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No purchase necessary void, We're prohibited by law 29 00:00:56.799 --> 00:01:01.399 eighteen plus terms and conditions apply. See website for Das Loop. 30 00:01:11.519 --> 00:01:14.959 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 31 00:01:15.040 --> 00:01:18.079 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 32 00:01:18.159 --> 00:01:25.439 written about them Gaesy, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK Every 33 00:01:25.480 --> 00:01:29.159 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 34 00:01:29.239 --> 00:01:33.439 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 35 00:01:33.480 --> 00:01:49.280 host journalist and author Dan Zupanski. Good Evening. Ever wondered 36 00:01:49.319 --> 00:01:53.480 who murdered John Bennet Ramsey, or who terrorized San Francisco 37 00:01:53.680 --> 00:01:57.680 as the Zodiac Killer, puzzled over the notorious Black Valia 38 00:01:57.760 --> 00:02:01.959 murder or the mysterious Long Island serial killer case. This 39 00:02:02.000 --> 00:02:05.439 true crime book makes you the detective investigating some of 40 00:02:05.480 --> 00:02:08.520 the most infamous unsolved cases of the twentieth and twenty 41 00:02:08.520 --> 00:02:13.639 first centuries. Crime scenes, crucial evidence, witnesses, and persons of 42 00:02:13.680 --> 00:02:18.840 interest are clearly and concisely presented, along with essential details 43 00:02:18.840 --> 00:02:21.719 and clues, so you can judge for yourself who could 44 00:02:21.719 --> 00:02:26.280 have done it. Unsolved Murders also profiles the psychology of 45 00:02:26.280 --> 00:02:30.199 the killer, discusses the background and life of the unfortunate 46 00:02:30.280 --> 00:02:34.000 victim or victims, and explores how these horrific crimes impacted 47 00:02:34.039 --> 00:02:38.680 the victim's family and friends. From domestic tragedies to serial killers. 48 00:02:38.680 --> 00:02:41.520 With a love for the macabre, this book will have 49 00:02:41.599 --> 00:02:45.319 you returning to the cases again and again. Can you 50 00:02:45.400 --> 00:02:49.159 unlock the secrets of these unsolved crimes where others have failed? 51 00:02:50.120 --> 00:02:52.919 The book that we're featuring the seating is Unsolved Murders, 52 00:02:53.280 --> 00:02:56.840 True Crime Cases Uncovered with my special guest, journalist and 53 00:02:56.879 --> 00:03:00.240 author Amber Hunt. Welcome back to the program. Thank you 54 00:03:00.360 --> 00:03:03.120 very much for Greens's interview. Amber Hunt. 55 00:03:04.400 --> 00:03:05.919 Hi, thanks so much for having me. 56 00:03:06.919 --> 00:03:09.400 Thank you very much for joining me. For joining us 57 00:03:09.439 --> 00:03:14.280 once again. Tell us a little bit about the genesis 58 00:03:14.319 --> 00:03:17.280 of this project. This is a book co written with 59 00:03:17.800 --> 00:03:21.240 Emily Thompson. Tell us a little bit about the book 60 00:03:21.240 --> 00:03:23.400 itself and how it came to be. 61 00:03:23.919 --> 00:03:26.840 You know, it's funny. I'm a journalist by trade. I 62 00:03:26.840 --> 00:03:30.439 work for the Cincinnati Inquirer, and sometimes you get a 63 00:03:30.439 --> 00:03:33.960 story assignment. Sometimes you come up with the idea yourself. 