Speaker 1: Hey, Mark, how are you?
Speaker 2: I'm not great a sore throat.
Speaker 3: I think I'm coming down with cold.
Speaker 1: No, you should try a Vogel sore throat spray. It's
Speaker 1: a natural remedy with ecination and sage, I can treat
Speaker 1: symptoms of coals and flus, including sore throats.
Speaker 2: Perfect. I'd give that a try.
Speaker 1: So we leave sort throats symptoms with a Vogel a
Speaker 1: Quena four sore throat spray made from echinasia and sage
Speaker 1: herbs and designed to reach irritated parts of the throat.
Speaker 1: Available from health stores and pharmacies nationwide. Always read the leaflet.
Speaker 2: Oh hey, it's the extra power bank you always forget
Speaker 2: to charge and bring with you. Alli Ward, and this
Speaker 2: is an ologies that you did not know you were
Speaker 2: waiting for. Oh, dolphins, No one's ready for this, No
Speaker 2: one is. Y'all know we've had a few two parters recently,
Speaker 2: and I just can't help it. We've done it again.
Speaker 2: This conversation was just too perfect and too long not
Speaker 2: to break up, because honestly, it's one that you need
Speaker 2: to savor. I legit like this ologist more than I'm
Speaker 2: ever gonna like my and I'm so thrilled to introduce
Speaker 2: them to you. They got their PhD from the School
Speaker 2: of Psychology at Trinity College Dublin in Dublin, Ireland. They're
Speaker 2: currently an adjunct professor at Saint Francis Xavier University and
Speaker 2: a senior research associate with a dolphin communication project. Also
Speaker 2: co editor at one point of the journal Aquatic Mammals,
Speaker 2: so they know their stuff. They also wrote the book
Speaker 2: on dolphin cognition called Are Dolphins Really Smart? As well
Speaker 2: as the book twenty two Fantastical Facts About Dolphins, and
Speaker 2: they just came out with another book on animal cognition
Speaker 2: titled If Nietzschee Were in Our Wall? What Animal Intelligence
Speaker 2: Reveals About Human Stupidity? And this ologist sat down in
Speaker 2: Nova Scotia for a spirited and no hyperbole, a thrilling
Speaker 2: discussion on everything from dolphins on acid to why Hustler
Speaker 2: broke dolphins' biggest scientific study news. But before we do
Speaker 2: a quick thanks to all the patrons at patroon dot
Speaker 2: com for keeping the show going and submitting great questions.
Speaker 2: You too, can join for as little as a dollar
Speaker 2: a month. Thank you also to everyone for rating and
Speaker 2: subscribing and reviewing, which keeps us up in the charts.
Speaker 2: This week we were number one in science, which really
Speaker 2: means the world to me, and I read all the
Speaker 2: reviews and I prove it with a piping hot one
Speaker 2: this week is from Aidie Tron, who wrote, Eli is
Speaker 2: basically your college roommate. She throws great parties with interesting people,
Speaker 2: and you definitely wouldn't have passed your bioclasses without her tutelage.
Speaker 2: She definitely eats all your snacks, though Adie Tron nailed it. Also,
Speaker 2: if you hear this before April twentieth, Ologies is up
Speaker 2: for a few Webby Awards, including for Best Hosts, and
Speaker 2: my competition is like some loser named John Stuart, and
Speaker 2: the link to vote is in the show notes. But
Speaker 2: I'm keeping my expectations low. Okay, Dolphins. First off, the
Speaker 2: term delphinology comes from the Greek meaning fish with a womb,
Speaker 2: so process that also in French dauphine means prince and
Speaker 2: I spent way too long pouring through smold papers about
Speaker 2: European noblemen. But essentially the French call their princess dolphins
Speaker 2: because of some count of Vienna who called his son
Speaker 2: that as a nickname in the year eleven ten, despite
Speaker 2: Vienna being five hundred kilometers away from the Mediterranean. But yes,
Speaker 2: there are dolphins in the Mediterranean anyway, it's time. Just
Speaker 2: a quick heads up up top. There is a brief
Speaker 2: mention of suicide in this episode, just let you know.
Speaker 2: Let's get into this episode. Let's slide our slippery little
Speaker 2: butts into these fascinating waters. For dolphin brain size, language, squeaks, calls,
Speaker 2: why they follow boats, pink dolphins, the difference between a
Speaker 2: whale and a porpoise and a dolphin, Dolphins in the deep,
Speaker 2: dolphins in captivity, the word captivity, the godfather of dolphin mystique,
Speaker 2: why NASA invested in dolphin research, and love physical love
Speaker 2: between a dolphin and its keeper. So much more with researcher, author,
Speaker 2: and delphinologist, doctor Justin.
Speaker 3: Greg My name is Justin Greg. He him.
Speaker 2: Well, first, let's address theology, setology. What would the ology
Speaker 2: be for a dolphin.
Speaker 3: I don't know if there's a word specific to dolphins,
Speaker 3: delphinologist or that. Maybe a satologist is a thing, But
Speaker 3: that's also like whales.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's all kinds of stuff, right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, whales and dolphins and porpoises. Okay, so I don't
Speaker 3: know as much about like baileing whales or even toothed whales.
Speaker 3: Like I'm just sort of the dolphiny guy.
Speaker 2: When you say that you're the dolphin guy, I mean
Speaker 2: so exciting. How many dolphin people are there who are
Speaker 2: in the community of dolphin researchers, because I feel like
Speaker 2: there's probably a lot of people that are like I
Speaker 2: need to know what's going on with dolphins as a job.
Speaker 3: There are a lot and they come from completely different fields.
Speaker 3: There are a lot of psychologists, zoologists, there's biologists, anatomy people.
Speaker 3: Like they're coming at it from so many different angles,
Speaker 3: so like it's even hard to say how many there are.
Speaker 3: Like if you go to a conference on marine mammalogy,
Speaker 3: they'll be like hundreds and hundreds of dolphin people, but
Speaker 3: they're not even in the same domain. They're like this
Speaker 3: one guy knows everything about like hydrodynamics, and then I'm there,
Speaker 3: I'm like, I do dolphin squeaks or whatever, and like
Speaker 3: we're not on the same planet, So like I do
Speaker 3: need to know basic like dolphin anatomy stuff.
Speaker 2: Right, Why do you think dolphins are so interesting to humans?
Speaker 2: Is it because they have giant huge brains.
Speaker 3: That is the greatest question. I mean, people will look
Speaker 3: at like the history, they'll be like, Okay, the Greeks
Speaker 3: had a thing with dolphins, they thought of them as
Speaker 3: friendly and in Western Europe, Yeah, there's kind of this
Speaker 3: weird mythos around dolphins being important to our cultures. But
Speaker 3: the reason that you and I know a lot about
Speaker 3: dolphins and feel like they're a big deal is really
Speaker 3: because of what happened in the nineteen sixties with the
Speaker 3: crazy pants experiments with dolphins that to all of like
Speaker 3: everything we're going to talk about that's flimplam I swear
Speaker 3: came out of like the early nineteen sixties. It's still
Speaker 3: floating around after like seventy years. Y gvy.
Speaker 2: What happened in the nineteen sixties. Was there some sort
Speaker 2: of post atomic space race? LSD, Now we have to
Speaker 2: figure out everything about dolphins. Everyone's horny. What was going on?
Speaker 3: It was like specifically one person, which is John Cunningham, Lily,
Speaker 3: John c Lily, and he like his story explains everything,
Speaker 3: and he is like, I do not want to disparage
Speaker 3: him because he is the reason that most of us
Speaker 3: dolphin nerds got into it. Because a lot of his
Speaker 3: ideas became things that we then wanted to learn about
Speaker 3: and address. But also like he went totally off the
Speaker 3: rails with his speculation, which is why there's so much
Speaker 3: crazy stuff happening.
Speaker 2: How did you find out about that research? Let's get
Speaker 2: into how you got into it, and then you're going
Speaker 2: to take me back, and I'm going to hear about
Speaker 2: this Lily Pants person because I'm fascinated.
Speaker 3: It's an amazing story. I love telling it. But yes,
Speaker 3: so me. Okay, So I wanted to do undergrad stuff,
Speaker 3: and I didn't know what I wanted to do. I'm
Speaker 3: one of those people who entered It was like, I'll
Speaker 3: take the first two years to figure myself out. And
Speaker 3: there's two things I knew. One I sucked at science.
Speaker 3: Two I sucked at math. So I was like, Okay,
Speaker 3: what I'm going to study is linguistics because I really
Speaker 3: love languages and I love learning languages. Learning how other
Speaker 3: people learn languages. Languages became my thing. So I did
Speaker 3: an undergrad degree in that didn't study anything with dolphins whatsoever,
Speaker 3: and that was great. An undergrad degree in a humanities field.
Speaker 3: So that went nowhere. So then I immediately started working
Speaker 3: like I retrained to be a sound engineer. I did
Speaker 3: a course because I thought I was going to be
Speaker 3: like a studio engineer that records like bands, and I
Speaker 3: was in Ireland recording like terrible boy bands, and I'm like,
Speaker 3: this is the worst career. So I immediately stopped that.
Speaker 3: Then I decided to be a voiceover artist for like
Speaker 3: cartoons in film, and I did that for a bit,
Speaker 3: and then my wife was starting her PhD. And so
Speaker 3: then I had to work all these jobs to support her.
Speaker 3: And they were like temp jobs, like the worst jobs
Speaker 3: you could imagine.
Speaker 2: Oh, like what like how bad?
