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Speaker 2: Let's get out to the hotline. Welcome in Big twelve
inch at we.
Speaker 3: Got John Kurtz, the host, the owner, the operator of
the Open for Bigness, Open for Business, Big twelve podcasts
and newsletter.
Speaker 2: John. How you living?
Speaker 4: What's up?
Speaker 2: Man?
Speaker 4: I'm doing great?
Speaker 3: Man?
Speaker 4: How are you?
Speaker 3: I'm doing fantastic. Appreciate you hopping on. What's the state
of the Big twelve right now? What have you been
talking about on your podcast this week?
Speaker 4: Man? Well, it's kind of a I'm in Big twelve
basketball world right now. I feel like you guys know
that full well over in Provo what's going on with
all the injuries and really, if you want to lump
in the Darren Pearson saga too, just like injuries slash
load management, everything that's going on with Big twelve stars
right now is really really a bummer, you know. I mean,
I think the Big twelve still has a great shot
to win a national championship, and you want to see
the Big twelve perform well in the NCAA tournament. But
I mean Texas Tech I think was a legitimate Final
four contender, maybe a national title contender. They've beaten three
top five teams this year, but losing JT. Toppin is
just brutal. I mean, that's a backbreaker. He's Evan Miyakawa,
who does some analytics, has one of the more popular
basketball analytics sites out there. He dropped Tech from twelve
to fortieth without JP Toppins, So I mean you're talking
about a monster, monster difference there with a guy who
was like in the running for a National Player of
the Year. He's at least like in that conversation, So
it's horrible to see him go down with an obviously
Richie Saunders also, you know, I mean just ultimate program guy,
a four year guy at one school in this day
and age, where he's you know, taking himself from a
role player into potential All American this year with the
way that he was playing, like just gut wrenching to
see him go down like that and lose the rest
of his season. And obviously, you know for BYU it
team has already been hit really hard with injuries. You've
just taken on so much water as far as that's
concerned throughout the season. So I don't know exactly what
the ceiling is. I mean, AJ's playing awesome thirty points
a game over the last five, but he's gonna need
some help, and I don't know if there's enough help
but enough firepower there for a deep run this year.
But we'll see, you know. I know, Kevin Young seems
seems pretty fired up about that. And then you throw
in like even co A Pete, I think he's gonna
be okay, but the way things are going in the
Big Twelve right now, he's having to miss a week
and so you worry about what the long term prognosis
is there. And then you know Bill self is now
getting a little set up. It seems that the press
conferences with Aaron Peterson and not knowing exactly how to
handle what's going on with that. So I just hope
that if it's gonna be Houston or Iowa stay carrying
everybody else or the rest of the league kind of
regrouping and gathering itself for the NCAA Tournament, I hope
things are okay there.
Speaker 3: Yeah, pretty devastating news for the Big Twelve, especially as
they've been considered the best conference in America alongside the
Big Ten. And you don't want it to be like
the postseason of the Big Toe. Now, the Big Twelve
did okay in the postseason for in football, right, but
they kind of fell short a little bit. Wouldn't you
say they underachieved a little bit in the postseason.
Speaker 4: Well, I think it's just the Texas Tech game overshadows
everything right in football, So that's kind of how I
would phrase it. It's like that was such a dud
that it's hard to really regain much else outside of that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And so I feel like the Big Twelve may
be trending in that same direction.
Speaker 2: With j C. Toppins and you're Richie Saunders injury.
Speaker 4: Yeah. I mean the good news is, like we saw
the Houston Iowa was taking game on Monday night, which
was one of the best games of the season, one
of the best games probably in the country so far
this year between those two, and they seem to be
totally rolling right now.
Speaker 1: Now.
Speaker 4: I will say I'm a little cautious with Iowa State
because the reputation at Otzolberger has been like that they
do tail off a little bit in March after having
incredible regular seasons or at least all the way up
through like late January, and then maybe they're not quite
as good after that. They seem to be peaking at
a much better time this year, which I think is positive.
