Speaker 1: What's up, everybody. This is Scott Jeger here with a
Speaker 1: very special crossover edition of Challenge Mania and Survivor Mania
Speaker 1: coming to you live from our apartment. Just kidding. We
Speaker 1: have a very special guest here today. He is the
Speaker 1: author of the New York Times bestseller The Tribe and
Speaker 1: I Have Spoken, which I was privileged to be a
Speaker 1: small part of. But he is a massive part of
Speaker 1: everything we do at Challenge Mania. He's a massive part
Speaker 1: of the Survivor world, the reality TV world. We're so
Speaker 1: glad to be joined here in person, Lindsey and myself
Speaker 1: with Rob Sister Nino. How are you?
Speaker 2: Wow?
Speaker 3: Thank you so much. That was very Jonathan like, be
Speaker 3: mister yes.
Speaker 2: Yes, mister Rob, Uncle Rob.
Speaker 3: Yes.
Speaker 4: Scott gets a little jealous sometimes because I am probably
Speaker 4: a bigger fan of your podcast than I am.
Speaker 1: You mean you listen to him.
Speaker 2: He'll be like, did you hear my podcast this week?
Speaker 4: And I'm like, no, but let me tell you what
Speaker 4: Rob said this week. So it was an honor to
Speaker 4: be asked to be here with you today.
Speaker 3: Yes, well, so nice to be here. Thank you for listening.
Speaker 3: And if it's any consolation, my wife listens to very
Speaker 3: few of my podcasts.
Speaker 2: Oh, I think she's a huge challenge mania.
Speaker 3: You know what she might be. She might love it.
Speaker 1: Can I be honest though, I'm not gonna I'm not
Speaker 1: gonna lie. It is a little bit more liberating that
Speaker 1: you don't listen as much as you used to. In fact,
Speaker 1: sometimes when you're home and you can hear me from
Speaker 1: the other room and you don't even know the other
Speaker 1: side of the conversation, you'll be like, can you say that?
Speaker 1: Or what were you saying about? What's her name?
Speaker 3: And I have to yeah, yeah, So I do get
Speaker 3: busted sometimes when my wife hears me to tell a
Speaker 3: story on the podcast, and you know, that's fear game
Speaker 3: if she's listening. I don't like is when people nark
Speaker 3: on this, oh and tell my wife listen to an
Speaker 3: episode of the podcast where I tell a true story
Speaker 3: and my wife didn't want me to tell that story.
Speaker 3: I'm not gonna say that. I'm like saying something out
Speaker 3: of school like things These things happen.
Speaker 2: Right who owns the story?
Speaker 3: But apparently we have like an NDA in our marriage.
Speaker 3: I didn't know about that.
Speaker 4: Do you have it with us? When we podcast together?
Speaker 4: I sometimes have notes after the podcast about.
Speaker 1: Oh does she ever give you notes?
Speaker 2: Do you when you two?
Speaker 4: Because I know you and Nicole podcast together sometimes do
Speaker 4: you get a little bit of feedback afterwards?
Speaker 3: Sometimes sometimes yes, yes, I am on the receiving end
Speaker 3: of feedback. I'm not really supposed to give feedback.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, of course. Yeah. So you know she mentioned
Speaker 1: you and Nicole still podcasts about Survivor quite frequently. I
Speaker 1: feel like I can still kind of hear the joy
Speaker 1: in her and her voice talking about that show that
Speaker 1: joy is pretty much gone when it comes to the
Speaker 1: challenge with you, you are like too close to it.
Speaker 1: These are people who take me away from you a
Speaker 1: couple of times a month, you know, So what what's
Speaker 1: the key to? Obviously it's such a big part of
Speaker 1: your world now.
Speaker 3: I wasn't sure if you were being sarcastic when you
Speaker 3: talked about how you felt like that you could hear
Speaker 3: the joy and a joy talking about Survivor well once
Speaker 3: in a while. But I find that most of our
Speaker 3: podcasting is about things other than like I have to
Speaker 3: tailor those podcasts too. What's going to be interesting for
Speaker 3: her to talk about more so than let me get
Speaker 3: your take on the most recent Survivor episode.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, speaking of the most recent Survivor season, this
Speaker 1: was such a huge year for you. Obviously, you get
Speaker 1: to be on Traders, your book just came out as
Speaker 1: I met here the tribe, and I've spoken to here
Speaker 1: live and in person. Maybe some other fun things coming
Speaker 1: later this year that we won't talk about quite yet,
Speaker 1: but very cool stuff on the horizon. And then Survivor,
Speaker 1: like you know, such a big year first Survivor. Let's
Speaker 1: start with fifty because it's top of mind all right.
Speaker 1: Overall thoughts on the season, I mean, couldn't have been
Speaker 1: more hype, couldn't have been more stuff? And the company,
Speaker 1: you know, you did try becka film festival, you were
Speaker 1: on tour, You're doing the book stuff and whatnot. Now
Speaker 1: that we have our winner, Aubrey Broco, did the season
Speaker 1: live up to the hype? And what did you think
Speaker 1: about it?
Speaker 3: I think it would be hard to live up to
Speaker 3: the hype. I think that the good and what I
Speaker 3: would say is the thing that I really loved about
Speaker 3: Smar fifty is that people were invested in, people cared,
Speaker 3: and so there was an excitement around Survivor that I
Speaker 3: have not felt in quite some time. During Smarmber forty nine.
Speaker 3: I felt like that the fandom, with all due respect,
Speaker 3: was largely dead and checked out on season forty nine.
Speaker 3: And it doesn't have as much to do with the
Speaker 3: people that were actually on the show, but there was
Speaker 3: just nothing to be excited about with season forty nine.
Speaker 3: Everybody was looking ahead to season fifty, and so while
Speaker 3: season fifty I feel like was imperfect in a lot
Speaker 3: of ways that we were excited, like there was a
Speaker 3: reason to watch the show every Wednesday night, and so
Speaker 3: I think that it was kind of like a Berserko
Speaker 3: mode in terms of like, wait, what's happening?
Speaker 1: But we cared, Yeah, do you have anything on fifty?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean we were talking about this.
Speaker 4: I think obviously you know, you were one of the
Speaker 4: people that was in contention for season fifty. Selfishly, I
Speaker 4: would have loved it so much.
Speaker 3: Do you beg you yeah?
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker 4: Do you look back on this year and all that's
Speaker 4: happened and feel like things in some ways worked out
Speaker 4: for a reason?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think things worked out really well where I
Speaker 3: don't think it would have gone particularly great on season fifty.
Speaker 3: For me, I think I would have been sort of like, oh,
Speaker 3: he knows, everybody. I think it would have been an
Speaker 3: easy an easy person to agree on. So I think
Speaker 3: if I made it to the end of the pre merge,
Speaker 3: that probably would have been a pretty good showing for me.
Speaker 3: And so it didn't work out with Survivor, I got
Speaker 3: to go do the Traders. Didn't know it didn't work
Speaker 3: out great on the Traders, but it was definitely a
Speaker 3: really good experience and I feel like that, even though
Speaker 3: my time was short, I felt like that I came
Speaker 3: off looking okay, yes on the Traders, and I feel
Speaker 3: like that that opened a lot of doors and I
Speaker 3: got the podcast all about the Traders. And the thing is,
Speaker 3: if I had done Survivor, they wouldn't have let me
Speaker 3: do the podcast about Survivors. So I feel like I
Speaker 3: really got to like have my cake and eat too
Speaker 3: in a lot.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and from a business standpoint, you're probably introduced to
Speaker 4: a whole new fan base of people.
Speaker 3: And with everybody being so excited about Survivor fifty, I
Speaker 3: would have felt like that it was a missed opportunity
Speaker 3: to not have been able to podcast fifty.
Speaker 1: I mean, look, that's my inside baseball question because as
Speaker 1: someone knew, I mean, look, I've never even been invited
Speaker 1: to be on any of these shows, so it doesn't matter.
Speaker 1: But my co host very much is still on the Challenge,
Speaker 1: and you know, we're blessed that they let him podcast,
Speaker 1: not just about seasons he's not on, but seasons that
Speaker 1: he is on. They are fairly loosey goosey about letting
Speaker 1: their cast members do interviews, and we are also good
Speaker 1: about making sure we don't do anything that puts the
Speaker 1: kibosh on that. Yeah, Survive is very strict about that.
Speaker 1: Traders obviously was so nice to let you. You know,
Speaker 1: the silver lining of you getting out so early was
Speaker 1: you got to podcast about the entire season, but with
Speaker 1: the added benefit of having been there playing with these
Speaker 1: people weeks prior. So I'd love to know that that
Speaker 1: conversation with the Traders, I think they are so ahead
Speaker 1: of the game when it comes to not taking this
Speaker 1: stuff as seriously. They leaked their own cast the minute
Speaker 1: they're on that flight to Scotland. They don't let the
Speaker 1: spoiler accounts have it and stuff like this, letting you
Speaker 1: podcast about it so openly and whatnot, letting their cast
Speaker 1: members do longer interviews and things like that. Was it
Speaker 1: an easy conversation with them to let you just you know,
Speaker 1: pick up the podcast Mike right away.
Speaker 3: So the thing that I had in my favor is
Speaker 3: that I had already been podcasting about the show, and
Speaker 3: so they knew that I was a professional and that
Speaker 3: I wasn't going to be talking out of school and
Speaker 3: I was somebody who was going to like take this
Speaker 3: very responsibly. I think that there were other podcasts that
Speaker 3: were happening that they were not happy with and maybe
Speaker 3: might have not wanted to have happened because I had
Speaker 3: in my experience, I feel like that the not everybody
Speaker 3: understands what's the spoiler and what you're doing that is spoilery.
Speaker 3: And I really take a lot of pride in I
Speaker 3: don't think I gave anything away on podcasting about The Traders,
Speaker 3: and I really thought I was up for the challenge.
Speaker 3: And the way I think you have to do it
Speaker 3: is you can't talk about what's going to happen. You
Speaker 3: could just talk about like, what did happen? And that's
Speaker 3: really how I tried to approach talking about season four
Speaker 3: of The Traders.
Speaker 1: And they even let you do the exit interviews, yeah
Speaker 1: as a cast member, which to me, I thought the
Speaker 1: one if I was playing Devil's advocate, Well, save some
Speaker 1: of that for the reunion. Let's hear it. Let them
Speaker 1: talk to the Mike Blooms of the world. But you know,
Speaker 1: for you to be able to confront the person who
Speaker 1: caught you out with the Congo line or whatever it is, like,
Speaker 1: let's save that from mister Cohen. You know. So I
Speaker 1: just thought, I mean again, to be ahead of the curve.
Speaker 1: I thought it was great. I thought benefited them. More
Speaker 1: coverage is good coverage and things like that. And the
Speaker 1: fact that simultaneously they had started their own official I
Speaker 1: love the I love they always have to let everyone
Speaker 1: know it's the official. This the official that you know,
Speaker 1: Jeff Probe says, the only official Survivor podcast, of course,
Speaker 1: not the one that's been going on for fifteen years,
Speaker 1: and that everybody knows and loves this brand new and that.
Speaker 3: This is the official, unofficial podcast. So I think that
Speaker 3: there is a freedom in being an unofficial podcast that
Speaker 3: is not the you know, company line of You could
Speaker 3: say things that, Okay, we love this, but we didn't
Speaker 3: love this in a way that you can't do if
Speaker 3: you are the official podcaste.
Speaker 4: That was something we talked about though, with whether if
Speaker 4: you had done fifty, how the press would have been handled.
Speaker 4: So it's we have our answer, which I would.
