Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you very much, thank you, thank you
Speaker 1: very much. I really appreciate the thoughts and the roundom applause.
Speaker 2: That's very nice.
Speaker 1: A few days ago we received notice that Earth Ancients
Speaker 1: had won Best Ancient History Podcast by the Parapod Events
Speaker 1: of Los Angeles. And it's always nice to be remembered
Speaker 1: and thought about. And we were up against hundreds of people,
Speaker 1: and you know, I didn't even put a submission and
Speaker 1: they just called me up and said, hey, Cliff, Earth
Speaker 1: Ancients is a good deal, it's a good podcast and
Speaker 1: we like to recognize you. And I was like wow,
Speaker 1: and of course, you know, I mean, you go about
Speaker 1: your business and you don't think about it. But I
Speaker 1: guess we're a form of entertainment. Entertainment. So thanks to
Speaker 1: Parapod and I really appreciate it. You can see the
Speaker 1: award on the Facebook page go to Cliff dunning my profile,
Speaker 1: or go to Earth Ancients International, which is the public
Speaker 1: page or the private pages they're posted there. I do
Speaker 1: want to mention that it's just not me alone. There's
Speaker 1: a lot of work that goes into this thing. And
Speaker 1: I also want to thank our producer, Gail Tour. She
Speaker 1: has been working diligently to pull together really good material,
Speaker 1: not only for Earth Ancients, but for Destiny and also
Speaker 1: the special edition Earth Ancient Special Edition, sometimes from the archives.
Speaker 1: But lately we've been really just pushing and promoting new
Speaker 1: voices and that's a lot of fun. Also Mark Foster,
Speaker 1: who is a researcher and also the designer for all
Speaker 1: our banners and fais Ol Parvey. He is our YouTube
Speaker 1: channel producer and he is coming to us from Pakistan.
Speaker 1: And by the way, Mark Foster's in London, England. So
Speaker 1: this is what I really love. I love the eclectic
Speaker 1: environment that we have here at Earth Ancients. I love
Speaker 1: the fact that everybody's all over the planet. It's just
Speaker 1: a great vibe. And again thanks to Parapod for the award.
Speaker 1: It's always nice to be Hey, we have a good
Speaker 1: show today. Chris dun is back and we're talking about
Speaker 1: ancient machining, I should say, we're talking about advanced machining
Speaker 1: in ancient Egypt. And it's really becoming quite obvious that
Speaker 1: the Dynastics the Pharonic period of Egypt are not the
Speaker 1: builders of the pyramids, obviously, but not only that, it's
Speaker 1: looking like many of the buildings were repurposed. And what
Speaker 1: this means is that they were survivors the Pharonic period.
Speaker 1: Our survivals if you remember a few, I think it
Speaker 1: was about a year ago we had Karacooni on the
Speaker 1: show who wrote a book on recycled death. It's called
Speaker 1: Recycle for Death, and she spent an entire four hundred
Speaker 1: page book describing how these various periods, the Old, Middle
Speaker 1: and New Kingdom of the Pharonic period, they were reusing
Speaker 1: each other's burial goods, and they were reusing each other's
Speaker 1: jewelry and clothing. And it's not a very good picture.
Speaker 1: It's kind of a sad, depressing picture when you realize
Speaker 1: that these guys weren't as dynamic as we all think
Speaker 1: they were. And this kind of bleeds into and moves
Speaker 1: us into pharaohs like Ramsey the Second, who turns out
Speaker 1: to be this narcissistic, egotistical pharaoh who's literally asking his
Speaker 1: artists to erase the names of previous pharaohs and kings
Speaker 1: and rulers and putting his name his cartouche on literally
Speaker 1: hundreds of sculptures. And we're going to talk about this
Speaker 1: today with Chris is there's a very famous sculpture that
Speaker 1: was cut from a probably about a two hundred and
Speaker 1: fifty to three hundred ton block of granite. It's in
Speaker 1: the Memphis this Museum in Egypt, and this considered Ramses
Speaker 1: the second. But what we're discovering is it has nothing
Speaker 1: to do with Ramseys, It has nothing to do with
Speaker 1: his period of rule, and it has everything to do
Speaker 1: with the previous people who were these genius, technologically advanced
Speaker 1: people who carved this sculpture. I was so blown away
Speaker 1: by this sculpture when I first saw it a few
Speaker 1: years ago that I was like, this is out of
Speaker 1: this planet. It's so well done. It's a monster. It's
Speaker 1: forty feet tall, almost forty feet tall. It's thirty seven
Speaker 1: point seven or eight or something, but it's huge, and
Speaker 1: it's so elegantly carved the face, the arms, the chest,
Speaker 1: the legs, and you have to see it. I have
Speaker 1: a whole group of photographs that I will post on
Speaker 1: the Facebook page. You'll also be able to see him
Speaker 1: on the YouTube channel if you watch Chris and My interview.
Speaker 1: But this is something that is coming to light more
Speaker 1: and more and more, and I think the Egyptological community
Speaker 1: has to pay more attention to the fact that this
Speaker 1: is not something just to consider as a rare occurrence.
Speaker 1: These statues have all the same space, style, all the same.
Speaker 1: We're talking about Ramseys too, And by the way, they're available.
Speaker 1: You can see them at Karnak, you can see them
Speaker 1: at Lukxer, you can see them in Valley of the Kings.
Speaker 1: These sculptures all look the same, their machine all the same,
Speaker 1: and they all have this strange smile. And what we're
Speaker 1: beginning to and we'll hear about this today, what we're
Speaker 1: beginning to discern is that it was almost like a
Speaker 1: image of man. This was the ideal man, this gorgeous
Speaker 1: statue that is all over the place, and it's not
Speaker 1: Ramsey's face.
Speaker 2: We don't know really what was.
Speaker 1: Going on during the reign of Ramsey's a second, there
Speaker 1: is some writing, but it's looking more and more like
Speaker 1: he's just claiming hundreds of artifacts and also temples and.
Speaker 2: Buildings. So this is really something we have to pay
Speaker 2: attention to.
Speaker 1: I'm going to have Robert Shock on the program with
Speaker 1: his wife Katie in a couple of weeks, and they
Speaker 1: have some startling new discoveries uncovering temples, pyramids and buildings
Speaker 1: that were protected prior to the great catastrophic event that
Speaker 1: befell the entire Earth. And you know, when we talk
Speaker 1: to people like Randall Carlson and and Mark Young and
Speaker 1: others who are catastrophists and also very much in line
Speaker 1: with this nine thy five hundred BC event, we have
Speaker 1: to be very plain about it and just basically say
Speaker 1: what it is. It was a terminating event. I don't
Speaker 1: think Randall says it's eighty percent death rate, but it's very,
Speaker 1: very high, and it was so devastating that when we
Speaker 1: look at Egypt, when we look at Middle America or
Speaker 1: meso America, which are the Maya, probably the Chinese, there
Speaker 1: were very few survivors and the vast majority of minds
Speaker 1: and scientists and engineers were killed. And so when we
Speaker 1: look at these temples, we had to consider them as
Speaker 1: the relics of this predynastic, advanced culture likely to have
Speaker 1: come from all over the planet, but specifically from a
Speaker 1: place known as Atlantis. So today's program is advanced machining
Speaker 1: in ancient Egypt. And my guest is Chris Dunn. So
Speaker 1: much in the news lately the SARS team scanning the pyramid.
Speaker 1: There are bits and pieces coming out about both the
Speaker 1: Caffrey and the Cufu pyramids. I've been talking on the
Speaker 1: show about these megalithic sculptures and just how in the
Speaker 1: hell they were cut because of their monstrosities. They look
Speaker 1: fake to me, they look artificially cut to me, and
Speaker 1: there's so much more. I've been wanting to touch base
Speaker 1: with it. It's time to bring back Chris Dunn on
Speaker 1: the program. It's been a couple of years that we've
Speaker 1: had him on the show. If you're not familiar with
Speaker 1: Chris Dunn, he is kind of the godfather of the
Speaker 1: whole machine movement, the advanced science, the Advanced machining, and
Speaker 1: Ancient Egypt. Wrote three books. The most famous that I
Speaker 1: would think of, the most well researched and referenced, is
Speaker 1: The Lost Technologies of Ancient Egypt. He also wrote a
Speaker 1: book called The Giza power Plant. His most recent book
Speaker 1: is Giza The Tesla Connection, and that's came out a
Speaker 1: couple of years ago. So Chris, good to see you.
Speaker 1: Welcome back to Earth.
Speaker 2: Ancients. How you doing.
Speaker 3: I'm doing okay, Cliff, how are you doing.
Speaker 1: I'm doing fantastic. I got you on the show. I'm
Speaker 1: gonna be able to work you over a little bit,
Speaker 1: ask you those YEA, yeah, but I'm a friendly face.
Speaker 1: I'm totally on your side and totally believe what you
Speaker 1: have written is the real McCoy. And I'm curious on
Speaker 1: your take on this. Stars a synthetic aperture radar scan
Speaker 1: that the team in Italy put together.
Speaker 2: We had all of.
Speaker 1: Them on the show a few months ago, Felipo Bioni
Speaker 1: and Armando may Corianda Malanga was also no, he was
Speaker 1: not on the show. He didn't speak English, so we
Speaker 1: had two out of the three. But I'm curious when
Speaker 1: you see these scans, Chris, and they're purported to go deep,
Speaker 1: deep under the ground. What what's your feeling on that?