64 00:03:34.439 --> 00:03:40.879 This one was more the former. The publishing company reached out, 65 00:03:41.080 --> 00:03:44.120 said they had an idea and asked if I wanted 66 00:03:44.120 --> 00:03:46.680 to be part of it, and I thought it sounded 67 00:03:46.719 --> 00:03:50.159 really interesting and said sure. And my co author is 68 00:03:50.199 --> 00:03:54.000 Emily G. Thompson. She's Irish, so we've never met. She's 69 00:03:54.039 --> 00:03:58.319 on the other side of the pond. And what impressed 70 00:03:58.400 --> 00:04:01.360 me the most. First off, it's been fun to get 71 00:04:01.400 --> 00:04:04.800 to know her through you know, the project, because she 72 00:04:04.879 --> 00:04:08.919 and I are very we're kind of similar souls. But 73 00:04:10.360 --> 00:04:13.400 what's amazing to me is that when you read the book, 74 00:04:13.400 --> 00:04:15.560 I don't think you'd be able to tell who wrote what. 75 00:04:15.719 --> 00:04:19.000 Our writing styles really mesh. 76 00:04:19.040 --> 00:04:24.680 Absolutely, yes, very similar. I couldn't tell, certainly. 77 00:04:26.839 --> 00:04:29.600 Sorry. What intrigued me about it was just this idea 78 00:04:29.680 --> 00:04:33.800 that you would have, you know, all of these cases 79 00:04:35.319 --> 00:04:41.519 in one place, and and while there are short sections 80 00:04:41.519 --> 00:04:44.240 on each, we really researched the hell out of it. 81 00:04:44.279 --> 00:04:47.160 I mean, they're they're very detailed, so you get a 82 00:04:47.199 --> 00:04:49.759 lot of information in some of the cases I knew 83 00:04:49.800 --> 00:04:52.680 nothing about, and you know I cover crimes for a living. 84 00:04:53.480 --> 00:04:57.279 Right, Absolutely, Yes, there's an incredible amount of detail, just 85 00:04:57.360 --> 00:05:02.279 compressed in fewer pages than if you explored them fully completely. 86 00:05:02.839 --> 00:05:06.720 That would be a volume of work. Absolutely, tell us 87 00:05:06.720 --> 00:05:09.519 some of the cases as you do, what are the 88 00:05:09.519 --> 00:05:12.720 famous cases, infamous cases that people might know of, but 89 00:05:13.040 --> 00:05:15.399 tell us the overview of the cases that are covered 90 00:05:15.839 --> 00:05:17.879 and the stories that are covered in this book. I'm 91 00:05:17.920 --> 00:05:19.120 solve murders. 92 00:05:20.199 --> 00:05:23.439 There's a huge array of them. One that I learned 93 00:05:23.759 --> 00:05:26.000 a lot about that I knew nothing about, with the 94 00:05:26.079 --> 00:05:29.920 Voliska Axe murders. This is in the early nineteen hundreds, 95 00:05:30.000 --> 00:05:35.560 nineteen twelve, and it's in Iowa, which is where I 96 00:05:35.639 --> 00:05:38.519 graduated high school. So I was a little surprised. I 97 00:05:38.519 --> 00:05:40.920 had never heard of it. But this was basically a 98 00:05:41.639 --> 00:05:46.000 farm family slain in their house. There was a high 99 00:05:46.079 --> 00:05:53.360 profile Hollywood murder, William Desmond Taylor. I had heard the name, 100 00:05:53.480 --> 00:05:55.639 but didn't know the details of the case. And then 101 00:05:55.680 --> 00:06:01.079 of course there's a black Dahlia. There's Zodiac that I 102 00:06:01.120 --> 00:06:04.199 added to the list myself with the Oakland County child 103 00:06:04.439 --> 00:06:09.399 killings because I used to I covered crime in Detroit 104 00:06:09.480 --> 00:06:13.439 for nearly eight years and that case always bothered and 105 00:06:13.480 --> 00:06:16.560 resonated with me. So that was one that I added. 