WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.120 --> 00:00:09.720 Oh gee is folks, it's showtime. People say good money 2 00:00:09.759 --> 00:00:10.599 to see this movie. 3 00:00:10.919 --> 00:00:13.080 When they go out to a theater, they want clod 4 00:00:13.160 --> 00:00:17.239 sodas pop popcorn in No monsters in the Projection Booths. 5 00:00:17.359 --> 00:00:19.199 Everyone for tend podcasting isn't boring. 6 00:00:20.239 --> 00:00:38.119 Got it off? 7 00:00:39.439 --> 00:00:42.000 Hey, folks, welcome to a special episode of The Projection Booth. 8 00:00:42.000 --> 00:00:44.600 I'm your host Mike White. On this episode, it is 9 00:00:44.640 --> 00:00:47.880 the return of d Harlan Wilson. He is while he's 10 00:00:47.920 --> 00:00:50.439 an author. We've talked with him a few times before, 11 00:00:50.479 --> 00:00:52.679 I think at least twice before, and he's back for 12 00:00:52.719 --> 00:00:56.320 a third time and we are talking about Strangelove Country, 13 00:00:56.600 --> 00:01:01.240 science fiction, filmosophy, and the Cabrician consciousness. It's a heavy title, 14 00:01:01.359 --> 00:01:04.400 it's a great book. Had a great time talking with 15 00:01:04.439 --> 00:01:08.040 mister Wilson, and I hope you enjoyed this interview. Karland, 16 00:01:08.079 --> 00:01:10.719 tell me how did Strangeloft County come about? 17 00:01:11.480 --> 00:01:14.799 I initially conceived of it. I was looking for a 18 00:01:14.840 --> 00:01:18.319 new book project to do about jeez. It's probably during 19 00:01:18.319 --> 00:01:24.200 COVID and I had put out a book on Minority 20 00:01:24.200 --> 00:01:30.760 Report the film through Liverpool University Press's Constellation series, which 21 00:01:30.799 --> 00:01:33.079 I think I was in limbo for a bit, but 22 00:01:33.200 --> 00:01:35.000 they're starting to get it going again. There was a 23 00:01:35.000 --> 00:01:39.400 lot of administrative overhaul there. At any rate, they came 24 00:01:39.439 --> 00:01:42.480 out with a new series call I Think It's just 25 00:01:42.519 --> 00:01:47.200 Stanley Kubrick Studies. And I saw that and it was new, 26 00:01:47.519 --> 00:01:49.680 and I'm always looking for kind of new series in 27 00:01:49.719 --> 00:01:52.599 my field to write for, and I've long wanted to 28 00:01:52.599 --> 00:01:54.680 do a book on Kubrick, so that was the spark. 29 00:01:55.519 --> 00:01:59.200 The content of the book came about thereafter. A lot 30 00:01:59.280 --> 00:02:03.040 of it is about out I read Kubrick's futurist cinema 31 00:02:03.079 --> 00:02:08.919 through the lens of desire, simply put, and theoretically speaking, 32 00:02:09.000 --> 00:02:14.039 desire accounting for a little bit of avant garde film 33 00:02:14.120 --> 00:02:18.080 studies and theory. And I don't know, it just kind 34 00:02:18.080 --> 00:02:21.680 of came together and I wrote it for this series. 35 00:02:21.879 --> 00:02:24.680 Usually with books of this nature, takes about anywhere from 36 00:02:24.680 --> 00:02:26.759 six to twelve months for research and then the same 37 00:02:26.800 --> 00:02:29.759 for writing. But it actually didn't work out with Liverpool 38 00:02:29.840 --> 00:02:33.879 University Press. I took certain creative liberties. You've read it. 39 00:02:33.879 --> 00:02:37.479 It's a work of scholarship formatted like a formal work 40 00:02:37.479 --> 00:02:41.000 of scholarship, but I do take some novelistic lines of 41 00:02:41.000 --> 00:02:46.199 flight let's say it, and they didn't like that. Personally. 42 00:02:46.439 --> 00:02:50.080 I think archival research is wonderful, but I can't sist still, 43 00:02:50.120 --> 00:02:55.319 and it's just not for me. And Kubrickians, especially Kubrickan scholars, 44 00:02:55.400 --> 00:02:59.479 tend to be very fond of our chival research, and 45 00:02:59.520 --> 00:03:01.639 I think they wanted more of that from me, and 46 00:03:01.759 --> 00:03:05.840 mine was pretty much the opposite of that, much more structuralist, 47 00:03:05.919 --> 00:03:09.599 let's say so. It was a little tense there for 48 00:03:09.639 --> 00:03:13.080 a while, and then eventually we went our separate ways. 49 00:03:13.080 --> 00:03:16.360 It's fine. I still I'm the reviews editor for the 50 00:03:16.560 --> 00:03:20.319 journal Extrapolation, which is published by Liverpool