Speaker 1: Beaving folks, and thank you for joining us again on
Speaker 1: the nonprofits. What happens when Christianity when faith based organizations
Speaker 1: or power structures as I like to call them, get
Speaker 1: involved in healthcare? Do you get your money's worth? Helen
Speaker 1: is going to take us through this next segment. Helen
Speaker 1: over to you.
Speaker 2: So let's talk about how Jesus saves, but not on
Speaker 2: attorney bills. So in Christian Hypocrisy News, healthcare sharing ministries
Speaker 2: may have seen two religious families as a great alternative
Speaker 2: to private insurance, but as religious families who are struggling financially.
Speaker 2: Guess what Jesus wants those dalla dolla bills.
Speaker 3: Baby and screw your baby in the process.
Speaker 2: It's a country where medical costs are through the roof,
Speaker 2: lack of regulation and faith based charitable organizations and the
Speaker 2: ever present profit over people motive plaguing a post capitalist society.
Speaker 2: We are now seeing these abuses happen more and more.
Speaker 2: I'm sure the j me of this has not being
Speaker 2: lost in our wonderful audience on This story comes from
Speaker 2: Area Bendex of NBC News and was published on December
Speaker 2: twenty second, twenty twenty four. I have many things to
Speaker 2: say about this, because I learned about this and it
Speaker 2: just pisses me off. But I'm just gonna I'm gonna
Speaker 2: let my host do his job judge to my opinions.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna I can I can see the stem coming
Speaker 1: out of your ears now, So I am gonna let
Speaker 1: you cool down, and I'm gonna kick it over to
Speaker 1: Stephen and get his opinion first, and then when we
Speaker 1: come back to you, you can tear the mic up.
Speaker 3: Okay, thank you, thank you, because I get opinions.
Speaker 1: But Stephen, you know I wonder and trust me, I
Speaker 1: get the concern, I get the frustration, especially when it
Speaker 1: comes to bringing a child into the world. But in
Speaker 1: an effort excuse me to be objective, I kind of
Speaker 1: try to look for ways to play Devil's advocate. Should
Speaker 1: these people know better? Should they have planned better? And
Speaker 1: can you have any kind of empathy for them going
Speaker 1: through a situation like this?
Speaker 4: Yeah? Like I believe the nutshell of this what the
Speaker 4: article is talking about is when you have these ministries
Speaker 4: quote unquote that you know you pay into so that
Speaker 4: you can then share that they will then cover the
Speaker 4: costs of your healthcare needs, except if you get pregnant
Speaker 4: in the first year, then they are not going to
Speaker 4: cover your pregnancy your labor costs. So if you're going
Speaker 4: to be doing this healthcare cost sharing program, make sure
Speaker 4: that your labor only happens after the first year. And
Speaker 4: so if you happen to need to give birth within
Speaker 4: that first year, sorry, we're not going to cover that,
Speaker 4: which puts a lot of people into an awkward situation
Speaker 4: like like, I'm a guy, so I know that comes
Speaker 4: with privilege, but I don't, like I've never been in
Speaker 4: a situation where I've had an unexpected pregnancy. I've been
Speaker 4: involved in two pregnancies and we have to work really
Speaker 4: hard for both of them. So the idea of like whoops,
Speaker 4: we got pregnant and now we're stuck with having this baby,
Speaker 4: Like if there's a potential for you to be getting pregnant, Like,
Speaker 4: how how hard should you be working if you're if
Speaker 4: there's a slight chance that you could be getting pregnant
Speaker 4: and you'd have to go bankrupt in order to have
Speaker 4: that parent because that's what your medical care system is
Speaker 4: all about, Like shouldn't what what do you need to
Speaker 4: do in order to protect yourself from that financial possibility?
Speaker 4: That that's that's that's a position where I'm coming from.
Speaker 4: And uh, and maybe that's that's Uh Is that cruel?
