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<v Speaker 1>In a saga reminiscent of Keystone Cops, a two year

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<v Speaker 1>pursuit of felony charges against school librarians in Granbury, Texas

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<v Speaker 1>unfolded like a farcical mission gone awry. Right wing extremists.

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<v Speaker 1>Scott London embarked on his vendetta and poured over stacks

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<v Speaker 1>of literature while sporting a bodycam to capture his quest

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<v Speaker 1>to persecute, I mean, prosecute his target three school librarians

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<v Speaker 1>allowing miners to check out books at the library, some

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<v Speaker 1>deemed op scene. Despite subpoenas and dramatic investigative theatrics, Ultimately

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<v Speaker 1>the case did fizzle when the disc attorney did decline

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<v Speaker 1>to indict, citing insufficient evidence. So stick around for the

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<v Speaker 1>sort of details of Scott London's attempt to stop kids

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<v Speaker 1>from reading. There's a lot more idiocy to cover the

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<v Speaker 1>story from NBC News by Mike Hixenburg. It's by Tyler Kincaid,

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<v Speaker 1>Scott Freeman, and Nava Parks on July twenty third, twenty

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<v Speaker 1>twenty four. Now, Cindy, I know there's a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>talk about deciding what books should and should not be

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<v Speaker 1>in schools or libraries or things like that. What do

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<v Speaker 1>you think who should be making those type of decisions.

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<v Speaker 1>Is it somebody who ultimately runs around with the camera

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<v Speaker 1>trying to invade privacy or do you think there might

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<v Speaker 1>be a more mature way to do it.

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<v Speaker 2>No, I definitely don't think that suff righteous. As for

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<v Speaker 2>who has nothing to do with his days, apparently that's

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<v Speaker 2>not the person who should make those decisions, and he

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<v Speaker 2>won't because basically he works for two years for nothing

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<v Speaker 2>because he proposed some charges to be filed and they weren't,

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<v Speaker 2>so unfortunately, I don't think it will have the effect

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<v Speaker 2>I wish it had, because I'm pretty sure someone else

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<v Speaker 2>will try another time. But yeah, I think it should

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<v Speaker 2>be the at the federal level. I don't see why

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<v Speaker 2>a child in Texas should have access to different books

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<v Speaker 2>than in California. There's no reason for for that. So

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<v Speaker 2>I don't think UH school boards should exist. I think

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<v Speaker 2>it should be done by the Ministry of Education, which

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<v Speaker 2>should be funded accordingly, and not let by people who

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<v Speaker 2>want to destroy the public system like like it was

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<v Speaker 2>for quite a bit. But yeah, it's I think it's

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<v Speaker 2>symptomatic of a portion of the population who UH cees

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<v Speaker 2>education as as as a bad thing, you know, uh,

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<v Speaker 2>and and there are many reasons why, and we can

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<v Speaker 2>jump into it, but basically, that's that's that's it. It's

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<v Speaker 2>just a miserable cup who thinks too much of his

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<v Speaker 2>beliefs and wants to pulls them onto everyone else. That's

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<v Speaker 2>just what it is.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I can't disagree with you there. It's really a

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<v Speaker 1>case that we're kind of mind boggling me though, that

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<v Speaker 1>the police were getting involved in books and eli talking

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<v Speaker 1>about children and books and all of that. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>the privacy of the children was a something that he

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<v Speaker 1>took into consideration. Or are we talking about how exactly

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<v Speaker 1>far did he go with that?

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, he sure didn't consider that. So he even went

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<v Speaker 3>so far as to gather a list over the past

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<v Speaker 3>two years of like the names of children in these

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<v Speaker 3>schools that had checked out these books. And it's ironic

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<v Speaker 3>to think to see that he thinks this is creating

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<v Speaker 3>like this is creating a safe environment for children, like

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<v Speaker 3>this is this is the protection that children need. And

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<v Speaker 3>you hit a lot of points that I really agree with, Cindy.

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<v Speaker 3>He really he is just pushing his personal beliefs. He

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<v Speaker 3>said in an interview with the same sort back in

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<v Speaker 3>twenty twenty three. This has nothing to do with the constitution.

