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Speaker 1: Recently, I was thinking of the iconic scene in pulp

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fiction where Vincent is talking about his time in Europe

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and says, it's mostly the same, but you notice the

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little differences, the little things. The same thing applies when

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Christian nationalists are governing your country.

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Speaker 2: I know it's a big jump, but stick with me.

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Speaker 1: It's not like Christian nationalists won the recent election and

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the very next day only Christians could hold office, or

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only Christians could serve as jurors. No, they did a

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bunch of little things. They issued an executive order to

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quote eliminate anti Christian bias within federal agencies, which is

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code for we need to start favoring Christians. They pardoned

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people convicted of crimes, even violent ones related to protesting

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against abortion. They appointed incompetent people to run all of

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our scientific agencies and to stop grants to research they

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don't like.

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Speaker 2: The list goes on and on.

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Speaker 1: But the latest little thing, the funniest little thing, the

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thing I want to call out today.

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Speaker 2: It happened at the Pentagon.

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Speaker 1: The DoD recently reclassified Mormonism as non Christian. Why is

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this funny to me? Well over two thirds of Mormons

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voted for Christian nationalism in the last election. Then the

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people they voted for turned around and said, to their faces,

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you aren't true Christians, wouldn't you know it? Mormons and

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Congress gave speeches and wrote sternly worded letters while they

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pounded the table Christians in excuse me. Citizens in Utah

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were interviewed on the local news about how shocked they

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were and how offensive this was. Mormon law professors screamed

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about the Constitution of all things. To use a famous metaphor,

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the people who voted for the leopards eating people's faces

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were screaming at the top of their lungs that they

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didn't think they meant Mormon faces. After their public tantrum,

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the DoD walked the change back somewhat, but it too late.

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Speaker 2: The mask had already slipped.

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Speaker 1: For example, the Defense Secretary Pete Hegsett's own openly Christian

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nationalist pastor Doug Wilson called Mormon's quote polytheists practicing a

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quote non Christian faith.

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Speaker 2: This is what they voted for. This is how.

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Speaker 1: Christian nationalism starts. We know this not because they grabbed

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power and started shipping people off in box cars, but

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because of what Vincent said, it's the little things. The

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end game of Christian nationalism is never actually a unified front.

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It's never just about keeping secularists or atheists or Muslims

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or gay people or immigrants or whomever out of public life.

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It is fundamentally about who gets to hold the theological

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clipboard and decide who is the right flavor of Christian

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to be favored by government. If you have thoughts about

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Christian nationalism or any other theistic topic, give us a

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call because the show starts now.

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Speaker 2: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome everybody.

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Speaker 1: Today June fourteenth, twenty twenty six, and we want to

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welcome you all to the Atheist Experience.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for joining us.

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Speaker 1: I'm your host, the Cross Examiner, and with me big

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drum roll, jmi mody.

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Speaker 3: I did not we got to.

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Speaker 4: I don't even want to be here. I didn't actually

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get a drum roll. So you're supposed to, you know.

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Speaker 3: No, that's all good.

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Speaker 5: There, we're there ghost there, Yeah, put in post absolutely.

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Speaker 2: I love the background. By the way, Yeah, am I am?

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Speaker 3: I allowed to steal the Joe?

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Speaker 1: No, you know what, I'm not gonna know you should

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like it makes me think you're a flat earther but yeah.

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Speaker 4: So like I'm always asked if, hey, what do you

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want for a background?

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Speaker 3: Like uh, I think you said like flat earth.

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Speaker 4: Because we were talking about it, right, and uh I

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said how about yeah, like I don't know, cube eirth

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or something like a square earth, and Craig's like cube

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and he's like, it's six times six times better than

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the flat Earth, when I was like, OK, I like that.

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I wanted to shamelessly steal the joke, but I knew

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I couldn't.

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Speaker 3: Deliver it like I just did. So yeah, so what

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you been up to? Man a lot?

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Speaker 4: Actually, Like I wouldn't mention, you know, because I don't

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think it's anybody's business, and uh, I don't want to

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put put like the vibes down. Uh, But I I

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think it's really important to talk about mental health struggles.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely that I that I deal with.

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Speaker 4: And you know me and you talked about this before

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the show. But I have been dealing with the you

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know a little bit of anxiety and depression. So not

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the best if I'm if I'm honest, but I've had

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conversations today with some friends and I feel a lot better.

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So I'm I'm on the highest high I can do

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right now, so so we're looking good. But I think

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it's important to talk about, you know, mental health struggles

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and that if anyone.

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Speaker 3: Else is having this, like I deal with this all

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the time.

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Speaker 4: It's always a struggle, and it's really important to talk

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to people because it really got me out of a run,

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like I didn't even want to get out of my bed,

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you know, So it really does it really does help.

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Speaker 3: I would do you're struggle with any of that.

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Speaker 4: As someone who's way more in a positive mood than

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I was a couple hours ago, you know, it's really hard,

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not it's really hard sometimes to want to reach out

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to somebody.

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Speaker 5: It's really hard, like that's what I struggle with.

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Speaker 3: But do it because I promise it's.

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Speaker 2: Liberating.

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Speaker 5: It really is.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely I myself was diagnosed with some mild depression back

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in my college days and it sort of stuck with me.

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And we've had that sort of depressive mental health issue

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through my mother's side of the family. And it's something

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to watch out for because it'll sneak up and get

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you and you won't even think of it as.

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Speaker 2: Depression when it starts.

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Speaker 1: It's just like I don't feel like doing that today,

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And it begins with procrastination and it sort of sneaks

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into well, I just I'm going to veg and just

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watch shows today, and then I'm not getting out of bed,

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and then you just feel like I'm just self hatred.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, self hatred.

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Speaker 4: That that aspect of failure creeps in and you know,

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you just think the worst of yourself. But it's almost

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never true, right Like you you identify these propositions that

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are like, oh, it's true I'm a failure or.

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Speaker 5: This or that, and my buddy put a away with dude.

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Speaker 4: It's it is the depression lying to you, you know,

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and it's only going to put you in that mode

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where you just are failing.

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Speaker 3: You aren't doing anything.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.

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Speaker 4: I think sorry if I put people down on this,

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but I normally the type of person I am is

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to just shove that ship in the back, not mention

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it to anybody. It might be obvious with the way

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that I'm speaking in my tone, it's really hard for

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me to talk about it, but it's so important to

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do it.

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Speaker 2: So just oh, I'm glad you brought it up.

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Speaker 1: It's it's and we can even analyze it through the

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lens of this show as well, because I've had friends

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who have been depressed, not just sad, but like clinically depressed,

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and they were Christian and turned to a Christian counselor,

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and what are they told to do?

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Speaker 2: Well, pray on it, right, It's not not.

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Speaker 1: Go out and get medicated, which is nine out of

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ten times, as far as I understand it, part of

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the problem, you know, Yeah, you have a few too

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little or a few too many milligrams of some substance

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in your blood and it's affecting your brain. And we

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can fix that, we can at least help it right,

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and a lot of it has learned behavior and all that.

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But when you go to somebody and your pastor your

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Christian therapist or whatever, and their solution is prey and

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that's it, don't do that, like we hear Mike and I,

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Yes we're atheists, but we're humans first, And I don't

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care if you're a Christian or Muslim or whatever. If

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you're if you've got mental health issues, anything from depression

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to worse. You know, the single best thing I ever

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did in my life was going to see a psychiatrist

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and getting on at back in the day. It was

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a little bit of prozac that got me into good

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working habits, and then when I came off of it,

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those working.

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Speaker 2: Habit stuck with it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And that working habit was this structure of support

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that sort of taught me, Oh, there's a positive feedback

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loop here if I if I get up every day

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and do what I need to do, then the things

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don't pile up, and then I don't get depressed about

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the things piling up exactly.

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Speaker 4: And man, I've never had anyone, by the way it's

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say like, oh, you should pray in this, and I

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imagine a lot of the audience has had that said

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to them. Dude, that would piss me off so much

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because it's just totally invalidating of someone's experience and it

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just tells that person you don't you are not connecting

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with me right now. You don't even give a fuck

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about me. You have some motivation and some alternative that

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you some motiv that you really desperately want me to

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be a part of. And it's just like I've never

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had that happen. But oh my god, anyone, that's how

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that happened to you? Like, I'm sorry for you. That's

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that sounds terrible.

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Speaker 2: I'm googling it right now. I think it is.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a secular therapy project by doctor Ray. I

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can wholeheartedly endorse that I've spoken with him before. He's

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seems to be a great guy. I don't know the

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professional credentials, but I've met people who have worked with

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the Secular Therapy Project, just so people understand. It's like, hey,

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I want therapy, but I don't want you the therapist

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bringing your religious or worldviewvat baggage to therapy session.

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Speaker 4: So that's a great segue by the way, too, because

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I was like, I don't want to just randomly open,

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but when people ask how have you been, I'm like, well,

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I not. I want to just lie and go out

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yeah great, well good, I'm doing awesome, fucking great, you know,

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because it's just not true. So yeah, it's I think

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that's a really good segue for where I can this

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might be able to help people who aren't in my

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situation where I didn't have the religious baggage.

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Speaker 3: Now that doesn't doesn't mean.

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Speaker 4: That I'm still not possibly a victim of when I

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go and seek therapy or something, that I become a

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victim of this type of you know practice of you know,

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you need Jesus or let me do the Bible or whatever.

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So you know, it's it's really good to make sure

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that the person you're talking to is someone that's going

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to be completely and not have any of that religious

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baggage or you know under overtones.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, super important. Absolutely so.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, as as my mom says, better living through chemistry,

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and as uh, somebody I watch on YouTube says every show,

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take your meds and drink your water. So just make it,

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make it a part of your your to the viewers,

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make it a part.

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Speaker 2: Of your daily tasks, and seek help from friends.

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Speaker 1: I think that what Mike said at the beginning of

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like just talking to people and deciding to go out

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and see them, is that's a world of good just

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to get off your butt.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it does help if you have a humanist friend

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to talk to. In my case that was the case,

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and so it does really help that someone has those

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shared values and that you know that they're really dialed

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in on how you think about things and how that

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they can figure.

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Speaker 3: Out how to help you around that, you know, not

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just kind of.

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Speaker 4: Feed your stuff where you're like you sit there and

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scoff and like, I don't think you really get this

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what I'm going through.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they don't come in with an agenda.

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Speaker 1: They're not trying to reframe your problem as an opportunity

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for them to save somebody precisely.

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Speaker 4: Yea, with all that now, I won't bore anybody with

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my with my depression issues.

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Speaker 1: But no, no, I'm sure everybody you know, I've not

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met anybody that has seen you on our shows and

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not thought you were an awesome guy. So I'm sure

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everybody's cheering for you and happy for you, and you know,

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give us a call anytime you want if you just

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want to hang as well. I know I'm not in

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the same state, but always glad to talk to you,

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and I'm sure audience feels the same. So even Jesus

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gets sad sometimes, Jeeven, Jesus does get sad sometimes or

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on the cross or angry, like, hey, tables and father,

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you forsaken me.

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Speaker 4: I tried in the garden to himself and no one

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was there to write it down, by the way, which.

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Speaker 2: Is that's true?

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Speaker 6: Weird?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so I always revealed with the King of Kings

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right now, that's right.

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Speaker 1: Well, the atheist experience is a product of the Acist

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Community of Austin, a five oh one c three nonprofit

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organization dedicated to the promotion of atheism, critical thinking, secular humanism,

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and the separation of religion and government. This means that

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you can give us a tax free donation. I shouldn't

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say us the ACA. We don't see a dime. Everybody

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here is volunteers as many dollars as you want in fact,

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and know that not only is it going to be

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going to a good cause, but it also helps you too.

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We are triple streaming today and I don't know if

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you've heard about this, J Mike. We are on YouTube,

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We're on TikTok, and we're on YouTube Mobile. So if

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you guys are watching us on tik tak tonight, we

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have the ability to bring you up and talk to

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us as well. So just request to join and will

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you bring you up on the stage when it's your

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turn in line, But please make sure that you're over

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eighteen or I should say eighteen or over before doing so.

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Speaker 2: We have a lot of calls lined up.

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Speaker 4: Should we get one, Oh yeah, I'm yeah, yeah, Sorry

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for the delay. I'm on a I'm on a five

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second mental delay of the barrel.

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Speaker 2: I've got some I have new utterances.

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Speaker 4: I have a new I bought a new monitor, And

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now it's like my eyes don't know what to do

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anymore because I was just stuck looking here, and I'm

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like trying to admit I should have done this at

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a time, very unprofessional.

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Speaker 3: But now I got my screens all set up.

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Speaker 2: No, no, it's good.

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Speaker 1: All people who watch from home, we can give them

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a peek behind, Like we're all at our.

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Speaker 2: Homes or wherever on our own monitors.

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Speaker 1: So I've got my show notes here, I've got the

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camera feed here, I've got the the stuff down here

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that tells me who the callers are. So if you

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see us looking around, that's what's going on. It's a

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lot to keep track of and try to listen and

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pay attention when people call. So why don't we jump

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on a call here? We've got Levi from Louisiana, And

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the note here I have from Levi is why shouldn't

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I I am Levi? Why shouldn't I believe that the

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universe was created by a higher power? So why don't

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we first check in with Levi?

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Speaker 2: How are you doing? And is that in fact? What

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you'd like to talk about tonight, LEVI.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, so I guess I've had my faith shaken up

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a bit recently, And yeah, I think I would like

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to hear an atheist standpoint on some good reasoning for

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why not believing in a higher power.

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Speaker 6: Is a better way to live my life? Or you

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know whatever? Can you hear me?

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Speaker 5: Fine?

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Speaker 2: You absolutely?

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Speaker 1: Why don't we start off with a broader category than

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just why shouldn't I believe in any particular God? Why

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don't we start off with a broader category where I

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think you'll you'll agree with us generally, and then we

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can then refocus on the God claim.

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Speaker 2: So do you believe? Let me let me ask you this.

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Speaker 1: Do you think it is true true that people should

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try to believe as many true things and as few

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false things as possible. Is that a good way to

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go through your life?

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Speaker 7: Uh? If I if I had to say yes or no,

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I think I couldn't really choose. I would say that

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sometimes believing in things that aren't necessarily true might be

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good for somebody.

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Speaker 1: Okay, why don't you Why don't you give us a

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few examples, because I can think of some, but I'm

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not sure what you're thinking.

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Speaker 7: Of Yeah, Okay, well, I guess I could believe that

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having a more positive outlook on a situation that would

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truthfully turn out negative could potentially benefit the person who

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believes that.

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Speaker 1: Or let me let me I didn't before you go

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on from that, I want to clarify what you said,

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because you said I might believe that having a positive

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outflick would be beneficial.

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Speaker 2: Is what you're saying there? Saying if I believe a

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false thing.

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Speaker 1: That makes me think that I will have a positive outcome,

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that just that false belief that things will be okay,

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that could be beneficial, more beneficial than harmful.

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Speaker 2: Is that what you're saying.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, Like, in a situation where and the end result

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would be not what would be negative, having a positive

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outlook throughout that situation could be beneficial to that person.

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Speaker 1: So your assumption there is, I'll say, the only way

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or the main way to have a positive outlook is

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to believe something that's not true. That it's not possible

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to have the same positive outlook by believing reality. Let's

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say I'm diagnosed with cancer, so it's better to assume

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I'm not diagnosed with cancer and just like cancer doesn't

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exist than it is to deal with the cancer in.

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Speaker 7: That particular situation, I would say that what I'm trying

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to describe is believing that you'll recover from the cancer

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even if ultimately you.

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Speaker 6: Don't, could result in a better.

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Speaker 4: But that I mean, that's a scenario where the future

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is open, and so it's like it's not it's not

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like there's a proposition that it false yet, right, So

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it's a little so we're talking about.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, hold on real.

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Speaker 4: Quick, real quick, but the hypothetical can't like I don't

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because I might be sympathetic to like these open future examples.

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Speaker 5: I don't know.

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Speaker 4: I mean, like, sure, it might be better for me

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and still some confidence about me beating some type of illness,

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but the future is open, at least as far as

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I can see, Like, I don't know the outcome. And

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so there's not a scenario where I'm like believing something

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that's true and it's not true because there's no value

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for that proposition being true or false yet, right, we

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don't know, we have no idea. So if we're going

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to use an example, I think it maybe better to

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use one where it's like, no, this is actually in

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fact true and you believe the opposite, or this is

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in fact false and you believe the opposite and it's

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beneficial for this reason or something.

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Speaker 1: And I would go further and make the argument that

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even in the case of this cancer diagnosis thing, believing

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that you will recover is not necessarily.

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Speaker 5: The best way to go about things.

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Speaker 1: If you believe for sure, like if you are convinced

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you will recover, then you don't prepare will you don't

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prepare any sort of documents, You don't change your life

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in any way so that your family and because you

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got it paired, because you don't need to, because you're

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going to recover. And I'm talking about belief, Like when

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I asked about believing true things, you are convinced that

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you're going to recover.

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Speaker 2: So even if it is true that you are going.

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Speaker 1: To recover, believing you will recover is unwarranted at the time,

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and it can produce a bad outcome, you know, just

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just giving somebody can.

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Speaker 7: I can address both of those perspectives. Okay, First of all,

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I would say that believing that you'll recover doesn't necessarily

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mean that you won't hedge against the situation that you

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won't as in creating a living will and things like that.

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Speaker 6: So I would just you know, uh, but if.

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Speaker 7: We're talking about believing in something that is demonstrably false,

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then I'm not sure I would say that, yes, that

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is a good thing.

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Speaker 1: Well, I'm not even talking about things that are demonstrably false.

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I'm talking about believing things together that you're not supported

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by evidence, Right, I'm talking about I am convinced there's

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a giant diamond buried in my backyard, and that once

401
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I get enough equipment in here, once I can afford

402
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a digger and I go in and I dig into

403
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my backyard deep enough, I will get a giant diamond

404
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and become the world's richest man. I'm convinced that that's true.

405
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That might be true, but it's unsupported by the current evidence.

406
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That's that's the case I'm talking about. So I'm not

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saying it's false. I'm saying it's unsupported by the current evidence.

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I have, No, I have insufficient evidence to justify my

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belief in that.

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Speaker 2: Do you is that? Does that make sense?

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Speaker 6: Like?

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Speaker 2: That's the space we're dealing with.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, that makes that makes sense?

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Speaker 6: And no, that would be not good.

415
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Speaker 7: I mean, but that's I guess we're we're talking about

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different types of situations.

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Speaker 2: Are we are? We hold on? Hold on?

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Speaker 1: In my analogy, the afterlife is the diamond if you

419
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didn't pick up on it. So if I live my

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life preparing to dig up the diamond and there was

421
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never a diamond, haven't I wasted a ton of resources

422
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gathering my digging equipment, surveying my yard, telling people just wait,

423
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I don't need to work very hard to get a

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career going. I'm going to get my diamond here in

425
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a little bit. And then it turns out there's no diamond.

426
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Isn't that a problem? Didn't I waste a bunch of time, resources,

427
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and missed opportunities?

428
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Speaker 7: Well, in a more literal interpretation of that example, it

429
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would be that someone believes that they'll have an afterlife

430
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where they meet their lost loved ones again, and when

431
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they die, if the truth is that there.

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Speaker 6: Is nothing in.

433
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Speaker 1: It's not and they spent their life tithing hold on,

434
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Let's talk about everything that comes with that belief.

435
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Speaker 2: I'm trying.

436
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Speaker 1: I'm saying you're convinced. Let's say that Christianity is true.

437
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So what comes with that? You're convinced you're going to

438
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see your loved ones. So the following things come with that.

439
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A lot of people end up tithing ten percent of

440
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their income to their church. They spend a lot of

441
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time praying, They spend a lot of time worrying about,

442
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in a guilty sense of all the other baggage that

443
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comes with their religious beliefs. All of these things are

444
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costs that you accrue while you are assuming with insufficient

445
00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:16,519
evidence that the book that tells you you're going to

446
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see your Weblums is true.

447
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Speaker 2: What are your thoughts there, J Mike.

448
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Speaker 4: Yeah, I absolutely here with everything you said, And to me,

449
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it just rears the ugly head of like golibility, Like

450
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if do you just want like because in general like

451
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this idea of like I want to believe more true things,

452
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as many true things as possible, at least about as

453
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false things as possible, Like one if I'm believing a

454
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lot of things that are false, right, and that I

455
00:22:42,839 --> 00:22:44,839
still really want to believe, like I still want to

456
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believe more true things, but I'm just a you know,

457
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I believe this thing and not for good reason. All

458
00:22:49,519 --> 00:22:51,720
all that's being expressed is like I'm a gullible person.

459
00:22:51,799 --> 00:22:54,359
I don't care about methodology and Conman can get me

460
00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:57,200
really easily and like that, let me just like phrase

461
00:22:57,240 --> 00:22:59,400
it in a really easy way. Do you want like,

462
00:22:59,559 --> 00:23:01,759
is it is it better for you to have methodologies

463
00:23:01,799 --> 00:23:05,960
that protect you from conmen, NFT scams, crypto scams, people

464
00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:06,759
selling like.

465
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Speaker 5: Reiki camp events, like all of this shit.

466
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Speaker 2: There's so many.

467
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Speaker 4: Grifters out there, right, Would you rather be somebody that

468
00:23:14,319 --> 00:23:16,680
has that goes on the side of no methodology in

469
00:23:16,759 --> 00:23:18,599
order to protect yourself from things that are true?

470
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Speaker 5: Or that? Is that worth the cost?

471
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Speaker 3: Is it worth going?

472
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Speaker 5: You know what?

473
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Speaker 4: There are some of these things that make me feel

474
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a little bit better. I get good feelings, and it's

475
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worth the cost of potentially being conned by these conmen,

476
00:23:32,079 --> 00:23:34,839
losing my money in NFT scams, scams and all this kind.

477
00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:37,799
Speaker 5: Of stuff, right, is what I'm saying making sense?

478
00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:40,200
Speaker 4: Like it seems like it's very obvious that if you

479
00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:42,920
pick this other side, you're just like it's okay for

480
00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:45,880
those things to happen because it makes I still feel

481
00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:47,720
good at the end of the day. And it's like,

482
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:52,720
I don't know, man, like I'd rather not feel great internally,

483
00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:56,160
like lying to myself and just have it just be

484
00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:58,960
like a little sadder. But knowing that I have some

485
00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:01,720
integrity in a back but and I care about the truth, right,

486
00:24:01,759 --> 00:24:04,440
it seems like more important to me.

487
00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:06,680
Speaker 2: I don't know, what are your thoughts.

488
00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:12,079
Speaker 7: LEVI okay, Well, there was a lot unloaded between Yeah.

489
00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:14,039
Speaker 5: Sorry, I kind of cut like a wrestling for a them.

490
00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:20,319
Speaker 7: Sorry yeah, yeah, yeah. And my first thought.

491
00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:24,200
Speaker 6: Is there's a lot of equivocation there. But I don't know.

492
00:24:24,839 --> 00:24:28,839
Speaker 5: Let me was let me maybe, let me let.

493
00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:33,720
Speaker 7: Me clarify that I'm not exactly firm in my belief

494
00:24:33,799 --> 00:24:36,680
at this point. I've I've lived my life this way,

495
00:24:37,559 --> 00:24:39,440
and I've had some people.

496
00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:41,119
Speaker 6: Give me.

497
00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:48,160
Speaker 7: Reasons to start really questioning what I believe.

498
00:24:49,559 --> 00:24:51,400
Speaker 6: And I'm not.

499
00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:56,200
Speaker 7: Sure that a grifter is exactly the same as a preacher.

500
00:24:56,759 --> 00:25:00,000
Speaker 1: Well tell me the difference then, between a preacher who

501
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:02,400
who doesn't believe what he's saying but is just in

502
00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:06,000
it for the money, the free house, the tax free

503
00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:09,079
free house from his church and all the benefits that come.

504
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:11,799
Let's take it to the worst case scenarios, right, the

505
00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:16,000
preachers that that fly, the private jets, et cetera. So

506
00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:19,680
hold on, hold on, no, no, hold on, just let

507
00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:22,319
me hold on. I'm asking you a question, how do

508
00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:24,920
I tell the difference between a preacher who's just like

509
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:28,519
I am no longer convinced that this is true exactly,

510
00:25:28,559 --> 00:25:30,880
and I'm in it for the free house, the free food,

511
00:25:31,279 --> 00:25:33,960
the status in society, the fact that I don't have

512
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:37,039
to go get a real job, quote unquote. How do

513
00:25:37,079 --> 00:25:40,119
I tell the difference between that guy and the preacher

514
00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:42,119
who's doing it because he believes it.

515
00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:43,759
Speaker 2: Can you distinguish between the two?

516
00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:48,920
Speaker 6: Maybe not?

517
00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:54,680
Speaker 1: Okay, So the motivation of the speaker really doesn't enter

518
00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:57,599
into it, whether they're a con man or they're genuinely believed.

519
00:25:57,599 --> 00:25:59,920
Speaker 5: They've got a bridge to tell you and you you.

520
00:26:00,279 --> 00:26:00,960
Speaker 2: Don't know that.

521
00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:03,319
Speaker 3: Like that response, like charging me.

522
00:26:03,279 --> 00:26:06,799
Speaker 4: With the equivocation, it felt like rude because it wasn't even

523
00:26:06,799 --> 00:26:09,640
close to I don't maybe you could identify if like,

524
00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:12,400
maybe you could identify equivocation.

525
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:14,640
Speaker 2: There, but I would not let that stand.

526
00:26:14,799 --> 00:26:16,880
Speaker 5: Yeah, I'd committed no fallacy of equivocation.

527
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:18,480
Speaker 3: And the reason why maybe I maybe I did.

528
00:26:18,519 --> 00:26:20,160
Speaker 4: I take that back, but in that case I didn't

529
00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:22,599
because you don't know that the person that's selling you

530
00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:25,559
the goods is a grifter. I mean, that's that's what

531
00:26:25,559 --> 00:26:29,119
we're trying to argue for that developing a better methodology,

532
00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:31,799
a better sense of knowing what's right versus not gives

533
00:26:31,839 --> 00:26:34,400
those alarm bells that go, this guy's a fucking grifter,

534
00:26:34,599 --> 00:26:36,440
which is why a lot of us in the community

535
00:26:36,799 --> 00:26:38,680
have those bells go up and you see different people

536
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:40,640
and go, that's a fucking grifter. That's a fucking grifter.

537
00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:42,160
That's a fucking grifter. And then we look at the

538
00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:44,440
rest of the internet. They're like, this guy speaks so

539
00:26:44,559 --> 00:26:48,359
much wisdom. He's just it's so good. They don't see that.

540
00:26:48,519 --> 00:26:50,960
They don't see that, they don't see that, and we

541
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:53,640
do see this. We do see this guy is legitimately

542
00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:56,000
a grifter, legitimately a scammer. So it's weird to like

543
00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:59,160
take my example and then go, well you know this that, No,

544
00:26:59,240 --> 00:26:59,599
you don't.

545
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:01,799
Speaker 5: I the point is to have a methodology.

546
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:04,200
Speaker 1: I get what Levi's coming from, and I think LEVI,

547
00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:06,559
please continue. I think I hear you trolling to sort

548
00:27:06,559 --> 00:27:08,079
of change the attack that you're taking.

549
00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:12,599
Speaker 7: Yeah, I'm sorry, I'm just trying to say that there's

550
00:27:12,599 --> 00:27:16,480
a difference between someone who genuinely believes in what they're

551
00:27:16,519 --> 00:27:18,000
saying and someone who doesn't.

552
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:21,400
Speaker 1: And but not to you do you acknowledge Do you

553
00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:26,640
acknowledge our point that the person's knowledge, confidence, level, motivations

554
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:32,240
are irrelevant to what you you adjudicate to be sufficient evidence. Exactly,

555
00:27:32,559 --> 00:27:35,119
if I have an alarm bell that goes off for grifters,

556
00:27:35,559 --> 00:27:38,319
hold on, hold on, hold on. If I have an

557
00:27:38,319 --> 00:27:40,480
alarm bell that goes off for grifters, I also have

558
00:27:40,519 --> 00:27:42,400
an alarm bell that goes off for people who just

559
00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:44,640
don't know what the fuck they're talking about. I have

560
00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:47,400
an alarm bell for YouTube influencers who are just trying

561
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:50,079
to get views and have no idea like they they

562
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:54,079
they they may could be convinced that their latest trend

563
00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:57,359
of rubbing illumina forehead.

564
00:27:57,519 --> 00:28:01,160
Speaker 4: Professor Dave has a whole archive of these fucking people,

565
00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:05,920
and that people believe these people, like thousands, even millions

566
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:07,960
of people believe these people, and he has to go

567
00:28:08,039 --> 00:28:10,880
out of his way to help educate and provide the

568
00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:14,359
tools for people to just even understand that they're being conned.

