1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:04,639 Speaker 1: The whole world is a miracle, and we struggle to 2 00:00:04,639 --> 00:00:06,000 see it because we're so used to it, are kind 3 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:08,199 of bored by it because we were just we just 4 00:00:08,279 --> 00:00:09,640 live in the world and we're used to it. But 5 00:00:09,679 --> 00:00:13,039 once you start to realize to what extent all things 6 00:00:13,599 --> 00:00:18,199 are held in spirit in God, you realize that the 7 00:00:18,239 --> 00:00:22,359 miracles are just really very bright versions of something that 8 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:26,120 happens all the time, that is constantly underlying the world. 9 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:40,000 Speaker 2: So we're going to try to look at that. This 10 00:00:40,119 --> 00:00:43,439 is Jonathan Pesel, Welcome to the symbolic world. 11 00:00:57,479 --> 00:00:59,200 Speaker 3: I know people say things like you know, such and 12 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:02,000 such as does not an introduction, but I think that's 13 00:01:02,039 --> 00:01:06,439 probably true of all of our speakers today. But I 14 00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:09,000 think many of us have the experience of clicking on 15 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:16,879 a video and watching Jonathan Pago do his thing. And 16 00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:19,359 one of my favorite things that he does is was 17 00:01:19,359 --> 00:01:21,719 saying where he says, I just don't know what to 18 00:01:21,799 --> 00:01:26,319 tell you, but he does. 19 00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:28,359 Speaker 2: So Jonathan. 20 00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:32,680 Speaker 3: Please everybody welcome Jonathan up for his fall. 21 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:45,159 Speaker 2: It is just good you. Yeah, I'm fine, I'm fine. Hey, everyone. 22 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:48,680 Speaker 1: Everybody organizing this conference is really good at making it 23 00:01:48,719 --> 00:01:51,239 feel like we're just all of big family hanging out 24 00:01:52,159 --> 00:02:04,879 and so yeah, all right, all right, so fractals everybody. 25 00:02:08,199 --> 00:02:11,680 Speaker 2: So this is something called the sibirsky. How did you 26 00:02:11,680 --> 00:02:13,879 pronounce it? Serpinski triangle. 27 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:17,240 Speaker 1: I mean it existed before the mathematician, but I guess 28 00:02:17,439 --> 00:02:21,080 it took his name. And so I thought, if we're 29 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:24,120 going to talk about fellowship of the Spirit, I thought, 30 00:02:24,159 --> 00:02:27,199 because I'm with a bunch of experts here, the people 31 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:29,199 who have been kind of following these conversations for a 32 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:31,479 long time, I thought we would try to push a 33 00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:35,960 little harder on our understanding of what that means, of 34 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:38,840 why these words that we use are not arbitrary. You know, 35 00:02:38,879 --> 00:02:43,000 we've spent several, maybe the last one hundred years people 36 00:02:43,039 --> 00:02:44,840 try to convince us that a lot of these words 37 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:45,240 are kind of. 38 00:02:45,199 --> 00:02:46,240 Speaker 2: Just arbitrary words. 39 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:51,680 Speaker 1: Spirit, angel have been all these things, but they actually 40 00:02:51,719 --> 00:02:53,400 have meanings and they actually. 41 00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:54,479 Speaker 2: Are talking about reality. 42 00:02:55,479 --> 00:02:58,199 Speaker 1: And so we're gonna look a little bit more about 43 00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:01,960 how it is that spirit embodies itself in the world, 44 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:05,360 and hopefully it will move us a little further. And 45 00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:08,280 I'm pushing myself harder because when I'm with you guys, 46 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:08,919 feel like. 47 00:03:08,879 --> 00:03:09,639 Speaker 2: I can do that too. 48 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:10,960 Speaker 1: I can kind of go on the edge of what 49 00:03:11,039 --> 00:03:13,439 I understand, and so if i'm if you've seen me 50 00:03:13,479 --> 00:03:15,599 skating a little, hopefully you can be. 51 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:20,080 Speaker 2: More forgiving than in other circumstances. 52 00:03:22,159 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 1: And so one of the things that sometimes makes it 53 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:28,800 harder for us, how do I know how much time 54 00:03:28,840 --> 00:03:29,120 I have? 55 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:30,159 Speaker 2: Is there a way to do that? 56 00:03:30,159 --> 00:03:30,280 Speaker 1: Oh? 57 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:31,960 Speaker 2: I see it's right there, all right, Sorry, I just 58 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:33,439 want to make sure I don't go over. 59 00:03:33,759 --> 00:03:36,520 Speaker 1: So one of the things that makes it difficult for 60 00:03:36,599 --> 00:03:40,479 us to understand what it is we're talking about when 61 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:43,639 we talk about spirit or fellowship of the Spirit, or 62 00:03:43,639 --> 00:03:46,919 the way in which Spirit embodies itself in the world, 63 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:52,360 is really is our difficulty thinking in terms of fractals. 64 00:03:52,719 --> 00:03:57,520 It's the difficulty in understanding how this is constantly happening 65 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:02,680 all the time in everything thing that we encounter, right, and. 66 00:04:02,599 --> 00:04:04,960 Speaker 2: That all things and all. 67 00:04:06,759 --> 00:04:11,719 Speaker 1: All parts of things are always God sustaining the world 68 00:04:11,759 --> 00:04:12,639 through His spirit. 69 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:18,879 Speaker 2: The whole world is a miracle, and we struggle to 70 00:04:18,879 --> 00:04:20,360 see it because we're so used to it, are kind. 71 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:22,439 Speaker 1: Of bored by it because we were just we just 72 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:23,879 live in the world, and we're used to it. But 73 00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:27,279 once you start to realize to what extent all things 74 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:32,439 are held in spirit, in God, you realize that the 75 00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:36,639 miracles are just really very bright versions of something that 76 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:40,360 happens all the time, that is constantly underlying the world. 77 00:04:41,199 --> 00:04:42,759 Speaker 2: So we're going to try to look at that a 78 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:43,279 little bit. 79 00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:50,000 Speaker 1: So maybe go to the next slide. And so in 80 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:55,920 the Bible, the Bible starts with these these basic categories Heaven, Earth. 81 00:04:56,560 --> 00:04:58,639 At first, we don't really know what it is because 82 00:04:58,839 --> 00:05:02,079 these categories are kind of and then as the Bible progresses, 83 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:04,680 you could think that the whole Bible is there to 84 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:09,040 help us understand what these are talking about. Now, what's 85 00:05:09,199 --> 00:05:12,879 the first thing that's important to understand is that neither 86 00:05:12,959 --> 00:05:16,920 of these categories are in the world, in the world 87 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:19,920 as we experience it. They're not things. Heaven is not 88 00:05:19,959 --> 00:05:22,279 a thing. Earth is not a thing the way it's 89 00:05:22,319 --> 00:05:27,639 described in the Bible. Earth is chaotic potential, right, it's 90 00:05:27,639 --> 00:05:28,399 tohu bohu. 91 00:05:28,519 --> 00:05:30,959 Speaker 2: It's it's this emptiness and void, right. 92 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:34,680 Speaker 1: And Heaven is the place out of which God's voice 93 00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:37,639 comes and forms reality. 94 00:05:38,199 --> 00:05:40,079 Speaker 2: And so it's not it's not in the world. 95 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:43,480 Speaker 1: And that's really important to understand because when we start 96 00:05:43,519 --> 00:05:45,480 to think that they're in the world, then we get 97 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:46,879 massively confused. 