1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,679 Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer, 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,839 and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my 4 00:00:12,919 --> 00:00:15,800 experience as the brother of a murder victim to help 5 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:18,600 other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book 6 00:00:18,679 --> 00:00:21,440 on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders, and I'm the co 7 00:00:21,519 --> 00:00:24,760 administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 8 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:25,519 Kristin Dilly. 9 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher, 10 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,079 a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the 11 00:00:32,119 --> 00:00:35,840 social media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway 12 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:39,079 Murders Facebook page with my partner in crime, Bill Thomas. 13 00:00:48,880 --> 00:00:51,880 Welcome to Mind Over Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly. 14 00:00:51,719 --> 00:00:52,880 Speaker 2: And I'm Bill Thomas. 15 00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:58,000 Speaker 3: It has suddenly become a winter in both of our locations, 16 00:00:58,039 --> 00:01:00,640 has it not. You were wearing a hat or when 17 00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:03,119 I got on this zoom call. 18 00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:06,439 Speaker 2: This is crazy. It's like somebody through a switch. It's 19 00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:08,000 now acting like November. 20 00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:11,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, same here. It was in the forties this morning. No, 21 00:01:11,879 --> 00:01:13,640 it was in the thirties this morning when I went 22 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:15,959 to school for the first time. In my heavy coat 23 00:01:16,079 --> 00:01:18,959 and my scarf and my gloves, and it still feels 24 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:21,640 like it's in the forties outside. Winter has arrived. 25 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:28,000 Speaker 2: Sadly, same thing here. It was twenty nine degrees when 26 00:01:28,480 --> 00:01:32,480 we got up this morning, and in the seventies. I 27 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:32,799 don't know. 28 00:01:32,879 --> 00:01:38,079 Speaker 3: Two weeks ago, maybe on Saturday in northern Virginia, when 29 00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:41,599 I went to watch our cross country team compete at 30 00:01:41,599 --> 00:01:45,239 the state cross country meet, it was seventy degrees outside. 31 00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:48,120 It was a stunningly beautiful day. And here it is 32 00:01:48,239 --> 00:01:50,920 two days later, and it's freezing, and I've got the 33 00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:54,079 scars and the gloves and i hate it. I hate winter. 34 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:56,159 Speaker 2: It's not my favorite either. 35 00:01:56,280 --> 00:01:58,439 Speaker 3: Yes, but you live in the ice box of Connecticut, 36 00:01:58,519 --> 00:02:00,799 my friend. You have to get used to it at 37 00:02:00,799 --> 00:02:01,239 some point. 38 00:02:02,359 --> 00:02:05,239 Speaker 2: Pamela and I are working on a project. It's mostly Pamela. 39 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:09,439 I'm just in the assist role where we're adding additional 40 00:02:09,759 --> 00:02:14,000 felt lined curtains flannel I think is the correct term. 41 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:17,759 And we're up in the loundry room and she's having 42 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:20,800 me hold one of the new flannel lined curtains as 43 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:23,319 she puts new curtain rings on it. We're gonna go 44 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:25,719 hang it in one of the bedrooms, and she said 45 00:02:25,719 --> 00:02:29,599 to me, if we ever move, meaning again, we're moving 46 00:02:29,639 --> 00:02:33,520 somewhere warm, yep, as we shiver and prepare for the 47 00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:39,800 onslaught of winter, the two worst words in anyone's language 48 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:45,759 up here in New England fuel bills. They're coming supposed 49 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:47,199 to be auci this year. 50 00:02:48,639 --> 00:02:53,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, I bet so. My goodness, gracious, from our very 51 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:57,639 very cold hands and hearts to all of you, we 52 00:02:57,759 --> 00:03:00,639 hope that winter has not hit you where you are yet, 53 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:04,039 and that you were enjoying a more warm and seasonable, 54 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:07,759 maybe unseasonable day than we currently are. We are both freezing, 55 00:03:07,879 --> 00:03:08,960 and neither of us like it. 56 00:03:09,479 --> 00:03:12,360 Speaker 2: I did take my hat off, though too accord the podcast. 57 00:03:12,919 --> 00:03:14,280 Speaker 3: You didn't have to look cute. 58 00:03:14,439 --> 00:03:17,479 Speaker 2: Oh thanks, I might wear it next time at the 59 00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:18,479 rate we're going. 60 00:03:20,479 --> 00:03:23,680 Speaker 3: So, Bill, I know that you mentioned last time your 61 00:03:23,919 --> 00:03:27,280 town had a little bit of a snaffoo would be 62 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:30,919 the small and understated way to put it. Environmental disaster 63 00:03:31,039 --> 00:03:33,360 would be the larger and more accurate way to put it, 64 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:36,759 without going into too terribly much detail. How's the cleanup going, 65 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:37,639 you guys? All right? 66 00:03:38,159 --> 00:03:41,400 Speaker 2: We're better. I did read something very sobering this morning, 67 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:44,960 which is that of the eighty two hundred gallons of 68 00:03:45,039 --> 00:03:49,120 gasoline that's spilled on the hill leading through the center 69 00:03:49,240 --> 00:03:54,840 of town. They haven't actually recovered anything close to eighty 70 00:03:54,919 --> 00:03:58,919 two hundred gallons, so it's underground and that's not necessarily 71 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:01,520 a good thing. The people have been great, The crews 72 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:04,800 have been fantastic. They're working very hard to clean the 73 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:10,639 mess up. And now they've gotten the surface areas all 74 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:13,599 cleaned up, and they dug up lawns and removed soil 75 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:15,719 and all that kind of stuff, and now it's a 76 00:04:15,719 --> 00:04:21,680 matter of extracting it from our groundwater, which is messy. 77 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:23,839 Speaker 3: As we said last time, thank you to all of 78 00:04:23,879 --> 00:04:27,240 the responders who are there helping to try to make 79 00:04:27,279 --> 00:04:29,480 life for all of y'all a little bit easier, and 80 00:04:29,560 --> 00:04:32,759 so we continue to extend those thanks to everybody who 81 00:04:32,879 --> 00:04:35,360 is doing their best to get you guys back to normal. 82 00:04:35,399 --> 00:04:37,199 Although it sounds like it maybe a little bit. 83 00:04:38,319 --> 00:04:40,079 Speaker 2: I know a lot of us tend to be critical 84 00:04:40,120 --> 00:04:44,040 sometimes of government and government workers. I just have to say, 85 00:04:44,079 --> 00:04:47,920 in a situation like this, man, these people have been amazing. 86 00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:52,600 Volunteers and the staff here in our town, state people, 87 00:04:52,759 --> 00:04:57,040 federal people, National Guard, they've all been amazing. And I 88 00:04:57,120 --> 00:05:00,439 know we all tend to criticize sometimes, I have to 89 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:03,600 say these first, second, and third responders have just been 90 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:06,319 amazing and we're thrilled to have them here helping us 91 00:05:06,439 --> 00:05:07,439 clean up the mess. 92 00:05:08,199 --> 00:05:10,759 Speaker 3: On today's episode, we wanted to spend a little bit 93 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:16,439 of time talking about the Engage with Empathy movement. I'm 94 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:18,360 not sure what we want to call it. Is it 95 00:05:18,399 --> 00:05:21,120 a movement? What is it? Specifically? Would you say if 96 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:22,959 you had to put a label on it, I would. 