We just saw Houston almost win the national championship last year,
so I trust that they'll be ready to go for
a deep run. And then Arizona, Yeah, it's just it's
like contingent on the health of Copete. But they are
really deep, you know. I will say that we're talking
about death issues with like Texas Tech and DYU, Arizona
is pretty deep. So if there is a team that's
built to withstand a little bit of an injury issue,
Arizona would have a better shot there. But yeah, that's
my you know, nervous caution with the situation right now
is yeah, hopefully it's not headed towards something like that,
and it's just a bit of a you know, we're
in the dog days, right, We're in the dog days
of the basketball season. You get into mid to late February,
it's a grind, especially in this conference. So hopefully once
everybody comes out of playing everybody at the Big twelve,
things will look really nice in the NCAA tournament.
Speaker 3: Wanted to get your thoughts on the Darren Peterson situation.
I was I thought this entire time that Bill Self
was in on the load management structure right of Darren Peterson, Like, hey,
he gets to do what he wants, when he wants,
how he wants. He can sub himself out, you know,
he's he may or may not have an injury.
Speaker 2: He was in on it, right.
Speaker 3: He got him there to to Kansas and was like, look,
we just we just want you here and you can
do whatever you want.
Speaker 2: We just need you here. It seems like Bill self
is no longer.
Speaker 3: It seems like the last two press conferences postgame and
then earlier today, he's not in on it, Like he's like, no,
we got to get him to play. We got to
figure this out. Give me your thoughts on this situation.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean March, you know, I think it's March.
Like March is right around the corner, and they're looking
around like, Okay, this has gone on long enough, Like
we got to the NCAA tournament, Bill Selftones, that's how
he's going to be judged. Kansas has been disappointing there
since winning the national championship back in the twenty one
to twenty two season, so he knows he's got to
get that figured out. And right now it's like, I'm
sure they thought they would have a little clearer picture
of what this was going to look like by you know,
late February, and they don't. So to me, it just
it screams like a coach that's feeling the pressure of that,
and I mean just the frustration and like, look, I
don't blame him, I mean, how could you not be
frustrated with how everything's played out with that And another
example of it, I mean, probably the most egregious example
we've seen of it was just him hitting a three
and turning around to the bench and immediately wanting to
pull himself out. Just the optics are not good with
that at the moment. So I'm with you that self
probably has had some level of realization throughout this whole
process that like there's an inevitability to like we're gonna
have to deal with some of this. But it sure
makes you think that part of the discussion was like, oh,
you know, we get closer to March or whatever, maybe
maybe you can go a little further, we can unlock
this a bit more, and that that obviously is still
not happening. So maybe in the NCAA tournament, Peterson and
his team will decide like, all right, look, this is
the highest profile stage we've got. This is why you
come to college to play in these NCAA tournament games.
Will totally cut it loose here. But man, I don't know,
because you've already gotten this to the point where it's
such a big storyline that it's a legitimate talking point
for him being the number one taking the draft or not,
therefore theoretically affecting his future a little bit. They've already
like crossed that bridge. So I don't know that you'd
be like, well, we'll let him play all the way
through in the NCAA tournament because it'll save that. Because
I don't know if it's going to say that, people
are already questioning it enough. So yeah, I don't have
like a great feel on what's going on there, other
than to say, I mean, hey, if it's been like
this for November, December, January, now February, I'm not going
to be the guy that goes out there and predicts
that it'll be totally different in March when they're in
like a sweet sixteen game, you know, with five minutes
to go in a tie game, I'm not going to
be overly confident that Darren Peterson is going to be
out there for him.
Speaker 3: Continuing down the line of Big twelve conversation, coach Tang
was let go of his job for cause what's the
recent updates on that front? Give me your perspective on
this as you cover this team on the daily.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: So, here's the thing. I think a lot of people,
and I understand why, are kind of missing some of
the biggest piece of this story. All Case State has
done publicly is say insinuate, not even directly say, but
insinuate that the firing four cause was about the press
conference after the Cincinnati game where he said, a bunch
of these guys aren't even going to be here. They
don't next year, they don't deserve to wear the uniform
all that. There's more to it than that, Like, it's
not just that. That's kind of like a last straw
with the long line of things behind the scenes that
I think had been difficult for them to deal with.
