WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.240 --> 00:00:05.200 Ola the gates. Dear Rich, how are you already? 2 00:00:05.280 --> 00:00:07.919 Irish people are helping to shape the EU of the future. 3 00:00:08.480 --> 00:00:11.439 Now it's your turn. The EU is currently recruiting for 4 00:00:11.519 --> 00:00:14.679 roles across lots of exciting areas. If you're an Irish 5 00:00:14.720 --> 00:00:17.800 citizen with a degree and the second EU language which 6 00:00:17.839 --> 00:00:20.679 includes Irish, that could be a role for you. Bring 7 00:00:20.719 --> 00:00:24.000 a little more Ireland to the EU. Find out how 8 00:00:24.000 --> 00:00:27.120 to apply at Ireland dot e forward slash EU Jobs 9 00:00:27.719 --> 00:00:29.519 brought to you by the Government of Ireland. 10 00:00:30.600 --> 00:00:33.679 But police don't think Kevin's death what's an accident? 11 00:00:34.320 --> 00:00:38.200 In the new Sky original crime drama three years. 12 00:00:37.960 --> 00:00:41.640 Apart, Kevin died and they say, starring Kelly Riley and 13 00:00:41.719 --> 00:00:44.359 Race Spawn, if we find anything that could link the cases, 14 00:00:44.560 --> 00:00:46.679 then we'll link them. We don't have time. 15 00:00:46.960 --> 00:00:48.600 Evidence has already been washed away. 16 00:00:48.799 --> 00:00:50.799 No secrets are safe from the storm. 17 00:00:50.880 --> 00:00:51.920 I need to find out. 18 00:00:51.719 --> 00:00:55.119 What watch under Soul to Marsh, available now on Sky 19 00:00:55.439 --> 00:00:57.359 eighteen plus requires a Sky TV subscription. 20 00:00:57.399 --> 00:00:59.320 Content available from thirtieth of January twenty twenty six. 21 00:00:59.359 --> 00:01:00.200 Further terms of place. 22 00:01:02.320 --> 00:01:05.959 Meaning a live man like this man letting butterfly, flapping 23 00:01:06.040 --> 00:01:07.560 his wing, big down in the forest. 24 00:01:07.599 --> 00:01:08.959 Man it gonna cause the tree. 25 00:01:08.760 --> 00:01:11.040 Fall letting five thousand miles away. 26 00:01:11.079 --> 00:01:12.319 Man, nobody seen it. 27 00:01:12.400 --> 00:01:18.680 Nobody else, you know, mean. 28 00:01:18.680 --> 00:01:22.879 No man like you followed a little story. 29 00:01:22.120 --> 00:01:25.519 And you got backed like that, win Man got. 30 00:01:25.319 --> 00:01:26.400 Back to day on the panel. 31 00:01:26.519 --> 00:01:36.799 Man Man, you don't don't matter many, all right, bug 32 00:01:36.840 --> 00:01:38.840 Man Hagel, Welcome to the Jay Burdon Show. How you doing? 33 00:01:40.280 --> 00:01:41.480 Hi, glad to be here. 34 00:01:43.359 --> 00:01:46.239 Yeah, so we got connected. We have some some mutuals 35 00:01:46.280 --> 00:01:49.359 on Twitter, and so, you know, I'm familiar with who 36 00:01:49.359 --> 00:01:50.920 you are and what you do, but some of my 37 00:01:51.000 --> 00:01:53.079 audience might not be. So what do you do on 38 00:01:53.120 --> 00:01:53.640 the internet? 39 00:01:55.159 --> 00:02:00.239 Yeah, So I started my account of the long and 40 00:02:00.280 --> 00:02:03.840 short of it is. I was active on Reddit. I 41 00:02:03.879 --> 00:02:06.640 wasn't really active anywhere else. I got permanently banned from Reddit, 42 00:02:06.719 --> 00:02:09.159 and so I just started posting on Twitter. I was 43 00:02:09.199 --> 00:02:13.520 in law school. I was really frustrated with the environment 44 00:02:13.560 --> 00:02:18.439 in law school. It was it was obviously very asymmetric 45 00:02:18.560 --> 00:02:23.560 in terms of the opinions of the professor the students 46 00:02:24.120 --> 00:02:27.960 in general, and so I kind of used Twitter as 47 00:02:28.000 --> 00:02:32.560 my outlet to kind of lamit the cultural environment as 48 00:02:32.599 --> 00:02:37.280 well as the political environment. On Twitter, I have a 49 00:02:37.439 --> 00:02:41.159 mix of topics. I cover. I used to cover a 50 00:02:41.159 --> 00:02:44.639 lot more of kind of esoteric history. I covered a 51 00:02:44.680 --> 00:02:49.159 lot more about Hegel, kind of the hermetic influences on 52 00:02:49.199 --> 00:02:57.199 the Protestant Reformation, some stuff about Kabbola, how Kabla had 53 00:02:57.280 --> 00:03:02.680 influenced certain Protestant schism movements, the Moravians and the Atabaptists. 54 00:03:03.680 --> 00:03:05.840 But nowadays I'm really busy, So I just I just 55 00:03:05.960 --> 00:03:10.360 kind of do some like a surface level of political commentary. 