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Speaker 3: He was the first and he's still the best. For
Speaker 3: thirty years, Tom Gresham has been your trusted source on
Speaker 3: all things ballistic, new guns, Second Amendment, Personal protection, deep
Speaker 3: part of it. Paul, Tom talk gun. Now, here's Tom.
Speaker 4: Oh boy, we're gonna have some fun two days. Addle up,
Speaker 4: buckle up. I think it's gonna be good. We're gonna
Speaker 4: talk about guns and AMMO and scopes and reloading and mistakes.
Speaker 4: May Oh yeah, I made a mistake. I did one
Speaker 4: of those wrong AMMO right gun things. Nobody got hurt.
Speaker 4: But I'll tell you about that. It's one of those hmm.
Speaker 4: Didn't know about that one, and I learned something I
Speaker 4: never knew. We'll have a little bit about that as
Speaker 4: to go along sometime today. We'll also be talking with
Speaker 4: an expert about self defense with guns. Once again, why
Speaker 4: we worry about the wrong thing? Maybe another way to
Speaker 4: say is what should we be focusing on? And as
Speaker 4: much as cool guns and neat accessories are a lot
Speaker 4: of fun, that may not be what we need to
Speaker 4: be thinking about. Where we're talking about a life saving device,
Speaker 4: we'll have more about that as we go along. Well, also,
Speaker 4: we got a lot of things to talk about. And
Speaker 4: of course you're we love to get you to call in,
Speaker 4: tell us what have you been shooting? Tell me about
Speaker 4: an experience you had at the range or maybe the
Speaker 4: gun store, whatever, it doesn't matter, you know. Look, here's
Speaker 4: the deal. All we're doing is just swapping stories. It's
Speaker 4: just like sitting around the digital campfire and we're having
Speaker 4: some fun telling stories. And you'll tell a few, I'll
Speaker 4: tell a few, and it's up to everybody else to
Speaker 4: figure out which ones are true and which ones are not.
Speaker 4: There you go, It is vitally important, and look, we're
Speaker 4: going to talk about hardwarees that go along, but it
Speaker 4: is vitally important for us to stay up with what's
Speaker 4: going on in the battle to preserve and basically restore
Speaker 4: the Second Amendment. We have lost a lot of the
Speaker 4: real world aspects of Second Amendment. We're getting some of
Speaker 4: them back. We made some progress, but man, it is
Speaker 4: frustrating and it is slow, and it's like crawling up.
Speaker 4: He'll try to pull a rock at the same time.
Speaker 4: One of the guys at the forefront of that joins
Speaker 4: us right now. Bill Sack is the director of legal
Speaker 4: operations for the Second Amendment Foundation. Bill, you've been doing
Speaker 4: just a long time. Thanks for joining us.
Speaker 5: Hey, Tom, good to be here.
Speaker 4: You bet okay, Well, you hear what I say. It's
Speaker 4: like it's different when you're in I don't know, maybe
Speaker 4: it isn't. I'm assuming it's different when you're in the
Speaker 4: middle of it, because a lot of us out here
Speaker 4: just get frustrated. We look at all these cases and going,
Speaker 4: why can't we just win the big one and make
Speaker 4: this thing go away? It seems so simple to us,
Speaker 4: and yet you're faced with having fifty or sixty suits
Speaker 4: going at a time and making you know, two steps forward,
Speaker 4: one step back.
Speaker 5: Yeah, that is the nature of the thing. Although you know,
Speaker 5: I think it's important to remember that. Looking just at
Speaker 5: like the media mark of history here, you know, like
Speaker 5: where we've come in the last fifteen years or so
Speaker 5: is overwhelmingly positive. Like things are so good now compared
Speaker 5: to how they were, and by all means, our work
Speaker 5: is not at all done. But you know, when we
Speaker 5: look at the fact that we have permitless and I
Speaker 5: think we're up to thirty some odd states now, you know,
Speaker 5: we we have the Heller Decision guaranteeing the individual right
Speaker 5: to possess firearms in the home. We have the Brewined
Speaker 5: Decision talking about and confirming our right to carry outside.
Speaker 6: Of the home.
Speaker 5: You know, things are better now than they have been
Speaker 5: in a long time. So while there's plenty of work
Speaker 5: yet to be done, and you're right, we've got I
Speaker 5: think we're up to fifty six or fifty seven cases now,
Speaker 5: which we can talk about a lot of work has
Speaker 5: to be done, but Boyer, things going in the right
Speaker 5: direction in large part, and I think it's important to
Speaker 5: keep people's morale high because things are going. Okay, we're
Speaker 5: not done, but things aren't going terribly.
Speaker 4: No, you're exactly, you're right. I remember back, yeah, way
Speaker 4: way way back, the nineteen sixty eight Gun Control Act,
Speaker 4: which was the DoD Bill. I remember hearing about that
Speaker 4: when I was in high school. I debated it in
Speaker 4: high school, and after it was passed, and then we
Speaker 4: got more and I kept thinking, you know, this, this
Speaker 4: could be the end the Second Endment. It's on a
Speaker 4: downhill slide. It was not looking good back then, and
Speaker 4: then even as much as twenty years ago, it was
Speaker 4: not looking great at all. So you're right, we've made
Speaker 4: some real advancements, but there's just some knuckleheaded decisions being
Speaker 4: made and a lot of anti gun activism at a
Speaker 4: state level. Is that fair? Yeah?
Speaker 7: Absolutely.
