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Play for 24 00:00:55.119 --> 00:00:55.960 free right now? 25 00:00:56.159 --> 00:00:57.119 Are you feeling lucky? 26 00:00:57.159 --> 00:00:57.320 Nope? 27 00:00:57.439 --> 00:00:58.079 Ne necessary boid. 28 00:00:58.079 --> 00:01:03.479 We're gona be my law eighteen plus terms and conditions plus. 29 00:01:08.560 --> 00:01:12.000 You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking 30 00:01:12.079 --> 00:01:15.120 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 31 00:01:15.200 --> 00:01:22.480 written about them Geese, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every 32 00:01:22.519 --> 00:01:26.200 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 33 00:01:26.319 --> 00:01:30.480 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 34 00:01:30.519 --> 00:01:34.319 host journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 35 00:01:43.799 --> 00:01:48.799 Good Evening. Longtime author Stephanie Dickinson straddles the lines of 36 00:01:48.840 --> 00:01:53.319 true crime and memoir in Razor Wire Wilderness as she 37 00:01:53.400 --> 00:01:56.280 examines the lives of those affected by violence. In this 38 00:01:56.359 --> 00:02:01.359 immaculately assembled account that takes readers directly inside incarceration and 39 00:02:01.439 --> 00:02:06.120 face to face with inmates. Crystal Riordan watched as her 40 00:02:06.120 --> 00:02:09.039 boyfriend beat a teenage Jennifer Moore to death in a 41 00:02:09.159 --> 00:02:13.080 vermin infested New Jersey hotel room. Could she have stopped it? 42 00:02:13.520 --> 00:02:16.840 Or could she be his next victim? Now, Crystal is 43 00:02:16.879 --> 00:02:20.080 serving a maximum thirty year sentence, while the man who 44 00:02:20.120 --> 00:02:23.759 beat Jennifer to death received only a fifty year sentence. 45 00:02:24.439 --> 00:02:26.759 So what does it take to survive in a maximum 46 00:02:26.800 --> 00:02:30.639 security lockdown for thirty years? Is it possible to thrive 47 00:02:31.680 --> 00:02:34.520 the answers only lead to more questions in Dickinson's raw 48 00:02:34.520 --> 00:02:38.039 and emotional look into the criminal justice system and how 49 00:02:38.080 --> 00:02:41.479 it failed not just one, but countless victims of violence 50 00:02:41.919 --> 00:02:45.319 and what unfolds is a beautiful depiction of moral ambiguity, 51 00:02:45.840 --> 00:02:49.599 loss and redemption within the confines of the prison walls 52 00:02:49.759 --> 00:02:53.199 and beyond. The book they're featuring this evening is Razor 53 00:02:53.280 --> 00:02:57.599 Wire Wilderness with my guest author and journalist Stephanie Dickinson. 54 00:02:58.080 --> 00:02:59.759 Welcome to the program, and thank you so much for 55 00:02:59.800 --> 00:03:01.800 this interview. Stephanie Dickinson. 56 00:03:02.360 --> 00:03:05.120 Thank you so very much for inviting me. 57 00:03:05.879 --> 00:03:06.520 It's an honor. 58 00:03:07.560 --> 00:03:13.280 Thank you so much. This is an incredible, unique true 59 00:03:13.360 --> 00:03:17.479 crime book. As many people know the case of Crystal 60 00:03:17.560 --> 00:03:26.000 Riorden and her boyfriend Draymond Coleman and this brutal murder 61 00:03:26.520 --> 00:03:31.840 and Crystal's role in that as well. Before we talk 62 00:03:31.879 --> 00:03:35.360 about this relationship that I just mentioned in the introduction, 63 00:03:37.159 --> 00:03:39.719 tell us about your life. You were born in Iowa. 64 00:03:39.919 --> 00:03:44.000 You say you're a child of the farm, your family 65 00:03:44.120 --> 00:03:47.759 who practiced for Square religion. Tell us a little bit 66 00:03:47.800 --> 00:03:50.800 about your life in Iowa, who you were, what your 67 00:03:50.879 --> 00:03:51.960 early life was like. 68 00:03:53.360 --> 00:03:56.680 Well, I was raised as a single mother. After the 69 00:03:56.719 --> 00:04:00.360 death of my father, I was three years old and 70 00:04:00.439 --> 00:04:03.719 I had two young brothers older than myself that we 71 00:04:03.759 --> 00:04:07.639 were all into the age of six. And after my 72 00:04:07.719 --> 00:04:11.080 father's death, we moved back to my grandmother's farm in Iowa, 73 00:04:11.719 --> 00:04:15.159 and it's a beautiful farm. I didn't realize how beautiful 74 00:04:15.199 --> 00:04:20.040 Iowa was until I left it. But my mother and 75 00:04:20.040 --> 00:04:24.800 my grandmother are very very religious, and so the Bible 76 00:04:25.160 --> 00:04:28.519 was our daily bread. It was the most important thing. 