WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.200 --> 00:00:02.600 Beaving folks, and thank you for joining us again on 2 00:00:02.640 --> 00:00:08.279 the nonprofits. What happens when Christianity when faith based organizations 3 00:00:08.640 --> 00:00:10.839 or power structures as I like to call them, get 4 00:00:10.880 --> 00:00:13.759 involved in healthcare? Do you get your money's worth? Helen 5 00:00:13.919 --> 00:00:16.399 is going to take us through this next segment. Helen 6 00:00:16.600 --> 00:00:17.039 over to you. 7 00:00:17.960 --> 00:00:21.280 So let's talk about how Jesus saves, but not on 8 00:00:21.359 --> 00:00:26.719 attorney bills. So in Christian Hypocrisy News, healthcare sharing ministries 9 00:00:26.839 --> 00:00:30.920 may have seen two religious families as a great alternative 10 00:00:30.920 --> 00:00:35.240 to private insurance, but as religious families who are struggling financially. 11 00:00:35.880 --> 00:00:39.600 Guess what Jesus wants those dalla dolla bills. 12 00:00:39.240 --> 00:00:41.799 Baby and screw your baby in the process. 13 00:00:42.119 --> 00:00:46.240 It's a country where medical costs are through the roof, 14 00:00:46.600 --> 00:00:50.679 lack of regulation and faith based charitable organizations and the 15 00:00:50.840 --> 00:00:55.880 ever present profit over people motive plaguing a post capitalist society. 16 00:00:55.920 --> 00:00:58.640 We are now seeing these abuses happen more and more. 17 00:00:59.280 --> 00:01:02.119 I'm sure the j me of this has not being 18 00:01:02.280 --> 00:01:06.040 lost in our wonderful audience on This story comes from 19 00:01:06.680 --> 00:01:12.079 Area Bendex of NBC News and was published on December 20 00:01:12.120 --> 00:01:16.120 twenty second, twenty twenty four. I have many things to 21 00:01:16.159 --> 00:01:19.560 say about this, because I learned about this and it 22 00:01:19.680 --> 00:01:22.760 just pisses me off. But I'm just gonna I'm gonna 23 00:01:22.799 --> 00:01:28.280 let my host do his job judge to my opinions. 24 00:01:28.560 --> 00:01:31.879 I'm gonna I can I can see the stem coming 25 00:01:31.879 --> 00:01:33.719 out of your ears now, So I am gonna let 26 00:01:33.719 --> 00:01:35.719 you cool down, and I'm gonna kick it over to 27 00:01:35.799 --> 00:01:38.680 Stephen and get his opinion first, and then when we 28 00:01:38.719 --> 00:01:41.480 come back to you, you can tear the mic up. 29 00:01:41.640 --> 00:01:43.959 Okay, thank you, thank you, because I get opinions. 30 00:01:44.239 --> 00:01:48.640 But Stephen, you know I wonder and trust me, I 31 00:01:48.680 --> 00:01:51.840 get the concern, I get the frustration, especially when it 32 00:01:51.840 --> 00:01:54.640 comes to bringing a child into the world. But in 33 00:01:54.719 --> 00:01:58.159 an effort excuse me to be objective, I kind of 34 00:01:58.319 --> 00:02:01.840 try to look for ways to play Devil's advocate. Should 35 00:02:01.840 --> 00:02:06.439 these people know better? Should they have planned better? And 36 00:02:06.560 --> 00:02:09.520 can you have any kind of empathy for them going 37 00:02:09.560 --> 00:02:11.240 through a situation like this? 38 00:02:11.599 --> 00:02:16.319 Yeah? Like I believe the nutshell of this what the 39 00:02:16.400 --> 00:02:19.520 article is talking about is when you have these ministries 40 00:02:19.680 --> 00:02:24.680 quote unquote that you know you pay into so that 41 00:02:24.759 --> 00:02:28.560 you can then share that they will then cover the 42 00:02:28.599 --> 00:02:32.520 costs of your healthcare needs, except if you get pregnant 43 00:02:33.039 --> 00:02:35.000 in the first year, then they are not going to 44 00:02:35.039 --> 00:02:38.479 cover your pregnancy your labor costs. So if you're going 45 00:02:38.520 --> 00:02:43.520 to be doing this healthcare cost sharing program, make sure 46 00:02:43.599 --> 00:02:48.919 that your labor only happens after the first year. And 47 00:02:49.000 --> 00:02:51.919 so if you happen to need to give birth within 48 00:02:51.960 --> 00:02:54.120 that first year, sorry, we're not going to cover that, 49 00:02:54.199 --> 00:02:56.479 which puts a lot of people into an awkward situation 50 00:02:57.520 --> 00:03:01.159 like like, I'm a guy, so I know that comes 