Speaker 3: Like I had a zipper counting job, where like there's
Speaker 3: a warehouse filled with like clothing items like you would
Speaker 3: send out, like you know, like a haberdashery, and I
Speaker 3: just had to do an inventory on all the zippers
Speaker 3: and there's like just thousands of bins of zippers and
Speaker 3: I'd be like, there's seventy three red three centimeter long
Speaker 3: zippers and this bin. And that's what I did for
Speaker 3: a living.
Speaker 2: Oh my god. I worked in college at a fishlore
Speaker 2: place and I had to count fish lures.
Speaker 3: It's awful.
Speaker 2: It's a living. It was April first, and I called
Speaker 2: my mom to tell her that I was dropping out
Speaker 2: of school because I had been offered a promotion to
Speaker 2: the fishlore place. And she was like, please don't. You're
Speaker 2: a semester away from graduating, and I was like, oh,
Speaker 2: it's four dollars more an hour. So I've been there.
Speaker 2: I've been there. This next part seems like a scene
Speaker 2: from a stoner movie, and by that, I mean it's
Speaker 2: the best.
Speaker 3: And one of the jobs I had right at the
Speaker 3: end was I was working in a bank, like doing
Speaker 3: like car insurance customer service, and I had a computer
Speaker 3: with a screen on it with a dolphin screensaver, like
Speaker 3: one of those cheesy dolphin screen savers, and I was
Speaker 3: staring at it all day and I'm like, why, my
Speaker 3: life's terrible. This is ridiculous. What do I want to
Speaker 3: do with my life? I want to be studying that
Speaker 3: animal that I loved as a kid. And so I'm like,
Speaker 3: how do I make that happen? Because I have a
Speaker 3: degree in linguistics that's a human thing, and I'm like,
Speaker 3: you know what, I can study dolphin communication. I can
Speaker 3: study the evolution of language by looking at another species
Speaker 3: that's famous for being good at communicating. And so I
Speaker 3: went to the public library and I just read a
Speaker 3: ton of books on like biology and things I didn't
Speaker 3: know about, and got good enough to apply for like
Speaker 3: a graduate program and got in and then boom, there
Speaker 3: you go. What's what happened to me?
Speaker 2: And how much did you have to catch up on
Speaker 2: the evolution of satology and things like that? How many
Speaker 2: basics did you need to know biologically to understand what
Speaker 2: they were doing with their brains and communication?
Speaker 3: A lot? I ended up like doing a lot of reading,
Speaker 3: and then while I was doing my master's into the PhD,
Speaker 3: just taking a ton of classes in like zoology, biology, anatomy,
Speaker 3: and like psychology, just to have a basic grasp of
Speaker 3: what brains do. Because again I studied nothing of the
Speaker 3: sort I had like a folk and square dancing class
Speaker 3: as an undergrad. I didn't know what I was doing,
Speaker 3: but I was. I was motivated and passionate because I'm like,
Speaker 3: I'm not going to work at this terrible job. I'm
Speaker 3: not counting zippers, I'm not counting lures. I'm studying dolphins.
Speaker 3: And so that that did it.
Speaker 2: Wow, Okay, the big question do dolphins talk? How? What
Speaker 2: is talking? And are they doing it.
Speaker 3: The problem is, as always, what does talk mean? What
Speaker 3: does language mean? So there's like in late like if
Speaker 3: we're just chatting and we talk about, oh, dolphin language,
Speaker 3: what's that like? You're sort of using it to mean
Speaker 3: like their communication system, and that's okay. But if you
Speaker 3: if I put on my science guy hat and I'm like, no,
Speaker 3: that is not languagelanguage that has a very specific definition
Speaker 3: of what it's doing and how it functions structurally, and
Speaker 3: that is not something that even the best symbol using
Speaker 3: species like animals like the great apes, dolphins that we
Speaker 3: can train to use symbols, they aren't doing like full
Speaker 3: fledged language or even in their own communication systems. They're
Speaker 3: not talking about, as it were, the same kinds of
Speaker 3: things that we are. And I think the best way
Speaker 3: to understand why it's not is that if you look
Speaker 3: at animal communication systems, what is it that they do
Speaker 3: communicate about. It's like a handful of things they say
Speaker 3: like there's danger, or come mate with me, or there's food,
Speaker 3: and that's kind of it. Whereas you and I can
Speaker 3: talk about like how terrible it is to count phishing
Speaker 3: lures like anything that we can conceive of, we can
Speaker 3: discuss that it's open ended in terms of like the
Speaker 3: concepts we can discuss, and animals just don't. Even though
Speaker 3: they have structurally complex systems, they don't talk about lots
Speaker 3: of things.
Speaker 2: Huh. So there's a difference between communication and language. Communication
Speaker 2: just relates to any information that can be a grunt
Speaker 2: or a look or a scream, And we have a
Speaker 2: whole episode just on screaming a link in the show notes.
Speaker 2: But language, on the other hand, or tongue, can be verbal,
Speaker 2: it can be signed, it can be written, but it
Speaker 2: has to have a system of vocabulary and of grammar.
Speaker 2: And I will also link the phonology episodes on human linguistics.
Speaker 2: But getting back to the subject at hand, or a
Speaker 2: flipper delphinology. Okay, when you are learning about dolphin communication
Speaker 2: and dolphins and you're taking zoology and biology and all
Speaker 2: of these things, how much do they talk about this
Speaker 2: Lily guy?
Speaker 3: Not too terribly much, Okay, because I think that he's
Speaker 3: sort of a taboo character in that. So like, if
Speaker 3: you're a serious dolphin scientist person, you will know about
Speaker 3: him and his influence on the field, but you're not
Speaker 3: referencing like his writing. Okay, so we didn't talk about
Speaker 3: him much. You sort of have to learn about him
Speaker 3: through the lore of people who don't study dolphins coming
Speaker 3: and asking you, like, hey, is it true that dolphins
Speaker 3: are psychic or whatever? And you're like what then do
Speaker 3: you have to go and be like where are you
Speaker 3: getting this from? And the answer is always John Laley.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, can you give me a rundown on
Speaker 2: who he was and why he made dolphins so dolphiny
Speaker 2: in our culture?
Speaker 3: Yes, so story time. He was a medical doctor, like
Speaker 3: a he studied neuro stuff, and there was like one
Speaker 3: day his friend invited him down to the beach where
Speaker 3: there was like a dolphin or a pilot wheel I
Speaker 3: think that had died, and he's like, you got to
Speaker 3: check out this animal's brain, and like cracked open the skull,
Speaker 3: looked at the brain and they were like, wow, it's big.
Speaker 3: And that was, strangely, the first time anyone had really
Speaker 3: figured this out, because before this is in the late forties,
Speaker 3: and before then, dolphins were like weird fish. Right, they're
Speaker 3: fish that like breathe through a hole in the top
Speaker 3: and then they give live birth. Okay, so they're a mamma.
Speaker 3: We knew that, but like there were no ideas about
Speaker 3: them being smart. This didn't exist until he looked at
Speaker 3: the brain and was like it's big. And then he's like, okay,
Speaker 3: so this like he used to do vivisections, so he'd
Speaker 3: put electrodes into the brains of like monkeys and great
Speaker 3: apes and stimulate the brain and see what the brain
Speaker 3: was doing. This was you know, early days. And he's like,
Speaker 3: I'm gonna do that to dolphins.
Speaker 2: Well, okay, okay.
Speaker 3: And so he went to a lab in Florida, got
Speaker 3: access to a bunch of dolphins and anesthetized them and
Speaker 3: tried to like stimulate their brain. But the problem is
Speaker 3: when you anesthetize a dolphin, it dies because they're conscious breathers.
Speaker 3: If they go to sleep, they stop breathing. So he
Speaker 3: killed a ton of dolphins, and then he finally figured
Speaker 3: out how to not kill them and stimulate their brains.
Speaker 3: And what he noticed was that they made a lot
Speaker 3: of noise. They made a lot of clicky sounds, and
Speaker 3: sometimes it sounded like they were trying to imitate his speech.
Speaker 3: And so that was the eureka moment. He's like, they're
Speaker 3: trying to speak English. Wow, And so he wrote like
Speaker 3: a book about those early experiments man and dolphin. And
Speaker 3: he was sure because of the size of their brain
Speaker 3: and the fact that they could imitate his speech or
Speaker 3: were trying to. The dolphins had a language, dolphins were
Speaker 3: as smart or smarter than humans because their brains are
Speaker 3: larger than ours. And he just had all these big,
Speaker 3: grandiose ideas about, you know, someday in the future, like
Speaker 3: we'll have the dolphins at the United Nations table and
Speaker 3: they'll be there with us talking about so. And then
Speaker 3: the money started coming in then, like NASA was interested,
Speaker 3: right because they're like they're like government was like, oh,
Speaker 3: they might be that smart. Here's tons of money. Go
Speaker 3: learn to talk to the dolphins. Oh, and so he
Speaker 3: started it. Oh, I'm just gonna go this is a
Speaker 3: monologue and a half. He started a lab in Saint
Speaker 3: Thomas where he was studying dolphins to communicate with them. Famously,
Speaker 3: there is a woman named Margaret Howe who was part
Speaker 3: of his research group, and she lived in a house,
Speaker 3: a two story house blooded with water that a single
Speaker 3: dolphin lived in named Peter. She lived in the house
Speaker 3: with Peter to teach him English.