569
00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:17,359
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, like put it into real world examples. We

570
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:19,960
are in the midst of a measles outbreak in the

571
00:28:20,039 --> 00:28:22,279
United States, the like of which we have not seen

572
00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:26,559
since the disease was technically eliminated decades ago. And the

573
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:30,319
reason we're in it is not necessarily because people went

574
00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:34,279
out there and said, wahaha, I don't believe that there's

575
00:28:34,279 --> 00:28:36,880
anything wrong with vaccines, but I'm gonna make money by

576
00:28:37,039 --> 00:28:39,640
convincing people there are I think some of them were

577
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:41,839
like that, but some of them were fooled by people,

578
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:45,599
and they generally went and presented those arguments and convinced

579
00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:49,839
people on insufficient evidence to not give their children the

580
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:53,880
measles vaccine. To break it down to a real word, example.

581
00:28:53,799 --> 00:28:59,039
Speaker 7: Against more isn't religion necessarily, but criptors in general.

582
00:29:00,559 --> 00:29:04,279
Speaker 1: I'm arguing against accepting things on insufficient evidence. That's why

583
00:29:04,319 --> 00:29:06,680
I said at the very beginning, let's break it down

584
00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:08,000
to a bigger category.

585
00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:15,279
Speaker 2: Come on my position. No no, no, no, no, no no.

586
00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:18,359
Why I asked you? Is it better?

587
00:29:18,799 --> 00:29:20,359
Speaker 5: I'm just animated? Shouldn't it?

588
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:24,599
Speaker 1: Shouldn't it be that you would want to believe as

589
00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:28,160
many true things and as few false things as possible,

590
00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:31,039
even if some of the false things give you comfort.

591
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:35,440
Isn't it better to believe only that for which you

592
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:38,799
have sufficient evidence? If I believe, if it makes me comfortable,

593
00:29:38,839 --> 00:29:41,799
thinking there's not a tiger in the grass outside my cave,

594
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:46,079
and I'm wrong, I'm gonna get eaten by the tiger, right,

595
00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:48,440
so I should.

596
00:29:48,519 --> 00:29:49,200
Speaker 2: As a whole.

597
00:29:49,359 --> 00:29:52,799
Speaker 1: My philosophy in life is try to believe as many

598
00:29:52,799 --> 00:29:55,599
few things, as many things as that are true as possible,

599
00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:57,200
and as few things as false are trouble. And I

600
00:29:57,240 --> 00:30:00,480
was a little surprised to hear you say I don't

601
00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:02,640
necessarily agree with that, and I just want to explore that.

602
00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:06,200
And my first category of exploring that is shouldn't you

603
00:30:06,279 --> 00:30:10,599
have sufficient evidence before you accept a claim? It doesn't

604
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:13,200
go to the motivation of the person making the claim.

605
00:30:13,279 --> 00:30:16,039
I don't care whether the pastor truly believes there's an

606
00:30:16,079 --> 00:30:19,599
afterlife or if he's just in it for the money, irrelevant.

607
00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:22,559
My point is you should assess the claim.

608
00:30:24,039 --> 00:30:31,400
Speaker 7: But I think that in when every example gets to

609
00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:36,440
the extreme, then there are a lot of philosophies that

610
00:30:37,119 --> 00:30:41,160
would fail but hold up in a more.

611
00:30:41,839 --> 00:30:45,640
Speaker 2: Mild what's the extreme example and how does it?

612
00:30:45,759 --> 00:30:48,279
Speaker 1: How are the rules different for analyzing that than a

613
00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:49,359
regular example.

614
00:30:50,039 --> 00:30:56,119
Speaker 7: Well, so, if there's somebody that who I trust, who

615
00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:02,000
truly believes what they're saying, it's not the same as

616
00:31:02,039 --> 00:31:04,880
a grifter who's trying to rob me.

617
00:31:05,759 --> 00:31:07,960
Speaker 1: I don't think you've ever seen a good grifter because

618
00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:09,839
you're coming in it with the assumption that you will

619
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:14,160
know that your trust is earned and that you have

620
00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:16,839
the same level of evidence and analysis of a grifter.

621
00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:20,640
And again, the grifter part is just an example. But

622
00:31:20,759 --> 00:31:23,319
as I said after the grifter part, it could be

623
00:31:23,359 --> 00:31:26,559
a genuine believer who's wrong. Your sincere friend that you've

624
00:31:26,599 --> 00:31:29,480
known for twenty years could just be wrong. How can

625
00:31:29,519 --> 00:31:32,559
we tell if your sincere friend is wrong about the

626
00:31:32,559 --> 00:31:35,160
claims they're asserting? Do we have any sort of method

627
00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:38,039
we've developed to containing whether or not your friend is right?

628
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:40,160
Can you stop talking and listen to the question.

629
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:41,559
Speaker 3: You can hear them all.

630
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:43,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're talking while I'm asking you a question? What

631
00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:48,799
method do we have to determine whether your sincerely believing

632
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:52,000
friend is right or wrong about whatever claim they're asserting?

633
00:31:52,839 --> 00:31:53,000
Speaker 5: So?

634
00:31:53,079 --> 00:31:57,559
Speaker 7: What method do I have that my sincerely believing friend

635
00:31:58,799 --> 00:32:03,839
is is genuine in the claim that they're as hurting?

636
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:08,039
Speaker 1: No, not genuine, that the claims they are asserting are

637
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:14,440
actually true. They come to you and they say, I

638
00:32:14,519 --> 00:32:18,359
had a tuna fish sandwich for lunch. What evidence do

639
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:21,519
you have to support that claim to accept the claim

640
00:32:21,519 --> 00:32:25,000
that your friend is making. You've heard of tuna fish sandwiches,

641
00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:27,680
so that's some evidence. You know your friend. You know

642
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:29,960
your friend to be honest. You know that people eat

643
00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:32,960
tuna fish sandwiches for lunch. There's nothing out of the

644
00:32:33,079 --> 00:32:35,680
ordinary about tuna. You've been to the store and you've

645
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:38,480
seen that tuna exists. You've had tuna fish sandwiches yourself.

646
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:41,039
We've got a whole bunch of evidence, right, And you've

647
00:32:41,079 --> 00:32:43,119
got the reputation of your friend and the history of

648
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:45,839
your friend and all of that stuff, And the consequences

649
00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:49,039
of believing your friend are minuscule. If your friend's pulling

650
00:32:49,079 --> 00:32:51,440
one over on you, not telling you the truth, who cares.

651
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:52,240
Speaker 2: What's the consequence?

652
00:32:52,319 --> 00:32:56,799
Speaker 1: Right, So it's probably sufficient evidence to believe your claims,

653
00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:01,319
your friend's claim that they have a tuna fish sandwich

654
00:33:01,319 --> 00:33:01,759
for lunch.

655
00:33:02,079 --> 00:33:02,240
Speaker 2: Right.

656
00:33:02,799 --> 00:33:05,400
Speaker 1: Sure, what if they told you they had a tuna

657
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:07,480
fish sandwich on a UFO?

658
00:33:08,839 --> 00:33:15,160
Speaker 7: So I guess the comparison would be that religious claims

659
00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:16,440
are equivalent to.

660
00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:20,400
Speaker 6: Alien abduction claims.

661
00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:24,359
Speaker 1: No, I'm asking you a question, a genuine question. I'm

662
00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:27,440
asking you a question. What would what would the analysis

663
00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:29,799
you would go through if your friend said.

664
00:33:29,559 --> 00:33:31,359
Speaker 2: That, I'm not talking about religion here.

665
00:33:32,279 --> 00:33:35,559
Speaker 6: Yeah, but I wanted to talk about religion.

666
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:39,839
Speaker 1: I know, and we'll get there, But you are I

667
00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:43,319
need to build the house brick by brick. So this

668
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:47,160
brick is dealing with your assertion that you just know

669
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:50,559
better because it's your friend. Okay, you trust your friend

670
00:33:50,559 --> 00:33:52,319
more than the con man. So I'm taking the conment

671
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:54,519
out of it, and I'm saying, Okay, he said he

672
00:33:54,559 --> 00:33:56,359
had a tune of fish sandwich. We've got a lot

673
00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:58,640
of evidence and no reason to disbelieve him, and it's

674
00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:01,319
a mundane claim. Now he says, oh, by the way,

675
00:34:01,359 --> 00:34:04,319
I ate it while I was on a spaceship. What

676
00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:07,000
sort of analysis should go through your head? That's all

677
00:34:07,039 --> 00:34:09,239
I'm asking. What analysis would you use?

678
00:34:10,039 --> 00:34:10,599
Speaker 6: I guess I.

679
00:34:10,519 --> 00:34:16,280
Speaker 7: Would ask for more specifics about the situation that put

680
00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:20,800
in on the UFO. Sure, yeah, so I would be

681
00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:23,039
seeking evidence.

682
00:34:24,199 --> 00:34:27,840
Speaker 1: Okay, And you recognize in your head that you've never

683
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:32,960
seen an alien spaceship, right right, Yes, And it's never

684
00:34:33,039 --> 00:34:37,239
seemed to have been accurately reported or conclusively reported that

685
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:40,400
we've seen alien spaceships on Earth, even though there's some rumors.

686
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:45,519
But the evidence for alien spaceships existing is much less

687
00:34:45,599 --> 00:34:48,159
than the evidence for tunifish sandwiches existing.

688
00:34:48,199 --> 00:34:53,079
Speaker 2: Would you agree with that? Yeah, okay, so.

689
00:34:53,079 --> 00:34:56,039
Speaker 1: You are there is a there's an analysis going on

690
00:34:56,199 --> 00:34:58,960
to say, well, oh and the claim that I ate

691
00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:02,400
a tuna fish sandwich is a mundane claim, whereas the

692
00:35:02,599 --> 00:35:05,559
claim that I ate it on an alien spaceship is

693
00:35:05,599 --> 00:35:06,719
an extraordinary claim.

694
00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:07,599
Speaker 2: Would you agree with that?

695
00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:12,480
Speaker 6: I guess uh. I would have to.

696
00:35:14,119 --> 00:35:17,440
Speaker 7: Understand the difference between extraordinary and mundane.

697
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:22,400
Speaker 1: But yeah, so mundane would be every day normal, not surprising,

698
00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:28,039
where extraordinary is extraordinary. It's like not ordinary, it's it's

699
00:35:28,079 --> 00:35:31,199
like a super unusual, very weird.

700
00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:33,000
Speaker 2: It has a lot.

701
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:36,320
Speaker 1: Of like consequences if it's actually true, right, it's something

702
00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:37,360
we've never seen before.

703
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:39,679
Speaker 2: Maybe, so comparing between the.

704
00:35:39,639 --> 00:35:43,800
Speaker 1: Two tuoni fish sandwich versus alien spaceship, tuoni fish sandwich

705
00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:48,960
is boring and alien spaceship is like worldview breaking for

706
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:50,440
everybody on the planet.

707
00:35:50,679 --> 00:35:54,880
Speaker 7: Yeah, well, if I'm if I could say that obviously

708
00:35:55,000 --> 00:36:00,440
the UFO spaceship in this situation would be the claim

709
00:36:00,519 --> 00:36:03,320
of religion.

710
00:36:03,039 --> 00:36:06,519
Speaker 1: Or God or I promise you I'm not talking about that.

711
00:36:06,559 --> 00:36:10,360
I'm literally just talking about the Spaceship. I honestly, I'm

712
00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:12,159
just talking about the Spaceship right now. I want us

713
00:36:12,159 --> 00:36:14,679
to agree with the methodology before we even turn and

714
00:36:14,679 --> 00:36:17,840
look at religion. I just want to understand the methodology.

715
00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:20,840
If somebody comes to me, let's say, I'm Steve's Jobs.

716
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:22,239
Speaker 2: You know who Steve Jobs was?

717
00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:25,880
Speaker 6: Yeah? I know who's Steve Jobs.

718
00:36:26,119 --> 00:36:27,400
Speaker 2: Do you remember how he died.

719
00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:29,320
Speaker 6: Cancer?

720
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:30,519
Speaker 5: Right?

721
00:36:30,599 --> 00:36:33,360
Speaker 1: But why did he die of a treatable form of cancer?

722
00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:35,199
Speaker 6: I don't know.

723
00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:39,440
Speaker 1: Because he became convinced through people around him, that some

724
00:36:39,599 --> 00:36:44,039
alternative medicine would be a better treatment early on than actual,

725
00:36:44,599 --> 00:36:51,280
scientifically proven medicine. And he went with this wu you know, acupuncture, diet,

726
00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:55,800
all sorts of things instead of what science had shown us, right,

727
00:36:56,519 --> 00:37:00,920
And because of that, his treatable form of cancer killed him. Okay,

728
00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:04,280
so I'm not talking about religion right now. I'm just

729
00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:07,840
talking about when you don't believe the things that have

730
00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:10,039
been proven to be true, or when you believe things

731
00:37:10,039 --> 00:37:13,239
based on insufficient evidence, you can hurt yourself or those

732
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:16,159
around you. And in my example with the Spaceship, I'm

733
00:37:16,199 --> 00:37:18,320
just trying to get you to acknowledge that there is

734
00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:21,599
a difference between claiming that you ate a tuna fish

735
00:37:21,599 --> 00:37:24,880
sandwich and the claiming that you ate a tunafish sandwich

736
00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:27,199
on the spaceship. And I think you demonstrated that because

737
00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:29,280
you were like fine with the space the tuna fish,

738
00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:31,880
but as soon as the space Alien spaceship was brought up,

739
00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:34,679
you had a bunch of questions. You got very cautious.

740
00:37:35,039 --> 00:37:36,280
I don't know if you were looking for me to

741
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:38,039
trap you. I'm not trying to do that. I'm literally

742
00:37:38,079 --> 00:37:40,639
talking about the spaceship. But it demonstrates that there's a

743
00:37:40,679 --> 00:37:42,880
difference between those two claims, doesn't it.

744
00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:48,679
Speaker 6: I'm just saying that, can we move on from the

745
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:49,599
example and.

746
00:37:49,559 --> 00:37:52,360
Speaker 1: Talk about I noticed every time I ask you these questions,

747
00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:55,239
instead of answering them, you say what about or you

748
00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:58,840
say something else. I'm just trying to, like, in order

749
00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:01,599
for this conversation to work, I have to see whether

750
00:38:01,679 --> 00:38:02,719
or not we agree on the.

751
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:05,519
Speaker 2: On the building block. So do you agree.

752
00:38:07,079 --> 00:38:11,360
Speaker 1: The building block is I'm taking conmen concept out of

753
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:14,440
the conversation. I'm just looking at claims, and I'm trying

754
00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:19,000
to differentiate between claims that are mundane and have no

755
00:38:19,199 --> 00:38:22,719
consequence to them being true or false and claims that

756
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:26,840
are extraordinary and have a severe consequence to them being

757
00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:32,079
true or false. For example, Steve Jobs, this diet and

758
00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:35,800
Eastern medicine or whatever it was he did can cure

759
00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:38,360
cancer better than all of the experiments we've run on.

760
00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:40,639
Speaker 2: It was an extraordinary claim.

761
00:38:41,079 --> 00:38:43,639
Speaker 1: He chose to believe it or he became convinced of

762
00:38:43,679 --> 00:38:47,360
its truth, and that contributed to his early death.

763
00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:50,079
Speaker 2: I think, just a famous example.

764
00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:52,840
Speaker 6: Truth face value. I'll take that as true.

765
00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:57,400
Speaker 7: Sure, yes, absolutely, And i want to make sure that

766
00:38:57,440 --> 00:38:59,039
you understand I'm not.

767
00:38:59,079 --> 00:39:01,719
Speaker 6: Here to try and win any kind of argument. I'm

768
00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:04,000
just kind of curious.

769
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:08,599
Speaker 7: And I have you know, like I've said, I have

770
00:39:10,079 --> 00:39:13,559
questions about my own beliefs and stuff like that.

771
00:39:13,679 --> 00:39:15,280
Speaker 6: But it doesn't mean I'm not going.

772
00:39:15,159 --> 00:39:19,079
Speaker 7: To question the premises that you bring up.

773
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:23,760
Speaker 1: Absolutely no, I encourage that. I just when you ask

774
00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:25,480
a question, I'm going to try to answer it. When

775
00:39:25,519 --> 00:39:27,199
I ask a question, I appreciate if you try to

776
00:39:27,199 --> 00:39:28,280
answer it. That's all I'm saying.

777
00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:31,039
Speaker 7: So yeah, sure, Sorry. If I'm not answering questions, it

778
00:39:31,119 --> 00:39:36,360
just feels like I'm not getting a lot of time

779
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:45,360
to sort of explain my thought process during the answering process.

780
00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:48,440
It seems like there's a lot of push back as

781
00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:54,400
soon as I don't immediately accept the premise as it is.

782
00:39:55,039 --> 00:39:59,760
Speaker 2: Well, that's because to clarify, that's because.

783
00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:04,760
Speaker 1: Lot hold on, hold on, just real quick, okay. That's

784
00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:06,800
because I thought it would be about a twenty second

785
00:40:07,119 --> 00:40:10,239
set up to the conversation. I thought the setup would be,

786
00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:12,880
we all agree that we should only believe things when

787
00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:15,280
we have sufficient evidence, and it's better to believe true

788
00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:18,360
things and false things, and the tuna fish example would

789
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:20,400
be much easier to believe than.

790
00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:21,280
Speaker 2: The spaceship example.

791
00:40:21,519 --> 00:40:23,440
Speaker 1: That was about a twenty second I was expecting.

792
00:40:23,519 --> 00:40:26,679
Speaker 2: Yep, yep, agree, agree, agree. Okay, Now let's talk about religion.

793
00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:30,039
Speaker 1: So just so you understand, that's all I was trying

794
00:40:30,039 --> 00:40:32,559
to do is to set that up, and you, I

795
00:40:32,639 --> 00:40:36,320
think I get the sense we're hesitant to agree with

796
00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:39,639
any of that for fear of a trap or anything

797
00:40:39,679 --> 00:40:42,039
like that. So why don't I start over and turn

798
00:40:42,079 --> 00:40:44,519
it over to you. Why don't I turn it over

799
00:40:44,519 --> 00:40:47,320
to you and say, Okay, given all of that, what

800
00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:52,239
are your concerns about applying that logic to religious claims?

801
00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:58,639
Speaker 7: Okay, Well, I would say that claims about alien spaceships

802
00:40:58,639 --> 00:41:05,079
aren't exactly equivalent to claims about religion, and that religion

803
00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:17,760
has centuries long dedicated theologists and philosophers who establish belief

804
00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:20,360
systems and things.

805
00:41:20,079 --> 00:41:24,280
Speaker 6: Like that, whereas modern UFO.

806
00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:39,519
Speaker 7: Claims aren't based in any sort of long term I'm sorry,

807
00:41:39,719 --> 00:41:45,719
logical reasoning or something like that, like that's that's sort

808
00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:49,679
of my thought processes. It's it's not exactly equivalent. I

809
00:41:49,679 --> 00:41:52,239
guess it serves as a good example.

810
00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:57,599
Speaker 6: I'm not I'm not arguing against that. It's just there's

811
00:41:57,639 --> 00:41:59,519
a lot of difference.

812
00:41:59,199 --> 00:42:04,079
Speaker 7: And the differentferences are subtle, but they're worth addressing.

813
00:42:05,519 --> 00:42:09,719
Speaker 1: So I agree they are literally the same thing. But

814
00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:13,159
here's the problem I have with what you just pointed out.

815
00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:17,679
I think you're making one of two logical fallacies. One

816
00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:22,920
is argumentum ad popularum. Something is true because a lot

817
00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:26,639
of people have believed in it, or putting a twist

818
00:42:26,639 --> 00:42:30,079
on it. It's not necessarily true, but it is categorically

819
00:42:30,119 --> 00:42:33,400
different than the spaceship claim or the diamond in my

820
00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:36,239
backyard claim, or this this.

821
00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:38,159
Speaker 2: WU treatment will cure your cancer claim.

822
00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:40,679
Speaker 1: It's different because of the number of people who have

823
00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:45,840
believed it, or another fallacy it's related, it's different because

824
00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:49,079
it's been around for a long time. Right, one of

825
00:42:49,119 --> 00:42:51,599
those two seem to be the argument that you're making.

826
00:42:53,079 --> 00:42:55,719
Speaker 6: Can you explore Yeah, I.

827
00:42:55,679 --> 00:43:00,480
Speaker 7: Would say that I'm trying to say that religion is

828
00:43:00,599 --> 00:43:04,840
more akin to philosophical beliefs than to.

829
00:43:07,239 --> 00:43:09,079
Speaker 6: Beliefs in UFO.

830
00:43:09,199 --> 00:43:11,159
Speaker 8: So sort of.

831
00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:22,239
Speaker 7: The various philosophies like humanitarianism or utilitarianism and things like

832
00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:29,480
that are argued in much the same way as various

833
00:43:29,559 --> 00:43:31,440
religious beliefs are.

834
00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:36,559
Speaker 1: But we're not dealing with humanitarianism and utilitarianism. We're dealing

835
00:43:36,559 --> 00:43:40,920
with a branch of philosophy called epistemology. And I agree

836
00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:46,360
all of this, all of this is a philosophical argument,

837
00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:49,719
but it's within this branch called epistemology, i e. What

838
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:54,239
actually exists and how can you tell it exists? So, yes,

839
00:43:54,320 --> 00:43:58,119
it is all philosophical, but the fact that the fact is,

840
00:43:58,239 --> 00:44:00,639
the claim is there is a God and there is

841
00:44:00,679 --> 00:44:03,199
a afterlife, and it's not some like let's stare at

842
00:44:03,199 --> 00:44:07,360
our belly buttons and say it would be utially, it

843
00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:11,440
would be of utility should the afterlife exists. No, that's

844
00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:13,320
not what's being preached in the streets. That's not why

845
00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:15,719
people are voting for Christian nationalism. That's not all of

846
00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:18,639
this stuff. It is there is actually a God and

847
00:44:18,679 --> 00:44:20,360
he wants me to do this, and he'll be mad

848
00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:25,719
if I don't do this. It's an argument about actual existence.

849
00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:28,280
Speaker 2: So am I wrong about that?

850
00:44:29,119 --> 00:44:30,840
Speaker 6: Toward Christianity?

851
00:44:31,079 --> 00:44:33,760
Speaker 1: I guess I didn't hear your answers talking when I

852
00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:36,440
was could you please, could you preally start again? Because

853
00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:38,440
you were talking when I was asking the question. So

854
00:44:38,559 --> 00:44:42,679
my question was, this is all epistemology, This is all

855
00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:46,480
how do we know what actually exists? And can we

856
00:44:46,559 --> 00:44:50,760
prove it? And so what I am I wrong about?

857
00:44:50,760 --> 00:44:51,760
That is my question to you?

858
00:44:52,360 --> 00:44:56,199
Speaker 7: I'm not sure because I was going to ask could.

859
00:44:56,039 --> 00:44:57,000
Speaker 6: We get some more.

860
00:44:58,440 --> 00:45:03,280
Speaker 7: Concrete, realistic examples rather than hypotheticals.

861
00:45:06,679 --> 00:45:09,559
Speaker 2: So I don't know a more concrete example.

862
00:45:09,639 --> 00:45:12,639
Speaker 1: Then there is a God, and there is an afterlife,

863
00:45:12,639 --> 00:45:14,239
and there is a hell, and you're going to go

864
00:45:14,280 --> 00:45:14,880
to one of them.

865
00:45:14,920 --> 00:45:16,880
Speaker 2: Isn't that the most important question in all of this?

866
00:45:18,239 --> 00:45:23,800
Speaker 7: Well I'm a well I'm a universalist, and.

867
00:45:23,639 --> 00:45:26,119
Speaker 2: Well let's start there. Yeah, what do you believe in? Why?

868
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:27,280
Speaker 5: Okay?

869
00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:36,159
Speaker 7: Yeah, sure, I believe that everyone will be joined together

870
00:45:36,199 --> 00:45:38,679
in heaven after we're gone.

871
00:45:39,159 --> 00:45:40,000
Speaker 2: Why do you believe then?

872
00:45:41,719 --> 00:45:46,880
Speaker 7: And I think the answer to why would see mostly because.

873
00:45:47,719 --> 00:45:52,519
Speaker 6: I was raised with that tradition and that the community

874
00:45:52,559 --> 00:45:54,119
around the supports.

875
00:45:53,679 --> 00:46:00,599
Speaker 7: That tradition, and if you're looking for, you know, logical

876
00:46:01,719 --> 00:46:06,679
sort of concrete evidence for that, I absolutely would say

877
00:46:06,679 --> 00:46:07,159
that I.

878
00:46:07,039 --> 00:46:08,119
Speaker 6: Cannot provide that.

879
00:46:09,159 --> 00:46:10,039
Speaker 2: Does that bother you?

880
00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:12,039
Speaker 6: Well?

881
00:46:12,159 --> 00:46:19,199
Speaker 7: No, because whenever I try and ask questions and say that,

882
00:46:20,519 --> 00:46:24,800
you know, I'm questioning as believe, I'm not met with

883
00:46:24,920 --> 00:46:25,639
any sort of.

884
00:46:27,239 --> 00:46:34,960
Speaker 6: Real world evidence. I'm met with conversations about UFOs.

885
00:46:33,880 --> 00:46:36,320
Speaker 1: And no, I'm asking does it bother you that you

886
00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:39,360
don't have any evidence to support your firmly held belief?

887
00:46:39,599 --> 00:46:42,159
Speaker 2: Well, okay, I.

888
00:46:42,159 --> 00:46:44,119
Speaker 1: Don't see what that has to do with UFOs, But

889
00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:52,239
so you're not bothered that you believe something without sufficient evidence? Yes, okay,

890
00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:56,280
I think that's true of a lot of people. The

891
00:46:57,239 --> 00:47:01,000
question I have of people who aren't bother that is

892
00:47:01,239 --> 00:47:03,639
along the lines of what I've been talking about all along,

893
00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:08,599
is doesn't that open you up to hurting yourself or.

894
00:47:08,599 --> 00:47:14,360
Speaker 5: Others in what kind of way?

895
00:47:14,480 --> 00:47:16,519
Speaker 7: Like we've talked about grifters.

896
00:47:16,639 --> 00:47:20,760
Speaker 6: Sure, but there's a difference in believing one thing and

897
00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:21,760
believing another.

898
00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:26,559
Speaker 7: And just because I believe that God exists doesn't mean

899
00:47:26,639 --> 00:47:30,000
I'm automatically subject to.

900
00:47:31,519 --> 00:47:34,679
Speaker 6: Rifters of all sorts.

901
00:47:35,360 --> 00:47:38,159
Speaker 1: Yeah, but grifters was an example of what you can

902
00:47:38,360 --> 00:47:42,320
be subjected to if you're gullible, not specifically this religious belief.

903
00:47:42,679 --> 00:47:46,239
Could you tell me if somebody proved to you tomorrow

904
00:47:46,480 --> 00:47:50,840
that there were no God, for example, right, how would

905
00:47:50,840 --> 00:47:54,159
you change what you do on a weekly basis?

906
00:47:56,280 --> 00:47:59,639
Speaker 7: Well, I guess if it was proved beyond a reasonable

907
00:47:59,760 --> 00:48:10,559
doubt that what I believe is absolutely untrue, then I

908
00:48:10,559 --> 00:48:15,480
would I would stop praying, okay, and I would stop

909
00:48:15,679 --> 00:48:20,519
worship being at church. I don't think I would stop

910
00:48:21,199 --> 00:48:23,159
communicating with the people.

911
00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:26,159
Speaker 2: That care about right absolutely.

912
00:48:25,639 --> 00:48:27,079
Speaker 6: Who also believe those things.

913
00:48:27,559 --> 00:48:29,679
Speaker 5: Sure, but if for me.

914
00:48:31,519 --> 00:48:36,559
Speaker 7: It was absolutely proof that there is no God, then sure, yeah,

915
00:48:36,639 --> 00:48:37,760
why wouldn't I?

916
00:48:37,760 --> 00:48:39,159
Speaker 6: I don't. I don't see reason.

917
00:48:40,119 --> 00:48:42,800
Speaker 1: So that's one little example of an answer to your question,

918
00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:45,679
right that, Well, if it was, if I'm wrong, I'm

919
00:48:45,679 --> 00:48:48,880
wasting a bunch of time and emotional energy on the

920
00:48:48,920 --> 00:48:50,840
acts of attending service praying.

921
00:48:50,960 --> 00:48:53,000
Speaker 2: I don't know if you tithe money or donate.

922
00:48:52,679 --> 00:48:55,760
Speaker 1: To those services that encourage people to believe those things.

923
00:48:55,880 --> 00:48:58,400
Universalists tend to be sort of hands off on that.