97 00:05:22,839 --> 00:05:26,560 Speaker 2: Say it's a movement we're certainly seeing in the last 98 00:05:27,079 --> 00:05:31,639 year or so a significant effort. I think I first 99 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:35,560 talked to Sarah Turney about this, maybe as far back 100 00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:38,240 as two years ago, and she talked quite a bit 101 00:05:38,279 --> 00:05:42,720 about ethics in true crime. I think the Engage with 102 00:05:43,199 --> 00:05:48,399 Empathy campaign and even the hashtag Engage with Empathy is 103 00:05:48,439 --> 00:05:54,120 a very nicely phrased way of conveying what it is 104 00:05:54,519 --> 00:05:57,240 that those of us who work in the true crime 105 00:05:57,319 --> 00:06:01,759 media space and are people who've been touched by violent 106 00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:05,560 crime are looking for what we're going for. I'm not 107 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:08,519 saying we always get there, and I'm not one hundred 108 00:06:08,519 --> 00:06:12,759 percent certain that ethics and true crime is exactly the 109 00:06:12,879 --> 00:06:17,319 right phrase, whereas engagement empathy I think really works. 110 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:22,199 Speaker 3: And when we're talking about that, what we're really talking 111 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:25,959 about is this idea of at least for me, and 112 00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:28,000 of course you're going to have your own feelings on it. 113 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:31,199 So I'm going to get you to weigh into engage 114 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:36,560 with empathy for me means being cognizant of the fact 115 00:06:36,879 --> 00:06:41,600 that behind every crime that is the basis for US splashy, 116 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:47,199 HBO or Netflix series, there are real people, real families, 117 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:53,319 real victims, real law enforcement first responders, profilers, law enforcement agencies, 118 00:06:53,439 --> 00:06:56,959 you name it, who lived it, who deal with the 119 00:06:57,000 --> 00:07:02,360 trauma of it, and who need our support and our 120 00:07:02,439 --> 00:07:10,560 empathy rather than having their stories exploited for TV big 121 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:15,560 splashy series. Of course, I'm thinking of the current Netflix 122 00:07:15,639 --> 00:07:20,759 drama Dahmer, which has invited so much controversy here recently. 123 00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:24,439 I think it's important to remember, and I know you, 124 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:27,160 as the brother of a crime victim, believe this too. 125 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:30,839 It is really important if you are going to get 126 00:07:30,879 --> 00:07:33,279 involved with a case, if you're going to be interested 127 00:07:33,319 --> 00:07:36,759 in a case, that you remember that underneath all of 128 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:42,240 this there are real people. I had a student. This 129 00:07:42,279 --> 00:07:45,040 is what really put this in my mind who asked 130 00:07:45,079 --> 00:07:47,680 me a couple of weeks back, right after Dahmer first 131 00:07:47,759 --> 00:07:51,040 drop on Netflix, Oh, miss Dilly, are you watching Dahmer? 132 00:07:51,439 --> 00:07:53,439 And when I told her no, she looked a little 133 00:07:53,519 --> 00:07:57,000 taken aback, and she was like, but you're all into crime. 134 00:07:57,040 --> 00:07:59,600 Why would you not watch Dahmer? And I said, for 135 00:07:59,759 --> 00:08:04,199 you aware of the fact that the victims' families and 136 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:07,319 the surviving victims, because there is one at the very 137 00:08:07,439 --> 00:08:09,000 least that I'm aware of. I so, were you aware 138 00:08:09,079 --> 00:08:13,079 that they feel re traumatized by watching this on the air, 139 00:08:13,399 --> 00:08:15,920 that this is something that is hard for them to 140 00:08:15,959 --> 00:08:21,079 watch because it is their lives right there on the screen. 141 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:25,319 They're watching someone who got paid to play them play 142 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:29,120 out the most jarring, wrenching emotional moments of their life 143 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:35,159 on TV for your entertainment. And her face dropped a 144 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:37,399 little bit. She looked a little dismayed by the whole thing. 145 00:08:37,759 --> 00:08:40,360 And she said, oh, gosh, I'd never thought about it 146 00:08:40,399 --> 00:08:43,399 that way. And I said, it's okay, most people don't 147 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:45,399 think of it that way, but think about it for 148 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:48,159 a second. And she said, what about all the Bundy 149 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:50,519 movies and things You've watched those two And I said, 150 00:08:50,519 --> 00:08:53,399 did you know Bundy how to surviving victim? How do 151 00:08:53,480 --> 00:08:56,679 you think she feels when as a culture we seem 152 00:08:56,759 --> 00:09:02,360 to fetishize Ted Bundy. He is really the biggest example 153 00:09:02,519 --> 00:09:07,320 of people who, for whatever reason, they really Ted Bundy. 154 00:09:07,399 --> 00:09:09,480 And this goes back to when you and I went 155 00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:13,039 to our first crime con together. I remember seeing a 156 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:16,840 woman walking around, not just in a dress made out 157 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:20,080 of material that had Ted Bundy and other serial killers 158 00:09:20,159 --> 00:09:23,080 mugshots on it, but I remember a woman who had 159 00:09:23,120 --> 00:09:28,039 a full forearm Ted Bundy tattoo, And I couldn't believe 160 00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:32,200 that there is a woman walking around with the face 161 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:36,399 of a serial killer tattooed on her arm. Why would 162 00:09:36,399 --> 00:09:39,879 you ever want that man tattooed on your body after 163 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:43,240 what he did to so many women? Why are we 164 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:50,440 sexualizing someone who murdered women graphically horrifically? Why are we 165 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:56,000 doing that? That's where engage with empathy comes from. For me, 166 00:09:56,120 --> 00:10:00,440 we should not be glorifying, fetishizing how are you want 167 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:03,519 to put it serial killers? And we shouldn't be putting 168 00:10:03,519 --> 00:10:07,960 them up for entertainment in a way that re traumatizes 169 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:11,399 the victims and their families. What are your thoughts on that? 170 00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:14,720 Speaker 2: Bill? I think you make a lot of really good points. 171 00:10:14,759 --> 00:10:19,720 I know we've talked about this glorification of serial killers 172 00:10:19,759 --> 00:10:24,320 in a way that I just find incredibly disturbing. We've 173 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:27,799 met one hundred, if not thousands of people as a 174 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:32,480 result of our work in advocacy in true crime, and 175 00:10:32,519 --> 00:10:34,120 I think I would always try to find a way 176 00:10:34,159 --> 00:10:36,039 to be polite. Yeah. 177 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:36,679 Speaker 3: Absolutely. 178 00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:42,279 Speaker 2: And I remember when we saw people at crime Kin 179 00:10:42,399 --> 00:10:45,039 it seemed to be kind of New Orleans was the 180 00:10:45,080 --> 00:10:48,679 one I think that really popped for me, and that's 181 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:51,480 actually the crime con where the reporter from the Washington 182 00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:52,919 Post was following me around. 183 00:10:53,559 --> 00:10:54,399 Speaker 3: Yeah, I remember that. 184 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:59,360 Speaker 2: Supporting my impressions and my experience at crime Coin, and 185 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:03,279 they talked about this conflict that we all feel about 186 00:11:03,639 --> 00:11:08,320 using media to help shine the spotlight on unsolved cases. 