Speaker 4: Is that heartless? I don't know, but it just feels
Speaker 4: like if you're going to run the risk of having
Speaker 4: a baby and you don't have a financial plan in
Speaker 4: place for having it, then that's something that is you
Speaker 4: really should be looking into. Yeah, so these these organizations,
Speaker 4: it's still messed up. But the whole in Canada, we
Speaker 4: did not have to pay for our labors, So it's
Speaker 4: hard for me to be invested in this scenario.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think this is indicative of a system
Speaker 1: that is designed to allow abuses to take place and
Speaker 1: to not really safeguard people. Maybe the way that your
Speaker 1: system is, you know, I found it fascinating when I
Speaker 1: learned that the Conservative Party in Canada was supportive of
Speaker 1: universal health care. I couldn't believe what I was hearing.
Speaker 1: And so that is a completely different mindset and a
Speaker 1: completely different system that we're used to here. But being
Speaker 1: here knowing the pitfalls that come with insurance, because even
Speaker 1: regulated insurance companies try and get out of pay right
Speaker 1: and then you combine that kind of process with the church,
Speaker 1: I mean, we're talking about religion here. They're not giving
Speaker 1: you any money they'll ask for, but they'll tell you
Speaker 1: to pray to solve your own problems. And so, you know, Helen,
Speaker 1: on that note, I feel like, men, it's maybe fair
Speaker 1: to criticize their lack of planning or their lack of education.
Speaker 1: Am I being too harsh to Stephen being too harsh?
Speaker 1: What are your thoughts taken away?
Speaker 2: So I'm gonna come from a little bit of a
Speaker 2: different perspective because I I as a parent and someone
Speaker 2: that you know, when my kids are young, we you know,
Speaker 2: had some kind of financial plan, you know, for our
Speaker 2: kids when we decided to have children, me Max, husband,
Speaker 2: and like, I get that, but we have to keep
Speaker 2: in mind these people are religious.
Speaker 3: They grew up impurity culture.
Speaker 2: Especially these like these very extreme religious beliefs that the
Speaker 2: church is supposed to take care of you.
Speaker 3: One.
Speaker 2: Two, your job is to get married and push out babies,
Speaker 2: you know, and grow the flock or whatever. And you're
Speaker 2: not gonna get proper like sex and education and preventative
Speaker 2: pregnancy education.
Speaker 3: Like that's not happening to these people, you know.
Speaker 2: And and from the work I've done with recovering from religion.
Speaker 2: People that grow up in these cultures, they are so
Speaker 2: isolated they don't know like what the broader populace, the
Speaker 2: secular society does know because they're they're kept from that information.
Speaker 2: So yes, I do agree that you should have like
Speaker 2: that's not an excuse not to have some kind of
Speaker 2: financial plan. But when you're taught that the church is
Speaker 2: supposed to like step in and help you because you
Speaker 2: don't want to do secular society because you know, the
Speaker 2: devil or whatever, you know, you want to rely on
Speaker 2: the church. And these scams because they're scams. They are scams.
Speaker 2: If anyone John Oliver did a whole section show on
Speaker 2: this three years ago, I highly recommend go look it
Speaker 2: up that episode on.
Speaker 3: Uh these you know HCSM scams.
Speaker 2: They're really it's really really interesting because as the idea
Speaker 2: was is that you know, these people would pay into
Speaker 2: basically what would be insurance. There's a pool of money,
Speaker 2: you know, everybody, and that that money would it's basically.
Speaker 3: Like universal income you payment of money.
Speaker 2: And then that if something comes up like you need
Speaker 2: there's additional medical costs like pain for am attorney that's
Speaker 2: supposed to be covered and and even so people that
Speaker 2: have insurance, if there's additional cost these this this isn't
Speaker 2: what was designed that if you couldn't afford those additional costs,
Speaker 2: they would step in, yeah, and help them, and they
Speaker 2: deny claim again and again and again.
Speaker 1: Thank you for explaining that, because we here, we are,
Speaker 1: you know, halfway through the episode, and we haven't even
Speaker 1: explained to our viewers what it is that we're actually
Speaker 1: talking about. I mean you did in the intro. But yeah,
Speaker 1: uh so they're they're getting out of paying uh and
Speaker 1: they're they're set up to help people. And you made
Speaker 1: a fascinating point. I kind of considered that a mic
Speaker 1: drop moment. You know, you you're right. These people are
Speaker 1: raised to not look for answers, to not be educated,
Speaker 1: and then when it comes time for adulting, they just
Speaker 1: don't know how to because they're told all their tools
Speaker 1: would come from the church, and then their church turns
Speaker 1: it back on them. And I didn't even think of
Speaker 1: it that way. So I thought that was great. And
Speaker 1: on that note, I want to get to Tracy. You know, Tracy,
Speaker 1: what would be a good solution for this? I mean,
Speaker 1: is there a more elegant solution in protecting these maternity issues.
