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It allows me to basically put out an episode every

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Head on over to Freeman Beyond the Wall dot com,

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forward slash Support and do it there. Thank you. I

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want to welcome everyone back to the Pequanana Show. Paul

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fahrenheits back and we're going to continue the Spain series.

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How are you doing, Paul, I'm doing very well.

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Speaker 2: Pete. The Spain series where we rarely and occasionally talk about.

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Speaker 1: Spain, well, yeah, you know, it's uh when you're when

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when you have a world empire, it's uh, you know,

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there's other places you may want to talk about.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's true. But yeah, so today, as I made

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the joke about, we're going to be talking about the

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extremely unifying and uh, non controversial topic of the Protestant Reformation.

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That is, that is what we are going to be

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talking about today. And I am not so much interested in.

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Speaker 1: What is it.

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Speaker 2: I'm not so much interested in Number one, I'm not

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interested in giving you guys a play by play. This

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is not this is this. This is not really a

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historical series in the sense that we're going over the history.

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There are people who do that better. Rather, we are

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using world systems theory to try to analyze the decline

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and collapse of a world system, using the Christendom world

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system and particularly the Spanish higher as a vector of analysis.

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And the Protestant Reformation was broadly right, and we're going

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to get into it was it was. It was by

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no means a monolithic movement, but the Protestant Reformation broadly, right,

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is the terminal crisis, or it began the terminal crisis,

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or it was the reason of the terminal crisis that

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ended the Christendom world system. Because so one of the

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things that we've kind of realized as we've gone through

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this series and we've you know, discussed these certain things,

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mister Pete, is that the Christendom world system could only

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exist insofar as the Roman Church was the universal church

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in name or in fact, and the empire was the

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strongest entity and it was at the center of Europe. Right,

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Christendom was built on those two things. And those two

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things did not fail simultaneously. As a matter of fact,

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one the power of one outlived the power of the other,

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which is the empire. The empire lasted, or a politically

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relevant empire lasted longer than a I don't want to

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say a politically relevant papacy, but politically powerful papacy in

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the sense that the pope had the political authority that

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he previously did. But we've already talked about that and

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this this, you know, the Italian Wars really was kind

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of the the the last gasp of a of a

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politically strong papacy in the sense of it having a

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a a realm that it had influence over and using

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that as a vector of influencing wider European politics. We've

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already talked about that, and we've also already talked about

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the various crises in church history that began, you know,

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something as early as as as Gregory the Great, you know,

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and then and then going into the later Gregorian reforms,

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and then going all the way to the eve of

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the Reformation.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: So, one of the things before we even get started

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on this, one of the things that I want to

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emphasize one of the themes I want to emphasize of

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today's episodes, and I hope that the listener has been

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taking with them throughout the series. World systems do not

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break apart on a whim. They do not break apart

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on a whim. They are what are called complex adaptive systems.

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What's a complex adaptive system? A complex adaptive system? It

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is like a human body, right where it is an entity.

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It is an organic hole. It is an entity in

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and of itself. However, that entity has a very very

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large number of constituent parts, and those constituent parts all

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perform a certain task or certain tasks, and there are

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a variety of redundancies within that complex adaptive system. You know.

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For example, mister Pete, you know your body can take

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a certain amount of any kind of poison, any kind

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of a disease, any kind of virus, right, because there's redundancies.

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You won't instantly die, you know. Now, obviously too much

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of anything will kill you. But there is a sort

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of a realm of tolerance a certain amount, you know,

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as the seem to lead always says, damage is nonlinear,

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all right, So that's the thing. So a complex adaptive system,

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in a civilizational sense or in a world system sense,

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is a system that can deal with not only singular crises,

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but multiple crises at once across a large area. You

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know that. I think one of the first examples we

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have of a complex adaptive world system was that of

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the Bronze Age, the pre Bronze Age collapse, Bronze Age,

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you know, the Bronze Age Mediterranean, which was centered around Egypt,

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which played a similar role as the United States does

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now as the primary food exporter. You know, the world

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is centered around the primary food exporder. That wasn't so

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much the case, I haven't deep dived into the economics.

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We're going to have. We're going to do a whole

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episode on the economics of this era too. Particularly, we're

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not there yet. But a complex adaptive system, and like

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the one, you know, ancient Egypt. I'm not going to

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go too much into detail, but ancient Egypt was able

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to deal with a variety of crises at once. The

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problem was and why the Bronze Age collapse occurred was

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because too many crises hit Egypt at once. The way

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you owe overwhelm a complex adaptive system is to throw

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everything in the kitchen sink at it fast, too fast,

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too fast for it to react to everything at once.

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Speaker 1: Similar to what sort of are we sort of seeing

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that right now?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I was about to say, similar to what our

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current executive is doing right you know, because in many ways,

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the quote unquote deep state or the you know, government bureaucracy,

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whatever name you want to give it is a complex

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adaptive system. And in a lot of instances it isn't

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even conscious. That's the thing. Like like a body, an organism,

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some parts of it can be more conscious of the

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whole than others, you know. But I remember back to

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the to the Yaki series. We did Pete, which really

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is an inspiration for this series. Yaki talks a lot

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about what I'm talking about with Spain and Ultramontanism and

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things like that in Imperium, and you know, Yaki understands this.

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The culture bearing stratum of any high culture is the

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is more conscious of the whole than say, you know,

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a dry wall and paint installer. You know, and you

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know there in any normally functioning society there would be

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more dry wall and drywall installers and painters than members

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of the culture bearing stratum. Unfortunately, because we're we live

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in the age of total politics, everyone is kind of

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sort of partially at least involved in culture. And that's

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good in some ways and it's bad in other ways.

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That's why culture is so you know, cancerous right now,

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is because everyone's involved in it. Culture in a in

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a coherent functioning society. Culture is the output of a

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of a very small group. But you know, you know

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all of this, we all know all of this. So

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to kind of bring this back world systems do not

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collapse on a dime, do not collapse on a whim.

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We've already talked about, We've already done an episode, mister

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Pete talking about the various crises of authority within the Church.

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I think we've talked about the various crisis of authority

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within the empire. And as Yaki says, Christendom, medieval Christendom

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or this Christendom world system, and I'm not quite using

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the Yaki Spanglarian model here, but it's helpful, was based

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around the two poles of the pope and the emperor.

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That is, medieval Christianity pretty much is summed up in

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the pope as the spiritual center and the emperor as

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the political center that enforces his will. And as we've

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already demonstrated, as those two entities come into conflict and

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one tries to absorb the other, and talked about the

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gels and the Gibilians and all that, this starts causing

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cracks in the legitimacy of the system. You know, legitimacy.

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Legitimacy is one of those concepts that academics like to

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talk about a lot today. It's one of those things

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where like just about everyone kind of knows it when

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they see it, you know. Legitimacy has a variety of sources,

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but the legitimacy of a system is the buy in

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that any given component of that system has in the

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raisondetra of that system, you know, and as we all know,

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the purpose of a system is what it does. So

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that said, all right, the Protestant Reformation did not come

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out of nowhere. We talked about earlier heresies, We've talked

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about earlier movements, earlier attempts to reform that not all

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of them came from outside of the church. A great

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many throughout history, a great many theologians, priests, cardinals, bishops

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of all sorts have critique to the Catholic Church, the

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Roman Church from within it, from a desire to reform it,

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from a desire to bring it closer to the image

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of Jesus Christ, that is, and that's you know, undeniable.

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And this continued even during the Protestant Reformation. So that's

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something I want everyone to keep in mind as we're

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going into this, and we're not I'm not going to

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talk about theology. This is not a theology episode. I'm

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not here to let you know. You all know I'm

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a Protestant, Pizza Catholic. This is how this goes. I'm

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not here to relitigate the Protestant Reformation. I'm not here

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to say who's right and who's wrong. I'm not here

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to debate soteriology or Christology or or whatever other stuff.

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You can go to Stone Choir if you want to

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hear stuff like that, all right, or equivalent Catholic podcast

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pines with as I guess, I'm not going to insult Catholics,

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but but that's something I want everyone to keep in mind.

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So now that we're on that, I just want to,

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you know, remind the listeners there were prior to the

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Protestant Reformation, right which, the Protestant Reformation, I think just

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about everyone agrees it started in about fifteen seventeen when

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Luther nailed his ninety five Theiss to the door of

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the church in Wittenberg. Okay, that's kind of what began it.