924
00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:01,559
So that's just one example, And then there's sort of

925
00:49:01,599 --> 00:49:06,559
a meta level where participating in this religious belief system

926
00:49:06,880 --> 00:49:12,000
is giving cover to other religious believers who either truly believe,

927
00:49:12,360 --> 00:49:14,840
are being convinced to believe, or would give up the

928
00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:19,159
belief were there fewer participants, and by you adding to

929
00:49:19,280 --> 00:49:21,800
their numbers, they look around and make the same argument

930
00:49:21,880 --> 00:49:25,039
you did, which is, Wow, so many people believe for

931
00:49:25,079 --> 00:49:26,840
so long, I guess I'm going to believe it too.

932
00:49:27,119 --> 00:49:29,920
So you know, there's x percent of the people in

933
00:49:29,960 --> 00:49:33,280
the room at any given church service are actually non believers,

934
00:49:33,280 --> 00:49:36,199
but they keep pretending they believe because they believe everybody

935
00:49:36,199 --> 00:49:40,119
else is pretending and that wastes their time, etc. There's

936
00:49:40,159 --> 00:49:46,320
other studied examples of how feigned religious belief or unsupported

937
00:49:46,440 --> 00:49:49,960
religious belief can harm people. I'm sure you've experienced in

938
00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:53,920
your life various people who say things like, oh man,

939
00:49:54,559 --> 00:49:57,440
the devil's really on my ass today, or you know,

940
00:49:57,679 --> 00:49:59,639
I feel so blessed for the glory of God that

941
00:49:59,679 --> 00:50:03,880
we got this victory or whatever. Using religious terminology has

942
00:50:03,920 --> 00:50:07,280
been shown to give cover to people with mental illnesses

943
00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:10,800
because some people in those circles will say, the devil's

944
00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:13,679
really on me today, and they're seeing a literal devil,

945
00:50:13,719 --> 00:50:15,880
and they don't get mental health because they frame their

946
00:50:15,920 --> 00:50:19,639
mental illness in this structure of these religious beliefs which

947
00:50:19,800 --> 00:50:23,760
hold this special place in society to be not subjected

948
00:50:24,039 --> 00:50:29,000
to the same level of scrutiny as the other beliefs. Right,

949
00:50:29,039 --> 00:50:31,519
this is the tuna fish versus the spaceship thing. So

950
00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:34,440
there are a lot of costs. Some of them are

951
00:50:34,480 --> 00:50:37,000
external to you, but there are a lot of costs

952
00:50:37,039 --> 00:50:40,320
for somebody to be wrong about such an important question.

953
00:50:40,960 --> 00:50:44,199
For you, specifically, it would be all of this wasted time.

954
00:50:45,039 --> 00:50:48,719
Think of all the hours you've spent in church, praying

955
00:50:49,159 --> 00:50:53,360
and or worrying about this question, and how much it

956
00:50:53,400 --> 00:50:55,599
would be you would have saved had you not had

957
00:50:55,599 --> 00:50:55,920
to go.

958
00:50:55,840 --> 00:50:56,639
Speaker 8: Through so much.

959
00:50:57,119 --> 00:50:58,800
Speaker 6: There's so much that you're saying.

960
00:51:00,719 --> 00:51:02,840
Speaker 1: Well, you asked what the cost would be, or I

961
00:51:02,840 --> 00:51:04,599
always wanted to point out what the cost would be.

962
00:51:04,639 --> 00:51:09,079
So those are some of the examples of how believing

963
00:51:09,159 --> 00:51:13,119
something incorrectly when there's no fraud involved, there's no con man,

964
00:51:13,559 --> 00:51:18,320
but how something could cost you. Right, if you were wrong,

965
00:51:19,039 --> 00:51:22,360
it has cost you. I don't know how many hundreds

966
00:51:22,360 --> 00:51:26,000
of hours of being in church, praying, worrying about the book,

967
00:51:26,119 --> 00:51:27,719
all of those sorts of things. What are your thoughts

968
00:51:27,800 --> 00:51:29,679
on that? Oh, we have looks like we have J

969
00:51:29,840 --> 00:51:32,559
Mike back. Yeah, you had some technical problems.

970
00:51:32,719 --> 00:51:34,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm really frustrated. It's really weird to plug in

971
00:51:34,760 --> 00:51:36,760
the YETTI. I can't hear anything. I just saw my

972
00:51:37,000 --> 00:51:40,320
volume thing like forcefully going down to zero, and I'm like, no,

973
00:51:40,440 --> 00:51:42,599
push volume up, and it's fighting me going down.

974
00:51:42,679 --> 00:51:44,400
Speaker 5: I'm like, am I stepping on something?

975
00:51:44,559 --> 00:51:48,000
Speaker 4: And so basically right now the scenario is I barely

976
00:51:48,039 --> 00:51:50,360
can hear people because I gotta, okay through my TV.

977
00:51:51,719 --> 00:51:53,920
And so when I go through my if I go

978
00:51:54,000 --> 00:51:55,480
through my TV and they're here and I go, just

979
00:51:55,519 --> 00:51:58,039
let me know and I'll do I'll be really good

980
00:51:58,440 --> 00:51:59,159
at clicking that.

981
00:51:59,159 --> 00:52:01,960
Speaker 5: Mute button and only talking when it's my term. But yeah,

982
00:52:02,000 --> 00:52:03,320
no problem probably is over.

983
00:52:03,840 --> 00:52:04,519
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's no problem.

984
00:52:04,559 --> 00:52:06,440
Speaker 1: We were just kicking it over to Levi on his

985
00:52:06,599 --> 00:52:08,719
thoughts on that cost.

986
00:52:08,880 --> 00:52:14,159
Speaker 7: I wasn't trying to, you know, dodge any questions. It's

987
00:52:14,239 --> 00:52:17,320
just you were You were stacking a lot all at once.

988
00:52:17,440 --> 00:52:20,440
It's it's hard to keep up with each claim. But

989
00:52:20,519 --> 00:52:23,199
the first claim that you made was that it would

990
00:52:23,239 --> 00:52:26,920
be a waste of my time for me to pray

991
00:52:27,440 --> 00:52:28,280
or worship.

992
00:52:29,639 --> 00:52:30,519
Speaker 6: And I would say.

993
00:52:30,360 --> 00:52:34,719
Speaker 7: That there, it's not an absolute waste of my time.

994
00:52:34,800 --> 00:52:38,800
There are benefits to it as far as my emotional

995
00:52:38,840 --> 00:52:41,360
state or my connection to my community.

996
00:52:41,840 --> 00:52:42,599
Speaker 2: Can you can you?

997
00:52:43,000 --> 00:52:45,079
Speaker 1: I'm going to interrupt for one second and ask you

998
00:52:45,119 --> 00:52:48,599
to compare that answer to the answer you gave me

999
00:52:48,639 --> 00:52:51,400
when I said what would happen if it was proved

1000
00:52:51,400 --> 00:52:53,519
that your your beliefs about a God were not true?

1001
00:52:53,880 --> 00:52:57,360
The first thing you said was I will stop praying

1002
00:52:57,360 --> 00:52:58,679
and I would stop going to church.

1003
00:53:00,079 --> 00:53:05,079
Speaker 7: Sure, but that's also not implying that I wouldn't replace

1004
00:53:05,199 --> 00:53:11,480
those activities with something that is fulfilling in a similar way.

1005
00:53:12,239 --> 00:53:15,519
Speaker 1: Yeah, but it would be a different activity.

1006
00:53:15,679 --> 00:53:16,119
Speaker 6: Yeah.

1007
00:53:17,519 --> 00:53:19,519
Speaker 1: If I can be honest with you, it feels like

1008
00:53:19,599 --> 00:53:22,320
you're trying to cover for this belief system. You're trying

1009
00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:26,360
to minimize your previous answer. Right, Your previous answer is

1010
00:53:26,400 --> 00:53:28,880
I'd stop going to church. I'd stop doing this, and

1011
00:53:28,920 --> 00:53:31,519
you might. You'd start playing board games, you'd find community elsewhere.

1012
00:53:31,559 --> 00:53:36,679
You start going to a Sunday assembly of Quakers who

1013
00:53:36,719 --> 00:53:38,639
don't really have a religious belief and they just like

1014
00:53:38,679 --> 00:53:40,920
the French like whatever it may be. I don't disagree

1015
00:53:40,960 --> 00:53:43,119
that you'd replace it with something else. But there would

1016
00:53:43,159 --> 00:53:45,119
be a difference. There would be a delta. You'd give

1017
00:53:45,199 --> 00:53:50,119
up something. You'd give up the tithing, you'd give up

1018
00:53:50,119 --> 00:53:52,280
the church going, you'd give up the praying, you'd give

1019
00:53:52,360 --> 00:53:54,760
up the worrying about heaven and hell. You'd give up,

1020
00:53:55,159 --> 00:53:59,159
or you'd start, you'd start appreciating the current life as

1021
00:53:59,199 --> 00:54:02,760
the only life you have to live, knowing or at

1022
00:54:02,840 --> 00:54:05,880
least having been convinced that it's not guaranteed that there's

1023
00:54:05,880 --> 00:54:08,559
an afterlife. There would be a delta, and that delta

1024
00:54:08,719 --> 00:54:10,760
is a maybe small cast to you. But I'm just

1025
00:54:10,840 --> 00:54:14,599
demonstrating that you you, I think you agree there would

1026
00:54:14,639 --> 00:54:15,679
be a difference.

1027
00:54:18,039 --> 00:54:18,760
Speaker 2: Do you agree?

1028
00:54:19,679 --> 00:54:23,079
Speaker 7: Well, I have to say that it feels like I get,

1029
00:54:23,159 --> 00:54:27,960
you know, a few seconds of clarification before you decide

1030
00:54:27,960 --> 00:54:32,159
to interrupt, and I let you whereas you go on

1031
00:54:32,239 --> 00:54:36,840
and on, and anytime I try and interrupt, you accuse

1032
00:54:36,920 --> 00:54:42,920
me of being, you know, dishonest, and the discussion.

1033
00:54:43,280 --> 00:54:45,800
Speaker 1: Or I don't think I've ever accused you of being dishonest.

1034
00:54:45,840 --> 00:54:48,000
And if you rewind, I gave you a very long

1035
00:54:48,079 --> 00:54:51,440
time to talk just a few minutes ago. But yes,

1036
00:54:51,519 --> 00:54:54,079
this is a call in show where we ask questions

1037
00:54:54,360 --> 00:54:57,199
if you are if you want to answer a question

1038
00:54:57,440 --> 00:55:01,119
that is a fairly simple one with a long explanation

1039
00:55:01,239 --> 00:55:03,039
that doesn't make sense, that we would have to then

1040
00:55:03,239 --> 00:55:06,119
rewind back to the beginning where we say, okay, this

1041
00:55:06,199 --> 00:55:08,400
first thing you said didn't make sense, we would waste

1042
00:55:08,440 --> 00:55:12,039
a lot of time. So that's why that's why this

1043
00:55:12,159 --> 00:55:12,719
is like this.

1044
00:55:12,880 --> 00:55:14,480
Speaker 2: So my question was.

1045
00:55:15,480 --> 00:55:17,239
Speaker 7: Stackcorn a lot of.

1046
00:55:18,880 --> 00:55:21,960
Speaker 4: Things, And it sounds like every time you talk about

1047
00:55:21,960 --> 00:55:23,760
like what he says, you don't address the content, but

1048
00:55:23,840 --> 00:55:26,320
like this meta around the content, and it's just really

1049
00:55:26,480 --> 00:55:28,960
really annoying. Like I wasn't even here for out of the conversation,

1050
00:55:29,039 --> 00:55:30,360
but I came back and you were doing the same

1051
00:55:30,360 --> 00:55:32,119
thing or like like you did it with the equivalent

1052
00:55:32,480 --> 00:55:36,480
with the charging me of a false equivalence earlier.

1053
00:55:36,480 --> 00:55:37,760
Speaker 2: Hey, my can get over that.

1054
00:55:38,800 --> 00:55:40,480
Speaker 4: Well no, I mean it's but like he's done that

1055
00:55:40,519 --> 00:55:41,679
every time, and you talked to you like I think

1056
00:55:41,679 --> 00:55:43,840
you're loading this in. It's like okay, like that, I

1057
00:55:43,840 --> 00:55:45,559
don't know that this is working in that sense of

1058
00:55:45,559 --> 00:55:46,239
you're going to do well.

1059
00:55:46,679 --> 00:55:49,559
Speaker 1: Let me let let me use the most recent example.

1060
00:55:49,800 --> 00:55:53,480
All I said was I listed a bunch of potential costs.

1061
00:55:54,119 --> 00:55:56,960
And you're complaining that I listed a bunch of potential costs.

1062
00:55:57,039 --> 00:55:58,599
Is it that you couldn't keep up with all the

1063
00:55:58,639 --> 00:56:01,760
costs or you objecting to me listing costs at all?

1064
00:56:01,920 --> 00:56:04,760
Because we were talking about costs and I said, okay,

1065
00:56:04,840 --> 00:56:07,199
let me rattle off a few of the costs. Praying

1066
00:56:07,239 --> 00:56:10,039
cost time, going to church cost time. There's an emotional

1067
00:56:10,039 --> 00:56:11,800
cost of worrying about the afterlife.

1068
00:56:12,280 --> 00:56:14,320
Speaker 2: There's the cover that you give to.

1069
00:56:14,280 --> 00:56:17,519
Speaker 1: Those around you that the more normal religion seems to everybody,

1070
00:56:17,599 --> 00:56:20,119
the more other people will participate in religion. Those seem

1071
00:56:20,159 --> 00:56:22,320
to be pretty straightforward. Is that what you're complaining about

1072
00:56:22,320 --> 00:56:23,639
that I listed those four or five?

1073
00:56:24,239 --> 00:56:29,320
Speaker 7: Well, you know what, honestly, maybe maybe it's something.

1074
00:56:30,440 --> 00:56:31,480
Speaker 6: Where I'm just.

1075
00:56:34,320 --> 00:56:40,199
Speaker 7: Battling this belief system and when you challenge it, I

1076
00:56:40,239 --> 00:56:43,400
feel like I started getting defensive.

1077
00:56:43,880 --> 00:56:47,119
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean that's that's I applauch. Go ahead, Jay, Mike,

1078
00:56:47,159 --> 00:56:47,440
that's a.

1079
00:56:49,000 --> 00:56:49,679
Speaker 5: That's a very.

1080
00:56:51,920 --> 00:56:55,159
Speaker 7: I'm sorry trying to Yeah, I'm just trying to understand,

1081
00:56:56,000 --> 00:57:00,400
and I guess maybe uh, an online debate format.

1082
00:57:00,079 --> 00:57:03,800
Speaker 6: Isn't the best way for me to work these oughts out.

1083
00:57:04,480 --> 00:57:05,280
Speaker 5: Maybe maybe not.

1084
00:57:05,440 --> 00:57:07,599
Speaker 4: Maybe it's some people might help, but like I will say,

1085
00:57:07,599 --> 00:57:09,719
like you said something at the beginning, we can.

1086
00:57:09,679 --> 00:57:11,599
Speaker 3: Move on, uh to our cars.

1087
00:57:11,599 --> 00:57:12,719
Speaker 4: I know we spent a lot of time and I

1088
00:57:12,760 --> 00:57:14,880
missed a giant chunk, but I was kind of weirded

1089
00:57:14,880 --> 00:57:16,000
out by the way it was phrased.

1090
00:57:16,000 --> 00:57:17,119
Speaker 5: And maybe maybe this.

1091
00:57:17,159 --> 00:57:20,760
Speaker 4: Is just a miscommunication thing or you meant it a

1092
00:57:20,760 --> 00:57:24,480
different way, but you were like, why should I not believe?

1093
00:57:25,239 --> 00:57:27,719
I mean, for me, if like there's a claim about

1094
00:57:27,760 --> 00:57:31,800
like there's a I abducted a leprechaun and threw them

1095
00:57:31,840 --> 00:57:34,800
in Graham's car, Like do you believe, like, like show

1096
00:57:34,880 --> 00:57:37,159
me that I didn't do that and that there isn't

1097
00:57:37,199 --> 00:57:39,360
a leprechaun and shoved in Graham's car. It seems like

1098
00:57:39,360 --> 00:57:41,199
a weird way to do it, because like it seems

1099
00:57:41,199 --> 00:57:43,000
like when you have these types of claims, the better

1100
00:57:43,039 --> 00:57:45,400
thing to do is to say, hey, well, like I

1101
00:57:45,440 --> 00:57:47,599
don't know that I have a good reason to even

1102
00:57:47,639 --> 00:57:51,639
think that's true, because being like you know more on that,

1103
00:57:51,840 --> 00:57:56,119
like highlighting the agnostic kind of side of it, of like, really, look, man,

1104
00:57:56,159 --> 00:57:58,079
I don't know. I could change I could totally have

1105
00:57:58,119 --> 00:58:00,599
my mind be changed on it, and I think that's

1106
00:58:00,639 --> 00:58:02,320
better than like, why shouldn't I believe a lot of

1107
00:58:02,360 --> 00:58:04,480
atheists are like, I don't know. I came to this

1108
00:58:04,599 --> 00:58:08,199
process realizing I didn't have good reasons to believe in

1109
00:58:08,239 --> 00:58:11,159
the first place. Right, So I guess that maybe that's

1110
00:58:11,159 --> 00:58:12,239
why am a little weird. I don't know, what do

1111
00:58:12,239 --> 00:58:15,119
you think about that? Or maybe I miss misrepresented you.

1112
00:58:15,199 --> 00:58:15,800
Speaker 5: I don't know.

1113
00:58:17,639 --> 00:58:22,679
Speaker 7: Well, I guess maybe this conversation isn't going exactly the

1114
00:58:22,679 --> 00:58:26,239
way either one of us was hoping. But I would

1115
00:58:26,239 --> 00:58:29,760
say that I really appreciate the way you guys have

1116
00:58:29,840 --> 00:58:31,800
been talking about this.

1117
00:58:32,840 --> 00:58:34,119
Speaker 6: And if I've been.

1118
00:58:36,159 --> 00:58:43,599
Speaker 7: Defensive or reflective or you know, rudely interruptive, I want

1119
00:58:43,639 --> 00:58:47,880
to apologize for that. But you definitely believe lots.

1120
00:58:47,880 --> 00:58:48,079
Speaker 6: I'll go.

1121
00:58:49,280 --> 00:58:53,280
Speaker 7: You've given me a lot to think about, and I

1122
00:58:53,360 --> 00:58:59,280
guess it's just something I'm struggling with, uh, logically and

1123
00:58:59,320 --> 00:59:00,639
mentally and emotional.

1124
00:59:00,719 --> 00:59:03,519
Speaker 5: Early, i'd like to give you some advice.

1125
00:59:04,239 --> 00:59:05,800
Speaker 2: Believe I'd like to give you some advice.

1126
00:59:07,800 --> 00:59:12,199
Speaker 1: I think here to clarify, I don't think you've been deceptive.

1127
00:59:12,320 --> 00:59:14,440
I think when I've been pointed out things like hey,

1128
00:59:14,480 --> 00:59:16,400
when we ask you questions, you're not answering them. It's

1129
00:59:16,440 --> 00:59:18,079
not because I think you're trying to pull one over

1130
00:59:18,159 --> 00:59:20,400
us or anything like that. I was coming to the

1131
00:59:20,400 --> 00:59:23,880
same conclusion you were. That's that's the That's what we

1132
00:59:23,960 --> 00:59:25,920
call resolution of cognitive dissonance.

1133
00:59:26,000 --> 00:59:26,159
Speaker 2: Right.

1134
00:59:26,199 --> 00:59:31,079
Speaker 1: Cognitive dissonance is when you're trying to reconcile these two

1135
00:59:31,800 --> 00:59:35,920
beliefs or what you want to believe that are contradictory. Right,

1136
00:59:36,039 --> 00:59:38,679
Like I think I want to believe.

1137
00:59:38,360 --> 00:59:39,320
Speaker 2: There's an afterlife. I'm not.

1138
00:59:39,360 --> 00:59:40,400
Speaker 1: I don't want to put words in them out, but

1139
00:59:40,440 --> 00:59:42,079
this is an example. I want to believe that the

1140
00:59:42,079 --> 00:59:45,199
Bible's true, there's an afterlife, et cetera. But I've my

1141
00:59:45,320 --> 00:59:48,840
experience and these arguments I'm hearing and all the people

1142
00:59:48,840 --> 00:59:52,639
I've talked to in my life, it seemed to indicate

1143
00:59:52,679 --> 00:59:55,360
that I shouldn't believe that. And when you start to

1144
00:59:55,400 --> 00:59:57,280
resolve lie like which of these am I going to

1145
00:59:57,320 --> 00:59:59,719
deal with? The brain tends to, in your words, get

1146
00:59:59,760 --> 01:00:03,760
to it tends to say when I'm asked a question

1147
01:00:03,840 --> 01:00:06,119
about X, Y or Z, I say, well, what about

1148
01:00:06,239 --> 01:00:10,519
a this weird outlier, right, So I agree with you.

1149
01:00:10,559 --> 01:00:13,000
I think your self analysis is good, that that the

1150
01:00:13,039 --> 01:00:16,639
brain itself is a very tricky thing. And the other

1151
01:00:16,679 --> 01:00:18,960
piece of advice I have is, I think I've observed

1152
01:00:18,960 --> 01:00:21,280
in my life, and people have written about this, that

1153
01:00:21,599 --> 01:00:25,400
people tend to reserve a certain special place in their

1154
01:00:25,480 --> 01:00:29,800
minds for their very firmly held beliefs like religion, and

1155
01:00:29,840 --> 01:00:34,960
they don't apply the same rules of logic and evidence

1156
01:00:35,119 --> 01:00:37,719
that they would apply to any other aspect of their life.

1157
01:00:38,239 --> 01:00:40,480
And all of our questions from J Mike and I

1158
01:00:40,679 --> 01:00:45,039
so far have been targeted at that reservation that people

1159
01:00:45,079 --> 01:00:49,679
put on their brains to say, I'm gonna my brain

1160
01:00:49,760 --> 01:00:51,920
is going to tell me that asking about the diamond

1161
01:00:51,920 --> 01:00:57,559
in the backyard or the UFO spacecraft or whatever is

1162
01:00:57,719 --> 01:01:01,960
categorically different than religion. When I think I pointed out

1163
01:01:02,000 --> 01:01:05,760
it's not, it's just epistemology. It's just somebody's claiming something

1164
01:01:05,840 --> 01:01:08,519
is true and you're accepting it, but you're not applying

1165
01:01:08,559 --> 01:01:11,679
the same rules you would to the UFO, the diamond,

1166
01:01:12,400 --> 01:01:14,960
the cancer treatments, all these other things that.

1167
01:01:14,920 --> 01:01:17,519
Speaker 2: Are more real world where we have an answer.

1168
01:01:17,920 --> 01:01:21,039
Speaker 1: So I'm not arguing that you shouldn't believe these things

1169
01:01:21,079 --> 01:01:24,960
because they're false. All I'm saying is the proper answer

1170
01:01:25,000 --> 01:01:28,440
to is there an afterlife? Or is the Bible's mystical

1171
01:01:28,480 --> 01:01:32,800
claims true? Is probably I don't know. That's all I'm saying.

1172
01:01:32,920 --> 01:01:35,320
And I think your brain is from what I hear

1173
01:01:35,360 --> 01:01:36,840
from what you said at the intro to this call

1174
01:01:36,880 --> 01:01:39,880
and ongoing is you're struggling with saying I don't know

1175
01:01:40,119 --> 01:01:42,880
because you're uncomfortable with it, and maybe you still believe.

1176
01:01:42,960 --> 01:01:45,239
But maybe your answer really is I don't know, and

1177
01:01:45,280 --> 01:01:47,800
I'm okay with that. We'll find out when we die.

1178
01:01:48,000 --> 01:01:50,280
I don't know. What are your thoughts, Levi, And then

1179
01:01:50,519 --> 01:01:51,480
we'll hear from Mike again.

1180
01:01:53,079 --> 01:01:55,800
Speaker 7: I guess you know a lot of what you just

1181
01:01:55,960 --> 01:02:01,000
said really clarified it for me, and UH made a

1182
01:02:01,039 --> 01:02:01,760
lot of sense.

1183
01:02:02,639 --> 01:02:04,920
Speaker 6: And I guess my original question.

1184
01:02:06,159 --> 01:02:13,000
Speaker 7: Was sort of a misunderstanding of the non believer perspective,

1185
01:02:13,079 --> 01:02:17,800
because my original question is why shouldn't I believe in

1186
01:02:17,840 --> 01:02:21,320
something like And I guess my thought process was why

1187
01:02:21,320 --> 01:02:21,800
should I.

1188
01:02:21,920 --> 01:02:26,320
Speaker 6: Believe that there is no God? And what you're trying

1189
01:02:26,360 --> 01:02:26,960
to say.

1190
01:02:26,840 --> 01:02:34,239
Speaker 7: Is that not not believing that there is a God

1191
01:02:34,440 --> 01:02:38,719
and believing that there is no God, are ye?

1192
01:02:39,440 --> 01:02:42,239
Speaker 4: Yeah, most people on this show, like I'm I think

1193
01:02:42,280 --> 01:02:43,480
I'm the only one.

1194
01:02:43,679 --> 01:02:45,840
Speaker 5: I could be wrong. I think I'm the only one

1195
01:02:45,880 --> 01:02:48,079
on this show that affirms.

1196
01:02:47,599 --> 01:02:50,280
Speaker 4: That God does not. Like my view is, gods and

1197
01:02:50,320 --> 01:02:53,000
goddesses do not exist. They're not a thing. They're not

1198
01:02:53,079 --> 01:02:53,840
They're not a thing.

1199
01:02:53,880 --> 01:02:56,400
Speaker 5: They don't exist. They're not real. They're like a like

1200
01:02:56,440 --> 01:02:59,119
a unicorn to me, right, it's just not a real thing.

1201
01:02:59,239 --> 01:03:01,440
Speaker 4: Now, someone asking why I think that, I'm going to

1202
01:03:01,480 --> 01:03:06,119
get into a lot of boring philosophical justifications on my metaphysics,

1203
01:03:06,119 --> 01:03:09,960
which is akin to something like naturalism, and it'll bore people.

1204
01:03:09,960 --> 01:03:11,920
But I have no problem giving that. But it's at

1205
01:03:11,920 --> 01:03:14,320
the same time, it's not the right way to look

1206
01:03:14,360 --> 01:03:16,440
like if you came to me and go, why, look,

1207
01:03:16,480 --> 01:03:18,119
I believe in this thing, but why should I just not?

1208
01:03:18,199 --> 01:03:19,440
Speaker 5: Why should I believe what you believe?

1209
01:03:19,440 --> 01:03:19,599
Speaker 6: Like that?

1210
01:03:19,679 --> 01:03:21,159
Speaker 4: Yeah, we can do that, and I do that kind

1211
01:03:21,199 --> 01:03:24,199
of trade process with people. But if someone's like genuinely

1212
01:03:24,280 --> 01:03:27,119
deconstruction and it's not just like this philosophical kind of

1213
01:03:27,159 --> 01:03:30,000
back and forth game we're playing, you know, I don't

1214
01:03:30,400 --> 01:03:33,679
I'd much rather them look like in toward themselves it

1215
01:03:33,719 --> 01:03:38,119
seems looking out towards other people, they don't have your experiences.

1216
01:03:38,360 --> 01:03:40,639
They didn't have your knowledge set growing up. They didn't

1217
01:03:40,679 --> 01:03:42,760
read the same books, they didn't watch the same shows,

1218
01:03:42,760 --> 01:03:44,119
they didn't have the same families.

1219
01:03:44,320 --> 01:03:45,360
Speaker 5: Everybody's experienced.

1220
01:03:45,400 --> 01:03:48,719
Speaker 4: That cumulative point of view of your experience is different

1221
01:03:48,719 --> 01:03:52,280
for everybody, and it only takes away from your journey

1222
01:03:52,280 --> 01:03:57,480
to properly potentially deconstruct if you focus on these other

1223
01:03:57,519 --> 01:04:01,000
positions as opposed to looking in or and going what

1224
01:04:01,159 --> 01:04:04,199
reasons do I have to think that this is even true?

1225
01:04:04,320 --> 01:04:07,280
Or like it just raises the probability of it being

1226
01:04:07,280 --> 01:04:09,639
true like a smidge, you know, and work from there

1227
01:04:09,960 --> 01:04:13,199
and really developing, like Graham said, like you're epistemology and knowing.

1228
01:04:13,880 --> 01:04:16,079
Speaker 5: Why do I believe the things I do and do?

1229
01:04:16,119 --> 01:04:17,000
I have good reasons?

1230
01:04:17,039 --> 01:04:19,800
Speaker 4: And even maybe more meta, what what is a good

1231
01:04:19,840 --> 01:04:22,320
criterion of even saying that this is knowledge?

1232
01:04:23,039 --> 01:04:24,760
Speaker 5: All this kind of stuff that we talked about before

1233
01:04:24,800 --> 01:04:25,159
the show.

