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Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind over Murder podcast.

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Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer,

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and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my

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experience as the brother of a murder victim to help

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other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book

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on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders and I'm the co

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administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with

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Kristin Dilly.

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Speaker 1: My name is Kristin Dilly.

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Speaker 3: I'm a writer, a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate,

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as well as the social media manager and co administrator

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for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner

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in crime, Bill Thomas.

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Speaker 4: Welcome to Mind of a Murder. I'm Kristin Billy and

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I'm Bill Thomas. We are joined today by author and

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podcaster Gilbert King here to talk to us about the

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book Bone Valley, a true story of injustice and redemption

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in the heart of Florida, which is also a best

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selling podcast. Gilbert, thank you, thank you so much for

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joining us. We are so happy to have you here.

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Speaker 5: Oh, I'm so happy to be with you guys. I'm

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really going to enjoy this. I can tell.

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Speaker 4: Gilbert to start off by telling us about your life

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as an author and about the books that you've written,

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all of which you're amazing.

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Speaker 5: By the way, Oh, that's very lovely. Started writing about

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twenty years ago and really focusing on this time period

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called the pre civil rights era, which is like the

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nineteen forties and the nineteen fifties. So it's that area

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between the end of World War Two and the beginning

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of the Civil rights movement, and it was an extraordinarily

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violent time in American history. I went back and found

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one of these cases about these four young men in Groveland,

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Flarda who'd been accused of sexually assaulting a white woman,

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which is about the most explosive thing you can do

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in the Jim Crow South. And it led to the

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sheriff coming in and saying, I know exactly who did it,

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picking out four men, and he believed were troublemakers because

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two of them continued to wear their military uniforms, which

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is very provocative. And so he found four suspects and

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tried to pin it on them, and then Thurgood Marshall

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got involved, and once they were convicted, he got the

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case overturned by the US Supreme Court, and then the

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sheriff in this town said, oh, that's fine, we're gonna

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have a new trial. I'll go up and pick up

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the guys. Myself picked him up, and the next thing

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you know, they're laying in a ditch, one of them

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shot to death, one of them nearly dead. It was

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just a really phenomenal like if you look at it

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from just a crime narrative, it's just such a really

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interesting case because you have a sheriff's taking a law

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into his own hands and starts executing the defendants because

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he didn't believe the courts were going to do it.

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And so Thurgood Marshal comes in and takes this case.

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And it's one of those cases that was just forgotten

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in history. It happened in Florida, and nobody remembers it.

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They remember like the Scottsboro Boys in Alabama from nineteen

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thirty one, but that nobody got killed in that case.

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It was not as explosive. And so when I found

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this case, I thought, this really deserves a book. It's

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got Thurgood Marshall. It's a great crime narrative. I love crime,

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and so I wrote this book, and I'll just tell you, like,

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when it came out, it got like very few reviews.

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Nobody really cared about it. I got a letter from

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the publisher saying, basically called a remainder letter. It's the

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worce letter you could possibly get as an author. So

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it means that we have sold so few of your

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books that they're taking up space and we're going to

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start pulping them. Oh no, you can buy them for

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a dollar each and a source letter. It just means

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your books going out of print. And then two days

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later I won the Pulitzer Prize for the same.

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Speaker 2: Book, for the same book, did they turn off the

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pulping machine and say they did?

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Speaker 5: I said, can I buy some copies? And they said,

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we'll give you a box.

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Speaker 2: But that's it, because now it's such for you buying

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a thousands of books and a dollar.

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Speaker 5: A pot exactly exactly. It's it's the equivalent of kind

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of being struck by lightning. Because this was not on

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my radar. After all the disappointments of not selling and

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getting it pulped, I just had given up on that

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and then this thing comes out of the blue and

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it's just absolutely changed. My life, and the most important

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way is that it allowed me to co continue telling

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these kind of stories that I wanted to tell. I

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think before there was like they're not selling. But now

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that I've got the pull up Serprize, they can put

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that on the cover and people will pay attention. And

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I'm like, whatever it takes. But the only thing for

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me that matter was like, I just want to keep

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doing this. I'm was just starting to get good at it,

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I thought, and that would be ashamed to just walk away.

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Speaker 2: How is it that a pilot Prize winning book is

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teetering on being pulped and turned into I've reads a

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paper who submits books for pilozers. How does that process work?

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I'll be honest, this is what I think happened. I

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don't know all the facts, but what happened was my

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editor left in the middle of the process. Oh that's

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a problem, I.

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Speaker 5: Thought, Are they're going to cancel this book like that?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 5: But she said, I really believe in this. I think

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another editor should take it, and they gave it to

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a very experienced editor. But she said, look, I didn't

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I'm not really involved with this book is mostly done.

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She passed it off to her young assistant, and it

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was I think her first job and her first maybe

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the first time she's talking to an author for all

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I know. But she was so excited and so enthusiastic,

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and she just treated it like this is her book,

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which was and I you're the editor, let's do this,

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and we put the book together. And I think there

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was a time where they were putting books together from

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Harper and I think she must have thrown my books

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in for considerations because she was so proud of it. Yeah,

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so that young assistant, her name is Maya z If. She

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basically saved my publishing life. I'm pretty convinced of that.

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So very cool.

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Speaker 2: Does she know you feel this way?

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Speaker 5: Oh, she knows. We have this a look that we

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give each other whenever we see It's like she obvitously

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got promoted and for her too. He's now a force

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in publishing and we just got to know something happens

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years ago, and that was really beautiful.

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Speaker 2: Wow, that's a great story. And I love the we're

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just about to push these books off the loading dock

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and into the big shredding machine and you win appeal

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to her. It's amazing.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, it is sometimes I feel like you can't really

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get give any lessons about that because it's learned, like

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how do you get struck by lightning? But I do

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remind people like I had no control of how it

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was received. The only thing I control were the words

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were on the page, and I felt I did my job.

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Maybe my kids will read this one day and just go, oh,

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dad wrote a goo book. Maybe that's all that I'm

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going to get from this. There's no guarantees of sales

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or any The same book that was considered a disaster

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and a bomb was the same book that won the

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Pulitzer Prize. So I don't try to explain these things anymore.

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Just I just tell people, look, you have some control,

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but it's all in the writing that you do, and

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you never know. There's no guarantee anything's going to happen.

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Speaker 4: I'm going to predict that Bone Valley is going to

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do extraordinarily well because it is based on a podcast

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that is extraordinarily popular. I want to go ahead and

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have you start by talking to us about Leo Schofield,

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who is the basis for the Bone Valley podcast.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, and I'll give you an idea the kind of

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origin story because it's really interesting, and we do start

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the book out that way. And I was going around

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doing talks at the judicial conferences in Florida, and I

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showed up at this one down in Naples and it

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was all judges, all circuit judges, and at the end

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of it, this judge approaches me and he hands me

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this business card and it's got Leo Schofield's name on

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it and it says, not just wrongfully convicted, he's an

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innocent man. And I remember thinking, I wasn't sure. I'm

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not a lawyer. I wasn't sure, but I said, are

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judges really supposed to be saying like, basically, somebody got framed,

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it doesn't belong in prison. I didn't think so. And

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I showed it to some public defenders when I met

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with the following night, and they were like a judge rotive,

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like why would he do that? That violates his ethics,

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cannons and all that stuff. And they passed it around

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the table and it got to a guy, another lawyer

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in Polk County, and he looked at the card and

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he goes, I know this case. You should get in

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touch with that guy. So that kind of tipped me

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that there was something there beyond just maybe I had

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a crazy judge who knows. But then this public defenders

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said I know this case and it's worth looking into,

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and so that's when I started looking into it. I

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talked to Judge Cup. He promised me this guy was innocent,

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and he said, you ought to meet him. And I'd

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never been inside a prison before, so that was really

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my first trip into a prison. It was really striking

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to see the way he walked, in the way he

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carried himself. He basically said, I wish I could remember

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the exact words it's in the book, but he says,

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I don't need you to validate my truth. I'm an

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innocent man. Whether you believe it or not doesn't change

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the fact that I'm an innocent man. And there was

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just something really powerful about that. And he wasn't trying

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to convince me of anything. But I started reading the

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trial transcript and doing all these research, and I said,

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there's something complicated here. I don't really think this is right,

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but I really wanted to take my time, and ultimately

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Leo has just become this really remarkable person in my

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life because he said, there's full transparency here. I'll answer everything.

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Some of the questions you might ask, I won't know

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because I wasn't there, but I'll tell you everything. And

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his story has never changed over thirty six years, seven years.

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He's always stuck to the same story. And then just

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declared his innocence. And sometimes when you talk to people

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like that, you can just look in their eyes and

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when they tell you look into everything. I'm not afraid

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of anything. And the more you find, the more innocent.

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I'm going to be calm in your eyes. And he

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challenged me with that, and that's exactly what happened.

