WEBVTT 1 00:00:12.880 --> 00:00:14.960 Welcome to Destiny. 2 00:00:16.000 --> 00:00:18.320 Now here's your host, Cliff Dunning. 3 00:00:20.280 --> 00:00:23.679 I got to say this about today's podcast. This is 4 00:00:23.719 --> 00:00:27.879 the first time that I've had a weather incident. We 5 00:00:27.960 --> 00:00:32.000 got snow on the East Coast. I'm here in northern California, 6 00:00:32.079 --> 00:00:34.280 in the San Francisco Bay Area. I think most people 7 00:00:34.320 --> 00:00:38.799 know that, and we have We've had a bad rain 8 00:00:40.240 --> 00:00:42.240 for the last We've had a consistent rain for the 9 00:00:42.320 --> 00:00:44.840 last week. But on the East Coast they're having blizzards 10 00:00:45.640 --> 00:00:50.600 and the snow has affected a lot of people's flights 11 00:00:50.640 --> 00:00:55.119 and activities. And this week's guest I had to cancel. 12 00:00:56.200 --> 00:00:59.039 They had to cancel Earth Aches. It's like get on 13 00:00:59.079 --> 00:01:04.079 the phone. The thing is, it's not just the audio version, 14 00:01:04.079 --> 00:01:06.519 it's the video version two, which is why we do. 15 00:01:07.680 --> 00:01:10.519 We work with Zoom and we're gonna be hopefully we're 16 00:01:10.519 --> 00:01:14.079 gonna be transitioning into Riverside in the next month or 17 00:01:14.120 --> 00:01:18.959 so so we get clearer images. But today's program is 18 00:01:19.519 --> 00:01:25.519 kind of a special edition slash carryover from another Earth 19 00:01:25.519 --> 00:01:29.400 Ancients program. But you know what, I shouldn't feel too 20 00:01:29.480 --> 00:01:32.879 bad because Destiny is Earth Ancient's little sister, and that 21 00:01:33.000 --> 00:01:36.480 means that what we have to offer is, you know, 22 00:01:36.920 --> 00:01:40.359 in the same vein in many ways. And so my 23 00:01:40.400 --> 00:01:43.599 guests itday is going to be archaeologist Jen Dalo talking 24 00:01:43.640 --> 00:01:50.439 about the problems the archaeological community faces with new technology 25 00:01:50.519 --> 00:01:54.719 like stars with light art and what this is revealing 26 00:01:54.840 --> 00:01:59.760 and why I'm bringing jin on is simply this the 27 00:02:01.239 --> 00:02:04.040 archaeologists who are university trained, which is most of them. 28 00:02:04.079 --> 00:02:07.480 You don't get your PhD without going through the program 29 00:02:07.879 --> 00:02:10.960 of a university in the Western culture. But my whole 30 00:02:11.000 --> 00:02:15.840 problem is it looks like they're not teaching original thinking 31 00:02:15.919 --> 00:02:19.560 or critical thinking on a lot of topics. And we're 32 00:02:19.560 --> 00:02:24.479 going to talk about stars, the amazing technology that was 33 00:02:24.680 --> 00:02:27.960 used in the Giza plateau. We're going to talk about 34 00:02:29.039 --> 00:02:33.360 other issues that are coming up that are critical to 35 00:02:33.439 --> 00:02:37.000 the future not only of archaeology, but of history and 36 00:02:37.120 --> 00:02:41.759 understanding history. And here's an example. I have recently invested 37 00:02:41.840 --> 00:02:47.280 in artificial intelligence systems that are designed for specific things. 38 00:02:47.319 --> 00:02:52.960 I'm using chat GPT, I'm using Venice AI, and i 39 00:02:53.039 --> 00:02:55.719 might be using Claude and I'm not sure I'm testing 40 00:02:55.759 --> 00:03:00.840 it right now. But what I've been discovering is using 41 00:03:01.759 --> 00:03:04.719 unique prompts. And these are the questions that you pose 42 00:03:05.479 --> 00:03:12.400 to this machine learning brain. When you ask a detailed question, 43 00:03:12.960 --> 00:03:16.960 you get a really really good answer. I have discovered, 44 00:03:17.840 --> 00:03:21.319 and I'm continuing discover that with the right prompt and 45 00:03:21.360 --> 00:03:30.080 the right content and data, you can extract very very 46 00:03:30.199 --> 00:03:34.759 unique answers to questions of anomalies. And one of my 47 00:03:34.879 --> 00:03:38.599 great anomalies are any if you've been listening to you 48 00:03:38.639 --> 00:03:45.000 know what I'm talking about Colossi sculptures, thirty forty fifty 49 00:03:45.000 --> 00:03:48.400 foot tall Egyptian sculptures. How the hell do they do those? 