WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.120 --> 00:00:03.680 I did an episode where I wore blackface. The context 2 00:00:03.839 --> 00:00:08.000 was well irrelevant because it's not okay to do blackface ever, 3 00:00:08.880 --> 00:00:13.240 but slash and there is irony because in this episode 4 00:00:13.599 --> 00:00:16.079 I played an ignorant woman in a liberal bubble who 5 00:00:16.120 --> 00:00:20.039 thought she was illuminating racism by wearing blackface. What I 6 00:00:20.039 --> 00:00:24.079 didn't realize then is that in reality, I was an 7 00:00:24.120 --> 00:00:26.359 ignorant woman in a liberal bubble who thought I was 8 00:00:26.399 --> 00:00:28.519 illuminating racism by wearing blackface. 9 00:00:45.359 --> 00:00:48.320 Welcome to Amusing Jews, where we celebrate Jewish contributors and 10 00:00:48.359 --> 00:00:52.679 contributions to American popular culture. I'm Jonathan Friedman and I'm 11 00:00:52.759 --> 00:00:56.920 Joey Angelfield producer engineer Mike Tomren is working somewhere behind 12 00:00:56.920 --> 00:00:59.560 the scenes. Amusing Jews is a project of a dot 13 00:00:59.640 --> 00:01:03.600 Cover Congregation for Humanistic Judaism, the Jewish Museum of the 14 00:01:03.600 --> 00:01:08.079 American West, and Atheist United Studios. Hey, Joey, how has 15 00:01:08.239 --> 00:01:11.879 technology altered our relationship with comedy? How do we know 16 00:01:11.959 --> 00:01:14.760 when to laugh and when to be outraged? What's even 17 00:01:14.799 --> 00:01:15.640 funny anymore? 18 00:01:15.959 --> 00:01:19.200 We're excited to talk with Jacques berliner Blau, the Rabbi 19 00:01:19.239 --> 00:01:23.319 Herald White, professor of Jewish Civilization, at Georgetown University and 20 00:01:23.599 --> 00:01:25.760 author of the new book Can We Laugh at That 21 00:01:26.280 --> 00:01:30.719 Comedy and a Conflicted Age? Jacques. Welcome to Amusing Jews. 22 00:01:31.400 --> 00:01:34.000 Hi guys, I'm so happy to be here, so happy. 23 00:01:34.280 --> 00:01:36.840 So could you tell us about your background and how 24 00:01:36.840 --> 00:01:38.680 you got into comedy as a research subject. 25 00:01:39.040 --> 00:01:41.879 I was a cut up as a child, obviously like 26 00:01:41.920 --> 00:01:45.159 all of us here, but I was never I never 27 00:01:45.200 --> 00:01:48.760 formally studied comedy. I studied two separate things that came 28 00:01:48.799 --> 00:01:53.159 together and created comedy. One of them was literature, and 29 00:01:53.239 --> 00:01:55.480 I realized literature was kind of dying on the vine. 30 00:01:55.519 --> 00:01:58.680 Nobody was reading. My students weren't reading, I wasn't reading, 31 00:01:59.239 --> 00:02:03.280 but everybody was vibing with comedy over the last ten years. 32 00:02:03.680 --> 00:02:05.599 So I just wanted to take a look at an 33 00:02:05.719 --> 00:02:08.439 art form that was growing, as opposed to an art 34 00:02:08.439 --> 00:02:11.840 form that regrettably was dying. The other thing I do, 35 00:02:12.360 --> 00:02:15.080 what I'm known for, is I work on something called 36 00:02:15.080 --> 00:02:19.960 political secularism, and one of the great deliverables of a 37 00:02:20.000 --> 00:02:26.400 politically secular regime is freedom of speech. And comedy questions 38 00:02:26.520 --> 00:02:30.719 and probes and interrogates free speech laws like perhaps no 39 00:02:30.919 --> 00:02:33.840 other art form, with the exception of literature. 40 00:02:33.840 --> 00:02:36.879 Other than that, which is a really good connection between 41 00:02:37.120 --> 00:02:41.479 literature and comedy. Was it an easy, I guess crossover 42 00:02:41.599 --> 00:02:44.879 into that world? Is Are there similarities between literature and 43 00:02:44.919 --> 00:02:47.520 comedy that go beyond the free speech zone? 44 00:02:47.840 --> 00:02:52.080 Yeah? Because I worked on funny writers. So I worked 45 00:02:52.080 --> 00:02:54.680 obviously on Philip Roth. I wrote a book about Philip Roth. 46 00:02:54.919 --> 00:02:58.960 That guy's pretty funny. I teach courses on comedic fiction, 47 00:02:59.280 --> 00:03:01.759 which is very, very different from stand up That's the 48 00:03:01.800 --> 00:03:03.360 thing I've always got to explain it. This is not 49 00:03:03.439 --> 00:03:06.400 stand up comedy, like writing a joke and telling