98 00:05:47,279 --> 00:05:49,839 Speaker 2: When we look at it, when we look at. 99 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:52,720 Speaker 1: Things, because we just can't see at which at what 100 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:56,319 proper level we we can look at. So it's really 101 00:05:56,319 --> 00:05:59,839 important to understand there are different words that we use. Right, 102 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:05,000 So when you talk about spirit and matter matter, if 103 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:08,000 we think about it that way, matter also doesn't exist. 104 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:12,439 It doesn't have an existence unless it is qualified by Heaven. 105 00:06:12,879 --> 00:06:15,759 Everything that has a name, everything that you can recognize, 106 00:06:15,959 --> 00:06:19,959 is adjoining of Heaven and Earth together, right, And so 107 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:22,600 a way of thinking about it, I'm giving you a 108 00:06:22,639 --> 00:06:27,879 basic idea is you have order coming from above, coming 109 00:06:27,959 --> 00:06:32,959 from Heaven, and you have potential or chaos that comes 110 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:37,120 from below, and you need those two categories. 111 00:06:37,199 --> 00:06:40,439 Speaker 2: You need those two things in order for anything to exist. 112 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:45,680 Speaker 1: And this joining of order and potential is happening in 113 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:49,639 every being that you recognize as existing. So you could 114 00:06:49,639 --> 00:06:55,839 think of every single being has Heaven and Earth inside. 115 00:06:56,279 --> 00:06:58,759 And there are these images that the church fathers use 116 00:06:58,800 --> 00:06:59,480 that are beautiful. 117 00:06:59,519 --> 00:07:01,519 Speaker 2: They talk about how. 118 00:07:01,519 --> 00:07:06,240 Speaker 1: In your heart there's Heaven and Earth in your heart, right, 119 00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:09,399 and there's a ladder in your heart that connects. 120 00:07:08,959 --> 00:07:10,040 Speaker 2: Heaven and Earth together. 121 00:07:10,759 --> 00:07:15,000 Speaker 1: But that if you continue to push into that idea, 122 00:07:15,079 --> 00:07:20,279 you realize that everything has heaven and earth inside everything 123 00:07:20,319 --> 00:07:21,079 has heaven and earth. 124 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:23,360 Speaker 2: Relating is like a little temple. 125 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:26,839 Speaker 1: Right, everything is a little temple at a little revelation 126 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:29,720 from God. And like I said, it's only because we're 127 00:07:30,639 --> 00:07:33,759 kind of blase and bore that we don't see it. 128 00:07:35,199 --> 00:07:37,560 Speaker 2: So to bring it, to bring language that is a 129 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:39,920 little more let's. 130 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:44,120 Speaker 1: Say practical, you could say that heaven offers identity and 131 00:07:44,759 --> 00:07:46,319 earth offers variation. 132 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:50,079 Speaker 2: So let's go to the next slide. 133 00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:56,040 Speaker 1: So when God creates the world, he says a bunch 134 00:07:56,040 --> 00:07:59,160 of weird things. He does it a few times. He says, 135 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:03,319 let the land produce vegetation, seed bearing plants and trees 136 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:07,199 on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, 137 00:08:07,399 --> 00:08:10,199 according to their various kinds. It's such a weird way 138 00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:14,920 of phrasing it. So God doesn't we always think that 139 00:08:14,959 --> 00:08:16,040 God creates things. 140 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:18,240 Speaker 2: Actually, God in this case doesn't. 141 00:08:18,079 --> 00:08:23,399 Speaker 1: Create everything at least in this he basically gives a 142 00:08:23,439 --> 00:08:30,160 basic category and he says to Earth produce variation on 143 00:08:30,319 --> 00:08:35,679 this category. Right, So produce plants and the earth produces plants. 144 00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:39,399 But he says what's important is that the plant contains seed. 145 00:08:40,679 --> 00:08:46,399 It contains seed because seed is heaven. Right, seed is 146 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:50,240 an image of heaven inside. Why is seed an image 147 00:08:50,279 --> 00:08:54,519 of heaven? Because seed is a pattern of a plant. 148 00:08:55,279 --> 00:08:59,000 Speaker 2: Right. The seed isn't the plant. It's like a little dot. 149 00:09:00,279 --> 00:09:03,080 Speaker 1: And in that little dot there's the whole pattern of 150 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:05,879 the plant. And now it has to be put into 151 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:09,799 the earth, and it has to embody itself using the 152 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:13,480 potential of the earth. Right, that offers itself to the pattern, 153 00:09:14,279 --> 00:09:17,120 and that is what creates a particular plant. 154 00:09:17,639 --> 00:09:22,639 Speaker 2: Right. That image is true of everything, right, It's true of. 155 00:09:22,679 --> 00:09:30,240 Speaker 1: Everything has a pattern, and the pattern embodies itself and 156 00:09:30,279 --> 00:09:32,879 then manifests itself in variability. 157 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:34,600 Speaker 2: Okay. 158 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:38,960 Speaker 1: And so that's why it's very important to note when 159 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:42,679 you talk about fractals. Right. Already in this text, you 160 00:09:42,720 --> 00:09:47,000 can see that God is setting everything up in a fractal. 161 00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:51,000 He's providing the seed, right, He's providing the pattern. He says, 162 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:57,399 let the land produce vegetation, and let every version of 163 00:09:57,440 --> 00:09:59,039 that vegetation. 164 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:00,559 Speaker 2: Reproduce. 165 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:05,039 Speaker 1: What I'm saying, So, let the earth produce vegetation, and 166 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:10,320 let every plant then have in it a pattern that 167 00:10:10,399 --> 00:10:15,960 will reproduce itself and will have variation in it. 168 00:10:16,039 --> 00:10:17,559 Speaker 2: Like we'll take the earth. 169 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:19,799 Speaker 1: And create different versions, because let's say you have a 170 00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:22,480 maple tree. It's very practical. I know it's hard to 171 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:24,600 think this way, but it's very very practical. Right. So 172 00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:29,440 you have trees, right, and then you have variations on trees, 173 00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:33,600 and then you have a maple, and then you have 174 00:10:33,679 --> 00:10:37,440 variations on maples, and then you have the one maple 175 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:42,279 tree that is planted in your backyard, and that is 176 00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:45,879 a specific maple tree that is the joining of the 177 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:49,759 all these patterns, the pattern of tree, the pattern of maple, 178 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:54,480 of this particular kind of maple that is now a 179 00:10:54,720 --> 00:11:01,080 very very particular hard tree that is totally unique and 180 00:11:01,279 --> 00:11:04,759 is different from all the other trees. So it's both 181 00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:07,159 completely different from all the other trees, but it's all 182 00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:10,159 it's a manifestation of all these patterns that. 183 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:11,200 Speaker 2: It's participating in. 184 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:17,000 Speaker 1: Right. And so when God says that the earth produce vegetation, 185 00:11:18,279 --> 00:11:20,600 and then he's saying, now, the things that it's going 186 00:11:20,639 --> 00:11:22,960 to produce are going to repeat what I've just said, 187 00:11:23,320 --> 00:11:27,120 which is every plant, every plant is going to have 188 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:31,000 an identity and is going to have a variation, and 189 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:35,960 that is indefinite. There's an indefinite version of this, right, 190 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:37,480 There's no limit, and. 191 00:11:37,399 --> 00:11:40,440 Speaker 2: That's why it's very difficult if you. 192 00:11:40,480 --> 00:11:43,879 Speaker 1: Don't think fractically, it becomes very difficult to see some 193 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:49,039 of these patterns because they're always manifesting themselves, like they're 194 00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:52,159 like I call them cascading hierarchies. So there are all 195 00:11:52,159 --> 00:11:58,000 these hierarchies that are manifesting themselves simultaneously, and they're all valid, right, 196 00:11:58,039 --> 00:12:00,639 it's not like anything goes or anything as possible like 197 00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:06,440 these they're valid, they're true, but they're multiple, like at they're. 198 00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:07,919 Speaker 2: All multiple at the same time. 199 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:14,799 Speaker 1: So every single being that you recognize as being one 200 00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:18,039 has to be this joining of potential. 