Speaker 3: Ye? Well, I actually went through different phases of feelings
Speaker 3: about it, right the first My first was, oh no,
Speaker 3: that can't be right. And the one thing that really
Speaker 3: put me off the first time was the the the
Speaker 3: CAD drawings that were were extracted out of the out
Speaker 3: of the raw data, and I didn't quite understand how
Speaker 3: they could extract such clean cat drawings out of it.
Speaker 3: I mean, but I'm not the expert. And as I
Speaker 3: said I wrote, people were pushing me and saying you
Speaker 3: need to you need to talk. People want to know
Speaker 3: what you what you think about this, because you know
Speaker 3: this the potential to really support your theory on the
Speaker 3: on the Great Pyramid or the other pyramids. And I
Speaker 3: was like, well, okay, I'll respond, And so I responded
Speaker 3: and posted on Facebook and I also have that on
Speaker 3: my website zapower dot com. But my response was essentially
Speaker 3: non committal. At first. I was like, I'm not an expert.
Speaker 3: I'm not qualified to say whether this right or wrong.
Speaker 3: I know that there are elements here the overlapp with
Speaker 3: what I have written, and one particular was going back
Speaker 3: to my third book Giz of the Tesla Connection, and
Speaker 3: I am examining the the work of John Cadman and
Speaker 3: the the pump the post generator being in the in
Speaker 3: the subterranean chamber under the Great Pyramid, and not finding
Speaker 3: an outlet for that, I resorted to my original idea
Speaker 3: in the Gezer Popland that perhaps it was some kind
Speaker 3: of Tesla earthquake machine, an oscillator that caused the vibrations
Speaker 3: to be forced into the pyramid and also into the earth. Uh.
Speaker 3: But then I commented that with with the knowledge that
Speaker 3: there are the Giza Plaza is riddled with the shafts
Speaker 3: and tunnels. It seems that there is the possibility is
Speaker 3: that they there is what I call the big, big
Speaker 3: Daddy of post generators is actually under the Giza Plateau,
Speaker 3: deep under the Giza Plateau. So that's what I wrote
Speaker 3: at the time. Uh. And these chefs seem to kind
Speaker 3: of lean towards support for what I had written in
Speaker 3: the in Geezer the Tesla connection, though I was still
Speaker 3: conservative in my in my response, and and I just said, well,
Speaker 3: I think that just the raw data, we'll just look
Speaker 3: at the raw scans, that is sufficient to me to
Speaker 3: warrant further exploration and hopefully you know, be able to
Speaker 3: physically access that site. And and I think now that
Speaker 3: they are there is a movement happening in Egypt where
Speaker 3: they're going to start cleaning out one of the chefs
Speaker 3: on the on the Giza Plateau. And so hopefully you know,
Speaker 3: by the time you and I are there next year, uh,
Speaker 3: you in April, May and March, they may have found something.
Speaker 3: But since then, very interesting developments. I got a call
Speaker 3: from you know, my new Safe to day. Have you
Speaker 3: talked to him? Sure on the show. Yeah, yeah, he's
Speaker 3: a great guy. So he calls me up and he said, hey,
Speaker 3: you know, I have been working on this, uh the Sarascans,
Speaker 3: and and I think you need to take a closer
Speaker 3: look at at this because there is a correlation between
Speaker 3: the Giza power plant and the the size of these chefs, okay.
Speaker 3: And so he went through it with me, and basically
Speaker 3: what we have is a shaft or a column going
Speaker 3: down deep into the earth. It's about six hundred and
Speaker 3: forty eight meters deep.
Speaker 1: Is this the Caffre or the Cufu Pyramid?
Speaker 3: Well, it's Caffre, right, But there's also we have the
Speaker 3: same thing under the Great Pyramid, Kufu's pyramid now and
Speaker 3: I think the same the same depth, the same diameter
Speaker 3: columns exists under that one too. So what okay, So
Speaker 3: what is significant about it? If you if you look
Speaker 3: at the the columns going on going deep into the earth,
Speaker 3: you have a like an organ pipe, okay. And the
Speaker 3: organ pipe has a particular fundamental free andy and that
Speaker 3: fundamental frequency is a harmonic of the frequency of the
Speaker 3: ascending passage in the Great Pyramid. And so those two
Speaker 3: actually coupling together and functioning is kind of like, you know,
Speaker 3: a musical instrument where you have all these different parts
Speaker 3: that are playing and it gets really gets really loud
Speaker 3: really quickly. But the significance of why it's that deep
Speaker 3: is what it's really important to me. And it's not
Speaker 3: necessarily so much that, yes, the harmonics is one thing. Yes,
Speaker 3: to have features that are served as a pulse generator
Speaker 3: underneath the pyramids, that kind of supports the whole concept
Speaker 3: of the Geezer power plant. M But the fact that
Speaker 3: they they reached through the sedimentary layer of limestone and
Speaker 3: then into the igneous rock, probably another two hundred meters
Speaker 3: into the igneous rock, which is remarkable, uh remarkable feed
Speaker 3: of engineering for one thing. But you know, when you
Speaker 3: consider what else the ancient Egyptians did, you know, to
Speaker 3: find something like this is mildly surprising when you consider
Speaker 3: what's on top, right, the Great Pyramids, the pyramids themselves,
Speaker 3: but we're used to those, right, It's like there's no
Speaker 3: surprise here. Yeah, they've been there forever and now we've
Speaker 3: got these huge shafts reaching down into the earth. So
Speaker 3: what's so significant about them being embedded in the igneous rock? Well,
Speaker 3: you go back to we go to Freedom and Freund's
Speaker 3: research on earthquake lights and the underlying physics behind earthquake lights.
Speaker 3: And basically what he proposes that igneous rock, the minerals
Speaker 3: in igneous rock have these peroxy defaults that create positive
Speaker 3: charge carriers that if they're expressed, then those peeholes are
Speaker 3: positive charge carriers will shoot to the surface and they'll
Speaker 3: ionize in the air and create earthquake lights. So essentially
Speaker 3: what he's done is pointing a way to a source
Speaker 3: of electrons right under our feet. And he actually states
Speaker 3: that the Earth is just a huge battery. You know,
Speaker 3: it's a potential battery. All you need to do is
Speaker 3: rest the rock and you've got a source of electricity.
Speaker 3: And the ancient Egyptians and now I'm convinced Egyptian we're
Speaker 3: tapping into that. That that that physics that the Freud described.
Speaker 3: But Freund didn't just speculate, it didn't just you know,
Speaker 3: put out a theory on the paper. In terms of,
Speaker 3: you know, working the math and the physics. He did
Speaker 3: laboratory experiments on different different rocks, and he took a
Speaker 3: granite beam and put it in a hydraulic press and
Speaker 3: pressed down on one end and electrons flowed from one
Speaker 3: end to the other when it was under pressure. So
Speaker 3: he essentially proved out his theory. And so now you're
Speaker 3: asking the question why are those shafts going so deep,
Speaker 3: because they're actually going where the source of the electricity
Speaker 3: is to stimulate it out of than driving a pulse
Speaker 3: through hundreds of meat is limestone in order for it
Speaker 3: to tickle the granite, so to speak, it will be
Speaker 3: just they don't want to just tickle the granite, oh,
Speaker 3: the the igneous rock. They want to hammer it real hard.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: When you look at the.
Speaker 1: The renderings, though, I mean I think in I see
Speaker 1: two shafts, and there's staircases around the outer perimeter of
Speaker 1: these shafts, And I'm like, is that taking license and
Speaker 1: creating those or do you think they actually have staircases
Speaker 1: that go all the way down to the bottom of
Speaker 1: this thing? Because there's two and then there's two big
Speaker 1: rooms at the very bottom. And I you know, you're
Speaker 1: looking at a a scan, a star scan, and of
Speaker 1: course it's the it's the operator who's who's rendering this
Speaker 1: in three D according to some pattern. I mean, how
Speaker 1: accurate do you think that is?
Speaker 3: Yeah? I don't know. You see, that's it. I'm all.
Speaker 3: I'm all about getting physical measurements, you know, rather than
Speaker 3: than you know, taking that taking that data from like
Speaker 3: a point cloud. I mean you take a point cloud
Speaker 3: like the point cloud of the the scan Pyramid mission.
Speaker 3: Whether they did the muography, they detected that large void
Speaker 3: above the Grand Gallery, I mean that is very very
Speaker 3: low resolution, very rough. I mean, you couldn't really define
Speaker 3: what kind of shape is there. We just know that
Speaker 3: there is a void there. They can't even tell if
Speaker 3: it's not an angle or not. So you know, uh,
Speaker 3: I think it does require having physical access to inspect
Speaker 3: it before being sure of what you got. But you
Speaker 3: mentioned the spirals, and I was puzzled by that too,
Speaker 3: And basically I opened up a chat with AI and
Speaker 3: started feeling information into AI. And this is what man
Speaker 3: who was safe today had been doing, right, He had
Speaker 3: opened up a chat with AI and he was inquiring
Speaker 3: a PI all these features and putting them together. Yeah,
Speaker 3: and I was like really confirming the whole relationship between
Speaker 3: what is under the pyramids and the pyramids themselves. So
Speaker 3: I opened up a chat with AI and started to
Speaker 3: inquire about the purpose of spirals and I should qualify
Speaker 3: before I continue on that along that thought I did.