Speaker 5: I mean we've got you know, like a six or
Speaker 5: seven states, give or take that i'd like to call,
Speaker 5: you know, the the bastion of bad ideas where these
Speaker 5: things brew and then spread to their friends, you know,
Speaker 5: and we can all name them, you know, New Jersey,
Speaker 5: in Massachusetts and California and Connecticut, Hawaii, Maryland. You know,
Speaker 5: there is a tendency amongst the states where there's you know,
Speaker 5: not a lot of political competition to do whatever it
Speaker 5: is that they want to do. And anytime they perceive
Speaker 5: that there's been a win on behalf of the Second Amendment,
Speaker 5: you know, with the help of a whole lot of
Speaker 5: other anti gun groups, they're always interested in coming up
Speaker 5: with a new novel approach to try to snack back
Speaker 5: some of the rights that we just restored, so that
Speaker 5: that ain't going to change anytime soon. It's a good
Speaker 5: job security for me, but.
Speaker 6: I wish it weren't.
Speaker 4: All right, let me ask you about one that just
Speaker 4: popped up. I was going to ask you about it anyway,
Speaker 4: but then we got this curve thrown at us this
Speaker 4: past week. The Second Amendment Foundation at FBC sued and
Speaker 4: the court said, okay, yeah, if you're a member of
Speaker 4: these organizations, you can now carry in post offices because
Speaker 4: we'll overturn this idea that you can't carry in post offices.
Speaker 4: And then we got another decision this week from yet
Speaker 4: another circuit court that says, Nope, nope, that's completely constitutional
Speaker 4: for us to ban you taking a gun into a
Speaker 4: post office. Where are we now with that?
Speaker 6: Sure?
Speaker 5: So, I think you did a really good job of
Speaker 5: recapping where we're at. So in our case with our
Speaker 5: partner in the case, fire Arms Policy Coalition, So that
Speaker 5: case is actually called fpcv. Bonding. That's the case out
Speaker 5: of the Northern District of Texas, and in that case,
Speaker 5: the district court struck down the law and associated regulation
Speaker 5: that bans carry of firearms in your average post office.
Speaker 5: And so what I mean by average post office is
Speaker 5: post offices that don't otherwise ban carry for a secondary reason.
Speaker 5: And what I mean by that is, for example, post
Speaker 5: offices that are like on a military base or something.
Speaker 5: So the basic ban on carrying in a post office
Speaker 5: or on post office property. And that's also important because
Speaker 5: the ban also includes the parking lot. As soon as
Speaker 5: you hit the boxing lot, you know, taking your gun
Speaker 5: out of your waist and throwing it in the safe
Speaker 5: in your center console, you're still in violation of the law.
Speaker 5: This injunction struck down that ban as unconstitutional. Again, this
Speaker 5: was at a district court in Texas, and then there
Speaker 5: was a question back and forth about what the scope
Speaker 5: of that injunction was, who was going to be protected
Speaker 5: by it, and there was some additional briefing In just
Speaker 5: this past week. Joe O'Connor in the Northern District did
Speaker 5: the right thing, or so we think, and said that
Speaker 5: the injunction covers all SAFF and FPC members, both those
Speaker 5: that are current and any future members. So any member
Speaker 5: that signs up today can be covered by that injunction,
Speaker 5: and that injunction not only covers current and future members,
Speaker 5: but it's not restricted geographically, so it covers members all
Speaker 5: over the country. So that was definitely a great outcome
Speaker 5: that we were really excited about. Now there was a
Speaker 5: district court I believe in Connecticut that upheld the law
Speaker 5: since then, which has the potential, although I saw some
Speaker 5: misreporting on this in a couple places, it has the
Speaker 5: potential to create what's called a circuit split, where we
Speaker 5: have different federal circuit courts coming to different conclusions as
Speaker 5: to the state of federal law. We're not there yet
Speaker 5: because we're still waiting on the circuit courts to rule
Speaker 5: on this case. You know, the ten case is going
Speaker 5: to go to the Fifth Circuit and the Connecticut case
Speaker 5: presumably goes to the second Circuit, assuming it's appealed, and
Speaker 5: so once those circuits rule on it is possible that
Speaker 5: we get a circuit split and then the Supreme courtal
Speaker 5: step in and for all what's going on?
Speaker 4: But is there a way to explain it to us
Speaker 4: who are not lawyers? What we can do now? As
Speaker 4: a member of Segramenment Foundation, Can I or maybe the
Speaker 4: real question is should I carry into a post office
Speaker 4: or do I really want to be fighting a legal
Speaker 4: battle that's still up in the air and maybe not decided.
Speaker 5: Great question, and we have heard this question a bunch
Speaker 5: since this injunction came down. So we have to be
Speaker 5: a little careful here because I can't give out direct
Speaker 5: legal advice to the general public. I'm an attorney, but
Speaker 5: I'm not your attorneys. What I'd like to tell folks,
Speaker 5: So what we can do is we can give the
Speaker 5: factual circumstances and then also let people know that if
Speaker 5: they ever have any questions about what they specifically can
Speaker 5: or can't do, they should talk to an attorney. But
Speaker 5: here's here's the basics that I can tell folks.
Speaker 4: The injunction.