University Press. Everything 51 00:03:20.319 --> 00:03:23.919 it's cool. But I ended up publishing it with Stalking 52 00:03:23.919 --> 00:03:27.159 Horse Press, which is they published one of my books 53 00:03:27.199 --> 00:03:30.560 prior to that, called The Psychotic Doctor Schreber, a few 54 00:03:30.599 --> 00:03:34.159 years before. I think it was two tenty seventeen, and 55 00:03:34.319 --> 00:03:38.280 that was the right fit. They understood exactly what I 56 00:03:38.360 --> 00:03:43.039 was doing, and geez, it took about a week turnaround 57 00:03:43.240 --> 00:03:45.879 once I figured out where to place it. But again, 58 00:03:45.960 --> 00:03:47.439 it was kind of tense at the time. I was 59 00:03:47.479 --> 00:03:50.680 a little angry, but then I took a step back 60 00:03:50.680 --> 00:03:53.960 and realized it was the right thing to do. Yeah, 61 00:03:54.000 --> 00:03:54.919 that's how it came about. 62 00:03:55.639 --> 00:03:59.960 It's a fascinating approach to it, and I really appreciate 63 00:04:00.080 --> 00:04:01.960 the approach that you took that it wasn't just so 64 00:04:02.680 --> 00:04:06.680 cut and dry that it actually is personal while being 65 00:04:06.680 --> 00:04:09.680 scholarly at the same time. And that's a fine hind 66 00:04:09.680 --> 00:04:10.120 to walk. 67 00:04:11.039 --> 00:04:14.879 It is, absolutely I really love walking that line, and 68 00:04:14.960 --> 00:04:18.800 I have not always done it well. I keep saying 69 00:04:18.800 --> 00:04:21.639 this about this book, and you're always supposed to say 70 00:04:21.680 --> 00:04:24.519 that the latest thing is the best. I really do 71 00:04:24.600 --> 00:04:27.920 think this book came together in a way that nothing 72 00:04:28.279 --> 00:04:31.560 I've written beforehand did, especially in the way that you've 73 00:04:31.560 --> 00:04:34.360 put it in terms of my sort of scholarly voice 74 00:04:34.360 --> 00:04:39.000 and purview, coupled with my personal connection to Koprick and 75 00:04:39.720 --> 00:04:43.480 the various creative kind of things that I do on it. Basically, 76 00:04:44.040 --> 00:04:46.920 just to say, the creative lines of Flight basically take 77 00:04:46.959 --> 00:04:51.199 the form of me making Strange Love into a character 78 00:04:51.839 --> 00:04:54.879 that kind of haunts all of the films that I discuss. 79 00:04:55.120 --> 00:04:58.279 I start with Strange Love and then go to two 80 00:04:58.360 --> 00:05:01.680 thousand and one o'clock or Orange, and then finally Ai, 81 00:05:01.879 --> 00:05:04.519 which Kubrick didn't make, of course, but was involved with 82 00:05:04.639 --> 00:05:10.759 for years collaborating with Spielberg. It's not as if there's dialogue, 83 00:05:10.879 --> 00:05:15.240 for instance, as in a novel, but it's not something 84 00:05:15.240 --> 00:05:17.319 you find in traditional scholarly work. 85 00:05:18.160 --> 00:05:21.800 I just appreciate that it's not even in a typical format. 86 00:05:22.000 --> 00:05:24.399 It looks more like it's paperback book. And so when 87 00:05:24.439 --> 00:05:27.800 I approached it, I was approaching it as more a 88 00:05:27.839 --> 00:05:30.319 work of fiction. But then it's not just that it's 89 00:05:30.360 --> 00:05:33.639 so much more the fiction. It really fits into more 90 00:05:33.639 --> 00:05:36.319 of the scholarly shape. But I like the actual shape 91 00:05:36.360 --> 00:05:39.319 of the book is more approachable, I suppose, and much 92 00:05:39.319 --> 00:05:41.399 easier to read. I have to say, the most scholarly 93 00:05:41.439 --> 00:05:43.560 books that I have, which I am almost in danger 94 00:05:43.600 --> 00:05:45.480 of letting them fall in my face as I'm reading 95 00:05:45.480 --> 00:05:46.920 and I'll break my nose kind of thing. 96 00:05:47.639 --> 00:05:50.759 I'm really happy you said that, because that is something 97 00:05:50.800 --> 00:05:54.560 aspire for. And that was you know, I've long written 98 00:05:54.639 --> 00:05:59.279 fiction and nonfiction, dating back to when I became a professor. 99 00:06:00.120 --> 00:06:04.800 Before that, and the scholarly work that I'd done for 100 00:06:04.959 --> 00:06:09.879 years was more jargony and more like academy ease and 101 00:06:09.920 --> 00:06:13.240 all of that. You think years, I've really made an 102 00:06:13.279 --> 00:06:17.519 effort to make it more readable and expand the audience 103 00:06:17.560 --> 00:06:19.360 from just sort of specialists in the field. 