56 00:03:10.400 --> 00:03:11.960 And that's kind of the long and short of it. 57 00:03:14.280 --> 00:03:19.479 Yeah, it's interesting because if you talk to older people, 58 00:03:19.879 --> 00:03:24.800 right boomers will just use that that slur. There's you know, 59 00:03:24.840 --> 00:03:28.439 this idea that, oh, you know, once these these college kids, 60 00:03:28.719 --> 00:03:30.800 you know, as broadly defined as that term is, hit 61 00:03:30.840 --> 00:03:34.879 the real world, then they'll realize right there, their parents 62 00:03:34.919 --> 00:03:39.240 were right all along. And I didn't get anything after 63 00:03:39.360 --> 00:03:43.560 my undergrad degree. I burnt out on education for you know, 64 00:03:43.599 --> 00:03:48.000 any number of reasons. But it's sort of interesting that 65 00:03:48.000 --> 00:03:50.520 that you know, idea of you know, getting in the 66 00:03:50.560 --> 00:03:55.280 real world, you know, quote unquote uh really never seems 67 00:03:55.360 --> 00:04:00.280 to pan out, to be perfectly honest, and that track 68 00:04:00.319 --> 00:04:03.240 of education, you know, from undergrad to your graduate degree 69 00:04:03.280 --> 00:04:06.879 post grad all that it's like this this treadmill to 70 00:04:06.879 --> 00:04:10.919 make you more and more of an obnoxious progressive hall monitor. 71 00:04:11.280 --> 00:04:14.120 You know, it's kind of like chasing gold stars. And 72 00:04:14.639 --> 00:04:17.480 so you mentioned, of course, right that you know law 73 00:04:17.480 --> 00:04:22.079 school was non representative, right, it was very much one opinion. 74 00:04:22.759 --> 00:04:25.199 So what was it like being a sort of a 75 00:04:25.240 --> 00:04:27.360 dissident in that in that space, if you will. 76 00:04:28.000 --> 00:04:32.279 Yeah, So I I went to a Bury. My my 77 00:04:32.360 --> 00:04:35.160 undergrad degree is in biochemistry, and I also I did 78 00:04:35.199 --> 00:04:39.920 a dual jd and masters as a little background, my 79 00:04:40.000 --> 00:04:43.920 undergrad my undergrad, I was a bit more insulated despite 80 00:04:43.959 --> 00:04:48.439 going to a more liberal undergraduate program because of the 81 00:04:48.480 --> 00:04:52.360 fact that I was in STEM and so I was 82 00:04:52.519 --> 00:04:57.319 less I was less around the more kind of let's say, 83 00:04:57.480 --> 00:05:01.959 radical cohorts in my undergrad but I was still exposed 84 00:05:01.959 --> 00:05:04.920 to it here and there. I won't go into the details. 85 00:05:04.920 --> 00:05:07.639 So there's a couple of big scandals with uh, like 86 00:05:08.079 --> 00:05:11.439 people got suspended from the sports teams for let's say, 87 00:05:12.720 --> 00:05:17.759 throwing tortillas at a date auction and things like that. 88 00:05:17.879 --> 00:05:21.079 I thought they were outrageous, but I kind of kept 89 00:05:21.160 --> 00:05:23.560 more to myself. It like, it wasn't really in my 90 00:05:23.639 --> 00:05:25.560 face because of the program I was in so I 91 00:05:25.680 --> 00:05:27.839 was like, you know, I'm just want to get this 92 00:05:27.879 --> 00:05:31.480 over with. And then law school, it was it was 93 00:05:31.839 --> 00:05:38.480 more unavoidable because this stuff was integral to the coursework itself. 94 00:05:39.079 --> 00:05:42.560 Like in criminal law, you're talking about different types, different 95 00:05:42.639 --> 00:05:47.399 theories for justice, like you have retributive justice, you have 96 00:05:47.480 --> 00:05:51.399 rehabilitative justice, and then you have punitive justice. And there 97 00:05:51.480 --> 00:05:55.439 was obviously a clear preference among U with that particular professor, 98 00:05:56.079 --> 00:05:58.959 like for rehabilitative justice. And for those who don't know, 99 00:05:59.399 --> 00:06:04.160 that's basically where the point of incarceration is rehabilitation of 100 00:06:04.160 --> 00:06:09.160 criminals as opposed to protecting the public from them. And 101 00:06:10.040 --> 00:06:12.879 a lot of our problems in criminal justice dim from 102 00:06:12.920 --> 00:06:16.560 the back of the fact that the rehabilitative justice school 103 00:06:16.879 --> 00:06:21.399 is kind of the overarching trend we have been consistently 104 00:06:21.439 --> 00:06:27.680 heading to really since the night