Speaker 1: Hmm.
Speaker 2: Coming to you from the dining room table at East
Speaker 2: Barbary Lane. Welcome to a very special edition of Full
Speaker 2: Circle the Podcast. Last our last episode, I racked my
Speaker 2: brain in the morning trying to figure out what a
Speaker 2: useful response was to the news. There's just so much
Speaker 2: going on, and you know, within our own community of
Speaker 2: trans and gender non performing folk, there's we're playing whack
Speaker 2: a mole in this country, and uh, you know, we
Speaker 2: have another mass shooting in you of all Texas, and
Speaker 2: you know, there's nothing I'm going to say that that
Speaker 2: every raging liberals isn't saying, and I'm going to leave
Speaker 2: that to them. We are in the very fortunate position
Speaker 2: of having a dear friend who is a two time
Speaker 2: Peabody Award winning radio host. For thirty five years, almost
Speaker 2: thirty five years in Philadelphia and more than thirty five
Speaker 2: years throughout this country. She has hosted children's radio. She
Speaker 2: hosts WXPN's Kids Corner, which I you know, with the
Speaker 2: advent of technology, is no longer just a little local show.
Speaker 2: You can listen to Kids Corner almost anywhere and we'll
Speaker 2: provide that link. Welcome to the Full Circle Table.
Speaker 1: Kathy O'Connell thank you, Thank you so much. It's so
Speaker 1: cool to be here at your table, like I've never
Speaker 1: been there anywhere any time you read more. But yes,
Speaker 1: and thank you for that kind introduction, and I will
Speaker 1: try to live up to it because the fact is,
Speaker 1: as soon as I thought about Okay, music forbid, where
Speaker 1: do you go for bad times? I went back to
Speaker 1: and you're talking about, you know, going back a long way,
Speaker 1: the Challenger, and that kind of was where my go
Speaker 1: to comes from, which is the Rainbow Connection. The Rainbow Connection, which,
Speaker 1: if you've ever seen the documentary about Paul Williams who
Speaker 1: Will Know is the most popular song or well known
Speaker 1: song in the world. But it also is this self
Speaker 1: reflective why song about things that have no explanation and
Speaker 1: no answer. And the thing is, in a world where
Speaker 1: adults and kids are really kind of dealing with the
Speaker 1: same horrendous experience at once, we're all in that scene,
Speaker 1: but we're all you know on that you know, in
Speaker 1: that canoe with Kermit or however the Muppet Show starts,
Speaker 1: you know, goes there. But that's the fact. And it's
Speaker 1: times like that when kids immediately are asking, you know,
Speaker 1: are asking all, you know, questions that we don't have
Speaker 1: an answer to. Yeah, and that not only do we
Speaker 1: not have an answer to, but the answer we may
Speaker 1: have in the moment it may be so you know,
Speaker 1: full of emotion that we're really not doing ourselves or
Speaker 1: our kids. You have that much good And aren't you
Speaker 1: glad you asked one simple question that I just went
Speaker 1: off on.
Speaker 2: Okay, I'm going to come back to it. Do you
Speaker 2: even ask a question I didn't yet?
Speaker 3: You know, we didn't even say who we were yet.
Speaker 3: For I am Martha Magical and I am Charles Tyson Junior.
Speaker 2: Okay we got that. Yeah, Okay, there, my goodness. Thank you.
Speaker 2: See he pays attention to the details.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's why he's the producer.
Speaker 2: I know, I know. I just I sit here and
Speaker 2: try to be pretty and you do for thank you.
Speaker 2: For those who don't know your show, would you give
Speaker 2: us an overview?
Speaker 1: It's a basically a call in radio show for kids.
Speaker 1: It's aimed at officially at ages six through twelve. I
Speaker 1: get them all over the place, and you know, I've
Speaker 1: done it so long now that I get kids who
Speaker 1: grew up listening to me, who are now adults who
Speaker 1: may have children of their own, or who may not
Speaker 1: have children of their own right who also definitely listen
Speaker 1: to me. And but uh, it started out as every
Speaker 1: day call ins, but technology and changes in the last
Speaker 1: couple of years especially, have evolved to the point where
Speaker 1: it's live with call ins two nights a week and
Speaker 1: that's me and the kids just talking to each other.
Speaker 1: And the rest of the time it's a mix of science,
Speaker 1: you know, conversations and you know, regular contributors and guests
Speaker 1: on a variety of subjects that are interesting to kids,
Speaker 1: like you know, science and pets and and you know,
Speaker 1: it's something that you're actually going to learn from occasionally.
Speaker 2: Right and book.
Speaker 1: But but what what it really is, it's a sales
Speaker 1: show that you learn from occasionally.
Speaker 2: We will we will get to Soupy. He's on here.
Speaker 2: Did you want to get to Soupy now? And just
Speaker 2: get that out of the now?
Speaker 1: Okay, not yet, but just as an explanation a part
Speaker 1: of my approach, Yeah.
Speaker 2: No, And it's and it's an amazing approach. And it's
Speaker 2: always fascinated me that you know, in this era of
Speaker 2: screen time, you know when kids are just bombarded with
Speaker 2: with visual things and and and they've got video games
Speaker 2: and they've got they've got smartphones in front of them, cocoa, lemon,
Speaker 2: you melon or whatever. You still have a loyal listener ship.
Speaker 2: I don't even know. You still have a loyal listenership
Speaker 2: of children who call in, who pay attention, you know,
Speaker 2: and get that time on the radio, either to answer
Speaker 2: a question or play an instrument or you know. And
Speaker 2: a lot of the times, I know you do have topics,
Speaker 2: so they're calling in to share something specific. One of
Speaker 2: the things I learned I never realized this as a
Speaker 2: kid is until I had children of my own who
Speaker 2: were your listeners. There's a big difference between kind of
Speaker 2: talking at kids and talking to kids, and that you
Speaker 2: are the master of talking to kids and really with them.
Speaker 2: That's true. Seen you do it. Yeah, Well it amazes
Speaker 2: me because you get them to talk. You get really
Speaker 2: shy children to talk to you.
Speaker 1: And I wish I knew how, and I kind of do.
Speaker 1: But because I've been thinking about this as we you know,
Speaker 1: came to the last few days to you know, the
Speaker 1: real crux of it. And I finally came to it
Speaker 1: while I was walking my dog, and that is I
Speaker 1: nobody ever talked in my family. We talked we were
Speaker 1: funny and witty and you know, said a lot and
Speaker 1: talked at each other and you you know, I can
Speaker 1: tell you a million stories about my family, but as
Speaker 1: far as talking with us about anything, and without going
Speaker 1: into a whole lot of detail, let's just say, my
Speaker 1: there's a line from All about Eve, What a story?
Speaker 1: Everything but the Bloodhounds snapping at a rear end. And
Speaker 1: that's basically my childhood. And you know, life as it
Speaker 1: is for so many people, and nobody in my family
Speaker 1: kind of ever talk to us about it. So things
Speaker 1: just happened and I didn't realize when I was a kid. Well,
Speaker 1: you know, the one thing you just know when you're
Speaker 1: a kid is that you are powerless, right, you know,
Speaker 1: because really you are. And if you don't think you
Speaker 1: have any power to ask, well, wait a minute, what's
Speaker 1: going on here? And you know what about me? If
Speaker 1: you don't think you have that power to ask, that
Speaker 1: nobody's going to give it to you, especially if they
Speaker 1: came from a family where nobody ever talked to each other. Right.
Speaker 1: So I just think maybe part of it is a
Speaker 1: I was always a really good babysitter, you know, I
Speaker 1: just really was be you know, I love to talk,
Speaker 1: but also no, no grown up like really ever kind
Speaker 1: of talk to me like that in my life, right,
Speaker 1: and maybe I learned from from not having it.
Speaker 2: And you know, my my parents are probably about ten
Speaker 2: years older than or younger than yours would be, so like,
Speaker 2: you know, but there's still that kind of depression generation.
Speaker 2: And they didn't they didn't include us. They you know,
Speaker 2: we picked up, we gleaned from their conversations and what
Speaker 2: we overheard, but we weren't part of the conversation. You've
Speaker 2: even at times brought in experts on your show, Okay
Speaker 2: to talk about really hard things like domestic violence and
Speaker 2: sexual abuse and hopefully spark conversations. And that that to
Speaker 2: me is incredible because it is giving children that agency
Speaker 2: that they don't have.
