WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.120 --> 00:00:04.160 You're listening to the Mind over Murder podcast. 2 00:00:06.000 --> 00:00:09.679 My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer, 3 00:00:09.720 --> 00:00:12.839 and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my 4 00:00:12.919 --> 00:00:15.800 experience as the brother of a murder victim to help 5 00:00:15.880 --> 00:00:18.640 other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book 6 00:00:18.679 --> 00:00:21.440 on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders and I'm the co 7 00:00:21.519 --> 00:00:24.760 administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 8 00:00:24.839 --> 00:00:25.519 Kristin Dilly. 9 00:00:26.079 --> 00:00:29.120 My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher, 10 00:00:29.320 --> 00:00:32.079 a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the 11 00:00:32.119 --> 00:00:35.840 social media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway 12 00:00:35.880 --> 00:00:39.079 Murders Facebook page with my partner in crime, Bill Thomas. 13 00:00:42.240 --> 00:00:43.640 Welcome to Mind of a Murder. 14 00:00:43.679 --> 00:00:45.759 I'm Kristin Dilly and I'm Bill Thomas. 15 00:00:46.280 --> 00:00:49.479 Well, we're joined today by Connor McCarthy and Patrick Rogers 16 00:00:49.600 --> 00:00:52.079 here to talk to us about the brand news free 17 00:00:52.079 --> 00:00:56.000 part documentary series The Scream Murder, a true teen horror 18 00:00:56.079 --> 00:00:59.560 story now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney Plus. 19 00:01:00.159 --> 00:01:03.439 Thanks for taking the time today, Thanks for thanks for 20 00:01:03.439 --> 00:01:06.519 having us as a dedicated fan of the Scream series 21 00:01:06.560 --> 00:01:09.040 of horror movies. There's no way I could resist that title. 22 00:01:09.480 --> 00:01:12.040 Were you guys hoping to pull in sands of the 23 00:01:12.079 --> 00:01:14.359 movie specifically, or was that just the best title for 24 00:01:14.439 --> 00:01:14.920 this case. 25 00:01:15.719 --> 00:01:17.879 It's a part of the story, and it's a big 26 00:01:17.920 --> 00:01:18.879 part of the story. 27 00:01:19.040 --> 00:01:22.840 How much was it influence so influential. 28 00:01:22.280 --> 00:01:25.079 To the crime itself is up for debate, and I 29 00:01:25.079 --> 00:01:28.519 think we're still talking about that twenty years later. Teenageerators 30 00:01:28.560 --> 00:01:30.719 commit a crime horror philm obsess. 31 00:01:31.200 --> 00:01:32.480 We can't ignore that. 32 00:01:32.599 --> 00:01:35.640 So clearly that was probably the most wrapped way in 33 00:01:35.760 --> 00:01:37.680 we want people to watch. Obviously tune in, but this 34 00:01:37.719 --> 00:01:40.400 is obviously is a much more complicated case than a 35 00:01:40.439 --> 00:01:43.799 copycat kill, which is far from the truth when it 36 00:01:43.840 --> 00:01:45.480 came to this with this crime. 37 00:01:46.040 --> 00:01:48.719 And if you watch on the tape that the boys made, 38 00:01:49.280 --> 00:01:53.799 they referenced the movie Scream, of course, and there if 39 00:01:53.840 --> 00:01:57.840 you see the clip where Brian's playing drums, the movie 40 00:01:57.920 --> 00:02:01.319 Scream is on the screen. He's playing drums. So, like 41 00:02:01.400 --> 00:02:04.400 Connor says, is there a lot more to this? Yes, 42 00:02:04.480 --> 00:02:06.879 there is is Scream a part of it. Oh, yes 43 00:02:06.959 --> 00:02:09.199 it is. There is a big part of it here. 44 00:02:10.080 --> 00:02:13.560 So walk us through just the basics of the case. 45 00:02:13.599 --> 00:02:15.879 For folks that might not be familiar with it or 46 00:02:15.960 --> 00:02:18.520 haven't seen a new documentary yet. 47 00:02:19.960 --> 00:02:24.039 Okay, So in two thousand and six, September twenty seconds, 48 00:02:25.039 --> 00:02:29.280 two homeowners from Pocatello, Idaho return home from a three 49 00:02:29.319 --> 00:02:34.719 day vacation and they find on the floor stabbed to 50 00:02:34.759 --> 00:02:38.039 death Cassie Joe Stoddard, who was house sitting for them 51 00:02:38.080 --> 00:02:41.879 when they went on this vacation. And that's how everything starts. 