Speaker 5: There is a court order that says that the federal
Speaker 5: government is prohibited from enforcing the post office carry ban
Speaker 5: against you if you are a current member of Second
Speaker 5: Amendment Foundation or Firearms Policy Coalition, presumably at the time
Speaker 5: that they try to enforce it. You know, the injunction
Speaker 5: says current or future members. Presumably the intention there is
Speaker 5: that what they mean is that you're a member at
Speaker 5: the time carrying your gun in the post office right now,
Speaker 5: So that that is a factual statement that I can
Speaker 5: tell everybody. You are covered by the current state of
Speaker 5: the injunction. The way it's written injunction is in black
Speaker 5: and white. It's on our website. You're free to read it.
Speaker 5: What we don't know is, in practical effect, how the
Speaker 5: government is going to handle that non enforcement. That could
Speaker 5: look like a couple of different things. Now, could they
Speaker 5: let you know, Let's say a federal law enforcement officer
Speaker 5: finds you carrying a gun in a post office.
Speaker 7: Are they going to ignore it altogether?
Speaker 5: Are they going to stop you and just ask you
Speaker 5: if you are a member of Second Amendment Foundation and
Speaker 5: can you show us you know your your membership ID number.
Speaker 5: Are they going to arrest you and prosecute you and
Speaker 5: then say that as an affirmative defense you can.
Speaker 4: Depend Yeah, you can defend it on the basis of
Speaker 4: being on me. So what you're saying is be careful,
Speaker 4: be circumstance, right right.
Speaker 5: What we're saying is be careful, and that there are
Speaker 5: still a lot of things that we don't know. So
Speaker 5: we have, you know, put a bunch of questions to
Speaker 5: thedj as to exactly how it is they plan on
Speaker 5: handling this situation, we encourage other folks to do the
Speaker 5: same thing. You don't contact your local representatives and ask
Speaker 5: them to get in touch with thej on their behalf.
Speaker 5: And you know, if we get some formal statements on
Speaker 5: how they plan on doing with this, that would certainly
Speaker 5: be helpful.
Speaker 4: But that it's just messy, isn't it.
Speaker 5: It's a little messy, And that's why we want to
Speaker 5: be very careful because the last thing we want to
Speaker 5: do is tell folks, yeah, go ahead and do this thing,
Speaker 5: and then that thing lands them in at least some
Speaker 5: level of aggravation or harassment by the government that they
Speaker 5: don't want and we didn't want to unknowingly put them in.
Speaker 5: So that's why I got to be a little bit careful.
Speaker 5: And it's still a little legal.
Speaker 4: One, I understand. I understand, all right, Tay, what hold
Speaker 4: on a second, I gotta take a break. We've got
Speaker 4: some other cases you want to talk about. And by
Speaker 4: the way, I'm free to give out free legal advice
Speaker 4: here because I'm not an attorney, so I can't be
Speaker 4: just barked. So there you go. That's my position. Almost
Speaker 4: stick to that. Hey, if gored to join us here,
Speaker 4: if you called eight to six six talk gun or
Speaker 4: Tom Talk Gun. I'm Tom Gresham. This is gun Talk.
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Speaker 4: Hey, welcome back with Bill Sack, he's the director of
Speaker 4: Legal Operations for the Second Amendment Foundation, and that we
Speaker 4: were just talking about the post office case. It's a
Speaker 4: really good example, just one of many reasons it'd be
Speaker 4: advantageous for people to belong to the Second Amendment Foundation.
Speaker 4: It's not expensive and it's worthwhile if you would. Can
Speaker 4: you pick out maybe a couple of other cases that
Speaker 4: we should be paying attention to or that you think,
Speaker 4: you look at it and go, these could be really consequential.
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, I mean, that's that's easy. So probably the
Speaker 5: biggest ones that are going to affect the most people
Speaker 5: all over the country are probably represented by the fact
Speaker 5: that we've got five cases right now sitting at the
Speaker 5: front door of the Supreme Court, and it really tackles
Speaker 5: kind of the i think three of the biggest issues
Speaker 5: that we're tackling kind of nationwide. So we've got two
Speaker 5: assault weapons ban cases sitting before the Supreme Court seeing
Speaker 5: if they're interested in finally biting on an assault weapons
Speaker 5: ban case. We've got a case called Vivermontes, which is
Speaker 5: out of Cook County, Illinois, like the Chicago area and Illinois,
Speaker 5: they are assault weapons span. And then we have a
Speaker 5: case called Grant v. Ravella, which is our assault weapons
Speaker 5: ban case out of Connecticut. Both of those are just
Speaker 5: sitting on the Justice's desks. If they choose to take
Speaker 5: that case, we'd be thrilled or both for that matter.
Speaker 5: We also have two cases about young adults. So young
Speaker 5: adults in this country face all sorts of unconstitutional gun
Speaker 5: control purely based on their age. And typically it's folks
Speaker 5: that are between eight age eighteen and twenty because a
Speaker 5: lot of gun rights, for whatever reason, they're hidden behind
Speaker 5: like a paywall, so to speak, until you turn twenty one.
Speaker 5: And that doesn't make any sense. That's not how constitutional
Speaker 5: rights work. When you become a legal adult, you get
Speaker 5: all of the rights supported to you by the Constitution,
Speaker 5: if not sooner, but certainly by the time you're eighteen.
Speaker 5: So we've got two cases at the Supreme Court about
Speaker 5: that issue. We have a case called Staff the Paris
Speaker 5: coming out of my home state of Pennsylvania. And then
Speaker 5: we have another case that was called Brown v.
Speaker 6: ATF.