Speaker 1: And the vast majority of kids, as I said, you know,
Speaker 1: it's a call and show and it's great, and the
Speaker 1: interaction of me with kids, it is a lot of
Speaker 1: fun to listen to. But the fact is the vast
Speaker 1: number of kids who are listening to kids corner and
Speaker 1: who might get something out of what I'm doing, do
Speaker 1: not call and may just be the kid who's sitting
Speaker 1: in a bedroom in you know, the middle of nowhere
Speaker 1: and thinks they're nobody else like them in the world.
Speaker 1: And here's somebody who knows what they're talking about, right,
Speaker 1: talk to them and validate you, saying, yeah, you should
Speaker 1: not be getting hit you, you know that, just letting them
Speaker 1: know that, Yeah, here's somebody who knows what they're talking
Speaker 1: about telling you something directly. And my role in that is, Okay,
Speaker 1: here's somebody you know. You know, she's an idiot on
Speaker 1: the radio, but you know her and she's bringing her
Speaker 1: so there's a certain level of trust.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that is amazing.
Speaker 1: I am grateful every day, as you know, I do do.
Speaker 1: I fell into this, you know.
Speaker 2: When when we were emailing back and forth, I mentioned
Speaker 2: I wear pink because I think that.
Speaker 1: Was the first.
Speaker 2: And I do wear conversation some of it, some of
Speaker 2: it has come from you. So I'm going to say, uh,
Speaker 2: there is no question and should be no question that
Speaker 2: Kathy O'Connell is a staunch ally to the trans community.
Speaker 2: My wardrobe reflects it, my heart reflects it. And you know,
Speaker 2: I know many of the trans folks who are now
Speaker 2: walking around as adults, who you have walked with over
Speaker 2: the years and now they're they're turning thirty, and they're vibrant,
Speaker 2: and they're they're out there being anarchists and shaking things up,
Speaker 2: rabble browsers, and I adore it. But I remember, and
Speaker 2: I think you brought the song to my attention because
Speaker 2: there was an email you had gotten pushedback. Yes, I
Speaker 2: think was that the first time somebody called you an
Speaker 2: anarchist or what was the term communist?
Speaker 1: Six months go by and I don't get called the communists.
Speaker 1: It's something you know, And I'm not flipping up to
Speaker 1: my union ancestors.
Speaker 2: Thank God for public radio.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and and honestly, I'm surprised I don't get a
Speaker 1: whole lot more complaints just because we'll get it. We'll
Speaker 1: get deeply into the other stuff I do play, But yeah,
Speaker 1: we should. Background. The song is called I Wear Pink.
Speaker 1: It's from a band called Hullabaloo, which is basically two
Speaker 1: guys from California, and the song was introduced at a
Speaker 1: gathering of kids independent artists KINDI Artists. We had a
Speaker 1: w XPN for Kindy coom and Steve Denis, the musician
Speaker 1: who wrote who created it, got up on stage during
Speaker 1: a showcase was like, I just wanted to like cut
Speaker 1: test out this song and I forget this is the
Speaker 1: audience to do it with, and it's you know it.
Speaker 1: The first lyrics are, you know, I play with dolls
Speaker 1: and I wear pink. I don't care at all what
Speaker 1: anybody thinks. And it's just this, you know, he is
Speaker 1: who he is, and I kind of think it's, you know,
Speaker 1: given what's come after it and the loud, proud music
Speaker 1: that's come out since then a few years ago, it's
Speaker 1: kind of middle. You know, really, this is what you're
Speaker 1: excited about. Because when and I got a letter, I
Speaker 1: got an email about it, an angry email from a parent.
Speaker 1: You know, I know the homosexual agenda was in there somewhere.
Speaker 1: You know, I know that was mentioned in there. But
Speaker 1: you know, and I for and this, like we said,
Speaker 1: thank god for Public Radio forwarded it because I'm a
Speaker 1: good company girl. I am. Lisa Simpson routed it to
Speaker 1: my bosses just to say, just so you're aware, you know,
Speaker 1: fallen mama commie again, should I respond? And luckily I
Speaker 1: also I have a program director who once said to me,
Speaker 1: when I responded, shall we say angrily to that? To something?
Speaker 1: Someone said, why don't you just respond? Thank you for
Speaker 1: your thoughts. And he said that to me years ago,
Speaker 1: and it's like, you know, so I go and I
Speaker 1: said to both, do you want me to say thank
Speaker 1: you for your You know, I'll respond if you want.
Speaker 1: And you know, my program director said, no, some things
Speaker 1: just don't deserve response if you want to, but it
Speaker 1: really doesn't deserve response, like you, dude, don't listen to me.
Speaker 1: Good thank you.
Speaker 2: For your thoughts.
Speaker 3: That sounds like bless your heart.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it does exactly. I didn't stop playing it. And
Speaker 1: and oh there's so much more. Yeah, think you're going
Speaker 1: to complain about I wear a pig? Oh wait, wait,
Speaker 1: do you hear.
Speaker 3: Say their names?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: We are gonna. Yeah, we are going to put together
Speaker 2: a playlist that we will share with this episode, and
Speaker 2: a lot of it is now talking about trans and
Speaker 2: gender nonconforming kids. And you know, it's amazing to me.
Speaker 2: It's just amazing to me because a lot of the
Speaker 2: debate is around what is age appropriate, and it's like, oh,
Speaker 2: come on, because kids are so resilient. And you know,
Speaker 2: I say often, our real fight is that we are real.
Speaker 2: That's that's our biggest you know, because everyone coming against
Speaker 2: us with religion and politics is that's their premise that
Speaker 2: we don't really exist, we don't know ourselves, and they
Speaker 2: know us better. And there's all this music coming out
Speaker 2: for children that just says you're real, you're real, and
Speaker 2: you play it. There's some great stuff out.
Speaker 1: There I got to jump into and because truly I
Speaker 1: point that's what I do, that's my job, and that's
Speaker 1: I pointed things that some incredible people have created. And
Speaker 1: the fact is, if if there were not a market
Speaker 1: for this music, and that market is we are everywhere,
Speaker 1: trans families, every kid, every five year old, no a
Speaker 1: trans kid or no someone or no. They may not
Speaker 1: know the words for it yet, but they're just okay,
Speaker 1: it's you know, another person, it's part of who you are.
Speaker 1: And kids are so accepting. And the fact is, these
Speaker 1: are wonderful musicians who are singing from their hearts and
Speaker 1: you know, truly creating from their hearts. But also because
Speaker 1: they say, there's many more of us out there, there's
Speaker 1: many more parents of trans kids and allies of trans kids,
Speaker 1: and teachers and kids of trans people who all operate
Speaker 1: together and vote please us, But who exist? You know,
Speaker 1: Billy Tipton, look them up. Okay, Billy Tipton and if
Speaker 1: you're scratching your head, learn your history.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, there you go.
Speaker 3: And we need to recognize that, you know, just because
Speaker 3: we try to wrap kids' brains in bubble wrap, that
Speaker 3: does not make them stupid. You know, they can see,
Speaker 3: they can hear, they know what's going on around them.
Speaker 1: So.
Speaker 2: They do.
Speaker 1: And another element of that to two turls is and
Speaker 1: this is like, there's an old joke about the kid
Speaker 1: who says to his you know parents, where did they
Speaker 1: come from? And they go into a whole song and
Speaker 1: dance explaining reproduction and science and blah blah, and all
Speaker 1: they want to know is so, you know, Joey said
Speaker 1: he's from Hoboken. I want you know where from? You know,
Speaker 1: Lily on Modern Family, my parents are gay, so I'm gay.
Speaker 1: She announced, I'm gay. You know it. It's like there's
Speaker 1: they're so you can you can send out a message
Speaker 1: without hitting kids and people over the head with it, right,
Speaker 1: and the whole Oh honey, this is how you're supposed
Speaker 1: to think. Genre of kids music, which thankfully has kind
Speaker 1: of gone by the wayside long ago, has been replaced
Speaker 1: and energized by this energy of more energy of real life,
Speaker 1: and you see it reflected in a lot of subject matter,
Speaker 1: including racial equality and issues of you know, issues of
Speaker 1: things that are being shut down all over the Oh
Speaker 1: you were attempted to be shut down. But you can't.
Speaker 1: You know, you can't stop the beat you.
Speaker 3: Get out of my head, lady.
Speaker 1: It always gets back to show tunes.