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Speaker 2: You said in the first episode of the Bone Valley Podcast,

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Season one, Episode one, you said there were thousands of

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pages in these transcripts. First of all, how do you

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access them? Does someone printed out for you and you've

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got thousands of pages? Or are you looking at a

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computer until your eyes fall out of your head? How's

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it all work?

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Speaker 5: Yeah? In the first instance, I believe I got a

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link to the Polk County Clerk and they're putting a

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lot of these cases online and so I was able

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to link to that and it's all reading online. But

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I got I always say, like halfway through it, I

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just said I don't think this guy's guilty. I don't

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think he did it. I could see how the prosecutor

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was cutting corners and describing things that were not in

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the transcripts. He was really manipulating the evidence and the testimony.

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And I got to say he was a very good

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and powerful prosecutor. I really admire how good he was.

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He almost felt like saying, this guy's so good he

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could put innocent men in prison for life. That's how

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good he is.

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Speaker 2: And apparently he has and he.

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Speaker 5: Was yeah, and he was all I have to say. Also,

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in Leo's defense, Leo ended up with this I call

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him a kind of like a better call Saul kind

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of lawyer. He's popular, everybody loved it. Didn't do any research.

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He just said I got the personality, I'll charm everybody.

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He just got steamrolled in court by a really good prosecutor,

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and that those days might have worked well in the

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sixties and seventies, but in the eighties they just weren't

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holding up. He was getting a little old, and he

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wasn't as.

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Speaker 4: Sharp in the recounting of all the factors that went

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into sending Leo to prison for a crime he did

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not commit. Would you say that it was the lawyer

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that was a nail in the coffin, or like, what

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was it? Ultimately that sort of was the tipping point.

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Speaker 5: There was a few factors. One of them, the most

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important factor was the beginning. The state. John Aguerre of

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the prosecutor opened up with something like twenty one straight

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witnesses that just spoke about Leo's character and his temper.

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None of them had anything to do with seeing anything

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in the crime, but it was character evidence, and honestly,

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every lawyer I've talked to said that never should have happened.

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The defense attorney did not object to that. And there's

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a certain amount of overkill where you can poison the

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jury and prejudice them by just doing day after day

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of just people saying he's a bad person, and he

250
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fights with his wife, he breaks things, he gets really angry,

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he throws his guitar into a bonfire, and by the

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time the case gets to the evidence, people have already

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made up their mind. And that's when I had people

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I consult with. I said, read the transcript and tell

255
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me what you think, and they all said, this trial

256
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was over before the third day. The people had already

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made up their mind. So I think that was probably

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the contributing thing. There's a couple other moments in the

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case that are just weird and innuendo ish, and they

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got played by the prosecute. I'll give you the perfect example.

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So they find Michelle's body on day three of the search,

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and the reason they find it is because on day two,

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the night of day two, they find her car abandoned

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on the side of the road. So now they have

265
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a place to search. They can trace where the car

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was back to the restaurant where she disappeared, and so

267
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that was where they started searching, and they broke up

268
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the search party and Leo's father found the body. Anybody

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who was doing this search would have looked in this place,

270
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but it happened to be Leo's father. And after he

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found the body, he said something that the prosecution used

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against him with great fast. He said, yeah, I found

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God must have led me to her. And it got

274
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turned into this premonition and spun into the story like

275
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he'd wake woke up in the middle of the night

276
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and said I know where the body is and led

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police there. That's not what he's that's not what happened.

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He just once he found the body. I can't imagine

279
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the trauma of finding your daughter in law floating face down.

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And I think he tried to put some kind of

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it must have been my destiny to find the body.

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God led me there, And that just got turned into

283
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something that people just think he had prior knowledge. He

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knew where the body was and so that that hurt

285
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him a lot too. And there was a few other

286
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things here and there, but it was a perfect storm

287
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of things against Leo.

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Speaker 4: It really did sound exactly like that, like here is

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everything that could possibly go wrong in a trial, and

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it went in that way. And again, for the benefit

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of our listeners, when we say Leo did not murder

292
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his first wife, Michelle, he really truly did not murder

293
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his first wife Michelle, and that is as a result

294
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of the fact that someone else did and someone else

295
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confessed to it. Can you tell us a little bit

296
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about who actually did murder Michelle Skofia else?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, And this is a crazy story and I really

298
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got it. I was able to write about this in

299
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the book and just expand on it because it was

300
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so interesting to me. But after several years in prison,

301
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Leo's just trying to educate himself. He finished his high school,

302
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he got college degrees. It got so to the point

303
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where he was actually a teacher's aid and he was

304
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helping the teachers and in walks this six foot tall

305
00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:23,720
blonde woman who's just a couple of years older than him,

306
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and Leo becomes the teacher's aid and it's like a

307
00:13:25,919 --> 00:13:28,879
Hollywood scriptum and they fall in love. And people that

308
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just have a hard time believing that they've been married

309
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for thirty years. This is not sometimes you think about

310
00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:35,960
Ted Bundy, he's got groupies. It wasn't that kind of situation.

311
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And once you get to know Leo, if you could

312
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imagine that why people would find him interesting. He's claiming

313
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his innocence, but because he meets the social workers, she

314
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has to transfer, otherwise she could be jeopardizing her job,

315
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so that they didn't really get together until after she transferred.

316
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Leo said, look, I'm not going to lie to you.

317
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I've been through so much. I lost my last wife

318
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and I got accused of her murder, and I'm not

319
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going to try and convince you anything. But if you

320
00:13:59,519 --> 00:14:01,279
want to look at into it yourself and ask me

321
00:14:01,279 --> 00:14:04,080
any questions, I'll happily answer, and so she takes them

322
00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:05,799
up on that, and she starts going to the clerk's

323
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office and researching it, and she finds this document that

324
00:14:08,720 --> 00:14:11,960
there's these unidentified fingerprints found in Michelle's car. They didn't

325
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match Leo, they didn't match Michelle. They just unidentified because

326
00:14:15,399 --> 00:14:17,519
there wasn't an Athos system that you could run it through,

327
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so they just sat there. And so she ends up

328
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asking a friend to hers who works for the sheriff's office,

329
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to run the Prince just to see and it's her

330
00:14:26,399 --> 00:14:29,399
friend Cinda and her friend Senda's. Look, this has probably

331
00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:31,399
been looked into, this is going nowhere, but just to

332
00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:33,759
shut you up, I'm going to run these prints, runs

333
00:14:33,759 --> 00:14:36,559
the Prince and talk about it in the books. She's

334
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just staring at her computer screen when the prints come

335
00:14:38,559 --> 00:14:42,559
up and she does holy shit. It finds out, Yo,

336
00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:45,159
it's a hit, the worst hit you can imagine. It's

337
00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:47,720
a man who's killed several people, who lives in that

338
00:14:47,799 --> 00:14:51,240
same area, and he's in prison for another murder. And

339
00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:53,519
so now it's not the tow truck driver, it's not

340
00:14:53,639 --> 00:14:56,000
like a detective from the crime scene, it's not some

341
00:14:56,120 --> 00:14:59,279
innocent byes it's a person who's killed people in basically

342
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the same spot where Michelle was found. And that's where

343
00:15:02,159 --> 00:15:04,679
the story gets really dicey, because first thing they do

344
00:15:04,799 --> 00:15:07,799
is send some investigators and then they he talks to

345
00:15:07,879 --> 00:15:12,080
John Aguero Intoguero's office. Now this is also to remind you,

346
00:15:12,159 --> 00:15:15,000
John Aguero has put this man in prison and got

347
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the death penalty against Jeremy, so he knows exactly who

348
00:15:17,399 --> 00:15:20,120
he is. Yeah, and now he's coming back into the office,

349
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no tape recorders, no witnesses, and the next thing you know,

350
00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:26,360
Jeremy saying, I just stole stereos from her car. I

351
00:15:26,399 --> 00:15:29,039
used to travel the highway and steal stereos and that

352
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became the story to explain why the fingerprints were in there.

353
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Speaker 2: So it sounds like he's being coached or guided, or

354
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being even told what to say, which would steer the

355
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potential involvement in her murder away from him.

356
00:15:45,399 --> 00:15:47,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, and that's exactly what he says happened. And we

357
00:15:48,039 --> 00:15:50,320
interviewed him a couple times. I've talked to him many

358
00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:52,440
times about it. And as Leo says, you don't go

359
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into a meeting with a guy like Jeremy Scott and

360
00:15:54,879 --> 00:15:57,360
not have witnesses and not have a tape recorder unless

361
00:15:57,360 --> 00:15:59,639
you don't want a record of what your conversation is

362
00:15:59,679 --> 00:16:02,559
going to be exactly. And Leo's been around the block

363
00:16:02,679 --> 00:16:05,759
knows this, and that's exactly what happened. Jeremy has been

364
00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:07,799
very honest with me over the years. He said that

365
00:16:07,879 --> 00:16:10,879
John Aguero promised to help him with his parole. He says,

366
00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:13,879
you have a state attorney, assistant state attorney who is

367
00:16:13,919 --> 00:16:16,759
on your side. This is your chance at freedom. Just

368
00:16:16,759 --> 00:16:19,759
stick to the story. And Jeremy said, so I sticked

369
00:16:19,799 --> 00:16:19,960
to this.