187 00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:11,600 It does have a lot of benefit, but there's a 188 00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:14,240 downside to it, and some of it is things like 189 00:11:14,519 --> 00:11:18,320 trying to smile as a person wearing a dress made 190 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:21,279 of the faces of serial killers walks by, as if 191 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:24,519 somehow that's hip been cool and edgy, when I think 192 00:11:24,519 --> 00:11:25,399 it's disgusting. 193 00:11:26,159 --> 00:11:26,639 Speaker 3: Yeah. 194 00:11:26,919 --> 00:11:28,879 Speaker 2: I don't know if I ever mentioned this before. I 195 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:33,480 was approached a few years ago by a museum. Oh yes, 196 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:38,679 I remember they wanted something of my sister Kathy's to 197 00:11:38,759 --> 00:11:41,399 put in their museum of serial. 198 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:42,840 Speaker 3: Killers and ALCATRAZI. 199 00:11:43,559 --> 00:11:46,879 Speaker 2: Yeah, I was polite, but I was sitting there thinking 200 00:11:47,039 --> 00:11:51,480 I told them, no, absolutely not. I remember thinking, why 201 00:11:51,519 --> 00:11:54,720 in the world would I give you something that belonged 202 00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:57,720 to my sister Kathy, who died in the Colonial Parkway murders, 203 00:11:57,879 --> 00:12:01,440 so you can show it off at your cheeseball museum 204 00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:05,960 of serial killers? Are you serious? On what planet do 205 00:12:06,039 --> 00:12:08,960 you think talking to me about that is a good idea. 206 00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:13,120 I just walked away, thinking, oh, I don't even have 207 00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:15,480 that much that belonged to my sister Kathy. 208 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:17,519 Speaker 3: Yeah, I was about to say. 209 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:22,039 Speaker 2: I think in retrospect, my parents, who are both gone now, 210 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:26,679 made some mistakes thirty six years ago. One of them 211 00:12:26,759 --> 00:12:29,799 was getting rid of all of Kathy's stuff, which I 212 00:12:29,799 --> 00:12:34,480 think I understand it, but I think now I kind 213 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:37,360 of wish I had a few more things. They don't 214 00:12:37,399 --> 00:12:40,480 have to be valuable things, just things that belong to Kathy. 215 00:12:41,159 --> 00:12:43,559 They were in a very big hurry to get rid 216 00:12:43,559 --> 00:12:47,720 of all of those things. Now I'm sorry because I'd 217 00:12:47,799 --> 00:12:50,240 like to have a few more things here in the 218 00:12:50,279 --> 00:12:53,519 library where I record Mind over Murder with you each week, 219 00:12:54,080 --> 00:12:59,200 that would just be physical objects that had belonged to her. Yeah. 220 00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:03,000 At the same time, they got rid of letters, hundreds 221 00:13:03,039 --> 00:13:06,759 and hundreds of letters that we'd received, sympathy guards and letters, 222 00:13:06,799 --> 00:13:11,840 but many of them contained really wonderful stories written about Kathy, 223 00:13:12,399 --> 00:13:14,799 and my parents got rid of all those and I'm 224 00:13:14,960 --> 00:13:17,679 really sorry now that I don't have all those things. 225 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:23,799 Sometimes people approach true crime in a very unthinking way, 226 00:13:24,159 --> 00:13:28,679 and that's where I think the Engagement Empathy campaign has 227 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:33,159 some terrific ideas. At the recent Crime Con a couple 228 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:40,120 of months ago, Sarah Turney, sister of Alisa attorney, Julie Murray, 229 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:45,399 sister of Mora, and Kelsey German Cybert. I'm not sure 230 00:13:45,519 --> 00:13:47,960 Kelsey was married at that point. I think that was 231 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:51,840 a little bit before she got married. She's now Kelsey 232 00:13:51,879 --> 00:13:58,080 German Cybert, who is Liberty German sister. The three of 233 00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:02,399 them did an outstanding panel at Crime Con where they 234 00:14:02,559 --> 00:14:06,919 talked about ethics and true crime. In my mind, that 235 00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:11,039 was the kickoff of this campaign, Engage with Empathy. 236 00:14:11,159 --> 00:14:16,960 Speaker 3: It's interesting because there are so many tensions and complexities 237 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:21,240 that come within the true crime space. On the one hand, 238 00:14:21,759 --> 00:14:25,960 you want to do the reporting and the advocacy part 239 00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:29,159 of things that we do. I hope that our listeners 240 00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:31,679 would agree that we tried to do this with as 241 00:14:31,799 --> 00:14:36,279 much tact and compassion and sensitivity towards the victims as 242 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:39,639 we can. If we ever reached a place where I 243 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:45,200 thought we were glorifying killers or anything else, I would say, Hey, 244 00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:47,840 it's time to set this aside. This isn't working for me, 245 00:14:47,879 --> 00:14:49,399 and I think you would do the same thing. 246 00:14:49,759 --> 00:14:50,080 Speaker 2: Yes. 247 00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:54,200 Speaker 3: At the same time, there is also that element of 248 00:14:54,279 --> 00:14:59,240 the true crime space that is looking for ratings. They're 249 00:14:59,279 --> 00:15:03,919 looking for money to monitor, whether it's monetized podcast or 250 00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:06,840 series like The Lover's Lane Murders, which was made about 251 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:11,279 the Colonial Parkway murders. You also have people who are 252 00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:15,120 looking to make a buck off of whatever it is 253 00:15:15,159 --> 00:15:17,600 that they are working with in the true crime space. 254 00:15:18,519 --> 00:15:22,720 Sometimes that leads to making choices that are not empathetic. 255 00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:25,679 I know that you don't want to call out the 256 00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:28,919 creators of Lover's Lane Murders because you had a good 257 00:15:28,919 --> 00:15:32,519 working relationship with them, but I will. I think that 258 00:15:32,639 --> 00:15:36,679 the use of the crime scene photos from various of 259 00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:40,519 the Colonial Parkway murders. Crime scenes was a very poor 260 00:15:40,639 --> 00:15:44,320 choice that they included in The Lover's Lane Murders. I 261 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:46,600 get why they did it, and you get why they 262 00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:49,360 did it too. It is all about what is going 263 00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:52,039 to make the series sell, and it would not have 264 00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:55,879 sold nearly as well if there weren't look gory, graphic 265 00:15:55,919 --> 00:15:58,679 crime scene photos. But it was a horrible choice from 266 00:15:58,679 --> 00:16:02,840 the standpoint of people who near the victims and loved 267 00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:06,200 the victims, like your family and all of the other 268 00:16:06,279 --> 00:16:09,679 families of the victims and the Colonial Parkway murders. And 269 00:16:09,759 --> 00:16:12,399 I think that when money is on the line and 270 00:16:12,559 --> 00:16:16,279 ratings and various other things, that's where the trouble tends 271 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:20,279 to begin. You've got people in the crime space who 272 00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:23,320 want to honor the victims, but you also have others 273 00:16:23,399 --> 00:16:26,519 who are willing to exploit what has happened from money, 274 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:29,080 ratings or what have you. And that's where things start 275 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:31,799 to get a little uncomfortable for me as a true 276 00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:36,159 crime consumer and also as a true crime creator. Do 277 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:37,679 you feel the same way at times? 