52 00:02:42.360 --> 00:02:45.800 So the day call nine one one and an investigation begins. 53 00:02:46.400 --> 00:02:51.000 Cassie is a sixteen year old high school student. She 54 00:02:51.240 --> 00:02:54.360 was just their house sitting. There was nothing else happening 55 00:02:54.400 --> 00:03:00.000 at the house. Upon investigation, they realized. The investigators discovered 56 00:03:00.240 --> 00:03:04.560 that Cassie's boyfriend, Matt, had come over to keep her company, 57 00:03:04.639 --> 00:03:08.199 essentially while she was house sitting. So they went to 58 00:03:08.280 --> 00:03:12.280 question Matt about this, and he says while he was 59 00:03:12.360 --> 00:03:16.919 there and at the house, some strange things had happened. 60 00:03:17.199 --> 00:03:19.560 The lights had gone off and on, they heard some 61 00:03:19.719 --> 00:03:22.840 glass breaking. The lights stayed off for a little while, 62 00:03:22.879 --> 00:03:26.039 then they came back on. They heard something in the basement. 63 00:03:26.080 --> 00:03:29.159 They were afraid to go down there, so Matt was 64 00:03:29.199 --> 00:03:31.159 not allowed to sleep over, so his mom comes and 65 00:03:31.199 --> 00:03:35.639 gets him. He leaves. Cassie's fine when he leaves, but 66 00:03:35.680 --> 00:03:38.840 he also tells police that there were two other visitors 67 00:03:38.879 --> 00:03:42.599 that night, two of their classmates, Brian Draper and Tory Adamchek, 68 00:03:42.879 --> 00:03:45.879 also Bull sixteen. They had come over because they had 69 00:03:45.919 --> 00:03:47.960 heard Cassie was going to be house sitting. Maybe there'd 70 00:03:47.960 --> 00:03:52.199 be a little party. There wasn't, so Matt tells the 71 00:03:52.240 --> 00:03:55.520 investigators about these two other kids. They go to question them. 72 00:03:56.120 --> 00:03:58.319 They admit that they were there, Brian and Torrey Bull. 73 00:03:58.439 --> 00:04:01.080 They were there, and they said that they had left 74 00:04:01.319 --> 00:04:04.439 and they'd gone to the movies. Now this is where 75 00:04:04.520 --> 00:04:07.560 another place where the movies play come into play. They 76 00:04:07.599 --> 00:04:10.120 were both horror movie fans. They were out of horror 77 00:04:10.159 --> 00:04:13.400 movie and when the police say what was the movie about, 78 00:04:14.240 --> 00:04:16.680 neither of them can remember what it was about. So 79 00:04:16.800 --> 00:04:21.079 police immediately start to unravel their story. Their alibi falls apart. 80 00:04:21.160 --> 00:04:26.279 They tell another lie, also disproven. Eventually, Brian Draper comes 81 00:04:26.279 --> 00:04:29.639 in and confesses that he and Tory actually left the house, 82 00:04:30.160 --> 00:04:34.319 came back later and murdered Cassie. He also directs police 83 00:04:34.439 --> 00:04:38.680 to a spot outside Pocatello where they've buried the evidence 84 00:04:39.199 --> 00:04:45.000 knives clothes, masks, and a tape, and once they put 85 00:04:45.000 --> 00:04:48.000 this tape in the case takes a gigantic turn when 86 00:04:48.040 --> 00:04:48.920 they see what's on it. 87 00:04:50.560 --> 00:04:55.480 That tape was chilling, Yes, it was. It was chilling. 88 00:04:57.279 --> 00:05:01.639 You guys are steeped in true crime. You've done countless 89 00:05:01.639 --> 00:05:04.439 hours and so of Connor and I and we've never 90 00:05:04.519 --> 00:05:06.079 ever seen anything like that. 91 00:05:06.600 --> 00:05:08.720 It's interesting. It did remind me a lot of the 92 00:05:08.759 --> 00:05:14.839 basement tapes from the two Columbine killers, Dylan Claybald and 93 00:05:15.000 --> 00:05:19.279 Eric Harris, which obviously there are some similarities that the 94 00:05:19.319 --> 00:05:21.959 two killers in this case wanted to draw between themselves 95 00:05:22.000 --> 00:05:24.360 and Eric and Dylan. So I'm wondering if maybe that's 96 00:05:24.399 --> 00:05:27.800 why they went to the links of making that tape. 97 00:05:27.800 --> 00:05:30.560 But that tape was I was actually a little we 98 00:05:30.560 --> 00:05:31.800 were watching it. I was like, are they going to 99 00:05:31.839 --> 00:05:35.279 share the tape? I want to see it? And then yeah, 100 00:05:35.319 --> 00:05:36.800 but boy, I actually wish I hadn't. 101 00:05:37.199 --> 00:05:41.639 Very very hard to watch. It's hard to believe your eyes. Actually, 102 00:05:41.680 --> 00:05:43.360 it's hard to believe what you're seeing. 