:37:51,840
to happen for people becoming Orthodox. So I don't know

598
00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:55,639
what other route to take. Aculars five dollars, Jay, I'm

599
00:37:55,639 --> 00:37:57,360
a longtime viewer and I'm now at Orthodox kind of

600
00:37:57,440 --> 00:37:59,719
human things thanks to you. Would you how would your

601
00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:03,199
Aply somebody says they believe in morals in a higher power,

602
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:06,079
but I'm not a Christian. Basically, their deists. How would

603
00:38:06,079 --> 00:38:08,800
you respond to that? Well, I mean, this is really

604
00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:10,679
just kind of an empty phrase and statement. I mean,

605
00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:13,079
what does it even mean to say I believe in

606
00:38:13,119 --> 00:38:15,000
morals and a higher power? What if I believe the

607
00:38:15,079 --> 00:38:16,920
higher power Satan and the morals that he gives me

608
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:21,079
are to you know, steal, kill and destroy? Right? What

609
00:38:21,159 --> 00:38:23,960
does Conan say that he can't wait to hit that

610
00:38:24,039 --> 00:38:27,719
advantation of the women to you know whatever Conan's phrased? Like,

611
00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:28,719
what if those are the morals?

612
00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:28,800
Speaker 7: Like?

613
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:31,519
Speaker 5: Why is that wrong? So, in other words, it's not

614
00:38:31,559 --> 00:38:33,440
good enough to just say that quote there's a higher

615
00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:34,280
power in morals.

616
00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:34,719
Speaker 9: This is like.

617
00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:41,159
Speaker 5: Alcoholics anonymous level theology, which is basically just meaningless. I mean,

618
00:38:41,159 --> 00:38:43,480
what does that mean? So you got to have some

619
00:38:43,559 --> 00:38:46,320
kind of content to who the deity is and what

620
00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:49,800
the worldview is. So I would just critique the worldview

621
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:52,159
at that kind of presubsisitional level. Guy M ten dollars,

622
00:38:52,159 --> 00:38:55,159
thank you for everything that you do. I looked into

623
00:38:55,159 --> 00:38:59,119
the early Church and I ended up leaving Calvinism before

624
00:38:59,199 --> 00:39:03,719
Constant and Nope, I started attending an Antiochian Orthodox Church.

625
00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:07,400
The liturgy is definitely the biggest event that I've ever attended.

626
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:10,039
I can't believe I ever felt for Calvinism. I fell

627
00:39:10,119 --> 00:39:12,320
for Calvinism. It's okay. I mean, you know, we're all

628
00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:16,239
going to be making these mistakes. We can't help what

629
00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:19,480
we were raised with. So we got to be open

630
00:39:19,519 --> 00:39:23,119
to hearing new information. But also there's a weird balance.

631
00:39:23,119 --> 00:39:24,599
I don't know what the right answer is, but like

632
00:39:25,079 --> 00:39:27,920
you know, we're in this era where there's an infinite

633
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:31,920
sea of information on the Internet, and we're always going

634
00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:34,840
to be hearing new arguments, new challenges, new information. So

635
00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:36,599
there's got to be some kind of balance we strike

636
00:39:36,679 --> 00:39:40,440
between having an open mind to hear new arguments, new information,

637
00:39:41,119 --> 00:39:44,039
and not being blown about by every wind of doctrine

638
00:39:44,039 --> 00:39:47,239
like the New Testament says. So hopefully we can strike

639
00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:49,159
some kind of balance there. And I think that anybody

640
00:39:49,159 --> 00:39:52,559
who truly honestly seeks the truth, I think Christ will

641
00:39:52,639 --> 00:39:54,760
lead them to the truth. Albanian Dude ninety eight one

642
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:57,559
dollars Do you think that some UFOs are demonic in origin? Yeah,

643
00:39:57,559 --> 00:39:59,199
I think there is a demonic element to it. Even

644
00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:02,920
some of the secular theorists like Jacques Vlaie admit there's

645
00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:05,719
some kind of sinister, nefarious element to it. Do you

646
00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:08,159
think the government knows and is in on it? I

647
00:40:08,199 --> 00:40:10,159
mean to it. I mean I think the government absolutely

648
00:40:10,159 --> 00:40:13,159
knows about the black ops, you know, alien deception crap

649
00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:15,599
that they push, and that all the people from the

650
00:40:15,639 --> 00:40:19,159
deep state, the aviary, you know all these you know

651
00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:22,400
m J twelve con men, Richard Dody and go watch

652
00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:28,280
mirage men. That's obvious. Are the drones piloted by demons? No,

653
00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:31,880
I don't think the drunes are piloted by demons. That

654
00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:34,519
sounds kind of funny though. Still go a our five

655
00:40:34,559 --> 00:40:41,840
dollars your name will be more deep Jay, thank you

656
00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:44,159
for the stream. I'm looking at orthodoxy. I'm a Jewish

657
00:40:44,159 --> 00:40:46,639
believer in Jesus. I have a question by the influence

658
00:40:46,679 --> 00:40:50,360
of Hellenism on Christianity and Judaism as a negative or positive. Well,

659
00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:52,360
I think you have to be more precise, because sometimes

660
00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:56,639
Hellenism just means Greek culture, Greek language. I don't think

661
00:40:56,719 --> 00:40:59,079
Christianity would have spread had there not been coin a

662
00:40:59,159 --> 00:41:01,840
Greek spoke throughout the Empire, which is an element of Hellenism.

663
00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:05,000
If you talk about Hellenism in terms of like Greek

664
00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:08,760
philosophy and metaphysics, that's a two edged sword that can

665
00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:13,559
be a basis for people falling into heresies. Most of

666
00:41:13,559 --> 00:41:16,800
the heresy arcs in the Seven Ecamenical Councils had some

667
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:21,440
kind of Greek metaphysical assumption that they were importing into

668
00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:25,800
the theology, whether it's areas, whether it's Eunomius who's literally

669
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:29,840
a Neoplatonist, whether it's Origin, or even all the way

670
00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:33,880
up into Severus. Severus himself had Neoplatonic assumption. So I

671
00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:37,960
mean just depends on what you mean. There's also harmless

672
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:41,840
cultural elements of quote Hellenism that are part of the

673
00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:45,760
Church's tradition little tea tradition. For example, the style of

674
00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:49,639
the vestiments is not just Hebrew and origin out of

675
00:41:49,679 --> 00:41:52,679
coming out of the Jewish priesthood, but it also bears

676
00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:56,679
a Byzantine stamp to the vestiments. And so obviously the

677
00:41:56,760 --> 00:41:59,920
Church is going to have it's kind of unique history

678
00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:04,840
that influences the Hebrew origins. So I think there's a

679
00:42:05,679 --> 00:42:08,880
both and flexibility going on here. But no, we don't

680
00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:11,480
want the degenerate elements of Hellenic culture, which the Book

681
00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:17,880
of maccabeeest for example, calls out, you know, like naked

682
00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:21,800
men and bathroom stalls and naked men wrestling. That's all

683
00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:25,719
Hellenic Greek cultures, you know stuff. So no, we don't

684
00:42:25,719 --> 00:42:27,039
want none of that. We don't know. We don't know

685
00:42:27,119 --> 00:42:33,119
skittle soldiers like the three hundred or whatever. But using

686
00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:37,360
ideas or toolkits from Greek philosophy can help theology. That's

687
00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:40,800
part of the Church's tradition. Anonymous, five dollars. We're both open.

688
00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:44,119
There's a last two super jets. What would you say

689
00:42:44,159 --> 00:42:48,039
about your use of tag and precept as a substance

690
00:42:48,079 --> 00:42:50,920
of logic rather than a self evident given from a

691
00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:56,280
worldview without any transcental justification. What would you what would

692
00:42:56,360 --> 00:43:00,079
you say that your use of tag and precept is

693
00:43:00,079 --> 00:43:03,960
the substance of logic? I don't know if i'd say that.

694
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:06,519
I would just say that the point of pre subpositional

695
00:43:06,599 --> 00:43:10,519
argumentation or transcendenttal augmentation is simply to talk about the

696
00:43:10,599 --> 00:43:14,519
possibility of doing logic, the possibility of knowing at all,

697
00:43:14,559 --> 00:43:17,159
the possibility of having metaphysics at all. So there are

698
00:43:17,239 --> 00:43:20,960
arguments about the necessary preconditions. I don't know if I

699
00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:24,000
would call the necessary precondition quote the substance of logic,

700
00:43:25,039 --> 00:43:29,960
but I do agree that it is fundamentally opposed to

701
00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:33,960
the idea of something strictly literally being self evident. I

702
00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:36,199
think we can have a colloquial sense of something being

703
00:43:36,239 --> 00:43:40,360
self evident, like does tuplus to equal four? Yeah, we

704
00:43:40,440 --> 00:43:44,679
kind of intuitively apprehend that without much investments. We don't

705
00:43:44,719 --> 00:43:48,159
have to investigate every time we add two plus two

706
00:43:48,159 --> 00:43:50,360
to see if, in fact it does all wes equal four.

707
00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:55,840
We kind of have this eventual, kind of instantaneous apprehension

708
00:43:55,880 --> 00:43:59,440
that it is correct. And so, in that limited sense,

709
00:44:00,039 --> 00:44:02,519
kind of a mundane colloquial sense, you could call something

710
00:44:02,599 --> 00:44:07,639
self evident, but in a strict epistemic sense, know, how

711
00:44:07,679 --> 00:44:09,920
could something I mean, anytime people try to argue for this,

712
00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:12,239
they just really end up missing the point and just

713
00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:15,719
restating the problem and you know, relying on something else,

714
00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:18,559
which then makes the first thing not self evident. If

715
00:44:18,559 --> 00:44:21,519
it's relying on something, it's not self evident. If it's

716
00:44:21,519 --> 00:44:23,800
self evident, we need to know why it's self evident.

717
00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:26,039
We need to solve the criterion problem, et cetera. Et cetera.

718
00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:31,199
Public Cort says, one dollar orthodox that downplay the Eastern fathers,

719
00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:38,000
who would this be like weird Latin Western right people.

720
00:44:38,039 --> 00:44:42,039
I don't know the ones that exults. You're talking about

721
00:44:42,039 --> 00:44:43,079
Western right people.

722
00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:46,000
Speaker 9: Out.

723
00:44:46,079 --> 00:44:48,000
Speaker 5: You just have a sentence. It's not a question, so

724
00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:53,159
I'm not sure what the question is. Yeah, I'm not

725
00:44:53,159 --> 00:44:55,159
a huge fan of the Western right, so I don't

726
00:44:55,960 --> 00:44:58,920
I'm not sure what the question is. Jorda on five dollars.

727
00:44:59,119 --> 00:45:00,920
I love to stream, yes, what they do with Sam.

728
00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:09,559
I'm assuming you're talking about that and God Logic. Would

729
00:45:09,599 --> 00:45:14,039
you do a stream with God Logic on PSA and

730
00:45:14,079 --> 00:45:17,199
the Protestant doctrines? Sure, I'm always open to any kind

731
00:45:17,199 --> 00:45:20,960
of chat like that. Nicholas Palomas one dollar. Did you

732
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:26,639
see Chris Plants gave up on being intellectually rigorous because

733
00:45:26,679 --> 00:45:29,679
he did a short video summary of Ubi and Abara debate. No,

734
00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:31,719
I didn't see. I haven't kept up with what Chris

735
00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:34,719
Plants was talking about. I'm not trying to be mean,

736
00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:37,559
but you know, it felt like when we had that

737
00:45:38,239 --> 00:45:39,360
sort of debate that.

738
00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:41,559
Speaker 10: I don't know, I don't know.

739
00:45:41,559 --> 00:45:43,119
Speaker 5: What else to say. All Right, we're gonna open it up.

740
00:45:43,679 --> 00:45:45,840
I'm gonna get priority to people who disagree. If you're

741
00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:48,280
a Catholic, if you're a Protestant, if you're Muslim, if

742
00:45:48,280 --> 00:45:50,119
you're atheist, you go to the head of the line.

743
00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:55,119
If you have questions about you know, other stuff FAQ questions,

744
00:45:55,800 --> 00:45:59,039
please save those till later. Uh, don't rush to the

745
00:45:59,079 --> 00:46:01,719
head of line with you know, questions that literally you

746
00:46:01,719 --> 00:46:04,320
could get your priest to answer in catechistus. I mean

747
00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:06,440
not trying to be rude. It's just we always get

748
00:46:06,440 --> 00:46:09,960
people piling in with you know, what's the problem with

749
00:46:10,239 --> 00:46:16,639
penal substitution? What is the Orthodox feel and Balmintism. We're

750
00:46:16,639 --> 00:46:19,639
going to open it up now to let's see inquisitor.

751
00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:26,639
We got We've got an inquisitor. We got a Spanish inquisitor.

752
00:46:28,159 --> 00:46:32,599
Queen Isabella has sent our destruction into the chat. What's up?

753
00:46:32,639 --> 00:46:32,800
Speaker 9: Man?

754
00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:44,119
Speaker 5: Got on mute and he ran away? Good job. So

755
00:46:44,719 --> 00:46:54,599
there's our first Roman Catholic an inquisitor who literally just

756
00:46:54,679 --> 00:46:57,679
ran away. Now maybe he dropped out, and if he

757
00:46:57,760 --> 00:47:01,320
dropped out, he's welcome to come back. But I make

758
00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:04,519
one joke. Here it comes he's back. Come on, inquisitor general,

759
00:47:04,519 --> 00:47:08,760
what's up? Man, Let's have an auto de fay. Put

760
00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:11,280
me burn me up, baby, Auto de fay right now,

761
00:47:11,880 --> 00:47:17,760
got unmute? You have to unmute?

762
00:47:20,679 --> 00:47:24,719
Speaker 11: Oh man, I had to have the power buttons?

763
00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:25,280
Speaker 7: After all?

764
00:47:26,239 --> 00:47:27,039
Speaker 9: Am I being heard?

765
00:47:27,239 --> 00:47:27,400
Speaker 7: Yeah?

766
00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:28,960
Speaker 5: What's up? What's on your mind?

767
00:47:30,039 --> 00:47:30,280
Speaker 4: Hey?

768
00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:30,719
Speaker 9: J J?

769
00:47:31,000 --> 00:47:31,960
Speaker 7: First and foremost?

770
00:47:32,039 --> 00:47:33,679
Speaker 12: Man, Hey, you.

771
00:47:33,639 --> 00:47:36,320
Speaker 11: Don't want to give you your props. Just generally speaking,

772
00:47:36,599 --> 00:47:41,280
I think you've been a tremendous course for good. The

773
00:47:41,480 --> 00:47:47,559
question I have for you, Jay is, you know, I think,

774
00:47:47,599 --> 00:47:51,119
for like you know, somebody seeking the truth, they're gonna

775
00:47:51,239 --> 00:47:53,320
end up apostolic, right.

776
00:47:54,599 --> 00:47:56,960
Speaker 5: And I don't know what that means.

777
00:47:57,280 --> 00:47:57,519
Speaker 7: I don't.

778
00:47:57,519 --> 00:47:59,599
Speaker 5: I don't, I mean I don't. We don't accept that

779
00:47:59,639 --> 00:48:01,719
there are or all of these Apostolic churches that are

780
00:48:01,719 --> 00:48:04,079
in schism.

781
00:48:04,480 --> 00:48:08,719
Speaker 7: You know there's two ja, come on you trump?

782
00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:11,800
Speaker 5: Well, I mean you that you claim that, but that

783
00:48:11,840 --> 00:48:14,039
doesn't mean that you are, because once you go into

784
00:48:14,079 --> 00:48:16,000
heresy you're not Apostolic anymore.

785
00:48:18,039 --> 00:48:21,559
Speaker 11: Well you could trade your churches back to our Lord.

786
00:48:22,039 --> 00:48:26,440
Speaker 5: Wright or once you adopt heresy. And by the way,

787
00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:29,239
this is actually the traditional Roman Catholic position too, you

788
00:48:29,239 --> 00:48:33,960
are no longer a member of the mystical body agreed greed?

789
00:48:34,039 --> 00:48:35,000
Speaker 7: Okay, you believe?

790
00:48:35,159 --> 00:48:36,880
Speaker 5: How could you how could you agree to that when

791
00:48:36,880 --> 00:48:38,519
that is contrary to what you just said?

792
00:48:40,519 --> 00:48:42,800
Speaker 7: What do you mean it's a country? Wait? Wait, the

793
00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:43,880
only thing that I have.

794
00:48:43,880 --> 00:48:47,519
Speaker 11: Said, Jay, to be clear, is that somebody seeking the

795
00:48:47,599 --> 00:48:50,760
truth is going to seek for something that you know,

796
00:48:50,840 --> 00:48:53,559
reaches back to our Lord, a church that our Lord founded.

