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Speaker 6: You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking
Speaker 6: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 6: written about them. Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK Every
Speaker 6: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 6: infamous killers in true crime history true Murder with your host,
Speaker 6: journalist and author Dan Zupanski.
Speaker 5: Good evening, Endgame of the Most Dangerous Game Golden State
Speaker 5: Killer takes you through the journey of trying to find
Speaker 5: a serial killer, serial cat burglar, a serial rapist, and
Speaker 5: a serial killer. After a lifetime of tracing and tracking,
Speaker 5: waiting and watching, one of the most dangerous serial killers
Speaker 5: in the state of California has ever seen. And Penn
Speaker 5: takes us through the chapters, including the guilty Please of
Speaker 5: Joseph James DiAngelo June twenty ninth, twenty twenty. Endgame. At Last,
Speaker 5: the criminal will spend his final days in prison. This
Speaker 5: is the place he has belonged for decades. Endgame was
Speaker 5: how it was supposed to be. The book that were featuring.
Speaker 5: This evening is Endgame of the Most Dangerous Game, Golden
Speaker 5: State Killer, with my special guest journalist and author and Penn.
Speaker 5: Welcome back to the program, and thank you so much
Speaker 5: for this interview. And Penn, thank you, Yeah.
Speaker 7: Thank you so much.
Speaker 8: I appreciate it.
Speaker 5: Thank you so much. Congratulations on being able to write
Speaker 5: a suitable ending to this incredible series of books that
Speaker 5: you've written, and this investigation undertaken for virtually most of
Speaker 5: your life, as we will find out, Let's talk about
Speaker 5: these series of events. Just before you had heard about
Speaker 5: the arrest, tell us who you were communicating with and
Speaker 5: what you knew about the possibility of genealogy, genetic genealogy
Speaker 5: being involved with this case, and then tell us about
Speaker 5: the arrest.
Speaker 7: Right well. Prior to the arrest, I had been, of
Speaker 7: course talking to Larry Crompton for quite some time. I
Speaker 7: had spoken to volunteers who worked on the case in Sacramento,
Speaker 7: briefly because Larry put me in touch with them based
Speaker 7: on some of the things I was telling him I
Speaker 7: thought the guy was. And what was interesting about that
Speaker 7: was they had been investigating someone at that very moment
Speaker 7: that had been exactly what I was talking to Larry about,
Speaker 7: without having any idea that they had been looking into
Speaker 7: this guy that was from my neck.
Speaker 8: Of the woods.
Speaker 7: So it was interesting to get some perspective on what
Speaker 7: they had been doing voluntarily for quite some time, bringing
Speaker 7: persons of interest forward for a real close look and
Speaker 7: see if the DNA profile matched and So that was
Speaker 7: a brief time frame during twenty sixteen, and I met
Speaker 7: with them in Sacramento as well as lots of different
Speaker 7: phone conversations with I spoke to Paul Belly down there.
Speaker 7: I spoke to different jurisdictions, you know. I tried getting
Speaker 7: in contact with Ventura Homicide to see if there was
Speaker 7: a cold case unit, and of course there wasn't. I've
Speaker 7: spoken to the FBI, I spoke to different people just
Speaker 7: to try to figure out what, you know, the connections
Speaker 7: were and how we could figure this out. To Paul
Speaker 7: Holes several times on the phone and gave him some
Speaker 7: information and we sort of chatted back and forth about
Speaker 7: possible connections between Sacramento and Bentura and.
Speaker 8: Things like that.
Speaker 7: So there were a lot of different phone conversations prior
Speaker 7: to the arrest with quite a few different people.
Speaker 5: Now there was the arrest, and I've interviewed you after
Speaker 5: this arrest and also Larry Crompton, Richard Shelby after this arrest,
Speaker 5: and so what did you and others that were looking
Speaker 5: for answers, what did you find out in the interim
Speaker 5: between the arrest and then this sentencing Just recently in
Speaker 5: twenty twenty here just very very recently.
Speaker 7: Well, actually, as you can tell, there was a lot
Speaker 7: since a couple of the books were five hundred pages.
Speaker 7: But there's just so much information. Of course, there's so
Speaker 7: many murders that have been committed in the state of California,
Speaker 7: and trying to track a serial killer after you know
Speaker 7: who he is was an interesting task. But there are
Speaker 7: so many murders that have a signature to them. A
Speaker 7: lot of people are like, well, what's his signature. Basically,
Speaker 7: one of the signatures he had was his ability to
Speaker 7: attack and move on, and that's what worked for him
Speaker 7: across jurisdictional lines. And I am certain that the Angelo
Speaker 7: knew where the county lines were and what jurisdiction he
Speaker 7: went from place to place, So that's one of the
Speaker 7: things that kept him free. He just would attack somewhere
Speaker 7: and move on. He would attack and go home.
Speaker 8: Whatever he did.
Speaker 7: He always went from one county to the other to
Speaker 7: do what he wanted to do, to commit crimes, and
Speaker 7: then go home or go somewhere else. So that was
Speaker 7: one of the things that we kind of knew he did.
Speaker 7: Paul and I talked about it, and he talked about
Speaker 7: it in interviews where he said that the Angelo would
Speaker 7: drive down the freeway and then a few hours later
Speaker 7: he'd hit someplace else, and that's absolutely true.
Speaker 5: So now you talk about all the research that you
Speaker 5: did and all the investigating you did throughout this entire
Speaker 5: series and up until the arrest and then following the rest,
Speaker 5: and now this book and game tell us about the
Speaker 5: June twenty ninth appearance this year. What was that for
Speaker 5: and what was gained in your mind from watching this?
Speaker 8: Well, what was.
Speaker 7: Very painful about it and what was interesting about it
Speaker 7: was watching him admit guilt and the way that he did.
Speaker 7: It was really pretty awful to say, I admit and
Speaker 7: guilty and that's all he was.
Speaker 8: Just the whole thing was really.
Speaker 7: Very difficult to watch for everyone and the people involved
Speaker 7: that were there. It had to be horrendous to sit
Speaker 7: there for eight hours and listen to this one attack
Speaker 7: after the other, and most all of them were pretty
Speaker 7: much the same, just over and over and over. You
Speaker 7: have to take a break from it once in a while.
Speaker 8: I had to push pause and walk away. It was
Speaker 8: just so horrendous what he did to these people.
Speaker 5: How detailed were the descriptions of the murders and rapes
Speaker 5: and crimes.
Speaker 7: Themselves extremely detailed, which is why it was so horrendous
Speaker 7: to listen to. And I hope to never have to
Speaker 7: hear or experience anything like that. Just like these ladies
Speaker 7: and these victims who were there, I mean, it's just
Speaker 7: I can't even fathom how they must have felt sitting there. So, yeah,
Speaker 7: it was eight hours of just exhausting, emotionally draining, horrendous
Speaker 7: detail about everything, and for him to sit there like
Speaker 7: he was trying to pretend he was weak while he
Speaker 7: admitted was just awful.
Speaker 5: So let's talk about that before we talk about what
Speaker 5: must have been the most difficult was to hear details,
Speaker 5: intimate details of the murder of your relatives, Lyman Smith
Speaker 5: and Charlene. But tell us about what was said in
Speaker 5: court or proven in court in terms of his in
Speaker 5: terms of his health. You have a dramatic photo in
Speaker 5: the book two photos after his arrest and then two
Speaker 5: years later, and it's a dramatic difference. But tell us
Speaker 5: what some things that were revealed in court to dispute
Speaker 5: his appearance at court.
