Speaker 1: Hi.
Speaker 2: I'm doctor Maria Meyer, anthropologist, primatologist, wildlife correspondent and part
Speaker 2: of the team on Expedition Bigfoot. I've spent my entire
Speaker 2: life exploring the planet's wildest, most remote places in search
Speaker 2: of the extraordinary, and now I'm inviting you to join me.
Speaker 2: Introducing the Explorer Society, a global community of curious minds,
Speaker 2: truth seekers, and adventures where we dive into the unknown,
Speaker 2: from elusive creatures like Bigfoot, to the frontiers of science,
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Speaker 2: especial guest interviews including the Expedition Bigfoot team, Dave Schrader,
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Speaker 2: On demand streaming content, invites to exclusive events and conferences
Speaker 2: around the world, Explore Society swag, and even the chance
Speaker 2: to join us on a real life expedition. Come explore
Speaker 2: with me. Let's discover what's out there. Join Explorer Society
Speaker 2: at Mariameyer dot com.
Speaker 3: Today, I want to tell you about a journey that
Speaker 3: I've been on for most of my life. Ever since
Speaker 3: I was a kid, I've heard tales of Bigfoot and
Speaker 3: wild men, while spending time with my friends and family.
Speaker 3: As I grew older and read more about the paranormal,
Speaker 3: my interest in cryptids and other things strange only deepened.
Speaker 3: That's why I'm so excited to share with you what
Speaker 3: I've personally become involved with The Untold Radio Network. The
Speaker 3: Untold Radio Network is a live streaming podcast network that
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Speaker 3: where I talk about all things strange. This is more
Speaker 3: than just a podcast network. It's a community that allows
Speaker 3: me to meet so many amazing people who share their
Speaker 3: stories and experiences with the strange. If you're interested in
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Speaker 3: Visit www dot untold radionetwork dot com today.
Speaker 5: Now want one to your reporting. I got a screen
Speaker 5: going on here something just kid with my dog something
Speaker 5: to kill your dog? My dog? What applying to he?
Speaker 5: Or over the tree? I don't know how it did it?
Speaker 6: Okay, damn it.
Speaker 5: I'm really confused. All I saw was my dog coming
Speaker 5: over the fence. The name of a dead once you
Speaker 5: hit the ground. I didn't be seen cars. All I
Speaker 5: saw was my dog coming over the fence.
Speaker 6: What are you playing?
Speaker 5: We got some wonder or.
Speaker 6: Something crawling around out here.
Speaker 7: I'm out here looking new to window now and I
Speaker 7: don't need anything. I don't want to go.
Speaker 5: Outdiight, Hello, hit the boddy out here? What quin an
Speaker 5: ounce there?
Speaker 6: I thought of a bit about second nine.
Speaker 5: I don't know.
Speaker 6: Easy annount there? Yeah, I'm working right.
Speaker 3: Heady, all right, folks want to welcome our guest to
Speaker 3: the show. It is author Paul Buckaner. Welcome to the show.
Speaker 8: Thank you, certainly looking forward to being here with.
Speaker 4: You, Brian.
Speaker 3: I have been looking forward to this conversation. I think
Speaker 3: we've been trying to schedule this since sometime like mid
Speaker 3: twenty twenty four, So I am glad the stars have
Speaker 3: a line for us to finally come together for this interview.
Speaker 3: Let's start where I start with most people. What guy
Speaker 3: you interested in the subject of bigfoot sasquatch.
Speaker 9: To begin with, I talked about this in one of
Speaker 9: my first books, Non Fictionalmen. When I was a kid,
Speaker 9: during the summers here at Eastern Notes, Lahome Loft, we
Speaker 9: always look forward to just having that summer vaca where
Speaker 9: we spend time down the creek, out in the woods,
Speaker 9: anything everywhere.
Speaker 8: But at home.
Speaker 9: This summer was a little bit different because I remember
Speaker 9: the very first day of summer vacation, my dad wakened
Speaker 9: me up early in the morning, said, Hey, get up,
Speaker 9: get dressed, You're coming with me to work today.
Speaker 8: Now, my dad was a carpenter.
Speaker 9: They built houses all over Oklahoma, and my dad, my uncle,
Speaker 9: his nephews, other uncles. My dad was one of eleven
Speaker 9: nine boys and they all did something in the construction
Speaker 9: from a third word to a finished carpentry. So my
Speaker 9: cousin lived right down the road for me. He was
Speaker 9: by my age as well, and we're probably about eleven
Speaker 9: years old or something like that. We're both really looking
Speaker 9: forward to spending time fishing on the creek and all
Speaker 9: this good stuff, but not that day. So I get dressed,
Speaker 9: jumping the drop with Dad and we head to the
Speaker 9: work site.
Speaker 8: It wasn't too far away when we get there.
Speaker 9: It was really, I think, just a ruse to keep
Speaker 9: me from keeping my mom disturbed during the day, get
Speaker 9: him out of the house, that sort of thing. But
Speaker 9: we call up to the job site here, and really
Speaker 9: our job as kids was to stay out of the way,
Speaker 9: pick up scrap lumber here and there, that sort of thing.
Speaker 8: My cousin and I were just messed around in the
Speaker 8: yard plan you know.
Speaker 9: Remember this is probably getting close to lunchtime when one
Speaker 9: of the neighbors comes over and asks where our dad's work.
Speaker 8: Now, this was a time when way before cell phones.
Speaker 8: This was the late.
Speaker 9: Seventies, around nineteen eighties somewhere. Riding there and the neighbor
Speaker 9: came over and said, hey, where's your dad's at. We
Speaker 9: told them they're in the back and they're working on something.
Speaker 9: The guy runs into the house, and it's a few
Speaker 9: minutes later my dad and my uncle come out and said,
Speaker 9: hop in the truck. We got it o, so jump
Speaker 9: into the truck. I'm not knowing what in the world's
Speaker 9: going on. My cousin and I we're riding in the
Speaker 9: back of the truck. Back in the day when you
Speaker 9: could do that but Mike uncle up from top of
Speaker 9: this hill in a first called England Hollow. It was
Speaker 9: pretty remote, third roads, big hills, a lot of woods.
Speaker 8: And the creaked it ring by it.