797
00:48:53,760 --> 00:48:57,320
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's just presupposing the Roman Catholic position that apostolic

798
00:48:57,440 --> 00:49:01,079
means anybody who possesses Apostolic succession. And I just argued

799
00:49:01,119 --> 00:49:04,559
against that, and that your own tradition doesn't hold that you.

800
00:49:04,519 --> 00:49:07,360
Speaker 13: Could have a put it this way, Jay's made this argument,

801
00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:15,480
and I was, so you could make uh oh, okay,

802
00:49:16,079 --> 00:49:18,960
Jay's quantum doppelganger.

803
00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:20,800
Speaker 9: In a multiverse.

804
00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:24,800
Speaker 12: Anyways, So think about how silly this is.

805
00:49:25,519 --> 00:49:29,639
Speaker 10: So a group can become Satanist and as long as

806
00:49:29,639 --> 00:49:33,000
they you know, and they they skis them out of

807
00:49:33,000 --> 00:49:35,320
the Roman Catholic Church, but as long as they just

808
00:49:36,079 --> 00:49:40,559
trace their lineage back like then it's a historic church.

809
00:49:41,199 --> 00:49:43,400
I mean, this is how absurd the conclusion would get.

810
00:49:45,039 --> 00:49:48,320
Speaker 5: It's not actually absurd. In fact, Roman Catholicism actually says

811
00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:51,559
that if you've become ordained and you become a Satanist

812
00:49:51,559 --> 00:49:53,679
that day, you still have Apostolic succession.

813
00:49:55,880 --> 00:49:58,239
Speaker 11: Hey, Jay, I haven't even asked my question, and you

814
00:49:58,320 --> 00:49:59,519
guys are I.

815
00:49:59,480 --> 00:50:02,559
Speaker 5: Mean, what you said, you're you already said something that's

816
00:50:02,639 --> 00:50:04,880
simply not true and assumes your position. So I'm not

817
00:50:04,880 --> 00:50:06,800
sure to be mean to you. I'm just pointing out that, like,

818
00:50:07,480 --> 00:50:11,000
how do you you're assuming that Orthodox and Catholicism are

819
00:50:11,039 --> 00:50:13,679
quote Apostolic churches and that's not our position.

820
00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:19,360
Speaker 11: So all right, fair enough, Jay my God coming out

821
00:50:19,400 --> 00:50:20,119
firing with.

822
00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:20,639
Speaker 7: The with the.

823
00:50:22,119 --> 00:50:24,280
Speaker 5: Well, you're an inquisitor and it says it's a debate stream.

824
00:50:24,400 --> 00:50:29,280
Speaker 11: So I'm a lay inquisitor, not a professional one.

825
00:50:29,559 --> 00:50:30,039
Speaker 7: Well listen.

826
00:50:31,119 --> 00:50:34,400
Speaker 11: But the question that I had for you was, you know,

827
00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:37,519
I mean going back to this question, which I think

828
00:50:37,519 --> 00:50:41,159
you already kind of sabotaged the question. But in anyhows,

829
00:50:41,199 --> 00:50:44,639
you know, but somebody, somebody looking for the truths, they're

830
00:50:44,679 --> 00:50:48,079
going to land well hopefully they would land on it.

831
00:50:49,440 --> 00:50:51,559
But the question that I had for you is is

832
00:50:51,599 --> 00:50:54,920
your heritage east or west of Berlin? And if it's

833
00:50:54,960 --> 00:50:59,159
west of Berlin, how did you land an Orthodoxy?

834
00:51:00,079 --> 00:51:02,360
Speaker 5: Yeah? This is it's such a mean I'm not I'm

835
00:51:02,400 --> 00:51:03,519
not trying to be mean to you. It's just so

836
00:51:03,559 --> 00:51:06,039
many Roman Catholics think this way. I literally have I

837
00:51:06,079 --> 00:51:09,440
do not understand this thought process. How does the historical

838
00:51:09,519 --> 00:51:13,400
geopolitical settings of the Cold War or the Byzantine Empire.

839
00:51:13,400 --> 00:51:15,119
How does that have anything to do with which position

840
00:51:15,239 --> 00:51:15,639
is true?

841
00:51:20,400 --> 00:51:20,639
Speaker 7: A J.

842
00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:22,800
Speaker 11: I'm not sure if you're looking for a rebuttal, but

843
00:51:22,880 --> 00:51:26,079
I'm just trying to hear you out, just because I figured,

844
00:51:26,119 --> 00:51:27,719
you know people, you know men.

845
00:51:27,920 --> 00:51:28,639
Speaker 4: I can understand.

846
00:51:28,639 --> 00:51:30,840
Speaker 5: I mean, it's like you guys almost always think the

847
00:51:30,880 --> 00:51:33,599
religion is your heritage. It makes no that makes no sense,

848
00:51:33,760 --> 00:51:35,880
like that's nothing to do with whether it's true or false.

849
00:51:36,760 --> 00:51:40,280
Speaker 7: No, we think it's universal. We think it's universal.

850
00:51:40,400 --> 00:51:43,119
Speaker 5: But you just literally argued that why did I end

851
00:51:43,199 --> 00:51:46,800
up Orthodox if it's not my uh geopolitical heritage.

852
00:51:48,639 --> 00:51:52,960
Speaker 11: Well, the thing is that I could understand somebody being Eastern.

853
00:51:52,559 --> 00:51:55,679
Speaker 12: European, uh, you know, going back to.

854
00:51:57,239 --> 00:52:00,119
Speaker 11: Orthodoxy, because you know, they kind of trace back and

855
00:52:00,159 --> 00:52:03,880
that's where they land. But I wasn't sure.

856
00:52:03,679 --> 00:52:04,079
Speaker 9: If you were.

857
00:52:06,039 --> 00:52:07,719
Speaker 5: You want to know the real answer. Their answer is

858
00:52:07,719 --> 00:52:15,239
because I'm an Eastern European KGB sorcerer. That's why I

859
00:52:15,280 --> 00:52:18,159
worked for the KGB. Everybody thought we went away, but

860
00:52:18,760 --> 00:52:23,360
actually redeem Zuomer is correct. Putin is the one that's

861
00:52:23,559 --> 00:52:26,360
running a giant syop that Orthodox that people are converty

862
00:52:26,480 --> 00:52:28,119
Orthodoxy in the West, and I'm the head of it.

863
00:52:29,639 --> 00:52:33,760
Speaker 4: Well, I'll say this much. Putin is probably.

864
00:52:35,480 --> 00:52:37,599
Speaker 11: I mean, yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and say it.

865
00:52:37,639 --> 00:52:41,039
I think Putin is probably the most sound and based

866
00:52:41,199 --> 00:52:46,079
had a state, even though he's not ours, speaking for

867
00:52:46,159 --> 00:52:50,559
those of us in the US, kind of like some other.

868
00:52:50,599 --> 00:52:53,960
Speaker 7: Uncle might have been in the early thirties.

869
00:52:55,480 --> 00:52:57,039
Speaker 5: Yeah, I have a question for you. I have a

870
00:52:57,119 --> 00:53:00,320
question for you. Do you think that, let's say, winning

871
00:53:00,320 --> 00:53:03,440
a giant battle, does that make Catholicism true in your mind?

872
00:53:05,320 --> 00:53:06,360
Speaker 7: No? No, no, no.

873
00:53:06,440 --> 00:53:10,400
Speaker 11: I think the truth is the truth, regardless of one.

874
00:53:10,280 --> 00:53:11,320
Speaker 9: True lost battle.

875
00:53:11,519 --> 00:53:13,599
Speaker 5: Does that have an in truth?

876
00:53:15,800 --> 00:53:17,119
Speaker 9: Are you making fun of my accent?

877
00:53:18,079 --> 00:53:19,679
Speaker 5: I didn't know you had an accent? Are you saying

878
00:53:19,719 --> 00:53:20,440
you had an accent?

879
00:53:22,199 --> 00:53:22,360
Speaker 2: Well?

880
00:53:22,400 --> 00:53:23,320
Speaker 7: You know I'm Spanish?

881
00:53:23,400 --> 00:53:25,880
Speaker 9: What do you want waiting on from your man?

882
00:53:26,000 --> 00:53:26,559
Speaker 14: Come on, man?

883
00:53:27,440 --> 00:53:31,920
Speaker 5: You called yourself inquisitor. I don't know you. Could you

884
00:53:32,000 --> 00:53:35,360
call me? You call me an Eastern European? You call

885
00:53:35,440 --> 00:53:36,559
me an Eastern European.

886
00:53:37,840 --> 00:53:41,039
Speaker 7: I didn't. I was wondering if you were, because.

887
00:53:40,800 --> 00:53:45,079
Speaker 5: I mean, if you're like, can't you tell I'm a Serb?

888
00:53:45,199 --> 00:53:51,800
I'm Serbian? There you go all right, thank you. I'm

889
00:53:51,800 --> 00:53:54,280
just joking.

890
00:53:53,239 --> 00:53:56,440
Speaker 7: Western European countries. Uh, many of them were Orthodox.

891
00:53:59,760 --> 00:54:02,280
Speaker 5: Well, that was what he was saying. He's like, I

892
00:54:02,320 --> 00:54:03,800
don't know, I don't know what that guy was saying.

893
00:54:03,800 --> 00:54:16,000
That trying me mean to him. But Eli, what's up, dude? Eli?

894
00:54:16,119 --> 00:54:16,480
What's up?

895
00:54:16,519 --> 00:54:16,639
Speaker 9: Man?

896
00:54:16,639 --> 00:54:19,199
Speaker 5: Don't sit on any don't sit on any walls up high.

897
00:54:19,239 --> 00:54:20,000
You might fall over.

898
00:54:21,679 --> 00:54:22,920
Speaker 7: Hey man, can you hear me?

899
00:54:24,480 --> 00:54:24,840
Speaker 4: Okay?

900
00:54:24,840 --> 00:54:26,320
Speaker 7: Great? Great? First of all, I just want to say

901
00:54:26,320 --> 00:54:28,400
thank you for your hard work. Man. I listened to

902
00:54:28,440 --> 00:54:30,519
you as as much as I can. If you're doing

903
00:54:30,559 --> 00:54:31,119
the large work.

904
00:54:31,159 --> 00:54:31,400
Speaker 15: Brothers.

905
00:54:33,199 --> 00:54:35,480
Speaker 14: I just wanted to know what I should look for

906
00:54:36,280 --> 00:54:39,840
when choosing an Orthodox church because I'm going.

907
00:54:39,639 --> 00:54:42,960
Speaker 7: To make UH. I want to cover from being a.

908
00:54:42,920 --> 00:54:48,320
Speaker 10: Protestant to Orthodoxy because of you and Andrew Wilson's So.

909
00:54:47,480 --> 00:54:50,679
Speaker 5: I would say, you know, uh, try to find UH.

910
00:54:51,320 --> 00:54:53,320
I would visit all the Orthodox churches around you. I

911
00:54:53,360 --> 00:54:56,239
wouldn't immediately worry so much about what jurisdiction is.

912
00:54:56,480 --> 00:54:56,599
Speaker 2: UH.

913
00:54:56,760 --> 00:55:01,400
Speaker 5: See which one you detect tis the most uh conservative

914
00:55:01,440 --> 00:55:05,039
types of views, the priest that's the best you know

915
00:55:05,760 --> 00:55:09,199
person for you personally, and make the decision in that way.

916
00:55:09,239 --> 00:55:11,360
I wouldn't worry too much about the other subjects, but

917
00:55:11,480 --> 00:55:16,320
definitely just check out what's around you. Franken Nader, Uh,

918
00:55:16,360 --> 00:55:20,639
we got a rebellious bastard atheist. He's gonna set us straight.

919
00:55:20,719 --> 00:55:27,559
Speaker 8: Uh.

920
00:55:27,639 --> 00:55:30,679
Speaker 5: I got an apparently, I got an honorary serb title

921
00:55:30,719 --> 00:55:35,320
from some of the people in the chat. Serbs love me, dude. Well,

922
00:55:35,480 --> 00:55:39,199
serbs are always like reaching out. Have some kind of

923
00:55:39,199 --> 00:55:40,800
serb kindred. I don't know what's going on?

924
00:55:41,480 --> 00:55:42,119
Speaker 8: What's up? Man?

925
00:55:43,239 --> 00:55:53,159
Speaker 5: Got on you? What's up?

926
00:55:55,400 --> 00:55:55,760
Speaker 9: Okay?

927
00:55:56,840 --> 00:55:59,960
Speaker 7: So that is anthidats he owns the.

928
00:56:00,760 --> 00:56:02,880
Speaker 5: You call me from a toll booth. You call me

929
00:56:02,880 --> 00:56:07,440
from a phone booth. No, no, it sounds like a

930
00:56:07,480 --> 00:56:08,000
phone booth.

931
00:56:08,039 --> 00:56:08,280
Speaker 9: Man.

932
00:56:09,639 --> 00:56:10,079
Speaker 7: I'm sorry.

933
00:56:10,119 --> 00:56:11,079
Speaker 9: If it doesn't sound.

934
00:56:10,880 --> 00:56:12,679
Speaker 5: Good, you call him fro nineteen eighty seven on the

935
00:56:12,679 --> 00:56:13,800
phone booth. Go ahead.

936
00:56:16,280 --> 00:56:18,320
Speaker 4: My question is orthodoxy?

937
00:56:18,440 --> 00:56:20,960
Speaker 12: I told thee of scripture? Is that correct?

938
00:56:21,719 --> 00:56:22,400
Speaker 2: Uh?

939
00:56:22,679 --> 00:56:27,039
Speaker 5: Yeah? Not maybe basically yeah, but not in like the

940
00:56:27,159 --> 00:56:28,880
kjav only type of mindset.

941
00:56:29,920 --> 00:56:31,719
Speaker 14: Well, just honest questions.

942
00:56:31,840 --> 00:56:34,559
Speaker 16: How do you reconcile the factual?

943
00:56:34,679 --> 00:56:36,039
Speaker 12: Inerrants he's a scripture?

944
00:56:37,199 --> 00:56:38,440
Speaker 5: Well, there are so.

945
00:56:39,360 --> 00:56:44,760
Speaker 16: Diverges from known fact, right, like, for instance, the flood

946
00:56:44,800 --> 00:56:46,159
that never happened.

947
00:56:46,000 --> 00:56:47,719
Speaker 5: Or hold on, how do you know there was no

948
00:56:47,840 --> 00:56:51,079
flood when ancient writing Let's say this.

949
00:56:51,400 --> 00:56:55,360
Speaker 7: Hold on, let's say this science says it didn't happen.

950
00:56:55,880 --> 00:56:57,960
Speaker 5: How do you know that science is correct? As if

951
00:56:58,000 --> 00:57:01,000
science is one entity that speaks with one authoritative voice.

952
00:57:01,000 --> 00:57:02,320
So you have an assumption that you can.

953
00:57:02,480 --> 00:57:05,239
Speaker 7: Justify verifiable data, right.

954
00:57:05,800 --> 00:57:07,880
Speaker 5: How do you what does that even mean? To verify?

955
00:57:08,039 --> 00:57:11,000
How do you know that it's verified? Have you actually verified?

956
00:57:11,000 --> 00:57:12,519
Are you trusting the quote science?

957
00:57:12,559 --> 00:57:12,719
Speaker 9: Man?

958
00:57:16,039 --> 00:57:18,079
Speaker 17: I guess you have to do the best you can

959
00:57:18,199 --> 00:57:21,480
to understand the size and make your own conclusion.

960
00:57:21,519 --> 00:57:23,880
Speaker 5: Okay, so we all got to get PhDs and engineering

961
00:57:23,880 --> 00:57:28,079
degrees in every field to know absolutely not.

962
00:57:28,159 --> 00:57:29,440
Speaker 4: You don't have to have a PhD.

963
00:57:30,039 --> 00:57:34,480
Speaker 5: Oh, so you rely on experts. So you rely on experts,

964
00:57:34,960 --> 00:57:37,360
of course. Okay, so how do you know which experts

965
00:57:37,360 --> 00:57:37,880
are right.

966
00:57:40,840 --> 00:57:42,760
Speaker 7: The ones that can be verified?

967
00:57:42,880 --> 00:57:43,039
Speaker 2: Right?

968
00:57:43,199 --> 00:57:47,000
Speaker 5: So, well, but you said that we follow the experts.

969
00:57:47,280 --> 00:57:50,119
That's just you just made a circular argument, So we

970
00:57:50,199 --> 00:57:51,880
follow the experts.