104 00:06:20.199 --> 00:06:22.959 Well, I really appreciate that approach. I think things like 105 00:06:23.040 --> 00:06:25.079 and I'm trying to remember the gentleman who wrote about 106 00:06:25.800 --> 00:06:28.680 Tarkovsky's Stalker from a much more personal point of view. 107 00:06:28.759 --> 00:06:31.560 I mean the works of Kayla Janice with how she 108 00:06:31.759 --> 00:06:35.839 approaches feminist film scholarship and really injects her own personal 109 00:06:36.639 --> 00:06:39.439 take on things as well. It just fits into that, 110 00:06:39.480 --> 00:06:42.000 and I'm really kind of hoping that we move more 111 00:06:42.040 --> 00:06:44.279 towards that, or at least have that as an available 112 00:06:44.399 --> 00:06:48.519 option for scholarly works to also involve the personal, because 113 00:06:48.759 --> 00:06:50.800 it's the old personal is the political kind of thing. 114 00:06:50.839 --> 00:06:54.720 It's like, yes, this actually makes a big difference totally. 115 00:06:54.920 --> 00:06:57.680 Yes, I'm working on a book on link Ladders of 116 00:06:57.720 --> 00:07:01.560 Scanner Darkly Now, another Philip case Dick related book that's 117 00:07:01.639 --> 00:07:05.560 much bigger on his on life writing about Philip K. Dick, 118 00:07:05.639 --> 00:07:10.360 the biographies and memoirs, And I'm doing I shoot straighter 119 00:07:10.519 --> 00:07:15.560 than I do in Strange Love Country. It's more formally scholarly, 120 00:07:15.600 --> 00:07:19.439 but I like to think I'm maintaining that more colloquial voice. 121 00:07:19.720 --> 00:07:25.079 Yeah, and it's interesting that you just approach Kubrick from 122 00:07:25.160 --> 00:07:28.879 the science fiction point of view, because whenever I talk 123 00:07:28.920 --> 00:07:33.600 about Kubrick's like he was invested in so many different genres, 124 00:07:33.920 --> 00:07:36.399 but science fiction is a thread that goes through so 125 00:07:36.480 --> 00:07:38.519 many of his works, and I just found that to 126 00:07:38.560 --> 00:07:42.600 be really smart that you approach it because it's those 127 00:07:42.639 --> 00:07:46.839 three films. For at first, Blush could not be more 128 00:07:46.839 --> 00:07:50.000 different or for films. Sorry, I forget about AI. And 129 00:07:50.120 --> 00:07:53.920 the AI chapter was probably surprisingly the chapter that I 130 00:07:53.959 --> 00:07:56.680 fell in love with the most, just because I was 131 00:07:56.920 --> 00:08:01.399 not aware of the Spielberg Kubrick differences and who brought 132 00:08:01.439 --> 00:08:04.199 what to which party, and then of course your take 133 00:08:04.319 --> 00:08:06.920 on everything. I was just like, oh, this is really nice, 134 00:08:06.959 --> 00:08:10.600 because most of the time I just read capsule reviews 135 00:08:10.839 --> 00:08:13.240 or very simplistic stuff. But I was like, this is 136 00:08:13.319 --> 00:08:18.000 finally as in depth as I'm looking for with these works. 137 00:08:18.519 --> 00:08:22.800 When I saw AI, I was like, oh, okay, here's here. 138 00:08:22.920 --> 00:08:26.720 Like Rouge City, for instance, clearly that's Kubrick, right, whereas 139 00:08:27.519 --> 00:08:30.439 the family dynamics, which is Spielberg's kind of big thing, 140 00:08:30.959 --> 00:08:34.600 family riffs and so forth, that wasn't the case at all. 141 00:08:34.639 --> 00:08:37.639 It was the inverse of that. Rouge City was Spielberg, 142 00:08:37.720 --> 00:08:40.720 the family stuff was Kubrick. Which was really interesting to me. 143 00:08:40.759 --> 00:08:44.039 And there's a couple of books that go into One 144 00:08:44.080 --> 00:08:47.240 of them was by Julian Rice. The name escapes me, 145 00:08:47.399 --> 00:08:50.480 but he talks about all of those dynamics. It was fascinating. 