Speaker 2: It always does, it really does, you know. In through
Speaker 2: the pandemic, we actually so our bar was closed because
Speaker 2: normally when you're what, you know, your show is on
Speaker 2: at seven thirty our time or seven to eight our time,
Speaker 2: so we would be in the bar and we would
Speaker 2: be working, and you know everybody wanted to watch Jeopardy,
Speaker 2: right yeah, yeah, But during the pandemic, but we were
Speaker 2: regular listeners, and you know, I don't know how many
Speaker 2: times how many songs came out of what was going
Speaker 2: on at the moment, you know, with the you know,
Speaker 2: the protests and all of that, like say their names Yes,
Speaker 2: which made me.
Speaker 3: I was sitting on the couch sobby he was because
Speaker 3: that song was so perfect in every way.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I've learned to just put Shazam on auto when Kids
Speaker 3: Corner is on because because I get tired of picking
Speaker 3: up my phone every time I hear a song going
Speaker 3: what's that?
Speaker 2: What's that? What's that?
Speaker 1: And by the way, on the air, exactly exactly working.
Speaker 3: But you know you're my my media guru. Anyway, that's
Speaker 3: just another aspect of it. It's like, Wow, this is
Speaker 3: kid's music. Wow, I'm gonna put this on my playlist.
Speaker 2: Wow, you know.
Speaker 1: And I get to point at it. I get to
Speaker 1: point to the real world being done by and and
Speaker 1: I have to I have to give a shout out
Speaker 1: right now to radio we w EE and it's uncle Devin,
Speaker 1: who is a brilliant drummer and radio person who created
Speaker 1: a radio show on the pacifica station out of Washington,
Speaker 1: and we can we can address this today or even
Speaker 1: do another whole thing on this about the how white
Speaker 1: The Grammys were a few years ago at a time
Speaker 1: when a lot of music was being created by people
Speaker 1: of color about their own experience historically, and also then
Speaker 1: Black Lives Matters, you know, came to the streets where
Speaker 1: people came together in the streets to address some of this,
Speaker 1: and and the Grammys, their nominations in the kid Music
Speaker 1: category did not reflect the brilliance of the music being
Speaker 1: made that year, right, It was basically, uh, it was
Speaker 1: basically a bunch of white people at a time when
Speaker 1: some of the most brilliant music I have ever heard
Speaker 1: it almost forty years of kids music was being created
Speaker 1: by a couple of artists saw Paul Piers Freelan just
Speaker 1: you know, brilliant, brilliant stuff, and Hugue there's the name,
Speaker 1: and a lot of artists got to another and said,
Speaker 1: way to you know, white and black, you know, people
Speaker 1: of color and white said hey, wait a minute, here's
Speaker 1: all this great stuff, and we know it's being made
Speaker 1: by a real variety of people. How come it's not
Speaker 1: being reflected in the thing that's supposed to reflect the
Speaker 1: best of our industry. Right now, we can do a
Speaker 1: whole thing about how I do not actually believe the
Speaker 1: Grammys to reflect the best of our industry, and blah
Speaker 1: blah blah, they don't ask me, right, But and the
Speaker 1: good work the Grammys do and and truly do, which
Speaker 1: has now been magnified because as more people of color
Speaker 1: have entered the Grammy system and have increased the you know,
Speaker 1: the representation of these songs of power, of power and
Speaker 1: empowerment and songs that you know, black women in history uh,
Speaker 1: black people created stem these are actual songs, by the way. Up.
Speaker 1: I'll give you the playlist, you know. And Uncle Devin
Speaker 1: out of Radio Wei and you can find it online.
Speaker 1: And we love we love Uncle Devin that he plays
Speaker 1: everything I play. I play the music. I like he
Speaker 1: plays such a rich mix of music for kids of
Speaker 1: color because and I know you have heard me say this,
Speaker 1: black people got money now, and we have to stop
Speaker 1: approaching people of color like they're the poor relations.
Speaker 2: Right right right, right right, because.
Speaker 1: Too much media, you know, just it just does all right.
Speaker 2: I think this was the first year when when when
Speaker 2: the Grammy nominations were announced in the in the kids category,
Speaker 2: that you said, I'm good with whoever wins.
Speaker 1: Yes, I really was. And I wasn't just saying that
Speaker 1: to be nice, right.
Speaker 2: I know it was us. I mean you wouldn't have
Speaker 2: been there.
Speaker 1: You would have just said, well really, you know.
Speaker 2: But you had said it's come so far quickly.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it really did, and and it and it's not.
Speaker 1: I don't Also, I don't want to make a people.
Speaker 1: I don't want to make it sound like people who
Speaker 1: have joined this genre who are not white, you know,
Speaker 1: white guys with guitars we've always been white guys with guitarists.
Speaker 1: You know, I don't want to make it sound like
Speaker 1: they're just you know, all doing this hit you over
Speaker 1: the head with you know, politics and history and and
Speaker 1: all of that. There's this rich, just you know, mosaic
Speaker 1: that the music that we are being just we are
Speaker 1: being enriched. Fine, yes, and just so just check out
Speaker 1: artists who got together the All One Tribe Collective by
Speaker 1: Aaron Nigel Smith and I you know, I'm not I'm
Speaker 1: go find it One Tribe Collective like there are well
Speaker 1: and just as the Songs for Trans and Binary Kids collection,
Speaker 1: there are artists who are putting together or empowering collections
Speaker 1: of these songs and of these messages that are available
Speaker 1: in a way directly to kids and families like they
Speaker 1: never have been before. And by supporting the artists directly,
Speaker 1: you know, by their CDs. Yeah you don't have a
Speaker 1: CD player, Go find one, Go ask Grandma for a
Speaker 1: CD player. Buy there there online stuff by they can
Speaker 1: market and sell directly to their audience that that needs
Speaker 1: it and can benefit most from it.
Speaker 2: Oh yes, and I think you know, as the pendulum
Speaker 2: swings politically and right now, we're we're you know, we're
Speaker 2: just being inundated with with politics. I think the pendulum
Speaker 2: with the arts always swings, you know, kind of in
Speaker 2: the opposite direction to say, we're all still here too. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: we're all still here, and we're all looking at the
Speaker 2: world that you are and saying, you know, we have
Speaker 2: to respond. And I just think it's incredible that these
Speaker 2: things exist. I mean, none of this existed when we
Speaker 2: were kids, none of it. No, no, And now it's
Speaker 2: pretty amazing.
Speaker 1: You and I have to you know, Ella Jenkins and
Speaker 1: Pete Seeger and Tom Paxton. I mean, there are giants
Speaker 1: upon whose you know, shoulders I stand of the musical community.
Speaker 1: But at the same time, and if I may take
Speaker 1: it back to a certain name we've conjured already. The
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty one Grammy Award nominees included Soup Be Sales
Speaker 1: for The Soupy Sales Show and Leonard Bernstein for some
Speaker 1: version of The Young People's Guide to the Orchestra that
Speaker 1: no real kids ever listened to, And oh guess who won.
Speaker 1: So the Grammys have never exactly been about what real
Speaker 1: kids listened to, and now it is.
Speaker 2: Right, that's great, that's amazing. That's the difference.
Speaker 1: I worked him in like at the halfway point you did.
Speaker 2: I'm impressed.
Speaker 3: It's like a skilled ye.
Speaker 1: Like more like a vocation.
Speaker 2: But okay, you I've read something that I did not
Speaker 2: know that when you did get started at WBA, I
Speaker 2: as a volunteer on the floor in nineteen seventy nine.
Speaker 2: It was in response two three Mile Island, Three Mile Island,
Speaker 2: I never knew that.
Speaker 1: Okay, So my friend Larry Lee there there. I was
Speaker 1: an orphan living in Manhattan. Yes, but my friend Larry Lee,
Speaker 1: who was one of the kids who hung out at
Speaker 1: Channel five. But you know, when Soupy Sales did his
Speaker 1: show there and who's very political, and it was a
Speaker 1: big environmental activist, three Mile Island happened and he told
Speaker 1: me about demonstrations that were happening, and he said, and
Speaker 1: you know, if you really want information, you should listen
Speaker 1: to you know, you should turn on w BAI. And
Speaker 1: I kind of vaguely knew kind of about w BAI,
Speaker 1: but I listened to. I hated talk radio because my
Speaker 1: father listened to talk radio, and anything big Tom you know,
Speaker 1: had anything to do with I wanted nothing to do with.
Speaker 1: But I was forced to listen to, like Bob Brant
Speaker 1: and Edin Pegeen Fitzgerald and then like people just yammering
Speaker 1: on AM radio in the early sixties. And it wasn't
Speaker 1: all Jeane Shepherd, believe me, and but it was like
Speaker 1: and I turned it on, I was like, wait a minute.