late night, And really 105 00:06:28.720 --> 00:06:33.000 I was being successively radicalized in the right wing direction, 106 00:06:33.600 --> 00:06:36.319 and it was really something that happened to me after 107 00:06:36.360 --> 00:06:40.720 I graduated law school and moved to Houston for a 108 00:06:40.839 --> 00:06:45.920 job that really kind of like just blew the whole 109 00:06:45.920 --> 00:06:48.920 thing up my face, because, like I was, I had 110 00:06:48.920 --> 00:06:51.199 been in Houston for less than a week starting my 111 00:06:51.279 --> 00:06:55.839 new job, and I got burglarized about four days after 112 00:06:55.920 --> 00:06:58.839 I moved there at two am, and it was just 113 00:06:58.959 --> 00:07:01.759 like I just started kind of looking into like the 114 00:07:01.759 --> 00:07:05.160 political environment of the city of Houston, and it was 115 00:07:05.319 --> 00:07:08.480 just kind of one of the first times where like 116 00:07:08.720 --> 00:07:12.800 my politics kind of or like the opposition to my 117 00:07:13.120 --> 00:07:18.959 politics viscerally interacted with me. And I was just like, 118 00:07:20.279 --> 00:07:23.480 this is not working. Like I'm a young new grad 119 00:07:23.680 --> 00:07:26.920 and I'm being I'm just having all these things like 120 00:07:26.959 --> 00:07:28.800 throw it in my face by no fault to my own. 121 00:07:28.959 --> 00:07:32.759 And I talked to like Boom or family members, and 122 00:07:32.800 --> 00:07:35.439 they just kind of treat it as like the cost 123 00:07:35.480 --> 00:07:39.199 of doing business, like the cost of existing. And I 124 00:07:39.240 --> 00:07:41.720 was like, why why are we accepting this? Like why 125 00:07:42.000 --> 00:07:44.199 why is this something that we are going to put 126 00:07:44.279 --> 00:07:46.439 up with as a society that like like kind of 127 00:07:46.519 --> 00:07:48.319 people who go out of their way to be lawbiding, 128 00:07:48.399 --> 00:07:54.759 productive citizens are just effectively at the whims of any 129 00:07:54.800 --> 00:07:58.199 petty criminal that should choose to victimize them. It was 130 00:07:58.360 --> 00:08:01.120 just an incoherent frame of mind. 131 00:08:03.439 --> 00:08:05.560 Yeah, and I'm glad that you brought up the fact that, 132 00:08:06.000 --> 00:08:10.160 in the example of a word, I have a hard 133 00:08:10.199 --> 00:08:14.040 time saying justice. One of the things that I find 134 00:08:14.040 --> 00:08:17.639 incredibly frustrating in an academic setting with many of these 135 00:08:17.639 --> 00:08:20.240 people is that they don't know their own history. They 136 00:08:20.279 --> 00:08:22.839 assume that they are at the cutting edge of a 137 00:08:22.879 --> 00:08:26.720 new idea, right Whereas if you understand it, and you know, 138 00:08:26.759 --> 00:08:29.839 we're antribute to justice, thank you, I finally got it out. 139 00:08:29.839 --> 00:08:33.240 There is one of kind of this cluster of different 140 00:08:33.320 --> 00:08:37.519 ideas that have effectively been in academia since the late 141 00:08:37.559 --> 00:08:42.360 fifties to early sixties. And there's not a new experiment, right, 142 00:08:42.399 --> 00:08:45.559 this is this that we have tried this before with 143 00:08:45.840 --> 00:08:49.840 predictable results, and you know, look like, of course it 144 00:08:49.879 --> 00:08:53.600 produces bad results. You get broken into and you know, 145 00:08:53.600 --> 00:08:57.879 your apartment in Houston. But similarly, it just kind of 146 00:08:58.360 --> 00:09:03.320 bothers me that by alling to power, they get to 147 00:09:03.360 --> 00:09:06.080 sort of play pretend as radicals. Right. Play pretend is 148 00:09:06.080 --> 00:09:08.360 if they've come up with this great new idea that 149 00:09:09.320 --> 00:09:11.879 was old by the time my grandparents were going through school. 