Speaker 7: Well, he basically really was in pretty good shape. I mean,
Speaker 7: he acted like he was younger up until his arrest
Speaker 7: and then he immediately began to lose weight, and everybody
Speaker 7: kept thinking that he was going to die before he
Speaker 7: ever made it to or to court. And you know,
Speaker 7: what I had heard through the prosecutor's office was that
Speaker 7: he was exercising and lifting weights and basically the food's
Speaker 7: not that great in jail, so I knew he was strong.
Speaker 7: That he just looked like he was playing a part
Speaker 7: like many people thought. And of course recently we saw
Speaker 7: on television that he was moving about his cell. He
Speaker 7: was very agile, he could reach, and he was very
Speaker 7: controlled in his movements. He was strong, so it was
Speaker 7: just all an act, and he was called out on
Speaker 7: that he was trying to I'm sure, get some ability
Speaker 7: to go to a place where he could be in
Speaker 7: a maybe an old people's prison, I don't know, but
Speaker 7: the point is he was trying to be housed in
Speaker 7: a safe place, and I don't think that.
Speaker 8: Flew very well.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 5: Yeah, now, I know it's difficult, but what did you
Speaker 5: learn in this horrible recitation reciting of the murders of
Speaker 5: Lymon Smith and his wife Charlene?
Speaker 7: Actually know it's there was nothing that I hadn't heard
Speaker 7: before personally. When I was told about the murders by
Speaker 7: my family. It was such a horrendous u I heard
Speaker 7: all the details really that he might have been peeping
Speaker 7: watching them prior to coming in, that he had prowled
Speaker 7: prior to that in the neighborhood that he had. You know,
Speaker 7: Charlene was feeling like someone was watching her or being
Speaker 7: you know, stalked. So there was really nothing new that
Speaker 7: I had heard she you know, they they complied, They
Speaker 7: did everything that was asked of them. And like every
Speaker 7: other murder or even if we talk about the Zodiac
Speaker 7: for example, the thing that that di'angelo did and the
Speaker 7: Golden State killer always did was trying to get his
Speaker 7: victims to feel like, you know, well see if you
Speaker 7: do this, I won't kill you. But he threatened to
Speaker 7: kill them always right and many times the East Very
Speaker 7: rapist he didn't kill them as the East Area rapist,
Speaker 7: you know, but but what he did was try to
Speaker 7: tell him, hey, you know, you need to tie him
Speaker 7: up and so on. And the thing that he did,
Speaker 7: which was consistent throughout when he killed couples was the
Speaker 7: way that he tied them. He tied them, you know,
Speaker 7: the same way, over and over again.
Speaker 8: And what he did, what he said was the.
Speaker 7: Same over and over, which is why I thought, and
Speaker 7: I think that the persona that he had as Zodiac,
Speaker 7: especially at Lake bary Essa, was very similar. Actually it
Speaker 7: was identical what he said and what he did. The
Speaker 7: only difference was he used a knife, right.
Speaker 5: You right in this And I guess we can go
Speaker 5: on this little detour for a moment, because I found
Speaker 5: this very interesting that you felt that he was you
Speaker 5: believe he's a zodiac one and the same, but also
Speaker 5: that regardless, D'Angelo was influenced by certain movies. I thought
Speaker 5: this very interesting. Tell us briefly about this, what's your thoughts?
Speaker 7: Well, you know, it all sounds really far fetched, I'm sure,
Speaker 7: but the reality for Joseph di'angelo is this.
Speaker 8: He is a dramatic. He likes drama.
Speaker 7: He likes to do a show, which is what he
Speaker 7: really did as the Eastern Ey rapist. He communicated with
Speaker 7: law enforcement briefly and the media. He also did the
Speaker 7: same thing over and over. He loved to read about
Speaker 7: himself in the newspaper. So he was very dramatic and
Speaker 7: so that was an influence that he probably gained as
Speaker 7: a kid watching television from the nineteen fifties and nineteen sixties,
Speaker 7: there were shows on TV and there's a few movies
Speaker 7: that I'm sure were classic movies he probably saw, and
Speaker 7: one of them had to do with Charlie chan at
Speaker 7: the Treasure Island of all Things. And of course a
Speaker 7: lot of people who talk about Zodiac know about that,
Speaker 7: but the reality is there was a character in there
Speaker 7: with a disguise, and when I found interesting, and that
Speaker 7: really the only thing that I found connected in my
Speaker 7: mind to.
Speaker 8: What the influence might have.
Speaker 7: Been from that movie was the fact that his costume
Speaker 7: as a Zodiac at Lake Uryssa that day was deceiving
Speaker 7: in that he could have been any height, any weight,
Speaker 7: any you know. That was the thing that stood out
Speaker 7: to me from that movie was that many different people
Speaker 7: put on that costume and you couldn't tell who was
Speaker 7: in there. And so that's what I gained from that,
Speaker 7: And that really was his drama. That he controlled the narrative,
Speaker 7: control the media, control law enforcement. He wanted to control
Speaker 7: everybody and everything, and so that's what I gathered from
Speaker 7: his drama.
Speaker 8: It's the show.
Speaker 5: What about the influence of the Most Dangerous Game.
Speaker 7: The influence of that book. You know, when you talk
Speaker 7: about in that movie too. I guess really what you
Speaker 7: talk about is there's a couple of different ones that
Speaker 7: I mentioned in there, but he really one of them
Speaker 7: is about the movie The Dangerous Game and basically what's
Speaker 7: going on as people are hunting people, and that's really
Speaker 7: what he was doing. He was hunting people, and he
Speaker 7: was a killing machine, and he killed every way he
Speaker 7: could in every type of situation. And he was not
Speaker 7: married to and not connected to one way of killing.
Speaker 7: He didn't care how he killed.
Speaker 8: He just killed.
Speaker 5: Now back to this June twenty ninth, who were in
Speaker 5: attendance and again just try to what was the atmosphere
Speaker 5: that you saw at this hearing with the Angelo and
Speaker 5: these victims.
Speaker 7: Well, the victims, rape victims, murder victims' families were there.
Speaker 7: Obviously it doesn't show real well on YouTube who exactly
Speaker 7: is there with masks on during COVID, But basically I
Speaker 7: know that quite a few people were in attendance that
Speaker 7: had been personally affected by him, and rape victims and
Speaker 7: people who originally could not have claimed anything because a
Speaker 7: statute of limitations had run out on some of the
Speaker 7: rapes that he did in fact admit to and I
Speaker 7: was really glad to see that they did that. I'm
Speaker 7: certain that the victims of those crimes were glad to
Speaker 7: see that, and they felt maybe they had had justice.
Speaker 8: But so that was a good thing.
Speaker 7: But it was pretty serious and pretty daunting and pretty awful.
Speaker 5: So what was the statement that he made when he
Speaker 5: had the opportunity, Well.
Speaker 7: At the end during the sentencing, of course, I didn't
Speaker 7: expect that. I actually I'm not surprised usually anymore by
Speaker 7: anything that happens or what anybody does, but that surprised me.
Speaker 7: I didn't know that. When they were going to read
Speaker 7: statements from his family, it seemed really almost inappropriate in
Speaker 7: a way. I understand why they do it, but it
Speaker 7: seemed they're reading those right in front of the victims
Speaker 7: of this man, about how wonderful he was as a
Speaker 7: father and so on, and it just seemed, my word
Speaker 7: today is awful. But when he stood up, of course,
Speaker 7: he stood up without any problem, and he spoke in
Speaker 7: his own voice finally, and I just sat there saying,
Speaker 7: oh my god. I couldn't believe that he was going
Speaker 7: to actually talk. And so I'm sure there were quite
Speaker 7: a few people that probably felt that way. But his statement.