51 00:03:01.199 --> 00:03:05.280 with privilege, but I don't, like I've never been in 52 00:03:05.319 --> 00:03:08.439 a situation where I've had an unexpected pregnancy. I've been 53 00:03:08.439 --> 00:03:10.680 involved in two pregnancies and we have to work really 54 00:03:10.680 --> 00:03:13.240 hard for both of them. So the idea of like whoops, 55 00:03:13.319 --> 00:03:16.479 we got pregnant and now we're stuck with having this baby, 56 00:03:16.680 --> 00:03:20.560 Like if there's a potential for you to be getting pregnant, Like, 57 00:03:20.840 --> 00:03:24.520 how how hard should you be working if you're if 58 00:03:24.520 --> 00:03:27.039 there's a slight chance that you could be getting pregnant 59 00:03:27.120 --> 00:03:29.120 and you'd have to go bankrupt in order to have 60 00:03:29.199 --> 00:03:31.840 that parent because that's what your medical care system is 61 00:03:31.879 --> 00:03:34.680 all about, Like shouldn't what what do you need to 62 00:03:34.719 --> 00:03:39.360 do in order to protect yourself from that financial possibility? 63 00:03:39.400 --> 00:03:42.960 That that's that's that's a position where I'm coming from. 64 00:03:43.120 --> 00:03:47.479 And uh, and maybe that's that's Uh Is that cruel? 65 00:03:47.599 --> 00:03:49.479 Is that heartless? I don't know, but it just feels 66 00:03:49.520 --> 00:03:51.680 like if you're going to run the risk of having 67 00:03:51.680 --> 00:03:54.360 a baby and you don't have a financial plan in 68 00:03:54.400 --> 00:03:57.479 place for having it, then that's something that is you 69 00:03:57.599 --> 00:04:02.520 really should be looking into. Yeah, so these these organizations, 70 00:04:02.560 --> 00:04:07.039 it's still messed up. But the whole in Canada, we 71 00:04:07.080 --> 00:04:10.199 did not have to pay for our labors, So it's 72 00:04:10.240 --> 00:04:14.719 hard for me to be invested in this scenario. 73 00:04:14.960 --> 00:04:17.319 Yeah, And I think this is indicative of a system 74 00:04:17.360 --> 00:04:22.360 that is designed to allow abuses to take place and 75 00:04:22.480 --> 00:04:25.879 to not really safeguard people. Maybe the way that your 76 00:04:25.920 --> 00:04:29.000 system is, you know, I found it fascinating when I 77 00:04:29.079 --> 00:04:32.959 learned that the Conservative Party in Canada was supportive of 78 00:04:33.120 --> 00:04:35.839 universal health care. I couldn't believe what I was hearing. 79 00:04:36.639 --> 00:04:39.639 And so that is a completely different mindset and a 80 00:04:39.639 --> 00:04:43.199 completely different system that we're used to here. But being 81 00:04:43.319 --> 00:04:47.439 here knowing the pitfalls that come with insurance, because even 82 00:04:47.959 --> 00:04:52.240 regulated insurance companies try and get out of pay right 83 00:04:52.439 --> 00:04:55.639 and then you combine that kind of process with the church, 84 00:04:55.959 --> 00:04:58.680 I mean, we're talking about religion here. They're not giving 85 00:04:58.680 --> 00:05:01.000 you any money they'll ask for, but they'll tell you 86 00:05:01.040 --> 00:05:03.560 to pray to solve your own problems. And so, you know, Helen, 87 00:05:03.639 --> 00:05:07.120 on that note, I feel like, men, it's maybe fair 88 00:05:07.319 --> 00:05:11.199 to criticize their lack of planning or their lack of education. 89 00:05:11.439 --> 00:05:13.959 Am I being too harsh to Stephen being too harsh? 90 00:05:14.279 --> 00:05:16.160 What are your thoughts taken away? 91 00:05:16.480 --> 00:05:18.959 So I'm gonna come from a little bit of a 92 00:05:18.959 --> 00:05:24.600 different perspective because I I as a parent and someone 93 00:05:24.800 --> 00:05:27.480 that you know, when my kids are young, we you know, 94 00:05:27.680 --> 00:05:30.560 had some kind of financial plan, you know, for our 95 00:05:30.639 --> 00:05:33.000 kids when we decided to have children, me Max, husband, 96 00:05:33.160 --> 00:05:35.839 and like, I get that, but we have to keep 97 00:05:35.839 --> 00:05:37.240 in mind these people are religious. 98 00:05:37.560 --> 00:05:39.279 They grew up impurity culture. 