Speaker 3: I was at a conference in Chicago with Filipo, Beyondy
Speaker 3: and and Amanda May and Trevor I see in September.
Speaker 3: And it was actually sitting down with them and talking
Speaker 3: to them and and and actually receiving more information from
Speaker 3: Filipo and examine him more closely his his scans that
Speaker 3: I became convinced that what he had was was correct
Speaker 3: or close correct. I mean, I don't know what you
Speaker 3: would call precise in terms of measurements. If he's within
Speaker 3: an inch, I would say that would be pretty precise.
Speaker 3: But the as far as the spirals go, and what
Speaker 3: I saw, but he showed me uh uh yeah, I
Speaker 3: became a believer in totally. And and it's it's like
Speaker 3: right now, I can't It's like I can't, I can't
Speaker 3: imagine the I can't imagine the system. I've called him
Speaker 3: this the whole system. It's not just a great pyramid.
Speaker 3: It's Caffres pyramid, Mankarah all the way down to the sphinx.
Speaker 3: That's got one right. But I kind of imagine the
Speaker 3: system functioning without these chefs, without these columns.
Speaker 1: So it proves your theory of energy production. Is what
Speaker 1: you're suggesting is that these gonna I just call them
Speaker 1: introls because that's what they look like to me.
Speaker 2: Even though there are shafts, it's more like.
Speaker 1: You know, they're part of this machinery, right that is
Speaker 1: being uh defined in these not only your theories, but
Speaker 1: also in these scans.
Speaker 2: Did you have a chance to look at.
Speaker 1: The CUFU scans of twenty twenty two and the three
Speaker 1: three D rendering of all the shafts and rooms, and yeah.
Speaker 3: I kind of tuned that one out because it was
Speaker 3: really too good, you know, it's like and too radically
Speaker 3: different from what we knew about. And then also knowing
Speaker 3: that they had the mooography scanning going on before then
Speaker 3: with nothing like that being being detected, that kind of
Speaker 3: raised a bit of a red flag for me. Now
Speaker 3: I am like, I'm not totally against it, but I
Speaker 3: would wait for the proof really before all of that,
Speaker 3: all of that that precise geometry is correct. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 3: be hard, It be hard to be how to say, yeah,
Speaker 3: to say that right now? I can't say that right now.
Speaker 3: And similarly, I mean they he's also detected like five
Speaker 3: kings chamber of complexes inside Cafris pyramid, you know, the
Speaker 3: another one, the multi a granite beams above it. Yeah,
Speaker 3: and that was surprising to me, and I was like,
Speaker 3: whoa uh, because you consider that that that information is
Speaker 3: a shock to my system. Yeah, imagine what a shock
Speaker 3: it is to zaihuas well.
Speaker 1: He doesn't he doesn't acknowledge anything. He just the few
Speaker 1: this is hogwash. I mean that's his I don't know, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean that's his.
Speaker 3: That's his usual go too yeah, and has been forever forever.
Speaker 3: I don't know him to be any different. So he
Speaker 3: was that way with the Carbon fourteen, he was that
Speaker 3: way with the Scam Pyramid mission, is that way with
Speaker 3: the sascan.
Speaker 1: So, you know, I think he embarrassed himself on the
Speaker 1: Joe Rogan program when he said he questioned what is
Speaker 1: as a zep teppy? He didn't know what that was,
Speaker 1: and he didn't know what go Beckley tepp he was.
Speaker 1: And I think people were shocked that he was. So
Speaker 1: I don't know if he forgot or he just wasn't
Speaker 1: part of his vernacular.
Speaker 3: Well know, he knew. I think he knew what go
Speaker 3: Beckley tep he was. I mean I thought that he
Speaker 3: had commented on that way back when it was first discovered.
Speaker 3: But you know, well he and I about the same age,
Speaker 3: so I can forgive a certain amount of forgetfulness.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I.
Speaker 1: One thing and then we're going to move on one
Speaker 1: thing about the stars technology that I didn't realize, and
Speaker 1: I was shocked. I had a retired special Ops service
Speaker 1: men call and not come. He emailed me and said
Speaker 1: that the service that the military was using these scans
Speaker 1: and had been for decades.
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, I mean, and Filipo had been using them
Speaker 3: on various installations around around the world. So yeah, and
Speaker 3: in Italy, so that you know, it's not like he
Speaker 3: didn't He was an amateur. He didn't know what he
Speaker 3: was doing. All that the technology had not been qualified.
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, we must be under top secret level
Speaker 1: types of usage. You know, no one really knows about it.
Speaker 1: And maybe SARS exposed the military's use.
Speaker 3: Of it, you know, I don't know. Well, it suddenly
Speaker 3: exploded across the planet like a wildfire, didn't it. Totally amazing,
Speaker 3: talk about a fading frenzy.
Speaker 1: We're going to take a short commercial break to allow
Speaker 1: our sponsors to identify themselves, and we will return shortly
Speaker 1: with my guest today, Chris Dunn, discussing advanced machining in
Speaker 1: ancient Egypt. Will be right back. The articles we're discussing
Speaker 1: on this podcast are available on Chris don dot com,
Speaker 1: his website as well as Earthagents dot com, and you
Speaker 1: also can find them on our Facebook page. I'll post
Speaker 1: two of the most important articles, one dealing with the
Speaker 1: synthetic aperture radar question, and also a couple of others
Speaker 1: having to do with the Ramsey sculpture. Talk real quickly
Speaker 1: about what you think the future holds for the star scan.
Speaker 1: I don't see the Antiquities Department spending a lot of
Speaker 1: time looking for shafts in new rooms and deep under.
Speaker 1: They don't have the technology to start digging, and it
Speaker 1: feels like it they wouldn't allow that to happen. But
Speaker 1: what do you what do you think the future holds
Speaker 1: for the analysis that the stars scans presents.
Speaker 3: Uh? Yeah, I think it's going to take a long time.
Speaker 3: That you know, because I think you have you have
Speaker 3: the technology, the science, and then you have the politics
Speaker 3: and so you know, sometimes dealing with the science and
Speaker 3: the and the math is the easiest part. But they
Speaker 3: but the politics is a little more tender and sensitive.
Speaker 3: So I would say that over time, I mean, there
Speaker 3: are young, younger Egyptologists coming up. There are young engineers
Speaker 3: who are now studying the the antiquities with the same
Speaker 3: kind of perspective that you and I have on them.
Speaker 3: And uh and you know, I mean our friend Muhammad
Speaker 3: has been carrying the torch now for quite a few
Speaker 3: years and does a great job. Yeah. Oh, you know,
Speaker 3: it's kind of like, yeah, there's a a ground swell
Speaker 3: of interest in Egypt and throughout the Arabic world on
Speaker 3: the on the heritage of that of that area of
Speaker 3: the world, because they're now waking up to the fact
Speaker 3: that their history needs to be rewritten. Yeah, not by
Speaker 3: Westerners this time. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So you're you're probably have prophesied correctly, Chris when you're
Speaker 1: saying that it's probably going to be fifty or a
Speaker 1: couple of generations away from really digging in deep and
Speaker 1: getting the permissions, which is what has to happen to
Speaker 1: dig underneath the Giza plateau.
Speaker 3: Right, Well, it's not going to be in my lifetime.
Speaker 3: I don't think the you know, the when I look
Speaker 3: when I look at it, Yeah, I look at it
Speaker 3: from a kind of like a ten thousand foot view.
Speaker 3: It's I came along and published Advanced Machining in Ancient
Speaker 3: Egypt one hundred years after William Flynno's Petrie published and
Speaker 3: Temples of Visa.
Speaker 2: That's hope. It's not going to be one hundred years.
Speaker 3: God, so it could be one hundred years, my friend.
Speaker 2: No, I don't want to hear that. I'm hoping that we.
Speaker 3: No, no, no, I think that you know, the cats
Speaker 3: Flinders Peachey was definitely constrained in his writing. I mean
Speaker 3: for obvious reasons. I mean, the the culture at that time,
Speaker 3: and it wouldn't have allowed him to have the same
Speaker 3: kind of freedom that I have had to you know,
Speaker 3: publish my thoughts. Right. In fact, you know, the Geezer
Speaker 3: Power Planet barely got published. If it wasn't for Barbara
Speaker 3: han Klow, who were believed in it, they wouldn't have
Speaker 3: been published because her everybody at Baron Company were going,
Speaker 3: you've got to be crazy published book.
Speaker 2: I'm so glad that she did.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1: I interviewed a each of timelogists about two years ago.
Speaker 1: Her name is Karacuney. She is a professor at UCLA
Speaker 1: down southern California. She wrote a book called Recycling for Dead,
Speaker 1: And what was as absolutely fascinating about this book is
Speaker 1: that Egyptologists have begun to understand that recycling and repurposing
Speaker 1: and reusing temples, death masks, entire burial sites. It was
Speaker 1: the norm during the Faronic period, Old Kingdom, Middle Kingdom,
Speaker 1: Late Kingdom. And one of the things that I didn't
Speaker 1: realize is that they also understood that Ramses the Second,
Speaker 1: who was known as the Great Usurper, who was constantly
Speaker 1: reusing things, wasn't the only one who was reusing pyramids
Speaker 1: and statuary and other items for their dynasties. And the
Speaker 1: point I'm trying to make here is that these guys,
Speaker 1: I'm really beginning to think and want your opinion about that,
Speaker 1: that they weren't so great. After all, they didn't have
Speaker 1: the brilliant engineers and scientists and whatever they inherited it
Speaker 1: a great deal of it. We'll talk about the statuary
Speaker 1: in a minute, but I'm curious, after you've written your books,
Speaker 1: do we have a better sense of the pre dynastic people.