971
00:57:52,360 --> 00:57:57,639
Speaker 12: Here's what I'm asking. I'm asking if you are basing

972
00:57:58,239 --> 00:58:02,039
your belief in street sure solely on scripture?

973
00:58:02,639 --> 00:58:05,639
Speaker 5: No, I'm not. I believe that there's logical arguments that

974
00:58:06,119 --> 00:58:09,719
are prior to science, that I base it on prior.

975
00:58:10,239 --> 00:58:13,840
Speaker 18: Okay, that's my only question.

976
00:58:15,480 --> 00:58:16,159
Speaker 7: I have a question.

977
00:58:16,239 --> 00:58:17,360
Speaker 9: A good thing good.

978
00:58:17,519 --> 00:58:18,840
Speaker 12: There's a lot that don't.

979
00:58:20,239 --> 00:58:20,719
Speaker 2: Do you?

980
00:58:20,719 --> 00:58:23,760
Speaker 10: You do know that science can't even from science, get

981
00:58:24,199 --> 00:58:26,199
to any knowledge claims.

982
00:58:27,760 --> 00:58:31,599
Speaker 5: How do you figure how does science verify the scientific method?

983
00:58:33,840 --> 00:58:38,280
Because it works, so anything that works as so anything

984
00:58:38,320 --> 00:58:40,320
that works. So here we go. So this is a

985
00:58:40,360 --> 00:58:42,840
people have no idea what they're talking about. It's not

986
00:58:42,880 --> 00:58:48,639
even worth talking to this guy. It's a waste of time, right, clan,

987
00:58:48,679 --> 00:58:54,159
see what's up? That's not going to go anywhere. Welcome everybody.

988
00:58:54,199 --> 00:58:58,639
We're having open for him.

989
00:58:58,679 --> 00:58:59,519
Speaker 7: Hellocan guys here.

990
00:59:00,960 --> 00:59:03,440
Speaker 5: Tom Clinton, So what's up?

991
00:59:04,119 --> 00:59:04,760
Speaker 4: Tom Clancy?

992
00:59:05,039 --> 00:59:07,480
Speaker 14: So I'm new to orthodoxy, so give me some grace

993
00:59:07,519 --> 00:59:08,840
that this is a bit of a basic question.

994
00:59:10,239 --> 00:59:14,440
Speaker 7: But I have heard you use curse words before, and

995
00:59:14,559 --> 00:59:16,599
so doesn't the Bible tell us to stay.

996
00:59:16,400 --> 00:59:18,239
Speaker 2: Away from fillow language and profanity.

997
00:59:18,360 --> 00:59:20,039
Speaker 5: Yes, and that's why you should not listen to me,

998
00:59:20,159 --> 00:59:24,480
and you should go find the pious men that you support. Steven,

999
00:59:24,559 --> 00:59:32,159
what's up? I'm gonna say a curse worrid poop. Oh,

1000
00:59:32,199 --> 00:59:37,719
I just did it. I just just got wrecked? What's

1001
00:59:37,800 --> 00:59:41,760
up by? Like, where in the Bible are there quote

1002
00:59:41,840 --> 00:59:45,119
curse words they might know? Can you show me the

1003
00:59:45,239 --> 00:59:47,280
verse where there's curse words? Did you know that in

1004
00:59:47,320 --> 00:59:49,599
the King James Bible it says that people piss it

1005
00:59:49,719 --> 00:59:53,480
against a wall? So I'm confused. Is that a curse

1006
00:59:53,519 --> 00:59:56,679
word or what? What is it about the letters s

1007
00:59:56,840 --> 01:00:00,239
h I T that are evil letters? Versus is the

1008
01:00:00,320 --> 01:00:05,400
letters pop which are acceptable letters? Go ahead? Stuff on?

1009
01:00:05,480 --> 01:00:05,880
What's up?

1010
01:00:05,920 --> 01:00:06,079
Speaker 6: Man?

1011
01:00:11,280 --> 01:00:12,480
Speaker 5: You have to unmute.

1012
01:00:14,199 --> 01:00:14,280
Speaker 2: Hi?

1013
01:00:14,480 --> 01:00:15,119
Speaker 11: Can you hear me now?

1014
01:00:15,239 --> 01:00:15,360
Speaker 9: Yes?

1015
01:00:15,400 --> 01:00:17,480
Speaker 12: Sir oh hi, sir h.

1016
01:00:17,599 --> 01:00:19,760
Speaker 19: I'm gonna listen to some debates, and it seems like

1017
01:00:20,159 --> 01:00:23,280
a lot of Christians kind of agree on the same things,

1018
01:00:23,280 --> 01:00:26,760
but they may disagree on specifics, like I guess with

1019
01:00:26,840 --> 01:00:29,639
the Orthodoxy when it comes to the Holy Ghost. Now

1020
01:00:29,679 --> 01:00:31,880
my question is it's not exactly about the Holy Ghost,

1021
01:00:31,960 --> 01:00:35,079
but it seems like these debates is like, well, scripture

1022
01:00:35,079 --> 01:00:38,880
says this, and they reconfirmed the scripture with scripture and scripture.

1023
01:00:39,519 --> 01:00:44,079
So I'm kind of curious, like do all verses carry

1024
01:00:44,119 --> 01:00:48,840
the same weight. So let's say, for instance, well, the

1025
01:00:48,880 --> 01:00:51,719
Holy Ghost says this thing and it's backed up, and

1026
01:00:51,760 --> 01:00:54,000
the orthodox will back it up with five scriptures, but

1027
01:00:54,000 --> 01:00:56,480
that the Catholics will say, the Holy Ghost says this,

1028
01:00:56,599 --> 01:00:58,400
but it's backed up with four scriptures.

1029
01:00:59,199 --> 01:01:01,119
Speaker 5: Like I mean, it has nothing to do with the

1030
01:01:01,199 --> 01:01:02,960
number of verses or this or that. It has to

1031
01:01:03,039 --> 01:01:05,559
do with the interpretation of the verses. So the verses

1032
01:01:05,599 --> 01:01:08,800
don't like self interpret or self authenticate. You have to

1033
01:01:08,800 --> 01:01:11,800
interpret the verses. So you're talking about a question of

1034
01:01:11,840 --> 01:01:14,480
like piling up numbers of verses and the fact that

1035
01:01:14,840 --> 01:01:17,360
Orthodox disagree with Catholics, Like, none of that has anything

1036
01:01:17,400 --> 01:01:20,360
to do with which positions true or false. So that's

1037
01:01:20,559 --> 01:01:22,039
really I'm not trying to be mean to you. I'm

1038
01:01:22,039 --> 01:01:24,559
just saying that has nothing to do with which positions right,

1039
01:01:24,800 --> 01:01:27,360
who's got more quotes or using more quotes or.

1040
01:01:27,320 --> 01:01:31,079
Speaker 19: Whatever, Because it seems like when these debates happen, they're like, well,

1041
01:01:31,239 --> 01:01:32,880
we got all these scriptures to back up.

1042
01:01:32,760 --> 01:01:34,840
Speaker 12: What I'm saying, and then I got all these scriptures

1043
01:01:34,880 --> 01:01:35,239
back up.

1044
01:01:35,199 --> 01:01:35,679
Speaker 7: What I'm saying.

1045
01:01:35,760 --> 01:01:37,519
Speaker 5: Yeah, but that has nothing to do with which positions

1046
01:01:37,519 --> 01:01:38,079
to or false?

1047
01:01:38,159 --> 01:01:40,840
Speaker 12: So what Well, I was kind of curious.

1048
01:01:40,840 --> 01:01:43,639
Speaker 19: So let's say, for instance, like Jesus says something right,

1049
01:01:44,239 --> 01:01:47,239
but then someone would say, well, Paul and Peter and

1050
01:01:47,320 --> 01:01:50,679
Timothy said this, that kind of contradicts what Jesus says.

1051
01:01:50,880 --> 01:01:53,480
So whose verse or whose word has the most weight

1052
01:01:53,519 --> 01:01:57,280
would be Jesus or three other authors.

1053
01:01:57,440 --> 01:02:00,880
Speaker 5: We don't think there's any contradictions between Jesus and his apostle.

1054
01:02:01,000 --> 01:02:03,800
We think that Jesus inspired and taught his apostles what

1055
01:02:03,880 --> 01:02:06,679
to teach and providentially guided them to not teach error.

1056
01:02:07,000 --> 01:02:10,159
So there's no contradiction between Jesus and Paul or whatever.

1057
01:02:10,800 --> 01:02:13,719
Speaker 19: I mustn't necessarily saying contradictions, but maybe a little difference.

1058
01:02:13,920 --> 01:02:15,320
Speaker 5: Well, I would say, I would say that in the

1059
01:02:15,400 --> 01:02:18,519
Orthodox position, we do take the Gospels to have a

1060
01:02:18,639 --> 01:02:21,960
higher status and honor in the liturgy, but that doesn't

1061
01:02:22,000 --> 01:02:24,239
mean that they're like different than the teaching of Paul.

1062
01:02:24,960 --> 01:02:27,840
Speaker 19: Okay, okay, Yeah, So I saw this debate with Trent

1063
01:02:27,920 --> 01:02:30,400
horn In, a Protestant about once say it and always say,

1064
01:02:30,480 --> 01:02:32,360
then they're going to do a scripture, and it's like,

1065
01:02:32,400 --> 01:02:35,840
you know, I see so much people pine on scripture

1066
01:02:35,840 --> 01:02:37,679
on top of each other and stuff, and I just like,

1067
01:02:37,880 --> 01:02:39,920
I agree with you, and that's probably where the church

1068
01:02:39,960 --> 01:02:40,360
comes in.

1069
01:02:40,559 --> 01:02:42,239
Speaker 5: Well, yeah, I would agree, I would agree with you

1070
01:02:42,320 --> 01:02:45,400
that you can't like, a lot of times these disputes

1071
01:02:45,639 --> 01:02:48,760
are not going to be solved in an evidentialist stack

1072
01:02:48,840 --> 01:02:52,079
them up manner. But Trent Horn is an evidentialist, and

1073
01:02:52,119 --> 01:02:54,079
so he thinks that you just stack up one two

1074
01:02:54,079 --> 01:02:57,400
evidences and then people will just look at the evidences

1075
01:02:57,400 --> 01:02:59,400
and they'll just choose because we're all honest and we're

1076
01:02:59,400 --> 01:03:01,559
all neutral. When I don't think that that's true at all.

1077
01:03:01,599 --> 01:03:02,440
None of that's true.

1078
01:03:02,800 --> 01:03:04,599
Speaker 12: Yeah, So that's that's been my big struggle.

1079
01:03:04,639 --> 01:03:07,519
Speaker 19: I'm pretty much agnostic, and I've listened to you guys,

1080
01:03:07,559 --> 01:03:11,079
and you guys like totally crushed the choice of becoming

1081
01:03:11,079 --> 01:03:14,079
a Muslim or Jehovah witnesses or Mormon.

1082
01:03:14,360 --> 01:03:16,639
Speaker 12: You guys definitely pointed me towards the trinity.

1083
01:03:16,400 --> 01:03:18,840
Speaker 5: So well, we crushed the Roman position too.

1084
01:03:20,400 --> 01:03:22,519
Speaker 12: Well, I see that too, But I'm going back. I'm

1085
01:03:22,519 --> 01:03:24,119
trying to do my due diligence on the homework.

1086
01:03:24,159 --> 01:03:26,679
Speaker 19: And that's why I was thinking, like, well, we got

1087
01:03:26,719 --> 01:03:34,360
these two Christians, you know, having a differential opinion on specifics,

1088
01:03:33,840 --> 01:03:36,199
and I was kind of wondering, well, what does term is?

1089
01:03:36,239 --> 01:03:36,960
Speaker 12: What's more specific?

1090
01:03:37,000 --> 01:03:39,360
Speaker 19: Pilon on scripture on top of each other, or see

1091
01:03:39,400 --> 01:03:43,679
who which author or Jesus as a word has more

1092
01:03:43,719 --> 01:03:46,000
weight to when they speak. Now, I see what you're

1093
01:03:46,039 --> 01:03:49,079
saying that what Jesus and the apostles are on.

1094
01:03:49,000 --> 01:03:52,000
Speaker 12: The same page, So I'm just kind of curious.

1095
01:03:52,079 --> 01:03:54,239
Speaker 5: Yeah, well, I don't think I actually I understand your question.

1096
01:03:54,320 --> 01:03:56,320
I just don't think either of those things is really

1097
01:03:56,360 --> 01:03:59,280
going to be the solution, because, you know, if it's

1098
01:03:59,360 --> 01:04:02,199
like a debate between an Orthodox and a Roman Catholic,

1099
01:04:02,320 --> 01:04:06,800
usually those debates involve so much history, so much you know,

1100
01:04:06,840 --> 01:04:10,719
biblical material, that they're not going to solve it or

1101
01:04:11,079 --> 01:04:16,320
convince people typically unless they're really low tier lo tier voters,

1102
01:04:17,119 --> 01:04:20,280
low information voters. They're only going to convince those people

1103
01:04:20,639 --> 01:04:22,719
with really low tiers because usually it's going to take

1104
01:04:22,840 --> 01:04:25,079
like knowing all the Bible and knowing a lot of

1105
01:04:25,079 --> 01:04:28,519
the Church fathers. And so that's the difficult part is

1106
01:04:28,559 --> 01:04:31,800
the learning curve that's involved, and most of the time

1107
01:04:31,800 --> 01:04:35,519
people are just kind of approaching these hotly contested issues

1108
01:04:35,559 --> 01:04:38,239
with little to no knowledge at all, and so they

1109
01:04:38,280 --> 01:04:42,440
just oftentimes fall for unfortunately very bad arguments. And what

1110
01:04:42,480 --> 01:04:45,679
you're talking about stack whoever quotes stacks the most proofs,

1111
01:04:46,159 --> 01:04:49,400
but the proofs are only as good as the accuracy

1112
01:04:49,440 --> 01:04:51,679
of the interpretation. I mean, I could stack up a

1113
01:04:51,719 --> 01:04:54,920
bunch of proofs from Muslim and Job's witness websites to

1114
01:04:54,960 --> 01:04:58,199
give the impression that Jesus is subordinate to the Father

1115
01:04:58,320 --> 01:05:02,000
and a creature, but you would quickly find out, as

1116
01:05:02,079 --> 01:05:06,440
if you investigated that, that those texts are misinterpreted and

1117
01:05:06,519 --> 01:05:08,760
not in harmony with all the other texts that talk

1118
01:05:08,800 --> 01:05:11,360
about not just the distinction between the father and son,

1119
01:05:11,400 --> 01:05:13,159
but also the equality between the father and sons. It's

1120
01:05:13,199 --> 01:05:16,840
a both and but a lot of heresies. You're actually

1121
01:05:16,840 --> 01:05:21,679
correct rely on actually picking one verse, and that's the

1122
01:05:21,760 --> 01:05:25,159
lynchpin of everything. Every other verse in scripture hangs on

1123
01:05:26,079 --> 01:05:31,360
their interpretation of you know, classic example, Jesus says, you know,

1124
01:05:31,679 --> 01:05:33,639
no one is good but God, the Father. You know,

1125
01:05:33,679 --> 01:05:35,679
there's one God, the Father, et cetera. So that mess

1126
01:05:35,760 --> 01:05:38,880
must mean therefore that Jesus isn't divine, and that's just

1127
01:05:38,880 --> 01:05:42,639
simply not true. Ten full hat, what's up?

1128
01:05:42,719 --> 01:05:42,920
Speaker 7: Man?

1129
01:05:52,039 --> 01:05:56,320
Speaker 5: You got it? I'm mute. Thank you guys for the

1130
01:05:56,320 --> 01:06:00,079
super chests. Appreciate that you gotta. I'm mute, man, Frank,

1131
01:06:00,559 --> 01:06:03,320
I mean Fred, excuse me, fred X instead of fed

1132
01:06:03,519 --> 01:06:10,800
X that Fred, do you want to talk?

1133
01:06:11,360 --> 01:06:11,719
Speaker 7: All right?

1134
01:06:11,840 --> 01:06:12,760
Speaker 5: Fred doesn't want to talk?

1135
01:06:13,079 --> 01:06:13,440
Speaker 13: Hello?

1136
01:06:13,480 --> 01:06:14,519
Speaker 5: Hello, Yeah, what's up?

1137
01:06:15,400 --> 01:06:15,880
Speaker 9: Hey? Hey?

1138
01:06:15,880 --> 01:06:19,480
Speaker 20: You don I was just wondering, do you think Orthodoxy

1139
01:06:19,639 --> 01:06:23,079
is Catholicism for hipsters?