77 00:04:28.959 --> 00:04:34.160 We went to church twice a week. And my mother. 78 00:04:34.000 --> 00:04:36.439 And grandmother are very sincere in their belief. 79 00:04:36.759 --> 00:04:42.879 And really strong women, and nothing but praise for them. 80 00:04:43.639 --> 00:04:50.199 But as a young girl, I rebelled against the strictures 81 00:04:50.000 --> 00:04:58.519 of of that world. I think we all become very 82 00:04:58.600 --> 00:05:02.600 much in our elesant years, in our teenagers, we very 83 00:05:02.680 --> 00:05:09.439 much wanted to see the world. And I when I 84 00:05:09.480 --> 00:05:15.040 was when I was eighteen years old, I had worked 85 00:05:15.079 --> 00:05:18.519 in Canada for a summer at a Christian camp and 86 00:05:18.720 --> 00:05:22.680 I left the camp and I hit hiked to Montreal. 87 00:05:23.319 --> 00:05:27.040 And when I was in Montreal, I met a man 88 00:05:27.399 --> 00:05:33.040 named Michael Weston and we became involved and I went 89 00:05:33.079 --> 00:05:36.879 back to Iowa. But then on Thanksgiving of that year, 90 00:05:37.360 --> 00:05:39.800 I had hied down to North Carolina to visit him, 91 00:05:39.920 --> 00:05:46.319 and I attended a party and as described in the book, 92 00:05:47.759 --> 00:05:53.240 at that party, there was a really drunk friend of 93 00:05:53.279 --> 00:06:00.160 Michael's and he took out his father's shotgun. And I 94 00:06:00.160 --> 00:06:03.959 went to use the bathroom and just to comb my hair, 95 00:06:04.480 --> 00:06:09.879 I couldn't find the light switch, and I sat down 96 00:06:09.879 --> 00:06:11.839 on the towilt, not to use the bathroom, but just 97 00:06:11.879 --> 00:06:16.439 to sit. And Charlie came into the bathroom and he 98 00:06:16.519 --> 00:06:20.040 had the twelve page shotgun balanced on his hip and 99 00:06:20.360 --> 00:06:24.639 he laughed and the gun went off very very close 100 00:06:24.680 --> 00:06:27.759 to my face. But the doctors had told me you're 101 00:06:27.759 --> 00:06:34.800 alive because you leaned forward. And at that point I 102 00:06:34.879 --> 00:06:38.680 lost consciousness and I lost the use of my left 103 00:06:38.759 --> 00:06:42.160 arm in that bathroom, and it's been it was quite 104 00:06:42.160 --> 00:06:46.240 a journey to return, but I did. And and four 105 00:06:46.240 --> 00:06:49.040 months flare, I was in college. 106 00:06:50.240 --> 00:06:53.399 And then and what did you do? You you say, 107 00:06:53.959 --> 00:06:57.040 with this disability here, what did you end up doing? 108 00:06:58.680 --> 00:06:58.839 Well? 109 00:06:58.879 --> 00:07:02.199 I got a master degree. I'm the MFA and Creative 110 00:07:02.199 --> 00:07:08.079 Writing and and as as a lot of people are 111 00:07:08.079 --> 00:07:10.480 finding out, because m f A is just so popular, 112 00:07:10.759 --> 00:07:13.519 it's a hard degree to sell. There's not a lot 113 00:07:13.519 --> 00:07:17.399 of not a lot of ads that want for someone 114 00:07:17.439 --> 00:07:22.560 with their m f A. So I took temporary jobs 115 00:07:24.000 --> 00:07:26.360 as a word processor, believe it or not, a one 116 00:07:26.480 --> 00:07:31.399 armed word processor or one useful word processor. And I've 117 00:07:31.399 --> 00:07:36.839 supported myself with that in all the all the years since, 118 00:07:38.279 --> 00:07:43.240 and I worked for some some really large firms and 119 00:07:43.240 --> 00:07:49.680 and work my way up to fairly fairly decent salary. 