Speaker 2: Wait, this is a lot I know no no, no, no,
Speaker 2: it's not even enough, is what it is. This gets
Speaker 2: so much weirder. Hang tight. Okay. One question. Do you
Speaker 2: think that the dolphin at any point was trying to
Speaker 2: speak human to be like can you please not no?
Speaker 3: Okay, just checking, Yeah, I would say not the case. No. However,
Speaker 3: when when the dolphin with Margaret got in the pool,
Speaker 3: she was actively teaching it to imitate her, and it
Speaker 3: was trying to imitate her, because they're very good mimics vocally,
Speaker 3: but it sounded like you can listen to the recordings,
Speaker 3: it sounds ridiculous, like they're not structurally capable of making
Speaker 3: human like sound.
Speaker 2: Hello.
Speaker 3: Hello. So she spent like six months yelling numbers and
Speaker 3: words at this doll and trying to get it to
Speaker 3: imitate her speech, and it didn't work.
Speaker 2: Was she in scuba gear? How is she going up
Speaker 2: and down these up and down this two story watertight house.
Speaker 3: I guess there was like a weird elevator thing that
Speaker 3: would bring her up and down, and like her desk
Speaker 3: was like elevated from the ceiling and she would just
Speaker 3: sort of sit there and like put her feet in
Speaker 3: the water, and the dolphin would come up to her.
Speaker 2: So This dolphin areum was situated on the Caribbean island
Speaker 2: of Saint Thomas, and Margaret love It side note had
Speaker 2: heard about this secret lab while she was living on
Speaker 2: the island. She drove to the lab where she encountered
Speaker 2: the lead scientist on the project outside smoking a sig
Speaker 2: and she was like, Hey, I'm no scientist, but can
Speaker 2: I science with your dolphins? And they were like, such, Moxie,
Speaker 2: get in the tank. And so she turned out to
Speaker 2: be a really gifted and astute animal observer. So when
Speaker 2: she pointed out that going home and sleeping in a
Speaker 2: dry bed with your partner meant losing sixteen hours of
Speaker 2: potential observation and data every day, they were like, good point.
Speaker 2: They waterproof the labs upper floors too. She moved in
Speaker 2: for a total of six months, and the photos I
Speaker 2: saw looked kind of like an indoor swimming pool, but
Speaker 2: just wall to wall and usually with Margaret Lovett with
Speaker 2: a golden tan and a dark pixie cut and full
Speaker 2: lips dangling her feet in the water or bent over
Speaker 2: a bucket of fish eyes trained on a dolphin. Wow.
Speaker 3: Okay, slept there.
Speaker 2: She slept in the house with Peter the dolphin. Now,
Speaker 2: when I hear the words Peter the Dolphin, something in
Speaker 2: my brain says, Ali, you've read about this and it's horny.
Speaker 3: Yeah, am I wrong? You are not wrong? You are
Speaker 3: you are getting into the part of the story where
Speaker 3: it goes off the rails there. Yeah, so famously, I mean,
Speaker 3: because this was this appeared in like a hustle. The
Speaker 3: first people to break this story was Hustler in like
Speaker 3: the seventies. No, yeah, oh my god, and then it
Speaker 3: became a famous story. But so, Peter the dolphin was
Speaker 3: a young dolphin, a young male dolphin taken from his
Speaker 3: social group. Normally he'd be hanging around with a bunch
Speaker 3: of other dolphins, right, doing normal dolphins socio sexual stuff.
Speaker 3: So he and I'm sure we're going to talk a
Speaker 3: lot about this in the future. He would whip that
Speaker 3: penis out because dolphins can do that all the time,
Speaker 3: and sort of be rubbing it on her. And so
Speaker 3: one of the things she would do to calm him
Speaker 3: down and get him ready for more experiments would be
Speaker 3: to bring him to climax. Oh no, so that he
Speaker 3: would chill out, oh dad, Yeah. And so as she's
Speaker 3: describing it, it's not it's not weird. Like if you
Speaker 3: listen to her accounts, she's like, look, it just had
Speaker 3: to happen. It wasn't as weird as people make it
Speaker 3: out to be. But once people caught wind to the
Speaker 3: fact that there was someone masturbating a dolphin for science,
Speaker 3: like the money, the money stopped coming in, right, Oh no,
Speaker 3: I'm sorry.
Speaker 2: Peter's like, this experiment is working for me.
Speaker 3: It was okay, yeah, no, he was probably miserable.
Speaker 2: Yeah, h absolutely, yeah. I don't want to live in
Speaker 2: a two story house with anyone hanging from a desk.
Speaker 2: Take me back to my friends where I can be
Speaker 2: with them without cameras and clipboards. So how long did
Speaker 2: these experiments with Peter go on?
Speaker 3: Only about a few months, I can't remember, five or
Speaker 3: six months maybe, and then the sort of money dried up,
Speaker 3: really did, like they stopped funding it and they and
Speaker 3: he ended up dying.
Speaker 2: No, what happened?
Speaker 3: How?
Speaker 2: Why?
Speaker 3: Well, that's that's another one of these stories, which was
Speaker 3: famously John Lilly called up Margaret and said that Peter
Speaker 3: has committed suicide. He's so sad that he stopped breathing
Speaker 3: and went underwater and just asphyxiated. He had told her,
Speaker 3: and so this concept of dolphins can commit suicide became
Speaker 3: another one of these things that people still ask today
Speaker 3: in twenty twenty three, is that a thing? And it
Speaker 3: really was just based on that moment going forward.
Speaker 2: Do you think that that happens ever in the wild?
Speaker 3: I don't, because for suicide you have to have this
Speaker 3: sort of concept of your own mortality and the nature
Speaker 3: of death. And I think you did something on panatology
Speaker 3: and whether or not animals do understand death, and they
Speaker 3: do to some extent, but certainly probably not in a
Speaker 3: sophisticated enough way to say that they would know what
Speaker 3: suicide was. So you certainly have animals that are sad
Speaker 3: and stop eating and die. That's a thing that happens
Speaker 3: to a lot of animals, So that's not out of
Speaker 3: the question. But whether or not it was intentional, I
Speaker 3: don't think so.
Speaker 2: Peter. The dolphin, as well as a few others at
Speaker 2: the dolphin area, had been captured in the wild previously
Speaker 2: and used in the TV show Flipper, and another actress
Speaker 2: and dolphin from Flipper Dolphin named Kathy apparently ended her
Speaker 2: own life after the show wrapped just one day, failing
Speaker 2: to breathe in the arms of her trainer and another
Speaker 2: captive orca died of self inflicted blunt force trauma butting
Speaker 2: into a wall head first, repeatedly. But animal behaviorists are
Speaker 2: still split on cetacean's intentions in self harm. And one
Speaker 2: not so fun fact, but suicideology is a legit field
Speaker 2: in mental health care and in research, and I have
Speaker 2: a future episode on that planned. But overall those ologists
Speaker 2: have moved towards saying died by suicide rather than commit,
Speaker 2: since the language of commit implies an act of wrongdoing
Speaker 2: or something to be judged. But yes, stay tuned for
Speaker 2: that episode. What about the notion of dolphins as people?
Speaker 2: Did these experiments pave the way for that.
Speaker 3: Yes, because the claims were quite strong, and that their
Speaker 3: intelligence levels are the same or more sophisticated than us,
Speaker 3: And that bleeds straight into an argument of weal. If
Speaker 3: they're super super smart, then they should be allotted the
Speaker 3: same sort of moral consideration as other humans. And so yet,
Speaker 3: so they entered into the lore as a creature that
Speaker 3: deserves that, you know, rights along those lines. But but
Speaker 3: but now we get into the modern day and we
Speaker 3: talk about personhood in the legal sense, which a lot
Speaker 3: of folks are doing when it comes to cognition, and
Speaker 3: that's a different that's a different kind of legal question
Speaker 3: where you could say, like an elephant or a chimpanzee
Speaker 3: or a dolphin has enough sophisticated cognitive function to be
Speaker 3: considered not a thing but a person, just like McDonald's
Speaker 3: is a person because corporations have personhood, so why not
Speaker 3: a dolphin, which isn't so crazy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And while corporations have enjoyed some of the legal
Speaker 2: rights of people since the nineteen eighteen court case involving
Speaker 2: Dartmouth and England, the courts are still on the fence
Speaker 2: about captive animals. They're kind of arguing what exactly habeas
Speaker 2: corpus or the protection against unlawful attention and the right
Speaker 2: to bodily autonomy really means for different species, do you?
Speaker 2: And I'm not sure exactly like what rights personhood allows,
Speaker 2: because there are still scientific experiments happening with dolphins correct
Speaker 2: without their consent, as well as abduction from the wild.
Speaker 2: But where where does the line between respecting the intelligence
Speaker 2: and the cognition of a dolphin versus wanting to know
Speaker 2: more about that cognition for the benefit of humanity like,
Speaker 2: where ethically do scientists draw that line?
Speaker 3: That is a great question, and it's there is no
Speaker 3: answer because the folks who are advocating are fighting for
Speaker 3: a personhood to be applied, but that doesn't necessarily give
Speaker 3: an animal in this case exactly the same rights as
Speaker 3: a as a full fledged adult human, because like if
Speaker 3: you think of children, like children are humans, they have
Speaker 3: personhood as well, but like we're allowed to do things
Speaker 3: to kids that you can't do an adult. Like I
Speaker 3: could take my toddler and like put her in the
Speaker 3: car and like strap her down with against her wills.