Speaker 9: But we finally get to the house and my dad
Speaker 9: and uncle they're rushing to the door and my cousin
Speaker 9: and I don't knowing what's going on. But my uncle
Speaker 9: walks on the door because we didn't have his kings
Speaker 9: with him, Like I said, Let'm at the job side
Speaker 9: or something. When we finally get into the house, my
Speaker 9: aunt and my others, she was a younger girl. They
Speaker 9: were hiding in the back and not knowing what in
Speaker 9: the world's going on. She's scared at that. She's just
Speaker 9: trembling and shaving. Then she's trying to get her story out.
Speaker 8: But what it was.
Speaker 9: She had called this neighbor by this house where my
Speaker 9: mom and where my dad and uncle were working, and said, hey,
Speaker 9: you need to get them home right with So the
Speaker 9: neighbor didn't cross the street meeting.
Speaker 8: That's how the word got them.
Speaker 9: She starts telling the story that she was out back
Speaker 9: hanging clothes on the clothes line. Now where they lived,
Speaker 9: the house was right up against the pasture on just
Speaker 9: about all three sides. The road comes up on a hill,
Speaker 9: and then on the other side of these pastures.
Speaker 8: Are these valleys and follows. It was just cattle in
Speaker 8: the pastures. She said.
Speaker 9: She was out hanging until it was up on the line,
Speaker 9: and then she noticed that there was something out in
Speaker 9: the field out there in the pasture behind the house.
Speaker 8: So she didn't really take much attention to it at
Speaker 8: first because the.
Speaker 9: Cows were mus the brazen, they're just meander around and
Speaker 9: not moving a whole lot. She said, it wasn't moving,
Speaker 9: watching it quite a ways out there, so she didn't
Speaker 9: pay any attention. She goes along there, she's hanging up
Speaker 9: more closed, and she notices that it's getting a little
Speaker 9: bit closer to her.
Speaker 8: She starts paying a little bit more attention to and
Speaker 8: she looks up every now and then sees that it's
Speaker 8: a little bit closer.
Speaker 9: And then I'm not sure what it was, but she said,
Speaker 9: she looked up and she saw that this was not
Speaker 9: a cow. It was not a landa, was not a
Speaker 9: farmer out there looking forest cows. She said, this was
Speaker 9: a big, dark figure, black, just covered in hair, you know.
Speaker 9: She said, that's when she streaked out. She grabbed my
Speaker 9: cousin for the little girl and they ran inside. She
Speaker 9: said she would look out the window to see and
Speaker 9: that's when she had made the phone come. During this time,
Speaker 9: she said it made its way over to the bottom,
Speaker 9: which was just on the other side of the house,
Speaker 9: maybe one hundred yards worth, and she said, went over there.
Speaker 9: She tried to watch for it, and it was best
Speaker 9: she could, but she was just scadled them, just shaking trimly.
Speaker 9: And she said, when this preacher went into the barn,
Speaker 9: it came out with one of the bottle taps. They
Speaker 9: had probably half a dozen bottle taps in the barn,
Speaker 9: and she said it picked it up under its rn
Speaker 9: and step over the fence and more off back down
Speaker 9: into a thick and on the other side of the field,
Speaker 9: down into the hall. When we got there, my uncle,
Speaker 9: you were listening to this, my dad, They just said, okay,
Speaker 9: let's go check this out.
Speaker 8: And they let us boys go out that too. So
Speaker 8: we're down here by the barn.
Speaker 9: Now my answers in the house, she'd all along, come
Speaker 9: out and this is a Christian lady. It's audying her
Speaker 9: to tell a story. You're making anything up. We got
Speaker 9: to the barn and we didn't see tracks. I remember
Speaker 9: the feet princh because they had plunted them mount and
Speaker 9: my uncle was saying, yeah, one of the caps is gone.
Speaker 8: Family.
Speaker 9: The tracks meant exactly like mine. It had two of
Speaker 9: them that didn't looked down on the field, Uncle, my dad.
Speaker 8: They grapped their.
Speaker 9: John's and we went down through the fields and basically
Speaker 9: based that same pack.
Speaker 8: Never found me any sign, never seeing anything else, and.
Speaker 9: No other reports from the neighbors or anything, but the
Speaker 9: cap was definitely musten. There was definitely footprints there, and
Speaker 9: that was my first experience with the hopes no fip.
Speaker 8: So from that on I fascinated with this subject.
Speaker 3: Obviously you might not have known at the time because
Speaker 3: you were a kid, but did you ever have any
Speaker 3: follow up conversations with anybody in your family? Was Bigfoot
Speaker 3: or Sasquatch on the radar for them at that point
Speaker 3: in time, and did they give any credence to the
Speaker 3: fact that might have been what picked the calf up
Speaker 3: and took off with it.
Speaker 9: Yes, and no, I remember a lot of the conversations
Speaker 9: going around them. Not that because there was another report
Speaker 9: not much later than that about a sighting in dutch
Speaker 9: Mill's Birkansas, where we lived in northeastern Okinghome. Dutch Mills
Speaker 9: was less than ten miles away to the state line,
Speaker 9: and this is northeast Okma, so you're in the foothills
Speaker 9: of the Osons. And that report was a farmer he
Speaker 9: had a chicken house broke into lake one night and
Speaker 9: he went out with a shotgun. He foind out what
Speaker 9: was going on, if it was coyotes getting his chickens
Speaker 9: or what have you. But this was one of those
Speaker 9: houses that saw of the like sixty thousand chickens of them,
Speaker 9: so it's got the big galvanized metal doors that pulling out.
Speaker 9: I think the report was that this creature had broken
Speaker 9: the ad, grabbed some chickens and was leading and who
Speaker 9: said the farm word took a shot at it, and
Speaker 9: it had screened at him and turned and ran away
Speaker 9: with some of the chickens. The door to the chicken
Speaker 9: house was actually ripped off the hinges, and that was
Speaker 9: in the couple of the newspapers at that time. And
Speaker 9: this was maybe a month or so after this report
Speaker 9: with my own aunt, so it was.
Speaker 8: On everybody's ready arcave time. I'm not sure if.
Speaker 9: It could have been something to do with the movie
Speaker 9: Legend of Body gree and that was everybody's little introduction
Speaker 9: to Bibbs Rock at that time.
Speaker 8: But yeah, there was a lot of talk going on
Speaker 8: in the trimmunity.
Speaker 3: Was that the end of your personal experiences or for
Speaker 3: the personal experiences and the people in your family?
Speaker 8: That was it for the folks in the field? Now
Speaker 8: later and gone.