370
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Speaker 2: He didn't the prosecutor didn't want to hear about Jeremy

371
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admitting that he had actually killed Michelle No.

372
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Speaker 5: And later on Jeremy told me that he confessed to

373
00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:31,279
John Aguero and said, I'm the one that did that.

374
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And Aguero took out these aerial photos from the canal

375
00:16:34,679 --> 00:16:37,200
where you can't see a body, and he said, point

376
00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:40,200
to the place where the body was found, and Jeremy did,

377
00:16:40,679 --> 00:16:42,399
and he said, I knew exactly where it was because

378
00:16:42,399 --> 00:16:45,519
I'm the one who put it in. But Aguero didn't

379
00:16:45,519 --> 00:16:47,279
want to hear it, and so they in the evident

380
00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:49,519
Jerry hearing Jeremy stood up on the stand and said,

381
00:16:49,559 --> 00:16:51,759
I just stole the stereo, and the state just said, Yep,

382
00:16:51,759 --> 00:16:55,240
that's all he is. That's his mo. He's a stereo thief. Meanwhile,

383
00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:58,440
they prosecuted him twice for murder. Once he got acquitted.

384
00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:00,759
The other time he's convicted and sentence to death, so

385
00:17:00,759 --> 00:17:02,720
they knew exactly who he was. He's not just a

386
00:17:02,759 --> 00:17:06,759
stereo thief. That was just disingenuous in the extreme.

387
00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:10,559
Speaker 2: It sounds like prosecutor Guero just wanted to preserve his

388
00:17:10,759 --> 00:17:15,039
win convicting Leo wrongfully and wasn't even willing to look

389
00:17:15,079 --> 00:17:16,319
at the real story.

390
00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:18,200
Speaker 5: No, and I think that was part of the problem.

391
00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:21,640
Here's the guy who's convicted both Jeremy Scott and Leo Schofield.

392
00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:23,799
This is this could open up a big can of worms.

393
00:17:24,079 --> 00:17:26,440
I don't know why the State Attorney's office didn't send

394
00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:28,680
a different prosecutor in there and have him handle it,

395
00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:32,720
because there's a ethical conflict between you having convicted both

396
00:17:32,799 --> 00:17:36,279
men and that never happened. Some years go by and

397
00:17:36,319 --> 00:17:38,559
the Jeremy doesn't get any help with his parole. Guero

398
00:17:38,559 --> 00:17:41,599
doesn't even show up, and then he dies. Jeremy Scott

399
00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:44,519
said he wrote a letter, talked to Leo's lawyers and said,

400
00:17:44,519 --> 00:17:46,720
all right, and you're ready for the real story. I'm

401
00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:49,680
the guy that did it. And he started mentioning details

402
00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:52,960
and they get to another evidentiary hearing and it's just

403
00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:55,359
so depressing to see. But they just destroyed his credibility.

404
00:17:55,359 --> 00:17:57,359
We lie the first, can't be trusted, and then the

405
00:17:57,440 --> 00:18:01,279
judge decides that he's not worthy to be and they

406
00:18:01,319 --> 00:18:03,519
just dismiss him out right. This was a very easy

407
00:18:03,519 --> 00:18:05,400
and convenient thing to do by law, but it was

408
00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:07,160
definitely not getting us closer to the truth.

409
00:18:07,799 --> 00:18:11,440
Speaker 4: The sheer injustice that's demonstrated by this case and this

410
00:18:11,839 --> 00:18:15,039
total lack of accountability from the justice system in Florida

411
00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:18,640
is it was maddening to read, and I'm sure it

412
00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:21,720
was even worse to live. How did you deal with

413
00:18:21,799 --> 00:18:24,720
the anger and the frustration that must have resulted from

414
00:18:24,759 --> 00:18:27,319
working on this case and being told over and over again,

415
00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:29,680
no Leo's to Keller, even though Jeremy confessed.

416
00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:32,720
Speaker 5: And that was the thing. I felt like Jeremy Scott

417
00:18:32,759 --> 00:18:35,519
had a lot of the answers to this case. He's

418
00:18:35,559 --> 00:18:38,160
the I believe he's the last person to see Michelle alive.

419
00:18:38,599 --> 00:18:41,400
So I had listened to all his tapes of recordings

420
00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:44,200
when he talked to detectives and when he denied it initially,

421
00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:46,920
And he cannot tell a straight story about the lie

422
00:18:47,359 --> 00:18:49,680
because he's got he's got a little bit of brain damage.

423
00:18:49,759 --> 00:18:53,480
He's got like a seventy nine IQ. When he starts

424
00:18:53,599 --> 00:18:55,880
making up stories, he may makes so many mistakes and

425
00:18:55,920 --> 00:18:58,839
gets things wrong. It was just very obvious reading that

426
00:18:58,920 --> 00:19:01,160
and listening to him that he was not telling the truth.

427
00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:04,880
And so once I ended up interviewing him in prison, yeah,

428
00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:06,400
I didn't really know what to expect from him. I

429
00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:07,640
didn't know if he was going to be hostile. He

430
00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:09,680
didn't want to talk to anybody anymore, and a lot

431
00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:12,720
of times he was off his meds and unpredictable. But

432
00:19:12,799 --> 00:19:15,279
we went in and I just could not believe how

433
00:19:15,319 --> 00:19:18,559
candid he was. We didn't talk to him like interrogations,

434
00:19:18,799 --> 00:19:21,400
like prosecutors and lawyers have talked to him. We almost

435
00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:24,160
used a therapeutic approach. Does it make you feel better

436
00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:26,839
to talk about these things? And just put him relaxed.

437
00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:29,519
And you know, he said, I have trouble sleeping. And

438
00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:31,400
one of the things that he said was just so

439
00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:34,759
mind blowing. We asked him, do you think about Michelle

440
00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:37,119
a lot? And he said all the time. I go

441
00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:39,079
to bed at night and I see the faces and

442
00:19:39,119 --> 00:19:40,519
it's a nightmare and I can't get out of it.

443
00:19:40,599 --> 00:19:43,000
He said, that's my punishment. And I think he was

444
00:19:43,039 --> 00:19:45,640
just reliving his past and the people that he killed,

445
00:19:45,759 --> 00:19:48,519
and it was haunting him. In the end, he said,

446
00:19:48,559 --> 00:19:50,759
if I can do one good thing, like maybe help

447
00:19:50,839 --> 00:19:53,119
Leo or help the families of the people I kill,

448
00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:54,759
I'm going to do it that way. I'll just tell

449
00:19:54,759 --> 00:19:57,920
the truth so they know what happened. In the process

450
00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:00,519
of investigating Michelle's case, he admitted to an other murder

451
00:20:00,519 --> 00:20:02,839
that he got away with, and I'm absolutely convinced it

452
00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:04,680
was because I have evidence and everything and I can't

453
00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:07,039
get I'm not trying to get somebody out of prison now,

454
00:20:07,039 --> 00:20:08,920
I'm trying to actually get someone charged with a murder.

455
00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:11,359
I couldn't get any cooperation anywhere. It was just it's

456
00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:13,960
mind blowing. It just shows you how hard this stuff is.

457
00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:16,400
There is no doubt in anybody's mind who looks into

458
00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:19,039
this that Jeremy Scott is Michelle's killer. He just brought

459
00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:22,119
up so many details, all the remorse that the state

460
00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:25,200
wants Leo to show, and he can't because he claims innocence.

461
00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:28,680
Jeremy's showing that remorse. He's haunted by his actions, and

462
00:20:28,759 --> 00:20:31,200
so that was what really made it really interesting to me.

463
00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:35,920
Speaker 2: With the original prosecutor gone now having died, there's no

464
00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:39,920
chance of them taking a fresh look at these cases.

465
00:20:40,079 --> 00:20:43,799
And I know that Leo is out of jail now,

466
00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:47,279
but he's not been exonerated. And at the same time,

467
00:20:47,559 --> 00:20:52,039
you've got Jeremy Scott confessing to Michelle's murder. Is there

468
00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:56,319
no one willing to take this up on the prosecutor.

469
00:20:55,759 --> 00:20:59,599
Speaker 5: Side, Not in this particular circuit. I think John Aguero

470
00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:02,799
entered a lot of young prosecutors. He was having some

471
00:21:02,839 --> 00:21:05,559
personal issues and they demoted him a little bit, but

472
00:21:05,599 --> 00:21:08,799
he still trained. And this prosecutor took it over, was

473
00:21:08,839 --> 00:21:12,440
like his star pupil el Jeremy.

474
00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:15,160
Speaker 2: He's a mentor and.