99 00:05:39.240 --> 00:05:46.000 Especially these like these very extreme religious beliefs that the 100 00:05:46.079 --> 00:05:47.399 church is supposed to take care of you. 101 00:05:47.639 --> 00:05:48.040 One. 102 00:05:48.600 --> 00:05:52.360 Two, your job is to get married and push out babies, 103 00:05:53.319 --> 00:05:56.920 you know, and grow the flock or whatever. And you're 104 00:05:57.120 --> 00:06:02.439 not gonna get proper like sex and education and preventative 105 00:06:02.600 --> 00:06:04.160 pregnancy education. 106 00:06:04.360 --> 00:06:06.639 Like that's not happening to these people, you know. 107 00:06:06.959 --> 00:06:10.240 And and from the work I've done with recovering from religion. 108 00:06:10.399 --> 00:06:12.680 People that grow up in these cultures, they are so 109 00:06:12.959 --> 00:06:18.000 isolated they don't know like what the broader populace, the 110 00:06:18.040 --> 00:06:22.399 secular society does know because they're they're kept from that information. 111 00:06:23.199 --> 00:06:26.319 So yes, I do agree that you should have like 112 00:06:26.560 --> 00:06:28.439 that's not an excuse not to have some kind of 113 00:06:28.439 --> 00:06:31.240 financial plan. But when you're taught that the church is 114 00:06:31.240 --> 00:06:34.199 supposed to like step in and help you because you 115 00:06:34.399 --> 00:06:37.160 don't want to do secular society because you know, the 116 00:06:37.240 --> 00:06:40.959 devil or whatever, you know, you want to rely on 117 00:06:41.000 --> 00:06:45.240 the church. And these scams because they're scams. They are scams. 118 00:06:45.279 --> 00:06:48.759 If anyone John Oliver did a whole section show on 119 00:06:48.759 --> 00:06:50.639 this three years ago, I highly recommend go look it 120 00:06:50.720 --> 00:06:51.959 up that episode on. 121 00:06:54.000 --> 00:06:57.040 Uh these you know HCSM scams. 122 00:06:57.079 --> 00:07:01.240 They're really it's really really interesting because as the idea 123 00:07:01.560 --> 00:07:04.879 was is that you know, these people would pay into 124 00:07:05.439 --> 00:07:09.519 basically what would be insurance. There's a pool of money, 125 00:07:09.720 --> 00:07:13.720 you know, everybody, and that that money would it's basically. 126 00:07:13.279 --> 00:07:15.199 Like universal income you payment of money. 127 00:07:15.199 --> 00:07:17.759 And then that if something comes up like you need 128 00:07:17.879 --> 00:07:21.639 there's additional medical costs like pain for am attorney that's 129 00:07:21.680 --> 00:07:25.319 supposed to be covered and and even so people that 130 00:07:25.519 --> 00:07:30.000 have insurance, if there's additional cost these this this isn't 131 00:07:30.040 --> 00:07:33.759 what was designed that if you couldn't afford those additional costs, 132 00:07:33.800 --> 00:07:36.439 they would step in, yeah, and help them, and they 133 00:07:36.519 --> 00:07:38.879 deny claim again and again and again. 134 00:07:39.240 --> 00:07:41.639 Thank you for explaining that, because we here, we are, 135 00:07:42.079 --> 00:07:44.279 you know, halfway through the episode, and we haven't even 136 00:07:44.319 --> 00:07:46.920 explained to our viewers what it is that we're actually 137 00:07:46.959 --> 00:07:48.959 talking about. I mean you did in the intro. But yeah, 138 00:07:49.439 --> 00:07:52.839 uh so they're they're getting out of paying uh and 139 00:07:52.920 --> 00:07:56.000 they're they're set up to help people. And you made 140 00:07:56.079 --> 00:07:58.720 a fascinating point. I kind of considered that a mic 141 00:07:58.800 --> 00:08:02.040 drop moment. You know, you you're right. These people are 142 00:08:02.160 --> 00:08:05.439 raised to not look for answers, to not be educated, 143 00:08:05.480 --> 00:08:08.199 and then when it comes time for adulting, they just 144 00:08:08.199 --> 00:08:10.279 don't know how to because they're told all their tools 145 00:08:10.319 --> 00:08:12.040 would come from the church, and then their church turns 146 00:08:12.040 --> 00:08:14.879 it back on them. And I didn't even think of 147 00:08:14.920 --> 00:08:16.680 it that way. So I thought that was great. And 148 00:08:16.720 --> 00:08:19.360 on that note, I want to get to Tracy. You know, Tracy, 149 00:08:19.759 --> 00:08:23.519 what would be a good solution for this? I mean, 150 00:08:23.879 --> 00:08:28.480 is there a more elegant solution in protecting these maternity issues. 