Speaker 5: There's yes, Stephen, Yes that that is that is an
Speaker 5: elegant solution. But yes, it is almost talking to Stephen.
Speaker 3: I'm just sorry, Stephen.
Speaker 5: Stephen pointed at himself and I appointed himself. I just
Speaker 5: had to acknowledge him, all right, But yeah, there's almost
Speaker 5: certainly a more elegant solution. Yeah, I mean, if we're
Speaker 5: if we're really going to buy into the idea behind,
Speaker 5: the whole process, behind and I mean the whole thing.
Speaker 5: It's a it's a religious organization. So clearly there's a
Speaker 5: component of faith. And whether you you know, ascribe that
Speaker 5: as faith, you know, being the evidence of things not seen,
Speaker 5: or just belief without any evidence, or just trust, as
Speaker 5: I've heard many people use it. Maybe the church could exercise,
Speaker 5: or these ministries rather could exercise a little bit of
Speaker 5: trust in their can in their people. But of course
Speaker 5: they're not going to do that. So let's let's make
Speaker 5: it legal. Let's let's put a legal eSEE thing in
Speaker 5: there in the agreement, put that if you have any
Speaker 5: such claim of this nature, then bind them to being
Speaker 5: part of the ministry for X amount of years or
Speaker 5: X amount of months, or x amount of whatevers, and
Speaker 5: that way, if they default on that, you can go
Speaker 5: after this money. If they're really about getting that bag,
Speaker 5: then lock them in, make make it a debt. I mean,
Speaker 5: there's there's plethora of ways that we could make this
Speaker 5: a more elegant solution than just dropping people and saying no,
Speaker 5: we're not going to help you. Even though we said
Speaker 5: we're going to help you. We put it in fine
Speaker 5: print three pages down this twenty page agreement that we're
Speaker 5: not going to help you in exactly this scenario. It's
Speaker 5: kind of ridiculous.
Speaker 1: And that's funny that you say that, because something that
Speaker 1: stood out to me twice in this article, the author
Speaker 1: mentioned that the caveats to receiving payment were on page
Speaker 1: I think it was like forty three or forty five
Speaker 1: of the agreement, and I'm like, read all forty five pages.
Speaker 1: You know, I don't care where it is. You know,
Speaker 1: in my opinion, I was kind of like, well, you know,
Speaker 1: don't try and defend these people because they didn't make
Speaker 1: it all the way to the end, or because the
Speaker 1: fine print was all the way at the end. But
Speaker 1: you're right on another note, you know, on the flip side,
Speaker 1: I think reasonably the church should probably be able to
Speaker 1: protect itself. I think it's really a really sticky situation
Speaker 1: to let law and government get involved with the church,
Speaker 1: because that could have other other consequences that I don't
Speaker 1: want to delve into. I will just say that I
Speaker 1: do like the division of church and state and want
Speaker 1: to keep it that way. Go ahead, Tracy, go ahead.
Speaker 1: Follow up.
Speaker 5: I would like to say, I would really like that
Speaker 5: if churches stayed churches and stop trying to pretend to
Speaker 5: be insurance companies.
Speaker 1: You're right, You're right, You're absolutely right, and stop you know,
Speaker 1: violating their five o' one C three status and and
Speaker 1: you know, uh talking politics and and uh offering political
Speaker 1: support from their pulpits. Yeah, I get it. But coalescing
Speaker 1: with that, I think is also is also pretty dangerous.
Speaker 1: And I think, uh, you know, you raise a valid point.
Speaker 1: I do want to ask Stephen, though. You know, Stephen,
Speaker 1: you're a former Catholic, right, what is you know what
Speaker 1: that's perfect? That is perfect? So I'm gonna start with
Speaker 1: Steven and go right down the line. You know, why
Speaker 1: don't each of you take a moment to give me
Speaker 1: kind of a glimpse into what your experience was and
Speaker 1: and tell me you know, as former religious people, you know,
Speaker 1: what are the quickest ways to realize that you're kind
Speaker 1: of being duped And so Steven go.
