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Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK Every 24 00:01:25.400 --> 00:01:29.079 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 25 00:01:29.159 --> 00:01:33.640 infamous killers in true crime history true Murder with your host, 26 00:01:34.079 --> 00:01:36.560 journalist and author Dan Zupanski. 27 00:01:46.560 --> 00:01:52.120 Good evening, Endgame of the Most Dangerous Game Golden State 28 00:01:52.239 --> 00:01:55.200 Killer takes you through the journey of trying to find 29 00:01:55.400 --> 00:01:59.560 a serial killer, serial cat burglar, a serial rapist, and 30 00:01:59.640 --> 00:02:03.879 a serial killer. After a lifetime of tracing and tracking, 31 00:02:04.400 --> 00:02:07.239 waiting and watching, one of the most dangerous serial killers 32 00:02:07.280 --> 00:02:10.759 in the state of California has ever seen. And Penn 33 00:02:11.120 --> 00:02:13.759 takes us through the chapters, including the guilty Please of 34 00:02:13.879 --> 00:02:20.000 Joseph James DiAngelo June twenty ninth, twenty twenty. Endgame. At Last, 35 00:02:20.400 --> 00:02:24.000 the criminal will spend his final days in prison. This 36 00:02:24.120 --> 00:02:28.199 is the place he has belonged for decades. Endgame was 37 00:02:28.280 --> 00:02:31.639 how it was supposed to be. The book that were featuring. 38 00:02:31.680 --> 00:02:35.759 This evening is Endgame of the Most Dangerous Game, Golden 39 00:02:35.800 --> 00:02:39.960 State Killer, with my special guest journalist and author and Penn. 40 00:02:40.159 --> 00:02:42.400 Welcome back to the program, and thank you so much 41 00:02:42.400 --> 00:02:45.759 for this interview. And Penn, thank you, Yeah. 42 00:02:45.560 --> 00:02:46.280 Thank you so much. 43 00:02:46.280 --> 00:02:47.080 I appreciate it. 44 00:02:48.120 --> 00:02:52.479 Thank you so much. Congratulations on being able to write 45 00:02:53.360 --> 00:02:57.479 a suitable ending to this incredible series of books that 46 00:02:57.520 --> 00:03:02.800 you've written, and this investigation undertaken for virtually most of 47 00:03:02.840 --> 00:03:07.599 your life, as we will find out, Let's talk about 48 00:03:09.280 --> 00:03:14.039 these series of events. Just before you had heard about 49 00:03:14.039 --> 00:03:17.560 the arrest, tell us who you were communicating with and 50 00:03:19.080 --> 00:03:24.599 what you knew about the possibility of genealogy, genetic genealogy 51 00:03:24.639 --> 00:03:29.479 being involved with this case, and then tell us about 52 00:03:29.680 --> 00:03:30.240 the arrest. 53 00:03:31.560 --> 00:03:34.400 Right well. Prior to the arrest, I had been, of 54 00:03:34.439 --> 00:03:38.199 course talking to Larry Crompton for quite some time. I 55 00:03:38.240 --> 00:03:42.280 had spoken to volunteers who worked on the case in Sacramento, 56 00:03:42.360 --> 00:03:46.599 briefly because Larry put me in touch with them based 57 00:03:46.639 --> 00:03:48.680 on some of the things I was telling him I 58 00:03:48.719 --> 00:03:52.120 thought the guy was. And what was interesting about that 59 00:03:52.479 --> 00:03:55.800 was they had been investigating someone at that very moment 60 00:03:55.960 --> 00:03:58.439 that had been exactly what I was talking to Larry about, 61 00:03:58.479 --> 00:04:01.840 without having any idea that they had been looking into 62 00:04:01.879 --> 00:04:04.159 this guy that was from my neck. 63 00:04:03.960 --> 00:04:04.639 Of the woods. 64 00:04:04.919 --> 00:04:07.759 So it was interesting to get some perspective on what 65 00:04:07.840 --> 00:04:12.039 they had been doing voluntarily for quite some time, bringing 66 00:04:12.520 --> 00:04:16.279 persons of interest forward for a real close look and 67 00:04:16.319 --> 00:04:19.879 see if the DNA profile matched and So that was 68 00:04:19.920 --> 00:04:26.680 a brief time frame during twenty sixteen, and I met 69 00:04:26.680 --> 00:04:30.839 with them in Sacramento as well as lots of different 70 00:04:31.160 --> 00:04:36.879 phone conversations with I spoke to Paul Belly down there. 