475
00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:18,119
Speaker 5: Yeah, and she was really she still is. She's a

476
00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:21,079
very bright attorney. And this is really hard. So I

477
00:21:21,319 --> 00:21:23,839
hoping Leo got some dummy prosecutor, but it just never happened.

478
00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:25,880
There was always really bright people. They knew what they

479
00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:28,400
were doing. In a way. It makes it a little

480
00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:31,359
bit more disturbing because I believe that I don't think

481
00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:33,079
you can look at this rationally and think that Leo

482
00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:35,279
was guilty of this crime. But they've taken this position

483
00:21:35,319 --> 00:21:37,559
and they're really like doubled down on it, and it's

484
00:21:37,599 --> 00:21:38,960
really difficult to go up against.

485
00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:41,880
Speaker 2: We've seen this in the Colonial Parkway murders, and I've

486
00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:45,039
said this many times on Mind of a Murder and

487
00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:50,720
other podcasts and media appearances. We find that institutional interests

488
00:21:51,039 --> 00:21:55,640
supersede the pursuit of justice. It's all about protecting the

489
00:21:55,759 --> 00:21:59,400
reputation of in our example, the FBI and the Virginia

490
00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:04,440
State Police in this amazing story in Bone Valley. It's

491
00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:09,079
protecting the prosecutors and former prosecutors who handled in I

492
00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:11,400
think mishandled these cases.

493
00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:14,880
Speaker 5: You're absolutely right. It's just this concept of finality, like

494
00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:16,960
we don't ever want to disturb a jury that has

495
00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:18,880
heard this case. We don't want to second guess them.

496
00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:22,279
That's all fine and good. I think sometimes in this

497
00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:25,400
case where you have somebody who's forensically connected to the

498
00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:28,880
crime scene, who's extraordinarily violent and is saying he did

499
00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:31,559
it to me, that would have been reasonable doubt if

500
00:22:31,559 --> 00:22:33,200
that would have show up in LEO. But this a

501
00:22:33,279 --> 00:22:35,799
jury has never heard this evidence, and it's really come

502
00:22:35,839 --> 00:22:39,039
down to one judge who makes that decision. They're the gatekeeper,

503
00:22:39,079 --> 00:22:41,039
and they say he's not credible. This does not belong

504
00:22:41,119 --> 00:22:43,359
in front of a jury. And so he's never been

505
00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:46,680
tested and questioned in a criminal court. He's been questioned

506
00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:50,039
in evident share hearings, and he confessed over forty times.

507
00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:52,200
The last time they spoke with him and wow, last

508
00:22:52,279 --> 00:22:54,680
words were I killed her, And he was getting upset.

509
00:22:54,759 --> 00:22:55,799
This man didn't do it.

510
00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:56,480
Speaker 2: I did it.

511
00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:59,279
Speaker 5: I'll take a polygraph test. He was really adamant about it.

512
00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:04,400
Speaker 2: But and Jeremy Scott is he in prison currently and

513
00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:06,480
he will he ever get out of prison.

514
00:23:06,799 --> 00:23:09,160
Speaker 5: No, he'll never get out because he's I believe he's

515
00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:11,440
killed four people. He's been convicted on the last one.

516
00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:13,720
I think he got away with three murders. And even

517
00:23:13,759 --> 00:23:15,960
in prison, as I was talking to him, I'll just

518
00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:17,839
tell you this strange story. It's in the book. He

519
00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:20,160
wrote me this cryptic note, mister King. This is after

520
00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:22,519
a couple of years, mister King, this is the last

521
00:23:22,519 --> 00:23:24,359
note I'll be writing to you, And he said, the

522
00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:27,119
monster in me is coming out again. Good luck with

523
00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:30,000
your story, Jeremy. And I'm like, the hell does that mean?

524
00:23:30,799 --> 00:23:32,920
I got this? And then I lost track of him

525
00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:33,400
for a couple of.

526
00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:37,160
Speaker 2: Months, and he's incarcerated or anything.

527
00:23:38,319 --> 00:23:40,480
Speaker 5: No, And so I started doing record requests and I

528
00:23:40,519 --> 00:23:43,640
found out that he had stabbed an inmate. Okay, so

529
00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:47,240
he got put into solitary confinement and the inmates survived

530
00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:50,759
the attack. And a couple of months later he called

531
00:23:50,799 --> 00:23:52,640
me he was get a phone call. It got two

532
00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:54,359
phone calls a week, and he had nobody to call.

533
00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:56,599
So I was the person he would call. And I

534
00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:59,240
said where were you? And he said, oh, I had

535
00:23:59,279 --> 00:24:01,319
some trouble. He said, somebody put a hit on me.

536
00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:03,759
I knew this guy was waiting for me, but I've

537
00:24:03,799 --> 00:24:06,000
been in prison a long time. I know when that's happening.

538
00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:08,400
And so I just one night, I waited until he

539
00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:10,160
fell asleep. I went into the bathroom. It's all on

540
00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:13,319
video too. He went into the bathroom, retrieved this makeshift

541
00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:15,039
knife and went up to the guy that he thought

542
00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:17,319
was going to kill him and started stabbing him. Didn't

543
00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:19,480
kill him. And what's really interesting, he said to me,

544
00:24:19,559 --> 00:24:22,519
because we've been talking a lot about remorse and reflection.

545
00:24:22,799 --> 00:24:24,519
And he said, mister King, I could have killed him,

546
00:24:24,559 --> 00:24:26,119
I could have put it in his heart, but I didn't.

547
00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:30,200
So I was thinking baby steps, Jeremy, baby steps. I

548
00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:32,440
don't know really what you say to that. But he's

549
00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:34,920
never getting out of prison. I asked people, I ask

550
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:38,720
prosecutors this, if there's a man who's this extraordinarily violent,

551
00:24:38,799 --> 00:24:41,279
who's never getting out of prison, what's the thing that

552
00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:43,880
he can do to be most helpful to society. And

553
00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:46,720
the answer is just confess to things you've done and

554
00:24:47,039 --> 00:24:49,079
try to bring some relief. And also, there's a man

555
00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:52,200
who's been wrongfully convicted because of his actions, and so

556
00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:55,599
he's done everything right, and he's stuck by those stories,

557
00:24:55,599 --> 00:24:57,599
and he's even frustrated that he can't be more of

558
00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:00,640
a help I think he believes that polygraph tests have

559
00:25:00,799 --> 00:25:03,880
no error rate. They're just completely legit. They can tell

560
00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:06,680
if you are lying or not. That's his mind, and

561
00:25:07,079 --> 00:25:09,359
he's when he says I'll take a polygraph on this,

562
00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:11,519
he believes that's going to be the ultimate proof on this.

563
00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:15,400
Speaker 2: You're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back

564
00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:21,599
after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at

565
00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:22,559
mindover Murder.

566
00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:26,000
Speaker 4: I loved the first season of Bone Valley, but I

567
00:25:26,039 --> 00:25:28,000
have to say I think I almost liked the second

568
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:30,200
season a little bit more because you really took the

569
00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:33,640
time to tell Jeremy Scott's story, and you certainly were

570
00:25:33,799 --> 00:25:37,960
under no obligation to do that. Why did you feel

571
00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:41,160
like it was important to tell Jeremy's story in addition

572
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:42,119
to Leo's story.

573
00:25:42,599 --> 00:25:44,680
Speaker 5: And the answer to that is, I had no idea

574
00:25:44,759 --> 00:25:47,480
that this would happen. I had no plan. But after

575
00:25:47,519 --> 00:25:49,559
the first season of Bone Valley came out, I found

576
00:25:49,559 --> 00:25:52,039
out Jeremy had a son who is now thirty five

577
00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:55,200
years old, and he listened to the podcast. Was like

578
00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:57,200
two months afterwards it had come out.

579
00:25:57,319 --> 00:25:57,920
Speaker 2: Oh interesting.

580
00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:00,319
Speaker 5: He just recalled me in a really frantic move. Is

581
00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:02,599
that's the first time I've ever heard my father's voice.

582
00:26:02,839 --> 00:26:05,160
I don't know anything about him, I just had.

583
00:26:05,039 --> 00:26:08,279
Speaker 2: They never just met or spent any time together.

584
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:12,079
Speaker 5: Never he got her pregnant. He got his girlfriend pregnant

585
00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:14,200
right at the time of the last murder. He committed

586
00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:18,559
right and so he as a courtesy his girlfriend brought

587
00:26:18,599 --> 00:26:21,599
this baby to death Row at Rayford and said I'll

588
00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:23,000
let you see your son, but that's it.

589
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:23,480
Speaker 2: Wow.

590
00:26:23,519 --> 00:26:25,400
Speaker 5: And that was the only time he'd ever seen when

591
00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:27,440
he was like probably three months old, and so he'd

592
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:29,720
written letters. He tried to stay in touch with his son,

593
00:26:29,799 --> 00:26:32,319
but nobody answered. And I think it was just because

594
00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:34,759
he's a killer. Stay away from him, don't do it.