a 50 00:03:06.479 --> 00:03:10.159 joke or two totally different artistic genres. So I work 51 00:03:10.199 --> 00:03:13.560 on writers like Paul Beattie. I can find the humor 52 00:03:13.840 --> 00:03:16.599 in a book off right. So I was always looking 53 00:03:16.599 --> 00:03:20.280 for the funny written word. So I think I had 54 00:03:20.280 --> 00:03:23.719 some credibility to make the transition. I don't think this 55 00:03:23.800 --> 00:03:26.199 came completely out of left field. I was always trying 56 00:03:26.240 --> 00:03:30.639 to understand why things were funny, and of course that's 57 00:03:30.639 --> 00:03:33.120 how you make them really unfunny. Like when it's like 58 00:03:33.199 --> 00:03:36.639 Freud's analysis of jokes, remember that, and like he's like 59 00:03:36.680 --> 00:03:40.439 breaking these jokes down and you're not laughing. So as 60 00:03:40.479 --> 00:03:44.039 soon as you subject comedy to analysis. I regret to 61 00:03:44.120 --> 00:03:47.520 say you pull out the quality that makes it so special, 62 00:03:47.599 --> 00:03:50.400 but you understand it, which is which is really important. Yeah. 63 00:03:50.400 --> 00:03:53.240 I think the funniest thing about Freud's book about jokes 64 00:03:53.400 --> 00:03:55.479 is that Freud wrote a book about jokes. 65 00:03:55.719 --> 00:03:58.599 He thought he was very funny. I mean you can tell, 66 00:03:58.639 --> 00:04:00.800 like when he pulls out of telling you a joke 67 00:04:00.840 --> 00:04:04.520 and explaining it, it's like, excellent, a wonderful joke, the 68 00:04:04.560 --> 00:04:06.159 most amusing bromide. 69 00:04:06.560 --> 00:04:08.639 You observe that stand up comedy is at the center 70 00:04:08.680 --> 00:04:10.800 of today's free speech controversies. 71 00:04:11.159 --> 00:04:15.000 Why is that? Is something about stand up? Stand up 72 00:04:15.039 --> 00:04:17.959 is emerging as this art form that we have to 73 00:04:18.000 --> 00:04:22.600 think about really, really carefully. I think stand up unlike 74 00:04:22.639 --> 00:04:24.360 other art forms, and I can do this bit that 75 00:04:24.399 --> 00:04:26.959 I always do. Like art forms that don't translate well 76 00:04:28.120 --> 00:04:32.480 to the internet, stand up is like genetically coded and 77 00:04:32.600 --> 00:04:37.879 built to translate to the digital world. Right. So, a 78 00:04:37.879 --> 00:04:40.120 comedian standing in front of a brick wall, it's very 79 00:04:40.199 --> 00:04:43.160 very low tech. Somebody's got a little camera. They tell 80 00:04:43.199 --> 00:04:45.519 a joke. The joke usually last I don't know, five 81 00:04:45.600 --> 00:04:50.000 to fifteen to twenty seconds. Boom, right, you snap it, 82 00:04:50.519 --> 00:04:53.959 you download it. You post and it's there. You can't 83 00:04:54.040 --> 00:04:57.240 do that with ballet. I want to do this bit, 84 00:04:57.519 --> 00:04:59.680 you can't do that. It's really hard to do with jazz. 85 00:04:59.759 --> 00:05:01.639 Jazz this is one of my great loves or failed 86 00:05:01.680 --> 00:05:04.920 jazz musician, and you can't do it with glass blowing. 87 00:05:05.199 --> 00:05:07.920 Like so every glass blower're listening to this show is like, 88 00:05:08.480 --> 00:05:11.639 this guy gets me right. He understands who I am 89 00:05:12.120 --> 00:05:14.800 and what I deal with as a glass blow. Comedy 90 00:05:15.240 --> 00:05:20.399 just translates. I don't know, It's like the Internet and 91 00:05:20.480 --> 00:05:23.040 comedy have an elect what Max Weber would call an 92 00:05:23.040 --> 00:05:27.040 elective affinity. They found one another for better and maybe 93 00:05:27.079 --> 00:05:27.800 for worse. 94 00:05:27.759 --> 00:05:29.959 Something that I think sort of bridges the gap. You know, 95 00:05:30.199 --> 00:05:33.600 my in laws have a XM radio and there's a 96 00:05:33.600 --> 00:05:35.639 couple of comedy channels on there, and it's always a 97 00:05:35.680 --> 00:05:38.000 little bit weird hearing these comics I've never heard of 98 00:05:38.079 --> 00:05:41.560 before telling jokes, but it also sort of works. There's 99 00:05:41.639 --> 00:05:45.439 also that you know, comics unleased show that's now taking 100 00:05:45.480 --> 00:05:48.680 over for Colbert, And I'm also thinking, you know, recently 101 00:05:48.720 --> 00:05:51.439 we