106 00:06:17.680 --> 00:06:19.480 But there's a huge array, and some of them are, 107 00:06:19.600 --> 00:06:21.480 you know, over on the other side of the pond too. 108 00:06:23.040 --> 00:06:27.959 Absolutely, it is a very very interesting collection from all 109 00:06:27.959 --> 00:06:31.199 over the world. Let's get to one of the most 110 00:06:31.199 --> 00:06:35.199 famous cases, and that's the back Dalia case in nineteen 111 00:06:35.240 --> 00:06:38.879 forty seven. You call it death of a dreamer. Tell 112 00:06:38.920 --> 00:06:41.959 us a little bit about you've talked open this at 113 00:06:42.040 --> 00:06:48.360 January fifteenth, nineteen forty seven, and la housewife Betty Berzinger 114 00:06:48.759 --> 00:06:50.399 is out for a shoe repair with a three year 115 00:06:50.399 --> 00:06:54.480 old daughter. An tell us what happens on that walk 116 00:06:54.519 --> 00:06:56.959 to go to the shoe repair that day. 117 00:06:58.199 --> 00:07:04.000 Well, Betty notice something in this vacant lot, because they're 118 00:07:04.000 --> 00:07:07.639 walking along these like you know, brushy vacant areas, and 119 00:07:08.040 --> 00:07:10.639 she spot something white and she kind of squints and 120 00:07:10.639 --> 00:07:14.639 looks at it and realizes that it's in the form 121 00:07:14.680 --> 00:07:17.879 of a person. But she thinks that the mannequin and 122 00:07:18.319 --> 00:07:21.079 one that's just been discarded because it's been two pieces, 123 00:07:21.639 --> 00:07:24.839 And then she suddenly realizes with horror that it is 124 00:07:24.959 --> 00:07:30.079 a human, and so she runs to the nearest house 125 00:07:30.160 --> 00:07:33.920 with a phone and calls police. And that is how 126 00:07:34.839 --> 00:07:37.199 that's how the body was discovered. 127 00:07:38.839 --> 00:07:40.480 Along with some of the other things that we're going 128 00:07:40.560 --> 00:07:44.079 to cover in terms of uniqueness. What is the uniqueness 129 00:07:44.079 --> 00:07:46.759 in terms of the state of the body found at 130 00:07:46.800 --> 00:07:49.040 that crime scene by that woman. But later, of course 131 00:07:49.040 --> 00:07:51.720 she runs away, But what the police find. 132 00:07:54.160 --> 00:07:54.600 This was. 133 00:07:56.160 --> 00:07:59.959 This made all the headlines because in part Elizabeth Shore. 134 00:08:00.160 --> 00:08:02.839 The black value was gorgeous, but also because the death 135 00:08:02.920 --> 00:08:06.199 was particularly gruesome. I mean, she was cut in half, 136 00:08:06.720 --> 00:08:12.000 her face was disfigured, as in the sides of her 137 00:08:12.000 --> 00:08:15.839 mouth were split in this gruesome, exaggerated smile. 138 00:08:16.439 --> 00:08:16.759 It was. 139 00:08:18.199 --> 00:08:20.560 It was just incredibly violent. 140 00:08:24.680 --> 00:08:30.680 Was there any indication that this was possibly surgically done? 141 00:08:30.680 --> 00:08:33.960 How precise was this or was this was, like I say, 142 00:08:34.000 --> 00:08:34.720 a butcher job. 143 00:08:36.399 --> 00:08:40.600 There was always some suspicion that whoever did this had 144 00:08:40.600 --> 00:08:45.639 some kind of medical training because of where the the 145 00:08:46.039 --> 00:08:51.639 bisection occurred. So it didn't I mean it was a 146 00:08:51.679 --> 00:08:54.480 butcher job and that it's a human being who's in half, 147 00:08:54.559 --> 00:08:58.159 but they did think that there was some skill behind it. 148 00:09:00.080 --> 00:09:03.080 You also include that she was again very unique is 149 00:09:03.320 --> 00:09:06.000 drained of her blood and then as you mentioned, but 150 00:09:06.159 --> 00:09:09.840 posing a very bizarre spread eagle display and rope marks 151 00:09:09.879 --> 00:09:14.679 on her ankles, wrists, and throat. And you say that 152 00:09:14.759 --> 00:09:19.080 police had determined or believed that she was hung upside 153 00:09:19.080 --> 00:09:22.600 down by her feet and tortured for hours before her death. 