Speaker 3: Not have done my first Survivor podcast perhaps very recently. Yeah,
Speaker 3: if that was I was on.
Speaker 1: Did the conver like so I know, like, you know,
Speaker 1: you mentioned you had gotten those initial calls and uh,
Speaker 1: you know, we've heard from other cast members who have
Speaker 1: been kind of strung along and cut last minute things
Speaker 1: like that, you know, and obviously I don't know if
Speaker 1: I speak for you, but you probably don't want to
Speaker 1: load your first conversation up with all these demands and
Speaker 1: can I do this in the podcast? But did the
Speaker 1: conversations get that far where you at least kick the
Speaker 1: tires on what you'd be.
Speaker 3: Able to know? It never did. And I had some
Speaker 3: good advice, and I had asked, like, no, no, it's
Speaker 3: not out of but as somebody who I you know,
Speaker 3: advises me on a lot of like Robinson podcast business affairs,
Speaker 3: and I'd asked, well, like what do I do? And
Speaker 3: they said, you know what, let's get on the show
Speaker 3: and then we'll have that conversation. And so it just
Speaker 3: never got that.
Speaker 1: In their defense, like I literally like so when Derek
Speaker 1: got back on Challenged All Stars was the first season
Speaker 1: since we started Challenge Mania, and the twenty page contract
Speaker 1: he signed had been updated since they had last been on,
Speaker 1: where it said you have to get every single interview
Speaker 1: or podcast appearance approved, including your own right. So now
Speaker 1: they know cast members do their own thing, their own
Speaker 1: social media, and so we were again fear of God
Speaker 1: and us like thinking, oh my God, now they legally
Speaker 1: have the right to do and they never did. So,
Speaker 1: you know, the whole asking, you know, forgiveness, not permission
Speaker 1: podcast no, but had we gone out of our way
Speaker 1: to ask for special treatment on the front end, they
Speaker 1: probably would have been like, can we give this one
Speaker 1: cast member now? But we just did it. We did
Speaker 1: a good job with it. We didn't spoil anything, things
Speaker 1: like that.
Speaker 3: And in defense of Survivor that they're not worried about
Speaker 3: the podcasting. You know, they're looking to put the best
Speaker 3: cast onto the show that they can and so I
Speaker 3: totally I don't begrudge them for not caring about what's
Speaker 3: going to happen with Roberts's podcast. They're looking to put
Speaker 3: the best Survivor season, and they're talking to me as
Speaker 3: a survivor player, not as a person who has a podcast,
Speaker 3: and so I did not have any issue with that,
Speaker 3: like that not being a concern for them. I think ultimately,
Speaker 3: in some ways, I think it kind of was that
Speaker 3: they were like, that's.
Speaker 1: Why perhaps remember Jeff and I was shocked by this,
Speaker 1: did not do the on Fire Podcast for this season,
Speaker 1: which I got to know, do you have any conspiracy
Speaker 1: theories for the real reason why he claims it was
Speaker 1: that I believe he said he wanted to save it
Speaker 1: all for the live reunion, which he did not save
Speaker 1: a single thing for.
Speaker 3: No, we didn't really talk about it anything. Yeah, I
Speaker 3: think that there was some negative press that came out
Speaker 3: of the last season of the on Fire Podcast Australia,
Speaker 3: the discussion of Parverty's win is it a half season
Speaker 3: Australian Survivor, And so I think that for Jeff, who's
Speaker 3: very busy, very financially successful, what's the upside for Jeff?
Speaker 3: I think that he wanted to do the podcast because
Speaker 3: it's like, I have all these things I want to
Speaker 3: say about the episodes, and I want to get this
Speaker 3: off my chest, and really it's time commitment. I'm sure
Speaker 3: that there is income that comes from it. But probably
Speaker 3: not consequential income.
Speaker 1: But the game yeah right, they don't do video like
Speaker 1: there's a you know, but yeah.
Speaker 3: But like I don't like if it's on his I
Speaker 3: would imagine that maybe the income that he could be
Speaker 3: making for that is maybe in a five figure income
Speaker 3: and so and when you have other seven figure incomes,
Speaker 3: like it's like, why am I doing this? Because you
Speaker 3: don't he doesn't have to do a podcast about Survivor.
Speaker 3: He could just let Survivor speak for itself as other
Speaker 3: people who do a podcast. So if he's not getting
Speaker 3: joy from it and put people and people are jumping
Speaker 3: on the things that he's saying, and and there's and
Speaker 3: there's bad press around it, Like I understand why he
Speaker 3: might say, like, what am I doing this for?
Speaker 4: It?
Speaker 2: Is it coming back? You think?
Speaker 1: I don't think so. I'd be surprised. And and here's
Speaker 1: the other thing. I don't know what decision came first,
Speaker 1: But if we're not having the official one, are we
Speaker 1: really going to also cut the head off the unofficial
Speaker 1: for our biggest season? Maybe they go, can we really
Speaker 1: not have Jeff out there and not have rob podcasts?
Speaker 3: Well, I don't think that the two things were intertwined
Speaker 3: because they had already not picked me for Curviber or
Speaker 3: fifty and they did the podcast for season forty nine, right,
Speaker 3: I don't think that there was any those two things
Speaker 3: I think were unrelated.
Speaker 1: So speaking of like bad press and things like that,
Speaker 1: and again to talk about them kind of being behind
Speaker 1: the curve, like to say that, like that that viral
Speaker 1: moment where it was him or Jeremy kind of you know,
Speaker 1: thrown a little bit of shade apart. That's probably the
Speaker 1: most anybody talked about that podcast that season, and there
Speaker 1: is I think when it comes to clicks and views,
Speaker 1: a little bit of an all press is good press.
Speaker 1: At the finale, which you were at, Jeff has the
Speaker 1: flub of all flubs. He spoils not like anyone really
Speaker 1: thought Rizzo had a chance of beating Jonathan and Fire,
Speaker 1: but his whole family has to find out via you know,
Speaker 1: jump in two segments ahead flub that Rizzo had lost.
Speaker 1: Everyone handles it really reasonably well, including Jeff, who covers
Speaker 1: for it nicely, starts making a bunch of jokes about it.
Speaker 1: Sure they for whatever reason decided to leave it in
Speaker 1: every subsequent so like you know, the West Coast did
Speaker 1: not have to have that road. Neither did the person
Speaker 1: who watched up Paramount Plus the next morning. But I digress.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we just assumed our friends didn't see it. We
Speaker 2: were like, oh, we won't tell them on the West Side.
Speaker 1: So bad. But the next day I had dozens of
Speaker 1: people who do not even watch Survivor never mentioned Aubrey once,
Speaker 1: but they wanted to talk about this flub. And I
Speaker 1: just think, you know, somebody's been covering the show for
Speaker 1: so long, is there something great about a viral moment
Speaker 1: like that, something you could never script or come up
Speaker 1: with that just you know, breaks through the zeitgeist. We've
Speaker 1: done fifty seasons of this show, so like Game, so
Speaker 1: few Game moments are ever going to do that, and
Speaker 1: this moment did.
Speaker 3: You can't plan for something like this, and so it
Speaker 3: was a WTF moment where that's so few things are
Speaker 3: live on television, and so when you have a live
Speaker 3: TV moment, I think that that's something that can break through.
Speaker 3: I think it was a good human moment for Jeff,
Speaker 3: who I think often is at his best when he's
Speaker 3: reacting to something that isn't planned. I think that where
Speaker 3: you sort of roll your eyes sometimes where Jeff has
Speaker 3: like a scripted, canned thing that he wants to hit,
Speaker 3: but when he's just reacting to the events that are
Speaker 3: occurring at that moment, that's where you know he is
Speaker 3: really just the best at this. And so I think
Speaker 3: it was ultimately a cool thing that happened, and probably
Speaker 3: maybe between that and the Mister Beasts coin, the most
Speaker 3: memorable thing from season fifty.
Speaker 4: Now we have to we have to talk about your
Speaker 4: book a little bit. We're really excited that Scott had
Speaker 4: a little appearance in it because for me, he knew
Speaker 4: that was how he could impress me, is be in
Speaker 4: your book, Yes, by name.
Speaker 3: And really credit Stephen Fishback.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well I.
Speaker 4: Was wondering did you even I mean, this was Stephen,
Speaker 4: Where did you even? Were you aware that Scott was.
Speaker 3: A lot of people disclosure.
Speaker 1: I think he reached out to like anyone he thought
Speaker 1: to provide a good quote.
Speaker 3: We had been thinking about like who could write the
Speaker 3: forward for the book, and very quickly arrived on like,
Speaker 3: the only logical person is Stephen. And so Stephen on
Speaker 3: his own worked on this beautiful forward in the book.
Speaker 3: And so I was not aware of what Stephen was
Speaker 3: putting together for the forward of the book, had you known?
Speaker 2: No, just kidding?
Speaker 1: Well, no, he said so funny DM me and I
Speaker 1: was and or text me whatever he did, and I
Speaker 1: was like on a flight. I was like two bloody
Speaker 1: Mary's deep. I was couldn't have been more honored. And
Speaker 1: I wrote him like an essay, you know, any whole
Speaker 1: and he and he chose I think a great sentiment,
Speaker 1: which is the irony of It's called Rob has a podcast,
Speaker 1: but it's become so much more than that, and that
Speaker 1: you've laid the blueprint for how to you know, create
Speaker 1: a reality super fandom that's more than just audio or
Speaker 1: video product, a community at et cetera, et cetera. So
Speaker 1: and speaking as somebody who stole the entire model, you know,
Speaker 1: I think you know, but uh but no, I was.
Speaker 1: And I didn't even know that he had chosen me
Speaker 1: until I was talking to Rob on the phone about
Speaker 1: something else and like off handedly mentioned it and I
Speaker 1: think I maybe Rob could tell I don't think he
Speaker 1: knows he's in it. And so then he sent me
Speaker 1: the advanced copy and I found out that I was
Speaker 1: in it.
Speaker 3: So it's great.
Speaker 4: I saw your Instagram story a few days ago where
Speaker 4: you were Anna Barnes and Noble buying your own book
Speaker 4: because you didn't have one any did one for not
Speaker 4: for our podcast, but.
Speaker 3: I have many at my house. I did not have boxes.
Speaker 4: Yeah, now I was very impressed. You said that the
Speaker 4: cashier did not recognize you. You weren't a little See
Speaker 4: you're a better person than me. I would have had
Speaker 4: to have said something to them.
Speaker 3: I would never assume that anybody recognizes me from reality
Speaker 3: TV or the podcast. But there is a picture of
Speaker 3: me on the front of the book, and I did
Speaker 3: think that there was some comedy in me going.
Speaker 1: You're probably similar.
Speaker 3: To the man at the checkout to see if you like,
Speaker 3: hold on? Is this like to do a double take?
Speaker 3: He did? He I think he was kind of in
Speaker 3: his own world.
Speaker 5: We're in a little tempted to Hey, at least I'd
Speaker 5: like walk around Barnes Enable Barnes and Noble holding it out.
Speaker 2: And just just just for the random I.
Speaker 3: Had somebody filming me to get like reactions or double takes.
Speaker 3: I think that that would have been a fun bit.
Speaker 2: But you should do that and that'll be our Yeah.