150 00:09:12.360 --> 00:09:14.919 It's you know, not the primary objection to it, but 151 00:09:15.000 --> 00:09:16.679 very much something that kind of rubs me the wrong way, 152 00:09:16.679 --> 00:09:17.720 if you see what I'm getting at. 153 00:09:18.519 --> 00:09:23.679 Yeah, and I think part of it is liberalism has 154 00:09:23.679 --> 00:09:27.240 a degree of staying power and I believe it's because 155 00:09:27.279 --> 00:09:31.759 it is a comforting idea, especially like just Anglo Saxons 156 00:09:31.759 --> 00:09:37.919 in general, but especially Anglo Saxon's post twentieth century kind 157 00:09:37.919 --> 00:09:40.879 of have built their I don't want to say have 158 00:09:40.960 --> 00:09:45.559 created new like American ethogenesis, especially postththr they kind of 159 00:09:45.679 --> 00:09:51.039 have where American culture espeal, specifically American Anglo Saxon culture 160 00:09:51.720 --> 00:09:58.159 is one of like overcoming basically the constraints of the material, 161 00:09:58.360 --> 00:10:00.919 and they do that through this like having this like 162 00:10:01.000 --> 00:10:06.480 platonic ideal that man is infinitely malleable and you can 163 00:10:06.639 --> 00:10:11.320 infinitely mold man by altering the conditions. It's it's almost 164 00:10:11.440 --> 00:10:14.720 Faustian to the degree because like it allows you to 165 00:10:14.919 --> 00:10:20.919 like this iterative infinitely overcoming the bounds of my bounds 166 00:10:20.919 --> 00:10:23.679 to my conditions. And I believe kind of this like 167 00:10:23.759 --> 00:10:29.960 blink slate egalitarianism is residual of that where like not 168 00:10:30.039 --> 00:10:33.120 even biology is a constraint for us, and you kind 169 00:10:33.120 --> 00:10:36.480 of see this developing in like I know, like transhumanism 170 00:10:36.600 --> 00:10:40.120 is kind of a buzzword, but transhumanism just in terms 171 00:10:40.159 --> 00:10:46.200 of let's say, widening human cognitive capacity through things like 172 00:10:46.279 --> 00:10:50.480 neuralink and like exploring the final Frontier, which is Elon 173 00:10:50.559 --> 00:10:53.759 Musk's entire project. And so I think this kind of 174 00:10:53.759 --> 00:10:58.480 blink slate egalitarianism is just another facet of this, of 175 00:10:58.519 --> 00:11:03.360 this kind of Faucian concept that you can terrorform literally everything, 176 00:11:03.679 --> 00:11:08.720 including like humankind individually and as groups. 177 00:11:10.039 --> 00:11:14.679 Well, and that's that same idea in the perfect malleability 178 00:11:14.720 --> 00:11:18.320 of man. I think you see it nowhere else more 179 00:11:18.679 --> 00:11:22.639 than in education. The idea is that, you know, the 180 00:11:22.639 --> 00:11:27.399 these certain fields are and kind of stasis made up 181 00:11:27.480 --> 00:11:30.080 of demographics that we don't approve. We want it to 182 00:11:30.120 --> 00:11:34.039 be more representative, more made up of our of our clients. 183 00:11:34.519 --> 00:11:37.519 And so the idea is by simply passing people through 184 00:11:38.039 --> 00:11:41.600 you know, the hallowed halls. It's like, oh, well, Harvard 185 00:11:41.840 --> 00:11:45.759 makes Supreme Court justices. So if we just jam a 186 00:11:45.799 --> 00:11:49.000 bunch of our people, you know, people we decide that 187 00:11:49.039 --> 00:11:53.039 we want through that door, well will just produce you know, 188 00:11:53.200 --> 00:11:56.559 similarly august figures, and by sort of passing through the 189 00:11:56.639 --> 00:12:01.080 magic door, they will become the same thing. You see 190 00:12:01.080 --> 00:12:07.240 this as well, honestly, probably more clearly in public school system, right, 191 00:12:07.279 --> 00:12:10.759 the idea is simply like the piece of paper is 192 00:12:10.799 --> 00:12:14.039 the signifier. And so if you can simply increase the 193 00:12:14.120 --> 00:12:16.279 number of people or the sort of people getting something. 194 00:12:17.440 --> 00:12:21.720 They can be molded into that sort of idealized form. 195 00:12:22.320 --> 00:12:26.720 It's very much related to the sort of magic dirt 196 00:12:26.720 --> 00:12:30.200 fallacy you see with immigration, where if we simply take 197 00:12:30.200 --> 00:12:32.799 the entire world and stick them into a place that 198 00:12:32.919 --> 00:12:36.159 was nice ten years ago, well they will enjoy the 199 00:12:36.159 --> 00:12:39.320 benefits of that place being nice, and it become the 200 00:12:39.320 --> 00:12:43.440 same sort of people. Weirdly enough, this kind of reminds 201 00:12:43.480 --> 00:12:48.279 me of the and there's no polite term for this, 202 00:12:49.120 --> 00:12:56.679 but the we'll go Friedman's schools after the American Civil War, 203 00:12:57.240 --> 00:13:02.600 where effectively you had basic you know, Massachusetts