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You know, the Protestant Reformation cannot be separated from the

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figure of Martin Luther. Right now, Martin Luther was far

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from the only Reformer, far from the only theologian of

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his time talking about these ideas, but he was the

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one who took the step. So before him, before Luther,

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there were other attempts at at at you know, either

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separatism from And here's the other thing too, Like I

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think when you say the Reformation, that kinda that doesn't

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that it's too simple of a word. Because the Lutherans

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were separated from the fact that they were sort of

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separatists from the Roman Church. They wanted to split off,

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they wanted to create a new church. And then later

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movements like Calvin and Geneva and the Calvinists wanted to

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do something similar, and the Radical Reformation, the Mennonites, Diana, Baptists,

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et cetera, wanted to go even further right. But they

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all all of the Protestants. What what what makes a Protestant?

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Right broadly, let's define that first. What makes a Protestant,

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as we define the term a Protestant, is someone who

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desired to separate from the Church of Rome for any

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for whatever reason, for theological reasons, for person, no reasons

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for you know. That is that is what makes a Protestant. Now,

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I mean, if you go with that definition, then you're like, oh,

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well the Eastern Orthodox are Protestant. Okay, Well that's different,

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different story, all right, So proto Protestant movements. Earlier Protestant

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movements include h. John Wickliffe and the Baldensians. Those did

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not go very far because you know, Vicas Wickliffe translation was,

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you know, easily stamped out because of one big old

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gorilla in the room thing I haven't talked about yet,

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which I'm going to get to. Wickliffe inspired Jan huss

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who was able to inspire a much larger local reformation

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with the Hussites in Bohemia that would continue until the

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Battle of White Mountain, where the Bohemians were more or

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less brought back into the fold of the Catholic Church there,

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you know, and you know, you can go even further

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back to the Cafars, into the Lallards and other various

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pissant reform movements that didn't really go anywhere. Wickliffe and

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huss are important though, because they're the ones who are

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too early, And as a mutual friend of ours says Pete,

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being too early is the same as being wrong. So

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why was Luther different? Why was Luther different? You know,

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I'm not going to go everyone knows, you know, Oh, Luther,

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he was the you know, Dominican friar Ut was trained

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to be a lawyer. He he flipped over to the

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Church out of genuine religious faith. By all appearance of

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genuine religious faith. Didn't want to be a lawyer, wanted

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to enter the church, enter the church. I think he

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was like the Vicar of Saxony or something like that.

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He was. He was rather relatively high up, or at

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least he was getting relatively high up. He had a

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pretty good church career, and he was going places. And

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you know then, you know, everyone knows his famous trip

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to Rome and you know, the one moment and I'm

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more than willing to admit I'm not sure if this

250
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was this was a real thing. A lot of these

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in history, you find a lot of these stories are

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very apocryphal, kind of made up after the fact. It's like,

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you know, the one quote you associate with that historical figure,

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well he never actually said that quote. But you know,

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Luther goes to Rome and you know, sees the Italian

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priests kind of making a mockery of the Lord's supper,

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you know, from bread you were into bread, you will

258
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return or something like that. And that may have been apocryphal,

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but you know, almost certainly Luther was moved to do

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what he did by some reason. And I can't discount

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genuine belief, rightly or wrongly.

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Speaker 1: On his part.

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Speaker 2: Now, there were a variety of things that were happening

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in Europe, so kind of stepping away from Luther, not

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so much the man.

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Speaker 1: Why was his.

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Speaker 2: Movement different? Well, as they say, it takes a perfect storm,

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Europe at the time was changing. If there's one word

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you can use to describe it, it was changing. One

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of the big gorillas in the room that we haven't

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so much gone into was the Black Death's effect on

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Europe was revolutionary because what the Black Death did was

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it functionally reduced the population density by orders of magnitude

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that hasn't been seen since. And because it reduced the

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population density right much like we're we have now, there

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was a sort of competency crisis in Europe. There weren't

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enough bodies to do the work that needed to be done,

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and so systems started getting implemented. People started, you know,

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this is something people talk about a history class. People

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started being afforded a little bit more liberty because work needed,

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more work needed to be done. And some of this

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is practical. You can't exactly tie peasants down to the

283
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land when you know there's only three peasants in on

284
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your land and there's more farming that needs to be done.

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This is obviously a freaking weird example, blown out of

286
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proportion example, but there's more farming that needs to be

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done than peasants to do the farming in some places.

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So this also started, you know, the collapse of Scholasticism

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as an intellectual movement. You know, William of Oakham's skepticism,

290
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the beginnings of you could even say proto rationalist thought

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goes all the way back to this period. But besides

292
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all that that's happening in Europe, you have the aforementioned

293
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crises of within the papacy we've talked about. You have

294
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the Western Schism, the Babylonian captivity in France of the

295
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Avignon papacy. You have, you know, going jumping forward a

296
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little bit, the Italian Wars, jumping back a little bit,

297
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you have the rise of the Ottoman Turks and the

298
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seeming inability for that's a big thing. We haven't talked

299
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about the Turks a lot, but the Turks are kind

300
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of the you know, one of the looming swords of

301
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damicles over Europe at this time, particularly over the emperor

302
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at this time, because the emperor is the gateway between

303
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the Balkans and the rest of Europe, and the Turks

304
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are were making their way through the Balkans relatively quickly,

305
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but the Western Christian military forces proved unable to keep

306
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the Turks out of Europe for a extended period of time. Yes,

307
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you had moments, you know, Scanderbag, Matias Corvinas in Hungary.

308
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You had other you know, the most famous Vlad Tepes

309
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in Transylvania. You had little moments where the Turks were checked,

310
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but overall their advance was contiguous. And this caused a

311
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lot of you know, many people to think, Oh, well,

312
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God isn't with us. Why isn't God giving us victory

313
00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:32,559
over the Heathens. Why isn't God giving us victory over

314
00:21:32,599 --> 00:21:34,640
the Muslims. You know, he gave us victory over the

315
00:21:35,519 --> 00:21:40,200
Muslims five hundred years ago during the Crusades. Why not. Now,

316
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In addition, you had contact with foreigners. The Portuguese and

317
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the Spanish were in the Italians before them were making

318
00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:56,880
all of these expeditions throughout the world. They were coming

319
00:21:56,920 --> 00:21:59,519
into contact with lots of you know, a lot of

320
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pissant primitive tribes. But you know, for the Portuguese, the Chinese,

321
00:22:04,839 --> 00:22:11,200
and the Indians, which started bringing knowledge of Eastern traditions

322
00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:15,799
faith traditions into the West, Hinduism and Buddhism or whatever.

323
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You know, Hinduism was invented by the British in the

324
00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:26,119
nineteenth century, whatever Indian glop that they found in the subcontinent, Taoism,

325
00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:31,839
various Chinese schools, knowledge of those started entering into Europe

326
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and the you know, contact with the Muslims, the aforementioned Turks.

327
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There were also economic concerns. The Turks had shut off

328
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spices from the rest of Europe. Europe was undergoing a

329
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gold shortage. Europe was you know, finding that its mass

330
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peasant based agrarian economy wasn't meeting the challenges of the

331
00:22:56,839 --> 00:23:04,000
fifteenth and sixteenth centuries and all of you know, all

332
00:23:04,079 --> 00:23:06,960
of that. But there's you know, I'm kind of been

333
00:23:07,039 --> 00:23:10,480
dancing around it. There's there's one big thing I haven't mentioned,

334
00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:12,799
and I haven't talked about that. You know, you can't

335
00:23:12,839 --> 00:23:15,599
really talk about the Protestant Reformation without talking about this thing.

336
00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:18,440
You probably know what that one big thing is. What

337
00:23:18,759 --> 00:23:25,480
What have I not mentioned? It's a technological ad helment.

338
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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, oh, the printing press.

339
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Speaker 2: There you go, you know, if if if I had

340
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a one hundred dollars debt took place and I couldn't

341
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place it on a man, And I firmly believe that,

342
00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:43,640
you know, humans are the center of all history. Machines

343
00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:46,759
just kind of follow from it. But machines make possible

344
00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:49,680
things that are not possible prior to their invention. That's

345
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why they're so important. So why technology is so important.