146 00:08:50.600 --> 00:08:54.159 That's another reason I love this book and loved writing 147 00:08:54.200 --> 00:08:56.559 it is I learned so much writing about this. So 148 00:08:56.559 --> 00:08:58.919 there's a lot of scholarship out there, and I've read, 149 00:08:59.039 --> 00:09:01.879 obviously before this book, a lot of that scholarship. But 150 00:09:01.919 --> 00:09:05.000 like we were talking about earlier, I'm always looking to 151 00:09:05.080 --> 00:09:08.399 do something not crazy new, but just a little bit 152 00:09:08.440 --> 00:09:12.279 new and original. And Nah, it just worked out. And 153 00:09:12.320 --> 00:09:16.440 I should add two that cinema is such that it 154 00:09:16.519 --> 00:09:18.519 kind of fits together like a puzzle, or at least 155 00:09:18.559 --> 00:09:20.440 that's what I found when I was looking at those 156 00:09:20.519 --> 00:09:23.120 futurist films and then thinking about them in terms of 157 00:09:23.120 --> 00:09:27.320 his entire oof. It really does fit together like an equation. 158 00:09:27.960 --> 00:09:33.000 It's like geometry. I was talking to Johnsdale and he said, 159 00:09:33.039 --> 00:09:34.960 it's like music, you know, it's like kind of reading 160 00:09:35.039 --> 00:09:38.200 music too. It all fits together. So that made it 161 00:09:38.600 --> 00:09:41.440 easier for me to apply my theory to it and 162 00:09:41.480 --> 00:09:41.960 discuss it. 163 00:09:42.120 --> 00:09:45.679 Yeah, when we were talking about a clockwork orange on 164 00:09:45.759 --> 00:09:49.600 the show. Years ago, somebody had posited, what if what's 165 00:09:49.639 --> 00:09:52.519 going on on Earth is a clockwork orange, what's going 166 00:09:52.559 --> 00:09:54.519 on up in space is two thousand and one a 167 00:09:54.559 --> 00:09:58.240 space odyssey, And I thought, okay, yeah, that's possible. I 168 00:09:58.240 --> 00:10:00.799 don't know if the world that has your Alexis is 169 00:10:00.799 --> 00:10:04.360 also the world that has these satellites out there, but yeah, 170 00:10:04.399 --> 00:10:06.159 I can kind of see that. And then when you 171 00:10:06.200 --> 00:10:08.639 take the classical music to bring your point in, as 172 00:10:08.639 --> 00:10:11.519 far as the music fitting together, it's like, yeah, here's 173 00:10:11.559 --> 00:10:14.960 the electronic version, the Windy Carlos version down here on Earth, 174 00:10:15.279 --> 00:10:18.600 and then here's the Recard Strauss up in space, where 175 00:10:18.600 --> 00:10:20.399 it's like the pure version of it. 176 00:10:20.879 --> 00:10:26.039 And i'd add I use the phrase called chessboard precision 177 00:10:26.240 --> 00:10:29.159 and prevision, which goes hand in hand with that too. 178 00:10:29.240 --> 00:10:32.039 And Kubrick, if I recall, was a pretty good chess 179 00:10:32.080 --> 00:10:37.639 player and play often all the time. Yeah. Incidentally, I 180 00:10:37.679 --> 00:10:41.080 seem to be kind of drawn to these figures. We 181 00:10:41.120 --> 00:10:43.799 talked about my book on Gigi Ballard several years ago. 182 00:10:44.639 --> 00:10:50.000 His collective life work is similar. It's similarly geometric and 183 00:10:50.120 --> 00:10:53.639 musical and kind of mathematical the way it fits together. 184 00:10:54.440 --> 00:10:56.519 So I think moving forward, I just need to keep 185 00:10:56.519 --> 00:10:58.799 finding these guys who make it easier for me to 186 00:10:58.799 --> 00:10:59.679 write about them. 187 00:11:01.279 --> 00:11:03.360 Well, yeah, I don't want to jump too far ahead, 188 00:11:03.360 --> 00:11:06.000 but you're talking about your Minority report. I was like, well, there, 189 00:11:06.039 --> 00:11:08.840 you've got your Spielberg you were just talking about in Ai. 190 00:11:08.919 --> 00:11:11.240 You've got your Billip k Dick, who you're going to 191 00:11:11.240 --> 00:11:12.159 be working on more. 192 00:11:12.240 --> 00:11:12.440 Now. 193 00:11:12.519 --> 00:11:14.960 I'm just like, wow, Yeah, all this stuff just kind 194 00:11:15.000 --> 00:11:17.279 of pays to play with each other. I love it. 195 00:11:17.519 --> 00:11:20.440 Yeah, I was thinking about that before we start talking tonight. 196 00:11:21.279 --> 00:11:25.120 All these let's see Ballard. Yeah, let's just take Ballard, Dick, 197 00:11:25.399 --> 00:11:29.240 and Kubrick. They're all cut from the same cloth. They 198 00:11:29.279 --> 00:11:31.919 deal with a lot of the same themes, but at 199 00:11:31.919 --> 00:11:35.600 the same time are quite different as are. I discovered 200 00:11:36.399 --> 00:11:42.000 their fans and scholars. Dick Ians, Ballardians, and Kubricians are 201 00:11:42.039 --> 00:11:47.279 all very distinctive, but all quite different and intriguing in 202 00:11:47.600 --> 00:11:50.279 different ways. Yeah, and that's important to me to kind 203 00:11:50.320 --> 00:11:53.840 of tap into that community when writing these books and 204 00:11:53.919 --> 00:11:56.720 try to get a sense of the pulse helps my 205 00:11:56.840 --> 00:11:58.320 own carrying out of the material. 