Speaker 7: I thought, why in the heck did he do that?
Speaker 7: What did he possibly have to gain from that? And
Speaker 7: there were two things that came to my mind, and
Speaker 7: one was he was apologizing to his family. He wasn't
Speaker 7: apologizing to his victims. He has probably taken the opportunity
Speaker 7: to say he was sorry to his own family. And also,
Speaker 7: why not take advantage of the last moments that he
Speaker 7: could speak and once again had the stage and be
Speaker 7: dramatic and know that that's what would be printed in
Speaker 7: the news media, and that's what would be shown pictures
Speaker 7: of and so of course he couldn't resist, and so
Speaker 7: that's why I.
Speaker 8: Think he did it.
Speaker 5: I read in your book was a surprise was that
Speaker 5: there was something written by his brother in law. Tell
Speaker 5: us a little bit about that.
Speaker 7: Oh, just I don't know what he wrote, really, I
Speaker 7: didn't read it. I didn't buy it. I know that
Speaker 7: he was trying to promote it by saying that he
Speaker 7: was going to shed some light on Joseph DiAngelo's behaviors.
Speaker 7: What he missed possibly and maybe should have seen as
Speaker 7: kind of odd. But I haven't read it personally, so
Speaker 7: I don't really know. I can't really speak.
Speaker 8: To what's in it.
Speaker 7: I do know that one of the things that was
Speaker 7: interesting was just one photograph, and that was from the
Speaker 7: video he had posted to promote his book of he
Speaker 7: and James Huttle and D'Angelo on the boat out in
Speaker 7: the bay down by Pittsburgh, California, which is near Antioch
Speaker 7: in Contracosta County. And so what it did was make
Speaker 7: me think, hmm, what happened down there in that area?
Speaker 7: And so I looked on newspapers and looked around, and
Speaker 7: there were lots of murders. And you know, just because
Speaker 7: people talk about him stopping in nineteen eighty six, of
Speaker 7: course most of us know he didn't. And so there
Speaker 7: are murders in the eighties and the nineties and so
Speaker 7: on that you can look at to determine if it's him.
Speaker 5: Now, in this book, you talk about other murders, and
Speaker 5: you know his signature, I believe better than anyone, or
Speaker 5: as well as anyone.
Speaker 8: I appreciate that.
Speaker 5: You talk about other murders and other rapes that could
Speaker 5: be attributed to him. What have you done in the
Speaker 5: pursuit of those, especially the ones you felt were more
Speaker 5: certain that it fit the bill for DiAngelo? What have
Speaker 5: you done in terms of reaching out to other counties
Speaker 5: and there the people at those jurisdictions about your assertions.
Speaker 7: Well, prior to this sentencing, and I'll vis admitting basically,
Speaker 7: I had talked to quite a few different jurisdictions about
Speaker 7: different murders. There are some in particular that you I mean,
Speaker 7: if it's not him, my god, you know, you can
Speaker 7: just blow me over, because the fact is that one
Speaker 7: of the things that he liked to do was taunt
Speaker 7: the police. And some of the things that he did
Speaker 7: was to leave bodies not far from the police station
Speaker 7: or not. You know, he left it in canals and
Speaker 7: so on a lot of the time. And so there
Speaker 7: are certain murders and certain things that he did where
Speaker 7: you read about it. These are just newspaper articles. I
Speaker 7: don't have the police files. But when you look at them,
Speaker 7: there's one in particular in Auburn, and he really did
Speaker 7: quite a few things in that neck of the woods
Speaker 7: and that geographical location. But one in particular was where
Speaker 7: he left a body about a block and a half.
Speaker 8: Away from the police station.
Speaker 7: And this happened decade after after decade, and so when
Speaker 7: you look at that and you go, okay, here's here's
Speaker 7: murders that I think we can pretty much say that
Speaker 7: he is a suspect or should be a suspect, and
Speaker 7: I'm going to bring him to that jurisdiction. Well, what
Speaker 7: happened was the DA investigator that I talked to in
Speaker 7: Sacramento said, you know what, my biggest concern is making
Speaker 7: sure that nothing flows down the trial of D'Angel And
Speaker 7: I said, I had the same concern, and so I
Speaker 7: have no problem laying low and not talking about anything.
Speaker 8: And so I did that. I pretty much just waited and.
Speaker 7: Talk to different people along the way. But the fact
Speaker 7: is is that there's going to be always questions about
Speaker 7: how many murders he did, to what extent he damaged
Speaker 7: many more women. You know, we may never know and
Speaker 7: we probably will never know how much he really did do,
Speaker 7: and I don't know that they'll pursue it. There are
Speaker 7: murders in them by Celia the Jennifer ar Moore, and
Speaker 7: of course people talk about Donna Richmond and the fact
Speaker 7: that Oscar Clifton was set up. There's just so many
Speaker 7: murders still and abductions of girls, people being chased like
Speaker 7: I was at fourteen in Sacramento. You know, other people
Speaker 7: betting abducted in the seventies. He was there, he was
Speaker 7: in our geographical space, he was all over that town,
Speaker 7: he was all over wherever he went. He was very active,
Speaker 7: and so for him to have stopped, for anybody to
Speaker 7: believe from nineteen seventy three to eighty six that was
Speaker 7: all he did, that.
Speaker 8: Would be naive.
Speaker 5: You also talk about the use of genetic genealogy in
Speaker 5: this course to make this incredible, unprecedented arrest of DeAngelo
Speaker 5: and conviction. But you say that there has been some
Speaker 5: other successes with this same technology. Tell us about that,
Speaker 5: and also tell us what you believe is ongoing with
Speaker 5: the Zodiac investigation.
Speaker 7: Well, that's quite a long question. There there have been
Speaker 7: I think it was ninety three other cases cold cases
Speaker 7: solved in the last couple of years since d'angelo's arrest.
Speaker 7: From genetic genealogy. It's a perfect tool to use to
Speaker 7: find these people that you know, all we have to
Speaker 7: do is go in there and retest evidence, and if
Speaker 7: people have stored it and kept it well, then we
Speaker 7: can convict people who have committed crimes forty years ago,
Speaker 7: thirty years ago. So it's been wonderful to watch the
Speaker 7: last two years, one person after the other be found,
Speaker 7: and then also the other wonderful thing is finding out
Speaker 7: who Jane and John does are are these people who
Speaker 7: who didn't have answers for their loved ones. It's just
Speaker 7: really been phenomenal, and I think that if people opt
Speaker 7: in to use this on jed match and other places.
Speaker 7: I think jed match was sold recently too. But there
Speaker 7: is just so much we can do with it, and
Speaker 7: hopefully it prevents more crimes like these, right. Yeah, Now
Speaker 7: regarding the Zodiac.
Speaker 8: What was your question exactly about the Zodiac?
Speaker 5: Well, what are they doing in terms of you have
Speaker 5: this promising technology? What are they doing with this, you know,
Speaker 5: one of the most confounding and the biggest cases in
Speaker 5: US history. What's going on with that? Do you think?
Speaker 8: Yeah, well, you.
Speaker 7: Know, this is obviously opinion, But I did talk to
Speaker 7: San Francisco the Zodiac cold case detective and his other
Speaker 7: detective that works on it. But what I was told,
Speaker 7: and of course what the public was told in twenty eighteen.
