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Speaker 2: What up, everybody?

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Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of Let's Ask Paul, the podcast

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where you get to ask me Paul Abernathy anything you

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want about the National Electrical Code or all things electrically related. Hell,

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you can ask me about bidding, estimating, hr firing, hiring,

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whatever you want. If it's in the electrical industry and

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you have a question, feel free to go over to

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Paul Abernathy dot com and submit your question. If it's selected,

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it will be used in an upcoming podcast much like today.

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But I will answer via email, And if I don't

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answer you via email within a couple of weeks, make

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sure you reach back out to me because I do

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get a lot of these, so I do want to

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make sure I answer all your questions. But before we

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get started today, I want to tell you that today's

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That's the only limitation. Okay, all right, so check it

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out trade hall dot net. All right, So today's episode,

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we're going to tackle a question. And this question can

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be quite controversial.

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Speaker 2: For some people, okay.

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Speaker 1: So it's one of those things where you have to

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take this question and understand the concept of where we're

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coming from when it's being presented. And again, everybody's going

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to have varying opinions on this, okay, So I'm just

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telling you that right up front, right up front. I

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just want to clear the air up front, right So now,

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the remember when you do send me these questions over

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at Paul Abernathy dot com, make sure that you let

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me know the code cycle you're in. And that's the

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more germane to the response, because I want to keep

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it with the code cycle that you're working on and

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you know, and that way I can make sure that

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I'm answering it, you know, to to your expectation. But again,

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remember these are my opinions. You may agree to disagree.

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That's perfectly okay as well. Never said I was no

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tre Damis or even Tesla Elon Musk. I never said

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I was Nikola Tesla, you know, all that kind of

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good stuff. I'm just me electrician like you who have

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been doing this for over forty years, and I'm trying

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to give my best to help you understand the National

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Electrical Code and how things may apply. Okay, so this

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question was submitted, and I'm going to read you the question,

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and then I'll go back and I will pick through

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the question and try to answer some of these things

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that are involved in it.

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Speaker 2: So I just want to make sure that I do

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that on the front end. So let me read the

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question first.

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Speaker 1: It says, first point of disconnect is the main service panel. Traditionally,

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for PVC conduits carrying the service conductors from the panel

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to the meter pedestal, we ask for a green wire

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for continuity between the two. The argument recently made is

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that since the ground and the neutral or bonded at

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the panel, that running a separate ground is now splitting

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the neutral and creating an imbalance. Therefore, there should not

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be the green wire. Is this correct? And how is

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this different than using rigid pipe to bond it. Luckily,

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we recently switched to the twenty twenties, so all pedestals

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will have the first point of disconnect, I guess, and

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we'll eliminate this issue. Thanks for all your help. Okay,

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thanks for the question, and we'll basically let's dissect each

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this down each one of these.

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Speaker 2: Okay.

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Speaker 1: The first statement is that the main service panel is

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always the first point of disconnect, not always the case,

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not always the case, because you could have a situation

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where if you have one and two family dwelling, then

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you've got an issue where you may have what's.

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Speaker 2: Called an emergency disconnect out there.

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Speaker 1: So that may be your first point of actual disconnect,

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and it may or may not Okay, may or may

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not be a service And we find that under two

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thirty dot eighty five that's emergency disconnect one and two

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family dwellings, So that's a disconnecting means, but it might

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not be the first that might be the first point,

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and it may or may not be service equipment. You

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got to go read two thirty dot eighty two and

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see that there's some options for this. When it comes

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to the disconnect. You can have a service disconnect. It

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could be a meter disconnect, or you could be some

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other listed disconnect switch there. Uh, that doesn't change the

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fact that there's still service conductors. It's just a disconnect

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that type of thing. Now, if it is service conductors

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and you have this disconnect, then everything on the load

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side of that will be feeder applications. But again, go

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look at two thirty dot eighty five now understanding emergency

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disconnect applications. Okay, So going with the premise that that's

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that we're talking about a service panel and he's talking

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about between the meter and the service equipment, which again

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we'll assume that it's outside because now you're required to

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have an emergency disconnect, and so we'll assume that that

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service disconnect is also the emergency disconnect. If they are

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in the twenty twenty code, then that would be required.