206 00:11:59.159 --> 00:12:01.039 You mentioned that you learned a lot while you were 207 00:12:01.080 --> 00:12:02.960 writing this book, and I'm curious what were some of 208 00:12:03.000 --> 00:12:03.960 the things that you've learned. 209 00:12:04.879 --> 00:12:10.879 So primarily I should mention two this book called Filmosophy 210 00:12:11.000 --> 00:12:15.679 by Daniel Brampton, very obscure book. The main thing I 211 00:12:15.799 --> 00:12:19.639 learned to answer your question is how the philosophy he 212 00:12:19.759 --> 00:12:23.840 developed in Filmosophy, which is a filmful a new I 213 00:12:23.840 --> 00:12:27.679 think it's subtitled Manifesto is in the subtitle, I can't 214 00:12:27.679 --> 00:12:31.799 remember what it is, but it's a manifesto for rethinking film. 215 00:12:32.600 --> 00:12:35.440 So I had read it befour years ago. I think 216 00:12:35.480 --> 00:12:38.440 I've even reviewed it for a journal, but then I 217 00:12:38.519 --> 00:12:42.360 kind of lost track of it. And Daniel Frampton is 218 00:12:42.639 --> 00:12:44.639 as far as I know. Have you ever heard of 219 00:12:44.759 --> 00:12:48.399 him or no, Sophie, I think he was a filmmaker, 220 00:12:48.519 --> 00:12:51.639 maybe still is. He only wrote that one book and 221 00:12:51.679 --> 00:12:55.720 then disappeared. It was published by Wallflower Press in two 222 00:12:55.759 --> 00:13:01.120 thousand and seven. I think Wallflower Press is out of England, 223 00:13:01.639 --> 00:13:04.679 and I believe he is British. But it was such 224 00:13:04.720 --> 00:13:09.840 a cool book and mostly really strong. But there's some 225 00:13:09.879 --> 00:13:12.159 wacky things in that book that didn't resonate with me. 226 00:13:12.960 --> 00:13:17.080 But I didn't really understand it until, like a lot 227 00:13:17.120 --> 00:13:19.919 of stuff, until I started writing about it, and not 228 00:13:20.000 --> 00:13:23.399 just writing about it, but applying it to text. In 229 00:13:23.440 --> 00:13:27.840 this case Kubrick, that's when I really discover things. The 230 00:13:27.840 --> 00:13:31.279 theory in the book essentially belongs to him. In a nutshell, 231 00:13:31.360 --> 00:13:37.159 what he argues is that cinema, individual films, and in 232 00:13:37.279 --> 00:13:43.679 Kubrick's case and many filmmakers' cases, their entire filmographies form 233 00:13:44.039 --> 00:13:46.799 what he calls a filmmind portmanteau of film and mind 234 00:13:47.759 --> 00:13:51.919 in film studies. Looking at cinema as a brain has 235 00:13:52.039 --> 00:13:56.279 long been under discussion. To lose it was big on that, 236 00:13:56.480 --> 00:13:59.519 but it predates to lose anyway. He's kind of writing 237 00:13:59.559 --> 00:14:03.759 that out later on. And the short of it is 238 00:14:04.000 --> 00:14:09.159 that cinema functions as a kind of external brain, an 239 00:14:09.320 --> 00:14:14.440 entity separate from the directors, the actors, everybody who's making it, 240 00:14:14.480 --> 00:14:19.559 but especially the filmmaker him or herself. So this film mind, 241 00:14:19.799 --> 00:14:23.399 it belongs to the film, that film, or any film, 242 00:14:23.799 --> 00:14:27.720 let's relegate it to Kubrick. There is a collective Kubrickian 243 00:14:27.879 --> 00:14:31.559 film that is kind of I don't know if I 244 00:14:31.559 --> 00:14:35.919 want to say sentient or even alive, but it is 245 00:14:36.320 --> 00:14:41.960 an operative thing, let's say. And it enabled me, first 246 00:14:41.960 --> 00:14:47.960 and foremost to distance ideas about Kubrick from the films themselves, 247 00:14:48.159 --> 00:14:52.039 because often I mentioned this in some depth in the introduction, 248 00:14:52.879 --> 00:14:57.360 Kubrick's been attacked for racism, misogyny, what are some of 249 00:14:57.399 --> 00:15:00.960 the other ones? Sexism, Yeah, sexism, all the bad things, 250 00:15:01.360 --> 00:15:03.919 and rightly so in some cases. But he's also been 251 00:15:03.960 --> 00:15:08.600 