Speaker 1: This episode may contain content of a graphic nature, including
Speaker 1: descriptions of physical and sexual violence against adults, children, and animals.
Speaker 1: Listener discretion is advised. Hi everyone, I'm Talia and I'm Tanya,
Speaker 1: and together we are Crimes and Consequences, a true crime podcast.
Speaker 1: Hi everybody, and welcome to Crimes in Consequences. My name
Speaker 1: is Talia and this is my very beautiful co host, Tanya. Hello,
Speaker 1: and we want to thank you guys all for joining us.
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Speaker 2: And with that being.
Speaker 1: Said, I don't think I need any more introductions, do you?
Speaker 2: No? I don't think so. I think we can get
Speaker 2: to it.
Speaker 1: So this story I dove in deep. I there's so
Speaker 1: much I could say that I'm probably going to leave
Speaker 1: out because it's just it's first of all, it's really tragic.
Speaker 1: It's pretty gruesome, and it does have children.
Speaker 2: Involved, oh children victims.
Speaker 1: And yes, and animals, and it's just bad.
Speaker 2: Yeah, just a warning.
Speaker 1: It's fucking bad. So but if you like true crime,
Speaker 1: it's a very interesting story and we like your like
Speaker 1: true crime. So with that, we're gonna get started. All right,
Speaker 1: let's put on my little reading classes.
Speaker 2: Go for it.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna tell you about John and Nancy Newman. They
Speaker 1: were married in twin Falls, Idaho, on January fifth, nineteen
Speaker 1: seventy five. Three years later. Their first daughter, her name
Speaker 1: is Melissa, was born on September twenty second, nineteen seventy eight.
Speaker 1: Then they had a second daughter, her name was Angie,
Speaker 1: and that she was born on August seventeenth of nineteen
Speaker 1: eighty three. They're living in Idaho and John gets a
Speaker 1: job in May of nineteen eighty five in Anchorage, Alaska.
Speaker 2: Ooh, that's a big move.
Speaker 1: So he moves first, and then Nancy and the girls
Speaker 1: follow in July of that year, so they're a few
Speaker 1: months apart. Nancy's sister her name was Cherl. Her name
Speaker 1: was Cheryl Chapman. She lived there, so they had some family.
Speaker 2: Oh that's nice.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that makes it better. And Nancy ended up getting
Speaker 1: a job where Cheryl worked. They were both waitresses at
Speaker 1: a place called Gwenny's and Gwene was It was a
Speaker 1: popular place in Anchorage. It was a restaurant and it's
Speaker 1: still in business today. Nancy's husband, John, he worked as
Speaker 1: a heavy equipment operator for Mark Air, this company, but
Speaker 1: then he got an injury from a forklift. I believe it.
Speaker 1: It kind of ran them.
Speaker 2: Oh no over a little bit, A little bit.
Speaker 1: I mean he I mean, he wasn't killed, but he
Speaker 1: was seriously injured. So workers' compensation like the work he
Speaker 1: you know, filed acclaim and he got paid to retrain
Speaker 1: as a locksmith. Oh and this was kind of interesting
Speaker 1: to me because he got paid to spend two months
Speaker 1: in California learning how to be a lacksmith. Wow. So
Speaker 1: I don't think he's just.
Speaker 2: Doing is this a state program?
Speaker 1: It is through the state, So I don't I don't
Speaker 1: think he's just doing a regular life Like there's no
Speaker 1: I think it's different lacks than what.
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, like some specialty blacksmith.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know. So the story that I'm gonna
Speaker 1: tell you takes place three days before John was to
Speaker 1: return home from California. This is not a good story.
Speaker 1: In March of nineteen eighty seven, while John was away
Speaker 1: in the training program, Nancy was staying obviously in Anchorage
Speaker 1: with her two young daughters, eight year old Melissa three
Speaker 1: year old Angie. Nancy had a second job. She not
Speaker 1: only was she a waitress at Gwenny's, but she was
Speaker 1: also a certified public accountant at H and R Black
Speaker 1: Oh Wow to make ends meet nice Yeah. On the
Speaker 1: evening of Friday, March thirteenth, nineteen eighty seven, Nancy went
Speaker 1: to dinner at Gwenny's along with her sister, Cheryl, and
Speaker 1: her brother in law. His name was Paul Chapman. Basically,
Speaker 1: she went to work and then after work they joined
Speaker 1: her and they all sat and they ate. Now Nancy
Speaker 1: and John's two daughters, Melissa and Angie. They had been
Speaker 1: taken to go swimming by Cheryl's daughter. Her name was Kelly.
Speaker 1: She was babysitting them. They went. Kelly made them some food,
Speaker 1: took them swimming. Nancy, Paul, and Cheryl. They're at the
Speaker 1: restaurant for a while, and then Nancy decides to go
Speaker 1: home with Paul and Cheryl to her apartment. She lived
Speaker 1: in an apartment whether with her husband and two daughters.
