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Speaker 1: I got to tell you, this book right here is

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so fascinating to me. And it's not because I love

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my history, but I believe that we're going to learn

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a lot about our present day government, people, and everything

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around us because of the writings of these two right here,

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Abraham Lincoln and Frederick Douglass. And you guys have done

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the hard work by bringing it together for us to

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have a study piece.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you so much. We've been really excited about

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this book and we think it has a lot to

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say for modern America.

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Speaker 1: In what way did you feel, because I know what

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I have felt over the past three to four weeks,

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and it feels like we're crashing. But yet when you

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have a book like this, it's telling me, have hope, buddy,

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have hope. There's things that you're not seeing, recognize them.

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Speaker 2: So Frederick Douglass was one of Lincoln's greatest critics. At

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the beginning of the Civil War, he wrote editorials and

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gave speeches that were highly critical of Lincoln and for Douglas,

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he was upset that Lincoln was not moving quickly towards emancipation,

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black freedom, and black political rights. But over the course

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of the war, these two men met three times, and

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in those meetings they developed a relationship together. In fact,

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by the end of the Civil War, Douglas would consider

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Lincoln a friend, and Lincoln said the same about Douglas.

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When they met for the first time in August of

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eighteen sixty three, Douglas went to the White House ready

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to confront Lincoln about some of the issues that were

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frustrating him. And Douglas didn't know if he would be

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welcomed into the White House or turned away. But Douglas

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was welcomed in. Lincoln took him by the hand, and

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Lincoln and Douglas sat down together, and the President of

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the United States listened to a black man as he

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offered his criticism of Lincoln's policies, and Douglas was astounded

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by the fact that Lincoln listened to him and actually

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took into account what he had to say. And I

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think that's a model that modern Americans can look to

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that here were two guys who disagreed with each other

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vehemently about certain political issues, but they were willing to

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engage in conversation and even change each other's minds.

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Speaker 1: Well, the one thing that I picked up on this book,

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you two is the fact that I really called it

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a Beatles moment of that generation because it was something

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that was unheard of and it was something that changed

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the generations to follow. It was huge, and now you're

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putting it in print, so we can sit there and say,

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oh my god, I had no idea.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Watching Douglas give this more or less play by play

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commentary as she spans Lincoln's lives, at least the first

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time Lincoln comes to his mind is in eighteen fifty eight,

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during the famous Lincoln Douglas debates. He comments on the

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speech was known as the House Divided Speech in June

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of eighteen fifty eight against the sitting incumbent Illinois Senator

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Stephen A. Douglas the most important and powerful Democrat, not

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Democrat is the most important politician. Throughout the decade of

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the eighteen fifties, Douglas starts commenting on Lincoln in his

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own writings and newspapers, letters, speeches, and in a later

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his third autobiography in the eighteen eighties. He starts commenting

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in eighteen fifty eight in our book chronicles this conversation

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or actually just this commentary. For more than thirty years

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up until through eighteen ninety four, a year before Douglas dies.

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So Lincoln is on Douglas's mind this whole time because

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to understand Lincoln and to assess Lincoln isn't a way

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to understand America. And so it's a fabulous book in

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this regard, in terms of watching a great orator, Frederick

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Douglass comment on another great orator, the guy who set

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the gold standard for political oratory, Abraham Lincoln, and commenting

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not just on his speeches but on his actions as president.

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Speaker 1: Please do not Move. There's more with Lucas E. Morrill

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and Jonathan W. White coming up next. The name of

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the book, Measuring the Man. The writings of Frederick Douglas

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on Abraham Lincoln from Lucas E. Morrill and Jonathan W. White.

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This is the type of book that I wish my

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father was here today so I could sit down and

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talk to him about it, because coming from the different

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generations that he and I did, he was always open

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about talking about history such as this, because here's the thing.

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In our present day, we've got a situation of misunderstanding.

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There's a lot of people that don't understand what's going on,

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so they write their own story. But with a book

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called Measuring the Man, you're giving us the opportunity of well,

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they did it back in eighteen fifty eight, why can't

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we do it today and just sit down and listen.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and we chose that title very carefully. We didn't

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want people to think this book as a hagiography. But

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as Lucas often says, it's also not a hit piece.