120 00:07:50.360 --> 00:07:53.600 But I've been told by doctors that that doesn't sound 121 00:07:53.680 --> 00:07:57.199 as unusual as as you might say that I would be. 122 00:07:58.040 --> 00:07:59.319 I would do word processing. 123 00:07:59.360 --> 00:07:59.399 It. 124 00:08:00.000 --> 00:08:03.519 A lot of disabled people will do something that you 125 00:08:03.560 --> 00:08:07.040 would think would be outside their capability of performing it. 126 00:08:07.600 --> 00:08:11.199 And there must be something challenging in that because and 127 00:08:11.240 --> 00:08:16.079 I've also found that we're processing leaves me that mental space. 128 00:08:15.800 --> 00:08:16.639 To do my writing. 129 00:08:19.680 --> 00:08:24.120 Let's talk about that writing. What were the first opportunities 130 00:08:24.160 --> 00:08:26.800 you had to write? And tell us about your writing career. 131 00:08:29.079 --> 00:08:32.039 Well, I've been writing since I went to school and 132 00:08:32.120 --> 00:08:35.679 the University of Oregon, and when I came to New 133 00:08:35.759 --> 00:08:38.559 York City, I always said that I'd lived and now 134 00:08:38.559 --> 00:08:41.159 I'm going to write about it. I attended a number 135 00:08:41.399 --> 00:08:43.080 of workshops in New York City. 136 00:08:43.120 --> 00:08:46.159 I studied with the wonderful William Packard. 137 00:08:46.759 --> 00:08:50.600 Who developed the New York Quarterly, and I studied at 138 00:08:50.639 --> 00:08:54.000 the Writer's Studio with Philip Schultz, who who won the 139 00:08:54.080 --> 00:08:58.679 Pulitzer a number of years ago, and just learned some 140 00:08:59.159 --> 00:09:04.039 really wonderful things, met wonderful writers in the city, and 141 00:09:04.080 --> 00:09:06.039 it's just been that part of my life has just 142 00:09:06.080 --> 00:09:12.120 been wonderful. And I even started my own small press, 143 00:09:12.440 --> 00:09:16.919 Rain Mountain Press, just just out of the love of 144 00:09:16.960 --> 00:09:21.480 the thing to publish books that might the mainstream pressice 145 00:09:21.559 --> 00:09:25.080 might not be interested in, and to do small print runs. 146 00:09:25.759 --> 00:09:32.039 And I started publishing with short story collections. I've done 147 00:09:32.080 --> 00:09:35.960 flash fiction and poetry. Poetry has always been a tremendous 148 00:09:36.279 --> 00:09:40.960 love of mine. I did write a novel, thinly veiled 149 00:09:41.000 --> 00:09:44.879 autobiographical novel called Half Girl, which is about the shooting, 150 00:09:46.480 --> 00:09:49.360 and it took took many a year to get to 151 00:09:49.399 --> 00:09:54.799 that point. I'm speaking about the disability very openly with you, 152 00:09:55.600 --> 00:09:59.120 but it took me a long time to be able 153 00:09:59.159 --> 00:10:02.399 to even admit that to myself, because I think when 154 00:10:02.440 --> 00:10:05.879 you're eighteen years old and you go through something so 155 00:10:06.000 --> 00:10:09.480 traumatic that changes your body image, and you're in that 156 00:10:09.879 --> 00:10:14.960 in that age where you want to be attractive you 157 00:10:15.039 --> 00:10:17.360 go through, you know, it takes a lot to come 158 00:10:17.399 --> 00:10:19.840 out into the open with that sort of thing. So 159 00:10:20.120 --> 00:10:25.639 I published Half Girl and it won an award, and 160 00:10:25.679 --> 00:10:31.840 then I've published a more short story collection, so Hm 161 00:10:32.320 --> 00:10:33.960 with small presses. 162 00:10:35.840 --> 00:10:38.960 But nicely published. And so I've just really. 163 00:10:39.679 --> 00:10:41.960 Found that part of my life really quite wonderful. 