wasps coming 204 00:13:02.639 --> 00:13:09.840 down to the reconstructive South in designed to basically eradicate 205 00:13:10.960 --> 00:13:13.480 what was black culture at the time and turn them 206 00:13:13.480 --> 00:13:19.440 into progressive white people. Right. And it's funny because, weirdly enough, 207 00:13:19.480 --> 00:13:23.240 a lot of the kind of like Nation of Islam 208 00:13:23.240 --> 00:13:26.039 black separatist types make this exact same point, one of 209 00:13:26.279 --> 00:13:28.480 very few points of agreement I have with those guys. 210 00:13:28.840 --> 00:13:31.440 But effectively it's the same project, right. It's this idea 211 00:13:31.480 --> 00:13:35.159 that we can, through education and training, turn this culture 212 00:13:35.279 --> 00:13:39.840 into something like us. It's sort of this bizarre kind 213 00:13:39.879 --> 00:13:43.000 of progressive imperialism, if that term makes sense to. 214 00:13:43.000 --> 00:13:43.480 You, Bookman. 215 00:13:44.799 --> 00:13:49.720 Yeah, And I believe kind of the one of the 216 00:13:49.759 --> 00:13:54.000 primary historical modes of operation that have or let's say 217 00:13:54.120 --> 00:13:58.440 substraits that have allowed for this to be facilitated. I really, 218 00:13:59.080 --> 00:14:03.279 I might make the stance mad, but I think Protestantism 219 00:14:03.720 --> 00:14:07.720 was really integral as the delivery method for a lot 220 00:14:07.759 --> 00:14:13.440 of these ideas. I'm an orthodox Christian and so but 221 00:14:13.960 --> 00:14:16.720 so take that with what you will. My biases are 222 00:14:16.720 --> 00:14:20.799 out there. But the kind of issue or what I 223 00:14:20.960 --> 00:14:29.759 see with Protestantism, especially especially kind of the more apocalyptic types, 224 00:14:29.879 --> 00:14:33.440 they like to compress the transcendent and the inminet and 225 00:14:33.559 --> 00:14:36.960 basically flatten that difference. And so therefore the idea is 226 00:14:37.000 --> 00:14:41.399 like this, we have to pure, imminently purify the world 227 00:14:41.600 --> 00:14:46.559 in order for skistological project to proceeed. And you see 228 00:14:46.559 --> 00:14:50.679 this kind of with the Social Gospel movement and Raush 229 00:14:50.720 --> 00:14:54.960 and Bush back in the eighteen fifties. And like the 230 00:14:55.000 --> 00:14:58.200 Social Gospel and Raush and Bush were really deprogenitors of 231 00:14:58.240 --> 00:15:03.399 a lot of the the Northeast social justice initial initiatives. 232 00:15:03.720 --> 00:15:06.919 They were the kind of inspiration behind the whole house. 233 00:15:08.240 --> 00:15:10.799 They're the inspiration behind a lot of a lot of 234 00:15:10.799 --> 00:15:14.000 the civil civil rights movements. You have a lot of 235 00:15:14.039 --> 00:15:21.200 progressive progressive Protestants participating and encouraging civil rights movements. And 236 00:15:21.440 --> 00:15:23.720 part of this is I think, I think it is 237 00:15:23.759 --> 00:15:27.919 specifically a type of I guess a apocalyptic strain that 238 00:15:28.039 --> 00:15:34.720 is especially unique to evangelicalism, where the mot the mode 239 00:15:34.759 --> 00:15:38.320 of thinking is that purification of the world is necessary. 240 00:15:38.840 --> 00:15:41.840 And so obviously you have to look at the frame 241 00:15:42.080 --> 00:15:45.759 of which one is purifying the world, Like if if 242 00:15:46.039 --> 00:15:51.320 you think the world will be pure given certain precepts, 243 00:15:51.320 --> 00:15:53.879 you are going to follow those precepts to their logical conclusion. 244 00:15:54.080 --> 00:15:57.679 And so if that kind of delivery method is combined 245 00:15:57.759 --> 00:16:02.799 with these pre extant, uh aggressive precepts, that that kind 246 00:16:02.840 --> 00:16:05.399 of religion is going to pull these precepts to their 247 00:16:05.440 --> 00:16:09.799 logical conclusion, which ends up being blank slade galitarianism. Part 248 00:16:09.799 --> 00:16:14.080 of purifying the world is this absolute state of equality. 