Speaker 7: In May twenty eighteen, they said, we're going to double
Speaker 7: check the DNA profile and we're.
Speaker 8: Going to check it out.
Speaker 7: And this was an article in Balleo in different places,
Speaker 7: and they were going to tell us what they found,
Speaker 7: and then there was nothing. There was silence for a
Speaker 7: couple of years almost, and I was watching scary people
Speaker 7: about the zodiac, and the criminalists on there said that
Speaker 7: they really didn't have any usable DNA from the stamps, etc.
Speaker 7: All they could gain from it was a partial DNA profile.
Speaker 7: And so I didn't pursue it much after that because
Speaker 7: we were waiting to hear what happened with DeAngelo's trial
Speaker 7: or sentencing or whatever the resolve was on that.
Speaker 8: So we kind of all just sat here and waited.
Speaker 7: And so I'm wondering now, of course, after it's all
Speaker 7: said and done, what will they do with the zodiac
Speaker 7: and what will they say and will.
Speaker 8: They talk about it because.
Speaker 7: There's you know, we still need answers to who killed
Speaker 7: those people. There's five murders from that.
Speaker 5: So how accepting other than taking your information our law
Speaker 5: enforcement about your book, What if about the idea that
Speaker 5: di'angelo and the Zodiac are one and the same and
Speaker 5: the evidence to provide for that?
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Well what they what they said was
Speaker 7: when I called, Like I said, I talked to several
Speaker 7: different jurisdictions and what they said was the first guy
Speaker 7: I talked to down in San Francisco said well, you're
Speaker 7: not the first person I ever thought of that, and
Speaker 7: I said, of course not if you're from the state
Speaker 7: of California and you know the geography. That was one
Speaker 7: of the first things I looked at in about twenty
Speaker 7: fourteen was, Gee, this geography is way too close. Is
Speaker 7: it the same serial killer? Is the Zodiac really the
Speaker 7: East Terry rapist, original Night Starker and so on? And
Speaker 7: so I looked at that, and then somebody I was
Speaker 7: talking to from Sacramento had me thinking that he was
Speaker 7: the wrong age to be the same guy. So I
Speaker 7: kind of went, well, I'll leave that alone for right
Speaker 7: now and I'll follow the Easter A rapist trail, and
Speaker 7: so that's what I did.
Speaker 8: I was always in.
Speaker 7: The back of my mind from twenty eighteen on, as
Speaker 7: we learned more and more about d Angela, I kept thinking, God,
Speaker 7: any minute, they're going to announce that he's either he
Speaker 7: is the Zodiac, we've ruled him in as the guy,
Speaker 7: or have ruled him out.
Speaker 8: And there was nothing. There was no word.
Speaker 7: So I got tired of waiting, which is why I
Speaker 7: thought I'm going to track and trace these murders, which
Speaker 7: is what I was doing. It's sort of like, did
Speaker 7: what else did he do? And so I was looking
Speaker 7: at what else did the Golden State Killer, Original Knight
Speaker 7: Soccer do? And I was really deep into that. And
Speaker 7: then eventually, in researching and talking to other people and
Speaker 7: trading information back and forth, I said to one of
Speaker 7: the people I was working with, I said, you know,
Speaker 7: what we need to do is connect one of the
Speaker 7: Zodiac victims to DiAngelo.
Speaker 8: And first we looked at Cecilia Shepherd.
Speaker 7: And then we went from there and there are a
Speaker 7: lot of military, a lot of people, a lot of
Speaker 7: connections to you know, everybody had military brothers, sisters, everybody.
Speaker 7: So we're looking at all these different things. Because we
Speaker 7: know DiAngelo had military backgrounds, we know probably Zodiac did too,
Speaker 7: so we're looking at that. And then I had not
Speaker 7: ever still read any of the Zodiac books that are
Speaker 7: out there, so I have no idea what they had
Speaker 7: to say about it. But the boots that he wore
Speaker 7: a Zodiac, the you know, different things aspects of that
Speaker 7: persona were you know, planted towards military. So anyway, long
Speaker 7: story short, they said to me, well, you're not the
Speaker 7: only one who thought that, and I said no. And
Speaker 7: then the next thing you said was well, you have
Speaker 7: to have evidence, and I said yep. I said, you
Speaker 7: got a minute, So I told him on the phone.
Speaker 7: For about forty five minutes, I talked to him, and
Speaker 7: I could.
Speaker 8: Hear him sit down, and I could hear him.
Speaker 7: Start taking notes. He said, are you taking notes? And
Speaker 7: he said yep. And then he had me send him
Speaker 7: emails and then he said he bought my kindle.
Speaker 8: Version of my book to check it out.
Speaker 7: And after that I did speak to his partner several times.
Speaker 7: So it was sort of like, huh, you know, I
Speaker 7: don't know. It's just one of those things where there's
Speaker 7: just so many coincidences and so many connections to what
Speaker 7: he said and what he did and where he was
Speaker 7: and when he was available. And since then I looked
Speaker 7: into you know, of course, I keep looking at everything
Speaker 7: kind of piece it all together. But the fact is
Speaker 7: that at the Zodiac attacked on holidays, Christmas vacation in
Speaker 7: nineteen sixty eight July nineteen sixty nine. During from school,
Speaker 7: Dangelo went to school and at Sierra College in nineteen
Speaker 7: sixty eight, he began his journey there in nineteen sixty eight.
Speaker 7: In December, we have the attack and the murders in
Speaker 7: Lake Kerman, and then we have the ones in sixty nine.
Speaker 7: We have all these different attacks that were on a
Speaker 7: Saturday or on a holiday from school. This is my thought,
Speaker 7: and that's just what he did, and it was easy
Speaker 7: and all he had to do was drive back home
Speaker 7: after he did it, which is what I think he did.
Speaker 7: He hopped, he stopped at a phone booze and called
Speaker 7: the cops down the street from their pop station. But
Speaker 7: then he hops on the freeway, a highway eighty and
Speaker 7: he goes home. And that's what he did. That was
Speaker 7: his signature to just leave the area. And everybody else
Speaker 7: is standing around going hmm, I wonder what happened?
Speaker 8: Where did you know? Who did this?
Speaker 7: So yeah, I really do get Tim. The geography. It's
Speaker 7: I put maps in my books because I want people
Speaker 7: to google map it and see for yourself at Auburn, Sacramento,
Speaker 7: the Bay area.
Speaker 8: It's all so close.
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Speaker 8: Eighteen plus.
Speaker 5: And we're back, and we're talking about your rationale for
Speaker 5: thinking that the Angelo and the Zodiac are one and
Speaker 5: the same. You've brought that information to investigators and they've
Speaker 5: asked for that information, you've given it to them. Let's
Speaker 5: go back to the impetus for this entire series of books,
Speaker 5: starting off with Murder on His Mind, serial Killer. Let's
Speaker 5: talk about the murders of Lyman Smith and Charlene and
Speaker 5: especially what it did to your family at that time.
Speaker 5: You said you didn't read the news, but you did
Speaker 5: hear all the details, the graphic details, horrible details. But
Speaker 5: tell us also how it influenced your family, That the
Speaker 5: rumor mill, and that the accusation, the murder allegation against
Speaker 5: his business partner, how all of that affected you your
Speaker 5: entire life and affected your reasons for writing this book
Speaker 5: and writing and being involved in writing at all.
Speaker 7: Well, I always wanted to write, but I had been
Speaker 7: writing a book actually on verbal abuse and women's issues
Speaker 7: prior to ever having the thought that I should.