Speaker 1: They drove her home and Paul said, you know, if
Speaker 1: you need your car tomorrow, just let me know. I
Speaker 1: don't know if they were drinking. I don't know anything
Speaker 1: like that, but for some reason, she left her car
Speaker 1: at Gwenny's. They all the adults came back home and
Speaker 1: they just had coffee and they smoked some cigarettes, and
Speaker 1: eventually Kelly came back with Angie and Melissa, and Angie
Speaker 1: and Melissa got ready for bed. Cheryl and Paul left it.
Speaker 1: And it's about ten o'clock at night, Cheryl, I'm sorry not, Cheryl.
Speaker 1: Nancy didn't have to work the next day, so she
Speaker 1: really wasn't worried about.
Speaker 2: Oh, going to bed or yeah, getting up early or something.
Speaker 1: Having to get her a car right away. Yeah, she
Speaker 1: didn't have to work. So this is Friday night. She
Speaker 1: didn't have to work until Sunday morning. At six am,
Speaker 1: eight am on Sunday, Cheryl, her Nancy's sister, gets a
Speaker 1: call from Nancy's boss and I don't know why this
Speaker 1: is her boss's name, Okay, but they called her Mama Somerville. Okay, Mama, Sererville.
Speaker 1: It's from twenties. Nancy was two hours late for her
Speaker 1: shift and that wasn't That wasn't like her. She was
Speaker 1: very punctual, punctual, and her vehicle was still in the
Speaker 1: same spot as it was Friday night. This freaked Cheryl
Speaker 1: out and Paul and Cheryl told Mama Somerville, I'll drive
Speaker 1: over to Nancy's apartment and I'll check on them. Cheryl
Speaker 1: and Paul drive over there, and Cheryl is so upset
Speaker 1: she can't even get because she had a key to
Speaker 1: Nancy's place, she couldn't even get it in lock, so
Speaker 1: Paul had to do it. Cheryl waited in the kitchen
Speaker 1: freaking out while Paul searched the house the apartment. He
Speaker 1: yelled for Nancy and she didn't answer. They did notice
Speaker 1: the coffee cups from the night before were still in
Speaker 1: the sink, like from Friday night. Yeah, I'm sorry Friday night.
Speaker 1: Thank you. Paul begins searching the apartment and he comes
Speaker 1: to a gruesome site. And this is really hard to tell,
Speaker 1: so buckle up. Eight year old Melissa in a room.
Speaker 1: She was found lying on her back in the middle
Speaker 1: of the bedroom on the floor. Her right arm was
Speaker 1: under her body, and her left arm was out to
Speaker 1: the side. Both of her legs were bent back at
Speaker 1: the knees. She was naked from the waist down, and
Speaker 1: her pajama dress was pulled up over her chest. A
Speaker 1: blue pillowcase was tied tightly around her neck, and there
Speaker 1: was a second pillowcase around her right wrist, so as
Speaker 1: if at some point both of her wrists had been
Speaker 1: tied together, but that at the point where Paul found her,
Speaker 1: there was just one, just one wrist tied with a pillowcase.
Speaker 1: There was a pill of blood in her general area.
Speaker 2: I hate these stories.
Speaker 1: I know there was a palmprit that would later be
Speaker 1: found on the wall above her headboard. In the next
Speaker 1: room Paul found Nancy. She was laying on her mattress.
Speaker 1: A pillowcase was tied tightly around her neck. Her nightgown
Speaker 1: had been pulled up over her brass. Her face was
Speaker 1: bloody and beaten, and she was clearly dead, and a
Speaker 1: medical examiner would later determine she was raped and so
Speaker 1: was Melissa. And I read conflicting things. One said that
Speaker 1: Melissa was raped with a want object, but I know
Speaker 1: that semen was found in her so I don't know
Speaker 1: if there were two different forms, but we'll just go on.
Speaker 1: When Paul opened the third door, it was even more horrific.
Speaker 1: It was just a three year old Angie. She's lying,
Speaker 1: She's laying on the floor covered in blood.
Speaker 2: Oh man.
Speaker 1: She had her jugular vein had been slashed through. Her
Speaker 1: crowded artery had been cut. She'd been cut from ear
Speaker 1: to ear, and she had four different cuts on her neck.
Speaker 1: Her nightgown had been pushed up around her chest.
Speaker 2: This is so weird.
Speaker 1: Again. There was conflicting accounts of whether she was sexually
Speaker 1: assaulted or not. There might have been an attempt, is
Speaker 1: what I'm getting from it, because I feel like if
Speaker 1: she was I would have found it. Yeah, probably, And
Speaker 1: she had defensive wounds in her hands. And her cause
Speaker 1: of death, excuse me, was she bled out?
Speaker 2: Oh man.