249 00:16:14.519 --> 00:16:18.759 And that's why the Social Gospel where they were an 250 00:16:18.759 --> 00:16:25.120 integral movement with the Christian socialists, and you kind of 251 00:16:25.120 --> 00:16:28.720 see the Protestant influence on the Fabian society, and there's 252 00:16:28.759 --> 00:16:32.480 all these kind of overlapping strands that kind of point 253 00:16:32.559 --> 00:16:39.559 to this weird imanitizing, almost quasi apocalyptic mode of thinking 254 00:16:39.559 --> 00:16:44.120 about politics and human society. I mean, I don't know 255 00:16:44.159 --> 00:16:46.720 if you're familiar with Eric Boglin, but it's Eric Boglin's 256 00:16:46.720 --> 00:16:50.000 famous line of iminitizing the esketon. And that's kind of 257 00:16:50.080 --> 00:16:54.639 what at least the evangelical strain of Prosantism has has 258 00:16:54.799 --> 00:16:55.720 ushered in. 259 00:16:58.000 --> 00:17:04.200 Well, I think fundamentally. And it's funny. I'm not necessarily 260 00:17:04.680 --> 00:17:08.039 like a Southern lost cause type, but you know, they 261 00:17:08.039 --> 00:17:12.960 talk about this quite a bit that effectively what you 262 00:17:13.000 --> 00:17:16.759 have in America is two distinct cultures, right, Northern and 263 00:17:16.799 --> 00:17:22.319 Southern culture, with profoundly different views on human nature and 264 00:17:22.680 --> 00:17:27.960 effectively the perfectibility of man. So in a cultural sense, 265 00:17:28.000 --> 00:17:32.119 you see the output of this kind of tragic understanding 266 00:17:32.160 --> 00:17:34.920 of human nature and things like Southern Gothic literature, right, 267 00:17:34.960 --> 00:17:38.680 the idea that man is at his core deeply flawed, 268 00:17:39.319 --> 00:17:42.039 but there is nobility to be found in how you 269 00:17:42.079 --> 00:17:45.720 manage that flaw. Right. Whereas you know the concept of 270 00:17:46.079 --> 00:17:48.559 you know, the city on a Hill, which I believe 271 00:17:49.559 --> 00:17:54.839 was initially coined by oh, shoot, what was his name? 272 00:17:55.400 --> 00:17:57.920 He was one of the initial pilgrims. I can't quite remember, right, 273 00:17:57.920 --> 00:18:02.039 but this idea of setting up a new novel and 274 00:18:02.160 --> 00:18:06.960 perfected society is something you can sort of bring the 275 00:18:07.000 --> 00:18:10.480 city of God into being in the world. The idea that, 276 00:18:11.119 --> 00:18:13.039 in much the same way talking about education, that you 277 00:18:13.079 --> 00:18:18.359 can fundamentally change what a man is. And actually, if 278 00:18:18.359 --> 00:18:21.039 we're gonna I realized mold Bug has become sort of 279 00:18:21.119 --> 00:18:28.519 unfashionable recently, but he has a series of essays on Quakers, 280 00:18:29.200 --> 00:18:33.000 and he particularly talks about the idea of prison, you know, 281 00:18:33.039 --> 00:18:35.319 not simply as like a dungeon, we throw you before, 282 00:18:35.359 --> 00:18:38.039 we either let you go or peel your skin off 283 00:18:38.039 --> 00:18:40.920 and set you on fire. You know, this was more 284 00:18:41.000 --> 00:18:44.400 common before they came around, and the idea in that 285 00:18:44.640 --> 00:18:48.119 was basically that, you know, prison was a sort of 286 00:18:49.480 --> 00:18:52.400 like state and judicial form of purgatory or you could 287 00:18:52.440 --> 00:18:56.039 sort of you know, work off your sins. And so 288 00:18:56.400 --> 00:18:59.960 in the early days of these reformatory prism prisons are 289 00:19:00.039 --> 00:19:01.559 what they call them is they have these sort of 290 00:19:01.640 --> 00:19:07.119 like comedically like sissify and jobs, you know, like they 291 00:19:07.200 --> 00:19:09.599 just have a box with a paddle full of sand 292 00:19:10.079 --> 00:19:12.559 and they just make you turn this wheel for hours 293 00:19:12.599 --> 00:19:14.920 on end, and that was your prison sentence. And okay, 294 00:19:14.920 --> 00:19:18.440 maybe that's better than just you know, eating you know, 295 00:19:18.480 --> 00:19:21.119 mac and cheese and you know, getting in you know, 296 00:19:21.160 --> 00:19:23.119 shive fights with Mexicans or whatever we do in our 297 00:19:23.119 --> 00:19:26.640 prisons now. But you still you have that idea that, 298 00:19:27.000 --> 00:19:31.079 you know, the point of criminal justice is not to 299 00:19:33.119 --> 00:19:36.640 avenge the wrong, punished the guilty, but it is to 300 00:19:36.759 --> 00:19:43.960 produce a measurable like a moral improvement and change in 301 00:19:44.000 --> 00:19:48.079 the criminal himself. It sort of becomes this social