Speaker 1: Well, like you know, she mentioned the book. The book
Speaker 1: is such a great sort of history of Survivor, but
Speaker 1: that ties in obviously your role as a two time player,
Speaker 1: but also just like the voice of the super fans,
Speaker 1: and I think you have like such a unique like
Speaker 1: every week you are in essence talking to and getting
Speaker 1: such a focus group of every single thing that's happened
Speaker 1: on the show. You you wrote something about every cast
Speaker 1: member that's ever been on the show, Yes, which I
Speaker 1: think is so noble because, let's be honest, with a
Speaker 1: lot of first boots. And if you've ever been to
Speaker 1: the formerly known as Hearts of Reality which is now
Speaker 1: called Celebrity Weekend in Florida, and you will talk to
Speaker 1: somebody for thirty minutes before realize you talked about recognizing
Speaker 1: somebody at Barnes and Noble before you realize that they
Speaker 1: were on Survivor, and they have to remind you, you know,
Speaker 1: I was third out on ko wrong or whatever it is.
Speaker 1: I say that that the Celebrity Weekend has more first
Speaker 1: boots than a kid's section at a Timbaland store. But
Speaker 1: so I mean doing that was it hard to have?
Speaker 1: Like don't have to name any names because we don't
Speaker 1: want to embarrass anybody. How many you've done so many
Speaker 1: We've done a lot of rewatches for the podcast, so
Speaker 1: the top of mind more for you than the average
Speaker 1: we were. But how many people did you really have
Speaker 1: to refamiliarize yourself with?
Speaker 3: No, not many. I think that it was harder. And
Speaker 3: what I did was a pre order digital bonus chapter
Speaker 3: for people who did the pre orders for the book,
Speaker 3: of one thing about every single person whoever played So
Speaker 3: seven hundred and fifty one people have played Survivor in
Speaker 3: the US, and so I tried to have our fallen
Speaker 3: comrades of like the rights of passage, of like one
Speaker 3: thing to say about each person. So I think that
Speaker 3: a lot of the first boots, like it's easier to do,
Speaker 3: like how do you say one thing about poverty? How
Speaker 3: do you say one thing about Boston rob and you
Speaker 3: say one thing about sore? So I think when there
Speaker 3: were a million things to pull from that, how do
Speaker 3: you how do you distill it down to you know,
Speaker 3: a couple of sentences. Whereas the person who is like
Speaker 3: any you know, random first boot, it's like they like,
Speaker 3: you remember the one thing.
Speaker 1: Better than the third. You know, It's almost like right,
Speaker 1: It's like they say in wrestling, if you're not in
Speaker 1: the main event. You want to be in the first match,
Speaker 1: because nobody remembers the second through the seventh matches. It's
Speaker 1: kind of the you know, like the Academy Awards. You
Speaker 1: remember who wins Best Supporting Actors because they do it first,
Speaker 1: and then everything in the middle you're kind of like,
Speaker 1: you know, eating the cheese plate. Let's talk about the
Speaker 1: winner really quick. So Aubrey ends up being the winner
Speaker 1: multi time returning player, I think, a great you know,
Speaker 1: recipient and someone who's going to now represents the virivor fifty.
Speaker 1: I wonder how much of that kind of went in
Speaker 1: to her winning. And I had a theory that I
Speaker 1: thought that this season just based on the fact that
Speaker 1: they had so many New Era people coupled with a
Speaker 1: lot of like veteran returning favorites, that whoever the last
Speaker 1: returney or og standing was going to win this show.
Speaker 1: Do you see a scenario in which someone could have
Speaker 1: someone from the New Era could have played a good
Speaker 1: enough game to beat whether it's Aubrey Assy or say
Speaker 1: fill in the blank, somebody who it's like, hey, big
Speaker 1: target on him from the front. They get to the end,
Speaker 1: and is it possible somebody could have outplayed that well.
Speaker 3: I don't think that it's we could say that any
Speaker 3: old era player or would have beaten any new era player,
Speaker 3: because I think if Tiffany got to the end, I
Speaker 3: think even Tiffany would have beaten Aubrey. I think that
Speaker 3: somebody who had that right underdog story rising. I think
Speaker 3: that Tiffany even had a better underdog story because I
Speaker 3: think that she went from at the merge as she
Speaker 3: was clearly on the bottom, and then she had this
Speaker 3: really great story of winning a bunch of challenges and
Speaker 3: everybody could really respect that, and she had some real
Speaker 3: advocates on the jury, So I think that people might
Speaker 3: have also seen it as like a proxy win for
Speaker 3: Sari if Tiffany ultimately got to the end. So I
Speaker 3: think Tiffany actually beats Aubrey, and I think Aubrey very
Speaker 3: keenly was aware of that and pushed for Tiffany to
Speaker 3: go out at the final five when she did. But
Speaker 3: I do think that there is some merit to what
Speaker 3: you're saying about the people who had a legacy, and
Speaker 3: not just a legacy, but had the respect of their
Speaker 3: peers to get to the end and would have had
Speaker 3: a really strong case. I don't know, if necessarily Emily
Speaker 3: wins against any combination of people from the new era,
Speaker 3: I'm sorry, and she's new era, she's new. I'm trying
Speaker 3: to think of other people that maybe Stephanie Christy and Stephanie. Yeah,
Speaker 3: they certainly they had their base, but they so.
Speaker 1: Much of Aubrey's like final travel story and also just
Speaker 1: was about her previous seasons, which I think it's like such.
Speaker 2: A happy the point was of what she had learned.
Speaker 4: I mean, so much of winning the Survivor is self awareness,
Speaker 4: right in that in that final.
Speaker 1: The twenty people on the show, all of them watched
Speaker 1: probably every one of Aubrey's seasons, probably a couple of
Speaker 1: them multiple times, whereas, like, let's be honest, a couple
Speaker 1: of them maybe you know, did a crash course on
Speaker 1: tiffany season or Jonathan season or nobody had seen Rizzo's season.
Speaker 1: That I think that redemption arc. I mean, I thought
Speaker 1: Jonathan could have probably played as good of a game
Speaker 1: as you I mean, do you think there's that what
Speaker 1: could Jonathan have done better? And you know, I'm okay
Speaker 1: with Aubrey having one, but I thought that, like you know,
Speaker 1: talk about someone who bettered their game and improved themselves,
Speaker 1: whether it's the fire, the social game, etc.
Speaker 4: It's the story telling too. So Abrey told the story
Speaker 4: of what she learned and how she was self aware
Speaker 4: of what she needed to do.
Speaker 3: And Yeah, I think Jonathan did a lot of things well,
Speaker 3: but I think that there was also a lot of
Speaker 3: votes where Jonathan didn't necessarily know what was going on
Speaker 3: got blindsided a few times. I recently spoke with Rizzo,
Speaker 3: and he was somebody who I look at him as
Speaker 3: like the most independent voter in the jury, because even
Speaker 3: Rick and Christian and Emily, who they were also sort
Speaker 3: of swing voters, I felt like they're kind of like
Speaker 3: a voting block where I think that Rizzo came out
Speaker 3: and he was the one who was really just I thought,
Speaker 3: totally independent, and he was an Aubrey voter. And I
Speaker 3: had asked him about his vote, and he felt like
Speaker 3: that there were things that Jonathan did not always know
Speaker 3: what was going on strategically. He he talked about the
Speaker 3: vote on the Powerbroker vote that he really thought that
Speaker 3: Jonathan did not do a good job on getting Emily
Speaker 3: Flippin out in the and and we're all talking about
Speaker 3: the Ozzie part of that vote, but he said, why
Speaker 3: did you work with SuRie on that vote? Like instead
Speaker 3: like you could have taken Surrie out in the first
Speaker 3: part of the power Broker, Like why were you doing
Speaker 3: Siree's bidding in the first part of that power Broker?
Speaker 3: Which I thought that was interesting. I hadn't heard anybody
Speaker 3: talk about that, and so I think that that ultimately
Speaker 3: comes down to I don't think that Aubrey was blindsided
Speaker 3: on any of the votes. I think Aubrey always knew
Speaker 3: what was happening, and so she also has that great
Speaker 3: respect of everybody. She wins that final challenge and ultimately
Speaker 3: you know, here she is the winners of five fifteen.
Speaker 4: And I think if you look at the cast before
Speaker 4: the season was played of who is going to be
Speaker 4: looked at as the top strategists, the top people that
Speaker 4: you're going to be scared are going to outwit you. There,
Speaker 4: I mean Aubrey's on that list. So she she she
Speaker 4: played the game in the way that she had to
Speaker 4: in order to get rid of that sort of idea
Speaker 4: of herself coming up.
Speaker 1: I just think being a familiar favorite and making it
Speaker 1: to the end has has sort of supplemented and replaced
Speaker 1: being the immunity threat that makes it to the end
Speaker 1: like it always used to be. If Jonathan gets to
Speaker 1: the end, he's gonna win, or if a Joe gets
Speaker 1: to the end, he's gonna win. That's almost gone completely.
Speaker 4: Right sometays they have to work harder and well.
Speaker 1: Right or is there a man, is there an amount
Speaker 1: of hard they could work to where you see that
Speaker 1: as being a bigger deal than you let the four
Speaker 1: time player and familiar favorite get to the end? Because
Speaker 1: I was so, let's say it's Rizzo, Joe, and Jonathan.
Speaker 1: Who wins that one? Do you think? So?
Speaker 3: That's the really interesting one. I think it's really a
Speaker 3: toss up between you know, flipp and mister Bee's coin
Speaker 3: of whether it was going to be Jonathan and whether
Speaker 3: it was going to be Rizzo. I've gone back and
Speaker 3: forth a couple of times on who I think ultimately
Speaker 3: would have win. I think that I probably would have
Speaker 3: said Jonathan originally, but then thinking about it, I thought
Speaker 3: that there was a chance in Rizzo. And then I've
Speaker 3: also heard that there were some people that felt like
Speaker 3: they were not going to vote for Rizzo under any
Speaker 3: circumstances to win the game. So I think that that
Speaker 3: would have been Jonathan's best bet. I think it really
Speaker 3: came down to Aubrey winning some emotion winning that Final
Speaker 3: four challenge, and I think it's, you know, such a
Speaker 3: big pop for the jury when you see that, Like
Speaker 3: you come in at the Final four and there's Aubrey
Speaker 3: wearing the immunity necklace and she beat Joe, one of
Speaker 3: the you know, winningest individual immunity competitors, and Jonathan, and
Speaker 3: so you you look at her like, Wow, I can't
Speaker 3: believe she's really doing it.
Speaker 1: And I justly, I mean real, we love we stan
Speaker 1: Rizzo in the Jeger.
Speaker 2: Household, my son's favorite person, rocks in love with him.
Speaker 1: But I just think, and I think, I mean in
Speaker 1: a world in which he played on season forty seven
Speaker 1: or forty six and people had at least seen his season, yeah,
Speaker 1: I think maybe he could run away with it had
Speaker 1: he made it to the end and one. But I
Speaker 1: think having the fact that nobody had seen his original season,
Speaker 1: I think, I think, I don't know if anyone had
Speaker 1: verbalize this, but I feel like people were gonna have
Speaker 1: a very hard time voting for a guy who they
Speaker 1: never even saw because they have no relationship to his
Speaker 1: first game, talk about having four relationships with Aubrey games
Speaker 1: and stuff like that, and connecting with players as a viewer.
Speaker 1: As far as a peer, you have no idea whether
Speaker 1: on his first season he said something that you would
Speaker 1: have disagreed with or played in a way that you
Speaker 1: totally would have hated. And obviously they have conversations on
Speaker 1: the beach and things like that. But to like, to me,
Speaker 1: I always thought everyone viewed Rizzo as the casting was
Speaker 1: the was the prize for him, right, And that's why
Speaker 1: I think everyone kind of let him get as far
Speaker 1: as they did. He was like the ultimate person to
Speaker 1: have sitting next to you based on age, even though
Speaker 1: he's older than he looks. But like the fact that
Speaker 1: he even got to play again sight unseen, he already
Speaker 1: kind of is playing with house money.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I think like the win for Aubrey proves
Speaker 4: that there was a little bit on people's mind of
Speaker 4: this is you know that the entire journey, you know,
Speaker 4: this entire survivor journey on the line here rather than
Speaker 4: just this one.