201 00:12:18,279 --> 00:12:23,600 Speaker 2: So I mean, let's do the battle right. 202 00:12:23,639 --> 00:12:28,240 Speaker 1: And so like you recognize, you recognize the purpose of 203 00:12:28,279 --> 00:12:31,000 this right, you recognize the name of it, you recognize 204 00:12:31,039 --> 00:12:34,279 the reason for it, You recognize that it's there for 205 00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:37,279 you to drink water, and you know that there are 206 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:39,440 many types of things that you could use to drink 207 00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:42,759 water with. But you have the capacity to both know 208 00:12:42,879 --> 00:12:47,639 that this is the same as like a ceramic cup, 209 00:12:47,679 --> 00:12:50,320 but it's also different and it has its own particularities 210 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:54,159 to it, but it participates in that pattern, and then 211 00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:57,840 you can you do it completely unconsciously. You can recognize 212 00:12:57,879 --> 00:13:00,879 all of the patterns and you know what it's for, 213 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:02,639 and you also know that it's not. 214 00:13:02,759 --> 00:13:04,279 Speaker 2: It's my water bottle and it's not his. 215 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:06,440 Speaker 1: Like that, you could have two on the table and 216 00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:08,600 you could know that they're different, and you could also 217 00:13:08,639 --> 00:13:13,279 know that they're the same, and you're completely fine doing that. 218 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:17,200 Speaker 2: It's completely normal for you to do that. 219 00:13:17,879 --> 00:13:22,000 Speaker 1: But once you start to think with fractals, you can 220 00:13:22,039 --> 00:13:26,279 start to see how this plays out, and especially how 221 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:30,320 it plays out in terms of groups of people, because 222 00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:32,360 that's the theme of the conference. The theme of the 223 00:13:32,399 --> 00:13:36,080 conference is fellowship in the spirit. 224 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:36,919 Speaker 2: So what are. 225 00:13:36,799 --> 00:13:41,440 Speaker 1: We talking about when we talk about a group that 226 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:46,320 has fellowship? How is it that Heaven acts on us? 227 00:13:47,399 --> 00:13:52,639 Is what type of causality does Heaven provide on groups? 228 00:13:53,039 --> 00:14:01,120 Now you've seen in terms of objects that Heaven provides identity, right, purpose, 229 00:14:01,799 --> 00:14:05,240 All these things are invisible. Right, you can't see the 230 00:14:05,279 --> 00:14:10,279 purpose of the bottle in the bottle. It's not there, right, 231 00:14:10,519 --> 00:14:13,480 it's in the purpose. And that's why this bottle could 232 00:14:13,519 --> 00:14:17,000 be used to This thing here could be used to 233 00:14:17,039 --> 00:14:19,559 do other things besides being a bottle. 234 00:14:20,120 --> 00:14:21,960 Speaker 2: Right, it could become a weapon very fast. 235 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:23,720 Speaker 1: If someone's running at me I could throw out of 236 00:14:23,759 --> 00:14:27,759 a sudden, it becomes a weapon. That's because the patterns 237 00:14:27,879 --> 00:14:31,799 are real, and they instantiate themselves this way in variation, 238 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:37,639 and what's real is mostly the patterns, right, The patterns 239 00:14:37,639 --> 00:14:41,039 are the things that are the most real about things. 240 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:43,720 And that's the first thing we have to flip in 241 00:14:43,799 --> 00:14:46,799 our mind when we're a materialist, is to realize that 242 00:14:46,879 --> 00:14:49,440 the world is anchored in logos. The world is not 243 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:54,840 anchored from below first, it's first anchored from above. It's 244 00:14:54,879 --> 00:14:58,399 anchored in purposes, it's anchored in names. It's anchored in 245 00:15:00,159 --> 00:15:05,080 reasons why things exist. And then those reasons find their instantiations. 246 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:08,759 They find their multiple instantiations in the world. And those 247 00:15:08,799 --> 00:15:13,360 are the ones that are actually quite unstable, right, the things, 248 00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:17,639 but down here below, they're actually quite variable. Things shift 249 00:15:17,679 --> 00:15:21,240 and change, right, The solidity is not is not down here. 250 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:25,279 Speaker 2: Hopefully that'll make sense once we look at groups. All right, 251 00:15:25,639 --> 00:15:27,679 So I'm gonna let's go to groups because. 252 00:15:28,039 --> 00:15:35,360 Speaker 1: I don't want to let's next slide please, all right. 253 00:15:34,159 --> 00:15:39,120 Speaker 4: All right, And so this is how in scripture in 254 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:44,600 the world, this is how heaven embodies itself. 255 00:15:44,279 --> 00:15:46,639 Speaker 2: Kind of comes down on us. 256 00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:50,000 Speaker 1: And if you know your Bible, you'll see that this 257 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:54,120 is the different levels of instantiation. And that's the best 258 00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:55,879 way to think about it, just to think about it 259 00:15:55,919 --> 00:15:57,840 as levels of embodiment. 260 00:15:58,519 --> 00:16:01,080 Speaker 2: And they're in de definite amounts of them. 261 00:16:01,759 --> 00:16:06,440 Speaker 1: Right, There are in definite shades of embodiment by which 262 00:16:06,519 --> 00:16:13,559 Heaven are purposes or identities find themselves in their variability, 263 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:16,879 find themselves in the world. In the Bible, the way 264 00:16:16,919 --> 00:16:21,679 it works is you have a revelation from God, right, 265 00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:27,480 and that's the first part. Whatever exists isn't in it. 266 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:31,559 It comes from above it. It comes from above. Even 267 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:35,279 this bottle is a revelation, right, because for me to 268 00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:39,039 recognize it. 269 00:16:37,519 --> 00:16:39,399 Speaker 2: It already has to be. 270 00:16:40,559 --> 00:16:43,360 Speaker 1: It comes from a purpose that isn't in the bottle. 271 00:16:43,399 --> 00:16:46,320 It comes from above the bottle. And it's the same 272 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:51,759 with everything. And that's why the relationship that humans have 273 00:16:51,879 --> 00:16:55,440 with God in scripture is revelation. 274 00:16:56,399 --> 00:16:56,559 Speaker 2: Right. 275 00:16:56,720 --> 00:17:00,320 Speaker 1: It comes to them, and it comes from above it, 276 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:02,240 and it is in some ways. 277 00:17:04,799 --> 00:17:11,839 Speaker 2: Can I say this it is mysterious, right, It. 278 00:17:11,759 --> 00:17:15,839 Speaker 1: Is mysterious because it doesn't have all the forms yet. 279 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:17,920 Speaker 2: So that's why the. 280 00:17:17,799 --> 00:17:20,240 Speaker 1: Glory of God, right, the glory of God in the 281 00:17:20,279 --> 00:17:26,599 Bible is represented often with images like light, like breath, 282 00:17:28,039 --> 00:17:33,039 like wind, sometimes been like darkness, right, because it's not 283 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:41,279 something yet, it's that which brings you beyond yourself. So 284 00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:45,640 that's how the revelation starts. And then then it comes 285 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:49,319 down from that. And then you have something like names. 286 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:53,720 So God speaks and then he gives names to things 287 00:17:53,759 --> 00:18:00,960 in the world. God chooses, God picks, right, all these 288 00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:06,079 things are invisible when I select something. When God selects Abraham, 289 00:18:06,759 --> 00:18:11,799 no one can see that. In Abraham, it's an invisible thing. 