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Speaker 2: If they're in the.

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Speaker 1: Twenty seventeen code, then the disconnect outside or nearest point

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of entry, and there is no requirement for emergency disconnecting

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the twenty seventeen NEC. So we'll assume that they're talking

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about the twenty seventeen edition which did not have that

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emergency disconnect requirement.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Assuming all.

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Speaker 1: That a lot of a lot of assumptions there that

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I'm making on this episode.

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Speaker 2: Okay, all right.

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Speaker 1: Now, the other argument he's saying is their jurisdiction requires

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them to run a green conductor for continuity between or

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say a bonding jumper between the meter enclosure and the

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service enclosure.

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Speaker 2: Okay, and so.

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Speaker 1: That's what we're keeping the context to their question, assuming

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again twenty seventeen no emergency disconnect. So they get them

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to do this, and the question is being brought up,

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is that creating something like objectionable currents? Is that creating

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an imbalance in the neutral conductor? And he answered to

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that is one, yes, it is creating an imbalance because

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current takes all available paths. It's not just the path

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of least resistance. It takes all available paths. And we're

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designing a system so that the current will travel back

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on the neutral conductor. Okay, it's going to always carry

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some amount of current, right, Not so for the metal parts,

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even though they're connected together at each en You know,

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you have the meter and then you have the neutral

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that's connected in the meter typically, and then you have

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the service panel and the neutral is connected based on

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two fifty twenty four, it's connected in the service with

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the main bonding jumper to the enclosure. Okay, so they're connected.

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The neutral is connected at both ends. So but the

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concept is you only want the return current back to

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the source to be traveling on that neutral grounded conductor.

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Speaker 2: Okay, that's what you want.

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Speaker 1: And so in their situation, they are forcing people to

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put a green wire in there and obviously connecting it

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to the neutral at each end, which does create parallel paths,

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which does mean that the you're going to have return

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current imbalance. Now, many people may look at that and say, well,

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if I'm have less current on the neutral, what's the problem. Well,

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that's because that whire you're installing for the green wire

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is a bonding component, it's part. It really wasn't designed

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to carry the current, although now you're forcing it to

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do that. Now it may be sized smaller than the

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neutral that you have already sized. If that's the case,

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if you lose your neutral, then your return current's going

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to be back on that green conductor that may not

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be sized properly.

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Speaker 2: So that creates a problem.

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Speaker 1: Now, if you have that green wire connected at each

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end to the neutral conductor and y'all are demanding that

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to take place, then what's happening is that you also

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are creating objectionable currents because you do have circulating currents

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that are traveling on the metal parts back to the source,

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and not just through the grounded neutral conductor, but also

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through obviously this green wire, and you have basically forced

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them to construct a parallel path that can conceivably create

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objectionable currents, and it also is forcing an unnatural balance

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on the return current because it's going to take all

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available paths to proportional to the impedance of the path

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with the lowest impedance. Okay, Now, obviously the bigger neutral,

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probably bigger than the green wire, is probably going to

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have a bigger conductor because you're sizing the neutral based

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on not smaller than two fifty one zero two c

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one plus you're taking into account the calculated load that'd

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be on that neutral, so maybe it is larger, and

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so the larger it is, it's going to carry more current. Right, logically,

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it's going to have lower resistance than the smaller green

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wire until you lose that neutral, and now you've got

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it traveling on the green wire, and that can create

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a problem. Now, as far as the National Electrical Code

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is concerned. We have to construct circuits in a way

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that do not create objectstionable current. And then the code

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in two fifty six tells us, you know, you got

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to do something to mitigate this where possible. And so

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the first thing that I would say to mitigate this

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would be to remove that green wire.

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Speaker 2: And remember that the National.

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Speaker 1: Electrical Code permits the use of the neutral conductor on

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the supply side to bond metal parts bond that meter enclosure.

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And you're doing it in the panel by using the

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main bonding jumper and connected the ground conductor to the enclosure.