71 00:04:37.000 --> 00:04:42.480 I spoke to different jurisdictions, you know. I tried getting 72 00:04:42.480 --> 00:04:45.360 in contact with Ventura Homicide to see if there was 73 00:04:45.399 --> 00:04:48.959 a cold case unit, and of course there wasn't. I've 74 00:04:48.959 --> 00:04:54.120 spoken to the FBI, I spoke to different people just 75 00:04:54.160 --> 00:04:56.800 to try to figure out what, you know, the connections 76 00:04:56.839 --> 00:05:00.560 were and how we could figure this out. To Paul 77 00:05:00.600 --> 00:05:04.720 Holes several times on the phone and gave him some 78 00:05:04.800 --> 00:05:07.600 information and we sort of chatted back and forth about 79 00:05:07.879 --> 00:05:11.439 possible connections between Sacramento and Bentura and. 80 00:05:11.360 --> 00:05:12.000 Things like that. 81 00:05:12.160 --> 00:05:14.720 So there were a lot of different phone conversations prior 82 00:05:14.800 --> 00:05:17.000 to the arrest with quite a few different people. 83 00:05:18.959 --> 00:05:23.160 Now there was the arrest, and I've interviewed you after 84 00:05:23.199 --> 00:05:30.360 this arrest and also Larry Crompton, Richard Shelby after this arrest, 85 00:05:30.639 --> 00:05:35.000 and so what did you and others that were looking 86 00:05:35.040 --> 00:05:38.040 for answers, what did you find out in the interim 87 00:05:38.439 --> 00:05:44.120 between the arrest and then this sentencing Just recently in 88 00:05:44.199 --> 00:05:46.839 twenty twenty here just very very recently. 89 00:05:47.920 --> 00:05:50.319 Well, actually, as you can tell, there was a lot 90 00:05:50.399 --> 00:05:53.279 since a couple of the books were five hundred pages. 91 00:05:53.639 --> 00:05:56.800 But there's just so much information. Of course, there's so 92 00:05:56.839 --> 00:05:59.959 many murders that have been committed in the state of California, 93 00:06:00.600 --> 00:06:03.160 and trying to track a serial killer after you know 94 00:06:03.199 --> 00:06:07.560 who he is was an interesting task. But there are 95 00:06:07.600 --> 00:06:11.959 so many murders that have a signature to them. A 96 00:06:11.959 --> 00:06:15.720 lot of people are like, well, what's his signature. Basically, 97 00:06:16.000 --> 00:06:18.439 one of the signatures he had was his ability to 98 00:06:18.800 --> 00:06:21.680 attack and move on, and that's what worked for him 99 00:06:21.680 --> 00:06:26.000 across jurisdictional lines. And I am certain that the Angelo 100 00:06:26.120 --> 00:06:29.759 knew where the county lines were and what jurisdiction he 101 00:06:29.839 --> 00:06:33.120 went from place to place, So that's one of the 102 00:06:33.160 --> 00:06:36.319 things that kept him free. He just would attack somewhere 103 00:06:36.759 --> 00:06:39.000 and move on. He would attack and go home. 104 00:06:39.240 --> 00:06:40.079 Whatever he did. 105 00:06:40.160 --> 00:06:43.480 He always went from one county to the other to 106 00:06:43.920 --> 00:06:46.720 do what he wanted to do, to commit crimes, and 107 00:06:46.759 --> 00:06:49.920 then go home or go somewhere else. So that was 108 00:06:49.959 --> 00:06:52.600 one of the things that we kind of knew he did. 109 00:06:53.160 --> 00:06:55.160 Paul and I talked about it, and he talked about 110 00:06:55.160 --> 00:06:58.480 it in interviews where he said that the Angelo would 111 00:06:58.600 --> 00:07:01.399 drive down the freeway and then a few hours later 112 00:07:01.439 --> 00:07:04.800 he'd hit someplace else, and that's absolutely true. 113 00:07:04.959 --> 00:07:11.199 So now you talk about all the research that you 114 00:07:11.240 --> 00:07:15.240 did and all the investigating you did throughout this entire 115 00:07:15.319 --> 00:07:19.120 series and up until the arrest and then following