164 00:10:45.519 --> 00:10:49.600 But when I talk about sorry, go ahead, no, when. 165 00:10:49.440 --> 00:10:54.879 I approached Christal, which we'll talk about that that is nonfiction, 166 00:10:55.000 --> 00:10:57.919 and so that was that was a bit of a challenge, 167 00:10:58.000 --> 00:11:04.679 just to understand how well my more poetry centric world 168 00:11:05.240 --> 00:11:09.639 would melt with that more harsh, gritty on nonfiction world. 169 00:11:11.679 --> 00:11:14.240 Before we talk about the initial contact that you have 170 00:11:14.320 --> 00:11:20.159 with Crystal Riordan in this prison and the questions you 171 00:11:20.200 --> 00:11:23.559 ask her and the reason for corresponding with her in 172 00:11:23.600 --> 00:11:28.240 the first place. There are some regrets with this Thanksgiving 173 00:11:28.399 --> 00:11:32.639 other than that obviously that you're now disabled, and you 174 00:11:32.720 --> 00:11:36.960 go into that in quite detail in the book, but 175 00:11:37.240 --> 00:11:42.919 just in general, you have regrets from that Thanksgiving, but 176 00:11:43.000 --> 00:11:46.440 you also have regrets about your own behavior. You say 177 00:11:46.480 --> 00:11:49.080 that you didn't tell your father that you were hitchhiking 178 00:11:49.120 --> 00:11:52.759 to this in five states over for this Thanksgiving Day party, 179 00:11:53.480 --> 00:11:57.480 but also your background. It seems you took a lot. 180 00:11:57.559 --> 00:12:02.080 You felt guilty about your behavior and felt some responsibility 181 00:12:02.200 --> 00:12:04.759 for what had happened that Thanksgiving Day, didn't you. 182 00:12:05.440 --> 00:12:08.000 I certainly do, and I still do to this day. 183 00:12:09.240 --> 00:12:13.679 The hurt I brought my mother, who has said, who 184 00:12:13.759 --> 00:12:18.000 had a very hard life, and my family has been tremendous, 185 00:12:18.039 --> 00:12:21.440 And it took a long time to really embrace that. 186 00:12:21.440 --> 00:12:26.919 That that how I hurt myself had incredible ramifications in 187 00:12:27.320 --> 00:12:31.240 my families in the rest of their lives too. And 188 00:12:32.000 --> 00:12:35.519 so many people say it wasn't your fault, but I 189 00:12:36.559 --> 00:12:41.919 I hitchhiked a long way without telling anyone. I was. 190 00:12:44.399 --> 00:12:51.039 I treated treated my mother badly that way. And I 191 00:12:51.159 --> 00:12:58.519 was sexually promiscuous, And that was sort of after being 192 00:12:58.639 --> 00:13:01.960 raised in such a religious environment. It was it was 193 00:13:03.360 --> 00:13:08.000 sort of an embracing on that more hedonistic kind of lifestyle. 194 00:13:09.360 --> 00:13:14.639 But and it was the impulsiveness of that age. And 195 00:13:14.679 --> 00:13:19.720 so I have tremendous, a real passionate response to that age. 196 00:13:19.759 --> 00:13:23.519 And two and two women who find themselves making impulsive 197 00:13:23.919 --> 00:13:29.840 bad decisions in that in that window when when you 198 00:13:29.840 --> 00:13:31.559 can make a mistake that will last the rest of 199 00:13:31.600 --> 00:13:39.559 your life, And to this day, my brothers still still have, 200 00:13:40.759 --> 00:13:42.200 you know, feelings about this. 201 00:13:42.240 --> 00:13:44.639 And any emotion about the shooting. 202 00:13:44.799 --> 00:13:50.600 So you really don't realize what what what how your 203 00:13:50.720 --> 00:13:54.120 behavior affects other people. At that age, sometimes you just 204 00:13:54.120 --> 00:13:58.320 don't care because you're you're finding yourself. And I look 205 00:13:58.360 --> 00:14:02.399 at the way I acted then and it makes me ashamed, 206 00:14:02.840 --> 00:14:05.759 it does, you know. I think I've accepted that, but 207 00:14:07.080 --> 00:14:08.480 it's something that doesn't go away. 208 00:14:10.799 --> 00:14:16.360 But very much you realized that your life did turn around, 209 00:14:16.399 --> 00:14:19.039 and it wasn't the end of your life as you 210 00:14:19.120 --> 00:14:21.960 knew it. It was a new life and you thrived 211 00:14:22.000 --> 00:14:29.080 and persevered and succeeded when you first Obviously you're a writer, 212 00:14:29.480 --> 00:14:32.279 and you also have interest in true crime writing, and 213 00:14:32.279 --> 00:14:37.159 you write in this Razor Wild Wilderness that not since 214 00:14:37.320 --> 00:14:42.120 Manson were you interested in a case that it is 215 00:14:42.159 --> 00:14:45.320 at a point of obsession with the Crystal Reordan case, 216 00:14:45.639 --> 00:14:48.000 and in fact, with the tie in with your writing. 