290 00:18:12,559 --> 00:18:16,519 God said this person, and nobody can tell yet what 291 00:18:16,559 --> 00:18:17,440 that's going to give. 292 00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:21,079 Speaker 2: It's just one guy, and God is just pointing and. 293 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:26,480 Speaker 1: Saying this kind of putting his finger and revealing something hidden, 294 00:18:26,599 --> 00:18:31,000 something secret about Abraham that we know now because we're 295 00:18:31,039 --> 00:18:33,519 thousands of years after and we now know what happened 296 00:18:33,559 --> 00:18:35,039 and everything that came through. 297 00:18:35,119 --> 00:18:39,039 Speaker 2: But when the revelation appears, right, it's secret. It's hidden. 298 00:18:39,599 --> 00:18:41,720 Speaker 1: If you think of the shape of the tabernacle, the 299 00:18:41,759 --> 00:18:44,039 shape of the temple, right, that's how it works. 300 00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:45,519 Speaker 2: There's this secret. 301 00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:50,960 Speaker 1: Place, this hidden place that is behind the veils, and 302 00:18:51,039 --> 00:18:55,480 that's where the revelation of God manifests itself. And from 303 00:18:55,519 --> 00:19:01,079 that the world unfurls in its multiplicity, and every level 304 00:19:01,279 --> 00:19:05,960 is a veil, right and an embodiment at the same time. 305 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:11,319 So in the Bible, one of the things that happens 306 00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:16,079 is that in some ways there's even there's a little 307 00:19:16,079 --> 00:19:20,960 bit of a resistance to embodiment. Even God doesn't want 308 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:27,440 to completely embody himself in things right away, because the 309 00:19:27,519 --> 00:19:33,279 problem with every embodiment is that it's a veil that 310 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:36,400 both reveals what's above and then separates you from what's 311 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:39,839 above at the same time. So what Saint Paul says, 312 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:43,759 like the law, it's like even Christ, you know that 313 00:19:43,799 --> 00:19:46,240 the law is given to you because of the weakness 314 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:48,359 of your hearts, Like that's why the law is given 315 00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:54,759 to you. If you had love, you wouldn't need the law, right, 316 00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:57,319 And if you had love, you wouldn't need the law, 317 00:19:57,359 --> 00:19:59,839 and you wouldn't need the tabernacle, and you wouldn't need 318 00:20:00,079 --> 00:20:02,039 you would all of these things would be contained and 319 00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:07,559 held up above. But then God condescends and then gives 320 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:11,079 us these multiple iterations, And so you can understand that 321 00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:16,279 the law is why is the law manifestation of heaven? Right? 322 00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:21,200 Speaker 2: The law is a manifestation of heaven because. 323 00:20:20,839 --> 00:20:28,640 Speaker 1: It manages purposes, right, it frames purposes, It says, okay, right, 324 00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:30,000 so you can't just. 325 00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:33,359 Speaker 2: Live in love of God and love of your neighbors. 326 00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:34,799 Speaker 1: So what I'm going to do is I'm going to 327 00:20:34,839 --> 00:20:37,759 tell you at a lower level how to embody that. 328 00:20:38,319 --> 00:20:41,720 And then I'm going to say, don't steal from your neighbor, 329 00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:46,400 don't take his wife, don't do these things that go 330 00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:51,440 against the purpose. Right, and with the laws not sufficient, 331 00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:54,920 then the embodiment's going to go down even more. 332 00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:56,519 Speaker 2: And then it's. 333 00:20:56,400 --> 00:21:00,640 Speaker 1: Going to be if you do this, then then I'm 334 00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:04,880 going to punish you because I want you to move 335 00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:07,200 towards the purpose. So if you do this, I'm going 336 00:21:07,279 --> 00:21:11,400 to bring you back towards the towards the real purpose. 337 00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:14,799 Speaker 2: And if that doesn't work, then not only that, but 338 00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:15,279 I'm going. 339 00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:19,400 Speaker 1: To create a police force that is going to enforce 340 00:21:19,559 --> 00:21:24,079 the law on you. Yeah, I wish you didn't need it, 341 00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:26,160 like you wish you were in like a nice community 342 00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:29,440 and everybody loves each other and we don't need a 343 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:34,880 police force. But the instantiation happens at a more and 344 00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:36,160 more embodied level. 345 00:21:36,599 --> 00:21:39,640 Speaker 2: Right, So the the. 346 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:42,960 Speaker 1: Revelation of Heaven slowly, you could say, embodies itself in 347 00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:47,440 the world and becomes more and more, becomes harder, comes harsher, 348 00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:50,799 and comes more multiple. Let's go to the next one, 349 00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:56,359 all right, And so the best way of understanding this 350 00:21:56,599 --> 00:22:03,759 is that Heaven provides influence. Influence is a kind of 351 00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:07,680 causality which we're not used to thinking about, but which 352 00:22:07,759 --> 00:22:12,640 is the one that, especially as conscious humans, we are 353 00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:13,880 constantly engaging in. 354 00:22:14,599 --> 00:22:14,920 Speaker 2: And so. 355 00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:23,440 Speaker 1: It provides an invisible motivation. So if I am, as say, 356 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:27,240 if I am in a basketball game, right, there's an 357 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:28,960 invisible reason why we're there. 358 00:22:29,799 --> 00:22:33,640 Speaker 2: That reason doesn't enforce itself with policemen. You don't have to, 359 00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:34,279 you don't. 360 00:22:34,079 --> 00:22:37,279 Speaker 1: Need to, you don't need to physically force people to play. 361 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:43,359 There's an invisible influence that is bringing people together towards 362 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:46,759 a purpose, and that is what provides the order. 363 00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:51,559 Speaker 2: And it's the same with any group, any any group 364 00:22:51,599 --> 00:22:52,359 that you're involved in. 365 00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:57,559 Speaker 1: That is the highest form of you could say, of causality, 366 00:22:57,960 --> 00:22:59,759 is a causality of influence. 367 00:23:01,079 --> 00:23:05,640 Speaker 2: Then as that influence comes down, right, it provides order. 368 00:23:06,079 --> 00:23:09,000 Speaker 1: But the lower it gets, you could say, on this hierarchy, 369 00:23:09,519 --> 00:23:12,640 the more it gets connected with Earth, the harder it's 370 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:15,240 going to get, the more explicit it's going to get, 371 00:23:15,519 --> 00:23:19,920 and then you're going to get more and more multiplicity, 372 00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:25,240 multiple laws, multiple examples of how that influence functions. 373 00:23:25,559 --> 00:23:26,960 Speaker 2: And that's when you get. 374 00:23:26,799 --> 00:23:29,519 Speaker 1: The comp that's when it gets complicated, because then you 375 00:23:29,599 --> 00:23:32,400 have to deal with exceptions, you have to deal with 376 00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:36,079 all of these differences, and you have to ultimately sometimes 377 00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:41,119 enforce the influence. Right in the Middle Ages, they had 378 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:45,279 this ordered society, which was that there are three tiers 379 00:23:45,319 --> 00:23:49,039 in the world. There are those that pray, there are 380 00:23:49,039 --> 00:23:53,200 those that fight, and there are those that work. That 381 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:56,000 was the order of society. The idea is that those 382 00:23:56,039 --> 00:23:59,400 that pray, they're at the top. Right, Why are they 383 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:03,319 at the top, right at the top, because they provide 384 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:06,799 a type of influence which is invisible. 