Speaker 4: Ahead, sure, like being duped by like an organization like
Speaker 4: that or what yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean so, so I know that you feel like,
Speaker 1: you know, really delving into the Bible, for example, is
Speaker 1: a good way of showing that maybe the best the
Speaker 1: best interests, your best interests are not being looked after
Speaker 1: by by the people that say they're going to support you,
Speaker 1: just like these women who are giving babies, these families
Speaker 1: who excuse me that are having babies. But what was
Speaker 1: your experience like as a Catholic when did you realize, huh,
Speaker 1: this is not in my best interest?
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, interesting, like as like Mennonites are kind of
Speaker 4: the opposite of Catholic. But yeah, so like when I,
Speaker 4: for me, I would say that I would realize that,
Speaker 4: like my Mennonite faith wasn't in my best interest. Primarily
Speaker 4: when I started to realize, especially the evangelical part of it,
Speaker 4: that was saying that, you know, my perspective is the
Speaker 4: perspective that matters, and it's the perspective of others that
Speaker 4: I need to disregard, especially when I was doing my
Speaker 4: missions work like that, Like, you can only sit with
Speaker 4: that in a neutral state for so and so long,
Speaker 4: and you'll either have to like cement in and say yes,
Speaker 4: I am right and know they are wrong, or these
Speaker 4: are human beings and there is something inherent about their
Speaker 4: humanity that makes that I need to reflect upon and
Speaker 4: honor and respect. And it was only once I left
Speaker 4: the faith that I was really able to like actually
Speaker 4: respect other people again. So that was the biggest thing
Speaker 4: for me. It was just realizing how far I had
Speaker 4: come away from just respecting my fellow human being and
Speaker 4: it's so nice to regain that.
Speaker 1: That's very interesting and I think that relates a lot
Speaker 1: to what we talked about the other night on Monday
Speaker 1: Night as far as people benefiting and not benefiting and
Speaker 1: having respect for others. Uh, definitely gonna check that out
Speaker 1: if you have it. But Helen, in your experience, you know,
Speaker 1: when did you realize, Hey, this church, this this group
Speaker 1: is not They're not my people.
Speaker 2: When I was a teenager and I found out I
Speaker 2: was queer, you know, you grab in the nineties, and
Speaker 2: you know, and we were pretty liberal Cathics, so it
Speaker 2: wasn't like very extreme. I mean, like I definitely got
Speaker 2: some bad messaging, especially about like sexuality and things like that.
Speaker 2: But I realized that I had a lot of problems
Speaker 2: with the church, especially as a woman and as someone
Speaker 2: that is queer. There's a lot of mixed messaging and
Speaker 2: that as I got older, I realized I was like,
Speaker 2: wait a second, I'm like this doesn't make any sense,
Speaker 2: and this and this, and these groups of people don't
Speaker 2: really care about like rights. They don't care, you know,
Speaker 2: about my health. They don't care, you know, really about
Speaker 2: me as a person. They just what I represent to them,
Speaker 2: which is a baby maker. And I'm supposed to sit
Speaker 2: down and shut up, listen to my husband and pop
Speaker 2: up kids. And that's what religion teaches women, you know,
Speaker 2: extreme forms of religion. I don't want to say all religion.
Speaker 3: That's not fair.
Speaker 2: Luckily my parents were liberal Catholics, so that message didn't
Speaker 2: stick obviously. But but like getting back to the article,
Speaker 2: that's the thing that we're seeing though, because in these
Speaker 2: structures when you have you know, churches acts as insurance companies,
Speaker 2: and yes, I wish it was charitable, like they were
Speaker 2: like we're going to pull this money and then this
Speaker 2: way we can help follow people in our congregation or
Speaker 2: that are part of this faith, and when they're financially struggling,
Speaker 2: we will step in and help them. But there they
Speaker 2: operate like a business, just like everything else. They're operating
Speaker 2: like a private insurance company, but they're selling it as
Speaker 2: a charity. And that's what makes it worse, because when
Speaker 2: you're taught that your church is supposed to be your
Speaker 2: family and the people that are supposed to take care
Speaker 2: of you, and they don't do it. And these I
Speaker 2: hope they go through a religious deconversion. That'd be great,
Speaker 2: but even still, that still doesn't pay the bills. It
Speaker 2: doesn't help those families deal with the financial costs. And
Speaker 2: that's what religion does. It hands you a promise, but
Speaker 2: it doesn't deliver.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's what it's based on. Tray your thoughts
Speaker 1: on that sentiment, Helen.