Speaker 5: I believe it's now called Western Virginia Citizens Defense League
Speaker 5: the ATF, and that's about the young adult handgun purchase ban,
Speaker 5: which is a federal law. You know, most young rights
Speaker 5: or gun people that have been gun people for a
Speaker 5: long time know that you can't go just buy a
Speaker 5: handgun from a gun shop until you turn twenty one. Well,
Speaker 5: we've got two lawsuits challenging that. One lawsuit struck it down,
Speaker 5: one lawsuit upheld it. So we have a so called
Speaker 5: circuit split there, and so we're really hopeful that the
Speaker 5: Supreme Court takes that issue up because.
Speaker 4: And Bill, I wish you had to let people know.
Speaker 4: Weirdly enough, it may not be legal for an eighteen
Speaker 4: year old to buy a handgun from a dator, but
Speaker 4: it's perfectly legal for an eighteen year old to own
Speaker 4: a handgun right absolutely.
Speaker 5: So what you have is you have rights that are
Speaker 5: differentiated by what state you live in. In some states,
Speaker 5: you can buy handgun at age eighteen in a private transaction,
Speaker 5: and some you can get them from an interfamilial gift.
Speaker 5: You know, if your father wants to gift you a handgun,
Speaker 5: they're free to do so. And then in some states,
Speaker 5: based on state law, you can't do any of the above,
Speaker 5: and so you're completely foreclosed from being able to acquire,
Speaker 5: you know, the very essential firearm of self defense. As
Speaker 5: hell are discussed that your constitutional rights guarantee you and
Speaker 5: that simply can't be the case. So we're excited to
Speaker 5: see the Supreme Court date take that up. You know,
Speaker 5: we could have answers about all of these things as
Speaker 5: soon as tomorrow. And then you know, another really exciting
Speaker 5: series of cases that we have right now. We have
Speaker 5: three cases that we're supporting right now challenging the NFA. So,
Speaker 5: as I'm sure your readers and viewers and listeners are aware,
Speaker 5: you know, the one big beautiful bill cut the tax
Speaker 5: burden for a number of different categories of firearms under
Speaker 5: the NFA from two hundred dollars to zero, and we
Speaker 5: have since sued saying, well, all of the other registration hurdles,
Speaker 5: you know, the fingerprinting and all that other nonsense is
Speaker 5: now on constitutional as a result. So we're trying to
Speaker 5: get SBRs and silencers taken out of the NFA entirely.
Speaker 5: We've got three cases in three different federal courts challenging
Speaker 5: exactly that, and we're excited about all three of those
Speaker 5: whose We think if we can get that stuff struck down, boy,
Speaker 5: it would it'd be great to have whatever barrel length
Speaker 5: and whatever silencer you want and just go in and
Speaker 5: buy it the way you do anything else.
Speaker 4: Well, exactly, right, So, I mean, and these are just
Speaker 4: a few other cases you have going. And one of
Speaker 4: the things you mentioned is, you know, you work with
Speaker 4: other gun rights groups, and I think a lot of
Speaker 4: the people may not be aware or maybe they know
Speaker 4: a little bit more about it now, is that's very
Speaker 4: common to work with Fire's Policy Coalition or the NRA
Speaker 4: or Gunnos of America. And so there's a lot of
Speaker 4: interaction between the various gun rights groups, right.
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 5: You know, we we have found that the other gun
Speaker 5: rights groups and almost overwhelmingly agree with us on a
Speaker 5: lot of things. And we're all pulling in the same direction,
Speaker 5: and so anytime we can help each other out, Uh,
Speaker 5: it makes sense for us to do that, to work
Speaker 5: as a united front. You know, we're all on the
Speaker 5: same team here. So anytime we can be a good
Speaker 5: neighbor and invite folks on cases that we're putting together
Speaker 5: or vice versa, Yeah, we are always happy to do that.
Speaker 5: We have some fantastic partners, some of which that you mentioned,
Speaker 5: and yeah, it's a great thing. I think, you know,
Speaker 5: ultimately it spreads out the expense of these sorts of
Speaker 5: lawsuits across the various organizations, because look, lawyers aren't cheap.
Speaker 4: No kid, Hey Bill, let me adam, I got, I got,
Speaker 4: I just got a little bit of time left. Let
Speaker 4: me put in a plug here too, for the Secondmendment
Speaker 4: Foundation and the Gun Rights Policy Conference. If you go
Speaker 4: to g RPC this year, you'll hear from people like you,
Speaker 4: Bill Sack, and a lot of other people who are
Speaker 4: fighting in this battle. I mean, that's that's important. And
Speaker 4: you can get a ton of information there.
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, jrpc's great this year. It's in Dallas, Texas,
Speaker 5: which is nice and central for folks. It's a nice,
Speaker 5: big hub airport to get in and out of. It's
Speaker 5: September twenty fifth to twenty seventh. Registration is open now.
Speaker 5: It's a very low barrier of entry to register. You
Speaker 5: get said the whole time you're there, and you get
Speaker 5: to hear from all the movers and shakers and activists
Speaker 5: and lawyers and police say, oh, it's great. Everybody there.
Speaker 4: It is great. Bill Sach, thank you so much for
Speaker 4: joining us here. You're welcome back anytime. I appreciate it
Speaker 4: so much. All right, eighty six to six talk gun
Speaker 4: or Tom talk gun, that's our number. I'd love to
Speaker 4: hear those range of parts. What have you been shooting
Speaker 4: or have you fought a gun recently?
Speaker 5: All right?
Speaker 4: What about to you? Tom Gresham? This is gun Talk.