346
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It makes possible things that are not possible or were

347
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not possible before. So why did Luther and his movement succeed? Well,

348
00:24:02,279 --> 00:24:04,200
if I had to place one hundred dollars on any

349
00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:07,799
one thing, I probably placed it on the printing press,

350
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because printing press, for anyone who knows what it was,

351
00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:14,680
and we're going to do a whole episode on that,

352
00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:21,519
you know, talking about that and dissonance. In this era, generally,

353
00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:28,240
the printing press made it possible for the mass proliferation

354
00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:35,680
of whatever you can think of. The people of that

355
00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:39,640
time largely used it for the one thing that they

356
00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:42,079
saw is more important than anything else, which was the

357
00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:46,039
faith of Christ and how the faith of Christ was

358
00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:51,880
manifested on earth ecclesiastically. This was a very religious age,

359
00:24:52,839 --> 00:24:55,839
you know, because people took this technology, and they immediately

360
00:24:56,000 --> 00:25:00,319
used it to have these various theological disputes. But there

361
00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:06,079
were also pamphlets would cut memes, you know, pamphlet substacks.

362
00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:08,440
There were there there was a sort of proto republic

363
00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:12,240
of letters that was happening amongst the clergy, amongst relatively

364
00:25:12,279 --> 00:25:16,400
intellectual aristocrats, amongst burghers. You know, the rising, the rising

365
00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:18,839
of the merchant class, the middle class in this time

366
00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:27,759
also coincides with this. You know, all of this, everything

367
00:25:27,799 --> 00:25:31,359
that I've just outlined, you know, the weak in legitimacy,

368
00:25:31,559 --> 00:25:34,559
the military defeat against the Turks, contact with foreigners, and

369
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:38,200
you know, changing economic colonization is bringing in all kinds

370
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:42,039
of commodities to Europe too. There's a shake up in

371
00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:47,119
political systems. There's there's and then you you, all of

372
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:48,720
these people are having all these ideas and then all

373
00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:50,599
of a sudden you drop this bomb on them that

374
00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:56,839
now allows them to spread these ideas faster than historically

375
00:25:57,599 --> 00:25:59,200
authorities have been able to keep up with it.

376
00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:01,920
Speaker 1: All right, So.

377
00:26:04,039 --> 00:26:09,119
Speaker 2: That is the that's the big thing. That's the one

378
00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:11,759
hundred dollars bet, the eight hundred pound gorilla in the room.

379
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:20,240
It's the printing press. Now that said I was doing

380
00:26:20,279 --> 00:26:22,960
some reading before this episode, and I read something that

381
00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:28,240
a recent theory has been positive given how Protestantism was

382
00:26:28,599 --> 00:26:31,960
spread the fastest and remains the strongest in Germany in

383
00:26:32,039 --> 00:26:38,079
the places that Luther had social contacts, and visited that

384
00:26:40,319 --> 00:26:43,359
it was the social network Luther had that spread Protestantism

385
00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:46,119
faster than the printing press did, which I think is

386
00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:48,039
an interesting theory. But that's all. I'm gonna leave it

387
00:26:48,039 --> 00:26:49,680
at I'm going to put it out there because you know,

388
00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:52,319
mister Pete, we talk a lot about the importance of

389
00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:57,079
social networks and of network theory and how groups of

390
00:26:57,279 --> 00:27:01,720
organized minorities shape history, and I think the same could

391
00:27:01,759 --> 00:27:05,559
be said to be true of the Protestant Reformation, because numerically,

392
00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:09,720
Catholics always I think they still they've always outnumbered Protestants.

393
00:27:09,759 --> 00:27:12,720
There have always been more Catholics on Earth than Protestants

394
00:27:12,759 --> 00:27:20,359
since the Protestant Reformation, especially in the beginning. And yet,

395
00:27:21,559 --> 00:27:24,160
you know, remembering our elite theory, this group of organized

396
00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:31,279
elites was able to not only have and create ecclesiastical

397
00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:34,400
change and theological change, but to later affect political change

398
00:27:35,559 --> 00:27:36,039
for good.

399
00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:36,359
Speaker 1: Or for ill.

400
00:27:37,559 --> 00:27:42,440
Speaker 2: So in a large part that's why Luther's Reformation succeeded

401
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:46,519
where everyone before him did not catch on to the

402
00:27:46,599 --> 00:27:50,599
same level. Yeah, you know, huss it caught onto the

403
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:52,839
borders of Bohemia, but you know, it was kind of

404
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:56,480
a weird quirk of the Bohemians, and not every Bohemian

405
00:27:56,599 --> 00:28:00,799
was a Hussite. Many of them remained Catholic, and the

406
00:28:00,839 --> 00:28:04,640
Hussites also later largely converted to Lutheranism and some of

407
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:12,880
them to Calvinism. So all that said, all that said,

408
00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:21,960
complex adaptive systems, the Christendom world system I don't want.

409
00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:26,519
It didn't it didn't have more than it could take

410
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:30,039
because it didn't immediately fail. Here's the thing, right, you

411
00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:32,759
know how we talk a lot about in public school education,

412
00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:35,920
people are giving lots of gaps in their historical education,

413
00:28:36,319 --> 00:28:38,440
you know, and part of that is just you know,

414
00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:42,279
in any time constraints standard standardized education, you can't teach

415
00:28:42,359 --> 00:28:46,920
people in continuity. You know, there's certain high level moments

416
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:49,240
and moments that you don't really have to cover because

417
00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:52,039
they're not as important. Now all those moments, what moments

418
00:28:52,079 --> 00:28:56,119
are picks serve an ideological agenda. But regardless, you know,

419
00:28:56,519 --> 00:28:58,279
like you know, mister Pete in American history. You have

420
00:28:59,079 --> 00:29:02,079
you know, the Civil War and the Industrial Revolution, and

421
00:29:02,079 --> 00:29:04,640
then all of a sudden World War One, right, and

422
00:29:04,799 --> 00:29:07,279
then oh but that's not important, and great depression of

423
00:29:07,319 --> 00:29:14,759
World War two, and very little like reconstruction is mentioned,

424
00:29:14,799 --> 00:29:18,079
but how it's ended is not mentioned. And then the

425
00:29:18,759 --> 00:29:22,359
period between reconstruction and World War One is not really

426
00:29:22,519 --> 00:29:24,240
talked about all that much. And then the night the

427
00:29:24,319 --> 00:29:27,480
Inner War years prior to FDR really talked about all

428
00:29:27,519 --> 00:29:32,200
that much. And you know, it's the same thing with

429
00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:36,759
the Protestant Reformation, right, and most people's minds it's like, oh,

430
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:41,559
you know, Martin Luther has his ninety five pieces and

431
00:29:41,599 --> 00:29:45,359
then five minutes later, the Thirty Years War happens. It's

432
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:51,680
not this is not quite it. There was. There was

433
00:29:51,759 --> 00:29:55,160
about one hundred and you know there was about one

434
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:58,839
hundred years. Yeah, because the Thirty Years War began in

435
00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:03,759
sixteen eighteen. There was about one hundred years between Luther

436
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:08,920
nailing his thesis and the Thirty Years War starting. To

437
00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:11,680
give you an idea one hundred years ago today, the

438
00:30:11,799 --> 00:30:18,920
president was I think Calvin Coolidge. Yeah, I think it

439
00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:22,279
was Calvin Coolidge who was president. Either that A Warren

440
00:30:22,359 --> 00:30:27,559
Harding and you know, we had just gotten over World

441
00:30:27,599 --> 00:30:31,160
War One. A lot has happened since then, right, So

442
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:39,559
the Protestant Reformation was a let's just say, war between

443
00:30:39,839 --> 00:30:46,480
Protestants and Catholics was not inevitable. It was certainly chosen,

444
00:30:47,559 --> 00:30:50,799
but it was not inevitable. And various things happened in between.

445
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:53,279
And I'm not going to give everyone a whole retrospective,

446
00:30:53,319 --> 00:30:54,680
and we're not even going to talk about the Thirty

447
00:30:54,759 --> 00:30:56,240
Years War on this episode. That's going to be its

448
00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:59,079
own episode. This is more so an episode on the

449
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:07,720
one hundred years between Luther nailing his thesis and I

450
00:31:07,759 --> 00:31:09,240
guess the beginning of the third But we're not probably

451
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:14,400
not even gonna get that far, So so let me

452
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:19,599
get into the next thing. And what was the next thing? Shoot,

453
00:31:20,319 --> 00:31:21,839
I'm looking at my notes here. I'm trying to I'm

454
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:23,440
trying to. I'm trying to be organized.