Speaker 1: The corner estimated that all three were murdered approximately about
Speaker 1: ten o'clock on Saturday morning. So Friday night is when
Speaker 1: Cheryl and Paul and babysitter Kelly, cousin Kelly Rover. Paul
Speaker 1: sees all this. Man he stumbles to the kitchen and
Speaker 1: he tells Cheryl, don't go down the hall. They're all
Speaker 1: dead calls and and then nine one one calls which
Speaker 1: I don't have. Cheryl can be heard just screaming in
Speaker 1: the back. God. Now. A detective named Sergeant Mike Grimes.
Speaker 1: He was from the Anchorage Police Department's Homicide Response Team.
Speaker 1: He led the investigation for the triple homicide. There were
Speaker 1: two separate teams of detectives working on the case. One
Speaker 1: was to gather the evidence from the crimes crime scene
Speaker 1: and the other one was to pursue any leads. I
Speaker 1: mean I'm talking about right away. They split up like
Speaker 1: some Some are interviewing neighbors, others are looking at the
Speaker 1: crime scene. For weeks. Forensics actually went over Nancy's apartment.
Speaker 1: There was so much blood, hair, fluids, fingerprints. They use
Speaker 1: this what is it when they have glue that they
Speaker 1: heat up in.
Speaker 2: It, oh like super glue to get to bring finger princes.
Speaker 1: That they did that.
Speaker 2: I don't know what it's called, but yeah, I've heard
Speaker 2: of that.
Speaker 1: They vacuumed the apartment and then they had found out
Speaker 1: that Nancy had borrowed a vacuum from the Chapmans, So
Speaker 1: they took the vacuum from a couple days earlier and
Speaker 1: they went through all that they're trying to accumulate evidence,
Speaker 1: and they again they find hair fibers. They package them
Speaker 1: all and they sent it to the FBI. When the
Speaker 1: police first got there, they noticed there were two cereal
Speaker 1: bowls in the sink. There was a coffee cup on
Speaker 1: the table, three in the sink, and that was a
Speaker 1: sign to them that the girls had awoken Saturday and
Speaker 1: they normally had cereal and watched cartoons while Nancy smoked
Speaker 1: her Marlboro Reds and had coffee the morning cigarette it
Speaker 1: had coffee. Now, when Nancy would work, she would take
Speaker 1: all her coins and she would put it in a
Speaker 1: cookie tin, you know the ones like at Christmas, the tins,
Speaker 1: but she would roll them up, you know Nichols dimes
Speaker 1: into the little like the paper wrappers. Yeah, I remember
Speaker 1: those days. That was empty. They found that, and that
Speaker 1: was empty, and that's where she kept all of her
Speaker 1: her tips that were coins. Also missing from that apartment
Speaker 1: was her purse, her jewelry, her husband John's keys, a
Speaker 1: check book, a wallet, and a high priced a very
Speaker 1: expensive at the time, I'm thirty five millimeter camera. But
Speaker 1: despite what was taken, it didn't look like the place
Speaker 1: was ransacked. It looked like whoever was there knew where
Speaker 1: the items were that he or she wanted.
Speaker 2: Okay, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: They're searching. There's drawers aren't open, things aren't turned upside
Speaker 1: down anything. The evidence collected told a horrible story of
Speaker 1: torture and sexual assault.
Speaker 2: Oh man, tlea torture, ah man, Okay.
Speaker 1: Okay, I'm not going to get all that into it
Speaker 1: just because it is with a child, and I can't.
Speaker 1: I am a human being, believe it or not, even
Speaker 1: though I'm a lawyer inside right, it is still a
Speaker 1: little bit a little spark, still a little spark in me.
Speaker 2: There's a little piece still left.
Speaker 1: Nancy had been badly crushed in the face. Oh some
Speaker 1: blunt object, I mean, just beaten and then strangled with
Speaker 1: a pillowcase. Interestingly, on her dresser they found green wool gloves.
Speaker 2: Right like, isn't the summertime?
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, gloves, hair gloves. Her sheets were blood stained
Speaker 1: and there was some fecal matter on it. Okay, there
Speaker 1: was blood observed on the bathroom light switch, and in
Speaker 1: the bathroom they found a damp washcloth that had been
Speaker 1: used to clean the sink, the mirror, and the toilet. Area.
Speaker 2: Hmm.
Speaker 1: Forensic technicians discovered one pubic hair on the washcloth. Now,
Speaker 1: Melissa's body was how do I say this? She was
Speaker 1: the one that seemed to be the focus. Oh, and
Speaker 1: it's really it's just it's very heartbroken, heartbreaking for me.
Speaker 1: They found thirteen pubic hairs on or around her body,
Speaker 1: in addition to some extra headhair that didn't match any
Speaker 1: of the victims, and they found pubic care on her
Speaker 1: bed sheets. On three year old Angie. They killer left
Speaker 1: one pubic hare, which is why I'm led to believe
Speaker 1: he at least a tad too Ripeer. There were two
Speaker 1: more foreign pubic hairs that turned up when they vacuumed
Speaker 1: the floors, bringing the whole range of pubic hares to twenty.