did an episode about Rodney Dangerfield and I could 102 00:05:51.439 --> 00:05:53.800 pull out any joke from that book and tell it 103 00:05:53.800 --> 00:05:56.720 to my family and they were still hilarious with or 104 00:05:56.759 --> 00:06:00.600 without the Rodney Dangerfield accent. So there is something kind 105 00:06:00.600 --> 00:06:04.360 of I guess, the tidbit nature of it that that 106 00:06:04.439 --> 00:06:06.120 seems like the jokes work so well. 107 00:06:06.360 --> 00:06:09.720 Yeah, so, Joey, I do exactly what you do. For 108 00:06:09.800 --> 00:06:12.560 five years, I've been listening to those XM comedy shows, 109 00:06:13.360 --> 00:06:16.480 and I've learned that when you listen to a second 110 00:06:16.519 --> 00:06:19.600 tier comedian, you learn a lot about comedy. Like when 111 00:06:19.600 --> 00:06:22.839 you when you hear a stand up struggling, I learned 112 00:06:22.879 --> 00:06:24.879 I'm like, oh, now the timings off right, Oh, we 113 00:06:24.920 --> 00:06:27.199 should have waited for it. It's so easy obviously for 114 00:06:27.240 --> 00:06:29.920 me to say that, not having done stand up. But 115 00:06:30.879 --> 00:06:33.560 XM is this great tool because they've got like five 116 00:06:33.560 --> 00:06:36.040 different comedy channels there, right, They're like Kevin Hart's got 117 00:06:36.079 --> 00:06:39.959 a channel, right. Then there's like some Southern Bubba channel, right, 118 00:06:40.000 --> 00:06:42.519 And I listened to them all. But one thing that 119 00:06:42.560 --> 00:06:44.560 I really get listening to comedy. I don't know if 120 00:06:44.600 --> 00:06:47.600 you've noticed this, Joey, is these guys must have a 121 00:06:47.600 --> 00:06:49.920 lot of heart attacks and strokes on stage. Right, So 122 00:06:50.079 --> 00:06:53.240 you're listening to a comedian and you and the audience 123 00:06:53.319 --> 00:06:56.600 is laughing and their voices are rising. So if you 124 00:06:56.600 --> 00:06:58.879 ever listen to like a seven or ten minute set 125 00:07:00.439 --> 00:07:03.480 like the cadence or the rhythm between where it was 126 00:07:03.519 --> 00:07:06.480 when it started and where it is where it ended, 127 00:07:06.639 --> 00:07:08.839 I just think this would be a great statistic, right, 128 00:07:08.959 --> 00:07:13.720 Comedians that have stroked out on stage, Comedians rushed to 129 00:07:13.839 --> 00:07:17.199 the emergency room. I know that very funny comedian Glass 130 00:07:17.279 --> 00:07:20.000 he had a heart attack. I think it's very very common, 131 00:07:20.040 --> 00:07:22.439 and it's just something about this art form. You've got 132 00:07:22.439 --> 00:07:24.560 this audience in front of you, and you're getting excited, 133 00:07:24.560 --> 00:07:26.959 and you're talking louder and louder and faster and faster, 134 00:07:27.639 --> 00:07:31.399 and then coronary complications ensue, you know. 135 00:07:31.480 --> 00:07:34.959 I'm also thinking about the three Mitch Hedberg albums, two 136 00:07:35.000 --> 00:07:36.680 of which were released when he was alive and one 137 00:07:36.680 --> 00:07:39.879 which was posthumous. All have very different feels. The first one, 138 00:07:40.399 --> 00:07:43.600 you know, sounds very much influenced by weed, I would say, 139 00:07:43.839 --> 00:07:46.759 and the latter two seem like maybe different substances. But 140 00:07:46.839 --> 00:07:49.920 his last one that was posthumous, is like pretty frenetic, 141 00:07:49.959 --> 00:07:52.439 So it's almost like he got more and more phrenetic 142 00:07:52.480 --> 00:07:54.600 over the course of his career in a way. But 143 00:07:54.639 --> 00:07:58.920 also I had a comedy DVD of Mitch Hedberg's and 144 00:07:58.959 --> 00:08:02.240 I remember watching the uncut version of it and seeing 145 00:08:02.759 --> 00:08:08.800 a full comedic roller coaster of him like kind of bombing, 146 00:08:08.839 --> 00:08:10.399 and then sort of picking it up and getting the 147 00:08:10.399 --> 00:08:13.600 audience with him, and then watching the Comedy Central edited version, 148 00:08:13.600 --> 00:08:16.079 which was all of the best hits and really like 149 00:08:16.279 --> 00:08:19.319 singing it together in a perfect way that you know 150 00:08:19.319 --> 00:08:22.079 it's not entirely accurate, but works much better for a 151 