Speaker 9: I've had a few other experiences to me because it's
Speaker 9: one of the things that I don't know. It was
Speaker 9: something that always stuck with me, So I was just
Speaker 9: always interested in there. So I had done some research
Speaker 9: to read a lot of books and different things like that.
Speaker 9: But a little bit later on, after high school, I
Speaker 9: was actually a professionalizian, So I was out on the
Speaker 9: road by the high school, and one of the things
Speaker 9: that I'd love to do was to visit worth people
Speaker 9: from other states and different parts of the country and
Speaker 9: stuff and talk about that. And that introduced me to
Speaker 9: a lot of different people and about the same exact subject.
Speaker 8: Wow, I met a lot of people.
Speaker 9: From Ohnevi, Oklahoma, which is down south structure familiar with onevy,
Speaker 9: but the fantastic little town, if you can call it
Speaker 9: a town, there was a store, but I had a
Speaker 9: lot of experience for talking to a lot of people
Speaker 9: that had encounters. I've never had an account of myself
Speaker 9: one time there in old and I mean this was
Speaker 9: back when, oh gosh, the mid nineties.
Speaker 8: We always roll.
Speaker 9: Our food goos down there because there's a few hundred
Speaker 9: thousand and eight rooms, three rivers around in that area,
Speaker 9: and they did a lot of dry cutting back there, logging,
Speaker 9: so there's a lot of logging trails that ran all
Speaker 9: over those mountains. My buddies and I we would go
Speaker 9: down there and just ride full wheelers because one of
Speaker 9: them onto a small cabin up on the hill on
Speaker 9: the mountain. We decided we're going to go down there
Speaker 9: one weekend, and I was going to meet them there
Speaker 9: because I had lived in still All, Oklahoma at that
Speaker 9: time and they lived in Tulsa. So we were just
Speaker 9: going to triangulate and meet there together. But at the
Speaker 9: same time for the weekend, there was about ten of
Speaker 9: us all together, but I was the only one coming
Speaker 9: from my direction. So I've got a truck with a
Speaker 9: trailer on the back. I had three four wheelers on
Speaker 9: the back, and when I get there, started getting laid
Speaker 9: in the evening, I drive up on the mountain and
Speaker 9: turn off the road. When you turn off the road,
Speaker 9: it's just a it's a log cut road with chainsaws,
Speaker 9: and you're lucky to get through there.
Speaker 8: It's just winding all back in there and stuff.
Speaker 9: And you finally get to the cabin and I'm pulling
Speaker 9: a twenty foot trailer behind this.
Speaker 8: Truck all these four wheelers on there. I gotta go
Speaker 8: really slow.
Speaker 9: Now when I get down to the cabin, I have
Speaker 9: to try to back this thing in and get out
Speaker 9: of the way so that when they come in, they're
Speaker 9: going to do the same thing. It's just really tough
Speaker 9: hairpind turns here and there and stuff. So I get there.
Speaker 8: And I'm waiting on the guys. I'm listening to the
Speaker 8: radio in.
Speaker 9: The truck, just sitting there, and it's getting later and
Speaker 9: they're still not here. And it starts getting dark now
Speaker 9: up there in the mountains. If there's no moon on
Speaker 9: it or any stars out, you cannot see your hand
Speaker 9: in front of your face.
Speaker 8: It is pitch black. That's the way it was that
Speaker 8: particular night.
Speaker 9: So I'm sitting here and I had the truck running
Speaker 9: at first, but then I had turned it off. Your
Speaker 9: radio will stay on for fifteen minutes or so when
Speaker 9: it goes off like that. So I'm sitting here and
Speaker 9: the radio finally dies, and the dashlights go off too,
Speaker 9: and now I'm just from right into that pitch blackness.
Speaker 9: And of course we always rode down there. When we
Speaker 9: rode down there, it's always on the guys of hey,
Speaker 9: we're going to go big flying. That's just what we
Speaker 9: do in old Nahdi. I'm sitting there waiting. Now it's
Speaker 9: pitch dark, and it's quiet, and you can hear the
Speaker 9: cicadas and the bullfrogs and different things like that.
Speaker 8: Then all of a sudden, I hear this crunch, if
Speaker 8: you will.
Speaker 9: Not too far from me where I'm sitting in the truss,
Speaker 9: And I thought, I wonder what that is?
Speaker 8: And I thought, should I turn on the lights?
Speaker 9: But if I turn on the lights, it's going to
Speaker 9: blind me too, because it's pitch black, you know how
Speaker 9: that is. I didn't want to turn on the lights,
Speaker 9: just check. So I'm sitting here and then I hear
Speaker 9: it again.
Speaker 8: And then when I.
Speaker 9: Heard it the next time, everything just went quiet, just
Speaker 9: super quiet, and there's no more rule frogs, nonmal crickets,
Speaker 9: no more cicadas, nothing, It's just it's quiet. The only
Speaker 9: thing that you could hear was the ticking of the
Speaker 9: engine as it's cooling down of the night and my
Speaker 9: windows are down, and I just I'm hearing this over
Speaker 9: to the side of me.
Speaker 8: Now, I don't have a flashlight with me.
Speaker 9: The only thing I did have was the headlights on
Speaker 9: the truck to turn them on, but I still didn't
Speaker 9: want to do that, so I thought, Okay, whatever it is,
Speaker 9: it's not coming over here. I'm in a four wheel
Speaker 9: drive truck. A few minutes later, I hear it again,
Speaker 9: but it's a lot closer. But this time the window
Speaker 9: in my truck where I'm sitting here, it just feels up.
Speaker 9: I didn't smell anything. You're just in closed like somebody
Speaker 9: just covered up that window. It was just like this muskiness.
Speaker 9: But it wasn't a smell like what you'd associate with
Speaker 9: what the reports are, like a really bad odor or
Speaker 9: anything like that. It was just this muskiness and there
Speaker 9: was that window.
Speaker 8: Was covered with something. That's the last thing I've remember.
Speaker 9: The next thing I remember, I was sitting down ten
Speaker 9: miles away at the store, waiting on the rest of
Speaker 9: the guys to get.
Speaker 3: There and stay tuned for more sasquatch out to see
Speaker 3: We'll be right back after these.
Speaker 8: Messages everything in between there.