Speaker 5: I'm going to have to agree vehemently with everything that
Speaker 5: you've said, except for the part about being seen as
Speaker 5: a baby maker.
Speaker 1: I don't.
Speaker 5: I didn't feel that at all. But it's just going
Speaker 5: to immediately contradict what I said earlier. I'm going to
Speaker 5: immediately contradict what I said earlier about the reading, and
Speaker 5: the thing that ran me out of it was just
Speaker 5: reading the dang book. And so I'm going to contradict
Speaker 5: what I said earlier about hiding something in a book
Speaker 5: that I didn't bother to read read it. I agree.
Speaker 5: I agree, Jimmy read the whole thing, because that was
Speaker 5: when I realized, wait a second, either they're making stuff
Speaker 5: up that isn't in this book, or I have a
Speaker 5: different book. Yeah, and I'm gonna have to say I'm
Speaker 5: gonna have to just fall back on what you've been saying, Jimmy,
Speaker 5: just read the thing, familiarize yourself with it. The same
Speaker 5: thing with this ministry as it is with as it
Speaker 5: was with my religion, is I just had to actually
Speaker 5: sit down and read it instead of blindly accepting it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll tell you. I mean, I have a lot
Speaker 1: of stories that can relate to that, but I'm going
Speaker 1: to use a funny one.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: I remember our pastor just berating the audience for watching Seinfeld.
Speaker 1: I guess he didn't like some of the plots in Seinfeld, which, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, they tested, they certainly tests at the times,
Speaker 1: didn't they. But then my parents went home and watched Sidefeld.
Speaker 1: They continue, I'm like, nobody gives a shit with this
Speaker 1: guy saying like this is not legitimate, and it just
Speaker 1: kind of just kind of cemented my my feelings. But
Speaker 1: you know, back back to the topic though, what you know,
Speaker 1: how do we give these people credit? How do we
Speaker 1: give them a little bit of guidance uh in breaking
Speaker 1: out of this cycle? Because I think it's it's really
Speaker 1: fair to say that. Uh to Hellan's point, people, Uh,
Speaker 1: you know, they they're raised with this idea that everything's
Speaker 1: going to be panned out for them, and here they
Speaker 1: are with a child and now they want to build
Speaker 1: a family and keep having children. At some point you
Speaker 1: have to break that cycle. So you know, to your point, uh,
Speaker 1: Tracy when you say, like how many minds must collapse,
Speaker 1: how many factories need to burn? And I'm just going
Speaker 1: over your notes before before people realize that this is
Speaker 1: not a recipe for balance, you know, can you expand
Speaker 1: on that? What do you what are you trying to
Speaker 1: get at?
Speaker 5: So? Uh, what I'm what I'm trying to get at
Speaker 5: is the attraction of the free as is always brought
Speaker 5: up in political discussions, especially with the right or with
Speaker 5: the even further right, that the free market. Is this fantastic.
Speaker 5: If you just let a company do its thing and
Speaker 5: you don't regulate it and you don't give it any rules,
Speaker 5: then everything will work out magically and everything will be
Speaker 5: okay because if it'll find a balance. No, that won't happen.
Speaker 5: We've seen that repeatedly not happen with slavery and with
Speaker 5: the triangle shirtcoat factory fires just and all of the
Speaker 5: minds that collapse due to underregulation or no regulation or
Speaker 5: people just lying about what they're doing in those minds.