Speaker 2: Damn. Okay, he sudden a lot of puba cares.
Speaker 1: I guess I got the hawk man. The killer had
Speaker 1: staged the bodies. Remember I told you Molisses legs were
Speaker 1: bent and the other ones were displayed out, so the
Speaker 1: police knew they were dealing with the psychopathics like sexual sadist. This, this,
Speaker 1: this is really fucked up. Sergeant Grimes consulted with the
Speaker 1: FBI's behavioral science units specifically Agent Judson Ray, and this
Speaker 1: is what Judson Ray concluded. He felt the killer would
Speaker 1: have low self esteem, he would feel rejected by society
Speaker 1: for years, and that now was his time for revenge.
Speaker 1: He was likely the youngest of his siblings.
Speaker 3: I wonder how they can figure this out. No, it's
Speaker 3: fascinating to me. Okay, sorry, sidetrack.
Speaker 1: It's so weird.
Speaker 2: Yeah it is.
Speaker 1: This person probably also experienced a recent traumatic event, such
Speaker 1: as a breakup or loss of a job. The killer
Speaker 1: would appear to be cooperative with the police and probably
Speaker 1: try to interject himself into the investigation. They believe he
Speaker 1: would have a history of sexual assault against either young
Speaker 1: people or elderly people.
Speaker 2: Oh like helpless people. That's real nice.
Speaker 1: He was white, an underachieving male, probably between the ages
Speaker 1: of nineteen and twenty four, Like what.
Speaker 2: Yeah, do you know what I know?
Speaker 1: All of this who lived nearby and Agent Ray. He
Speaker 1: believed that the family probably knew who it was, and
Speaker 1: perhaps they had rejected him. He specifically Nancy. He based
Speaker 1: on the the fact that her face was just beaten
Speaker 1: to a paul okay, which means someone's trying to annihilate
Speaker 1: her identity. Basically, He also speculated that the killer's goal
Speaker 1: was to humiliate Nancy and the girls. He would probably
Speaker 1: have a hard time in relationships, in maintaining even menial jobs.
Speaker 2: Well because he's a fucking creep.
Speaker 3: So anyway, yeah, that's probably why with that description.
Speaker 1: One person rose to the top of the suspect list.
Speaker 1: His name was Kirby Anthony. He's twenty three years old
Speaker 1: and he was a nephew of John Newman.
Speaker 2: Oh Cheryl's husband. Yes, okay.
Speaker 1: He had moved to Anchorage, Alaska with his girlfriend, Debbie
Speaker 1: Heck from Idaho. He is from Twin Falls in nineteen
Speaker 1: eighty five. The reason why he moved is there were
Speaker 1: allegations against him that he had brutally raped a twelve
Speaker 1: year old girl and beaten her, beaten her almost to death.
Speaker 1: Her name was Michelle Wow at an Idaho campground and
Speaker 1: he'd basically left her for dead, but she was found
Speaker 1: proskeutters found by her a pair of flip flaps, and
Speaker 1: they heard from other people that a group of guys
Speaker 1: had been partying in that area. So they ended up
Speaker 1: like I don't know if it was through the news
Speaker 1: or what, but somehow through the flip flaps connected it
Speaker 1: to Kirby. They were actually Kirby's friends flip flaps that
Speaker 1: he borrowed. So police were investigating Kirby. The problem that
Speaker 1: they had was that this girl, Michelle, had been so
Speaker 1: brutalized that she had suffered some brain injury. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: she couldn't identify her attacker immediately. So he skips town
Speaker 1: with his girlfriend and goes to Alaska while they're investigating him.
Speaker 1: And just a little side note, he Kirby did admit
Speaker 1: to verticalarizing the home in nineteen eighty two of an
Speaker 1: elderly woman, So this is a prior crime he committed.
Speaker 1: And I will get into his background a little bit.
Speaker 1: He beat this woman who was in a wheelchair. Man
Speaker 1: the fuck, what is his problem in a wheelchair? He
Speaker 1: sprayed her with mace in her face, tied her up,
Speaker 1: and took her phone so she couldn't call anybody. Any
Speaker 1: rob her. Luckily, her son had came to visit her
Speaker 1: and that saved her life. So let me give you
Speaker 1: a little background on Kirby. This gem his parents. He
Speaker 1: was the youngest of five, just like the profiler inside,
Speaker 1: he'd probably be the youngest. He was the youngest of
Speaker 1: five his dad was a truck driver and his mom
Speaker 1: was a waitress. Her name is Peggy. I don't remember
Speaker 1: his dad's name, but his dad wasn't very nice. His
Speaker 1: dad one time beat his brother for not feeding the cat.