I don't think Jerome Tang has been a really easy
guy to deal with behind the scenes. And I would
just put it to you like this, think about it
like an iceberg, right, you see the tip of the iceberg,
but there was always massive amounts of ice actually underneath
the water that you're not seeing. But what we've seen
is over the last few years, Jerome Tang got involved
in a massive scandal at Iowa State where he accused
dj Oziberger of spying on him in the huddle and
did that in the handshake line, and it became a
huge thing and was very embarrassing to the school. Earlier
that season, Naekwon Tomlin got kicked off the team. There
was a bar fight incident. There was also a title
nine incident behind the scenes that didn't get really publicized
at the time. A lot of he said, she said
Tang basically turned the entire fan base of media against
the university president on that one. It was a huge
drama filled thing that drug on for a long time.
You have that there was an assistant coach that got
in a little scuffle with a Kansas assistant after case
a BTU one year in Bramwa's coliseum. He had his
own dust up with Bill self and a handshake line
at one point. There have been weird absences for players
in and out of the lineup each of the last
few years. There's just been a lot, a lot of
drama and a lot of things that have been public
for everybody to see. So I would just ask you
if that's the iceberg that you can see, let's just
take a guess that there might be some other things
happening under the water there. Now. I'm not saying that
it's not a little bit intellectually dishonest. Yeah, from case
state that. I mean, of course, he's being fired because
he's not good. And of course if he were eleven
to one in the Big twelve instead of one and eleven,
they wouldn't be firing him, But what industry is that
not really the case where a high achiever gets away
with a lot more, and that a pattern of bad
behavior could be something that does get you fired if
you're not performing up to standards. And the language in
the contract, there is some pretty solid language there about
conduct that causes embarrassment to the university, the school, or
the coach, and you can go read the specifics of it.
I'm no lawyer, but it certainly reads to me like
there's at least a case there. And I don't think
kse State's idea with any of this was, oh, we're
going to get out of the whole eighteen point seven million.
They're trying to do the same thing that Texas Tech
did with Mark Adams. They're trying to do the same
thing that Saint John's did with Mike Anderson, which is
just settle, just settle, get some of the buyout knocked off,
and that would be my guess as to what ultimately
happens here is that they will save a little bit
of money. They probably didn't anticipate this much blowback to it,
which I think they've been hurt by the fact that
it happened in season, and it happened at a really
slow part of the sports calendar, So you have all
these people helicoptering in to give takes on it because
there's not much else going on. Like, I don't genuinely
think Steven A. Smith really cares about Case State firing
Jerb Tang, But there's not a whole lot going on.
So Steven A. Smith is actually talking about it, so
you can debate the merits of the pr hit versus
you know, what you might actually save and what the
settlement's going to look like. But I don't think I've
been I will admit to you I've been a little
annoyed at the just everybody helicoptering vibe to drop a
bomb on Case State like this is the most ridiculous.
We've never seen anything like this, We've seen play this. Also,
the coaching community has a vested interest in coming out
and saying, hey, you can't do this. Pay the guy
is money, so you're seth Greenberg's your fran for shill Is.
Of course they're all over that because they don't want
the precedent set of this becoming a more regular thing
where guys are gonna lose some of their buyout money
on a regular basis. So all of it's just it's
annoyed me a bit, but I fully recognize it's not
like the most in good faith in the world thing
that case State is doing here.
Speaker 3: Well, what's interesting is didn't Drum Tang say the kind
of the quiet part out loud with like how he
would how coaches maybe possibly set themselves up to get
fired for cause. But then he said he would maybe
go on like a mission.
Speaker 2: Trip and set up I don't know.
Speaker 3: I think he said something about maybe schools and orphanages
and things of that nature. I can't remember which podcast
I saw it on it you may have more insight there.
Have you heard of anything like that? He went on
record in the off season about this.
Speaker 4: Well, I'm trying to so I believe the Clipper referencing
is he would he would do a segment the case
they would produce that was called like hang Him with Tang,
where he would go sit on a couch with students, yes,
a case state, and they would ask him questions. And
I can't remember the full context of it, but he
kind of cracked a joke like, well, hey, i'd be
cool just taking my taking my buyout money or whatever
and going off to an island or something that yeah, yeah, yeah,
So in jest, he did make a comment like that
at one point in time, I have no idea. Look again,
like I'm not a lawyer. I have no idea how
much that can help him or hert I will tell
you the Athletic did a really good article and they
didn't even analyze everything I said about, like, hey, I
think there's other stuff going on here too that'll be
a part of case state's case. They just took it
at face value and like, okay, what about the embarrassment piece?