called an an amoralist and an I guess an immoralist 252 00:15:08.759 --> 00:15:11.360 for lack of it. And you can defend all of 253 00:15:11.360 --> 00:15:15.960 those with evidence from the films. By applying this filmosophy 254 00:15:16.039 --> 00:15:18.879 to it, it enabled me to push that aside essentially 255 00:15:19.399 --> 00:15:22.960 and focus on how I thought. In any case, the 256 00:15:23.080 --> 00:15:27.759 films were working as these science fiction apparatuses that spoke 257 00:15:27.879 --> 00:15:32.799 to the project of cinema at large, as well as 258 00:15:32.879 --> 00:15:37.399 Kubrick's futurist cinema and his entire as well as you know, 259 00:15:37.440 --> 00:15:39.440 the individual films themselves. 260 00:15:39.960 --> 00:15:43.919 As you're talking, I'm thinking of myself, where are all 261 00:15:43.960 --> 00:15:47.039 the black people? And I can think of James Earl Jones. 262 00:15:47.879 --> 00:15:50.759 That's about it with these four particular films. I mean, 263 00:15:50.759 --> 00:15:53.799 there's no Dick Hiloran in this one. You know, there's 264 00:15:53.879 --> 00:15:57.519 no talk of the N word going on. But yeah, 265 00:15:57.679 --> 00:16:02.159 very relegated and even so much trying to think with 266 00:16:02.200 --> 00:16:06.559 these I mean women are just so sexualized in Clockwork. 267 00:16:06.600 --> 00:16:11.240 Orange are barely present in two thousand and one, and 268 00:16:11.279 --> 00:16:15.559 I would say pretty barely present in Strange Love as well. 269 00:16:15.960 --> 00:16:19.200 It's so weird because there are such sexualized objects when 270 00:16:19.240 --> 00:16:23.080 it comes to Clockwork, But then AI get that weird 271 00:16:23.519 --> 00:16:26.799 mother thing going on. So yeah, but yeah, really so 272 00:16:26.960 --> 00:16:28.840 much the story of men with these films. 273 00:16:29.399 --> 00:16:34.159 Absolutely, and there's several art threads that kind of run 274 00:16:34.200 --> 00:16:36.720 throughout this. Another one that I haven't mentioned yet is 275 00:16:37.639 --> 00:16:43.440 how Kubrick's futurist cinema brings together a critique of masculinity, 276 00:16:43.559 --> 00:16:48.840 of techno masculinity. I basically say, masculinity under the auspices 277 00:16:48.919 --> 00:16:54.559 of technological power, let's say, which to some degree accounts 278 00:16:54.600 --> 00:16:58.679 for a lack of or you could argue accounts for 279 00:16:59.000 --> 00:17:03.039 the lack of women who are definitely marginalized throughout in 280 00:17:03.039 --> 00:17:05.200 addition to people of color, Like two thousand and one, 281 00:17:06.119 --> 00:17:08.480 that's a problem. There's no black people in that. I mean, 282 00:17:08.480 --> 00:17:11.680 give me a break, among others. That's what the future 283 00:17:11.680 --> 00:17:16.559 looks like. I'm not sure, but go back to Doctor Strangelove, 284 00:17:16.680 --> 00:17:19.240 and I mentioned this in the chapter where I cover 285 00:17:19.319 --> 00:17:24.920 that film. Scott George C. Buck Turgitson's secretary. I make 286 00:17:24.920 --> 00:17:29.720 an argument that she's maybe the strongest female character in 287 00:17:29.759 --> 00:17:33.079 his entire at least in the future of cinema. Now 288 00:17:33.119 --> 00:17:35.519 I'm thinking of Barry Lindon and stuff like that, and 289 00:17:35.559 --> 00:17:40.680 then actually Nicole Kidman Eyewride Shut is actually the source 290 00:17:40.680 --> 00:17:43.039 of power in that. And I would argue that in 291 00:17:43.079 --> 00:17:47.279 The Shining Wendy is she's the powerful one. It doesn't 292 00:17:47.319 --> 00:17:49.720 seem like it. She seems out of control most of 293 00:17:49.759 --> 00:17:52.160 the film, but she's the one who lives in the end. 294 00:17:52.200 --> 00:17:55.519 She's the one who gets away. Jack is the man baby, 295 00:17:55.640 --> 00:17:58.640 he's the drunk, he's the little boy. He's totally out 296 00:17:58.680 --> 00:18:03.920 of control. And well, there are traces, of course of 297 00:18:04.000 --> 00:18:08.599 female power throughout his filmography. But I argue that Miss 298 00:18:08.680 --> 00:18:11.480 Scott is the way that she's framed, the tone of 299 00:18:11.480 --> 00:18:14.519 her voice, which I think. I use the word orotund 300 00:18:15.000 --> 00:18:17.160 for her voice, which is good. 301 00:18:17.200 --> 00:18:17.960 I thought about that. 302 00:18:18.720 --> 00:18:21.519 I consternated over the right adjective for that for a while. 