Speaker 3: She's like, I don't want this. I'm like, you have
Speaker 3: to put on a seatbelt. You know that's allowed, but
Speaker 3: it wouldn't. I could not do that to you, Like
Speaker 3: if you're young, at me not to put you in
Speaker 3: the vaccine. That's not allowed. So even within our own species,
Speaker 3: there's gradients about what is and what isn't allowed based
Speaker 3: on the situation. So certainly that would apply to you, know,
Speaker 3: you would have justifications for doing some things to animals
Speaker 3: and not others if they had person had.
Speaker 2: Well talking about their personhood and their brains and all
Speaker 2: of this. How did dolphins, which from what I understand,
Speaker 2: evolved out of the ocean onto the land, became deer
Speaker 2: like creatures, and then we're like, fuck, this went back
Speaker 2: to the ocean. How did their brains get so big
Speaker 2: and squashy along the way?
Speaker 3: That is the million dollar question. They have very large brains,
Speaker 3: sophisticated brains, and that they have a lot of like
Speaker 3: cerebral cortex that's all folded up just like humans, more
Speaker 3: folds than humans even, And the question is, well, why
Speaker 3: why do they need it? And there are a lot
Speaker 3: of competing hypotheses and no answers. Some major hypotheses are
Speaker 3: it's diet related, like they are omnivores or not omnivores,
Speaker 3: but they are hunting and looking for food in the
Speaker 3: same way like a crow might do, or like a human,
Speaker 3: and so they need because of the ecological needs of
Speaker 3: being a smart hunter, their brains got big. That's potentially
Speaker 3: an answer, But the more interesting answer is that it's
Speaker 3: for social navigation because dolphins live in exceedingly complicated social
Speaker 3: groups and they need to navigate those social groups. Necessitates
Speaker 3: a lot of brain power to keep track of, like
Speaker 3: who your friends and enemies are, Like who do you hate?
Speaker 3: Who helped you last year.
Speaker 2: I'm not going to make a big deal at my party,
Speaker 2: but she is so rich.
Speaker 3: And so that is the leading hypothesis, which is probably
Speaker 3: still wrong, but it's a really good one.
Speaker 4: Mm hmm.
Speaker 2: And I'm sure there's a spectrum of wellbeing for marine
Speaker 2: mammals that are human kept on one end being well
Speaker 2: cared for or research animals that are minimally disturbed in
Speaker 2: larger natural habitats, and then on the other like whales
Speaker 2: kept in oversized swimming pools and forced to perform for
Speaker 2: screaming children.
Speaker 3: Certainly, on the face of it, if you take a
Speaker 3: very social mammal living in a large social group or
Speaker 3: like Orca's in a family pod, and then you separate them,
Speaker 3: you would assume that they aren't having a lot of
Speaker 3: fun in that scenario. That's probably true, although it's very
Speaker 3: species specific and probably very individual dolphin specific, and also
Speaker 3: really hard to measure. Like if you think, like you know,
Speaker 3: common bottle, those dolphins they live way out at the
Speaker 3: pelagic species they live out in middle of nowhere. Like
Speaker 3: if you take one of those and you put it
Speaker 3: in captivity, it like dies instantly because it's like it
Speaker 3: cannot handle whatever the captivity constraints are but a bottle.
Speaker 3: Those dolphins pretty resilient species, gets along really well with humans,
Speaker 3: can handle like new social groupings. Okay, they're probably not
Speaker 3: as freaked out as other species would be.
Speaker 2: Researchers do keep dolphins in captivity to study them, right,
Speaker 2: do you have any idea how do they make sure
Speaker 2: that the dolphins are okay, that they're studying them but
Speaker 2: they're not in distress.
Speaker 3: Yeah, people who study them, and these days it's a
Speaker 3: lot better than it used to be, and some facilities
Speaker 3: are way better at this than others. They will have
Speaker 3: veterinarians and research teams whose whole job it is to
Speaker 3: monitor their levels of you know, hormones, stress hormones and things,
Speaker 3: just to make sure they're okay. And then you have
Speaker 3: behavior experts who are there with the dolphins all the
Speaker 3: time just to monitor their behavior. But of course that's
Speaker 3: always the controversy like oh okay, but you don't really
Speaker 3: know what the dolphins experiencing consciously, like how does it
Speaker 3: actually feel? So it's hard to know for sure, so
Speaker 3: you're making a best guess. Like if a dolphin is
Speaker 3: like listless and not eating, probably sad. If they're running
Speaker 3: around and swimming around and playing and happy looking making
Speaker 3: a lot of sounds they're probably okay, but like who
Speaker 3: knows for sure? And again like how do you measure
Speaker 3: it within the science of it? You just have two camps.
Speaker 3: There's like people who are like captivity is the worst
Speaker 3: and let me show you all the ways, and then
Speaker 3: people are like, it's not that bad. Check these experiments
Speaker 3: out to show you. So there's no consensus.
Speaker 2: So there was a series of papers on cetacean welfare
Speaker 2: and professionally managed programs and it was published in twenty
Speaker 2: twenty one, and it was about enrichment and habitat use
Speaker 2: and cortisol levels. But it was conducted by and partnered
Speaker 2: with forty three different zoos and aquaria who tend to
Speaker 2: land on the captivity is fine side of the aisle.
Speaker 2: Despite the backlash that has erupted in a decade since
Speaker 2: the documentary Blackfish gave people the big ick about sea world.
Speaker 2: But if you're say, cruisin in the wild, how many
Speaker 2: dolphins are out there? What about species of dolphins? How
Speaker 2: many dolphins are out there?
Speaker 3: Nobody knows? Okay, okay, Like it's about somewhere between thirty
Speaker 3: eight forty two. Like scientists fight about that too, Like
Speaker 3: I love reading the literature where they're just yelling at
Speaker 3: each other about like, well, this ecotype is technically a
Speaker 3: new species, blah blah, and they're just fighting. And so
Speaker 3: I'm gonna say forty ish, okay.
Speaker 2: Forty species. Just to clarify once again, Dolphins, they're not fish.
Speaker 2: They're mammals. So evolutionarily, mammals evolved from aquatic creatures that
Speaker 2: had come out of the water to live on land.
Speaker 2: But fifty million years ago, some of those related to
Speaker 2: deer decided fuck this. They started splashing around in the
Speaker 2: water again, and eventually they evolved back into sea creatures.
Speaker 2: They're closest living relatives hippopotamuses what, and dolphins have leftover
Speaker 2: helvis nubbins where hind legs once were. Also, dolphins are
Speaker 2: not porpoises. I did not know this. Porpoises have less
Speaker 2: of a snout and more of a cone shaped face,
Speaker 2: and they have a triangular dorsal fin instead of hooked.
Speaker 2: Porpoises also tend to be in cooler waters. Well, dolphins
Speaker 2: prefer more temperate oceans. But they're all in the oceans, right.
Speaker 2: What about the pink ones. Why are some of them pink?
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's the well, there's a pink river dolphin freshwater. Yes,
Speaker 3: they live in the Amazon, and so there are a
Speaker 3: few species, as a handful of six or seven that
Speaker 3: live in fresh water. They're always the most screwed because
Speaker 3: they live close to people. But the pink ones, they
Speaker 3: start out gray. This is the weird thing about river dolphins.
Speaker 3: And then they get all that pink skin from like
Speaker 3: chewing on each other. So there's just a lot of
Speaker 3: scar tissue in things. I think is the main reason
Speaker 3: for the pinkness, which is weird. No, yeah, that's my
Speaker 3: understanding of how Amazon river dolphins get kind of pink.
Speaker 2: Wow, like hockey players, why are they doing that to
Speaker 2: each other?
Speaker 3: Well, I always say this, there's similar to people, and
Speaker 3: this is the reason we love them and are freaked
Speaker 3: out by them and have strong opinions about them because
Speaker 3: they fight for their you know, anything having to do
Speaker 3: like why do people fight each other? I don't know,
Speaker 3: Like why do I neighbor and I not get along? Sometimes?
Speaker 3: Like stupid reasons? Complicated social species often fight about stuff.
Speaker 3: I mean, there are reasons for like you know, related
Speaker 3: to like mating and other things, But for the most part,
Speaker 3: they're just they can get grumpy. Wow.
Speaker 2: Can you imagine just your whole look is defined on
Speaker 2: how much bickering you've done.
Speaker 3: It's like an mma fighter, like or like a wrestler
Speaker 3: who's got like cauliflower ear, Like you can tell like, oh,
Speaker 3: this this person gets in a ton of fights.
Speaker 2: Can you imagine if they're like this species of ali
Speaker 2: ward has very patchy hair and it's just because people
Speaker 2: keep pulling it out because I'm just a bitch, I
Speaker 2: just keep getting it far fights.
Speaker 3: It's true, well, I mean almost all species. Like they're
Speaker 3: covered in something called rake marks, which is when a
Speaker 3: dolphin bites another dolphin and like drags its teeth across it.
Speaker 3: They don't scar up very deeply, but they'll last for
Speaker 3: maybe a year. And so like any species that you
Speaker 3: see is just covered in rake marks. Rizos dolphins, I
Speaker 3: don't know if you've ever seen these. They're kind of big,
Speaker 3: and they got a blunt head and they are like
Speaker 3: this patchwork gray and they are just covered at all
Speaker 3: times in rake marks. They're just biting each other in cess.
Speaker 3: It'd be like you and all of your friends just
Speaker 3: had your hair ripped out.
Speaker 2: All the time, so feisty. I guess they do that
Speaker 2: instead of having like city council meetings where everyone's yelling,
Speaker 2: which is like another way to live. But what is
Speaker 2: their skin like? Have you ever touched dolphin skin?
