Speaker 1: Welcome to Destiny.
Speaker 2: Now here's your host, Cliff Dunning.
Speaker 3: I got to say this about today's podcast. This is
Speaker 3: the first time that I've had a weather incident. We
Speaker 3: got snow on the East Coast. I'm here in northern California,
Speaker 3: in the San Francisco Bay Area. I think most people
Speaker 3: know that, and we have We've had a bad rain
Speaker 3: for the last We've had a consistent rain for the
Speaker 3: last week. But on the East Coast they're having blizzards
Speaker 3: and the snow has affected a lot of people's flights
Speaker 3: and activities. And this week's guest I had to cancel.
Speaker 3: They had to cancel Earth Aches. It's like get on
Speaker 3: the phone. The thing is, it's not just the audio version,
Speaker 3: it's the video version two, which is why we do.
Speaker 3: We work with Zoom and we're gonna be hopefully we're
Speaker 3: gonna be transitioning into Riverside in the next month or
Speaker 3: so so we get clearer images. But today's program is
Speaker 3: kind of a special edition slash carryover from another Earth
Speaker 3: Ancients program. But you know what, I shouldn't feel too
Speaker 3: bad because Destiny is Earth Ancient's little sister, and that
Speaker 3: means that what we have to offer is, you know,
Speaker 3: in the same vein in many ways. And so my
Speaker 3: guests itday is going to be archaeologist Jen Dalo talking
Speaker 3: about the problems the archaeological community faces with new technology
Speaker 3: like stars with light art and what this is revealing
Speaker 3: and why I'm bringing jin on is simply this the
Speaker 3: archaeologists who are university trained, which is most of them.
Speaker 3: You don't get your PhD without going through the program
Speaker 3: of a university in the Western culture. But my whole
Speaker 3: problem is it looks like they're not teaching original thinking
Speaker 3: or critical thinking on a lot of topics. And we're
Speaker 3: going to talk about stars, the amazing technology that was
Speaker 3: used in the Giza plateau. We're going to talk about
Speaker 3: other issues that are coming up that are critical to
Speaker 3: the future not only of archaeology, but of history and
Speaker 3: understanding history. And here's an example. I have recently invested
Speaker 3: in artificial intelligence systems that are designed for specific things.
Speaker 3: I'm using chat GPT, I'm using Venice AI, and i
Speaker 3: might be using Claude and I'm not sure I'm testing
Speaker 3: it right now. But what I've been discovering is using
Speaker 3: unique prompts. And these are the questions that you pose
Speaker 3: to this machine learning brain. When you ask a detailed question,
Speaker 3: you get a really really good answer. I have discovered,
Speaker 3: and I'm continuing discover that with the right prompt and
Speaker 3: the right content and data, you can extract very very
Speaker 3: unique answers to questions of anomalies. And one of my
Speaker 3: great anomalies are any if you've been listening to you
Speaker 3: know what I'm talking about Colossi sculptures, thirty forty fifty
Speaker 3: foot tall Egyptian sculptures. How the hell do they do those?
Speaker 3: One of the big ones I'm writing about this is
Speaker 3: the sculptures at Abu Sabil. And what makes these unique
Speaker 3: is that when you ask AI, was this temple with
Speaker 3: these sculptures commissioned by Ramseys? Because Egyptologists believe that Ramsey
Speaker 3: did write a request for this, Well, it's not true.
Speaker 3: What they asked for were a second phase, which is
Speaker 3: these temples that are cut into the sandstone. The big
Speaker 3: question is how do they cut them, what techniques? And
Speaker 3: when you're specific with AI, basically they say it's an
Speaker 3: anomaly based on the known equipment that was used during
Speaker 3: that Phuronic period. I think it's Middle Kingdom. And this
Speaker 3: is what's fascinating to me is that I used to
Speaker 3: be frustrated with AI because it wasn't really using creative thinking.
Speaker 3: It was taking whatever data was being used in just
Speaker 3: dumping it on you, and it was like frustrating. Now
Speaker 3: and I'd say this is within the last twenty four
Speaker 3: months for me. Now it's becoming a really good tool.
Speaker 3: And when you offer prompts, and remember prompts are the questions,
Speaker 3: the details, the data that you would like to extract
Speaker 3: from AI. When you use specific prompts, you're getting back
Speaker 3: really creative answers. And I have to tell you, Jen
Speaker 3: and I went over this back and forth on a
Speaker 3: couple of topics and it was just mind blowing. And
Speaker 3: it's opened up a whole new avenue for me as
Speaker 3: a journalist and also a podcaster, to the point where
Speaker 3: we're going to actually have some panel discussions with different
Speaker 3: archaeologists who are now investigating and looking into artifacts, temples, pyramids,
Speaker 3: and buildings as well as sculptures from a number of
Speaker 3: well known civilizations and reviewing them and getting back fantastic answers.
Speaker 3: And this is the hint that I will provide you
Speaker 3: right now. It's validating the great possibilities of an earlier
Speaker 3: civilization and that's wild, so wild, it's making me go
Speaker 3: back in some chapters of it and thinking, Okay, here
Speaker 3: are the props, here are the answers, and this what
Speaker 3: else can you think about? You know, here's some more ideas.
Speaker 3: So today's program is going to be fun. So this
Speaker 3: is a special edition with our friend Jendo, and we
Speaker 3: cover a lot of ground today. So the theme is
Speaker 3: a new archaeological perspective on history. Hey, you know, when
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Speaker 3: I love Factory and I think you will too. It's
Speaker 3: about time we've had Jen Dale on the program. I
Speaker 3: received a few emails when I mentioned her a couple
Speaker 3: of weeks ago, and people are like, what happened to Jendale?
Speaker 3: We miss her? And I do too. I do miss Jen.
Speaker 3: She's busy as hell, but we thought we would meet today.
Speaker 3: It talk over some issues that are prominent and the
Speaker 3: beauty of Jendale is of course, she's a field archaeologist
Speaker 3: and has done you know, field work excavating sites, and
Speaker 3: so she knows exactly what's the one I'm talking about.