303 00:18:22.920 --> 00:18:25.880 But you know, she's probably in a two minutes and 304 00:18:26.400 --> 00:18:29.319 makes just in that two minutes all those other monkey 305 00:18:29.319 --> 00:18:33.319 boys look stupid and silly, which they definitely are. So 306 00:18:34.240 --> 00:18:39.240 I think I argue that really what Kubrick's doing, or 307 00:18:39.279 --> 00:18:43.920 at least what Kubrick's film mind is doing, is breaking 308 00:18:44.079 --> 00:18:49.480 masculinity over the calls again and again, satirizing it and 309 00:18:49.680 --> 00:18:54.200 really pointing out how horrible mena it's the white men. 310 00:18:54.839 --> 00:18:58.039 Gosh yah, you think of the sterling Hayden character and 311 00:18:58.240 --> 00:19:01.240 just that what he lost in direction once and he 312 00:19:01.359 --> 00:19:04.400 lost his mind after that. Yeah, it had to be 313 00:19:04.440 --> 00:19:07.119 the floor i'be been the ones and the phallus, of 314 00:19:07.119 --> 00:19:07.680 course is. 315 00:19:08.000 --> 00:19:11.160 I mean, it's so prominent as a symbolically imagistically in 316 00:19:11.200 --> 00:19:14.519 that film, but it runs throughout everything every film somebody 317 00:19:14.519 --> 00:19:17.400 always talking to recently. You could read that film as 318 00:19:17.480 --> 00:19:20.079 I do, in terms of the fallust, but you could 319 00:19:20.119 --> 00:19:23.799 also read it in the opposite terms every film, if 320 00:19:23.839 --> 00:19:27.119 only by absence or marginalization of women. You know, you 321 00:19:27.160 --> 00:19:29.759 could read the Monolith, for instance, in two thousand and one, 322 00:19:29.880 --> 00:19:33.319 is a big dick or a big womb, and you 323 00:19:33.359 --> 00:19:38.119 could expand that to the whole of his filmography. It's 324 00:19:38.240 --> 00:19:41.200 all right there, And that's anyway, one of the reasons 325 00:19:41.200 --> 00:19:44.640 that he's so he's so good. I can't imagine that Kuper, 326 00:19:44.960 --> 00:19:47.640 you know, sat back one day and was like hmm. 327 00:19:47.759 --> 00:19:50.319 This is what I'm gonna do with my entire body 328 00:19:50.359 --> 00:19:56.160 of work. But it's ultimately a reflection that film Mind 329 00:19:56.200 --> 00:19:59.039 of course, which I perceive is separate, is really a 330 00:19:59.079 --> 00:20:02.839 reflection of coup. It's mind, of course, and boy, it's 331 00:20:02.880 --> 00:20:04.480 fascinating spectacular. 332 00:20:05.319 --> 00:20:08.160 Does that film mind have a subconscious because I imagine 333 00:20:08.160 --> 00:20:09.359 that's where all these connections go. 334 00:20:09.440 --> 00:20:13.960 That's what it's all about. Yes, I am reading what 335 00:20:14.000 --> 00:20:16.319 I think. I mean, I employed a little bit of 336 00:20:17.119 --> 00:20:23.920 psychoanalytics stuff, but I'm reading it as an unconscious representation 337 00:20:24.480 --> 00:20:28.400 of It's highly on Eric and dream like too, all 338 00:20:28.440 --> 00:20:33.079 of his films, even mostly subtly. Eyes Wide Shuts a 339 00:20:33.079 --> 00:20:36.759 great example, because it's something, okay, well this could happen. 340 00:20:36.920 --> 00:20:39.279 There's nothing, there's nothing crazy that happens there. But at 341 00:20:39.279 --> 00:20:41.480 the same time, you know, the whole thing is very 342 00:20:41.519 --> 00:20:45.799 much like a dream and of course based on Yes, 343 00:20:47.359 --> 00:20:52.319 which means dream story right in German. So yes, for sure. 344 00:20:52.680 --> 00:20:57.559 And I'm usually quite interested in the unconscious. You can 345 00:20:57.599 --> 00:20:59.839 do anything with the unconscious, just say anything and figure 346 00:20:59.839 --> 00:21:03.160 it out. Nothing set in stone. Everything's kind of fluid 347 00:21:03.160 --> 00:21:05.880 and in motion, and it's a great sort of place 348 00:21:05.960 --> 00:21:09.359 base to theorize and have intellectual fun. 349 00:21:10.079 --> 00:21:12.720 No, it is completely fun. And that's the thing that 350 00:21:13.559 --> 00:21:15.880 I enjoy this so much, because now we've got my 351 00:21:16.000 --> 00:21:18.720 mind reeling about clockbook ords and I'm just like, oh, yeah, 352 00:21:18.759 --> 00:21:22.359 the big fallis that Alex uses to attack that woman, 353 00:21:22.680 --> 00:21:27.440 or the weird relationship between the muscleman and the try 354 00:21:27.519 --> 00:21:29.079 the wine guy, you know, or. 355 00:21:29.119 --> 00:21:35.079 Just they're just walking penises, right, there's completely bowlers are 356 00:21:35.200 --> 00:21:37.680 the head of the penis and yeah. 357 00:21:37.200 --> 00:21:39.960 And then Alex with his cane and everything. I mean, yeah, 358 00:21:40.039 --> 00:21:41.519 it's a penis with a walking stick. 