278 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:40,840 Speaker 2: I do, And I think your criticisms of The Lover's 279 00:16:40,919 --> 00:16:44,440 Lane Murders, which of course covered the Colonial Parkway murders, 280 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:46,840 I think is one hundred percent ballot, and I feel 281 00:16:46,879 --> 00:16:50,159 the same way as a consulting producer. On that show, 282 00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:54,600 I expressed my opinion in the strongest possible terms about 283 00:16:54,639 --> 00:16:57,519 the fact that I thought they were using the crime 284 00:16:57,559 --> 00:17:00,679 scene photos which the most shocking ones are actually at 285 00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:05,319 my sister Kathy and her girlfriend Rebeccadowski, and I thought 286 00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:09,200 it was disgusting, and I said so, I wasn't driving 287 00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:13,000 the bus if y NBC Universal and our friends at 288 00:17:13,039 --> 00:17:18,240 Oxygen and Texas Crew Productions and x G Productions were 289 00:17:18,279 --> 00:17:21,200 in the driver's seat. And at the end of the day, 290 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:25,160 it's the person writing the checks, which is NBC Universal. 291 00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:29,079 In the series that we just described, they're the ones 292 00:17:29,079 --> 00:17:33,440 that actually ultimately decide, and it didn't seem concern about 293 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:37,200 the victims' families was paramount in their decision making process. 294 00:17:37,759 --> 00:17:41,200 We see this a lot with podcasters too. We're following 295 00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:45,279 the Delphi case involving Liberty German and Abigail Williams, and 296 00:17:45,319 --> 00:17:47,799 there's been a significant development. As we talked about a 297 00:17:47,839 --> 00:17:51,079 few weeks ago on the podcast, A suspect, Richard Allen, 298 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:57,359 was arrested on October twenty sixth, The charging documents, which 299 00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:01,920 are quite detailed and are usually public. In this example, 300 00:18:02,319 --> 00:18:06,200 in the Delphi Twin murders of Libyan Abbey have been sealed. 301 00:18:07,079 --> 00:18:09,960 I mentioned to you just before we started today that 302 00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:13,640 I'm still trying to follow along in terms of developments 303 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:17,319 with the case. What I'm finding that's happening is that 304 00:18:17,359 --> 00:18:23,440 there's a lot of just rank speculation going on. I 305 00:18:23,759 --> 00:18:27,359 look for new information on the case from time to time. 306 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:32,079 What I'm seeing are just one podcast or after another, 307 00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:36,960 and they're just completely speculating. They're just making stuff up. 308 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:39,200 It's as if you and I went out for coffee 309 00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:43,400 and just sat there and just kicked around ideas. And 310 00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:46,160 I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, but it's 311 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:48,400 one thing for you and I to do that over 312 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:51,279 a beer or an iced tea or whatever your beverage 313 00:18:51,319 --> 00:18:54,440 of choice is. It's another thing to put that up 314 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:58,160 on the world wide Web. And you're just like, I'm 315 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:00,440 trying to think of a non profane way put this. 316 00:19:00,519 --> 00:19:02,839 They're just pulling this stuff out of who knows where 317 00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:05,400 and just throwing it up there. And they're saying, oh, 318 00:19:05,599 --> 00:19:08,440 Kagan Klein has to be involved in his father and 319 00:19:08,799 --> 00:19:14,559 and they maybe valid theories, but why don't we let 320 00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:19,960 this process work and take this case to trial. I'm 321 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:23,119 actually very concerned there could be a possibility there may 322 00:19:23,119 --> 00:19:27,160 be a mistrial in some of these examples, because people 323 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:33,359 are just throwing out baseless speculation, naming suspects, doxing as 324 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:39,279 they say, suspects, potential suspects. The practice of doxing is 325 00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:45,240 providing people's information, names, addresses, dates of birth, and these 326 00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:47,880 are people who have not necessarily been charged with a crime. 327 00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:52,440 And I think some of this stuff is just outrageously irresponsible. 328 00:19:53,079 --> 00:19:57,400 I think that's very frightening. If we're really supposed to 329 00:19:57,400 --> 00:20:01,480 be on the side of the William and German family 330 00:20:02,039 --> 00:20:05,359 in the Delphi case, where we are looking for justice, 331 00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:10,000 we want some degree of and don't like that word closure, 332 00:20:10,079 --> 00:20:16,960 but right justice I'm reasonably comfortable with. Then why would 333 00:20:17,039 --> 00:20:19,559 we be just going on the world Wide Web and 334 00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:25,640 just throwing out completely crackpot theories and naming names, telling 335 00:20:26,079 --> 00:20:29,039 saying oh, I think this person's involved, I think that person. 336 00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:34,319 I think it's outrageous and stupid and shortsighted, and it 337 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:37,160 is not helping this case move forward. 338 00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:40,960 Speaker 3: Agreed, And one of the discussions that you and I 339 00:20:41,079 --> 00:20:44,640 had when we first started covering the Colonial Parkway murders 340 00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:47,799 for our podcast, is how do we handle the name 341 00:20:47,839 --> 00:20:51,319 of suspects? Because we have people who have been named 342 00:20:51,319 --> 00:20:53,920 in the media, we have people who have not been 343 00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:56,079 named in the media. We have people who are the 344 00:20:56,640 --> 00:21:00,480 everybody knows they've been a person of interest, but it's 345 00:21:00,559 --> 00:21:03,519 never actually been reported. We really had to figure out 346 00:21:03,559 --> 00:21:06,000 how are we going to deal with this, and eventually 347 00:21:06,039 --> 00:21:08,720 we came up with something that we're fairly comfortable with, 348 00:21:08,799 --> 00:21:12,079 which is, if the media has widely reported the name 349 00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:15,079 of a person as a suspect, like for example, fred Otwell, 350 00:21:15,279 --> 00:21:18,160 we were okay with mentioning that, but there are others 351 00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:21,559 that we after much discussion with each other and determine, 352 00:21:21,599 --> 00:21:26,000 all right, this one we're not naming because they it 353 00:21:26,079 --> 00:21:29,759 may be like common knowledge on say a website, or 354 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:33,880 maybe just local hearsay, rumor gossip, but if they haven't 355 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:37,160 been named, we're not going to do it either. It's 356 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:39,920 a sticky wicket. It really truly is. If you're pardon 357 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:44,000 a vaguely British sounding expression there, it is hard to 358 00:21:44,079 --> 00:21:47,960 figure out what are the ethics involved when you are 359 00:21:48,039 --> 00:21:51,720 trying to do reporting. But what you're describing of people 360 00:21:51,799 --> 00:21:55,960 just randomly throwing out theories with no more basis in 361 00:21:56,039 --> 00:21:59,880 reality than we're sitting around and bsing and tossing the 362 00:22:00,319 --> 00:22:03,200 out just to see what sticks to the wall. It's 363 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:07,480 not responsible. As you mentioned, I think there's a possibility 364 00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:10,720 of very real danger when it comes time to go 365 00:22:10,759 --> 00:22:13,880 to trial to the process of getting justice for these 366 00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:17,119 young women. As I know I mentioned once before, I 367 00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:20,079 know the FBI is not entirely thrilled that you and 368 00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:22,680 I sit here and discuss this case. And they've mentioned 369 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:25,480 before the idea that if this ever goes to trial, 370 00:22:25,519 --> 00:22:28,880 we're going to have some problems. Well, buddy, arrest a 371 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:31,039 suspect first, and then we'll worry about trial. 