the rest, 116 00:07:19.199 --> 00:07:25.240 and now this book and game tell us about the 117 00:07:25.360 --> 00:07:29.879 June twenty ninth appearance this year. What was that for 118 00:07:30.079 --> 00:07:33.600 and what was gained in your mind from watching this? 119 00:07:35.439 --> 00:07:36.279 Well, what was. 120 00:07:36.560 --> 00:07:39.720 Very painful about it and what was interesting about it 121 00:07:39.839 --> 00:07:45.360 was watching him admit guilt and the way that he did. 122 00:07:45.360 --> 00:07:49.480 It was really pretty awful to say, I admit and 123 00:07:49.879 --> 00:07:52.879 guilty and that's all he was. 124 00:07:53.120 --> 00:07:56.000 Just the whole thing was really. 125 00:07:55.759 --> 00:07:58.560 Very difficult to watch for everyone and the people involved 126 00:07:58.560 --> 00:08:01.560 that were there. It had to be horrendous to sit 127 00:08:01.600 --> 00:08:05.160 there for eight hours and listen to this one attack 128 00:08:05.199 --> 00:08:08.680 after the other, and most all of them were pretty 129 00:08:08.759 --> 00:08:13.079 much the same, just over and over and over. You 130 00:08:13.160 --> 00:08:14.879 have to take a break from it once in a while. 131 00:08:14.879 --> 00:08:17.160 I had to push pause and walk away. It was 132 00:08:17.240 --> 00:08:19.800 just so horrendous what he did to these people. 133 00:08:21.839 --> 00:08:26.680 How detailed were the descriptions of the murders and rapes 134 00:08:26.680 --> 00:08:27.600 and crimes. 135 00:08:27.240 --> 00:08:32.000 Themselves extremely detailed, which is why it was so horrendous 136 00:08:32.039 --> 00:08:35.799 to listen to. And I hope to never have to 137 00:08:36.840 --> 00:08:40.000 hear or experience anything like that. Just like these ladies 138 00:08:40.000 --> 00:08:42.759 and these victims who were there, I mean, it's just 139 00:08:43.720 --> 00:08:48.960 I can't even fathom how they must have felt sitting there. So, yeah, 140 00:08:49.000 --> 00:08:56.240 it was eight hours of just exhausting, emotionally draining, horrendous 141 00:08:56.279 --> 00:09:00.720 detail about everything, and for him to sit there like 142 00:09:00.799 --> 00:09:03.799 he was trying to pretend he was weak while he 143 00:09:03.879 --> 00:09:06.320 admitted was just awful. 144 00:09:06.799 --> 00:09:12.240 So let's talk about that before we talk about what 145 00:09:12.360 --> 00:09:15.600 must have been the most difficult was to hear details, 146 00:09:15.879 --> 00:09:19.399 intimate details of the murder of your relatives, Lyman Smith 147 00:09:19.759 --> 00:09:24.039 and Charlene. But tell us about what was said in 148 00:09:24.080 --> 00:09:28.919 court or proven in court in terms of his in 149 00:09:29.000 --> 00:09:31.919 terms of his health. You have a dramatic photo in 150 00:09:31.960 --> 00:09:35.000 the book two photos after his arrest and then two 151 00:09:35.080 --> 00:09:38.240 years later, and it's a dramatic difference. But tell us 152 00:09:38.320 --> 00:09:42.080 what some things that were revealed in court to dispute 153 00:09:42.120 --> 00:09:44.559 his appearance at court. 154 00:09:45.919 --> 00:09:49.879 Well, he basically really was in pretty good shape. I mean, 155 00:09:49.919 --> 00:09:53.360 he acted like he was younger up until his arrest 156 00:09:53.480 --> 00:09:56.639 and then he immediately began to lose weight, and everybody 157 00:09:56.720 --> 00:09:59.200 kept thinking that he was going to die before he 158 00:09:59.240 --> 00:10:03.559 ever made it to or to court. And you know, 159 00:10:03.639 --> 00:10:07.240 what I had heard through the prosecutor's office was that 160 00:10:07.320 --> 00:10:11.600 he was exercising and lifting weights and basically the food's 161 00:10:11.639 --> 00:10:14.480 not that great in jail, so I knew he was strong. 