151 00:08:29.279 --> 00:08:33.240 There's yes, Stephen, Yes that that is that is an 152 00:08:33.240 --> 00:08:37.600 elegant solution. But yes, it is almost talking to Stephen. 153 00:08:37.720 --> 00:08:39.320 I'm just sorry, Stephen. 154 00:08:39.600 --> 00:08:46.480 Stephen pointed at himself and I appointed himself. I just 155 00:08:46.480 --> 00:08:49.279 had to acknowledge him, all right, But yeah, there's almost 156 00:08:49.279 --> 00:08:53.080 certainly a more elegant solution. Yeah, I mean, if we're 157 00:08:53.159 --> 00:08:57.080 if we're really going to buy into the idea behind, 158 00:08:57.159 --> 00:08:59.919 the whole process, behind and I mean the whole thing. 159 00:09:00.039 --> 00:09:02.840 It's a it's a religious organization. So clearly there's a 160 00:09:02.840 --> 00:09:05.960 component of faith. And whether you you know, ascribe that 161 00:09:06.039 --> 00:09:08.919 as faith, you know, being the evidence of things not seen, 162 00:09:09.080 --> 00:09:12.679 or just belief without any evidence, or just trust, as 163 00:09:12.720 --> 00:09:16.480 I've heard many people use it. Maybe the church could exercise, 164 00:09:16.600 --> 00:09:19.679 or these ministries rather could exercise a little bit of 165 00:09:19.759 --> 00:09:23.559 trust in their can in their people. But of course 166 00:09:23.600 --> 00:09:26.039 they're not going to do that. So let's let's make 167 00:09:26.080 --> 00:09:28.360 it legal. Let's let's put a legal eSEE thing in 168 00:09:28.399 --> 00:09:31.159 there in the agreement, put that if you have any 169 00:09:31.200 --> 00:09:34.440 such claim of this nature, then bind them to being 170 00:09:34.480 --> 00:09:36.639 part of the ministry for X amount of years or 171 00:09:36.759 --> 00:09:39.279 X amount of months, or x amount of whatevers, and 172 00:09:39.320 --> 00:09:42.799 that way, if they default on that, you can go 173 00:09:42.879 --> 00:09:45.919 after this money. If they're really about getting that bag, 174 00:09:46.320 --> 00:09:50.519 then lock them in, make make it a debt. I mean, 175 00:09:50.840 --> 00:09:54.240 there's there's plethora of ways that we could make this 176 00:09:54.279 --> 00:09:57.919 a more elegant solution than just dropping people and saying no, 177 00:09:57.960 --> 00:09:59.519 we're not going to help you. Even though we said 178 00:09:59.519 --> 00:10:01.759 we're going to help you. We put it in fine 179 00:10:02.120 --> 00:10:05.759 print three pages down this twenty page agreement that we're 180 00:10:05.759 --> 00:10:08.440 not going to help you in exactly this scenario. It's 181 00:10:08.519 --> 00:10:09.440 kind of ridiculous. 182 00:10:09.960 --> 00:10:11.759 And that's funny that you say that, because something that 183 00:10:11.799 --> 00:10:14.759 stood out to me twice in this article, the author 184 00:10:15.200 --> 00:10:20.080 mentioned that the caveats to receiving payment were on page 185 00:10:20.519 --> 00:10:22.720 I think it was like forty three or forty five 186 00:10:22.879 --> 00:10:27.080 of the agreement, and I'm like, read all forty five pages. 187 00:10:27.159 --> 00:10:28.919 You know, I don't care where it is. You know, 188 00:10:29.159 --> 00:10:31.240 in my opinion, I was kind of like, well, you know, 189 00:10:31.360 --> 00:10:34.279 don't try and defend these people because they didn't make 190 00:10:34.279 --> 00:10:35.919 it all the way to the end, or because the 191 00:10:36.320 --> 00:10:38.000 fine print was all the way at the end. But 192 00:10:38.320 --> 00:10:40.960 you're right on another note, you know, on the flip side, 193 00:10:41.159 --> 00:10:44.399 I think reasonably the church should probably be able to 194 00:10:44.480 --> 00:10:47.799 protect itself. I think it's really a really sticky situation 195 00:10:47.919 --> 00:10:50.720 to let law and government get involved with the church, 196 00:10:50.759 --> 00:10:54.879 because that could have other other consequences that I don't 197 00:10:54.919 --> 00:10:57.360 want to delve into. I will just say that I 198 00:10:57.399 --> 00:11:00.120 do like the division of church and state and want 199 00:10:59.919 --> 00:11:02.159 to keep it that way. Go ahead, Tracy, go ahead. 