Speaker 9: I have no idea how I got back through the
Speaker 9: woods with the trailer and the four wheelers all still
Speaker 9: attached back down there, I have no idea they were
Speaker 9: all memory of everything from that point to that point
Speaker 9: was gone.
Speaker 8: To this day, I have no idea what I have.
Speaker 8: I don't know. That was just a pretty arrowing encounter.
Speaker 8: It scared me.
Speaker 9: And I'm not afraid of the dark. I'm an avid
Speaker 9: hunter or an outdoorsement I'm out there all the time.
Speaker 9: It just nothing like that ever has ever scared me.
Speaker 9: But that night I was terrified, and I don't know
Speaker 9: what it was.
Speaker 3: That is definitely not the first time I have heard
Speaker 3: heard of what I would consider And I don't want
Speaker 3: to put words in your mouth, but it sounds like
Speaker 3: you have a missing time situation where you're in an
Speaker 3: area where there's potentially sasquatch activity and then you can't
Speaker 3: remember this stretch of time. Have you heard other experiences
Speaker 3: that people have shared with you, or if you heard
Speaker 3: of other experiences that you give credibility to where people
Speaker 3: have experienced something similar to that, where they have this
Speaker 3: missing time thing.
Speaker 9: Yeah, there's been a couple after that, because I think
Speaker 9: at that point was when I really started diving more
Speaker 9: into this particular phenomenon with this whole time loss thing.
Speaker 8: I did.
Speaker 9: I talk to another lady at one point that was
Speaker 9: from that Fishermingo area, which is a little bit further
Speaker 9: on down south, something very similar happened to her where
Speaker 9: she had went out one night because the dogs were
Speaker 9: just going crazy. So she steps out onto her porch
Speaker 9: and she's looking around and she's walking around the house
Speaker 9: and she said she turned the corner and she saw
Speaker 9: something standing there, and the next thing she knew, she
Speaker 9: was back in the house. She was waking up, and
Speaker 9: it had been several hours from that time. And this
Speaker 9: particular area is not that far away from where we
Speaker 9: were at in Jnah, And so those types of reports
Speaker 9: I've heard those as well. To me, that was a
Speaker 9: very credible report because she is not wanted to just
Speaker 9: to tell me things just to be heard, but it
Speaker 9: happened to her. She truly believed it, but she doesn't
Speaker 9: remember anything about it, is remember what she saw. I
Speaker 9: think there's a lot too there, But I think there's
Speaker 9: something too about I don't know. It could be something
Speaker 9: that we do to protect ourselves, maybe the trauma so
Speaker 9: that we repress those memories or something.
Speaker 8: So I think there's a lot to that.
Speaker 3: I know your main gig here is being an author,
Speaker 3: but you do your own research, and you do look
Speaker 3: into these stories, You do look into this phenomenon. Is
Speaker 3: there anything that you go to do you go to
Speaker 3: say some of the Native American experiences, some of the
Speaker 3: Native American history that's been passed down. I've literally read
Speaker 3: articles within the last year or so from Skeptical magazine
Speaker 3: that claims that there is nothing in the Native American
Speaker 3: history of any Native Americans that talk about Sasquatch or Bigfoot.
Speaker 3: But I know that's not true, right, Anybody who looks
Speaker 3: into this subject for five minutes can find numerous stories
Speaker 3: and numerous references in the Native American culture. So I
Speaker 3: guess my question is do you take a stance or
Speaker 3: are you more open to all of the things, Because
Speaker 3: there's usually in this there's two camps, right, You've got
Speaker 3: the flesh and Blood camp. These things are some big, giant,
Speaker 3: hairy ape in the woods, and then you have the
Speaker 3: more wo or high strangeness or spiritual if you will
Speaker 3: to the research. Do you take either one of those
Speaker 3: approaches in your research or do you implore all of
Speaker 3: that and looking into the subject. How do you approach
Speaker 3: the subject in your research? Is it more flesh and
Speaker 3: blood based, is it a mixture of or is it
Speaker 3: all more of the high strangeness.
Speaker 9: I'll tell you speaking of the Native American approach, that's
Speaker 9: one of the things that is fascinated to me.
Speaker 8: There's a lot of different Native.
Speaker 9: American stories, especially in charity culture, because I've worked in
Speaker 9: the last twenty years from our tribe Charity Nation here
Speaker 9: at Oklahoma. And one of the things that really got
Speaker 9: me wanting to interview Cherokee people because if you look
Speaker 9: in my last two roll ups, most of those are
Speaker 9: all charity and citizens. One of the things that I
Speaker 9: really wanted to find out is prepared one type of
Speaker 9: showthlority you have about Pidfoot? So are there any stories
Speaker 9: in particular about a preaching like this.
Speaker 8: One thing that I've found really fast moving.
Speaker 9: Is that there all I know, particular stories about Bigfoot
Speaker 9: that have been handled down in the Cherokee notion.
Speaker 8: Here we have it's all national treasures.
Speaker 9: And these national treasures are basically people that helped gratuate
Speaker 9: the culture, that have retelled those little brothers in ark,
Speaker 9: helping to teach that to the intergenerations. A couple of
Speaker 9: those are storytellers now, treasure storytellers. And I've spoken that
Speaker 9: ninth of things about this and from the different stories
Speaker 9: that they've been told and passed down, there are none
Speaker 9: in the Church of the Nation.
Speaker 8: However, within the Eastern.
Speaker 9: Churchy band of Induans, which is who knows out and what,
Speaker 9: there is a story that comes forth to us. And
Speaker 9: that story was actually told back in the eighteen eighties
Speaker 9: by it and by James Mooney, doctor James Mooney, and
Speaker 9: it was recorded again the book History Notes and Sacred
Speaker 9: from him was of the charities and what James Mooney did.
Speaker 9: He was basically an an anthropologist anthemabologist, and he lived
Speaker 9: with the Cherokee people from about eighteen eighty seven about
Speaker 9: eighteen ninety closer to nineteen hundred two. So during all
Speaker 9: this time as to living for Cherore people, he would
Speaker 9: collect their stories. He would write these down in doctriment
Speaker 9: these things. One of the stories in particular is about
Speaker 9: a preacher. Every bit described like Bigfoot would be to death.
Speaker 8: And the preacher was called in the.
Speaker 9: Book and it may be written down wrong. He may
Speaker 9: have reported the name incorrectness on how because the word
Speaker 9: is jude kalou juw kaloo. Now very interesting here because
Speaker 9: the story is that a young maiden still looked with
Speaker 9: her mother. The old woman was telling her that we
Speaker 9: need to find a husband. It's time for you to
Speaker 9: find that husband, but make sure he's a good honer.