162 00:10:14.720 --> 00:10:18.000 That he just looked like he was playing a part 163 00:10:18.120 --> 00:10:21.399 like many people thought. And of course recently we saw 164 00:10:21.519 --> 00:10:24.759 on television that he was moving about his cell. He 165 00:10:24.840 --> 00:10:28.440 was very agile, he could reach, and he was very 166 00:10:29.240 --> 00:10:32.399 controlled in his movements. He was strong, so it was 167 00:10:32.519 --> 00:10:34.360 just all an act, and he was called out on 168 00:10:34.440 --> 00:10:38.879 that he was trying to I'm sure, get some ability 169 00:10:38.960 --> 00:10:40.879 to go to a place where he could be in 170 00:10:40.919 --> 00:10:44.279 a maybe an old people's prison, I don't know, but 171 00:10:44.519 --> 00:10:48.039 the point is he was trying to be housed in 172 00:10:48.080 --> 00:10:50.360 a safe place, and I don't think that. 173 00:10:50.279 --> 00:10:51.120 Flew very well. 174 00:10:52.679 --> 00:10:52.879 Right. 175 00:10:54.159 --> 00:10:58.000 Yeah, now, I know it's difficult, but what did you 176 00:10:58.159 --> 00:11:04.639 learn in this horrible recitation reciting of the murders of 177 00:11:04.720 --> 00:11:07.679 Lymon Smith and his wife Charlene? 178 00:11:08.399 --> 00:11:11.799 Actually know it's there was nothing that I hadn't heard 179 00:11:11.840 --> 00:11:17.519 before personally. When I was told about the murders by 180 00:11:17.600 --> 00:11:21.519 my family. It was such a horrendous u I heard 181 00:11:21.559 --> 00:11:23.960 all the details really that he might have been peeping 182 00:11:24.399 --> 00:11:27.320 watching them prior to coming in, that he had prowled 183 00:11:27.360 --> 00:11:31.120 prior to that in the neighborhood that he had. You know, 184 00:11:31.799 --> 00:11:36.120 Charlene was feeling like someone was watching her or being 185 00:11:36.279 --> 00:11:39.840 you know, stalked. So there was really nothing new that 186 00:11:40.000 --> 00:11:44.440 I had heard she you know, they they complied, They 187 00:11:44.440 --> 00:11:48.279 did everything that was asked of them. And like every 188 00:11:48.919 --> 00:11:52.679 other murder or even if we talk about the Zodiac 189 00:11:52.879 --> 00:11:57.600 for example, the thing that that di'angelo did and the 190 00:11:57.600 --> 00:12:00.440 Golden State killer always did was trying to get his 191 00:12:00.600 --> 00:12:02.600 victims to feel like, you know, well see if you 192 00:12:02.639 --> 00:12:04.399 do this, I won't kill you. But he threatened to 193 00:12:04.440 --> 00:12:07.559 kill them always right and many times the East Very 194 00:12:07.679 --> 00:12:10.159 rapist he didn't kill them as the East Area rapist, 195 00:12:10.639 --> 00:12:13.360 you know, but but what he did was try to 196 00:12:13.519 --> 00:12:15.360 tell him, hey, you know, you need to tie him 197 00:12:15.440 --> 00:12:19.799 up and so on. And the thing that he did, 198 00:12:19.879 --> 00:12:23.519 which was consistent throughout when he killed couples was the 199 00:12:23.519 --> 00:12:26.600 way that he tied them. He tied them, you know, 200 00:12:27.360 --> 00:12:29.039 the same way, over and over again. 201 00:12:29.399 --> 00:12:31.679 And what he did, what he said was the. 202 00:12:31.559 --> 00:12:34.519 Same over and over, which is why I thought, and 203 00:12:34.600 --> 00:12:37.799 I think that the persona that he had as Zodiac, 204 00:12:38.279 --> 00:12:43.279 especially at Lake bary Essa, was very similar. Actually it 205 00:12:43.320 --> 00:12:46.799 was identical what he said and what he did. The 206 00:12:46.840 --> 00:12:51.320 only difference was he used a knife, right. 207 00:12:52.559 --> 00:12:55.320 You right in this And I guess we can go 208 00:12:55.360 --> 00:12:58.240 on this little detour for a moment, because I found 209 00:12:58.240 --> 00:13:02.240 this very interesting that you felt that he was you 210 00:13:02.240 --> 00:13:05.080 believe he's a zodiac one and the same, but also 211 00:13:05.200 --> 00:13:11.039 that regardless, D'Angelo was influenced by certain movies. I thought 212 00:13:11.039 --> 00:13:14.759 this very interesting. Tell us briefly about this, what's your thoughts? 