Speaker 5: Regulation is needed because business owners have shown business owners, churches,
Speaker 5: insurance companies, whatever you want to say, they have shown
Speaker 5: repeatedly and repeatedly that they cannot be trusted to do
Speaker 5: whatever they want. People have shown that they cannot be
Speaker 5: trusted to do whatever they want in entirety. Will you
Speaker 5: have a company here or there Arizona Costco that will
Speaker 5: make some good decisions and will do good things. Of
Speaker 5: course you will, but that won't be the majority. The
Speaker 5: majority of people who will go and start a business
Speaker 5: get to starting a business and then become successful by
Speaker 5: screwing others over. That's how you get money in a
Speaker 5: capitalist society anyway, is by screwing others over, and so
Speaker 5: it's not going to balance itself. You can't just have
Speaker 5: everybody screwing everyone else over. There's got to be somebody
Speaker 5: at the top.
Speaker 1: While somebody's getting screwed in more ways than one in
Speaker 1: this article, they're having babies, they're losing money. And you know,
Speaker 1: Helen on that note, you know, is this and I
Speaker 1: know that we are empathetic toward the people who are
Speaker 1: getting screwed over, But is this just a matter of
Speaker 1: the church not doing the right thing? Or is this
Speaker 1: a larger failure of our GOVERNMD, of our healthcare system.
Speaker 1: Who's really to blame for this?
Speaker 3: It's it's kind of twofold.
Speaker 2: And I do put a little bit of blame with
Speaker 2: the family. I'm not going to sit there and say
Speaker 2: they're completely hands clean of this, because when you become
Speaker 2: a pairing, you have to be responsible for that child
Speaker 2: and you need to be and even and I understand
Speaker 2: that they are closed off, and I wish that they
Speaker 2: had considered them maybe we might not get the financial
Speaker 2: help that we need. Like I just wish that thought
Speaker 2: had just flittered across the brain.
Speaker 3: They didn't.
Speaker 2: They didn't even have to think about like leaving the
Speaker 2: church or anything and just flitter across the brain. Maybe
Speaker 2: we will not get the help that we are going we.
Speaker 3: Will get, you know, that'd be nice.
Speaker 2: But either way, this is but this is an abuse
Speaker 2: of the system when we're living in a post capitalist
Speaker 2: society and insurance companies are screwing everybody and you are
Speaker 2: relying on charity, which shouldn't happen for healthcare. We should
Speaker 2: I mean relying on charity to take care of our
Speaker 2: health care. It should be a human right. And our
Speaker 2: healthcare system is fucked.
Speaker 3: It's fucked up.
Speaker 2: Like you, like you are relying on your employer to
Speaker 2: pay your insurance and they hold all the cards, and
Speaker 2: you have to tow the line because if you lose
Speaker 2: your job, you lose your insurance, you lose those benefits.
Speaker 2: That shouldn't you shouldn't be a slave to the almighty
Speaker 2: dollar for you to get healthcare coverage, you know, And
Speaker 2: that's what happens when you live in post capitalism. And
Speaker 2: so I do have a place in my heart for
Speaker 2: that empathy and understanding for these people, and I want
Speaker 2: and I wish this didn't happen to them. And they
Speaker 2: are one of thousands and thousands of people that get
Speaker 2: screwed by these charities for cancer treatment, for getting a
Speaker 2: broken leg and not being able to pay those extra bills.
Speaker 2: You know, these people are supposed to come in and
Speaker 2: help people, but they do night claims just like any
Speaker 2: other insurance company, and they say they're a charity and
Speaker 2: they get their five oh one C three kickbacks and
Speaker 2: now on and on it goes. And that's because the
Speaker 2: almighty dollar rules, Stevid.
Speaker 1: What is the moral of this story here?
Speaker 4: The moral of the story is, don't settle for anything
Speaker 4: that is faith based. Only settle for evidence. I think
Speaker 4: if your insurance is coming from anything that has the
Speaker 4: word faith in it, that should set up some flags
Speaker 4: for you and just set a higher standard for yourself.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and that's important. You know, we have a
Speaker 1: responsibility to learn from our mistakes, for sure. So I
Speaker 1: hope this family and the families like them are realizing
Speaker 1: the way that they're being treated and seeking a way
Speaker 1: out of this cycle of abuse that they're clearly set
Speaker 1: up for at an early age. And really the victims
Speaker 1: of