154 00:09:24.480 --> 00:09:27.159 Yes, it seems, and it's it's hard to fathom what 155 00:09:27.200 --> 00:09:32.480 on earth anyone could do to warrant somebody treating you 156 00:09:32.519 --> 00:09:37.039 that way, but certainly not. You know, some young beautiful 157 00:09:37.080 --> 00:09:41.000 want to be actress. You know, it's they never did 158 00:09:41.159 --> 00:09:45.919 find anything in her path. I quite pointed to that 159 00:09:46.399 --> 00:09:51.600 kind of death being warranted or yes, so she was 160 00:09:51.679 --> 00:09:54.559 hung upside down, she was, she was strained of blood. 161 00:09:54.720 --> 00:09:58.360 They're thinking, is that you know, she was tortured for 162 00:09:58.399 --> 00:10:00.919 a very long time before she it was finally killed. 163 00:10:01.600 --> 00:10:07.879 It was. It was just as brutal as I've seen. 164 00:10:09.240 --> 00:10:12.000 And it's for me. One of the really interesting things 165 00:10:12.039 --> 00:10:14.320 about not just this case, but a couple of the 166 00:10:14.360 --> 00:10:19.000 others too, is how much the police had to fight 167 00:10:22.240 --> 00:10:26.000 rumors because you know, people complain about the media today, 168 00:10:26.159 --> 00:10:29.799 but back then rumors made it into print a lot 169 00:10:29.799 --> 00:10:33.960 more than they do now. And also false confessions. It 170 00:10:34.039 --> 00:10:37.960 is amazing the number of people who step forward to 171 00:10:38.080 --> 00:10:42.480 take claim when something horrific like this happened. 172 00:10:42.960 --> 00:10:45.720 That was absolutely shocking. The stats and we'll go over 173 00:10:45.759 --> 00:10:49.480 those stats, but it was that was very, very shocking. 174 00:10:50.360 --> 00:10:55.080 Tell us tell our audience how she this Elizabeth Short 175 00:10:55.159 --> 00:10:59.080 gets the nickname the Black Dallian. What is this? And 176 00:10:59.159 --> 00:11:01.080 what is this? Reference too? 177 00:11:02.679 --> 00:11:08.720 There was a movie called The Blue Dahlia so which 178 00:11:08.799 --> 00:11:10.960 was popular at the time so it was kind of 179 00:11:10.960 --> 00:11:13.440 pulled from that, and it was changed to black because 180 00:11:14.000 --> 00:11:18.000 she had, you know, this raven dark hair and she 181 00:11:18.240 --> 00:11:21.320 liked to wear black clothing. So really it was sort 182 00:11:21.320 --> 00:11:25.639 of a pulled from the headlines kind of moniker. 183 00:11:29.039 --> 00:11:32.200 We talked about Elizabeth Short, this beautiful wanna be actress. 184 00:11:32.240 --> 00:11:36.440 She had done some film extra work and auditioned for jobs. 185 00:11:36.440 --> 00:11:42.559 She was again actively trying to be an actress. But 186 00:11:42.639 --> 00:11:45.679 tell us what the media did after this murder and 187 00:11:45.720 --> 00:11:48.639 team in terms of its importance. How did they present 188 00:11:48.720 --> 00:11:52.600 this case and how much of an impact did it 189 00:11:52.720 --> 00:11:54.600 have with the media and then with the public. 