213 00:13:14.799 --> 00:13:17.960 Well, you know, it all sounds really far fetched, I'm sure, 214 00:13:18.000 --> 00:13:21.600 but the reality for Joseph di'angelo is this. 215 00:13:22.519 --> 00:13:24.960 He is a dramatic. He likes drama. 216 00:13:25.120 --> 00:13:28.759 He likes to do a show, which is what he 217 00:13:28.799 --> 00:13:32.200 really did as the Eastern Ey rapist. He communicated with 218 00:13:32.320 --> 00:13:36.759 law enforcement briefly and the media. He also did the 219 00:13:36.799 --> 00:13:38.840 same thing over and over. He loved to read about 220 00:13:38.879 --> 00:13:43.519 himself in the newspaper. So he was very dramatic and 221 00:13:43.759 --> 00:13:47.960 so that was an influence that he probably gained as 222 00:13:48.000 --> 00:13:52.200 a kid watching television from the nineteen fifties and nineteen sixties, 223 00:13:52.200 --> 00:13:55.559 there were shows on TV and there's a few movies 224 00:13:55.639 --> 00:13:59.559 that I'm sure were classic movies he probably saw, and 225 00:13:59.600 --> 00:14:02.879 one of them had to do with Charlie chan at 226 00:14:02.919 --> 00:14:05.360 the Treasure Island of all Things. And of course a 227 00:14:05.360 --> 00:14:08.000 lot of people who talk about Zodiac know about that, 228 00:14:08.919 --> 00:14:12.159 but the reality is there was a character in there 229 00:14:12.240 --> 00:14:15.399 with a disguise, and when I found interesting, and that 230 00:14:15.519 --> 00:14:19.039 really the only thing that I found connected in my 231 00:14:19.200 --> 00:14:19.720 mind to. 232 00:14:21.159 --> 00:14:22.240 What the influence might have. 233 00:14:22.240 --> 00:14:25.600 Been from that movie was the fact that his costume 234 00:14:25.840 --> 00:14:31.080 as a Zodiac at Lake Uryssa that day was deceiving 235 00:14:31.200 --> 00:14:33.919 in that he could have been any height, any weight, 236 00:14:34.120 --> 00:14:36.360 any you know. That was the thing that stood out 237 00:14:36.399 --> 00:14:39.480 to me from that movie was that many different people 238 00:14:39.519 --> 00:14:41.440 put on that costume and you couldn't tell who was 239 00:14:41.440 --> 00:14:43.799 in there. And so that's what I gained from that, 240 00:14:44.480 --> 00:14:49.360 And that really was his drama. That he controlled the narrative, 241 00:14:49.440 --> 00:14:52.679 control the media, control law enforcement. He wanted to control 242 00:14:52.879 --> 00:14:57.919 everybody and everything, and so that's what I gathered from 243 00:14:58.000 --> 00:14:59.559 his drama. 244 00:15:00.399 --> 00:15:00.960 It's the show. 245 00:15:01.080 --> 00:15:04.320 What about the influence of the Most Dangerous Game. 246 00:15:07.399 --> 00:15:11.600 The influence of that book. You know, when you talk 247 00:15:11.639 --> 00:15:15.000 about in that movie too. I guess really what you 248 00:15:15.159 --> 00:15:17.480 talk about is there's a couple of different ones that 249 00:15:17.840 --> 00:15:24.440 I mentioned in there, but he really one of them 250 00:15:24.559 --> 00:15:27.559 is about the movie The Dangerous Game and basically what's 251 00:15:27.559 --> 00:15:31.519 going on as people are hunting people, and that's really 252 00:15:31.559 --> 00:15:34.000 what he was doing. He was hunting people, and he 253 00:15:34.039 --> 00:15:37.320 was a killing machine, and he killed every way he 254 00:15:37.360 --> 00:15:41.039 could in every type of situation. And he was not 255 00:15:41.240 --> 00:15:45.000 married to and not connected to one way of killing. 256 00:15:45.080 --> 00:15:46.720 He didn't care how he killed. 257 00:15:47.159 --> 00:15:48.279 He just killed. 258 00:15:51.279 --> 00:15:55.159 Now back to this June twenty ninth, who were in 259 00:15:55.279 --> 00:16:01.360 attendance and again just try to what was the atmosphere 260 00:16:01.360 --> 00:16:06.360 that you saw at this hearing with the Angelo and 261 00:16:06.440 --> 00:16:10.159 these victims. 