Speaker 4: If you'd like more of me, and why wouldn't you
Speaker 4: go over to x formally known as Twitter. I am
Speaker 4: at gun talk over there, and I post a lot
Speaker 4: of stuff, a lot oft of links to stories if
Speaker 4: you want to know more about what's going on, whether
Speaker 4: it's a Second Amendment or just interesting gun stories, or
Speaker 4: sometimes I put something up it's just personal. I threw
Speaker 4: up a video that I shot yesterday. I was out
Speaker 4: of the back country doing a little flying. I actually
Speaker 4: had to go fly back and repair a mess that
Speaker 4: I had made about a month ago. I flew back
Speaker 4: and landed a dirt strip and it was wetter than
Speaker 4: I thought, and in taxing my airplane, i'd cut some
Speaker 4: really deep ruts. I mean the surface was like pudding.
Speaker 4: It was just nasty and I got out of there,
Speaker 4: but I left some real ruts in the airstrip and
Speaker 4: have been able to get back there because the weather's
Speaker 4: been nasty. Finally got back yesterday, took shovels and rakes,
Speaker 4: and a couple of us went back and we repaired
Speaker 4: the airstrip. You know, it's like your mom says, hey,
Speaker 4: if you make a mess, fix it, get it cleaned up.
Speaker 4: And so we went back in there and cleaned it
Speaker 4: all up. But yeah, over on X I posted a
Speaker 4: pretty neat video of a plane taken off from the
Speaker 4: back country airstrip. So you take a look at that.
Speaker 4: So over on X I am at gun Talk. By
Speaker 4: all means you can give me a call right now.
Speaker 4: Just call me a Tom Talk gun and it's open lines.
Speaker 4: If there's a doesn't matter what the subject is. If
Speaker 4: you just got a question, it does not have to
Speaker 4: relate to anything we're talking about here. It just needs
Speaker 4: to be about guns in some form or fashion. Again,
Speaker 4: Tom Talk Gun is the number. Jeff did that. He's
Speaker 4: calling out of the Grand Oregon. Hey, Jeff, you're on
Speaker 4: gun Talk. What's up.
Speaker 7: I recently got a Springfield Hellcat with laser installed at
Speaker 7: the factory, and it was important for me to get
Speaker 7: the one installed at the factory because they're below the
Speaker 7: barrel and don't interfere with the profile of the gun,
Speaker 7: so you can use the same holster as you would
Speaker 7: normally use. They don't upon clothing. But okay, I'm blimed.
Speaker 7: My good eye is twenty slast four hundred bough. I
Speaker 7: can't see down the barrel of a handgun. And we
Speaker 7: took this hellcat out and set up a regular square
Speaker 7: loophole rifle target and got back fifteen steps. That's really
Speaker 7: accurate fifteen steps anyway. I loaded the magazine with twelve rounds.
Speaker 7: The first six shots I shot without the laser, and
Speaker 7: four of the six hit the target, which isn't very
Speaker 7: good at fifteen paces. Then I activated the laser and
Speaker 7: all six rounds were within two inches of the bulls
Speaker 7: I left, right or high whatever, But that's mint it
Speaker 7: a bad guy, I think, And the laser for someone
Speaker 7: like me is really important to have.
Speaker 4: So you can't see the gun or the sites very well,
Speaker 4: but you could see an attacker out further. Am I right?
Speaker 7: Yes? Correct to tell you know what they look like,
Speaker 7: but I can get their form, and if they're aggressive
Speaker 7: or not.
Speaker 4: Right, you can put a laser on them. Is this
Speaker 4: the first so you've had with a laser on it?
Speaker 7: No?
Speaker 6: I had a couple.
Speaker 7: Let's see Smith and West and m and p s
Speaker 7: before I went blind and either the market gun shows,
Speaker 7: you know, and then I went totally blind, and I've
Speaker 7: been looking for one for several years. This was the
Speaker 7: first I have found some with after market lasers that
Speaker 7: they're not what I wanted. I wanted to installed the
Speaker 7: factory with the light below the barrel so it doesn't
Speaker 7: interfere with anything else.
Speaker 4: Well, I like the Hellcat too. I think that's a
Speaker 4: good pistol.
Speaker 7: I like it a lot.
Speaker 4: Well, good, Yeah, I appreciate you sharing that because there
Speaker 4: are people out there who have degraded vision. May not
Speaker 4: be legally blind, but they're liquid thinking. Man, I just
Speaker 4: have a hard time seeing the sites at all. Maybe
Speaker 4: even with the red dot, even iron sights, and maybe
Speaker 4: a laser could help. It's certainly worth trying. It's like,
Speaker 4: why wouldn't you try it right exactly?
Speaker 7: And I watched a video with Masaude Ayub the other
Speaker 7: day and this was the conversation he was going over
Speaker 7: was open sites versus a laser, and he said a
Speaker 7: lot of us older people are stuck on open sites solely.
Speaker 7: But he said every student that he had had will
Speaker 7: shoot more accurately using the lasers.
Speaker 4: Very interesting. Well, I stuare appreciate the call, sir. I'm
Speaker 4: glad that you got something that works for you. Let
Speaker 4: me talk a second about this idea of you shooting
Speaker 4: better with a laser. Well, there, we now basically have
Speaker 4: three I guess you say three types of sighting systems.