372 00:22:31,279 --> 00:22:34,680 Speaker 2: Yeah. And I've pushed back hard against this and said, look, 373 00:22:34,839 --> 00:22:37,720 it's pretty clear that the FBI would like to muzzle 374 00:22:37,759 --> 00:22:40,599 me in the Colonial Parkway murders, and I'm not having it. 375 00:22:41,119 --> 00:22:44,880 They haven't even identified a suspect, at least publicly. There 376 00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:48,240 are lots of people whose names have been associated with 377 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:52,559 the Colonial Parkway murders, whose names I know. I have said, 378 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:55,960 sometimes with a bit of snark in my voice, that 379 00:22:56,359 --> 00:23:00,880 I feel whatever I feel like I I can name 380 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:03,880 most of the suspects. I'm not saying I know them all, 381 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:06,799 but I certainly know a fair number of them. We 382 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:11,279 have sometimes identified people by name, particularly if they're dead. 383 00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:13,960 It never occurred to me until I was listening to 384 00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:17,359 you a moment ago. There is one small advantage to 385 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:19,880 a case that's dragged on for thirty six years, which 386 00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:22,880 is that some of the suspects are dead. I never 387 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:25,240 thought of as an advantage because most of the time 388 00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:29,119 it's a frustration. You're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll 389 00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:36,640 be right back after this word from our sponsors. We're 390 00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:40,920 back here at mindover Murder. One of the disturbing developments 391 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:46,400 in the Delphi case is this decision by the judge 392 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:51,880 to recuse himself after some of these internet fools started 393 00:23:52,079 --> 00:23:57,200 restarching him and his family and his children and outing 394 00:23:57,279 --> 00:24:00,359 them on the internet. And I was shocked. Then. At 395 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:02,319 first I thought the judge was being a bit of 396 00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:04,640 a woss. But now I think I want to take 397 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:07,200 that back. It certainly never said that on the air 398 00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:10,640 of I thought the judge might have been overreacting, But 399 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:12,400 then I thought to myself, wait a minute, this guy's 400 00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:17,200 got school age kids. Yeah, and people are outing his children. 401 00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:19,240 What in the world does that have to do with 402 00:24:19,319 --> 00:24:23,039 this case? I would ask any of these fools, how 403 00:24:23,079 --> 00:24:26,799 do you think that's helping the community of Delphi, or 404 00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:32,200 the German or Williams family get anywhere close to justice. 405 00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:36,200 This judge has now stepped back from this case and 406 00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:40,839 the case has to be reassigned. They're actually delaying justice, 407 00:24:41,039 --> 00:24:45,200 and why they're doing these incredibly stupid and damaging things 408 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:48,359 is beyond me. That is as far away from engaged 409 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:53,440 with empathy as I could possibly believe. I'm so shocked 410 00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:56,880 that people are being this stupid and so willing to 411 00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:03,359 damage the successful prosecution of this case. If this man, 412 00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:08,519 the current suspect, can't yet a fair trial, this could 413 00:25:08,599 --> 00:25:12,440 end up in some sort of mistrial. This is insane 414 00:25:12,839 --> 00:25:16,920 and I am supportive of the families in all of 415 00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:22,759 these examples. Sarah Attorney's sister's case, Her father, Michael Turney, 416 00:25:22,839 --> 00:25:26,279 has been charged in her stepsister Alissa's two thousand and 417 00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:28,880 one murder, and that case is going to trial I 418 00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:31,319 think later on this year. It was delayed due to 419 00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:34,359 COVID and other issues. She's talked about it on her 420 00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:38,960 Voices for Justice podcast. Believe that trial is now coming 421 00:25:39,039 --> 00:25:42,200 up later on this year. If I'm not mistaken the 422 00:25:42,559 --> 00:25:46,079 idea that people are going to be just inquisitive to 423 00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:49,279 the point where they're starting to ask questions that we 424 00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:52,519 don't really even deserve answers to it. I don't need 425 00:25:52,559 --> 00:25:56,480 to know anything about the personal life of the judge 426 00:25:56,720 --> 00:26:00,240 and his wife and kids in the Delphi case, Are 427 00:26:00,279 --> 00:26:04,200 you kidding? How is that important or valuable or even 428 00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:08,720 public knowledge? And they've scared the but Jesus out of 429 00:26:08,759 --> 00:26:13,079 this poor judge. And there's one clerk in this relatively 430 00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:16,119 small town of Delphi, and they were supposed to be 431 00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:20,319 handling this case. At first, the judge expressed concern about 432 00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:24,839 the safety of himself and his very small staff. Ultimately 433 00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:28,359 he took himself out of the case and recused himself. 434 00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:31,440 That is actually damaging this case. 435 00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:34,519 Speaker 3: And you do have to wonder what is it the 436 00:26:34,599 --> 00:26:38,279 bottom of that? Is it the sense of I want 437 00:26:38,279 --> 00:26:40,640 to be involved in this case. I want to be 438 00:26:41,079 --> 00:26:44,359 breaking news. I want to be giving something that hasn't 439 00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:48,160 been revealed before. If the sense of oh, I want 440 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:52,279 to share information like a journalist would is what's driving 441 00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:56,440 some of this journalists have a working set of ethics 442 00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:59,720 and morals that they have to use as part of 443 00:26:59,799 --> 00:27:02,920 their reporting. And part of that is you don't go 444 00:27:03,079 --> 00:27:07,720 about revealing names and personal information of people who are 445 00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:11,359 related to the case or even tangentially related to the case. 446 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:15,200 You're not, as you mentioned before, you're not getting anywhere 447 00:27:15,839 --> 00:27:19,559 by scaring off any person who is even remotely related 448 00:27:19,599 --> 00:27:23,680 to this case. You're not helping. What information exactly do 449 00:27:23,799 --> 00:27:28,319 you think you're providing by sharing school and the address 450 00:27:28,519 --> 00:27:31,880 of children belonging to the judge? Why would you do that? 451 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:34,720 You need to scare the heck out of a child