Speaker 8: Write about this serial killer. My long held.
Speaker 7: Belief systems and concerns have to do with rape, why
Speaker 7: it was never treated as a real crime, and then
Speaker 7: also verbal abuse, domestic abuse, different issues for women, and
Speaker 7: so that's always where my concerns have been. Also unequal
Speaker 7: treatment and so on. So all that occurred really was
Speaker 7: I got tired of waiting to hear, like many many
Speaker 7: other victims, families and victims, what was going on in
Speaker 7: the case. So I figured out that I would sit
Speaker 7: down and figure, you know, let me find out what's
Speaker 7: going on.
Speaker 8: So I did, and.
Speaker 7: I read Larry Crompton's book Sudden Terror, and I was
Speaker 7: still pretty afraid in twenty twelve, but when I heard
Speaker 7: about the murders, Originally I was a young lady and
Speaker 7: I was very terrified. It was about a year and
Speaker 7: a half after the Easter A Rapist series had happened
Speaker 7: in Sacramento.
Speaker 8: For three years. We were terrified prior to that.
Speaker 7: A year and a half prior to that, I'd been
Speaker 7: chased down my own street by two men in a.
Speaker 8: Truck and almost subducted. So I was already afraid. When
Speaker 8: the Easter A Rapist showed up, I was already afraid.
Speaker 7: And then, of course the murders happened a year and
Speaker 7: a half after that, so I was pretty terrified in general,
Speaker 7: and I had some hyper vigilant things I was doing.
Speaker 7: I was afraid to be seen in my own yard.
Speaker 7: I started to investigate serial killers in nineteen eighty right
Speaker 7: after the murders, because I thought this is random, this
Speaker 7: doesn't make any sense. It can't be a business partner
Speaker 7: or anyone.
Speaker 8: He knew.
Speaker 7: That doesn't make sense to me. And so I started
Speaker 7: investigating serial killers. I wanted to know and understand how
Speaker 7: something like this happens, and why somebody like this existed,
Speaker 7: and how they operated, how I could keep myself safe,
Speaker 7: how it can keep other women safe, you know, just
Speaker 7: by talking.
Speaker 8: About what occurred. And that really kind of was the motivation.
Speaker 7: It was like I needed to find my own voice
Speaker 7: and get rid of the fear that was still left
Speaker 7: in my mind in my body. And so I wrote
Speaker 7: Murder on His Mind for three reasons. One was to
Speaker 7: address my fear and to try to move through it.
Speaker 7: Another was to honor the victims of this criminal and
Speaker 7: to make sure nobody forgot them, especially the murder victims,
Speaker 7: because in every other book I'd seen, there were two
Speaker 7: pages and all it did was talk about how.
Speaker 8: They were murder victims.
Speaker 7: So I tried to make them people and make them
Speaker 7: real and to remember them. And the other was to
Speaker 7: try to help women. And so that's how this started, right.
Speaker 5: So, yeah, tell us about Larry Crompton's influence and some
Speaker 5: of the things he did in terms of even advising
Speaker 5: you as to what put in to put in your
Speaker 5: book and Win tell us a little bit about his influence.
Speaker 7: Well, like I said, he told me to be really
Speaker 7: careful when I first put out the first edition of
Speaker 7: Murder on his mind. He had actually had all of
Speaker 7: my personal connections in there, and I took them all out,
Speaker 7: which is why it was a little bit disheveled when
Speaker 7: it came out. And then people were like, well, who
Speaker 7: the hell are you and why did we care what
Speaker 7: you have to say? And so I thought okay, and
Speaker 7: then people were doubting any connection. So I thought, okay, fine,
Speaker 7: I will put back in my connections.
Speaker 8: And I did that.
Speaker 7: But when I did that, I was still afraid because
Speaker 7: I knew he was still in Sacramento. I knew he
Speaker 7: could still find me. I was afraid of him and
Speaker 7: anybody else that he knew that might be mean. So
Speaker 7: I was terrified. But Larry would say to me all
Speaker 7: the time. Every time we spoke, he'd say, be careful,
Speaker 7: and I was like, what am I being careful of?
Speaker 8: You know, do you really think someone's gonna come?
Speaker 7: And He's like, no, not really. So eventually my husband
Speaker 7: and I went and bought a shotgun in a nine millimeter.
Speaker 8: And took it out and practiced.
Speaker 7: But the fact is is that I got hang up
Speaker 7: calls once I released the first edition or the second edition,
Speaker 7: excuse me, and they were left on my machine. They
Speaker 7: were breathing phone calls and so on, and of course
Speaker 7: that's designed to scare you. And I thought, gee, was
Speaker 7: this somebody that doesn't like me that's harassing me or
Speaker 7: trying to scare me? Or is it really DeAngelo? Because
Speaker 7: he likes to read about himself, I thought, geez, did
Speaker 7: he read my book? And I knew he was not
Speaker 7: too far away from where I lived, so I was terrified,
Speaker 7: but I would stand it down anyway. In the dark,
Speaker 7: coming home by the mailbox, I would say, am I
Speaker 7: nuts put this book out? And then I went, you
Speaker 7: know what, through him, I'm done with this. I'm done
Speaker 7: with the fear. And you know, I've thought, hopefully we'll
Speaker 7: catch him with this DNA genetic genealogy. And that was
Speaker 7: a long time coming, and we waited a long time.
Speaker 7: I five years went by and I was still going, well,
Speaker 7: what's taking so long? So I'm very grateful they did it,
Speaker 7: but I was in a hurry to get him hot
Speaker 7: because my time was running out, and he's.
Speaker 8: Older than I had hoped.
Speaker 7: Actually, if he'd been sixty two instead of seventy two,
Speaker 7: he could be punished longer.
Speaker 5: Yeah, you did make the prediction, unlike many other people
Speaker 5: that you believed that he was in the same he
Speaker 5: was in Sacramento. Other people didn't believe that. But you
Speaker 5: believe that. Why did you believe that? And what did
Speaker 5: it feel like when you realized and discovered that was true.
Speaker 7: There are a lot of things that I said and
Speaker 7: murder on his mind that turned out.
Speaker 8: To be true. I predicted a lot of exactly what
Speaker 8: he turned out to be and where he was. What
Speaker 8: was interesting to me is, see.
Speaker 7: I'm from Sacramento, and I really literally was. I covered
Speaker 7: all the same areas he did because of my work,
Speaker 7: because of the fact that I like to go places
Speaker 7: on weekends. I was, you know, in Auburn, I was
Speaker 7: everywhere he was. It seemed like Grass Valley where his
Speaker 7: in laws were. I had relatives and just on and on.
Speaker 8: So it was interesting to.
Speaker 7: Know when I went to Citrus Heights, for example, and
Speaker 7: I grew up going to Folsom Lake. I little girl,
Speaker 7: I was out there all the time with my family.
Speaker 8: We went on our boat, we did you know, all.
Speaker 7: This different stuff, which is right down the street from
Speaker 7: Granite Bay where there have been some other murders that
Speaker 7: haven't been solved, and just different places. I was always
Speaker 7: out and about, and I knew the geography like the
Speaker 7: back of my hand. So it was interesting to know
Speaker 7: when I went to Citrus Heights, for example, that I
Speaker 7: could almost feel him.
Speaker 8: Literally.