217 00:14:48.519 --> 00:14:51.679 You had written a fictional book loosely based on the 218 00:14:51.720 --> 00:14:53.840 case called Love Highway. So tell us a little bit 219 00:14:53.879 --> 00:14:58.480 about Love Highway before we talk about you. First, your 220 00:14:58.519 --> 00:15:02.120 first correspondence with CRISP. Reordan and why. 221 00:15:04.559 --> 00:15:07.600 When I first saw you know, Jennifer Moore's face on 222 00:15:07.639 --> 00:15:12.399 the cover of the Daily News. She was then considered missing, 223 00:15:13.159 --> 00:15:17.519 and she had walked off into the night, eighteen years old. 224 00:15:17.639 --> 00:15:21.039 And I was just struck because that was that age, 225 00:15:21.080 --> 00:15:23.559 at eighteen, that she had made this. 226 00:15:23.600 --> 00:15:25.480 Had made this mistake. And I read. 227 00:15:26.799 --> 00:15:31.799 The particulars of what had happened, the underage drinking and 228 00:15:31.879 --> 00:15:34.600 leaving the club, and she and her friend's car had 229 00:15:34.639 --> 00:15:41.399 been taken to the pound, just of mistakes that led 230 00:15:41.440 --> 00:15:45.919 to her vulnerability. Then the next day we saw Draymond 231 00:15:45.919 --> 00:15:49.320 Coleman on the cover of the Daily News, and then 232 00:15:49.799 --> 00:15:50.320 we saw. 233 00:15:50.200 --> 00:15:53.720 Crystal, Crystal Ruder's picture, And. 234 00:15:53.600 --> 00:15:57.039 When I read that there was another woman, a young 235 00:15:57.080 --> 00:16:00.360 woman in the room who was there when Jennifer was 236 00:16:00.559 --> 00:16:06.799 killed and raped, I was I just couldn't. I was 237 00:16:06.919 --> 00:16:12.360 just you know, not or just fixated with that. How 238 00:16:12.360 --> 00:16:16.080 could this be? How how could someone so close in 239 00:16:16.200 --> 00:16:23.080 age to a girl not watch, not run away from 240 00:16:23.559 --> 00:16:28.720 run away from the room and and call the police. 241 00:16:29.039 --> 00:16:35.039 And as more more so, it was that that that threesome, 242 00:16:35.159 --> 00:16:41.480 that that toxic interplay between the three Coleman and Jennifer 243 00:16:41.559 --> 00:16:46.360 and Crystal, but that a girl watched another girl being killed. 244 00:16:47.399 --> 00:16:51.120 I I felt I really wanted to write about that, 245 00:16:51.440 --> 00:16:55.240 or to understand it, to try to to to grapple 246 00:16:55.360 --> 00:17:00.600 with that, because it was so foreign to any way 247 00:17:00.600 --> 00:17:05.160 that I say. So A short story led to the novel, 248 00:17:05.160 --> 00:17:09.079 which was loosely based on the case. But as I 249 00:17:09.119 --> 00:17:13.599 came to know Crystal, I was surprised at at how 250 00:17:14.319 --> 00:17:16.640 I did come close to some of her, some of 251 00:17:16.680 --> 00:17:21.599 her characteristics. But it was as I was finishing Love 252 00:17:21.680 --> 00:17:24.960 Highway one of my friends who had read the manuscript 253 00:17:25.000 --> 00:17:27.759 said well, why don't you get in touch with Crystal. 