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<v Speaker 1>We are now heading to Texas where our pastor is

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<v Speaker 1>confessing to moral failing, or as we say here at

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<v Speaker 1>the nonprofits, just another Wednesday. Eli has the story, Hey Eli,

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<v Speaker 1>what say you?

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<v Speaker 2>Heys Cynthia, I say In Frisco, Texas, Tony Kimerotis serves

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<v Speaker 2>as the pastor for Stonebrier Community Church for over eleven

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<v Speaker 2>thousand members, or at least he did until he confessed

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<v Speaker 2>a moral failure to the church leadership, which rendered him

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<v Speaker 2>unfit for the cloth in the church's opinion. It is

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<v Speaker 2>also the church's opinion that discussing the event at all

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<v Speaker 2>is like foosball the devil. In a letter to congregants,

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<v Speaker 2>the church leadership urged members not to allow the devil

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<v Speaker 2>making it worse through any one of us end quote, highlighting,

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<v Speaker 2>of course, that if you step one toe out of line,

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<v Speaker 2>you will be lightly tortured, but only for eternity. This

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<v Speaker 2>isn't the first megachurch pastor in that corner of Texas

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<v Speaker 2>to leave their positions since just the beginning of last June,

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<v Speaker 2>and I have to say it's nice that they're finally

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<v Speaker 2>giving other people a chance to take advantage of all

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<v Speaker 2>those church members. This story is from The New York

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<v Speaker 2>Post by Alex OLIVERA on July sixteenth, twenty twenty four.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, I think, Eli, the problem was is that

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<v Speaker 1>that you know, this particular pastor did not know how

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<v Speaker 1>to shut d dough to keep out d devil, shut

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<v Speaker 1>the dough in the middle of the night.

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<v Speaker 3>I think we're making different references, but I like yours too.

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<v Speaker 3>I practice, are you going to bring in the song

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<v Speaker 3>right here on the non profits?

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<v Speaker 2>You know?

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<v Speaker 1>And if I had room, I will put in a dance,

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<v Speaker 1>But unfortunately I don't. Well, we'll implore my son to

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<v Speaker 1>come back later and he can do it for you.

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<v Speaker 1>But guys, we actually have a discussion to do. So

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<v Speaker 1>let's let's bring it on back. And since you had

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<v Speaker 1>the last word, Eli, I'm going to come back to you.

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<v Speaker 1>I wanted to know what are some of the potential

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<v Speaker 1>reasons that a pastor might step down due to moral failures.

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<v Speaker 2>So here's like the logical chain of events that I

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<v Speaker 2>that I follow backwards basically, right, I think if he

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<v Speaker 2>just did something that he's like, oh, I shouldn't have

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<v Speaker 2>done that, there wouldn't be a conversation about this. Somebody,

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<v Speaker 2>a congregant probably caught him doing something that he shouldn't

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<v Speaker 2>been doing, or perhaps another like one of the church leaders.

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<v Speaker 2>But how I followed it was like a congregant catches

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<v Speaker 2>him doing something he's not supposed to be doing. It's like, well,

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<v Speaker 2>I better come clean, do like the leaders, because it's

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<v Speaker 2>going to come out and also be like, hey, this

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<v Speaker 2>person saw it, so everybody's going to find out. And

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<v Speaker 2>that's why they're like trying to dissuade people from like

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<v Speaker 2>talking about it. The other thought I had is the

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<v Speaker 2>only reason he would like maybe not the only reason,

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<v Speaker 2>but another reason that he would go straight to them,

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<v Speaker 2>and like they're also involved, like as the article mentions,

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<v Speaker 2>like there's three other megachurch pastors in the area in

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<v Speaker 2>like the Dallas Fort Worth area. Tony Evans Oak Oak

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<v Speaker 2>Cliff Bible Fellowship in the beginning of June. A week

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<v Speaker 2>after that, Mike Buster of Preston Wood Baptist Church he