Speaker 7: My son lived down there at the time, and I
Speaker 7: walked out there by myself one day and he lived
Speaker 7: right across the street from a school, right at the
Speaker 7: end of the street, and I just I thought, if
Speaker 7: I had the addresses of the places attack there, I
Speaker 7: absolutely know he's been on the street. I could feel it,
Speaker 7: and so I just, you know, because of the geography
Speaker 7: of it, because of the arrogance. It was mainly the
Speaker 7: arrogance of D'Angelo. I thought, this man is still there,
Speaker 7: he is sitting there, and he's watching all this go
Speaker 7: on around him, and.
Speaker 8: He thinks that we will never figure it out.
Speaker 7: And the reason I thought he thought that way, I
Speaker 7: thought he thinks that if he tells his family never
Speaker 7: ever put your DNA into a genealogy sider never send
Speaker 7: it into ancestry whatever. He thinks that they'll never find him,
Speaker 7: and so he sat there and apparently didn't have a
Speaker 7: plan B to escape. We'll never know, but he just
Speaker 7: sat there, and so I knew his arrogance was going
Speaker 7: to get him caught because he just sat there.
Speaker 5: Do you think he was aware of this advance in
Speaker 5: DNA technology, this genetic genealogy, and he was aware.
Speaker 8: Of it, Yeah, I think so.
Speaker 7: I just think that he was not even enough or
Speaker 7: didn't research it enough. I don't know what his thinking was,
Speaker 7: but I think that he really thought that if his
Speaker 7: immediate family did not supply any DNA, that he would
Speaker 7: be scott free, or that they would find him after
Speaker 7: he was already dead. I think he thought that it
Speaker 7: would take a while for him to be traced. I
Speaker 7: think that possibly he really didn't know about the ability
Speaker 7: to go back generation after generation after generation to find him,
Speaker 7: you know, just follow the family trees down was a
Speaker 7: three hundred years and he really didn't realize that because
Speaker 7: if he had, maybe he would have had a plan.
Speaker 5: Be Yeah, very interesting. He didn't have much of any
Speaker 5: options once he was arrested, mind you, with California's death penalty,
Speaker 5: and is there still a moratorium on it right now?
Speaker 5: I know they don't execute him anybody, so what's the difference.
Speaker 5: He certainly wouldn't be able to through the appeals process
Speaker 5: that we're entitled to him. This was the best thing
Speaker 5: that could ever happen, this team murders that he pled
Speaker 5: to and then a bunch of.
Speaker 7: Nobody. I was just gonna say, nobody's been executed in
Speaker 7: California in about fourteen years, so by the time he
Speaker 7: got through appealing, et cetera, he would be dead. So yeah,
Speaker 7: it's basically a death penalty. But the reality is is
Speaker 7: that if he's seventy four now and he lives ten years,
Speaker 7: all he really had to serve was ten years of
Speaker 7: what's a life sentence, So really all he's getting is
Speaker 7: about ten years unless he lives another fifteen and it
Speaker 7: certainly doesn't fit the crimes so well.
Speaker 5: I mean, I guess you'll never be totally satisfied that
Speaker 5: he was running a muck and for all those years
Speaker 5: and been able to evade justice for all those years.
Speaker 5: But it is an incredible achievement that he was caught,
Speaker 5: oh absolutely.
Speaker 7: And yeah, and everybody's grateful and I'm grateful.
Speaker 8: That he was caught.
Speaker 7: Also, my gosh, I'm glad to have answers. I'm sure
Speaker 7: everyone's glad to have answers and justice, and we're grateful
Speaker 7: to the criminal justice system for doing what they did.
Speaker 7: I mean, they worked really hard on it, and I'm
Speaker 7: not trying to discount that at all. But what I'm
Speaker 7: saying is is wouldn't have been nice if he had
Speaker 7: been younger, or if this had happened sooner, because when
Speaker 7: justice is delayed. The judge himself said that sometimes when
Speaker 7: justice is delayed this long, it's like justice being denied,
Speaker 7: or what I call it is weak justice only because
Speaker 7: he's not going to get to serve fifty years in prison,
Speaker 7: He's not going to get you know, executed. He's going
Speaker 7: to sit there for a short period of time. In reality,
Speaker 7: compared to what he did for forty some odd years,
Speaker 7: fifty years whatever he you know, when he was committing crimes.
Speaker 7: I mean, that's a huge difference between a huge disparity
Speaker 7: between fifty years of attacking and hurting people and ten
Speaker 7: fifteen years.
Speaker 8: In prison for it. You see the thing that I'm thinking.
Speaker 5: Well, the thing is, at the same time, I have
Speaker 5: to think of almost every other scenario when you know,
Speaker 5: the law enforcement finally catches up with a perpetrator and
Speaker 5: because of their age, they're giving their given concessions. Because
Speaker 5: of the age of the case, they have to make
Speaker 5: some negotiations in terms of a plea agreements, some bargaining
Speaker 5: negotiations are seem to be So what I'm saying is,
Speaker 5: with such a conclusive form of evidence, and you know,
Speaker 5: almost every type of evidence is under attack or supposedly
Speaker 5: is not so credible anymore that this one thing, this
Speaker 5: one technology, this one again. Law enforcement doesn't have too
Speaker 5: many happy endings to their stories, especially when it comes
Speaker 5: to murder. So this is about as good as it
Speaker 5: gets in terms of hope. And like you say, all
Speaker 5: these other ninety three cases were closed after that, serious
Speaker 5: cases were closed. So it does it seems to be
Speaker 5: again DNA. Thank God for DNA in the first place,
Speaker 5: and then now this further development seems to be again
Speaker 5: a bright spot in something in an area that doesn't
Speaker 5: have any kind spots.
Speaker 7: That's true from that perspective, yes, But from the perspective
Speaker 7: of the victims, he's suffered, all the women that he
Speaker 7: raped and harmed, all the men that were there, everything
Speaker 7: he did. The perspective of waiting forty five years for
Speaker 7: justice is, you know, you have to think about them
Speaker 7: that way. You know, a lot of things came out,
Speaker 7: you know, but it was such a long, long, long way.
Speaker 5: It is testament too when I talk to you, because
Speaker 5: I mean, you're the perfect person to talk to that
Speaker 5: you're not, you know, jumping up for joy right now.
Speaker 5: And when I spoke to you a couple of years ago,
Speaker 5: not so much either. Even when I spoke to Larry Crompton,
Speaker 5: Richard Shelby, it's more relief. It's more relief. And then
Speaker 5: at the same time, with all your research, you realize
Speaker 5: that all the missteps, all the it's not even missteps.
Speaker 5: You talk about that for years, these types of crimes,
Speaker 5: these types of victims were not a priority and based
Speaker 5: on funding, based on again priority in terms of the
Speaker 5: you know, the high murder rates that existed not so
Speaker 5: long ago, that that these types of rapes and then
Speaker 5: murders were discounted, are disregarded or downplayed for years, leading
Speaker 5: to some of the things where you say, a peeping
Speaker 5: tom turns into a burglar, turns into a rapist, turns
Speaker 5: in to a killer as right exemplified by in this case.
Speaker 8: Right.