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<v Speaker 3>I don't know what a constitutional constable is, but he

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<v Speaker 3>said in the interview, this has nothing to do with

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<v Speaker 3>his job. So he's just like being paid taxpayer money

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<v Speaker 3>to just do this thing and persecute like librarians under

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<v Speaker 3>felonies for letting kids read books. And it's just such

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<v Speaker 3>a strange Like I'm starting to not believe. I saw

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<v Speaker 3>somebody say that, like everybody watches America the same way

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<v Speaker 3>America watched Tiger King, And I really see that, Like

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<v Speaker 3>that makes a lot of sense to me, And I'm

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<v Speaker 3>starting to no longer believe that the things that happen

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<v Speaker 3>here are reality.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, I have to say that, it really is

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<v Speaker 1>a little amazing to think that you're going, it's okay,

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<v Speaker 1>we're going to punish librarians for this, but really, where

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<v Speaker 1>is it do you draw the line if you ultimately

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<v Speaker 1>decided this is a book that's bad, who would you

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<v Speaker 1>just say? Is it the person who bought the book,

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<v Speaker 1>Is it the person that put it on a wagon

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<v Speaker 1>and wheeled it into the front door. Where do you

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<v Speaker 1>as a physical possession? Is it writing on a piece

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<v Speaker 1>of paper? What ultimately decides whose responsibility it is is

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<v Speaker 1>books in your library. We're going to give you a

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<v Speaker 1>felony that's absurd all around. What are you gonna do?

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, that's just absolute absurd. So let me ask

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<v Speaker 1>you this, Cindy D. Do you think this is a

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<v Speaker 1>deliberate chilling effect to try to as you mentioned, the

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<v Speaker 1>people who want to not have education. Is this more

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<v Speaker 1>in the long along the lines of what we're looking

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<v Speaker 1>at there just really not wanting it to.

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<v Speaker 2>Have I think it is when you look at all

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<v Speaker 2>the cases where legislators, local legislators are trying to impose

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<v Speaker 2>this kind of those Benning books. But in this specific case,

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<v Speaker 2>I don't think Okay is smart enough to go this far.

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<v Speaker 2>I just think he thinks he's uh, he's just right

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<v Speaker 2>in his mind. He's just self righteous and and he

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<v Speaker 2>just wants to impose his views on on on anyone.

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<v Speaker 2>And you know, we we are talking about the the

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<v Speaker 2>idea of panning books, but we're not talking about the

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<v Speaker 2>reasons why he says he does it because the content

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<v Speaker 2>he doesn't like. It's not like there's there's a quote

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<v Speaker 2>at some point where she says, uh, something like imagine

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<v Speaker 2>if we got to give maxims on you know, like

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<v Speaker 2>pornographic material in the hands of kids, and and that's

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<v Speaker 2>not what's happening, you know. It's it's not like, uh,

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<v Speaker 2>those books first of all, contain images of actual sexual

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<v Speaker 2>depiction or anything like that. It's it's just books of

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<v Speaker 2>things that make him uncomfortable. And that's just what it is.

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<v Speaker 2>It's just talking about gender, it's talking about homosexuality, it's

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<v Speaker 2>about talking about all of this, and that's just make

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<v Speaker 2>him ikey, and so he just wants to prevent everyone

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<v Speaker 2>to uh, to read those books. And it's just, yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>I can't see, and I can't see it's in any

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<v Speaker 2>other way than just I don't like it, so others

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<v Speaker 2>can have it.

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<v Speaker 1>It's it's not a matter of a matter of right,

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<v Speaker 1>it's a matter of a feeling of discomfort, loss of entitlement,

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<v Speaker 1>you know. And and and maybe you're right, maybe it's

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<v Speaker 1>not his delivered attempt to bring in the idea of

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<v Speaker 1>a chilling effect. It could just be that, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>it's it's a it's a feature he didn't even know

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<v Speaker 1>about in it. This is an added bonus, because yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>I think at the end of the day, it's really

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<v Speaker 1>not even I think you probably hit the nail on

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<v Speaker 1>the head. Eliah, Where where where did you come from this?

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<v Speaker 3>What?

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<v Speaker 1>What? What did you get from this?