just 452 00:27:34,759 --> 00:27:38,440 because their dad happens to be working on this high 453 00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:40,039 profile case. Why would you do that? 454 00:27:40,759 --> 00:27:44,720 Speaker 2: They've lost a qualified judge who felt like he had 455 00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:47,480 to step back and refuse himself. And at the same time, 456 00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:51,519 another podcaster a few months back took it upon themselves 457 00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:57,559 to leak documents related to the keik Incline charges. And 458 00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:03,559 I'm not saying the Line is necessarily an upstanding citizen, 459 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:06,880 But even though I might personally think he's a sleeves 460 00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:12,079 bag and may be involved in child porn and pursuing 461 00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:15,200 sex with underaged girls and a lot of illegal and 462 00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:20,319 highly distasteful stuff. He's still entitled to be treated as 463 00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:24,559 innocent until proven guilty. To put those documents out which 464 00:28:24,559 --> 00:28:28,920 were briefly available on an unsecured part of a law 465 00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:33,000 enforcement website, which was a mistake and was corrected, the 466 00:28:33,319 --> 00:28:36,599 podcasters didn't care. They put it all out there and 467 00:28:36,799 --> 00:28:38,960 ended up being all over the media, which is why 468 00:28:39,119 --> 00:28:41,880 I know about it. And the truth is, I actually 469 00:28:42,039 --> 00:28:44,640 don't need to know that stuff, but it's too late now. 470 00:28:44,759 --> 00:28:47,039 You can't put that genie back in the bottle or 471 00:28:47,039 --> 00:28:49,880 whatever crazy lame expression I want to come up with here, 472 00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:55,599 But these things are not helping. Actually, this bizarre compulsion 473 00:28:55,759 --> 00:28:59,599 to research things that we actually don't need to know, 474 00:29:00,359 --> 00:29:04,759 I will admit I am intensely curious about this case. 475 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:10,079 I want to see justice for Libby and Abbey. But 476 00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:14,359 remember they're gone now, those two little girls, and that's 477 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:17,960 really what they were, are dead. We now need to 478 00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:23,000 be thinking about the families. Yes, and we've met their families, 479 00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:28,119 who are wonderful people. They deserve better than this. And 480 00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:32,160 as curious as I might be, and as interested as 481 00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:34,640 I think both of us are in seeing this case 482 00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:38,319 move forward, I'm seeing things and hearing things in the 483 00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:41,359 last few months in this case that I think are 484 00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:46,319 incredibly disturbing. I know anyone can start a podcast, but 485 00:29:46,599 --> 00:29:50,799 think you've got to keep your heart engaged while you're 486 00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:54,319 looking for information. Like you said at the top of 487 00:29:54,359 --> 00:29:57,960 this podcast, we all have to remember, these are real people. 488 00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:03,319 This isn't some fictional story. This isn't Mary Shelley's Frankenstein. 489 00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:07,680 This is somebody's in this case, the three people we 490 00:30:07,799 --> 00:30:11,799 just talked about, this is their sister. These three amazing women, 491 00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:16,759 Sarah Turney, Julie Murray, and Kelsey Germyn Cybert. And I've 492 00:30:16,799 --> 00:30:18,799 met two of the three of them. I'm so sorry 493 00:30:18,839 --> 00:30:22,640 I missed meeting Julie at Crime Con because I think 494 00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:26,599 she's been incredibly impressive. But these amazing women, they all 495 00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:31,559 lost their sisters. Their advocacy was forced on them, which 496 00:30:31,759 --> 00:30:34,240 in a way was forced on you and me because 497 00:30:34,279 --> 00:30:38,960 of our family and personal connections to crime victims. And 498 00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:41,519 we've actually found as we've met a lot of people 499 00:30:41,559 --> 00:30:43,960 in the true crime space, not everybody, but a lot 500 00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:46,839 of people who do this kind of work got into 501 00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:51,559 it because they were touched by this type of true crime. Yeah, 502 00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:55,640 if you can keep your sense of empathy and heart. 503 00:30:55,799 --> 00:31:00,279 I think that's incredibly important and is sometimes missing one 504 00:31:00,359 --> 00:31:01,039 hundred percent. 505 00:31:01,319 --> 00:31:05,119 Speaker 3: And Laura Richards had posted something a couple of weeks 506 00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:09,000 back that really kicked off for me, this sense of okay, 507 00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:13,720 popular culture has taken this interest in true crime, and 508 00:31:13,759 --> 00:31:16,960 they dragged it in the wrong direction in some senses. 509 00:31:18,039 --> 00:31:21,839 She had posted a picture of a sweatshirt that was 510 00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:26,720 available on Etsy that she found to be particularly insensitive 511 00:31:27,079 --> 00:31:30,119 and quite frankly disgusting, And I agree with her one 512 00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:33,240 hundred and ten percent. It is your basic, cute little 513 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:35,960 hoodie that you can wear for the fall, like a 514 00:31:36,039 --> 00:31:38,960 nice color. It was like a rust colored shade, and 515 00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:43,920 in white cursive script it said choke me like Bundy, 516 00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:50,279 eat me like Domer. And that, quite frankly, is disgusting. 517 00:31:51,039 --> 00:31:54,480 Speaker 2: And if somebody thinks that somehow that T shirt, hoodie, 518 00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:59,319 whatever is edgy and that makes them a true crime fan, 519 00:31:59,519 --> 00:32:02,079 I would say, you know something, I think it makes 520 00:32:02,079 --> 00:32:09,599 you a borderline ghoul. It's just disgusting. The glorification of 521 00:32:10,079 --> 00:32:15,960 serial killers is not hip and cool. It's disgusting that 522 00:32:16,079 --> 00:32:19,920 I hope that no one else goes through the kind 523 00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:24,160 of experience that people that we know and my family 524 00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:28,799 have been through. I wouldn't wish that on anyone. No, 525 00:32:29,519 --> 00:32:34,160 it's very hard not to climb off that soapbox when 526 00:32:34,279 --> 00:32:37,440 you see things like that. And this is where Laura 527 00:32:37,559 --> 00:32:42,119 Richards is absolutely right and your reaction is very natural. 528 00:32:42,839 --> 00:32:45,440 You just end up shaking your head like what are 529 00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:46,119 you thinking? 530 00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:50,720 Speaker 3: And even things like friends of a friend sent me 531 00:32:50,759 --> 00:32:55,400 a picture on Facebook of a sweatshirt that said murder 532 00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:57,799 shows and comfy clothes, And there's nothing wrong with that 533 00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:01,640 except for the fact that there's blood spatter all over it. 534 00:33:01,759 --> 00:33:03,200 Speaker 2: That part I don't get. 535 00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:06,599 Speaker 3: Yeah, I could wear murder shows and comfy clothes, but 536 00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:09,680 I will not wear it because it's got blood spatter 537 00:33:09,759 --> 00:33:12,680 on it. You and I have the same crime scene photos. 538 00:33:12,839 --> 00:33:16,880 I'm not interested in walking around being evocative of a 539 00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:18,000 crime scene. 