Match it with the press conference? How does this work?
And a couple of the lawyers they talked to said, actually,
the kind of smoking gun, if you will, in that.
The thing that Tang said that really hurt him is
when he said most of these guys aren't even going
to be here next year. Because they said, now you're
making the case like okay, so you're already kicking guys
off the team midseason, or you're talking about contract negotiations
with these guys already that we might want to have
a state You should go read the articles by David
Ubben at the athletic it was pretty good, but they
seem to think that that would be the most problematic
part for Tang. So he's said some things. Now, Look,
I think Jean Taylor, case State's athletic director, has also
done some things that are a little detrimental. He did
an interview with the Manhattan Mercury, one of the local papers,
where I just can't imagine why the university council let
him do that. But so, I think sides have probably
hurt themselves a little bit with some public comments. And
I don't think either side wanted to go to Discovery
at all. So I think that's why you're probably gonna
see this thing settle at some point.
Speaker 3: Love the breakdown. John Kertz here on es me and
the fan. John, You've you've also you did a little
peace on Provo and BYU and road trips. I know
your name could be had for good and evil. When
you talk positively about a trip to Provo, give a
little give a little breakdown of what what you discussed
and and and maybe the repercussions of such.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's funny, it's funny you bring that up.
Speaker 1: Man.
Speaker 4: So I will just say, I mean so I've been
three times now. I went to the case A game
in twenty four, I went to the Utah football game
this past year, and then explore Utah. Alley did bring
me out for a trip to go watch the Houston
basketball game. Now I bring that up to say, like, yeah,
I'm getting killed by some folks.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 4: Oh, like obviously you're going to say good things about
it if someone bringing you out there. I say that
to say I've done it twice on my own and
one time, yeah, I was covering case Dy. I came
back again just out of my own pot, both times,
out of my own pocket, just to go do it.
And I am being genuine when I say that in
my fifteen years of like making road trips as someone
who I mean, I love the mountains, I love the outdoors,
I love hiking, Like I really do like that vibe.
So maybe Provo appeals to me a little bit more
than another guy or another college football fan who maybe
they're more into like, Hey, I want somewhere there where
I can just go to a massive party. That's not
really my vibe, but it's legitimately my favorite trip that
I have taken. In doing all this and that is genuine,
and that's why I've done it twice on my own
without even you know, anybody sending me out there. So
it's a little frustrating, But like I knew there would
be some of that. I knew I would get some
of that, you know, what to expect. I think it's
a cool thing. I like coming out there. If you
want me to come out there and talk about the
good things happening in Provo, I will definitely do it.
And you know, I also I do get a little
frustrated with people that haven't been there talking about the
typical stereotypes that you hear, because I'm like, look, man,
I've I've been out enough and just through what I'm
doing with my platform, have met enough YU fans, some
of whom have become really close friends of mine that
I just really like. I've been treated so well. I
really like the people and are just really nice, average
people like I just so I did want to try
and put my spin on just trying to show like, hey,
it's just it's like any place that you would go
just with some beautiful mountains and an unbelievable athletics program
right now, and some really good food and you know,
plenty of things to do outdoors. Is I trying to
orchestrate or illustrate rather in the video? But I knew,
I knew there would be some pushback to it. There's
always going to be that. I just if it can
get the message out there positively to some people. I
hope that some people are legitimately listening, and I have
enough credibility in their eyes for them to listen to that.
And you know, we'll deal with the haters who cares.
Speaker 3: You know, always there's always love and hate wherever you go,
my friend, as soon as you a pine, as soon
as you open your mouth, all will will flow positively
or negatively. That is the case, my friend. How many
sell out comments did you get from that post? How
many sellout posts?
Speaker 4: Oh? I mean, like there was one one for sure
on Twitter that I'm thinking of, And I haven't checked
the YouTube comments in a minute. I had one or two.
It wasn't like terrible, terrible. But the people that come in,
you know, come in real strong. They're trying to really
you know, it is what it is. I have look,
every time something like that happens, I have to think
and like stop and remind myself, like Hey, especially in
my younger years, like I've been that guy on the
other side of it too, so I can't you know,
some of it's some of it's just gonna come back around.