Speaker 1: It's literally season we're talking about season fifty and person
Speaker 1: played four times or a guy who just like literally
Speaker 1: it's season two for him, right where we were. If
Speaker 1: you just watch, if you started watching Survivor recently, so
Speaker 1: so funny, we joke. My son's seven years old. He's
Speaker 1: gotten two Rizzo seasons, a Knicks championship, the you know,
Speaker 1: the Yankees have made the World series in his life
Speaker 1: where Jaguars are good, I mean, it's as bizarro world.
Speaker 1: I'm like, this is not how it's supposed to be
Speaker 1: off with the Jaguar. That's our one New York team.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah no. And you're a Jets fan,
Speaker 1: so you understand what it's like to have it and
Speaker 1: the JA. The Jaguars are not a storied franchise, but
Speaker 1: to my son, he's like, hey, thirteen wins last year.
Speaker 4: So, speaking of our son, Brock, our seven year old,
Speaker 4: I decided last week that I was going to binge
Speaker 4: watch the Amazon with Brock.
Speaker 3: Okay and my four year old daughter.
Speaker 4: Yes, now I know you first as a podcaster and
Speaker 4: second as.
Speaker 3: Had you seen it before?
Speaker 4: So I was a casual fan of Survivor for a
Speaker 4: long time until I was a little older, maybe you know, college,
Speaker 4: and so I think I had seen it or parts
Speaker 4: of it, but I didn't. It wasn't it wasn't Ludo
Speaker 4: into my mind, and so I chose. I thought he
Speaker 4: loves listening to you sometimes he falls asleep with me
Speaker 4: to your podcast, that he would love to see your
Speaker 4: your your season.
Speaker 2: I regret it.
Speaker 3: Are allowed to watch it?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Great, were older.
Speaker 4: I immediately regretted the decision. In fact, I have an idea
Speaker 4: for you for a podcast, which is to do the
Speaker 4: top five seasons that are the worst to watch with
Speaker 4: your young children, to rank, to rank which seasons have
Speaker 4: the most content that should not be seen by family friendly.
Speaker 3: Well, if I could give you some backstory, and uh,
Speaker 3: it was two thousand and two.
Speaker 1: Unity was big. Janet Jackson was doing the Super Bowl
Speaker 1: half people.
Speaker 3: We're going to see American Pie in the movie theater.
Speaker 3: I saw an article this morning that gen Z has
Speaker 3: watched that movie and they're like, wait what Yeah, And
Speaker 3: that was a little bit my kids had asked to watch.
Speaker 3: They said, Dad, did you ever win the Immunity Challenge?
Speaker 3: And I said, yes, yes I I I actually did.
Speaker 3: Let's pull up the Paramount plus and I put it
Speaker 3: on and the first thing they said was wait, hold on,
Speaker 3: it's a quiz, Like yes, I didn't make the questions
Speaker 3: that's what it is. It was a quiz like Big Brother.
Speaker 3: And then the first question that they asked like who
Speaker 3: in the tribe do you have a crush? Why are
Speaker 3: they talking about this?
Speaker 1: Uh?
Speaker 3: Yeah? And then they asked, who would you like to
Speaker 3: see pose nude in a magazine? Yes, and they were
Speaker 3: they were And they told my wife immediately, and she
Speaker 3: was incensed.
Speaker 1: We Hatch gets all the l you would think just
Speaker 1: that he's the only person who was never naked on
Speaker 1: the show. He's obviou people wonder is it that or
Speaker 1: what is it that's causing him to be kind of
Speaker 1: shunned by the By the show this point, now everyone was.
Speaker 1: It felt like back then there was a lot of nudity,
Speaker 1: it was not Hatch specific. I think the most recent
Speaker 1: per to go partially nude on camera, I forget she
Speaker 1: was in the season and thirties and she went only
Speaker 1: bottom liss. Do you remember this woman? It was what
Speaker 1: was it again? Charene? And I think that was probably
Speaker 1: the last one that I remember.
Speaker 4: Well.
Speaker 3: I think that there's like some not so fun reasons
Speaker 3: for that. I think that there was a time and
Speaker 3: a place where nudity was just like, hey, these people
Speaker 3: are surviving. These people are just trying to get by
Speaker 3: out there, and this is what happens, and we blur it.
Speaker 3: And I think that the show felt like that that
Speaker 3: was a feature, not a bug of Survivor. But I
Speaker 3: think that as Survivor has matured, I think that they
Speaker 3: were gotten out of the era of what if there
Speaker 3: was just in their underwear all the time? I think
Speaker 3: that they like that, but now I think that they
Speaker 3: want to give the contestants some modesty. I think that
Speaker 3: they feel like, in some ways Survivor is a workplace
Speaker 3: and they want to actually frown upon people being naked
Speaker 3: in front of the other contestants.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I mean I just with the suffering with like,
Speaker 4: like none of it's necessary to me.
Speaker 2: It's like not why I watch Survivor, you know, I
Speaker 2: watch it.
Speaker 3: For the srategy though.
Speaker 1: To go back, whether it's movies, reality TV, I love
Speaker 1: getting a snapshot because it reminds you that we're not
Speaker 1: like as a as a society, we like you said,
Speaker 1: mature things go out of style and I don't go
Speaker 1: back and watch this stuff and go, oh I should
Speaker 1: feel differently about that person. I go, I guess that's
Speaker 1: how it wasn't two thousand.
Speaker 4: But do you find for you, like as people like
Speaker 4: me who got to know you first as a podcaster
Speaker 4: and obviously like you know you you have a certain
Speaker 4: type of audience and you are very thoughtful about how
Speaker 4: you I mean, I love oh No, I loved you
Speaker 4: on the show, and I loved you in the podcast.
Speaker 4: But do you find that people view you differently whether
Speaker 4: they got to know you first as Rob the podcaster
Speaker 4: versus Rob the contestant.
Speaker 3: So I think that it could be jarring to go
Speaker 3: back and watch it in the order where you sort
Speaker 3: of know me now from the podcast, and then to
Speaker 3: go back and see what was going on then, And
Speaker 3: I would I would say that also there's like a
Speaker 3: passage of time. I'm also twenty three years older than
Speaker 3: I was then.
Speaker 4: I don't think you came across badly. I thought you
Speaker 4: were a great character. I thought you were very smart
Speaker 4: and fun and you know, all good things. It's just
Speaker 4: a different Rob than I'm used to listening for sure.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Well, I think it's so funny because between the book
Speaker 1: and Traders, I feel like in comingy of you disagree.
Speaker 1: But in the last year there's been a lot more
Speaker 1: like hyperbole about you as a player than usual because
Speaker 1: usually obviously it's a podcast and things like that, but
Speaker 1: going to play on Traders as a survivor rep right
Speaker 1: of course. And then you know, as Steven describes you
Speaker 1: in the book, and so much is about like, you know, best,
Speaker 1: one of the best players to ever win, one of
Speaker 1: the fort super fans this on and the other. And
Speaker 1: the thing that comes through watching you on the show
Speaker 1: that to me is that it's so funny is that
Speaker 1: you first and foremost seem like a twenty three year
Speaker 1: old single guy who's on an island with men and women,
Speaker 1: and and like seeing that snapshot of you, I think
Speaker 1: is so interesting because it's great that the things that
Speaker 1: followed you are like the social game, the strategy is
Speaker 1: best player everyone and none of that stuff because people
Speaker 1: having heard you every day on a podcast, you have like,
Speaker 1: like you said, matured and things like that, and that
Speaker 1: luckily that reputation didn't precede you.
Speaker 3: Well. It was a men versus women season and really
Speaker 3: my casting to get on one of the shows was
Speaker 3: I would talk about how like, hey, I live in
Speaker 3: my parents' basement. I can't get a date, and I'm
Speaker 3: hoping that if I go on one of these shows,
Speaker 3: then you know there's only going to be like eight
Speaker 3: guys there. So I have a decent shot to meet
Speaker 3: somebody if you put me on the show. And so
Speaker 3: that they were looking for that more so than hey, wow,
Speaker 3: this guy really knows his stuff when it comes to
Speaker 3: So that was my calling card to get onto Survivor,
Speaker 3: and it was certainly like what the producers were looking
Speaker 3: for in casting me on the show. All the rest
Speaker 3: of the stuff, I don't think that they necessarily knew
Speaker 3: that they were getting.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and well, and to go back to you being
Speaker 1: one of the first super fans, you know, it's kind
Speaker 1: of like because I would say the Challenge all these
Speaker 1: super fans want to be on the show, and I go,
Speaker 1: do not even tell me you like the show, because
Speaker 1: they don't want that. The Challenge wants it to feel
Speaker 1: like we are superheroes doing this cool thing that you
Speaker 1: guys watching cannot do. I think Big Brother is probably
Speaker 1: the first show to kind of embrace a superfan, but
Speaker 1: Survivor I think probably learn to embrace it because they
Speaker 1: cast some of you guys by accident right coorse through osmosis,
Speaker 1: you guys became more fans of the show by having
Speaker 1: played on it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I talk about in the book that really
Speaker 3: I think Cochran is the person that really broke the mold.
Speaker 3: Where Cochrane plays in season twenty three, he wins in
Speaker 3: season twenty six, and I think that they are going
Speaker 3: to then all through into the thirties be looking for
Speaker 3: more Cochrane types, who are people who really know the game,
Speaker 3: who are narrators, who can make metaphors at tribal Council,
Speaker 3: and to get to the point where Jeff takes over
Speaker 3: the casting by the end of the thirties and now
Speaker 3: we're in a point with Survivor it would be insane
Speaker 3: if you weren't a super fan to be on the show.
Speaker 3: Every single person who plays Survivor now it would be
Speaker 3: wild if that person they found a person who hasn't
Speaker 3: seen twenty seasons of the show, that they're all so
Speaker 3: in the weeds about everything, and so I think that
Speaker 3: you need a balance. I think that it would be good. Yeah,
Speaker 3: we've gone We've totally reversed it from where that we
Speaker 3: had an era of Survivor. We had macters and so
Speaker 3: it was like people who didn't even know what Survivor was,
Speaker 3: who were here to the point where they know everything,
Speaker 3: and they all play very similarly, a very conservative play
Speaker 3: style where they're just sort of like trying to stay
Speaker 3: out of being the main focus, where the tallest poppy
Speaker 3: gets picked off. And I think that that's really bled
Speaker 3: into the gameplay in the new era, and I think
Speaker 3: it's something that the show is really trying to wrestle with.
Speaker 1: I heard I forgot I was on your podcast or
Speaker 1: might have been Tyson to somebody who said if they
Speaker 1: could find a way to do a season where literally
Speaker 1: like almost do a jury duty style where you tell
Speaker 1: people that are you know, trying to get something on
Speaker 1: something else? But one of the throwaway questions is have
Speaker 1: you ever seen Survivor? And you only cast from the
Speaker 1: people who have literally never seen it. We somehow got
Speaker 1: that type of season. I don't know that we need
Speaker 1: to go that far, you know, but I think for
Speaker 1: super fans to be able to stand out, it can't
Speaker 1: be twenty of them, you know what I mean.