Speaker 9: So the ape it provides for the family. The maiden
Speaker 9: does find a husband, and the husband actually is a
Speaker 9: very glad owner, one of the greatest hunters, and he
Speaker 9: lives way of pineing the mountain. But she wants the
Speaker 9: meeting now, okay, so in order to meet him, he
Speaker 9: has a few domains. She can't basically freak oltain the
Speaker 9: way he looks, so wose days there one night with
Speaker 9: his wife, gets up early the next morning the meet
Speaker 9: and mother, and the mother sees him and she's scared
Speaker 9: to death because the way he is described is that
Speaker 9: he was.
Speaker 8: A giant covered in name, air, slokes, forehead, slamped in eyes,
Speaker 8: just huge.
Speaker 3: I had to jump in here and give you all
Speaker 3: a little more background on this Judicaulu legend that Paul
Speaker 3: is referring to. I did some digging into Cherokee oral tradition,
Speaker 3: and honestly, this story is way more fascinating than I
Speaker 3: initially realized. Here's what I The Judiculu legend stands as
Speaker 3: one of the most captivating and enduring stories in Cherokee
Speaker 3: oral tradition, weaving together elements of the supernatural, the natural world,
Speaker 3: an ancient cultural memory into a tale that has fascinated
Speaker 3: both Cherokee people and outsiders for generations. At the heart
Speaker 3: of this legend is Judiculu himself, a towering giant whose
Speaker 3: very name strikes a balance between the fearsome and the mysterious.
Speaker 3: The Cherokee knew him as zul Kalu, which translates roughly
Speaker 3: to slant eyed or he has them slanted, referring to
Speaker 3: his distinctive eyes that were said to be positioned at
Speaker 3: an unusual angle. European settlers and later historians corrupted this
Speaker 3: name into Judahiculu, though the original Cherokee pronunciation carries far
Speaker 3: more weight and meaning within the cultural context. According to
Speaker 3: Cherokee tradition, Judahiculu was no ordinary giant. He was a
Speaker 3: supernatural being of immense power who ruled over the high
Speaker 3: mountains of what is now West Stern, North Carolina, particularly
Speaker 3: the area around the Balsam Mountains and the region that
Speaker 3: would later be known as Jackson County. His domain was
Speaker 3: the realm where the physical and spiritual worlds intersected, where
Speaker 3: the rules of ordinary existence bent to accommodate his extraordinary nature.
Speaker 3: The legends described Judiculu as having seven fingers instead of five,
Speaker 3: with each digit possessing incredible strength. His size was so
Speaker 3: immense that he could stride from mountain peak to mountain
Speaker 3: peak as easily as a human might step from stone
Speaker 3: to stone across a creek. When he walked, the earth
Speaker 3: trembled beneath his feet, and when he was angry, thunder
Speaker 3: would roll across the mountains even on clear days. His eyes,
Speaker 3: those distinctively slanted features that gave him his name, were
Speaker 3: said to glow with an inner fire that could be
Speaker 3: seen from great distances in the darkness. What made Judiculu
Speaker 3: particularly significant and Cherokee cosmology was his role as both
Speaker 3: protector and potential threat. He was deeply connected to the hunt,
Speaker 3: serving as a guardian of the game animals in his
Speaker 3: mountain territory. Hunters who showed proper respect and followed traditional
Speaker 3: protocols might find themselves blessed with successful hunts under his
Speaker 3: watchful eye. However, those who violated hunting taboos, showed disrespect
Speaker 3: to the animals, or hunted too greedily would face his
Speaker 3: terrible wrath. The most famous physical evidence of Judicula's presence
Speaker 3: is the Judiculu Rock, a massive soapstone boulder covered in
Speaker 3: petroglyphs that sits in what is now Jackson County, North Carolina.
Speaker 3: Cherokee tradition holds that these mysterious markings were made by
Speaker 3: Judicula himself when he leaped down from his mountain home,
Speaker 3: landing so hard that his seven fingered hands and feet
Speaker 3: left permanent impressions in the stone. The rock, which archaeologists
Speaker 3: believe may contain some of the oldest petroglyphs in North America,
Speaker 3: serves as a tangible connection between the legendary past and
Speaker 3: the present day. The petroglyphs themselves tell their own story.
Speaker 3: Swirling patterns, human like figures, animal shapes, and abstract designs
Speaker 3: cover the boulder's surface in a complex tapestry that has
Speaker 3: defied complete interpretation. Some Cherokee elders have suggested that these
Speaker 3: markings represent a form of ancient writing or map, possibly
Speaker 3: indicating hunting territories, seasonal movements, or spiritual boundaries. Others see
Speaker 3: them as Judiculu's own artistic expression, a giant's doodles left
Speaker 3: for posterity beyond the rock. Numerous geographic features throughout the
Speaker 3: Southern Appalachians bear witness to Judicula's legendary presence. Deep gouges
Speaker 3: and mountain sides were said to be the marks of
Speaker 3: his fingernails as he climbed. Certain rock formations were believed
Speaker 3: to be his seats or sleeping places. Springs and streams
Speaker 3: in his territory were thought to be sacred places where
Speaker 3: he would drink or bathe. Even today, local names reflect
Speaker 3: this heritage. Judiculu's Chair, Judiculu Creek, and other landmarks keep
Speaker 3: the giant's memory alive in the landscape. The legend also
Speaker 3: encompasses Judicola's interactions with the Cherokee people themselves. Unlike many
Speaker 3: giant figures in world mythology, who are portrayed as universally
Speaker 3: hostile to humans, Judiculu's relationship with the Cherokee was complex
Speaker 3: and nuanced. He could be benevolent to those who respected
Speaker 3: his domain and the natural world he protected. Stories tell
Speaker 3: of hunters who encountered him directly and lived to tell
Speaker 3: the tale, often because they had demonstrated proper reverence for
Speaker 3: the animals they pursued and the land they traversed. However,
Speaker 3: Judiculu's justice could be swift and terrible. Tales speak of
Speaker 3: hunters who violated sacred protocols, disappearing without a trace in
Speaker 3: his mountains, or of those who showed disrespect, finding their
Speaker 3: weapons mysteriously broken or their hunting ground suddenly devoid of game.