1234
01:04:25,400 --> 01:04:28,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I have a I have a question for you, LEVI.

1235
01:04:28,599 --> 01:04:30,440
I don't know if you can see my screen, but

1236
01:04:30,519 --> 01:04:35,559
I am holding on screen a jar of marbles. Do

1237
01:04:35,599 --> 01:04:38,800
you agree that the count of marbles inside this jar

1238
01:04:39,000 --> 01:04:45,719
is either odd or even. This is not a trap,

1239
01:04:45,760 --> 01:04:48,840
it's just a demonstration. It's even the number of marbles,

1240
01:04:48,880 --> 01:04:55,000
it's either direct. H Okay, if I if I told

1241
01:04:55,119 --> 01:04:58,159
you if what do you now looking at hearing about

1242
01:04:58,159 --> 01:04:58,719
this marbles?

1243
01:04:58,760 --> 01:05:00,280
Speaker 2: Are you convinced that the.

1244
01:05:00,079 --> 01:05:03,000
Speaker 5: Count is even if you told me that they were.

1245
01:05:03,559 --> 01:05:05,800
Speaker 1: I'm just saying I have these this jar. Are you

1246
01:05:06,159 --> 01:05:08,840
just just knowing that there's a jar of marbles? Are

1247
01:05:08,880 --> 01:05:10,920
you convinced that the number of marbles in the jar

1248
01:05:10,960 --> 01:05:13,840
is even? Okay, so it must be odd?

1249
01:05:13,880 --> 01:05:14,039
Speaker 5: Then?

1250
01:05:14,119 --> 01:05:14,320
Speaker 2: Right?

1251
01:05:15,119 --> 01:05:15,159
Speaker 6: No?

1252
01:05:15,920 --> 01:05:16,119
Speaker 5: Right?

1253
01:05:16,679 --> 01:05:18,719
Speaker 1: How many marks? Is it odd or even? The proper

1254
01:05:18,719 --> 01:05:20,440
answer is I don't know.

1255
01:05:20,639 --> 01:05:21,199
Speaker 5: I don't know.

1256
01:05:21,840 --> 01:05:23,519
Speaker 2: So that's what we're saying.

1257
01:05:23,599 --> 01:05:26,119
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that the marbles are even, the marbles

1258
01:05:26,159 --> 01:05:28,400
are odd. I've actually never counted the marbles.

1259
01:05:28,079 --> 01:05:28,559
Speaker 2: In this jar.

1260
01:05:29,079 --> 01:05:31,000
Speaker 4: Let me add that, like imagine, like I was the

1261
01:05:31,039 --> 01:05:33,480
person that was like, we're doing this example, and I

1262
01:05:33,519 --> 01:05:34,320
tell Gret.

1263
01:05:34,440 --> 01:05:37,960
Speaker 5: Craig, sorry, you're not. Greg. Greg is my other friend.

1264
01:05:38,599 --> 01:05:39,079
That's God.

1265
01:05:39,119 --> 01:05:43,800
Speaker 4: By the way, Graham's like, hey, you know, I al

1266
01:05:43,960 --> 01:05:45,440
he talks to me because what did you believe? I

1267
01:05:45,480 --> 01:05:47,000
go why it was an even or I thought it

1268
01:05:47,039 --> 01:05:51,079
was you know, an even amount for that, and I'm

1269
01:05:51,519 --> 01:05:54,000
I'm like, just I want to know, like, why should

1270
01:05:54,000 --> 01:05:55,119
I think it's odd Graham?

1271
01:05:55,119 --> 01:05:56,679
Speaker 5: And he's like, well, I I don't.

1272
01:05:56,920 --> 01:05:59,199
Speaker 2: I'm not an I'm not an otter, but I'm not

1273
01:05:59,239 --> 01:06:00,000
an even or either.

1274
01:06:00,360 --> 01:06:03,320
Speaker 4: What to think and what I should be doing in

1275
01:06:03,320 --> 01:06:06,039
that situation as an evener is go, why the fuck

1276
01:06:06,079 --> 01:06:07,440
do I even think that it's even?

1277
01:06:07,719 --> 01:06:10,360
Speaker 5: Have I counted them? Nope? Well, then what it's like,

1278
01:06:10,960 --> 01:06:11,960
presumably you don't.

1279
01:06:12,239 --> 01:06:15,239
Speaker 4: You know, it's not a great example because you have reasons, presumably,

1280
01:06:15,280 --> 01:06:17,800
like there are probably legitimate reasons that you've got you

1281
01:06:17,840 --> 01:06:19,960
to believe or whatever. But it's it's finding those in

1282
01:06:20,000 --> 01:06:23,760
analyzing them and being like, should I really just reserve.

1283
01:06:23,519 --> 01:06:24,440
Speaker 5: Judgment at this point?

1284
01:06:24,800 --> 01:06:27,519
Speaker 4: You know, that's kind of at least the way I

1285
01:06:27,559 --> 01:06:29,880
would take it, But I never went through your journey,

1286
01:06:30,440 --> 01:06:32,239
so you know, I'm kind of talking.

1287
01:06:32,519 --> 01:06:34,719
Speaker 7: Well, I just wanted to say I really appreciate you

1288
01:06:34,760 --> 01:06:36,800
guys talking to me and taking this.

1289
01:06:36,880 --> 01:06:39,119
Speaker 5: Time to let me on your show, for sure.

1290
01:06:38,920 --> 01:06:43,079
Speaker 7: And I wanted to say that if I was pushing back.

1291
01:06:42,920 --> 01:06:46,880
Speaker 5: To my well you're good, No, you're so good, You're so.

1292
01:06:46,840 --> 01:06:52,280
Speaker 7: Good, I wanted my intuition yeah, and I really appreciate

1293
01:06:52,440 --> 01:06:55,400
the conversation that we've had and you've given me a

1294
01:06:55,400 --> 01:07:01,559
lot to think about and consider. And uh uh, I

1295
01:07:01,599 --> 01:07:04,199
think I don't think there's anything more we can get

1296
01:07:04,199 --> 01:07:05,159
out of this conversation.

1297
01:07:05,280 --> 01:07:06,280
Speaker 5: I think that's good.

1298
01:07:06,320 --> 01:07:09,159
Speaker 4: I think if apologies, if anyone's like, this is a

1299
01:07:09,159 --> 01:07:11,960
really long call, this was These are the calls we

1300
01:07:12,000 --> 01:07:14,199
live for, Like, this is a call that's way more

1301
01:07:14,239 --> 01:07:16,079
important than why do.

1302
01:07:16,039 --> 01:07:20,639
Speaker 5: You think meta ethical anti realism is true? What about

1303
01:07:20,679 --> 01:07:23,480
metathical Like it's just you know, no, this was a

1304
01:07:24,039 --> 01:07:24,559
but it's not.

1305
01:07:24,800 --> 01:07:28,840
Speaker 4: That's not the importance, and that's playing a video.

1306
01:07:28,599 --> 01:07:30,079
Speaker 5: Game having fun. I suppose like this is.

1307
01:07:30,039 --> 01:07:32,400
Speaker 1: Real world ship, right, Yeah, this is a This has

1308
01:07:32,440 --> 01:07:34,440
been a great call, and I really appreciate putting up

1309
01:07:34,480 --> 01:07:35,880
with us in our format.

1310
01:07:35,960 --> 01:07:37,119
Speaker 2: So thank you very much.

1311
01:07:38,199 --> 01:07:40,800
Speaker 1: Please call back if you want to continue the conversation

1312
01:07:40,920 --> 01:07:44,079
or if you have you know, some answers to the

1313
01:07:44,119 --> 01:07:47,519
opposite question of you know what what we always ask is,

1314
01:07:47,599 --> 01:07:49,400
as you may mention, when we got to the middle,

1315
01:07:49,400 --> 01:07:52,679
where we got to your universalism, I said, okay, well

1316
01:07:52,679 --> 01:07:53,559
what do you believe?

1317
01:07:53,760 --> 01:07:54,519
Speaker 2: And why?

1318
01:07:54,719 --> 01:07:56,800
Speaker 1: The why is much more important, and we've been talking

1319
01:07:56,840 --> 01:07:59,679
about the whys and the methods that we we use

1320
01:07:59,800 --> 01:08:02,280
to come up with what we actually believe in the world.

1321
01:08:02,280 --> 01:08:05,559
And my only point is that those methods could should

1322
01:08:05,599 --> 01:08:08,960
be consistent. You shouldn't reserve a special part of your

1323
01:08:09,119 --> 01:08:12,880
heart or brain or whatever for a belief system that

1324
01:08:12,920 --> 01:08:16,960
you hold sacred just because it's sacred. It should be

1325
01:08:17,039 --> 01:08:19,520
able to if it's true. It should be able to

1326
01:08:19,640 --> 01:08:22,560
stick up and have the same level of analysis as

1327
01:08:22,920 --> 01:08:26,840
opening the jar and counting the marbles. So keep up

1328
01:08:26,840 --> 01:08:29,600
that journey. Please feel free to call back. I really

1329
01:08:29,640 --> 01:08:31,359
appreciate you call. I'll go ahead and drop you out

1330
01:08:31,359 --> 01:08:32,880
and we'll do get onto other callers. We've got a

1331
01:08:32,880 --> 01:08:34,920
lot of them. What a good caller.

1332
01:08:35,000 --> 01:08:35,399
Speaker 2: J Mark.

1333
01:08:35,520 --> 01:08:37,279
Speaker 1: I'm sorry you weren't there the whole time, but I'm

1334
01:08:37,319 --> 01:08:38,159
glad you got back on.

1335
01:08:38,560 --> 01:08:38,800
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1336
01:08:39,119 --> 01:08:41,600
Speaker 4: I mean, I don't know how this audio thing's working

1337
01:08:41,640 --> 01:08:43,800
out for people, So I will, like, I will get

1338
01:08:43,840 --> 01:08:46,039
Kelly in here, you know, for a call and stuff.

1339
01:08:46,159 --> 01:08:49,000
Just I'm sure this is like the producer's fucking nightmare

1340
01:08:49,119 --> 01:08:49,600
right now.

1341
01:08:50,520 --> 01:08:53,960
Speaker 5: And all that. And I mean, I you know, I.

1342
01:08:53,920 --> 01:08:58,399
Speaker 4: Have no no problems given my seat up for Kelly,

1343
01:08:58,439 --> 01:08:59,960
So I'll probably end up doing that at some point,

1344
01:09:00,039 --> 01:09:02,439
just to make this easier for people. If the audience audience,

1345
01:09:02,439 --> 01:09:04,960
I apologize if it's through your echo or something like that.

1346
01:09:05,039 --> 01:09:07,199
Speaker 2: I really sounds pretty good. It's just that we've lost

1347
01:09:07,359 --> 01:09:07,640
the show.

1348
01:09:07,680 --> 01:09:08,960
Speaker 5: Selfishly, I just want to be here.

1349
01:09:09,199 --> 01:09:11,399
Speaker 1: No, you sound you sound pretty good. You just we've

1350
01:09:11,439 --> 01:09:13,760
lost your background. So now it looks like some sort

1351
01:09:13,760 --> 01:09:15,840
of hostage video with just a sheet behind you.

1352
01:09:15,920 --> 01:09:19,960
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, and my like, my like on my green

1353
01:09:20,039 --> 01:09:22,159
screen looks like I shit all over my green screen.

1354
01:09:22,960 --> 01:09:24,800
Speaker 1: All right, let's do some announcements and then we'll jump

1355
01:09:24,840 --> 01:09:29,560
back onto our next caller. So first, we now have

1356
01:09:29,840 --> 01:09:34,800
a channel that hosts all of the shows in the

1357
01:09:35,000 --> 01:09:39,199
ACA UH in audio and podcast form. So you can

1358
01:09:39,319 --> 01:09:44,239
visit tiny dot c, c slash a n Podcasts, and

1359
01:09:44,279 --> 01:09:46,359
there you can listen to all the latest shows from

1360
01:09:46,359 --> 01:09:50,079
the Atheists, Experience, Talk, Heathen, Truth, Wanted, Nonprofits, and others

1361
01:09:50,119 --> 01:09:51,000
all on one channel.

1362
01:09:51,119 --> 01:09:51,920
Speaker 2: That's great news.

1363
01:09:52,640 --> 01:09:52,760
Speaker 5: UH.

1364
01:09:52,840 --> 01:09:55,279
Speaker 1: We do also have another way to support us by

1365
01:09:55,319 --> 01:09:58,199
sending us super chats. If you send us super chats

1366
01:09:58,319 --> 01:10:01,600
now in your chat on YouTube, we will read as

1367
01:10:01,640 --> 01:10:04,720
many as we can on the air, So please do

1368
01:10:04,960 --> 01:10:08,359
participate in that. Also, if you want to go beyond

1369
01:10:08,600 --> 01:10:12,039
just commenting and want to actually take some actions that

1370
01:10:12,119 --> 01:10:18,039
might help you can work with our community. ACA wants

1371
01:10:18,079 --> 01:10:21,079
you to know what's going on and help out. If

1372
01:10:21,119 --> 01:10:25,439
you want so, go over to www Dot Atheist Hyphencommunity

1373
01:10:25,520 --> 01:10:30,199
dot org where you can learn about this organization, it's

1374
01:10:30,479 --> 01:10:33,680
policies and how you can get involved, and we always

1375
01:10:33,720 --> 01:10:37,119
are looking for people to help. Along those lines talking

1376
01:10:37,119 --> 01:10:40,319
about people who help, people who put up with me

1377
01:10:40,680 --> 01:10:43,359
and Jmike. We want to send a very big thank

1378
01:10:43,399 --> 01:10:46,399
you to the crew who put this show together along

1379
01:10:46,439 --> 01:10:49,359
with all the other shows that happen every week. We've

1380
01:10:49,399 --> 01:10:54,880
got video operators, audio operators, note takers, call screeners, chat modifiers.

1381
01:10:54,920 --> 01:10:57,399
There are the handsome devils on your screen now?

1382
01:10:57,960 --> 01:10:59,880
Speaker 2: And do we have any pets? Usually we have a

1383
01:11:00,239 --> 01:11:01,199
or two. I can't tell.

1384
01:11:01,720 --> 01:11:01,840
Speaker 9: Uh.

1385
01:11:02,000 --> 01:11:04,199
Speaker 2: Thank you all very much for doing this.

1386
01:11:04,399 --> 01:11:07,520
Speaker 4: Going to get fixed, fix my problems while this is

1387
01:11:07,520 --> 01:11:08,680
the whole show's going on the other.

1388
01:11:09,000 --> 01:11:11,159
Speaker 1: Yeah, there they deal with me and J Mike and

1389
01:11:11,159 --> 01:11:14,079
all the other hosts who really just have to show

1390
01:11:14,159 --> 01:11:15,199
up and have a conversation.

1391
01:11:15,319 --> 01:11:17,520
Speaker 2: The real work is getting I was in there with.

1392
01:11:17,520 --> 01:11:18,680
Speaker 5: Greg and I was like, I don't know what to do.

1393
01:11:18,720 --> 01:11:21,239
Man Like I'm lost right now. He said, we're gonna

1394
01:11:21,279 --> 01:11:22,800
do this, got this and get this chucked that I'm like,

1395
01:11:22,800 --> 01:11:23,319
all right, cool.

1396
01:11:23,439 --> 01:11:26,319
Speaker 4: So Greg is like just baffled, like I don't know

1397
01:11:26,359 --> 01:11:27,920
what what even happened.

1398
01:11:28,920 --> 01:11:31,680
Speaker 2: He's a wizard, he is, He truly is figured it out.

1399
01:11:31,760 --> 01:11:33,640
Speaker 5: I was like, and let's test this audio thing.

1400
01:11:33,640 --> 01:11:36,840
Speaker 1: It works all right, let's go And and to emphasize

1401
01:11:36,880 --> 01:11:39,960
to everybody, this is a volunteer organization. I think they

1402
01:11:39,960 --> 01:11:42,520
have maybe three people who earn somewhat of a salary

1403
01:11:42,520 --> 01:11:45,840
on this. So getting this show on the air every

1404
01:11:45,880 --> 01:11:49,640
week along with all the others is quite astounding. Having

1405
01:11:49,680 --> 01:11:51,600
been behind the scenes now for a couple of years,

1406
01:11:51,640 --> 01:11:54,720
I've seen a few close calls where they run into

1407
01:11:54,760 --> 01:11:58,319
some sort of problem minutes before we're supposed to go live,

1408
01:11:58,520 --> 01:12:01,000
and it seems like I don't know if you've ever

1409
01:12:01,039 --> 01:12:04,399
seen Shakespeare in Love, the movie where they are always

1410
01:12:04,399 --> 01:12:06,920
trying to put on a show back in Shakespeare's time,

1411
01:12:07,199 --> 01:12:08,720
and it all just kind of works out.

1412
01:12:08,760 --> 01:12:10,079
Speaker 2: And the producer.

1413
01:12:10,119 --> 01:12:12,399
Speaker 1: Whenever he's asked like how does it all come together?

1414
01:12:12,479 --> 01:12:14,840
Every time, he's like, it's a miracle, Like he has

1415
01:12:14,920 --> 01:12:16,800
no idea, it just happens and that's what it feels

1416
01:12:16,840 --> 01:12:19,479
like to me. The show just gets on the air.

1417
01:12:19,760 --> 01:12:24,119
We get to have these conversations and explore with people what.

1418
01:12:24,119 --> 01:12:24,880
Speaker 2: They believe and why.

1419
01:12:24,920 --> 01:12:27,479
Speaker 1: And more importantly, other people can listen to these explanations,

1420
01:12:27,479 --> 01:12:30,119
even if they're not ready to have that chat. They

1421
01:12:30,159 --> 01:12:34,479
hear these conversations and might ask themselves some important questions.

1422
01:12:34,560 --> 01:12:37,560
So thank you crew for making sure this works every week.

1423
01:12:38,079 --> 01:12:39,479
Speaker 2: If you would like to be one.

1424
01:12:39,319 --> 01:12:43,159
Speaker 1: Of those very very attractive cute crew members you just saw,

1425
01:12:43,560 --> 01:12:45,680
or be a guest on one of our shows, or

1426
01:12:45,800 --> 01:12:48,800
eventually even become a host, We're always looking for people

1427
01:12:48,840 --> 01:12:53,000
interested in being a part of our productions, so email

1428
01:12:53,359 --> 01:13:00,319
volunteer at Highist, Atheist Hyphencommunity dot org to get involved.

1429
01:13:01,079 --> 01:13:02,760
I don't know, let's check and see if we have

1430
01:13:02,800 --> 01:13:07,000
any super chats. We do have a super chat. We

1431
01:13:07,079 --> 01:13:11,479
have Skeptoquest for four dollars and ninety nine cents said

1432
01:13:12,039 --> 01:13:14,319
I'm here for the tuna fish sandwiches.

1433
01:13:15,319 --> 01:13:18,479
Speaker 2: Thank you very much, skeptic Quest. It was all a lie.

1434
01:13:18,880 --> 01:13:21,000
Speaker 1: There was no tuna fish sandwich. You were you were

1435
01:13:21,640 --> 01:13:25,119
very gullible to believe that there was one. No, thank

1436
01:13:25,159 --> 01:13:28,279
you very much. So what do you think Jami. Actually

1437
01:13:28,279 --> 01:13:30,119
we jump onto another call. We've got a bunch.

1438
01:13:30,840 --> 01:13:34,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, I need all right, let's uh, let's get get

1439
01:13:34,720 --> 01:13:37,880
one where I don't hopefully get out of them right away.

1440
01:13:38,199 --> 01:13:42,640
Speaker 1: All right, So we've got Michelle I think from New York.

1441
01:13:42,680 --> 01:13:44,960
It's either Michelle or Michael. I think it's Michelle, says

1442
01:13:45,199 --> 01:13:49,600
she her from New York. Was Jesus a historical figure

1443
01:13:50,079 --> 01:13:54,920
because of fame from the Gospels? I'm not sure I

1444
01:13:55,000 --> 01:13:58,800
understand that connection, But Michelle, could you please explain what

1445
01:13:58,840 --> 01:13:59,920
you're talking about?

1446
01:14:00,640 --> 01:14:03,920
Speaker 10: Yeah, hey, mister the Cross examinter, and hey J Mike.

1447
01:14:04,399 --> 01:14:07,079
Lovely to be able to talk to you. Finally. Uh,

1448
01:14:07,600 --> 01:14:10,079
I can't wait to see how J. Mike is totally

1449
01:14:10,079 --> 01:14:12,920
going to destroy me. I mean, yeah, that's the thing.

1450
01:14:12,960 --> 01:14:19,039
He's good at that. But uh, but yeah, what I

1451
01:14:19,159 --> 01:14:22,760
meant by the you know, the heracity of the history,

1452
01:14:22,880 --> 01:14:27,479
the historiocity of Jesus. You know, was he a historical

1453
01:14:27,560 --> 01:14:30,640
figure based on the fame he garnered from the Gospels

1454
01:14:30,680 --> 01:14:33,760
and all the extra canonical works?

1455
01:14:34,319 --> 01:14:34,640
Speaker 6: Uh?

1456
01:14:34,760 --> 01:14:38,640
Speaker 10: And and uh and was he positive that proveny of

1457
01:14:38,680 --> 01:14:42,000
his his historiocity rather than him just being a myth?

1458
01:14:42,520 --> 01:14:42,960
Speaker 6: And did it?

1459
01:14:43,119 --> 01:14:46,079
Speaker 10: Does it possibly? Shed and did his does his game

1460
01:14:46,800 --> 01:14:50,319
possibly shed any light on him being god Blake figure?

1461
01:14:50,920 --> 01:14:54,479
Speaker 1: Is King Arthur or Robin Hood a historical figure because

1462
01:14:54,479 --> 01:14:55,920
of their popularity of their tails?

1463
01:14:56,479 --> 01:14:56,920
Speaker 6: Well?

1464
01:14:57,359 --> 01:15:02,720
Speaker 10: I think it's well no, And like most scholars, there's

1465
01:15:02,720 --> 01:15:05,279
a lot of scholar can I interest? I'll answer that

1466
01:15:05,319 --> 01:15:08,399
by saying a lot of scholars there's to me, it

1467
01:15:08,439 --> 01:15:11,880
seems that it's a mix with the Jesus view. A

1468
01:15:11,920 --> 01:15:14,600
lot of some scholars say he was a mythical figure,

1469
01:15:14,720 --> 01:15:17,560
some say it was historical. I don't know of any

1470
01:15:17,640 --> 01:15:22,039
scholars that actually think that the King Arthur was historical.

1471
01:15:22,479 --> 01:15:25,279
I think everyone seems to kind of take it on

1472
01:15:25,439 --> 01:15:29,279
fact that he was. It was all a fictional story.

1473
01:15:29,800 --> 01:15:33,680
Speaker 1: So they're they're not a historical figure because of the

1474
01:15:33,680 --> 01:15:35,119
popularity of their stories.

1475
01:15:35,159 --> 01:15:36,239
Speaker 2: Then is that what you're saying?

1476
01:15:36,960 --> 01:15:40,119
Speaker 4: That's the point your Graham's trying to get.

1477
01:15:39,960 --> 01:15:40,960
Speaker 5: You to writing nine.

1478
01:15:43,000 --> 01:15:43,760
Speaker 10: Right, right?

1479
01:15:43,840 --> 01:15:46,399
Speaker 1: The popularity of those stories does not establish that they

1480
01:15:46,399 --> 01:15:48,159
are historical figures, is what you're saying.

1481
01:15:48,359 --> 01:15:49,800
Speaker 5: I can I know?

1482
01:15:50,279 --> 01:15:52,920
Speaker 10: Can I There may have been a there may have

1483
01:15:53,000 --> 01:15:58,880
been a figure in history that was a king named

1484
01:15:59,079 --> 01:16:04,079
Arthur or or Dragon, but his story, I mean, what's

1485
01:16:04,119 --> 01:16:05,359
there a magical sword.

1486
01:16:05,800 --> 01:16:07,560
Speaker 8: Was there a magical lady at the lake?

1487
01:16:07,760 --> 01:16:09,279
Speaker 10: They gave him a sword?

1488
01:16:09,359 --> 01:16:10,079
Speaker 3: In Avalon?

1489
01:16:10,720 --> 01:16:11,640
Speaker 10: I really much.

1490
01:16:11,479 --> 01:16:15,720
Speaker 1: Doubt that, So I'm gonna I'm gonna redirect back to

1491
01:16:15,760 --> 01:16:20,039
the original question. If you agree that King Arthur's tales

1492
01:16:20,520 --> 01:16:24,319
and Robin Hood's tales are popular, but that popularity doesn't

1493
01:16:24,359 --> 01:16:28,239
mean that they are true, doesn't that same logic apply

1494
01:16:28,479 --> 01:16:30,840
to the historical figure of Jesus.

1495
01:16:30,479 --> 01:16:31,039
Speaker 2: In the Bible?

1496
01:16:31,800 --> 01:16:36,039
Speaker 1: I E Yes, those aren't necessarily true because the story

1497
01:16:36,119 --> 01:16:38,920
is popular. And I'm hearing you say yes, Okay, I

1498
01:16:38,920 --> 01:16:41,479
don't have any other questions. How about you, Mike h No?

1499
01:16:41,520 --> 01:16:44,520
Speaker 4: I mean, but if we have a are we just

1500
01:16:44,600 --> 01:16:47,680
getting like a concession that the that's not the case.

1501
01:16:47,840 --> 01:16:49,560
Speaker 5: It might have just been phrases like a question or.

1502
01:16:49,560 --> 01:16:51,800
Speaker 2: Something like that, but like, so, what are your thoughts?

1503
01:16:51,960 --> 01:16:53,680
Speaker 4: What is what is your position? Like I got to

1504
01:16:53,800 --> 01:16:55,119
I need to go up more. If we just all

1505
01:16:55,199 --> 01:16:57,239
kind of agree that the popularity of a story doesn't

1506
01:16:57,399 --> 01:16:59,199
you know, make it, you know, true? Like it's not

1507
01:16:59,239 --> 01:17:01,079
like they're gonna dig up New York at some point

1508
01:17:01,119 --> 01:17:02,479
and be like Spider Man, this shit.

1509
01:17:02,359 --> 01:17:05,840
Speaker 5: Was real to you? Why a real dude?

1510
01:17:05,920 --> 01:17:09,560
Speaker 1: But you know, but if they did, that would be

1511
01:17:09,600 --> 01:17:10,479
interesting evidence.

1512
01:17:11,399 --> 01:17:12,199
Speaker 5: That would be cool.

1513
01:17:12,279 --> 01:17:12,760
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1514
01:17:12,880 --> 01:17:14,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, so like I.

1515
01:17:14,000 --> 01:17:16,359
Speaker 4: Don't know, yeah, but maybe we get some more meat

1516
01:17:16,399 --> 01:17:19,880
on the boat. Like do you think that Jesus existed?

1517
01:17:19,960 --> 01:17:20,720
Speaker 5: Is at your position?

1518
01:17:20,880 --> 01:17:25,319
Speaker 8: And I think it's possible.

1519
01:17:26,279 --> 01:17:28,520
Speaker 10: And one of the reasons I think is more than

1520
01:17:28,640 --> 01:17:34,800
possible is because I think especially in the extra Canigal stuff,

1521
01:17:34,960 --> 01:17:38,960
like the extra Caniical gospels. I think it was the

1522
01:17:38,960 --> 01:17:42,800
Gospel of Thomas, the Gospel of White where and it's

1523
01:17:42,840 --> 01:17:46,600
my opinion that there was more than one itinerate preacher

1524
01:17:47,239 --> 01:17:50,680
going around saying his name was Joshua, more than one

1525
01:17:50,800 --> 01:17:54,960
rabbi as most some scholars believe, going around saying they

1526
01:17:55,039 --> 01:18:00,640
were Jesus or Joshua or yeah, are you sure? But

1527
01:18:01,239 --> 01:18:03,640
I think one of the scriptures.

1528
01:18:03,079 --> 01:18:06,640
Speaker 8: That Moses dound in me was when Jesus said.

1529
01:18:06,439 --> 01:18:09,079
Speaker 10: In the Gospel of why did the Gospel Thomas, I

1530
01:18:09,119 --> 01:18:12,159
surely tell you the end shall not come until a

1531
01:18:12,199 --> 01:18:14,920
man can become a woman and a woman can become

1532
01:18:14,960 --> 01:18:15,319
a man.

1533
01:18:15,800 --> 01:18:18,960
Speaker 1: Now, obviously, what relevance does that have to whether or

1534
01:18:19,039 --> 01:18:23,439
not Jesus was a historical figure, And more importantly, did

1535
01:18:23,520 --> 01:18:26,199
any of the supernatural things that are claimed in the Bible.