103 00:05:45.839 --> 00:05:48.680 So how did you guys even hear about this case? 104 00:05:48.839 --> 00:05:52.680 Because I went through the mental rolodex and I realized 105 00:05:52.800 --> 00:05:55.120 I don't remember this case, and it seems like one 106 00:05:55.160 --> 00:05:57.639 I would have heard about. So where did it come 107 00:05:57.680 --> 00:05:58.319 on your radar? 108 00:06:01.120 --> 00:06:03.600 Like I said earlier, it happened in September twenty second 109 00:06:03.600 --> 00:06:06.040 in two thousand and six, and I found out about 110 00:06:06.079 --> 00:06:10.720 it almost like right away. I was working in true crime, 111 00:06:11.000 --> 00:06:14.120 and I think I heard about it by Halloween because 112 00:06:14.160 --> 00:06:18.800 they got around there. They got arrested pretty fast. I 113 00:06:18.839 --> 00:06:22.279 did a lot of research back then, and in two 114 00:06:22.360 --> 00:06:25.399 thousand and nine I did an hour long documentary for 115 00:06:25.560 --> 00:06:29.279 MSNBC on this same case. So I've known about it 116 00:06:30.600 --> 00:06:32.959 since basically the day it happened. It just came on 117 00:06:33.000 --> 00:06:36.000 my radar. It may sound odd to listeners, but I'm 118 00:06:36.040 --> 00:06:39.879 just and so is Connor. We're constantly looking for something 119 00:06:40.319 --> 00:06:43.519 and you can get taken far Afield and Pocatello, Idaho. 120 00:06:43.560 --> 00:06:46.639 It's nowhere near where I was living, but it came 121 00:06:46.680 --> 00:06:49.680 on the radar and I immediately jumped on it for 122 00:06:49.759 --> 00:06:54.279 that MSNBC show. Yeah, and for me, it was over 123 00:06:54.319 --> 00:06:58.120 a year ago October twenty twenty four when Pat and 124 00:06:58.120 --> 00:07:01.680 I started talking about the case, it had almost been 125 00:07:01.720 --> 00:07:05.360 twenty years, reaching the twenty year anniversary to like I 126 00:07:05.399 --> 00:07:09.399 were an anniversary. It's September, and I the approach that 127 00:07:09.439 --> 00:07:12.360 I went in terms of reaching out was obviously to 128 00:07:12.879 --> 00:07:17.160 Cassie's family, but also so Brian and Tory's parents. I 129 00:07:17.240 --> 00:07:20.279 felt that was a perspective that we don't hear from 130 00:07:20.560 --> 00:07:21.360 very office. 131 00:07:21.759 --> 00:07:25.120 And there are three families involved. Prefamilies were ruined in 132 00:07:25.279 --> 00:07:29.680 very different ways. The levels of catastrophe and what happens, 133 00:07:29.759 --> 00:07:34.600 particularly for siblings of Brian and Tory. The parents, people 134 00:07:34.639 --> 00:07:37.399 can lay blame on however they want. They didn't do enough, 135 00:07:37.439 --> 00:07:40.040 they did too much, but the siblings are people that 136 00:07:40.079 --> 00:07:42.800 are just they go down unfortunately, and some of them 137 00:07:42.839 --> 00:07:45.360 were in the same school that Brian and Tory were 138 00:07:45.399 --> 00:07:50.879 attending that echo, and I think it just it's illustrated 139 00:07:50.920 --> 00:07:53.839 through our high school students. We bring on, the teachers, 140 00:07:53.839 --> 00:07:57.120 that we bring on the magnitude of this case, particularly 141 00:07:57.160 --> 00:08:00.720 happening in the most formative point in these peoples lives 142 00:08:00.800 --> 00:08:03.199 that they're going to remember forever, and as you see 143 00:08:03.319 --> 00:08:05.800 particularly something of that, the high school students were still 144 00:08:05.839 --> 00:08:07.879 struggling to this day. I don't think they could even 145 00:08:08.000 --> 00:08:11.240 articulate the trauma that it really settled in, and for 146 00:08:11.240 --> 00:08:13.079 a lot of them it's the first time they've publicly 147 00:08:13.120 --> 00:08:15.959 spoken about that time in their life. High school was 148 00:08:16.000 --> 00:08:18.399 over for a lot of them once this thing, once 149 00:08:18.439 --> 00:08:19.279 this murder occurred. 