455
00:31:27,119 --> 00:31:30,799
Speaker 1: You gotta have notes for an episode like this. Yeah.

456
00:31:30,839 --> 00:31:32,880
Speaker 2: That that that's the thing, right is. It's like, you know,

457
00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:37,319
I hope the listeners are aware as I am that

458
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:39,799
this is a absolute minefield.

459
00:31:41,759 --> 00:31:47,559
Speaker 1: Yeah, So what is it? Uh?

460
00:31:48,319 --> 00:31:49,960
Speaker 2: Where am I trying to pick? I guess, I'll I guess,

461
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:52,039
I'll go into the second phase of the Reformation, right,

462
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:55,599
and talk about the sort of splits that occurred within

463
00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:58,240
the Reformation, because I'll I understand, mister Pete, a lot

464
00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:00,759
of your listeners are Catholics, and a lot of a

465
00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:05,319
lot of ignorance exists, and rightfully so about Protestants and

466
00:32:05,359 --> 00:32:09,319
Protestant movements, mostly because you know, the mean, oh there's

467
00:32:09,359 --> 00:32:11,920
ten thousand little micro denominations of Protestants. Why do I

468
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:14,400
even care? And you know, to certain respect, it is

469
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:18,359
true Protestants do have a tendency to schism more than

470
00:32:19,319 --> 00:32:25,200
more than more than other let's just say, niceen christian sex.

471
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:31,480
But there's reasons for it. So there were two broad

472
00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:38,680
strains of Protestant Christianity. You started with the Lutherans. You

473
00:32:38,759 --> 00:32:41,480
initially had the Lutherans, right, but they didn't even call

474
00:32:41,519 --> 00:32:44,400
themselves Lutherans at first. They called themselves Evangelicals. They were

475
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:50,640
largely they were largely followers of Luther, but they weren't

476
00:32:50,839 --> 00:32:53,160
only followers of Luther, and Luther wasn't even the only

477
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:55,880
reformer among them. A lot of people know of Malanthan

478
00:32:56,039 --> 00:33:00,960
who was his kind of secondhand man, and there were

479
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:04,000
other largely you know, there are other fingers with him.

480
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:07,519
And then later on and this was like almost a

481
00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:11,839
generation of difference because Calvin was was almost a whole

482
00:33:12,279 --> 00:33:15,599
I think like thirty years after Luther maybe a little

483
00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:20,440
bit more that began the Calvinist or the Reform tradition,

484
00:33:24,279 --> 00:33:29,160
and they were and then obviously, you know, you have

485
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:32,559
the Radical Reformation, the end of Baptists. The Baptists kind

486
00:33:32,599 --> 00:33:34,559
of come out of this area. And then you have

487
00:33:34,599 --> 00:33:39,519
the Anglican Reformation in England, which you know, people, you know,

488
00:33:39,599 --> 00:33:41,799
Henry the Eighth is one of the most misunderstood historical

489
00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:46,079
figures of all time. But that's kind of beyond the scope.

490
00:33:46,119 --> 00:33:50,680
But the Anglican Reformation was not, you know, not a

491
00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:52,200
lot of people say it's like, oh, it's the church.

492
00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:54,559
Henry the eight started when he wanted a divorce. No,

493
00:33:54,799 --> 00:33:58,960
there was, there was, there was theological thinking behind it

494
00:34:00,039 --> 00:34:03,720
amongst the English, and the English were unique in Catholic

495
00:34:03,799 --> 00:34:09,239
Europe in that the Bible had existed in some you know,

496
00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:12,920
what they call the Vulgate in some form of English

497
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:16,239
since really since Augustine of Canterbury was sent there in

498
00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:20,400
the fifth century. So the English are special, as they

499
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:28,000
always are. They're they're different, but the Protestants were not

500
00:34:28,039 --> 00:34:33,840
a monolith. Even in the beginning. You had luther and

501
00:34:34,039 --> 00:34:37,760
one of the forgotten major Reformers, Holdrich Zvingli, who was

502
00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:42,440
in Zurich, Zurich, which is also in Switzerland, alongside Geneva.

503
00:34:43,199 --> 00:34:45,159
It's funny how these these things kind of break down

504
00:34:45,199 --> 00:34:48,559
on ethnic lines, because the you know, calvin in Geneva

505
00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:51,599
was in the you know, the French part of Switzerland

506
00:34:51,679 --> 00:34:56,960
and they were mostly Reformed. And Zvingli was in Zurich,

507
00:34:57,000 --> 00:34:59,280
which is in the mostly German part of Switzerland, and

508
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:03,760
they were mostly Lutheran. And it doesn't entirely break down

509
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:07,119
on ethnic lines. A lot of Germans later on convert

510
00:35:07,199 --> 00:35:14,159
to uh Calvinism, the Platinate most notably and also interestingly Prussia.

511
00:35:15,519 --> 00:35:22,039
But but but but but but basically it's it, I

512
00:35:22,079 --> 00:35:24,840
don't want to say it entirely breaks down on ethnic lines,

513
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:27,760
but in a lot of respects it does. Even in

514
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:32,719
even in Italy and in Spain. You know, there were

515
00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:34,880
you know, there weren't a lot of Protestants in Italy

516
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:38,639
and Spain, and the Inquisition was well enough established and

517
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:42,280
experienced enough at what it did that it was able

518
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:47,119
to pretty effectively stamp out any because there were attempts

519
00:35:47,159 --> 00:35:50,639
in Spain. You know, there were Spanish translations of the

520
00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:56,280
Bible made and that mostly became popular in the Basque country, largely,

521
00:35:56,280 --> 00:36:01,320
you know, through the Huguenot influence in France. And the

522
00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:04,880
Huguenots were all Calvinists. They were not Lutherans. And that's

523
00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:08,760
another thing, you know, France. France had its whole own

524
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:12,719
internal struggle over this. You know, a very large minority

525
00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:19,559
of the population converted to you know, the Calvinism is

526
00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:23,360
they don't really they don't like that word anymore. They

527
00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:29,639
prefer the word reformed now. But the Huguenots were largely Calvinistic,

528
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:31,280
and they were in the south of France and in

529
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:35,000
other places, and that mostly entered into Spain through the

530
00:36:35,039 --> 00:36:38,960
Basque country, but it was mostly minor. And you know,

531
00:36:39,039 --> 00:36:42,880
most of the Spanish Protestants were intellectuals who were either

532
00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:48,920
either killed or deported. Same thing in Italy. Italy even

533
00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:55,400
fewer people caught on. But and that's not I mean,

534
00:36:55,639 --> 00:36:57,960
the Protestants killed all kinds of Catholics. I'm not saying,

535
00:36:58,079 --> 00:37:00,599
you know, the Catholics were unique and killing outstance. Now,

536
00:37:00,599 --> 00:37:02,920
they were they were both executing each other. And this

537
00:37:03,079 --> 00:37:05,119
is the thing, this is the seriousness of it, right,

538
00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:10,519
you know, these these people legitimately believed that if you

539
00:37:10,599 --> 00:37:14,000
were in a state of mortal sin, and it was

540
00:37:14,039 --> 00:37:16,440
better to kill you because it would have kept you

541
00:37:16,559 --> 00:37:18,760
from sinning even further, it would have kept you from

542
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:23,440
getting from even worsening your situation. And both sides believe

543
00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:28,760
this about the others, at least initially. But that's the

544
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:33,599
that's the most I'll get into. That point is this

545
00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:37,840
was a multi generational thing, and this was a certainly

546
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:40,719
not a monolithic thing. And I'll tell you why this

547
00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:43,320
Can kind of Vingly was sort of a proto reformer.

548
00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:49,920
He was he was or proto Calvinist. Rather, he was closer.