1536
01:18:26,399 --> 01:18:28,800
Speaker 5: Yeah, and like this, I don't know this if.

1537
01:18:30,079 --> 01:18:33,720
Speaker 4: This feels like trully because like I mean, what you

1538
01:18:33,880 --> 01:18:34,760
just like pulled out.

1539
01:18:34,600 --> 01:18:36,239
Speaker 5: Because like from what I actually about the Gospel.

1540
01:18:35,960 --> 01:18:38,199
Speaker 4: Toomas, this is it's just like sayings from Jesus am

1541
01:18:38,279 --> 01:18:41,119
I right, right, Like you have, like anyone that thinks

1542
01:18:41,159 --> 01:18:43,319
that the fish will or the Kingdom of God will

1543
01:18:43,359 --> 01:18:45,000
be in the seas, the fish shall go before them. Man,

1544
01:18:45,000 --> 01:18:47,000
anyone that thinks that the Kingdom will be in the

1545
01:18:47,880 --> 01:18:50,199
in the skies, the bird shall go before I'm trying,

1546
01:18:50,199 --> 01:18:52,640
to like point, trying to argue with early Christians that

1547
01:18:52,680 --> 01:18:56,439
thought there was a literal apocalyptic.

1548
01:18:55,479 --> 01:18:58,119
Speaker 5: Judgment the Kingdom of God on earth, and they're arguing

1549
01:18:58,159 --> 01:18:58,479
with that.

1550
01:18:58,560 --> 01:19:01,760
Speaker 4: But like from my understanding of the Gospel of Thomas,

1551
01:19:01,840 --> 01:19:04,279
so that it's like these are sayings that Christians don't accept.

1552
01:19:04,279 --> 01:19:06,199
You're just saying like it could be because there's this

1553
01:19:06,359 --> 01:19:07,359
funny here or something.

1554
01:19:07,399 --> 01:19:09,000
Speaker 5: That's what it sounds like. You're saying, like there's this

1555
01:19:09,119 --> 01:19:10,560
funny like man.

1556
01:19:10,520 --> 01:19:13,520
Speaker 4: Becoming a woman, woman becoming man's like a trans joke.

1557
01:19:14,159 --> 01:19:17,000
Speaker 10: That what I mean by that is obviously you know

1558
01:19:17,199 --> 01:19:20,359
that Jesus that said that it is not saying was

1559
01:19:20,399 --> 01:19:25,520
not making some like future astoundment or future assessment about

1560
01:19:25,600 --> 01:19:27,199
sex changed operations.

1561
01:19:28,680 --> 01:19:30,720
Speaker 2: All right now, I'm just I'm just dropping this call.

1562
01:19:30,840 --> 01:19:34,880
Speaker 1: Yeah I don't, Yeah, I I I'm not interested.

1563
01:19:35,680 --> 01:19:38,399
Speaker 5: At tempt even at trolling. I was even good. I

1564
01:19:38,479 --> 01:19:42,800
was even good. Yeah that's oh it sounds man woman.

1565
01:19:42,920 --> 01:19:44,920
Speaker 4: And I think that's true because look at today, and

1566
01:19:44,960 --> 01:19:48,960
that's people think brother, brother, nobody, nobody's interested with the

1567
01:19:49,439 --> 01:19:53,279
word trans means, first off, because I bet you, like

1568
01:19:53,479 --> 01:19:54,840
when people say this ship, they're.

1569
01:19:54,640 --> 01:19:57,359
Speaker 5: Like, oh, man becoming a woman, when becoming man, Like they.

1570
01:19:57,199 --> 01:20:01,199
Speaker 4: Don't even understand what the word trans means, and so

1571
01:20:01,239 --> 01:20:03,880
they have this like fundamental confusion of like what a

1572
01:20:03,960 --> 01:20:05,720
trans person is actually fucking saying.

1573
01:20:06,199 --> 01:20:09,640
Speaker 5: So infuriating, Like I got on the like uh.

1574
01:20:09,920 --> 01:20:12,520
Speaker 4: Trans debates on TikTok, I had like I had to

1575
01:20:12,560 --> 01:20:14,079
like bow out for a little bit because these people

1576
01:20:14,119 --> 01:20:18,039
are so dumb, Like they're so stupid, they don't understand

1577
01:20:18,039 --> 01:20:19,720
the position they're arguing against.

1578
01:20:19,760 --> 01:20:20,479
Speaker 5: Like it's insane.

1579
01:20:20,880 --> 01:20:24,399
Speaker 4: So if that was you, please, like, I mean, understand

1580
01:20:24,399 --> 01:20:26,319
what the word means before you're like man become.

1581
01:20:26,079 --> 01:20:27,239
Speaker 5: Woman, woman become man.

1582
01:20:30,000 --> 01:20:34,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's it's a stark contrast with the previous call.

1583
01:20:34,279 --> 01:20:37,079
I'll just point out that I will take a million

1584
01:20:37,199 --> 01:20:40,920
Levis who will argue to death against me if they're

1585
01:20:40,960 --> 01:20:45,680
convinced but is coming from a point of honesty and

1586
01:20:45,840 --> 01:20:52,680
intellectual curiosity and uh and being direct and all of

1587
01:20:52,760 --> 01:20:55,800
those things. I'll take a million of those over somebody

1588
01:20:55,920 --> 01:21:00,159
who for some reason has a sad enough life that

1589
01:21:00,159 --> 01:21:02,319
they have some sort of acts to grind that they

1590
01:21:02,319 --> 01:21:07,199
call in a show about theism that talks about what

1591
01:21:07,199 --> 01:21:10,199
we believe in, why we believe it, with this sort

1592
01:21:10,199 --> 01:21:15,000
of performative bullshit, And you know, I'm bored of it.

1593
01:21:15,000 --> 01:21:19,399
It's so boring. It's I've seen for the last ten

1594
01:21:19,479 --> 01:21:24,760
years now, fifteen years now of what ignorance really looks like,

1595
01:21:24,760 --> 01:21:27,920
like ignorance put into political motion, and it's boring.

1596
01:21:28,079 --> 01:21:30,119
Speaker 2: It's terrifying and boring. At the same time.

1597
01:21:30,199 --> 01:21:33,079
Speaker 4: You should have saw earlier what I called the experience,

1598
01:21:34,560 --> 01:21:36,000
the trans show, and it didn't land.

1599
01:21:36,039 --> 01:21:39,520
Speaker 5: It wasn't funny. I really don't even what you do

1600
01:21:39,640 --> 01:21:40,039
after that?

1601
01:21:40,399 --> 01:21:40,560
Speaker 7: Is that?

1602
01:21:40,600 --> 01:21:42,039
Speaker 5: What you do you call people when you do that?

1603
01:21:42,199 --> 01:21:44,680
Speaker 2: Like, I don't know. It's it's sad, it really is.

1604
01:21:44,760 --> 01:21:49,239
Speaker 1: I do feel sorry for the caller because their life

1605
01:21:49,239 --> 01:21:52,119
could be so much richer. I don't think people understand

1606
01:21:52,159 --> 01:21:56,479
how rich life is when you start to honestly examine

1607
01:21:56,960 --> 01:22:02,159
epistemology and facts and sciences. The world and the universe

1608
01:22:02,199 --> 01:22:06,760
are stunningly, amazingly complex, and there's so much out there

1609
01:22:06,800 --> 01:22:10,880
to learn, from the social sciences to my area of law,

1610
01:22:11,119 --> 01:22:15,760
to your area of philosophy, to hard sciences like astronomy

1611
01:22:16,000 --> 01:22:19,600
or geology. There's so much out there, and a lot

1612
01:22:19,600 --> 01:22:23,359
of these people who have had the first clue about

1613
01:22:23,399 --> 01:22:26,840
this stuff, it's dunning Krueger to some degree that they

1614
01:22:26,880 --> 01:22:29,359
think they know better than everybody else when there's just

1615
01:22:29,479 --> 01:22:31,640
so much hard science out there that we've put on

1616
01:22:31,680 --> 01:22:34,840
the table to establish how to treat each other better

1617
01:22:35,039 --> 01:22:38,239
in all aspects of life, not just for trans people.

1618
01:22:39,000 --> 01:22:42,399
That you really sound like a very sad person when

1619
01:22:42,439 --> 01:22:44,239
you call in and do this, and all I can

1620
01:22:44,279 --> 01:22:49,640
do is pity you. So we have better calls to take?

1621
01:22:49,680 --> 01:22:52,600
Speaker 2: Shall we move on to the next one? All right?

1622
01:22:52,840 --> 01:22:53,079
Speaker 6: Yeah?

1623
01:22:53,159 --> 01:22:56,479
Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm I want. I don't. I'm in this weird

1624
01:22:56,479 --> 01:22:57,359
position because I was like.

1625
01:22:57,479 --> 01:22:59,239
Speaker 4: I want to do a call like that wasn't a

1626
01:22:59,279 --> 01:23:02,720
fucking real call? And then I'm like, well, you know,

1627
01:23:03,079 --> 01:23:05,000
give Kelly an opportunity to But now I feel like

1628
01:23:05,079 --> 01:23:06,720
it's like, well, I don't want to leave yet.

1629
01:23:07,000 --> 01:23:09,800
Speaker 2: We're no, no, you're you're our co host. We'll have

1630
01:23:09,920 --> 01:23:10,720
Kelly up in a bit.

1631
01:23:10,920 --> 01:23:12,119
Speaker 5: I don't want to be a dick, but I kind

1632
01:23:12,119 --> 01:23:13,760
of want to. Let's take this, I don't want to.

1633
01:23:13,760 --> 01:23:16,000
Speaker 2: All right, Well, why don't we talk to Marcus?

1634
01:23:16,119 --> 01:23:16,359
Speaker 5: Him?

1635
01:23:16,600 --> 01:23:19,479
Speaker 1: He him from New Zealand. Thanks for calling in from

1636
01:23:19,840 --> 01:23:23,359
so far away. The question I see, or the note

1637
01:23:23,359 --> 01:23:25,720
I see, is that you said I came up with

1638
01:23:25,800 --> 01:23:30,039
a trilemma. Not a dilemma, but a trilemma that shows

1639
01:23:30,119 --> 01:23:34,880
either God interferes in free will or it's unfair thoughts,

1640
01:23:34,920 --> 01:23:38,159
So why don't you explain it to us? Marcus? What's

1641
01:23:38,159 --> 01:23:42,439
your what's your observation? And we'll give you our thoughts.

1642
01:23:42,920 --> 01:23:44,760
Speaker 5: Hi, I'm Mark.

1643
01:23:45,119 --> 01:23:49,479
Speaker 9: I'm Marcus from New Zealand, as you already know, yep,

1644
01:23:50,960 --> 01:23:57,039
already Colleen showed before. And I I think you will remember.

1645
01:23:56,680 --> 01:23:57,600
Speaker 6: Me or not.

1646
01:23:59,359 --> 01:24:02,399
Speaker 4: I'm really bad remembering calls, even if it happened a

1647
01:24:02,399 --> 01:24:02,960
week ago.

1648
01:24:03,680 --> 01:24:06,199
Speaker 1: I may have spoken to Marcus. I seem to recall

1649
01:24:06,399 --> 01:24:08,880
New Zealand and the name, but I'm not sure.

1650
01:24:08,920 --> 01:24:09,600
Speaker 2: Go ahead, I'm sure.

1651
01:24:09,600 --> 01:24:13,079
Speaker 5: There's so many audiences. I remember this guy. Yeah, I

1652
01:24:13,159 --> 01:24:15,960
don't know. I talked a lot of people online.

1653
01:24:16,279 --> 01:24:20,119
Speaker 9: A lot of stuff thats happened since since then, uh,

1654
01:24:20,399 --> 01:24:26,199
And I've been struggling with my religious upbringing. I've really

1655
01:24:26,239 --> 01:24:29,800
been thinking about God and about the judgment.

1656
01:24:29,399 --> 01:24:31,920
Speaker 8: Day and about that, and in.

1657
01:24:31,960 --> 01:24:34,880
Speaker 9: That I think I came up with this trilemma of

1658
01:24:35,000 --> 01:24:39,720
mine that I don't think anybody has done, specifically.

1659
01:24:39,039 --> 01:24:40,880
Speaker 8: Said in a way, in this way before.

1660
01:24:41,520 --> 01:24:45,439
Speaker 2: And I discuss it, okay, laid on ut.

1661
01:24:47,039 --> 01:24:47,560
Speaker 5: Okay.

1662
01:24:47,680 --> 01:24:51,800
Speaker 9: So the trilemma asks what happens to children on the

1663
01:24:51,880 --> 01:24:55,399
day of judgment, on the day of final judgment. Now,

1664
01:24:55,960 --> 01:25:00,800
the standard response from Christians is that since children are not, uh,

1665
01:25:01,159 --> 01:25:06,359
don't have the age of accountability yet, they they they

1666
01:25:06,479 --> 01:25:07,439
all get to heaven.

1667
01:25:08,000 --> 01:25:09,680
Speaker 5: But what kids?

1668
01:25:10,880 --> 01:25:14,239
Speaker 9: Yeah, but what if a kid doesn't want to get

1669
01:25:14,279 --> 01:25:16,520
to heaven? What if they want to stay with their

1670
01:25:16,560 --> 01:25:17,960
simple parents even in hell?

1671
01:25:18,840 --> 01:25:19,600
Speaker 8: And then.

1672
01:25:21,159 --> 01:25:24,720
Speaker 9: And then, as you have, God either takes them to

1673
01:25:24,760 --> 01:25:31,479
heaven anyways with kidnapping God, or he said them to help,

1674
01:25:31,560 --> 01:25:34,960
to bid their parents to be well. Sending children to

1675
01:25:35,079 --> 01:25:39,680
help would be really bad, or he brainwashes them and

1676
01:25:39,840 --> 01:25:42,119
in a way that they want to be with God

1677
01:25:42,359 --> 01:25:45,840
more that they want to be with Uh, more that

1678
01:25:45,920 --> 01:25:49,319
they want to be with their parents, against the original

1679
01:25:49,359 --> 01:25:54,279
wish wishes. Now, I seen some responses to this because.

1680
01:25:54,039 --> 01:25:55,439
Speaker 5: I lay on readit.

1681
01:25:56,000 --> 01:26:00,800
Speaker 9: I asked some questions about it online, and they said

1682
01:26:00,840 --> 01:26:05,399
that since God's perfectly lovable, the kid, by seeing God

1683
01:26:05,520 --> 01:26:08,239
will want who want to build God Martin, They want

1684
01:26:08,239 --> 01:26:10,760
to be new parents. And this is not pretty much

1685
01:26:10,920 --> 01:26:13,319
because that's just a natural way of things.

1686
01:26:13,920 --> 01:26:17,000
Speaker 8: But what is the kid even refuse? But what if

1687
01:26:17,079 --> 01:26:19,680
the kid even refuses to look at God because he

1688
01:26:19,800 --> 01:26:21,800
knows that still will happen.

1689
01:26:22,520 --> 01:26:23,439
Speaker 9: Yeah, you think.

1690
01:26:25,439 --> 01:26:28,000
Speaker 2: I'll defer to j Mike, he's sort of better at this.

1691
01:26:28,079 --> 01:26:31,880
Speaker 1: But my observation is you see a similar argument of Hey,

1692
01:26:32,640 --> 01:26:35,279
for God to expose himself to anybody and prove that

1693
01:26:35,359 --> 01:26:38,279
he exists would destroy free will because then they would

1694
01:26:38,880 --> 01:26:41,920
have no choice but to worship him. So I think

1695
01:26:42,000 --> 01:26:45,399
that point maybe makes sense. And then the other the

1696
01:26:45,439 --> 01:26:48,079
counter argument to that is there's stories in the Bible.

1697
01:26:48,199 --> 01:26:51,000
And I don't really get into arguing fan fiction, which

1698
01:26:51,000 --> 01:26:54,680
is kind of what we're doing, but there's other stories

1699
01:26:54,680 --> 01:26:57,359
in the Bible that sort of disprove that. So if

1700
01:26:57,560 --> 01:27:00,640
I understand the Bible correctly, Satan used to be in

1701
01:27:00,680 --> 01:27:03,560
the presence of God, walk with God, see God, and

1702
01:27:03,600 --> 01:27:06,279
Satan was able to exercise the free will to say Nah,

1703
01:27:06,319 --> 01:27:09,359
I don't want that. So I think this whole fanfic

1704
01:27:09,560 --> 01:27:12,800
free Will Heaven whatever. I agree with you, there's tons

1705
01:27:12,800 --> 01:27:15,159
of plot holes in it. What are your thoughts, Jamike?

1706
01:27:15,359 --> 01:27:17,119
Speaker 5: I was actually gonna point out that, like.

1707
01:27:19,199 --> 01:27:23,199
Speaker 4: There's like a lot of different kind of thought experiments

1708
01:27:23,279 --> 01:27:28,399
or different things you can point, like, like, for example,

1709
01:27:28,439 --> 01:27:31,039
like I'll talk about how it's pretty clear that.

1710
01:27:35,000 --> 01:27:36,760
Speaker 3: Well, I guess it depends if you're a don't.

1711
01:27:36,760 --> 01:27:38,039
Speaker 4: I don't know if I want to get into open

1712
01:27:38,079 --> 01:27:40,279
theism and all this kind of stuff, Like there's certain

1713
01:27:40,359 --> 01:27:43,880
views that might push back for certain reasons, but I

1714
01:27:44,079 --> 01:27:46,479
guess I'll just echo the same kind of point at Graham.

1715
01:27:47,439 --> 01:27:49,399
Speaker 5: There's a lot of different ways you can construct these, and.

1716
01:27:49,399 --> 01:27:51,479
Speaker 4: I'd have to really analyze your argument to see if

1717
01:27:51,479 --> 01:27:53,560
it's like a true trilemma or whatever.

1718
01:27:53,600 --> 01:27:55,000
Speaker 5: It's kind of hard for me just to do it

1719
01:27:55,039 --> 01:27:58,319
on the fly. I got to like really make sure

1720
01:27:58,359 --> 01:28:00,600
I'm hearing everything you're saying right down and all that.

1721
01:28:00,920 --> 01:28:03,880
Speaker 4: But I think you can develop these things all the time,

1722
01:28:03,880 --> 01:28:06,920
Like I you know, I think it's easier for me

1723
01:28:07,159 --> 01:28:09,479
when I'm in these conversations is rather than getting into

1724
01:28:09,520 --> 01:28:11,359
the kind of fan fiction about it, like I kind

1725
01:28:11,359 --> 01:28:14,199
of agree with Graham, I focus on like, look, I

1726
01:28:14,239 --> 01:28:15,760
don't even think free will.

1727
01:28:15,680 --> 01:28:17,760
Speaker 5: Is like at all.

1728
01:28:17,800 --> 01:28:21,239
Speaker 4: Yep, right, So like this like this trial Ama or

1729
01:28:21,279 --> 01:28:23,800
these arguments might be good, but they assume something that

1730
01:28:23,840 --> 01:28:26,159
you're kind of granting them, and I'm I'm like, look,

1731
01:28:26,199 --> 01:28:30,920
I just don't see how a choice that's made by

1732
01:28:30,960 --> 01:28:37,960
an agent isn't either explained and thus you have determining antecedents,

1733
01:28:38,560 --> 01:28:41,359
or that there's no explanation and it's indeterministic.

1734
01:28:41,720 --> 01:28:43,600
Speaker 5: I've had friends that don't agree with me on this.

1735
01:28:44,159 --> 01:28:47,039
I haven't heard like good pushback. I really haven't. I

1736
01:28:47,079 --> 01:28:49,439
end up getting kind of frustrated at pushbacking and we're

1737
01:28:49,439 --> 01:28:50,079
not getting anywhere.

1738
01:28:50,159 --> 01:28:51,840
Speaker 4: So I'm just done with the conversation. You have, but

1739
01:28:51,920 --> 01:28:53,960
a real good pushback. But it does not seem like

1740
01:28:53,960 --> 01:28:56,199
it's an option. It's either there's these antecedent factors that

1741
01:28:56,600 --> 01:29:01,159
fully determine or partially determine, or it's the case that

1742
01:29:01,239 --> 01:29:04,399
you that nothing explains that it's indeterministic, and so it's

1743
01:29:04,439 --> 01:29:06,880
either an explanation or no explanation for why an agent

1744
01:29:06,960 --> 01:29:07,680
chose A over be.

1745
01:29:08,239 --> 01:29:10,079
Speaker 5: And I just find those to be a little bit

1746
01:29:10,079 --> 01:29:11,119
more compelling.

1747
01:29:10,720 --> 01:29:13,800
Speaker 4: In the sense that someone's now thinking, like if they

1748
01:29:13,840 --> 01:29:16,199
if you get them on that, they're like, oh shit,

1749
01:29:16,319 --> 01:29:18,239
now I got to be like a Calvinist or something

1750
01:29:18,840 --> 01:29:20,800
like they're going to start. You'll start to see them

1751
01:29:21,319 --> 01:29:23,119
not just like a band in the view, but like

1752
01:29:23,399 --> 01:29:27,119
take these Calvinists of approaches or like deterministic approaches to

1753
01:29:27,199 --> 01:29:28,279
Christianity and like the.

1754
01:29:28,279 --> 01:29:31,199
Speaker 5: Elect or whatever. So yeah, I think maybe I'm weird,

1755
01:29:31,239 --> 01:29:33,000
and I like fan fiction as well.

1756
01:29:33,039 --> 01:29:33,239
Speaker 11: You know.

1757
01:29:33,319 --> 01:29:37,800
Speaker 1: Another variation of that is uh is, hey, you know

1758
01:29:38,760 --> 01:29:42,479
you just say, well, does God know the future when

1759
01:29:42,520 --> 01:29:45,760
he created the universe? And yes, so there's no free

1760
01:29:45,800 --> 01:29:49,000
will because no matter what happens, I'm going to choose

1761
01:29:49,199 --> 01:29:51,039
X instead of why. When we come to that point

1762
01:29:51,079 --> 01:29:55,000
of their decision and then and then the Christians will

1763
01:29:55,000 --> 01:29:58,119
typically say, well, no, you're making the choice. It's just

1764
01:29:58,159 --> 01:30:01,000
like rewinding a film, right, and you just watch that

1765
01:30:01,159 --> 01:30:04,039
choice being made over and over again, and you could

1766
01:30:04,079 --> 01:30:05,720
go down that rabbit Holeham.

1767
01:30:05,760 --> 01:30:08,479
Speaker 4: If you go down that route, it's the proverbial I

1768
01:30:08,520 --> 01:30:12,760
have God as a file cabinet of everybody's free actions

1769
01:30:13,159 --> 01:30:17,039
for any possible world, any permutation, Like Graham does this

1770
01:30:17,079 --> 01:30:19,079
on that there that like he looks at all the

1771
01:30:19,119 --> 01:30:22,239
ways the world could be and that they could freely act.

1772
01:30:22,279 --> 01:30:24,239
And so I think kind of to the point you're

1773
01:30:24,239 --> 01:30:28,880
making is like if somebody, if somebody says like, well, look,

1774
01:30:28,920 --> 01:30:34,039
God's free, God's not fore knowledge doesn't actually affect our freedom.

1775
01:30:34,079 --> 01:30:36,279
It's like Graham says, like rewinding it and looking at this,

1776
01:30:36,760 --> 01:30:38,439
But then then you can just get them on what

1777
01:30:38,479 --> 01:30:40,680
I think are easier arguments like problem of you arguments

1778
01:30:40,720 --> 01:30:43,000
we go, well, then God knew the world where we

1779
01:30:43,039 --> 01:30:45,800
would all freely make the right decision and decided to

1780
01:30:45,840 --> 01:30:46,640
not go with that.

1781
01:30:49,399 --> 01:30:53,680
Speaker 1: Explicitly said that because I learned that argument from you,

1782
01:30:53,760 --> 01:30:55,399
and I wanted to set it up so you could.

1783
01:30:56,239 --> 01:30:58,479
Speaker 5: So I'm sorry to get off the point of your thing.

1784
01:30:58,479 --> 01:31:00,600
Speaker 4: It's just I think me and Graham, it's like we

1785
01:31:00,680 --> 01:31:03,039
might be able to like go through this argument and go, yeah,

1786
01:31:03,079 --> 01:31:05,279
that's like that's a true trilemma or something. But I

1787
01:31:05,279 --> 01:31:07,239
think we're both in the same page that this isn't

1788
01:31:07,279 --> 01:31:10,439
like our style of doing it as much as.

1789
01:31:10,680 --> 01:31:14,159
Speaker 1: Yeah, plus plus I think your Marcus. I think that

1790
01:31:14,239 --> 01:31:16,079
point where you say, hey, if the child is just

1791
01:31:16,199 --> 01:31:20,319
taken to heaven, that's kidnapping. If he chooses to go

1792
01:31:20,359 --> 01:31:23,960
to heaven because it's irresistible, that destroys free will, that

1793
01:31:24,039 --> 01:31:27,000
part is the black hole of the argument. Right, You're

1794
01:31:27,039 --> 01:31:29,680
going to get sucked into a definition of free will,

1795
01:31:30,119 --> 01:31:32,319
and that's where the argument would really lie with that

1796
01:31:32,479 --> 01:31:35,359
branch of the trilemma, if it's a trilemma. So I

1797
01:31:35,359 --> 01:31:38,720
would sesh that whole part out first and then come

1798
01:31:38,760 --> 01:31:41,479
back and see if you've got a you know, and

1799
01:31:43,039 --> 01:31:45,960
does this I'll ask you, Marcus, does is this the

1800
01:31:46,039 --> 01:31:48,119
type of thing that would convince somebody not to believe?

1801
01:31:50,039 --> 01:31:50,319
Speaker 6: You know?

1802
01:31:50,760 --> 01:31:55,600
Speaker 9: I I am an agnostic to taste, I believe there's

1803
01:31:55,680 --> 01:31:58,680
more possibility to that God exists and he does not

1804
01:31:59,439 --> 01:32:04,319
for reason that I may cowardly another episode explain.

1805
01:32:03,960 --> 01:32:06,239
Speaker 5: Hold on, can you repeat that you might have missed it?

1806
01:32:06,279 --> 01:32:11,680
You think it's more probable than not, but you're an agnostic. Yeah,

1807
01:32:12,359 --> 01:32:13,399
I don't understand that.

1808
01:32:13,479 --> 01:32:17,199
Speaker 9: Like I use, I choose not to follow him because

1809
01:32:17,319 --> 01:32:19,880
I think he's an evil stadistic be But.

1810
01:32:20,520 --> 01:32:22,560
Speaker 2: Then now I remember Marcus.

1811
01:32:22,399 --> 01:32:24,119
Speaker 5: But you do, but you do hold on.

1812
01:32:24,199 --> 01:32:27,479
Speaker 4: But this is like, this seems confused because then you

1813
01:32:27,560 --> 01:32:31,680
do believe in God. You are a theist. Definitionally, that's

1814
01:32:31,760 --> 01:32:35,079
just definitionally true. You're a theist. You believe God exists.

1815
01:32:35,159 --> 01:32:38,439
It doesn't matter what your additional motivations against or for

1816
01:32:38,520 --> 01:32:38,920
Him are.

1817
01:32:39,039 --> 01:32:39,840
Speaker 5: That's irrelevant.

1818
01:32:40,000 --> 01:32:44,279
Speaker 9: It's just whether I don't know, I don't I don't

1819
01:32:44,279 --> 01:32:46,600
have faith because I don't want to have faith.

1820
01:32:47,600 --> 01:32:50,199
Speaker 4: But that's that's also relevant that not all, not all

1821
01:32:50,319 --> 01:32:55,199
God concepts rely on a on a constitutive concept of faith, right.

1822
01:32:55,239 --> 01:32:57,279
I mean I would argue, yeah, you're going to all

1823
01:32:57,319 --> 01:33:00,600
the concepts have in faith in favor or in a

1824
01:33:00,720 --> 01:33:02,520
comment that you pretty much got to take it on

1825
01:33:02,560 --> 01:33:05,079
faith on these claims. But you can have a view

1826
01:33:05,159 --> 01:33:08,159
of God that where they're like there's no faith in

1827
01:33:08,199 --> 01:33:10,920
the war of the of the of the New God

1828
01:33:11,079 --> 01:33:13,079
story or something like that's not even a thing, right, Like,

1829
01:33:14,199 --> 01:33:17,199
so that's it seems irrelevant, Like you you believe God.

1830
01:33:17,079 --> 01:33:23,800
Speaker 5: Exists, right, and in a way I do. This is

1831
01:33:23,800 --> 01:33:26,199
what I'm interested in. Why should I revise my view

1832
01:33:26,239 --> 01:33:27,600
and think that God exists.

1833
01:33:29,520 --> 01:33:34,640
Speaker 9: Well it's niche, but it's if you want to get

1834
01:33:34,680 --> 01:33:38,840
into that, I can uh say say it to you.