190 00:11:56.240 --> 00:11:59.320 It's funny. I just did an interview yesterday where somebody 191 00:11:59.399 --> 00:12:02.159 was talking to me about the They're asking about the 192 00:12:03.879 --> 00:12:07.480 increase in interest in true crime. You know, it's really 193 00:12:07.879 --> 00:12:11.080 it's not an increase because there's always been a strange 194 00:12:11.120 --> 00:12:15.799 fascination with true crime. And in this era where that 195 00:12:15.840 --> 00:12:19.720 came out was largely in the newspaper. So there were 196 00:12:19.759 --> 00:12:23.720 all of these stories. I mean, every single quarter turn 197 00:12:23.799 --> 00:12:28.240 that you could report on this case was front page news. 198 00:12:28.360 --> 00:12:35.159 So for an example, a friend of Elizabeth said that 199 00:12:36.039 --> 00:12:40.080 Elizabeth had bragged about being friends with an actress who 200 00:12:40.080 --> 00:12:44.240 was famous at the time named and Todd and so UPI, 201 00:12:44.639 --> 00:12:48.639 which is a wire service. They announced that the police 202 00:12:48.639 --> 00:12:53.440 would question this and Todd, who was a who is British. 203 00:12:54.080 --> 00:12:57.120 So Todd then tells them that she'd never met her. 204 00:12:57.360 --> 00:13:00.399 But this was all instead of reporting it out first 205 00:13:00.559 --> 00:13:03.759 and it being debunked and therefore not worthy of a story. 206 00:13:04.240 --> 00:13:07.080 The whole thing, like every turn of it, was front 207 00:13:07.080 --> 00:13:12.080 page news. And there were a lot of potential suspects. 208 00:13:12.159 --> 00:13:14.799 I have to say, you know, for this being an 209 00:13:14.879 --> 00:13:18.559 unsolved case, it does look like police were pretty thorough. 210 00:13:18.679 --> 00:13:23.720 They interviewed more than one hundred and fifty suspects, But 211 00:13:23.840 --> 00:13:28.759 every time a name was leaked, it was that person 212 00:13:28.840 --> 00:13:31.440 was guilty at least for a day, and it was just, 213 00:13:31.679 --> 00:13:36.519 you know, the headlines were absolutely merciless. 214 00:13:38.840 --> 00:13:42.159 You talk about all kinds of suspects one after another 215 00:13:42.279 --> 00:13:46.279 being arrested and getting a guilty man's treatment for one day. 216 00:13:47.000 --> 00:13:52.159 And they had other suspects that maybe they were investigating 217 00:13:52.159 --> 00:13:54.399 for a week or so before they could clear them. 218 00:13:54.679 --> 00:13:56.519 And again, like you say, the papers would run with 219 00:13:56.559 --> 00:14:01.039 any kind of rumor that was leaked to them. What 220 00:14:01.240 --> 00:14:04.759 was the idea that police did have or did they 221 00:14:04.799 --> 00:14:06.919 have anything concrete in terms of whether it was a man, 222 00:14:07.200 --> 00:14:09.879 whether it was a woman, and what was their theory 223 00:14:09.919 --> 00:14:11.840 on terms of what had happened. 224 00:14:13.919 --> 00:14:19.519 They did contemplate whether it could have been a woman, 225 00:14:20.759 --> 00:14:24.799 but there was also I mean, it would have been difficult. 226 00:14:26.120 --> 00:14:32.080 While Elizabeth was petite, it's still physically tough to imagine 227 00:14:32.360 --> 00:14:35.840 another woman lifting her up, getting her upside down and 228 00:14:35.879 --> 00:14:39.240 doing all of that by herself at least, So they 229 00:14:39.320 --> 00:14:46.799 always were leaning toward mail and then you know, it 230 00:14:46.879 --> 00:14:50.440 turns out we have the benefit of hindsight, and it 231 00:14:50.519 --> 00:14:55.080 turns out that they had some pretty strong front runners, 232 00:14:55.480 --> 00:15:00.600 but they never could quite make the case. And one 233 00:15:00.639 --> 00:15:07.559 of them was a doctor who is still largely on 234 00:15:08.399 --> 00:15:13.039 you know, most Officionado's you know list of favorites. 