385 00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:09,799 Speaker 2: They don't have weapons. 386 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:17,079 Speaker 1: They're providing examples, they're providing guidance, they're providing you with direction, 387 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:18,960 with motivation. 388 00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:22,039 Speaker 2: But all of these are the influence of heaven. 389 00:24:22,079 --> 00:24:26,880 Speaker 1: They're all invisible, and as you move down, then you 390 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:31,000 have things embodying themselves in the world. So those that fight, 391 00:24:32,599 --> 00:24:36,720 now they take that influence, they take those purposes. 392 00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:40,720 Speaker 2: And now they embody them in laws. They embody them. 393 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:50,319 Speaker 1: In regulations, in actual people like magistrates, all the people 394 00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:54,400 that run our societies. And then ultimately, like I said, 395 00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:56,519 at the bottom or at the limit of that is 396 00:24:56,519 --> 00:24:59,359 something like the military, the police force. 397 00:24:59,559 --> 00:25:03,960 Speaker 2: That are enforcing the borders. But you need that full 398 00:25:04,519 --> 00:25:08,160 connection with what is above. Let's go to the next one, 399 00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:10,759 all right. 400 00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:13,400 Speaker 1: So the best way to think about it is to 401 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:14,799 think about it in terms of a nation. 402 00:25:19,039 --> 00:25:21,720 Speaker 2: I can't even read that slide, can you read it? 403 00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:23,079 Speaker 1: All? 404 00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:24,240 Speaker 2: Right? 405 00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:32,319 Speaker 1: So a nation has an angel, right, it has a spirit, 406 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:38,240 that is, it has an invisible reason why people exist together. 407 00:25:39,559 --> 00:25:42,799 It can then be exemplified. But it actually is very mysterious, 408 00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:45,440 you know. And Paul was talking about that this morning. 409 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:48,599 He was saying, why are we here? I don't totally 410 00:25:49,079 --> 00:25:53,279 can't completely put it into words, right, But that's also 411 00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:56,400 true of all the things actually that we do, is 412 00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:59,920 that there's a mystery behind all things that have identity. 413 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:04,039 Speaker 2: There's something spiritual in the sense that it is invisible. 414 00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:11,359 Speaker 1: It doesn't yet have anybody, it doesn't yet have any explication, 415 00:26:11,799 --> 00:26:14,680 it doesn't have multiplicity. 416 00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:21,640 Speaker 2: It's it's this invisible influence we tend as humans. 417 00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:24,799 Speaker 1: We tend to want to embody that in a point, 418 00:26:25,799 --> 00:26:26,799 in one person. 419 00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:30,680 Speaker 2: That's why most groups, if they're big enough, will. 420 00:26:30,559 --> 00:26:36,000 Speaker 1: End up having a president, a leader, a chairman, however 421 00:26:36,039 --> 00:26:38,680 you want to phrase it. We have this tendency to 422 00:26:38,799 --> 00:26:42,480 want to see this spirit kind of come down and 423 00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:47,079 manifest itself in a person. And the reason is because 424 00:26:48,759 --> 00:26:55,839 that person can then exercise a more explicit authority. Right, 425 00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:58,799 they can exercise this, they can manifest the spirit of 426 00:26:58,839 --> 00:27:04,079 the group for us. Right, they can become exemplars, they 427 00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:07,480 become examples. Examples is a good way of understanding how 428 00:27:07,519 --> 00:27:12,720 Heaven acts, right, because I's say I am trying to 429 00:27:12,759 --> 00:27:16,680 teach you something. I do it once as an example, 430 00:27:18,599 --> 00:27:20,920 and then you're gonna do it a thousand times. 431 00:27:22,079 --> 00:27:24,920 Speaker 2: Right, But I'm there to provide the example. I'm there. 432 00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:28,279 Speaker 1: But then that happens at all these different levels. So 433 00:27:28,319 --> 00:27:31,640 we tend to want to embody and there's a danger 434 00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:31,960 in that. 435 00:27:32,079 --> 00:27:33,119 Speaker 2: Right. By the way, if you. 436 00:27:33,079 --> 00:27:35,640 Speaker 1: Again, if you know your Bible, when the Israelites wanted 437 00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:39,119 a king, what did the prophet say? The prophet said, ah, 438 00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:43,240 you sure you want to embody that in a one person, right, 439 00:27:43,319 --> 00:27:46,160 because then you have all these problems that can happen, 440 00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:51,279 which is that person can start to exercise too much influence, 441 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:52,799 too much authority. 442 00:27:52,759 --> 00:27:53,920 Speaker 2: You know, et cetera. 443 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:56,359 Speaker 1: Think of all the cults, think of all the gurus, 444 00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:59,920 think of all of these problems. When you embody the 445 00:28:00,039 --> 00:28:02,559 purpose of something in the one person, there's a danger, 446 00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:05,400 but it offers a lot. Actually, it also offers a lot. 447 00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:07,680 So there's always this weird thing in the Bible. It's 448 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:11,319 weird because on the one hand, God says you shouldn't 449 00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:13,200 want a king, but then when they do have a king, 450 00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:15,480 then it's like, the king is great, the king is 451 00:28:15,519 --> 00:28:17,160 the son of God, the king is on these six 452 00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:19,200 It's like, what's going on and it's these two. It's 453 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:23,119 this tension of this resistance to embodiment, but then also 454 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:26,240 the advantage of what happens when you're able to embody 455 00:28:26,559 --> 00:28:31,680 and then that becomes true right at every. 456 00:28:31,039 --> 00:28:31,640 Speaker 2: Level of that. 457 00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:37,240 Speaker 1: So any group that you have, usually if you start 458 00:28:37,319 --> 00:28:40,480 some group, and it's probably true of this little corner, 459 00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:43,440 it stouts art. It start, it starts out with an 460 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:48,000 intuition of something that binds us together. We don't totally 461 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:52,839 it's like it's it's invisible. We can see it's motivating us, 462 00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:57,480 but we don't yet have a We haven't captured it, right, 463 00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:01,240 It hasn't landed, it hasn't embodied itself yet. So what 464 00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:04,359 do we want to do to embody it? We need something, 465 00:29:05,319 --> 00:29:08,480 need a name to start with that, right, So you 466 00:29:08,519 --> 00:29:12,400 need a Name's. 467 00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:11,200 Speaker 2: Find a name. 468 00:29:11,279 --> 00:29:13,440 Speaker 1: Once you have a name, that name will in some 469 00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:16,599 ways limit already even in the name, like it'll tend 470 00:29:16,599 --> 00:29:21,279 to limit what that how that spirit is embodying himself. 471 00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:23,759 You might find when you find a name for something 472 00:29:24,279 --> 00:29:28,359 that you actually already are excluding some people. Some people 473 00:29:28,359 --> 00:29:30,480 are like, oh no, no, no, that's not what I thought 474 00:29:30,519 --> 00:29:37,519 it was. You're already constraining this spiritual influence into the world. Right, 475 00:29:38,759 --> 00:29:42,079 And so then you want all the kinds of things 476 00:29:42,079 --> 00:29:43,200 that provide influence. 