Speaker 3: And she's a perfect fit for earthatist because she questions
Speaker 3: her own field like you know, which is great. So
Speaker 3: we have her on today and we're going to talk
Speaker 3: about a few topics that have been in the news
Speaker 3: and that I need questions answered for. So, hey, Jen see,
Speaker 3: I have been good to see you too.
Speaker 1: I'm I'm making it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we should just mention real quickly. You work for PBS,
Speaker 3: and you guys are hanging in there, aren't you.
Speaker 2: I do.
Speaker 1: I work for public radio, so I am in the
Speaker 1: I work at Minnesota Public Radio in particular. So it's
Speaker 1: it's been quite harrowing these last two months.
Speaker 3: Wow. Yeah, good, But things are hopefully going to work out.
Speaker 3: That's the that's outside. Yeah. So so great to have
Speaker 3: you and see you and always interact with you. I
Speaker 3: want to talk about a few areas that have been
Speaker 3: troubling for me simply because the academic community isn't responding
Speaker 3: in my belief in a positive manner to some of
Speaker 3: these new discoveries, and some of these topics that we're
Speaker 3: talking about today have been on the program. We've had
Speaker 3: representatives from the various fields that we are going to
Speaker 3: speak about, and I want your opinion. I want you
Speaker 3: to talk about it. So the first one is the
Speaker 3: SARS research, this synthetic aperture radar that was done in
Speaker 3: Giza at the Kufu Pyramid and the pyramids in complete
Speaker 3: scan and what happened was and we've had all the experts,
Speaker 3: including BEYONDI who developed the three D modeling that came on. Here.
Speaker 3: We are looking at engineer's work and engineers are going, yes,
Speaker 3: this is here, there's something underneath the pyramids. But the
Speaker 3: Egyptological community is quiet. In fact, Zahi Jouass has said
Speaker 3: this is all hogwash without really looking at the data.
Speaker 3: So what's going on? What's going on?
Speaker 1: One might think that, you know, they'd want to do
Speaker 1: that a bit sooner just to figure out, you know,
Speaker 1: what indeed is going on underneath there. In my opinion,
Speaker 1: just knowing what I do know what little I do
Speaker 1: know about SAR technology, It's a technology that's been in
Speaker 1: use for you know, a significant amount of time. It's
Speaker 1: not new technology. It's just perhaps new technology to you know,
Speaker 1: the average person who wouldn't Why would you not necessarily
Speaker 1: know about SAR technology. It's been used by military and
Speaker 1: governments all over the world, whether they're using it for
Speaker 1: military work or checking out other countries and what they
Speaker 1: might have going on in more rural and desert situations.
Speaker 1: So I think that I don't think it's new. I
Speaker 1: think that it is just coming to the surface. Maybe
Speaker 1: what we're seeing is information that's, you know, coming up
Speaker 1: now that we have more access to it.
Speaker 3: Give us some examples of what you've discovered of its
Speaker 3: application outside of the military, because I had a guy
Speaker 3: come on when he was on the program, but he
Speaker 3: talked to me he was ex military, and the military
Speaker 3: has been using it for at least two decades. But
Speaker 3: what are some of the other applications that you've found.
Speaker 1: Well, I know that they've used it in parts of Africa,
Speaker 1: drought written parts of Africa to identify where wells are
Speaker 1: or the possibility of wells, So it's been used for
Speaker 1: maybe more humanitarian work. I know that just in previous
Speaker 1: iterations when I've looked at old SAR maps or readoubts
Speaker 1: of the information that they give, they've also investigated. I
Speaker 1: think that's how they've found certain sites in more desert
Speaker 1: or arid landscapes because as they're very obvious, you don't
Speaker 1: have to necessarily worry about cities or structures that might
Speaker 1: exist beyond that city that you know could somehow differentiate
Speaker 1: your readout or your results of the reading. But I
Speaker 1: think I think here's my key takeaway on SAR technology
Speaker 1: and just what we've seen maybe over the last fifteen years,
Speaker 1: ten to fifteen years, archaeologists employing different tactics to get
Speaker 1: at the archaeological mostly architecture, or getting into sites that
Speaker 1: they wouldn't ordinarily have access to, whether there's war there
Speaker 1: or it's just area that you know you would have
Speaker 1: a harder time getting access to, like I'm thinking of
Speaker 1: the Amazon, or even like a desert like the Gobi
Speaker 1: Desert or the Sahara. I think that these technologies give
Speaker 1: us access to play is that you know, historically we
Speaker 1: haven't had access to just because of their location. But
Speaker 1: also you know it perhaps is less expensive when you
Speaker 1: think of all of the different satellites floating up above
Speaker 1: us taking in this information and having access to that
Speaker 1: information just based on the fact that there are so much,
Speaker 1: so many more satellites capturing not necessarily just SAR, but
Speaker 1: capturing information about our planet that maybe we haven't known
Speaker 1: that they were capturing, or maybe that uh, they didn't
Speaker 1: know that we needed to know. So I think it's
Speaker 1: I think it's very layered and how we understand.
Speaker 3: I always asked for I always, of course, you know
Speaker 3: me a very dramatic I wait for you to go
Speaker 3: there are fools, just fools. That's not your thing, And
Speaker 3: of course I would never expect you to talk like that.
Speaker 3: But it gets to the point where it's like, when
Speaker 3: are you just gonna lay down and say, this is
Speaker 3: technology that I don't understand, but it looks like it
Speaker 3: could be valid or I have questions even if they
Speaker 3: were to say I have questions. As an example, the
Speaker 3: three D rendering from the raw data that is up
Speaker 3: to the interpretation of the the technician who takes the
Speaker 3: data and converts it to three D beyond y Filippo Beyondi,
Speaker 3: who's the architect of it, had some very interesting renderings
Speaker 3: of the CUFU pyramid when he first did it, including
Speaker 3: rooms and stuff like that that I would kind of
Speaker 3: maybe question, but they don't even question that. They don't
Speaker 3: even allow it into the the discussion.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I isn't that interesting. I've thought about that too.