262 00:16:08.480 --> 00:16:13.600 Well, the victims, rape victims, murder victims' families were there. 263 00:16:14.840 --> 00:16:17.960 Obviously it doesn't show real well on YouTube who exactly 264 00:16:18.039 --> 00:16:24.000 is there with masks on during COVID, But basically I 265 00:16:24.039 --> 00:16:27.200 know that quite a few people were in attendance that 266 00:16:27.360 --> 00:16:31.200 had been personally affected by him, and rape victims and 267 00:16:31.759 --> 00:16:36.200 people who originally could not have claimed anything because a 268 00:16:36.240 --> 00:16:38.600 statute of limitations had run out on some of the 269 00:16:38.679 --> 00:16:41.320 rapes that he did in fact admit to and I 270 00:16:41.399 --> 00:16:44.440 was really glad to see that they did that. I'm 271 00:16:44.519 --> 00:16:47.639 certain that the victims of those crimes were glad to 272 00:16:47.679 --> 00:16:52.279 see that, and they felt maybe they had had justice. 273 00:16:52.600 --> 00:16:54.360 But so that was a good thing. 274 00:16:55.440 --> 00:16:59.639 But it was pretty serious and pretty daunting and pretty awful. 275 00:17:01.360 --> 00:17:05.160 So what was the statement that he made when he 276 00:17:05.240 --> 00:17:07.839 had the opportunity, Well. 277 00:17:07.680 --> 00:17:11.400 At the end during the sentencing, of course, I didn't 278 00:17:11.440 --> 00:17:15.200 expect that. I actually I'm not surprised usually anymore by 279 00:17:15.359 --> 00:17:20.720 anything that happens or what anybody does, but that surprised me. 280 00:17:21.559 --> 00:17:24.519 I didn't know that. When they were going to read 281 00:17:25.279 --> 00:17:31.200 statements from his family, it seemed really almost inappropriate in 282 00:17:31.200 --> 00:17:33.359 a way. I understand why they do it, but it 283 00:17:33.400 --> 00:17:36.640 seemed they're reading those right in front of the victims 284 00:17:36.680 --> 00:17:39.920 of this man, about how wonderful he was as a 285 00:17:40.000 --> 00:17:43.720 father and so on, and it just seemed, my word 286 00:17:43.759 --> 00:17:48.240 today is awful. But when he stood up, of course, 287 00:17:48.400 --> 00:17:51.240 he stood up without any problem, and he spoke in 288 00:17:51.279 --> 00:17:55.759 his own voice finally, and I just sat there saying, 289 00:17:55.839 --> 00:17:58.839 oh my god. I couldn't believe that he was going 290 00:17:58.920 --> 00:18:02.400 to actually talk. And so I'm sure there were quite 291 00:18:02.400 --> 00:18:06.759 a few people that probably felt that way. But his statement. 292 00:18:07.119 --> 00:18:08.759 I thought, why in the heck did he do that? 293 00:18:08.960 --> 00:18:12.640 What did he possibly have to gain from that? And 294 00:18:12.720 --> 00:18:15.039 there were two things that came to my mind, and 295 00:18:15.079 --> 00:18:18.319 one was he was apologizing to his family. He wasn't 296 00:18:18.359 --> 00:18:22.680 apologizing to his victims. He has probably taken the opportunity 297 00:18:22.759 --> 00:18:26.880 to say he was sorry to his own family. And also, 298 00:18:27.279 --> 00:18:30.559 why not take advantage of the last moments that he 299 00:18:30.599 --> 00:18:33.599 could speak and once again had the stage and be 300 00:18:33.759 --> 00:18:37.200 dramatic and know that that's what would be printed in 301 00:18:37.279 --> 00:18:40.440 the news media, and that's what would be shown pictures 302 00:18:40.480 --> 00:18:43.799 of and so of course he couldn't resist, and so 303 00:18:43.960 --> 00:18:44.640 that's why I. 304 00:18:44.559 --> 00:18:45.240 Think he did it. 305 00:18:48.160 --> 00:18:50.799 I read in your book was a surprise was that 306 00:18:50.839 --> 00:18:55.640 there was something written by his brother in law. Tell 307 00:18:55.759 --> 00:18:56.640 us a little bit about that. 308 00:18:58.359 --> 00:19:01.160 Oh, just I don't know what he wrote, really, I 309 00:19:01.160 --> 00:19:04.680 didn't read it. I didn't buy it. I know that 310 00:19:04.759 --> 00:19:07.680 he was trying to promote it by saying that he 311 00:19:07.799 --> 00:19:12.400 was going to shed some light on Joseph DiAngelo's behaviors. 