00:08:22.079 --> 00:08:22.920 half hour of TV. 152 00:08:23.439 --> 00:08:27.360 Joey, is there like a drug narrative here? I really 153 00:08:27.399 --> 00:08:29.240 do want to talk about drugs and art because I've 154 00:08:29.240 --> 00:08:31.120 been thinking about this a lot. So are you saying 155 00:08:31.120 --> 00:08:35.480 that either weed or cocaine or something was infusing these sets? Yeah? 156 00:08:35.519 --> 00:08:38.279 I mean Mitch Hedberg. I mean my favorite joke of 157 00:08:38.320 --> 00:08:40.679 his is or one of the I can use, honestly 158 00:08:40.759 --> 00:08:43.159 say a joke for everything that happens in my life. 159 00:08:43.200 --> 00:08:45.960 But his joke was, you know, I used to do drugs. 160 00:08:46.000 --> 00:08:49.240 I still do, but I used to too. His first set 161 00:08:49.480 --> 00:08:52.799 very laid back and probably under the influence of marijuana. 162 00:08:53.039 --> 00:08:55.039 He has a stand up bass player who's kind of 163 00:08:55.159 --> 00:08:58.759 keeping the flow going in a jazzy cool way. And 164 00:08:58.799 --> 00:09:01.279 then his second album is a lot more kind of 165 00:09:01.320 --> 00:09:03.799 I would say drunk. He seems like he's a lot 166 00:09:03.879 --> 00:09:07.879 more loose and kind of happy, go lucky. And then 167 00:09:07.919 --> 00:09:10.279 the posthumous album really did seem like it could have 168 00:09:10.279 --> 00:09:12.840 been cocaine or something like that, because he was very 169 00:09:12.919 --> 00:09:13.600 high energy. 170 00:09:14.240 --> 00:09:16.639 So I've been thinking a lot about drugs and art, 171 00:09:16.720 --> 00:09:19.879 so I read I forget the author, Let's find him. 172 00:09:19.879 --> 00:09:23.600 He wrote something about heroin and the New York arts 173 00:09:23.600 --> 00:09:25.279 scene in the sixties, seventies and eighties. 174 00:09:25.399 --> 00:09:27.639 Is it heroin in music in New York City? 175 00:09:27.679 --> 00:09:31.879 That's it Parry spot. The argument was that that drug 176 00:09:32.320 --> 00:09:36.120 and comedy, right, the drug infiltrated the esthetic, right, and 177 00:09:36.159 --> 00:09:38.799 it became part of the esthetic. And then I was thinking, 178 00:09:38.840 --> 00:09:40.559 I'm not gonna mention names because some of these guys 179 00:09:40.559 --> 00:09:45.320 are still alive. Fusion drummers in the early seventies, right, 180 00:09:45.399 --> 00:09:47.480 So if you're listening to these guys their drum fills, 181 00:09:47.480 --> 00:09:48.919 I don't know if you guys played drums. I used 182 00:09:48.919 --> 00:09:52.440 to play drums, right, These are like these massive drum fills, 183 00:09:52.519 --> 00:09:59.120 like right, And somebody whispered in my ear. Yeah, that's 184 00:09:59.159 --> 00:10:02.639 because they had just covered cocaine, right, So cocaine was 185 00:10:02.759 --> 00:10:06.080 driving the sound of a very particular type of jazz 186 00:10:06.080 --> 00:10:09.159 offshoot known as fusion jazz. So I've been thinking a 187 00:10:09.200 --> 00:10:14.039 lot about the way drugs impact art. Classical musicians are 188 00:10:14.039 --> 00:10:16.720 telling me about beta blockers of lane. They get so 189 00:10:16.799 --> 00:10:19.399 nervous that they want to slow down their heart, right. 190 00:10:19.480 --> 00:10:21.679 So I just think there's a great book to be written, 191 00:10:21.759 --> 00:10:24.039 maybe by Joey, maybe by Jonathan, maybe by Mike. I 192 00:10:24.080 --> 00:10:26.399 don't know about drugs and art. Well. 193 00:10:26.399 --> 00:10:30.039 I think comedic controversies and drugs come together in the 194 00:10:30.080 --> 00:10:32.320 person of Lenny Bruce, if you want to tell us 195 00:10:32.440 --> 00:10:35.399 a little bit about him and how he maybe foreshadowed 196 00:10:35.440 --> 00:10:37.600 some of the controversies of today. 197 00:10:37.840 --> 00:10:41.039 Yeah, Lenny Bruce. Look, I'm going to be very honest. 