1140
01:06:24,519 --> 01:06:26,679
Speaker 5: I mean, was it Catholicism for hipsters in the first

1141
01:06:26,719 --> 01:06:27,880
thousand years of Christianity?

1142
01:06:30,039 --> 01:06:33,239
Speaker 20: I don't have And also, do you think the drones

1143
01:06:33,280 --> 01:06:36,159
are an attempt to start a cargo cult?

1144
01:06:36,760 --> 01:06:42,599
Speaker 5: Start of what cargo cult? A cargo cult? That's funny. Yeah,

1145
01:06:42,760 --> 01:06:53,079
that was a good one. Fada. By the way, we

1146
01:06:53,159 --> 01:06:56,440
got twelve hundred people and three hundred likes. Y'all don't

1147
01:06:56,480 --> 01:06:58,079
like this dream? If you like this dream, why don't

1148
01:06:58,119 --> 01:07:01,719
you like it? I don't understand what what we got?

1149
01:07:01,840 --> 01:07:04,280
Is it all three hundred likers and seven eight hundred

1150
01:07:04,280 --> 01:07:07,280
and twelve hundred haters? What's going on? Fata? What's up?

1151
01:07:07,800 --> 01:07:09,079
I'm you? Why are you raising your hand?

1152
01:07:10,320 --> 01:07:10,599
Speaker 7: Yeah?

1153
01:07:10,679 --> 01:07:14,880
Speaker 4: Okay, yeah, I'm raising my hand because I'm European, I'm Greek,

1154
01:07:14,960 --> 01:07:21,440
so I tried to be polite. I've been in some spaces, well,

1155
01:07:21,559 --> 01:07:27,320
entering the space Jay. However, I asked in the bubble

1156
01:07:27,440 --> 01:07:30,960
or whatever you call it, the chat, what's the debate

1157
01:07:31,000 --> 01:07:37,280
about I see Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, mostly Matheists versus Jay Dyer,

1158
01:07:37,559 --> 01:07:41,079
and I asked, what's the debate about? Because I couldn't

1159
01:07:41,079 --> 01:07:46,920
figure out. I'm here for fifteen minutes, now are against you?

1160
01:07:47,400 --> 01:07:52,079
Speaker 5: The topics that are listed are the topics of the

1161
01:07:52,199 --> 01:07:54,320
churches and their theology and the religion.

1162
01:07:54,639 --> 01:07:59,880
Speaker 4: So yes, okay, all right? Then if I may introduce

1163
01:08:00,199 --> 01:08:05,599
another religion of which I'm not part anymore as a church,

1164
01:08:06,599 --> 01:08:11,400
but I'm part of it as a as a person

1165
01:08:11,480 --> 01:08:16,479
who used common sense and show that uh, the observations

1166
01:08:16,520 --> 01:08:20,920
not teachings exactly of that man. That man was Ellen Hubbard.

1167
01:08:21,000 --> 01:08:24,000
You probably know him, and I have been into scientology,

1168
01:08:24,600 --> 01:08:25,760
which is another religion.

1169
01:08:25,840 --> 01:08:29,000
Speaker 5: It's an interesting you're the Greek scientology guy. I've be

1170
01:08:29,079 --> 01:08:29,960
called in here before.

1171
01:08:31,840 --> 01:08:35,119
Speaker 4: I don't remember if I was here with you before

1172
01:08:35,199 --> 01:08:36,479
I had you as a follower.

1173
01:08:37,600 --> 01:08:39,479
Speaker 5: Okay, So why why would we believe a guy who

1174
01:08:39,479 --> 01:08:40,960
comes out of Crowley's colt?

1175
01:08:42,399 --> 01:08:44,439
Speaker 4: So sorry, sorry, why would we believe.

1176
01:08:44,239 --> 01:08:46,520
Speaker 5: A guy who comes out of Alistair Crowley's cult?

1177
01:08:47,640 --> 01:08:52,920
Speaker 4: Because I think that the whole debate here is based

1178
01:08:53,119 --> 01:08:58,960
on on remarks by people and not on actual data.

1179
01:08:59,399 --> 01:09:02,279
Well that that you probably know.

1180
01:09:02,399 --> 01:09:04,840
Speaker 5: Okay, so is that is out that I also create

1181
01:09:04,960 --> 01:09:07,119
a cult where it's a grad school to create your

1182
01:09:07,119 --> 01:09:08,279
own cult? Is that true or false?

1183
01:09:10,039 --> 01:09:10,239
Speaker 2: Oh?

1184
01:09:10,319 --> 01:09:13,560
Speaker 4: That's totally false because what I know has nothing to

1185
01:09:13,600 --> 01:09:14,640
do with that Crawley.

1186
01:09:14,880 --> 01:09:16,840
Speaker 5: But wait a minute, al Ron Hubbard went through the

1187
01:09:16,880 --> 01:09:18,920
ranks of Crowley's cult and then start his cult. That's

1188
01:09:18,920 --> 01:09:21,520
what I'm saying. Yeah, okay, so it has nothing to

1189
01:09:21,520 --> 01:09:24,279
do with Crowley. I just okay, no.

1190
01:09:24,359 --> 01:09:28,760
Speaker 4: But but look, first of all, I just don't want

1191
01:09:28,760 --> 01:09:32,439
to you know, either hijack or the space or whatever.

1192
01:09:32,800 --> 01:09:37,439
I just wanted to mention that scientology is, indeed a

1193
01:09:37,600 --> 01:09:40,600
very more promising religion though it has been.

1194
01:09:40,920 --> 01:09:42,199
Speaker 5: How do you know it's true.

1195
01:09:43,600 --> 01:09:46,359
Speaker 4: Because I've I've done it for thirty or more.

1196
01:09:46,479 --> 01:09:49,159
Speaker 5: Yes, you've done it is the proof that it's true.

1197
01:09:50,239 --> 01:09:53,399
Speaker 4: No, No, Look, if you if you want to discuss

1198
01:09:53,760 --> 01:10:00,439
some in the chat topic, if you want to discuss sorry,

1199
01:10:00,479 --> 01:10:03,840
I'm a foreign language speaker, so sometimes I miss some things.

1200
01:10:03,880 --> 01:10:06,039
If you want to talk a little bit slower so

1201
01:10:06,119 --> 01:10:07,039
I can fully do.

1202
01:10:07,239 --> 01:10:09,039
Speaker 5: How do you know that it's true? What's the argument

1203
01:10:09,079 --> 01:10:10,399
for scientology being true?

1204
01:10:13,399 --> 01:10:17,239
Speaker 4: Funny, Well, it's like it's like I'm asking you, how

1205
01:10:17,319 --> 01:10:18,760
do you know the Bible is true?

1206
01:10:19,119 --> 01:10:22,039
Speaker 5: I'm happy to answer that question. I'm happy to give

1207
01:10:22,039 --> 01:10:22,880
an answer that question.

1208
01:10:23,000 --> 01:10:23,279
Speaker 9: Question.

1209
01:10:23,680 --> 01:10:26,039
Speaker 4: Huh, Well, tell me why? Why is the Bible truth?

1210
01:10:26,279 --> 01:10:27,760
Speaker 5: I'll go to that when we when we get the

1211
01:10:27,760 --> 01:10:30,199
answer from you first, all.

1212
01:10:30,199 --> 01:10:33,880
Speaker 4: Right, it's not true. An answer to me, why is

1213
01:10:33,920 --> 01:10:34,680
the Bible truth?

1214
01:10:34,720 --> 01:10:38,159
Speaker 5: Then I'm happy to address that issue, and I'm going

1215
01:10:38,239 --> 01:10:40,840
to use the transcendental argument. But before we get to that,

1216
01:10:40,920 --> 01:10:42,640
I want to know why scientology is.

1217
01:10:42,600 --> 01:10:46,760
Speaker 4: True because for me it has worked. It has worked.

1218
01:10:46,800 --> 01:10:48,760
Speaker 5: Do you think you think that's a good argument for

1219
01:10:48,800 --> 01:10:51,520
something to be true? Because it's subjectively what works for you.

1220
01:10:51,560 --> 01:10:53,600
I could say that about anything. I could. I could

1221
01:10:53,600 --> 01:10:56,520
say I could say that the uh, I don't know,

1222
01:10:56,560 --> 01:10:59,159
the motor oil that goes into my car works for me.

1223
01:10:59,239 --> 01:11:00,880
So does that make it true you as a religion?

1224
01:11:02,399 --> 01:11:05,199
Speaker 4: Well, I think the metaphor is a little bit shallow.

1225
01:11:05,439 --> 01:11:09,359
So let's let's get a little bit of realistic here, because.

1226
01:11:09,079 --> 01:11:11,079
Speaker 5: You well, it's a fallacy, is what I'm trying to say.

1227
01:11:11,199 --> 01:11:13,680
It's a fallacy to say that because it quote works,

1228
01:11:13,680 --> 01:11:16,800
that it's therefore true. Look, yes, I have.

1229
01:11:16,840 --> 01:11:19,640
Speaker 4: Done five TV shows on the Greek television.

1230
01:11:19,960 --> 01:11:21,840
Speaker 5: I don't care how many TVs like I give a

1231
01:11:21,880 --> 01:11:24,119
ship about how many TV shows you do?

1232
01:11:24,840 --> 01:11:27,159
Speaker 4: Could you? Could you listen and not interrupting.

1233
01:11:27,239 --> 01:11:31,079
Speaker 5: It has nothing to do with your TV show productions,

1234
01:11:31,119 --> 01:11:32,840
have nothing to do with weather scientology.

1235
01:11:33,840 --> 01:11:38,640
Speaker 4: The spaces remind me of the TV show Nobody Can Talk,

1236
01:11:39,079 --> 01:11:39,800
Nobody Can make.

1237
01:11:44,079 --> 01:11:47,439
Speaker 5: This is just like crazy person gn what's up?

1238
01:11:51,760 --> 01:11:52,319
Speaker 7: Hello, Jack?

1239
01:11:54,279 --> 01:11:57,880
Speaker 21: Hey, I sent you some DMS regarding this interesting KI

1240
01:11:59,000 --> 01:12:02,199
theology that people been creating on blockchain, and it's pretty

1241
01:12:02,239 --> 01:12:05,000
heavily funded by a lot of prominent tech investors that

1242
01:12:05,000 --> 01:12:06,800
are getting recent notoriety.

1243
01:12:06,359 --> 01:12:08,279
Speaker 7: Because of all the Trump election stuff.

1244
01:12:09,600 --> 01:12:10,560
Speaker 12: So I wanted to bring that up.

1245
01:12:10,640 --> 01:12:12,119
Speaker 9: But other than that, you check it out.

1246
01:12:12,680 --> 01:12:12,920
Speaker 7: Yeah.

1247
01:12:12,960 --> 01:12:16,560
Speaker 21: I have a fortunate of being baptized and raised Greek Orthodox,

1248
01:12:16,960 --> 01:12:20,159
and so it's it's been interesting because I've I've always

1249
01:12:20,159 --> 01:12:22,359
considered it to be the truth daith and I've never

1250
01:12:22,399 --> 01:12:24,479
had to really argue against it. So it's interesting to

1251
01:12:24,520 --> 01:12:27,520
hear the debates and the argument for it. So I

1252
01:12:27,560 --> 01:12:28,680
will appreciate it.

1253
01:12:28,760 --> 01:12:31,760
Speaker 5: Yeah, thank you, appreciate your information there. I'll check it out.

1254
01:12:32,199 --> 01:12:38,359
Speaker 9: Yeah, thanks man, I'm.

1255
01:12:38,039 --> 01:12:45,920
Speaker 5: Blocking that boomer Rick. What's up? People that like like

1256
01:12:46,039 --> 01:12:48,399
that like they just they'll just yap the entire time,

1257
01:12:48,479 --> 01:12:51,199
they'll sap all the energy and the whole conversation, and

1258
01:12:51,199 --> 01:12:53,079
that they'll never listen to what you're saying. They have

1259
01:12:53,119 --> 01:12:54,520
no idea what a debate is. They don't know what

1260
01:12:54,560 --> 01:12:57,439
policies are, they don't care. It's just yapping NonStop. What's up?

1261
01:12:57,520 --> 01:12:57,680
Speaker 2: Rick?

1262
01:13:00,720 --> 01:13:08,079
Speaker 5: I'm mute. I will give him credit. He's the first

1263
01:13:08,439 --> 01:13:11,640
scientologist who's ever come to a space to quote debate,

1264
01:13:11,680 --> 01:13:15,720
even though he didn't want a debate. I'm sorry people

1265
01:13:15,760 --> 01:13:18,479
think that coming to a debate is preaching. What's up?

1266
01:13:18,560 --> 01:13:21,680
Speaker 7: Rick? Hey, how you doing well?

1267
01:13:21,800 --> 01:13:23,399
Speaker 9: I I was.

1268
01:13:23,720 --> 01:13:24,399
Speaker 7: The debate is.

1269
01:13:26,000 --> 01:13:30,520
Speaker 20: What Catholic, Orthodox, biasid Muslims and atheists are religions?

1270
01:13:30,760 --> 01:13:31,760
Speaker 7: Or which is the best?

1271
01:13:33,720 --> 01:13:35,760
Speaker 5: Can you turn your TV down over? I can't hear you, man?

1272
01:13:36,840 --> 01:13:40,880
Speaker 9: Oh sure, okay, sorry, okay, yeah.

1273
01:13:40,920 --> 01:13:43,560
Speaker 5: The debate. The debate is which of these is correct?

1274
01:13:43,640 --> 01:13:47,159
And people from those positions debating each other. I'm Orthodox,

1275
01:13:47,199 --> 01:13:48,279
so I defend that position.

1276
01:13:49,880 --> 01:13:52,920
Speaker 9: Oh okay, well, I got nothing arguing with you about us.

1277
01:13:53,920 --> 01:14:09,720
Speaker 18: Okay, right, thanks, Rick, appreciate it. Warren Warren, what's up man?

1278
01:14:10,640 --> 01:14:11,720
Speaker 5: Warren? G nay dog?

1279
01:14:11,840 --> 01:14:15,359
Speaker 2: War So I just wanted to ask you a question,

1280
01:14:16,479 --> 01:14:16,960
paras time.

1281
01:14:17,760 --> 01:14:19,239
Speaker 5: What is the topic of the debate today?

1282
01:14:20,279 --> 01:14:21,920
Speaker 2: Yes, but they're really this topic.

1283
01:14:22,039 --> 01:14:24,479
Speaker 5: Yeah, thank you for coming with absolutely nothing wrong of

1284
01:14:24,520 --> 01:14:28,279
my good job. Three d Anton, what's up? Go watch

1285
01:14:28,359 --> 01:14:29,479
my videos on the subject.

1286
01:14:35,000 --> 01:14:41,000
Speaker 9: Hey, So I'm not particularly interested in a debate, but

1287
01:14:41,039 --> 01:14:43,800
I I wanted to ask a question. I guess that

1288
01:14:43,960 --> 01:14:51,039
just occurred to me while I was listening. So I

1289
01:14:49,399 --> 01:14:53,479
am a person of no faith, right, and I have

1290
01:14:55,039 --> 01:14:58,560
always had trouble when people want to ask people to, like,

1291
01:14:58,840 --> 01:15:04,880
you know, explain the Trinity, right, because I just don't

1292
01:15:04,960 --> 01:15:07,600
understand it. I think there's you know, like an identity

1293
01:15:07,640 --> 01:15:11,920
claim being made here that just seems incoherent, right and

1294
01:15:11,960 --> 01:15:14,840
any But the problem is, anytime I ask someone to

1295
01:15:14,920 --> 01:15:18,520
explain it to me, they they usually just say like, oh,

1296
01:15:18,560 --> 01:15:22,039
it's it's complicated, go study it or something.

1297
01:15:22,079 --> 01:15:25,279
Speaker 5: But what do you mean an identity claim?

1298
01:15:25,720 --> 01:15:28,079
Speaker 9: Right? So? I mean the claim that you know, like

1299
01:15:28,199 --> 01:15:32,479
Jesus and Nazareth is identical to God and you know.

1300
01:15:32,880 --> 01:15:35,439
Speaker 5: Uh, well, I mean that's the revelation that's given a

1301
01:15:35,479 --> 01:15:37,560
script for us, so right, right.

1302
01:15:37,439 --> 01:15:40,279
Speaker 9: So so I just mean, I just mean, this is

1303
01:15:40,600 --> 01:15:42,439
like it seems fairly incoherent to me.

1304
01:15:42,640 --> 01:15:44,880
Speaker 5: And so why why is it incoherent?