549
00:37:50,599 --> 00:37:53,519
He agreed with Luther on you know that they had

550
00:37:53,599 --> 00:37:56,000
this this, you know, all these articles of faith that

551
00:37:56,079 --> 00:38:05,039
they established, and Zvingly agreed with Luther on everything except

552
00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:08,360
for the place of the Lord's supper. Luther retained the

553
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:13,840
belief of the Catholic Church that transubstantiation occurred when the

554
00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:17,840
Lord's Supper was done. Zvingly did not. Zingly was, you know,

555
00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:19,480
That's what made him closer to a Can. And as

556
00:38:19,519 --> 00:38:23,079
Vingly believed that the Lord's Supper wasn't I don't even

557
00:38:23,079 --> 00:38:26,280
necessarily that it wasn't a sacrament, but that that transubstantiation

558
00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:31,639
didn't occur. And this leads into this very famous discussion

559
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:36,239
conference and falling out between the two where Luther carves

560
00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:39,519
on a table with a knife in the middle of

561
00:38:39,599 --> 00:38:43,519
the debate is means is uh, you know, referring to

562
00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:45,920
when Christ says, this is my body which is given

563
00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:51,199
to you in defense of transubstantiation. And every time Zinglyi

564
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:54,079
or someone else would make a point would just point

565
00:38:54,119 --> 00:38:57,159
to what he carved on the table, and this of

566
00:38:57,239 --> 00:39:00,679
course caused this huge breakdown between the vingly In Reformers

567
00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:06,079
and Luther and what would later start to be called

568
00:39:06,079 --> 00:39:13,000
the Lutheran Reformers. So in addition, Zingi was a sort

569
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:17,840
of proto Swiss nationalist. This is something that we we've

570
00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:20,280
talked about a little bit, but I've and I've kind

571
00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:23,320
of purported this line before, at least I've played with

572
00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:26,360
it how nations were fictions of the nineteenth century. But

573
00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:30,159
I don't I'm not so sure about that anymore. I'm

574
00:39:30,199 --> 00:39:33,360
not so sure that's the case, because you see precedent

575
00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:41,280
earlier in this period particularly, and you actually, I think

576
00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:43,559
you start to see the sort of the birth, the

577
00:39:43,679 --> 00:39:49,400
beginnings of a national self conception that goes beyond just

578
00:39:49,519 --> 00:39:51,840
a you know of you know, your county, your town

579
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:55,679
that's around you. I believe, you know, I believe in

580
00:39:56,119 --> 00:39:58,679
in I don't so much believe in cyclical history anymore.

581
00:39:58,679 --> 00:40:01,320
I believe in you know, I guess the best shape

582
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:03,920
is like a sort of spiral history. You know, there

583
00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:05,800
is a beginning and an end of history. There is

584
00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:10,840
a line, but it's it goes and increase, it grows

585
00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:14,639
an incomplexity with each turn of the wheel, as it were.

586
00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:18,039
And I believe that a nation is a you know,

587
00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:21,119
a nineteenth century nation state is a more sophisticated in

588
00:40:21,199 --> 00:40:23,599
some ways simpler, but in some ways a more sophisticated

589
00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:30,920
entity than a confederation of feudal fiefdoms associated by you know,

590
00:40:31,159 --> 00:40:37,079
all different kinds of law. But Vingli was a proto

591
00:40:37,159 --> 00:40:40,920
Swiss nationalist, and he believed in the concept of a

592
00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:46,280
Switzerland separate from the Empire. But the problem is is

593
00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:49,320
that within Switzerland, Switzerland was also a sort of microcosm

594
00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:51,920
of the Reformation, because you had three big parts of Switzerland.

595
00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:54,079
You know, as a matter of fact, all three major

596
00:40:56,079 --> 00:40:59,079
parties of the of the era were represented in Switzerland.

597
00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:03,480
Threans were largely out of Zurich, or the Lutheran aligned

598
00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:07,199
or the Lutheran friendly Zingli, the Reformed were in Geneva,

599
00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:11,079
and the Catholics were largely in the in the south

600
00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:14,559
of Switzerland. You know, the Swiss Guard, the very famous

601
00:41:14,559 --> 00:41:16,679
Swiss Guard, which to this day are drawn from Swiss

602
00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:20,480
Catholic men. The Swiss had a long Catholic tradition alongside

603
00:41:20,519 --> 00:41:24,679
these other things. And so there were wars between the cantons.

604
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:28,480
The cantons went to war with each other, and Zingli

605
00:41:28,599 --> 00:41:33,199
himself would die in battle against the canton or in

606
00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:35,239
the war against the cantons. You know, he was a

607
00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:39,840
chaplain with his you know, he believe with his uh

608
00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:44,280
I forget what with the forces from Zurich. He was

609
00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:46,400
a chaplain, and he died in battle. And after he

610
00:41:46,519 --> 00:41:48,800
died and Luther heard of it, Luther hated Zvingli. After

611
00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:52,280
this that falling out, Luther very snidely wrote, you know,

612
00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:54,639
he who lives by the sword dies by the sword.

613
00:41:56,079 --> 00:41:58,719
So there was very little love lost between some of

614
00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:06,400
these parties. Reformers. And this is exacerbated by Pete question

615
00:42:06,559 --> 00:42:11,440
for you, in question for the audience, what created peace

616
00:42:11,639 --> 00:42:15,880
in the empire and acceptance within the empire of a

617
00:42:16,079 --> 00:42:17,119
non Catholic faith?

618
00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:22,599
Speaker 1: What did it? What created peace in a non non

619
00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:23,840
Catholic what?

620
00:42:24,079 --> 00:42:28,519
Speaker 2: What? What? What treaty? What agreement allowed for members of

621
00:42:28,599 --> 00:42:32,199
the empire to not be Catholic, to be to something else.

622
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:35,239
Speaker 1: Remember, I'm sorry, a lot of people.

623
00:42:35,079 --> 00:42:36,360
Speaker 2: Think it's the Treaty of It was a kind of

624
00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:37,800
a trick question. A lot of people think it's the

625
00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:41,599
Treaty of vest Failure that created it. Not true, Not true,

626
00:42:41,639 --> 00:42:43,159
the Treaty of vest failure. At the end of the

627
00:42:43,679 --> 00:42:45,400
this is and this is the thing. You know, people

628
00:42:45,519 --> 00:42:48,519
like oh, Luther, Luther starts his uh. I'm not trying

629
00:42:48,519 --> 00:42:49,800
to catch you on the spot. It's just it's just

630
00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:55,000
I'm trying to challenge people's thinking. Luther hammers his thesis

631
00:42:55,039 --> 00:42:56,760
on the door, and then five minutes later the Thirty

632
00:42:56,800 --> 00:43:01,320
Years War starts. That's not how it works, right. The

633
00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:04,719
Piece of Augsburg in fifteen fifty five and the Augsburg

634
00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:07,840
Confession in fifteen fifty five established the principle of I'm

635
00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:10,000
not going to say the Latin, but his realm, his

636
00:43:10,119 --> 00:43:14,960
religion right. And this was in large part, and it

637
00:43:15,039 --> 00:43:17,280
was Charles the Fifth who negotiated this. Charles the fifth

638
00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:20,320
was emperor at the time also king of Spain. Charles

639
00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:24,440
the fifth negotiated this with the like schmaly caught League,

640
00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:26,880
I think is what it was called, some stupid German name.

641
00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:31,400
It was this military alliance of all of the Lutheran principalities.

642
00:43:31,440 --> 00:43:34,079
Because one of the one of the reasons why luther

643
00:43:34,199 --> 00:43:37,519
succeeded is he got a lot of rogue counter elites,

644
00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:41,320
particularly in the realms of Saxony and in Hesse in

645
00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:46,679
northern Germany, to convert to become Lutheran. A lot of

646
00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:50,840
free cities did as well. And these people, you know this,

647
00:43:51,119 --> 00:43:54,280
and they formed a military alliance with each other, and

648
00:43:54,639 --> 00:43:57,320
they were powerful enough that they were willing. They were

649
00:43:57,440 --> 00:44:00,519
able to hold leverage over to Charles the Fifth because

650
00:44:00,760 --> 00:44:04,719
at the time, in the fifteen thirties, the Turks were

651
00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:08,599
marching against the Austrians. The Turks were marching north from

652
00:44:08,639 --> 00:44:11,840
the Balkans, and so temporary peace over and over and

653
00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:15,760
over again was granted with the Lutherans because the Empire

654
00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:17,519
couldn't afford to be in a state of civil war

655
00:44:18,199 --> 00:44:23,480
while the while the Turks were marching northward. But the

656
00:44:23,559 --> 00:44:26,639
Piece of Alusburg was the sort of the legal conclusion

657
00:44:26,840 --> 00:44:29,519
of this long series of you know, luther being on

658
00:44:29,599 --> 00:44:31,880
the run, being protected by the Duke of Saxony, who

659
00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:36,239
was one of the first to convert, writing his his

660
00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:44,880
pamphlets things like that. And the Piece of Augsburg in

661
00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:50,840
fifteen fifty five is what allowed for this principle, you know,

662
00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:56,000
his realm, his religion, his realm piece, et cetera, for

663
00:44:56,199 --> 00:45:02,840
Lutherans only, for Lutherans' only. A lot of people today

664
00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:05,800
will tell you that there is animosity between the Lutherans.