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<v Speaker 2>denied any wrongdoing Tony Evans. He said he committed no

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<v Speaker 2>crime but failed to use righteous judgment. And then Robert

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<v Speaker 2>Morris of Gateway Church four days after Mike Buster stepped down,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm in allegations of long term sexual abuse of a

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<v Speaker 2>minor lasting a very long time, beginning when she was

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<v Speaker 2>twelve years old. So it reeks of cover up. And

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<v Speaker 2>there it's it's it seems like the churches thing, we

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<v Speaker 2>don't want any hear any rumors about what happened. It's

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<v Speaker 2>not rumors. Somebody knows, and the news is going to

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<v Speaker 2>spread and they're using eternal threats to terrify people into

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<v Speaker 2>protecting this guy's reputation.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, you know, I know that there you're particularly saying

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<v Speaker 1>that you know, there's some type of cover of some

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<v Speaker 1>type of conspiracy theory that's happening. But you know, I

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<v Speaker 1>think the Scott said in another perspective could be another burger.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I mean, if if if we want to be

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<v Speaker 3>fair here, you know, from one perspective, there's you know,

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<v Speaker 3>this is just nothing. There's a nothing burger, right, This

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<v Speaker 3>is nothing, nothing really interesting.

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<v Speaker 1>That I was trying to say, is nothing nothing right there?

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<v Speaker 3>The I mean, churches are private organizations and they can

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<v Speaker 3>hire and fire, you know, within legal limits of whoever

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<v Speaker 3>they want, right, and we don't know what happened, and

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<v Speaker 3>we don't know if it was illegal or harmful. We

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<v Speaker 3>know that religious moral codes can be rather obscure and

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<v Speaker 3>and uh separated and departed from what we would normally

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<v Speaker 3>consider to be a moral activity. And so leaving for

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<v Speaker 3>moral condition, you know, under for moral reasons could be

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<v Speaker 3>or a moral failing, sorry, could be something rather benign.

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<v Speaker 3>And so so I just want to make sure that

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<v Speaker 3>we uh don't jump to conclusions here. However, however, on

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<v Speaker 3>the other hand, there's a big butt here, there's a

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<v Speaker 3>big butt. But on the other hand, there is a

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<v Speaker 3>history here of this type of thing happening. There's a

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<v Speaker 3>history here of this type of thing being covered up.

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<v Speaker 3>It's very common that like, for example, why did they

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<v Speaker 3>expose so much as much as they did? You know,

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<v Speaker 3>why did they say as much as they did? You know,

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<v Speaker 3>very commonly we'll see things like they'll say that the

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<v Speaker 3>person left to spend time with their family, or their

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<v Speaker 3>path of God has led them elsewhere. There were lots

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<v Speaker 3>of more benign ways of describing this. Why why would

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<v Speaker 3>they give as much detail as they did. They didn't

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<v Speaker 3>give a ton of detail, but they did, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>imply that something negative or something untoward was happening here.

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<v Speaker 3>And so so we can wonder why they did that.

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<v Speaker 3>As long as we make sure that we're clear that

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<v Speaker 3>we're not leveling any accusations and things like that. But

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<v Speaker 3>we also can look at well, why pull out the

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<v Speaker 3>big guns, right? They said, and this is a quote

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<v Speaker 3>from the letter. It says, and please guard against the

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<v Speaker 3>devil any foothold for more damage to our church through

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<v Speaker 3>unnecessary speech and speculation. This is a sad day and

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<v Speaker 3>we don't want the devil making it worse through anyone

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<v Speaker 3>of use in these days ahead. And so, like I said,

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<v Speaker 3>that's the big guns. Right. If they're saying, if you

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<v Speaker 3>do something like this, or if you talk about this,

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<v Speaker 3>or if you spread these words, you're doing the devil's work.

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<v Speaker 3>That's a heavy hit. That's a heavy hit to a

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<v Speaker 3>religious congregation. And so you know why why it seems

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<v Speaker 3>like a pretty strong reaction if it was, if it

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<v Speaker 3>was a benign action. They're equating what they're talking. They're

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<v Speaker 3>equating talking about the issue with actions of the devil.