Speaker 1: I actually listened to that episode of Earth Ancients, and
Speaker 1: I thought, wouldn't it be interesting if you know, all
Speaker 1: of these experts within that SAR community came forward and said, oh, well,
Speaker 1: I might you know, I might look at this a
Speaker 1: different way, or I might interpret this this way, And
Speaker 1: they don't have that. It's just we don't accept this.
Speaker 1: We don't accept this information, which I think is really problematic.
Speaker 1: I mean, either disprove it, but don't just pooh poo
Speaker 1: it without investigating it. It's something that needs to be
Speaker 1: investigated by a multitude of different like where's the where
Speaker 1: are the engineers? I would love to hear an engineer's
Speaker 1: summary of that data. I do think it's interesting that
Speaker 1: the folks that have come out have made you know,
Speaker 1: I don't think an assumption is the right word, but
Speaker 1: the assertion that this is some sort of engineering feat
Speaker 1: which it would be. Why aren't we having that conversation
Speaker 1: Because the fact that there are voids underneath this massive structure,
Speaker 1: that's just the start of the conversation. In my opinion.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, you know, I don't know if you've looked
Speaker 3: at the renderies, but it is kind of wild. There's
Speaker 3: elongated tubes ago half a mile that have what look
Speaker 3: like stairways, yeah, circling there. I'm like, well, how'd you
Speaker 3: get that? And then there's there's big boids that look
Speaker 3: very square, like they're huge halls that are another half
Speaker 3: a mile below. So it's very very deep under the ground.
Speaker 3: And I mean it's like, is this a whole different world?
Speaker 3: And that's the speculation. This is a whole area that
Speaker 3: has never been identified, and I wonder if that's what
Speaker 3: it is. Also, it's so radically new they can't get
Speaker 3: their mind around it. It's like, this doesn't make sense.
Speaker 3: This is not the Pyramids, this is not the king
Speaker 3: Queen's Chamber or the Grand Hall or whatever you know
Speaker 3: it's And so I think it's overwhelming.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I do think it's interesting. And I so I
Speaker 1: was thinking about this the other day when you you know,
Speaker 1: you invited me to talk, and I thought, isn't it interesting?
Speaker 1: The majority of archaeologists want to know how things are used,
Speaker 1: and I approach it very differently. I want to know
Speaker 1: how things are made. That's that's the interesting thing to me,
Speaker 1: Like how did they make this? And I think that
Speaker 1: that's the approach. I mean, so now when I look
Speaker 1: at those renderings, I think, how did they do this?
Speaker 1: That's the first thing that occurs to me. Whereas I
Speaker 1: think that others approach it. How was this used? Well,
Speaker 1: it was used as a burial, it was used as
Speaker 1: you know, it was ceremonial or whatever it might be.
Speaker 1: So I think, and I do believe this is true.
Speaker 1: I think things are changing. I think the approach is
Speaker 1: changing where archaeologists, you know, I don't get to know
Speaker 1: how things were used, but I can discover how things
Speaker 1: were made. That's still an option, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: So if I understand, if I understand how some thing's made,
Speaker 1: then perhaps I can apply some utility to it, Like
Speaker 1: then I can see, well, if I made it like this,
Speaker 1: it would have to be waterproof or whatever. I'm making
Speaker 1: stuff up. But I just think the approach is really
Speaker 1: necessary to change the paradigm within archaeology.
Speaker 3: I don't know if it's the training or the fact
Speaker 3: that you're using books that are hundreds of years old
Speaker 3: and you're being tested on that knowledge and the professors
Speaker 3: are saying, you cannot bend this. This is what's been
Speaker 3: you know, steadfast for decades. And by the way, you
Speaker 3: will not be granted a PhD unless you acknowledge this
Speaker 3: as the right focus of your career. I don't know
Speaker 3: if that's it, and it pushes out creativity or original
Speaker 3: thinking or whatever, but it's kind of challenging for.
Speaker 2: Me to see.
Speaker 3: Well.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's like bowling the bumper pads are
Speaker 1: always up right, only you just bounce off of things
Speaker 1: that aren't agreed with. I think that there are a
Speaker 1: number of new archaeologists coming out, especially now, where I
Speaker 1: think all I think all of what we have been
Speaker 1: taught up until now is being questioned, and rightfully so,
Speaker 1: because I think that there's what you're speaking of, the
Speaker 1: certain level of indoctrination that happens within the university system.
Speaker 1: And I loved my education, liberal arts all the way,
Speaker 1: the liberal arts. But let's just agree, is archaeology is science,
Speaker 1: or is archaeology and art, because there's a lot of
Speaker 1: it's very gray in there, and I think aspects of
Speaker 1: it are very very scientific. Yeah, but someone picking up
Speaker 1: a potshirt and you know, making determinations about people. People
Speaker 1: are not potshirts, they're people.
Speaker 3: It's a very good point. That's a very good point.
Speaker 3: We were having an Italian engineer on the program in
Speaker 3: the fall. His name is Alberto Danelli, who has recently
Speaker 3: used a technology to date the Great Pyramids and he
Speaker 3: has come up based on the erosion of between twenty
Speaker 3: and forty thousand years ago.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 3: He publishes his data and so when they keep pushing
Speaker 3: the dates back, we're looking at a complete, completely different
Speaker 3: world because we don't know the cultures that lived that.
Speaker 3: It wasn't the Dynastics. The Dynastics did not build the Pyramids.
Speaker 3: And you've been to Egypt and you know there's a
Speaker 3: lot of sophisticated artifacts that are you kind of scratch
Speaker 3: your head and go, how do they do that? Yeah?
Speaker 2: For sure.
Speaker 3: Yeah. So I think the feeling of openness needs to
Speaker 3: be more cultivated, but I guess we have to just
Speaker 3: deal with it right now. So in Egypt's a funny place,
Speaker 3: and SAR technology, I think it's being applied to other
Speaker 3: ancient sites and the same way that lightar is. Do
Speaker 3: you remember when light ar This is one of the
Speaker 3: questions I want to ask you when light ar came out.
Speaker 3: Was there resistance to that as well early on?