Speaker 1: People are talking to me, and smart people are talking
Speaker 1: to me, and sometimes stupid people are talking to me,
Speaker 1: and or smart people are saying stupid funny things. And
Speaker 1: and I started volunteering answering phone and they're always looking
Speaker 1: for volunteers. And I started answering phones and I said, oh, honey,
Speaker 1: I'm home. I walked in and basically said, honey, I'm home.
Speaker 1: I like what And I found a bunch of kindred
Speaker 1: spirits which if which if you've ever met them, could
Speaker 1: be for good or bad. Well, power of the medium
Speaker 1: of radio, the power of that solely audio medium, and
Speaker 1: what you could do with it, and even if it's
Speaker 1: just and with me, as you know, it all evolves
Speaker 1: around me. But I felt so good and it was
Speaker 1: what it brought to me by being on the radio,
Speaker 1: more than oh, look at what I can create year
Speaker 1: what wonders like? And I happened to just be really
Speaker 1: good at it, you know, at talking to people in
Speaker 1: the middle of the night nice.
Speaker 2: And didn't somebody walk out at w n y C.
Speaker 1: What didn't is considered okay. So I okay. I was
Speaker 1: at w b A I and I wanted to make money,
Speaker 1: and you put in the one thing people kept telling
Speaker 1: me in commercial radio was if you want to make money,
Speaker 1: go move somewhere and come back to New York. And
Speaker 1: I never do things halfway. So I moved to California,
Speaker 1: worked in a couple of commercial like legendary commercial stations
Speaker 1: actually kfat look it up, a big book on it,
Speaker 1: and then came back to New York and I got
Speaker 1: a job as a board operator, you know, running the
Speaker 1: as an engineer at w n y C, the public
Speaker 1: radio station in New York City, and I was I
Speaker 1: came back and right away got a show back at BAI.
Speaker 1: By the way I was, you know, it was still
Speaker 1: you know, Hail the Conquering Year. I would when I
Speaker 1: came back and figured out more how to talk to people.
Speaker 1: But and I was boardopping a show called Senior Edition,
Speaker 1: and I was hired by and he is now dead.
Speaker 1: And I believe as I was at Betty Davis, who said,
Speaker 1: I do not speak, I only say good things about
Speaker 1: the dead, So he's dead good. His name was Larry Miller,
Speaker 1: and he was the single worst human being I have
Speaker 1: ever worked for in my entire life. And I loaded
Speaker 1: boxes in the Lipton factory in Santa Cruz, California. So
Speaker 1: I put bugs out of cashoes out of plans of cashews.
Speaker 1: And it was not as said Miller and get and
Speaker 1: the thing with the board at w n y C
Speaker 1: was I sat in the room with Marty Wayne, the
Speaker 1: lovely old man who was doing senior edition. I was
Speaker 1: in the room with them. I'm like just a few
Speaker 1: feet away from him, live in the room, and I
Speaker 1: would play the wrong some stupid thing. I'd push the
Speaker 1: wrong button because I used to be really good at
Speaker 1: technical stuff. I am not any Morris. I believe you,
Speaker 1: as Charles, were really ascertaining when I bring my laptop
Speaker 1: over to him, just saying, here, show me what to do.
Speaker 1: I don't know anyway, lap for all you know, this person,
Speaker 1: whose name I will not say again, it was just
Speaker 1: a terrible human being. But he started he had a
Speaker 1: dream of doing a call in show for kids, and
Speaker 1: he wanted to call it Small Things Considered, and he
Speaker 1: partnered with a woman named Barbara Rosen, whose husband was
Speaker 1: one of the one of the hostages in Iran, and
Speaker 1: it was a three was it three hours? My god?
Speaker 1: It could have been, but they had they used like
Speaker 1: they had and they ran Michael JACKSON'SDT recording. They ran
Speaker 1: a lot of recorded programming from NPR, but it was
Speaker 1: a block of children's programming and part of it was Collins.
Speaker 1: And because he was such a mean human beings Sammy, Sammy, Sammy, Well,
Speaker 1: she gets angry, very angry about about when I talk
Speaker 1: about this person, so as you can hear. And so
Speaker 1: he made me do the best of Small Things Considered,
Speaker 1: a shortened version that ran on Saturdays. Was this part
Speaker 1: of my job when I got hired, No, but I
Speaker 1: had to do it. So I got to know the
Speaker 1: rhythm and everything of this stupid show that he and
Speaker 1: this woman did, and I got to know the library
Speaker 1: of me, and I got to know, you know, just everything.
Speaker 1: And one day I'm sitting there and part of my
Speaker 1: job too, was babysitting tape that back when they had tapes,
Speaker 1: and I was babysitting whatever tape it was of I
Speaker 1: think All Things Considered that you know, came in on
Speaker 1: a reel to reel and to Dreux and Barbara Rosen
Speaker 1: stormed into the studio that I'm in and started pulling
Speaker 1: records and started loading them into bags, and you know,
Speaker 1: not my records, so you know, and I haven't picked
Speaker 1: through them yet to take home and play on BAI,
Speaker 1: So I don't know what'sle with thought. And he's muttering like,
Speaker 1: try to do this without us, and blah blah blah,
Speaker 1: and they they walk out. Now, Small Things Considered was
Speaker 1: supposed to come on live in an hour and a half,
Speaker 1: and truly an hour and a half from that moment,
Speaker 1: and I'm just in and the tapes are running that
Speaker 1: I got nothing to do except watch this tape make
Speaker 1: sure we don't go off the air once again. I
Speaker 1: have an easy job and four people in suits and
Speaker 1: Mary Nichols, the then general manager of w n y C,
Speaker 1: who eventually fired me, uh well, laid me off and
Speaker 1: is now dead. Uh. They came in and one of
Speaker 1: them said we need you to help us out, and
Speaker 1: I said, uh huh and explained, well, you know, they
Speaker 1: walked off, and there's this live kids show that's about
Speaker 1: to I said, you let me talk. I'll do anything
Speaker 1: you want. And that was how me on Small Things
Speaker 1: Considered was born. And halfway through I said to Larry
Speaker 1: or Fheley, who is a lovely man, who was my partner,
Speaker 1: who became my partner on Small Things Considered, who was
Speaker 1: the program director at w n y S. Was that
Speaker 1: then I said to halfway through it, I said I
Speaker 1: want to do this, and I got the job and
Speaker 1: Small Things Considered, which won its own Peabody Award.
Speaker 2: Mm hmmm.
Speaker 1: Beget a national show called Kids America where they brought
Speaker 1: in all suddenly they had a whole lot of money
Speaker 1: and to pay everybody but you know me, And then
Speaker 1: we got canceled on Christmas Eve nineteen eighty seven, and
Speaker 1: Kids Corner started January fourth, nineteen eighty eight. Okay, out
Speaker 1: of all that, find something, Yeah, that all saga.
Speaker 2: Where I was going, And I love that story. It's
Speaker 2: you know, it's the serendipity of it all. Yes, and
Speaker 2: you know, but the fact that you came to radio
Speaker 2: as a result of a tragedy and all of these
Speaker 2: things happened as a result. It's like once you're where
Speaker 2: you belong and you're kind of aligning with just what
Speaker 2: you're here to do, kind of you know. I mean,
Speaker 2: really that's your story. Those things all happened, and then.
Speaker 1: You figure out who you are, and kids figure out
Speaker 1: who they are. You know, some some of them do like,
Speaker 1: you know, really young. But once you figure out, you know,
Speaker 1: it's true. It's like I, you know, once that thunderbolt
Speaker 1: hits there it is and falling into this. I mean,
Speaker 1: I was really good at radio, and I was really
Speaker 1: you know, I did you know I could still do it,
Speaker 1: you know, if things go south here, I could still
Speaker 1: do rock n roll, you know, Jock and all of that.
Speaker 1: But the kids thing is something that really stuck.
Speaker 2: Well, I said to you, and I you know, I
Speaker 2: remember texting you after well while it was on because
Speaker 2: it was taped for International Women's Day. It was just
Speaker 2: the first time I had ever heard you not doing
Speaker 2: your kids show, and it was brilliant. The music you curated,
Speaker 2: it was the story you told. I was like, of course,
Speaker 2: she can do this, she can do anything on the radio.
Speaker 2: But it really was. It was great. It was great.
Speaker 1: I had so much fun to do with that. Oh
Speaker 1: I played Julie Brown. Yeah, I like him big and stupid.