198 00:10:41.120 --> 00:10:43.159 When I listened to Lenny Bruce, now it's hard for 199 00:10:43.159 --> 00:10:46.320 me to laugh, right, So your force fed this idea. 200 00:10:46.360 --> 00:10:49.159 This guy was a genius, right, he was an icon, 201 00:10:49.200 --> 00:10:52.039 and I'm sure he was, but I'm just not finding 202 00:10:52.039 --> 00:10:55.000 it funny. And that's something weird about comedy that it 203 00:10:55.440 --> 00:10:58.000 tends to be very time and place specific. Right, So 204 00:10:58.080 --> 00:11:01.320 unless you know what companies is referring to and what politicians, right, 205 00:11:01.759 --> 00:11:05.120 you can hear the genius and the cadences, and there's 206 00:11:05.159 --> 00:11:06.559 a lot of stuff that he did in his life 207 00:11:06.600 --> 00:11:09.960 which is just non pere right, all right, So Lenny Bruce, 208 00:11:10.159 --> 00:11:12.919 why is Lenny Bruce interesting? Lenny Bruce was in many 209 00:11:13.000 --> 00:11:17.240 ways a precursor to what we're seeing today. Before there 210 00:11:17.360 --> 00:11:20.720 was the Internet. Lenny Bruce didn't need the internet right 211 00:11:20.799 --> 00:11:23.639 to get himself into all sorts of trouble. He's the 212 00:11:23.639 --> 00:11:26.840 classic example of a comedian who makes a joke that 213 00:11:26.879 --> 00:11:31.080 people really really don't find funny, and they get organized 214 00:11:31.200 --> 00:11:34.919 into a coherent block and they try to shut him down. 215 00:11:35.759 --> 00:11:38.080 The case is really really tragic because, as we know, 216 00:11:39.120 --> 00:11:42.159 this eventually led to his suicide. Right, we know that 217 00:11:42.200 --> 00:11:45.039 he was addicted to heroin. But Lenny Bruce would play 218 00:11:45.039 --> 00:11:49.279 clubs around the country and local law enforcement, not federal, 219 00:11:49.320 --> 00:11:52.440 local law enforcement would be in attendance, and they just 220 00:11:52.519 --> 00:11:55.679 be like ticks, you know, ready to descend on a deer, right, 221 00:11:56.039 --> 00:11:58.679 They just be waiting for him to say those words 222 00:11:58.720 --> 00:12:01.279 that could not be said, whatever, cocksucker with it, whatever 223 00:12:01.279 --> 00:12:05.440 it was, and then they were to arrest him. What 224 00:12:05.559 --> 00:12:08.440 I found kind of cool is I read an account 225 00:12:08.639 --> 00:12:11.519 of Letty Bruce in which he was arrested. I believe 226 00:12:11.559 --> 00:12:17.559 it was in San Francisco at nine to thirty, arrested, booked, released, 227 00:12:18.559 --> 00:12:21.519 and came back for like the eleven thirty set and 228 00:12:21.559 --> 00:12:25.120 made jokes about the whole process, right, And that to me, 229 00:12:25.279 --> 00:12:29.279 I was like, Aha, he really is a pioneer, because 230 00:12:29.279 --> 00:12:34.240 what I noticed in like Dave Chappelle's work, or Kathy 231 00:12:34.320 --> 00:12:40.039 Griffin's work to a certain degree Shane Shane Shane Gillis, 232 00:12:40.279 --> 00:12:44.519 is they would bring the controversies that their jokes created 233 00:12:45.279 --> 00:12:50.080 back into their jokes. And that is a really combustive recipe. 234 00:12:50.120 --> 00:12:52.240 You want to piss people off, do that, all right, 235 00:12:52.639 --> 00:12:56.480 make your set about people getting annoyed at the jokes 236 00:12:56.519 --> 00:12:58.960 you made in your previous set. And Chappelle went down 237 00:12:59.000 --> 00:13:02.639 this road for like five specials running, especially in the Closer. 238 00:13:03.799 --> 00:13:06.039 I don't think it did anyone any good, all right. 239 00:13:06.039 --> 00:13:07.679 I don't think it was good for his mental health, 240 00:13:07.720 --> 00:13:11.440 which I'm somewhat I was somewhat concerned about. I don't 241 00:13:11.440 --> 00:13:13.440 think it's good for comedy. I don't think it's good 242 00:13:13.440 --> 00:13:15.720 for audiences to be in this like raw raw mode. 243 00:13:15.799 --> 00:13:19.240 We're like, you got them, Dave, You show those LGBTQ, right, 244 00:13:20.039 --> 00:13:24.600 So that move I believe Lenny Bruce was the first 245 00:13:24.639 --> 00:13:26.799 person I know of who did it. And then there 246 00:13:26.879 --> 00:13:30.320 was like thirty years where I don't think people were 247 00:13:30.320 --> 00:13:33.960 doing it because they didn't have to write comedy. Free 248 00:13:33.960 --> 00:13:36.559 speech was in a place where people could say whatever 249 00:13:36.559 --> 00:13:39.879 they wanted. You could complain, but for the most part, 250 00:13:41.080 --> 00:13:44.399 you weren't going to get canceled. Because of the Internet, 251 00:13:44.759 --> 00:13:48.080 cancelation is now a real possibility. It's almost like a 252 00:13:48.240 --> 00:13:53.240 quotidian work day reality for the American comedian. 