Speaker 4: You could consider iron sights, the red dot or an
Speaker 4: optical site. It could be a green dot, but we
Speaker 4: just call them red dots or a laser. So let's
Speaker 4: review the iron sights. You have a front sight and
Speaker 4: a rear sight on your pistol, and you've got a
Speaker 4: target to look at. So now you have three different
Speaker 4: things to line up at three different focal planes. The
Speaker 4: rear sight's closest, further out you got to focus on
Speaker 4: the front site, and further out you got to focus
Speaker 4: on the bad guy. That's a challenge. It could be mastered,
Speaker 4: and we obviously do we shoot well with iron sights,
Speaker 4: a red dot or optical site. Now you've reduced everything
Speaker 4: to essentially one plane because you could just look at
Speaker 4: the bad guy and supermpose the dot in the site
Speaker 4: on that. But that assumes that you can focus on
Speaker 4: the dot that is twenty inches in front of your face.
Speaker 4: Something like that. And then there's the laser. You look
Speaker 4: at the threat, you put the dot on the threat,
Speaker 4: and press the trigger. I've done some interesting stuff with
Speaker 4: lasers before even shoot. You get night at fifty yards
Speaker 4: shooting from the hip with a snubnosed thirty eight revolver.
Speaker 4: Now that sounds crazy. Fifty yards we're talking half a
Speaker 4: football field with a two inch barrel thirty eight Special revolver.
Speaker 4: But here's the thing. Those revolvers are inherently pretty darn accurate.
Speaker 4: If you put them into a vice, they shoot pretty
Speaker 4: accurate groups. And if you know how to manipulate a
Speaker 4: trigger without disturbing the sights, then they're pretty darn accurate.
Speaker 4: So what we would do is we would do a
Speaker 4: two handed grip and hold the gun down at waste level,
Speaker 4: put the laser on the target, and just put a
Speaker 4: good smooth trigger, press on, and we're hitting steel with
Speaker 4: great regularity at half a football field with a thirty
Speaker 4: eight Special revolver. I am here to tell you that
Speaker 4: it would be more difficult. I'm not saying it's some pop,
Speaker 4: but more difficult to do that with iron sights. In fact,
Speaker 4: I was doing it a week or so ago at
Speaker 4: the revolver shoot and shooting actually LCP the rugers like
Speaker 4: Compact revolv LCR like Compact Revolver, and I got two
Speaker 4: out of five hits on it once I figured out
Speaker 4: the wind was blowing the bullets around, figured out where
Speaker 4: to hold on that so it can be done. All
Speaker 4: I'm saying is that the laser is a worthwhile option
Speaker 4: to consider. It's also not an either or thing. A
Speaker 4: lot of people I know have lasers on their guns
Speaker 4: that have iron sights. You use the iron sights when
Speaker 4: the lighting is good and the laser when the lighting
Speaker 4: is bad. But and this is a real pro tip
Speaker 4: for you, if you're going to do that, my suggestion
Speaker 4: is to adjust the laser so that when you look
Speaker 4: at your iron sights and you're using your iron sights,
Speaker 4: you cannot see the laser. It's slightly below where the
Speaker 4: iron sights are pointing. What's the logic there, Well, the
Speaker 4: logic is, if the light is good, use your iron sights.
Speaker 4: If the light is bad, you use your laser. What
Speaker 4: you don't want to be doing is seeing both of
Speaker 4: them at the same time in trying to make a
Speaker 4: decision in the middle of a terrible situation. Which siding
Speaker 4: system I am I going to use? So you bring
Speaker 4: the gun up. If you can see the iron sights,
Speaker 4: you use the iron sights. Simple shoot. If you bring
Speaker 4: the gun up and you can't see the iron sights
Speaker 4: because it's too dark, what do you think you're going
Speaker 4: to do? You're going to pick your head up slightly.
Speaker 4: And when you pick your head up slightly, oh, look
Speaker 4: right there, it's the dot from the laser. The iron
Speaker 4: sights were obscuring it until you move your head up.
Speaker 4: A fracture of an ens and all of a sudden,
Speaker 4: there's the laser dot. Press the trigger. Get rid of
Speaker 4: the problem. Simple as that. Let's go get a rage report.
Speaker 4: We've got Ned, Francis, I believe Cal and Nan from Idaho?
Speaker 4: Is it Ned? How you doing?
Speaker 6: It's Ned, Francis, Tom. I am doing well. Thank you.
Speaker 6: We've talked before about my defender, my nineteen eleven Defender
Speaker 6: and then a nine millimeter equalizer. Last week we were
Speaker 6: talking about revolvers. I couldn't get through. I need to
Speaker 6: tell you when talking wheel guns, it's always been my
Speaker 6: wife's Model ten. What a sweet little pistol, until I
Speaker 6: discovered the Smith and Wesson Model sixty five, and I
Speaker 6: happened to find a good friend of mine said, hey,
Speaker 6: you got to try this gun. I tried it and
Speaker 6: I loved it. He has a sixty six. He said,
Speaker 6: you want to buy the sixty five? I said, little boy?
Speaker 6: Do I ever? And that is now the gold standard.
Speaker 6: That is one beautiful piece.
Speaker 4: So what is a Model sixty five?
Speaker 6: Well, it's a three fifty seven I'm putting I'm putting
Speaker 6: a thirty eight special plus piece through it. Stainless apparently,
Speaker 6: if I understand correctly the history. FBI used to use
Speaker 6: a Model thirteen, but it was it was blued. And
Speaker 6: Model sixty five, I believe, is the stainless version of it,
Speaker 6: and just smooth as butter. Just a beautiful, beautiful pistol.