50 00:03:49.719 --> 00:03:52.759 One of the big ones I'm writing about this is 51 00:03:52.800 --> 00:03:58.800 the sculptures at Abu Sabil. And what makes these unique 52 00:03:58.840 --> 00:04:04.479 is that when you ask AI, was this temple with 53 00:04:04.599 --> 00:04:11.000 these sculptures commissioned by Ramseys? Because Egyptologists believe that Ramsey 54 00:04:11.120 --> 00:04:16.560 did write a request for this, Well, it's not true. 55 00:04:16.720 --> 00:04:19.920 What they asked for were a second phase, which is 56 00:04:19.959 --> 00:04:25.240 these temples that are cut into the sandstone. The big 57 00:04:25.319 --> 00:04:28.680 question is how do they cut them, what techniques? And 58 00:04:28.720 --> 00:04:32.399 when you're specific with AI, basically they say it's an 59 00:04:32.439 --> 00:04:40.000 anomaly based on the known equipment that was used during 60 00:04:40.040 --> 00:04:45.120 that Phuronic period. I think it's Middle Kingdom. And this 61 00:04:45.160 --> 00:04:48.319 is what's fascinating to me is that I used to 62 00:04:48.319 --> 00:04:53.680 be frustrated with AI because it wasn't really using creative thinking. 63 00:04:53.720 --> 00:04:57.040 It was taking whatever data was being used in just 64 00:04:57.120 --> 00:04:59.680 dumping it on you, and it was like frustrating. Now 65 00:05:00.240 --> 00:05:02.040 and I'd say this is within the last twenty four 66 00:05:02.079 --> 00:05:05.759 months for me. Now it's becoming a really good tool. 67 00:05:06.639 --> 00:05:12.560 And when you offer prompts, and remember prompts are the questions, 68 00:05:12.600 --> 00:05:17.519 the details, the data that you would like to extract 69 00:05:17.560 --> 00:05:21.759 from AI. When you use specific prompts, you're getting back 70 00:05:22.399 --> 00:05:26.920 really creative answers. And I have to tell you, Jen 71 00:05:27.000 --> 00:05:29.480 and I went over this back and forth on a 72 00:05:29.519 --> 00:05:31.920 couple of topics and it was just mind blowing. And 73 00:05:31.959 --> 00:05:36.199 it's opened up a whole new avenue for me as 74 00:05:36.240 --> 00:05:40.839 a journalist and also a podcaster, to the point where 75 00:05:40.879 --> 00:05:44.319 we're going to actually have some panel discussions with different 76 00:05:44.839 --> 00:05:52.639 archaeologists who are now investigating and looking into artifacts, temples, pyramids, 77 00:05:52.680 --> 00:05:56.199 and buildings as well as sculptures from a number of 78 00:05:56.279 --> 00:06:03.920 well known civilizations and reviewing them and getting back fantastic answers. 79 00:06:03.920 --> 00:06:06.000 And this is the hint that I will provide you 80 00:06:06.079 --> 00:06:12.040 right now. It's validating the great possibilities of an earlier 81 00:06:12.360 --> 00:06:18.319 civilization and that's wild, so wild, it's making me go 82 00:06:18.439 --> 00:06:21.959 back in some chapters of it and thinking, Okay, here 83 00:06:22.040 --> 00:06:26.199 are the props, here are the answers, and this what 84 00:06:26.319 --> 00:06:29.560 else can you think about? You know, here's some more ideas. 85 00:06:29.600 --> 00:06:32.839 So today's program is going to be fun. So this 86 00:06:32.920 --> 00:06:37.920 is a special edition with our friend Jendo, and we 87 00:06:38.000 --> 00:06:41.000 cover a lot of ground today. So the theme is 88 00:06:41.680 --> 00:06:49.079 a new archaeological perspective on history. Hey, you know, when 89 00:06:49.079 --> 00:06:51.319 this weather is as bad as it's been and it's 90 00:06:51.360 --> 00:06:53.639 freezing cold, you don't want to jump into the kitchen 91 00:06:53.680 --> 00:06:56.399 and cook anything. If you're like me, you're busy. You 92 00:06:56.399 --> 00:06:57.800 want to work as long as you can and then 93 00:06:57.839 --> 00:07:00.240 take a break and have your food ready to eat, 94 00:07:00.480 --> 00:07:05.199 to consume, to nourish you. Factor offers a number of 95 00:07:05.600 --> 00:07:09.240 meal types that you can choose from during these cold 96 00:07:09.279 --> 00:07:13.959 weather days that are lean protein, colorful vegetables, and food 97 00:07:14.120 --> 00:07:17.480 ingredients that are healthy that don't retain lots of sugar, 98 00:07:17.600 --> 00:07:23.519 artificial sweeteners or refine seed oils. Factor provides one hundred 99 00:07:23.600 --> 00:07:27.360 different rotating meals that you can choose from throughout the winter. 