235 00:15:16.399 --> 00:15:20.159 And why is that you talk about that person's effort, 236 00:15:20.200 --> 00:15:24.120 Stephen Hodell. Talk about Stephen Hodell and how it becomes 237 00:15:24.480 --> 00:15:29.200 his book. But as you write, his father, this doctor 238 00:15:29.399 --> 00:15:33.919 was a suspect at that time, right. 239 00:15:34.480 --> 00:15:39.080 Steve Hodell wrote a book about his dad, and I 240 00:15:39.120 --> 00:15:41.840 found it one of the fun things researching the book. 241 00:15:41.879 --> 00:15:45.559 I'm really big on going through newspaper archives. I found 242 00:15:45.600 --> 00:15:51.200 all these stories written at the time but Steve Hodell 243 00:15:51.919 --> 00:15:55.879 were he was interviewed in two thousand and three by 244 00:15:55.879 --> 00:16:00.320 the AP and he had said that he saw some 245 00:16:00.399 --> 00:16:06.279 photos in his doctor father, George Hodell's wallet. That man 246 00:16:06.639 --> 00:16:11.000 looked to him an awful lot like tough to tell. 247 00:16:11.879 --> 00:16:15.000 There are some people who've done, you know, analyzes of 248 00:16:15.440 --> 00:16:19.519 the photos and they're not convinced. But bolstering that is 249 00:16:19.559 --> 00:16:23.759 that Hodell was actually a suspect in her murder. And 250 00:16:23.840 --> 00:16:27.240 we know that because some of the case files were 251 00:16:27.279 --> 00:16:31.000 released fifty years after she was killed, and he's lifted 252 00:16:31.039 --> 00:16:36.519 in there, and in fact, there were this George Hodell 253 00:16:36.879 --> 00:16:41.320 had been tried for committing incest with his daughter. He 254 00:16:41.759 --> 00:16:46.919 was acquitted, but when they were investigating that, when officials 255 00:16:46.919 --> 00:16:50.960 were investigating him, they were taping his conversations and some 256 00:16:51.000 --> 00:16:55.440 of them included Hodels saying things like suppose and I 257 00:16:55.480 --> 00:16:59.440 did kill her. They couldn't prove it now, so those 258 00:16:59.480 --> 00:17:03.480 are kind of a suspicious comments for an innocent person 259 00:17:03.519 --> 00:17:07.039 to make. So Steve Rodell ended up being absolutely convinced 260 00:17:07.079 --> 00:17:12.759 that his father was the killer. And lending credence to 261 00:17:12.799 --> 00:17:17.759 Odell is that he's he worked for the Los Angeles 262 00:17:17.839 --> 00:17:21.240 Police Department for quite a while. It's not like he 263 00:17:21.359 --> 00:17:28.119 was just somebody off the street with no law enforcement instincts. 264 00:17:28.559 --> 00:17:31.359 Black Dalua too is the case of one of those 265 00:17:31.359 --> 00:17:35.119 cases that seems eerily like what could happen today with 266 00:17:35.640 --> 00:17:39.559 the letter created from words and letters cut from magazines 267 00:17:39.720 --> 00:17:46.039 and papers and sent to police or the media. And 268 00:17:48.039 --> 00:17:51.599 what do experts today think about that letter and who 269 00:17:51.720 --> 00:17:53.920 might have sent that? What was the investigation at that 270 00:17:54.039 --> 00:17:55.440 time surrounding that. 271 00:17:55.960 --> 00:18:03.519 Oh yeah, pretty soon after Abe died there were there 272 00:18:03.640 --> 00:18:07.559 was this letter made out of these strange like clippings, 273 00:18:07.759 --> 00:18:11.759 and it was sent to the examiner and it said 274 00:18:11.799 --> 00:18:17.519 something like, uh, I will give up uh in Dalia 275 00:18:17.640 --> 00:18:19.920 killing if I get ten years. But it's so they 276 00:18:19.960 --> 00:18:25.400 