Speaker 1: You know, I think there was, and especially in where
Speaker 1: they were using it, So I think, you know, archaeologists
Speaker 1: can be territorial, and when you want to employ a
Speaker 1: new tool or you know, some new science to it,
Speaker 1: they feel they can feel like you know they are
Speaker 1: they're gatekeeping, gatekeeper, They're gatekeeper. You know, I get it
Speaker 1: because they spend a lot of time on work. But
Speaker 1: when new information presents itself, you must be forced to
Speaker 1: reevaluate your information. Your scientific muscle must be flexed in
Speaker 1: that moment and you have to reconsider your hypothesis. That's
Speaker 1: the whole backbone of science.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, I'm going to take a short commercial break
Speaker 3: to allow our sponsors to identify themselves, and we will
Speaker 3: return shortly with my guests today Jindale discussing views of archaeology.
Speaker 3: Will be right back. This podcast is brought to you
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Speaker 3: save ten percent off your first purchase of a website
Speaker 3: or domain. That's squarespace dot com forward slash Ancients. My
Speaker 3: guest today is Jindale, and we are looking at archaeology
Speaker 3: from an educational point of view and what that does
Speaker 3: to a field archaeologist who's trying to write history and
Speaker 3: understand how our ancestors lived. Hey, let's move on to
Speaker 3: another interesting topic which is being questioned by archaeologists, and
Speaker 3: this is dating human settlements in North America over a
Speaker 3: year and a half, almost two years ago, I had
Speaker 3: a filled archaeologist doctor Paulette Steves on the program. She
Speaker 3: was a native archaeologist from Canada who began redating settlements
Speaker 3: in present day the United States, and the dates came
Speaker 3: back to over one hundred thousand years in the past,
Speaker 3: which threw the whole Clovis First out the window. And
Speaker 3: to my thinking, and I'm curious about your thoughts on
Speaker 3: this brings up the thought about how people were migrating
Speaker 3: back then. Of course everyone you know, the safe spot
Speaker 3: is everything's being from Asia or Siberia through the Bearing Straight.
Speaker 3: I begin to think that that's kind of out the window.
Speaker 3: But I'm curious about two things. Migration and we're going
Speaker 3: to bring it up again, but also settlements that are
Speaker 3: over one hundred thousand years.
Speaker 1: Okay, let's talk migration first, because I think that that's
Speaker 1: a really interesting idea. And you know that I don't
Speaker 1: think that people were just coming here via the Bearing
Speaker 1: Straight land Bridge. I think that there were other modes
Speaker 1: in which people got here. And even if we look back,
Speaker 1: like maybe more recent in time, like the Nordic expansion,
Speaker 1: and we think about where I live in New England,
Speaker 1: there is a very high likelihood that those Nordic folks
Speaker 1: were coming here. We know that because we've found them
Speaker 1: in Newfoundland. We see them in some sites in Canada
Speaker 1: that's very recent. I would say, that's within like the
Speaker 1: last you know, thousand, fIF teen hundred years. And then
Speaker 1: if we push further, you know, we have sites like
Speaker 1: Metowcroft Rock Shelter and that's in Pennsylvania.
Speaker 2: That site is.
Speaker 1: Dated to sixteen thousand years ago, which is you know,
Speaker 1: still it's pre younger dryas, so that's during glaciation. If
Speaker 1: we go further in, we've got sites like let's see,
Speaker 1: there's Cooper's Ferry in Idaho that's fifteen thousand years old.
Speaker 1: Swan Point, Alaska, that one's probably more associated with bearing
Speaker 1: straight migration. That's fourteen thousand years ago. There are just
Speaker 1: a whole host of sites. And then even the most
Speaker 1: recent site, which I think is pretty cool. This happened
Speaker 1: I think last year or the year before the White Sands,
Speaker 1: New Mexico. The twenty three thousand to twenty one thousand.
Speaker 3: Uh those yeah, carrying yep.
Speaker 1: With the giant sloth and you know, following them. So
Speaker 1: again that's pret young a dryas, so we know folks
Speaker 1: were getting here. The presupposition there is well, everything was
Speaker 1: glaciated prior to that, so how were they getting here
Speaker 1: with that glaciation in tow and I mean, I think
Speaker 1: I've always said this to you. I'm a proponent of
Speaker 1: traveling via refugia. So think of refugia as you know,
Speaker 1: during that glaciation period, they were traveling along the edges
Speaker 1: of those glaciers where you would find you know, larger
Speaker 1: sea mammals like you know, seals or walrus or anything
Speaker 1: that they could possibly eat that had really high caloric content.
Speaker 1: So if we go down even further, we have sites
Speaker 1: like this, the site's a little questionable, the Serruti masted
Speaker 1: on site, and I think that that site, that's.
Speaker 3: My god, that's the San Diego, that's the one that's
Speaker 3: one hundred and thirty.
Speaker 1: Hundred and thirty thousand. And the reason that they classify
Speaker 1: it a human site or human involvement with this masted
Speaker 1: on is because of how the bones were broken and
Speaker 1: then arranged post mortem.
Speaker 3: Is I think it's a kill site right because they're
Speaker 3: erect marrow out of the bone.
Speaker 2: Correct.
Speaker 1: And then there there are some other sites that kind
Speaker 1: of fall into that category as well. But I think
Speaker 1: we can all agree that there was some boat technology happening.
Speaker 1: You and I've said this all along, I have never
Speaker 1: deviated or I am a strong proponent of maritime technology.
Speaker 1: I think that these folks were so much more sophisticated
Speaker 1: than we give them credit for. Even if you think
Speaker 1: about like some of the boats that they've found recently,
Speaker 1: and they've discovered that the timbers were like sewn together,
Speaker 1: and yeah, and if you're also if you're eating these
Speaker 1: larger aquatic mammals, their skins are perfect for making smaller
Speaker 1: sized boat or lining your boat with their skins that
Speaker 1: are already water tight. So I just I think that
Speaker 1: there are so many more options than the ones that
Speaker 1: we've been given for how folks were getting into the
Speaker 1: North American continent. And if we go down further into
Speaker 1: South America, we do have genetic evidence of that I
Speaker 1: knew in South America and that is a culture of
Speaker 1: Japanese culture. So really yeah, soor and Jamon pottery that
Speaker 1: we also find in South America which has a Japanese tie.