254 00:17:27.759 --> 00:17:33.240 Why don't you write to her and see if she'll 255 00:17:33.240 --> 00:17:36.119 write you back. And so I called and the man 256 00:17:36.920 --> 00:17:40.640 Correctional Facility for Women in Clinton, New Jersey, and they 257 00:17:40.680 --> 00:17:43.799 gave me her ID number in the address, and I 258 00:17:43.839 --> 00:17:46.559 wrote her, and a friend of mine said, just just 259 00:17:47.319 --> 00:17:49.960 ask her, how are you doing? I've been thinking about you, 260 00:17:50.720 --> 00:17:53.640 And so that was really kind of the tone in 261 00:17:53.680 --> 00:17:55.680 the letter, you know, how are you doing it? I've 262 00:17:55.680 --> 00:18:00.359 been thinking about you and introducing myself a little bit 263 00:18:00.359 --> 00:18:06.079 of my history. And she she wrote me immediately back 264 00:18:07.359 --> 00:18:10.599 and told me that she didn't usually write people back. 265 00:18:11.279 --> 00:18:11.440 But. 266 00:18:13.279 --> 00:18:17.359 That there was something she could feel, some sympathy or 267 00:18:17.400 --> 00:18:20.279 something you know that that in my letters that that 268 00:18:20.400 --> 00:18:24.319 she responded to. And one of the ground rules was 269 00:18:24.319 --> 00:18:28.799 from the beginning she didn't want to be judged. She'd 270 00:18:28.839 --> 00:18:33.759 been judged so many times already that that that was 271 00:18:34.039 --> 00:18:36.559 the one that rock, I don't want to be judged. 272 00:18:38.319 --> 00:18:46.000 And our correspondence began, and it has continued to this day. 273 00:18:46.400 --> 00:18:53.559 Is uh, it's moved into the more email and video 274 00:18:53.680 --> 00:18:57.599 chads and and the whole and jpage, just the whole 275 00:18:58.079 --> 00:19:04.160 whole electronic array that that visits are not allowed anymore 276 00:19:04.200 --> 00:19:05.440 under the COVID conditions. 277 00:19:05.440 --> 00:19:05.960 There were some. 278 00:19:06.440 --> 00:19:12.039 Prior to that, but it's been I think Crystal has 279 00:19:12.079 --> 00:19:17.279 said that she considers me family. And sometimes when you 280 00:19:17.319 --> 00:19:20.720 make a commitment to someone and not perfect, and you're 281 00:19:20.720 --> 00:19:25.359 not perfect, and you're not taking away the enormity of 282 00:19:26.599 --> 00:19:30.960 what was done, but but you've made a commitment to 283 00:19:31.000 --> 00:19:31.759 this person and. 284 00:19:33.759 --> 00:19:36.519 They're going to keep it. So so that was. 285 00:19:36.519 --> 00:19:42.079 The initial contact and it's it's been, you know, quite 286 00:19:42.279 --> 00:19:46.519 quite a journey since then. As I didn't realize that 287 00:19:46.720 --> 00:19:48.319 knowing Crystal was going. 288 00:19:48.119 --> 00:19:50.640 To take me into the prison system itself. 289 00:19:53.599 --> 00:19:55.880 We have to talk about this crime for those people 290 00:19:55.880 --> 00:19:59.519 that really don't know what was entailed here, But you 291 00:19:59.640 --> 00:20:04.480 didn't ask in all of this correspondence, you didn't ask 292 00:20:06.839 --> 00:20:10.160 why when Jennifer was screaming, and we have to get 293 00:20:10.200 --> 00:20:13.559 to the details of this was screaming? Did she turn 294 00:20:13.640 --> 00:20:16.400 up the TV set? Nor did you ask her? Why 295 00:20:16.759 --> 00:20:23.599 didn't you try to help Jennifer? So before you endeavored 296 00:20:23.599 --> 00:20:30.079 to do this, despite the misadventures and the things that 297 00:20:30.160 --> 00:20:34.359 you left your moral compass, you believed and it led 298 00:20:34.400 --> 00:20:39.000 to this event that you could never changed you forever. 299 00:20:41.039 --> 00:20:43.960 How could you put those things aside? What was it 300 00:20:44.319 --> 00:20:48.599 about your background or what was it about Crystal just 301 00:20:48.720 --> 00:20:53.640 looking at photos, looking at her mugshot, finding out some 302 00:20:53.759 --> 00:20:59.319 details of the crime. Despite the headlines, why did you 303 00:20:59.359 --> 00:21:01.799 write Crystal rd RD? 304 00:21:04.960 --> 00:21:07.079 I think I wanted to find out who she was. 305 00:21:07.799 --> 00:21:11.400 I did want to understand. I thought if I knew 306 00:21:11.440 --> 00:21:14.559 who she was, If I knew who she was, then 307 00:21:14.559 --> 00:21:18.440 