253 00:13:53.559 --> 00:13:57.120 And as you're saying this, I mean Chappelle's work as 254 00:13:57.159 --> 00:13:59.519 he's in this loop, as you described in the book, 255 00:14:00.159 --> 00:14:02.440 is also not very funny. When he's commenting on his 256 00:14:02.600 --> 00:14:05.960 controversy and it just becomes sort of a lecture rant 257 00:14:06.679 --> 00:14:10.120 existential whatever, and it's not really funny. 258 00:14:10.320 --> 00:14:13.120 It feels like a political rally. Right now, Chappelle is 259 00:14:13.159 --> 00:14:17.720 a genius. We can't deny that. Right This guy is 260 00:14:17.759 --> 00:14:20.960 a master of his craft. But I think his craft 261 00:14:21.120 --> 00:14:24.159 suffered because he got into what I call this loop, 262 00:14:24.360 --> 00:14:26.919 right this feedback loop where he's so mad at the 263 00:14:26.919 --> 00:14:30.600 critics and the critics won't back down, and it degrades everything. 264 00:14:30.600 --> 00:14:32.879 It degrades the comedy. It degrades the comedian, and it 265 00:14:32.879 --> 00:14:37.200 degrades the audiences. So I would urge comedians. If do 266 00:14:37.200 --> 00:14:40.039 you guys have a large listenership of comedians, I imagine 267 00:14:40.080 --> 00:14:44.039 you do. Maybe they have to learn how to let 268 00:14:44.080 --> 00:14:46.200 it go, right, like really really let it go. I'm 269 00:14:46.240 --> 00:14:50.720 thinking about Chris Rock. Remember selective outrage? Remember that, and 270 00:14:51.000 --> 00:14:54.960 everybody is waiting for him to talk about Will Smith. Everyone, right. 271 00:14:55.279 --> 00:14:58.519 I thought what was cool about selective outrage is the 272 00:14:58.559 --> 00:15:02.879 punch was the last, last, last joke, right. He did 273 00:15:02.919 --> 00:15:06.279 not spend his entire set complaining about being punched in 274 00:15:06.360 --> 00:15:09.360 the face in front of like a billion people, and 275 00:15:09.399 --> 00:15:11.240 it was a great line. You know, people ask me 276 00:15:11.320 --> 00:15:14.840 why didn't punch them back? Right? Pause? Right? Because my 277 00:15:14.960 --> 00:15:17.360 parents taught me don't fight in front of white people. 278 00:15:17.440 --> 00:15:22.480 I'm paraphrasing, obviously. I mean that is that smoked the room. 279 00:15:22.559 --> 00:15:25.080 The room's going crazy. He drops the microphone. He literally 280 00:15:25.159 --> 00:15:28.120 dropped the microphone and out. So I think Chris Rock 281 00:15:28.360 --> 00:15:33.480 understood the deformation to one's art that will occur if 282 00:15:33.519 --> 00:15:35.960 one becomes obsessed by their own controversies. 283 00:15:36.159 --> 00:15:39.960 Is it possible to separate comedians from their comedy stand ups? 284 00:15:40.080 --> 00:15:42.120 No? I mean, like you know stand ups that are 285 00:15:42.200 --> 00:15:44.960 like right there, right in front of you, in their 286 00:15:45.000 --> 00:15:47.799 own body, under their own name. I'm sure there have 287 00:15:47.840 --> 00:15:50.159 been stand ups that go in a kind of drag 288 00:15:50.279 --> 00:15:53.840 or in costumes under stage names, and nobody actually knows 289 00:15:53.879 --> 00:15:55.559 who they are. I think stand up is a very 290 00:15:55.600 --> 00:16:00.440 interesting art form in that it's so embodied, like it's 291 00:16:00.639 --> 00:16:04.519 your physical body, it's often your name. You know, a 292 00:16:04.639 --> 00:16:07.960 stand up usually will begin by making a derogatory reference 293 00:16:08.000 --> 00:16:10.960 to their own body. Right. I once saw a guy 294 00:16:11.000 --> 00:16:13.440 with a T shirt. He was this humongous guy, right, 295 00:16:14.000 --> 00:16:16.759 and he had a T shirt that said dilfh on it, 296 00:16:16.919 --> 00:16:18.799 and it just just cracking me up. I don't know why. 297 00:16:18.840 --> 00:16:20.600 It was just so funny, right, it was like some 298 00:16:20.639 --> 00:16:23.519 second tier communient. It said dilf right, and he was 299 00:16:23.559 --> 00:16:26.360 just talking about his body. The entire set. Is he 300 00:16:26.480 --> 00:16:30.840 the same person as his persona? No, right, the persona 301 00:16:31.679 --> 00:16:34.919 is this thing he radiates for fifteen or ten minutes 302 00:16:34.960 --> 00:16:37.320 on stage. Right, the person is the guy who goes 303 00:16:37.320 --> 00:16:39.720 home and you know, smokes grass and you know has 304 00:16:39.759 --> 00:16:43.639 a family. But there's this Venn diagram like overlap in 305 00:16:43.720 --> 00:16:48.360 stand up comedy, which makes it a very volatile and 306 00:16:48.679 --> 00:16:51.960 I think fascinating art form. Right, I'd love to spend 307 00:16:52.039 --> 00:16:55.039 ten years right studying the mechanics of stand up, but 308 00:16:55.120 --> 00:16:57.600 unfortunately I've got other projects in the works. 309 00:16:57.799 --> 00:17:01.679 There are examples like Dame ed Nah and Tony Clifton, right, 310 00:17:01.759 --> 00:17:05.519 who are alter egos for comedians. But I think even 311 00:17:05.640 --> 00:17:08.920 someone like Don Rickles, who would you know say that 312 00:17:09.359 --> 00:17:11.319 when he goes on stage and he's the biggest jerk 313 00:17:11.359 --> 00:17:14.279 in the world, it's just an act, and that you know, 314 00:17:14.359 --> 00:17:17.920 his friends and acquaintances would confirm that he was a 315 00:17:17.960 --> 00:17:20.599 really nice guy otherwise, Right, I don't know if there's 316 00:17:20.640 --> 00:17:25.240 that same differentiation now because of social media and everybody's 317 00:17:25.279 --> 00:17:31.279 sort of presenting themselves in their character online as a brand, you. 318 00:17:31.240 --> 00:17:35.079 Know, really good point. I think the the energy or 319 00:17:35.119 --> 00:17:37.960 the torque of social media is like be yourself, right, 320 00:17:38.039 --> 00:17:40.720 be who you are and post a lot. I think 321 00:17:40.759 --> 00:17:45.319 that's really also bad for comedians, This this bottomless pit 322 00:17:46.200 --> 00:17:49.640 of talking about the self and promoting the self. I mean, 323 00:17:49.640 --> 00:17:52.440 I have two sons that are artists and one of 324 00:17:52.440 --> 00:17:55.200 them is a musician. He's always posting these little snippets 325 00:17:55.240 --> 00:17:56.640 of his I'm like, you didn't need the post that 326 00:17:56.680 --> 00:17:58.599 it wasn't that good, dude. I mean, it was fine, 327 00:17:58.920 --> 00:18:02.200 You've done better. But as he explains it to me, 328 00:18:02.200 --> 00:18:04.400 he's like, that's what we all do, right, we all 329 00:18:04.480 --> 00:18:07.400 play and we take like the best thirty forty seconds 330 00:18:07.400 --> 00:18:11.200 and we do a little Instagram. Right. Here's something that's interesting. 331 00:18:11.519 --> 00:18:14.440 I was reading about a South African comedian who walked 332 00:18:14.440 --> 00:18:16.599 into the biggest comedy club in South Africa. I guess 333 00:18:16.640 --> 00:18:19.880 it was in Pretoria or Johannesburg, and he had like 334 00:18:19.960 --> 00:18:22.680 a tape and he was like, sir, here's my tape. 335 00:18:22.680 --> 00:18:23.960 And the guy said, I don't want to see your tape, 336 00:18:23.960 --> 00:18:25.480 show me your Instagram. I want to see how many 337 00:18:25.480 --> 00:18:28.720 followers you have. That's really interesting, right, and he had 338 00:18:28.759 --> 00:18:30.680 like ten thousand followers. Said okay, you get a five 339 00:18:30.680 --> 00:18:34.799 minute spot. And I think that's the way the technology 340 00:18:34.839 --> 00:18:38.960 is changing the art form, probably not for the better. Right. 341 00:18:39.559 --> 00:18:43.319 So there's this relentless pressure on artists in so many fields, 342 00:18:43.319 --> 00:18:47.839 even the glassblowers who we mentioned earlier, right to show 343 00:18:47.920 --> 00:18:51.079 the world that they have all these followers. Right. I've 344 00:18:51.119 --> 00:18:53.920 been stuck on like one thousand, five hundred Twitter followers 345 00:18:54.039 --> 00:18:57.039 like eight years, and I wear it like a badge. 346 00:18:57.039 --> 00:18:59.640 Of honor, right, like I cannot get past one thousand 347 00:18:59.680 --> 00:19:03.039 and five. Und I feel I'm doing something right, right, 348 00:19:03.079 --> 00:19:05.559 I mean, twelve hundred of them are like bots anyhow. Right, 349 00:19:05.599 --> 00:19:08.200 So to those three hundred people, I salute you, and 350 00:19:08.279 --> 00:19:11.880 to the four or five billion that aren't following me, 351 00:19:11.960 --> 00:19:15.160 I salute you as well. Right, you validate, you validate 352 00:19:15.160 --> 00:19:16.359 what I do my project. 