Speaker 3: He was particularly vigilant about protecting pregnant animals and young offspring,
Speaker 3: and those who killed them out of s or unnecessarily
Speaker 3: might find themselves facing supernatural consequences. One particularly rich vein
Speaker 3: of Judiculu stories involves his role in shaping the landscape itself.
Speaker 3: Cherokee tradition credits him with carving out valleys, moving rivers,
Speaker 3: and even creating some of the distinctive rock formations that
Speaker 3: characterized the southern Appalachian region. When he was pleased, the
Speaker 3: land would flourish with abundant game and fertile soil. When angered,
Speaker 3: he might cause landslides, floods, or other natural disasters. The
Speaker 3: legend also incorporates elements of star lore and cosmic connection.
Speaker 3: Some versions of the story suggest that Judiculu came from
Speaker 3: the sky world, connecting him to Cherokee astronomical traditions and
Speaker 3: seasonal ceremonies. His slanted eyes were sometimes said to reflect
Speaker 3: his ability to see into other worlds or to perceive
Speaker 3: things hidden from ordinary vision. As European colonization intensified and
Speaker 3: Cherokee people were increasingly displaced from their ancestral lands, the
Speaker 3: Judiculu legend took on new dimensions. Some stories began to
Speaker 3: incorporate the giant as a protector, specifically against foreign intrusion,
Speaker 3: a supernatural guardian who would ultimately defend Cherokee territory against
Speaker 3: outside threats. The legend thus became not just a story
Speaker 3: about the past, but a source of hope and resistance
Speaker 3: for the future. The forced removal of the Cherokee people
Speaker 3: during the Trail of Tears in the eighteen thirties might
Speaker 3: have marked the end of active connection to Judicula's territory.
Speaker 3: But the legend persisted in Cherokee communities wherever they relocated.
Speaker 3: Elders continued to tell the stories, and the memory of
Speaker 3: the great giant remained alive in tribal consciousness even as
Speaker 3: the people were separated from the physical landscape of his domain.
Speaker 3: In more recent times, the Judiculu legend has experienced something
Speaker 3: of a renaissance. Archaeological investigations of the Judiculu Rock have
Speaker 3: brought new attention to the site, while Cherokee cultural preservation
Speaker 3: efforts have worked to document and share traditional stories with
Speaker 3: new generations. The North Carolina mountains that were once Judiculu's
Speaker 3: exclusive domain now welcome visitors who come specifically to learn
Speaker 3: about Cherokee heritage and to see the mysterious petroglyphs for themselves.
Speaker 3: Modern Cherokee storytellers continue to adapt and retell the Judiculu legend,
Speaker 3: sometimes incorporating contemporary concerns about environmental protection and cultural preservation.
Speaker 3: In these newer versions, Judiculu's role as a guardian of
Speaker 3: the natural world resonates with current struggles to protect wilderness
Speaker 3: areas and maintain traditional relationships with the land. The legend
Speaker 3: has also captured the imagination of non Cherokee audiences, inspiring artists, writers,
Speaker 3: and researchers who see in Judiculu's story universal themes about
Speaker 3: humanity's relationship with nature, the power of place, and the
Speaker 3: importance of respecting the world around us. However, Cherokee communities
Speaker 3: have worked to ensure that this its broader interest doesn't
Speaker 3: come at the expense of cultural authenticity or appropriate respect
Speaker 3: for tribal traditions. Today, the Judiculu Rock remains a focal
Speaker 3: point for both Cherokee cultural activities and public education. The
Speaker 3: Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians, along with various preservation organizations,
Speaker 3: work to maintain the site and provide interpretation that honors
Speaker 3: both the archaeological significance of the petroglyphs and their continuing
Speaker 3: importance in Cherokee's spiritual and cultural life. The enduring power
Speaker 3: of the Judiculu legend lies not just in its entertainment value,
Speaker 3: but in its function as a bridge between past and present,
Speaker 3: between the physical and spiritual worlds, and between Cherokee people
Speaker 3: and their ancestral landscape. In an age when many Indigenous
Speaker 3: stories have been lost or forgotten, Judiculu's tale continues to thrive,
Speaker 3: carrying forward ancient wisdom about respect, responsibility, and the sacred
Speaker 3: nature of the world around us. Whether one approaches the
Speaker 3: legend as mythology, as cultural heritage, or as a window
Speaker 3: into pre Columbian spirituality, the story of Judahculu offers rich
Speaker 3: insights into Cherokee worldview and values. It reminds us that
Speaker 3: the landscape itself can be a repository of memory and meaning,
Speaker 3: and that some stories are powerful enough to survive centuries
Speaker 3: of change while continuing to speak to new generations about
Speaker 3: timeless truths. Now back to Paul's stories and stay tuned
Speaker 3: for more sasquatch out to see. We'll be right back
Speaker 3: after these messages.
Speaker 9: Everything about this story, if you are asked in with
Speaker 9: the charity people, now, it's not it. That's something else,
Speaker 9: a supernatural beat. But everything about it is Bidbrooke. He
Speaker 9: lives up with an nowts is great hunter, but in
Speaker 9: the end of the story goes away with his wife
Speaker 9: and his family.
Speaker 8: We are not to be to see him again as
Speaker 8: long as he wants us to.
Speaker 9: So everything about that story says speaks of it well,
Speaker 9: the word it said of Juke Kololoo.
Speaker 8: It's really just it's jibberish.
Speaker 9: It's put together Cherokee a syllabarry, so it doesn't really
Speaker 9: mean anything. But what's really interesting about this there's also
Speaker 9: this pretrick Bluh in North Carolina called Judah Cooula rock
Speaker 9: Julah Coula so Juke Coloo. The similarities are there, but
Speaker 9: the better bliss are said to me about two thousand
Speaker 9: years old and they're Cherokee.
Speaker 8: So it's a very interesting store.
Speaker 4: Oh c O TV.
Speaker 9: Jennifer lorrens that paper show they had a sad but
Speaker 9: on that rock itself, it is a national historical landmark there,
Speaker 9: So I think that's this very telling me in on itself.
Speaker 9: So June Talou or Judahkula same thing, So there's a
Speaker 9: lot of similarity there to that.
Speaker 8: That's why I have really.
Speaker 9: Dedicated to my stuff to interviewing Cherokee, was to find
Speaker 9: out what kind of experiences they've and what kind of
Speaker 9: storms have been passed down.