Speaker 1: Do we have a better sense of I mean, you
Speaker 1: show us how brilliant they were in constructing the pyramids
Speaker 1: and making them generators. But have you come any closer
Speaker 1: to an understanding of just who these people were. We
Speaker 1: know that their science base is on earth energies, but
Speaker 1: I mean, these guys are completely unique. They're nothing close
Speaker 1: to who we are today or who the pharaohs in
Speaker 1: the Furonic period was.
Speaker 3: Right, Well, yeah, I that's hard to say. I mean,
Speaker 3: you know, when you look back sixty seventy years and
Speaker 3: you see the culture and the way it was functioning.
Speaker 3: Then if you had presented them with a view into
Speaker 3: the future where we're living and how we're operating, what
Speaker 3: we look like and yeah, walking around with our cell
Speaker 3: phones and they it will be foreign to them, right,
Speaker 3: Who are these people? Who are they? Who are these people?
Speaker 3: And yeah, I'm looking back, you know, into the forties
Speaker 3: and fifties, it's totally different culture. But to your point,
Speaker 3: I'm I've always been pretty much on solid ground in
Speaker 3: terms of uh, my thinking gone, who these people were?
Speaker 3: And well, it's hard to know what any individual is thinking,
Speaker 3: what their belief systems are, or you know, what they
Speaker 3: carrying around in their head most of the day. Though
Speaker 3: these days, sadly we find out what was on their
Speaker 3: minds if we log into X or Facebook. But that's
Speaker 3: another matter, right, But the but the the issue for
Speaker 3: me is not necessarily you know, what their religion was
Speaker 3: or what they they believed in, but about the afterlife.
Speaker 3: But there's one aspect of the thinking is is very
Speaker 3: very clear. They were thinking like engineers and they are
Speaker 3: working within with three dimensional materials, shaping them with the
Speaker 3: HUT to a high level of precision, and that requires
Speaker 3: certain skills and tools in order to accomplish that. So
Speaker 3: at least we know that it's unambiguous, regardless of what
Speaker 3: an archaeologist might tell you, it's unambiguous the fact that
Speaker 3: they had access to sophisticated machinery. And you know, the
Speaker 3: question is to what level if we compare our machines
Speaker 3: today to the machines that were I was operating sixty
Speaker 3: years ago, then there's a big difference, you know, because
Speaker 3: of the advances in computer science and computer numerical control
Speaker 3: machines and stuff like that. We didn't have anything back then.
Speaker 3: So I know today that's very popular to say, well,
Speaker 3: you know it, take for instance, the bases, the pre
Speaker 3: dynastic bases that show this remarkable accuracy and precision and
Speaker 3: geometry they have you have modern machinist too. It was
Speaker 3: only concept of doing any of any work similar to
Speaker 3: that would be a CNC machine. And so you'll you'll
Speaker 3: read people who are arguing, no, it had to be CNC,
Speaker 3: you couldn't do that manually. But I was a manual
Speaker 3: machinists for many years. In fact, I was a journeyman
Speaker 3: later and I can and I made parts that you know,
Speaker 3: you would run on a machine CNC machine today. But
Speaker 3: back when I was working in the shops, it was
Speaker 3: like we used three dimensional profiling equipment that worked tough
Speaker 3: of models or templates and those were Keller machines and
Speaker 3: UH true trace hydraulic tracing equipment and even manual tracing equipment.
Speaker 3: So as far as the culture in terms of UH
Speaker 3: what else, what what did these engineers do when they
Speaker 3: went home right after they had what? What did? What?
Speaker 3: What did they have access to? Uh? And we can
Speaker 3: only leave that to our to our imagination, because I
Speaker 3: think most of the most of the material gods that
Speaker 3: have not survived over the millennia, and you know we
Speaker 3: are talking millennium going back thousands and thousands of years,
Speaker 3: and so archaeologists are now studying the remains of more
Speaker 3: recent settlements, I think, and.
Speaker 1: Which is kind of boring if you ask me, It's
Speaker 1: like digging up wooden coffins.
Speaker 2: Is this is big?
Speaker 1: This is Aahi Hawas's big claim of famous publishing Sakara
Speaker 1: coffin and the wood paintings are so boring to me.
Speaker 3: Well, you know, I could not I could not be
Speaker 3: an archaeologist. You know, I don't have I don't have
Speaker 3: the patience to do the the and so and it's
Speaker 3: is it's not as uh, it's ambiguous, and I think,
Speaker 3: and it's open to interpretation. In fact, I was reading
Speaker 3: an article about the Pompeii and the the analysis of
Speaker 3: Pompeii and the you know, the the plaster forms where
Speaker 3: they went in and they filled these cavities and then
Speaker 3: relieve them, and they shows.
Speaker 1: How the people, oh, how the people died during the earthquake,
Speaker 1: the volcanic eruption.
Speaker 3: Of volcanic eruption right right, And I found it fascinating.
Speaker 3: And that the the narrator was talking about how introducing
Speaker 3: how using AI to interpret the evidence, we uh revealed
Speaker 3: the more accurate result because they didn't have that human
Speaker 3: kind of prejudice or you know somebody who is a
Speaker 3: good point I'd been taught one way and is they're
Speaker 3: going to interpret something along those lines, and it's a
Speaker 3: little more nuanced. And AI is looking at a wider database,
Speaker 3: is pulling things in and crunching numbers and coming up
Speaker 3: with a more accurate picture. And so you know, I
Speaker 3: think with the use of AI like that such as
Speaker 3: I mean, I think POMPEII is a is a prime
Speaker 3: is a prime example of where it would be beneficial.
Speaker 3: So I'm the two people I know are three well
Speaker 3: I know who using Well, for now, we've got Philippo Beyonder,
Speaker 3: he's using AI. My news say today he is using AI.
Speaker 3: I'm using it a little bit. And there's a guy
Speaker 3: Austin Moore who is an engineer in Detroit who has
Speaker 3: created a paper because he was querying the functionality of
Speaker 3: the Geezer power plant using AI and and so yeah,
Speaker 3: it does. It does kind of take the the emotions
Speaker 3: out of it and the prejudices out of it. So
Speaker 3: you know, I think you were shocked when I mentioned
Speaker 3: one hundred years into the future, you know, one hundred
Speaker 3: years since Petrie and now we're going to go one
Speaker 3: hundred years. Uh, the way things are, the way things
Speaker 3: are going right now, I think it's going to be
Speaker 3: a a lot faster than that. Yeah, I know things
Speaker 3: are changing so fast, so I can't keep up.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know.
Speaker 1: It's funny because one of the reasons I wanted to
Speaker 1: talk to you about the previous civilization, the pre Dynastics
Speaker 1: or pre Egyptians. I don't know if we can even
Speaker 1: call them Egyptians. It's in Egypt. But if these early
Speaker 1: people came from another part of the world, who knows
Speaker 1: what we call them. But when I was in Memphis, Egypt,
Speaker 1: two years ago, Muhammad took us to an outdoor museum
Speaker 1: that had this Ramses sculpture laying on its back, and
Speaker 1: it was thirty five almost I think forty feet tall.
Speaker 1: It had been found previously half buried, but it was
Speaker 1: such a work of alliance, Chris, and from my eye,
Speaker 1: there's no way in hell it was carved by hand.
Speaker 1: And in your book on Lost Technologies, you describe how
Speaker 1: to determine hand and this is what I want to
Speaker 1: get to hand carved versus machine carved sculpture sculptures. This
Speaker 1: thing not only was elegantly carved, it was beautiful, but
Speaker 1: it was not carved by And I'm an artist, I'm
Speaker 1: training the illustrator, and I could tell there wasn't anything
Speaker 1: that was hand a human touch, a chisel or perhaps
Speaker 1: some kind of electric chisel. But what makes it fascinating
Speaker 1: and why there's so much confusion on these Ramseys sculptures
Speaker 1: is that the guy sticks his cartoonshe on it, puts
Speaker 1: his signature on it, and the Egyptologists, not looking at
Speaker 1: the actual form of the sculpture, they accept the fact
Speaker 1: or they think it's a fact that this was carved
Speaker 1: during Ramsey's period. Talk a little bit about why precision
Speaker 1: sculptural work is machined over hand carved.
Speaker 3: You actually you started right at the genesis of my
Speaker 3: my work on the Ramsey statue.
Speaker 1: Yeah, let me get stop you real quickly. Talk about you.
Speaker 1: I think you're at the Ramsey Ramsey in looks or
Speaker 1: when you saw that one Ramsey's head and that was
Speaker 1: kind of like something something's off here. You're you're kind
Speaker 1: of going, something's off here. I gotta look a little closer.
Speaker 3: Yeah. No, it was actually in the first time I
Speaker 3: went to Egypt and I went to the the Memphis, right, Yeah,
Speaker 3: and so I was an interest that in temples or
Speaker 3: statues or anything like that. I was, you know, I
Speaker 3: was just interested in mechanical engineering stuff, right. But I
Speaker 3: was looking down the length of this statue that you're
Speaker 3: referring to, and indeed, it's a beautifully carved statue, gorgeous statue.