1305
01:15:45,960 --> 01:15:49,960
Speaker 9: Because obviously Jesus has a lot of properties like Jesus

1306
01:15:49,960 --> 01:15:54,359
and Nazareth is finite, he's contingent, he's a human being.

1307
01:15:54,399 --> 01:15:57,399
Speaker 5: Well, those are properties that is human nature, so that wouldn't.

1308
01:15:57,039 --> 01:15:59,039
Speaker 9: Have a So this is what I mean, though, this

1309
01:15:59,119 --> 01:16:00,880
is this doesn't really make sense to me. How does

1310
01:16:00,880 --> 01:16:01,239
that work?

1311
01:16:01,359 --> 01:16:03,920
Speaker 5: Well, that's a fallacy because something doesn't make sense to

1312
01:16:03,960 --> 01:16:05,560
you that it's there for false. That has nothing to

1313
01:16:05,560 --> 01:16:06,600
do with whether it's true fault.

1314
01:16:06,640 --> 01:16:08,760
Speaker 9: But this is, this is what I'm asking, though I'm

1315
01:16:08,800 --> 01:16:09,600
not like I.

1316
01:16:09,520 --> 01:16:11,439
Speaker 5: Mean, I'm trying to answer, and you keep interrupting every

1317
01:16:11,439 --> 01:16:16,119
time I now here we go. Yeah, So why is

1318
01:16:16,159 --> 01:16:19,479
it a problem to say that his human nature, which

1319
01:16:19,720 --> 01:16:22,039
if something is created as human nature, is it's going

1320
01:16:22,119 --> 01:16:24,840
to have the properties of being a creature? Why was that?

1321
01:16:24,880 --> 01:16:27,239
Why would that be a quote contradiction or contrary to

1322
01:16:28,079 --> 01:16:31,479
divinity taking on and having a both and versus an

1323
01:16:31,520 --> 01:16:33,520
either or So your assumption is that has to be

1324
01:16:33,560 --> 01:16:37,600
either or either Jesus is no longer divine and becomes finite,

1325
01:16:37,960 --> 01:16:40,199
and that it can't be both, and why.

1326
01:16:41,520 --> 01:16:44,079
Speaker 9: Because that I mean at that point, you're just not

1327
01:16:44,560 --> 01:16:47,399
You're no longer making the claim that Jesus is identical.

1328
01:16:46,960 --> 01:16:48,840
Speaker 5: To God, right if if he has no he's the

1329
01:16:48,920 --> 01:16:52,560
second person of the Godhead, the son taking on human nature.

1330
01:16:53,199 --> 01:16:56,199
Speaker 9: How that actually works though? Right? So, so like, are

1331
01:16:56,239 --> 01:16:58,399
you making an identity claim here or are you not right?

1332
01:16:58,439 --> 01:17:00,640
Speaker 5: He is the son of God, he is fully divine,

1333
01:17:00,640 --> 01:17:03,359
He's the second person of the Godhead. So you're saying that,

1334
01:17:03,439 --> 01:17:05,159
I guess your argument is that the Trinity itself is

1335
01:17:05,199 --> 01:17:05,680
in coherent.

1336
01:17:05,720 --> 01:17:09,399
Speaker 9: Why, Well, this is what I came to talk to

1337
01:17:09,399 --> 01:17:12,479
you about, right, I Like, I'm just saying when I

1338
01:17:12,520 --> 01:17:14,680
ask people about it, usually they tell me to go

1339
01:17:14,720 --> 01:17:15,680
study it is complicated.

1340
01:17:15,840 --> 01:17:18,239
Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm happy to address and make the argument for

1341
01:17:18,279 --> 01:17:20,399
the trinity. So I want to know first why something

1342
01:17:20,439 --> 01:17:23,239
being one in many is? Why is something being one

1343
01:17:23,239 --> 01:17:24,199
in many incoherent?

1344
01:17:25,560 --> 01:17:29,560
Speaker 9: Because again that that just obviously seems like a contradiction.

1345
01:17:29,680 --> 01:17:32,159
Speaker 5: Okay, because you call it obviously a contradiction. Okay, So

1346
01:17:32,239 --> 01:17:36,079
the numbers, the number, you know, the number three is

1347
01:17:36,119 --> 01:17:38,279
both one and three at the same time. Is that

1348
01:17:38,319 --> 01:17:39,880
therefore a contradiction.

1349
01:17:40,279 --> 01:17:43,720
Speaker 9: That I just denied the claim? Like, I don't think

1350
01:17:43,760 --> 01:17:47,039
the number three, number one. I'm not I'm not a

1351
01:17:47,119 --> 01:17:49,279
numerical realist, right, so I don't think the numbers.

1352
01:17:49,439 --> 01:17:51,560
Speaker 5: It doesn't matter whether you think that it has objected.

1353
01:17:51,560 --> 01:17:53,720
I didn't even ask you about the ontological status of

1354
01:17:53,760 --> 01:17:56,279
the number. I just simply said, whatever you have, why

1355
01:17:56,399 --> 01:17:59,199
you keep interrupting me when I do? Why do you?

1356
01:17:59,279 --> 01:18:01,079
Because I'm using it as an example. Even if you

1357
01:18:01,079 --> 01:18:04,720
think that it's not an ontologically real thing, whatever realness

1358
01:18:04,720 --> 01:18:07,880
it has or lack thereof, it is both three and

1359
01:18:07,920 --> 01:18:11,000
one at the same time. Likewise, objects in the natural

1360
01:18:11,039 --> 01:18:16,000
world have multiple reality. They have a multiplicity to them

1361
01:18:16,039 --> 01:18:18,399
at the same time as being a unity. So there's

1362
01:18:18,399 --> 01:18:21,199
nothing inherently contradictory about something being one and many.

1363
01:18:22,039 --> 01:18:23,720
Speaker 9: So can you give an example of something in the

1364
01:18:23,800 --> 01:18:25,520
natural world that's the appropriate.

1365
01:18:26,079 --> 01:18:28,399
Speaker 5: Any object in the natural world has a unit of

1366
01:18:28,399 --> 01:18:30,199
aspect to it to make of that object as well

1367
01:18:30,239 --> 01:18:32,039
as the whole the parts that make it up. So

1368
01:18:32,159 --> 01:18:34,680
all mariology which is partial relationships.

1369
01:18:34,960 --> 01:18:37,760
Speaker 9: But usually when I try, and you know, suggest that

1370
01:18:38,199 --> 01:18:40,279
to people who believe in the trinity, that's a harrisy

1371
01:18:40,359 --> 01:18:41,680
called modalism, right or isn't it?

1372
01:18:41,800 --> 01:18:44,079
Speaker 5: Or no, I'm not arguing that there's a one to

1373
01:18:44,119 --> 01:18:47,600
one correspondence between the created object and God. I'm saying

1374
01:18:47,600 --> 01:18:50,600
that there's nothing inherently contradictive about something being one and

1375
01:18:50,640 --> 01:18:53,720
many at the same time, right, And so then your

1376
01:18:53,760 --> 01:18:57,119
original contention doesn't work for the trinity being a contradiction.

1377
01:18:57,960 --> 01:18:58,720
Speaker 9: Let me let me talk.

1378
01:18:58,760 --> 01:19:01,039
Speaker 5: Okay, now, you let me talk. You're on my stream

1379
01:19:01,039 --> 01:19:02,800
and you keep interrupting me every time I give you

1380
01:19:02,840 --> 01:19:05,800
an answer to here you go get what's the problem

1381
01:19:05,840 --> 01:19:06,479
with the one of the many?

1382
01:19:07,319 --> 01:19:10,680
Speaker 9: Right? So the issue is when I suggest that the

1383
01:19:10,760 --> 01:19:14,479
relation between you know, the persons of the Godhead and

1384
01:19:14,680 --> 01:19:17,159
the God right, what it might be like the relation

1385
01:19:17,279 --> 01:19:19,439
between you know, a whole and it's compositive.

1386
01:19:19,800 --> 01:19:20,840
Speaker 5: There's nothing wrong with that.

1387
01:19:21,359 --> 01:19:24,680
Speaker 9: And that's not what they're saying, right, that's a heresy.

1388
01:19:24,279 --> 01:19:27,560
Speaker 5: Called motiv No, you're misunderstanding. That's why I just told you.

1389
01:19:27,640 --> 01:19:30,199
It's not a one to one correspondence. I'm saying that

1390
01:19:30,479 --> 01:19:33,319
even in the work that it does, it does know,

1391
01:19:33,520 --> 01:19:36,800
it works to show that there's nothing inherently contradictory about

1392
01:19:36,840 --> 01:19:39,560
something being one and many because it's true.

1393
01:19:39,319 --> 01:19:41,159
Speaker 9: In the it's.

1394
01:19:40,880 --> 01:19:44,760
Speaker 5: True in the if it's true in the shut up.

1395
01:19:45,920 --> 01:19:47,880
It is like it it's an analogy. You don't know

1396
01:19:47,880 --> 01:19:49,600
what an analogy is. You don't think I can make

1397
01:19:49,600 --> 01:19:50,600
an analogy.

1398
01:19:50,199 --> 01:19:53,319
Speaker 9: The analogy, but you just a mission. The analogy doesn't

1399
01:19:53,359 --> 01:19:54,039
work because.

1400
01:19:53,800 --> 01:19:56,159
Speaker 5: It's you're not even listening to what I'm saying. I'm

1401
01:19:56,199 --> 01:20:00,800
saying that it's not inherently contradictory in the cre created realm,

1402
01:20:01,159 --> 01:20:04,079
and so therefore you can't say that it's therefore contradictory

1403
01:20:04,079 --> 01:20:05,119
in any other realm.

1404
01:20:05,199 --> 01:20:07,039
Speaker 9: That's the point I'm as.

1405
01:20:08,000 --> 01:20:10,199
Speaker 5: I just refuted your point. Did you not hear what

1406
01:20:10,239 --> 01:20:13,079
I said? I'm asking can you restate what my argument was?

1407
01:20:13,159 --> 01:20:15,880
Can you restate it? Can you re say.

1408
01:20:15,720 --> 01:20:18,800
Speaker 9: That you agreed with me that this is not actually.

1409
01:20:18,960 --> 01:20:21,800
Speaker 5: I said, it's an analogy, not one to one correspondence.

1410
01:20:23,319 --> 01:20:25,680
Speaker 9: Okay, so then how is that supposed to help me

1411
01:20:25,800 --> 01:20:26,359
understand it?

1412
01:20:26,439 --> 01:20:29,119
Speaker 5: Because if it's not a contradiction in the created realm,

1413
01:20:29,159 --> 01:20:31,880
there's no basis to say it's therefore a contradiction against.

1414
01:20:31,840 --> 01:20:35,000
Speaker 9: On God, I'm trying to understand the cling, though I'm not.

1415
01:20:35,039 --> 01:20:37,239
I'm not saying that it's a contradiction.

1416
01:20:36,800 --> 01:20:37,119
Speaker 7: Right man.

1417
01:20:37,159 --> 01:20:39,119
Speaker 5: If the problem of that you did know, now you're

1418
01:20:39,159 --> 01:20:41,079
lying because you said at the beginning. It was a contradiction.

1419
01:20:41,159 --> 01:20:43,399
You said the Trinity was a contradiction at the beginning,

1420
01:20:43,520 --> 01:20:45,359
and I'm showing you that there's no necessity.

1421
01:20:46,199 --> 01:20:48,319
Speaker 9: You don't get it.

1422
01:20:48,920 --> 01:20:54,920
Speaker 5: You're wasting our time. Yeah, because you're not listening to

1423
01:20:54,960 --> 01:20:57,119
the argument, and you're not addressing what I'm telling you.

1424
01:20:57,119 --> 01:21:00,920
You just keep stating your original position over and over. Yeah,

1425
01:21:00,960 --> 01:21:10,760
he ran away. I didn't block him. He ran away. Joe, right,

1426
01:21:11,119 --> 01:21:13,039
I just want to hear my voice talk and talk

1427
01:21:13,039 --> 01:21:16,479
ARETI believe numbers are real. He argued at the very

1428
01:21:16,520 --> 01:21:20,439
beginning that the Trinity is contradictory and incoherent. By the way,

1429
01:21:20,439 --> 01:21:23,319
if something is incoherent, then by extension it's a contradiction.

1430
01:21:23,640 --> 01:21:25,600
And then he's saying I never said it with a contradiction.

1431
01:21:25,840 --> 01:21:28,159
Itheists are such liars, dude. I can't stand these people.

1432
01:21:28,159 --> 01:21:33,479
Go ahead, But I mean, if you're an atheist or

1433
01:21:33,479 --> 01:21:34,279
is nothing wrong with line?

1434
01:21:34,319 --> 01:21:34,720
Speaker 7: Go ahead?

1435
01:21:34,760 --> 01:21:40,560
Speaker 5: What's up? Joe Hey?

1436
01:21:40,600 --> 01:21:52,640
Speaker 9: Hello? Hello hearing? Yes, Okay, sorry, I was just wondering.

1437
01:21:53,159 --> 01:22:00,000
Speaker 15: Obviously you're orthodox anti papists. Inquotation marks the whole first

1438
01:22:00,079 --> 01:22:05,439
millennium Church had absolutely succession of popes from Peter. So

1439
01:22:07,439 --> 01:22:12,720
I'm just I haven't heard your argument as to I mean,

1440
01:22:12,960 --> 01:22:15,000
there's been a valid pope since Peter, Right.

1441
01:22:16,000 --> 01:22:18,199
Speaker 5: Maybe it would befit you to actually learn some of

1442
01:22:18,239 --> 01:22:20,960
the basics of the positions before bringing something like that.

1443
01:22:21,039 --> 01:22:23,079
I mean, you don't think that we know that? Do

1444
01:22:23,119 --> 01:22:25,760
you not know that there's three patron seas according to

1445
01:22:26,000 --> 01:22:28,560
people in the West like Gregory the Great? Do you

1446
01:22:28,560 --> 01:22:33,159
know what the three patron seas are? No, So why

1447
01:22:33,159 --> 01:22:34,520
would you come with this kind of argument if you

1448
01:22:34,520 --> 01:22:39,560
don't even know that? Well, not necessarily, it's basic church history, man.

1449
01:22:41,159 --> 01:22:43,600
Speaker 4: Okay, So maybe what.

1450
01:22:43,479 --> 01:22:46,560
Speaker 5: Three seeds did Peter found? What three seeds did Peter found?

1451
01:22:48,479 --> 01:22:51,039
Speaker 15: You're saying the three churches room?

1452
01:22:52,199 --> 01:22:53,239
Speaker 12: What was the Antioch?

1453
01:22:53,960 --> 01:22:58,920
Speaker 5: Yeah? And the other one Alexandria. Okay, Peter didn't found.

1454
01:22:59,680 --> 01:23:02,439
Speaker 9: Yeah, Sorry, I was guessing on that third one.

1455
01:23:02,520 --> 01:23:05,079
Speaker 4: But if you could just, I don't know.

1456
01:23:05,119 --> 01:23:07,560
Speaker 5: Give me a yeah. I So, if those are all

1457
01:23:07,720 --> 01:23:10,479
petrine seas as late as Pope Saint Gregory the Great,

1458
01:23:10,920 --> 01:23:12,439
you have the burden of proof to tell me why

1459
01:23:12,439 --> 01:23:14,520
I'm supposed to believe the vatican One view of the

1460
01:23:14,520 --> 01:23:18,319
papacy in the first millennium, which the Vatican now admits

1461
01:23:18,319 --> 01:23:21,119
in the chi eighty and Alexandria documents was not the

1462
01:23:21,199 --> 01:23:22,279
view of the first millennium.

1463
01:23:22,680 --> 01:23:24,880
Speaker 15: Okay, okay, I see, so I was just trying to

1464
01:23:24,880 --> 01:23:26,359
get you to clarify your position.

1465
01:23:26,399 --> 01:23:29,159
Speaker 9: Warm So really the problem is with Vatican one and two.

1466
01:23:30,000 --> 01:23:33,239
Speaker 5: Well, the problem is that your church evolved to have

1467
01:23:33,279 --> 01:23:36,560
all these wild claims like in the Middle Ages, when

1468
01:23:36,800 --> 01:23:40,039
the Dictatus Pope and when I'm Sanctum documents claim that

1469
01:23:40,079 --> 01:23:42,439
the Pope is the world emperor and that if you

1470
01:23:42,479 --> 01:23:44,359
don't believe the Pope is the world emperor, you're damned.

1471
01:23:44,600 --> 01:23:45,199
Do you believe that?

1472
01:23:47,279 --> 01:23:50,279
Speaker 15: I've been raised Catholic? So yeah, right, we submits to

1473
01:23:50,319 --> 01:23:50,760
the pope.