1835
01:33:39,319 --> 01:33:41,680
Speaker 4: I can, Yeah, what what do you what do you

1836
01:33:41,680 --> 01:33:44,159
think would help would help me revise my view and

1837
01:33:44,319 --> 01:33:47,960
go Okay, I think Marcus views giving me some trouble here.

1838
01:33:48,399 --> 01:33:53,119
Speaker 9: I'm not I'm not interestingly evangelizing because I hate God

1839
01:33:53,760 --> 01:33:56,399
pretty much. But if you want to know my views, well,

1840
01:33:56,640 --> 01:33:59,520
why God, it's you're gonna take a little bit of

1841
01:33:59,560 --> 01:34:02,760
pump of why. I think God is still going to

1842
01:34:02,800 --> 01:34:04,039
take a little bit of context.

1843
01:34:04,079 --> 01:34:05,399
Speaker 6: I think uh.

1844
01:34:05,479 --> 01:34:10,479
Speaker 9: Across it is already already knows if he remembers that

1845
01:34:10,600 --> 01:34:11,079
first time.

1846
01:34:11,279 --> 01:34:12,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, I remember this.

1847
01:34:12,520 --> 01:34:13,840
Speaker 5: Now I'm interested.

1848
01:34:14,039 --> 01:34:16,800
Speaker 2: I will I will encourage Marcus.

1849
01:34:16,920 --> 01:34:19,560
Speaker 1: I think the last time we spoke to try to

1850
01:34:19,600 --> 01:34:23,479
summarize at a higher level first, right, like if you

1851
01:34:23,560 --> 01:34:27,439
have uh, you know, a structured argument or if it's

1852
01:34:27,680 --> 01:34:31,119
if it's personal experience. I don't recall where you came from,

1853
01:34:31,159 --> 01:34:33,880
but if you could give us a category first, I

1854
01:34:33,920 --> 01:34:36,479
think that would help guide the conversation. But yeah, I

1855
01:34:36,479 --> 01:34:38,880
do remember this because I found it very interesting. So

1856
01:34:39,000 --> 01:34:41,239
why don't you start off with Mike and give him

1857
01:34:41,239 --> 01:34:45,600
the high level I believe God exists because X Y

1858
01:34:45,840 --> 01:34:46,000
n C.

1859
01:34:46,840 --> 01:34:50,439
Speaker 8: Because it's an itch. It's an itch content.

1860
01:34:50,520 --> 01:34:54,520
Speaker 9: I don't see many people in uh agnostic its.

1861
01:34:55,920 --> 01:34:58,079
Speaker 8: Talk de baby about this.

1862
01:34:58,920 --> 01:34:59,920
Speaker 6: It's about it.

1863
01:35:00,039 --> 01:35:03,000
Speaker 8: Because of this so called prophet called.

1864
01:35:02,880 --> 01:35:06,840
Speaker 9: Ellen White of the Seven Day Advances religion, where she

1865
01:35:07,000 --> 01:35:13,319
had a bunch of weakness I think four weaknesses. Yes,

1866
01:35:13,359 --> 01:35:14,159
she didn't.

1867
01:35:14,319 --> 01:35:17,439
Speaker 4: Talking about the one that had like severe you're talking

1868
01:35:17,439 --> 01:35:20,359
about Wait, you're talking about one that had like severe brain damage?

1869
01:35:20,720 --> 01:35:21,800
Speaker 5: Is that the what you're talking about?

1870
01:35:23,279 --> 01:35:23,359
Speaker 2: It?

1871
01:35:23,520 --> 01:35:27,159
Speaker 5: You know I'm talking about Yeah, like Ellie something name

1872
01:35:28,560 --> 01:35:30,039
Ellen White? Ellen?

1873
01:35:30,079 --> 01:35:30,680
Speaker 6: Why? Yeah?

1874
01:35:31,079 --> 01:35:32,399
Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah.

1875
01:35:32,479 --> 01:35:35,960
Speaker 4: I have an interview from like six years ago with

1876
01:35:35,199 --> 01:35:38,439
the Seventh Day Adventist and I learned a lot about it.

1877
01:35:38,479 --> 01:35:40,680
And uh that So first off, I'm sorry, I don't

1878
01:35:40,720 --> 01:35:43,039
mean to be like rude, but like that you're saying,

1879
01:35:43,079 --> 01:35:44,760
that's that's that was convincing to you.

1880
01:35:44,960 --> 01:35:45,840
Speaker 5: What happened to Ellen?

1881
01:35:48,199 --> 01:35:48,359
Speaker 7: Oh?

1882
01:35:48,600 --> 01:35:53,079
Speaker 9: Well, I I'm conviniced because there are witnesses to have

1883
01:35:53,239 --> 01:35:54,640
conditioned by envision.

1884
01:35:55,600 --> 01:35:59,760
Speaker 1: So I'm sorry, I'm going to interrupt because our listeners

1885
01:35:59,800 --> 01:36:03,399
had heard this before. Marcus, let me interrupt and summarize,

1886
01:36:04,319 --> 01:36:06,319
and you can tell me where I'm wrong, but I,

1887
01:36:06,359 --> 01:36:08,279
as I said, let's keep it at a high level.

1888
01:36:08,760 --> 01:36:12,079
If I recall correctly, and our listeners have heard this before,

1889
01:36:13,760 --> 01:36:17,880
you believe witnesses of the times accounts. That's why you

1890
01:36:17,960 --> 01:36:21,319
believe all of this. And then there was some question

1891
01:36:21,920 --> 01:36:25,520
about some documentations and those there was a little bit

1892
01:36:25,520 --> 01:36:28,319
of a conspiracy theorist about people breaking into offices and

1893
01:36:28,439 --> 01:36:32,199
changing things or or no, maybe it was she prophesied

1894
01:36:32,239 --> 01:36:34,760
things because it was written on a document and people

1895
01:36:34,800 --> 01:36:37,520
attested to the date of the authorship of the document,

1896
01:36:37,560 --> 01:36:41,119
et cetera. But it basically it boils down to you

1897
01:36:41,319 --> 01:36:45,680
accept the claims of people that were involved at the time.

1898
01:36:46,079 --> 01:36:48,520
Is that fair enough just to put it into a category?

1899
01:36:49,079 --> 01:36:55,960
Speaker 9: Yeah, because yes, because it's well documented and their names

1900
01:36:56,039 --> 01:36:58,359
aren't their signatures.

1901
01:36:57,720 --> 01:37:01,039
Speaker 1: And this is I remember this now because we kept

1902
01:37:01,199 --> 01:37:03,840
talking about, like, I'm an attorney and I understand what

1903
01:37:03,880 --> 01:37:06,000
well documented means, and I don't think you too.

1904
01:37:06,720 --> 01:37:06,880
Speaker 6: So.

1905
01:37:09,359 --> 01:37:10,520
Speaker 2: I would encourage everybody.

1906
01:37:10,560 --> 01:37:13,000
Speaker 1: There's a Wikipedia article, there's lots of stuff online for

1907
01:37:13,319 --> 01:37:14,239
Ellen White.

1908
01:37:14,279 --> 01:37:15,279
Speaker 2: You can read that.

1909
01:37:15,680 --> 01:37:20,840
Speaker 1: But the category is you accept evidence of these people

1910
01:37:20,920 --> 01:37:23,800
and some documents, and that is the main reason you

1911
01:37:23,880 --> 01:37:26,000
believe all of this. You know, I'm not trying to

1912
01:37:26,000 --> 01:37:28,159
discount it. I'm just trying to save time because we're

1913
01:37:28,159 --> 01:37:30,840
getting near the end of the show. So that's the category.

1914
01:37:30,880 --> 01:37:33,399
It's not that you have a logical argument, it's not

1915
01:37:33,439 --> 01:37:35,960
that you have evidence like you had a personal experience

1916
01:37:36,039 --> 01:37:38,319
with God. I just want to confirm this is the

1917
01:37:38,359 --> 01:37:40,279
main reason you believe all of this correct.

1918
01:37:40,680 --> 01:37:43,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, Okay, well, and if that's the case, I just

1919
01:37:43,960 --> 01:37:45,680
want to point out so far, since we're doing these

1920
01:37:45,760 --> 01:37:48,199
nice little I think Graham's doing a great job of

1921
01:37:48,239 --> 01:37:49,560
these little book marks, check marks.

1922
01:37:49,600 --> 01:37:50,319
Speaker 5: We know where we're at.

1923
01:37:51,039 --> 01:37:54,800
Speaker 4: I feel no threat to revise my view that you

1924
01:37:54,920 --> 01:37:56,760
believe that a girl was hit in the face with

1925
01:37:56,800 --> 01:37:59,840
a stone and had like prophetic messages subsequently went to

1926
01:37:59,840 --> 01:38:01,960
go right creationist.

1927
01:38:01,600 --> 01:38:04,239
Speaker 5: Style books where she if it.

1928
01:38:04,239 --> 01:38:07,079
Speaker 4: Was so prophetic, why didn't why didn't why didn't she

1929
01:38:07,479 --> 01:38:10,239
get noetic information about biodiversity?

1930
01:38:10,279 --> 01:38:12,600
Speaker 5: And why was she so just vastly wrong about it?

1931
01:38:12,640 --> 01:38:14,760
Speaker 4: Just seems like this seems like a person that was

1932
01:38:14,840 --> 01:38:17,159
hitting the face with the stone that was a little

1933
01:38:17,239 --> 01:38:20,039
high on what she thought she knew and prophetic information.

1934
01:38:20,039 --> 01:38:22,000
I don't know if she was getting that information from God,

1935
01:38:22,000 --> 01:38:24,039
but she was. She wrote stuff on creationism. From what

1936
01:38:24,039 --> 01:38:27,439
I understand, she had like a lot of works, So

1937
01:38:27,520 --> 01:38:30,039
I don't feel threatened to like change my view. That's

1938
01:38:30,039 --> 01:38:32,600
not to say you don't have more, but like do

1939
01:38:32,640 --> 01:38:34,920
you do you understand like why Like I might not

1940
01:38:35,000 --> 01:38:38,399
be convinced by like someone else going well, I believe

1941
01:38:38,439 --> 01:38:42,000
this own white thing and there was reported witnesses, And

1942
01:38:42,000 --> 01:38:42,600
I'm sitting there.

1943
01:38:42,479 --> 01:38:44,520
Speaker 5: Going like, yeah, but have you met any of these people?

1944
01:38:44,760 --> 01:38:45,720
Like how is this?

1945
01:38:46,079 --> 01:38:49,039
Speaker 1: How is She's in the time of Joseph Smith. So

1946
01:38:49,439 --> 01:38:53,119
putting it into context, this is when this great revival

1947
01:38:53,239 --> 01:38:57,039
and creating our own religion stuff was going on across America.

1948
01:38:57,359 --> 01:38:59,479
So this is Joseph Smith era stuff.

1949
01:39:00,039 --> 01:39:02,079
Speaker 5: I just don't you know, it's ostensibly different than.

1950
01:39:03,600 --> 01:39:07,279
Speaker 4: Anyone any Christian that comes back to you and says like, oh,

1951
01:39:07,319 --> 01:39:10,319
well these look at the Gospels and what they reported

1952
01:39:10,359 --> 01:39:13,119
about Jesus and stuff, like You're on this level playing

1953
01:39:13,159 --> 01:39:16,840
field that just seems epistemically like bankrupt or like just

1954
01:39:16,920 --> 01:39:19,920
really low bar to be, Like, well, I heard these

1955
01:39:19,920 --> 01:39:22,720
other people heard a story that I heard in we

1956
01:39:22,760 --> 01:39:24,760
don't have first hand experience of like her getting prophetic,

1957
01:39:24,800 --> 01:39:26,840
but she just reports it, Like sure, I could grant

1958
01:39:26,880 --> 01:39:30,760
that all of these people saw her, like you know,

1959
01:39:31,800 --> 01:39:34,560
say these things and do these things. But it's irrelevant

1960
01:39:34,560 --> 01:39:37,479
of whether or not she's like actually getting a prophetic message.

1961
01:39:37,479 --> 01:39:39,359
There's still like all of our work left ahead of us.

1962
01:39:39,439 --> 01:39:42,159
I feel like if I granted so many elements of

1963
01:39:42,600 --> 01:39:45,199
your belief here, I still would be like, but why

1964
01:39:45,199 --> 01:39:47,119
should I think that she's reporting the truth and not

1965
01:39:47,159 --> 01:39:47,640
just lying?

1966
01:39:49,760 --> 01:39:53,399
Speaker 9: Okay, so can you give me I know the time

1967
01:39:53,479 --> 01:39:54,840
is sharp, but can you give me a.

1968
01:39:55,000 --> 01:39:58,239
Speaker 5: Minu Oh yeah, put a minute on the clock.

1969
01:39:58,359 --> 01:40:00,640
Speaker 2: Ye, go ahead.

1970
01:40:03,079 --> 01:40:07,119
Speaker 9: So there is this book written by this eventist minister

1971
01:40:07,800 --> 01:40:12,680
how the Second Great advent Movement, and in me has

1972
01:40:13,520 --> 01:40:15,359
five signatures from.

1973
01:40:15,199 --> 01:40:19,399
Speaker 8: People who who saw her in.

1974
01:40:19,560 --> 01:40:24,119
Speaker 9: Vision uh and saw doctors that administering tests on her.

1975
01:40:24,880 --> 01:40:29,279
And they and they say the doctors nothing, not themselves,

1976
01:40:29,359 --> 01:40:32,920
not the people, the doctors saying, yeah, I couldn't detect

1977
01:40:33,000 --> 01:40:39,640
any breathing. I cannot explain this. And these doctors and

1978
01:40:39,720 --> 01:40:42,079
this is the thing that gets to me. These doctors

1979
01:40:42,199 --> 01:40:45,680
were named. There is specifically a name name, so anyone

1980
01:40:45,720 --> 01:40:48,319
could go and talk to these doctors. And this prove

1981
01:40:48,399 --> 01:40:52,279
the whole history because was just invaded, invented. I think

1982
01:40:52,319 --> 01:40:56,960
one of the doctors was doctor called doctor Lord. I

1983
01:40:57,000 --> 01:41:00,359
did that your research, and that may be his name

1984
01:41:00,399 --> 01:41:04,359
was Charles Dart, But I could finding why could anyone else.

1985
01:41:05,479 --> 01:41:06,600
Speaker 2: So here's a question I have.

1986
01:41:06,680 --> 01:41:09,000
Speaker 5: You've given you a minute.

1987
01:41:09,079 --> 01:41:12,039
Speaker 1: What you're doing is a very common thing that we hear,

1988
01:41:12,119 --> 01:41:16,880
which is this there's no explanation for this. I'm taking

1989
01:41:17,000 --> 01:41:20,960
this evidence, this document is true. I'm taking this person's

1990
01:41:21,000 --> 01:41:24,680
testimony is true. I'm taking the stories of how impeachable

1991
01:41:24,800 --> 01:41:27,680
their testimony was as true. And you're dealing with a

1992
01:41:27,680 --> 01:41:32,199
handful of people, right. I can't tell you the number

1993
01:41:32,239 --> 01:41:35,359
of times I've heard that about all sorts of claims.

1994
01:41:35,760 --> 01:41:35,920
Speaker 2: Right.

1995
01:41:36,119 --> 01:41:39,880
Speaker 1: I've heard that about the origin of the Quran. I've

1996
01:41:39,880 --> 01:41:43,560
heard that about cultists. I've heard that from you. I've

1997
01:41:43,560 --> 01:41:46,079
heard that from lots of people, and they're all different claims,

1998
01:41:46,079 --> 01:41:47,319
and they all can't be true.

1999
01:41:47,960 --> 01:41:48,720
Speaker 2: So I'm confused.

2000
01:41:48,840 --> 01:41:51,159
Speaker 1: Is why you put so much weight into these stories

2001
01:41:51,560 --> 01:41:54,600
when it's very easy for somebody to stay up, come

2002
01:41:54,680 --> 01:41:56,960
up to me and say, man, there was this guy and.

2003
01:41:56,920 --> 01:42:00,039
Speaker 2: He was driving along and he hit a bridge.

2004
01:41:59,680 --> 01:42:02,479
Speaker 1: With him car, and every doctor said it would be

2005
01:42:02,560 --> 01:42:05,800
impossible for anybody to survive something like that, and he did,

2006
01:42:06,000 --> 01:42:08,840
and he said it's because Jesus, therefore Jesus is real.

2007
01:42:09,159 --> 01:42:11,560
That's kind of in the same space that you're doing.

2008
01:42:12,000 --> 01:42:15,199
When the commonplace answer is, well, the doctors are wrong

2009
01:42:15,319 --> 01:42:18,159
or the stories about what the doctors said are wrong.

2010
01:42:18,279 --> 01:42:21,000
Speaker 5: It's worse also, like hundred plus years.

2011
01:42:21,399 --> 01:42:22,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's all outdated.

2012
01:42:22,920 --> 01:42:25,359
Speaker 1: It's all what we would we most of this evidence

2013
01:42:25,399 --> 01:42:27,800
would not be admissible in the court of law these days. Like,

2014
01:42:27,960 --> 01:42:31,560
there's all this stuff that's problematic. I'm fascinated why you

2015
01:42:31,600 --> 01:42:34,760
find that set so convincing as opposed to all the

2016
01:42:34,800 --> 01:42:36,279
other sets of similar stuff.

2017
01:42:36,640 --> 01:42:39,000
Speaker 4: That's Graham a brilliant point, because I like, literally what

2018
01:42:39,039 --> 01:42:41,520
I wanted to say. Why not then, on turn, take

2019
01:42:41,560 --> 01:42:43,720
all these other views that just contradict the view.

2020
01:42:43,560 --> 01:42:44,760
Speaker 5: But for the same reasons.

2021
01:42:44,800 --> 01:42:47,640
Speaker 1: You know, Yeah, so what about this story is so

2022
01:42:47,720 --> 01:42:51,760
appealing to you outside the somebody who told it to

2023
01:42:51,800 --> 01:42:53,520
you or wrote about it said, no, it would have

2024
01:42:53,520 --> 01:42:56,760
been impossible for the doctor to know. Therefore true.

2025
01:42:57,159 --> 01:42:58,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, where does Graham's analogy fall apart?

2026
01:43:04,279 --> 01:43:07,880
Speaker 9: You know, it's just because anyone, like I mean, anyone

2027
01:43:07,920 --> 01:43:11,079
who would have read this book would have simply going

2028
01:43:11,119 --> 01:43:15,279
to that doctor who was named was named there was

2029
01:43:15,399 --> 01:43:17,319
name and said, hey, did you read it?

2030
01:43:17,880 --> 01:43:19,119
Speaker 2: I'm gonna interrupt you.

2031
01:43:19,119 --> 01:43:21,079
Speaker 1: You've said that a bunch of times anyone could have

2032
01:43:21,159 --> 01:43:22,319
disproven and they didn't.

2033
01:43:22,920 --> 01:43:24,720
Speaker 2: That's not an argument, it's not.

2034
01:43:25,159 --> 01:43:27,479
Speaker 1: That's just saying that they either there was a missed

2035
01:43:27,520 --> 01:43:29,920
opportunity or I have no reason to believe you saying

2036
01:43:29,960 --> 01:43:32,680
anyone could have gone and disproven it. But even if

2037
01:43:32,680 --> 01:43:35,399
nobody did, that's not an argument as to why it's

2038
01:43:35,640 --> 01:43:40,000
true or even like in the realm of being believable, Like,

2039
01:43:40,039 --> 01:43:42,479
there's lots of claims out there that nobody's disproven that

2040
01:43:42,560 --> 01:43:43,479
you don't believe.

2041
01:43:47,159 --> 01:43:52,560
Speaker 8: So uh uh, what you would do?

2042
01:43:52,600 --> 01:43:57,079
Speaker 9: You accept us as evidence? Us evidence?

2043
01:43:57,560 --> 01:43:57,960
Speaker 5: J Mike.

2044
01:43:58,159 --> 01:44:01,199
Speaker 1: We just talked about this before the show Giant Letters

2045
01:44:01,239 --> 01:44:05,119
in the Sky. What evidence would you accept for proof

2046
01:44:05,159 --> 01:44:06,720
of a supernatural claim?

2047
01:44:07,000 --> 01:44:08,079
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, I.

2048
01:44:08,319 --> 01:44:10,800
Speaker 4: Am all really weirded out by those kind of questions, Like, well,

2049
01:44:10,800 --> 01:44:13,880
I don't know if you phrase it in that that way,

2050
01:44:13,920 --> 01:44:16,680
but if it was one of these kind of what

2051
01:44:16,720 --> 01:44:18,520
do you accept a lot of times, I don't know,

2052
01:44:18,560 --> 01:44:23,479
if someone presents this scenario of like like you know

2053
01:44:23,680 --> 01:44:25,960
the letters in the sky, or like would you change like,

2054
01:44:26,039 --> 01:44:28,359
I don't really know. I don't like the problem is,

2055
01:44:28,399 --> 01:44:30,840
I don't think I live in that world like that's

2056
01:44:31,279 --> 01:44:34,199
you're asking me to imagine a world that goes against

2057
01:44:34,319 --> 01:44:38,119
my metaphysics, which is like, you know, something akin to naturalism.

2058
01:44:38,359 --> 01:44:42,199
So you're like, hey, assume naturalism is false the thing

2059
01:44:42,279 --> 01:44:44,600
you think is true. Would you believe this thing if

2060
01:44:44,640 --> 01:44:46,479
this whole thing that wasn't the way the world is

2061
01:44:46,600 --> 01:44:47,000
was that way.

2062
01:44:47,000 --> 01:44:49,039
Speaker 5: I'm like, I don't know, I might, but it just

2063
01:44:49,079 --> 01:44:51,520
sounds like if God exists, would you think God existed

2064
01:44:51,520 --> 01:44:52,479
and you had better evidence?

2065
01:44:52,560 --> 01:44:54,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean maybe if you construct the evidence in

2066
01:44:54,640 --> 01:44:56,960
such a way that I'm like, yeah, seems pretty reasonable

2067
01:44:57,000 --> 01:44:57,560
to believe it.

2068
01:44:58,079 --> 01:45:00,479
Speaker 5: But I don't believe in a world like that.

2069
01:45:00,560 --> 01:45:03,159
Speaker 4: What I would rather do the world I live in

2070
01:45:03,279 --> 01:45:05,920
is I view these kind of views like my even

2071
01:45:05,920 --> 01:45:09,800
my type of naturalism, as these are hypotheses. These are

2072
01:45:09,880 --> 01:45:13,920
views that we have to rely like the science is

2073
01:45:13,960 --> 01:45:17,359
blind to you can take all the empirical data and

2074
01:45:17,359 --> 01:45:20,199
come up with all these spooky, crazy metaphysics that work

2075
01:45:20,239 --> 01:45:20,479
with it.

2076
01:45:20,520 --> 01:45:22,239
Speaker 5: You can be an idealist, you'd be all these sorts

2077
01:45:22,279 --> 01:45:22,680
of things.

2078
01:45:23,079 --> 01:45:25,840
Speaker 4: And so for me to believe any of these kind

2079
01:45:25,880 --> 01:45:28,680
of metaphysical claims about God and all these kind of things.

2080
01:45:28,760 --> 01:45:30,199
Speaker 5: What I need is something.

2081
01:45:30,119 --> 01:45:37,720
Speaker 4: More metaphysical, like a methodology in determining which metaphysical hypothesis

2082
01:45:37,720 --> 01:45:39,680
we should prefer. And I think the best way about

2083
01:45:39,720 --> 01:45:43,520
doing that is simplicity, you know, versus explanatory breadth and depth.

2084
01:45:43,640 --> 01:45:45,920
Speaker 5: You want this trade off simple.

2085
01:45:45,680 --> 01:45:49,960
Speaker 4: Theory, and you want the trade off of having great

2086
01:45:50,000 --> 01:45:54,680
explanatory breadth and depth. Right, I'm not going to convince

2087
01:45:54,760 --> 01:45:57,039
that like someone heard a story or something, you would

2088
01:45:57,079 --> 01:45:59,039
have to lay out your world Like if someone wanted

2089
01:45:59,039 --> 01:46:00,720
me to believe in God, what they would have to

2090
01:46:00,760 --> 01:46:03,359
do is go through a worldview comparison and show me

2091
01:46:03,399 --> 01:46:08,319
that for each point that we go on, theism is. Sure,

2092
01:46:08,319 --> 01:46:11,680
it's not simpler, but it better explains things that naturalism can't.

2093
01:46:11,800 --> 01:46:13,479
Speaker 5: And I've yet to have that type of a person

2094
01:46:13,840 --> 01:46:14,199
fall in.

2095
01:46:14,680 --> 01:46:17,119
Speaker 1: Let me ask, Let me ask Marcos like, I agree

2096
01:46:17,159 --> 01:46:19,760
with that, and let me ask Marcos.

2097
01:46:19,840 --> 01:46:19,960
Speaker 6: Right.

2098
01:46:20,319 --> 01:46:22,159
Speaker 1: A lot of times when I hear this, they say, well,

2099
01:46:22,199 --> 01:46:24,920
what evidence would you accept? There's this, I hear this

2100
01:46:25,079 --> 01:46:30,680
implicit implicit parenthetical comment at the end, it's what evidence

2101
01:46:30,680 --> 01:46:31,600
would you accept?

2102
01:46:31,840 --> 01:46:32,560
Speaker 2: Parentheses?

2103
01:46:32,760 --> 01:46:36,079
Speaker 1: Because there's got to be a line somewhere, right, that's

2104
01:46:36,119 --> 01:46:38,960
the implicit sort of argument that's making. Well, you have

2105
01:46:39,039 --> 01:46:40,760
to accept some sort of evidence.

2106
01:46:41,439 --> 01:46:44,159
Speaker 2: What is it? What would be satisfying? I'm going to

2107
01:46:44,239 --> 01:46:45,319
ask you what.

2108
01:46:45,239 --> 01:46:47,600
Speaker 1: Makes you think that there is in the universe that

2109
01:46:47,640 --> 01:46:49,399
we live in, and this may be a flavor of

2110
01:46:49,399 --> 01:46:52,560
what Mike's talking about, where that would even be possible

2111
01:46:52,960 --> 01:46:56,720
to present evidence of a supernatural cause?

2112
01:46:57,439 --> 01:46:58,760
Speaker 2: That may be impossible.

2113
01:46:59,000 --> 01:47:01,119
Speaker 5: Yeah, because you're exactly that, you're asking something.

2114
01:47:00,880 --> 01:47:05,199
Speaker 4: That's definitionally it will be impossible under my naturalism.

2115
01:47:05,680 --> 01:47:09,159
Speaker 2: Right, So do you think there must be a line?

2116
01:47:09,239 --> 01:47:09,640
Is it is it?

2117
01:47:09,680 --> 01:47:11,840
Speaker 1: Would it be a satisfying answer for us to say

2118
01:47:11,840 --> 01:47:14,479
we don't know? Or would it would it be satisfying

2119
01:47:14,520 --> 01:47:17,880
to say, actually, given what we understand about physics and

2120
01:47:17,920 --> 01:47:20,560
what you're claiming is the definition of supernatural, it would

2121
01:47:20,560 --> 01:47:23,960
be impossible to provide sufficient evidence of a supernatural clause

2122
01:47:24,239 --> 01:47:27,359
because there's no way to reach outside the natural to

2123
01:47:27,520 --> 01:47:33,319
prove the supernatural, or put more simply, uh, maybe nothing.

2124
01:47:33,800 --> 01:47:34,840
Speaker 2: Is that an okay answer?

2125
01:47:36,319 --> 01:47:36,560
Speaker 4: Yeah?

2126
01:47:36,600 --> 01:47:40,159
Speaker 7: But if I saw look, I know, but if I saw.

2127
01:47:40,000 --> 01:47:42,800
Speaker 8: Someone not read for two hours and.

2128
01:47:42,760 --> 01:47:46,119
Speaker 9: The doctors say, I don't have the doctors most sparified

2129
01:47:46,399 --> 01:47:49,039
people to deal with atips say, I have no idea

2130
01:47:49,039 --> 01:47:51,640
what's going on here? It must be paranormal.

2131
01:47:51,960 --> 01:47:55,560
Speaker 1: And honestly, then you're putting your faith in a doctor

2132
01:47:55,880 --> 01:47:59,479
who has no evidence that the paranormal even exists, and

2133
01:47:59,520 --> 01:48:03,319
who is making an argument from ignorance. I don't know

2134
01:48:03,399 --> 01:48:06,319
how this could happen. Therefore, this thing I can't explain

2135
01:48:06,439 --> 01:48:08,840
must be the answer. That's what you're putting your faith in.

2136
01:48:09,680 --> 01:48:12,119
You said you don't have faith. You've got faith in stories,

2137
01:48:12,199 --> 01:48:16,199
my friend, you've got you've got faith in the recorded

2138
01:48:16,239 --> 01:48:19,279
words from one hundred and something years ago, two hundred

2139
01:48:19,319 --> 01:48:24,279
years ago of a doctor who wasn't the wasn't the

2140
01:48:26,239 --> 01:48:29,239
person that we can all go and examine in question.