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So you're doing it at the panel, and you're doing

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it at the meter. For the most part, in most

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one and two family dwelling meters, the neutral conductor is

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connected to the enclosure. You know, you can easily test

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that out when you're doing an installation. Just use a

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continuity tester and touch the neutral terminal and then go

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over and touch the enclosure. Usually use one of the

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threaded entries so you get rid of all of the

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paint issue and you'll get you'll get a reading and

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it should be connuity that tells you that the neutral

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is inherently connected to the enclosure. If you're going to

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be running that green way, if I are between the

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two you, and if you're a jurisdiction, it's forcing that.

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Then you're forcing a violation of two fifty dot six.

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You're forcing a potential issue of neutral return current traveling

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potentially on the green conductor, especially if there's a loose

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connection in the ungrounded I mean, excuse me, a loose

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connection in the grounded neutral conductor. So you're introducing or

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you're you're making them do things that are that potentially

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could cause issues. Now, the other thing that was asking

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the question this says, well, wait a minute, wouldn't this

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be the same if I had a meter and I

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went back to back with a rigid metal conduit and

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I'm connecting it to a panel enclosure. The short answer

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is yes, you are still creating an issue that could

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create objectionable current. Why because if the neutral grounded conductor

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is connected to the enclosure at the meter, and you

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know you're doing it per two fifty dot twenty four

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at this service equipment, then you are inherently creating this

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same concept. Now they're kind of asking, well, why do

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they allow it for the rigid But we shouldn't allow

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it with the green wire. Well, I think the issue

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is that we known for eons that it's a problem

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with using the rigid metal intermediate metal e MT between

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the meter and the panel and then running a neutral

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through that we and the way we bond at each end.

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What happens is we're creating this this potential for an imbalance.

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We're creating this potential for parallel paths. We're doing all

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this and the code is kind of tells you not

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to create objectionable currents, but it doesn't define what objectionable

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current is. But we know that it's basically objectionable current

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is current traveling on an unintended path. Right, it is

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not designed to be traveling on the metal parts. But

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when you connect it to the neutral grounded conductor in

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the service, and you do it also at the meter,

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you are creating this potential. Now, this has been done forever.

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We tried to talk about this in code panel five.

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We tried to come up with a.

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Speaker 2: A objectionable current definition.

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Speaker 1: We tried to do this, and people say, well, why

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don't you just flat out just require non metallic type

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of raceways between it and you solve that issue Okay,

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well we could, but you got to remember the NEC

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is not an instruction manual.

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Speaker 2: It's just guiding you. And there's many options.

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Speaker 1: For example, they do make transition fittings, whereas if I'm

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using RIGID, I can transition between the rigid to PVC,

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and I already know that the one end of the

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rigid's bonded because it's connected to the metal box on

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the panel side. But maybe it has a transition and

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it changes over to PVC as a fitting or as

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a coupling, and you get a transition fitting and change

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is over, and so you break that connection. Well, then

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you've broken that parallel path. You still bonded the metal

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parts that enclosed service conductors. Okay, we're following all of

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those rules and two fifty ninety two, but you're breaking

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that bond and so you're you're separating it out. Also,

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you could have a meter that gives you the ability

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to not have the grounded nutril conductor connect to the

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to the actual enclosure, and then you wouldn't have a

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parallel path if you did run a green wire through

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there and connect it to the enclosure. Okay, because that

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neutral is isolated in the meter. That's options, but most

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of the time traditional meters, that's not going to be

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the case. The grounded nutral conductor is bonded to the

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enclosure because allows the neutral to be used to bond

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metal parts on the supply side of a service disconnect.

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So you know, there's no fancy dancy way around it.

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Do we see rigid used all the time on the

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supply side? Is it potentially a violation of two fifty

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out six?

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Speaker 2: Sure? Do we see big problems with it? Not really there.

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Speaker 1: Really, it's the touch potential thing that's that's helpful with

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the allowance of two fifty one forty two and to

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use the ground a conductor at that application. But we're

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talking about different things when we're talking about return paths

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or creating parallel paths that uh that cause current to

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travel on things that it wasn't intended for it to be.

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There's a lot more impedance on a metal enclosure and

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things like that than it would be on a direct

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conductor connecting from point A to point B. So current

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is going to take the path of all all possible paths,

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but proportionately it's going to take the path of least impedance. Proportionally,

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so the large majority of the amount of return current

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is going to travel on its intended path, and so

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we try to construct things that way. Just because you

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see people using rigid on the supply side and have

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a neutral inside of that raceway and the raceway and

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the neutral bonded at each end, yes, they're technically creating

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a violation, but it's.