540 00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:22,319 Speaker 2: Photo at the same time. The murder shows and company clothes, 541 00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:25,240 I get it. Or our friend Cheryl McCollum and they 542 00:33:25,279 --> 00:33:28,160 talk about a wine in crime where they have their 543 00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:32,160 get togethers, where there's actually a lot of amazing people, 544 00:33:32,359 --> 00:33:36,640 a lot of true crime experts, forensics experts, investigators, all 545 00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:38,880 sorts of amazing people. So there's a lot to be 546 00:33:39,119 --> 00:33:42,319 learned and inspired by when you attend something like that. 547 00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:44,799 I don't have a problem with that. And look, do 548 00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:48,400 I watch crime shows? Yeah, absolutely, yeah, both of us do. 549 00:33:48,599 --> 00:33:51,680 And my partner Pamela, who's not anywhere near as into 550 00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:54,720 this as you and I are, but even she'll say, oh, 551 00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:57,680 let's watch one. She likes the ones where there's a 552 00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:01,279 advancement of the case or maybe a conviction or a 553 00:34:01,319 --> 00:34:03,920 suspect is an amy, that sort of thing, And don't. 554 00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:07,039 Speaker 3: We all Yeah, you and I'll both watch Unsolved Mysteries. 555 00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:10,199 I like the most recent season of Unsolved Mysteries. Yeah, 556 00:34:10,519 --> 00:34:12,440 haven't sound doing to watch it yet, but I will. 557 00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:16,480 Speaker 2: Those are really good, and I'm not troubled by the 558 00:34:16,519 --> 00:34:19,320 ones that are left as a question mark at the 559 00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:22,039 end of the show, but they ask some interesting questions. 560 00:34:22,559 --> 00:34:25,639 I like the ones too that maybe do identify a 561 00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:29,679 suspect then indicate that someone is going to trial or whatever. Again, 562 00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:34,920 innocent until proven guilty. I think Sarah, Juliet and Kelsey 563 00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:38,039 were emphasizing at Crime Con there has to be a 564 00:34:38,079 --> 00:34:42,000 way to cover these cases and tell these stories. And 565 00:34:42,039 --> 00:34:47,239 remember you're telling the victims story, yes, exactly. There has 566 00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:48,840 to be a way to do that in a way 567 00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:54,320 that is sympathetic to the victims and their survivors. And 568 00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:58,719 this is where Ryan Murphy's production team got some pretty 569 00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:03,960 serious criticism for the recent Dahmer series because they reenacted 570 00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:08,679 some very difficult scenes, including the murders, but then also 571 00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:13,159 some courtroom scenes where family members were given an opportunity 572 00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:17,519 as part of the judicial process to express themselves and 573 00:35:17,559 --> 00:35:21,360 their loss, and they tapped into some real anger and emotion, 574 00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:24,639 which I completely understand. I've never had anybody to focus 575 00:35:24,679 --> 00:35:27,000 on in the Colonial Parkray murders. I hoped had that 576 00:35:27,079 --> 00:35:31,159 opportunity at some point, but you can understand how someone 577 00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:34,679 would feel the way they feel having lost their loved one. 578 00:35:35,519 --> 00:35:39,519 Some of those people made the point that seeing that reenacted, 579 00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:43,119 as you mentioned a moment ago by actors, it's like 580 00:35:43,199 --> 00:35:47,199 reliving it all over again. No one contacted them and 581 00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:49,360 told them that was going to be part of the series, 582 00:35:49,639 --> 00:35:54,320 and Ryan Murphy made some incredibly lame comment about we 583 00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:59,280 tried to reach the families. I'm sorry. I've actually found 584 00:36:00,039 --> 00:36:01,679 if we put in a little bit of time, we've 585 00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:04,920 been able to pretty much find anybody unless someone has 586 00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:09,360 moved off the grid like Ted Kaczynski. For the most part, 587 00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:12,559 you can find them if you want to. I'm not 588 00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:16,280 buying that. Ryan Murphy with his staff and the money 589 00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:20,000 behind those productions, and they made a lot of money 590 00:36:20,119 --> 00:36:20,719 with Domrich. 591 00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:21,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, they did big hit. 592 00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:24,480 Speaker 2: They actually said it's the biggest hit he's ever had. 593 00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:28,119 You can't tell me that they couldn't find those people 594 00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:31,480 to let them know what they were working on and 595 00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:35,039 to at least get their input. Know that these stories, 596 00:36:35,079 --> 00:36:38,639 to some extent are public because they're based on trials 597 00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:42,440 and public documents. So it's not like you need their permission. 598 00:36:42,639 --> 00:36:46,079 It's not like The New York Times needs my permission 599 00:36:46,119 --> 00:36:49,079 to write an article about the Colonial Parkway murders. They 600 00:36:49,119 --> 00:36:52,280 have and I'm hopefully they will again. I'm not always 601 00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:56,760 one hundred percent happy with how things are portrayed or whatever, 602 00:36:56,880 --> 00:37:02,239 but I think some consideration for victim families is really important, 603 00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:04,480 and I think that's part of what the Engage with 604 00:37:04,599 --> 00:37:06,760 Empathy campaign is all about. 605 00:37:07,039 --> 00:37:10,440 Speaker 3: I agree. And I remember when they were filming Lovers 606 00:37:10,519 --> 00:37:13,719 Lane Murders here and you and I were both on set, 607 00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:17,920 and I remember the day that they brought on the 608 00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:22,920 actress playing Kathy in the reenactments, and I was concerned 609 00:37:23,199 --> 00:37:25,639 that day about whether or not you were going to 610 00:37:25,679 --> 00:37:28,440 be okay, And of course you were going to be okay. 611 00:37:28,559 --> 00:37:32,000 You're Bill Thomas, You're virtually freaking and destructible. But it 612 00:37:32,079 --> 00:37:34,199 was really a question for me of Okay, are you 613 00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:36,679 going to be able to handle watching this woman who 614 00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:39,440 looks like your sister? Are you going to be able 615 00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:43,519 to watch her essentially reenact Kathy's murderer? And I wasn't 616 00:37:43,559 --> 00:37:46,480 thrilled that they were choosing to do reenactments for that. 617 00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:49,840 I really wasn't. I remember, I couldn't stay for that 618 00:37:50,159 --> 00:37:52,880 part of the shoot because I had grading in papers 619 00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:54,559 and various other things I needed to do, so I 620 00:37:54,639 --> 00:37:57,239 wasn't able to stick around. But I remember leaving and 621 00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:01,800 being very concerned, like, is this something that's going to 622 00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:03,719 shake you up badly? Or are you going to be 623 00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:05,679 able to take it in stride? And being here you 624 00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:06,880 took it in stride. I know you. 625 00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:10,280 Speaker 2: It was difficult, though. Part of the role of consulting 626 00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:14,159 producer Justin is you're listening very carefully. Now, Remember you're 627 00:38:14,199 --> 00:38:16,920 going to shoot a ton of video that's never going 628 00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:19,320 to end up in the series, because that's just the 629 00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:23,119 nature of television. Part of the role of the consulting 630 00:38:23,159 --> 00:38:25,639 producers is to help make sure that they don't make 631 00:38:25,679 --> 00:38:28,920 any mistakes, any errors of fact. So a lot of 632 00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:33,320 times I'd be off camera, wearing headphones, listening very carefully 633 00:38:33,679 --> 00:38:36,920 to the conversation. And it's not one hundred percent scripted, 634 00:38:37,199 --> 00:38:40,159 so there's a little bit of improv going on there. 