Speaker 1: So I just I think that we two things. I
Speaker 1: think that we get caught up in this idea that
Speaker 1: things have to happen one way or you know the
Speaker 1: prescribed way that we've been told, but in reality, we're humans.
Speaker 1: If we want to get somewhere, we're going to find
Speaker 1: a way to do it, and we're going to go there.
Speaker 1: And I also think what about the level of curiosity
Speaker 1: these early people. They were curious about their world. They
Speaker 1: were able to move across continence and seas and oceans
Speaker 1: and develop technologies because they didn't have a nine to
Speaker 1: five job. Their job was to be curious and to
Speaker 1: get out into the world.
Speaker 3: So yeah, that's the resistance though, Jen with the Mayanists,
Speaker 3: and I mentioned before we started the eminent Mayanist Michael Cole,
Speaker 3: who passed away before I could get him on the
Speaker 3: on the podcast, he refutes any idea of migrations from
Speaker 3: anywhere to present day Mexico or Central America. Of course
Speaker 3: he excavated to call in Guatemala. But some of the
Speaker 3: questions that were posed to him is the similarities between
Speaker 3: camer pyramids and the Maya pyramids, because they are they're layered,
Speaker 3: and they look very similar. Not that they are exactly
Speaker 3: the same, but there may have been a blueprint on
Speaker 3: how to engineer pyramids, because those are engineering feats when
Speaker 3: you stack stone up to two hundred feet plus and
Speaker 3: he just flat out said no, no, no, no, no,
Speaker 3: And it's like, are you even looking at the possibilities
Speaker 3: and he just shut it down.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think that there are old narratives that exist that
Speaker 1: people perhaps I think that certain scientists are archaeology archaeologists
Speaker 1: hold tight too, because it's been a longstanding narrative that
Speaker 1: they have gone with and I think if you change that,
Speaker 1: then you, meaning the scientist, somehow changes that, then it
Speaker 1: somehow nullifies all the work that they've done prior to
Speaker 1: that time. And I think that that's probably a really
Speaker 1: scary thing when you've spent like the last twenty years
Speaker 1: of your life working on this one site and saying
Speaker 1: it's one way, and then suddenly you know you've changed
Speaker 1: the whole dynamic of how you've perceived it, and you
Speaker 1: know that's problematic. I want to say that that's an
Speaker 1: old way of thinking. Being married to you know, this
Speaker 1: one supposition of history is probably not it's it's self fulfilling.
Speaker 1: I guess you know, you're you're determining what it is
Speaker 1: versus taking on the information and actually making sense of it.
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's it's problematic. That's the last thing I
Speaker 1: can say about it.
Speaker 3: I'm speaking for myself. But if I had written a
Speaker 3: book that said, all the evidence states that there was
Speaker 3: no migrations, and then all of a sudden, we find
Speaker 3: anchors offshore, we found evidence of red boats, we have
Speaker 3: in my case, evidence of racial diversity, people from different
Speaker 3: parts of the world in Mexico present day Mexico, I
Speaker 3: would be open and say, look, we found new evidence,
Speaker 3: and this is what we're now realizing, is that there
Speaker 3: was a migration. Not holding to outdated thoughts because that
Speaker 3: kind of that kind of influences the younger people that
Speaker 3: are coming up, who'd become our new archaeologists and anthropologists
Speaker 3: who are defining our human history.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yes, I think a couple of things are going
Speaker 1: on there. I believe that the archaeologists coming out of
Speaker 1: South America right now are on They're on the pulse
Speaker 1: of things because they are rewriting their history.
Speaker 2: I think of.
Speaker 1: What's going on in Brazil and the sites that are
Speaker 1: popping up in Brazil and the technology that they're employing
Speaker 1: in Central America to see sites. I'm thinking right now
Speaker 1: of the Santa Lina rockshelter in Oh My gosh. It's
Speaker 1: in Brazil, I believe, and they date it to twenty
Speaker 1: five to twenty seven thousand years ago. But what's so
Speaker 1: amazing about it is that it's rarely ever talked about,
Speaker 1: and we know that there was something very complex going
Speaker 1: on on in the the jungles of Brazil because now
Speaker 1: we're seeing all of these geometric earth earthen works that
Speaker 1: are coming out. So I think about the Amazon Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: that Amazonian earthen works, but also some of the work
Speaker 1: that amateur archaeologists are doing in I can't remember his name.
Speaker 1: He has an instagram. It's Pillars of Time or something
Speaker 1: like that. He's an amateur archaeologist going into the Chilean
Speaker 1: and Bolivian and Peruvian deserts and finding megalithic sites that
Speaker 1: no one has ever seen before, and you know they're
Speaker 1: not documented, and he's telling the archaeologists in those countries,
Speaker 1: you've got to see the site. He's finding sites that
Speaker 1: haven't even been pot hunted yet and plundered. I just
Speaker 1: something he had something on last week where he found
Speaker 1: a megalithic site in He found a site that was
Speaker 1: very similar to Korral. So I think that Central and
Speaker 1: South America. They're gonna blow everyone out of the water
Speaker 1: in the next ten years. They are going to rewrite
Speaker 1: their history and we are going to learn things we
Speaker 1: did not know before because they're already starting to do it.
Speaker 1: It's just a matter of if you're paying attention or not.
Speaker 3: So they're using the technology that's in vogue right now,
Speaker 3: and I'm thinking light r, ground penetrade radar, perhaps some
Speaker 3: dating technology that's been revised or is renewed. And they
Speaker 3: are accredited archaeologists who are making these claims.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there are, There are quite a few. And you
Speaker 1: know what they're using a lot of as well, drones,
Speaker 1: drones to get up above, especially in these high mountain
Speaker 1: areas and arid landscapes. They're using drones in ways that
Speaker 1: are just remarkable. I mean it's really quite amazing. So
Speaker 1: you know a lot of creative folks that are trying
Speaker 1: to get these sites documented and also just bring them
Speaker 1: to scientists' attention, like preserve this, check it out, do
Speaker 1: some research. So it's happening. I think it's very expensive.