1474
01:23:51,079 --> 01:23:53,840
Speaker 5: And okay, so you think that it's okay for the

1475
01:23:53,880 --> 01:23:55,600
Pope to say you have to believe that I'm the

1476
01:23:55,600 --> 01:23:58,239
world emperor and if you don't believe in that, you're damned.

1477
01:23:58,960 --> 01:24:01,600
Speaker 15: Well, I do believe believe that there's one true holy

1478
01:24:01,640 --> 01:24:03,159
as What did.

1479
01:24:03,000 --> 01:24:04,960
Speaker 5: I just ask you? Why are you changing the subject?

1480
01:24:05,279 --> 01:24:08,680
You said you do you believe what Unum sucked them

1481
01:24:08,680 --> 01:24:10,880
and Dictatus pape say that the Pope is the world

1482
01:24:10,880 --> 01:24:13,640
emperor and that you must believe that to be saved.

1483
01:24:15,279 --> 01:24:16,720
Speaker 9: That's really where I'm at Jay.

1484
01:24:17,279 --> 01:24:22,199
Speaker 4: You you are the leading you I am I am.

1485
01:24:22,319 --> 01:24:23,560
Speaker 5: Can you not tell me where you believe that?

1486
01:24:24,960 --> 01:24:26,640
Speaker 15: I don't know, because that's where I'm at.

1487
01:24:26,760 --> 01:24:28,760
Speaker 9: Is what I'm saying is between Catholic and Orthodox.

1488
01:24:28,800 --> 01:24:31,039
Speaker 5: Okay, So if you go and read these documents like

1489
01:24:31,119 --> 01:24:33,920
Unum sunk them. I'm not making the argument. I'm not

1490
01:24:33,920 --> 01:24:35,520
trying to be mean to you, but I don't understand

1491
01:24:35,520 --> 01:24:38,439
why Roman Catholics always think I'm saying that that this

1492
01:24:38,640 --> 01:24:40,600
is some argument about whether or not you got to

1493
01:24:40,600 --> 01:24:42,560
be in the Roman calol Church to be saved. No, no, no,

1494
01:24:42,640 --> 01:24:45,720
this is about the temporal supremacy of the Roman bishop, which,

1495
01:24:45,800 --> 01:24:49,119
by the time of yeah, that you have to believe

1496
01:24:49,119 --> 01:24:52,600
that he is a world emperor to be saved. That's

1497
01:24:52,640 --> 01:24:55,560
another thing to believe. To be said, that's crazy. Do

1498
01:24:55,600 --> 01:24:58,079
you think anybody in the first thousand years of Christianity

1499
01:24:58,399 --> 01:25:01,600
believed that the pope was a world emperor and that

1500
01:25:01,640 --> 01:25:03,439
you had to believe that to be saved?

1501
01:25:04,520 --> 01:25:06,239
Speaker 12: I have I have to agree with you.

1502
01:25:06,239 --> 01:25:11,479
Speaker 15: It does seem like the Roman Empire kind of push that, right, Well, it's.

1503
01:25:11,359 --> 01:25:14,079
Speaker 5: Not the Roman Empire. The Roman Empire becomes Byzantium. This

1504
01:25:14,199 --> 01:25:17,199
is pushed by the Franco Papal Church of the West,

1505
01:25:17,279 --> 01:25:19,760
not the not the Roman, not the Byzantine Empire.

1506
01:25:21,119 --> 01:25:22,960
Speaker 9: Right right now, I see what you're saying there.

1507
01:25:23,039 --> 01:25:24,199
Speaker 4: Yeah, So what was that?

1508
01:25:25,359 --> 01:25:25,920
Speaker 2: Uh?

1509
01:25:26,159 --> 01:25:31,880
Speaker 5: Two articles Dictatus Pope and unam sunktum okay I will

1510
01:25:33,079 --> 01:25:34,960
and when I'm sang, Tom says that you have to

1511
01:25:35,000 --> 01:25:38,279
believe that the pope is the world emperor to be saved.

1512
01:25:38,479 --> 01:25:40,520
Not just that you have to be in Rome to

1513
01:25:40,600 --> 01:25:44,000
be saved. You must also believe that the Pope is

1514
01:25:44,079 --> 01:25:46,720
King of kings and Emperor of emperors, or else you're

1515
01:25:46,760 --> 01:25:53,840
not saved.

1516
01:25:55,119 --> 01:26:01,680
Speaker 2: Jamie, Hello, can you hear me?

1517
01:26:01,880 --> 01:26:02,079
Speaker 7: Yeah?

1518
01:26:03,159 --> 01:26:04,079
Speaker 4: I just had a quick question.

1519
01:26:04,159 --> 01:26:05,800
Speaker 16: I was watching one of your past live streams, and

1520
01:26:05,840 --> 01:26:08,800
I think you mentioned something about priests that went to

1521
01:26:08,840 --> 01:26:10,720
seminary at the one in New York.

1522
01:26:10,720 --> 01:26:11,960
Speaker 4: I think it's like Saint Vladimir.

1523
01:26:12,760 --> 01:26:16,279
Speaker 16: Would you recommend steering away from churches that have priests

1524
01:26:16,319 --> 01:26:18,279
that went to that seminary?

1525
01:26:18,479 --> 01:26:20,760
Speaker 5: No, not necessarily. I mean a lot of Orthodox people

1526
01:26:20,840 --> 01:26:22,920
have gone to Sin Vladimir, So that itself is not

1527
01:26:22,960 --> 01:26:24,479
going to tell you anything good or bad. It's just

1528
01:26:24,520 --> 01:26:27,399
that there was a period when they got pretty liberal.

1529
01:26:28,039 --> 01:26:29,840
The last I heard was that they were moving in

1530
01:26:29,880 --> 01:26:31,680
the right direction. But I don't know. I don't keep

1531
01:26:31,760 --> 01:26:33,720
up with Saint Latimir's But no, I would not say

1532
01:26:33,760 --> 01:26:38,880
that that necessarily means that somebody's going to be, you know,

1533
01:26:39,720 --> 01:26:45,479
liberal or something. So today we're looking for who disagree.

1534
01:26:45,600 --> 01:26:47,119
So we've got a lot of people now in the chat,

1535
01:26:47,199 --> 01:26:50,319
fifteen people in line. If you're here for frequently asked

1536
01:26:50,560 --> 01:26:53,760
catechumen questions, please do not do that today. This is

1537
01:26:53,800 --> 01:26:57,640
not FAQ day. I want people who disagree. That's why

1538
01:26:57,680 --> 01:27:02,640
it says debate Kathy arth problem was on atheist, So

1539
01:27:02,760 --> 01:27:05,640
please don't clog it up. If you just want your

1540
01:27:05,720 --> 01:27:08,319
FAQ catechumen questions answered, well, trum be mean to you.

1541
01:27:08,319 --> 01:27:12,600
It's just like this never fails the real JSP. What's up.

1542
01:27:19,359 --> 01:27:19,920
Speaker 7: Jay there?

1543
01:27:20,119 --> 01:27:24,319
Speaker 14: Yes, sir, so, uh, you can go a couple of

1544
01:27:24,319 --> 01:27:26,840
different ways ahead of it.

1545
01:27:27,439 --> 01:27:30,640
Speaker 5: Sounds like we're about to have a fight, and you're like, listen, man,

1546
01:27:30,640 --> 01:27:32,439
it's about to go a couple of different ways. While

1547
01:27:32,479 --> 01:27:34,439
here you're going to get a step up and get

1548
01:27:34,439 --> 01:27:36,279
your ass beat. Now go ahead.

1549
01:27:36,279 --> 01:27:38,319
Speaker 14: Well, we can have a theological discussion of more of

1550
01:27:38,359 --> 01:27:41,960
an epistemic one sure, whatever, But so well, first, this

1551
01:27:42,119 --> 01:27:45,720
is really simple. Your boy Dugan claims that Trump is

1552
01:27:45,720 --> 01:27:46,439
the cat coult.

1553
01:27:47,359 --> 01:27:48,039
Speaker 7: What are your thoughts?

1554
01:27:48,399 --> 01:27:50,439
Speaker 5: How is my boy? How is Dugan my boy?

1555
01:27:51,239 --> 01:27:51,399
Speaker 4: Oh?

1556
01:27:51,720 --> 01:27:57,159
Speaker 14: Well, let's just say that was a throwaway description just

1557
01:27:57,199 --> 01:28:00,479
based on similarities. I've noticed you mentioned him a lot

1558
01:28:00,520 --> 01:28:02,039
and certain things that sounded.

1559
01:28:01,840 --> 01:28:03,680
Speaker 5: I mentioned a lot. When was the last time I

1560
01:28:03,720 --> 01:28:06,079
mentioned Dugan? Seven years ago?

1561
01:28:06,359 --> 01:28:10,119
Speaker 7: You that often? Oh? No, it's quite more recent than that.

1562
01:28:10,159 --> 01:28:12,000
But oh really do you disagree? Though?

1563
01:28:12,079 --> 01:28:14,279
Speaker 5: Where are the examples of me pushing Dugan?

1564
01:28:15,800 --> 01:28:15,920
Speaker 2: Oh?

1565
01:28:16,079 --> 01:28:17,239
Speaker 7: I didn't say you push him.

1566
01:28:17,479 --> 01:28:19,319
Speaker 5: You just said I mentioned him quite a lot.

1567
01:28:19,399 --> 01:28:24,479
Speaker 14: So yeah, that's not really pushing though, right. Just uh,

1568
01:28:24,880 --> 01:28:26,960
I've seen you at least three times in the past.

1569
01:28:27,079 --> 01:28:29,319
I certainly don't have a yeah, so again.

1570
01:28:29,439 --> 01:28:31,720
Speaker 5: Podcasts from twenty seventeen twenty eighteen.

1571
01:28:35,520 --> 01:28:36,239
Speaker 7: I'm pretty sure you.

1572
01:28:36,159 --> 01:28:38,119
Speaker 14: Mentioned one Jones a couple of times recently.

1573
01:28:38,720 --> 01:28:41,800
Speaker 5: No, not sure, Okay, So never mentioned Alexander Dugan on

1574
01:28:41,880 --> 01:28:44,439
Jones that I recall, So what if I didn't mention him.

1575
01:28:44,600 --> 01:28:48,439
I've made multiple times clear where I disagree with Alexander Dugan,

1576
01:28:48,760 --> 01:28:51,439
particularly his gnostic chapters at the end of his book.

1577
01:28:51,880 --> 01:28:54,239
So this is just like low tier, like trying to

1578
01:28:54,279 --> 01:28:56,319
poison the well. Crap that people bring all the time

1579
01:28:56,359 --> 01:28:58,439
where they act like I'm a Duganist, which is just

1580
01:28:58,520 --> 01:29:02,039
dumb because I literal really have like countless live streams.

1581
01:29:02,079 --> 01:29:05,319
I literally have countless live streams refuting gnosticism. So to

1582
01:29:05,359 --> 01:29:07,199
come in here and call me a duganus is just silly.

1583
01:29:08,439 --> 01:29:11,319
Speaker 14: I think you're overstating what you know the statement you're

1584
01:29:11,319 --> 01:29:14,800
a boy.

1585
01:29:16,119 --> 01:29:18,279
Speaker 7: So do you think Trump catech rightly?

1586
01:29:18,439 --> 01:29:20,680
Speaker 5: No, I've never made this argument. No, I don't know

1587
01:29:20,720 --> 01:29:23,279
what you're talking about. Next argument.

1588
01:29:23,640 --> 01:29:31,119
Speaker 7: So you and your own Brook had a discussion somewhat.

1589
01:29:31,319 --> 01:29:34,800
Speaker 14: I mean Brook kind of misrepresents Ran pretty often.

1590
01:29:35,439 --> 01:29:37,000
Speaker 5: But oh, so you're an atheist.

1591
01:29:38,439 --> 01:29:43,600
Speaker 7: I am an atheist. I'm former minister. I really want

1592
01:29:43,640 --> 01:29:45,560
to ask you a sincere question. We could talk about

1593
01:29:45,560 --> 01:29:46,439
the like metaphysic.

1594
01:29:46,720 --> 01:29:48,720
Speaker 5: That's why you came with the poisoning of the well,

1595
01:29:48,760 --> 01:29:51,199
the bullshitted dugan because you want to ask sincere questions.

1596
01:29:51,199 --> 01:29:54,720
Speaker 14: I really think I think you're imputing some ill will.

1597
01:29:55,279 --> 01:29:57,640
I'm more of a curious.

1598
01:29:57,359 --> 01:29:59,600
Speaker 5: No, it's a it's a passive aggressive thing that I

1599
01:29:59,600 --> 01:30:01,359
can reckon is right away. I mean I've had this

1600
01:30:01,359 --> 01:30:03,199
a million times. Do you think I can't recognize this

1601
01:30:03,479 --> 01:30:09,319
with your condescending giggles. Yeah, yeah, I'm really insecure. Yeah,

1602
01:30:09,359 --> 01:30:10,560
that's why I'm letting you yap.

1603
01:30:10,600 --> 01:30:14,000
Speaker 7: I mean aggressive. I'm trying to have a No.

1604
01:30:14,000 --> 01:30:16,600
Speaker 5: You're not. This bullshit doesn't work with me, dude, Come on,

1605
01:30:16,880 --> 01:30:26,119
get to your point. No, enough with the condescending giggle. Dude,

1606
01:30:26,119 --> 01:30:28,239
it's just it's just it's just worthy of being made

1607
01:30:28,239 --> 01:30:28,560
fun of.

1608
01:30:30,600 --> 01:30:31,479
Speaker 7: Okay, do you.

1609
01:30:31,439 --> 01:30:32,039
Speaker 5: Have an argument?

1610
01:30:33,279 --> 01:30:35,439
Speaker 14: I was going to ask you a sincere question.

1611
01:30:35,600 --> 01:30:36,800
Speaker 5: Okay, what's the argument?

1612
01:30:37,640 --> 01:30:41,880
Speaker 7: What uses your faith given that you will suffer.

1613
01:30:41,520 --> 01:30:43,960
Speaker 14: And die under the human condition like every other person

1614
01:30:44,000 --> 01:30:45,359
who ever walked the sirs?

1615
01:30:46,520 --> 01:30:49,199
Speaker 5: Is this this is your high tier high i Q

1616
01:30:49,439 --> 01:30:50,319
atheist argument.

1617
01:30:52,319 --> 01:30:55,359
Speaker 7: It's a question about why you choose faith.

1618
01:30:57,079 --> 01:30:59,439
Speaker 5: Yeah, I don't. So you don't even understand my position.

1619
01:30:59,520 --> 01:31:01,279
You have no idea what you're talking about. I believe

1620
01:31:01,319 --> 01:31:04,199
that that revelation is so he's not gonna let me talk,

1621
01:31:04,239 --> 01:31:06,640
He's just gonna yap. I believe the divine revelation is

1622
01:31:06,680 --> 01:31:08,560
the ground of reason. So that's totally different from what

1623
01:31:08,560 --> 01:31:09,079
you're arguing.

1624
01:31:11,000 --> 01:31:13,319
Speaker 14: So you don't you don't accept that faith? Is it

1625
01:31:13,439 --> 01:31:16,399
a somehow an epistemic justifier.

1626
01:31:17,239 --> 01:31:21,079
Speaker 5: No, revelation is the epistemic justifier for logic and reasoning.

1627
01:31:22,800 --> 01:31:26,119
So with the transcendental argument, the very thing I argue

1628
01:31:26,119 --> 01:31:27,359
to your own books in that debate.

1629
01:31:29,479 --> 01:31:40,119
Speaker 7: So all right, I'm sorry constraction. Yeah, so you you're

1630
01:31:40,319 --> 01:31:43,640
what does your your faith offer you? What does your belief.

1631
01:31:43,399 --> 01:31:46,199
Speaker 5: In Well, for one, it offers a justification for the

1632
01:31:46,560 --> 01:31:47,920
possibility of reasoning at all.

1633
01:31:51,159 --> 01:31:55,560
Speaker 14: The possibility of reasoning is not really something that's in

1634
01:31:55,640 --> 01:31:56,920
need of that type of justific case.

1635
01:31:57,000 --> 01:31:59,039
Speaker 5: Well, how do you know that? Tell me what episomic

1636
01:31:59,119 --> 01:31:59,800
justification is.

1637
01:32:02,720 --> 01:32:04,199
Speaker 7: So which part of it you want to know?

1638
01:32:04,840 --> 01:32:07,039
Speaker 5: Well, you said it's not it's not as an apply

1639
01:32:07,159 --> 01:32:09,640
to that, then you would know then what epistemic justification

1640
01:32:09,720 --> 01:32:11,079
is and where it applies. So tell me.