595
00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:38,200
When Justin listened to the podcast, his takeaway was like,

596
00:26:38,279 --> 00:26:40,440
he sounded like a broken person. He didn't sound like

597
00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:43,200
a monster everybody was telling me about. He sounded like

598
00:26:43,279 --> 00:26:45,720
someone who's trying to fix something that he did and

599
00:26:45,839 --> 00:26:48,039
he believed in Leo, and he said, I think I

600
00:26:48,079 --> 00:26:49,839
want to get in touch with my dad. And so

601
00:26:50,279 --> 00:26:52,039
I said, that's really interesting. I think I can help

602
00:26:52,079 --> 00:26:54,480
with that. Let's see how it goes. And in the

603
00:26:54,559 --> 00:26:57,359
course of just interviewing Justin and learning about him, it's

604
00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:01,960
just remarkable because for Jamie, who had a relationship with

605
00:27:02,039 --> 00:27:04,359
Jeremy for about two years before he went off to prison,

606
00:27:04,519 --> 00:27:07,160
and she knew what he was capable of, and she said,

607
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:09,079
have to admit he had a good side to him.

608
00:27:09,079 --> 00:27:11,640
He could be charming and really sensitive at times, and

609
00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:14,720
she said, Justin is the good side of Jeremy. He's

610
00:27:14,799 --> 00:27:17,359
just turned into this beautiful young man, never been in

611
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:21,599
trouble with the law. He's really empathic, and the way

612
00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:25,799
he's described, like all the people coming together to help Jeremy. Oh,

613
00:27:25,839 --> 00:27:28,079
after this horrible story. Nobody wants to see him out

614
00:27:28,079 --> 00:27:30,599
of prison, even his own son's and he doesn't belong

615
00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:32,720
out of prison, but that doesn't mean he can't be

616
00:27:32,759 --> 00:27:35,319
treated like a human being. And it just the story

617
00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:37,920
became so human to me. I was worried in the

618
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:40,400
beginning that it might be too traumatic, like almost like

619
00:27:40,519 --> 00:27:43,720
trauma porn to go into this. It was actually extraordinarily

620
00:27:43,799 --> 00:27:46,680
healing for the people to talk about it, and I

621
00:27:46,839 --> 00:27:49,160
learned a lot from this. It was a very difficult

622
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:52,000
season to produce because it was so emotional at times,

623
00:27:52,039 --> 00:27:54,680
and trying to balance that line, are we just out

624
00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:57,720
there creating sympathy for Jeremy? And I said, it's not us,

625
00:27:57,960 --> 00:27:59,640
it's the people who want to come back into his

626
00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:02,599
life that's worth knowing. And so it took me into

627
00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:04,599
that direction, and ever since then, I've started to meet

628
00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:06,759
more and more of Jeremery's family, and I thought they

629
00:28:06,839 --> 00:28:08,720
might be mad at me because I was really honest

630
00:28:08,759 --> 00:28:11,440
about what Jeremy had done. He said, no, you got

631
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:13,480
that right. But we feel really bad that we've lost

632
00:28:13,559 --> 00:28:15,160
touch with him, and we're going to reconnect. And so

633
00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:17,359
they have reconnected. And I don't know if it's a

634
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:20,519
beautiful story, but it's something that's extraordinarily human that you

635
00:28:20,559 --> 00:28:24,079
don't get to dip into that often. And hear conversations

636
00:28:24,079 --> 00:28:27,079
with Jeremy. He's broken, he's lost all his stuff in

637
00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:29,480
his locker, he's got nothing. And once in a while

638
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:31,839
he'll say something, but mister King, like I rooined a

639
00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:34,000
man's life. I didn't just take his wife. I put

640
00:28:34,039 --> 00:28:36,319
him in prison for thirty six years and he has

641
00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:38,000
I got to live with that. It's the wrong thing.

642
00:28:38,039 --> 00:28:40,119
And I don't know what else I can do except

643
00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:42,599
tell you what I did. And those candid moments like

644
00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:45,240
I feel like he's not manipulating. He had nothing to

645
00:28:45,319 --> 00:28:48,000
work with. He was just really concerned about, like staying

646
00:28:48,039 --> 00:28:50,000
in touch with his family, and that was all he

647
00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:52,359
could really expect. He's not getting out of prison. Nobody

648
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:54,039
wants to see him out, But does that mean he

649
00:28:54,039 --> 00:28:56,680
can't be treated like a human being? And for Justin

650
00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:59,640
to say, look, Jeremy's biggest fear is just dying and

651
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:03,160
being buried in a prison cemetery. Yeah, and just I said,

652
00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:05,000
I'm not going to let that happen. He deserves to

653
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:07,720
be buried like a human being. I'll claim the body.

654
00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:10,359
And I just thought, this story is now really I'm

655
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:12,880
in it. I'm in, like in the middle of it.

656
00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:15,440
I just think it's really worth telling. And I thank

657
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:17,400
you for saying that, because I think it's it really

658
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:18,960
is an extraordinary part of the story.

659
00:29:19,319 --> 00:29:19,440
Speaker 2: Now.

660
00:29:19,559 --> 00:29:24,039
Speaker 4: I cried when Justin said that Bill knows I'm a softie.

661
00:29:24,279 --> 00:29:24,880
Speaker 5: I really am.

662
00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:27,480
Speaker 4: But the fact and the fact that he just said

663
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:31,039
it so quickly, I'll claim him. He's my dad. It

664
00:29:31,119 --> 00:29:33,680
was like, oh my god. The way that you guys

665
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:38,359
layered in the audio where you alternated Justin's letters with Jeremy's.

666
00:29:38,839 --> 00:29:41,119
There were real tears shed in this house when I

667
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:45,039
was listening to it, because it's so powerful. I cannot

668
00:29:45,119 --> 00:29:47,079
tell you how much good it has done me as

669
00:29:47,079 --> 00:29:51,240
a human being to hear that. It's very Really, you

670
00:29:51,279 --> 00:29:53,799
guys have done something really special with that second season.

671
00:29:54,359 --> 00:29:56,279
Speaker 5: Thanks for saying that, Chris. I'll tell you, like when

672
00:29:56,279 --> 00:29:58,640
I first heard the cut of that medley where at

673
00:29:58,680 --> 00:29:59,799
the end and then you all of a sudden you

674
00:29:59,839 --> 00:30:01,880
hear Leo talking to Jeremy, you hear all these I

675
00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:03,720
got ball. I couldn't believe what I was hearing. It

676
00:30:03,759 --> 00:30:06,160
was so powerful to me, and like, I'm just my

677
00:30:06,279 --> 00:30:08,319
team that I've been working with on all of this

678
00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:11,960
from Lava for Good. Karen Krnhaber is the senior producer

679
00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:14,759
and Britz Spangler does the sound, and just always felt

680
00:30:14,759 --> 00:30:16,240
like we were on the right page with this. We

681
00:30:16,279 --> 00:30:18,359
always felt it the same way. And I would hear

682
00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:20,880
these cuts and these mixes of these layers and the

683
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:24,519
sound of like people just being human beings and the letters,

684
00:30:24,599 --> 00:30:26,240
and I just it was almost too much for me,

685
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:28,480
Like I just I knew the story. Hearing it that

686
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:31,200
way was just so powerful. And it still gets me

687
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:33,119
in the heart when I think about it. And I'm

688
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:34,880
still in touch with Jeremy and I'm still in touch

689
00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:38,240
with Leo, and nothing has really changed, and it's I

690
00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:40,359
don't know where it's going, but hopefully it's going to

691
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:41,400
lead to justice.

692
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:45,039
Speaker 2: It's fascinating because I think that a lot of examples

693
00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:50,640
when we talk about wrongfully convicted individuals. This story takes

694
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:54,920
a very interesting twist with the introduction of Jeremy Scott,

695
00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:59,799
because Jeremy Scott is clearly guilty, he admits his own

696
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:03,480
in Michelle's murder and the murder of other individuals, and

697
00:31:03,559 --> 00:31:08,119
yet there's something redemptive about your interaction with him. I

698
00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:10,279
was thinking about the fact that there isn't much you

699
00:31:10,359 --> 00:31:13,920
can offer a person who's in prison for the rest

700
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:19,079
of their life, but connecting him to his family, which

701
00:31:19,119 --> 00:31:22,920
is obviously incredibly important to him, is something that you're

702
00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:26,079
able to facilitate. Did you think to yourself, this is

703
00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:29,000
something I can bring to the table as someone who

704
00:31:29,039 --> 00:31:29,960
knows all the players.

705
00:31:30,319 --> 00:31:32,799
Speaker 5: I'm a little bit reluctant to because I'm trying to

706
00:31:32,799 --> 00:31:35,000
tell the story. And the next thing I know, I'm

707
00:31:35,039 --> 00:31:37,160
in it on the bridge between the son and the father.