Speaker 4: Well, season they talk about Matthew talks about how you
Speaker 4: basically teach him the game as you're going, like he
Speaker 4: learns the game of Survivor from playing with.
Speaker 3: You, and he was somebody who was there for an
Speaker 3: adventure more so, and you would not have that anymore.
Speaker 3: In the modern day Survivor. People are there and they're
Speaker 3: looking for people who are there for the experience. But
Speaker 3: I think that the cost of admission is that you
Speaker 3: have to be a like, really a fanatical Survivor fan.
Speaker 4: So here's a casting question for you. So as an
Speaker 4: iconic rob who has played with another iconic rob several yes, yes,
Speaker 4: And I think you know, we just got done with
Speaker 4: forty nine where they're just a sofan a Sophie. Do
Speaker 4: you think that Survivor needs to diversify their name per
Speaker 4: season a little bit and not even one name for
Speaker 4: a season in general, Like should should they be casting
Speaker 4: like a Louisa? Because just because there hasn't been a
Speaker 4: Louisa on Survivor it.
Speaker 3: Is wild where you have they do two seasons a year,
Speaker 3: so it is crazy that they do ever put two
Speaker 3: people on the same season, so many names in the way,
Speaker 3: like with sof and with the two selfies, you know,
Speaker 3: I guess season fifty was coming up and me they
Speaker 3: felt like, okay, this is our last chance to be
Speaker 3: able to bring it, to bring the two selfies on.
Speaker 3: We don't want to wait till season fifty one, but
Speaker 3: you would think that they could wait.
Speaker 1: And they had to. I think self, SOPHI fi one
Speaker 1: of them yet season Like, I think that's when when
Speaker 1: you have people who we talk about all the time,
Speaker 1: whether the last name, is it like a badge of honor,
Speaker 1: like you know, like I believe Devon's famously asked to
Speaker 1: be can you call me devns, don't call me wreck?
Speaker 1: He kind of was was very forward with it. And
Speaker 1: then eventually as people played time and time again, you'll
Speaker 1: He'll throw in a HUBICKI, You'll throw in whatever. But
Speaker 1: I think, just what can one of them go by
Speaker 1: their middle name like a teacher on Facebook?
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I was mad when I remember when there
Speaker 4: was a Lindsay cast in the in the in the forties.
Speaker 4: I was like, oh, that means like my chances are
Speaker 4: like they've they've gone out and like and then like
Speaker 4: the next season there was a Lens again, and then
Speaker 4: and I realized, like, oh, it's it doesn't matter at
Speaker 4: all whether there's been someone by your name on the show.
Speaker 1: I wanted, this is Lindsay's least favorite subject when we
Speaker 1: do Survivor Mania. But I'm fascinated by it because I
Speaker 1: someone who is plugged into the Internet of the world.
Speaker 1: I love when there's a kind of a tail of
Speaker 1: two shows. Right. So the reason we had to kind
Speaker 1: we kind of fell off Big Brother is that I
Speaker 1: found the tail of two shows to be too different. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the show that CBS was showing you, and then you
Speaker 1: had the show that the live feed Internet wanted you
Speaker 1: to believe, which is that these people are terrible people
Speaker 1: and they're bullying and this and that whatever, and I
Speaker 1: but on the show, the guy's the hero whatever. And
Speaker 1: then that obviously came to a head when the guy
Speaker 1: won and Julie blindsided him about everyone thinking he was
Speaker 1: racist and he literally had no idea because he's been
Speaker 1: living in a fish bowl and nobody told him. With Survivor,
Speaker 1: I have found that obviously, you know it, it's hard
Speaker 1: to please everybody with casting decisions and things like that.
Speaker 1: Everybody hates Jeff now, fine. But the one thing I
Speaker 1: think that's definitely evolved is how a certain level of
Speaker 1: the Internet fandom are very passionate about people's real life
Speaker 1: politics and whether that prevents them from being able to
Speaker 1: root for them on the show. So it doesn't matter
Speaker 1: if you played a good game on the show. If
Speaker 1: people are able to google that you vote a Republican
Speaker 1: or something like that, they decide that A they don't
Speaker 1: like you, B they don't want to see you on
Speaker 1: the show, and this should in turn effect whether you
Speaker 1: can win the show. How do you feel about that?
Speaker 1: I feel like you obviously you do such a good
Speaker 1: job either you know, not touching on any of this
Speaker 1: stuff or.
Speaker 4: Not not talking about this, and we're going to force
Speaker 4: you to talk about Okay, yeah.
Speaker 1: But no, I'd love to know it. Do you have
Speaker 1: thoughts on it? Because again you do, you almost never
Speaker 1: share them. And I know that's because the next day
Speaker 1: you might be interviewing one of these people or things
Speaker 1: like that. And I know that your your listeners in particular,
Speaker 1: are you know, do skew? I think, you know, very
Speaker 1: liberal as we do. That's the other thing is like
Speaker 1: I'm not coming at it from some what one answer
Speaker 1: or the other. I just find it's like I would
Speaker 1: love to just be able to say that guy kicked
Speaker 1: ass on Survivor. And you know whether or not, I
Speaker 1: with every other thing he thinks about. Some of my
Speaker 1: favorite players from the past. Probably we disagree on almost
Speaker 1: every other thing. You know.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a good question. And of course, you know,
Speaker 3: politics affects every aspect of our lives. And I think
Speaker 3: that what I try to do in terms of bringing
Speaker 3: people together is I feel like that as soon as
Speaker 3: you start to get into this year're going to lose
Speaker 3: some people and other people are like, can I get
Speaker 3: a break from this? It's so everywhere? And I also
Speaker 3: respect beinion. Hey, that's a very privileged take to not like,
Speaker 3: my whole life is politics, you know, and that must
Speaker 3: be nice for you to not have to talk about
Speaker 3: this all the time. But I think that what people
Speaker 3: come to us for that there's so much of that
Speaker 3: that's out there. I think people are looking to us
Speaker 3: to break down the game, talk about what's happening, and
Speaker 3: they're certainly like in season fifty, you know, it certainly
Speaker 3: was talked about where there were some players that had
Speaker 3: a alliance that might have been somewhat politically.
Speaker 1: You know, we're cut from the same cloth.
Speaker 3: Cut from the same cloth, is like, there's an interpretation
Speaker 3: of that, and so people don't obviously like that. But
Speaker 3: I feel like that when you are out there, I
Speaker 3: don't think that politics is a big topic of conversation
Speaker 3: amongst the players, maybe like the most the people who
Speaker 3: are maybe the least self aware might be talking about
Speaker 3: politics that are out there. But I think that the
Speaker 3: people who go into these games that they have this
Speaker 3: experience together, and I think that it's different than what
Speaker 3: you experience in the real world, where we're very tribal
Speaker 3: and everybody wants to stick with people who they're politically
Speaker 3: aligned with. But I think that there's a lot of
Speaker 3: friendships that happen in the world of Survivor where people
Speaker 3: who are on opposite polar.
Speaker 1: Opposite great about the show, you know.
Speaker 3: Nick Wilson, Mike Whider friends that I went to the
Speaker 3: Survivor finale and Zeke was with Sarah Lasina. You know
Speaker 3: that people, I think that who have gone through this
Speaker 3: experience sometimes become There are friendships that are made, and
Speaker 3: it's not really explored as much in the show about
Speaker 3: the people who are able to come together who have
Speaker 3: different political views. But I do think that it is
Speaker 3: something that is cool about Survivor.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you mentioned Nick Wilson. I feel like like that's
Speaker 1: a favorite season of ours. I thought he was a
Speaker 1: great winner for that season. Obviously, I think it's so funny.
Speaker 1: I remember watching the show and hearing he was like
Speaker 1: a public defender, and I was like, oh, so I
Speaker 1: made all these assumptions about him, and then of course
Speaker 1: he gets elected to office and he's the one example
Speaker 1: where he literally works in politics. So if you're telling
Speaker 1: me you can't separate that, I get it, But like,
Speaker 1: does it need to take away from the game and
Speaker 1: the win? Similar with Gabler, I think a lot of people,
Speaker 1: And then to go back to the Jonathan of it all,
Speaker 1: I just feel like so many people have just decided, hey,
Speaker 1: we are never going to root for this guy from
Speaker 1: a fall that I feel like I was watching people
Speaker 1: watch this season getting mad at how much he was
Speaker 1: featured and ultimately how good of a game he was
Speaker 1: playing just because Eliza told him not to like him,
Speaker 1: and I just like, I think that that's something where
Speaker 1: in real life I'm totally cool with it. But we're
Speaker 1: watching a show where lying is okay, stealing out of
Speaker 1: someone's bag is okay, not giving someone your jacket when
Speaker 1: they're cold is okay. This is not This is not
Speaker 1: the place I think to decide whether someone needs to be,
Speaker 1: you know, the person that you'd like in your office
Speaker 1: or whatever. I just I mean, that's just how I
Speaker 1: feel about So I'm glad you were able to share
Speaker 1: your thoughts.
Speaker 3: So, yeah, it's just such a big part of our
Speaker 3: world and we everybody like puts the laundry on and
Speaker 3: it's for their team and doesn't necessarily want to root
Speaker 3: for somebody from the other side. But I do feel
Speaker 3: like that hopefully, you know, reality TV, we are able
Speaker 3: to get to know the people a little bit more
Speaker 3: and that we can have more conversations with people who
Speaker 3: don't necessarily agree with us on everything.
Speaker 4: Do you feel like you get the pressure from your
Speaker 4: listeners to give context sometimes that you feel like, you know,
Speaker 4: maybe isn't steering things in and then the right direction.
Speaker 3: I think at times there is a little bit of pressure,
Speaker 3: but I I don't know if people necessarily, I personally
Speaker 3: don't feel a ton of pressure to, you know, talk
Speaker 3: about something that there's so many people who are doing that.
Speaker 3: People know what's up almost innately, and there's so much
Speaker 3: social media conversation around this, so I don't think that
Speaker 3: anybody is really coming to me to help explain what's
Speaker 3: going on.
Speaker 1: So a big topic to go back to everybody hating Jeff.
Speaker 1: Is they everyone thinks.
Speaker 2: I don't hate Jeff, No, but a lot I would.
Speaker 1: Say, would you say that the public opinion of Jeff
Speaker 1: from The Survivor super fan is probably at an all
Speaker 1: time low approval rating if you had to.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Jeff gets piled on a lot, and I think
Speaker 3: that sometimes he leans into it with his chin. I
Speaker 3: think that he could definitely be doing a better job in.
Speaker 2: Terms of my wrath.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well yeah for a few yeah, but yeah, he
Speaker 1: does own the whole. We're not gonna we're not gonna
Speaker 1: cast quote unquote bad people, true villains. Like the first
Speaker 1: twenty five seasons were like they literally cast John Rocker. Okay,
Speaker 1: they cast a guy who is famous for here in
Speaker 1: New York City saying some of the most racist things
Speaker 1: ever and now he has and yeah, homophobic, all this stuff,
Speaker 1: and that's why they cast him. And they were secretly
Speaker 1: hoping someone would discover him on the island and own
Speaker 1: him like Natalie did. And it worked out pretty perfectly.
Speaker 1: By the same token. I remember watching the season because
Speaker 1: I think it was a blood versus water, so I
Speaker 1: think he played with his wife. I believe you go
Speaker 1: from it and no girlfriend and I believe there were
Speaker 1: moments where I was able to say, man, I know
Speaker 1: I hate this guy, but you know, didn't hate what
Speaker 1: he did there, or that was an interesting move, or
Speaker 1: I wonder what's gonna happen here, And at the time
Speaker 1: I remember thinking, oh, this is this is interesting that
Speaker 1: they put him into this this you know whatever, He's
Speaker 1: not doing that anymore. Right that being said, the same
Speaker 1: viewers that are upset that were And I don't think
Speaker 1: John Rocker is the villain that people want. Took to
Speaker 1: me wrong. It was just an example of how far
Speaker 1: they went with it.