engineering project, 302 00:19:48.480 --> 00:19:52.079 and that same idea is scaled up, of course, the 303 00:19:52.119 --> 00:19:55.240 idea that you can do that to an entire society, 304 00:19:55.480 --> 00:19:58.400 which becomes there is a moral duty to do that too, 305 00:19:58.920 --> 00:20:00.920 cultures who are not as enlightened as you are, that 306 00:20:00.960 --> 00:20:04.240 you can you know, wage a massive war or you know, 307 00:20:04.279 --> 00:20:07.799 with your own society, or the idea that democracy needs 308 00:20:07.799 --> 00:20:10.279 to be exported to the world. It's this sort of 309 00:20:11.119 --> 00:20:14.720 belief in both the perfectibility of man and also in 310 00:20:14.759 --> 00:20:18.000 your personal moral duty to expand that system as far 311 00:20:18.039 --> 00:20:20.640 as possible. Again, it's that same sort of kind of 312 00:20:21.079 --> 00:20:23.000 progressive imperialism mentioned earlier. 313 00:20:26.519 --> 00:20:34.279 Yeah, I think two we also kind of forget what 314 00:20:34.359 --> 00:20:40.480 civilization is in these conversations, specifically progressive or I don't know. 315 00:20:40.559 --> 00:20:43.839 It's like if they forget per se, but they had 316 00:20:43.839 --> 00:20:48.519 this idea of civilization as this kind of abstract thing 317 00:20:48.759 --> 00:20:54.200 that exists independent of people. Like institutions have their kind 318 00:20:54.200 --> 00:21:00.240 of like own ontologically independent existence, and it's it's on 319 00:21:00.279 --> 00:21:05.519 the institutions are comprised of people who whom the society 320 00:21:05.640 --> 00:21:09.400 is comprised of institutions or kind of these like standalone 321 00:21:09.519 --> 00:21:17.200 things that exist independent of the society. And to that extent, 322 00:21:17.400 --> 00:21:19.200 like if you've sent that content of the institution to 323 00:21:19.279 --> 00:21:22.160 the civilization is like civilization is just a thing that 324 00:21:22.279 --> 00:21:28.039 exists and people happen to inhabit civilization. Whereas I think 325 00:21:28.319 --> 00:21:30.759 my perspective and probably probably it is probably close to 326 00:21:30.799 --> 00:21:34.480 your perspective, Like civilization is not independent of the people 327 00:21:34.519 --> 00:21:38.559 that comprisee it. Civilization is an extension of the Ethnos. 328 00:21:39.480 --> 00:21:43.000 It's not something that you can interchange. It is mutually 329 00:21:43.039 --> 00:21:47.799 dependent upon the Ethnos. And when we had this kind of. 330 00:21:48.079 --> 00:21:51.440 Go ahead, oh well, and this is is Demeister's whole 331 00:21:51.480 --> 00:21:55.559 point right writing about constitutions, where it's like the constitution 332 00:21:55.720 --> 00:21:58.680 does not create a people, it describes a people at 333 00:21:58.680 --> 00:22:01.359 a certain time. It has no power in and of 334 00:22:01.400 --> 00:22:05.920 itself and this idea and exactly what you just mentioned 335 00:22:06.240 --> 00:22:08.359 is why when I very rarely decide to post to 336 00:22:08.400 --> 00:22:13.599 social media on Twitter at least, I very afflic get 337 00:22:13.640 --> 00:22:18.720 into the dumbest arguments in the world with both constitutional conservatives, 338 00:22:19.160 --> 00:22:21.160 you know, for the idea that you know, a constitution 339 00:22:21.319 --> 00:22:25.160 does not have the ability to enforce or create a culture, 340 00:22:25.640 --> 00:22:29.640 which in my mind is demonstrably true. Right does America 341 00:22:29.720 --> 00:22:34.200 look like it did in seventeen seventy seven? I rest 342 00:22:34.240 --> 00:22:38.119 my point, but also right with the an caps who believe, 343 00:22:38.400 --> 00:22:41.200 you know, that no state should be allowed to regulate 344 00:22:41.559 --> 00:22:44.119 you know, who lives in a certain area and simply 345 00:22:44.160 --> 00:22:47.400 culture is not a factor. But at the same time, 346 00:22:47.559 --> 00:22:50.920 right these these even something is as kind of liberal 347 00:22:50.920 --> 00:22:53.720 as the conception of human rights, you know, the rights 348 00:22:53.839 --> 00:22:56.200 enumerated to you, you know, by God or the state, 349 00:22:56.279 --> 00:22:59.519 depending on your view of it. Those are highly cultural. 