100 00:07:27.879 --> 00:07:30.800 If you're on a special diet or you're on a 101 00:07:30.839 --> 00:07:36.279 program like I am THEGLP one support systems. Factor has 102 00:07:36.399 --> 00:07:39.920 the solution of that with unique meals that are designed 103 00:07:40.120 --> 00:07:42.879 just for you. And again you don't have to worry 104 00:07:42.879 --> 00:07:44.439 about it. You just pop them in the oven or 105 00:07:44.480 --> 00:07:46.519 the microwave for a couple of minutes and they're ready. 106 00:07:46.680 --> 00:07:50.199 They're easy to cook, and man do they satisfy. Head 107 00:07:50.199 --> 00:07:54.920 to Factor Meals dot Com Forward Slash Earth Agents fifty 108 00:07:55.279 --> 00:07:59.279 off and use the code Earth Ancients fifty off to 109 00:07:59.319 --> 00:08:03.680 get fifty per cent off your first box, which includes 110 00:08:03.720 --> 00:08:07.480 a free breakfast for a year eat like a pro 111 00:08:07.600 --> 00:08:10.839 this month with Factor. This is for new subscribers only 112 00:08:11.240 --> 00:08:15.399 and varies by plan. One free breakfast item per box 113 00:08:15.439 --> 00:08:19.720 for one year while your subscription is active. Again that 114 00:08:20.040 --> 00:08:26.079 is Factor Meals dot Com Forward Slash Earth Ancients fifty off. 115 00:08:26.800 --> 00:09:09.120 I love Factory and I think you will too. It's 116 00:09:09.120 --> 00:09:12.639 about time we've had Jen Dale on the program. I 117 00:09:12.679 --> 00:09:16.879 received a few emails when I mentioned her a couple 118 00:09:16.919 --> 00:09:19.559 of weeks ago, and people are like, what happened to Jendale? 119 00:09:19.679 --> 00:09:22.799 We miss her? And I do too. I do miss Jen. 120 00:09:23.000 --> 00:09:26.840 She's busy as hell, but we thought we would meet today. 121 00:09:27.320 --> 00:09:30.840 It talk over some issues that are prominent and the 122 00:09:30.879 --> 00:09:34.399 beauty of Jendale is of course, she's a field archaeologist 123 00:09:34.440 --> 00:09:39.559 and has done you know, field work excavating sites, and 124 00:09:39.639 --> 00:09:43.279 so she knows exactly what's the one I'm talking about. 125 00:09:43.679 --> 00:09:47.080 And she's a perfect fit for earthatist because she questions 126 00:09:47.080 --> 00:09:49.399 her own field like you know, which is great. So 127 00:09:50.440 --> 00:09:52.240 we have her on today and we're going to talk 128 00:09:52.240 --> 00:09:55.159 about a few topics that have been in the news 129 00:09:56.360 --> 00:10:00.440 and that I need questions answered for. So, hey, Jen see, 130 00:10:00.519 --> 00:10:02.320 I have been good to see you too. 131 00:10:02.440 --> 00:10:05.279 I'm I'm making it. 132 00:10:06.000 --> 00:10:09.679 Yeah, we should just mention real quickly. You work for PBS, 133 00:10:10.399 --> 00:10:12.639 and you guys are hanging in there, aren't you. 134 00:10:13.399 --> 00:10:13.759 I do. 135 00:10:13.840 --> 00:10:17.320 I work for public radio, so I am in the 136 00:10:17.440 --> 00:10:21.519 I work at Minnesota Public Radio in particular. So it's 137 00:10:21.559 --> 00:10:25.279 it's been quite harrowing these last two months. 138 00:10:25.600 --> 00:10:30.120 Wow. Yeah, good, But things are hopefully going to work out. 139 00:10:30.159 --> 00:10:35.399 That's the that's outside. Yeah. So so great to have 140 00:10:35.480 --> 00:10:39.559 you and see you and always interact with you. I 141 00:10:39.600 --> 00:10:41.919 want to talk about a few areas that have been 142 00:10:42.080 --> 00:10:46.440 troubling for me simply because the academic community isn't responding 143 00:10:46.840 --> 00:10:49.559 in my belief in a positive manner to some of 144 00:10:49.600 --> 00:10:54.080 these new discoveries, and some of these topics that we're 145 00:10:54.080 --> 00:10:56.240 talking about today have been on the program. We've had 146 00:10:56.320 --> 00:10:59.320 representatives from the various fields that we are going to 147 00:10:59.360 --> 00:11:04.799 speak about, and I want your opinion. I want you 148 00:11:04.879 --> 00:11:07.559 to talk about it. So the first one is the 149 00:11:07.679 --> 00:11:13.600 SARS research, this synthetic aperture radar that was done in 150 00:11:13.759 --> 00:11:18.559 Giza at the Kufu Pyramid and the pyramids in complete 151 00:11:19.679 --> 00:11:24.399 scan and what happened was and we've had all the experts, 152 00:11:24.440 --> 00:11:31.879 including BEYONDI who developed the three D modeling that came on. Here. 153 00:11:31.879 --> 00:11:34.799 We are looking at engineer's work and engineers are going, yes, 154 00:11:34.840 --> 00:11:38.200 this is here, there's something underneath the pyramids. But the 155 00:11:38.200 --> 00:11:44.519 Egyptological community is quiet. In fact, Zahi Jouass has said 156 00:11:44.519 --> 00:11:48.679 this is all hogwash without really looking at the data. 157 00:11:50.000 --> 00:11:52.559 So what's going on? What's going on? 158 00:11:53.240 --> 00:11:55.440 One might think that, you know, they'd want to do 159 00:11:55.480 --> 00:11:59.440 that a bit sooner just to figure out, you know, 160 00:11:59.759 --> 00:12:04.159 what indeed is going on underneath there. In my opinion, 161 00:12:04.320 --> 00:12:07.120 just knowing what I do know what little I do 162 00:12:07.279 --> 00:12:10.399 know about SAR technology, It's a technology that's been in 163 00:12:10.519 --> 00:12:13.480 use for you know, a significant amount of time. It's 164 00:12:13.519 --> 00:12:19.120 not new technology. It's just perhaps new technology to you know, 165 00:12:19.200 --> 00:12:22.679 the average person who wouldn't Why would you not necessarily 166 00:12:22.759 --> 00:12:26.480 know about SAR technology. It's been used by military and 167 00:12:26.559 --> 00:12:31.200 governments all over the world, whether they're using it for 168 00:12:31.440 --> 00:12:38.039 military work or checking out other countries and what they 169 00:12:38.120 --> 00:12:44.279 might have going on in more rural and desert situations. 170 00:12:44.320 --> 00:12:49.759 So I think that I don't think it's new. I 171 00:12:49.799 --> 00:12:53.440 think that it is just coming to the surface. Maybe 172 00:12:53.480 --> 00:12:57.279 what we're seeing is information that's, you know, coming up 173 00:12:57.360 --> 00:12:59.879 now that we have more access to it. 174 00:13:00.600 --> 00:13:04.000 Give us some examples of what you've discovered of its 175 00:13:04.039 --> 00:13:09.759 application outside of the military, because I had a guy 176 00:13:09.759 --> 00:13:12.159 come on when he was on the program, but he 177 00:13:12.639 --> 00:13:15.480 talked to me he was ex military, and the military 178 00:13:15.519 --> 00:13:19.159 has been using it for at least two decades. But 179 00:13:19.200 --> 00:13:22.039 what are some of the other applications that you've found. 180 00:13:22.840 --> 00:13:27.080 Well, I know that they've used it in parts of Africa, 181 00:13:27.720 --> 00:13:31.320 drought written parts of Africa to identify where wells are 182 00:13:31.639 --> 00:13:36.200 or the possibility of wells, So it's been used for 183 00:13:36.399 --> 00:13:41.879 maybe more humanitarian work. I know that just in previous 184 00:13:41.919 --> 00:13:46.879 iterations when I've looked at old SAR maps or readoubts 185 00:13:46.919 --> 00:13:52.559 of the information that they give, they've also investigated. I 186 00:13:52.600 --> 00:13:57.120 think that's how they've found certain sites in more desert 187 00:13:57.879 --> 00:14:01.600 or arid landscapes because as they're very obvious, you don't 188 00:14:01.639 --> 00:14:06.039 have to necessarily worry about cities or structures that might 189 00:14:06.080 --> 00:14:11.679 exist beyond that city that you know could somehow differentiate 190 00:14:11.799 --> 00:14:16.799 your readout or your results of the reading. But I 191 00:14:16.919 --> 00:14:22.639 think I think here's my key takeaway on SAR technology 192 00:14:22.720 --> 00:14:26.240 and just what we've seen maybe over the last fifteen years, 193 00:14:26.279 --> 00:14:32.000 ten to fifteen years, archaeologists employing different tactics to get 194 00:14:32.080 --> 00:14:38.600 at the archaeological mostly architecture, or getting into sites that 195 00:14:38.639 --> 00:14:42.200 they wouldn't ordinarily have access to, whether there's war there 196 00:14:42.559 --> 00:14:46.919 or it's just area that you know you would have 197 00:14:47.000 --> 00:14:50.399 a harder time getting access to, like I'm thinking of 198 00:14:50.440 --> 00:14:54.720 the Amazon, or even like a desert like the Gobi 199 00:14:54.879 --> 00:14:58.759 Desert or the Sahara. I think that these technologies give 200 00:14:58.840 --> 00:15:03.000 us access to play is that you