312 00:19:12.480 --> 00:19:15.880 What he missed possibly and maybe should have seen as 313 00:19:16.000 --> 00:19:19.319 kind of odd. But I haven't read it personally, so 314 00:19:19.400 --> 00:19:21.400 I don't really know. I can't really speak. 315 00:19:21.079 --> 00:19:21.720 To what's in it. 316 00:19:22.279 --> 00:19:24.960 I do know that one of the things that was 317 00:19:25.039 --> 00:19:29.200 interesting was just one photograph, and that was from the 318 00:19:29.319 --> 00:19:32.400 video he had posted to promote his book of he 319 00:19:32.759 --> 00:19:36.359 and James Huttle and D'Angelo on the boat out in 320 00:19:36.400 --> 00:19:41.160 the bay down by Pittsburgh, California, which is near Antioch 321 00:19:41.319 --> 00:19:45.279 in Contracosta County. And so what it did was make 322 00:19:45.319 --> 00:19:48.519 me think, hmm, what happened down there in that area? 323 00:19:49.279 --> 00:19:52.240 And so I looked on newspapers and looked around, and 324 00:19:52.799 --> 00:19:57.440 there were lots of murders. And you know, just because 325 00:19:57.480 --> 00:20:01.480 people talk about him stopping in nineteen eighty six, of 326 00:20:01.480 --> 00:20:04.640 course most of us know he didn't. And so there 327 00:20:04.640 --> 00:20:07.640 are murders in the eighties and the nineties and so 328 00:20:07.759 --> 00:20:15.119 on that you can look at to determine if it's him. 329 00:20:15.440 --> 00:20:18.200 Now, in this book, you talk about other murders, and 330 00:20:18.240 --> 00:20:22.160 you know his signature, I believe better than anyone, or 331 00:20:22.200 --> 00:20:23.480 as well as anyone. 332 00:20:24.519 --> 00:20:25.319 I appreciate that. 333 00:20:25.480 --> 00:20:30.559 You talk about other murders and other rapes that could 334 00:20:30.559 --> 00:20:33.720 be attributed to him. What have you done in the 335 00:20:33.759 --> 00:20:37.400 pursuit of those, especially the ones you felt were more 336 00:20:37.519 --> 00:20:41.359 certain that it fit the bill for DiAngelo? What have 337 00:20:41.440 --> 00:20:44.880 you done in terms of reaching out to other counties 338 00:20:46.000 --> 00:20:53.359 and there the people at those jurisdictions about your assertions. 339 00:20:53.599 --> 00:21:01.519 Well, prior to this sentencing, and I'll vis admitting basically, 340 00:21:01.599 --> 00:21:04.279 I had talked to quite a few different jurisdictions about 341 00:21:04.480 --> 00:21:07.880 different murders. There are some in particular that you I mean, 342 00:21:07.880 --> 00:21:10.359 if it's not him, my god, you know, you can 343 00:21:10.440 --> 00:21:13.880 just blow me over, because the fact is that one 344 00:21:13.920 --> 00:21:16.039 of the things that he liked to do was taunt 345 00:21:16.119 --> 00:21:19.079 the police. And some of the things that he did 346 00:21:19.559 --> 00:21:23.200 was to leave bodies not far from the police station 347 00:21:23.599 --> 00:21:25.759 or not. You know, he left it in canals and 348 00:21:25.759 --> 00:21:28.759 so on a lot of the time. And so there 349 00:21:28.799 --> 00:21:31.160 are certain murders and certain things that he did where 350 00:21:31.160 --> 00:21:33.759 you read about it. These are just newspaper articles. I 351 00:21:33.759 --> 00:21:37.359 don't have the police files. But when you look at them, 352 00:21:37.759 --> 00:21:41.319 there's one in particular in Auburn, and he really did 353 00:21:41.440 --> 00:21:43.839 quite a few things in that neck of the woods 354 00:21:43.880 --> 00:21:48.039 and that geographical location. But one in particular was where 355 00:21:48.039 --> 00:21:50.480 he left a body about a block and a half. 356 00:21:50.319 --> 00:21:51.599 Away from the police station. 