Speaker 1: How could it not be great?
Speaker 2: It was so much fun and just the mix of
Speaker 2: music and the knowledge that you brought, Like, you know,
Speaker 2: it's really the crux of what XPN is about, and
Speaker 2: it's what you do with kids music. And I'm just
Speaker 2: used to that. But I was like, well, damn well,
Speaker 2: damn right.
Speaker 1: I come from and if I may start bringing him
Speaker 1: up a little bit, my media dad, my professional dad,
Speaker 1: in many ways, my second personal dad was Soupy Sales. Now,
Speaker 1: when you read up on the life of Soupy Sales,
Speaker 1: so many things in his life happened because it was
Speaker 1: just job. I still a joke. Was it was a job?
Speaker 1: And why did you play your why did you bring
Speaker 1: in your jazz music collection to use on your show?
Speaker 1: That's all I had. I didn't have any money. So
Speaker 1: and much like Soupy give this improvisational you know, you
Speaker 1: gotta be ready because it's a job, and you know,
Speaker 1: just to have be ready at any moment for anything,
Speaker 1: and you know kind of that that has paid off.
Speaker 1: Also a line from Funny Girl, which is the moment
Speaker 1: when Barbara streisand And in this version is asked you
Speaker 1: can roller skate, can't you? And she says can I
Speaker 1: roll or skate. It's basically how you have to approach everything.
Speaker 1: It's a job. But I learned to be, you know,
Speaker 1: quick on my feet, which I am not otherwise, you know,
Speaker 1: because I believe of and seeing and his influence and
Speaker 1: a lot of him.
Speaker 2: Well, you know, And I realized as I was thinking
Speaker 2: about this interview, part of what I did as a
Speaker 2: parent was, you know, just keep things routine, keep things going,
Speaker 2: because you know, my kids went through a lot of
Speaker 2: funerals and they were young, and but it was, yes,
Speaker 2: we're really sad. Yes this is hard, and I need
Speaker 2: you to do your homework, you know what I mean,
Speaker 2: and we're going to do it together. And it was
Speaker 2: just that. And bedtime is still nine point thirty. And
Speaker 2: that's because there's comfort in that for kids to have
Speaker 2: that routine.
Speaker 1: Yes, a bedtime, well, bedtime of what.
Speaker 2: Know, I think, knowing what to expect, I always.
Speaker 1: Remember Also again here we back back to my childhood grandmother.
Speaker 1: I never went to sleep before the eleven o'clock news
Speaker 1: was over, and I never asked about anything. So there
Speaker 1: were gorillas fighting us, Yeah, in Vietnam. Gorilla's mine view.
Speaker 2: I know exactly what you're talking about because I did Florida.
Speaker 1: Every year we drove to Florida on vacation. I started
Speaker 1: sleeping under the covers with the covers pulled over my
Speaker 1: head because Fidel Castro was going to burst into our
Speaker 1: motel room at the Sahara Motel in Miami Beach, because
Speaker 1: nobody ever and when also when I did have a
Speaker 1: reaction to something like a house blew up in the
Speaker 1: housing development next to ours blew up, and I got
Speaker 1: really scared of the stove to the point was like,
Speaker 1: I wouldn't go in the room if the if the
Speaker 1: flame of the stove was on. And I love my mother,
Speaker 1: and please do not judge her, only so many worse
Speaker 1: things to judge her by. But she finally had enough
Speaker 1: really quickly, and she's like, oh, you jack ass, come
Speaker 1: And she just gave me no choice but to get
Speaker 1: over it, right, which, honestly, when you get when you
Speaker 1: have no other choices, and so bad because you could
Speaker 1: do kind of learn to move on.
Speaker 2: Yeah, where I was trying to go, I'm you.
Speaker 1: Never will get a chance to go anywhere. High editor,
Speaker 1: good luck.
Speaker 2: You. You you stayed on the radio through the pandemic. Yeah,
Speaker 2: talking to kids, and I I told I wanted you
Speaker 2: to have a third Peabody for that period of time.
Speaker 2: Just talk about that, talk about because you've really had
Speaker 2: some interesting new conversations and you made it kind of
Speaker 2: okay for things to be so weird.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, and.
Speaker 2: I'm thinking Halloween in particular. But the whole thing you
Speaker 2: talked about, you know, Okay, it's going to be different
Speaker 2: this year. But oh, tell me what you did, or
Speaker 2: tell me what your parents did.
Speaker 1: Beauty of live radio is just you live in the moment.
Speaker 1: Then you go yeah, yeah, the thing and we're all
Speaker 1: still going through this. Let's read about this is all
Speaker 1: still a process while we're as a community, as a society,
Speaker 1: you're all going through it. This may be the biggest
Speaker 1: thing ever in this generation's lives. This may be the
Speaker 1: molding thing of this generation of children, the pandemic kids,
Speaker 1: and how this is the they haven't known anything else, right,
Speaker 1: and we know that now because it lasted for so long.
Speaker 1: I don't know why we immediately when the announcement was
Speaker 1: made that you know, everything was going to shut down,
Speaker 1: our immediate response was, Okay, well we're going to stay
Speaker 1: live two days a week, where we're going to maintain
Speaker 1: that connection and primarily because it was live and something
Speaker 1: you could count on and something regular and as normal
Speaker 1: as could be in a completely abnormal, insane time. And
Speaker 1: I think it is vital for us as grown ups,
Speaker 1: like don't scare kids. But at the same time, we
Speaker 1: all went through this together, and yeah, your life really
Speaker 1: did change many times in an awful, awful way. And
Speaker 1: not seeing your grandmother, not being with people you love,
Speaker 1: not getting to go to the games that are really
Speaker 1: important to you, or graduate she's not again, she's not
Speaker 1: happy with this, that this was something we all lived
Speaker 1: through together and as parents found their way through whatever.
Speaker 1: This is going to be the most the most flower
Speaker 1: the most powerless, and yet most flexible creatures are kids.
Speaker 1: So you tell them, Okay, you're gonna learn from this. Now,
Speaker 1: we're gonna make this happen in this and oh, by
Speaker 1: the way, parents who have no idea what you're doing,
Speaker 1: we can bring in a few resources for you here
Speaker 1: on the radio that maybe you could go check out.
Speaker 1: It's a tiny bit, but it's what we do. You know.
Speaker 1: Just let's maintain something. Let's talk about the rainbows that
Speaker 1: I'm seeing on my walk with Tammy. Let's talk about
Speaker 1: the rainbows I'm seeing, you know, people make in windows,
Speaker 1: and you know, they were I would share projects that
Speaker 1: people were coming up with as they emerged more. God,
Speaker 1: I know we were really good. But again I do
Speaker 1: like it really.
Speaker 2: And you know, the thing I remember is just you know,
Speaker 2: kind of talking about the creativity like this, this is
Speaker 2: very different, but it doesn't it doesn't have to be bad.
Speaker 2: So you know, yeah, we're going to be home and
Speaker 2: it's going to be like maybe we are having a
Speaker 2: zoom call with our grandmother and you know, you talk
Speaker 2: to kids about that, like how what's different about birthdays?
Speaker 1: Now?
Speaker 2: How do you know what's different? And what did you do?
Speaker 1: And one of the things that now it's coming back
Speaker 1: to me, I thought it was really important to validate
Speaker 1: truth that I'm learning the new way of living, and yeah,
Speaker 1: we can get through this, you know. But you know,
Speaker 1: pandemics are easy. Comedy is hard, right, you know, Like, really,
Speaker 1: we can only lay so much doom and gloom while
Speaker 1: we are in the middle of a doom and gloom situation.
Speaker 1: We can only lay so much on kids without expecting
Speaker 1: them to act out, to snap a little. So like
Speaker 1: there's a balance that every grown up has to maintain
Speaker 1: of I am scared to death. I don't want to
Speaker 1: scare you to death. That we all have to have
Speaker 1: had to learn to maintain. And part of it, I
Speaker 1: hope is opening up more dialogues in families with parents
Speaker 1: and kids, because I think that is one of the
Speaker 1: things that came out is that a lot of parents
Speaker 1: did have more opportunities to form whome like new relationship
Speaker 1: you know, you know what I mean, a whole new
Speaker 1: level of their relationships.