665
00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:11,559
And you know, the only the largest remaining Calvinist denomination

666
00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:14,599
is the Presbyterians, which are the Scottish Calvinists who are

667
00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:22,559
an offshoot outside the scope of this, the Calvinists were

668
00:45:22,639 --> 00:45:25,800
not accepted in the Empire the Reformed they were. They

669
00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:27,960
were still considered heretics and will be put to death

670
00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:30,199
whether you were in a Lutheran realm or a Catholic realm.

671
00:45:30,199 --> 00:45:34,079
And this was in fifteen fifty five in part the

672
00:45:34,519 --> 00:45:38,719
exclusion of the Reform because the Reformed were seen at

673
00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:42,920
the time as you know, the Calvinists inhabited this weird niche.

674
00:45:43,559 --> 00:45:47,239
The Lutherans were the moderate reformers, They were the most

675
00:45:47,519 --> 00:45:50,800
close to Rome. They were even overtures, you know, Malengthon

676
00:45:50,840 --> 00:45:53,840
even talked about, you know, going back into Rome if

677
00:45:53,920 --> 00:46:01,719
certain concessions were given. Now it didn't happen, of course,

678
00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:04,119
but it was the fact that the conversations were happening

679
00:46:04,199 --> 00:46:06,920
kind of tells you something, right. And the Lutherans were

680
00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:10,760
a lot, let's just say, more skittish about this split

681
00:46:10,840 --> 00:46:14,800
from Rome than the Reformed or the radical the radical Reformers,

682
00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:18,840
who are a lot more sanguine about the prospect. The

683
00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:22,719
Calvinists inhabited this weird niche and that they were either

684
00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:26,039
the most moderate radicals or they were the most radical moderates.

685
00:46:26,119 --> 00:46:27,760
And that's not a good place to be because they

686
00:46:27,760 --> 00:46:32,320
were not immediately included with the Piece of Augsburg. Now,

687
00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:35,880
the Piece of Augsburg did not create religious tolerance in

688
00:46:36,039 --> 00:46:39,760
the lay people. The lay people, if they were not,

689
00:46:40,719 --> 00:46:44,679
they were forcibly converted to whoever their sovereigns faith were.

690
00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:48,559
But they were given permission to leave. They were given

691
00:46:48,599 --> 00:46:51,280
a grace period to leave and go to another province

692
00:46:51,639 --> 00:46:53,920
if they didn't want to convert to their lieges faith,

693
00:46:54,000 --> 00:47:01,119
to their sovereigns faith. But the piece of Aluxburg was

694
00:47:01,199 --> 00:47:03,920
a very, very very brittle thing. It was a very

695
00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:07,599
delicate thing, right because, especially when the Council of Trent

696
00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:12,000
was established and the counter Reformation begins, you know, the

697
00:47:12,039 --> 00:47:15,360
counter Reformation, the Catholic Church takes a good hard look

698
00:47:15,360 --> 00:47:19,960
at itself. Right, the Catholic Church sees that a not

699
00:47:20,199 --> 00:47:24,239
insignificant portion of its constituents have split off and are

700
00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:29,519
no longer in communion with the Church of Rome and

701
00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:35,239
the Council of Trent, and the counter Reformation generally began

702
00:47:35,440 --> 00:47:40,000
with kind of this ethos that Luther has gone too far,

703
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:44,519
Luther has taken a step too far in separating from

704
00:47:44,559 --> 00:47:48,760
the Church. However, a great many things that he points

705
00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:52,119
out about the Church are valid, you know. And these

706
00:47:52,119 --> 00:47:54,679
are things like, you know, the selling of indulgences and

707
00:47:56,199 --> 00:48:00,800
other low hanging fruit. And the Catholic Church starts addressing this,

708
00:48:01,119 --> 00:48:07,280
starts reforming itself. The now the Jesuit Order is established

709
00:48:07,320 --> 00:48:10,440
around this time, and the primary purpose of the Jesuit

710
00:48:10,639 --> 00:48:16,480
Order is in reaction to this, uh to you know,

711
00:48:16,599 --> 00:48:18,960
partially also to spread the spread the word to the natives,

712
00:48:21,039 --> 00:48:26,000
but also in in in reaction to the Protestants, and

713
00:48:26,039 --> 00:48:29,679
you have, you know, a great many Jesuit scholars engaging

714
00:48:29,760 --> 00:48:34,360
in debate with protests, most notably about most notably you know,

715
00:48:34,480 --> 00:48:37,480
I think we talked about preterism earlier. That was a

716
00:48:37,519 --> 00:48:41,320
really good example of when a Dutch Protestant in a

717
00:48:42,119 --> 00:48:46,440
Jesuit Catholic I believe from Spain, engaged in a in

718
00:48:46,519 --> 00:48:50,880
a theological intellectual debate over the concept of preterism. And

719
00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:53,039
this happened all throughout Europe. Like I said, this printing

720
00:48:53,079 --> 00:48:59,320
press created this republic of letters, but the Piece of

721
00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:02,440
Aluxburg created it was it was very much a sort

722
00:49:02,480 --> 00:49:06,880
of compromise piece. It didn't make anyone happy, especially the

723
00:49:06,960 --> 00:49:10,079
Catholic Church after the counter Reformation occurred. The Pope hated it.

724
00:49:10,199 --> 00:49:12,159
The Pope hated the Piece of Augsburg. I think it

725
00:49:12,239 --> 00:49:16,880
was condemned. It was not, you know, by the papacy.

726
00:49:19,119 --> 00:49:23,880
But once again crises in the world system. The emperor's

727
00:49:23,960 --> 00:49:27,159
doing one thing and he claims to be the the

728
00:49:27,639 --> 00:49:29,760
you know, first servant of the pope, the greatest servant

729
00:49:29,800 --> 00:49:32,960
of the pope. But he's going off and completely ignoring

730
00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:38,280
anything that the Pope says about political affairs, and so

731
00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:40,840
whatever your opinion of it is, this, this world system

732
00:49:40,920 --> 00:49:48,800
is breaking. And I mean we talked about national conceptions

733
00:49:49,480 --> 00:49:52,559
right that, you know, the nation states that would come

734
00:49:52,599 --> 00:49:54,360
out of this or the proto nation states that would

735
00:49:54,400 --> 00:49:56,519
come out of this, although they were being formed now.