I would understand. I wouldn't have to ask why she 308 00:21:18.559 --> 00:21:22.279 did what she did. And I think that if I 309 00:21:22.319 --> 00:21:25.640 had asked her, it would have been very difficult for 310 00:21:25.680 --> 00:21:29.279 her to tell the truth, if she even knows what 311 00:21:29.319 --> 00:21:33.359 that truth is, because we do sculpt memory, and that 312 00:21:34.000 --> 00:21:37.599 night was so painful, and the moral ambiguity was so 313 00:21:37.799 --> 00:21:42.440 great that I don't know what she would have said, 314 00:21:42.480 --> 00:21:46.799 and I have asked some questions and I've gotten different answers. 315 00:21:47.319 --> 00:21:52.720 So but I did feel that getting to know her 316 00:21:53.839 --> 00:21:56.799 that I would discover what it happened. I would discover 317 00:21:56.960 --> 00:22:02.640 why the why of this, and I was reaching. I 318 00:22:02.680 --> 00:22:08.880 did reach out my hands as you went buying friendship 319 00:22:08.920 --> 00:22:14.119 to her too, because I do believe that the redemption 320 00:22:14.279 --> 00:22:20.000 is possible for all of us, and and that we 321 00:22:20.200 --> 00:22:22.680 deserve to be looked at as a as a human being, 322 00:22:23.400 --> 00:22:28.799 no matter what has transpired before we met. So those 323 00:22:28.799 --> 00:22:33.680 were the reasons I reached out to her sometimes. I 324 00:22:33.759 --> 00:22:36.640 once gave an interview onto a television show called for 325 00:22:36.839 --> 00:22:41.359 My Man, which I described in the book. I don't 326 00:22:41.400 --> 00:22:44.279 believe it's on anymore, but it was an LA based 327 00:22:44.359 --> 00:22:49.880 show that that profile young women who committed crimes for 328 00:22:50.039 --> 00:22:52.720 their men, and they were called Ride or Die chicks. 329 00:22:53.599 --> 00:22:58.039 And the team had come to New Jersey and wanted 330 00:22:58.079 --> 00:23:01.799 to do a segment on Crystal and they could not 331 00:23:01.880 --> 00:23:05.839 find anyone who would speak in her behalf her parents 332 00:23:06.200 --> 00:23:10.880 or not talk, and so they they found online You 333 00:23:10.920 --> 00:23:14.319 had My Interesting Love Highway, And I probably had published 334 00:23:14.319 --> 00:23:16.960 an essay, and they contacted me and asked me if 335 00:23:16.960 --> 00:23:21.759 I would speak for her, and so I did on 336 00:23:22.559 --> 00:23:27.319 New Jersey and was interviewed for almost four hours for 337 00:23:27.440 --> 00:23:31.319 the for the for the segment, very very lovely and 338 00:23:31.359 --> 00:23:39.359 warm interviewer. But I learned things from their investigation. They 339 00:23:39.359 --> 00:23:43.680 were able to speak to detectives and police. They had 340 00:23:43.680 --> 00:23:53.039 some information very painful to Peter for me, and so 341 00:23:53.039 --> 00:23:57.519 so that was that was I had to There have 342 00:23:57.599 --> 00:24:02.680 been some bumps where I've had to think about what 343 00:24:02.680 --> 00:24:09.400 what what Crystal, Crystal, what what you know costs her 344 00:24:09.400 --> 00:24:12.519 to take some actions that it was reported in the 345 00:24:12.559 --> 00:24:16.559 newspaper the day after the murder that she advertised herself 346 00:24:16.720 --> 00:24:21.519 on Craigslist. She was going by the the name Lisa 347 00:24:21.599 --> 00:24:27.119 then as a prostitute to give the full full service 348 00:24:27.440 --> 00:24:30.000 for one hundred and fifty dollars, And that was that 349 00:24:30.160 --> 00:24:33.279 was really made a lot of in the newspaper. Here 350 00:24:33.400 --> 00:24:37.359 is this young woman who the day after a murder 351 00:24:37.440 --> 00:24:42.880 is is selling herself on Craiglist. Says that added to 352 00:24:42.960 --> 00:24:45.039 this whole shame that this. 353 00:24:44.960 --> 00:24:46.279 Woman is really depraved. 354 00:24:46.319 --> 00:24:53.480 I think in the press. 