know, historically we 201 00:15:03.080 --> 00:15:06.279 haven't had access to just because of their location. But 202 00:15:06.480 --> 00:15:10.639 also you know it perhaps is less expensive when you 203 00:15:10.679 --> 00:15:13.639 think of all of the different satellites floating up above 204 00:15:13.720 --> 00:15:18.480 us taking in this information and having access to that 205 00:15:18.600 --> 00:15:21.360 information just based on the fact that there are so much, 206 00:15:21.600 --> 00:15:26.000 so many more satellites capturing not necessarily just SAR, but 207 00:15:28.240 --> 00:15:32.480 capturing information about our planet that maybe we haven't known 208 00:15:32.559 --> 00:15:38.960 that they were capturing, or maybe that uh, they didn't 209 00:15:39.039 --> 00:15:41.600 know that we needed to know. So I think it's 210 00:15:41.679 --> 00:15:46.919 I think it's very layered and how we understand. 211 00:15:46.480 --> 00:15:48.399 I always asked for I always, of course, you know 212 00:15:48.519 --> 00:15:51.399 me a very dramatic I wait for you to go 213 00:15:51.840 --> 00:15:57.919 there are fools, just fools. That's not your thing, And 214 00:15:57.960 --> 00:16:00.120 of course I would never expect you to talk like that. 215 00:16:00.679 --> 00:16:03.679 But it gets to the point where it's like, when 216 00:16:03.720 --> 00:16:06.200 are you just gonna lay down and say, this is 217 00:16:06.279 --> 00:16:09.320 technology that I don't understand, but it looks like it 218 00:16:09.360 --> 00:16:12.440 could be valid or I have questions even if they 219 00:16:12.440 --> 00:16:15.720 were to say I have questions. As an example, the 220 00:16:15.759 --> 00:16:19.080 three D rendering from the raw data that is up 221 00:16:19.120 --> 00:16:24.679 to the interpretation of the the technician who takes the 222 00:16:24.759 --> 00:16:28.759 data and converts it to three D beyond y Filippo Beyondi, 223 00:16:29.120 --> 00:16:34.799 who's the architect of it, had some very interesting renderings 224 00:16:34.799 --> 00:16:37.360 of the CUFU pyramid when he first did it, including 225 00:16:37.440 --> 00:16:40.200 rooms and stuff like that that I would kind of 226 00:16:40.200 --> 00:16:44.120 maybe question, but they don't even question that. They don't 227 00:16:44.120 --> 00:16:46.919 even allow it into the the discussion. 228 00:16:48.000 --> 00:16:51.840 Yeah, I isn't that interesting. I've thought about that too. 229 00:16:51.879 --> 00:16:54.440 I actually listened to that episode of Earth Ancients, and 230 00:16:54.480 --> 00:16:58.720 I thought, wouldn't it be interesting if you know, all 231 00:16:58.799 --> 00:17:04.200 of these experts within that SAR community came forward and said, oh, well, 232 00:17:04.279 --> 00:17:07.319 I might you know, I might look at this a 233 00:17:07.359 --> 00:17:11.000 different way, or I might interpret this this way, And 234 00:17:12.400 --> 00:17:15.319 they don't have that. It's just we don't accept this. 235 00:17:15.599 --> 00:17:19.279 We don't accept this information, which I think is really problematic. 236 00:17:19.440 --> 00:17:23.359 I mean, either disprove it, but don't just pooh poo 237 00:17:23.440 --> 00:17:26.880 it without investigating it. It's something that needs to be 238 00:17:27.000 --> 00:17:33.200 investigated by a multitude of different like where's the where 239 00:17:33.200 --> 00:17:36.160 are the engineers? I would love to hear an engineer's 240 00:17:36.200 --> 00:17:41.279 summary of that data. I do think it's interesting that 241 00:17:42.519 --> 00:17:46.000 the folks that have come out have made you know, 242 00:17:46.960 --> 00:17:49.200 I don't think an assumption is the right word, but 243 00:17:49.240 --> 00:17:54.839 the assertion that this is some sort of engineering feat 244 00:17:55.440 --> 00:17:59.079 which it would be. Why aren't we having that conversation 245 00:17:59.279 --> 00:18:03.599 Because the fact that there are voids underneath this massive structure, 246 00:18:04.000 --> 00:18:06.880 that's just the start of the conversation. In my opinion. 