Speaker 1: I think it's really really expensive.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, light ours even though it's cheaper than it was,
Speaker 3: it's still not cheap. Yeah, you gotta process. We're going
Speaker 3: to take a short commercial break to allow our sponsors
Speaker 3: to identify themselves, and we will return shortly with my
Speaker 3: guests today Jen Dale discussing the state of archaeology. We'll
Speaker 3: be right back. We're speaking with archaeologist Jenda, who has
Speaker 3: been a regular on Earth Agents for years and I
Speaker 3: love her opinion, and we're getting a sense of just
Speaker 3: what is happening to archaeologists given the advent of artificial
Speaker 3: intelligence and other technologies in evaluating ancient civilizations. Talk just
Speaker 3: for a minute about ego, and this is a tough one,
Speaker 3: but if you've been the teacher or university professor and
Speaker 3: you say this is the way it is in some
Speaker 3: young upstarts, like sir, this is what we found. This
Speaker 3: is new data, and it goes in the face of
Speaker 3: old thought and theory, not just I mean, do you
Speaker 3: think there's a problem with tenure, someone's tenure being questioned
Speaker 3: or I mean, because this is what I hear, you know,
Speaker 3: And I've been doing this for over a decade, and
Speaker 3: I have a lot of scientists on the show, as
Speaker 3: you know, but there's a lot of people that are
Speaker 3: like non scientists, you know, and it almost seems like
Speaker 3: they bundle us all up into like you're part of
Speaker 3: ancient aliens, you know, which I I you know me,
Speaker 3: I'm like, these ancient alien guys drive me nuts because
Speaker 3: if they can't answer the question about who made it,
Speaker 3: it's the aliens, you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I think that these folks. This is
Speaker 1: going to sound very morbid, but I think the old
Speaker 1: school is dying. The old watch Ivory Tower folks are
Speaker 1: They're dying out.
Speaker 2: And I don't think.
Speaker 1: They're not able to operate the same way because there
Speaker 1: are kids that are so smart and coming out and
Speaker 1: know how to use technology, and they're able to use
Speaker 1: it in ways that you know, I certainly wasn't when
Speaker 1: I was doing field archaeology. So yeah, I mean, I
Speaker 1: think ego plays a part in that you're married to
Speaker 1: your work, you're and it somehow it becomes your identity.
Speaker 1: I think that's a pitfall. I don't think that's particularly healthy,
Speaker 1: and it's certainly not helpful to discovering you know, what's next.
Speaker 1: I had professors like that, but I also I had
Speaker 1: a number of you know, professors that didn't believe that either,
Speaker 1: and maybe they didn't teach it, but it was almost
Speaker 1: always up in conversation that they didn't necessarily abide by
Speaker 1: the status quo.
Speaker 3: Good, I know, we're tight on time. But the last
Speaker 3: thing I want to talk about, and this is an
Speaker 3: important one, which is oral traditions, and they seem to
Speaker 3: be becoming more important. But I'm curious your idea, your
Speaker 3: thought on how we reference oral traditions in the same
Speaker 3: manner that doctor Paulette Steves has been doing with North
Speaker 3: American site redating, and she's just gone back to known
Speaker 3: indigenous sites and redated them with various technologies and got
Speaker 3: these extremely old, very early one hundred thousand plus year dates.
Speaker 3: But how do we how do we how do we
Speaker 3: reference oral traditions in a way that we can use
Speaker 3: that information.
Speaker 2: It's a great question.
Speaker 1: So what comes to top of mind for me is
Speaker 1: what the Australian Aboriginal communities are doing with their oral
Speaker 1: histories and how they're using it as a dating technique,
Speaker 1: whether it's for rock art or some of the the
Speaker 1: art that they have on the land that they've created
Speaker 1: within their storytelling, which is really fascinating to me. And
Speaker 1: you know, just genetically their stories line up with their
Speaker 1: genes and they've just discovered that. Yeah, they're one of
Speaker 1: the They are the oldest living genetic population of on
Speaker 1: this planet. I can't remember exactly what they were, but
Speaker 1: I know they were well over one hundred thousand years
Speaker 1: which is Isn't that remarkable because when you look at
Speaker 1: the genetics of these folks, you find little traces of
Speaker 1: it around the world. We know that they were. Their
Speaker 1: long walk was not a lie. Their long walk was true.
Speaker 1: So you know, I am so firmly embedded in believe people,
Speaker 1: especially Indigenous people, when they tell you their life, wigs,
Speaker 1: stories and the stories of their people and how they
Speaker 1: existed to this point, because there is so much truth,
Speaker 1: reality and just pure useful knowledge and what it is
Speaker 1: that they're telling us. I do think that there's a
Speaker 1: huge tie in too, North America when you look into
Speaker 1: some of the different bands and groups that you have here.
Speaker 1: I know, the Ojibwe storyline of Younger Dryas exists. They
Speaker 1: talk about a great cataclysm, They talk about the ice
Speaker 1: sheets and what they did during that period of time
Speaker 1: of darkness.
Speaker 2: There is so much.
Speaker 1: Wisdom baked into these these stories that they share, and
Speaker 1: they weren't writing their stories. They were articulating their stories
Speaker 1: to pass on to the next generation. So these these
Speaker 1: weren't always you know, many are rooted in allegory and
Speaker 1: metaphor and analogy, and us white folks don't talk like that,
Speaker 1: so we discredit it or make it less valuable because
Speaker 1: it doesn't, you know, resemble how we operate. But I
Speaker 1: think that's that's the pitfall. Just because it's not ours
Speaker 1: doesn't mean it isn't true.
Speaker 3: I have to be blunt about this. In my research,
Speaker 3: especially in the decoding of the Maya Maya hieroglyphs, there's
Speaker 3: a bit of racism that is very prevalent with the
Speaker 3: archaeological archaeological community unwilling to talk with the scientists which
Speaker 3: are called daykeepers or these uh shaman and ask them
Speaker 3: about their history. And I was I couldn't believe it
Speaker 3: that there has not really been any kind of collaboration
Speaker 3: with Maya. It's just insane.