1641
01:32:12,039 --> 01:32:17,680
Speaker 14: Yeah, So epistemic justification is about the positive grounds of knowledge, right.

1642
01:32:17,199 --> 01:32:19,439
Speaker 5: So what's the positive grounds for believing in reason?

1643
01:32:20,560 --> 01:32:24,000
Speaker 14: Well we can go through the relationship of perception to

1644
01:32:24,079 --> 01:32:27,760
abstraction and which one precedes which.

1645
01:32:28,319 --> 01:32:30,039
Speaker 5: How do you know that? How do you know that

1646
01:32:30,079 --> 01:32:32,239
perception relates to abstractions at all?

1647
01:32:33,960 --> 01:32:36,920
Speaker 7: Because of the logic. First of all, there's a logical relation, but.

1648
01:32:36,800 --> 01:32:38,520
Speaker 5: There's also no But I ask you how you know

1649
01:32:38,520 --> 01:32:40,479
there's a relation. You said there's a logical relation. I'm

1650
01:32:40,520 --> 01:32:42,279
asking you how you know that. To tell me there's

1651
01:32:42,319 --> 01:32:43,720
a relation, doesn't tell me how you know that?

1652
01:32:46,239 --> 01:32:49,880
Speaker 14: Because you started to discuss self evidence before.

1653
01:32:50,000 --> 01:32:52,000
Speaker 5: Oh interesting, So how do we know what's self evident?

1654
01:32:53,960 --> 01:32:56,880
So for me, for you, So it's not universal, it's

1655
01:32:56,880 --> 01:32:57,840
just for you, it's objective.

1656
01:32:58,840 --> 01:33:01,800
Speaker 14: No, what I think is the correct term that applies

1657
01:33:01,840 --> 01:33:03,239
to everyone is my premise.

1658
01:33:03,279 --> 01:33:04,359
Speaker 7: You know, I think you know the difference.

1659
01:33:04,439 --> 01:33:05,640
Speaker 5: How do you know it's self evident?

1660
01:33:07,840 --> 01:33:10,079
Speaker 14: So I was gonna say, what is self evident is

1661
01:33:10,119 --> 01:33:11,720
related to direct experience.

1662
01:33:11,840 --> 01:33:15,199
Speaker 7: We don't justify direct experience, so I.

1663
01:33:15,119 --> 01:33:18,479
Speaker 5: Can disclaim anything. So I can disclaim anything as direct experience,

1664
01:33:18,479 --> 01:33:20,720
and on how to justify it? So God is direct

1665
01:33:20,720 --> 01:33:22,960
experience for men? On how justify it? Would you accept that?

1666
01:33:23,840 --> 01:33:26,439
Speaker 14: I would say that the term God is meaningless, that

1667
01:33:26,680 --> 01:33:29,319
anyone who wants to use it as a theoretical object

1668
01:33:29,880 --> 01:33:31,840
would have to lay out their argument.

1669
01:33:31,800 --> 01:33:34,039
Speaker 5: Or So what's your answer to hum? Okay? Then then

1670
01:33:34,199 --> 01:33:38,119
what's your answer to human skepticism?

1671
01:33:38,359 --> 01:33:39,119
Speaker 9: In what regard?

1672
01:33:39,199 --> 01:33:39,479
Speaker 7: You mean?

1673
01:33:39,600 --> 01:33:42,239
Speaker 5: Like you're saying that you just follow your perception. You

1674
01:33:42,319 --> 01:33:45,880
follow your perception of the relates somehow to abstractions. What's

1675
01:33:45,880 --> 01:33:48,359
the justification that any perception relates to anything at all?

1676
01:33:48,560 --> 01:33:51,760
Speaker 14: My process and my view of justification, it would be

1677
01:33:51,960 --> 01:33:59,439
arbitrary to dismiss the basis of attracted from experience, of

1678
01:33:59,479 --> 01:34:01,640
the relation ship of something to its pattern.

1679
01:34:01,680 --> 01:34:04,359
Speaker 5: In other words, that's just begging the question that there

1680
01:34:04,439 --> 01:34:07,319
is a pattern. So that there's a pattern presupposes that

1681
01:34:07,359 --> 01:34:10,560
you're perceiving accurately information in the external world. I'm asking

1682
01:34:10,640 --> 01:34:13,880
for the justification for that. You said it's self evident.

1683
01:34:13,960 --> 01:34:15,279
Speaker 7: How do we know that?

1684
01:34:16,319 --> 01:34:18,279
Speaker 14: Because there's nothing else to ground it?

1685
01:34:18,319 --> 01:34:21,079
Speaker 5: In other words, so that's also a fallacy that you

1686
01:34:21,159 --> 01:34:23,159
claim that you're not aware of anything else to ground

1687
01:34:23,199 --> 01:34:25,119
it doesn't mean that it's grounded. How do you know

1688
01:34:25,159 --> 01:34:25,640
that I know.

1689
01:34:25,600 --> 01:34:26,199
Speaker 7: What I'm saying.

1690
01:34:27,079 --> 01:34:31,840
Speaker 14: I can go on to say, when we start to

1691
01:34:31,880 --> 01:34:35,279
analyze concepts, if we in fact have a system for

1692
01:34:36,119 --> 01:34:38,800
determining what's a good concept, right, we can see.

1693
01:34:38,640 --> 01:34:40,319
Speaker 5: How do you know the system is accurate? You're just

1694
01:34:40,319 --> 01:34:42,640
telling me all these different things, like you're asserting all

1695
01:34:42,640 --> 01:34:45,000
this stuff. What's the system that analyzes.

1696
01:34:44,760 --> 01:34:49,079
Speaker 14: Because the reference the content of the words reduced to

1697
01:34:49,279 --> 01:34:52,880
a perceptual reference, and so when have you.

1698
01:34:52,800 --> 01:34:55,199
Speaker 5: Ever read Vickenstein? You know't know how Sully? This argument is,

1699
01:34:56,000 --> 01:35:01,199
what's the how do you reduce numbers to perceptions? Where

1700
01:35:01,239 --> 01:35:03,079
where in your perception is the number seven?

1701
01:35:04,359 --> 01:35:04,880
Speaker 7: Very simple?

1702
01:35:04,960 --> 01:35:08,520
Speaker 14: Very The concept one is synonymous and reduces to the

1703
01:35:08,560 --> 01:35:09,399
concept entity.

1704
01:35:09,439 --> 01:35:11,760
Speaker 7: We perceive bounded particulars directly?

1705
01:35:12,079 --> 01:35:14,880
Speaker 5: How do you know that you perceive bound in particulars?

1706
01:35:15,199 --> 01:35:18,439
What is the epistemic justification for saying that you that

1707
01:35:18,479 --> 01:35:20,640
you perceive bound in particulars.

1708
01:35:22,439 --> 01:35:27,479
Speaker 14: If you in other words, the the epistemic justification must

1709
01:35:27,560 --> 01:35:29,920
terminate in perception because you cannot get underneath that.

1710
01:35:30,479 --> 01:35:33,399
Speaker 5: So, in other words, because it must be so. So

1711
01:35:33,439 --> 01:35:39,000
it's a dogmatic assertion that you can't justify. You just

1712
01:35:39,039 --> 01:35:40,760
literally restated the original possession.

1713
01:35:40,840 --> 01:35:45,039
Speaker 7: What mean what we mean by existence? Right, we're going

1714
01:35:45,079 --> 01:35:45,479
to stop.

1715
01:35:46,039 --> 01:35:48,159
Speaker 5: So you're just making more metaphysical assertions. I want to

1716
01:35:48,199 --> 01:35:49,000
know how that's the case.

1717
01:35:49,039 --> 01:35:51,560
Speaker 14: You just keep a certain saying I'm saying that the

1718
01:35:51,600 --> 01:35:54,199
content of any concept.

1719
01:35:54,000 --> 01:35:56,359
Speaker 5: Is how do you know that you keep stating some

1720
01:35:56,439 --> 01:35:58,479
metaphysical claim and you don't tell me how you know

1721
01:35:58,520 --> 01:35:59,239
that that's the case.

1722
01:36:02,159 --> 01:36:04,920
Speaker 14: So you know, how do I know it's the case

1723
01:36:04,960 --> 01:36:06,479
that existence is primary.

1724
01:36:07,000 --> 01:36:08,960
Speaker 5: Any of your assertions that you've made in the last

1725
01:36:08,960 --> 01:36:11,880
five minutes. You just keep asserting things and I'm asking you,

1726
01:36:11,960 --> 01:36:13,800
how do we know that that's the case. What's the

1727
01:36:14,000 --> 01:36:16,760
justification for that? And you said it's still fevident because

1728
01:36:16,800 --> 01:36:21,960
of the perception. Is this is reality? Reality? Is that

1729
01:36:22,000 --> 01:36:23,399
what you're saying? Reality is reality?

1730
01:36:23,439 --> 01:36:26,800
Speaker 7: Bro? No, I'm asking you. Let me ask you this

1731
01:36:27,000 --> 01:36:27,399
would No.

1732
01:36:27,840 --> 01:36:30,039
Speaker 5: I've been asking you, where's the answer to the to

1733
01:36:30,079 --> 01:36:32,079
the question? You're not you're gonna ask me a question.

1734
01:36:32,239 --> 01:36:35,880
Speaker 14: Well, I'm not asserting the positive. I'm not saying that.

1735
01:36:36,439 --> 01:36:38,439
Speaker 5: I've asked you for what reasoning is. You're told me

1736
01:36:38,439 --> 01:36:40,520
it's perception. I'm asking you how do you know that?

1737
01:36:40,640 --> 01:36:41,760
And you just keep asserting that.

1738
01:36:42,079 --> 01:36:43,720
Speaker 7: I didn't say reasoning is perception.

1739
01:36:44,359 --> 01:36:46,600
Speaker 5: I said, well, how do we justify reasoning? You so

1740
01:36:46,640 --> 01:36:49,239
there has to be this grounded out perception of objects

1741
01:36:49,239 --> 01:36:51,039
and abstractions, And I'm asking how do you know that?

1742
01:36:52,279 --> 01:36:55,880
Speaker 7: Pretty sure is how you freeze it. But anyway, so, what.

1743
01:36:55,800 --> 01:37:00,039
Speaker 14: I'm saying is that when we analyze concepts, if we infect.

1744
01:37:00,039 --> 01:37:02,680
Speaker 5: You're begging the question because you're assuming that there is

1745
01:37:02,720 --> 01:37:05,279
a meaningful concept to be analyzed and I'm asking you

1746
01:37:05,279 --> 01:37:06,119
how you know that.

1747
01:37:07,600 --> 01:37:10,479
Speaker 14: I told you because I experienced the reference.

1748
01:37:10,840 --> 01:37:14,239
Speaker 5: Oh so you're asserting the circle because it's so, because

1749
01:37:14,239 --> 01:37:17,279
I experienced it, because it's there, because it's substrategical. You

1750
01:37:17,279 --> 01:37:21,279
don't understand that's a circle, your very diagram, your your

1751
01:37:21,520 --> 01:37:22,880
PfP is a circle.

1752
01:37:23,239 --> 01:37:26,520
Speaker 14: That axioms are irreducibly implicit.

1753
01:37:26,720 --> 01:37:29,840
Speaker 5: That that's I'm calling that into question. How do you

1754
01:37:29,880 --> 01:37:30,640
know that that's the case?

1755
01:37:31,039 --> 01:37:31,359
Speaker 4: To question?

1756
01:37:31,680 --> 01:37:32,239
Speaker 7: You want a question?

1757
01:37:32,319 --> 01:37:34,119
Speaker 5: So your argument is there's no way to question it.

1758
01:37:34,279 --> 01:37:36,119
That's that's so dombinude.

1759
01:37:36,279 --> 01:37:38,119
Speaker 14: No, no, no, there's no way to question it without

1760
01:37:38,119 --> 01:37:39,279
presupposing its truth.

1761
01:37:39,439 --> 01:37:40,880
Speaker 5: That doesn't mean that it's justified.

1762
01:37:40,960 --> 01:37:45,800
Speaker 7: So what deny grounds concepts? You have to say? What

1763
01:37:45,920 --> 01:37:46,159
is it?

1764
01:37:46,479 --> 01:37:46,560
Speaker 2: Just?

1765
01:37:46,680 --> 01:37:49,000
Speaker 5: You saying that it has to be that way doesn't

1766
01:37:49,000 --> 01:37:51,159
make it. So it's not a justification.

1767
01:37:51,720 --> 01:37:53,600
Speaker 14: I'm saying that you can't make a statement.

1768
01:37:53,640 --> 01:37:56,079
Speaker 5: That doesn't Maybe we can't make statements.

1769
01:37:56,520 --> 01:37:58,720
Speaker 7: I mean, that's why you deny axioms. So you either

1770
01:37:58,720 --> 01:37:59,640
have no I.

1771
01:37:59,600 --> 01:38:02,159
Speaker 5: Just don't think that there's self evident axioms. So what's

1772
01:38:02,199 --> 01:38:04,079
the answer to the criterion problem? Do you know what

1773
01:38:04,079 --> 01:38:05,000
the criterion problem is?

1774
01:38:07,079 --> 01:38:07,720
Speaker 4: I mean, we can.

1775
01:38:09,079 --> 01:38:12,079
Speaker 5: Do you know what the criterion problem is?

1776
01:38:12,079 --> 01:38:13,159
Speaker 7: The criterion for what?

1777
01:38:14,920 --> 01:38:17,640
Speaker 5: In epistemology. It's one of the most famous problems in epistemology.

1778
01:38:17,760 --> 01:38:18,439
Do you know what it is?

1779
01:38:19,680 --> 01:38:21,560
Speaker 14: I don't know exactly you're referring to, but if you.

1780
01:38:21,560 --> 01:38:24,520
Speaker 5: Want to know, I'm asking you variations on the criterion problem.

1781
01:38:24,600 --> 01:38:25,840
So I'm asking you if you even know what the

1782
01:38:25,840 --> 01:38:26,439
problem is.

1783
01:38:27,119 --> 01:38:28,840
Speaker 7: I don't. I don't know what you mean by the criteria.

1784
01:38:28,880 --> 01:38:31,039
Speaker 5: Okay, so you have been You've been sitting here yapping

1785
01:38:31,079 --> 01:38:32,960
and you don't even know the basic questions I'm asking you,

1786
01:38:33,039 --> 01:38:36,359
which shows that you don't understand the problem. Yeah, right,

1787
01:38:36,399 --> 01:38:38,399
I made it up, right, it's one. It's a pistemology.

1788
01:38:38,479 --> 01:38:39,359
Want on when I made it up?

1789
01:38:39,600 --> 01:38:41,840
Speaker 14: I'm saying, I can't know what you mean if if

1790
01:38:41,880 --> 01:38:43,319
I don't, if I haven't experienced before.

1791
01:38:43,359 --> 01:38:45,079
Speaker 7: So if I go to Japan a guy is talking

1792
01:38:45,119 --> 01:38:46,039
about green, no, it just.

1793
01:38:45,960 --> 01:38:47,720
Speaker 5: Shows me that you don't know the discipline in the

1794
01:38:47,760 --> 01:38:49,840
in the arena that you're trying to speak to.

1795
01:38:50,399 --> 01:38:52,239
Speaker 7: So does that mean I won't be able to answer you?

1796
01:38:52,239 --> 01:38:55,079
Speaker 5: If it does? Yes, it does, because if I don't

1797
01:38:55,119 --> 01:39:00,399
if if modern secular epistemologists haven't solved this. You just now.

1798
01:39:00,359 --> 01:39:03,119
Speaker 7: Learning it or not fealous. I'm not just not learning

1799
01:39:03,119 --> 01:39:03,960
it just because.

1800
01:39:03,800 --> 01:39:05,720
Speaker 5: Wait a minute, you said you didn't know what it was.

1801
01:39:07,199 --> 01:39:09,359
Speaker 14: Now you do saying, oh, you mean if you explain

1802
01:39:09,479 --> 01:39:11,600
to me what you mean by the criterion problem that

1803
01:39:11,680 --> 01:39:14,159
I won't be able to answer a question related to it.

1804
01:39:15,159 --> 01:39:27,159
Speaker 8: Dude, This is stupid, Josh, Dude.

1805
01:39:27,159 --> 01:39:28,640
Speaker 5: If you explain it to me that I'll know what

1806
01:39:28,640 --> 01:39:30,439
it is and I'll be able to answer It's a fallacy.

1807
01:39:30,479 --> 01:39:33,279
If you say that I can't answer it? What is it?

1808
01:39:33,359 --> 01:39:34,960
The t dun't level stuff. I'm you.