247 00:18:07.359 --> 00:18:10.160 Yeah, yeah, you know, I don't know if you've looked 248 00:18:10.160 --> 00:18:13.079 at the renderies, but it is kind of wild. There's 249 00:18:13.319 --> 00:18:17.000 elongated tubes ago half a mile that have what look 250 00:18:17.119 --> 00:18:20.839 like stairways, yeah, circling there. I'm like, well, how'd you 251 00:18:20.839 --> 00:18:24.720 get that? And then there's there's big boids that look 252 00:18:24.920 --> 00:18:29.920 very square, like they're huge halls that are another half 253 00:18:29.960 --> 00:18:33.720 a mile below. So it's very very deep under the ground. 254 00:18:33.839 --> 00:18:36.880 And I mean it's like, is this a whole different world? 255 00:18:36.920 --> 00:18:40.480 And that's the speculation. This is a whole area that 256 00:18:40.559 --> 00:18:44.640 has never been identified, and I wonder if that's what 257 00:18:44.720 --> 00:18:48.880 it is. Also, it's so radically new they can't get 258 00:18:48.880 --> 00:18:52.000 their mind around it. It's like, this doesn't make sense. 259 00:18:52.039 --> 00:18:55.200 This is not the Pyramids, this is not the king 260 00:18:55.359 --> 00:18:58.319 Queen's Chamber or the Grand Hall or whatever you know 261 00:18:59.720 --> 00:19:01.559 it's And so I think it's overwhelming. 262 00:19:02.240 --> 00:19:06.880 Yeah, I do think it's interesting. And I so I 263 00:19:06.960 --> 00:19:09.319 was thinking about this the other day when you you know, 264 00:19:09.359 --> 00:19:12.799 you invited me to talk, and I thought, isn't it interesting? 265 00:19:13.079 --> 00:19:20.079 The majority of archaeologists want to know how things are used, 266 00:19:21.079 --> 00:19:24.279 and I approach it very differently. I want to know 267 00:19:24.319 --> 00:19:28.759 how things are made. That's that's the interesting thing to me, 268 00:19:28.920 --> 00:19:31.839 Like how did they make this? And I think that 269 00:19:31.839 --> 00:19:35.119 that's the approach. I mean, so now when I look 270 00:19:35.160 --> 00:19:38.279 at those renderings, I think, how did they do this? 271 00:19:38.680 --> 00:19:42.119 That's the first thing that occurs to me. Whereas I 272 00:19:42.160 --> 00:19:47.000 think that others approach it. How was this used? Well, 273 00:19:47.039 --> 00:19:49.200 it was used as a burial, it was used as 274 00:19:49.279 --> 00:19:52.839 you know, it was ceremonial or whatever it might be. 275 00:19:53.279 --> 00:19:57.319 So I think, and I do believe this is true. 276 00:19:57.400 --> 00:20:00.200 I think things are changing. I think the approach is 277 00:20:00.319 --> 00:20:06.079 changing where archaeologists, you know, I don't get to know 278 00:20:06.160 --> 00:20:09.680 how things were used, but I can discover how things 279 00:20:09.680 --> 00:20:12.839 were made. That's still an option, you know what I mean. 280 00:20:13.200 --> 00:20:16.599 So if I understand, if I understand how some thing's made, 281 00:20:17.160 --> 00:20:20.400 then perhaps I can apply some utility to it, Like 282 00:20:20.759 --> 00:20:22.759 then I can see, well, if I made it like this, 283 00:20:22.960 --> 00:20:25.480 it would have to be waterproof or whatever. I'm making 284 00:20:25.519 --> 00:20:29.960 stuff up. But I just think the approach is really 285 00:20:30.039 --> 00:20:33.039 necessary to change the paradigm within archaeology. 286 00:20:33.400 --> 00:20:36.000 I don't know if it's the training or the fact 287 00:20:36.000 --> 00:20:38.640 that you're using books that are hundreds of years old 288 00:20:39.440 --> 00:20:43.640 and you're being tested on that knowledge and the professors 289 00:20:43.640 --> 00:20:46.799 are saying, you cannot bend this. This is what's been 290 00:20:47.039 --> 00:20:50.880 you know, steadfast for decades. And by the way, you 291 00:20:50.920 --> 00:20:53.720 will not be granted a PhD unless you acknowledge this 292 00:20:53.880 --> 00:20:58.000 as the right focus of your career. I don't know 293 00:20:58.000 --> 00:21:01.359 if that's it, and it pushes out creativity or original 294 00:21:01.400 --> 00:21:06.200 thinking or whatever, but it's kind of challenging for. 295 00:21:06.240 --> 00:21:06.960 Me to see. 296 00:21:07.240 --> 00:21:07.400 Well. 297 00:21:07.440 --> 00:21:10.000 Yeah, I mean it's like bowling the bumper pads are 298 00:21:10.039 --> 00:21:14.640 always up right, only you just bounce off of things 299 00:21:14.720 --> 00:21:20.599 that aren't agreed with. I think that there are a 300 00:21:20.720 --> 00:21:27.440 number of new archaeologists coming out, especially now, where I 301 00:21:27.480 --> 00:21:31.279 think all I think all of what we have been 302 00:21:31.359 --> 00:21:34.799 taught up until now is being questioned, and rightfully so, 303 00:21:35.319 --> 00:21:38.480 because I think that there's what you're speaking of, the 304 00:21:38.599 --> 00:21:43.960 certain level of indoctrination that happens within the university system. 