Speaker 1: It's a missed opportunity. I mean, that's that's the only
Speaker 1: thing I can say about that. And I again back
Speaker 1: to that, you know that that premise of how are
Speaker 1: things made versus how were they used? You know, I
Speaker 1: would want to understand if I was taking in you know,
Speaker 1: this oral history or ethnographic work that these indigenous folks
Speaker 1: were willing to tell us. I mean, it's it's a gift,
Speaker 1: it's it's a LifeWay that we don't necessarily understand. But
Speaker 1: you know, it goes back to what you were saying.
Speaker 1: A lot of these stories talk about immigration. They talk
Speaker 1: about how folks got here, how they traveled here, why
Speaker 1: they traveled here, who they met and they got here,
Speaker 1: what they experienced, what animals they saw, what the land
Speaker 1: looked like. All of those little nuggets are built into
Speaker 1: those ethnographic stories, and they're so incredibly valuable. You know,
Speaker 1: I heard a couple of weeks ago you were talking
Speaker 1: to a gentleman and you were talking about where the
Speaker 1: existing codices exist in the world, the Mayan codices. Imagine
Speaker 1: that if we had those oral codices, you know, in
Speaker 1: someone's brain, that we could just download and understand them
Speaker 1: in a different way. Imagine how how much easier it
Speaker 1: would be to contextualize the Maya if you had some
Speaker 1: of their oral traditions and stories. And we do because
Speaker 1: the Maya still exists to this.
Speaker 3: Day, six million of them.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, So let's talk to them.
Speaker 3: That's what I'm so confused about is if you want data,
Speaker 3: why not go to the source. And they've never ever
Speaker 3: gone to the source. Yeah, that's a huge mission opportunity.
Speaker 1: I bet, I bet you dollars to donuts that they
Speaker 1: have some ethnographic researcher, probably someone who's native to that area,
Speaker 1: who has taken them in orally, but hasn't necessarily you know,
Speaker 1: written them down or put them down so that others
Speaker 1: could see them. But really what that would require would
Speaker 1: be for you to embed yourself in that community, gain
Speaker 1: the trust to learn those stories.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean that's a good point. There must be
Speaker 3: indigenous scholars who are not really speaking up, you know, yeah,
Speaker 3: or their material is not considered valid.
Speaker 1: Well, and they might want to protect that information now
Speaker 1: because you know, look what's happened to it before It
Speaker 1: certainly wasn't cherished.
Speaker 3: No, Yeah, Jen Dale, always a pleasure. Uh, it's fun
Speaker 3: having you on the program. We're gonna have to have
Speaker 3: you come back on a more regular basis. Of course,
Speaker 3: you're so busy.
Speaker 2: I'll make time for you, Cliff, Oh good good.
Speaker 3: As we close, what's what's interesting to you right now
Speaker 3: in terms of archaeological digs? You you got your you know,
Speaker 3: you're viewing all of the planet and seeing what's going on.
Speaker 3: Is there any specific digs that you're following.
Speaker 1: You know? Right now, I'm most interested in things with
Speaker 1: all of the droughts happening over the surface of our
Speaker 1: planet right now, I think that there are a lot
Speaker 1: of things that are going to come to light as
Speaker 1: the ocean changes and we get more access to areas
Speaker 1: that perhaps we haven't. I'm always interested in things happening
Speaker 1: like in Turkey and stuff like that, because I think
Speaker 1: that those are just you know the.
Speaker 3: You mean like bey Tepee and karra Han Well, I mean.
Speaker 1: Yes, I think that those are interesting places, and we
Speaker 1: have a lot of scientists working in those areas right now,
Speaker 1: so we're learning so much about just that. Is it
Speaker 1: the Kavastepe culture? I think I can't remember what it's
Speaker 1: called exactly, but I think that I think those areas
Speaker 1: are going to give us like the most interesting nuggets
Speaker 1: right now and maybe give us more explanation on what's
Speaker 1: next in archaeology. And then I'm super interested in the
Speaker 1: Amazon because I think the Amazon is exploding right now.
Speaker 3: Isn't that funny? Yeah, the technology is really revealing it
Speaker 3: in Graham's most recent book. He has a whole section
Speaker 3: on the Amazon So so all right, hey, thanks for
Speaker 3: joining me, and let's do it.
Speaker 2: Again, all right, see a cliff. It's always fun.
Speaker 3: To have Jin on the program if you ever get
Speaker 3: a chance to join us on one of the Earth
Speaker 3: Ancients tours. In Jin's with us. She's also fun to
Speaker 3: hang with because she has an in depth experience and
Speaker 3: knowledge of a lot of the artifacts that we see
Speaker 3: in Egypt or wherever we're going. So think about that
Speaker 3: for the future. By the way, we do have I
Speaker 3: want to say, maybe a handful of spots left for
Speaker 3: our upcoming Grand Egyptian Tour number seven. It's going to
Speaker 3: be April twenty eight through May tenth. We meet in Cairo.
Speaker 3: That's really the best time to go because the weather
Speaker 3: is transitioning from comfortably warm to hot, and I've been
Speaker 3: in Egypt when it's like in the hundreds in boy,
Speaker 3: you don't want to really deal with that. So if
Speaker 3: you want more information on that tours, it's available at
Speaker 3: earth Acients dot com forward slash Tours and they have
Speaker 3: the full itinerary. And this is the tour that I
Speaker 3: always probably say it's the diplomat's tour because you get
Speaker 3: treated like a head of state or city or tower.
Speaker 3: You're from our country, and so it's a diplomatic tour
Speaker 3: because you're winding down and treated to just the best
Speaker 3: time over thirteen days that you can experience in Egypt.
Speaker 3: So if you're interested, take a look at that itinerary
Speaker 3: at earth Ancients dot com, forward slash Tours, or if
Speaker 3: you want more information, send me an email. Send it
Speaker 3: to Earth Ancients the number for the letter you at
Speaker 3: gmail dot com. Ask me a question. I promised to
Speaker 3: get right back to you. And the other thing that
Speaker 3: we don't really talk too much about is the fact
Speaker 3: that our tours are fifty percent less than most of
Speaker 3: these tours, and that means you're paying ten grand to
Speaker 3: get there and to get food and drinking your accommodations.