Speaker 3: And the one thing that I noticed that struck me
Speaker 3: was the symmetry. Right away, I know symmetry, and that
Speaker 3: is the It was the nostrils. They seem to be perfect.
Speaker 3: I was like, no, no normal person has, you know,
Speaker 3: identical nostrils, right, yeah, So that was that's what I
Speaker 3: first noticed, and I put that in my memory banks
Speaker 3: and just moved on. Right, that was nice. But then
Speaker 3: to your point, actually trying to determine whether something it
Speaker 3: has been machined or been hand tooled. For me, it
Speaker 3: is about geometry and precision. And so when you consider that,
Speaker 3: there are different ways to create a three dimensional object,
Speaker 3: Like if you're a sculptor, you would you may draw
Speaker 3: an outline on a piece of rock and then start
Speaker 3: chiseling away until you reach your final form. And then
Speaker 3: you know, if you want to create some symmetry, you
Speaker 3: may use a pointer from one side to another, but
Speaker 3: to within what accuracy? That is the question, what precision?
Speaker 3: And so when my first attempt at determining symmetry and
Speaker 3: precision in Egypt was not on the statue, not on
Speaker 3: the face of the statue, but on the crowns and
Speaker 3: the white crown of per Egypt, which is like a
Speaker 3: it's like an ellipsoid shape.
Speaker 1: Is that the headge yet they called the hedge yet?
Speaker 3: Yeah, the head yet, right, and it kind of leans
Speaker 3: back like a bowling pin. It's got a top knot
Speaker 3: on it, but it's like like a beautifully curved ellipse right, right,
Speaker 3: And so they were when I first went to the
Speaker 3: Luxo Tempo was in two thousand and four, and I
Speaker 3: was noticing these these white crowns at the feet of
Speaker 3: the Ramseys statues, the standing the walking statues in the
Speaker 3: in the Ramses, and everybody was off chatting about the
Speaker 3: hieroglyphs on the wall and the reliefs on the wall,
Speaker 3: and I was running my hands over the surface of
Speaker 3: this granite that is like, wow, that's that's smooth. No, no,
Speaker 3: no wrinkles, no, yeah, like that's really fine workmanship. And
Speaker 3: that stayed with me until two thousand and six, and
Speaker 3: I went over in February of two thousand and six
Speaker 3: with John Anthony West and so we were in the
Speaker 3: again in the Ramsys Hall, and he's talking about swallowedy
Speaker 3: lupics and I wanted to learn about shwallowed dalubics.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 3: But then my attention was drawn back to the Crowns
Speaker 3: and I had I had a digital camera with me
Speaker 3: that time, so the photographs and what I I had
Speaker 3: my computer too, with my graphics software, I was capable
Speaker 3: of manipulating, you know, the images so that I could
Speaker 3: compare one side to the other to see if they
Speaker 3: were symmetrical. And so that was the first time that
Speaker 3: I actually did the reverse transparency comparison right and came
Speaker 3: up with just like a perfect match on the Crowns.
Speaker 3: I mean, it was just and that All those are
Speaker 3: in my book and on my website. If people want
Speaker 3: to go to my website, look up some look at
Speaker 3: the photographs I have up there. So the that was
Speaker 3: the start. It's kind of like, you know, like you're
Speaker 3: peeling off you're peeling off layers of an onion. You go,
Speaker 3: you go down one layer, and then you know it's
Speaker 3: kind of like, well, Okay, I've done this, so I
Speaker 3: wonder what's going to happen if I do this? And
Speaker 3: so after after photographing the crowns, then I was like, well, okay,
Speaker 3: odds against odds, I've got to do you the face,
Speaker 3: I've got to do the heads right. And so they
Speaker 3: had this bust of Gramses out front next to the
Speaker 3: the obelis and unfortunately they mounted that bust on top
Speaker 3: of a body. Now it's a part of the standing
Speaker 3: statue nearby.
Speaker 1: But you're lucky to see it down at the eye
Speaker 1: level too, weren't.
Speaker 3: You right right? Yeah, he was right there in front
Speaker 3: of me. I mean, you know you could go out
Speaker 3: and touch it, and you did. But anyway, so I
Speaker 3: took a couple of photographs of there and took that
Speaker 3: in my into my laptop and I'm going, wow, Okay.
Speaker 3: So I had a situation where I could line up
Speaker 3: the jaw line. So you've got to remember, now you've
Speaker 3: got this is I'm looking at a two D image
Speaker 3: of a three dimensional object, right, and so the jaw
Speaker 3: line is coming down, it's moving in three dimensions, and
Speaker 3: it's showing that it matches from both sides, right, And
Speaker 3: I would going Okay, that's remarkable. Now to what accuracy
Speaker 3: that is another question, you know, is it within ten
Speaker 3: thousands of an inch? Five thousands? I don't know. But
Speaker 3: then there was another aspect to another feature, which was
Speaker 3: the nose, and the nose was slightly off center, so
Speaker 3: you know, you had to My camera was evidently just
Speaker 3: rotated just a little bit so that I didn't get
Speaker 3: the nose directly centered between the jaw, and so I
Speaker 3: did more of it than you know, when you're on tour,
Speaker 3: as you know, you're in and you're off, and then
Speaker 3: you're on the bus or you're on the plane or
Speaker 3: you're going somewhere, right, and it's all great fun. But
Speaker 3: the uh, but the uh. But the real work came
Speaker 3: when I got home and I started examining those photographs
Speaker 3: at home at my leisure and doing a deep dive
Speaker 3: on them, and and then I was like, crap, I've
Speaker 3: got to go back to Egypt.
Speaker 1: We're going to take a short commercial break to allow
Speaker 1: our sponsors to identify themselves, and will return shortly with
Speaker 1: my guest today, Chris Dunn, discussing machining in ancient Egypt.
Speaker 2: Will be right.
Speaker 1: Back, Okay, I guess today is Christan. He has written
Speaker 1: a number of books, most notably Advanced Machining in Ancient Egypt.
Speaker 1: Today we're discussing a number of topics having to do
Speaker 1: with what look to be machine cuts in statuary. So
Speaker 1: you got into it so heavy that you needed to
Speaker 1: have confirmation of your theories.
Speaker 3: Right, I mean I had to have I understand. I
Speaker 3: need to go back. I need to have a good
Speaker 3: a good tripod. I need to be able to photograph things.
Speaker 3: And and so I went to my boss and I said, hey,
Speaker 3: I need to go back to Egypt. And he's like,
Speaker 3: why you just got back? Why are you going back there?
Speaker 3: I left something there? Well do you leave. I'll I'll
Speaker 3: bring my laptop in tomorrow and i'll show you. So
Speaker 3: the next day I brought my laptop in and I
Speaker 3: was showing him the what I had, you know, the
Speaker 3: not quite perfect image of Ramses and what I was
Speaker 3: how I was analyzing it. And he his eyes open
Speaker 3: and he goes, oh, I see what you mean. Yeah, okay,
Speaker 3: I get it all right. So but you put him
Speaker 3: for your time. And then the following day he comes
Speaker 3: in there you going alone, He said, this is jud Pack.
Speaker 3: He was the CEO of the company that you're going
Speaker 3: over there alone. I said, yeah, I was planning on it. Well,
Speaker 3: can I carry your tripod?
Speaker 2: You never told me your boss went with you?
Speaker 1: Yes, Oh yeah, I didn't know that.
Speaker 3: Yeah. So he was the CEO of Damvill Metal Stamping
Speaker 3: and still is. So is like really keen on going
Speaker 3: over and actually being a part of it. And so
Speaker 3: we went went back in May and I spent like
Speaker 3: I don't know, six hours inside Luxe Temple, uh, and
Speaker 3: multiple a couple of days in the in the Dender
Speaker 3: Temple because that's another amazing, amazing place. But the work
Speaker 3: in the uh, the Luxe Temple uh was I think
Speaker 3: very significant, and and I think, like you said, I
Speaker 3: don't think it has been given enough attention. Uh. That
Speaker 3: may be because of uh, some misinformation that has been
Speaker 3: put out because you've got you've got my book, and
Speaker 3: you've got the information from my book. Most of the
Speaker 3: knowledge of the symmetry of Ramsay's that that has been
Speaker 3: presented by other people on on the internet, on YouTube
Speaker 3: videos and and so, and they don't have the full
Speaker 3: and including myself, without accessing the source material and knowing
Speaker 3: you know, the methods and the observations of the the
Speaker 3: author of the you know, the the person who has
Speaker 3: made this discovery, then you may come to the wrong conclusion.
Speaker 3: And and so that wrong conclusion was that I had lied.
Speaker 3: I was dishonest in not in not pointing out the
Speaker 3: lack of symmetry in parts of the statue. And so
Speaker 3: it was kind of like, uh, wait a minute, I did.
Speaker 3: It's in my book. And so, you know, but the
Speaker 3: you know, when somebody you get these people who for
Speaker 3: some reason, there have been a few out there that
Speaker 3: are really taken or dislike to me and my work
Speaker 3: and have been actively work talking against it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well they must be threatened, though, Chris.
Speaker 2: They must be.