708
00:31:37,279 --> 00:31:39,559
And we have one character who comes in, Mary, the

709
00:31:39,559 --> 00:31:41,599
house cleaner, who's just a fan of the podcast and

710
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:44,119
she listens to it. She's like, this guy doesn't have

711
00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:46,119
money for deoder, and I'm going to send him twenty bucks.

712
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:49,160
And the next thing I know, yeah, they're pent piles

713
00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:52,279
again and it's just and she's extraordinary and she became

714
00:31:52,319 --> 00:31:54,920
a mother figure for him. Are you brushing your teeth?

715
00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:56,440
Are you going to need to see a doctor young man.

716
00:31:56,640 --> 00:32:00,799
She just she's just so charismatic, and we gave her

717
00:32:00,799 --> 00:32:03,240
a whole episode because she was just so wonderful. And

718
00:32:03,599 --> 00:32:06,039
even today, she still visits Jeremy in prison, and she

719
00:32:06,119 --> 00:32:08,519
still watches out for him and make sure he has

720
00:32:08,599 --> 00:32:11,160
reading material. And I think when Justin just said this

721
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:13,640
is a story about just people trying to help each other,

722
00:32:14,039 --> 00:32:16,160
I just that was the theme of this. I didn't

723
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:18,319
really think I would have that kind of a role,

724
00:32:18,359 --> 00:32:20,880
but eventually I'm not ashamed of it. But there's times

725
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:22,519
where Jeremy and I would talk on the phone and

726
00:32:22,519 --> 00:32:24,440
we just talk about books I sent him, and I

727
00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:26,599
felt that was really making him compact, like he was

728
00:32:26,599 --> 00:32:29,599
talking about the characters and like feeling for certain characters.

729
00:32:29,599 --> 00:32:31,920
And I'd send him like The Hunger Games and Game.

730
00:32:31,759 --> 00:32:35,519
Speaker 2: Of Throne and I'm too heavy just say these things.

731
00:32:35,279 --> 00:32:37,359
Speaker 5: To me, like just about the books that he's reading.

732
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:40,160
And I was just like somebody Leo said, he goes,

733
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:42,279
this guy's pretty lucky. He's got this is in the book.

734
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:44,359
He goes, he's got like his own private like reading

735
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:49,119
group with a pole. Yeah that's true. Yeah, So I

736
00:32:49,119 --> 00:32:51,319
don't make any like apologies. I feel like When I

737
00:32:51,359 --> 00:32:53,279
first started looking into this, I had a lot of questions.

738
00:32:53,359 --> 00:32:56,559
I wasn't sure. After seven years, I'm absolutely convinced of

739
00:32:56,559 --> 00:32:59,000
what's happened, and I know it's there's no other way

740
00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:00,559
to look at Every time I find something new, it

741
00:33:00,559 --> 00:33:02,799
points to Jeremy. It doesn't point to Leo. Yeah, and

742
00:33:02,839 --> 00:33:04,759
so I don't make any bones about it, like I'm

743
00:33:04,799 --> 00:33:06,559
trying to help. I'm trying to get justice for this.

744
00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:09,920
I'm not just like someone who's a storyteller a journalist.

745
00:33:10,079 --> 00:33:13,079
I've become involved in the story the same way I

746
00:33:13,079 --> 00:33:15,000
did with the Groveland Four when I wrote that book.

747
00:33:15,079 --> 00:33:16,960
Next thing I know, they had me testifying in front

748
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:19,440
of the Parole Commission and testifying it. And I don't

749
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:21,799
mind because I feel like this is the truth and

750
00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:24,759
I'm willing to put my reputation behind it in these cases.

751
00:33:24,839 --> 00:33:27,599
Speaker 2: I wanted to ask you a question if I could sure.

752
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:31,799
Was the plan always to do a podcast which has

753
00:33:31,839 --> 00:33:34,759
now turned into a podcast series and then a book,

754
00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:38,599
because that wasn't how you wrote your other books, No,

755
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:40,759
not at all. So was this part of a master

756
00:33:40,839 --> 00:33:43,240
plan or just the way it worked out?

757
00:33:43,519 --> 00:33:45,160
Speaker 5: It was just really the way it worked out. I

758
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:47,000
think The reason is, like I'm used to dealing with

759
00:33:47,079 --> 00:33:50,160
documents and dead people. I don't really have witnesses that

760
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:52,480
I could talk to in my stories. Everyone's gone, so

761
00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:54,640
I'm reading documents. So this is interesting to me because

762
00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:56,599
now I'm meeting people and they're all really young in

763
00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:59,279
the nineteen eighties, they're all teenagers and so they're all around.

764
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:02,119
In fact, I'm older than these guys. It feels really weird.

765
00:34:02,319 --> 00:34:03,960
But they were all willing to talk to me. And

766
00:34:04,039 --> 00:34:06,680
so after we talked to Leo, we were only supposed

767
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:09,079
to get an hour going to the media rules. They

768
00:34:09,079 --> 00:34:10,599
gave us like three and a half because they all

769
00:34:10,639 --> 00:34:12,599
love Leo and they're like, how long you need, and

770
00:34:12,679 --> 00:34:15,159
so we've talked to him for three over three hours.

771
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:18,199
He was telling stories about the worst moments in his life,

772
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:20,880
the search for Michelle and how he couldn't sleep and

773
00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:22,920
how he's going out there and then ultimately when the

774
00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:25,559
body was found, like just very human moments that he

775
00:34:25,679 --> 00:34:27,079
was He was like, well, if she's not dead, you

776
00:34:27,119 --> 00:34:28,719
found on the water, get her out. When they're trying

777
00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:30,599
to tell her, like, look, she's dead, but he didn't

778
00:34:30,639 --> 00:34:34,239
know that. He doesn't is mortifying and just have him

779
00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:37,159
recount those stories and then like we'd say goodbye to

780
00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:39,039
him and he would go into a cell and think

781
00:34:39,039 --> 00:34:41,000
about the stuff that he doesn't talk about at all,

782
00:34:41,079 --> 00:34:43,559
and I just felt like, this guy must be traumatized

783
00:34:43,599 --> 00:34:46,199
by this. He knew it was important to tell the

784
00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:48,480
story and he was willing to do it, and he said, Gilbert,

785
00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:50,239
it's not easy. I really some of the stuff I

786
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:52,679
haven't ever talked about before, but I'll do it because

787
00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:54,719
I know you're committed to this. And so I think

788
00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:56,480
coming out of that, I was like, God, his voice

789
00:34:56,559 --> 00:34:59,239
and the way he speaks is so powerful. Yeah, I

790
00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:01,400
don't know if I could do justice like I think

791
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:03,840
people need to hear that. And then the transition, Like

792
00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:05,679
once I started doing all that, I was like, Wow,

793
00:35:05,679 --> 00:35:07,599
there's so much I'm leaving out of the podcast because

794
00:35:07,599 --> 00:35:10,719
we don't have audio and can't cover the trial. I

795
00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:13,360
can create those trial scenes and put the backstories and

796
00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:15,719
the context in it. And that's when I really started

797
00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:18,519
thinking about a book. It was after the podcast came out.

798
00:35:18,519 --> 00:35:20,599
I just said I didn't really I got into it,

799
00:35:20,599 --> 00:35:22,119
but I didn't really cover a lot of it. There's

800
00:35:22,119 --> 00:35:24,400
a lot more there, and I really wanted to just

801
00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:26,400
go into that and go back to my writing, which

802
00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:28,079
is and I never would have done that, but I

803
00:35:28,079 --> 00:35:29,800
felt like there was still so much more to tell.

804
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:33,119
Speaker 4: And you'd mentioned when you were talking to Maggie Freeley

805
00:35:33,159 --> 00:35:34,880
and that you wanted to be able to do parallel

806
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:37,440
narratives where you would start with Leo and then move

807
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:39,559
to Jeremy and Leo and Jeremy, and you did that

808
00:35:39,639 --> 00:35:42,559
with the book, and it works really beautifully. So I

809
00:35:42,559 --> 00:35:46,400
can definitely see how doing it as a podcast. But

810
00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:49,440
then here's the book that accompanies it. I think they

811
00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:52,400
both compliment each other really well. You have told Leo

812
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:56,000
and Jeremy stories, but you also had two bonus episodes

813
00:35:56,039 --> 00:35:59,679
where you talked about leo cellmate and best friend, Kevin Herrick,

814
00:36:00,199 --> 00:36:02,920
who it also looks is in prison for a crime

815
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:04,920
he didn't commit. And that's going to be a little

816
00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:07,159
weird too, to meet two people in prison who were

817
00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:10,039
wrongfully convicted. Is there an update on Kevin?

818
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:11,519
Speaker 2: I really want there to.

819
00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:15,480
Speaker 5: Be an update on Kevin. That investigation is continuing. Interestingly enough,

820
00:36:15,559 --> 00:36:17,880
when Leo first told us about his roommate, he said

821
00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:21,199
he's also innocent. My actually, like, how is everybody in it?