477 00:29:43,279 --> 00:29:46,880 Speaker 2: What do you want? You want a motto something like that? 478 00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:51,519 What's a motto? Auto is more than a name. It's 479 00:29:51,519 --> 00:29:52,720 like a little phrase. 480 00:29:52,799 --> 00:29:55,279 Speaker 1: You want to make it really succinct, and you want 481 00:29:55,319 --> 00:29:59,400 to make it precise enough but open enough so that 482 00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:03,160 it it looks like it's embodying the intuition that we 483 00:30:03,319 --> 00:30:05,640 had of what the group is about. 484 00:30:07,519 --> 00:30:09,359 Speaker 2: Right, and so nations will do that. 485 00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:12,119 Speaker 1: You can have a flag, you can have all kinds 486 00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:15,359 of things that will kind of manifest the fact. 487 00:30:15,119 --> 00:30:16,920 Speaker 2: That this thing exists. 488 00:30:18,559 --> 00:30:23,400 Speaker 1: But then as the group becomes bigger, right, it becomes 489 00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:27,680 more settled, et cetera, then it's going to start to 490 00:30:27,799 --> 00:30:30,160 embody itself in all these different ways. 491 00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:31,640 Speaker 2: You're going to need to. 492 00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:38,400 Speaker 1: Have rules protocols for your meetings, and let's say for 493 00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:42,319 the estuary, right, is the protocol? 494 00:30:44,079 --> 00:30:46,039 Speaker 2: Is that a good thing? Or is it a bad 495 00:30:46,079 --> 00:30:52,200 thing for a conversation to have a protocol? Yes, that's right, 496 00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:53,000 that's the right answer. 497 00:30:55,799 --> 00:31:01,480 Speaker 1: The answer is it does something having a protocol for discussion, right, 498 00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:05,880 It formalizes the relationship. And so what it does is 499 00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:11,160 it offers certain it crystallizes certain possibilities, and it excludes others. 500 00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:14,640 Speaker 2: So sometimes it can be good and sometimes it can 501 00:31:15,039 --> 00:31:15,440 be bad. 502 00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:17,880 Speaker 1: If I'm having coffee with a friend that I haven't 503 00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:20,359 seen for ten years and he says, well, we're going 504 00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:25,720 to have a protocol for our discussion, no thank you, right, 505 00:31:26,039 --> 00:31:29,000 no thank you. But if I go to a board 506 00:31:29,039 --> 00:31:31,960 meeting and everybody is hanging out and sitting and talking 507 00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:35,359 about everything, and like you're there for three hours, You're like, 508 00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:38,000 please give me a protocol for this meeting, because it 509 00:31:38,079 --> 00:31:39,680 is driving me absolutely crazy. 510 00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:40,640 Speaker 2: Right, And so. 511 00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:45,599 Speaker 1: These levels of embodiment, they're not about good or bad. 512 00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:48,119 Speaker 2: They're about what they do right, what they offer. 513 00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:51,079 Speaker 1: And so one of the things that's going to happen 514 00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:54,880 as the group persists is that you're going to have 515 00:31:55,000 --> 00:32:00,440 people that are going to exemplify exceptions. 516 00:31:59,519 --> 00:32:00,759 Speaker 2: To what the group is. 517 00:32:01,839 --> 00:32:04,640 Speaker 1: So you have people that are going to kind of 518 00:32:05,359 --> 00:32:07,519 be pushing it what and you're gonna say, well, I'm 519 00:32:07,559 --> 00:32:09,440 not sure that that's what this group is about. 520 00:32:09,519 --> 00:32:11,640 Speaker 2: I'm not sure that this is what the purpose is. 521 00:32:11,759 --> 00:32:13,839 And then you have to have to decide what you 522 00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:15,200 do with those people. 523 00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:21,799 Speaker 1: Do you punish them, do you eject them? 524 00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:22,119 Speaker 2: Right? 525 00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:26,720 Speaker 1: And so in a nation, obviously that becomes quite strict. 526 00:32:26,799 --> 00:32:38,240 It becomes ultimately laws, police forces, prisons, executioners. Right, it 527 00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:41,799 becomes pretty intense. And the question is, again is that 528 00:32:41,839 --> 00:32:45,720 good or bad? It just is right, It's just how 529 00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:49,799 things progress. Do you wish most of the time, Like, 530 00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:53,240 do you wish that you didn't need police and that 531 00:32:53,319 --> 00:32:55,240 we could all just live together in harmony and love 532 00:32:55,279 --> 00:32:59,160 each other. Of course, obviously that's what we kind of 533 00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:01,000 all want to be closer to heaven. 534 00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:04,079 Speaker 2: It's kind of normal we all kind of want that. 535 00:33:05,519 --> 00:33:09,119 Speaker 1: We naturally desire to be closer to the intuition of 536 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:13,440 the reason of why we're together, Like we naturally wanted 537 00:33:13,519 --> 00:33:18,519 to be completely natural and intuitive to participate in the 538 00:33:18,559 --> 00:33:20,039 groups that we participate in. 539 00:33:20,759 --> 00:33:22,960 Speaker 2: But we also realize, especially. 540 00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:25,440 Speaker 1: If the groups get bigger and if they become more formalized, 541 00:33:25,559 --> 00:33:31,079 that at some point the gadflies can prevent. 542 00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:33,880 Speaker 2: The group from existing. And so you need to have 543 00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:36,519 these different levels of enforcement. 544 00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:40,839 Speaker 1: Okay, and so this is like and all of these 545 00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:47,200 things are happening fractally, right, So every aspect of what 546 00:33:47,279 --> 00:33:49,920 I said also has this pattern. 547 00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:52,960 Speaker 2: So think of a police force as a good example. 548 00:33:54,319 --> 00:33:56,160 So the police force plays a certain role. 549 00:33:56,039 --> 00:34:00,000 Speaker 1: In this based huge pattern, right, in some ways very embodied. 550 00:34:00,519 --> 00:34:05,160 They're really there to like physically physically hold. 551 00:34:04,839 --> 00:34:08,440 Speaker 2: People down or physically eject. 552 00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:12,039 Speaker 1: People so that they don't harm the purpose of the group. 553 00:34:12,119 --> 00:34:15,559 Now that's like very material, right, But it's always based 554 00:34:15,599 --> 00:34:16,440 on influence. 555 00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:19,880 Speaker 2: It's always based on laws. The police people aren't the 556 00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:22,079 one making the laws. They shouldn't be. That's why we 557 00:34:22,119 --> 00:34:25,480 have these separations of powers. They're there to enforce the laws. 558 00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:27,920 The people who make the laws shouldn't be the people 559 00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:30,000 that enforce them. There should be used to be different 560 00:34:30,079 --> 00:34:33,599 levels or else it doesn't work. But even the police. 561 00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:37,599 Speaker 1: Force itself has the same pattern. Right, So the captain 562 00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:40,519 of the police force, however you want to call it, the. 563 00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:42,599 Speaker 2: Captain of the police force, isn't out there. 564 00:34:42,559 --> 00:34:47,719 Speaker 1: Putting handcuffs on people, right, He's not doing the things 565 00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:55,480 he is providing authority, He's providing influence, right, He's providing 566 00:34:56,039 --> 00:35:00,360 reward and punishment for his own people that are in 567 00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:01,599 the in the hierarchy. 568 00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:06,039 Speaker 2: And then they are at different levels, they'll be enforcing 569 00:35:06,079 --> 00:35:07,480 it in different ways. Right. 570 00:35:07,519 --> 00:35:11,360 Speaker 1: So you have a detective that is doing the more 571 00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:13,880 intellectual work that is kind of trying to figure out 572 00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:15,800 what's going on, trying to find the criminal doing this. 573 00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:18,400 But the detective might not be the guy who actually 574 00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:19,880 puts the handcuffs on the criminal. 