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<v Speaker 3>And that's as serious as you as you can get.

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<v Speaker 3>If you're one of us, you have to behave this way.

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<v Speaker 3>If you're not one of us, you'll behave differently. And

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<v Speaker 3>so you know, we need to guard against jumping to conclusions.

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<v Speaker 3>I think it's fair for us to indulge in a

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<v Speaker 3>little bit of conjecture here based off of building off

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<v Speaker 3>of this history of much worse things happening, as long

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<v Speaker 3>as you know, as long as we kind of take

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<v Speaker 3>those two things in equal measure, well.

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<v Speaker 1>To your point, the moral failing if we're going to conjecture,

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<v Speaker 1>could be that the pastor all of a sudden aligns

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<v Speaker 1>with left wist wing values and he's woke.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, definitely, you know.

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<v Speaker 1>That that could definitely be a thing. Yes, yes, and

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<v Speaker 1>he could possibly support DEI hires perish the thought.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, we want no never, never.

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<v Speaker 1>In a million years. But Jonathan, I'm coming to you

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<v Speaker 1>because you actually happened to see a pattern going on

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<v Speaker 1>with some pastors in Texas. Do you not?

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah? I do. I'm just the megachurches apparently, and I

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<v Speaker 4>don't and just my bias, I don't have a lot

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<v Speaker 4>of respect for megachurches. To me, there's really just my

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<v Speaker 4>making machines for a bunch of con men. But you know,

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<v Speaker 4>they had four resignations in a thirty two day period

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<v Speaker 4>in Texas, nothing but a vague reference to misconduct in one,

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<v Speaker 4>one for pedophilia. Yep. These guys speak for their God,

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<v Speaker 4>all right. I wish these were isolated incidence, but it's

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<v Speaker 4>not the only only Baptist or Protestant churches. It's everybody

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<v Speaker 4>has these incidences, and they almost always involve children. Now

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<v Speaker 4>this again, as Scott said, no jumping to conclusions here.

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<v Speaker 4>He could have just simply, I don't know, got caught

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<v Speaker 4>picking his nose and that was a moral failing, you know,

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<v Speaker 4>But that's not what I think.

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<v Speaker 3>Maybe he has a crushed testicle and he's no longer

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<v Speaker 3>allowed near the altar. Maybe that's it.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, it could be all sorts of ridiculous moral failings

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<v Speaker 4>that some of these very evangelical devout by. Maybe he

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<v Speaker 4>failed to inform the congregation that he had a disobedient

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<v Speaker 4>child and didn't stone them, you know, could be all

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<v Speaker 4>sorts of things. But the whole idea that this many

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<v Speaker 4>there might and I'm not being thinking there's a conspiracy.

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<v Speaker 4>I think it's just endemic in the culture of these

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<v Speaker 4>churches that people have to hide who they are. And

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<v Speaker 4>having been somebody who did that for a great portion

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<v Speaker 4>of my life, I know how much pressure that develops.

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<v Speaker 4>Eventually it breaks out. They have that non kosher ice cream,

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<v Speaker 4>you know, they have that forbidden piece of cake, you know,

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<v Speaker 4>or they do something more severe that in this particular

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<v Speaker 4>environment is going to mean you're gone, buddy. You know,

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<v Speaker 4>we can't have that example for our masses, and they're

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<v Speaker 4>all huge masses. One of those congregations is over one

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<v Speaker 4>hundred thousand people. Imagine that that's bigger than most cities,

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<v Speaker 4>you know, small cities.

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<v Speaker 2>You know.

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<v Speaker 4>It's like, that's a lot bigger than the town I'm

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<v Speaker 4>in and the surrounding town's put together. So when you

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<v Speaker 4>think about this, this seems to be happening to a

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<v Speaker 4>certain section, a certain subset of the pastors, and they

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<v Speaker 4>all have megachurches or is that a bias that was

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<v Speaker 4>in the reporting? The smaller churches we probably don't care about.