822
00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:23,119
I just I trusted Leo. But if you're telling me

823
00:36:23,119 --> 00:36:25,760
your cell MAT's also innocent for twenty five years and

824
00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:28,159
they're they're playing a rock band together. And I honestly,

825
00:36:28,159 --> 00:36:31,000
whenever Leo tells me something, some of it's hard to

826
00:36:31,039 --> 00:36:33,320
believe at times, but it always comes back to being

827
00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:36,519
like honest. He's being honest with this. At one point

828
00:36:36,599 --> 00:36:39,400
he said, Gilbert, I know Kevin is as innocent as

829
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:42,400
I am. He's an innocent man. And so I was

830
00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:44,840
tied up with some other projects and trying to work

831
00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:46,559
these things out, and I gave it to some a

832
00:36:46,559 --> 00:36:48,519
couple of lawyers, and I said, can you just look

833
00:36:48,519 --> 00:36:50,079
at this case and look at the and just do

834
00:36:50,159 --> 00:36:51,719
me a favor and look at this and just tell me,

835
00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:53,480
And they both got back to me. He said, this

836
00:36:53,519 --> 00:36:54,599
guy's definitely innocent.

837
00:36:55,119 --> 00:36:58,360
Speaker 2: Wow. Yeah, so Leo was right.

838
00:36:58,639 --> 00:37:00,920
Speaker 5: He was right. And then Judge Cup, who's like the

839
00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:03,559
most skeptical person in the world. He's retired now, but

840
00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:05,320
I said, Judge Cup, got to look at this for

841
00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:07,119
me because I think this guy might be innocent. And

842
00:37:07,159 --> 00:37:09,960
he says the same reaction, Oh geez, here we go, right,

843
00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:14,079
And then he comes back he goes this guy didn't

844
00:37:14,119 --> 00:37:17,800
do it, and I'm like, oh no. So we started

845
00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:20,360
looking into it and yeah, this guy's definitely innocent. He

846
00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:21,119
got railroaded.

847
00:37:21,519 --> 00:37:22,039
Speaker 2: Wow.

848
00:37:22,519 --> 00:37:25,440
Speaker 5: And it's not that they've accidentally in the same cell together.

849
00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:28,320
The way they came up, they both got paralegal degrees

850
00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:30,320
and they became jailhouse lawyers and they were helping other

851
00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:33,840
lawyers with their appeals and motions, and they meant that way,

852
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:36,280
and they started talking. And people aren't don't freely admit

853
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:39,000
that they're innocent. It's an awkward thing. Leo told me, like,

854
00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:41,239
because I thought the myth was like, oh, everybody says

855
00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:43,679
they're innocent. He said, Gilbert, I can count on one hand,

856
00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:46,320
over four decades in prison, the people who told me

857
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:49,039
they were actually factually innocent. He goes, It's not a

858
00:37:49,079 --> 00:37:51,280
common thing. A lot of people will say I didn't

859
00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:54,760
do what the state did. This guy was claiming total innocence,

860
00:37:55,039 --> 00:37:57,599
just like Leo. And so we looked into it and

861
00:37:57,800 --> 00:37:59,800
there's no doubt that this guy's innocent. I have no

862
00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:01,920
doubt out on this one either, and so we just

863
00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:05,760
started to explore it. There's still investigation that's coming, it'll

864
00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:08,639
be out like once we really put it together. We're

865
00:38:08,679 --> 00:38:11,519
working with the making an ex honor reprogram at Georgetown.

866
00:38:12,199 --> 00:38:15,159
Their students are doing the investigation, which is great, and

867
00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:17,320
they found stuff. Some of the people that are guiding

868
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:20,320
that investigation have found some Brady material that was never

869
00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:22,760
turned over. And oh, that makes sense because when you

870
00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:25,760
figure out somebody's innocent and you you start to believe it,

871
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:27,840
you start to see things like that, Oh, they never

872
00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:30,119
turned this over to the defense. In this case, it

873
00:38:30,199 --> 00:38:32,199
happened to be a license plate that one of the

874
00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:35,719
victims was screaming out and it just disappeared from the evidence,

875
00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:38,079
except they found a report that was in the state

876
00:38:38,119 --> 00:38:40,960
attorney's files and it had a report on that license plate.

877
00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:43,639
Speaker 2: And that was never turned over to the defense, never.

878
00:38:43,519 --> 00:38:47,119
Speaker 5: Turned over, and when the investigators, the students looked into it,

879
00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:48,840
they found that it was a man who lived about

880
00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:51,599
a mile away who'd been convicted for sexual assault, which

881
00:38:51,639 --> 00:38:54,639
is what Kevin's case was about. And the defense never

882
00:38:54,639 --> 00:38:57,239
got to explore this because they never got these records.

883
00:38:57,320 --> 00:38:59,760
And he had an airtight alibi, and that's another thing.

884
00:39:00,079 --> 00:39:03,239
Airtight alabust got destroyed in court for some reason. It

885
00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:06,480
makes you wonder what was how was that dynamic in

886
00:39:06,519 --> 00:39:08,320
there that this woman who said I was in the

887
00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:10,400
house the whole time he was sleeping, that he would

888
00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:11,840
have had to walk by me because I was up

889
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:14,159
the whole time. He never left, he was sleeping when

890
00:39:14,159 --> 00:39:16,280
I woke him up. And yet they ended up convicting

891
00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:19,159
him and he's got life in prison without parole. He's

892
00:39:19,159 --> 00:39:21,079
been in prison just as long more than Leo now

893
00:39:21,199 --> 00:39:24,519
thirty seven years. It's really emotional for Leo because there's

894
00:39:24,559 --> 00:39:26,519
times where Leo's told us like he didn't want to

895
00:39:26,519 --> 00:39:28,800
get out of prison and leave Kevin behind. It was

896
00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:31,440
a really difficult struggle for him, and they had this pact,

897
00:39:31,679 --> 00:39:34,239
whoever gets out first comes back and help the other guy,

898
00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:36,639
and that's what the story's about. To be honest with you,

899
00:39:36,679 --> 00:39:39,679
I think Kevin has a better legal possibility of getting

900
00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:42,400
his honor head than Leo does because there's some new

901
00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:43,440
evidence that was found.

902
00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:48,119
Speaker 2: How is working on Bone Valley and Leo's case changed you,

903
00:39:48,639 --> 00:39:53,039
and we should ask how has it changed your podcast partner, Kelsey,

904
00:39:53,159 --> 00:39:55,280
who worked with you on Bone Valley.

905
00:39:56,079 --> 00:39:58,400
Speaker 5: There's been a lot of changes that in this story,

906
00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:00,000
and I think a lot of them are really person

907
00:40:00,079 --> 00:40:02,760
and all I don't think I ever saw myself corresponding

908
00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:06,119
with and talking to someone who's a mass murderer. Basically,

909
00:40:06,599 --> 00:40:09,760
he's killed four people, in my opinion, and he's confessed

910
00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:11,639
to four of them, and he's forensically tied to three

911
00:40:11,639 --> 00:40:14,280
of them. It seems pretty obvious. And he'll talk about

912
00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:16,880
them with me. He'll answer just about all the questions

913
00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:19,599
I ask him. It's also triggering for him. I wouldn't

914
00:40:19,599 --> 00:40:22,360
say Jeremy and I have become friends over this entire

915
00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:25,639
story where it's just really difficult to describe the relationship.

916
00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:27,519
There were times where I was the only person he

917
00:40:27,559 --> 00:40:29,559
knew and the only person who talked to him, and

918
00:40:29,599 --> 00:40:32,039
he would write me these really long letters and just

919
00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:33,920
at one point I just said, look, I know you

920
00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:36,320
can't get to a phone, but I just need to

921
00:40:36,559 --> 00:40:38,559
know your story. You have to write this down. He

922
00:40:38,599 --> 00:40:41,280
wrote a six page letter, he drew a map of

923
00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:44,639
everything matches the police evidence. There's no doubt he was there.

924
00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:46,960
And ultimately I ended up talking to the lead detective

925
00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:49,119
on that case who admitted that Jeremy should have been

926
00:40:49,159 --> 00:40:52,039
a subject. And I call it the Bone Valley universe.

927
00:40:52,079 --> 00:40:54,440
But it spreads out and like now, it's like we're

928
00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:57,360
going into Jeremy's side, now we're going into Leo Selmy,

929
00:40:57,400 --> 00:41:00,519
who's also innocent, and it's just spread out into these

930
00:41:00,519 --> 00:41:04,480
different directions. I've met like detectives, cold case detectives and say,

931
00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:06,679
I got a case for you. Nobody's written about this one.