575 00:35:20,039 --> 00:35:21,320 Speaker 2: Like he's not going to be the. 576 00:35:22,119 --> 00:35:26,559 Speaker 1: Actual physical brute that goes out and stops the people. 577 00:35:26,599 --> 00:35:32,280 So everything has that pattern, right, the pattern that's why 578 00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:37,719 it's fractal, Right, It it reproduces itself in in all 579 00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:42,559 the different the different levels of the groups that we participate. 580 00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:43,280 Speaker 2: In, all right, And so. 581 00:35:45,519 --> 00:35:49,960 Speaker 1: You can so I've in some ways represented it a 582 00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:54,480 little negatively right, this embodiment, and you can understand why 583 00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:59,480 there are a lot of traditions that represent this embodiment 584 00:35:59,639 --> 00:36:01,519 in some ways as being negative. 585 00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:02,159 Speaker 2: Right. 586 00:36:02,199 --> 00:36:05,079 Speaker 1: That is, in someone's the gnostic type of approach, where 587 00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:10,000 this idea that the more you move towards embodiment, the 588 00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:16,519 more you move towards evil, fragmentation, multiple multiplicity, the more you. 589 00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:18,000 Speaker 2: Move towards illusion. 590 00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:21,840 Speaker 1: Right, Why would it be that the lower you go 591 00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:23,800 on this you move towards illusion. 592 00:36:25,199 --> 00:36:29,039 Speaker 2: Because all the examples they're like veils. 593 00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:33,760 Speaker 1: So if you if you just look at one maple 594 00:36:34,199 --> 00:36:39,000 in your yard and you analyze the one maple, it 595 00:36:39,039 --> 00:36:41,440 can prevent you from understanding. 596 00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:42,159 Speaker 2: The category of maple. 597 00:36:42,199 --> 00:36:45,320 Speaker 1: You have to kind of pull back and see all 598 00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:49,000 the examples that are multiple versions of the same pattern. 599 00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:51,639 Speaker 2: So if you're too close to multiplicity, if you're too 600 00:36:51,679 --> 00:36:52,480 close to like. 601 00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:56,360 Speaker 1: The bottom of the pyramid, then you then you don't 602 00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:59,960 know what's going on right in the society. If you're 603 00:37:00,119 --> 00:37:05,039 too close to the bottom of the pyramid, it's not 604 00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:08,880 usually not very good for you, right, because you end 605 00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:12,079 up being the person that's constantly breaking the rules. 606 00:37:12,599 --> 00:37:14,119 Speaker 2: You don't understand. 607 00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:17,639 Speaker 1: What's happening to you, you're constantly being acted upon right 608 00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:20,079 by those that are above you. You're in some way 609 00:37:20,079 --> 00:37:22,159 as a victim. You become a victim of the system, 610 00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:25,679 you become, you know, a marginal person in the system. 611 00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:28,199 Speaker 2: And so there's a there's a reason. 612 00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:31,719 Speaker 1: Right. So if let's say, as Christians, we look at 613 00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:35,440 the Hindu cast system and we think that's abhorrent, right, 614 00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:39,119 but there's there's you have to understand why people come 615 00:37:39,159 --> 00:37:39,960 to that conclusion. 616 00:37:40,559 --> 00:37:42,880 Speaker 2: Why people come to the conclusion that the lower you 617 00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:43,920 are on. 618 00:37:44,119 --> 00:37:49,440 Speaker 1: This massive hierarchy with the priestly casts at the top, 619 00:37:49,559 --> 00:37:52,079 and then the warrior cast, and then the worker cast, 620 00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:55,880 and then people that are just being acted upon at 621 00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:59,159 the bottom, you can kind of understand why they tend 622 00:37:59,199 --> 00:38:02,000 to think up good down bad. 623 00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:05,480 Speaker 2: Pretty simple. Lower you are, the more it means that 624 00:38:05,559 --> 00:38:07,599 you are living. 625 00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:10,239 Speaker 1: The consequences of some sin or some error that you've 626 00:38:10,559 --> 00:38:13,079 that you've done, or that your past life or whatever. 627 00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:16,719 So now you're just being acted upon like you're close 628 00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:20,559 to chaos and everything. So it's kind of understandable. 629 00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:26,559 Speaker 2: But ha, Luckily for us, I hope you think that. 630 00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:29,440 Speaker 1: Lucky for us, we have this crazy guy, that crazy guy, 631 00:38:29,599 --> 00:38:34,000 this this this this crazy moment where someone revealed to 632 00:38:34,119 --> 00:38:39,400 us how this can be transformed into something more, how 633 00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:45,199 in fact, it is possible that all of the whole 634 00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:49,079 pyramid of being, all of the way that God reveals 635 00:38:49,119 --> 00:38:54,199 himself in the world, that those veils you could say 636 00:38:54,559 --> 00:38:57,880 they're luminous, right, their veils of their light. 637 00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:00,400 Speaker 2: That's not they're not veils. Actually you can think of like 638 00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:01,360 they're actually. 639 00:39:01,079 --> 00:39:04,599 Speaker 1: Just light that's moving down and manifesting itself in all 640 00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:06,039 the different parts. 641 00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:10,880 Speaker 2: And one of the mysteries that Christ. 642 00:39:10,599 --> 00:39:13,159 Speaker 1: Revealed to us, you know, and there was inklings of 643 00:39:13,159 --> 00:39:15,480 that before Christ, obviously, but I think Christ did. 644 00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:16,159 Speaker 2: Reveal it to us. 645 00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:22,880 Speaker 1: In the best way is to understand this relationship of 646 00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:26,599 Heaven and Earth as a loving relationship, rights as the 647 00:39:26,639 --> 00:39:31,559 relationship between a lover between two lovers, and this in 648 00:39:31,559 --> 00:39:38,679 some ways understanding that Heaven needs Earth to manifest itself 649 00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:43,840 in because Heaven is nothing without Earth, like it's just 650 00:39:44,679 --> 00:39:48,559 in the air. It's just Actually it's interesting that you 651 00:39:48,639 --> 00:39:52,360 know that the word for Able in the Bible, Able 652 00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:53,199 that was killed. 653 00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:54,840 Speaker 2: By Caine is like breath. 654 00:39:56,119 --> 00:39:59,639 Speaker 1: But it's like the wispy breath that just fades, It 655 00:39:59,679 --> 00:40:02,920 doesn't find body right, that just is an idea that 656 00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:09,519 floats off and doesn't find its roots, but that in fact, 657 00:40:10,559 --> 00:40:15,199 what Christ reveals to us is that these two opposites, right, 658 00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:19,800 they can exist in a loving relationship, and that loving 659 00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:23,159 relationship is a sacrificial relationship. 660 00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:25,480 Speaker 2: And so you realize. 661 00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:28,840 Speaker 1: That in fact, the way that it works is that 662 00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:33,239 when spirit, the spirit of the group manifests itself at 663 00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:36,760 all the different levels, it is also the spirit of 664 00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:41,679 the group giving itself to the group, right, offering itself 665 00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:45,960 and in some ways yielding to multiplicity on purpose. 