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<v Speaker 4>And I'm beginning to think that that was probably a

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<v Speaker 4>bias in how the news cycle goes. In other words,

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<v Speaker 4>a megachurch with all these people in it, something happens,

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<v Speaker 4>and it's big news for the town because almost everybody's

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<v Speaker 4>a member of that. But for the smaller churches, the

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<v Speaker 4>chapel on the side maybe had their guy do something

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<v Speaker 4>really nasty and nobody hears about it because it's just

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<v Speaker 4>not a big deal. It's on the police blodder for

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<v Speaker 4>that week and fades out of the memory. So I

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<v Speaker 4>just think that that's what we have to be looking

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<v Speaker 4>at as well. But what is going on here? I

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<v Speaker 4>can't say, but there's something going on here. They think

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<v Speaker 4>they're invulnerable and they're doing stuff they should and they're

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<v Speaker 4>getting caught.

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<v Speaker 1>Well to well to your point, oh dear, Indeed, there

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<v Speaker 1>is this particular moral code that Christians are supposedly supposed

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<v Speaker 1>to live by. And I know that like all of

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<v Speaker 1>us here are secular, all of us here are atheists

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<v Speaker 1>and have been confronted in some ways or another about well,

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<v Speaker 1>where do you get your morals from? And you know,

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<v Speaker 1>we have different answers for that. However, when you are

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<v Speaker 1>a person that believes in God and believes that God

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<v Speaker 1>happens to be the way, the truth, the life, and

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<v Speaker 1>you're supposed to follow all of the words that happens

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<v Speaker 1>to be in his book, a lot of times those

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<v Speaker 1>words can be antithetical to how one is naturally, So

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of times that happens to be the case,

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<v Speaker 1>and you find yourself and I know, like I believe

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<v Speaker 1>that all of us want at one time I were

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<v Speaker 1>some form a Christian that we would start to fight

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<v Speaker 1>our cognitive dissonance because naturally we are one way, but

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<v Speaker 1>the book says that we need to be in another way.

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<v Speaker 1>And I believe because we've covered stories like this, some

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<v Speaker 1>pastor did some shitty thing and now everybody's up in arms.

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<v Speaker 1>And to your point, Jonathan, the mega pastor is just

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<v Speaker 1>more visible, so they get talked about more when something

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<v Speaker 1>happens instead of like, you know, your Tom Brown church

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<v Speaker 1>on the corner in the neighborhood where only you know

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<v Speaker 1>a few blocks may be familiar with whoever the Angel

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<v Speaker 1>of the house is there. Right, But it's not that

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<v Speaker 1>a mega church would make this moral failing better or worse.

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<v Speaker 1>It just means that that's where that moral flailing happen.

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<v Speaker 1>But I want to know, Eli, I'm coming to you,

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<v Speaker 1>what do you think a role would be of watchdog

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<v Speaker 1>groups like watchkeep dot org And how would it play

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<v Speaker 1>in holding church leadership accountable for their actions.

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<v Speaker 2>So this whole resonate like this story, like Tony Cameron's resignation,

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<v Speaker 2>basically reminded me of the practice we see in the

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<v Speaker 2>Catholic Church all the time to just like relocate somebody

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<v Speaker 2>who did something, or like in plenty of other churches,

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<v Speaker 2>is like, okay, well, you know, we'll kind of remove

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<v Speaker 2>you from like the spotlight until like the person is,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, twelve years older than they are now or something,

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<v Speaker 2>and they forget about it, which isn't going to happen,

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<v Speaker 2>but that's what they think. And then they put them

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<v Speaker 2>right back in front of you. And having these watchtones

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<v Speaker 2>groups that would like watchdog dot org has the is

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<v Speaker 2>intended to have the list of all the background checks