357 00:21:52.599 --> 00:21:57.720 And this happened decade after after decade, and so when 358 00:21:57.720 --> 00:21:59.799 you look at that and you go, okay, here's here's 359 00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:03.160 murders that I think we can pretty much say that 360 00:22:03.279 --> 00:22:07.039 he is a suspect or should be a suspect, and 361 00:22:07.119 --> 00:22:09.200 I'm going to bring him to that jurisdiction. Well, what 362 00:22:09.400 --> 00:22:14.880 happened was the DA investigator that I talked to in 363 00:22:15.039 --> 00:22:19.920 Sacramento said, you know what, my biggest concern is making 364 00:22:19.960 --> 00:22:22.920 sure that nothing flows down the trial of D'Angel And 365 00:22:22.960 --> 00:22:24.960 I said, I had the same concern, and so I 366 00:22:25.039 --> 00:22:28.960 have no problem laying low and not talking about anything. 367 00:22:29.039 --> 00:22:32.799 And so I did that. I pretty much just waited and. 368 00:22:34.400 --> 00:22:37.480 Talk to different people along the way. But the fact 369 00:22:37.640 --> 00:22:41.079 is is that there's going to be always questions about 370 00:22:41.240 --> 00:22:45.480 how many murders he did, to what extent he damaged 371 00:22:46.079 --> 00:22:48.960 many more women. You know, we may never know and 372 00:22:49.000 --> 00:22:53.319 we probably will never know how much he really did do, 373 00:22:54.440 --> 00:22:57.319 and I don't know that they'll pursue it. There are 374 00:22:57.400 --> 00:23:03.119 murders in them by Celia the Jennifer ar Moore, and 375 00:23:03.200 --> 00:23:07.000 of course people talk about Donna Richmond and the fact 376 00:23:07.039 --> 00:23:11.599 that Oscar Clifton was set up. There's just so many 377 00:23:11.680 --> 00:23:16.519 murders still and abductions of girls, people being chased like 378 00:23:16.640 --> 00:23:20.720 I was at fourteen in Sacramento. You know, other people 379 00:23:20.720 --> 00:23:23.960 betting abducted in the seventies. He was there, he was 380 00:23:24.039 --> 00:23:28.480 in our geographical space, he was all over that town, 381 00:23:28.920 --> 00:23:33.160 he was all over wherever he went. He was very active, 382 00:23:33.799 --> 00:23:39.240 and so for him to have stopped, for anybody to 383 00:23:39.319 --> 00:23:42.200 believe from nineteen seventy three to eighty six that was 384 00:23:42.319 --> 00:23:44.160 all he did, that. 385 00:23:44.079 --> 00:23:44.799 Would be naive. 386 00:23:48.039 --> 00:23:52.880 You also talk about the use of genetic genealogy in 387 00:23:52.920 --> 00:24:01.160 this course to make this incredible, unprecedented arrest of DeAngelo 388 00:24:01.240 --> 00:24:05.039 and conviction. But you say that there has been some 389 00:24:04.400 --> 00:24:09.519 other successes with this same technology. Tell us about that, 390 00:24:09.640 --> 00:24:13.599 and also tell us what you believe is ongoing with 391 00:24:13.680 --> 00:24:15.279 the Zodiac investigation. 392 00:24:17.440 --> 00:24:20.559 Well, that's quite a long question. There there have been 393 00:24:20.599 --> 00:24:24.400 I think it was ninety three other cases cold cases 394 00:24:24.440 --> 00:24:27.240 solved in the last couple of years since d'angelo's arrest. 395 00:24:27.680 --> 00:24:34.359 From genetic genealogy. It's a perfect tool to use to 396 00:24:34.680 --> 00:24:37.240 find these people that you know, all we have to 397 00:24:37.240 --> 00:24:40.480 do is go in there and retest evidence, and if 398 00:24:40.759 --> 00:24:42.960 people have stored it and kept it well, then we 399 00:24:43.039 --> 00:24:46.839 can convict people who have committed crimes forty years ago, 400 00:24:46.880 --> 00:24:51.599 thirty years ago. So it's been wonderful to watch the 401 00:24:51.680 --> 00:24:54.680