666 00:40:46,679 --> 00:40:48,079 Speaker 2: Right, there is a kind. 667 00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:53,000 Speaker 1: Of flexibility that happens in groups where the purpose of 668 00:40:53,039 --> 00:40:58,679 the groups also gets adapted to each personal reason why 669 00:40:58,719 --> 00:41:01,280 you're here, and that that is actually not It can 670 00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:04,639 be a relationship of love. It doesn't have to be 671 00:41:05,119 --> 00:41:08,960 a relationship of just this top down authority that. 672 00:41:09,599 --> 00:41:12,440 Speaker 2: Just comes down that doesn't completely go away. 673 00:41:13,039 --> 00:41:15,800 Speaker 1: But there's also another vision of that, which is the 674 00:41:16,119 --> 00:41:17,360 highest vision, which is the. 675 00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:20,400 Speaker 2: One of understanding the world as sacrifice. 676 00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:22,719 Speaker 1: You know, you've heard Joan Peterson talk about it, or 677 00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:25,760 I've talked about it, of understanding the world as this 678 00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:30,559 self sacrificial act, and that as God emptying himself into 679 00:41:30,599 --> 00:41:31,320 the world. 680 00:41:31,079 --> 00:41:34,119 Speaker 2: In order to sustain it, in order to hold it together. 681 00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:43,360 Speaker 1: And once you encounter groups like that, you realize, and 682 00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:45,719 you realize it in practice, right, And I'm sure all 683 00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:47,880 of you have had that experience when you realize when 684 00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:51,800 you find a group where the leader of the group 685 00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:57,400 is giving himself to those that are part of his group, 686 00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:02,960 you realize immediately that those are the strongest, most real 687 00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:07,840 groups that exist, right, and that those groups that only 688 00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:11,559 act top down right in this kind of authoritarian way, 689 00:42:11,679 --> 00:42:17,880 that they tend to be fragile, right, because the parts 690 00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:21,840 that are below right. So a good example is in 691 00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:27,000 a prison, if the prisoners could escape, they would, right. 692 00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:30,920 They're not there on their own will, like, they're not 693 00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:32,280 there because they want to be there. 694 00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:34,639 Speaker 2: They're there because they're forced to be there. But that 695 00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:37,440 also means that it's a very very fragile system. 696 00:42:38,039 --> 00:42:42,000 Speaker 1: But if you have a loving family, the people that 697 00:42:42,079 --> 00:42:44,840 are there at the table eating together, if you have 698 00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:47,199 a loving church, the people that are there are there 699 00:42:47,239 --> 00:42:50,639 because they want to be there. They're there because the 700 00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:55,679 unity that the group provides is more than their individual self. 701 00:42:56,039 --> 00:43:00,079 It is bringing them closer to Heaven, right, it is 702 00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:04,920 giving them a glimpse of heaven, because I can see 703 00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:09,960 the fellowship as an image of the heavenly influence that 704 00:43:10,039 --> 00:43:11,079 comes from above. 705 00:43:11,599 --> 00:43:12,440 Speaker 2: And of course the. 706 00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:14,840 Speaker 1: Church is meant to be that's right. The way that 707 00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:18,760 Saint Paul describes the church is exactly that. But there 708 00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:22,320 are ways in which we can experience that in every 709 00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:24,280 single one of the relationships that. 710 00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:26,880 Speaker 2: We engage in. It doesn't have to just be the church. 711 00:43:27,599 --> 00:43:27,760 Speaker 1: Right. 712 00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:29,320 Speaker 2: You can do that in a business. 713 00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:33,480 Speaker 1: Right. If you do this in a business, you will 714 00:43:33,599 --> 00:43:37,480 have you won't have to be afraid that your employees 715 00:43:37,519 --> 00:43:42,280 are stealing from you. Right, because if you can create 716 00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:48,039 that loving relationship, that exchange of love, then you will 717 00:43:48,159 --> 00:43:51,719 have a strong body and a strong commitment from the 718 00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:55,760 members into the body. And so I mean, obviously, you guys, 719 00:43:56,320 --> 00:43:58,679 I mean none of you, nobody forced you to come here. 720 00:43:59,079 --> 00:44:02,239 If you're all paying to come here, you're all you've 721 00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:05,719 all come underwill and so, but you also all have 722 00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:08,719 that intuition that there is this something, there's a reason. 723 00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:12,719 Speaker 2: Obviously you wouldn't be here if there wasn't some glimmering. 724 00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:15,599 Speaker 1: Mysterious reason that was binding you together, even if you 725 00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:19,480 can't completely put a finger on it. And even if 726 00:44:20,679 --> 00:44:24,199 this is actually interesting too, because everybody probably has. 727 00:44:24,119 --> 00:44:27,280 Speaker 2: Their own reason for coming here, right. 728 00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:32,880 Speaker 1: And none of those reasons are the ultimate reason why 729 00:44:32,920 --> 00:44:36,360 the group exists, but they're they kind of How can 730 00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:38,400 I say that they're downstreamed from that reason? 731 00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:40,639 Speaker 2: They have to be, or else you wouldn't be here. 732 00:44:42,519 --> 00:44:45,559 Speaker 1: So you can trust that even if you don't totally 733 00:44:45,599 --> 00:44:48,440 get it, Like you know, Paul is like, what is this? 734 00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:50,159 Speaker 2: Like what are we doing? You don't totally get it. 735 00:44:50,199 --> 00:44:52,800 The body is real, you know it's real. You're here. 736 00:44:53,079 --> 00:44:55,639 Speaker 1: You've all come here, and you all have your own reasons. 737 00:44:55,760 --> 00:44:58,559 But when you talk and you experience the fellowship with others, 738 00:44:58,719 --> 00:45:01,800 you realize that those reasons a complimentary and that those 739 00:45:01,880 --> 00:45:06,000 reasons are like members of a body that are working 740 00:45:06,039 --> 00:45:09,519 together right, as Saint Paul says, that are well fit 741 00:45:09,599 --> 00:45:12,519 together and working together towards. 742 00:45:12,159 --> 00:45:13,159 Speaker 2: The unity in love. 743 00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:17,239 Speaker 1: So I hope I didn't stretch you guys to your 744 00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:18,039 complete limit. 745 00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:21,480 Speaker 2: I hope this was helpful. I think we're gonna Can 746 00:45:21,519 --> 00:45:22,719 we take a few questions? 747 00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:24,880 Speaker 1: I think we were supposed to write cale are we 748 00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:29,760 taking some? We're not sorry, no questions. You can ask 749 00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:32,199 all the questions you want I'm gonna now that I've 750 00:45:32,239 --> 00:45:34,559 given my talk, I'm gonna be way more relaxed so you. 751 00:45:34,559 --> 00:45:36,400 Speaker 2: Can all come talk to me. Help me. Happy to 752 00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:38,039 talk to you, all right. Thank there was. 753 00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:42,719 Speaker 1: If you enjoy these videos and podcasts, please go to 754 00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:45,440 the Symbolic world dot com website and see how you 755 00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:46,679 can support what we're doing. 756 00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:50,199 Speaker 2: There are multiple subscriber tiers with perks. There are apparel 757 00:45:50,199 --> 00:45:52,679 in books to purchase. So go to the symbolic world 758 00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:54,840 dot com and thank you for your support.