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This is Frederick Douglas carefully thinking about Lincoln as a

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leader and evaluating him over time. And Douglas repeatedly says

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in speeches, we black people we measured Lincoln, we took

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measure of him, and sometimes Lincoln came up short in

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their minds, and sometimes Lincoln measured up. But throughout it,

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Douglas is making a good faith effort, I think, to

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try to understand Lincoln. And Douglas comes over time to

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appreciate Lincoln. He comes to see the political constraints that

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Lincoln faced. He comes to see that if Lincoln had

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been more radical in the beginning like Douglas wanted him

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to be, that Lincoln wouldn't have been successful. And so

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in a sense, you almost have Douglas also measuring himself

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as he's thinking about Lincoln over these thirty or forty years.

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Speaker 1: Were you guys two kids in a candy store when

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you came across those undated drafts of speeches? Because I mean,

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maybe it's because I'm such a writing horror and history

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horror that it's like if I would have had just anywhere,

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if I was inches within it, my eyes would be

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so fixed to the writing that I would have to

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study the penmanship to find out if it's authentic. And

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I can feel that in writing.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Jonathan and I we were actually treading notes and

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had our computers and laptop pop while we're talking to

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each other, because we're looking at the One thing our

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anthology does is we don't trust anybody else's accounts of

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what Douglas said. We went where it was available extent,

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you know, holograph and manuscripts. We looked at those, and

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then we had to get used to how Frederick Douglass wrote.

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And here's an interesting one. How he spelled things ease

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and eyes. He would transpose all the time. And we

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were on like, do we want to keep that, we

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want to correct Douglas, et cetera. And so we did

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what we could to make this the most faithful reissuing

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of what Douglas actually wrote in his own hand. Didn't

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trust the newspapers. We realized a lot of the editions

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now gave titles to speeches that Douglas did not give

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titles to his most famous speech, eighteen fifty two July. Well,

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it's called to the Slavers of the fourth of July.

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It was delivered on July fifth. That's not a title

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that he gave his speech, but it's a quote from

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the speech. And so yeah, kids in the candy shop,

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for sure, But let me tell you, this was in candy.

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This was I mean, this was real stuff, real food

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for real people. As we dug into Douglas's political thought,

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as he was measuring Lincoln's political thought and then evolving

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over time, and his appreciation for the great Amanstader.

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Speaker 1: You guys bring up so much information here, And I've

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got to ask you about Frederick Douglas in the way

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of as he continued to appreciate Abraham Lincoln. Was it

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out of empathy compassion or was it that he was

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able to look at his own bias and say, calm down,

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there's a story here and we're going to learn from it.

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So this nation can grow forward.

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Speaker 2: I think that Douglas came to understand that Lincoln was

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a great statesman. And for most of the war, for Douglas,

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he's frustrated that Lincoln is just too slow when it

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comes to emancipation and not doing enough for black political rights.

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But as Douglas began to look at the broader picture,

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he sees that Lincoln was able to accomplish great things.

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And for the rest of his life Douglas will point

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to that, and Douglas loved to point to his personal

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interactions with Lincoln. In speech after speech Lincoln, Douglas would

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talk about how Lincoln treated Douglas well when he came

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to the White House. And for Douglas, I think that

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him saying to white America in reconstruction and Jim crowed eras,

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you need to be like Lincoln, look to Lincoln as

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your model.

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Speaker 1: Ye yeah, God, ten minutes with you guys is not enough.

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Do you have a website where people can go and

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is unaudible? Is it your voices so that I can

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really dive into these words and get your inflection.

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Speaker 2: The book is available anywhere good books are sold. It's

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on Amazon and all the BNN and all the other

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websites we are on social media if people want to

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follow us, Lucas is actually Lincoln Douglas on X and

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on Civil War John. We don't have it on audio yet,

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but that's something we need to look into.

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Speaker 1: My sister Margaret is a fanatic when it comes to

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the Civil War, and when I told her about this book,

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you have no idea what it did to her soul.

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She just feels like that she's going to have something

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that nobody before her generation has ever held on to.

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Speaker 2: That's wonderful to hear.

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Speaker 1: Well, you guys have got to come back to this

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show anytime in the future. I love where your heart is.

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I believe in history, and I believe it is today. Well,

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thank you so much for having us be brilliant today.

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Speaker 3: Okay, we'll do