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<v Speaker 3>So it I've said a lot of times that I

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<v Speaker 3>don't think censoring information is a way to teach kids

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<v Speaker 3>the right information. I think if if you teach them

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<v Speaker 3>how to think, not what to think, teach them how

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<v Speaker 3>to discern correct incorrect, correct from incorrect, true versus from

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<v Speaker 3>not true, you know, good source from bad source, then

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<v Speaker 3>it doesn't matter what they're like. They can see and

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<v Speaker 3>read and take in whatever they want, and now they

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<v Speaker 3>have the tools to discern, like, this is something that's

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<v Speaker 3>helpful to me, and I should hold onto this, and

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<v Speaker 3>this is something that's not quite so helpful, and I

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<v Speaker 3>should get rid of this. What makes a kid want

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<v Speaker 3>to go and seek something out more than anything else.

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<v Speaker 3>Tell them that they can't have it, and then they're

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<v Speaker 3>gonna want to go find it. And it's like, we

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<v Speaker 3>talked about this on an episode recently, and somebody else

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<v Speaker 3>on the show on the episode said the same thing.

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<v Speaker 3>They're going to go get the book on Amazon for

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<v Speaker 3>like seven bucks. Anyway, as soon as they realize that

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<v Speaker 3>you took it out of the library, specifically so they

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<v Speaker 3>wouldn't be able to read it. So it's not doing

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<v Speaker 3>anything to stop them from accessing this material, and it's

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<v Speaker 3>just punishing people that are like just trying to educate kids.

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<v Speaker 3>There was a person in the video in the article

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<v Speaker 3>that said the same thing. Nobody should be facing threats

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<v Speaker 3>of felony charges just for trying to educate people and

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<v Speaker 3>provide information to the world. That would be like the

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<v Speaker 3>three of us. If if somebody came to the three

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<v Speaker 3>of us to say that, you know, we were committing

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<v Speaker 3>a felony because you know the things we talked about

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<v Speaker 3>on one of these shows. I think that's it's it's

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<v Speaker 3>akin to that, and it's it blows my mind.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I'd like to to Sorry, just just one point.

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<v Speaker 2>I'd like to come back to what you just said

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<v Speaker 2>when you talked about Sorry, I lost it now I

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<v Speaker 2>go go ahead. Uh, I'm sorry. I forgot my train

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<v Speaker 2>of thought.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh no, it's fine. Uh. I guess that happens to

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<v Speaker 1>us sometimes. I know I've already forgot. Who are the

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<v Speaker 1>two of you again, Kelly? Oh that's right, Kelly. I

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<v Speaker 1>thank thanks for failing in for Eli. Now having said that,

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<v Speaker 1>you mentioned LGBTQ books. Eli, Uh, what about sending people

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<v Speaker 1>of color that also seem to draw a share of attention. Now,

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<v Speaker 1>I wanted both of you to kind of comment on

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<v Speaker 1>what do you think that was about. Is it just

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<v Speaker 1>a it can't be an achy thing. Surely this far

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<v Speaker 1>in history, we're past achiness when it comes to race

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<v Speaker 1>like that, are we?

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<v Speaker 2>So?

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, I was just trying to figure why don't

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<v Speaker 1>we want to pretend that people of color don't exist

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<v Speaker 1>when they exist around us. I don't understand that motivation.

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<v Speaker 2>I can answer to that, and I can come back

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<v Speaker 2>to the point I forgot. You said that children they're

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<v Speaker 2>just going to buy the book on Amazon. The problem

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<v Speaker 2>is it increases the divide between the education of poor

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<v Speaker 2>people and people who have the means to go to

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<v Speaker 2>buy those books. And we know that in the US

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<v Speaker 2>it's one of the major problems that education is extremely

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<v Speaker 2>uh related to your revenues. So poor people have much

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<v Speaker 2>much worse education, and then rich people and even the

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<v Speaker 2>middle class. But yeah, there's there's this this idea that

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<v Speaker 2>not wanting to uh to acknowledge your past because if

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<v Speaker 2>you look at you know, Rosa Parks and all those

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<v Speaker 2>pictures you see about black people trying to eat in

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<v Speaker 2>a restaurant and being attacked by people. I think it's

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<v Speaker 2>still fresh in the memory, and people are so ashamed

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<v Speaker 2>of it that they just pushing it away and try

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<v Speaker 2>to make it like it it didn't happen. I think

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<v Speaker 2>that's one of the reasons why so many books talking

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<v Speaker 2>about race issues in the US are on the list

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<v Speaker 2>of band books.