200 00:11:02.279 --> 00:11:02.759 Follow up. 201 00:11:02.919 --> 00:11:05.759 I would like to say, I would really like that 202 00:11:05.840 --> 00:11:08.480 if churches stayed churches and stop trying to pretend to 203 00:11:08.519 --> 00:11:09.559 be insurance companies. 204 00:11:09.679 --> 00:11:13.159 You're right, You're right, You're absolutely right, and stop you know, 205 00:11:13.799 --> 00:11:17.120 violating their five o' one C three status and and 206 00:11:17.360 --> 00:11:21.440 you know, uh talking politics and and uh offering political 207 00:11:21.480 --> 00:11:25.080 support from their pulpits. Yeah, I get it. But coalescing 208 00:11:25.120 --> 00:11:27.720 with that, I think is also is also pretty dangerous. 209 00:11:27.759 --> 00:11:30.159 And I think, uh, you know, you raise a valid point. 210 00:11:30.440 --> 00:11:33.600 I do want to ask Stephen, though. You know, Stephen, 211 00:11:33.879 --> 00:11:44.840 you're a former Catholic, right, what is you know what 212 00:11:45.000 --> 00:11:47.600 that's perfect? That is perfect? So I'm gonna start with 213 00:11:47.639 --> 00:11:49.399 Steven and go right down the line. You know, why 214 00:11:49.440 --> 00:11:51.879 don't each of you take a moment to give me 215 00:11:52.320 --> 00:11:56.639 kind of a glimpse into what your experience was and 216 00:11:56.639 --> 00:12:00.480 and tell me you know, as former religious people, you know, 217 00:12:00.759 --> 00:12:04.360 what are the quickest ways to realize that you're kind 218 00:12:04.360 --> 00:12:06.639 of being duped And so Steven go. 219 00:12:06.639 --> 00:12:10.799 Ahead, sure, like being duped by like an organization like 220 00:12:10.840 --> 00:12:12.639 that or what yeah. 221 00:12:12.440 --> 00:12:14.519 I mean so, so I know that you feel like, 222 00:12:14.919 --> 00:12:18.320 you know, really delving into the Bible, for example, is 223 00:12:18.360 --> 00:12:22.120 a good way of showing that maybe the best the 224 00:12:22.159 --> 00:12:25.679 best interests, your best interests are not being looked after 225 00:12:25.799 --> 00:12:28.039 by by the people that say they're going to support you, 226 00:12:28.120 --> 00:12:30.480 just like these women who are giving babies, these families 227 00:12:30.480 --> 00:12:33.559 who excuse me that are having babies. But what was 228 00:12:33.600 --> 00:12:36.840 your experience like as a Catholic when did you realize, huh, 229 00:12:36.879 --> 00:12:38.320 this is not in my best interest? 230 00:12:38.639 --> 00:12:42.960 Oh yeah, interesting, like as like Mennonites are kind of 231 00:12:43.000 --> 00:12:49.240 the opposite of Catholic. But yeah, so like when I, 232 00:12:49.360 --> 00:12:51.879 for me, I would say that I would realize that, 233 00:12:52.320 --> 00:12:56.080 like my Mennonite faith wasn't in my best interest. Primarily 234 00:12:56.600 --> 00:13:00.519 when I started to realize, especially the evangelical part of it, 235 00:13:01.000 --> 00:13:04.919 that was saying that, you know, my perspective is the 236 00:13:04.960 --> 00:13:08.360 perspective that matters, and it's the perspective of others that 237 00:13:08.559 --> 00:13:10.759 I need to disregard, especially when I was doing my 238 00:13:10.799 --> 00:13:14.480 missions work like that, Like, you can only sit with 239 00:13:14.559 --> 00:13:17.080 that in a neutral state for so and so long, 240 00:13:17.240 --> 00:13:20.080 and you'll either have to like cement in and say yes, 241 00:13:20.399 --> 00:13:24.159 I am right and know they are wrong, or these 242 00:13:24.200 --> 00:13:28.039 are human beings and there is something inherent about their 243 00:13:28.120 --> 00:13:32.320 humanity that makes that I need to reflect upon and 244 00:13:32.440 --> 00:13:34.639 honor and respect. And it was only once I left 245 00:13:34.679 --> 00:13:37.960 the faith that I was really able to like actually 246 00:13:38.000 --> 00:13:42.360 respect other people again. So that was the biggest thing 247 00:13:42.399 --> 00:13:45.120 for me. It was just realizing how far I had 248 00:13:45.159 --> 00:13:48.679 come away from just respecting my fellow human being and 249 00:13:48.720 --> 00:13:51.399 it's so nice to regain that. 250 00:13:51.399 --> 00:13:53.360 That's very interesting and I think that relates a lot 251 00:13:53.399 --> 00:13:55.600 to what we talked about the other night on Monday 252 00:13:55.679 --> 00:13:58.720 Night as far as people benefiting and not benefiting and 253 00:13:58.759 --> 00:14:01.679 having respect for others. Uh, definitely gonna check that out 254 00:14:01.679 --> 00:14:04.279 if you have it. But Helen, in your experience, you know, 255 00:14:04.519 --> 00:14:07.879 when did you realize, Hey, this church, this this group 256 00:14:08.000 --> 00:14:09.600 is not They're not my people. 