150 00:08:19.920 --> 00:08:23.800 At the time you reached out to the families, had 151 00:08:23.839 --> 00:08:26.519 you too made the decision that you were definitely going 152 00:08:26.560 --> 00:08:28.519 to do a documentary or did you want to wait 153 00:08:28.600 --> 00:08:31.240 and see what kind of reaction you've got or if 154 00:08:31.279 --> 00:08:33.320 there was any interest or level of support. 155 00:08:35.240 --> 00:08:39.559 I think once Shannon said she'd be open to participating, 156 00:08:39.799 --> 00:08:41.240 and the thing that they wanted to talk about, we 157 00:08:41.279 --> 00:08:44.639 can talk about life without parole. Carry Draper came on board, 158 00:08:44.759 --> 00:08:48.840 and well, when one says yes, then the next one 159 00:08:48.919 --> 00:08:51.000 comes on and the next and we just started like 160 00:08:51.080 --> 00:08:53.320 reaching out slowly to everybody, they knowing this was a 161 00:08:53.360 --> 00:08:55.159 really difficult topic for a lot of people and not 162 00:08:55.200 --> 00:08:56.519 a phone call that they're going to want to get 163 00:08:56.600 --> 00:08:58.320 and be brought back to that time. 164 00:08:58.639 --> 00:09:00.960 But then as we were moving forward and bad I 165 00:09:01.080 --> 00:09:02.480 we didn't know where it was going to go. 166 00:09:03.240 --> 00:09:06.000 We knew it was something worth doing because we always 167 00:09:06.000 --> 00:09:08.879 ask ourselves, what is the purpose of this it is, Oh, 168 00:09:08.879 --> 00:09:12.559 it's this crazy crime, But we wanted something deeper than 169 00:09:12.879 --> 00:09:15.360 just retelling the story of a really terrible thing that 170 00:09:15.440 --> 00:09:17.840 committed in small town I'm America. We wanted something to 171 00:09:17.840 --> 00:09:19.840 have layers to it, and that's usually how we approach 172 00:09:19.879 --> 00:09:22.559 most of our projects. And the more people that we 173 00:09:22.639 --> 00:09:24.879 saw that were willing to come on, and really, I think, 174 00:09:25.159 --> 00:09:27.320 I think we have something that we can make and 175 00:09:27.720 --> 00:09:32.519 turn it into a sprawling, three part twenty year saga 176 00:09:32.639 --> 00:09:35.200 of the events of September two thousand and six. 177 00:09:36.480 --> 00:09:39.000 The fact that you were able to get the parents 178 00:09:39.039 --> 00:09:42.000 on was something that I was very interested in and 179 00:09:42.080 --> 00:09:45.919 very impressed by. And I feel terrible for those parents, 180 00:09:46.159 --> 00:09:48.639 And I was really struck by the fact that Pam 181 00:09:48.720 --> 00:09:52.120 Draper said in the very first episode that she still 182 00:09:52.159 --> 00:09:55.559 loves her son in spite of what he did. Did 183 00:09:55.600 --> 00:09:58.799 you find that sentiment to be true not only for 184 00:09:58.879 --> 00:10:02.200 both sets of parents, but maybe for friends of the boys. 185 00:10:02.960 --> 00:10:07.480 How did was there like a consensus of emotion across 186 00:10:07.519 --> 00:10:09.679 all the people who knew him or them? 187 00:10:09.720 --> 00:10:12.399 I'm sorry, I'm a parent of three, and so I 188 00:10:12.399 --> 00:10:16.279 can understand them. Think it's like just being able to 189 00:10:16.320 --> 00:10:19.279 turn your back on your child. But that is the 190 00:10:19.480 --> 00:10:23.360 greatest tennis of a parent, when your child commits the unforgiven. 191 00:10:24.279 --> 00:10:27.440 That was one thing that just in talking to him 192 00:10:27.440 --> 00:10:29.799 who tried to stay is neutral and be fair to 193 00:10:29.840 --> 00:10:32.360 them because they are stepping back out from the shadows, 194 00:10:32.519 --> 00:10:35.720 and they certainly were Pariah's back then and could be today. 