359 00:21:41.839 --> 00:21:44.960 Yeah, from seeing it a million times, Like the first 360 00:21:45.000 --> 00:21:48.559 novel that I wrote was a sequel to it, ridiculously 361 00:21:48.680 --> 00:21:53.440 called I Alex, in which it never published, thankfully, and 362 00:21:54.359 --> 00:21:57.000 I even included like half of it was written in 363 00:21:57.079 --> 00:22:03.480 nadsat that language. Well, even today, I can't believe I 364 00:22:03.559 --> 00:22:06.319 think I say this in the book Kubrick. It was 365 00:22:06.359 --> 00:22:11.079 an insane act to try to make Burgess's novel into 366 00:22:11.119 --> 00:22:13.799 that film. I don't even know how that entered as mine, 367 00:22:14.319 --> 00:22:19.200 let alone how he imaginatively rendered it on the screen. 368 00:22:19.519 --> 00:22:22.440 Like the drugs didn't wear outfits like that in the novel. 369 00:22:22.640 --> 00:22:26.559 That's not how they were described that's really his vision, 370 00:22:26.640 --> 00:22:29.480 and it's so in the language, which is so dense. 371 00:22:29.519 --> 00:22:31.519 I mean, it's wonderful. I love it, but it's so 372 00:22:31.599 --> 00:22:33.839 dense and playful, like who would read that and think 373 00:22:34.480 --> 00:22:36.079 make a movie out of this? It's correct, like making 374 00:22:36.079 --> 00:22:40.119 a movie out of Joyce's Finnegan's Wake or something. Although 375 00:22:40.160 --> 00:22:44.279 that's prays up been made no seas, yes, a couple 376 00:22:44.319 --> 00:22:47.319 of times, but not betting it's way Clockwork Orang's Remains 377 00:22:47.400 --> 00:22:51.119 just blows me away every time. One thing I found 378 00:22:51.480 --> 00:22:55.480 just talking to Kubrick Folk there is a personal there's 379 00:22:56.000 --> 00:22:59.799 some figures, there's you keep your sort of personal investment 380 00:22:59.839 --> 00:23:03.599 in it distance, but with Gubricians there's a pretty consistent 381 00:23:03.680 --> 00:23:06.759 investment of the personal into their writing. How did you 382 00:23:06.799 --> 00:23:09.519 come to Koban? Were you young so later? 383 00:23:10.039 --> 00:23:14.079 Yeah? Probably pretty young. I remember watching The Shining when 384 00:23:14.160 --> 00:23:16.839 I was way too young to see it, and we 385 00:23:17.000 --> 00:23:20.359 definitely watched a lot of Clock or Orange again, way 386 00:23:20.400 --> 00:23:22.519 too young. I was in high school at the time, 387 00:23:22.920 --> 00:23:26.079 so it really wasn't until you know, seeing things like 388 00:23:26.119 --> 00:23:28.799 the killing and being like oh okay, and I know 389 00:23:28.880 --> 00:23:31.839 I definitely saw two thousand and one, probably even before 390 00:23:31.880 --> 00:23:34.839 the killing, So yeah, a lot of these films I 391 00:23:34.920 --> 00:23:38.200 was familiar with before I really got into film scholarship. 392 00:23:38.680 --> 00:23:42.000 But yeah, it goes together so naturally, and I completely 393 00:23:42.000 --> 00:23:45.119 agree with I think that's probably worth some of the 394 00:23:45.839 --> 00:23:48.720 adverse reactions to something like A Room two thirty seven, 395 00:23:49.279 --> 00:23:53.839 because that whole movie is about personal connections to shining 396 00:23:54.319 --> 00:23:56.920 and just you know. Even I remember the one woman 397 00:23:56.960 --> 00:24:01.039 talking about how our child had drawn a drawing that 398 00:24:01.240 --> 00:24:03.599 had a guy with his head split open and said, 399 00:24:03.599 --> 00:24:05.519 I have a splitting headache. And she's like, oh, and 400 00:24:05.519 --> 00:24:08.000 that reminded me of the image of you know, Deulbart 401 00:24:08.039 --> 00:24:10.400