257 00:14:10.480 --> 00:14:12.159 When I was a teenager and I found out I 258 00:14:12.159 --> 00:14:19.279 was queer, you know, you grab in the nineties, and 259 00:14:19.679 --> 00:14:22.960 you know, and we were pretty liberal Cathics, so it 260 00:14:23.039 --> 00:14:27.159 wasn't like very extreme. I mean, like I definitely got 261 00:14:27.159 --> 00:14:30.559 some bad messaging, especially about like sexuality and things like that. 262 00:14:30.600 --> 00:14:36.639 But I realized that I had a lot of problems 263 00:14:36.799 --> 00:14:41.519 with the church, especially as a woman and as someone 264 00:14:41.720 --> 00:14:46.600 that is queer. There's a lot of mixed messaging and 265 00:14:47.279 --> 00:14:50.480 that as I got older, I realized I was like, 266 00:14:50.519 --> 00:14:52.759 wait a second, I'm like this doesn't make any sense, 267 00:14:52.919 --> 00:14:55.440 and this and this, and these groups of people don't 268 00:14:55.480 --> 00:14:59.360 really care about like rights. They don't care, you know, 269 00:15:00.120 --> 00:15:03.519 about my health. They don't care, you know, really about 270 00:15:03.559 --> 00:15:06.480 me as a person. They just what I represent to them, 271 00:15:06.519 --> 00:15:10.120 which is a baby maker. And I'm supposed to sit 272 00:15:10.159 --> 00:15:12.080 down and shut up, listen to my husband and pop 273 00:15:12.159 --> 00:15:16.200 up kids. And that's what religion teaches women, you know, 274 00:15:16.840 --> 00:15:18.840 extreme forms of religion. I don't want to say all religion. 275 00:15:18.840 --> 00:15:19.399 That's not fair. 276 00:15:21.279 --> 00:15:24.919 Luckily my parents were liberal Catholics, so that message didn't 277 00:15:24.919 --> 00:15:30.279 stick obviously. But but like getting back to the article, 278 00:15:30.440 --> 00:15:33.519 that's the thing that we're seeing though, because in these 279 00:15:33.519 --> 00:15:38.559 structures when you have you know, churches acts as insurance companies, 280 00:15:38.639 --> 00:15:41.440 and yes, I wish it was charitable, like they were 281 00:15:41.480 --> 00:15:43.120 like we're going to pull this money and then this 282 00:15:43.200 --> 00:15:46.399 way we can help follow people in our congregation or 283 00:15:46.559 --> 00:15:49.679 that are part of this faith, and when they're financially struggling, 284 00:15:49.720 --> 00:15:52.600 we will step in and help them. But there they 285 00:15:52.639 --> 00:15:55.159 operate like a business, just like everything else. They're operating 286 00:15:55.240 --> 00:15:59.120 like a private insurance company, but they're selling it as 287 00:15:59.120 --> 00:16:02.240 a charity. And that's what makes it worse, because when 288 00:16:02.240 --> 00:16:04.679 you're taught that your church is supposed to be your 289 00:16:04.720 --> 00:16:06.399 family and the people that are supposed to take care 290 00:16:06.440 --> 00:16:09.399 of you, and they don't do it. And these I 291 00:16:09.480 --> 00:16:12.120 hope they go through a religious deconversion. That'd be great, 292 00:16:12.879 --> 00:16:17.919 but even still, that still doesn't pay the bills. It 293 00:16:17.960 --> 00:16:21.639 doesn't help those families deal with the financial costs. And 294 00:16:22.080 --> 00:16:25.360 that's what religion does. It hands you a promise, but 295 00:16:25.440 --> 00:16:26.279 it doesn't deliver. 296 00:16:27.360 --> 00:16:31.679 Yeah, yeah, that's what it's based on. Tray your thoughts 297 00:16:31.720 --> 00:16:33.200 on that sentiment, Helen. 298 00:16:33.200 --> 00:16:35.519 I'm going to have to agree vehemently with everything that 299 00:16:35.559 --> 00:16:39.679 you've said, except for the part about being seen as 300 00:16:39.679 --> 00:16:40.360 a baby maker. 