355 00:24:51.759 --> 00:24:55.960 When you talk about Crystal and how she got to 356 00:24:56.000 --> 00:24:59.279 this point again, you call it moral ambiguity. We'll talk 357 00:24:59.279 --> 00:25:03.279 about more about that, but let's talk about what you 358 00:25:03.359 --> 00:25:04.960 found about Crystal's background. 359 00:25:07.319 --> 00:25:11.720 Crystal Husbands. Yeah, sorry, Crystal. 360 00:25:11.880 --> 00:25:14.880 Crystal was born into a home. 361 00:25:15.759 --> 00:25:20.519 Her father's Irish and her mother was French. She had two. 362 00:25:22.559 --> 00:25:26.319 An older and a younger sister, and they were terribly neglected. 363 00:25:26.359 --> 00:25:29.920 The mother worked as a prostitute. The father dealt drugs 364 00:25:31.480 --> 00:25:35.960 and they were left alone a lot. They had shared 365 00:25:36.000 --> 00:25:39.440 one bed, and they went hungry. And I was so 366 00:25:39.960 --> 00:25:44.680 moved by the stories that her older sister would go 367 00:25:45.240 --> 00:25:49.119 hunt food in the refrigerator and there wasn't much, but 368 00:25:49.240 --> 00:25:54.519 she found can ravioli and pickles, and so that was 369 00:25:54.559 --> 00:25:59.279 their comfort food in bed, eating cold ravioli and pickles. 370 00:25:59.680 --> 00:26:03.799 That was their food. And and I found that story 371 00:26:04.400 --> 00:26:05.599 so resonated with me. 372 00:26:05.759 --> 00:26:06.960 It just lodged in me. 373 00:26:07.759 --> 00:26:11.480 And they had an uncle. Their mother's brother would come 374 00:26:11.519 --> 00:26:16.640 over and he molested Crystal and her younger sister. To 375 00:26:16.720 --> 00:26:20.720 this day, Crystal had flashbacks and will hide in the 376 00:26:20.720 --> 00:26:25.440 bathroom in the in the prison, because I think that 377 00:26:25.440 --> 00:26:28.039 that that is where as a child they tried to 378 00:26:28.319 --> 00:26:32.680 hide from from their uncle is in the bathroom, right 379 00:26:34.319 --> 00:26:38.559 They when the oldest girl went to school. It was 380 00:26:38.640 --> 00:26:41.039 nose that they had lice and that they were so dirty, 381 00:26:42.119 --> 00:26:45.839 and the Job Protected Services came in and they did 382 00:26:47.640 --> 00:26:50.480 take the take the girls from the home and they 383 00:26:50.480 --> 00:26:54.920 were put into foster care, and they moved around and 384 00:26:54.920 --> 00:26:57.720 thought the sisters were broken up. The older sister went 385 00:26:58.559 --> 00:27:02.799 in one car and Crystal and her younger sister into another. 386 00:27:03.640 --> 00:27:09.160 And Crystal and her sister were adopted by through the 387 00:27:09.200 --> 00:27:15.680 Catholic charities, by a very wealthy Connecticut family who really 388 00:27:15.839 --> 00:27:19.519 really hoped for the best and wanted to make a family. 389 00:27:20.599 --> 00:27:27.160 But Crystal's adoptive mother was very strict. Here we run 390 00:27:27.200 --> 00:27:31.599 into the fourth Graare religion again, and I think Crystal 391 00:27:32.720 --> 00:27:37.559 just needed a mother to just love her unconditionally, and 392 00:27:39.000 --> 00:27:43.079 this wasn't going to happen in this home, even though 393 00:27:43.559 --> 00:27:48.359 her god parents had the best of intentions and created 394 00:27:48.440 --> 00:27:53.160 tea parties for their daughters, and but it was this 395 00:27:53.799 --> 00:27:57.200 strictness and harsh punishment I don't think that Crystal could 396 00:27:57.480 --> 00:28:00.559 could handle. And she had a lot of screaming in 397 00:28:00.640 --> 00:28:05.200 the night, h inability to sleep through the night. And 398 00:28:05.319 --> 00:28:08.839 when she reached adolescence, and you will find in the 399 00:28:08.880 --> 00:28:13.079 book that she was a role model a certain point 400 00:28:13.079 --> 00:28:15.920 of her life to her friends and there and their parents. 401 00:28:16.079 --> 00:28:21.400