195 00:10:35.759 --> 00:10:38.720 And it's a very controversial position I think they took. 196 00:10:38.799 --> 00:10:41.840 But their openness was extraordinary to say the least. And 197 00:10:41.879 --> 00:10:45.840 I know that this controversy that comes with that speaking 198 00:10:45.879 --> 00:10:48.759 to the Drapers in the Atom checks, but they certainly 199 00:10:48.799 --> 00:10:50.759 had enough conviction that they felt like it was worth 200 00:10:50.840 --> 00:10:54.000 coming back out, knowing that the hate mail may come, 201 00:10:54.120 --> 00:10:56.840 the emails, the text messages, and they just might find 202 00:10:56.879 --> 00:10:59.559 themselves right back where they were in two thousand and six. 203 00:10:59.639 --> 00:11:05.039 But the fact that they understand, I think the magnitude 204 00:11:05.080 --> 00:11:08.159 of what their sons did. At the same time, they 205 00:11:08.200 --> 00:11:11.080 still wanted to somehow have a relationship with them and 206 00:11:11.159 --> 00:11:14.399 be committed to them. But they definitely really conflicted, and 207 00:11:14.440 --> 00:11:18.159 I think Pam and more so Carrie, how they're still 208 00:11:18.919 --> 00:11:22.360 struggling with where they need to be in all of this. 209 00:11:22.600 --> 00:11:24.600 And I don't think they're ever going to fully know 210 00:11:24.720 --> 00:11:27.080 where they are in terms of being a parent and 211 00:11:27.120 --> 00:11:31.039 also being a parent and understanding losing a child to violence, 212 00:11:31.559 --> 00:11:34.559 how devastating that would be. Carrie said, if I lost 213 00:11:35.080 --> 00:11:36.720 one of my kids to that, I don't know what 214 00:11:36.759 --> 00:11:39.039 my position would be. It probably wouldn't be his position. 215 00:11:39.120 --> 00:11:41.759 It is right now with trying to look at let's 216 00:11:41.799 --> 00:11:42.919 have maybe a second chance. 217 00:11:43.039 --> 00:11:44.960 He's it's authority issue. 218 00:11:47.399 --> 00:11:51.200 And for the students, we found still a lot of 219 00:11:51.240 --> 00:11:56.200 shock and in some cases anger at what Brian and 220 00:11:56.240 --> 00:12:00.559 Tory did and what they took away. Not only Cassie, Yeah, 221 00:12:00.720 --> 00:12:03.519 was the thing they still are sore simple for, but 222 00:12:03.639 --> 00:12:06.480 in terms of the happiness and the homecoming and prom 223 00:12:06.519 --> 00:12:08.399 and football games and all those things that you're supposed 224 00:12:08.399 --> 00:12:10.080 to experience, for a lot of them, that all just 225 00:12:10.120 --> 00:12:12.159 went away and they just didn't experience that. It was 226 00:12:12.200 --> 00:12:14.360 just like some people left high school, they transferred and 227 00:12:14.399 --> 00:12:17.720 they couldn't stay there, and it's the ripple effect was wide. 228 00:12:18.360 --> 00:12:20.799 Yeah, We've talked about the ripple effect in the Colonial 229 00:12:20.879 --> 00:12:24.799 Parkway murders before, and actually, as you're laying out just 230 00:12:24.879 --> 00:12:30.080 the basics, one of the things I thought about was Pocatella, Idaho, 231 00:12:30.080 --> 00:12:35.480 where I've never been, is a relatively small place, and 232 00:12:36.879 --> 00:12:40.879 I actually was thinking about that ripple effect and wondering 233 00:12:41.559 --> 00:12:45.039 how many people just ended up leaving just to escape 234 00:12:45.159 --> 00:12:51.399 this horrific memory, which obviously continues to ripple to this day. 235 00:12:53.080 --> 00:12:56.960 The Adam Chucks and the Drapers left. They don't live 236 00:12:57.000 --> 00:13:00.720 there anymore, none of them. And they had other kids, 237 00:13:00.759 --> 00:13:05.600 I think Connor, they've all left. Yes, yeah, both sides. 238 00:13:05.759 --> 00:13:09.840 Both families left within a year to two years after 239 00:13:09.960 --> 00:13:13.600 everything happened, as well as some students. Some some families 240 00:13:13.639 --> 00:13:17.039 that they moved to Boise, five hours away for schools. 241 00:13:17.519 --> 00:13:19.360 They got out, So a lot of people just had 242 00:13:19.399 --> 00:13:22.240 to just walk away from the lens that they used 243 00:13:22.240 --> 00:13:24.480 to know. You know what was interesting is when we 244 00:13:24.559 --> 00:13:27.360 went there, you talk about the ripple effect and it 245 00:13:27.440 --> 00:13:30.000 was twenty years ago, and you take out the camera, 246 00:13:30.039 --> 00:13:32.039 you take out the tripod, there's a bunch of guys 247 00:13:32.039 --> 00:13:35.120 getting out of a van. Of course everyone's going to say, hey, 248 00:13:35.120 --> 00:13:37.720 what are you guys doing? And we would tell them 249 00:13:37.919 --> 00:13:42.960 and every single person that we talked to, so all 250 00:13:43.080 --> 00:13:45.440 I know about that. My daughter went to school with them, 251 00:13:45.519 --> 00:13:48.320 my cousin played in the band with one. Every single 252 00:13:48.399 --> 00:13:53.519 person had they cut some sort of connection either direct 253 00:13:53.600 --> 00:13:57.000 or indirect to the people directly involved, the Adam, Jack 254 00:13:57.039 --> 00:14:02.399 Strapers and the Stoddards, everyone every the sixteen year old waitress, 255 00:14:02.440 --> 00:14:05.480 the homeowner where we asked to shoot at her house. 