301 00:16:40.360 --> 00:16:40.639 I don't. 302 00:16:40.720 --> 00:16:45.519 I didn't feel that at all. But it's just going 303 00:16:45.639 --> 00:16:50.159 to immediately contradict what I said earlier. I'm going to 304 00:16:50.200 --> 00:16:53.639 immediately contradict what I said earlier about the reading, and 305 00:16:53.879 --> 00:16:56.519 the thing that ran me out of it was just 306 00:16:56.559 --> 00:16:59.840 reading the dang book. And so I'm going to contradict 307 00:16:59.879 --> 00:17:02.480 what I said earlier about hiding something in a book 308 00:17:02.519 --> 00:17:05.599 that I didn't bother to read read it. I agree. 309 00:17:05.680 --> 00:17:08.680 I agree, Jimmy read the whole thing, because that was 310 00:17:08.720 --> 00:17:11.960 when I realized, wait a second, either they're making stuff 311 00:17:12.039 --> 00:17:14.599 up that isn't in this book, or I have a 312 00:17:14.640 --> 00:17:19.359 different book. Yeah, and I'm gonna have to say I'm 313 00:17:19.400 --> 00:17:21.799 gonna have to just fall back on what you've been saying, Jimmy, 314 00:17:21.880 --> 00:17:25.400 just read the thing, familiarize yourself with it. The same 315 00:17:25.400 --> 00:17:27.279 thing with this ministry as it is with as it 316 00:17:27.359 --> 00:17:30.000 was with my religion, is I just had to actually 317 00:17:30.160 --> 00:17:32.680 sit down and read it instead of blindly accepting it. 318 00:17:33.160 --> 00:17:35.359 Yeah, I'll tell you. I mean, I have a lot 319 00:17:35.400 --> 00:17:37.720 of stories that can relate to that, but I'm going 320 00:17:37.799 --> 00:17:38.640 to use a funny one. 321 00:17:38.680 --> 00:17:38.839 You know. 322 00:17:38.920 --> 00:17:45.880 I remember our pastor just berating the audience for watching Seinfeld. 323 00:17:46.400 --> 00:17:49.559 I guess he didn't like some of the plots in Seinfeld, which, yeah, 324 00:17:49.640 --> 00:17:53.480 I mean, they tested, they certainly tests at the times, 325 00:17:53.519 --> 00:17:57.400 didn't they. But then my parents went home and watched Sidefeld. 326 00:17:57.480 --> 00:17:59.720 They continue, I'm like, nobody gives a shit with this 327 00:17:59.759 --> 00:18:02.680 guy saying like this is not legitimate, and it just 328 00:18:02.799 --> 00:18:05.960 kind of just kind of cemented my my feelings. But 329 00:18:07.079 --> 00:18:10.240 you know, back back to the topic though, what you know, 330 00:18:10.680 --> 00:18:14.519 how do we give these people credit? How do we 331 00:18:14.559 --> 00:18:18.039 give them a little bit of guidance uh in breaking 332 00:18:18.079 --> 00:18:20.400 out of this cycle? Because I think it's it's really 333 00:18:20.440 --> 00:18:24.759 fair to say that. Uh to Hellan's point, people, Uh, 334 00:18:24.920 --> 00:18:27.880 you know, they they're raised with this idea that everything's 335 00:18:27.960 --> 00:18:29.839 going to be panned out for them, and here they 336 00:18:29.880 --> 00:18:31.920 are with a child and now they want to build 337 00:18:31.960 --> 00:18:34.720 a family and keep having children. At some point you 338 00:18:34.799 --> 00:18:38.200 have to break that cycle. So you know, to your point, uh, 339 00:18:38.359 --> 00:18:42.119 Tracy when you say, like how many minds must collapse, 340 00:18:42.119 --> 00:18:44.200 how many factories need to burn? And I'm just going 341 00:18:44.240 --> 00:18:49.200 over your notes before before people realize that this is 342 00:18:49.200 --> 00:18:51.480 not a recipe for balance, you know, can you expand 343 00:18:51.519 --> 00:18:53.160 on that? What do you what are you trying to 344 00:18:53.200 --> 00:18:53.559 get at? 345 00:18:54.400 --> 00:18:57.039 So? Uh, what I'm what I'm trying to get at 346 00:18:57.240 --> 00:19:02.359 is the attraction of the free as is always brought 347 00:19:02.440 --> 00:19:06.480 up in political discussions, especially with the right or with 348 00:19:06.960 --> 00:19:11.519 the even further right, that the free market. Is this fantastic. 349 00:19:11.640 --> 00:19:14.640 If you just let a company do its thing and 350 00:19:14.640 --> 00:19:16.839 you don't regulate it and you don't give it any rules, 351 00:19:17.039 --> 00:19:19.359 then everything will work out magically and everything will be 352 00:19:19.400 --> 00:19:24.200 okay because if it'll find a balance. No, that won't happen. 