were basically like trying to say hint at that whoever 277 00:18:25.400 --> 00:18:29.240 the killer was was interested in giving himself up, But 278 00:18:29.400 --> 00:18:32.920 then he I believe he's sent a follow up saying 279 00:18:33.759 --> 00:18:42.400 basically never mind. There has always been some skepticism whether 280 00:18:42.480 --> 00:18:46.319 that was one of the crazy red herring, you know 281 00:18:48.119 --> 00:18:51.720 type situations where somebody's trying to insert themselves into the case, 282 00:18:52.200 --> 00:18:55.440 or whether it's real now now one of them. A 283 00:18:55.519 --> 00:19:01.359 letter came out that included Elizabeth this birth certificate, her 284 00:19:01.440 --> 00:19:07.279 address book, some of her personal papers, and then and 285 00:19:07.440 --> 00:19:11.720 that one. Obviously they were pretty comfortable with being legitimate. 286 00:19:14.160 --> 00:19:17.599 There were other theories as well, and people endeavored to 287 00:19:17.599 --> 00:19:20.279 write books up based on those theories. You talk about 288 00:19:20.279 --> 00:19:24.039 British author pu eat Well, what was the theory that 289 00:19:24.160 --> 00:19:27.559 he put forward regarding this Black Value murder? 290 00:19:29.640 --> 00:19:31.680 You know what, I have to remind myself which one 291 00:19:31.720 --> 00:19:33.920 that was, because there are so many freaking. 292 00:19:35.680 --> 00:19:40.079 He thought that that the Black Value murder was with 293 00:19:40.160 --> 00:19:43.240 his friend Connors and Mark Hanson, a local nightclub and 294 00:19:43.319 --> 00:19:44.200 movie theater owner. 295 00:19:45.519 --> 00:19:52.880 Thank you, go ahead, I'm sorry. 296 00:19:52.400 --> 00:19:54.400 No, I'm just I'm saying, I'm just reminding you of. 297 00:19:55.440 --> 00:19:59.200 Yeah, thank you, So yeah there. So Eatwell was a 298 00:19:59.240 --> 00:20:08.880 British author and his theory centered around Leslie Dylan, who 299 00:20:08.960 --> 00:20:14.799 was a bell hop. So the bell hop had in 300 00:20:15.039 --> 00:20:19.079 nineteen forty nine reached out to a doctor a saying 301 00:20:19.160 --> 00:20:22.039 he wanted to talk about the book for or the 302 00:20:22.119 --> 00:20:24.480 murder for a book he wanted to write, and the 303 00:20:24.559 --> 00:20:29.480 doctor got suspicious. And the bell hop had previously worked 304 00:20:30.160 --> 00:20:36.440 for mortician, and so that notion that her blood had 305 00:20:36.440 --> 00:20:42.200 been drained stood out because that is something that a 306 00:20:42.279 --> 00:20:45.319 person working to assist a mortician would know how to do. 307 00:20:46.839 --> 00:20:47.000 So. 308 00:20:47.680 --> 00:20:55.279 The Eatwell book proposed that Dylan had orchestrated the murder 309 00:20:55.880 --> 00:20:59.640 and he had worked with a friend of his named 310 00:20:59.680 --> 00:21:02.519 j Justic Connors, who had also been interviewed but released 311 00:21:03.000 --> 00:21:07.039 and then and Connors had also worked with Mark Hanson, 312 00:21:07.079 --> 00:21:09.680 a local nightclub a movie theater owner, and that's sort 313 00:21:09.720 --> 00:21:16.519 of where the Elizabeth connection comes in. Hanson was known 314 00:21:16.799 --> 00:21:23.400 to seduce women like Elizabeth. So the thought was that 315 00:21:23.400 --> 00:21:27.680 that the three of them actually were able to work 316 00:21:27.720 --> 00:21:30.799 together and because there was this trio, that they were 317 00:21:30.880 --> 00:21:34.680 able to get away with it. It is difficult, though, 