350 00:23:00.240 --> 00:23:06.599 Those are effectively Anglo conceptions, right. The other cultures do 351 00:23:06.680 --> 00:23:09.599 not conceptualize things in such a way. And sorry, I'll 352 00:23:09.680 --> 00:23:11.000 kick it back to you, but I think that's what 353 00:23:11.160 --> 00:23:15.720 makes Demeaster's work so interesting is because he is addressing 354 00:23:15.720 --> 00:23:18.640 that very very early, right, you know, briefly after the revolution, 355 00:23:18.799 --> 00:23:22.440 you know, the idea that you can create a sort 356 00:23:22.480 --> 00:23:26.039 of formalized description or a set of rules that will 357 00:23:26.920 --> 00:23:30.880 guide culture. And clearly that doesn't work. But excuse me, 358 00:23:30.920 --> 00:23:33.400 I interrupted you. 359 00:23:33.480 --> 00:23:36.799 And this kind of like goes back to the classical 360 00:23:36.839 --> 00:23:42.480 liberal idea, well, let's say the small government conservative Like 361 00:23:42.839 --> 00:23:45.920 the kind of point they're failing to understand is that 362 00:23:46.039 --> 00:23:51.039 small government is only possible when you have authoritarian government 363 00:23:51.319 --> 00:23:55.799 on the borders, on the edges of society. Like I 364 00:23:55.799 --> 00:23:58.039 like to think about as like let's say, hard and 365 00:23:58.160 --> 00:24:02.039 stern strictures facing the outside and a more kind of 366 00:24:02.200 --> 00:24:06.519 soft a soft belly. And we we kind of have 367 00:24:06.680 --> 00:24:08.599 this concept in the Orthodox Church with it where it's 368 00:24:08.640 --> 00:24:11.960 called like economia, where the priest has leave to kind 369 00:24:12.039 --> 00:24:17.039 of grant you, let's say a little bit of latitude 370 00:24:17.079 --> 00:24:21.240 on certain things, given the circumstances of your situation. And 371 00:24:22.599 --> 00:24:26.559 I think that that that concept is applicable to civilization. 372 00:24:26.839 --> 00:24:31.880 But it's only and that like basically libertarianism on the 373 00:24:31.920 --> 00:24:37.160 in on the inside of society, whereas a hard shell 374 00:24:37.319 --> 00:24:40.880 facing the outside of society, that type of like kind 375 00:24:40.880 --> 00:24:45.079 of free market, free association where you kind of let 376 00:24:45.440 --> 00:24:49.559 let society run on its own substrates is only possible 377 00:24:49.680 --> 00:24:53.279 if you maintain the integrity of the society from the 378 00:24:53.319 --> 00:24:55.039 inside facing the outside. 379 00:24:56.559 --> 00:24:56.799 Well. 380 00:24:56.799 --> 00:25:02.599 And it's sort of based in uh a similar a 381 00:25:02.640 --> 00:25:08.119 similar myth, the idea of the neutral institution. You know 382 00:25:08.160 --> 00:25:11.720 that an institution, whether it's the judiciary or you know, education, 383 00:25:11.880 --> 00:25:16.200 whichever can deal with can deal with everyone fairly, that 384 00:25:16.240 --> 00:25:20.119 it has no I guess a negative way to say it, 385 00:25:20.160 --> 00:25:23.559 but it has no sort of bias or prejudice built 386 00:25:23.680 --> 00:25:27.880 into it. Clearly that is is not the case. And 387 00:25:28.079 --> 00:25:31.319 you know, as regards this kind of mix of you know, 388 00:25:31.359 --> 00:25:36.079 authoritarian and libertarianism, it's like, well, to be honest, it's 389 00:25:36.119 --> 00:25:39.079 it's freedom to do what because you know, even when 390 00:25:39.119 --> 00:25:42.599 you look at the constitutional conservative types they hold up 391 00:25:43.079 --> 00:25:45.039 you know, the era of the American founding, the kind 392 00:25:45.039 --> 00:25:47.519 of first American republic or if they don't know a 393 00:25:47.519 --> 00:25:49.440 whole lot about history, kind of the first and second 394 00:25:49.519 --> 00:25:52.559 you know, pre Lincoln as this example of you know, 395 00:25:52.599 --> 00:25:55.480 maximal freedom. And it's like, well, well, sure like from 396 00:25:55.480 --> 00:25:57.079 a certain perspective, you have quite a lot of freedom. 397 00:25:57.119 --> 00:25:58.599 You don't really have to pay a lot in taxes. 398 00:25:59.240 --> 00:26:01.480 You know, no one can say, you know, no one 399 00:26:01.480 --> 00:26:04.799 can tell you not to you know, drop gamer words 400 00:26:04.960 --> 00:26:09.240 or you know where you can live. But at the 401 00:26:09.279 --> 00:26:13.640