353 00:19:24.359 --> 00:19:29.599 We've seen that repeatedly not happen with slavery and with 354 00:19:29.839 --> 00:19:35.160 the triangle shirtcoat factory fires just and all of the 355 00:19:35.359 --> 00:19:39.400 minds that collapse due to underregulation or no regulation or 356 00:19:39.440 --> 00:19:42.400 people just lying about what they're doing in those minds. 357 00:19:43.920 --> 00:19:48.440 Regulation is needed because business owners have shown business owners, churches, 358 00:19:48.680 --> 00:19:51.359 insurance companies, whatever you want to say, they have shown 359 00:19:51.559 --> 00:19:55.200 repeatedly and repeatedly that they cannot be trusted to do 360 00:19:55.319 --> 00:20:00.000 whatever they want. People have shown that they cannot be 361 00:20:00.079 --> 00:20:03.960 trusted to do whatever they want in entirety. Will you 362 00:20:04.079 --> 00:20:07.920 have a company here or there Arizona Costco that will 363 00:20:07.960 --> 00:20:11.200 make some good decisions and will do good things. Of 364 00:20:11.240 --> 00:20:14.359 course you will, but that won't be the majority. The 365 00:20:14.359 --> 00:20:17.319 majority of people who will go and start a business 366 00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:22.119 get to starting a business and then become successful by 367 00:20:22.279 --> 00:20:26.519 screwing others over. That's how you get money in a 368 00:20:26.759 --> 00:20:30.200 capitalist society anyway, is by screwing others over, and so 369 00:20:30.400 --> 00:20:32.880 it's not going to balance itself. You can't just have 370 00:20:33.000 --> 00:20:35.640 everybody screwing everyone else over. There's got to be somebody 371 00:20:35.640 --> 00:20:36.359 at the top. 372 00:20:36.240 --> 00:20:39.000 While somebody's getting screwed in more ways than one in 373 00:20:39.000 --> 00:20:43.720 this article, they're having babies, they're losing money. And you know, 374 00:20:43.880 --> 00:20:47.319 Helen on that note, you know, is this and I 375 00:20:47.400 --> 00:20:50.960 know that we are empathetic toward the people who are 376 00:20:51.000 --> 00:20:54.319 getting screwed over, But is this just a matter of 377 00:20:54.359 --> 00:20:57.519 the church not doing the right thing? Or is this 378 00:20:58.039 --> 00:21:01.440 a larger failure of our GOVERNMD, of our healthcare system. 379 00:21:01.880 --> 00:21:03.160 Who's really to blame for this? 380 00:21:04.559 --> 00:21:05.720 It's it's kind of twofold. 381 00:21:05.960 --> 00:21:08.119 And I do put a little bit of blame with 382 00:21:08.119 --> 00:21:10.920 the family. I'm not going to sit there and say 383 00:21:10.920 --> 00:21:14.359 they're completely hands clean of this, because when you become 384 00:21:14.400 --> 00:21:16.519 a pairing, you have to be responsible for that child 385 00:21:16.799 --> 00:21:19.799 and you need to be and even and I understand 386 00:21:19.880 --> 00:21:26.720 that they are closed off, and I wish that they 387 00:21:26.759 --> 00:21:31.319 had considered them maybe we might not get the financial 388 00:21:31.319 --> 00:21:34.400 help that we need. Like I just wish that thought 389 00:21:34.440 --> 00:21:36.079 had just flittered across the brain. 390 00:21:36.160 --> 00:21:36.519 They didn't. 391 00:21:36.640 --> 00:21:38.440 They didn't even have to think about like leaving the 392 00:21:38.519 --> 00:21:40.759 church or anything and just flitter across the brain. Maybe 393 00:21:40.759 --> 00:21:42.759 we will not get the help that we are going we. 394 00:21:42.640 --> 00:21:44.839 Will get, you know, that'd be nice. 395 00:21:44.960 --> 00:21:48.200 But either way, this is but this is an abuse 396 00:21:48.240 --> 00:21:50.279 of the system when we're living in a post capitalist 397 00:21:50.400 --> 00:21:55.400 society and insurance companies are screwing everybody and you are 398 00:21:55.440 --> 00:22:00.000 relying on charity, which shouldn't happen for healthcare. We should 399 00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:02.680 I mean relying on charity to take care of our 400 00:22:02.720 --> 00:22:07.599 health care. It should be a human right. And our 401 00:22:07.680 --> 00:22:09.440