Speaker 1: And while he was beating Kirby's brother, his mom, Kirby's
Speaker 1: mom tried to intervene. So he started beating Kirby's mom Peggy,
Speaker 1: and he kicked her in the ribs and she crawled
Speaker 1: into the bedroom and he came after her, and she
Speaker 1: grabbed a gun and he's like, what are you gonna do?
Speaker 1: Just go ahead and shoot me. So she did.
Speaker 2: Oh.
Speaker 1: She shot him in the hip. Wow, And he drove
Speaker 1: himself to the hospital and he survived. I'll just his years,
Speaker 1: his younger years. There's so many crimes, so I will
Speaker 1: just stick to the more interesting ones. There is a
Speaker 1: really disturbing incident that happened. He had a girlfriend, I
Speaker 1: believe her name was Kim, and he took him to
Speaker 1: a bridge where he had a bunch of friends there
Speaker 1: and his friends had baby bunnies in a bum no,
Speaker 1: and they were going to light the bunnies on fire
Speaker 1: what and throw them over the bridge. Kim started crying
Speaker 1: and Kirby's like, oh no, no, no, no, no, no no,
Speaker 1: and he acts like a hero and he takes her
Speaker 1: home and guess what he does.
Speaker 2: He kills the bunnies.
Speaker 1: He goes back to the bridge. Oh, lights the bunnies
Speaker 1: on fire with his friends alive, throws them over the bridge.
Speaker 2: People are fucking sick.
Speaker 1: God, Kim broke up with him, and he spent years
Speaker 1: stalking her. Oh God, even when she was married, he
Speaker 1: was still stalking her.
Speaker 2: This happened in Idaho, right, yes, crimes.
Speaker 1: Okay, So he's having all these troubles and he goes
Speaker 1: to Anchorage with his girlfriend Deb and they get odd jobs.
Speaker 1: He works at a car wash, just just some small
Speaker 1: jobs for a few months, and then they end up
Speaker 1: moving in with Nancy and John Newman. Okay, because they
Speaker 1: told Nancy and John and this is true, that they
Speaker 1: had gotten a job at the Arctic Enterprise. And that
Speaker 1: is a boat which also has a facility on it
Speaker 1: where or a factory where like, as soon as fish
Speaker 1: are caught, you can clean them right on the boat.
Speaker 1: But they also take the boat out for long periods
Speaker 1: of time, so they stay there for a little bit.
Speaker 1: They sell their possessions because.
Speaker 3: They're waiting to get on this boat for the season
Speaker 3: start or something exactly.
Speaker 1: And then Nancy and John did not enjoy their company.
Speaker 1: So you know, they found Kirby to be aggressive and
Speaker 1: that he did drugs. I don't know what kind of drugs.
Speaker 1: I do know cocaine, probably weed. I don't know anything else.
Speaker 1: But eventually they deb and Kirby Kirby, thank you. They
Speaker 1: go on the boat. They go on the Enterprise, and
Speaker 1: Kirby's girlfriend she really wanted to go on that ship
Speaker 1: because she was being abused and she felt if she
Speaker 1: was surrounded by other people, he wouldn't be able to
Speaker 1: refuse her, and she wanted to break up with them.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, it's best to be around other people because
Speaker 3: she probably knows what a psycho he is exactly.
Speaker 1: Yeah, she breaks up with them on the boat, and
Speaker 1: he doesn't like that so much. But then she starts
Speaker 1: dating somebody. Oh girl, no, and he really doesn't like that.
Speaker 1: He ended up getting fired because he started fights. So
Speaker 1: he got kicked off the boat.
Speaker 3: So that's the traumatic event and he lost his yah,
Speaker 3: his girlfriend.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he goes back to Anchorage and he shows up
Speaker 1: at Nancy's apartment and he asks us if he can stay,
Speaker 1: you know, with.
Speaker 2: With Nancy and the girls.
Speaker 1: Yeah, while John's away in California.
Speaker 3: Oh no, Nancy says, okay, Oh, she's so nice.
Speaker 1: But when she told John, John was like, oh, hell
Speaker 1: to the no fuck out. So Nancy had to kick
Speaker 1: him out.
Speaker 2: Oh boy.
Speaker 1: She didn't tell John that she had loaned him five
Speaker 1: hundred dollars. And by the way, Kirby's mom never bothered
Speaker 1: to share with Nancy and John the fact that he
Speaker 1: was being looked at.
Speaker 2: For oh for the twelve year old rape.
Speaker 1: And attempted murder of a twelve year old.
Speaker 2: That's nice. No, she was just happy he was gone.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Sure, Probably Kirby. On the night of the murders,
Speaker 1: he claims that that entire evening, I should say, like
Speaker 1: before March thirteenth, he was playing cards, drinking, using some
Speaker 1: cocaine until the early morning hours.
Speaker 2: As one does. Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 3: Anya doesn't cocaine in my life.