Speaker 8: That's just like the being hidden in their construct.
Speaker 9: We're very glorld tradition struck, so all these stories are
Speaker 9: passed down in generation generation.
Speaker 3: I live in North Carolina, so you've given me a
Speaker 3: rabbit hole to go down. I'm already wanting to get
Speaker 3: on Google and see how far away I am from
Speaker 3: this rock, because I'm going to go down that and
Speaker 3: see maybe if I can make a pilgrimage up to
Speaker 3: check it out. Yes, in your research, I guess I'll
Speaker 3: get more pointed here in your research. As far as
Speaker 3: looking into this subject, I think it's an evolution for us.
Speaker 3: I know I've been in the subject since I was twelve,
Speaker 3: and that's a lot of years ago at this point,
Speaker 3: because I think I had an experience back when I
Speaker 3: was twelve years old. But I have evolved over the years.
Speaker 3: I started off very staunch. I'm a sixteen year law
Speaker 3: enforcement veteran, so I have nuts and bolts kind of
Speaker 3: brain when it comes to anything in life, particularly this
Speaker 3: kind of subject. So I'm very skeptical. I've had my
Speaker 3: own experiences. I got to see these things three times
Speaker 3: last year in two days, so I had a huge
Speaker 3: epiphany for me because I was very skeptical. I was
Speaker 3: fifty to fifty whether these things ever existed, and then
Speaker 3: I got to see them last year. So I am
Speaker 3: one hundred percent nowhere. But I still think there is
Speaker 3: there's no thinking. I know there are camps in Bigfoot
Speaker 3: where people lean more towards the flesh and blood versus
Speaker 3: the high strangeness, or maybe metaphysical beings, or there's portals.
Speaker 4: Involved, maybe aliens involved.
Speaker 3: I always started, I planted my flag firmly in the
Speaker 3: flesh and blood camp until I had some of my
Speaker 3: experiences last year. I've talked about it before openly. One
Speaker 3: of those experiences was I had a daylight siding of
Speaker 3: one of these things peaking around a tree, and then
Speaker 3: I had two very close encounters, one from about twenty
Speaker 3: feet away, the other one was ten feet away at
Speaker 3: night the following day. But part of that was seeing
Speaker 3: self illuminating white eyes. I saw two sets of large
Speaker 3: self illuminating eyes, and this thing was bobbing and weaving
Speaker 3: back and forth like many anybody who's ever taken a
Speaker 3: bigfoot encounter, if you take ten, there's probably going to
Speaker 3: be one of them bobbing and weaving in some shape
Speaker 3: form or fashion. Sure, So after those experiences, I really
Speaker 3: walked away feeling like there may be more to these
Speaker 3: creatures than I was giving credit in the beginning. I
Speaker 3: still think they can be flesh and blood creatures just
Speaker 3: like you and I, with maybe some superabilities like glowing eyes.
Speaker 3: Because here's the thing we've done entire shit. I host
Speaker 3: multiple podcasts, obviously, that Bigfoot podcast is another show that
Speaker 3: I do with my co host Wayne.
Speaker 4: Wayne and I have talked about this.
Speaker 3: We had a PhD on and had a conversation about
Speaker 3: how can these things basically define nature?
Speaker 8: Right?
Speaker 3: Because if you look at nature and known creatures, right,
Speaker 3: a gazelle is one of the fastest creatures on Earth.
Speaker 3: But by and large, if a gazelle encounters a tiger
Speaker 3: or a bear that's much bigger and stronger, the gazelle
Speaker 3: becomes prey. If they're caught, they're overpowered because they're not
Speaker 3: fast and strong. So to doctor Cherau, the PhD that
Speaker 3: we had on to doctor Cherrou's point, how can Bigfoot
Speaker 3: be the biggest, fastest, strongest, stealthiest, all of the abovest
Speaker 3: thing in nature and still be a physical creature.
Speaker 4: That's always made me think.
Speaker 3: But obviously, after I had my own personal experiences where
Speaker 3: I saw this thing's eyes glowing, two sets of glowing eyes,
Speaker 3: I walked away from that reevaluating where I was on
Speaker 3: the subject. I'm not saying I'm moving that flag necessarily
Speaker 3: from staunchly flesh and blood to maybe something else. But
Speaker 3: where are you and how do you reconcile those kind
Speaker 3: of stories in your research? Do you think it's possible?
Speaker 3: And obviously this is a very subjective question. I don't
Speaker 3: mean to put you on the spot. There is no
Speaker 3: right answer going into this. But where are you personally?
Speaker 3: Are you on a similar journey where you adjust as
Speaker 3: new information comes in or are you stuck in one
Speaker 3: place or the other versus saying blesh and blood versus
Speaker 3: maybe something else.
Speaker 8: Yeah, I think I'm a lot.
Speaker 9: It's where you were at because for the longest time
Speaker 9: I firmly believe that this is something that it's completely
Speaker 9: inflesh and blood. But the more and more that I
Speaker 9: had really recently talked to different people and recording these
Speaker 9: different encounters and witnesses, there's so many other elements that
Speaker 9: go into it. When you think of me, I do
Speaker 9: believe some people are just more attuned to certain I
Speaker 9: don't have supernatural type things like, for instance, spirits in
Speaker 9: the spirit world. When you're talking about that, especially with
Speaker 9: the Native American tribes, there are a lot of supernatural beats,
Speaker 9: different creatures and different things like that. And then when
Speaker 9: you talk to other witnesses that talk about their encounters,
Speaker 9: that the different things that they experienced during that encounter.
Speaker 9: It's a very physical thing, but it's also very emotional
Speaker 9: and somewhat supernatural. There's got to be that element tude
Speaker 9: because there's something else.
Speaker 8: There that I don't know is.
Speaker 9: I'm not really sure how to explain it, but I
Speaker 9: really think that some people are more susceptible to those
Speaker 9: types of things, that can see those things, where other
Speaker 9: people will just gloss right over that. So I'm at
Speaker 9: that camp that there's something more.
Speaker 8: To it than just flesh and blood. So what is that?
Speaker 9: I don't know what the extent of that is yet.
Speaker 9: I think that's the interesting part of it. The exciting
Speaker 9: part about that is trying to figure that part out.
Speaker 3: That's exactly where I am, man. I've said it so
Speaker 3: many times. I used to be really and I still
Speaker 3: am to some degree into the evidence part of it.