256 00:14:05.639 --> 00:14:08.759 Everybody had some kind of connection in this town. So 257 00:14:09.240 --> 00:14:12.320 that's your ripple effect, is that it was like yesterday 258 00:14:12.360 --> 00:14:16.399 for everyone we talked to, you know. 259 00:14:16.440 --> 00:14:21.559 And Cassie certainly seemed to be beloved by most anyone 260 00:14:21.960 --> 00:14:26.679 and everyone in that town. So it isn't just it 261 00:14:26.720 --> 00:14:31.600 isn't just the murder, it's the actual victim themselves. Can 262 00:14:31.639 --> 00:14:33.600 you tell us a little bit about Cassie, Joe, I 263 00:14:33.600 --> 00:14:36.879 don't want her to get lost in her own murder story. 264 00:14:36.919 --> 00:14:39.559 Tell us a little bit about Cassie. 265 00:14:39.879 --> 00:14:43.039 I think Cassie is it was kind of person that 266 00:14:43.200 --> 00:14:46.480 everybody wanted to be friends with. And I know that 267 00:14:46.519 --> 00:14:48.840 sounds like a cliche, but it's like, look at all 268 00:14:48.879 --> 00:14:51.360 of the clicks in high school, the jocks, the punks, 269 00:14:51.360 --> 00:14:55.399 the staters, the freaks, the nerds, brom queens. Cassie was 270 00:14:55.840 --> 00:14:58.480 in an artist she's so shooing out with the art kids, 271 00:14:58.600 --> 00:15:02.879 but also with the stater and her boyfriend to play football, 272 00:15:03.039 --> 00:15:05.399 So it seemed like she had a connection with a 273 00:15:05.440 --> 00:15:10.519 lot of different groups, but was reserver an introvert in 274 00:15:10.559 --> 00:15:15.360 a lot of ways, so she didn't beautiful, was just 275 00:15:15.399 --> 00:15:19.200 a stand out, Like she was such a unique persona 276 00:15:19.320 --> 00:15:22.919 in person in that school, and that was made it 277 00:15:23.000 --> 00:15:27.639 even more shocking and baffling, like why this person was 278 00:15:28.240 --> 00:15:30.879 part of the mean group of the bullies or an 279 00:15:30.879 --> 00:15:33.480 outsider in any way. It seemed like she was cool 280 00:15:33.519 --> 00:15:36.799 with everybody, So that what made the crime even more 281 00:15:36.919 --> 00:15:40.240 senseless to target someone like her. 282 00:15:40.799 --> 00:15:43.200 I spoke to her mom. Her mom died in twenty 283 00:15:43.360 --> 00:15:47.360 twenty two, but I interviewed her earlier to get a 284 00:15:47.399 --> 00:15:52.240 sense of Cassie and straight a student, nobs all a's 285 00:15:52.279 --> 00:15:56.360 and very focused and a little bit maybe on the 286 00:15:56.480 --> 00:16:01.399 serious side, and she had goals. And her mom told me, 287 00:16:01.440 --> 00:16:04.840 this is heartbreaking. She wanted to be a lawyer and 288 00:16:05.080 --> 00:16:08.120 a prosecutor, and she said, Mom, I want to put 289 00:16:08.120 --> 00:16:11.559 the bad guys away. Wow, And that's something that's stuck 290 00:16:11.600 --> 00:16:11.960 with me. 291 00:16:13.000 --> 00:16:17.200 I like the fact that you made sure that Cassie 292 00:16:17.600 --> 00:16:23.799 did not get lost in the hullabaloo of the trial 293 00:16:24.120 --> 00:16:28.240 and all of the attendant issues that came with it, 294 00:16:28.320 --> 00:16:29.519 but that we're going to, of course get to you 295 00:16:29.559 --> 00:16:31.720 in a couple of minutes. That's the life without parole 296 00:16:32.200 --> 00:16:34.360 question and so forth. But I liked the fact that, 297 00:16:34.559 --> 00:16:37.720 unlike a lot of other documentaries, you didn't let Cassie 298 00:16:37.919 --> 00:16:41.080 get lost in the middle of it. The love for 299 00:16:41.120 --> 00:16:44.440 her in the town really it stayed through all three 300 00:16:44.480 --> 00:16:47.519 of the episodes. So I really applaud and appreciate you 301 