Speaker 1: I don't talk about the things, Okay. Around eight forty
Speaker 1: five am on March fourteenth, he said, he left his
Speaker 1: apartment and went to a friend's house, and he was
Speaker 1: there till about ten or eleven in the morning, and
Speaker 1: that is the morning with the murders. How questions is,
Speaker 1: how could anybody do this? How could anybody do this?
Speaker 1: How could anybody do this that knows?
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, because he's his.
Speaker 1: Family and we're talking about eight and three year old, right,
Speaker 1: not to forget about Nancy. But detectives weren't convinced with
Speaker 1: his alibi, but they had no direct evidence to at
Speaker 1: that point to arrest him. There was no murder weapon
Speaker 1: ever recovered because he did remember us a blunt.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a project on Nancy.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but their circumstantial evidence started building up. But then
Speaker 1: he could explain it in a way as oh, I
Speaker 1: lived with them, Oh that's right, right, when my fingerprints.
Speaker 2: My hair, my whatever. Yeah.
Speaker 1: But his fingerprints were found on the empty cookie cookie
Speaker 1: tin cookie ten.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you should be touching that right, yeah, and
Speaker 2: belonged to him.
Speaker 1: A witness came forward and said that Kirby paid for
Speaker 1: something with rolled up points. Oh yeah, but this is
Speaker 1: where it's like it's it's just gonna get really gross.
Speaker 1: Pubic cares that were collected, remember I told you about
Speaker 1: twenty of them, and the washcloth had a pubic hair
Speaker 1: on it. Those hairs were examined microscopically, and they were
Speaker 1: compared to samples that Herby I had to give. And
Speaker 1: we all know hair evidence isn't all that solid.
Speaker 3: Right right, I'm just thinking the poor person that has
Speaker 3: to collect the evidence, but go on, like what a job?
Speaker 1: Okay, clean to Some of the pubic hairs were crabs
Speaker 1: otherwise known as cubic lice eggs.
Speaker 2: Oh man, all these poor.
Speaker 1: They were found on Kirby at the time he had
Speaker 1: a whole pubic lice infestation. Word I was going to say.
Speaker 1: And they were found on the washcloth there was one,
Speaker 1: and by the.
Speaker 2: Bodies coincidence, I don't think so.
Speaker 1: On the bodies too, so horrible, it's awful.
Speaker 2: Gross.
Speaker 1: Green woolf fibers were discovered on the washcloth that matched
Speaker 1: the gloves and that were, you know, in Nancy's room.
Speaker 1: And as I said, he eventually said, oh yeah, I
Speaker 1: didn't tell you this, but he said, oh yeah, I
Speaker 1: brought the gloves over a week earlier. I was doing
Speaker 1: some like work on the house, or a couple of
Speaker 1: days earlier, and I left him there. So he actually
Speaker 1: admitted that they were his gloves. They concluded, I mean that,
Speaker 1: I mean.
Speaker 2: He fucking did it.
Speaker 1: He did it.
Speaker 2: I mean, circumstantial evidence is still evidence.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it doesn't always have to be like a positive
Speaker 3: DNA test. I like, what the what's the probability that
Speaker 3: there's another person who knows the family, even a stranger, let's.
Speaker 1: Just say, who also has a history of yeah, violent,
Speaker 1: right and violence and also pubic life.
Speaker 2: I mean, what are the odds? I mean, I think
Speaker 2: that would narrow down quite a few people. I mean,
Speaker 2: I don't know, I don't know what the statistics are, but.
Speaker 1: Well, they haven't find John Newman's expensive thirty five millimeter
Speaker 1: camera in where he was staying at a friend named
Speaker 1: Dan's house.
Speaker 2: Oh well, there's another piece of evidence.
Speaker 1: He said, Nancy let him borrow it.
Speaker 2: Sure she did.
Speaker 1: John said, there's not a chance in home anybody Nancy
Speaker 1: would let anybody borrow it. It was expensive, Well, it
Speaker 1: was expensive back in nineteen eighty five, and when they
Speaker 1: processed the film in there, it only showed pictures of
Speaker 1: Nancy and John and the family. So if you really
Speaker 1: needed a borrow camera, he never used it. Yeah, he
Speaker 1: never used it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, she's not going to just let anybody take it,
Speaker 3: especially some irresponsible nineteen year old.
Speaker 1: On they found a very small drop of human blood
Speaker 1: on the totle area of one of his shoes and
Speaker 1: a stain on his shirt that matched Nancy's peces. Oh man,
Speaker 1: they didn't do DNA, so it just must have been
Speaker 1: fecal matter because at this point they didn't have Dan. No,
Speaker 1: they didn't, but they had enough, right, Yeah. Kirby decides,
Speaker 1: oh shit, I need to get the hell out of Dodge.
Speaker 2: Oh. He tries to flee.
Speaker 1: So he tries to flee. He tells his roommate, Hey,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna leave.
Speaker 2: Don't tell the police, don't tell them where I went.