Speaker 1: Threatened by your clarity that there was an advanced science
Speaker 1: behind the cutting of these statues. Because if we talk
Speaker 1: about the Ramsey two at Memphis, that eighty two ton
Speaker 1: statue was cut out of a block that was probably
Speaker 1: one hundred and fifty or two hundred ton, and it
Speaker 1: was done with such level of precision that no one
Speaker 1: pays attention to it. They just think it's a beautiful statue,
Speaker 1: but they're not looking closer. Talk about the precision aspect
Speaker 1: and why that is so important. And if you want
Speaker 1: to give the z to head that you saw it
Speaker 1: looks for as an example, go ahead.
Speaker 3: Yes, Well, the essentially, you know, from my background in manufacturing,
Speaker 3: I'm fully familiar with three dimensional machining of products such
Speaker 3: as you know, parts for car bodies or you know
Speaker 3: airplane parts are and aircraft engine where you are machining
Speaker 3: dyes over which metal will be stretched and formed and
Speaker 3: stuff like that, and so those dyes have to be
Speaker 3: precise when you have a when you have a dye
Speaker 3: that has symmetrical parts to it, you have programmed just
Speaker 3: one half and then mirror it to create the other
Speaker 3: half and then which was together to give you complete
Speaker 3: complete shape. And so all of this was in my
Speaker 3: background in terms of how I look at product. And
Speaker 3: if you consider that I was looking at the Ramsey
Speaker 3: statue as a product. And so it's just like you're
Speaker 3: looking at the vases that are precise to within two
Speaker 3: thousands of an inch, or you're looking at the boxes
Speaker 3: in the serapium and the surfaces that are flat with
Speaker 3: you know, some parts of the boxes not so flat,
Speaker 3: but the majority of the surfaces are are very flat
Speaker 3: and uh and square. And so you have all of
Speaker 3: these products different products, right, that are displaying that underlying
Speaker 3: knowledge and and craftsmanship, and it's being applied in different ways. Right,
Speaker 3: It's not a fluke, it's not a one off. It's
Speaker 3: not a coincidence, which you know, a lot of people
Speaker 3: would like to say, oh, well, you know, they just
Speaker 3: got lucky. No such thing as luck here. I mean
Speaker 3: this is this is a tightly controlled discipline. It's like
Speaker 3: our manufactured items are tightly controlled. We have standards that
Speaker 3: we have to hold, and we have a measurement system
Speaker 3: that we use, and so it's obvious in their artifacts
Speaker 3: that they had to have had the same thing. So
Speaker 3: when when I look at when I think of decision
Speaker 3: for me, it's the photographs are basically a bell. I'm right, okay,
Speaker 3: I'm ringing the bell here. This needs to receive a
Speaker 3: little more attention in terms of basically it appears to
Speaker 3: be very symmetrical and very precise. So the next step
Speaker 3: would be to give it some metrilogical inspection using a
Speaker 3: state of the art tools like laser scanners and CMM
Speaker 3: kind of machines, you know, things like that, and then
Speaker 3: to do to do some analysis in the computer. The
Speaker 3: same thing I did, except in three three D software
Speaker 3: which will reveal not just the outline of the jaw,
Speaker 3: but the whole surface of the cheeks and you know,
Speaker 3: the face, and then compare one side to the next
Speaker 3: to see how much variation you get between the two.
Speaker 3: That's when you would say, Okay, yeah, this had to
Speaker 3: have been machined, because the human hand is not capable
Speaker 3: of holding that kind of precision, such as like the
Speaker 3: pre dynastic vases. You can't make one of those by
Speaker 3: hand and achieve the same kind of precision. It's just
Speaker 3: impossible to do. Oh anyway, that's not basically it. And
Speaker 3: we're I don't know if we're in stage one, two
Speaker 3: or three right now. We're in. The book has been
Speaker 3: out since twenty ten, it's now twenty twenty five, so
Speaker 3: fifteen years, and it's it is getting more attention, and
Speaker 3: you know, a lot of the controversies are dropping away.
Speaker 3: I'm trying to respond to the critics in a way
Speaker 3: that I'm not arguing with them or arguing past them
Speaker 3: on the internet, you know, But to publish something that
Speaker 3: is a reasonable person could understand. Yeah, And you know
Speaker 3: the other part is that I'm a serious researcher and
Speaker 3: I have written a book and when you tell somebody
Speaker 3: that there is a more detailed response to your questions
Speaker 3: in my book, it seems they get upset because you
Speaker 3: are telling them read my book. You know. It's kind
Speaker 3: of like all the criticism the Haas received of Joe
Speaker 3: Rogan when he says it's in my book.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, totally weird.
Speaker 3: It's in my book. So that seems to be a
Speaker 3: negative these days for people who don't like to read
Speaker 3: books to get their information on YouTube.
Speaker 1: So at this point, after years of the book's been
Speaker 1: out and you've had a chance to sit and maybe
Speaker 1: ruminate on this whole thing, do you think that they
Speaker 1: had something like a software application that had a that
Speaker 1: was cut, what was attached to some kind of cutting
Speaker 1: device that would create such perfection do we have Do
Speaker 1: you have any sense that you could grasp onto without
Speaker 1: you know, I mean it's all obviously, it's all theory.
Speaker 1: But when you look at these Ramsey two faces that
Speaker 1: are so perfectly cut and with such symmetry and such elegance,
Speaker 1: there's a human there's a human element to it. But
Speaker 1: then when you look at the actual cutting, there's no
Speaker 1: human hands involved. It's all some kind of machine.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean if I was to say
Speaker 3: how far by, how far backwards would we go in
Speaker 3: you know, in our civilization or development of technology. If
Speaker 3: you start out back in the the Industrial Revolution in
Speaker 3: the eighteen hundred seventeen hundreds, we didn't have the capability
Speaker 3: to make those statues. Yeah, you know. And so then
Speaker 3: moving forward with the combination of mechanical templates models to
Speaker 3: trace from, does that bring it into range? I don't know.
Speaker 3: I think even if what what you had was, uh,
Speaker 3: it was just mechanical machines, I don't think you I
Speaker 3: wouldn't attempt it, you know. Yeah, And so we are
Speaker 3: moving forward to an era where uh the guidance of
Speaker 3: machine tools is uh programmed into the machine rather than
Speaker 3: uh so that a human has no kind of interaction
Speaker 3: except just to set it up and style it, start
Speaker 3: the machine, let it run.
Speaker 1: Do you have any sense of that, though, Chris? Do
Speaker 1: you think that when I look at this Ramsey head
Speaker 1: and the beauty and the and the precision of the
Speaker 1: nostrils and the eye and the ear and the mouth,
Speaker 1: and you talk a lot about the mouth and your book,
Speaker 1: is it like somebody said, Okay, here's a block of granite,
Speaker 1: red granite. I'm gonna set up, I'm gonna place it
Speaker 1: in this machine. I'm going to press a button, and
Speaker 1: I'm not going to see it until it's done. Is
Speaker 1: that Is that the sense you get out of that?
Speaker 2: Really? That's that's pretty amazing. Then.
Speaker 1: So it's like, I think years ago you use the
Speaker 1: term like garden variety sculpture. It's like it's made for
Speaker 1: the garden. You know, there's no human element in there
Speaker 1: at all, except.
Speaker 3: Well, you know the Ramseys. Though if you look at
Speaker 3: the Ramsey's face, it's consistent. Uh, you recognize our face
Speaker 3: for wherever you see it, and it has the same characteristic.
Speaker 3: So you know, it's kind of like they had they
Speaker 3: had a template or some kind of template, whether it
Speaker 3: was a physical template or electronic template. Uh. But they
Speaker 3: were basically replicating that same shape over and over again
Speaker 3: because you know that they have already had the program
Speaker 3: and anybody could run it. Right. Yeah, But now now
Speaker 3: that you see that, think of it this way though,
Speaker 3: Think of it this way. These are the these are
Speaker 3: the people that built the pyramids and dug them holes
Speaker 3: deep into the earth, right, I mean, they were doing
Speaker 3: some pretty amazing ship back then.
Speaker 2: Exactly right.
Speaker 3: It's kind of like we we are, we are, we
Speaker 3: are living with all of these modern mudd and things
Speaker 3: all around us and looking into the past, and we're
Speaker 3: seeing a civilization that already determined that coal wasn't the answer,
Speaker 3: that they were going to grab the electrons from under
Speaker 3: their feet.
Speaker 1: Way ahead of us, ahead of us, right. Yeah, but
Speaker 1: you know, it even makes less sense that Ramsey would
Speaker 1: put his cartoush on anything that looks like that. We
Speaker 1: now define that that look that face that lips the
Speaker 1: nose of the ears, the eyes of the sculpture that
Speaker 1: we claim as Ramses. The second it could be the
Speaker 1: Predynastics version of man. This represents man and and the
Speaker 1: Egyptologists not having anything to go on, and Ramsey is
Speaker 1: cartoush on everything. They claim that this is Ramses. It's
Speaker 1: not Ramses, is it?
Speaker 3: No? I don't think so. I mean, they definitely did
Speaker 3: did some work, did some adjustments to the face. They
Speaker 3: exaggerated the smile, all right. So the yeah, the mouth
Speaker 3: is uptowned like this, right. The reason for that is
Speaker 3: because this statue is what twenty feet tall looking down? Yes,
Speaker 3: and if the normal mouth you know, which is basically
Speaker 3: straight across, right, uh, it would look down to that mouth,
Speaker 3: would look down and you won't get the smile if
Speaker 3: you're looking up at it from below. And so you
Speaker 3: have these optical trickery, this optical trickery on on the
Speaker 3: on the face. Also the engineering that went into the
Speaker 3: design of the statues where they strengthened the head by
Speaker 3: giving it a beard or a gusst from here down here,
Speaker 3: and then they have the headdress strengthening attached to the shoulders.