And that's why I try to do very very little
event these days and just do my things, stay in
my own lane. So you were, as you get older
in life.
Speaker 2: You know, do great work.
Speaker 3: Man. Always appreciate anything else that's been keeping you up
at night that you've been talking about on your podcast.
We invite everyone to follow you and subscribe to your podcast.
Speaker 2: Man.
Speaker 4: The only other story that was kind of interesting to
me recently was Texas ducking out on that Arizona State series,
which it's in football. It's not until the twenty thirties,
was like thirty one and thirty two, so who knows
what the heck college football is going to look like
at that point anyway, But Texas is doing it because
the SEC is going to a nine game schedule, nine
game conference schedule, which to me signaled a little bit
of like okay, like Big twelve teams aren't going to
need to understand this reality, Like it's going to be
harder to schedule SEC teams because they don't want to
schedule a loss, and Texas is keeping Ohio State and
Notre Dame on the schedule. I'm sure thinking, well, if
we do lose to them, that won't be really a
reputational hit. We could definitely lose to Arizona State, as
we learned in the College Football Playoff, and then we
probably wouldn't really get as much benefit of the doubt
because that's a big twelve team. I think it's going
to get harder to schedule SEC teams, maybe just big
brands in general, which puts extra emphasis on games like
Notre Dame BYU and like Oklahoma State Oregon, which people
aren't talking about as much. And look, it's probably a
long shot, but you definitely want to have a better
showing than Oklahoma State did last year. You just got
to take advantage of these opportunities when you can get them.
And kudos to Arizona State because they've got Texas A
and M this year and next, and then they have
a series with LSU on the books too, so they're
not shy about going out there and trying to get
series like that. And Texas Tech, I'm sure they're trying.
I don't know exactly how hard. They are trying right now,
but with their non con schedule and taking a bit
of a beating over that this year. Tech, especially if
they want to be the big boys of the conference,
they should probably be trying to go get some of
those games too, but might be a little bit more
difficult after what we saw Texas do there to back out.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think I've had this discussion with you. The
SEC does not want any sort of cross conference data
points to work against them. That's the last thing they want.
They want the equity that's been built over the last
twenty five thirty years to continue into the modern era
because when they go head to head against other power conferences,
we see what happens. They're maybe okay with the Big
ten because you know the Big ten is on an
equivalent sphere.
Speaker 2: They don't want the SEC. They don't want the Big twelve.
Speaker 3: They don't want any G six programs that prominence because
they may lose those games and undermine their their equity
that they've built for twenty five thirty years, that was
built off of bagmen and rural from rural car dealerships.
Speaker 2: That's what it was built off.
Speaker 3: The SEC was built off of bag men, and rural
car dealership deals.
Speaker 4: That's it. It's such an astute point, I mean because and
like it's hard to blame them, like they have got
the system so set up for them, right, Like everything
works for them based on what's happened the last two decades.
That's probably what anybody would try and do, right, Like
just and you saw it with how they fought the
college football Playoff in the off season, that they need
more at large bids because basically, we're the SEC, and
here are these data points you should look at because
we're the toughest conference and we play each other all
the time. So yeah, they just want to keep it
in house. And it even got to the point where
one of the latest Ross Dellinger stories was about how
with all the issues and enforcement of NIL and the
deals above the cap, I mean, the talk out of
the SEC now was, well, maybe we'll just play a
twelve game schedule against each other because then we can
dictate all the rules. They're competing against ourselves, and like,
of course, you guys will accept our champion as the
best or whatever because we're the SEC and we built
up this reputation like they're willing to even go nuclear
option basically on it and just say forget everybody else,
We're only going to play each other. I mean, that's
that's how much they think along those lines right now.
So I think it's a very as due point that
you bring up.
Speaker 2: There, John Kurtz, we should lead you.
Speaker 3: Appreciate you, and we invite everyone to follow you and
subscribe to check out whose podcast Open for Business a
big twelve inside or podcast and YouTube YouTube show. Appreciate you, John,
thanks for hopping on today.
Speaker 4: Hey, take care ben any all.
Speaker 2: Right, Appreciate you, John Kurtz, Ladies and gentlemen.
Speaker 3: Great segment with John and bikog ro to him as
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