1809
01:39:42,479 --> 01:39:44,159
Speaker 7: Hey, Jay a lot.

1810
01:39:44,159 --> 01:39:46,840
Speaker 17: I watched all your shows and uh, your boomer impressions

1811
01:39:46,880 --> 01:39:51,399
are hilarious. My questions kind of related a little bit

1812
01:39:51,439 --> 01:39:54,039
to the prior speaker, but I'll.

1813
01:39:53,840 --> 01:39:55,560
Speaker 2: Try to do the best I can.

1814
01:39:55,880 --> 01:39:59,439
Speaker 17: How do how does it Christian or Orthodox Christian or

1815
01:39:59,520 --> 01:40:04,399
Catholics solve for solesism? I know you say that the

1816
01:40:04,479 --> 01:40:08,119
starting point for knowledge has to first begin with God's

1817
01:40:08,159 --> 01:40:10,680
existence and his divine revelation.

1818
01:40:10,800 --> 01:40:13,880
Speaker 5: Solism is self refuting. You use knowledge is not possible

1819
01:40:13,920 --> 01:40:16,479
in a sense of justifying it if solvetism is true

1820
01:40:16,760 --> 01:40:18,880
and if solcism is true. You could never know that

1821
01:40:18,920 --> 01:40:22,439
it's true because if Solvetism is the case, and everything

1822
01:40:22,439 --> 01:40:25,399
that you're learning is also part of the mental illusion

1823
01:40:26,159 --> 01:40:29,000
fantasy world, dream world, whatever, and so therefore it's not

1824
01:40:29,119 --> 01:40:29,680
quote true.

1825
01:40:31,720 --> 01:40:33,920
Speaker 9: So is it this might be ignorant question?

1826
01:40:34,039 --> 01:40:39,119
Speaker 4: Is it possible? For is it possible that.

1827
01:40:39,800 --> 01:40:42,319
Speaker 17: A Christian is just making this all this up in

1828
01:40:42,359 --> 01:40:42,720
his mind?

1829
01:40:44,359 --> 01:40:46,760
Speaker 5: What I just said is that if that's the case,

1830
01:40:47,239 --> 01:40:50,119
then you couldn't know it, and the knowledge of that

1831
01:40:50,199 --> 01:40:53,000
claim is also unjustifiable. So it's a defeater for the

1832
01:40:53,039 --> 01:40:56,039
possibility of knowledge if Soltism is true. Not trying to

1833
01:40:56,039 --> 01:40:57,279
be rude to you, I mean to you, but go

1834
01:40:57,319 --> 01:40:59,680
look up the critiques that I've done of the Kogito

1835
01:40:59,840 --> 01:41:13,960
or whatever Aiden al Doorbana five dollars. You should look

1836
01:41:14,000 --> 01:41:16,640
up the channel YouTube scripture tradition by Father j M.

1837
01:41:16,760 --> 01:41:19,039
He's Catholic, but he's trying to convert Juice to Christianity

1838
01:41:19,079 --> 01:41:21,319
while he's wasting his time. Because Francis says not to

1839
01:41:21,319 --> 01:41:25,560
converge jus as did the other Vatican Two documents. They

1840
01:41:25,560 --> 01:41:28,119
had a huge row of Francis said multiple times, not

1841
01:41:28,159 --> 01:41:37,760
too what's up man, Aiden? I just bought your metad

1842
01:41:37,760 --> 01:41:39,520
there his book. I'm looking forward to reading it. Thank you, man,

1843
01:41:39,520 --> 01:41:41,920
I appreciate that. James VEGGI five dollars. I was going

1844
01:41:41,960 --> 01:41:44,880
to request you to debate, but like a hero, you

1845
01:41:44,960 --> 01:41:48,680
came through for the people. Thank you. It looks like

1846
01:41:48,720 --> 01:41:51,840
Aiden's having a hard time connecting, so maybe pop back out,

1847
01:41:51,880 --> 01:41:54,359
pop back in. We'll go back to you, Tony. He's

1848
01:41:54,399 --> 01:41:56,000
got a picture of David Hume, so I'm sure he's

1849
01:41:56,000 --> 01:41:56,840
going to set it straight.

1850
01:42:01,640 --> 01:42:06,319
Speaker 2: Hello, yep, hold a, I can't hear you anymore?

1851
01:42:07,600 --> 01:42:08,039
Speaker 5: Sorry?

1852
01:42:08,920 --> 01:42:09,359
Speaker 7: Hello?

1853
01:42:09,640 --> 01:42:11,000
Speaker 5: Yeah?

1854
01:42:11,039 --> 01:42:14,079
Speaker 2: Oh wait, okay, I hear Can you hear me? Oh?

1855
01:42:14,079 --> 01:42:16,560
Speaker 6: Okay? So I have some several questions I would like

1856
01:42:16,600 --> 01:42:22,039
to present to you regarding tag and so specifically, why

1857
01:42:22,399 --> 01:42:24,640
like can we question divine revelation?

1858
01:42:25,039 --> 01:42:27,039
Speaker 2: Because you say that divine revelation.

1859
01:42:26,800 --> 01:42:29,840
Speaker 6: Is the ground for epistemology, you know, metaphysics and ethics

1860
01:42:30,279 --> 01:42:31,239
and reason itself.

1861
01:42:31,640 --> 01:42:34,119
Speaker 2: But can we question it certain?

1862
01:42:34,119 --> 01:42:37,399
Speaker 5: I mean you can. There's nothing stopping you from existentially

1863
01:42:37,479 --> 01:42:38,399
questioning everything.

1864
01:42:40,439 --> 01:42:42,239
Speaker 6: Uh So, like if I ask you, how do you

1865
01:42:42,319 --> 01:42:47,880
know divine revelation is like actually reliable or true? Would

1866
01:42:47,880 --> 01:42:51,359
I still have to present like a justification for that?

1867
01:42:51,520 --> 01:42:54,640
Or because I don't. I don't get how Like you

1868
01:42:54,680 --> 01:42:58,239
say that divine revelation is the ground is the justification

1869
01:42:59,000 --> 01:43:02,479
for our epistol homology, right, But then when we try

1870
01:43:02,520 --> 01:43:06,960
to justify God using the transcendental argument, we're using vison itself.

1871
01:43:07,439 --> 01:43:09,399
Speaker 5: So I feel like that's a category error. The fact

1872
01:43:09,439 --> 01:43:11,159
that you're using something doesn't have anything to do with

1873
01:43:11,199 --> 01:43:12,439
whether it's justified or not.

1874
01:43:16,279 --> 01:43:19,720
Speaker 6: No, but like, okay, the justification for God is the

1875
01:43:19,720 --> 01:43:20,800
transcendental argument.

1876
01:43:20,840 --> 01:43:25,560
Speaker 5: Correct, It's not a justification for God. It's a justification

1877
01:43:25,680 --> 01:43:27,239
for the possibility of knowledge.

1878
01:43:28,680 --> 01:43:31,479
Speaker 2: Okay, justification for the possibility.

1879
01:43:30,920 --> 01:43:34,840
Speaker 5: Of God is the only type of being that could

1880
01:43:34,960 --> 01:43:36,680
ground the possibility of knowledge.

1881
01:43:38,880 --> 01:43:44,119
Speaker 2: Okay. So another question I probably would ask is I.

1882
01:43:44,039 --> 01:43:46,239
Speaker 5: Mean I could make a transcendental argument from a pencil.

1883
01:43:46,479 --> 01:43:49,119
That doesn't mean that God's existence relies on a pencil.

1884
01:43:49,560 --> 01:43:52,479
It doesn't matter what object that you choose to argue

1885
01:43:52,560 --> 01:43:55,880
up from, Like the thing itself is just a thing

1886
01:43:55,920 --> 01:43:58,840
that you're picking. It doesn't mean that it has ontological priority.

1887
01:43:59,119 --> 01:44:02,479
So using red doesn't mean that reasoning comes before God.

1888
01:44:02,840 --> 01:44:07,560
It's just logical ordering is different from metaphysical ordering. That's

1889
01:44:07,600 --> 01:44:10,159
why it's called a category error. If I make if

1890
01:44:10,159 --> 01:44:13,000
I make an argument from time, that doesn't mean I

1891
01:44:13,079 --> 01:44:15,479
think that time is superior to God because I'm putting

1892
01:44:15,520 --> 01:44:16,479
it first in an argument.

1893
01:44:17,199 --> 01:44:18,479
Speaker 2: Oh, I see, all right, thank you.

1894
01:44:19,239 --> 01:44:22,640
Speaker 6: Also another question would be, like, because I know you

1895
01:44:22,680 --> 01:44:25,960
mentioned about identity over time for objects, what is the

1896
01:44:26,119 --> 01:44:29,640
orthodox position of that, because I know Aristotle's theory is like,

1897
01:44:30,079 --> 01:44:32,000
you know, objects are matter and force.

1898
01:44:32,159 --> 01:44:34,319
Speaker 5: I mean, yeah, we believe that God created things with

1899
01:44:34,520 --> 01:44:37,479
natures and that they there are secondary causes, and that

1900
01:44:37,560 --> 01:44:40,560
you know, humans have natures. Animals have the natures that

1901
01:44:40,600 --> 01:44:44,079
they have, so that's why they have identity over time.

1902
01:44:44,159 --> 01:44:47,319
But in philosophy, the problem of identity over time is

1903
01:44:47,680 --> 01:44:50,319
in the domain of metaphysics and epistemology. And that's why

1904
01:44:50,439 --> 01:44:53,720
David Hume called it into question on the basis of

1905
01:44:53,760 --> 01:44:58,960
a pure empiricist philosophy. If pure empiricism or naive empiricism

1906
01:44:59,039 --> 01:45:02,399
is true, there's not a justification for identity over time.

1907
01:45:02,760 --> 01:45:07,000
We don't have that problem because we're not radical empiricists, Okay.

1908
01:45:06,760 --> 01:45:11,079
Speaker 6: And so my last two questions would probably be it's

1909
01:45:11,119 --> 01:45:14,600
another objection to tag it says that it only proves

1910
01:45:14,920 --> 01:45:19,560
conceptual existence instead of ontological existence because like.

1911
01:45:20,520 --> 01:45:23,960
Speaker 5: Well, number one, if you prove that something existed conceptually,

1912
01:45:24,039 --> 01:45:26,640
that's still also a metaphysical statement. You're saying that it

1913
01:45:26,680 --> 01:45:30,199
has the metaphysical ontological status of conceptual existence, so it's

1914
01:45:30,199 --> 01:45:33,319
still metaphysical. But no, the argument is not just arguing

1915
01:45:33,319 --> 01:45:37,199
for conceptual things. The argument is about worldviews. And that's

1916
01:45:37,239 --> 01:45:39,239
why I always make the worldview argument.

1917
01:45:41,600 --> 01:45:44,840
Speaker 6: Oh I seek oh, because like universals must have an

1918
01:45:44,840 --> 01:45:47,199
ontological existence and therefore something.

1919
01:45:47,000 --> 01:45:49,479
Speaker 5: That you're just picking one thing. I mean, you can

1920
01:45:49,520 --> 01:45:53,399
make the argument from pencils, from universals, from math. It

1921
01:45:53,399 --> 01:45:57,319
doesn't matter like which thing you pick. Like, it's ultimately

1922
01:45:57,359 --> 01:46:01,479
an argue for a holistic worldview. It's not an argument

1923
01:46:01,600 --> 01:46:07,239
for universals. Okay, it's an argument for the Christian paradigm

1924
01:46:07,479 --> 01:46:10,319
explaining universals. It's not an argument for universals.

1925
01:46:12,159 --> 01:46:14,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, thank you, thank you, jam.

1926
01:46:14,159 --> 01:46:15,439
Speaker 5: Those are great questions. I appreciate that.

1927
01:46:15,520 --> 01:46:16,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's one more.

1928
01:46:16,800 --> 01:46:22,279
Speaker 6: It's Laurence Bonjours rational a priory insights. Why can't an

1929
01:46:22,279 --> 01:46:25,199
atheist like whenever you ask them, can you what's the

1930
01:46:25,359 --> 01:46:29,680
justification for logic metaphase? Like you present the problem with

1931
01:46:29,760 --> 01:46:33,159
the criterion, right, like what's your epistemic criteria?

1932
01:46:33,239 --> 01:46:34,560
Speaker 2: Why can't they just say.

1933
01:46:34,319 --> 01:46:36,760
Speaker 6: That they have like a rational a priory insight to

1934
01:46:36,840 --> 01:46:38,399
it that justifies it.

1935
01:46:38,840 --> 01:46:42,439
Speaker 5: Well, just just asserting a rational a priori just insight

1936
01:46:42,560 --> 01:46:44,960
isn't a justification, and that's an assertion. So we need

1937
01:46:45,000 --> 01:46:48,239
to know why and how that's a justification. And also

1938
01:46:48,319 --> 01:46:50,680
how does that actually solve the criteria problem by asserting

1939
01:46:50,680 --> 01:46:51,439
that to be the case.

1940
01:46:53,079 --> 01:46:56,520
Speaker 6: Yeah, Bonjour says, it's like a rational force that you know,

1941
01:46:56,560 --> 01:46:59,000
like we have to grasp the necessary truth.

1942
01:46:59,600 --> 01:47:00,439
Speaker 4: Well maybe that's problem.

1943
01:47:00,880 --> 01:47:02,199
Speaker 5: Why do we have to do that? I mean it

1944
01:47:02,239 --> 01:47:04,239
so who I mean again, it's just it's really I mean,

1945
01:47:04,279 --> 01:47:06,680
I'm not saying that you're wrong for bring it up,

1946
01:47:06,720 --> 01:47:10,000
but it's kind of not addressing the question because it's

1947
01:47:10,039 --> 01:47:11,880
quite like if we think about the for those that

1948
01:47:11,920 --> 01:47:14,399
don't know the audience, if we think about the criterion problem. Basically,

1949
01:47:14,439 --> 01:47:17,239
the idea is just this, if I say that I

1950
01:47:17,319 --> 01:47:19,960
have knowledge of something, it doesn't matter what I haven't.

1951
01:47:20,000 --> 01:47:22,840
I have knowledge that I think is true, justified whatever,

1952
01:47:23,039 --> 01:47:29,039
just what true belief? And that also assumes some criteria

1953
01:47:29,079 --> 01:47:31,239
of knowledge, right, because to say that you have true

1954
01:47:31,279 --> 01:47:35,359
knowledge versus false knowledge requires some kind of criteria to

1955
01:47:35,399 --> 01:47:39,039
adjudicate between them. But if I say that I have knowledge,

1956
01:47:39,119 --> 01:47:41,920
it's assuming a criteria knowledge. But how do I have

1957
01:47:42,000 --> 01:47:44,680
knowledge without their criteria? But if I say that I

1958
01:47:44,720 --> 01:47:48,000
have the criteria first, that's also a knowledge claim. And

1959
01:47:48,079 --> 01:47:52,920
so it's a seemingly irresolvable problem. That's the criteria problem.

1960
01:47:52,960 --> 01:47:55,039
That's what I was asking. That goofy atheist guy had

1961
01:47:55,079 --> 01:47:55,880
no idea what it was.

1962
01:47:56,279 --> 01:48:00,279
Speaker 6: Earlier, Pat sure Roderick Chisholm said that methodism in particulars

1963
01:48:00,880 --> 01:48:02,600
they both beg the question, no matter.

1964
01:48:02,399 --> 01:48:05,279
Speaker 5: What, Yeah, exactly there you are. So that's what the

1965
01:48:05,319 --> 01:48:07,439
problem is. And what I'm saying is that when you

1966
01:48:07,680 --> 01:48:10,720
say to try to solve it something like well we

1967
01:48:10,840 --> 01:48:13,560
just kind of have some kind of a priori force

1968
01:48:13,720 --> 01:48:16,800
or whatever, but like that doesn't tell me that that's

1969
01:48:16,880 --> 01:48:21,520
the case, And it also begs the question because that's

1970
01:48:21,560 --> 01:48:24,319
another knowledge claim.

1971
01:48:24,319 --> 01:48:27,199
Speaker 2: I see. Oh, okay, thank you so much. I appreciate it.

1972
01:48:27,279 --> 01:48:34,920
Speaker 5: Sure No, there's a great question. Appreciate it. Thank you, Xenodrome.

1973
01:48:36,439 --> 01:48:40,439
That's a cool name. David Atlas ten dollars mer Christmas Jay, Hey,

1974
01:48:40,439 --> 01:48:42,439
thank you, David Adlas. Appreciate that mery, Christmas to you too.

1975
01:48:43,399 --> 01:48:45,239
Jingle Jingle, jingle,