Speaker 3: The elbows were attached to the thighs, which is an
Speaker 3: unnatural a condition for a human. Uh So, yeah, I
Speaker 3: mean there's just a lot of a lot of different
Speaker 3: features on the on those statues. Plus there's there are
Speaker 3: these mistakes. You know, you can still look when you
Speaker 3: look really really closely, you can find you can see
Speaker 3: the tool marks on the statues. The statue the one
Speaker 3: in the British Museum which came from the Ramaseum, it's
Speaker 3: got an error where they dug too deep in the
Speaker 3: in the mouth right the corner of the mouth, and
Speaker 3: so all of these and that is kind of like
Speaker 3: an indication of a machine or the workpiece of shifted somewhat,
Speaker 3: and you know there's an error and so they tried
Speaker 3: to machine out the air by by cutting the lips deeper, right,
Speaker 3: and so there's a shock right at the vermillion border
Speaker 3: where they cut the lips deeper. So they you know,
Speaker 3: I mean, they were using uh tran standard machining practices
Speaker 3: when they when they machined those faces, they were using
Speaker 3: a larger tool to cut the open areas, and then
Speaker 3: they switched tools to uh a more you know, finer
Speaker 3: point to cut the fine detailing in it.
Speaker 1: We're going to take a short commercial break to allow
Speaker 1: our sponsors to identify themselves, and will return shortly with
Speaker 1: my guest today, Kristen, discussing advanced Machining in Ancient Egypt.
Speaker 1: We'll rejoin you shortly speaking with Christun today. He is
Speaker 1: the author of Advanced Engineering in Ancient Egypt, and we're
Speaker 1: looking at a number of machined temples, pyramids, and statuary.
Speaker 1: Do you think that the use of microscopic lenses to
Speaker 1: look really deep into these cuts would determine the cutting tool?
Speaker 3: Uh, you mean, as far as whether they were used,
Speaker 3: what kind of media that they were using, like diamond
Speaker 3: or something of that nature.
Speaker 1: Yeah, or if you can tell if it's even laser cut,
Speaker 1: which you would be really a mind blower.
Speaker 3: I generally avoid lasers because I was, like, I worked
Speaker 3: with lasers for about thirteen years and they are very
Speaker 3: limited in the work that they can do. So and
Speaker 3: also they're not cheap to run. It's not a very
Speaker 3: cost effective way to remove material. Compare that to a
Speaker 3: regular machining or even vibratory machining. If you're using like
Speaker 3: a ultrasonic machining or something like that, yeah, that would
Speaker 3: be a little more efficient than using lasers. Lasers was
Speaker 3: the magical two that just was just looking for a
Speaker 3: place to happen. I read that in a trade magazine
Speaker 3: many years ago. I was fascinated with lasers though, I
Speaker 3: mean I just loved them, and I got involved with
Speaker 3: with them as a company in Indianapolis and run in
Speaker 3: a laser job shop for a while. But the it's
Speaker 3: a thermal process. So lasers is a thermal process, and
Speaker 3: you know, you you may ablated the material, but you
Speaker 3: can't really cut clean cleanly with it.
Speaker 1: Because it's too hot and you can't control the heat levels.
Speaker 3: Right, I mean, you can control the heat level, but
Speaker 3: the finishes that you get that you're not going to
Speaker 3: get the same finishes that you on the y, that
Speaker 3: you get that you see on the statues or in
Speaker 3: in these other artifacts. So I would just dismiss laser
Speaker 3: out of hand. I'd be like, no, no way. There
Speaker 3: was a guy who came in. He wanted to know
Speaker 3: if he was having trouble with his blades. He had
Speaker 3: a company that made English muffins, and he put raisins
Speaker 3: in the muffins, right, and so he was having a
Speaker 3: problem with cutting these muffins because the blade kept dragging
Speaker 3: on the on the raisins and he was tearing up
Speaker 3: the muffins. And so he brought in a box of muffins.
Speaker 3: Wanted to know if I could laser them. It was like,
Speaker 3: oh my god. I was like, I think that's the
Speaker 3: wrong application, O man, And he said, well, right, anyway,
Speaker 3: so I had to try it. And so basically I
Speaker 3: put it in the cabinet, set up the machine and
Speaker 3: let it run, and then opened up the cabinet and
Speaker 3: took out a toasted muffin.
Speaker 1: Jesus, that's funny. Kind of a weird use for that
Speaker 1: high tech machinery. So, in concluding on the cutting side,
Speaker 1: your your feeling is it was some either vibrating tool
Speaker 1: or high revolution blade of some kind that was cutting
Speaker 1: this granite.
Speaker 3: Well, I mean not necessarily high revolution. You know that
Speaker 3: there's basically the biggest thing to watch or principle that
Speaker 3: you have to be aware of in any kind of
Speaker 3: machining is heat, because heat will degrade your cutting tool.
Speaker 3: And basically it's a matter of the kind of action
Speaker 3: that you're empowering on the tool, whether it's rotary or reciprocal. Right,
Speaker 3: If it's a rotary, you don't want depending on the
Speaker 3: diameter that you are rotating, you don't want to have
Speaker 3: too high a revolution because you're going to burn up
Speaker 3: the tool. It was with Granted i'm talking with granite now,
Speaker 3: not limestone, So I mean there is you know, it's
Speaker 3: kind of like the Patrichor number seven, which is which
Speaker 3: had those spiral grooves around it. The feed rate was
Speaker 3: is five hundred times greater than a regular diamond diamond drill,
Speaker 3: at least it was in nineteen eighty four when I
Speaker 3: did my research on it. I mean, the improvement in tools,
Speaker 3: they may be doing it a lot faster now, are
Speaker 3: a lot greater now. But a lot of people have
Speaker 3: interpreted that to mean that the tool was spinning five
Speaker 3: hundred times fast, which is not what I meant. So, yeah,
Speaker 3: there's can be some confusion. Some of the confusion I
Speaker 3: take credit for others, you know, I people can be
Speaker 3: confused for all kinds of reasons, nothing to do with
Speaker 3: what I said. Oh did right? Gotcha? Gotcha?
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 1: Let's finish up with these I call them the Sakara
Speaker 1: uh vases, dishes plates. I actually was in the pyramid
Speaker 1: there at Sakara, and I I Muhammad introduced me to
Speaker 1: a local archaeologist and he sold me a part of
Speaker 1: a vas not as good as Mark Young or Bell's vases,
Speaker 1: but it was enough. It was enough to get a
Speaker 1: sense of just how they cut these things. Talk about
Speaker 1: the your son Alex and Mark Young's research on these
Speaker 1: stone bulls. Adam Young, Oh, Adam Young, excuse me, Adam Young.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, Alex was on my tour in twenty eighteen
Speaker 3: and Adam was on that tour, and so they met
Speaker 3: at that point, and Alex offered to do a love
Speaker 3: inspection on his vases. You know, he's discussing his vases,
Speaker 3: and of course the big the question has always been, oh, look,
Speaker 3: how precise those vases are? I wonder how precise they
Speaker 3: really are. Yeah, right, I mean myself, I go into
Speaker 3: you know, the number of times I've been to Egypt.
Speaker 3: I mean there have been times when going into the
Speaker 3: the Cairo Museum, you couldn't even take a photograph. You
Speaker 3: had little leavy camera outside, you know. And yeah, and
Speaker 3: so there's a lot there was certainly no chance for
Speaker 3: me to get one of those vases. And uh yeah,
Speaker 3: but anyway, so well, Alex, uh yeah, Adam came to Indianapolis.
Speaker 3: I was up there. It was at a company, a
Speaker 3: military contractor Alice was working on as a quality engineer,
Speaker 3: and they put one of these phases, I think it
Speaker 3: was the OG or the Collee OG, the original granite phase,
Speaker 3: put it upon a rotary table and inspected it. Were
Speaker 3: using conventional inspection equipment, you know, dial indicators.
Speaker 1: And.
Speaker 3: It kind of blew me away. I was. I was
Speaker 3: shocked by what I saw was within two thousand and
Speaker 3: seven inch of the being precise. And so that was
Speaker 3: the first indication that hey, I think we've got something here. Adam.
Speaker 3: Then with Alex, Adam actually went to capture three D
Speaker 3: I think in Connecticut and had them scan it three
Speaker 3: D scan it and I got the point cloud. He
Speaker 3: sent that to Alex. Alex and his friend Nick Sierra,
Speaker 3: they both work at Rolls Royce. Now, they took that
Speaker 3: data and created a STL file, which is a file
Speaker 3: that you can create C and C code with, so
Speaker 3: basically takes a whole bunch of points and then renders
Speaker 3: it down to a file that is that.
Speaker 1: The three D file that you can manipulate on your computer.
Speaker 3: You can basically apply a tool path to it so
Speaker 3: and model it. Yeah. So anyway, that's what they did,
Speaker 3: and they were sitting on it for quite a while,
Speaker 3: you know, not knowing what steps to take next. Yeah,
Speaker 3: it's kind of like, yeah, what do we do here now?