Speaker 1: And his roommate, again, his name is Dan, was pretty
Speaker 1: freaked out by Kirby at that point and he was
Speaker 1: afraid for himself. So he waited a few hours and
Speaker 1: then he was like hello police on one. Hello, Kirby
Speaker 1: is headed to the Canadian border. And it's kind of
Speaker 1: a long story. He made it past the border, but
Speaker 1: he had a suspended license, so they sent him back
Speaker 1: and he got caught. And his trial was a very
Speaker 1: high profile trial that this.
Speaker 3: Is a horrendous story. It's it's like, I'm sure it
Speaker 3: was sensationalized.
Speaker 1: And John Douglas testified he did Special Agent John Douglas
Speaker 1: from the FBI.
Speaker 2: Nice he has. I just keep seeing him.
Speaker 3: I keep seeing him pop up, like on my Facebook
Speaker 3: or Instagram.
Speaker 1: Want to be your friend.
Speaker 2: No, No, he does.
Speaker 3: A master class, like you take it, you can join this.
Speaker 2: I guess I don't know his company or whatever.
Speaker 3: And they have master classes and there's all kinds of
Speaker 3: people on it, like the Wolfgang Puck does, like cooking
Speaker 3: and like. So John Douglas does a whole course. I
Speaker 3: guess you would call it on like how to spot
Speaker 3: liars and stuff.
Speaker 1: I mean to.
Speaker 2: Watch you, I know.
Speaker 1: I don't know, John Douglas said. She looks at me
Speaker 1: like that.
Speaker 2: Every time I hear his name. I'm like, oh, I
Speaker 2: need to sign up for that master class.
Speaker 1: You can tell me about that.
Speaker 2: But I know I forget please, you know, I forget everything.
Speaker 1: About I forgot Kirby's name.
Speaker 2: Well, I'm telling you now.
Speaker 1: So in one of the episodes, I asked what happened
Speaker 1: to the killer killer and then he died In the
Speaker 1: story he was shot, Okay, anyway.
Speaker 3: Anyway, I'm sorry. That's a sidetrack. But John Douglas testify.
Speaker 1: He testified, and he said that the Newman murders were
Speaker 1: sexually fueled murders, which are committed by psychopaths. He said,
Speaker 1: and I'm not quoting, I'm verbatim, but sex fueled murders
Speaker 1: are some of the most disturbing and psychologically depraved crimes
Speaker 1: committed by people with severe psychopathic problems. These crimes are
Speaker 1: more than just murder. They are done to get sadistic
Speaker 1: pride from the prolonged torture, sexual violation, and absolute dominance
Speaker 1: over the victims at their center. Sex fueled murders are
Speaker 1: driven by a lignant narcissism. Narcissism and a complete loss
Speaker 1: of empathy. Oh so, he's They no longer view others
Speaker 1: as people worthy of dignity, but simply as objects to
Speaker 1: be controlled, defiled, and in the long run killed for
Speaker 1: their own gratification. Not done. The build up of sadistic
Speaker 1: sexual fantasies over time leads to the offender's reality being
Speaker 1: separated from their moral reasoning. I don't think Kirby had
Speaker 1: a lot of moral reasons.
Speaker 3: Only nineteen too, Oh he's twenty three, okay, but geez.
Speaker 1: The crime scene of the crime scenes of sex fieled
Speaker 1: murders are reflect the psychological duality of sexual depravity mixed
Speaker 1: with a need for general power and cruelty. They often
Speaker 1: pose their victims elaborate staging, and he goes on and
Speaker 1: on man, and these calculated acts are done by sane
Speaker 1: people who are conscious that their actions are wrong, but
Speaker 1: lack the ordinary judgment of right and wrong or feel regret.
Speaker 1: That's what we had to say. So there's trial. Kirby
Speaker 1: takes stand. Oh he does himself no favors. There's no
Speaker 1: point even talking about the stupid shit he says, because
Speaker 1: he does himself no favors.
Speaker 2: The just says he didn't do it right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm sure he didn't do it. He didn't do it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean wasn't mean we never do that.
Speaker 1: No, the jury deliberated, they weighed all the evidence, and
Speaker 1: he was found.
Speaker 2: Guilty, Thank goodness.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he got life in prison with the possibility of parole.
Speaker 1: Really after one hundred and twenty years.
Speaker 2: Oh so you get good.
Speaker 1: Nor This is you know, sparked our outrage and anchorage Alaska.
Speaker 1: I mean, everybody was upset. Kirby had to be in
Speaker 1: solitary confinement because of death threats, and then I read
Speaker 1: about him. He's still in prison, and he's been in fights.
Speaker 1: He actually has an appellate case about some altercations denied
Speaker 1: or something. So he assaulted, severely assaulted somebody. So let's see. So, okay,
Speaker 1: do you want to know what police believe happened. Yes, okay,
Speaker 1: they believe that Saturday morning, the kids got up, Nancy
Speaker 1: got up, She gave them cereal. They watched the cartoons.