Speaker 7: And one of the things in the book is an
Speaker 7: article about the fact that they need to do more
Speaker 7: studies on categorizing different types of burglars because they're actually
Speaker 7: what they call sexual burglars. They like BTK, he was
Speaker 7: excited at the idea of breaking into someone's home. It's
Speaker 7: called breaking and entering. Does that sound like something somebody
Speaker 7: does at rapes? But the fact is that they know
Speaker 7: they can classify now if they study it, and if
Speaker 7: they look into it further excuse me, they can figure
Speaker 7: out the high risk type of burglar when it comes
Speaker 7: to sexual attacks and sexual homicides. And so these are
Speaker 7: the kinds of things that I study and that I
Speaker 7: look into because the reality moving forward in solving crimes,
Speaker 7: besides DNA, is actually being able to pay attention to
Speaker 7: what kind of a person, what kind of a attacker
Speaker 7: is this, what kind of a burglar is he? What
Speaker 7: are the risk factors involved about what he's going to
Speaker 7: do next? And they can tell if they actually put
Speaker 7: a little bit of time into this, and they began
Speaker 7: to look at this in the nineteen nineties, but it
Speaker 7: really is something that we can use moving forward, because
Speaker 7: the reality is most burglaries are not cleared. They don't
Speaker 7: solve them. Most burglar happened when people are at home
Speaker 7: at night. At home at night, if somebody is a burglar,
Speaker 7: they decide to do something else while they're there at
Speaker 7: a crime of opportunity.
Speaker 8: But there are also burglars like BTK where he came in.
Speaker 7: He loves going into someone's house when.
Speaker 8: They weren't home.
Speaker 7: That was his first step before he became a killer.
Speaker 7: The same with t'angelo. He was a burglar, he was
Speaker 7: a peeper, a doctor. He knew that that was what
Speaker 7: his progression was going to be. He knew what he
Speaker 7: wanted to do. So did BTK. They had fantasized about
Speaker 7: it for years and years. In so people who come
Speaker 7: into your home at night in order to quote unquote
Speaker 7: burglarize you and take things. They don't take things of value.
Speaker 7: They want to take you. They want to harm you.
Speaker 7: They want to take everything from you, your safety, your person.
Speaker 7: They just want to hurt you. And so that's what
Speaker 7: they need to study, is what type of burglar are
Speaker 7: you and what harm do you do? How long should
Speaker 7: we put you away for this crime?
Speaker 8: Because you're this kind of a burglar. There are fetish burglars.
Speaker 7: You know. He used to come in and steal women's underwear,
Speaker 7: you know, that's all he did. And there's many other
Speaker 7: reports of those kinds of burglars, those kinds of freaky
Speaker 7: people that do that. And they can tell by looking
Speaker 7: at what they can categorize them, and they can keep
Speaker 7: us safer from these kinds of people if they really
Speaker 7: pay attention.
Speaker 8: In the criminal justice system.
Speaker 5: We talk about motive here and in your book you
Speaker 5: just discussed briefly the mention DiAngelo witnessed at ten years
Speaker 5: of age, his younger sister at seven years of age,
Speaker 5: I believe, being raped by two men, and the effect
Speaker 5: this had on DiAngelo in terms of this psycho sexual
Speaker 5: development at that time. Tell us a little bit about
Speaker 5: that and did that Was that an issue at all
Speaker 5: in this plea agreement, in the legal proceedings at all.
Speaker 7: No, they didn't talk about what harm he had. Well,
Speaker 7: they did talk about how he had been basically beaten
Speaker 7: or ignored, harmed from his family, from his parents, and
Speaker 7: that he was in charge of taking care of his
Speaker 7: siblings and so on, so there was neglect and there
Speaker 7: was harm. Yes, they did talk about that, but they
Speaker 7: didn't talk about this issue with the rape of his sister.
Speaker 7: That's something that nobody can prove at this point.
Speaker 8: It's just what was told by his sister.
Speaker 7: I believe that that happened, and I also know that
Speaker 7: when that connection was made for a ten year old
Speaker 7: boy watching something so horrific and then being told not
Speaker 7: to ever speak of it, that it took a toll
Speaker 7: on the entire family, I'm sure. But you know, it
Speaker 7: speaks to connecting something that he didn't understand maybe with
Speaker 7: you know, what he saw, what what sex meant, or
Speaker 7: what rape meant. So you know, there's a lot of
Speaker 7: traumas that happened to people who serial kill and whose
Speaker 7: serial rape, but a lot of traumas that happened to
Speaker 7: people don't turn them into serial killers. So, you know,
Speaker 7: I think he came the way he was from, you know,
Speaker 7: from the get go, I think he was already hardwired
Speaker 7: to have an addictive personality and this was his addiction.
Speaker 5: How about the idea of humiliation, because he was very
Speaker 5: interested in humiliating the women, but especially the couples, and
Speaker 5: so his behavior when he did this, when he attacked
Speaker 5: these couples was to definitely he enjoyed the humiliation. When
Speaker 5: I talk about humiliation, I just because of all the
Speaker 5: serial killers that at least claim that that was the
Speaker 5: issue that triggered them wanting to humiliate others and degrade others.
Speaker 5: How about the idea of his sexual inadequacies. Again, I'm
Speaker 5: not looking for any kinds of excuses, because there is
Speaker 5: no excuse for this. But is there anything in your
Speaker 5: mind to some of his background and some of his
Speaker 5: inadequacies that and you know, because you talk about you
Speaker 5: know him, tell us a little bit about what you
Speaker 5: think about what I've just mentioned.
Speaker 7: Well, obviously I'm not up close enough to know exactly
Speaker 7: what his original Well, I think that his original trauma really,
Speaker 7: or his original trigger when he put it that way,
Speaker 7: was his mom and his dad when they got divorced
Speaker 7: he was I think that's when he decided to kill
Speaker 7: probably for the first times. That was way back in
Speaker 7: the supties. So I think that his original trigger was
Speaker 7: his parents and just the whole family dynamic when he
Speaker 7: was treated so poorly and then his mom ended up
Speaker 7: with somebody else, and his dad left and he didn't
Speaker 7: see him really anymore, and just a lot of that stuff,
Speaker 7: and so he killed them. He killed Ultimately, he killed
Speaker 7: the whole couple. I mean, he killed man and the woman.
Speaker 7: So I think that was his initial trigger. But I
Speaker 7: also think that, you know, the sex thing was really
Speaker 7: not about sex. It was about power and control and
Speaker 7: and like you said, humiliation to have the man there
Speaker 7: know that his wife was being raped had to be
Speaker 7: the ultimate humiliation for the man and for the woman.
Speaker 7: So I think that probably eventually, when he met Bonnie,
Speaker 7: she was not his original trigger. I think she probably
Speaker 7: it sort of set him off at that point when
Speaker 7: she rejected him. Maybe you know, went through a rage
Speaker 7: over that. I'm pretty sure that's what happened. But his
Speaker 7: original trigger, I think was his parents and his need
Speaker 7: for power and control. The reality is is my bottom
Speaker 7: line for him is this. He wanted power and control
Speaker 7: over everything and everyone, but ultimately he had no power
Speaker 7: and no control over himself. His addiction was this to
Speaker 7: kill and kill and kill and harm people everywhere he could,
Speaker 7: So he couldn't control his own addiction to this behavior,
Speaker 7: and so he had no power and control over himself.
Speaker 7: And that's my bottom line for him.
Speaker 5: When it comes to Lymon Smith and Charlene Charlene, what
Speaker 5: did you discover that? I mean, the thing is it
Speaker 5: was particularly savage attacks on these two people. You examined
Speaker 5: and explored the possible connections. How was it that this
Speaker 5: person was about to be a judge, about to be
Speaker 5: appointed a judge? Tell us what the possible connection would be?
Speaker 5: Where would he have met why? I know these questions
Speaker 5: were eating a way at you. What did you find? Well?
Speaker 7: I still haven't figured out the connection. I've looked at
Speaker 7: a million different things. Of course, he had people that
Speaker 7: Limon Smith's had people that he knew in Sacramento.