Speaker 3: He might be.
Speaker 1: But the but the I think I think people who
Speaker 1: say we want villains again want the the Russell Hans's
Speaker 1: of the world. Yeah right, And I think that what's
Speaker 1: kind of hypocritical is that you guys are from Afart
Speaker 1: villainizing the good guy, like like I think other than politics,
Speaker 1: it's like Jonathan, I think is like a pretty good guy, right,
Speaker 1: or like Chrissy I think, I mean, just like the
Speaker 1: first thing I heard is that you just like recovering
Speaker 1: from cancer. And this is that I move online saying
Speaker 1: like I can't vote for Christy because this is whatever
Speaker 1: I just found her voting record. So do you think
Speaker 1: it's hypocritical to both want that the long for those
Speaker 1: those kind of characters, you know that, but also you know,
Speaker 1: want to be able to draw the line of what
Speaker 1: little thing in their real life villainizes them to use.
Speaker 3: You know, well, I think that there's a few different
Speaker 3: issues there in terms of Jeff and the villains. Back
Speaker 3: in the day, I think that Survivor was looking for
Speaker 3: more of like the Russell Hans Ol Morosa, Johnny Fairplay
Speaker 3: types to come in who were really going to embrace
Speaker 3: being the villain. Jeff does not want to find those people.
Speaker 3: He's looking for eighteen twenty people. He wants heroes versus
Speaker 3: heroes where we understand the motivations for why not to
Speaker 3: say that people aren't going to make villainous moves like
Speaker 3: a Jesse might do, but that we're going to understand
Speaker 3: the motivations for why they're doing it. They're not doing
Speaker 3: it because that they get off on being a bad
Speaker 3: guy on TV that they don't like. They don't like
Speaker 3: that type person.
Speaker 1: I feel like that's forced the fandom because they're going
Speaker 1: to pick their people they don't like anyway. And I
Speaker 1: just remember saying how meaning the Internet was to Eva
Speaker 1: and Mitch, and I'm like, give them a villain. You know,
Speaker 1: that's the.
Speaker 3: Fair point in terms of like you might end up
Speaker 3: not having that as much, where if you had some
Speaker 3: people who really were the lightning rods of like, hey,
Speaker 3: I want that, I want the smoke that maybe people
Speaker 3: end up like looking more towards that politics.
Speaker 1: It can be oh, you're playing too boring of a game,
Speaker 1: or they're featuring you too much, or we're getting too
Speaker 1: much much sob story, you know, the whole thing that
Speaker 1: everyone loves, the big story, like with Joe and Eva
Speaker 1: or like you know, and I just think that people
Speaker 1: wouldn't root against that stuff if they had more obvious
Speaker 1: things to root against, like give me just like a
Speaker 1: mustache twirling captain, a villain, I mean, Johnny Fairplay. I mean, like,
Speaker 1: you know, maybe it maybe it needs to be updated
Speaker 1: for twenty twenty six, But somebody who comes in with
Speaker 1: that kind of a mindset I think wouldn't be the
Speaker 1: worst thing in the world.
Speaker 3: I don't think I've ever heard that take before that
Speaker 3: that that if we had somebody who was leaning into
Speaker 3: it a little bit more than maybe it would be
Speaker 3: easier on the other contestants because people people watch.
Speaker 2: Reality too like she was.
Speaker 4: She was billed as a villain to a lot of people,
Speaker 4: and like the worst that she did, you know, it's
Speaker 4: just like a personality. Like the worst that she did
Speaker 4: was like be confident in herself and you know, and and.
Speaker 3: I tried to take the keys from when and see
Speaker 3: was opening the locks.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I just say.
Speaker 4: People, when people would talk about, you know, why they
Speaker 4: didn't like her, I would I would say, like, okay,
Speaker 4: so like tell tell me what she did.
Speaker 2: Tell me the thing. No, it's a feeling. It's a feeling.
Speaker 2: I get, you know.
Speaker 4: She she's like those mean girls that I well, but
Speaker 4: what is it that she did that was mean?
Speaker 3: Or what?
Speaker 1: Why say? In real life, I always say the worst
Speaker 1: thing you do will be treated like the worst thing
Speaker 1: you've ever done. Right, So, if you're like a great husband,
Speaker 1: but like one day you forgot to do the dishes,
Speaker 1: or one day you stayed out later, or your fantasy
Speaker 1: draft this site's going to really yeah, it's going to
Speaker 1: be treated like the worst thing you've ever done. People
Speaker 1: watch reality TV to root for some people and against others,
Speaker 1: and if you don't give them like easy to root
Speaker 1: against people. They will find, like, you know, really really
Speaker 1: petty things to root against people for, you know, I
Speaker 1: just don't like the way she looks, or you know,
Speaker 1: or you know, he didn't make a move long, you know,
Speaker 1: for too long.
Speaker 3: And I also say that I think that part of
Speaker 3: the issue is also the algorithms really amplify the people
Speaker 3: who have the most emotionally charge things to say, and
Speaker 3: I think that those takes get really amplified, and so
Speaker 3: it feels like that there are more and more people
Speaker 3: that have those same sentiments, when maybe it might be
Speaker 3: you know, a few thousand people, but I'm sure it
Speaker 3: feels like millions of people have that same opinion.
Speaker 1: You obviously played Survivor long ago, so you don't have
Speaker 1: firsthand experience about how they're doing it these days, although
Speaker 1: you talk to everybody who does. And then you just
Speaker 1: got a first hand look at Traders. What can Survivor
Speaker 1: or even Big Brother other shows learn from Traders that
Speaker 1: they're doing being something that just entered the fold. Now,
Speaker 1: there's so many things I think they do well from afar,
Speaker 1: but having experienced production wise, scheduleized things like that, so
Speaker 1: I think that something that.
Speaker 3: Traders does really really well, is the roundtable is really
Speaker 3: about a place where people bring their conflict with each
Speaker 3: other out into the open and there's an open discussion.
Speaker 3: There's no subtrifuge of hey Scott, can you explain to
Speaker 3: me what you were thinking when? Like why were you
Speaker 3: doing this? Xyz? And the Traders are being shady, but
Speaker 3: everybody else, I think is being probably pretty cards up
Speaker 3: during those conversations. At Survivor, I think sometimes is so
Speaker 3: conflict averse, and I think that Traders really leans into
Speaker 3: that a lot more of they want there to be
Speaker 3: shouting matches and the airing of the grievances, where at
Speaker 3: tribal council everybody is like very poker face, speaking in metaphor.
Speaker 3: I'm not revealing what's going on, and then we reveal
Speaker 3: our votes, and then somebody goes home and we got you,
Speaker 3: And even then we don't have at the we don't
Speaker 3: have a real reunion where we really have let's talk
Speaker 3: about the conflict that was what was really going on
Speaker 3: there where. I think that Survivor wants everything to be
Speaker 3: so it's an era of sportsmanship on Survivor, and I
Speaker 3: think that that's nice, especially when there's such a lack
Speaker 3: of sportsmanship in many other parts of our world. But
Speaker 3: I think that when we tune to to reality TV,
Speaker 3: when we come to watch a reality show, I think
Speaker 3: we're okay, we want to see a little conflict.
Speaker 1: Well, you mentioned they don't look at the reunion just
Speaker 1: just on a selfish note. We don't even get the
Speaker 1: question of hey, who here would have voted for Rizzo,
Speaker 1: or we don't even get any to resolve the kind
Speaker 1: of what ifs, and then the conflict wise, you know,
Speaker 1: I remember there was an issue I think it was
Speaker 1: maybe six seasons ago someone went, I believe your podcast
Speaker 1: said too much about some conflicts that we weren't even
Speaker 1: privy to on the show, which, again for us as listeners,
Speaker 1: is crack because it's like we're finally getting some conflict
Speaker 1: and instead of leaning into it, they like then shut
Speaker 1: it down and like had to shorten the interviews in
Speaker 1: future seasons. You know, So what, like, what what is
Speaker 1: it about? I mean reality TV was built on conflict.
Speaker 1: Survivor invented it more or less? Like what is it
Speaker 1: about just hearing stories about stuff that actually happened that
Speaker 1: puts the fear of God in them to where they
Speaker 1: literally want to silence people to the degree they do.
Speaker 3: You know, I think that Survivor has gotten a lot
Speaker 3: of it's not even bad press, but they don't like controversy.
Speaker 3: And I think that Survivor's feeling on is that there's
Speaker 3: not twenty four different versions of what happens. We showed
Speaker 3: you the version we told that. Our version of what
Speaker 3: happened is the version of record, and we're not really
Speaker 3: interested in there being twenty four different accounts of what
Speaker 3: happened or what anybody deemed was unfair in terms of
Speaker 3: how it went. And so I think that they really
Speaker 3: try to do a lot to keep the story consistent
Speaker 3: of what happened on the show. And I think that
Speaker 3: for whatever reason from people then going back through twenty
Speaker 3: five years of the show, actually it wasn't right that
Speaker 3: this happened. This wasn't right. I just think that they
Speaker 3: want to try to get ahead of that as much
Speaker 3: as possible and keep those different firestorms from flaring out.
Speaker 4: I want to make sure we talk a little bit
Speaker 4: today about your podcast empire as a whole, and what
Speaker 4: you've been able to build and how that's influenced my
Speaker 4: husband and my life and turn and you know, you
Speaker 4: start off as a Survivor podcaster and you have diversified
Speaker 4: so much in what you're covering. Is there sort of
Speaker 4: a limit do you see to like how.
Speaker 1: I decide to cover Paradise but not the challenge.
Speaker 4: Like where is the limit for you when you're so
Speaker 4: diversified and what you cover?
Speaker 3: Yeah, So it's a good question in terms of where
Speaker 3: do we focus our attention and my attention. And it's
Speaker 3: something that I've had to really come to terms with
Speaker 3: as I've gotten older and I want to spend more
Speaker 3: time not podcasting. I mean, I could podcast about everything,
Speaker 3: but there needs to be like a work life balance
Speaker 3: where I don't burn out.
Speaker 2: I get that.
Speaker 3: I think that there was a point when I wanted
Speaker 3: to try to be as wide as possible and try
Speaker 3: to cover as many different things. Now I feel like
Speaker 3: I'm a little bit more specialized in terms of covering
Speaker 3: shows deeply rather than as many different shows as possible.
Speaker 3: I am watching Love Island this summer and I'm really
Speaker 3: I'm loving it so much. It's been so it's been
Speaker 3: so much fun. But Survivor isn't on Big Brothers not on,
Speaker 3: so I think that I can look at one or
Speaker 3: two things at a time. I think that for me
Speaker 3: with the Challenge and you know, we have Challenge podcasts
Speaker 3: with Ali and Brian from you know, twenty fourteen. I
Speaker 3: think it was when they started doing that on R.
Speaker 1: E j P.
Speaker 3: But there's so much lore there for me to get
Speaker 3: up to speed on everything. It's just like it would be.
Speaker 3: I think it'd be tough a lot of times. It's
Speaker 3: on at the same time as Survivor.
Speaker 1: Also did a little Challenge USA when they did rest.
Speaker 3: Yeah, both of those were on during the summer, I
Speaker 3: think when there was just only Big Brother going on. So,
Speaker 3: you know, I've dabbled a little bit and something like
Speaker 3: Paradise was just like.