Speaker 3: I have touched a lot of dead dolphin skin and
Speaker 3: a living dolphin skin maybe once. And it is it
Speaker 3: is not like a weird rubber tire, which looks like
Speaker 3: it's actually kind of warm and nice and smooth.
Speaker 2: It's warm, Yes, they're warm.
Speaker 3: It's nice. It's lovely to touch. Actually, it's not like
Speaker 3: clammy and cold like a piece of rubber.
Speaker 2: If you put my hand on a religious test and
Speaker 2: forced me to guess the body temperature of a dolphin,
Speaker 2: I would be like sixty five degrees like whatever. The
Speaker 2: temperature of a wet rag is incorrect. So I look
Speaker 2: this up in a paper titled Thermal Tolerance and Bottle
Speaker 2: Nose Dolphins, which measured it at a depth of twenty
Speaker 2: five centimeters rectally, that's nine to ten inches up the
Speaker 2: butt of a dolphin. And it turns out that dolphin
Speaker 2: body temperature is thirty six to thirty seven degrees celsius.
Speaker 2: And Americans, I got you. That is ninety six point
Speaker 2: eight to ninety eight point six degrees fahrenheit, also known
Speaker 2: as your body temperature right now. So dolphins are out there,
Speaker 2: skinny dipping through ocean tides with the same damn temperature
Speaker 2: as us thanks to some blubber. But given that they're
Speaker 2: the same temperature as us, and they have brains like
Speaker 2: ours but larger, I wondered, like, does heat have anything
Speaker 2: to do with cephalization rates? Are bigger brains hotter? And
Speaker 2: I happen upon the twenty twenty one study amplification of
Speaker 2: potential thermogenic mechanisms in cetation brains compared to ardidactyl brains
Speaker 2: aka hoofed ungulates from which they evolved. So this study
Speaker 2: said that because dolphin brains have much smaller prefrontal cortices
Speaker 2: than humans and hippocampal regions, all that extra brain matter
Speaker 2: might not be going toward cognition but just keeping its
Speaker 2: nog and warm, and that their data supports the thermogenesis
Speaker 2: hypothesis of cetace brain evolution and function. Rude but interesting.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And their skin is very similar to ours in
Speaker 3: terms of all the receptors it has on it for
Speaker 3: you know, light touch or whatever. It's very very sensitive.
Speaker 3: They have very sensitive skin, especially around the blowhole where
Speaker 3: they need to go up to the surface to breathe,
Speaker 3: because then they know when they've pierced through the water
Speaker 3: and they can sense the air. It's very similar in
Speaker 3: the way to ours.
Speaker 2: More on sensitive blowholes later. How long can they stay
Speaker 2: underwater and surface and they have to think to breathe?
Speaker 3: Yes, they are conscious breas so like you and I
Speaker 3: like as we're talking, like our breathing is happening subconsciously,
Speaker 3: it's part of our brain just handles it. When we
Speaker 3: go to sleep, we're breathing. Dolphins do not have that.
Speaker 3: They are literally consciously saying like okay, breathe now. Like
Speaker 3: they do not have the ability to turn it off
Speaker 3: and just have it happen automatically, which just makes sense
Speaker 3: because most of the time they're underwater, so if their
Speaker 3: brain was like, hey, I'm gonna take a breath now,
Speaker 3: they'd be like, oh no, no, and then they just drowned.
Speaker 3: So thankfully they have voluntary control over it. And the
Speaker 3: dolphins species don't hold their breath all that long, like
Speaker 3: there are some human divers, like free divers, who can
Speaker 3: hold their breath longer than some dolphin species, so they
Speaker 3: do come up to breathe quite a bit.
Speaker 2: So usually they surface two to three times a minute
Speaker 2: to breathe, but they can on average hold their breath
Speaker 2: for around ten minutes, and a sperm whale can hold
Speaker 2: its breath for up to ninety minutes while hunting in
Speaker 2: the deeps. But the mammalian record is a beaked whale
Speaker 2: that lasted two hundred and twenty two minutes underwater without breathing,
Speaker 2: or three points seven hours. That is the exact length
Speaker 2: of the nineteen sixty two film Lawrence of Arabia. You
Speaker 2: can probably hold your breath, but don't try it using
Speaker 2: that film because you can probably only hold your breath
Speaker 2: for thirty to sixty seconds. But a Tom cruise can
Speaker 2: hold its breath for six minutes, and a Kate Winslet
Speaker 2: can famously best that with a seven minute and fifteen
Speaker 2: second breath hold for the film Avatar too. And those numbers,
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, guys, they're weak. Sauce to a man from
Speaker 2: Croatia who breathed in pure oxygen and then held it
Speaker 2: for over twenty four minutes, breaking the world record in
Speaker 2: twenty twenty one. But you know what, thirty to sixty
Speaker 2: seconds is fine. That's fine. Breathing as cool as hell.
Speaker 2: You have nothing to prove, so just keep at it
Speaker 2: as often as you need to. Okay, what about sleeping?
Speaker 2: I feel like I read somewhere. Tell me if this
Speaker 2: is whimflam. Does one half of their brain sleep while
Speaker 2: the other one is awake?
Speaker 3: Does that Happen's totally true?
Speaker 2: Oh my god.
Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, And it's because of this conscious breathing thing,
Speaker 3: and so, like you know how, like one half of
Speaker 3: the brain is connected to the opposite side of the body.
Speaker 3: So if you see a sleeping dolphin, they will have
Speaker 3: like one eye clothes and the other one is open,
Speaker 3: and they're just sort of lazily swimming along. And that's
Speaker 3: because half of their brain is keeping them awake to
Speaker 3: look out for sharks, to stay with the other dolphin
Speaker 3: friends at swimming with, and to go up to the
Speaker 3: surface to breathe. And so it'll do that for a
Speaker 3: few hours and then it'll switch, so the other side
Speaker 3: of the brain now takes over and it'll just sort
Speaker 3: of like slowly lazily keep going up to take a breath,
Speaker 3: and they sleep for maybe eight ish hours, depending on
Speaker 3: the species and total switching off and on, and is that.
Speaker 2: I mean, I suppose that must be RESTful enough, right.
Speaker 3: Totally it works great for them. And there are these
Speaker 3: crazy experiments where they're like, is this really true? So
Speaker 3: we're gonna see how awake they are or how much
Speaker 3: rest they're getting. And so you do this experiment where
Speaker 3: you get the dolphin to like touch a paddle like
Speaker 3: every minute, and you just keep that up for hours
Speaker 3: and hours and days and days and see if it
Speaker 3: will still do it. And yep, they could do it forever.
Speaker 3: Like they're awake enough to actually engage in things and
Speaker 3: are obviously getting enough sleep to survive.
Speaker 2: Wow, what are they eating? Who's eating?
Speaker 3: What they eat? The stuff you would totally expect them
Speaker 3: to eat. So whatever fish and squid.
Speaker 2: And such, do they have to dive really deep?
Speaker 3: Some species do need to get down into the area
Speaker 3: where the fish are. There are species that will they're
Speaker 3: in the shallow parts of the ocean. They'll dig into
Speaker 3: the sand. They can actually see into the sand with
Speaker 3: their echo location that's a whole thing, and find buried
Speaker 3: fish there. And so they will follow fish down around places,
Speaker 3: hunting at night to hunting during the day. There's so
Speaker 3: many diverse ways that they get food and tactics that
Speaker 3: they use, like the tool use you see with sponges
Speaker 3: and shark bay. They will use tools to find fish.
Speaker 3: They use these crazy techniques. Will they make all these
Speaker 3: like mud plumes in a big circle to like herd
Speaker 3: the fish in and then they'll jump through. It's crazy complicated.
Speaker 2: What about sonar in your face? So Justin is an
Speaker 2: expert in this, and we'll get to it right after
Speaker 2: a quick break from sponsors who make it possible to
Speaker 2: donate to a cause of theologists choosing, And this week
Speaker 2: Justin directed it toward the Dolphin Communication Project, whose mission
Speaker 2: is to promote the scientific study of dolphins and inspire
Speaker 2: their conservation. So, whether you're a young student interested in
Speaker 2: learning more about dolphin biology, or a college student looking
Speaker 2: for internship experiences working with dolphins, or a seasoned researcher
Speaker 2: hoping to connect with colleagues on topics of dolphin behavior,
Speaker 2: a college year cognition Dolphin Communication Project as you covered,
Speaker 2: and Justin is a senior research associate with them, and
Speaker 2: the Dolphin Communication Project will be linked in the show notes.
Speaker 2: So thanks sponsors for that. Okay, let's dig into their
Speaker 2: enviable ability to see with sound. What about the echolocation
Speaker 2: they navigate through dark waters using it.
Speaker 3: Yes, so echolocation for dolphins is very similar to bats,
Speaker 3: and that they make a click sound and it goes
Speaker 3: into the water, bounces off of the thing, and comes back,
Speaker 3: and that provides them with some sort of something maybe
Speaker 3: like a mental image of war what's out there. There's
Speaker 3: great experiments to show that the echolocation is just as
Speaker 3: powerful as their vision in terms of producing information about
Speaker 3: the objects that it's chasing. And so it works in
Speaker 3: the dark, so they can navigate, they can find fish,
Speaker 3: hunt fish, all with just making these clicking sounds. And
Speaker 3: if you swim with dolphins in the wild especially, it's
Speaker 3: just like constant there's constant echolocation happening all the time.
Speaker 2: How do they not get confused since they're such social
Speaker 2: creatures about whose echolocation is? Where does that ever confuse
Speaker 2: them to hear all these click click clickies.