00:16:47.559 --> 00:16:51.000 guys for making sure that Cassie was never lost in 302 00:16:51.039 --> 00:16:53.120 the fray, and I think you did a beautiful job 303 00:16:53.159 --> 00:16:53.360 with that. 304 00:16:55.320 --> 00:16:55.679 Thank you. 305 00:16:55.799 --> 00:16:58.240 It's important when we try to get as many voices 306 00:16:58.399 --> 00:17:01.480 and sign as many moments back then the kids with 307 00:17:01.639 --> 00:17:05.359 painting the rock and the funeral service is heartbreaking, but 308 00:17:05.440 --> 00:17:08.079 I think anybody who's watching it, it can all go back 309 00:17:08.079 --> 00:17:10.279 to their high school years and couldn't imagine going through 310 00:17:10.319 --> 00:17:12.680 that when you go into that classroom and that desk 311 00:17:12.799 --> 00:17:15.759 chair is empty, and it's such a profound loss. 312 00:17:16.920 --> 00:17:19.000 One of the things I was struck by was looking 313 00:17:19.039 --> 00:17:22.920 through your cast list. How many different students you were 314 00:17:22.960 --> 00:17:27.319 able to get to participate in this thing. Did you 315 00:17:27.400 --> 00:17:30.440 run into a lot of nos? Or was everybody pretty 316 00:17:30.480 --> 00:17:33.599 much willing to step forward now that some time had 317 00:17:33.640 --> 00:17:34.119 gone by. 318 00:17:35.240 --> 00:17:37.839 There were definitely some nose, some that just didn't want 319 00:17:37.839 --> 00:17:39.440 to be a part of it, Some didn't feel like 320 00:17:39.480 --> 00:17:43.920 they could go back to that time, some who had 321 00:17:43.960 --> 00:17:47.000 been featured in the local news. We have to get 322 00:17:47.039 --> 00:17:50.839 clearance because they were the miners at the time, and 323 00:17:50.880 --> 00:17:54.319 they said, coming on cameraon talking about this is not 324 00:17:54.400 --> 00:17:56.240 something I want to do, but I'll give you my 325 00:17:56.359 --> 00:18:00.680 blessing to use that interview that I did thand and six. 326 00:18:01.039 --> 00:18:05.279 So yeah, I think we've got more participation than expected 327 00:18:05.480 --> 00:18:09.720 because of how sensitive the situation was, and we wanted 328 00:18:09.720 --> 00:18:11.880 to make sure it felt well rounded and not only 329 00:18:11.960 --> 00:18:14.799 be before whould speak for Cassie, but those who knew 330 00:18:14.839 --> 00:18:18.480 Brian and Toy and before and the after. Because I 331 00:18:18.480 --> 00:18:20.839 think everybody was sortally blindsided by this. 332 00:18:22.000 --> 00:18:24.799 You did get a lot of yeses, And I think, 333 00:18:25.039 --> 00:18:27.519 and this is just speculation, I think the fact that 334 00:18:27.519 --> 00:18:30.359 it was twenty years had gone by and they were 335 00:18:30.359 --> 00:18:36.839 now adults and they could speak more rationally than of 336 00:18:36.880 --> 00:18:40.559 the moment where you're just shell shocked and emotional. I 337 00:18:40.640 --> 00:18:43.079 think that was part of why so many people agreed 338 00:18:43.119 --> 00:18:46.440 to do it, because they had this time to move 339 00:18:46.480 --> 00:18:49.839 on and reflect and have now they have kids. I 340 00:18:49.839 --> 00:18:51.559 think that made it a little bit easier. 341 00:18:53.759 --> 00:18:56.640 So let's talk about Brian and Tory for a minute 342 00:18:56.680 --> 00:18:59.680 and the things that they ended up being ultimately very 343 00:18:59.759 --> 00:19:02.359 much influenced by and those are two of the things 344 00:19:02.400 --> 00:19:06.559 that I would consider probably the largest cultural touchstones from 345 00:19:06.759 --> 00:19:09.640 the late nineties early two thousands. They were influenced by 346 00:19:09.799 --> 00:19:13.559 the horror series Scream, which said the seventh movie is 347 00:19:13.599 --> 00:19:17.119 about to come out this weekend, and then that horrific 348 00:19:17.279 --> 00:19:20.640 mass shooting at Columbine High School, which I remember very 349 00:19:20.640 --> 00:19:22.799 well because it was my senior year in high school. 350 00:19:23.519 --> 00:19:26.599 Did Try and Brian ever explain in any of the 351 00:19:26.640 --> 00:19:29.480 interviews that they did, either with police or with y'all, 352 00:19:29.880 --> 00:19:33.759 why were they so fixated on those two things in particular, 353 00:19:33.960 --> 00:19:35.240 Scream and Columbine. 