305 00:21:44.119 --> 00:21:47.200 And I loved my education, liberal arts all the way, 306 00:21:47.359 --> 00:21:53.160 the liberal arts. But let's just agree, is archaeology is science, 307 00:21:53.440 --> 00:21:56.880 or is archaeology and art, because there's a lot of 308 00:21:57.200 --> 00:22:00.640 it's very gray in there, and I think aspects of 309 00:22:00.680 --> 00:22:05.279 it are very very scientific. Yeah, but someone picking up 310 00:22:05.319 --> 00:22:10.319 a potshirt and you know, making determinations about people. People 311 00:22:10.440 --> 00:22:13.079 are not potshirts, they're people. 312 00:22:13.400 --> 00:22:16.599 It's a very good point. That's a very good point. 313 00:22:16.799 --> 00:22:20.920 We were having an Italian engineer on the program in 314 00:22:20.960 --> 00:22:26.599 the fall. His name is Alberto Danelli, who has recently 315 00:22:26.680 --> 00:22:31.200 used a technology to date the Great Pyramids and he 316 00:22:31.359 --> 00:22:35.119 has come up based on the erosion of between twenty 317 00:22:35.160 --> 00:22:36.640 and forty thousand years ago. 318 00:22:37.839 --> 00:22:38.160 Wow. 319 00:22:38.359 --> 00:22:43.240 He publishes his data and so when they keep pushing 320 00:22:43.279 --> 00:22:47.839 the dates back, we're looking at a complete, completely different 321 00:22:47.839 --> 00:22:51.160 world because we don't know the cultures that lived that. 322 00:22:51.240 --> 00:22:54.400 It wasn't the Dynastics. The Dynastics did not build the Pyramids. 323 00:22:55.559 --> 00:22:58.400 And you've been to Egypt and you know there's a 324 00:22:58.400 --> 00:23:00.920 lot of sophisticated artifacts that are you kind of scratch 325 00:23:00.960 --> 00:23:04.240 your head and go, how do they do that? Yeah? 326 00:23:04.279 --> 00:23:04.759 For sure. 327 00:23:05.000 --> 00:23:12.240 Yeah. So I think the feeling of openness needs to 328 00:23:12.319 --> 00:23:15.759 be more cultivated, but I guess we have to just 329 00:23:15.799 --> 00:23:19.359 deal with it right now. So in Egypt's a funny place, 330 00:23:19.359 --> 00:23:24.039 and SAR technology, I think it's being applied to other 331 00:23:24.319 --> 00:23:27.960 ancient sites and the same way that lightar is. Do 332 00:23:28.039 --> 00:23:29.599 you remember when light ar This is one of the 333 00:23:29.720 --> 00:23:31.839 questions I want to ask you when light ar came out. 334 00:23:32.359 --> 00:23:35.759 Was there resistance to that as well early on? 335 00:23:37.240 --> 00:23:39.759 You know, I think there was, and especially in where 336 00:23:39.799 --> 00:23:45.559 they were using it, So I think, you know, archaeologists 337 00:23:45.559 --> 00:23:48.839 can be territorial, and when you want to employ a 338 00:23:48.920 --> 00:23:52.759 new tool or you know, some new science to it, 339 00:23:52.839 --> 00:23:57.880 they feel they can feel like you know they are 340 00:23:58.920 --> 00:24:04.839 they're gatekeeping, gatekeeper, They're gatekeeper. You know, I get it 341 00:24:04.880 --> 00:24:07.200 because they spend a lot of time on work. But 342 00:24:07.640 --> 00:24:11.759 when new information presents itself, you must be forced to 343 00:24:11.839 --> 00:24:20.000 reevaluate your information. Your scientific muscle must be flexed in 344 00:24:20.079 --> 00:24:24.400 that moment and you have to reconsider your hypothesis. That's 345 00:24:24.440 --> 00:24:26.480 the whole backbone of science. 346 00:24:27.079 --> 00:24:33.200 Yeah. Yeah, I'm going to take a short commercial break 347 00:24:33.200 --> 00:24:37.319 to allow our sponsors to identify themselves, and we will 348 00:24:37.359 --> 00:24:44.000 return shortly with my guests today Jindale discussing views of archaeology. 