Speaker 3: Yes, now, now this is exact. Now you're getting into
Speaker 3: the area that I studied for my own PhD stuff. Right, Okay, huh?
Speaker 2: His PhD dissertation joint attention and echoic eavesdropping in wild
Speaker 2: bottlenose dolphins, dolphins, evesdrop, oh, spill it.
Speaker 3: Echolocation is directional in the sense that it doesn't just
Speaker 3: go out willy nilly, you know, the top the forehead
Speaker 3: of a dolphin. It's like this big claw be lump
Speaker 3: that is filled with a fatty material that they can
Speaker 3: actually control and move around and shape. And they can
Speaker 3: shape the echolocation outgoing clicks into like a beam, so
Speaker 3: it's like a flashlight, and they can make it wider
Speaker 3: or narrower. And so they're running around with their swimming
Speaker 3: around with the flashlight beams out and so they you know,
Speaker 3: it's like Ghostbusters. They don't necessari they don't cross the beams.
Speaker 3: They can they can separate themselves so that they don't
Speaker 3: mess each other up. What now, this is exciting. This
Speaker 3: is because this is what I studied. So let's say
Speaker 3: you and I are swimming next to each other. We're dolphins,
Speaker 3: and you're echo locating on a fish, and I just
Speaker 3: happen to be right next to you. The clicks that
Speaker 3: you've made also go I can hear them. They go
Speaker 3: into my jaw. That's how dolphins, that's where the ear
Speaker 3: is up into the inner ear, and I can get
Speaker 3: a mental image of what you're echo locating on because
Speaker 3: I'm next to you, So whatever you're echo locating on,
Speaker 3: I also see in my brain.
Speaker 2: Do they hunt together that way?
Speaker 3: It seems like they do. Yeah, So like if you
Speaker 3: get a group of them, they won't all be like
Speaker 3: a click clicklick click, Like there might be a couple
Speaker 3: that will make the echo location and the other ones
Speaker 3: are quiet next to them. They've got it figured out
Speaker 3: so they don't jam each other.
Speaker 2: Like if you're on a road trip, you don't need
Speaker 2: everyone in the car to drive or even have their
Speaker 2: individual phones GPS blaring for the same destination. They're like,
Speaker 2: you want to chirp, shry chirp, And another one's like,
Speaker 2: hey man, al chirp. If I'm not navigating, I get seasick.
Speaker 2: What about some kind of ultrasonic capabilities? Is that through
Speaker 2: the echolocation?
Speaker 3: Yeah, so humans here up to twenty killer hurtz and
Speaker 3: dolphins can make sounds up to like one hundred and
Speaker 3: forty hundred and fifty. So just stuff that's way outside
Speaker 3: of our range. The clicks work so that the lower ones,
Speaker 3: just like us, travel further, and so the higher frequency
Speaker 3: clicks that they use give them more detailed information. So
Speaker 3: if they really need to figure out the details, they'll
Speaker 3: change the you know, where the energy is in the
Speaker 3: frequency spectrum to get better details of things, and they'll
Speaker 3: use those really high frequencies for.
Speaker 2: I remember Joy Riidenberg, so we had her on for
Speaker 2: functional morphology and she she's amazing, and she mentioned about
Speaker 2: how dolphins were used for military training all kinds of things.
Speaker 2: She also mentioned that when she was pregnant, dolphins gathered
Speaker 2: all around her kind of like poking at her belly,
Speaker 2: like there's another one in here, and that they're able
Speaker 2: to almost like see things like an ultrasound.
Speaker 3: Yeah, a lot of people have that particular story, like
Speaker 3: their dolphins are interested in pregnant women. That seems to
Speaker 3: be happened so much that it's probably true. I don't
Speaker 3: know if it's been formally studied, but it's completely within
Speaker 3: the realm of normalcy because they had their you know,
Speaker 3: the echo location clicks are in the water, and like
Speaker 3: human tissue is mostly water, so it's not too difficult
Speaker 3: for that click to go through the belly hit the baby,
Speaker 3: and then the baby's got like bones in it, so
Speaker 3: they can it bounces off of the bones and comes out.
Speaker 3: So if a dolphin is used to echo locating on
Speaker 3: a regular, non pregnant person and it doesn't have a
Speaker 3: weird sack of bones in the front of the stomach,
Speaker 3: and then suddenly they show up with a sack of bones,
Speaker 3: They're like, what is this? I would like to see
Speaker 3: the baby.
Speaker 2: What about dolphins pregnant themselves? Do they have litters of two?
Speaker 2: Do they have ones? What do they tend to produce?
Speaker 3: They're usually popping out just the one and and that's
Speaker 3: the strongest bond in the dolphin community. Most all species
Speaker 3: is between the mother and the calves. So the calf
Speaker 3: comes out and it's kind of small. It comes out
Speaker 3: all folded up. It's absolutely adorable if you like look
Speaker 3: on YouTube for like dolphin berth. They come out and
Speaker 3: they're all like they're literally folded. The dorsal fin is
Speaker 3: flopped over, the flukes are flopped over, and it just
Speaker 3: sort of plops out like a little plush toy.
Speaker 2: Now, given that they have a face shaped like a dildo,
Speaker 2: you would imagine they would come out snoot first, but no,
Speaker 2: oh no, dolphin babies they're called calves because again they
Speaker 2: descended from deer that were on dry land. These att
Speaker 2: remlins scoot out of dolphin vagina's tail first, which is
Speaker 2: not aerodynamic, but they end with a bang on their
Speaker 2: face reveal they're like, hallu, it's me. And then also
Speaker 2: a plume of what looks like strawberry jam in the water,
Speaker 2: kind of like a party horn, and they're immediately swimming
Speaker 2: as if they'd been doing laps in the MoMA dolphin,
Speaker 2: who is a fish with a womb but not a fish.
Speaker 3: And then the mom pushes it up to the surface
Speaker 3: and then and then it's there. It stays right next
Speaker 3: to the mom, almost not leaving the mom's side for
Speaker 3: like months and months, and it'll be there for two years,
Speaker 3: like nursing off o her.
Speaker 2: Where are them boobies?
Speaker 3: They are inside, So you have these mammary slits, so
Speaker 3: they're literally they look literally like just somebody like slit
Speaker 3: the dolphin with a knife, and they're on just on
Speaker 3: the side of you know, the biblical area and the
Speaker 3: genitals up from that. And so if you're a little
Speaker 3: dolphin and you want to drink of milk, you poke
Speaker 3: at that area with your rostrum.
Speaker 2: So that's the nose and it comes from the Latin
Speaker 2: word for beak.
Speaker 3: And then the mom sort of squirts out milk in
Speaker 3: like a jet and then and the dolphin drinks it,
Speaker 3: so they're not putting their rostrum inside it. Just it
Speaker 3: comes out like a I don't know, like you're hosing
Speaker 3: somebody down with like a beer from a keg. You know,
Speaker 3: I can't. I don't know what the analogy is, but
Speaker 3: it shoots.
Speaker 2: Out like an espresso machine, like.
Speaker 3: An espresso machine with yummy milk.
Speaker 2: Okay, what about mating? Are their alpha males? Are there
Speaker 2: pods of roving, horny males? I mean, what's going on?
Speaker 3: Man? It is? It depends on the species, but for
Speaker 3: bottle nose and generally mostly it works the same for
Speaker 3: all species, which is you have female groups and then
Speaker 3: you have males, and they're promiscuous in the sense that
Speaker 3: males will just sort of mate with females willy nilly.
Speaker 3: They don't know if they've fathered a calf at all,
Speaker 3: so you never know who the father of any dolphin is.
Speaker 3: Within dolphins society, they don't have the vaguest idea who
Speaker 3: impregnated them. But you do have a lot of dolphin
Speaker 3: social systems built around this tension of like females trying
Speaker 3: to stay away from all of those males who want
Speaker 3: to mate with them. That's like the main tension, because
Speaker 3: the females want the choice of who they're mating with.
Speaker 3: The males just want to mate with everybody. Ah, And
Speaker 3: that's when you get these these coalition groups like you
Speaker 3: see in Shark Bay, Australia, very famous, where you have
Speaker 3: like three or four males that will form like sometimes
Speaker 3: a lifelong bond. They spend all their time with each other,
Speaker 3: and their little group is designed mostly to just find
Speaker 3: females as a group and try and mate with them.
Speaker 3: And that group will join up with a rival groups
Speaker 3: sometimes and like form an alliance. And so now you
Speaker 3: have two male groups trying to chase that after the
Speaker 3: female and even these super alliances of like other groups.
Speaker 3: And so you have this missmash of like mafia groups
Speaker 3: all sort of collaborating and competing just to mate with
Speaker 3: the females.
Speaker 2: It's creeps, full on creeps. I'm going to guess that
Speaker 2: it is not always consensual.
Speaker 3: Aha. Now we're into something so exciting when it comes
Speaker 3: to dolphins that people, I'm sure you're gonna probably ask
Speaker 3: me a lot of weird questions about this. But what
Speaker 3: is consensual is a weird question in the animal kingdom
Speaker 3: because you have like forced copulation like your otters. You've
Speaker 3: heard the otter story.
Speaker 2: You can see the Lutrinology episode for more on this.
Speaker 2: It will blow your mind, it'll break your heart, it'll
Speaker 2: shatter your love of otters. I'm sorry.