Speaker 3: Our tours are half that much for the same deal.
Speaker 3: Earth Agents dot com, Forward SLA Tours. Check it out,
Speaker 3: come out and join us now. The other thing I
Speaker 3: want to mention, and I kind of alluded to it
Speaker 3: at the very beginning of this podcast, is that artificial
Speaker 3: intelligence machine learning is changing the entire archaeological point of
Speaker 3: view and anomalists like myself people that are looking for
Speaker 3: these unusual potentials, and I mean, I have to be
Speaker 3: completely honest. I just questioned our history. You know, it's
Speaker 3: either this is the way it is, or you don't
Speaker 3: have a history. And I think it needs to be change.
Speaker 3: And I think artificial intelligence will change history dramatically. And
Speaker 3: I gave one example at the beginning of the program
Speaker 3: of the Abu Sabil sculptures, but there's other examples that
Speaker 3: I'm investigating right now. One of the features of ancient
Speaker 3: pre dynastic history, and this is my belief and some
Speaker 3: other people's, is that many of the sculptures that were
Speaker 3: left to us were from an earlier people. Chris dun
Speaker 3: highlights this a little bit with the Ramsey question, and
Speaker 3: his analysis just observing these statues is that many of
Speaker 3: them were machined, meaning that there was a die or
Speaker 3: a program put into some cutting tool and they cut, shaped,
Speaker 3: and sanded these handful of sculptures in a way that
Speaker 3: is beyond the skill of an artisan or a sculptor.
Speaker 3: And I've found this to be an interesting possibility. And
Speaker 3: I'm just beginning to prompt AI with these questions, and
Speaker 3: what it is is you compose a really detailed question
Speaker 3: of what to look for. What the AI is digging into,
Speaker 3: what is the data, And they are collecting decades of data,
Speaker 3: analyzing it based on my question and spinning out answers,
Speaker 3: and some of the answers are just phenomenal. And there's
Speaker 3: very very few people that are writing prompts to archaeological study.
Speaker 3: And this is so new that I think it's going
Speaker 3: to revolutionize archaeology. It's also going to help them open
Speaker 3: their brains and open their possibility possibilities for other alternative
Speaker 3: looks because they're rigid, just too rigid, and I think
Speaker 3: you cannot And this is not their fault, it's their education.
Speaker 3: An archaeologist should excuse me. An anthropologist who becomes an archaeologist,
Speaker 3: you know, must pass tests based on antiquated data. You know,
Speaker 3: not all of them, but that's the foundation. And if
Speaker 3: you're not willing to stretch beyond your you're learning, then
Speaker 3: you're in trouble. And remember we're not talking about ancient aliens.
Speaker 3: We're not talking about Atlantis. I mean, Atlantis is a
Speaker 3: kill point for a lot of archaeologists because they hear
Speaker 3: it and they just freeze up. What I'm talking about
Speaker 3: is using technology to analyze these artifacts, you know, and
Speaker 3: the vast majority of them do follow the pattern of
Speaker 3: given understandings of history. But there's a lot that does
Speaker 3: not fall. There's a lot of analogies, there's a lot
Speaker 3: of questions that are posed by archaeologists that are not
Speaker 3: being taken serious. Now, remember Karacuney, doctor Karacuney at UCLA,
Speaker 3: she wrote a whole book on reused artifacts. And my
Speaker 3: theory and that of doctor Shock and his wife Catherine
Speaker 3: and many others we've had on the show is that
Speaker 3: there's great doubts about the given history of the Egyptians,
Speaker 3: the Pharaohs, and it's looking more and more like these
Speaker 3: different pharaohs that we're familiar with, that Old Middle and
Speaker 3: New kingdoms that are so beautifully highlighted in history books
Speaker 3: may have encountered the great Pyramids and the temples and
Speaker 3: the buildings that we take for granted today. They were met,
Speaker 3: they found them, they were there when they came into power,
Speaker 3: and they modified them. There's nothing that's we can find
Speaker 3: that's written. We have to look at the data, we
Speaker 3: have to analyze it through tools like artificial intelligence, and
Speaker 3: that's what I'm really excited about and I'm devouring the
Speaker 3: latest data, the latest writing, the latest books on prompts,
Speaker 3: because again, the questions are the keys, and that's it.
Speaker 3: Because of the complexity of artificial intelligence, your prompts, your
Speaker 3: questions to the brain of artificial intelligence, has to be
Speaker 3: equally diverse and strong. If you look at some of
Speaker 3: the prompts on chat, GPT or Venice or any of
Speaker 3: the artificial intelligence that is standard or what's available, some
Speaker 3: of the the prompts are as big as you know,
Speaker 3: amongst a massive paragraph, and they're there detailed looks at questions,
Speaker 3: and that's the key, and you you can see amazing results,
Speaker 3: amazing answers to some fabulous questions. Where this goes, I
Speaker 3: don't know, but I'm excited about it right now because
Speaker 3: some of the results I'm getting are astounding and they're
Speaker 3: they're they're bending my mind, and I think it's going
Speaker 3: to bend archaeology. I think it's going to be history
Speaker 3: because we cannot take history for granted. And this is
Speaker 3: what people are doing right now. We're taking it for granted. Yes,
Speaker 3: this is what they wrote, so this is it. Yes,
Speaker 3: my history book says this about Columbus, says this about
Speaker 3: Cortez says this about whoever, and we don't question that. Well,
Speaker 3: history is malleable. It's not written in stone, very very
Speaker 3: very little of it is written in stone. So anyhow,
Speaker 3: look forward to more programs on artificial intelligence. In fact,
Speaker 3: I'm excited to think about a panel discussion of archaeologists
Speaker 3: and engineers and experts who are applying AI to their
Speaker 3: fields and to see what it comes up with. So
Speaker 3: before to that, all right, I want to think my
Speaker 3: guest today, miss Chindo, can we do us? From Vermont,
Speaker 3: United States? Has always the team of gelteor Mark Foster
Speaker 3: and the wonderful Faia Bavar in Pakistan. Man, you guys
Speaker 3: rock all right, take care of you well and we
Speaker 3: will talk to you next time.
Speaker 2: They the