Speaker 3: I love to say, see video, I love to see photographs,
Speaker 3: I love to see footprints cast The footprints are probably
Speaker 3: my favorite thing to look into. But at the same time,
Speaker 3: those things have failed to prove anything over the course
Speaker 3: of the last fifty sixty years. That we've been looking
Speaker 3: into this, and I've said it before openly, I've admitted
Speaker 3: my own faults in this, and I've admitted my change
Speaker 3: and shift in my perception because I think, and honestly
Speaker 3: i've said this before, I think people who are looking
Speaker 3: into this objectively for the right reasons, as you get
Speaker 3: new information in, you have to shift your thinking, you
Speaker 3: have to shift your hypothesis. If you stick to one
Speaker 3: thing and you're so rigid in your beliefs that you
Speaker 3: never change, I don't think you're growing, and I don't
Speaker 3: think you're learning anything. So you can't dismiss wholeheartedly or
Speaker 3: as a group collectively, all of this other information that
Speaker 3: comes in. I think you do yourself and the subject
Speaker 3: a real disservice as far as I'm concerned. So I'll
Speaker 3: get off my high horse, I'll get off my soap
Speaker 3: by let's shift gears. As a fellow author, I put
Speaker 3: out two books in the last two years. I am
Speaker 3: always fascinated with people who write about this subject and
Speaker 3: frankly anything. So let's transition and talk about your books.
Speaker 3: At what point did you get in your research where
Speaker 3: you decided to start writing about these things? And let's
Speaker 3: talk about your first book and kind of move chronologically
Speaker 3: through those books. Because I know you have several that
Speaker 3: are out there, I certainly want to give you opportunity
Speaker 3: to talk about those and what was the process behind them,
Speaker 3: what was the impetus for you writing those books, and
Speaker 3: what can people expect when they go out and pick
Speaker 3: them up.
Speaker 9: My first book was actually a fictional book because it's
Speaker 9: obviously the whole thing about Bigfoot. There's so many stories
Speaker 9: that I've collected over the years. I'm a storyteller myself.
Speaker 9: I love that whole aspect of it. So the first
Speaker 9: two books, the Hawthorn Leg series, was just a really
Speaker 9: fun introduction into writing, because that was the I think
Speaker 9: the fun and exciting part about this, the whole thing
Speaker 9: about being in college. I want to write that great
Speaker 9: American novel may not be necessarily the Great American novel,
Speaker 9: but it is something that I've found very relatable to
Speaker 9: my life growing up and all these different stories that
Speaker 9: I've collected and my Native American background. So I wanted
Speaker 9: to put that into a story, all of these different
Speaker 9: things that folks that I've talked to over the years,
Speaker 9: the different tribe that I've talked to, not just from Cherokee,
Speaker 9: but from the Comanchee. I've got friends that are Navado,
Speaker 9: friends that are Peoria and Seneca and kick a Poo.
Speaker 9: So I've collected so many different stories of this is
Speaker 9: a great opportunity just that has a really fun outlet
Speaker 9: for that, because I'm sure that you understand you have
Speaker 9: to have that outlet too. You can take all this in,
Speaker 9: but if you don't have that creative outlet, what do
Speaker 9: you do with it? It stays pent up. So that
Speaker 9: was my first two books, the Hawthorn Leg Series Siege
Speaker 9: Hawthorn Lake.
Speaker 8: But then all of these.
Speaker 9: Other stories and stuff when I've really started dedicating myself
Speaker 9: to trying to some of those little ribbons that connect
Speaker 9: us with the Cherokee stories and our ancestors and stuff.
Speaker 8: Those were the non fiction. That's the volume one, Volume
Speaker 8: two that I've done.
Speaker 9: Now, I've interviewed so many different folks, and I've also
Speaker 9: filtered through a lot of different interviews and stuff too
Speaker 9: to get to the ones that I've got in the
Speaker 9: books now, the ones that I did put them to
Speaker 9: paper on. These are some really fascinating stories and some
Speaker 9: really fascinating people that I've able to talk to and
Speaker 9: they're all Cherokee Nation citizens, and stay tuned.
Speaker 4: For more Sasquatch out to see. We'll be right back
Speaker 4: after these messages.
Speaker 9: The next thing that I really want to progress this
Speaker 9: and start talking to other Cherokee from the Eastern Band
Speaker 9: because when we're removed from our homelands, I think a
Speaker 9: lot of those original stories were lost to us here
Speaker 9: in Oklahoma, but the Eastern Band and still retain. It's
Speaker 9: a lot of that knowledge and a lot of that history.
Speaker 9: So I want to take this what we have here
Speaker 9: and really compare and contrast back to what they have
Speaker 9: back east, because like I said, I think there's so
Speaker 9: many other stories out here right now.
Speaker 8: It's not documented. It's not been.
Speaker 9: Recorded except for in James Mooney's book that one story
Speaker 9: that we've found. But now there's also lots of other theories.
Speaker 9: The challenge we have there's a lot of different riches,
Speaker 9: a lot of different natural beatings, like the little suits
Speaker 9: those folks, so that's one of folks.
Speaker 3: Will end tell them where the best place for them
Speaker 3: to go pick them up?
Speaker 9: Yeah, they can all be found on Amazon under my
Speaker 9: author title They're running out Explicive with Amazon.
Speaker 3: That's excellent. I will make it easy for everybody. I
Speaker 3: will put the link right there in the show notes.
Speaker 3: All you got to do is click it and go
Speaker 3: pick up all five books, Read every single one of them.
Speaker 4: Take it all in. Paul, Thank you so much for.
Speaker 3: Coming on the show and tell them this year experiences
Speaker 3: and talking about the books and all of your vast knowledge.
Speaker 4: Man, I've had a blast talking to you.
Speaker 9: Thank you so much for having me on, Brian, It's
Speaker 9: been a real pleasure. Thank you so much. They say
Speaker 9: you don't gotta go home, but you can't.
Speaker 3: Stay, and I don't want to be.
Speaker 9: We're happen.
Speaker 1: Chop this job chart everything back.
Speaker 4: Joy for me, Joy, stay right.
Speaker 1: Away, baby Baby Cancers, Inside and State consist, Side Still
Speaker 1: Stateside sass Inside Inside and Stay in State stills.
Speaker 7: Its fast, Stay
Speaker 1: Plays and PSST State as nsists ins insist