Speaker 2: Well that suddenly everyone was home. Yeah, yeah, yeah, suddenly
Speaker 2: everyone was home, and it really did open up. I
Speaker 2: think a lot of conversations, uh, you know, we of
Speaker 2: course they think we're just I don't know, it's a trend,
Speaker 2: but I mean there's a real there's a reality to
Speaker 2: the trans community growing in that a whole bunch of
Speaker 2: adult humans, you know, that suddenly had nothing but time
Speaker 2: said I can't go on like this anymore. I'm not busy,
Speaker 2: I'm working at home, I'm sitting with myself. And I
Speaker 2: think that that was true for a lot of families,
Speaker 2: and I'm hoping, you know, I hope the overall effect
Speaker 2: was positive. You know, we talked about some of the
Speaker 2: situations where if it was tough, it got tougher where
Speaker 2: the kids didn't have the outlet of school. But overall,
Speaker 2: I think, you know, we're having different and better conversations.
Speaker 2: What I love about your show and the way that
Speaker 2: you have approached things over the years is your reality based. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I mean, like you didn't there was no conversation about well,
Speaker 2: maybe don't wear a mask. You have played the song
Speaker 2: wear your Mask, you know, like, like, no, we follow science,
Speaker 2: We talked to scientists and you know that's right now,
Speaker 2: that's so refreshing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is. There's a lot of for not being
Speaker 1: an actual educator at the time when education is very
Speaker 1: much under attack. There's a lot to be said for
Speaker 1: being an enhancement to education and resource well, right.
Speaker 2: And how do we even I don't even know how
Speaker 2: we talk to teachers. We know that they're leaving, We
Speaker 2: know that they are switching professions left right, especially in
Speaker 2: places like Florida. Oh yeah, I wouldn't want the job
Speaker 2: nor now exactly.
Speaker 1: And on top of everything else, you know, I think
Speaker 1: it's one of the bravest things in the world to
Speaker 1: be a parent who sends your kid to school every day.
Speaker 1: You've got to be scared to death teacher and to
Speaker 1: one minute be blamed for the degradation of the fall
Speaker 1: of the Roman Empire, you know, and then a week later, Oh,
Speaker 1: we're going to teach you. We're gonna give you a gun,
Speaker 1: and you're gonna be you know, you're gonna be in
Speaker 1: charge of keeping your kids alive. No, no, no, no, no. Yeah.
Speaker 3: I saw TikTok and the person was like, you don't
Speaker 3: even trust teachers with books?
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you know, you whine and complain about teachers,
Speaker 1: and you know you you, but you stick your your kids.
Speaker 1: They're they're in charge of your kids learning things that
Speaker 1: probably you should be to your basic humanity, you should
Speaker 1: probably be teaching them at home very often. Right, you
Speaker 1: get me started, and I have wonderful parrots to listen
Speaker 1: to me.
Speaker 2: You do you do, and a lot of them you've
Speaker 2: helped raise.
Speaker 1: Yes, what poisoning young line since nineteen eighty eight? Do
Speaker 1: a T shirt that says that, I was.
Speaker 3: Just gonna say that would be a good shirt.
Speaker 1: I'd wear that. Oh, I'd wear that.
Speaker 2: Crowd Back when we used to spend a lot more
Speaker 2: time in restaurants and even in the bar that we owned,
Speaker 2: there were very few times that someone didn't approach our
Speaker 2: table and say, excuse me, I'm so sorry to interrupt,
Speaker 2: but you're Kathy O'Connell, because they just would hear you
Speaker 2: and then I'll never We were sitting at the bar
Speaker 2: we owned and it was an open mic night and
Speaker 2: this guy got up and he's like, I'm sorry, but
Speaker 2: is Kathy O'Connell here? And then he'd spent you know,
Speaker 2: the first five minutes of his time talking about I
Speaker 2: called in and I won a prize once and it
Speaker 2: just changed my life. And it was like, but you
Speaker 2: know that used to car all the time, all the time,
Speaker 2: back in the days when a little more normal when I.
Speaker 1: Was out and about when I used to go out.
Speaker 3: In the long ago time.
Speaker 1: And that's the thing, one of the one of the
Speaker 1: and I I hate that I finally have broken down
Speaker 1: in doing this, but one of the phrases I have
Speaker 1: tried to banish from my life and ideas that I
Speaker 1: sadly have tried to banish from my life is back
Speaker 1: to normal because it will never be what it was before.
Speaker 1: You know, the I see that the the open Asian
Speaker 1: food bar at Wagbans is again open like a salad
Speaker 1: bar and I'm like, oh, well, how long is that
Speaker 1: going to last? Basic changes that have happened in our lives,
Speaker 1: that whatever, and it's a chance to maybe do it
Speaker 1: better this time. Right.
Speaker 3: I was going to say, there's a lot of things
Speaker 3: that we came to terms with that we realized weren't
Speaker 3: really that great before.
Speaker 2: There's no real need to go back to that. Yeah,
Speaker 2: you know, yeah, hugging arbitrary, hugging.
Speaker 3: The little mini power struggled. That is a handshake.
Speaker 2: We love hugs among people we love. But you know,
Speaker 2: maybe maybe it was out of control. Yeah, maybe it was.
Speaker 1: And I'm not going to tell any tales out of school,
Speaker 1: but there was a recent professional gathering at a place
Speaker 1: I am familiar with. Then I went to a party
Speaker 1: and people are are hugging me for really you know,
Speaker 1: I know, I'm adorable, and these you were like, you know,
Speaker 1: never mind, don't hug I'm elderly. Okay, I'll put that
Speaker 1: on a loop. By the way, justly I thought it
Speaker 1: was I thought it was on a loop. Well, no,
Speaker 1: you thought I was just loopy. Okay, you know, hey,
Speaker 1: this is your idea.
Speaker 2: It was You're right, it was it was. I said,
Speaker 2: you know, I had the thought. What brought me the
Speaker 2: thought was I thought of mister Rogers, because I really
Speaker 2: was struggling with us. We were about to record, and
Speaker 2: I'm like, look to the helpers, look to the helpers.
Speaker 2: And you've been a helper for a very long time,
Speaker 2: and you do, I think responsibly and well, use the
Speaker 2: familiarity you have with children to talk about some difficult topics,
Speaker 2: to bring certain things to light, and to provide a
Speaker 2: certain continuity. And yeah, I do. I am asking for
Speaker 2: your wisdom just overall in talking to these parents who
Speaker 2: are frightened, these teachers who have had it and are frightened,
Speaker 2: and these kids. Because you know when it when this
Speaker 2: kind of scary stuff reaches a classroom, don't I don't
Speaker 2: think it gets more in then that that's supposed to
Speaker 2: be a safe space.
Speaker 1: And the thing is, we all live with the reality
Speaker 1: that now there really is no safe space. We each
Speaker 1: live in it in our own way and whatever you know,
Speaker 1: gathering or in whatever way right, we have to create
Speaker 1: our own safe spaces because there are fewer and fewer
Speaker 1: of them going forward. And that is one of the
Speaker 1: things that you know, not so much the pandemic, but
Speaker 1: just real life has has just you know, has changed.
Speaker 1: You know, you walk into a room, you look for
Speaker 1: the exit sign. Now kids have to live with that.
Speaker 1: And this is the thing. There's a line again show Tunes.
Speaker 1: There's a line from in the in the Heights where
Speaker 1: Kevin says to his daughter, So this is where you
Speaker 1: do better than me because you can see a future
Speaker 1: that I can't. And kids still can see a future.
Speaker 1: You're working basically with somebody who you know is all future,
Speaker 1: but it's getting less and less unlikely and out of reach.
Speaker 1: And if you're you know, powerless to begin with, and
Speaker 1: the great dreams that you heard here adults talk about
Speaker 1: are just non existent for you. Hopefully you're going to
Speaker 1: start crafting your own dreams and places to make those
Speaker 1: dreams come true safely. And I'm not saying there should
Speaker 1: be a revolution of young people, but there is going
Speaker 1: to be. They will take over and the seeds that
Speaker 1: we are planting in talking to them and giving them information.
Speaker 1: And there used to be, oh god, what was it called?
Speaker 1: There was an approach to education which was all about
Speaker 1: problem solving and oh what was it? Cognitive learning? There
Speaker 1: was a phrase to it. And of course, because I
Speaker 1: am not an educator, I can't come up with it,
Speaker 1: and it's like that went out the window. And the
Speaker 1: next thing I know, natural selection is being taught in
Speaker 1: a science class at Arkansas as science. Right. So you
Speaker 1: know the thing is they're gonna find out that you're
Speaker 1: lying to them and it's not gonna be pretty.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So you know, how about talking with them and finding out,
Speaker 1: you know, what is going on and where you can
Speaker 1: find common ground to work for whatever you know tomorrow
Speaker 1: is left?