Speaker 4: What's the barrel length on yours?
Speaker 6: Nine's four inch?
Speaker 4: Four inch? Okay, you got a four inch three fifty seven.
Speaker 4: But smartly, you're shooting thirty eight plus ps, which is
Speaker 4: going to I'll be talking about that a little bit too,
Speaker 4: about you know, how you get the most use out
Speaker 4: of a lot of these guns that we have. There
Speaker 4: not necessarily the most fun to use. When you're using
Speaker 4: the full house magnums of them right.
Speaker 6: Correct, and which is why back, you know, a few
Speaker 6: shows back we talked about I went to an equalizer
Speaker 6: because my hand strength and just the recoil iust having
Speaker 6: issues with with my forty five, So I went to
Speaker 6: the other automatic. Rent when I said three fifty versus
Speaker 6: the thirty eight special, Yes, a lot easier on my hand,
Speaker 6: a lot cheaper to shoot, and we're just we're still
Speaker 6: putting holes in paper down range.
Speaker 4: There you go, Net Francis, thank you so much. Great
Speaker 4: range report on the Smith and Western Model sixty five.
Speaker 4: All right, I got my own range report. I did
Speaker 4: a thing. You know, we always talk about being careful
Speaker 4: about AMMO and make sure you got the right ammal
Speaker 4: for the right gun and all that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 4: I know. I know, been a lot of times since
Speaker 4: I've mixed them up, but I had several nineteen elevens out.
Speaker 4: I have several nineteen elevens. I have nine, forty five
Speaker 4: and ten, and I was loading on nineteen eleven to
Speaker 4: take with me. You know that image we have, We've
Speaker 4: seen him in movies, we seen him in pictures, you
Speaker 4: know stock photos where we just laugh at them when
Speaker 4: it shows a gun firing and it shows the bullet
Speaker 4: in the air, But the bullet they show is not
Speaker 4: actually a bullet. This entire cartridge, the loaded case. You
Speaker 4: got the case with the bullet, and the whole thing
Speaker 4: is flying through the air. We laugh and say that's
Speaker 4: just the silliest thing. Well, yes, it is silly, but
Speaker 4: now I know it's possible too. It's a thing because
Speaker 4: if you take a magazine for nineteen eleven, you got
Speaker 4: several of them there, and they look the same, and
Speaker 4: you put it in and it happens to have ten
Speaker 4: milimeter AMO in it, and you put it near forty five,
Speaker 4: and you've got the slide locked back after inserting the magazine,
Speaker 4: and you drop the slide, and then I see this motion,
Speaker 4: just blur this thing. What was that? And I look
Speaker 4: and right there on the floor is a completely loaded
Speaker 4: ten milimeter cartridge. The slide going forward ripped it out
Speaker 4: of the top of the magazine and through the entire cartridge,
Speaker 4: through the barrel of the forty five and flinged it
Speaker 4: or as we say, down style, he flung it all
Speaker 4: the way out of the gun. So I in essence
Speaker 4: fired the entire cartridge case, the loaded cartridge out of
Speaker 4: the gun lesson learned did no that was possible. It
Speaker 4: also makes a point I was going to get into
Speaker 4: this lighter and maybe we will the idea of a
Speaker 4: press check. Had I not seen that, had I not
Speaker 4: realized that I no longer had did not have a
Speaker 4: round in the chamber because they went right through the
Speaker 4: chamber and went out the end of the barrel. I
Speaker 4: always do a press check. What is that with a
Speaker 4: semi automatic. I moved the slide back somewhat, just a
Speaker 4: little bit, so I can look through the ejection port
Speaker 4: so I can see, or if it's dark, with my
Speaker 4: finger feel that there's a loaded round in the chamber.
Speaker 4: It's a little bit controversial. Some people don't like the
Speaker 4: idea of the press check. I do it just because
Speaker 4: I want to know, absolutely positively, without a doubt, that
Speaker 4: I have a loaded around in the chamber of the gun. Then,
Speaker 4: after I load from a magazine, I take the magazine
Speaker 4: out of the gun, leaving around in the chamber, and
Speaker 4: then I put another round on top of the others
Speaker 4: in the magazine, making sure it's completely loaded. Because I
Speaker 4: just unloaded the magazine by one where I push, I'll
Speaker 4: let the slide go forward chambering around, So I want
Speaker 4: the whole thing fully loaded. But the press check is interesting.
Speaker 4: We see it in movies now. John Wick does press
Speaker 4: checks way back when Steven Segahal did press checks in
Speaker 4: the movies. But who did the first movie press check?
Speaker 4: There's an argument to be made that it was actually
Speaker 4: James Khan, the actor in the movie Thief, directed by
Speaker 4: Michael Mann, one of his very first movies nineteen eighty
Speaker 4: with a nineteen eleven James Kahn does a press check.
Speaker 4: And where do you think James Khan learned to do
Speaker 4: a press check? Here's where we go full circle. James
Speaker 4: Kahn went to Godsite. Before it was Godsite, it was
Speaker 4: called the American Pistol Institute. He trained with Jeff Cooper,
Speaker 4: Colonel Jeff Cooper. I think somebody said they did three
Speaker 4: days out there, and so when it came time to
Speaker 4: do the movie, he knew what he was doing. He
Speaker 4: looked like he knew what he was doing because he
Speaker 4: had learned it. He had actually shot real nineteen eleven's
Speaker 4: all arranged with Colonel Jeff Cooper and learned to do
Speaker 4: a press check, and so they incorporated that into the
Speaker 4: movie and Michael Mann actually liked to incorporate real stuff.