2141
01:48:29,319 --> 01:48:32,199
That person's not available for cross examination. The person who

2142
01:48:32,279 --> 01:48:36,039
recorded what the doctor allegedly said is not available for

2143
01:48:36,079 --> 01:48:36,920
cross examination.

2144
01:48:37,000 --> 01:48:39,319
Speaker 5: Oh he said it. He said it. The title of

2145
01:48:39,359 --> 01:48:40,319
the movie like.

2146
01:48:40,319 --> 01:48:45,000
Speaker 1: That, you know, like there's like that's why we have

2147
01:48:45,520 --> 01:48:49,399
in courts of law, you know, statutes of limitation on

2148
01:48:49,479 --> 01:48:49,960
certain things.

2149
01:48:50,000 --> 01:48:51,640
Speaker 2: Because evidence deteriorates.

2150
01:48:51,960 --> 01:48:54,960
Speaker 1: We can't we don't allow hearsay, because we want to

2151
01:48:55,000 --> 01:48:57,199
talk to the person who actually said the thing, not

2152
01:48:57,239 --> 01:48:59,760
the person who claims they heard the thing being said.

2153
01:49:00,319 --> 01:49:02,520
We've got all of these standards we've developed as a

2154
01:49:02,520 --> 01:49:06,359
society to ensure that we get the best possible evidence

2155
01:49:06,399 --> 01:49:09,399
in front of a jury, and you're going two orders

2156
01:49:09,439 --> 01:49:13,840
of magnitude below what we would call reliable evidence in

2157
01:49:13,920 --> 01:49:20,840
any serious hearing. So I continue to be impressed at

2158
01:49:20,880 --> 01:49:25,359
your ability to argue for reliance on one or a

2159
01:49:25,399 --> 01:49:28,359
handful of people from one hundred, two hundred years ago,

2160
01:49:28,720 --> 01:49:32,399
and their confidence and the fact that what was said

2161
01:49:32,520 --> 01:49:37,039
was recorded correctly and not hyperbole or not slang or whatever,

2162
01:49:37,520 --> 01:49:40,079
and that has convinced you that God exists.

2163
01:49:40,079 --> 01:49:41,039
Speaker 2: I mean, it's impressive.

2164
01:49:42,960 --> 01:49:43,520
Speaker 5: Yes, I know.

2165
01:49:44,119 --> 01:49:48,479
Speaker 8: May I ask you? I don't know if I can,

2166
01:49:48,680 --> 01:49:50,199
but may I ask you a favor?

2167
01:49:51,960 --> 01:49:58,479
Speaker 9: If you may? You know, I would like you to start

2168
01:49:58,560 --> 01:50:00,680
the bout because I don't like living in God.

2169
01:50:00,880 --> 01:50:01,239
Speaker 7: I do.

2170
01:50:01,359 --> 01:50:03,399
Speaker 9: I do believe in God, and I want I don't

2171
01:50:03,520 --> 01:50:03,880
like kids.

2172
01:50:04,920 --> 01:50:06,720
Speaker 5: He's fascinating dynamic.

2173
01:50:07,680 --> 01:50:12,760
Speaker 9: I keep imagine my options are either hell or heaven.

2174
01:50:13,000 --> 01:50:13,439
Speaker 5: Or heaven.

2175
01:50:13,520 --> 01:50:16,720
Speaker 8: I don't want to go with in because he said,

2176
01:50:17,000 --> 01:50:17,600
if you have.

2177
01:50:17,640 --> 01:50:21,399
Speaker 9: To abandon your father or your mother, and imagine if

2178
01:50:21,399 --> 01:50:24,399
this forever with my father or my mother or people

2179
01:50:24,479 --> 01:50:27,640
I'm very close with, and honestly.

2180
01:50:27,359 --> 01:50:28,000
Speaker 6: It's I.

2181
01:50:29,479 --> 01:50:32,800
Speaker 9: It's it's giving me inside, honestly.

2182
01:50:33,439 --> 01:50:35,920
Speaker 5: That that idea that it might be more of a

2183
01:50:35,960 --> 01:50:40,359
grand things. I know, you know, like gram I always

2184
01:50:40,600 --> 01:50:42,520
you know, were you a cradle atheist? Are you a believer?

2185
01:50:43,520 --> 01:50:44,680
Speaker 2: Kind of cradle atheist?

2186
01:50:44,840 --> 01:50:46,880
Speaker 1: I only I only would have said yes, I believe

2187
01:50:46,880 --> 01:50:48,800
in God when I was very young and going to

2188
01:50:49,119 --> 01:50:53,520
a Christian school. But once once things got like, oh

2189
01:50:53,680 --> 01:50:55,800
people really believe this, this isn't just a story. I

2190
01:50:55,840 --> 01:50:58,479
pretty much yeah, And then my family was never like

2191
01:50:58,560 --> 01:51:01,359
there was no indoctrination. It was just sort of like, yeah, okay,

2192
01:51:01,479 --> 01:51:01,960
I'll go long.

2193
01:51:02,079 --> 01:51:02,239
Speaker 6: Yeah.

2194
01:51:02,239 --> 01:51:06,199
Speaker 5: I struggle with this fear of hell thing that people

2195
01:51:06,199 --> 01:51:06,720
bring up.

2196
01:51:06,600 --> 01:51:09,720
Speaker 4: Because I haven't had that problem, Like hell wasn't the

2197
01:51:09,880 --> 01:51:14,520
concept like magically eternal, eternal punishment land sounds very silly

2198
01:51:14,560 --> 01:51:19,239
to me. That sounds very This is what humans want

2199
01:51:19,359 --> 01:51:21,720
because they see a lot of injustice in the world.

2200
01:51:21,840 --> 01:51:24,000
Speaker 1: We had a call, Mike, I'm glad you brought this

2201
01:51:24,119 --> 01:51:25,960
up the two weeks ago when I was on We

2202
01:51:26,000 --> 01:51:29,079
had a call from a woman who after an hour

2203
01:51:29,159 --> 01:51:31,760
basically said that's why she believes like she had gone

2204
01:51:31,760 --> 01:51:34,720
through some ship in her life and it was one

2205
01:51:34,760 --> 01:51:37,359
of the most honest calls we've ever had, and we

2206
01:51:37,439 --> 01:51:40,720
talked about it. I hope she's doing well, but she

2207
01:51:41,119 --> 01:51:44,640
literally was just like, I want there to be punishment.

2208
01:51:44,840 --> 01:51:47,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Well, we don't.

2209
01:51:47,800 --> 01:51:58,199
Speaker 9: Advocate people the skeptical from inquire like the journal people in.

2210
01:51:58,199 --> 01:52:00,439
Speaker 2: That I don't know anybody there, No, No.

2211
01:52:00,479 --> 01:52:03,840
Speaker 5: I don't. Oh, I know, I know people I run

2212
01:52:03,880 --> 01:52:04,239
into in.

2213
01:52:04,199 --> 01:52:07,319
Speaker 4: The debate spaces as basically basically it for me.

2214
01:52:08,000 --> 01:52:10,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, but what was the what was the favor? Marcus?

2215
01:52:10,600 --> 01:52:12,199
Want to wrap that up with, like, what are you

2216
01:52:12,239 --> 01:52:12,600
looking for?

2217
01:52:13,920 --> 01:52:17,279
Speaker 9: Because I would like to be an skeptical investigation of

2218
01:52:17,399 --> 01:52:23,159
these claims because everyone I see doesn't have it, because

2219
01:52:23,159 --> 01:52:25,920
I don't see that much interacted with I see there's

2220
01:52:25,920 --> 01:52:27,600
skeptical investigations.

2221
01:52:27,039 --> 01:52:29,640
Speaker 5: From got to start internally, there's Yeah.

2222
01:52:29,640 --> 01:52:31,840
Speaker 1: I was going to say, there's two things I can suggest,

2223
01:52:31,840 --> 01:52:34,319
and I'm sure Mike has some as well. One is

2224
01:52:35,600 --> 01:52:39,920
to realize the non uniqueness of the story you're accepting, Okay,

2225
01:52:40,720 --> 01:52:44,039
that if you really are curious, go out and learn

2226
01:52:44,039 --> 01:52:47,119
about all the other origin stories of all the other

2227
01:52:47,600 --> 01:52:50,479
minor religions, or more seriously.

2228
01:52:50,119 --> 01:52:50,760
Speaker 2: Ones like the one.

2229
01:52:50,800 --> 01:52:52,279
Speaker 1: The last time we spoke, I think I brought up

2230
01:52:52,359 --> 01:52:55,239
Joseph Smith in Mormonism. Right, there's a reason you don't

2231
01:52:55,239 --> 01:52:57,800
believe that, but you believe the Seventh Day event is one.

2232
01:52:57,880 --> 01:53:00,640
Although the level of evidence for both is about on

2233
01:53:00,760 --> 01:53:04,000
par a hand a handful of people to testify that

2234
01:53:04,560 --> 01:53:07,640
what they saw, what Joseph Smith do, even though he

2235
01:53:07,720 --> 01:53:10,359
had this record of doing all sorts of deceitful things

2236
01:53:10,439 --> 01:53:13,880
and all that stuff. But there's there's a million of

2237
01:53:13,880 --> 01:53:16,720
them to go and read about all of them and

2238
01:53:16,760 --> 01:53:19,279
then say, what makes this one special? And is it

2239
01:53:19,359 --> 01:53:23,199
special enough to prove to me enough to pay the

2240
01:53:23,239 --> 01:53:26,000
cost of believing and all of this stuff, that this

2241
01:53:26,159 --> 01:53:30,159
is actually true rather than just yet another.

2242
01:53:29,840 --> 01:53:32,920
Speaker 2: Case of people tell stories.

2243
01:53:33,039 --> 01:53:35,479
Speaker 1: Man, you've been on the block, you know you're talking

2244
01:53:35,520 --> 01:53:37,720
to friends that talk about how big the fish was

2245
01:53:37,760 --> 01:53:40,199
that they caught, or how it was a miracle that

2246
01:53:40,239 --> 01:53:43,640
the Bible survived the fire in the church.

2247
01:53:43,439 --> 01:53:44,760
Speaker 2: Or whatever the story is.

2248
01:53:44,840 --> 01:53:48,880
Speaker 1: It's always flavored with these adjectives and adverbs, right, that

2249
01:53:48,960 --> 01:53:51,119
you don't need if you're being serious. It's always like

2250
01:53:51,600 --> 01:53:54,680
the Bible was completely safe and it should have like

2251
01:53:54,800 --> 01:53:57,359
all the experts agreed the Bible should have burned. And

2252
01:53:58,479 --> 01:54:00,760
you know that's the same as people who are nine

2253
01:54:00,760 --> 01:54:04,039
to eleven truthers, right, They still they tell the same stories,

2254
01:54:04,319 --> 01:54:05,399
but it's all bullshit.

2255
01:54:05,479 --> 01:54:08,880
Speaker 2: It's just people talking. And back then they wrote it down.

2256
01:54:12,039 --> 01:54:14,119
Speaker 5: It was on fire for nine hours with it right night.

2257
01:54:14,239 --> 01:54:19,119
Speaker 1: So that's my first tip is go read all the

2258
01:54:19,239 --> 01:54:23,000
other stories and realize how mundane her story is. That's first,

2259
01:54:23,800 --> 01:54:26,000
and then second was I think what Mike was hinting

2260
01:54:26,079 --> 01:54:29,319
at is is just accept the fact that there's nothing

2261
01:54:29,439 --> 01:54:34,159
special about religious beliefs. Apply the same level of skepticism.

2262
01:54:34,600 --> 01:54:38,039
The more outrageous acclaim gets, the more skeptical you should

2263
01:54:38,079 --> 01:54:40,600
be right, you should demand more evidence of it. Right,

2264
01:54:40,920 --> 01:54:45,199
if I go to court and I charge somebody with jaywalking,

2265
01:54:46,119 --> 01:54:48,600
I'm going to have to provide very little evidence, and

2266
01:54:48,640 --> 01:54:52,079
there will be very few resources put into that trial.

2267
01:54:52,720 --> 01:54:57,119
There won't be pre trial hearings, there won't be disclosure

2268
01:54:57,159 --> 01:55:00,239
or discovery, there won't be all sorts of motions because

2269
01:55:00,239 --> 01:55:02,840
it's a mundane thing. May and the consequences it being

2270
01:55:02,880 --> 01:55:05,560
convicted to jaywalking are so small. But if I'm going

2271
01:55:05,600 --> 01:55:08,840
to court and trying to convict somebody of murder, there's

2272
01:55:08,880 --> 01:55:11,880
going to be eight million pages of documents, all sorts

2273
01:55:11,880 --> 01:55:14,199
of subpoenas, all sorts of stuff. And that's just the

2274
01:55:14,319 --> 01:55:16,479
murder of one human being. That's not the question of

2275
01:55:16,520 --> 01:55:18,720
whether or not there's an eternal life after this one.

2276
01:55:19,239 --> 01:55:23,560
So demand the appropriate level of evidence before you fall

2277
01:55:23,600 --> 01:55:26,640
in with any one camp, because there's a million of them.

2278
01:55:26,680 --> 01:55:28,800
What makes you think that this particular story is the

2279
01:55:28,880 --> 01:55:31,960
right one much less you know you have evidence for it, Mike,

2280
01:55:32,000 --> 01:55:33,479
what other advice do you have to give?

2281
01:55:33,880 --> 01:55:34,199
Speaker 6: Uh?

2282
01:55:34,239 --> 01:55:36,680
Speaker 5: Well, I probably mean the same thing.

2283
01:55:36,680 --> 01:55:38,720
Speaker 4: And basically you said there, but because like you hear

2284
01:55:38,760 --> 01:55:42,800
this slogan of like extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and

2285
01:55:43,079 --> 01:55:45,520
people throw that out a lot of theists like scoff

2286
01:55:45,560 --> 01:55:47,279
at it and stuff. But if you think about this

2287
01:55:47,960 --> 01:55:51,520
in a sense of like your background data that you have,

2288
01:55:51,960 --> 01:55:54,079
and someone gives you these kind of claims like I

2289
01:55:54,079 --> 01:55:56,800
saw an alien or I saw an alien do a

2290
01:55:56,840 --> 01:55:59,880
backflip off of you know, my mom's van or something

2291
01:55:59,920 --> 01:56:02,560
like crazy and absurd, like you find that like I'm

2292
01:56:02,560 --> 01:56:05,720
gonna need a little bit more for that, Like just

2293
01:56:06,000 --> 01:56:08,159
like clearly I am not going to treat this in

2294
01:56:08,199 --> 01:56:11,840
the exact same way and I and yeah, like your

2295
01:56:11,920 --> 01:56:15,800
views are aren't any more special than this Christian view

2296
01:56:15,920 --> 01:56:18,560
or uh well, I guess this is also Christian, but

2297
01:56:18,840 --> 01:56:24,359
alternative Christian views. I'd really look inward and realize that

2298
01:56:24,680 --> 01:56:28,479
what this process is is not a microwavable process. You

2299
01:56:28,520 --> 01:56:31,479
don't just pop yourself in and then like you come

2300
01:56:31,520 --> 01:56:34,600
out hot and ready. You know you got it's a

2301
01:56:34,680 --> 01:56:37,640
crock pot, man. You gotta let it really stew. And

2302
01:56:38,560 --> 01:56:43,680
that process of letting it stew is this internal dialogue

2303
01:56:43,680 --> 01:56:47,119
with yourself and like getting a paid like I know,

2304
01:56:47,199 --> 01:56:50,119
for me and the wooly type of beliefs I had,

2305
01:56:51,399 --> 01:56:54,119
I had to like get a like paper out when

2306
01:56:54,159 --> 01:56:55,960
I had a confrontation with a friend and he was

2307
01:56:56,079 --> 01:56:58,239
basically calling me an idiot for stuff I believed, and

2308
01:56:58,279 --> 01:57:00,800
like he's like, you know, dude, you're so smart here,

2309
01:57:00,840 --> 01:57:02,359
Like I grew up with you didn't believe in like

2310
01:57:02,439 --> 01:57:04,199
god like and Christianity all.

2311
01:57:04,119 --> 01:57:05,560
Speaker 5: This stuff, and you believe in this, Like we like,

2312
01:57:05,600 --> 01:57:07,800
what do you like? Why not? He asked this question,

2313
01:57:07,960 --> 01:57:08,840
why do you believe that?

2314
01:57:08,960 --> 01:57:11,720
Speaker 4: And not any of these other claims they seem like

2315
01:57:11,800 --> 01:57:15,159
on a par to me, And that internal reflection for

2316
01:57:15,239 --> 01:57:16,920
me was kind of like really it was a really

2317
01:57:16,960 --> 01:57:20,119
easy deconstruction from my WOOI type of like.

2318
01:57:20,439 --> 01:57:23,000
Speaker 11: Yeah, man, DMT open some doors and you could see

2319
01:57:23,000 --> 01:57:27,960
real realities, Like, you know, I appreciated the empirics of

2320
01:57:28,520 --> 01:57:31,760
the brain more and why we experience stuff like that

2321
01:57:31,920 --> 01:57:33,439
when you take a psychedelic drug.

2322
01:57:33,920 --> 01:57:36,199
Speaker 5: It opened me up just.

2323
01:57:37,720 --> 01:57:40,279
Speaker 4: To way more things that I think I wouldn't have

2324
01:57:40,359 --> 01:57:43,199
if I hadn't had that conversation. I think of writing

2325
01:57:43,239 --> 01:57:46,479
it down and really like going, why the fuck do

2326
01:57:46,560 --> 01:57:47,760
I believe this thing?

2327
01:57:47,920 --> 01:57:50,800
Speaker 5: Like, let me list out some some reasons, right.

2328
01:57:50,720 --> 01:57:54,199
Speaker 4: Reasons for and I find what you'll at least for me,

2329
01:57:54,279 --> 01:57:56,359
I couldn't write a single thing down that I had

2330
01:57:56,760 --> 01:57:59,680
a legitimate reason to think that d MP or these

2331
01:57:59,720 --> 01:58:03,000
other substances were like unlocking doors or salvia and all

2332
01:58:03,000 --> 01:58:05,479
that kind of stuff. Right, Like I was really into

2333
01:58:05,479 --> 01:58:09,399
thinking that I was having some noadic experiences in my life,

2334
01:58:09,680 --> 01:58:09,920
you know.

2335
01:58:10,520 --> 01:58:14,000
Speaker 1: And one other thing, Marcos, just to give you an

2336
01:58:14,000 --> 01:58:16,960
example of what we're talking about, have you ever heard

2337
01:58:17,199 --> 01:58:19,239
of the James River Church in Missouri?

2338
01:58:19,880 --> 01:58:21,319
Speaker 8: Uh No, I haven't.

2339
01:58:21,880 --> 01:58:25,319
Speaker 1: Pastor John Lindell who's the owner of these or a

2340
01:58:25,399 --> 01:58:29,199
pastor at these mega churches in Missouri, lots lots of

2341
01:58:29,239 --> 01:58:34,800
people came out a couple of years ago and gave

2342
01:58:34,840 --> 01:58:38,800
out news of a medical miracle. This woman, Chrissy Thompson,

2343
01:58:39,000 --> 01:58:41,279
had had her toes amputated at.

2344
01:58:41,199 --> 01:58:43,560
Speaker 2: An early age and.

2345
01:58:45,479 --> 01:58:49,119
Speaker 1: Uh she came to one of their services, went backstage

2346
01:58:49,399 --> 01:58:51,119
when she said, Hey, I'd like to my toes to

2347
01:58:51,159 --> 01:58:54,199
grow back. They followed the instructions of the Bible. They

2348
01:58:54,199 --> 01:58:56,800
anointed or toes with oil. They had a prayer group

2349
01:58:56,920 --> 01:59:02,479
pray over her. There were a dozen witnesses. Her toes

2350
01:59:02,920 --> 01:59:06,760
grew back. They had a doctor come in and examine her,

2351
01:59:07,079 --> 01:59:09,760
and that doctor said he's never seen anything like it.

2352
01:59:09,760 --> 01:59:11,600
It had to take an act of God based on

2353
01:59:11,640 --> 01:59:13,600
her medical records and what he saw when he saw

2354
01:59:13,600 --> 01:59:18,720
her toes. And they made a huge press in the

2355
01:59:18,760 --> 01:59:23,479
splash splash in the press for doing this. Why do

2356
01:59:23,560 --> 01:59:27,600
you not believe that story? But you believe this two

2357
01:59:27,680 --> 01:59:30,640
hundred old year old story that happened before cameras were

2358
01:59:30,680 --> 01:59:32,600
everywhere and et cetera.

2359
01:59:33,199 --> 01:59:38,640
Speaker 5: So convenient. Yeah, I'm sorry, Go ahead, I'm sorry. We've

2360
01:59:38,640 --> 01:59:39,159
been talking a lot.

2361
01:59:41,920 --> 01:59:44,319
Speaker 1: So why why do you why do you say, to God,

2362
01:59:44,680 --> 01:59:47,479
show me the toes in the first case, But you

2363
01:59:47,520 --> 01:59:51,640
accept an ancient story based on some hearsay of hearsay

2364
01:59:51,680 --> 01:59:54,800
of hearsay in the case of the Seventh Day Adventists, you.

2365
01:59:54,720 --> 01:59:58,600
Speaker 5: Can go to God's only fans only gotten show.

2366
01:59:58,439 --> 02:00:00,000
Speaker 2: Me the toes. Yeah, so, what are your thought?

2367
02:00:02,560 --> 02:00:04,359
Speaker 8: I haven't heard of this story yet.

2368
02:00:04,600 --> 02:00:06,520
Speaker 1: Okay, let me tell you how it ends. All right,

2369
02:00:06,560 --> 02:00:10,479
Here's how the story ended. They called in experts from

2370
02:00:10,560 --> 02:00:14,159
nih They agreed with her. They won the Nobel Prize

2371
02:00:14,560 --> 02:00:19,479
in medicine. Every university around Earth has opened a theological

2372
02:00:19,479 --> 02:00:21,840
school of medicine to study this phinomal Oh wait, no,

2373
02:00:22,199 --> 02:00:24,479
that's what would have happened if it were true, right,

2374
02:00:25,079 --> 02:00:26,760
this is what we have to sort of studies Like,

2375
02:00:27,119 --> 02:00:29,439
what would have happened if they were serious about it

2376
02:00:29,479 --> 02:00:31,359
is they would have called an independent third parties. The

2377
02:00:31,439 --> 02:00:33,920
doctor turns out was the husband is somebody in the

2378
02:00:33,960 --> 02:00:38,039
prayer group and wasn't her doctor. They refused to show

2379
02:00:38,079 --> 02:00:40,680
me the toes. Somebody created a website called show Me

2380
02:00:40,760 --> 02:00:43,720
Thetoes dot Com. I did a whole podcast episode on this.

2381
02:00:44,199 --> 02:00:47,000
The person came out, the pastor came out after the

2382
02:00:47,000 --> 02:00:51,000
international press got attention on this, and he came out

2383
02:00:51,039 --> 02:00:55,079
and said out of respect for Chrissy's privacy, we are

2384
02:00:55,199 --> 02:00:57,479
not going to be discussing this further and refuse to

2385
02:00:57,479 --> 02:01:00,479
give any evidence, despite the fact that it probably would

2386
02:01:00,479 --> 02:01:02,960
have bought millions of people to the church. If this

2387
02:01:03,000 --> 02:01:05,439
had been proven true, it would have saved people for Jesus.

2388
02:01:06,119 --> 02:01:10,760
So that's what really happened, Okay, because we have cameras,

2389
02:01:10,800 --> 02:01:12,880
because we have a twenty four hour news cycle, because

2390
02:01:12,880 --> 02:01:17,239
we have the press. But it was more people than

2391
02:01:17,560 --> 02:01:19,760
in the Seventh day Adventists. We're a testifying to the

2392
02:01:19,800 --> 02:01:24,600
truth of this, and they provided video of Chrissy talking

2393
02:01:24,640 --> 02:01:27,680
about this and testifying that this really happened, that her

2394
02:01:27,680 --> 02:01:32,079
toes grew back. So people will lie for a variety

2395
02:01:32,119 --> 02:01:34,560
of reasons. I'm sure they didn't all lie for the

2396
02:01:34,600 --> 02:01:38,560
same reason, but people will lie. And we only don't

2397
02:01:38,600 --> 02:01:42,279
believe this now because of two reasons. One, we now

2398
02:01:42,319 --> 02:01:44,680
live in an era where we demand show me the

2399
02:01:44,720 --> 02:01:47,479
picks or it didn't happen, because we have the ubiquity

2400
02:01:47,560 --> 02:01:51,760
of cameras, but also because we know that in this

2401
02:01:51,960 --> 02:01:55,479
case the claim was a step too far. Why won't

2402
02:01:55,520 --> 02:01:59,439
God heal amputees? Right, that's the website to go visit.

2403
02:01:59,560 --> 02:02:03,720
Why won't God heal amputees. It's amazing that God cures

2404
02:02:03,760 --> 02:02:07,880
cancer that can also naturally go into remission. It's amazing

2405
02:02:07,960 --> 02:02:11,319
that God cures glaucoma that could have been the mistaken

2406
02:02:11,399 --> 02:02:15,199
diagnosis of the physician. But for some reason, we have

2407
02:02:15,439 --> 02:02:18,560
no documented case, even though people pray all the time

2408
02:02:18,640 --> 02:02:23,119
to get their fingers, arms, whatever back of God healing amputees.

2409
02:02:23,680 --> 02:02:27,279
So there's lots of reasons like that that these stories

2410
02:02:27,560 --> 02:02:30,960
should be suspicious to you, especially one from like two

2411
02:02:31,039 --> 02:02:31,840
hundred years ago.

2412
02:02:32,199 --> 02:02:35,279
Speaker 2: Anything to add, Mike, I'll go ahead, Marcus.

2413
02:02:37,319 --> 02:02:41,520
Speaker 9: I would search the history about that. But then but

2414
02:02:41,680 --> 02:02:42,720
I'm afraid if I.

2415
02:02:42,880 --> 02:02:46,520
Speaker 8: Go on to a bedside called so of your totals not.

2416
02:02:46,600 --> 02:02:49,600
Speaker 2: Going on, I think he actually took it.

2417
02:02:51,319 --> 02:02:55,039
Speaker 1: Think yeah, go to Google. Why won't God heal amputees?

2418
02:02:55,079 --> 02:02:57,039
That is one of the sites that made me a

2419
02:02:57,079 --> 02:03:02,960
passionate activist because it is an insanely good argument.

2420
02:03:03,520 --> 02:03:03,720
Speaker 2: Right.

2421
02:03:04,119 --> 02:03:07,000
Speaker 1: This website gives you a lots of examples. But if

2422
02:03:07,000 --> 02:03:11,199
there is a wonderful argument for at least disproving certain

2423
02:03:11,319 --> 02:03:15,399
versions of God, that website helps you disprove a version

2424
02:03:15,439 --> 02:03:18,279
of God that would actually heal like do what he

2425
02:03:18,319 --> 02:03:20,039
says he would do in the Bible. You know, Jesus

2426
02:03:20,039 --> 02:03:22,399
says multiple times to the Bible, just pray for it

2427
02:03:22,479 --> 02:03:25,920
and you'll get it the milk. Truly, truly pray for exactly.

2428
02:03:25,920 --> 02:03:28,079
The milk jug argument came from that website, which is,

2429
02:03:28,720 --> 02:03:31,479
when I pray to Jesus, I either hear yes, I

2430
02:03:31,520 --> 02:03:33,920
hear a no, or I hear a wait or not yet.

2431
02:03:34,399 --> 02:03:36,520
And this website points out if I pray to a

2432
02:03:36,560 --> 02:03:38,640
milk jug, I get a yes, I get a no,

2433
02:03:38,880 --> 02:03:40,920
or I get it not yet or a wait. You

2434
02:03:40,960 --> 02:03:44,520
can't distinguish between God and a milk jug because God doesn't.

2435
02:03:44,199 --> 02:03:47,199
Speaker 5: Heal amputees and milk reading.

2436
02:03:47,680 --> 02:03:52,880
Speaker 2: I was like, so it.

2437
02:03:52,840 --> 02:03:55,199
Speaker 1: Goes to what you're talking about, which is and this

2438
02:03:55,279 --> 02:03:56,680
I don't mean this in a negative way.

2439
02:03:56,680 --> 02:03:58,079
Speaker 2: I mean it in a clinical way.

2440
02:03:58,560 --> 02:04:01,600
Speaker 1: It goes to gullibility, and by that I mean willingness

2441
02:04:01,640 --> 02:04:05,800
to believe despite not having sufficient evidence. And you're willing

2442
02:04:05,840 --> 02:04:08,680
to believe this story for some reason that I cannot fathom.