Speaker 3: And it is like crazy, like the male will grab
Speaker 3: the female and like, and she does not look like
Speaker 3: she is all interested in that, but what is that,
Speaker 3: Like it's part of the system, and so like it's
Speaker 3: really difficult to know what a female otter is thinking
Speaker 3: in that. But what's weird with dolphins is they don't
Speaker 3: have hands or feet or and so like there's nobody
Speaker 3: grabbing anybody and holding them, so it never there's no
Speaker 3: examples of forced copulation in the dolphin world in that sense,
Speaker 3: because it looks kind of like the female is not
Speaker 3: interested in mating with these, but sort of maybe it's
Speaker 3: hard to tell what's going on, and so maybe she
Speaker 3: is interested. But then you get into vaginas and then
Speaker 3: things get interesting.
Speaker 2: Talk to me about dolphin vaginas.
Speaker 3: So there's so many cool experiments on vaginas, and they
Speaker 3: species have folds in their vaginas, right, So like the
Speaker 3: vagina of a dolphin depending on species, is pretty convoluted.
Speaker 3: It's almost weirdly cork screwy shaped with all these weird
Speaker 3: cavities and folds. And that tells you that there's competition
Speaker 3: between the male and the female when it comes to
Speaker 3: whose sperm gets to fertilize the egg. So a female
Speaker 3: might not want to mate with like these three males
Speaker 3: that are coming at her, but she will end up
Speaker 3: mating with them. But while she's mating with them, let's
Speaker 3: say she likes George's she likes George the best, she'd
Speaker 3: like him to be the dad, and she doesn't like
Speaker 3: Fred and Charlie. And so while Fred and Charlie are
Speaker 3: they've ejaculated inside her, she can sort of twist her
Speaker 3: body and shift the vagina around so that the sperm
Speaker 3: ends up like a fold somewhere, and then the other
Speaker 3: guy she wants to mate with, she can kind of
Speaker 3: make it so that sperm gets through. So in that sense,
Speaker 3: she might be cool with mating with a bunch of
Speaker 3: these dudes, even though she doesn't necessarily want them all
Speaker 3: to be the dad, but she has some control.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, I'm just putting it away in a drawer.
Speaker 2: She's like, I'm not gonna use this. I mean, oh
Speaker 2: my god, what about blowhole sex? Does that happen for
Speaker 2: some reason?
Speaker 3: If I go down in infamy, it's for having debunked
Speaker 3: the concept of blowhole sex. So please allow me to
Speaker 3: talk about this. This is my this is my favorite
Speaker 3: subject and which is why. Okay, so let's get into it. Like,
Speaker 3: there are lots of pictures on the Internet of this
Speaker 3: one like drawing of blowhole sex. And Ricky Gervais did
Speaker 3: a whole comedy special where he talks about blowhole sex.
Speaker 3: He shows this picture. Come the next one, please, always
Speaker 3: a good one.
Speaker 2: Forms of copulation between botos, the type of dolphin genital
Speaker 2: slit oriinal penetration above.
Speaker 3: And blowhole penetration.
Speaker 2: Oh yes.
Speaker 3: And the idea is like a dolphin will be underwater
Speaker 3: with another dolphin and stick the penis in the blowhole.
Speaker 4: Mm hmm.
Speaker 3: So when I heard this that there's like a picture,
Speaker 3: so I'm like, it must be from a scientific study.
Speaker 3: But to me, I'm like, this doesn't make any damn
Speaker 3: sense because if a dolphin opens its blowhole underwater, which
Speaker 3: we know is a conscious act. It has to decide
Speaker 3: to do that. Water gets in its lungs and that's
Speaker 3: bad and it would die. So I'm like that, there's
Speaker 3: no way they're doing that. So I'm like, where does
Speaker 3: this come from? And so I tracked down where that
Speaker 3: image came from, and it's from this one paper, which
Speaker 3: is referencing another paper from like ages and ages ago.
Speaker 3: So I found the original and only reference to dolphin
Speaker 3: blowhole sex in the Pere reviewed literature, and it was
Speaker 3: from this observation in a zoo in Germany where there
Speaker 3: are these river dolphins.
Speaker 2: As detailed in the nineteen eighty five paper some Observations
Speaker 2: on Behavior of two or Noco Dolphins in Captivity at
Speaker 2: Duisberg Zoo in the Journal of Aquatic Mammals. There are
Speaker 2: also illustrations in which the dolphins appear to be smiling, and.
Speaker 3: The people who are observing it said, oh, the dolphins
Speaker 3: penis sometimes during these social play things with two males
Speaker 3: would go around and sometimes into the blowhole of the
Speaker 3: other dolphin. And I'm like, okay, that sounds wrong. So
Speaker 3: I tried to track down the authors, like most of
Speaker 3: them were dead. I found a living one. I'm like,
Speaker 3: were you there? Did you see a penis going into
Speaker 3: the blowhole? And he's like, no, it played around the blowhole,
Speaker 3: it never went in. And that's it. That was the
Speaker 3: only scientific observation of blowhole sex. And it never happened.
Speaker 3: So not even the tip, no, no, just just the tip,
Speaker 3: he said. And no, there's not even the tip. Everything
Speaker 3: was fully out the myth as we know it, yes,
Speaker 3: is busted there.
Speaker 2: Well, what's have any communication wise? Like do you do
Speaker 2: you think you can glean anything about dolphins sexuality based
Speaker 2: on the squeaky squeaks.
Speaker 3: That they make about their sexuality? Yeah, it's hard to know.
Speaker 3: I mean, that's when you're studying dolphin communication. That's the
Speaker 3: main thing you do is you're like, Okay, I'm gonna
Speaker 3: record all these sounds. I'm gonna figure out what they
Speaker 3: correlate with, Like does a dolphin make this sound when
Speaker 3: this happens. That's kind of what we've been doing for
Speaker 3: a long time. And the answer is we don't really know,
Speaker 3: Like there's not a lot of clarity in terms of
Speaker 3: those sounds and whether like you can tell when they're
Speaker 3: hunting because they're making echolocation sounds, and you can tell
Speaker 3: when they've maybe found a meal because they'll make certain
Speaker 3: kinds of whistles, so you can you can tell excitement
Speaker 3: levels or whatever. But the one sound, and this is
Speaker 3: fascinating that we know definitely correlates to something, is the
Speaker 3: signature whistle, and that is for the whistling species out there,
Speaker 3: because not all dolphins whistle, some of them only make
Speaker 3: click sounds. For some whistling species, when a young dolphin
Speaker 3: is born, it will create a whistle that is unique
Speaker 3: to itself that it makes and so its functions in
Speaker 3: a sense like a name. So if you hear that
Speaker 3: dolphin whistle, you can be like, oh, that's that's dolphin
Speaker 3: one eight three, I know that whistle, and so you think, okay,
Speaker 3: what but it'd be weird, like if you're Ali and
Speaker 3: you're like, I'm going to go out into main Street
Speaker 3: and just shout my name over and over and over again,
Speaker 3: you'd be like, well, what's the point of that, Like
Speaker 3: this person's crazy. And so it could be to announce
Speaker 3: that you're there, which is a perfectly normal thing for
Speaker 3: an animal to do. It's like, hey, it's me, I'm here,
Speaker 3: I'm here. I'm here, but we know that they sometimes
Speaker 3: use each other's names. So sometimes someone else a dolphin
Speaker 3: will make someone else's signature whistle sound to get their attention.
Speaker 3: So that means that that dolphin has labeled that other
Speaker 3: dolphin as a name, and so that's very very rare
Speaker 3: in the animal kingdom, which is one of the reasons
Speaker 3: dolphins are so fascinating to study because they can label
Speaker 3: each other.
Speaker 2: Do other cetaceans do that where they have a whistle
Speaker 2: to announce themselves.
Speaker 3: Yeah, those sort of contact calls, things where you just
Speaker 3: make a sound to say that you're here, But it's
Speaker 3: rare for it to be specific to an individual. Sometimes
Speaker 3: you can like like, I know the sound of your voice.
Speaker 3: I listen to ologies, I know what you sound like,
Speaker 3: so I could pick you out of a crowd. But
Speaker 3: that's not the same thing. That's just me understanding how
Speaker 3: your voice sounds different from like my wife's voice, Like
Speaker 3: I know the difference. That's not the same thing as
Speaker 3: a name.
Speaker 2: Well, speaking of that, AI can simulate people's voices a
Speaker 2: little too well, in my scared opinion, can you, as
Speaker 2: researchers use AI to mimic certain calls or noises to
Speaker 2: see how dolphins respond. If you don't have a Mariah
Speaker 2: Carey handy who is ineffective as a scientific tool, anyway.
Speaker 3: You totally could. And there are lots of ways in
Speaker 3: which humans are are experimenting with dolphins using artificial sounds.
Speaker 3: Denise Hersing, she's got this little machine that they're working
Speaker 3: on and it produces like fake whistle sounds that are
Speaker 3: that are matched up to objects and activities, and so
Speaker 3: she's in the water with her research team trying to
Speaker 3: get the dolphins to learn and use those sounds back.
Speaker 3: So that's one way to make it and the dolphins,
Speaker 3: but it sounds very much like a regular dolphin whistle.
Speaker 3: It's just it's been manipulated. And then I was reading
Speaker 3: an article about like how you can broadcast fake dolphin
Speaker 3: or whale sounds that actually contain secret messages. So like
Speaker 3: if you have like a blue whale sound, then it
Speaker 3: goes like, you know, they're so low and so loud,
Speaker 3: they travel almost all the way around the ocean, all
Speaker 3: the way around the Earth, and so if like you're
Speaker 3: a you know you're a military and you have to
Speaker 3: communicate with another submarine and halfway around the globe. You
Speaker 3: could put like fake messages into this artificially generated blue
Speaker 3: whale sound like like like you know, crypto stuff that's.