Speaker 1: That you talk about.
Speaker 3: I was just watching the show context. I'm watching the
Speaker 3: show and I have I'm watching it anyway and I
Speaker 3: feel like I have takes, so let me find Luckily
Speaker 3: Chappelle humored me enough to do the podcast with me
Speaker 3: every week.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I remember you had Kylon and he was really
Speaker 1: into it. And I remember you used to cover Succession,
Speaker 1: which we were big succession people saw game. I love
Speaker 1: that you still do stuff like that.
Speaker 3: We tried to do more scripted content and we really
Speaker 3: at one point were really all in on scripted shows.
Speaker 3: But it just proved that there's there's so many people.
Speaker 3: And you know, yourself is a great example where that
Speaker 3: you're you're already here, you're doing the thing, and and
Speaker 3: and there's a podcast network for almost every other thing,
Speaker 3: and it's very hard for us to try to do
Speaker 3: Game of Thrones better than the people.
Speaker 2: And he just humors me with the Survivor padcast.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so yeah, no, I hear you.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I think in the early days of
Speaker 3: podcasting that there weren't as many podcasts, but now there
Speaker 3: is like a specialized podcast for almost every single thing.
Speaker 3: So what's our value add that we can do a
Speaker 3: certain shows podcast better than the people who do it
Speaker 3: three hundred five days out of the year.
Speaker 1: Well, and you know, I think such a great sign
Speaker 1: of of like what you guys deliver so well is
Speaker 1: you know it's on the spot Survivor's over. I'm running.
Speaker 1: I don't even want to wait till the audio goes up.
Speaker 1: So I'm watching the live Twitter of you and fishback
Speaker 1: talk and people want that immediate gratification. You guys cover
Speaker 1: all these, like you said, certain shows so well, so fully.
Speaker 1: You have such a diverse staff of other podcasters who
Speaker 1: are covering other things euphoria, this, we know, this, you
Speaker 1: you know, and so you do all that and you
Speaker 1: do it from your apartment or your house and things
Speaker 1: like that. Here we are in this gorgeous Gotham production
Speaker 1: studio in New York City.
Speaker 4: When when I first walked into this room, I feel
Speaker 4: like we specified it for you.
Speaker 1: We have felt pressured over the past couple of years
Speaker 1: as more people have crowded the podcast base and done
Speaker 1: so in a way that you know, looks like a
Speaker 1: studio talk show. When I fell in love with podcasting
Speaker 1: as a listener of your show, before I even started
Speaker 1: doing it, it was mainly audio, which is the barrier
Speaker 1: of entry is very easy. All you needed was a
Speaker 1: mic and a podbeing account and you can get going
Speaker 1: and seeing if you can get traction. Now the barrier
Speaker 1: of entry is, you know, if you don't look like
Speaker 1: the Traders reunion, good luck. And it's obviously a decision
Speaker 1: we were able to make because we're doing well enough.
Speaker 1: But it's something that, yeah, if I could go back
Speaker 1: in time and still do it from my closet with
Speaker 1: a headset mic on, I would You guys obviously have
Speaker 1: gorgeous video, and you're doing streaming and things like that,
Speaker 1: but like, how have you seen You're been doing podcasting
Speaker 1: for so long. It started as a competitor radio and
Speaker 1: then involved into video, but sort of as a luxury
Speaker 1: you watch if you want, but you can still listen.
Speaker 1: And now when people Escavation start a podcast today, I'm like, well,
Speaker 1: I don't know, can you afford to book a you know,
Speaker 1: a crew in studio and things like that? When you
Speaker 1: watch that from afar, seeing silly people like us with
Speaker 1: all the bells and whistles and doing things like this,
Speaker 1: what say you? I mean, you do so much already.
Speaker 1: I think it'd be hard to not do it from
Speaker 1: the comfort of your home. But when you see the
Speaker 1: Ringers of the world on Netflix and this and that
Speaker 1: and everything is video and clips and things, just as
Speaker 1: the podcast professionally been for so long, what do you
Speaker 1: think about the next few years of podcasting?
Speaker 3: Yeah, that was a great setup for where we're at.
Speaker 3: I think that video has become a big deal in
Speaker 3: terms of the long form video, and I think the
Speaker 3: YouTube does a lot to help get the episodes in
Speaker 3: front of more people and into related views. But I
Speaker 3: think that the clips have also become a really big deal,
Speaker 3: where you have most people who are experiencing the show
Speaker 3: might be experiencing it from the clips, and more people
Speaker 3: are seeing the clips, then ultimately you're listening to the
Speaker 3: long form episodes. But you can't do away with the
Speaker 3: long form. There's still people who that they are listeners first.
Speaker 3: And so I know, for myself, there's a lot of
Speaker 3: podcasts that I listen to on my you know, on
Speaker 3: my podcast, and I don't have the chance to do
Speaker 3: to be watching the video for things. So I think
Speaker 3: that there's just say, it's an evolution in terms of this,
Speaker 3: I don't necessarily see podcasting as like a first screen experience,
Speaker 3: but I do think that it's the type of thing
Speaker 3: where you're, you know, you have your show that's on
Speaker 3: on the main screen or sports, and then I think
Speaker 3: that even the video on podcasting is still a second
Speaker 3: screen experience where I'm you know, on going scrolling through
Speaker 3: reels or like maybe have the iPad on the counter,
Speaker 3: but I'm actually doing something else, And so I think
Speaker 3: it's important to have. I think you want to be
Speaker 3: in as many places as possible, But I think it's shifting.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I agree and the clips. It's funny. I've
Speaker 1: I've had to like explain this to Derek. I'm like,
Speaker 1: we have two audiences. We have the people who discovered
Speaker 1: us when whether they're listening to us or even watching
Speaker 1: the whole episode. And then we have you know, again
Speaker 1: like exponentially more like sometimes one hundred thousand people that
Speaker 1: will see us say this now ninety second thing, and
Speaker 1: if we can get one percent of them to go
Speaker 1: and listen to or watch our thing or come to
Speaker 1: our show, great, but we have to assume we won't.
Speaker 1: Like that is also a new audience where we are
Speaker 1: doing minute by minute shows for these people in clip form,
Speaker 1: the same way mister Beast is creating reality show seasons
Speaker 1: in twenty minute YouTube video form that are like, you know,
Speaker 1: our kids generation and beyond anyone pretty much twenty five
Speaker 1: years or younger. How do you even get them to
Speaker 1: fall in love with a twenty two episode, twenty two
Speaker 1: week reality TV experience when they're getting that and Jesse's
Speaker 1: son is winning more than any survivor winner ever. You know,
Speaker 1: he's twelve years old and he's doing it in twenty minutes.
Speaker 1: And then you can have breakfast, you know.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think he probably won more than anybody in
Speaker 3: a like in terms of like time for per dollar.
Speaker 1: I think that well, he literally won. I think we
Speaker 1: want half a five hundred thousand dollars a week before taxes,
Speaker 1: which is more than any at least challenge winner other
Speaker 1: than I think three seasons. He's won more than that
Speaker 1: when he was twelve years old. So I mean, that's
Speaker 1: it's amazing, but real quick because we got to run.
Speaker 1: So much was made of the celebrities who made cameos
Speaker 1: on Survivor this season. Not enough was made about you
Speaker 1: interviewsing celebrities into your podcast guests. How did that come
Speaker 1: about and were you impressed by how many celebrities are
Speaker 1: Survivor superfans and what was one interview that stood out
Speaker 1: to you?
Speaker 3: So it was really fun to have so much excitement
Speaker 3: around Survivor where people who had been bigger Survivor fans
Speaker 3: were sort of like in the in the weeds. We
Speaker 3: were able to reach out to them and got them
Speaker 3: give them the chance to talk about the show, and
Speaker 3: a lot of that came through outreach from us and
Speaker 3: Brandon Donlin did a really good job of sliding into
Speaker 3: dms of people who were talking about Survivor. Also, my
Speaker 3: co writer on the book, Alex Kabutski is a comedy
Speaker 3: writer and so he has had.
Speaker 1: A lot of comedians. Paul Sheer was on right.
Speaker 3: Yeah. The one that really at the end of the
Speaker 3: season really took a lot of people by storm was
Speaker 3: Brendan Lee Mulligan, who does drop back out and yeah,
Speaker 3: and people were just like over the moon and then
Speaker 3: he came on and he just really killed it.
Speaker 1: A couple more rapid fire here. This is from a listener.
Speaker 1: Jeff Christie wants, you know, what's the one thing you
Speaker 1: still have yet to accomplish that you're waiting to add
Speaker 1: to the to the Rob has a bucket list.
Speaker 3: I'd love to try to create a reality game. I
Speaker 3: think that we have had so much conversation over the
Speaker 3: years of what works and what doesn't work. I feel
Speaker 3: like that that would be like a literally evolution on.
Speaker 4: The on the like walking out the door today with Scott,
Speaker 4: because Scott has some really good idea. You know, he
Speaker 4: started off in producing reality and he has some really
Speaker 4: amazing ideas that I won't have him reveal here, but
Speaker 4: I was like, you know you and Rob needs to
Speaker 4: you and Rob need to come up and produce a
Speaker 4: show together, a reality show together, and he was like, I.
Speaker 1: Don't think he was like that, no, no, no, want
Speaker 1: me and the meaning himself long and I always kind
Speaker 1: of have one foot in the development pool trying to
Speaker 1: get things going. And it is impossible.
Speaker 4: You're the perfect person to develop a show with because
Speaker 4: you've you've just been studying it. In fact, I was
Speaker 4: like wondering on Traders, how hard it was for you
Speaker 4: not to like give suggestions on you know, how we
Speaker 4: can adjust some suggestions for the game rules or whatnot.
Speaker 4: But I just think, I mean, you've you've studied it
Speaker 4: for so long, like you know, so you two. I'm
Speaker 4: going to say it was going to be just something
Speaker 4: I said to him on the walk since you went there.
Speaker 1: But that is a great bucket the show and then
Speaker 1: and then it can be Rob has a as a
Speaker 1: reality show dot com. So a couple of things. One
Speaker 1: of my favorite subjects is this Adam klein Uh business
Speaker 1: he has casting people or helping people get cast, not
Speaker 1: just on Survivor but other shows. And how much Survivor
Speaker 1: and Jeff Probe seemingly dislike this. What is it about
Speaker 1: it that you think bothers them so much. Which is
Speaker 1: it the fact that there's a code that someone is
Speaker 1: able to crack. I mean, I feel like he's a
Speaker 1: feeder system for them.
Speaker 3: I think that they look at it of like, hey,
Speaker 3: they're not going to like you, but here's how you
Speaker 3: trindiculate to be able to It's almost like if you
Speaker 3: go to like some dating coach that and I think
Speaker 3: that Adam will tell you, Yeah, I'm like a dating
Speaker 3: coach and I'm going to tell you like the ways
Speaker 3: to bring out the best parts of your personality. But
Speaker 3: I think that they look at it. He's sort of
Speaker 3: like a guy who is like working on like, Okay,
Speaker 3: here's the pickup lines to say, that's gonna definitely you know,
Speaker 3: get you the phone number. And so I think that
Speaker 3: they don't like that.
Speaker 1: I think it was Christian and I forget it was
Speaker 1: Adam who helped him with this, but he said he
Speaker 1: had auditioned so many times or sending so many taps,
Speaker 1: and he made one adjustment, which is instead of opening
Speaker 1: on the way he opened, he opened with like himself
Speaker 1: doing something and stuff like that. And to me, that
Speaker 1: is just if there is quote unquote like a formula
Speaker 1: or a code to delivering your story. It's not like
Speaker 1: he's greasing somebody to cast Caleb or whatever. Like literally,
Speaker 1: what he's doing is he's bettering the delivery system. You're
Speaker 1: still gonna go through five more rounds and they're gonna
Speaker 1: have to meet Jeff and this, that and the other thing.