Speaker 2: Yeah? How important is history to you?
Speaker 1: How important? What?
Speaker 2: How important is the teaching of history?
Speaker 1: Oh? Vital vital? The most important thing to learn is
Speaker 1: actual history. Howard's inn should be taught in every classroom.
Speaker 1: There is a magazine series I think it's for kids,
Speaker 1: actual Well it's for families called hard History, okay, and
Speaker 1: looking at real history. Tulsa massacre. Yeah, you know, suffragettes
Speaker 1: getting beaten Black suffragettes? Who are they? You know the
Speaker 1: reality of what happened historically, just so we can go
Speaker 1: forward and make sure it doesn't happen again or happens
Speaker 1: in a different way. You know, triangle shirt waste, factory
Speaker 1: fire made a difference. Right Now, everything gets done overseas
Speaker 1: where we have no control over workers, you know, situations,
Speaker 1: so we have to kind of craft our reality going forward.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, speaking of history.
Speaker 1: Oh, I.
Speaker 2: Said, I wanted to end this on a good note
Speaker 2: because it's such it's so much fun. Your biggest inspiration,
Speaker 2: Let's talk.
Speaker 1: About him, Let's talk about him. So I turned on
Speaker 1: the TV one day nineteen sixty four and my life
Speaker 1: changed because there was a guy named Soupy Sales on TV.
Speaker 1: And the first joke I remember was somebody said to him,
Speaker 1: mister s don't do, don't don't speak, mister Sales, don't
Speaker 1: to do. The walls have ears, And there was a
Speaker 1: pan of a wall and it was covered with the ears,
Speaker 1: and I thought it was the funniest thing I ever
Speaker 1: saw in my life. And he did reference and he
Speaker 1: had a big old dog grunted at him who he
Speaker 1: directed with. But at the same time, he looked directly
Speaker 1: at the camera and talked to me in a way
Speaker 1: that I mean. Other kids show hosts were great, Sunny Fox,
Speaker 1: Chuck McCann, Sandy, Sharry Lewis, But not where Okay, you
Speaker 1: know you are talking to Ah. I am ready to
Speaker 1: follow you wherever. And so Soupy Sales was on TV
Speaker 1: in New York from nineteen sixty four to nineteen sixty
Speaker 1: six and on New Year's Eve nineteen sixty On New
Speaker 1: Year's Day nineteen sixty six, he had to work live.
Speaker 1: He was forced to work live, and he had a
Speaker 1: minute and a half to fill and he looked into
Speaker 1: the camera and he said, kids, now, I know your
Speaker 1: parents were out late last night and they're probably sleeping,
Speaker 1: and I want you to go into their room as quietly,
Speaker 1: be very quiet, and I want you to go into
Speaker 1: their wallets, your dad's wallet, your mom's purse, and take
Speaker 1: out the little green pieces of paper with quick pures
Speaker 1: of men with beards on them, and I want you
Speaker 1: to send it to Soupy Sales, and I'll send you
Speaker 1: a postcard from Puerto Rico. And he got tie in
Speaker 1: the face and that was the end of the show.
Speaker 1: He got suspended for two weeks. He got suspended for
Speaker 1: two weeks for that. No kid in America thought it
Speaker 1: was for real. And to the rest of his life,
Speaker 1: he continued to get dollar bills in the mail because
Speaker 1: I used to open his mail and find them. But
Speaker 1: while he was suspended, one of the articles about the
Speaker 1: suspension talked about the group of kids, the group of
Speaker 1: teenagers who came to the studio every day to be
Speaker 1: part of the audience of his show, and a light
Speaker 1: bulb went off on my Long Island suburban brain, and
Speaker 1: I said I could go, say watch his show. And
Speaker 1: on May twenty seventh, nineteen sixty five, Ascension Thursday, for
Speaker 1: the first time, I went to Channel five and basically
Speaker 1: hung out at the studio, saw the Soupy Sales show,
Speaker 1: came back as often as my babysitting money would let me,
Speaker 1: and basically the next five years of my life revolved.
Speaker 1: We had a group of kids eventually, which whittled down
Speaker 1: to about five of us who built our lives basically
Speaker 1: stalking Soupy Sales, following him every where, learning how to
Speaker 1: decipher airport schedules. Now this is nineteen sixty seven, sixty eight,
Speaker 1: and we're figuring out, well, if he's going to go
Speaker 1: to LA to do the Carol Burnett show, we could
Speaker 1: go to JFK and meet him and see him. He
Speaker 1: has no part of this. He knows us, and you
Speaker 1: know we're the gang to him, but we're just like
Speaker 1: our lives were built around him. I spent the college
Speaker 1: money my grandmother had saved for me by working in
Speaker 1: a hat factory. I spent it to go to Atlanta
Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty eight with Donna Goulder to see him
Speaker 1: do Finian's Rainbow for two weeks.
Speaker 2: Nice.
Speaker 1: And then at one point I discovered a life of
Speaker 1: my own. But you know, I would find things over
Speaker 1: the years and mail them to him because I knew
Speaker 1: exactly where he lived because we are out in front
Speaker 1: of his house, right. And I reconnected with him in
Speaker 1: like about two thousand and two, And actually I reconnected
Speaker 1: with him previously, since doing the kids stuff and since
Speaker 1: having you know, news articles about me. And he did
Speaker 1: an appearance in Philly that I came out to and
Speaker 1: I gave him a bunch of my clippings and he
Speaker 1: was like, I got to see him all proud. But
Speaker 1: and again, editor, you can you can skip to this
Speaker 1: part now. In two thousand and two, I reconnected with
Speaker 1: Supie and actually met his wife, Trudy Carson Sales, and
Speaker 1: we kind we connected on a point where they became
Speaker 1: my second parents. Yes, and I was with him when
Speaker 1: he died. I you know, I had the great gift
Speaker 1: of he had nothing to do but sit there and
Speaker 1: talk to me. He was retired, She's in the kitchen cooking,
Speaker 1: and I got the great gift of just having him
Speaker 1: talk to me and just remembering things. Maybe he was
Speaker 1: remembering correctly, maybe he wasn't, but sharing things with him,
Speaker 1: Watching Bird with him, watching the movie Bird with the
Speaker 1: man who knew all these jazz guys.
Speaker 2: Yeah, which I still have to see, like.
Speaker 1: You know, was just you know, incredible, and he it
Speaker 1: was for me. I got to see in the eyes
Speaker 1: of someone who knew me since I was thirteen years old.
Speaker 1: I got to see the proud dad look in his
Speaker 1: eyes that I never got to see from my family
Speaker 1: because they were all dead. They had no look at all.
Speaker 1: So that was one of the there were a lot
Speaker 1: of like I used to say to him all the time,
Speaker 1: thank god I wasted my life fund you, as it
Speaker 1: turned out, you know, yeah, thank god I wasted my
Speaker 1: life on him. There. So you start there and you
Speaker 1: work backwards or that's the end of that piece, Okay.
Speaker 2: And I got to meet I never got to meet Soupie,
Speaker 2: but I got to meet truly shortly after he died.
Speaker 2: And uh, and she is his mom.
Speaker 1: And you got to meet White Fang and black Tooth.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely again.
Speaker 1: And I walked into their bar that night after I
Speaker 1: had done an interview, a TV interview, so I was
Speaker 1: all made up and I wanted to show you how
Speaker 1: good I looked. And I brought white Fag and black
Speaker 1: tooth with me to the show. And there was a
Speaker 1: guy I'd never met in my life.
Speaker 2: Yes, white oh yeah, he was totally mad. I'm such
Speaker 2: a fan. Oh my god. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he took his pictures with white Fag. It was great.
Speaker 2: That's right, that's right.
Speaker 1: And I have I think because one night I was
Speaker 1: leaving Soupy and Trudy's apartment and Trudy waves a baggie
Speaker 1: at me and says, do you want to take home
Speaker 1: white thing in black tooth? And I said no, too
Speaker 1: much responsibility and he said take take and so he
Speaker 1: gave them to me.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Wow, camp. Can we talk about the project that
Speaker 2: Rowan University is working on? Can?
Speaker 1: Yes? Oh, I'd love to. I love uh my plan.