353 00:19:16.440 --> 00:19:20.039 I was watching a lecture by an art historian today 354 00:19:20.079 --> 00:19:23.440 talking about how, you know, back in the day Picasso 355 00:19:23.680 --> 00:19:26.720 and Michael Langelo and all the greats, they didn't need 356 00:19:26.720 --> 00:19:30.519 that kind of nonsense. And maybe, as he was saying, 357 00:19:30.559 --> 00:19:34.119 you know, if they had to kind of post like 358 00:19:34.599 --> 00:19:37.599 process images of their work or whatever, it would have 359 00:19:37.559 --> 00:19:39.200 gotten in the way of the actual artwork. 360 00:19:39.880 --> 00:19:43.720 But you think, I'm like JD. Salinger, even Philip Roth. 361 00:19:43.799 --> 00:19:47.039 I mean, so many writers that I studied just did 362 00:19:47.119 --> 00:19:49.799 not want to be in the public eye. And probably 363 00:19:49.839 --> 00:19:55.240 what they understood is that's that's crack cocaine. That's dangerous 364 00:19:55.240 --> 00:19:58.160 stuff right being out, and it's bad for my art. 365 00:19:58.680 --> 00:20:00.880 But I don't think the young general of artists as 366 00:20:00.960 --> 00:20:05.359 much of a choice, and that's a problem, that's a 367 00:20:05.400 --> 00:20:06.039 real problem. 368 00:20:06.839 --> 00:20:10.319 Enjoining the show click like and subscribe. What is the 369 00:20:10.480 --> 00:20:13.880 pre digital liberal free speech consensus and how has it 370 00:20:14.039 --> 00:20:15.880 challenged in our social media world. 371 00:20:16.039 --> 00:20:17.720 Yeah, that was the part of the book where imagine 372 00:20:17.759 --> 00:20:19.759 a lot of the comedians would be like blah blah 373 00:20:19.759 --> 00:20:22.000 blah blah. Like they were just like like, if comedians 374 00:20:22.039 --> 00:20:25.240 were reading this, they might tune out there because I 375 00:20:25.279 --> 00:20:29.880 had to work through a lot of jurisprudence and Supreme 376 00:20:29.920 --> 00:20:33.079 Court cases, and that comes from the research I did 377 00:20:33.079 --> 00:20:37.680 on political secularism. Suffice to say that between nineteen fifty 378 00:20:37.720 --> 00:20:40.319 seven to like nineteen sixty five, there was a tectonic 379 00:20:40.400 --> 00:20:43.960 shift in how we thought about free speech in the 380 00:20:44.079 --> 00:20:48.480 United States, and like the gates opened and Visa the comedy. 381 00:20:48.920 --> 00:20:54.279 The idea was, it's just a goddamn joke. If you 382 00:20:54.400 --> 00:20:57.240 don't like it, don't purchase it, or don't go to 383 00:20:57.279 --> 00:21:01.279 the club. Let it live, let it breathe, even if 384 00:21:01.359 --> 00:21:05.920 it's offensive, Let it live, let it breathe. Right, A 385 00:21:06.079 --> 00:21:09.400 strong democracy And now we're going back to John suit 386 00:21:09.480 --> 00:21:11.960 Mill on liberty and a Meal Dirk on right. A 387 00:21:12.000 --> 00:21:18.039 democracy thrives when it can process or it can absorb 388 00:21:19.200 --> 00:21:22.839 really bad, mean spirited jokes. Right, And that's in the 389 00:21:22.880 --> 00:21:26.920 pre digital age, and I think that law was commensurate 390 00:21:27.000 --> 00:21:29.640 with the age. It made a lot of sense, right, 391 00:21:30.279 --> 00:21:32.640 But now we have this new technology, and as I 392 00:21:32.680 --> 00:21:35.480 read reviews of my book, a lot of folks are 393 00:21:35.519 --> 00:21:39.039 not comfortable with what I'm saying. Right. What I'm saying 394 00:21:39.079 --> 00:21:43.160 is this new technology means we might have to rethink 395 00:21:43.799 --> 00:21:47.240 some of our free speech givens. Right. Why Because with 396 00:21:47.359 --> 00:21:50.960 this new technology, you can make a joke about Jews 397 00:21:51.200 --> 00:21:54.359 or Palestinians, and you can make this joke about Jews 398 00:21:54.359 --> 00:21:56.559 are Palestinians and in a part of the world where 399 00:21:56.559 --> 00:22:02.119 they're a minority, and in really bad repercussions can can 400 00:22:02.440 --> 00:22:05.599 ensue from your joke, right, because it's out there and 401 00:22:05.599 --> 00:22:08.279