2443
02:04:09,479 --> 02:04:10,880
I encourage you to go out and read all the

2444
02:04:10,920 --> 02:04:14,920
other stories and judge why you are giving more credence

2445
02:04:14,960 --> 02:04:17,199
to this story than to all the others. Go read

2446
02:04:17,239 --> 02:04:19,760
up on Heaven's Gate, Go read up on Mormonism, go

2447
02:04:19,800 --> 02:04:22,640
read up on the origins of the Quran, just anything

2448
02:04:23,319 --> 02:04:28,920
and see that. You know scientology, right, there's tens of

2449
02:04:28,960 --> 02:04:30,960
thousands of people who will attest to what goes on

2450
02:04:31,039 --> 02:04:32,279
with scientology being real.

2451
02:04:32,439 --> 02:04:33,840
Speaker 2: But I'm assuming you don't believe that.

2452
02:04:34,079 --> 02:04:37,159
Speaker 1: So go out and explore and educate yourself and then

2453
02:04:37,159 --> 02:04:39,359
apply the standards that Mike was talking about, and I

2454
02:04:39,359 --> 02:04:41,319
think you'll find the answer that we would give.

2455
02:04:41,359 --> 02:04:43,479
Speaker 2: I don't know if it will satisfy it.

2456
02:04:43,880 --> 02:04:53,079
Speaker 9: Yes, okay, thank you, Okay, just so I can research

2457
02:04:53,119 --> 02:04:56,560
it is part of my research. What's the name of

2458
02:04:56,560 --> 02:04:58,039
the miracle woman.

2459
02:04:58,039 --> 02:04:58,960
Speaker 8: With the toes?

2460
02:04:59,479 --> 02:05:07,079
Speaker 1: Just google James River Church toes or Chrissy Thompson toes.

2461
02:05:07,840 --> 02:05:10,399
Speaker 5: I don't know that you should do that.

2462
02:05:10,399 --> 02:05:12,159
Speaker 4: That sounds like he's gonna get in trouble with the

2463
02:05:12,680 --> 02:05:13,439
significant other.

2464
02:05:13,920 --> 02:05:17,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, just to just do Church regrow amputated toes and you'll.

2465
02:05:17,640 --> 02:05:20,960
Speaker 5: Find google j Mike Booty picks on.

2466
02:05:21,159 --> 02:05:23,359
Speaker 1: Or go to my website and listen to the whole

2467
02:05:23,439 --> 02:05:26,079
thing where I put up all the video everything. I

2468
02:05:26,119 --> 02:05:30,760
won't pump pump it, but uh, it's all over the interwebs,

2469
02:05:30,880 --> 02:05:35,039
and it's a classic case of he this is the

2470
02:05:35,119 --> 02:05:39,439
Chain Church. They claimed all sorts of miracles that were

2471
02:05:39,960 --> 02:05:44,560
always explainable as natural remissions, natural cures. And then he

2472
02:05:44,640 --> 02:05:47,600
got a little too cocky. He was feeling the spirit

2473
02:05:47,680 --> 02:05:49,840
of the Lord, and he went out there and said,

2474
02:05:49,880 --> 02:05:52,680
you know what, we even grew back amputated toes, and

2475
02:05:52,720 --> 02:05:54,000
all of a sudden he got.

2476
02:05:53,800 --> 02:05:54,800
Speaker 2: More than he bargained for.

2477
02:05:55,359 --> 02:05:58,079
Speaker 1: Literally, there was press from like Japan coming down to

2478
02:05:58,159 --> 02:06:00,479
interview him, and he was like, oh shit, what did

2479
02:06:00,479 --> 02:06:00,800
I do?

2480
02:06:01,680 --> 02:06:03,000
Speaker 2: And everybody clammed up.

2481
02:06:03,119 --> 02:06:05,479
Speaker 1: Nobody would talk about it, and they couldn't provide a

2482
02:06:05,520 --> 02:06:09,199
good reason for doing so, because Chrissy herself did a

2483
02:06:09,279 --> 02:06:12,520
video before to present when he announced this, where she's

2484
02:06:12,600 --> 02:06:15,600
sitting in a mall, hopping on her feet saying, I

2485
02:06:15,640 --> 02:06:17,960
couldn't have done this before my toes grew back. Right,

2486
02:06:18,039 --> 02:06:21,800
go watch those videos, right, testifying on videotape in the

2487
02:06:21,880 --> 02:06:24,520
name of her Lord, which presumably, if her beliefs are true,

2488
02:06:24,800 --> 02:06:28,039
would not look kindly on the lying and deceitfulness of

2489
02:06:28,239 --> 02:06:31,560
violating the ten Commandments and doing so for whatever reason.

2490
02:06:31,920 --> 02:06:35,880
Because she was an indoctrinated follower, she wanted the fame.

2491
02:06:35,960 --> 02:06:38,880
A little bit of both who knows right she was

2492
02:06:38,920 --> 02:06:40,600
sleeping with one of the prayer people.

2493
02:06:40,720 --> 02:06:43,520
Speaker 2: I'm not saying she was, but you have nott idea that.

2494
02:06:43,560 --> 02:06:45,279
Speaker 5: God doesn't exist, so she didn't have much to worry

2495
02:06:45,279 --> 02:06:45,800
about that.

2496
02:06:47,039 --> 02:06:50,000
Speaker 1: But the point is go look at that and realize

2497
02:06:50,039 --> 02:06:53,119
this happens a thousand times a day. This guy got

2498
02:06:53,119 --> 02:06:56,079
caught because they were like, oh, you're finally talking about

2499
02:06:56,119 --> 02:07:00,319
something that is scientifically impossible. Do tell and then they

2500
02:07:00,399 --> 02:07:03,199
shut up. Even though that would have been a miracle

2501
02:07:03,239 --> 02:07:05,359
that would have convinced a lot of people. When people

2502
02:07:05,479 --> 02:07:07,359
when people talk about what would convince you. If I

2503
02:07:07,439 --> 02:07:09,800
was in a room and I watched somebody's toes grow back,

2504
02:07:10,159 --> 02:07:14,079
I would certainly have questions, right, that would be stunning.

2505
02:07:14,319 --> 02:07:16,479
I'd be looking out the window for alien tech. I

2506
02:07:16,520 --> 02:07:19,640
would be like, did you give her like everything? I'd

2507
02:07:19,680 --> 02:07:22,680
be really interested in that. But no, no, they didn't.

2508
02:07:23,039 --> 02:07:26,039
They didn't call in independent doctors, they didn't contact on IH,

2509
02:07:26,119 --> 02:07:28,359
they didn't win the Nobel Prize, all of which would

2510
02:07:28,399 --> 02:07:31,720
have happened if this were true. This happens all the time,

2511
02:07:31,880 --> 02:07:34,880
but most of the most small time players, and I'm

2512
02:07:34,920 --> 02:07:36,680
guessing it happened in the seventh day. I'd be in

2513
02:07:36,800 --> 02:07:40,399
church because the likelihood that there's a million explanations that

2514
02:07:40,439 --> 02:07:43,399
are mundane for what she did, and one that's extraordinary

2515
02:07:43,439 --> 02:07:45,680
that seems to be the same as everybody else's claiming,

2516
02:07:45,720 --> 02:07:50,000
and they all disagree. So start with start follow the toes,

2517
02:07:52,319 --> 02:07:53,279
follow the toes.

2518
02:07:53,439 --> 02:07:55,880
Speaker 2: What do you think, J Mike, I'm not.

2519
02:07:55,920 --> 02:07:58,279
Speaker 5: I mean, I don't want to beat a dead horse.

2520
02:07:58,439 --> 02:08:01,600
I think I think no everything there is, Yeah, I mean,

2521
02:08:01,720 --> 02:08:04,319
I just call back and let's talk about it.

2522
02:08:04,800 --> 02:08:07,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, Marcos, go go look into it, Go research

2523
02:08:07,880 --> 02:08:10,479
ten different you know, popular cults that you don't believe

2524
02:08:10,479 --> 02:08:13,800
in in their origin stories. Pick a, tell me why

2525
02:08:13,840 --> 02:08:17,319
you don't believe those, yet you believe these these supposedly

2526
02:08:17,359 --> 02:08:20,880
inappeachable witnesses that were documented in writing. Yea, and I

2527
02:08:20,880 --> 02:08:24,319
think you'll see that it's it's fairly mundane. And unless

2528
02:08:24,359 --> 02:08:29,079
there's something more, as Jack Nicholson says in a few

2529
02:08:29,079 --> 02:08:31,159
good men, please tell me you have something more than

2530
02:08:31,239 --> 02:08:34,520
phone calls and foot lockers. Give me more than phone

2531
02:08:34,520 --> 02:08:36,680
calls and foot lockers, and then we can talk. But

2532
02:08:36,720 --> 02:08:39,640
thank you very much, Marcos, appreciate it.

2533
02:08:39,680 --> 02:08:40,520
Speaker 5: Thank you, J Mike.

2534
02:08:40,880 --> 02:08:44,359
Speaker 2: We're at the end of our show. We check super chats.

2535
02:08:44,439 --> 02:08:47,520
Speaker 1: Nope, all right, Kelly, can we bring Kelly up to

2536
02:08:47,560 --> 02:08:50,159
talk about what we've just listened to over the last.

2537
02:08:50,199 --> 02:08:52,239
Speaker 4: And he's gonna call me out and be like, hey man,

2538
02:08:52,239 --> 02:08:55,840
you said come up here.

2539
02:08:53,680 --> 02:09:00,359
Speaker 3: And I got to be on plenty of shows today.

2540
02:09:00,399 --> 02:09:00,880
Speaker 7: Believe me.

2541
02:09:02,239 --> 02:09:03,720
Speaker 4: When I saw that in the chat, when you're like,

2542
02:09:03,760 --> 02:09:04,960
I've been on a couple shows that, I was like,

2543
02:09:05,000 --> 02:09:05,760
I don't feel as bad.

2544
02:09:05,800 --> 02:09:14,000
Speaker 12: But you know, cross Examiner, you mentioned what would what

2545
02:09:14,159 --> 02:09:15,960
would have happened if this was true?

2546
02:09:16,039 --> 02:09:16,239
Speaker 7: Right?

2547
02:09:16,279 --> 02:09:19,840
Speaker 12: And that totally resonated with me because I get as

2548
02:09:19,920 --> 02:09:22,640
many of you know, my son now owns my old

2549
02:09:22,720 --> 02:09:24,720
rock shop, so I talk to people that come in

2550
02:09:24,760 --> 02:09:28,479
and want to buy healing crystals all the time. One

2551
02:09:28,520 --> 02:09:30,359
of the things that I always think of is these

2552
02:09:30,399 --> 02:09:34,920
crystals could really heal people. One of two things would happen.

2553
02:09:35,319 --> 02:09:38,319
Either every mother in America would have a ten dollars

2554
02:09:38,319 --> 02:09:40,920
crystal kit in her medicine cabinet for when her kids

2555
02:09:40,960 --> 02:09:44,920
had accidents and skin their knees right, or they would

2556
02:09:44,920 --> 02:09:47,399
come in a box smock Pfizer and be and cost

2557
02:09:47,479 --> 02:09:48,760
like two hundred dollars apiece.

2558
02:09:48,880 --> 02:09:49,119
Speaker 7: Right.

2559
02:09:49,520 --> 02:09:53,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, So there's a bit from a British comedy show

2560
02:09:53,359 --> 02:09:55,159
from I don't know fifteen years ago.

2561
02:09:55,359 --> 02:09:55,920
Speaker 2: Google it.

2562
02:09:55,920 --> 02:09:59,640
Speaker 1: It's called homeopathic er or whatever the A and E

2563
02:10:00,079 --> 02:10:03,239
whatever the term is for the er there, and it's

2564
02:10:03,319 --> 02:10:04,199
all things like.

2565
02:10:04,119 --> 02:10:06,640
Speaker 2: Oh, he's here, he's been shot. Quick get me.

2566
02:10:06,880 --> 02:10:09,479
Speaker 1: You know some Saint John's ward deluded to one in

2567
02:10:09,520 --> 02:10:11,920
a million, and then nurse goes, are you sure is

2568
02:10:11,960 --> 02:10:14,159
that strong enough? He goes, You're right, make it one

2569
02:10:14,199 --> 02:10:18,960
in a billion. That's what the world would look like

2570
02:10:19,000 --> 02:10:20,560
if this were true. You're absolutely true.

2571
02:10:20,640 --> 02:10:21,239
Speaker 5: Yeah. Yeah.

2572
02:10:21,359 --> 02:10:23,840
Speaker 4: It's kind of annoying because it's like, there are medicines

2573
02:10:23,960 --> 02:10:28,159
out there for like muscular dystrophee that like cost when

2574
02:10:28,199 --> 02:10:30,159
I was looking up, well, there's one that was one

2575
02:10:30,239 --> 02:10:33,840
point something million dollars after like the insurance gets involved, right,

2576
02:10:33,880 --> 02:10:36,039
you're talking two point three or two point four before,

2577
02:10:36,560 --> 02:10:39,239
and it's just like, I mean, I don't know why

2578
02:10:39,319 --> 02:10:42,119
a medicine cost that much. There's something very weird to me.

2579
02:10:42,159 --> 02:10:43,239
We don't have to get into all that, but the

2580
02:10:43,239 --> 02:10:45,479
point that I want to draw is that so fucking

2581
02:10:45,479 --> 02:10:48,600
disrespectful that there are people that like have to give

2582
02:10:48,680 --> 02:10:51,520
up their whole life for this medicine or other medicines.

2583
02:10:51,800 --> 02:10:53,600
And you think you could rub a fucking rock on

2584
02:10:53,640 --> 02:10:56,039
them and like that's it or it's like conveniently for you.

2585
02:10:56,079 --> 02:10:58,880
It doesn't work for like that type of muscular diystrophee

2586
02:10:58,960 --> 02:11:01,479
or something. But it's like man like, it's it's really

2587
02:11:01,479 --> 02:11:04,079
annoying to me. My best friend growing up has muscular DISTRICPTE.

2588
02:11:04,199 --> 02:11:05,920
So when I was reading about that and then you

2589
02:11:05,960 --> 02:11:08,840
bring up the the you know, every mother, I didn't

2590
02:11:08,840 --> 02:11:10,920
even think to ever make that connection, Like, yeah, that's

2591
02:11:10,960 --> 02:11:13,039
so true. Like the next time I talked to like

2592
02:11:13,039 --> 02:11:16,119
a Louie person on TikTok, I'm gonna fucking point that out,

2593
02:11:16,199 --> 02:11:19,159
Like why doesn't every mother or father, single father or

2594
02:11:19,199 --> 02:11:23,039
whatever parent have you know, those all in the cabinets

2595
02:11:23,039 --> 02:11:24,720
for their kids and they're sick, you know, And it's

2596
02:11:24,760 --> 02:11:27,319
just like, I don't know, it's so disrespectful to me.

2597
02:11:30,000 --> 02:11:33,600
Speaker 12: Citering real quick, you know, Yeah, bro, you're making more

2598
02:11:33,640 --> 02:11:36,039
pissed off at that that community than I already was.

2599
02:11:36,199 --> 02:11:37,000
Speaker 5: Kelly look at.

2600
02:11:36,880 --> 02:11:38,520
Speaker 3: Some hematite to stop the beating.

2601
02:11:38,680 --> 02:11:40,119
Speaker 2: Kelly's first aid kit weig.

2602
02:11:42,039 --> 02:11:44,079
Speaker 12: That's kind of how I got into this, like getting

2603
02:11:44,119 --> 02:11:46,279
like kicking back and wanting to do is because I

2604
02:11:46,359 --> 02:11:49,199
was on I was on Facebook like twenty years ago

2605
02:11:49,279 --> 02:11:51,680
and a woman asked what would be the best crystal

2606
02:11:51,720 --> 02:11:55,000
for my daughter's diabetes, and it just freaked me on.

2607
02:11:55,159 --> 02:11:57,159
I was like, no crystal, or take her to the

2608
02:11:57,239 --> 02:11:58,119
freaking doctor.

2609
02:11:58,359 --> 02:12:01,279
Speaker 5: You know. I sweat just hearing that.

2610
02:12:01,600 --> 02:12:04,439
Speaker 2: So there's there's a guy. I quote him a lot.

2611
02:12:04,479 --> 02:12:06,319
Speaker 1: There's a guy named Tim mentioned he as a poem,

2612
02:12:06,439 --> 02:12:09,199
a poem called Storm, And I think this passage is

2613
02:12:09,199 --> 02:12:10,960
applicable to what you're pointing out, Kelly.

2614
02:12:11,720 --> 02:12:12,880
Speaker 2: I'll just read a quick quote.

2615
02:12:12,920 --> 02:12:15,239
Speaker 1: Does he's talking to somebody that's a wooed to sort

2616
02:12:15,279 --> 02:12:18,199
of person. Does this idea that there might be knowledge

2617
02:12:18,279 --> 02:12:21,159
frighten you? Does the idea that one afternoon on wick

2618
02:12:21,199 --> 02:12:23,960
a fucking pedia might enlighten you frighten you? Does the

2619
02:12:24,000 --> 02:12:26,960
notion that there might not be a supernatural so blow

2620
02:12:27,000 --> 02:12:29,359
your hippie noodle, that you'd rather just sit in the

2621
02:12:29,399 --> 02:12:31,159
fog of your inability to google.

2622
02:12:31,399 --> 02:12:32,239
Speaker 5: Isn't this enough?

2623
02:12:32,640 --> 02:12:38,239
Speaker 1: Just this world, just this beautiful, complex, wonderfully unfathorable natural world.

2624
02:12:38,439 --> 02:12:39,359
Speaker 2: How does it so.

2625
02:12:39,479 --> 02:12:42,520
Speaker 1: Fail to hold our attention that we have to diminish

2626
02:12:42,600 --> 02:12:46,319
it with the invention of cheap, mad made myths and monsters.

2627
02:12:46,439 --> 02:12:48,439
Speaker 5: I love that. Who said that?

2628
02:12:48,479 --> 02:12:51,119
Speaker 2: Because I I tim mentioned storm?

2629
02:12:51,399 --> 02:12:55,760
Speaker 4: Okay, because I as say I that's that's like a

2630
02:12:55,800 --> 02:12:58,720
way better way of phrasing things that I've said online

2631
02:12:58,720 --> 02:12:59,640
that I wish I just would.

2632
02:12:59,479 --> 02:13:01,640
Speaker 5: Have phrased it like that. Every time we watch.

2633
02:13:01,520 --> 02:13:07,079
Speaker 2: It, it's he's He's incredible. I I He's I get amazing.

2634
02:13:07,680 --> 02:13:10,000
Speaker 4: It's like people are like, yeah, but like if physicalism

2635
02:13:10,119 --> 02:13:13,119
is true and it's just like brain physm Like why

2636
02:13:13,239 --> 02:13:15,199
if it was spooky.

2637
02:13:14,840 --> 02:13:16,039
Speaker 5: Magical ethereal stuff.

2638
02:13:16,079 --> 02:13:18,199
Speaker 4: I don't know what the substance does to make it

2639
02:13:18,279 --> 02:13:20,720
like cooler or less cool, Like is.

2640
02:13:20,680 --> 02:13:22,760
Speaker 5: It made out of legos or not legos?

2641
02:13:22,760 --> 02:13:26,760
Speaker 4: Like it's only cool logos just so fucking dumb.

2642
02:13:26,840 --> 02:13:30,840
Speaker 5: It's so dumb. Yeah, Yeah, I highly recommend it.

2643
02:13:30,840 --> 02:13:34,680
Speaker 1: It's that the it's a fictitious It's nine minutes of

2644
02:13:34,760 --> 02:13:36,439
him sort of doing this beat poem where he's re

2645
02:13:36,600 --> 02:13:39,720
enacting a fake conversation he had with a you know,

2646
02:13:39,840 --> 02:13:42,479
uh woistic type of person and he goes through all

2647
02:13:42,479 --> 02:13:46,680
my arguments but in this poetic, rhyming, funny, very funny way.

2648
02:13:46,720 --> 02:13:49,560
And he's done a lot of other shows that like

2649
02:13:49,640 --> 02:13:52,760
his other show, as other number that comes to mind

2650
02:13:52,800 --> 02:13:56,960
for Marco is thank You God, where he tells the

2651
02:13:57,000 --> 02:13:58,920
story about how this guy came up to him after

2652
02:13:58,920 --> 02:14:01,640
a show saying and told the story about how his

2653
02:14:01,920 --> 02:14:05,039
mother was diagnosed with this cataract or something like that,

2654
02:14:05,359 --> 02:14:08,079
and so his whole megachurch prayed for her and she

2655
02:14:08,199 --> 02:14:11,119
went back and it was cured. And so Tim's like

2656
02:14:11,159 --> 02:14:13,640
pretends like, oh, I asked for a miracle, and there

2657
02:14:13,640 --> 02:14:16,399
it is. And then he sings this very sarcastic song,

2658
02:14:17,079 --> 02:14:20,479
thank you God for fixing the cataract in Sam's mom.

2659
02:14:20,560 --> 02:14:21,479
Speaker 2: And then he goes on to.

2660
02:14:21,840 --> 02:14:24,359
Speaker 1: All the explanations of what it could have been, which

2661
02:14:24,359 --> 02:14:25,920
is where I got when I was talking to Marcus

2662
02:14:25,920 --> 02:14:29,920
about the misdiagnosis of the initial physician. It comes straight

2663
02:14:29,920 --> 02:14:31,840
from that song. It's like he just lists all the

2664
02:14:31,840 --> 02:14:34,399
possible things and obviously it's not this, and it's not this,

2665
02:14:34,520 --> 02:14:37,920
and it's not this, and it's not a lack of

2666
02:14:37,960 --> 02:14:42,960
physics visa vise physics visa vi Sam's mother's congregation and

2667
02:14:43,199 --> 02:14:46,640
all of this stuff. He's so good a summarizing this stuff,

2668
02:14:46,640 --> 02:14:47,840
so I strongly recommend it.

2669
02:14:47,880 --> 02:14:49,119
Speaker 2: You will you will love Storm.

2670
02:14:49,319 --> 02:14:53,960
Speaker 1: It's like it's a philosophical argument wrapped up in this beautiful, rhyming,

2671
02:14:54,359 --> 02:14:55,880
wonderfully talented package.

2672
02:14:56,119 --> 02:15:00,560
Speaker 4: Oh that sweet yeah ot to DM because I will right, yeah,

2673
02:15:00,880 --> 02:15:02,399
because I can say.

2674
02:15:02,279 --> 02:15:03,760
Speaker 5: It, then it will just be gone.

2675
02:15:03,760 --> 02:15:08,720
Speaker 1: And so, Kelly, what did you think about LEVI? I

2676
02:15:08,760 --> 02:15:10,800
would like to hear your th I am.

2677
02:15:11,000 --> 02:15:14,840
Speaker 4: Going to quietly bounce out to go eat up, but

2678
02:15:15,479 --> 02:15:16,840
I do want to thank you guys.

2679
02:15:16,600 --> 02:15:16,960
Speaker 5: And all that.

2680
02:15:17,199 --> 02:15:21,319
Speaker 4: I'm I'm going to get some well deserved food because

2681
02:15:21,319 --> 02:15:23,720
I have not eaten much days.

2682
02:15:23,840 --> 02:15:26,439
Speaker 5: And but I gotta say, like.

2683
02:15:26,439 --> 02:15:29,880
Speaker 4: I started the show off kind of focusing on portions

2684
02:15:29,920 --> 02:15:31,920
of some issues I've had with my own mental health

2685
02:15:31,920 --> 02:15:34,359
and depression and anxiety, and I want to say, like

2686
02:15:35,439 --> 02:15:38,960
thank you. Like Graham, I love doing a show with you. Kelly,

2687
02:15:38,960 --> 02:15:41,079
I always love hanging out with you in person, and

2688
02:15:41,239 --> 02:15:42,640
I wish we, you know, could do more shows and

2689
02:15:42,640 --> 02:15:46,479
stuff together. But like this, I always realized, like this

2690
02:15:46,520 --> 02:15:47,840
group of people, the A C A.

2691
02:15:49,079 --> 02:15:50,520
Speaker 5: You know, my buddies that are.

2692
02:15:52,119 --> 02:15:54,720
Speaker 4: One of my buddies is who is vice president for

2693
02:15:54,880 --> 02:15:56,279
I'm not sure if he still is so maybe I'm

2694
02:15:56,319 --> 02:16:00,000
speaking wrong here, but he's a vice president for Arizona

2695
02:16:00,199 --> 02:16:05,199
as UH Cycular Community and Mace Arizona or Phoenix, Arizona,

2696
02:16:05,760 --> 02:16:09,880
and it's just those Having those people like you around, man,

2697
02:16:09,960 --> 02:16:11,319
makes me feel so much better.

2698
02:16:11,399 --> 02:16:12,800
Speaker 5: So I just want to thank you.

2699
02:16:12,920 --> 02:16:15,960
Speaker 4: Sorry, I'm flubbing my words here, I don't but I

2700
02:16:16,039 --> 02:16:19,880
just really appreciate all of you guys so much because

2701
02:16:21,039 --> 02:16:23,439
you guys help me be better reasoners and hopefully I

2702
02:16:23,479 --> 02:16:26,119
can have the same trade off. And I just love

2703
02:16:26,199 --> 02:16:27,439
love being around you guys, really do.

2704
02:16:27,720 --> 02:16:31,359
Speaker 12: Thanks so much saying the community is about man, absolutely,

2705
02:16:31,439 --> 02:16:33,799
that's that's what it's all about. Oh yeah, and I

2706
02:16:33,840 --> 02:16:35,200
feel the same way about you, man.

2707
02:16:35,280 --> 02:16:38,040
Speaker 4: So yeah, we've had some fucking great times guys.

2708
02:16:38,120 --> 02:16:44,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll just say that this is one of the

2709
02:16:44,239 --> 02:16:46,479
reasons that people don't leave their religion is for fear

2710
02:16:46,479 --> 02:16:48,200
of losing that type of community. And this is a

2711
02:16:48,280 --> 02:16:51,680
very good example of you don't you find friends that

2712
02:16:51,719 --> 02:16:54,000
will take care of you because we really care about people.

2713
02:16:54,040 --> 02:16:56,719
We don't think that we can just pray your sadness away.

2714
02:16:56,799 --> 02:16:57,280
Speaker 5: Yeah.

2715
02:16:57,559 --> 02:17:02,600
Speaker 4: So humanism is in extremely Uh, it's become selfishly more

2716
02:17:02,639 --> 02:17:06,200
important because it's I find that the more humanist time around,

2717
02:17:06,639 --> 02:17:09,360
the happier I am, you know, So they just they

2718
02:17:09,360 --> 02:17:09,719
get it.

2719
02:17:09,760 --> 02:17:12,959
Speaker 5: So but yeah, I appreciate it, guys.

2720
02:17:12,959 --> 02:17:15,399
Speaker 4: Thank you for everyone in the you know, in the

2721
02:17:16,319 --> 02:17:18,399
kind of my private area of my left that's reached.

2722
02:17:18,239 --> 02:17:19,440
Speaker 5: Out and all that kind of stuff. I really do

2723
02:17:19,520 --> 02:17:22,360
appreciate it. So it's absolutely awesome, really cool.

2724
02:17:22,680 --> 02:17:23,680
Speaker 2: Okay, Well, why.

2725
02:17:23,520 --> 02:17:25,799
Speaker 1: Don't we instead, Kelly, we can chat after the show

2726
02:17:25,799 --> 02:17:27,280
about Levi if you're available.

2727
02:17:27,360 --> 02:17:28,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, sure, that's fine, that's fine.

2728
02:17:28,799 --> 02:17:30,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, why don't we call it at that. That's a

2729
02:17:30,440 --> 02:17:33,000
great note to end on, Mike, I really do appreciate it.

2730
02:17:33,040 --> 02:17:36,000
To everybody out there, take your meds, to drink your water,

2731
02:17:36,120 --> 02:17:37,559
have a great day.

2732
02:17:37,559 --> 02:17:44,000
Speaker 12: Bye bye, everyone, start a.

2733
02:17:46,559 --> 02:17:48,319
Speaker 5: Stop the.

2734
02:18:02,799 --> 02:18:26,680
Speaker 7: Ready Watch Talk ee than Live Sundays at one pm Central.

2735
02:18:26,760 --> 02:18:27,559
Speaker 3: Visit tiny dot

2736
02:18:27,639 --> 02:18:30,479
Speaker 2: C c slash y t t H and call into

2737
02:18:30,520 --> 02:18:33,200
the show at five one two nine nine one nine

2738
02:18:33,319 --> 02:18:35,760
two four two, or connect to the show online at

2739
02:18:35,760 --> 02:18:38,559
tiny dot c c slash call th H