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<v Speaker 2>of all the clergy that have complied a background check,

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<v Speaker 2>I mean something like that, to say like, yeah, this

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<v Speaker 2>person has been convicted of these things. Then you can

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<v Speaker 2>decigne if you want your family to be around and

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<v Speaker 2>learning from those people and the families that may be

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<v Speaker 2>affected by Let's say something untowards did take place in

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<v Speaker 2>Tony Camroda's place, which I appreciate the three of you

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<v Speaker 2>making it clear, like you know, it's important not to

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<v Speaker 2>speculate or or make assumptions or conject about crimes. But

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<v Speaker 2>let's say something on towards did take place and it

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<v Speaker 2>affects some of the people in the congregation. Having had

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<v Speaker 2>that knowledge beforehand, could have you know, protected this family

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<v Speaker 2>or you know, whoever may have been affected from that

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<v Speaker 2>trauma or that experience. Had they had, had they been

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<v Speaker 2>armed beforehand with the knowledge to make a more informed decision.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I think that when we think about keeping church

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<v Speaker 1>leadership accountable, I think that far too often, especially like

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<v Speaker 1>in megachurches, it's very dictatorial. I love saying that word

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<v Speaker 1>every nonprofits and I'm just getting better at every time

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<v Speaker 1>that I say it, even though I say it slow

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<v Speaker 1>yay me. Regardless, there's this hierarchy that's there and whatever

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<v Speaker 1>say ye the pastor, that's what goes and you can't

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<v Speaker 1>question it because the pastor almost serves like a proxy

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<v Speaker 1>to God, just like the pope does in the Catholic Ture.

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<v Speaker 1>I know it was very much so like that when

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<v Speaker 1>I was centered, and it makes it very difficult for

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<v Speaker 1>the people who has the butt in a pew to

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<v Speaker 1>be that watchdog to say like, hey, pastor, you shouldn't

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<v Speaker 1>do that. Hey pastor, you need to be more vigilant

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<v Speaker 1>on how your actions occur, you know. But like they say, well,

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<v Speaker 1>they will tell you that old adage that's in the Bible,

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<v Speaker 1>touch not my anointed, didn't do my profits no harm.

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<v Speaker 1>That's just a good way just to tell you to

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<v Speaker 1>shut the fuck up. And that should not be the case.

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<v Speaker 1>That that should not be the case. But you know,

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<v Speaker 1>it's kotint of gonna come to you because I want

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<v Speaker 1>to know from you. How do you think I touched

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<v Speaker 1>on a little bit more, but you know, expand on

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<v Speaker 1>a little bit. How do you think religious teachings about sin, forgiveness,

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<v Speaker 1>and redemption come into play in situations involving pastoral moral fail.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, for one thing, it's hard for us to really

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<v Speaker 3>tell because there's such a lack of transparency. I mean,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, we we're not being shared the proper information,

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<v Speaker 3>the complete information. And maybe we deserve to be shared,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, maybe we deserve to know that, maybe we don't.

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<v Speaker 3>But I think that you know, that lack of transparency

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<v Speaker 3>and the lack of desire for transparency. You were mentioning

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<v Speaker 3>some quotes from from the Bible there that basically instruct

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<v Speaker 3>the congregation to just go along with whatever the leadership

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<v Speaker 3>says to do. And so, uh, you know, from their perspective,

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<v Speaker 3>they're fulfilling their end of the bargain. They're they're they're

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<v Speaker 3>doing what they're supposed to do. They're they're doing, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>their side of the deal. They're submitting to the to

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<v Speaker 3>the church, to their God, and and they consider that

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<v Speaker 3>to be a good thing. And I think whether it's

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<v Speaker 3>being intentionally taken advantage of or whether it's inadvertently being

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<v Speaker 3>taken advantage of, I think it is being taken advantage of.