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<v Speaker 1>So it's a more of a discomfort level than anything else.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, it's it's you know, and really I think

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<v Speaker 1>I understand a little better that the end of the day,

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<v Speaker 1>it's it's. It is a very difference of wanting to

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<v Speaker 1>stigmatize versus one of the naturalize. And I think that

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<v Speaker 1>that is fundamentally one of the differences, because so many

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<v Speaker 1>of the things that he talked about are things that

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<v Speaker 1>at the end of the day is a so what

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<v Speaker 1>you know, who cares move on? And but you know,

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<v Speaker 1>the unfortunately people like this keep popping up and we

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<v Speaker 1>keep having to play whack a mole. But you know,

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<v Speaker 1>do you think that this is a winning argument or

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<v Speaker 1>is this a losing argument? Is this something that that

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<v Speaker 1>people are receptive to, or or is this losing something?

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<v Speaker 1>What do you think you lie.

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<v Speaker 3>I think that hopefully fewer than I think, but probably

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<v Speaker 3>more than I think, people are are receptive to book banning.

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<v Speaker 3>I think that most people probably think they're restricting information

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<v Speaker 3>is the right way. And to your point, Cindy, which

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<v Speaker 3>is a very good point, for those people who don't

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<v Speaker 3>have the income resources to get that education outside of

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<v Speaker 3>the school, if the school is now banned from providing it,

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<v Speaker 3>they're just out of luck, and that's just another hurdle

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<v Speaker 3>they have to overcome in order to have the same

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<v Speaker 3>opportunity or even a similar equitable opportunity as anyone else.

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<v Speaker 3>And I think what happens is that when you look

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<v Speaker 3>at historically the people that are likely to ban books,

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<v Speaker 3>they're historically Christian or religious at least, and I think

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<v Speaker 3>in most cases Christian at least. The ones that we've

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<v Speaker 3>talked about, I think it's more likely to be white.

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<v Speaker 3>I think they're more likely to be heterosexual or heteronormative.

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<v Speaker 3>And I think it's also really common for everybody, regardless

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<v Speaker 3>of any type of background, for somebody in power to

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<v Speaker 3>feel defensive when things that they have done that are

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<v Speaker 3>not that great are brought to light. And that happens

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<v Speaker 3>a lot to white people and to hetero int strate

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<v Speaker 3>people and to sist people, because there's a lot of

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<v Speaker 3>examples of white and cysts and straight people causing harm.

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<v Speaker 3>So when books like The Bluest Eye, which was one

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<v Speaker 3>of the ones specifically mentioned in the article and was

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<v Speaker 3>on the ten top ten most challenged books in the

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<v Speaker 3>United States in twenty twenty three and was only one

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<v Speaker 3>of one of only a few books on that list

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<v Speaker 3>that was not about lgbt q I A plus issues,

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<v Speaker 3>but also one of only a few that was written

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<v Speaker 3>by a person of color. And it's because these books

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<v Speaker 3>are challenging the white normativity, in the hetero normativity, and

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<v Speaker 3>that's what they don't like. And I think until it

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<v Speaker 3>becomes clear that the perceived majority in society and in

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<v Speaker 3>culture that you know that white sis hetero people perceive, sorry,

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<v Speaker 3>until it is understood that perceived majority isn't as strong

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<v Speaker 3>as it is perceived to be, that's going to continue

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<v Speaker 3>to be the case where they the majority of people

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<v Speaker 3>feel like this is the right thing to do and.

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<v Speaker 1>Sending any thoughts or any any comments.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think there's one of the biggest fuels of

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<v Speaker 2>the conservative movement in the US is the amount of

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<v Speaker 2>shame they have to overcome to be part of the

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<v Speaker 2>current society because the conservatives they are against, they still

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<v Speaker 2>have some racist ideas, they still have homophobic ideas, they

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<v Speaker 2>still have all those wrong ideas that have been proven

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<v Speaker 2>false like fifty years ago, but they still have it

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<v Speaker 2>because they grew up with those ideas and since they

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<v Speaker 2>are no longer accepted in this society and we are

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<v Speaker 2>tribal creatures, we want to belong to our society. And

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<v Speaker 2>the response to to this exciting. I would say, like

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<v Speaker 2>like they're pushed on the side is trying to either

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<v Speaker 2>prevent this information uh that they're different from reaching the kids,

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<v Speaker 2>or trying to impose their views on everyone. And so

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<v Speaker 2>you have those two, uh, two movements in the conservative movement.