736
00:49:56,679 --> 00:49:58,840
Charles the fifth was the first one to style himself

737
00:49:58,920 --> 00:50:02,800
King of Spain. That didn't exist prior to him. You know,

738
00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:06,320
the Kings of France, especially through the Wars of religion,

739
00:50:06,360 --> 00:50:10,880
with the centralization occurring under the Valua kings, France was

740
00:50:10,920 --> 00:50:18,519
becoming much more of a solidified, centralized concept. And the

741
00:50:18,800 --> 00:50:22,599
nature of that and particularly the nature of that concept

742
00:50:22,760 --> 00:50:27,400
in relation to its confessional heritage. You know, French Catholicism

743
00:50:27,440 --> 00:50:30,360
and Spanish Catholicism, as we've outlined before, are two very

744
00:50:30,400 --> 00:50:36,159
different things, particularly in specifically in their relation to the Pope,

745
00:50:37,000 --> 00:50:38,599
and in their relation to the Pope is how they

746
00:50:38,719 --> 00:50:42,599
treat their own Catholicism. You know, the more I read this,

747
00:50:43,239 --> 00:50:46,239
or rather the more I research this period, mister Pete,

748
00:50:47,239 --> 00:50:49,840
the more I find myself hating the French more than

749
00:50:49,880 --> 00:50:55,280
anyone else. The French are like the most cynical and

750
00:50:55,480 --> 00:51:01,519
like self interested and just blatantly. I've already said cynical,

751
00:51:01,559 --> 00:51:04,199
but that's the best word for them. You know, they

752
00:51:04,719 --> 00:51:08,760
made an alliance with the Turks against the Emperor and

753
00:51:08,840 --> 00:51:14,320
it lasted until like seventeen ninety eight. You know, the French,

754
00:51:14,519 --> 00:51:17,280
you know, and we've talked about about Gallicanism and the

755
00:51:17,360 --> 00:51:21,719
French self conception of how they believe that the Catholic Church,

756
00:51:21,760 --> 00:51:23,840
at least the Catholic Church in France. But then you know,

757
00:51:24,079 --> 00:51:26,119
you look at the Avignon Papa, see the Catholic Church

758
00:51:26,199 --> 00:51:30,079
broadly should serve the interests of France above everything else.

759
00:51:31,679 --> 00:51:37,239
And you know, during the French Wars of Religion, you know,

760
00:51:37,280 --> 00:51:42,039
which I briefly mentioned earlier, where the French were persecuting

761
00:51:42,079 --> 00:51:45,760
the Huguenots in their own country, the French were supporting

762
00:51:46,280 --> 00:51:54,960
that same Protestant league against the Empire. So the hypocrisy,

763
00:51:55,000 --> 00:51:56,639
and then later on in the thirty Years where the

764
00:51:56,679 --> 00:51:58,519
French joined on the side of the Protestants. This is

765
00:51:58,840 --> 00:52:02,440
look like this is the thing like that? That? Now

766
00:52:02,519 --> 00:52:05,239
that was just a personal aside, mister Pete. You know,

767
00:52:05,280 --> 00:52:06,400
the French are treacherous and.

768
00:52:06,440 --> 00:52:10,599
Speaker 1: That's that's that's sort of behavior that we attribute to

769
00:52:10,639 --> 00:52:11,239
another group.

770
00:52:11,920 --> 00:52:17,519
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, you know, I I don't know, I don't know,

771
00:52:17,599 --> 00:52:18,800
I don't know what I have to say on that

772
00:52:18,880 --> 00:52:20,880
the Front are treacherous and are not to be trusted.

773
00:52:23,760 --> 00:52:28,000
But besides that, you know, so this is this is

774
00:52:28,119 --> 00:52:31,079
the truth. The Piece of Augsburg pleases no one, please,

775
00:52:31,159 --> 00:52:34,199
doesn't please the Pope, doesn't please the radical reform. And

776
00:52:34,280 --> 00:52:37,559
the Lutherans who kind of benefit from this, like kind

777
00:52:37,599 --> 00:52:40,320
of really start hating the radical reform because the radical

778
00:52:40,400 --> 00:52:42,880
reformed or not the not the radical Reform, they get

779
00:52:42,920 --> 00:52:48,960
genocided the Calvinists rather the calvil They really start hating

780
00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:52,840
the Calvinists because the Calvinists start making theological and political

781
00:52:52,920 --> 00:52:57,159
claims that go against the precepts of the Piece of Augsburg,

782
00:52:57,199 --> 00:53:00,000
which you know, also includes the Augsburg the Augsburg Confines

783
00:53:00,079 --> 00:53:06,639
Ession which each realm is to hold by. And so

784
00:53:07,119 --> 00:53:10,960
this begins this animosity which it continues to this day

785
00:53:11,960 --> 00:53:13,079
within reform traditions.

786
00:53:13,159 --> 00:53:19,559
Speaker 1: So I mean, I went, you know, I went, I

787
00:53:19,679 --> 00:53:23,840
went to a reform seminary. The all it is is

788
00:53:25,559 --> 00:53:29,360
it it's just arguing. Yeah, it's just if any if

789
00:53:29,400 --> 00:53:33,599
there was a non product Presbyterian there, it was just arguments,

790
00:53:34,239 --> 00:53:38,599
God forbid of Baptists come in or yeah, anyone even

791
00:53:38,880 --> 00:53:43,159
even high church, some kind of high church Protestant. It's

792
00:53:44,159 --> 00:53:47,199
that's all it was. It was just a debate society.

793
00:53:47,559 --> 00:53:49,920
Speaker 2: Well, and that's and that's kind of how how it's

794
00:53:49,920 --> 00:53:54,840
always been. But you know, but these animosities have historical origin,

795
00:53:54,920 --> 00:53:58,679
and they didn't come out of nowhere. They didn't come

796
00:53:58,719 --> 00:54:03,800
out of nowhere. And and I mean, like to bring

797
00:54:03,880 --> 00:54:06,920
this back, this complex adaptive system, it was dealing with

798
00:54:07,000 --> 00:54:10,719
a lot of things at once. This world's the Christendom

799
00:54:10,760 --> 00:54:12,760
world system was dealing with a lot of things at once.

800
00:54:12,840 --> 00:54:16,480
It was dealing with its emperor basically having completely rolled

801
00:54:16,519 --> 00:54:22,719
over the pope. Its pope, you know, it's popes. Let's

802
00:54:22,760 --> 00:54:26,400
just say, I don't think i'm gonna say anything controversial here.

803
00:54:27,400 --> 00:54:32,079
Alexander the sixth wasn't exactly the highest example of moral character,

804
00:54:32,800 --> 00:54:36,119
all right, I'm not gonna pick on that low hanging

805
00:54:36,119 --> 00:54:38,239
fruit to much. But it had it had a string

806
00:54:38,320 --> 00:54:41,559
of not very good popes that did not reflect very

807
00:54:41,599 --> 00:54:45,760
well on the Church. They were a part of. It had,

808
00:54:46,440 --> 00:54:49,400
you know, the Italian Wars, It had the intercom, the

809
00:54:49,480 --> 00:54:55,159
conflict of the French Gallikins with the Spanish and imperial

810
00:54:56,079 --> 00:54:58,800
you could say, papal loyalists, or at least ide loyal

811
00:54:58,880 --> 00:55:04,199
to the idea of the paper. You know, you had

812
00:55:07,280 --> 00:55:10,840
the printing press, You had the Turks encroaching and military

813
00:55:10,880 --> 00:55:15,119
defeat against the Turks. You had these economic issues and

814
00:55:15,280 --> 00:55:21,039
this contact with foreign groups of people. You had what else,

815
00:55:25,079 --> 00:55:28,719
resentful counter elites in the north of Germany who didn't

816
00:55:28,880 --> 00:55:32,039
like how the emperor was treating them. And you know,

817
00:55:32,320 --> 00:55:35,760
impartially partially out of belief, genuine religious belief, and partially

818
00:55:35,800 --> 00:55:41,960
out of political expediency, took advantage of a movement, of

819
00:55:42,039 --> 00:55:45,519
a religious movement that was catching fire. You know, there

820
00:55:45,679 --> 00:55:48,199
were all of these things that went into this. It

821
00:55:48,440 --> 00:55:53,280
wasn't a single thing, you know, if Luther's reforerement, even

822
00:55:53,320 --> 00:55:56,320
if with he had, even if he had the printing press, right,

823
00:55:57,360 --> 00:55:58,840
even if you had the printing press, if it had

824
00:55:58,920 --> 00:56:03,079
happened at any other peers, it's possible the Lutherans would

825
00:56:03,079 --> 00:56:06,800
have gone and found, you know, founded another monastic order,

826
00:56:07,519 --> 00:56:11,440
like what happened with the Dominicans and the Benedictines earlier

827
00:56:11,519 --> 00:56:13,880
in the in church history, or like would have happened

828
00:56:13,880 --> 00:56:17,000
with the concilier movement, even even one hundred years before

829
00:56:18,320 --> 00:56:25,719
you know. But unfortunately, the anomalies of history happen when

830
00:56:25,800 --> 00:56:31,280
you have a perfect storm of circumstances, all uniquely conspiring

831
00:56:31,639 --> 00:56:35,119
to result in one single moment where a massive break

832
00:56:35,320 --> 00:56:38,679
is made. And once the break is made, it is

833
00:56:38,800 --> 00:56:41,559
almost impossible to put that genie back into the bottle.