Speaker 2: That's got to freak out the whales though, right.
Speaker 3: Right, yes, yeah, And ocean noise is such a problem.
Speaker 3: Oh my god, we're already loud enough. We do not
Speaker 3: need to introduce fake whale sounds. Thank you.
Speaker 2: Oh god. What about you and your research? Where do
Speaker 2: you pull a lot of your data and exact samples from?
Speaker 2: What kind of do you need to use spectrographs? How
Speaker 2: are you figuring out what is what?
Speaker 3: So at our research organization, we have like an underwater camera,
Speaker 3: so we're recording dolphin behavior underwater, which is rare because
Speaker 3: most research is done from the boat. And then we've
Speaker 3: got some hydrophones kicking out to the side so we
Speaker 3: can record their sounds. So the way we do it
Speaker 3: is we get in the water, whether it's a captive
Speaker 3: facility or a wild group of dolphins, and you don't
Speaker 3: want the dolphins to interact with you. You're just there
Speaker 3: like a creeper behind a bush, hoping that they don't
Speaker 3: notice you because you want them to act normal. And
Speaker 3: usually it takes years and years and years and years
Speaker 3: and years for them to ignore you, and they usually don't.
Speaker 3: And so that's what we want is we want to
Speaker 3: record their natural behavior, which is rare but it does happen.
Speaker 3: It happens enough so that we can get a picture
Speaker 3: of what they're they're really doing. So we've got the
Speaker 3: audio and the visuals, and we know who all the
Speaker 3: dolphins are because we're at these locations for decades, so
Speaker 3: we're like, oh, that's this is the son of this
Speaker 3: female who is the buzz so we can trace back generations.
Speaker 2: So some of that is in the wild.
Speaker 3: Then, Yeah, we had a research site in the Bahamas
Speaker 3: around Bimini with a group of dolphins that lives there
Speaker 3: all the time, just offshore. And then I did my
Speaker 3: research out in Japan around the island of Mikura, which
Speaker 3: is has a resident population of into Pacific bottle those
Speaker 3: dolphins and a tourist industry, so there's boats that go
Speaker 3: out to watch them, and I would just get on
Speaker 3: the boat and then jump over the side with my
Speaker 3: camera and watch all the tourists chase after the dolphins
Speaker 3: and fail to catch them, and then I just record them. Yes,
Speaker 3: that's amazing, that's glorious.
Speaker 2: Was any whatever surprised, like, Hey, what's that guy doing?
Speaker 2: How's what he why is he in the water?
Speaker 3: Yes? I was, you know, because I'm like this tall
Speaker 3: white dude with this quol I'm so skinny and weird looking,
Speaker 3: and then I've got this giant camera and this is
Speaker 3: It must have been massively confusing to an average Japanese tourist.
Speaker 3: My Japanese was terrible. I could just pretty much say,
Speaker 3: excuse me. Yeah, it was probably weird for them, but
Speaker 3: and I would always do a thing because I've been
Speaker 3: with dolphins for so long. I know what they like
Speaker 3: and don't like, and they don't like if you swim
Speaker 3: at them. This is my pro tip. If you're ever
Speaker 3: swimming with a dolphin. Here's my pro tip. Don't swim
Speaker 3: at them. Swim in the same direction that they're swimming
Speaker 3: as fast as you can, and then they might come
Speaker 3: up to you and be like, oh, what's this guy doing?
Speaker 3: But if you swim at them, they're like, get out
Speaker 3: of here, and then they leave and they leave.
Speaker 2: Do you need to wear massive flippers for that?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Especially because I suck at swimming, I picked the
Speaker 3: wrong career perhaps, so I the bigger the flippers, the
Speaker 3: faster you can go. So I'm always the guy out front,
Speaker 3: the weird, skinny white guy with the camera swimming alongside
Speaker 3: the dolphins. That was what I did with my massive flippers.
Speaker 2: Did you ever feel like you had a moment with
Speaker 2: a dolphin? Not like a not like a let's move
Speaker 2: to a house of Florida together moment, but like, did
Speaker 2: you ever have a moment where you felt like a
Speaker 2: dolphin was like, hey, man, what's up?
Speaker 3: How you been incessantly? Like? There are dolphins that, like
Speaker 3: I would see over and over again because you can
Speaker 3: recognize them based on their spot patterns or their dorsal
Speaker 3: fin or scars. And I would have some dolphins who
Speaker 3: just seemed to interested in me, and I was interested
Speaker 3: in them, and they'd spend more time with me. And
Speaker 3: people who study them long term have this all the time.
Speaker 3: There's dolphins have different personalities, obviously, and so you'll have
Speaker 3: some that are curious and friendly. And I did make
Speaker 3: some friends, as it were, and so I've had It's
Speaker 3: so difficult as a dolphin researcher to remain cool and
Speaker 3: objective and so like, yeah, I'm just this isn't the
Speaker 3: best thing that's ever happened. I'm just a scientist, you know,
Speaker 3: and so it can be hard to be chill about it.
Speaker 3: But you're supposed to be chill. But like, yeah, there's
Speaker 3: dolphins that I've known and some have died, and I'm like,
Speaker 3: legitimately sad. It's like my cat died, you know, or
Speaker 3: and so yeah, you make friends.
Speaker 2: How do you know if a dolphin considers you a bro.
Speaker 3: If it's not trying to attack me, I'd say that's
Speaker 3: probably the good baseline. But no, I think because dolphins'
Speaker 3: behavior underwater is not always one hundred percent easy to
Speaker 3: understand for some people, because their aggressive behavior can look
Speaker 3: like playful behavior, and so they are aggressive and signaling
Speaker 3: to people to like back off. But then there's sometimes
Speaker 3: very friendly and they will playfully bite at your flippers
Speaker 3: and sometimes they will even touch you, which is very rare.
Speaker 3: But if a dolphin comes up with their pectoral fin
Speaker 3: and sort of like rubs against you in a nice way,
Speaker 3: like you've made it, that's when you know like you're
Speaker 3: in the group.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, I have so many questions? Can I
Speaker 2: ask them?
Speaker 3: Yes? Please? Oh gosh, I bet there's an LSD question
Speaker 3: in there, I hope, let.
Speaker 2: Me check, let me find and control alone. Yep, four
Speaker 2: people asked about Let's get straight to it, So come back,
Speaker 2: come back next week to hear all about dolphins on
Speaker 2: acid and all of your most burning dolphin questions. I
Speaker 2: promise you this episode only gets weirder in part two.
Speaker 2: It's a good one. And meanwhile, ask intelligent people uninformed questions,
Speaker 2: because the whole point is to gather intel and follow
Speaker 2: Justin Greg on TikTok on Twitter everywhere at the links
Speaker 2: in the show notes. We love him. His books are
Speaker 2: also linked to the show notes, and he is as
Speaker 2: wonderful a writer as he is a charming guest. So
Speaker 2: we are at ologies on Twitter and Instagram. I'm at
Speaker 2: ali word with one L on both. I'm on TikTok
Speaker 2: at Ali Underscore Ologies. Smologies are shorter, kid friendly episodes
Speaker 2: with no sweares. They're available at the link in the
Speaker 2: show notes. And thank you Zee Gred Biggas, Thomas and
Speaker 2: Mercedes Maitland for working on those ologies. Merch is available
Speaker 2: at ologiesmerch dot com. Thank you Susan Hale for managing
Speaker 2: that and doing so much more like everything for ologies.
Speaker 2: Noel Dilworth does the scheduling and saves my life constantly.
Speaker 2: Aaron Talbert admins Theologies podcast Facebook group with asist from
Speaker 2: Bonni Dusch and Shannon feltis. Emily White of the Wordery
Speaker 2: does professional transcripts. Kelly R. Dwyer makes our website and
Speaker 2: can make yours too. Nick Thorburn made the theme music.
Speaker 2: Assistant editors are the wonderful Mark David Christensen and Hunk
Speaker 2: of the Month Jared Sleeper, and lead editor with a
Speaker 2: Giant Brain is Mercedes Maitland of Maitland Audio. And if
Speaker 2: you stick around to the end of the episode, I
Speaker 2: will tell you a secret, and this week is that
Speaker 2: I am at a hotel per science conference and I
Speaker 2: fell asleep last night working on this next to my laptop.
Speaker 2: And I woke up in the middle of the night
Speaker 2: and my laptop was warm, and I thought it was
Speaker 2: my dog, Grammy, and I went to pettit and I
Speaker 2: realized it was a machine and that I'm not at home.
Speaker 2: It was a very confusing moment. I also had wacky
Speaker 2: dreams all night. One of them involved piloting a hovercraft
Speaker 2: and showing Amy Poehler a bunch of cool scorpions and spiders.
Speaker 2: So I gotta let doctor Domhoff from the Dreaming episode
Speaker 2: log that into his dream bank. So many spiders, but
Speaker 2: it was a good time. Okay, bryebye, come back next week.
Speaker 4: Oh.
Speaker 2: Part two is so good. Okay bye bye for.
Speaker 4: Real pacadermatology, homeology, ydo zoology, lithology, technology, meteorology, paratology, apology, seriology, elinology.
Speaker 2: It sounded like you were fighting a dolphin in there. Oh,
Speaker 2: I was just practicing my Rosetta stone.
Speaker 3: Dolphin takes