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<v Speaker 2>You have one where they're trying to impose their views

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<v Speaker 2>on everyone, like parieting abortion, like preventing gay marriage, like

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<v Speaker 2>all this, and at the same time you have this, uh,

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<v Speaker 2>let's make sure that our kids are not educated as

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<v Speaker 2>they need to be in order to understand the society

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<v Speaker 2>and stay with our ideas.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I would also I would also have to say

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<v Speaker 1>that in many ways the books are symbolic because it's

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<v Speaker 1>a it's a it's a notation of a lack of

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<v Speaker 1>acceptance that obviously goes so much further than books. This

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<v Speaker 1>is as you, as we mentioned earlier, stigmatized, this is

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<v Speaker 1>to exclude this is this feels beyond just icky. This

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<v Speaker 1>feels like, you know, the censorship that goes far beyond.

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<v Speaker 1>But we but it's it's what's it's what's happening now, Eli,

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<v Speaker 1>did you have any other thoughts on this, Nothing in.

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<v Speaker 3>Particular, I'd say, yeah, it does go beyond the ikey,

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<v Speaker 3>it goes it's it's I mean, it's it's not just

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<v Speaker 3>like it's I don't like this, and I don't want

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<v Speaker 3>I mean a lot like I was saying a minute ago,

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<v Speaker 3>I don't want, you know, the my children to feel responsible,

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<v Speaker 3>to feel guilt, to feel shamed for the actions of

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<v Speaker 3>my you know, of of people in the past, which

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<v Speaker 3>I can't say is unreasonable. But I don't think anybody

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<v Speaker 3>wants your children to feel ashamed for the actions of

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<v Speaker 3>people in the past.

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<v Speaker 1>It doesn't serve a purpose.

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<v Speaker 3>Right exactly, And and I don't think anybody wants that.

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<v Speaker 3>I think it's just that these things need to be

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<v Speaker 3>acknowledged so that we understand what did happen. Why it

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<v Speaker 3>is important to make sure that everybody has equality and

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<v Speaker 3>everybody is treated the same, regardless of their background. And

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<v Speaker 3>when you continue to remove the examples of that not

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<v Speaker 3>happening and the results of that not happening, then you

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<v Speaker 3>remove the motives or the incentives to make sure it

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<v Speaker 3>doesn't happen anymore.

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<v Speaker 2>Sending you a final thought, Yeah, I'd like to point

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<v Speaker 2>out that in order to be educated on what your

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<v Speaker 2>previous generations did and not feel guilty, that's possible that

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<v Speaker 2>everyone else does it, but you need education for that.

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<v Speaker 2>You need properly trained educators. And if you defend the

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<v Speaker 2>education system, then it doesn't happen. And it's you know,

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<v Speaker 2>it's it's it's a chestrangity too. You cannot solve this

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<v Speaker 2>problem if you don't manage to find a way to

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<v Speaker 2>teach that. Yes, your grandparents did some horrific things, but

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<v Speaker 2>it was a different time, they grew up in a

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<v Speaker 2>different way. And although we do understand now that it's

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<v Speaker 2>not acceptable and we're trying to change it, we don't

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<v Speaker 2>feel guilty because we didn't do anything wrong. We are

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<v Speaker 2>not our grandparents. No.

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<v Speaker 1>As a parent, my youngest being fourteen we had talked

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<v Speaker 1>earlier about Amazon and what you could find on Amazon

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<v Speaker 1>and the reality. So yeah, I just accept a certain reality,

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<v Speaker 1>but it doesn't change the reality. Also, as you mentioned,

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<v Speaker 1>the income disparity and also the exclusion that comes along

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<v Speaker 1>with all of this, So all these things being very important,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm glad that both of you brought these up.