Speaker 8: His dad lived there.
Speaker 7: He lived there too, back in foothel Farms. So I
Speaker 7: tried to figure out is there a Sacramento connection? Even
Speaker 7: how Hal Barker, who was a sheriff also was his friend,
Speaker 7: you know, law enforcement connections cases that Mimon may have
Speaker 7: tried that that got him in the public eye. I mean,
Speaker 7: I really don't know. Obviously, I don't know that part
Speaker 7: of the investigations in detail. That's not part of what
Speaker 7: I've been shared or been privy to. When an open
Speaker 7: murder investigation is going on, they don't tell you anything,
Speaker 7: so I can't really speak to that. But what I
Speaker 7: can speak to is what I've tried to figure out personally.
Speaker 7: Was there a connection had he had they been seen
Speaker 7: in Sacramento? And you know, because he stocked people from
Speaker 7: place to place literally from maybe Chico. Some victims had
Speaker 7: lived in San Francisco and moved elsewhere, and he could
Speaker 7: have run across him as Fresno and killed like the
Speaker 7: majories in Sacramento. She went to Presno State, so did
Speaker 7: Sharon Huddle. What are the connections? There are so many,
Speaker 7: And he was an excellent stalker, and he had access
Speaker 7: to information and he could find where you were and
Speaker 7: where you went. And so that's what I think he did.
Speaker 7: And he used colleges and different places like that to
Speaker 7: stalk women like that's snelling and what he did at
Speaker 7: the College of the Sequoias in order to figure out
Speaker 7: who was who and what was what? You know, It's
Speaker 7: like he was an excellent stalker. So how did he
Speaker 7: find Charlene and Lyman? Maybe he did see them in Sacramento?
Speaker 8: Who knows? If he was a.
Speaker 7: Zodiac and was in Tahoe and it's still geographically not
Speaker 7: that far away, don Alas.
Speaker 8: Was killed or disappeared up here, never to be seen again.
Speaker 7: So there's so many things that he could have done
Speaker 7: that are connected by and I'm sure he kept really
Speaker 7: good notes.
Speaker 8: Of who he knew, because he could call somebody ten
Speaker 8: years after he had harmed them.
Speaker 7: He knew the call, he knew how to get in
Speaker 7: touch with them. He was one of the most meticulous.
Speaker 7: He has to have OCD on top of everything else,
Speaker 7: because I know that there are notebooks somewhere that spell
Speaker 7: out everything he did. Who he knew, what their phone
Speaker 7: numbers were, how to get in touch with them. He
Speaker 7: was a law enforcement person. There's real estate connections in
Speaker 7: his family. He just had access to information, and so
Speaker 7: he followed this. One poor guy who was a teacher
Speaker 7: who was murdered in Sacramento area, was beaten disast legend
Speaker 7: with the log same as Charlene and Lyman, mister.
Speaker 8: Burrow you o r uk.
Speaker 7: He also had moved from somewhere else.
Speaker 8: He was a teacher.
Speaker 7: There are many teachers that Diangelos seemed to the medical people.
Speaker 7: People talked about that in the beginning, nurses, medical people.
Speaker 7: There's many There's several murders of nurses and cremento from
Speaker 7: the seventies, So I mean it goes on and on,
Speaker 7: which is why there are four books. There's a lot
Speaker 7: of information, but the reality too for me, just so
Speaker 7: you know, is the murders that I list.
Speaker 8: Of course some of them.
Speaker 7: Were committed by somebody else, there's no doubt about it.
Speaker 7: But the point is is that these murders are unsolved.
Speaker 7: So whether di'angelo did it or somebody else did it,
Speaker 7: they need to be looked at. The DNA needs to
Speaker 7: be looked at, The information needs to be looked at
Speaker 7: so that we can give people answers for the nineteen
Speaker 7: seventies murders, for the nineteen eighties murders. This in the
Speaker 7: state of California alone, the murder statistics are ridiculous, of
Speaker 7: unsolved crimes, unsolved murders against women and girls.
Speaker 8: And that's why I do this.
Speaker 5: Yes, absolutely so, Yeah, there are staggering numbers, staggering numbers
Speaker 5: of missing, staggering numbers of rapes on tested rape kits.
Speaker 5: Like you said, things have to change, and this is
Speaker 5: a call for dramatic change, yes, isn't it.
Speaker 7: I think so it's time. I mean, statistically, one of
Speaker 7: the things that shocked me again the rape statistics stabilized
Speaker 7: in the eighties, but just in the last two years,
Speaker 7: from twenty sixteen forward, the statistics on murder against women
Speaker 7: has gone up again.
Speaker 8: Same with men.
Speaker 7: It's not as huge, but it's discouraging because it's going
Speaker 7: up again. And of course I'm I'm sure they're including
Speaker 7: mass murders and all this other stuff that's been going on.
Speaker 7: But the reality is is thattistics against murders on women
Speaker 7: have also gone up again in the state of California.
Speaker 5: Yeah, you say that victims of homicide in the US
Speaker 5: grew by twenty one percent in twenty sixteen compared to
Speaker 5: twenty fifteen, which was the highest recorded level since two
Speaker 5: thousand and seven.
Speaker 8: Correct.
Speaker 5: It increased among males, but not anywhere near maybe a
Speaker 5: third of that, So very very disturbing for those that
Speaker 5: are listening to you have your first book is about
Speaker 5: this series about the East Area rapists, Original night Stalker,
Speaker 5: Golden State Killer, Murder On His Mind, serial Killer, and
Speaker 5: there's two editions, The Creep among Us and The What
Speaker 5: If Zodiac and now Endgame. I'll wanna thank you very
Speaker 5: much and for coming on and talking about endgame. End
Speaker 5: game of the most dangerous game Golden State Killer. For
Speaker 5: those that might want to take a look at your
Speaker 5: other work. Is there a Facebook page website? Can you
Speaker 5: tell us about that well?
Speaker 8: And pen at WordPress the WordPress site.
Speaker 7: And then also I have an ndpen Facebook page, but
Speaker 7: you have to message me or send me a friend request,
Speaker 7: so that's the most direct way to get hold of me,
Speaker 7: or and Pen thirteen Gmail if you want to ask
Speaker 7: any questions.
Speaker 5: And just the last question, when is this book released?
Speaker 5: Is it available now?
Speaker 7: It is on Amazon right now. I am going to
Speaker 7: add something to it eventually, and anytime I've done that,
Speaker 7: I say in the back of the book.
Speaker 8: Always check the back of the book.
Speaker 7: You can email me for any additional information or chapters.
Speaker 7: I do have one thing from Larry Crompton. I'm going
Speaker 7: to add it in today. His granddaughter was born or
Speaker 7: great granddaughter was born. So we got interrupted at the
Speaker 7: very end of adding this into the book, so that'll
Speaker 7: be added in. Congratulations Larry on your great granddaughter. And
Speaker 7: so it's been a hectic a couple of weeks. He
Speaker 7: actually went to Sacramento to was at the sentencing, got
Speaker 7: to talk to Larry Pool and a bunch of other
Speaker 7: people that he had worked with years ago. So he
Speaker 7: ran down to Sacramento and then he ran back home
Speaker 7: and his grand great granddaughter was born.
Speaker 5: So absolutely great, well, congratulations and end game of the
Speaker 5: most dangerous game. Golden State Killer has been an absolute pleasure.
Speaker 5: Thank you very much.
Speaker 8: I appreciate it you too, Thank you, thank you, good night.