Speaker 1: About nine o'clock, Kirby called Nancy and asked if he
Speaker 1: could talk to her. She said, okay, because there's no
Speaker 1: sign of him breaking in or anything. And there was
Speaker 1: an ash tray. In that ashtray, I told you there
Speaker 1: were a Marlboro cigarette, and then there was a camel
Speaker 1: and he smoked camel cigarettes. Kirby did, there's an extra
Speaker 1: cup of coffee. There were three in the scene four
Speaker 1: nights before. Extra cup of coffee. Some time between nine
Speaker 1: and ten while after he finished a cigarette, he got
Speaker 1: mad and he made the Nancy go in a room.
Speaker 1: He made everybody go in the room. And I don't
Speaker 1: know how he controlled them. I don't know, but he
Speaker 1: had some sort of blunt force object that they never found.
Speaker 1: It gets really sad, he did later state to a
Speaker 1: woman who came forward that he forced Nancy to watch
Speaker 1: him rape Melissa.
Speaker 2: Why do you force someone to do that?
Speaker 1: Well, Melissa was tied up, and I don't know if
Speaker 1: he had a weapon. You got a daughter all tied up,
Speaker 1: you got I'm assuming she didn't have access to a phone.
Speaker 2: That breaks my heart. It's really terrible.
Speaker 1: And I don't know if he was threatening.
Speaker 2: To kill to kill Melissa, right.
Speaker 1: If that's all I mean, I can only speculate. That's
Speaker 1: just what somebody came forward and said. He later said,
Speaker 1: we know he raped Nancy. He took his time with Melissa,
Speaker 1: which leads me to believe that maybe Nancy was there
Speaker 1: because he was trying to torture Nancy in essence by
Speaker 1: torturing Melissa and having her watch. When he was done,
Speaker 1: he went to the bathroom, took a washcloth, cleaned himself up,
Speaker 1: clean the sink a little bit, cleaned around the toilet,
Speaker 1: stole some items, and then went about.
Speaker 2: His day like nothing happened.
Speaker 1: And he still claims his innocence. Sure, but he's in prison.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he can fuck off.
Speaker 1: He can totally fuck off. So that's the horrible, horrible story.
Speaker 2: Oh tell yeah, Jesus, it was horrible.
Speaker 3: God, I know that was terrible. I mean they're all
Speaker 3: terrible stories. I know I've said this one hundred times.
Speaker 2: But when it's kid man and just and such a
Speaker 2: horrible like.
Speaker 1: You can sometimes understand crimes and passion, like the heat
Speaker 1: of passion. You're angry, Yeah, your lover just left you,
Speaker 1: freak out whatever, or your lover has another lover.
Speaker 2: But this, yeah, there's no sense.
Speaker 3: There's no sense when there's no sense to it, I
Speaker 3: mean yeah, because I mean like you can you can
Speaker 3: understand some other crimes like, oh, somebody's robbing a bank
Speaker 3: and they shoot and kill a police officer or you
Speaker 3: know what I mean, there's murders where you're like, oh,
Speaker 3: I see how that happened, like, but.
Speaker 1: There was something that was right. But yeah, were signs
Speaker 1: the bonnies.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the bunnies.
Speaker 1: And I didn't even get I mean, he was full childhood.
Speaker 1: He was in the juvie by the time I was fourteen.
Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, attacking a twelve year old I mean,
Speaker 3: almost killing her, leaving her for dad, Yeah, leaving her
Speaker 3: for dad.
Speaker 2: I mean the girlfriends.
Speaker 1: Woman in a wheelchair and elderly woman in a wheelchair.
Speaker 3: T Yeah, like he should have been off the streets,
Speaker 3: but man, this one's bad.
Speaker 2: Well, thanks, I guess thanks to Lea.
Speaker 1: You're welcome. Thank you guys all for taking the time
Speaker 1: to listen to us. And if you want to get
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Speaker 1: our Apple subscribers or our patreons, you can go to
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Speaker 1: you and an exclusive group of people. We love get
Speaker 1: and we have Facebook, but we don't really we're not
Speaker 1: really social media active.
Speaker 2: No, I'm not a kind of expert.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm busy. I'm busy. I'm I'm busy. I had
Speaker 1: a job, got kids, I got kids, I got a
Speaker 1: dog in our.
Speaker 3: Cats and yeah, you're like doctor Doolitt all fit your house.
Speaker 1: To zoo at my house and the monkeys are running
Speaker 1: it literally, I'm not kidding. Yeah.
Speaker 2: We have a website, Crimes Andconsequences dot com.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you can get merchandise there.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think that's probably everything enough men, so
Speaker 3: I'm fine with all that until our next episode.
Speaker 1: Don't kill each other.
Speaker 3: Bye bye, Peo