932
00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:09,000
I was involved in this, and I get all these

933
00:41:09,039 --> 00:41:11,199
stories come to me, so I feel like I'm completely

934
00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:13,639
involved in it. As far as Kelsey goes, it was

935
00:41:13,679 --> 00:41:15,920
the same thing with her. This was the first case

936
00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:18,000
that she really worked on. It was like our first

937
00:41:18,039 --> 00:41:21,320
job out of college. She's just so talented and so dogged.

938
00:41:21,679 --> 00:41:24,360
She could remember all the facts of the cases. And

939
00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:26,840
there's times where it's a lot, yeah, a couple thousand

940
00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:29,960
pages of transcripts, all these reports and appeals and motions,

941
00:41:30,039 --> 00:41:31,920
and I could always count on her to say that

942
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:33,920
happened three weeks after that, that was that's wrong.

943
00:41:34,039 --> 00:41:37,199
Speaker 2: He's got that young, sharp, uncluttered mind.

944
00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:41,239
Speaker 5: Yes, And you see her like she has this scene

945
00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:45,480
where she actually confronts the retired state attorney who's he's

946
00:41:45,519 --> 00:41:48,440
been in office for thirty two years, and she starts

947
00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:50,920
correcting him and asking him questions. And it started out

948
00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:52,880
as a friendly interview, and the next thing, this young

949
00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:56,159
woman is just grilling him and he's just doing like

950
00:41:56,199 --> 00:41:59,159
that whole like little lady thing, like the why don't

951
00:41:59,159 --> 00:42:00,599
you take him home and live with you if you

952
00:42:00,599 --> 00:42:04,679
think he's not guilty? That kind of stuff. And I

953
00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:06,320
write about that in the book because I was like,

954
00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:08,199
I've been on the other side of that, like being

955
00:42:08,199 --> 00:42:11,639
corrected by her, and I know she's right because at

956
00:42:11,679 --> 00:42:13,400
one point the state attorney goes, did you read the

957
00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:15,480
trans and she goes, I read it all, and I

958
00:42:15,559 --> 00:42:20,679
just y, she did read it all, and don't try

959
00:42:20,719 --> 00:42:23,800
to slip something by me. It's a really powerful interview.

960
00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:25,800
I think it was the first one she really did

961
00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:27,519
like that at it, but she just took a deep

962
00:42:27,559 --> 00:42:29,280
breath and held her ground and really one of the

963
00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:30,880
great moments in the book too. I really like that.

964
00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:34,280
Speaker 4: The book is Bone Valley, a true story of injustice

965
00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:36,880
and redemption in the heart of Florida. The podcast is

966
00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:40,800
also Bone Valley. Where can everybody find the book and

967
00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:41,480
the podcast?

968
00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:45,000
Speaker 5: Now you can just it's stuck coming out until October eighth,

969
00:42:45,159 --> 00:42:48,480
but if you go on anywhere Amazon or any local bookstore,

970
00:42:48,639 --> 00:42:51,880
independent bookstores, it'll be everywhere. I'm going out on a

971
00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:54,599
tour and taking Leo with me too for a lot

972
00:42:54,599 --> 00:42:58,199
of the place. Oh yeahs, I'll just tell you he's

973
00:42:58,199 --> 00:43:00,519
the star of this. I can recount the story and

974
00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:03,239
put things in perspective, but then we'll have these conversations

975
00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:06,639
and let the audiences ask questions. And he's Leo that

976
00:43:06,679 --> 00:43:09,840
he's this graceful person who doesn't hold on to anger

977
00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:13,079
and tries to be very rational and yeah, very forgiving.

978
00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:15,639
He's just a remarkable person. And I think a lot

979
00:43:15,639 --> 00:43:17,920
of that just sounds hard and sad to say, but

980
00:43:18,119 --> 00:43:19,920
prison made him the man he is. I don't know

981
00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:22,000
if he'd be the same man if he wasn't convicted

982
00:43:22,039 --> 00:43:25,199
of this. I think he's an extraordinarily special person, and

983
00:43:25,239 --> 00:43:27,719
he will say things to me like, aside from losing

984
00:43:27,719 --> 00:43:30,119
my wife and getting convicting for that, I wouldn't trade anything,

985
00:43:30,159 --> 00:43:31,760
because I don't think I would ever meet the people

986
00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:33,960
I met a judge who's willing to quit his job

987
00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:36,519
to come back to be his defense attorney. I wouldn't

988
00:43:36,519 --> 00:43:39,920
have ever met you. And we're a big family now

989
00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:42,679
and we all believe in this justice from Michelle. And

990
00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:45,480
it's when he says that I'm like, yeah, I guess

991
00:43:45,519 --> 00:43:47,039
I'm on that team with you. I just could I

992
00:43:47,119 --> 00:43:50,159
not be. And it's just this remarkable bond that's from

993
00:43:50,199 --> 00:43:54,719
all sides, even Jeremy's family, Michelle's family is very lovely

994
00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:56,320
for the most part. I don't think so two of

995
00:43:56,320 --> 00:43:58,719
the brothers agree on it on Leo's innocent, but the

996
00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:00,760
one who does, who's in Lakeland, is he wrote a

997
00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:04,800
letter of support for Leo's parole and he believes it

998
00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:07,320
and he looked into it himself, and he's asked me

999
00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:10,000
some questions along the way and satisfied with them. I

1000
00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:12,440
wouldn't trade this either. It's been seven more than seven

1001
00:44:12,519 --> 00:44:15,079
years of my life. Never would I have expected that

1002
00:44:15,079 --> 00:44:17,880
I'd be involved to this extent, but it's been a

1003
00:44:17,920 --> 00:44:21,679
life changing experience and it's brought me closer to the

1004
00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:24,920
how injustice can affect and ripple out in so many

1005
00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:27,840
different directions, and really just a human story.

1006
00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:30,159
Speaker 2: As you said earlier, Kristin, we're going to do our

1007
00:44:30,199 --> 00:44:32,239
best to get it out and see you and Leo

1008
00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:34,840
when you're on your book tour, because this sounds like

1009
00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:36,840
a fascinating conversation.

1010
00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:39,400
Speaker 5: Yeah, it is, and he surprises me. We did the

1011
00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:42,320
audiobook together. At the very end, as a bonus, Leo

1012
00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:46,800
interviews me. He interviews me and yeah, all I remember

1013
00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:48,519
is like people in New York were watching it, were

1014
00:44:48,519 --> 00:44:50,880
all crying. And he does that to you. We both

1015
00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:54,239
experienced it. Just some really personal questions that he asked

1016
00:44:54,239 --> 00:44:56,039
and I had to remind him. Like at one point

1017
00:44:56,039 --> 00:44:57,800
he said to me when I was working on this,

1018
00:44:58,079 --> 00:45:00,480
he said, Gilbert, if I had just gone left when

1019
00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:03,000
I went right, maybe I would have found her. And

1020
00:45:03,079 --> 00:45:05,079
I said, Leo, I hate to tell you this, but

1021
00:45:05,159 --> 00:45:07,599
Michelle was dead already, and he goes, I know it.

1022
00:45:07,639 --> 00:45:09,559
I just don't acknowledge it. But I know that those

1023
00:45:09,599 --> 00:45:12,239
turns wouldn't have made any difference. She was already gone.

1024
00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:13,880
But that was just like one of those kind of

1025
00:45:14,079 --> 00:45:17,239
conversations that I'll never forget with Leo and just say,

1026
00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:19,039
you couldn't have done anything, but it was too late,

1027
00:45:19,559 --> 00:45:20,239
really horrible.

1028
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:24,639
Speaker 4: The book is fantastic, the podcast is fantastic, and we

1029
00:45:24,719 --> 00:45:27,400
can't thank you enough for spending time with us today.

1030
00:45:27,519 --> 00:45:30,199
Speaker 5: This has been wonderful. It was such a pleasure talking

1031
00:45:30,239 --> 00:45:32,079
to you. You guys are great to you, and I'm

1032
00:45:32,079 --> 00:45:33,840
now fans of your podcast. I'm going to go back

1033
00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:35,960
and listen because this is the kind of thing you

1034
00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:36,599
guys are doing.

1035
00:45:37,039 --> 00:45:39,639
Speaker 4: Thank you so much that is going to do it

1036
00:45:39,679 --> 00:45:42,199
for this episode of mind Ever Murder. Thank you so

1037
00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:44,679
much for listening. We'll see you next time.

1038
00:45:53,679 --> 00:45:57,239
Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and

1039
00:45:57,280 --> 00:45:58,719
Another Dog Productions.

1040
00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:02,599
Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley.

1041
00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:05,400
Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois.

1042
00:46:06,039 --> 00:46:08,079
Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud.

1043
00:46:08,639 --> 00:46:12,679
Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with Coral Space Media.

1044
00:46:13,320 --> 00:46:16,480
Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram.

1045
00:46:16,679 --> 00:46:19,280
Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway

1046
00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:21,159
Murders on Facebook.

1047
00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:23,960
Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at

1048
00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:25,599
Bill Thomas five six.

1049
00:46:26,079 --> 00:46:29,199
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.