349 00:24:45.400 --> 00:25:28.799 Will be right back. This podcast is brought to you 350 00:25:28.839 --> 00:25:33.039 by squarespace. Hey, have you ever had an idea that 351 00:25:33.079 --> 00:25:36.240 you thought you'd like to expand on, perhaps as a 352 00:25:36.279 --> 00:25:40.119 product or a service, or even a business idea that 353 00:25:40.160 --> 00:25:45.200 you wanted to expand into a website. Squarespace can offer 354 00:25:45.240 --> 00:25:49.039 you the tools to build it simply easy within a 355 00:25:49.079 --> 00:25:53.000 few hours without a problem. Squarespace has design features that 356 00:25:53.079 --> 00:25:57.480 are cutting edge and can offer you everything from email 357 00:25:57.559 --> 00:26:02.119 campaigns and SEO analytics that will make your job easy 358 00:26:02.200 --> 00:26:05.960 and help you get the word out. Squarespace is an 359 00:26:06.000 --> 00:26:09.200 all in one website platform designed to help you stand 360 00:26:09.200 --> 00:26:14.119 out and succeed online. Whether you're just starting out or 361 00:26:14.240 --> 00:26:18.519 scaling your business, Squarespace gives you everything you need to 362 00:26:18.599 --> 00:26:23.720 claim your domain, showcase your offerings with a professional website, 363 00:26:24.000 --> 00:26:28.559 and grow your brand all in one place. Head to 364 00:26:28.599 --> 00:26:33.079 squarespace dot com forward slash ancients for your free trial, 365 00:26:33.799 --> 00:26:37.279 and when you're ready to launch, use code ancients to 366 00:26:37.319 --> 00:26:41.000 save ten percent off your first purchase of a website 367 00:26:41.119 --> 00:26:52.720 or domain. That's squarespace dot com forward slash Ancients. My 368 00:26:52.759 --> 00:26:55.680 guest today is Jindale, and we are looking at archaeology 369 00:26:55.680 --> 00:26:58.599 from an educational point of view and what that does 370 00:26:58.640 --> 00:27:02.119 to a field archaeologist who's trying to write history and 371 00:27:02.319 --> 00:27:08.240 understand how our ancestors lived. Hey, let's move on to 372 00:27:08.319 --> 00:27:13.759 another interesting topic which is being questioned by archaeologists, and 373 00:27:13.799 --> 00:27:20.279 this is dating human settlements in North America over a 374 00:27:20.359 --> 00:27:22.039 year and a half, almost two years ago, I had 375 00:27:22.079 --> 00:27:26.680 a filled archaeologist doctor Paulette Steves on the program. She 376 00:27:26.839 --> 00:27:36.319 was a native archaeologist from Canada who began redating settlements 377 00:27:36.359 --> 00:27:38.920 in present day the United States, and the dates came 378 00:27:38.960 --> 00:27:42.720 back to over one hundred thousand years in the past, 379 00:27:43.119 --> 00:27:47.240 which threw the whole Clovis First out the window. And 380 00:27:47.319 --> 00:27:49.960 to my thinking, and I'm curious about your thoughts on 381 00:27:50.000 --> 00:27:54.319 this brings up the thought about how people were migrating 382 00:27:54.400 --> 00:27:57.920 back then. Of course everyone you know, the safe spot 383 00:27:58.039 --> 00:28:02.799 is everything's being from Asia or Siberia through the Bearing Straight. 384 00:28:03.839 --> 00:28:06.240 I begin to think that that's kind of out the window. 385 00:28:06.359 --> 00:28:10.160 But I'm curious about two things. Migration and we're going 386 00:28:10.200 --> 00:28:13.160 to bring it up again, but also settlements that are 387 00:28:13.200 --> 00:28:15.920 over one hundred thousand years. 388 00:28:17.119 --> 00:28:20.440 Okay, let's talk migration first, because I think that that's 389 00:28:20.440 --> 00:28:26.680 a really interesting idea. And you know that I don't 390 00:28:26.759 --> 00:28:31.240 think that people were just coming here via the Bearing 391 00:28:31.279 --> 00:28:33.799 Straight land Bridge. I think that there were other modes 392 00:28:33.880 --> 00:28:36.720 in which people got here. And even if we look back, 393 00:28:36.799 --> 00:28:40.160 like maybe more recent in time, like the Nordic expansion, 394 00:28:40.599 --> 00:28:43.559 and we think about where I live in New England, 395 00:28:45.240 --> 00:28:48.319 there is a very high likelihood that those Nordic folks 396 00:28:48.400 --> 00:28:51.680 were coming here. We know that because we've found them 397 00:28:51.759 --> 00:28:55.440 in Newfoundland. We see them in some sites in Canada 398 00:28:55.559 --> 00:28:58.200 that's very recent. I would say, that's within like the 399 00:28:58.279 --> 00:29:02.559 last you know, thousand, fIF teen hundred years. And then 400 00:29:02.559 --> 00:29:05.880 if we push further, you know, we have sites like 401 00:29:05.960 --> 00:29:09.400