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<v Speaker 3>I mean, we we we talk about how we have

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<v Speaker 3>so many of these stories happening, and very often we

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<v Speaker 3>do that some of the details do come out, whether

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<v Speaker 3>that be improper sexual advancements, whether that be some kind

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<v Speaker 3>of financial theft or you know, or any any of

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<v Speaker 3>a variety of ways that church leadership could be taking

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<v Speaker 3>advantage of the situation. And so I think that it's

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<v Speaker 3>it's something that's part of the of the concept of

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<v Speaker 3>religion itself, that idea of don't question, just do and

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<v Speaker 3>and by by by bowing and in obedience to the

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<v Speaker 3>church leadership, they see that as a way of honoring

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<v Speaker 3>their God. And so that's that's that kind of feeds

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<v Speaker 3>into that. Now, does that is that going to attract predators? Yes,

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<v Speaker 3>it's going to Is that going to encourage people who

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<v Speaker 3>maybe wouldn't be a predator otherwise to kind of lean

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<v Speaker 3>in that direction? Possibly? Possibly? And so it's just a

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<v Speaker 3>risky situation. It's it's an unfounded trust put on people

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<v Speaker 3>that are human beings and that are you know, we're atheists.

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<v Speaker 3>We don't think that they're envoys of God or being

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<v Speaker 3>you know, the avatar or representative of God, or however

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<v Speaker 3>you want to describe it. However you want to put

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<v Speaker 3>a label on that. We you know, they're just people,

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<v Speaker 3>and so we should expect them to have uh, normal

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<v Speaker 3>everyday shortcomings. And if the it's it's it's the religion

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<v Speaker 3>that clouds that. It's the religion. It's the act of

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<v Speaker 3>having something that's sacred like that, and that cannot be

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<v Speaker 3>questioned and that cannot be addressed. It's just it's almost inevitable.

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<v Speaker 3>You know, it's hard to imagine that it wouldn't happen.

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<v Speaker 1>I hear that. And I'm coming to you for the

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<v Speaker 1>last word. Since you went ahead and brought this story

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<v Speaker 1>to our attention, if you were able to sit in

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<v Speaker 1>front of the governing body of Tony Cameroda's church and

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<v Speaker 1>was able to give them some advice on how they

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<v Speaker 1>can develop better policies and procedures to actually address moral

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<v Speaker 1>failings of their leaders, what would you tell them?

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, I have It would depend I guess on

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<v Speaker 2>sort of the nature of what types of moral failings

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<v Speaker 2>they are, their experience, their moral failures they're experiencing. If

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<v Speaker 2>it's I mean, is this a church code moral failing, well,

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<v Speaker 2>then I mean that's just what you think is moral.

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<v Speaker 4>There's not.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, you can change that, but you probably won't.

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<v Speaker 2>We can talk about it, but I probably won't change

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<v Speaker 2>your mind. I think in the instances where maybe not

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<v Speaker 2>this particular instance, but where crimes have taken place or

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<v Speaker 2>have alleged to be taken place, to actually report those

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<v Speaker 2>to the appropriate authorities and get the victims of those crimes,

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<v Speaker 2>if there is one present in the congregation, support and

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<v Speaker 2>actually like address it, rather than the vague descriptions of

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<v Speaker 2>you know, somebody did something bad, but you better not

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<v Speaker 2>talk about it and just kind of moving on.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, you know. The resignation of Pastor Tony Kamarota and

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<v Speaker 1>the subsequent handling of the situation by the So and

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<v Speaker 1>Buyer Community Church serves as a reminder of how the

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<v Speaker 1>importance of transparency and accountability in leadership, and by fostering

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<v Speaker 1>environment of open dialogue and critical inquiry, communities can better

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<v Speaker 1>address ethical breaches, support those who are in fact who

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<v Speaker 1>are affected and work towards a more just and equitable society.

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<v Speaker 1>And on a side note, moral failings is a so

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<v Speaker 1>so subjective, such a subjective term, And if we're going

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<v Speaker 1>to be objective about what a failing is, first, let's

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<v Speaker 1>start by allowing people to be who they are.