Speaker 3: And then Alex, you know, he was He's like, I
Speaker 3: think maybe Ben van Kirkwick would be a good guy
Speaker 3: to put this information out, And so he and Adam
Speaker 3: decided that they would do that and went over to
Speaker 3: Ben and Ben bean with it and and so that's
Speaker 3: how it got out into the public square.
Speaker 1: Yeah, talk a little bit about the last bit of
Speaker 1: data on this, because Kirkwook is now kind of considering
Speaker 1: them less less utility home use and possible function of
Speaker 1: a of a machine of some kind these these what
Speaker 1: we think are vases and plates and things. Because of
Speaker 1: the precision, they may be used as some form of
Speaker 1: application on technology, an engine or something. I don't know,
Speaker 1: but is that your feeling as well, or are you
Speaker 1: Do you feel that it's simply.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I'm I love exotic ideas and I
Speaker 3: love to speculate, right and certainly I've come up with
Speaker 3: a few myself. Uh, but they're just it's just speculation,
Speaker 3: and and then generally I try to try to follow
Speaker 3: them rules of OCAM's raiser, right like, so the the
Speaker 3: all else considered, the simplest solution is probably the correct one.
Speaker 3: So I you know, there's no way I don't think.
Speaker 3: Maybe eventually there will be, but I don't think there's
Speaker 3: any way to support that idea at this time or
Speaker 3: to give it more strength than the simple Well it
Speaker 3: was just a nice little item to put on your shelf,
Speaker 3: right yeah. Or it was something that we gave apprentices to,
Speaker 3: you know, before they graduated, because they had to do
Speaker 3: some fairly significant work. So that's pretty much yet, I mean,
Speaker 3: in terms of taking that research further, and that research
Speaker 3: is continuing, I mean, that's the good thing about it
Speaker 3: is that Adam and Matt continue to to work hard
Speaker 3: forwarding you know, their investors, pursuing their investigation further.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 3: I think Adam and a a an associate went into
Speaker 3: the Peach Museum and measured one of their vases. Oh yeah,
Speaker 3: they're still trying to make them by hand, even though
Speaker 3: they are. There's one group I think in Russia they
Speaker 3: are they try to make one by hand and they
Speaker 3: resorted to using a potter's wheel in order to achieve
Speaker 3: the achieved the concentricity and the aroundness, but I'm not
Speaker 3: sure as far as you know the accuracy of it. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I had been on the show a few months ago
Speaker 1: and one of the things he describes is the cut
Speaker 1: is so great that you can shine a light inside
Speaker 1: of it and see the light.
Speaker 3: One of those phases. Yeah, well, I think it's one
Speaker 3: that Matt Bell has that you can shine a light
Speaker 3: and you know that that was another aspect too. That
Speaker 3: whole research was that after Ben had promoted it on
Speaker 3: his website, then that's when Matt Bell got involved and
Speaker 3: started buying up all of these pre dynastic vases. Yeah,
Speaker 3: and then we did an inspection events at Danville Metal
Speaker 3: Stamping and so Adam came in with his vases, Matt
Speaker 3: Bell came in with his We set them up on
Speaker 3: the rotary table and just started measuring them. I was
Speaker 3: measuring the wall thickness of them. God, we were like,
Speaker 3: it was just like totally blown away by the precision
Speaker 3: of them. Imagine that using modern day tools, measuring the
Speaker 3: wall thickness and the wall thickness of this one wase
Speaker 3: I think it was the one the way you could
Speaker 3: actually see the light. Yeah, it was. I think that
Speaker 3: it was within like no more than two thousands of
Speaker 3: being a thickness all the way around it, And it
Speaker 3: was like I was just I was just floored. I
Speaker 3: was blown away by it. I mean it's like, yeah,
Speaker 3: this is this is really good work.
Speaker 1: And you got to wonder why would they had to
Speaker 1: why would they cut at that thin?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 1: And maybe this is where Ben gets his idea that
Speaker 1: these objects that we consider kitchen items are perhaps machine parts.
Speaker 3: So yeah, no, I don't know. I mean, you know,
Speaker 3: it's always good to stretch your imagination. Yeah, you never know, Yeah,
Speaker 3: mark something in somebody else that turns into something different. Yeah,
Speaker 3: I'd say, you know, you can't you can't you can't
Speaker 3: suppress human ingenuity and imagination.
Speaker 1: No, that's what's mix it interesting and fun. Hey, Chris,
Speaker 1: tell everybody where you're going to be in March. You're
Speaker 1: going to be part of a tour with my friend
Speaker 1: Muhammad Imbrahem will be there April twentieth, but you're gonna
Speaker 1: be there March sixth.
Speaker 2: What's the ooh, I think March fourth. Yeah, I think
Speaker 2: give us the in general.
Speaker 1: I know you don't have it in front of you,
Speaker 1: but what's the itinerary? You guys going to go look
Speaker 1: for anomalies or what's up?
Speaker 2: What are you going to do?
Speaker 3: Well? The first thing, of course, this will be the
Speaker 3: first time that the first tour I've done in a
Speaker 3: few years. I wasn't going to do any more tours,
Speaker 3: but I there is a couple of things that I
Speaker 3: I would like to do. I definitely want to uh
Speaker 3: be with Filipo BEYONDI and Armando and travel when they
Speaker 3: do their presentation and add my voice to them, which
Speaker 3: I also did up in Chicago and supported supported their
Speaker 3: their findings. I climbed off the fence on their side,
Speaker 3: if you will, right. So, yeah, but it's got the usual,
Speaker 3: I mean the usual tour private accesses. You know, the
Speaker 3: the Geezer plateau, Saicara Dash sure, but Aburu wash hopefully
Speaker 3: and then you know down to look so will go
Speaker 3: all the way down to obosite symbol I think in
Speaker 3: the tour. So it'll promises to be absolutely unbelievable, a
Speaker 3: wonderful time that people are I think, you know, Amando
Speaker 3: and Philippa are are just incredible people. Traver is just
Speaker 3: a wonderful guy too. So you know, I can see
Speaker 3: that this will be an amazing trip for anybody who
Speaker 3: wants to join.
Speaker 1: Fantastic All right, give us your website again, and then
Speaker 1: what you're up to latest. I don't think there's a
Speaker 1: book in the works, but you never know.
Speaker 3: I have to ask. Well, I guess you'll just have
Speaker 3: to be surprised. Oh website, and thank you for asking,
Speaker 3: is uh geezerpower dot com. That's g I Z A
Speaker 3: p o w e R gizer power dot com. And
Speaker 3: there's a lot of links in the articles section. There's
Speaker 3: some headline news on the front page. In the article section,
Speaker 3: there's pages on the machined artifacts that we discussed today.
Speaker 3: There's an article on the stone at Abaroash, the Ramsey statues.
Speaker 3: There's all kinds of photographs of those two, so I've
Speaker 3: had it, enjoy it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I should mention that Chris is fairly good at
Speaker 1: writing articles and he has a whole bunch of I'm
Speaker 1: going to post an article that where he responded to
Speaker 1: inquiries about his book Lost Technologies of the Ancient Egypt,
Speaker 1: So good place to see his articles. Chris is always
Speaker 1: a pleasure. Great to see you, and I appreciate.
Speaker 3: Thank you very much. Yeah, it looks like you're getting
Speaker 3: a little gray up top there. Yeah, yeah, but that's okay.
Speaker 3: At least you've got a.
Speaker 2: Lot of it left, all right, buddy, you take care.
Speaker 3: Yeah, take care. I now bye.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna show a number of images on the Facebook page.
Speaker 1: You can also go to Chris Dunn dot com and
Speaker 1: see his latest articles. And I'll post the article that
Speaker 1: he recently submitted his take on the t SARS synthetic
Speaker 1: aperture radar imagery of the Kufu and Caffrey Pyramids, So
Speaker 1: that's something to consider. Always good to have him on
Speaker 1: the program. Hey, we are gearing up for our seventh
Speaker 1: annual Grant Egyptian. It's going to be April twenty eighth
Speaker 1: through May tenth. It is focused on these megalists. We've
Speaker 1: been talking about the Ramseys statuary temples, including Hathor Karnak,
Speaker 1: but we're going to see some very old portions of
Speaker 1: Egypt that you can that you can visit, actually get
Speaker 1: out and touch the statues and the buildings and things.
Speaker 1: For the entire itinerary, go to Earth Ancients dot com,
Speaker 1: forward slash tours. We're making this tour very reasonably priced,
Speaker 1: and I always mentioned that Earth Ancients is probably the
Speaker 1: most reasonably priced tour that you can take to Egypt.
Speaker 1: Our tour is about half the price, fifty percent off
Speaker 1: the normal rate of about twelve thousand dollars. For all
Speaker 1: the details, all the information, you go to earth Ancients
Speaker 1: dot com, forward slash tours and register. We're about a
Speaker 1: third of the way to the full This tour typically
Speaker 1: sells out by December, So if you have any questions whatsoever,
Speaker 1: send me an email. Sent it to Earth Ancients the
Speaker 1: number four of the letter you at gmail dot com,
Speaker 1: and I'll get right back to you Earth Ancients Grand
Speaker 1: Egyptian Tour number seven. All right, that's it for this program.
Speaker 1: I want to thank my guest today Kristin wonderful lam
Speaker 1: on the program has always a team of Gail tour
Speaker 1: Mark Foster, Infela ParvE. You guys rock all right, take
Speaker 1: care of you well and we will talk to you
Speaker 1: next time.