834
00:56:41,599 --> 00:56:45,840
The rat the reformation, the printing press, and it was

835
00:56:45,920 --> 00:56:51,079
like opening Pandora's box. All of the sudden, everyone across

836
00:56:51,159 --> 00:56:54,239
you're up. Much like today. Much like today, everyone had

837
00:56:54,280 --> 00:56:58,559
an ant on account. Anyone could say anything and have

838
00:56:58,679 --> 00:57:02,079
people read it right, you know, or at least if

839
00:57:02,079 --> 00:57:05,199
you were literate, because that actually wasn't as guaranteed of

840
00:57:05,239 --> 00:57:08,159
a thing. At this time. Literacy was growing, especially amongst

841
00:57:08,159 --> 00:57:10,679
the merchant classes, but you still had mass of literacy

842
00:57:10,719 --> 00:57:14,280
amongst the peasants. That made it even worse. You know,

843
00:57:16,000 --> 00:57:19,840
the peasants wars Luther famously, like you know, tells the nobles,

844
00:57:19,920 --> 00:57:23,079
kill them all, kill them all, you know, and they

845
00:57:23,119 --> 00:57:27,760
deserve it. But like the peasants started getting these retardo

846
00:57:27,880 --> 00:57:38,480
ideas and the radical reformers and were a a I

847
00:57:38,559 --> 00:57:42,800
think a great example of the excesses of the Reformation.

848
00:57:43,320 --> 00:57:44,880
You know, I have almost anyone will agree with that.

849
00:57:45,119 --> 00:57:51,400
Things like free love cults, things like radical apocalyptism, things

850
00:57:51,440 --> 00:57:55,280
like proto communism, you know, peasants taking out resentment. You know,

851
00:57:55,480 --> 00:57:59,880
all of this followed once you opened up that box.

852
00:58:01,760 --> 00:58:05,480
And actually, you know, the Protestant movements that survived what

853
00:58:05,639 --> 00:58:08,679
we think of, you know, the Magisterial Reformation. You know,

854
00:58:08,719 --> 00:58:10,639
they very much cracked down on that sort of thing.

855
00:58:10,719 --> 00:58:13,800
They were state churches, they were state enforced you know,

856
00:58:13,920 --> 00:58:15,679
similar to how the Catholic Church is, just on a

857
00:58:15,719 --> 00:58:18,800
smaller scale. They would burn people at the stake, they

858
00:58:18,840 --> 00:58:27,639
would kill people for having radical, radical ideas. But regardless,

859
00:58:28,599 --> 00:58:35,719
this whole mess with the Protestant Reformation, it did not

860
00:58:35,960 --> 00:58:38,400
come out of a healthy system. That's the main point.

861
00:58:38,599 --> 00:58:42,599
It did not come out of a healthy system. It

862
00:58:42,719 --> 00:58:45,320
came out of a system that was very much in crisis,

863
00:58:45,960 --> 00:58:49,960
a system that was very much not capable of meeting

864
00:58:50,320 --> 00:58:55,239
the threats of its day, both internal and external. And

865
00:58:57,599 --> 00:59:03,199
because it was incapable, the Reformation happened, and what came

866
00:59:03,239 --> 00:59:06,639
after it was a result of the of the choices

867
00:59:07,119 --> 00:59:11,119
that those people who were incapable of meeting those circumstances made.

868
00:59:12,599 --> 00:59:15,480
So that's kind of how I'm going to leave it,

869
00:59:16,719 --> 00:59:18,880
more or less. I think, I think that's a that's

870
00:59:18,920 --> 00:59:24,960
a good little summary of the whole thing. It's a minefield.

871
00:59:26,280 --> 00:59:28,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, you could go you know, people taught

872
00:59:28,840 --> 00:59:32,480
about the World War two series I did with Thomas

873
00:59:32,559 --> 00:59:36,239
twenty three twenty four episodes. You could go forever with us.

874
00:59:36,800 --> 00:59:37,000
Speaker 2: Yeah.

875
00:59:37,960 --> 00:59:40,280
Speaker 1: I mean, once you start getting into the Reformation and

876
00:59:40,559 --> 00:59:44,760
everything that all the implications of it, all the players,

877
00:59:46,079 --> 00:59:52,239
you know, the different countries that I mean, it's it's insane.

878
00:59:52,360 --> 00:59:55,239
But you know, one thing it did do was it

879
00:59:58,599 --> 01:00:02,800
began to bring down that centralizing power that so many

880
01:00:02,920 --> 01:00:09,159
countries in the in Europe basically relied upon. It is true.

881
01:00:09,239 --> 01:00:15,880
Speaker 2: It is true, and I mean and it it It

882
01:00:16,079 --> 01:00:18,719
wasn't apocalyptic in the sense that it brought about the

883
01:00:18,880 --> 01:00:22,360
end of days, but it certainly did bring the ending

884
01:00:22,440 --> 01:00:26,400
of a world. You know, modernity began, not necessarily with

885
01:00:26,480 --> 01:00:30,440
the Protestant Reformation, but you could say with the I

886
01:00:30,519 --> 01:00:33,079
think you know, a good point to say it began

887
01:00:33,239 --> 01:00:37,239
was with it had predecessors, but modernity began with the

888
01:00:37,320 --> 01:00:41,360
shattering of the previous world paradigm, which was Christendom. You

889
01:00:41,400 --> 01:00:46,599
could argue that, you know, modernity began with Europe no

890
01:00:46,840 --> 01:00:51,079
longer be what when the idea of Europe replaced the

891
01:00:51,159 --> 01:00:53,599
idea of Christendom. That's I think, that's I think what

892
01:00:53,719 --> 01:00:54,039
began it.

893
01:00:56,880 --> 01:00:59,880
Speaker 1: Eventually you're going to get to the Enlightenment, and that's what.

894
01:01:00,079 --> 01:01:03,400
Speaker 2: And uh, that's a whole other cannel rooms.

895
01:01:04,159 --> 01:01:10,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, not to not to be yeah, overally hyperbolic, Catholic,

896
01:01:11,159 --> 01:01:15,559
but you know, you basically every man, every man of Pope. Yeah,

897
01:01:16,599 --> 01:01:18,960
then you know, with the Enlightenment, every man of God.

898
01:01:21,280 --> 01:01:25,360
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean there are certainly connections you can draw,

899
01:01:25,679 --> 01:01:27,719
but I think that's a good time to end it.

900
01:01:29,039 --> 01:01:31,599
Speaker 1: Yep. And well, I will say that that's one good

901
01:01:31,639 --> 01:01:35,239
thing about the about the Old Glory Club is we

902
01:01:35,440 --> 01:01:38,119
understand what the stakes are and we put those put

903
01:01:38,159 --> 01:01:39,280
those differences aside.

904
01:01:40,199 --> 01:01:43,599
Speaker 2: Absolutely, it is a certainly an acumenical moment, that's for sure.

905
01:01:43,760 --> 01:01:46,039
There are much bigger you know, much like there are

906
01:01:46,119 --> 01:01:48,760
turks outside the gates of Vienna, there are much bigger threats.

907
01:01:51,000 --> 01:01:54,920
Speaker 1: Yep. So I plugged the Old Glory Club. Anything else,

908
01:01:55,159 --> 01:02:00,400
No Old Glory Club, all right, Paul, thank you until

909
01:02:00,440 --> 01:02:04,480
the next time. And yeah, I can't wait to see

910
01:02:04,519 --> 01:02:05,559
what what what is next?

911
01:02:06,119 --> 01:02:08,679
Speaker 2: Oh shoot, I don't know. I could pull it up.

912
01:02:08,719 --> 01:02:11,239
I think I think it's either it's either economics or

913
01:02:11,280 --> 01:02:15,400
it's the the Gutenberg printing Press. It's one of the two.

914
01:02:16,639 --> 01:02:19,239
Speaker 1: Okay, Economics is going to be interesting. I've already started

915
01:02:19,280 --> 01:02:21,960
doing a bunch of background on that. So all right,

916
01:02:22,519 --> 01:02:23,679
thank you, Paul, appreciate it.

917
01:02:23,800 --> 01:02:24,599
Speaker 2: Take care, mister Peter