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Speaker 2: Become an accepted practice now.

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Speaker 1: When you force somebody to put a wire in a

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raceway to create that problem, that's different because the ahjs

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or municipalities should not be forcing these things on people.

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Because the only way that we can remove the two

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fifty six issue in this case is to remove that

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green wire, but then we have to ensure that are

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if we do that and you're using PVC, for example,

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between the two, then we have to make sure that

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the meter enclosure is connected to the ground of neutral,

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and that may be again already inherent in the meter.

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But then obviously we're doing it on our service equipment.

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We're making sure we put that main bonding jumper in

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there and everything gets bonded together there that type of thing.

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So I don't know if that answers your question that

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you presented but again it kind of gives you things

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to think about. Just because you see somebody using rigid,

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does that make that right? It's just you know it,

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just people do it. But for a jurisdiction to force

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somebody to put a green wire in there and create

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parallel paths, to me, is a little more intrusive than

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them constructing a rigid or intermediate or an EMT to

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protect the conductors on the supply side and inadvertently creating

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a potential of a two fifty six issue than it

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is to force somebody to put a wire in there

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and intentionally create this issue that type of scenario, right,

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And we've also heard stories that raceways, for example, when

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we're doing like equipment grounding conductors. There were study, the

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Gemini study that was done and I'm I'm a conductor guy,

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don't get me wrong, but you notice that when it

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comes to raceways, we don't tell you how to size

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a raceway to clear an overcurrent device. If you're thinking

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about an equipment ground we tell you how to size

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a conductor. We send you to two fifty one twenty two,

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and you size it based on the overcurrent device. We

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give you that, but we don't give you instructions for

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the raceway. In other words, we don't tell you that

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a trade size half or three quarter or one or

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one in a quarter or one and a half is

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going to carry a certain amount of current that's going

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to clear it over current device. We just assume that

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it's going to and so we don't really get into

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sizing there. So that's why some engineers that are in

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a pinch, you know, they didn't size it right, the

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raceway right, and they got conductor fill issues. Well, they

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can remove the wire type equipment ground that they insisted

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on installing and use the metal raceway. If it qualifies

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in two fifty one eighteen, then they can use it,

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and that way they can you know, get away with

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the raceway fill issue they may have introduced. So there's

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many ways to get around certain things, all compliant. The

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only downside to using a raceway as an equipment ground

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for example, and I know I'm.

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Speaker 2: Deviating from our original topic, but the.

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Speaker 1: Only thing to ensure is that all the connections are

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made uptight, that you don't have any weakness in this

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raceway system, because obviously the raceway system is only as

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good as every termination, every coupling, every connector, and so

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again you have to do a little more due diligence

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to make sure that works, whereas a wire is pretty

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straightforward point A, point B, terminate and done. That's why

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more engineers just require an equipment ground or the wire

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type in a raceway than to use the raceway. I

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get it, but again as a little off topic, because

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we're talking about on the supply side where you're not

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going to have an equipment ground because there's no overcurrent

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production device of Barry. Get what I'm saying. All right, Anyway,

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hopefully I answered your question. I know you probably wanted

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me to give you definitive but again that's just how

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the code works, and that's how it is, and there

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are certain practices that we do. And again there was

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a reason the Code Panel five could not come up

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with objectionable current definition because we know that in certain

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cases we're imposing something that would be contradictory to what

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we're trying to achieve. And so basically the concept of

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objectionable current is we don't want current travel on unintended paths.

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But we understand that there are certain applications in any

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c that may introduce that. So we don't want to

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put something in writing that we can't truly be able

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to hang our hat on it as a definition, so

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we leave it pretty open. And so that's how you

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get my interpretation, that's how you get other people's interpretation

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of this that type of thing. But that's the best

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I got for you, all right, all right, hopefully you

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got something out of that and something to take away

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from you. Again, make sure if you have any questions

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that you want to submit to us, just go to

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Paul Labernathy dot com. We love to have you and

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we'll catch you on an upcoming episode of Let's Ask Paul.

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Till next time, Stay safe, God bless basket co don'hing