Speaker 1: So I honestly think he's sort of an unpaid scout
Speaker 1: for them, like I don't know, not by them. Obviously,
Speaker 1: he's getting paid by the individuals. But so I think
Speaker 1: I wonder if that's something that will age well, and
Speaker 1: they will, they will sort of come around on that.
Speaker 1: I wish Adam would lean into it a little more.
Speaker 1: I told him, I said, you should have a podcast
Speaker 1: where you're talking about casting decisions from AFAR so you
Speaker 1: can just be more widely known as the casting guru,
Speaker 1: you know, because I think now it looks like you're
Speaker 1: just a player who thinks you crack the code of
Speaker 1: this one show. I think the unwritten thing and the
Speaker 1: people that don't know is that you're getting people cast
Speaker 1: for all these other shows and it's not a survivor
Speaker 1: specific thing. It's you're basically like a video dating coach. Anyway,
Speaker 1: all right, Okay, big problem we have this year. I mean,
Speaker 1: the Challenge is littered with spoilers. Survivor is always so
Speaker 1: good at curving that I choose to in this in
Speaker 1: the Challenge world. Sadly, I kind of have to keep
Speaker 1: one foot in the spoiler pool because I feel responsible
Speaker 1: for policing all of our comment threads, all of our pages.
Speaker 1: Someone's writing in a question, they're trying to be cute,
Speaker 1: and what they are is trying to ruin the season
Speaker 1: for everyone. I have to kind of be able to
Speaker 1: snuff it out and delete it. And then also it's
Speaker 1: nice to be able to plan ahead a little bit.
Speaker 1: But even if I didn't want to do that, the
Speaker 1: spoilers are so rampant. Survivors never had this problem cut
Speaker 1: to this year. Polymarket Calshi, where they're not technically spoilers,
Speaker 1: but if you follow the money in wherever all the
Speaker 1: money's going, it's indirectly as when the results came out
Speaker 1: proven that they're were spoils. Was this season particularly hard
Speaker 1: for you to avoid that stuff where people presenting that
Speaker 1: information to you as if it was just something nice
Speaker 1: to share with you, not knowing that they were indirectly.
Speaker 3: So I largely was able to avoid it until as
Speaker 3: we got very close to the end of the season.
Speaker 3: It was kind of everywhere and very hard not to
Speaker 3: see it. I remember at the beginning of the season
Speaker 3: that I had done some a lot of press people
Speaker 3: were A reporter said like, hey, I want to ask
Speaker 3: you about the account. I'm like, hey, I don't want
Speaker 3: to know about what whatever's going on there. I think
Speaker 3: it's wrong that these companies are doing this, That you
Speaker 3: are having betting on something that has already happened, You're
Speaker 3: inviting this insider trading to happen. I frankly, I don't
Speaker 3: think they care. I don't think they They allowed you.
Speaker 1: They allowed people to take bets the other day on
Speaker 1: whether an alien invasion would happen during a soccer game
Speaker 1: because one random i think Brazilian fan said she had
Speaker 1: a prophecy that an alien spaceship was going to come down,
Speaker 1: and they took money on, like, hey, there's a one
Speaker 1: percent chance that's going to happen. If you want to
Speaker 1: bet a million dollars to win one hundred dollars, we'll
Speaker 1: let you do it. That's how low the bar is
Speaker 1: for this stuff.
Speaker 3: But you know what, that there was a chance aliens
Speaker 3: were going to happen. It was yeah, it wasn't like
Speaker 3: are aliens going to show up in disclosure day?
Speaker 1: You know?
Speaker 3: So I think that it also is like beyond that,
Speaker 3: I think that not only would do they take bets,
Speaker 3: I think that also with social media. I had a
Speaker 3: lot of people tell me that there there were like
Speaker 3: they were like running targeted ads to Survivor fans, So
Speaker 3: you would go on to social media and then in
Speaker 3: your social media feed that they would be hey, look
Speaker 3: did you see that this? And it's like like, come
Speaker 3: look at it. So they really were trying to then
Speaker 3: market off of the insider trading that was happening on
Speaker 3: survill And I.
Speaker 1: Think I read it was like something like thirty or
Speaker 1: fifty million dollars was traded specifically on Survivor. Some of
Speaker 1: those people won, a lot of those people lost. It
Speaker 1: doesn't matter, you know what I mean. And that's just
Speaker 1: again to go back to the chatter and the talking
Speaker 1: about it. They take bets on whether some a dictator
Speaker 1: is going to be you know, kidnapped or whatever. Like
Speaker 1: all this stuff is basically meant for insider trading, Like
Speaker 1: the the idea that anyone would bet a sizeable amount
Speaker 1: on something they didn't know with a little bit of
Speaker 1: insider info or it's been taped. Is just you know,
Speaker 1: So is there a solve other than they flat out
Speaker 1: stopped taking the bets?
Speaker 3: The problem is I think that you would look to
Speaker 3: politicians to fix it, and I think that a lot
Speaker 3: of the politicians that you would need to fix this
Speaker 3: are also know that they are somehow connected to it,
Speaker 3: so it seems rather bleak and helpless. I think that
Speaker 3: the only thing that people can do is really speak
Speaker 3: up about something like this.
Speaker 1: I think the real thing that's going to suffer is
Speaker 1: those drafts and everything like that. I used to be
Speaker 1: have to go like the depths of Reddit to try
Speaker 1: to cheat, and now it's like front page if you
Speaker 1: want it, or you can even talk yourself into Oh
Speaker 1: I was just doing research because like we'll do our draft.
Speaker 2: Oh do you remember the Bachelor draft we did?
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, well, because that show has always been that.
Speaker 2: Was such a well because we were doing it.
Speaker 4: We were doing it like with friends, you know, and
Speaker 4: then like someone invited their sister in law or something
Speaker 4: who didn't have the same sense of like, oh, we're
Speaker 4: all friends. Who cares whether I win or lose. The twenties,
Speaker 4: she was reality. She was like getting it right, and
Speaker 4: we're like, yeah, this isn't fun anymore.
Speaker 1: But she thinks that she if I go and I
Speaker 1: see who you guys drafted, and I'll be like, oh,
Speaker 1: Asia drafted it, I'm gonna go in first overall with that,
Speaker 1: and she's like, that's too much research for art. She'd
Speaker 1: think that's you even think that's not a no.
Speaker 3: I listen.
Speaker 4: I listened to podcasts or people making addictions beforehand.
Speaker 1: You are such a busy man. Were a thrill that
Speaker 1: you spend some time with us today. The Tribe and
Speaker 1: I have spoken in hardcover. Is there going to be
Speaker 1: a soft cover edition at some point as well?
Speaker 3: Or you know, I don't know about that.
Speaker 1: This is great.
Speaker 3: It is an audiobook. Oh did you do the audio
Speaker 3: audio booky?
Speaker 1: Wow? Okay, so if you need more of Rob's voice,
Speaker 1: which you can already get and.
Speaker 3: I got to do a lot of impressions in the
Speaker 3: audiobook a little bit.
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, by the way, I found I think it
Speaker 1: was actually you had Adam Klein on and you were
Speaker 1: talking about how something that's sort of gone the way
Speaker 1: of the Dodo bird is being able to do any
Speaker 1: impression that now you've probably got a couple in the
Speaker 1: chamber that you just don't even feel culturally okay with
Speaker 1: doing because you feel like, is it worth it? I
Speaker 1: do a really good jam jam, but ah do I
Speaker 1: want to I'm not going to do it right?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I've done it. I have done it. I do
Speaker 3: a lot of times. I will still do it, but
Speaker 3: I pause, I pause, and I think, should I do it?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Right? Exactly whereas back in the day American pie,
Speaker 1: that general, I mean, it was just do the impression? Yeah,
Speaker 1: all right, Well we need to bring back doing impressions
Speaker 1: cause I think, what is it? A imitation? Is this
Speaker 1: serious form of flattery? It is very flattering that you
Speaker 1: joined us here today. Pick up the book. Everybody the
Speaker 1: Tribe and I Have Spoken. Rob has a website dot com.
Speaker 1: He covers every reality show under the sun, and then
Speaker 1: the one he doesn't that he allows Ali and Brian
Speaker 1: to cover. We cover as well here with the challenge.
Speaker 1: But this is the first ever in person survivormania we
Speaker 1: have done.
Speaker 4: I'm always trying to get them to do more, but
Speaker 4: he just likes you a lot, and he doesn't want
Speaker 4: to wait.
Speaker 1: They do it so well. It's like I got the podcast.
Speaker 1: Bryce and Wendell have the party thing unlocked. They doing
Speaker 1: parties in different cities.
Speaker 4: I tried to get to do a Survivor Remania live
Speaker 4: this season.
Speaker 2: It wasn't happening.
Speaker 1: My bright baby boy, Bryce has it. By the way,
Speaker 1: when I saw Jeff Probes, I went to his book
Speaker 1: signing and I used my one minute with him to say.
Speaker 6: Can I give you a casting idea? And he goes,
Speaker 6: what is it? Can I give you a casting idea?
Speaker 6: And he goes, what is it?
Speaker 1: I said, Bryce Isaiah I would say. He started pondering,
Speaker 1: and I go, I know, early boot. He goes, no,
Speaker 1: it's not the early boot. I go, but dude, he's
Speaker 1: had such a journey. Everybody loves him so popular. Give
Speaker 1: it a thought. He said, all right, well, but he
Speaker 1: said it's not the early boot of it. I wonder
Speaker 1: what it is like. Okay, last question. Do you think
Speaker 1: that you can become too much of a part of
Speaker 1: the Survivor culture and world to get eventually called back
Speaker 1: to do the show?
Speaker 3: Like?
Speaker 1: Is Bryce too much of a now a like Survivor
Speaker 1: personality to get brought back to do the show? Because
Speaker 1: what reason do you think they wouldn't bring back of Bryce.
Speaker 3: I can't imagine what, and I don't think that that
Speaker 3: could be a thing, So yeah, I can't imagine what.
Speaker 3: The second part of that was. Yeah, I wish you
Speaker 3: didn't cut him off.
Speaker 1: I know, well, it's not that I cut him off.
Speaker 1: He was just like pondering in. I didn't think he
Speaker 1: was going to tell me. I just thought he was
Speaker 1: like thinking of something. So I was like, is these
Speaker 1: the words you're thinking of it? He's like, it's not that.
Speaker 1: But that's so now I don't know what what Bryce.
Speaker 1: I don't know what you did to Jeff, but.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that wasn't very nice that you use your one
Speaker 3: minute with Jeff to vouch for Bryce.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I feel like I to me, he is
Speaker 1: a layup of a casting choice. Well, she was like,
Speaker 1: why don't you pitch me? I'm like, people pitch their wife.
Speaker 1: Come on, Well, and I said, you got to get
Speaker 1: with mister Klein, by the way, if you really want
Speaker 1: to do with the right now.
Speaker 6: Thank you?
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, Rob, thank you so much.
Speaker 3: Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you guys know where to find them, and you
Speaker 1: guys know where to find us and pick up the
Speaker 1: book the Tribe and I have spoken. All Right, guys,
Speaker 1: this sends your time here on Challenge Mania. Take care
Speaker 1: of yourselves and hopefully we'll see in the future. Did
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