Speaker 4: He would encourage him as actors to go get real
Speaker 4: shooting experience, real training with live guns before they did
Speaker 4: the movies. It showed up like movies like Heat and
Speaker 4: other movies. Interesting stuff. So all right, here's the question
Speaker 4: for you. Do you do a press check when you
Speaker 4: load your semi automatic pistol before you carry it for protection?
Speaker 4: If you do, how do you do it? What kind
Speaker 4: of press check? Our number here is eight sixty six.
Speaker 4: Talk Gun or Tom Talk Gun. Be right back, Hey,
Speaker 4: coming up in a few minutes. I want to tell
Speaker 4: you about a Supreme Court decision that most people are
Speaker 4: not going to pay any attention to on the second
Speaker 4: d side, But thanks to Mark Smith for Box's Diner,
Speaker 4: he connects the dots and it's an important case and
Speaker 4: Nick could end up making a huge difference in some
Speaker 4: of these situations where there are lawsuits against gun makers.
Speaker 4: And yeah, this case has nothing to do with guns,
Speaker 4: could end up having everything to do. We'll see. One
Speaker 4: of our previous callers mentioned shooting thirty eights or thirty
Speaker 4: eight specials in it's three fifty seven. I was actually
Speaker 4: going to talk about the idea of reduced loads and
Speaker 4: how helpful they can be. It's not being a whimp
Speaker 4: to try to find something that has less recoil. To
Speaker 4: shoot less recoil means it's more fun to shoot, doesn't hurt,
Speaker 4: easier to control, you don't develop a flinch. Well, we
Speaker 4: do that already when we shoot thirty eights in a
Speaker 4: three fifty seven, when we shoot a forty four Special
Speaker 4: or even a forty four Russian, even less recoil in
Speaker 4: a forty four magnum. By the way, black Kill's ammunition
Speaker 4: has the forty four Specials and forty four Russians, and
Speaker 4: you can shoot those in your forty four magnum, And
Speaker 4: now it just becomes a pussy cat a little fun
Speaker 4: to shoot, because, let's face it, nobody don't care how
Speaker 4: much you are. Nobody really likes shooting a lot of
Speaker 4: forty four magnium loads. But let's apply that to some
Speaker 4: other things. If you have to say thirty out six,
Speaker 4: which is not a huge recoiling rifle, but it's enough,
Speaker 4: it's probably as much as most people want to shoot.
Speaker 4: If you handload, or you have a friend who handloads,
Speaker 4: you can make up some really reduced recoil loads. I mean,
Speaker 4: there are a number of published recipes from powder companies.
Speaker 4: They say, look, use this formula and you can have
Speaker 4: a greatly reduced recoil load. Great for practice going out
Speaker 4: and just shooting. And the thing to do is you
Speaker 4: got to shoot a lot, You got to pull the
Speaker 4: trigger a lot. It's how you get better. You also
Speaker 4: can buy from some amimo companies reduced recoil loads. I
Speaker 4: know Remington has some HSM has some maybe some others do,
Speaker 4: and it doesn't have to be a whole lot. In fact,
Speaker 4: some of these reduced recoil loads are just fine for hunting.
Speaker 4: And if you can take twenty percent off the recoil
Speaker 4: man it makes a big difference and it makes it
Speaker 4: fun to go out and shoot. Which brings me to
Speaker 4: the idea that I was having a conversation with a
Speaker 4: friend of mine this week. We're going to be hunting
Speaker 4: together this fall, and I was saying, you know, it's
Speaker 4: where he was wondering about, is should I break in
Speaker 4: my barrel all my new rifles? Should I do this?
Speaker 4: Should I do that? I said, you know, there's an
Speaker 4: awful lot of mental foolishness that goes on with all
Speaker 4: the doodads and the things we attached to our guns pistols, rifle, shotguns,
Speaker 4: and all the procedures that we come up with. If
Speaker 4: this is what the cool kids are doing, I said,
Speaker 4: but you know, for the most part, most people would
Speaker 4: be better off going to the range. And in the
Speaker 4: case of say a hunting rifle firing one hundred rounds,
Speaker 4: not on the bench, firing a hundred rounds from sitting
Speaker 4: busines or standing with sticks or prone, or kneeling or
Speaker 4: leaning over a backpack or whatever, one hundred rounds there
Speaker 4: will offset an inch of grouping ability. I would take
Speaker 4: a guy or gal who knows how to shoot and
Speaker 4: they have a two inch rifle only shoots two inches
Speaker 4: as opposed to somebody who has a half inch rifle
Speaker 4: who only shoots off the bench. Because I think when
Speaker 4: you go out and hunt, chances are you're not going
Speaker 4: to have a bench with you, and you're going to
Speaker 4: have to make it happen, whether it's kneeling, sitting, prone,
Speaker 4: leaning over a backpack or whatever. Once again, I think
Speaker 4: we tend to worry about the wrong things. Yeah, we'll
Speaker 4: talk about that just a bit as well. My number
Speaker 4: here is eight sixty six talk Gun or Tom talk Gun.
Speaker 4: If you aren't checking style, you can go to gun
Speaker 4: talk dot com. Also, we have lots of videos over
Speaker 4: on YouTube and Facebook.
Speaker 5: Bewrite back.
Speaker 4: Did you know the