318 00:21:34.680 --> 00:21:41.079 because each of these these theories, uh, there are pros 319 00:21:41.119 --> 00:21:44.599 and cons and some people are fervently you know, in 320 00:21:44.640 --> 00:21:49.279 the column of one theory or another. But for me, 321 00:21:49.400 --> 00:21:54.000 there there's nothing that is wrapped up in a bow. 322 00:21:54.240 --> 00:21:57.200 I mean, for me, the the the strongest one I 323 00:21:57.240 --> 00:22:02.079 think is is the Hodel theory. But it's a little 324 00:22:03.400 --> 00:22:05.720 I mean, they didn't have enough evidence, so. 325 00:22:06.279 --> 00:22:10.599 Who knows, right, right, And as you're right too, they 326 00:22:10.839 --> 00:22:16.200 put him under surveillance for three weeks in nineteen fifty, 327 00:22:16.440 --> 00:22:19.839 you're right, so they you would imagine that they did 328 00:22:20.079 --> 00:22:23.759 do some kind of thorough, thorough look at this person 329 00:22:23.839 --> 00:22:26.839 as a suspect, right, But then. 330 00:22:26.720 --> 00:22:29.480 You know, there's probably a three week span you could 331 00:22:29.480 --> 00:22:31.440 have watched Ted Bundy and not been tipped off to 332 00:22:31.480 --> 00:22:32.160 anything too. 333 00:22:32.839 --> 00:22:34.640 So sure, certainly it is. 334 00:22:34.640 --> 00:22:35.160 Hard to know. 335 00:22:35.720 --> 00:22:42.000 Yeah, yeah, certainly. Let's talk about another case. And like 336 00:22:42.039 --> 00:22:44.960 you say that when you worked in Detroit for eight years, 337 00:22:45.000 --> 00:22:48.759 this was a case that really impacted you. The Oakland 338 00:22:48.799 --> 00:22:53.319 County child killings. You call it stranger danger. This chapter 339 00:22:53.799 --> 00:22:59.079 four terrifying kidnappings and murders, two male victims and two females. 340 00:22:59.519 --> 00:23:01.799 Tell us, right, as you do write in the book, 341 00:23:02.000 --> 00:23:06.839 what is the interesting or unusual aspect a both the 342 00:23:06.920 --> 00:23:08.839 victims and sexual assault? 343 00:23:09.200 --> 00:23:14.880 With these four victims, what's interesting for the time is 344 00:23:14.880 --> 00:23:21.240 that they were very thoroughly cleaned, which kind of. 345 00:23:21.880 --> 00:23:24.920 Means the killer was a bit ahead of his time 346 00:23:25.000 --> 00:23:30.240 because in nineteen seventy six there was no DNA yet. 347 00:23:30.599 --> 00:23:36.240 Two of the victims, the two boys, investigators thought they 348 00:23:36.599 --> 00:23:39.599 looked like they had been sexually assaulted, but the girls 349 00:23:39.640 --> 00:23:44.400 had not. This one did resonate a lot with me, 350 00:23:45.039 --> 00:23:48.559 first off, because it still haunts the area. So if 351 00:23:48.599 --> 00:23:52.000 you've lived in Michigan for any amount of time in 352 00:23:52.039 --> 00:23:55.480 the Metro Detroit area, you've at least heard of this case. 353 00:23:56.359 --> 00:24:02.720 But it also resonates because I'm a mom and there's 354 00:24:02.920 --> 00:24:05.319 a story of one of the kids. In particular, his 355 00:24:06.920 --> 00:24:12.759 parents had even once the murder started, His parents had 356 00:24:12.799 --> 00:24:14.680 said to him, you know, okay, so what do you do? 357 00:24:14.880 --> 00:24:15.200 You? 358 00:24:15.200 --> 00:24:18.200 You know, somebody ask you to get in their car, 359 00:24:18.799 --> 00:24:20.920 and the kid knows the answer is to run away, 360 00:24:21.039 --> 00:24:23.599 but he ends up in a car. 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