Speaker 1: It hasn't completely happened yet, but I have gotten interest
Speaker 1: from the TV and Radio department at Rowan University and
Speaker 1: they are doing something quite remarkable there. They are building
Speaker 1: a world class television history and Radio History Archive, and
Speaker 1: to that end, I know they have how do you
Speaker 1: duty collect? Because David B. And Cooley, a media writer,
Speaker 1: wonderful TV writer, is involved with it as well. And
Speaker 1: the head of the department is a colleague of an
Speaker 1: old colleague of mine for w XPN, And he was
Speaker 1: over one day and I kind of just showed him
Speaker 1: a lot of stuff I have brought home over the
Speaker 1: years from their house and stuff I bought on eBay
Speaker 1: and things like that over the years. But an enormous
Speaker 1: collection of soup, these archives and scripts and just stuff articles,
Speaker 1: just the history his his career, and I am donating
Speaker 1: a whole lot of him there so future generations, Like
Speaker 1: I have heard for so so many years, you should
Speaker 1: write a book, you should write I'm not going to
Speaker 1: write a book, but somebody is going to write a book,
Speaker 1: some that really commit they'll use me a complete, you know,
Speaker 1: book about him, and there will be all this stuff
Speaker 1: that you know that would and I'm just very happy.
Speaker 1: And and I'm also you know, like donating so my
Speaker 1: gun smoke collection and just there's gonna be a lot
Speaker 1: less stuff in my house and I'm very happy about that.
Speaker 1: The important part is TV history and the role of it,
Speaker 1: not just in what it gives to the people who
Speaker 1: watch it or each generation who who discovers it, but
Speaker 1: how it influences those people who create what you know,
Speaker 1: the next generation. Uh get So you gotta you gotta
Speaker 1: keep going back to duty and Sharry Lewis and and
Speaker 1: and super Sales to see where everything comes from.
Speaker 2: And mister Rogers, Oh yeah, what was the movie mm
Speaker 2: hmm that Soupy had never seen?
Speaker 1: Oh the crowd? Oh okay, so face of the crowd, everybody,
Speaker 1: when this is finished. I'm not telling you go right now,
Speaker 1: but when this is finished, go watch a face in
Speaker 1: the crowd Andy Griffith's greatest performance. Yes, I'm serious, I agree.
Speaker 1: I agree about a guy named Lonesome Roads. So okay,
Speaker 1: So it's coming on and I'm like all excited, and
Speaker 1: you know, Soupy sitting next to me in his wheelchair.
Speaker 1: Trudy's in the kitchen making incredible food, and I'm like, oh,
Speaker 1: it's a face in the crowd. This is great, you know,
Speaker 1: and he's like, I've never seen what are you kidding me?
Speaker 1: You've never seen what? How have you never seen? A
Speaker 1: face of the crowd. It's about early television, and he said,
Speaker 1: I was busy making early television and so I'm to
Speaker 1: the end. He was like that that was the beauty.
Speaker 1: No matter how much things were shutting down, you know,
Speaker 1: with his body, I could still we could still have
Speaker 1: that have that connection, and that was a really great gift.
Speaker 1: To the end. You say to him, you would say
Speaker 1: to him, are you comfortable? I make a nice living.
Speaker 2: And you know, maybe that is one of the key
Speaker 2: takeaways is humor. And you know we have to We've
Speaker 2: got to find the places and the ways to laugh.
Speaker 2: And I mean, you know, it's how the three of
Speaker 2: us survived through the pandemic. We found what was fun.
Speaker 1: Was the bubble and one of the beauties. And truly
Speaker 1: this kind of gets back to the beginning. Very good
Speaker 1: place to stop. But we can find our communities in
Speaker 1: a whole new ways that were not open to the
Speaker 1: three of us when you were kids. If I had
Speaker 1: known this soupy community existed and I could continue to
Speaker 1: interact with them online, you know, during those times when
Speaker 1: I had to live with my real life in you know,
Speaker 1: miserable public high school, I have had that if I
Speaker 1: had known, Okay, no matter what, there's these people over here. Now,
Speaker 1: remember you could also have a community of serial killers
Speaker 1: that way, and there were some aspects of not soupy,
Speaker 1: but let's say people around soupye who were more unsavory
Speaker 1: than how about that?
Speaker 2: It is amazing. I am. I am constantly in love
Speaker 2: with the young people I meet today because by and large,
Speaker 2: they're so much more open to one another. There so
Speaker 2: much kinder to one another. And you know, things like
Speaker 2: gender and sexuality are just a given. Like you tell
Speaker 2: me who you are, and I believe you and I
Speaker 2: accept you. And it is a different world. And anytime
Speaker 2: I think there's progress, there are always going to be
Speaker 2: some people that are afraid of progress and they're going
Speaker 2: to try to stand in the way.
Speaker 1: Yeah but okay, I already did. You can't stop the beat?
Speaker 1: Well no, but but that's the fact.
Speaker 2: I think that's where we're going.
Speaker 1: You can't, you can't. And you know, no matter how
Speaker 1: many times Rumpel still skin and flower and it jumps
Speaker 1: up and down and makes laws and says, you can't
Speaker 1: do this, you can't, you can't, And you know you
Speaker 1: can find ways to get the information out there. Yeah,
Speaker 1: hit the catacombs. Oh wait, that's the Catholic School education
Speaker 1: to cover it through again get it out.
Speaker 2: There, and now, I mean, you know, this is one
Speaker 2: of the other reasons I really wanted to do this.
Speaker 2: Your show is not just a Philadelphia show, right, We
Speaker 2: can RelA.
Speaker 1: Yep XPN dot org. You can listen live, you know,
Speaker 1: Monday through Thursday, but also there are shows archived there.
Speaker 1: There's also a series that I did for adults called
Speaker 1: Kathy Chats that started up during the pandemic about a
Speaker 1: variety of topics. Again, I do it live and then
Speaker 1: I forget it, so you know, go go listen and
Speaker 1: tell tell me what it was.
Speaker 3: And we can link to all of these things in
Speaker 3: the notes of this episode.
Speaker 1: Yes, well, one of the things I'm looking forward to
Speaker 1: is I'm doing a series with someone I love called
Speaker 1: Kathy talks to her trans kid. My trans kid is
Speaker 1: like pushing forty, so you know, but I look forward
Speaker 1: to that and it's mostly him sitting there telling me
Speaker 1: what I've done wrong, which is always nice. Oh hey,
Speaker 1: one of the greatest gifts he has given me to
Speaker 1: And I was bragging about this forever. I used to
Speaker 1: brag how after he came out to me, how much Wow,
Speaker 1: it really doesn't matter, does it? And I was kind
Speaker 1: of proud of feeling that way, except that kind of
Speaker 1: dishonored what was very important to him. And I never
Speaker 1: realized that, and I very much realize it now. So
Speaker 1: I get a lot out of the Kathy chats. So
Speaker 1: I'm hoping others will as well, and each of us
Speaker 1: is constantly evolving. Nice.
Speaker 2: I hope, yeah, we are. We are. I hope that
Speaker 2: you will come back. There are so many things we
Speaker 2: can talk about.
Speaker 1: Maybe, I don't know, I think we've got yeah, really exactly,
Speaker 1: because you know they'll be some horror up ahead. Well,
Speaker 1: Rainbow I'm telling you, throw on Rainbow Connection. Parents. If
Speaker 1: there's like, if there are questions where you know, I
Speaker 1: don't know why this happens and I'm upset to and
Speaker 1: I don't know, throw on Kermit the Frog or any
Speaker 1: version of Rainbow Connection therein and just listen to it,
Speaker 1: you know, together and you'll get through it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, together, That's how we do it.
Speaker 1: And make your own together, find an adult you trust,
Speaker 1: and if you got to make your own together, that's
Speaker 1: what you'll do.
Speaker 2: Beautiful. On that note, I want to thank you so
Speaker 2: much for joining us. I am worth a Madrigal.
Speaker 3: And I am Charles Tyson Jr.
Speaker 2: And thank you so much Kathy O'Connell for spending time
Speaker 2: with us today.
Speaker 1: Thank you, I love you. I'm going to go buy
Speaker 1: S donuts. Yay bye bye.
Speaker 3: Full Circle is a Never Scured Productions podcast hosted by
Speaker 3: Charles Tyson Junior and Martha Madrigal, produced and edited by
Speaker 3: Never Skurd Executive Produced by Charles Tyson Junior and Martha Madrigal.
Speaker 3: Our theme and music is by The Jingle Bears. All names, pictures, audio,
Speaker 3: and video clips are registered trademarks and or copyrights of
Speaker 3: their respective copyright holders.