354 00:19:37.599 --> 00:19:40.960 I asked both of them about Scream, and neither of 355 00:19:41.000 --> 00:19:48.240 them really wanted to put a lot of emphasis on that. Obviously, 356 00:19:48.359 --> 00:19:51.160 as Pat pointed out, it's going to be just like Scream. 357 00:19:51.200 --> 00:19:54.359 They stand the tape, Their locker room is lined with 358 00:19:54.440 --> 00:19:55.640 horror film posters. 359 00:19:55.680 --> 00:19:58.000 Tory has a shrine of the Michael Myers mass. 360 00:19:58.480 --> 00:20:03.519 Brian is watching the original Scream opening scene, which in 361 00:20:03.559 --> 00:20:06.599 a lot of ways they basically mimic. They would mimic 362 00:20:06.680 --> 00:20:11.079 ten hours after later that day, the Columbine. I think 363 00:20:11.200 --> 00:20:17.559 for Brian, the Columbine was something that this, as he 364 00:20:17.799 --> 00:20:20.640 called it, a sort of pollution that was taking over 365 00:20:21.079 --> 00:20:25.559 his teenage brain. And then these other stink, these other stimulants, 366 00:20:25.559 --> 00:20:29.160 whether they're horror films or their homemade movies, would be 367 00:20:29.200 --> 00:20:32.839 as soon to be school shooters. He became addicted to it, 368 00:20:32.880 --> 00:20:35.079 and it was just absorbing it, absorbing it, and all 369 00:20:35.160 --> 00:20:37.759 this darkness was coming in. And then Tory on the 370 00:20:37.799 --> 00:20:40.680 other side, he wanted to be a film director. In 371 00:20:40.839 --> 00:20:42.680 one point he said, I think I wanted to do 372 00:20:42.759 --> 00:20:44.920 something what you're doing now, So you see that kind 373 00:20:44.920 --> 00:20:48.880 of twisted irony. But he was living in a sort 374 00:20:48.920 --> 00:20:52.319 of a darkness in another realm. When we talked about 375 00:20:52.400 --> 00:20:55.559 he gets into the more existential crisis of a teenager. 376 00:20:55.920 --> 00:20:59.720 But they the tape, Why did they make the tape? 377 00:21:00.079 --> 00:21:04.519 It related to their horror fandom? Is it related to 378 00:21:05.480 --> 00:21:10.359 the Columbine home movies? The basement tapes? Was Brian following 379 00:21:10.440 --> 00:21:13.400 that because these guys chronicled what they were going to do, 380 00:21:13.440 --> 00:21:16.680 and that's essentially what Brian and Tory do. But that 381 00:21:16.759 --> 00:21:19.599 also element of wanting to write a screenplay and wanting 382 00:21:19.640 --> 00:21:22.319 to direct a slasher movie, all these things they have 383 00:21:22.480 --> 00:21:26.119 talked about to police. Definitely cannot be ignored. So it's 384 00:21:26.119 --> 00:21:28.599 almost the tape sometimes that's what they do that we've 385 00:21:28.640 --> 00:21:31.599 been struggling with what is the real purpose of the tape? 386 00:21:31.640 --> 00:21:34.440 And I think Brian tore you today when I questioned 387 00:21:34.480 --> 00:21:37.599 them about that, they didn't have a clear reason. There 388 00:21:37.680 --> 00:21:40.920 was a fantasy, there was a heightened exaggeration of their 389 00:21:40.960 --> 00:21:44.079 personas they were playing parts. So what part was real, 390 00:21:44.160 --> 00:21:47.680 what wasn't? What was play acting or what was clear 391 00:21:47.880 --> 00:21:52.720 methodical planning to commit first degree murder? 392 00:21:54.000 --> 00:21:58.720 Yeah, one of my reactions was, and I just I 393 00:21:58.720 --> 00:22:03.160 couldn't get over what kind of idiot makes a tape 394 00:22:03.200 --> 00:22:05.920 like this which is going to completely incriminate the two 395 00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:08.680 of them. That part was a real struggle for me. 396 00:22:09.680 --> 00:22:12.480 They it's hard to explain a lot of it, and 397 00:22:12.519 --> 00:22:16.079 that is one of the most hard things to explain 398 00:22:17.039 --> 00:22:20.079 if you watch the tape. They also had like fantasies 399 00:22:20.119 --> 00:22:24.240 about becoming famous serial killers and who's going to play 400 00:22:24.240 --> 00:22:27.480 them in the movie and can I control my own likeness? 401 00:22:27.519 --> 00:22:32.599