635 00:38:40,199 --> 00:38:42,519 So it's not like every word is on a telepropter, 636 00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:46,360 but they're trying to tell the story. If it's an 637 00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:50,880 expert like a Jim Clemente describing how a well prepared 638 00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:56,880 aggressive offender might approach a couple, or it's them re enacting. 639 00:38:57,519 --> 00:39:00,800 Not my favorite either. But I remember at se points 640 00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:05,760 that night when they were concentrating on telling the story 641 00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:08,559 of Kathy and Becky's murder, and they brought in a 642 00:39:08,599 --> 00:39:13,039 small white car that looked like Kathy's car. Yeah, we're 643 00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:15,960 next to the river and it's designed to look like 644 00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:19,760 that parking area. They asked me several times, are you okay? 645 00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:22,599 Are you okay? Are you okay? And I appreciated them 646 00:39:22,639 --> 00:39:26,159 asking and it was difficult, and it was very weird 647 00:39:26,199 --> 00:39:29,440 when I met the actress and all of the young 648 00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:32,159 actors that were playing the parts. There were you know, 649 00:39:32,199 --> 00:39:36,639 there was a young woman playing Kathy Becky. They actually 650 00:39:37,079 --> 00:39:40,639 set it up with one offender and two offenders, because 651 00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:43,519 you know, there were different theories about whether there were 652 00:39:43,599 --> 00:39:45,840 one offender or two offenders there, so you had to 653 00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:49,440 have four actors, two women, two men. And I remember 654 00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:52,400 thinking how much this woman looked like Kathy, and of 655 00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:54,639 course she was dressed like Kathy was that night and 656 00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:57,639 had her hairstyled in the same way. And it was 657 00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:01,159 really weird, and it was sometimes a different cult, and 658 00:40:01,199 --> 00:40:03,400 there were a couple of times when I thought, I'm 659 00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:05,159 not going to watch this, I'm not going to listen 660 00:40:05,199 --> 00:40:07,639 to this. A lot of that didn't end up in 661 00:40:07,679 --> 00:40:11,679 the show, but I was there when they were getting 662 00:40:11,719 --> 00:40:14,199 the shots they needed in the way that they felt 663 00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:16,960 would help tell the story. And it's really. 664 00:40:16,679 --> 00:40:20,880 Speaker 3: Difficult for all that as a genre, we are trying 665 00:40:21,079 --> 00:40:26,320 to make sure that the victim stories are told appropriately, 666 00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:30,119 that the families have a voice, that justice is done. 667 00:40:31,039 --> 00:40:35,679 There is still so much work left to be done 668 00:40:36,119 --> 00:40:39,079 on everybody's part, and it's not just the role of 669 00:40:39,159 --> 00:40:43,679 journalists or podcasters or production companies or whatever. It takes 670 00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:47,679 all of us to be aware and empathetic of the 671 00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:53,440 people who have lived with this, whether it's a surviving victim, 672 00:40:53,639 --> 00:40:57,519 or family members or investigators who have worked to this case, 673 00:40:57,679 --> 00:41:01,599 or they have a very intense emotional attachment. It's really 674 00:41:01,639 --> 00:41:06,760 important as content creators that we be mindful of all 675 00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:11,199 of these people and try to, as Kelsey and Sarah 676 00:41:11,239 --> 00:41:15,119 and Julie have said, engage with empathy. And so that 677 00:41:15,159 --> 00:41:19,519 means being mindful of these things. It means not giving 678 00:41:19,599 --> 00:41:25,480 into salacious speculation that may be hurtful to friends or family, 679 00:41:25,559 --> 00:41:28,599 surviving victims, or might hurt the legal process. And it 680 00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:31,920 means maybe just being a little more mindful about what 681 00:41:32,039 --> 00:41:34,639 you're buying. If you happen to go on Etsy and 682 00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:37,840 see a sweatshirt that may seem funny in the moment, 683 00:41:38,119 --> 00:41:40,800 but honestly, would you want to go up to Kathy 684 00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:45,920 Kleiner wearing that sweatshirt she survived Ted Bundy. I would 685 00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:49,320 hate to see her face if anyone ever walked over 686 00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:53,760 to her wearing a sweatshirt that glorified Ted Bundy. Bill, 687 00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:56,920 any final thoughts for you about engage with empathy. I 688 00:41:57,000 --> 00:41:59,679 know that this is something that is very close to 689 00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:02,039 both of us, but clearly you have a lot of 690 00:42:02,039 --> 00:42:04,039 feelings on the subject. As well, how would you like 691 00:42:04,079 --> 00:42:05,039 to close out? 692 00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:09,320 Speaker 2: I think the idea of engage with empathy is beautifully phrased. 693 00:42:09,519 --> 00:42:12,079 I think it's something that all of us should be 694 00:42:12,199 --> 00:42:14,679 aspiring to. And when I say all of us, those 695 00:42:14,679 --> 00:42:17,880 of us that are producing content and those of us 696 00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:24,599 that are enjoying content, listening and learning and hopefully growing 697 00:42:24,679 --> 00:42:28,719 and understanding of what some of these victims have been through. 698 00:42:29,679 --> 00:42:32,400 Speaker 3: And I think that also means not being afraid to 699 00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:36,400 call out people who are behaving badly and tell them 700 00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:39,960 this is not the appropriate way to engage with empathy. 701 00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:41,880 Speaker 2: I think that works for me. 702 00:42:42,639 --> 00:42:44,599 Speaker 3: Well, that is going to do it for this episode 703 00:42:44,639 --> 00:42:47,800 of mind Over Murder. Thank you so much for listening. 704 00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:49,519 We'll see you next time. 705 00:42:58,679 --> 00:43:02,159 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and 706 00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:03,719 Another Dog Productions. 707 00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:07,599 Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 708 00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:10,360 Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. 709 00:43:11,039 --> 00:43:13,079 Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud. 710 00:43:13,599 --> 00:43:17,519 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media. 711 00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:21,440 Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 712 00:43:21,639 --> 00:43:24,239 Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway 713 00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:26,119 Murders on Facebook. 714 00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:28,960 Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at 715 00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:31,280 Bill Thomas. Five six Thank 716 00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:34,159 Speaker 1: You for listening to Mind Over Murder.