Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind over Murder podcast.
Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer,
Speaker 2: and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my
Speaker 2: experience as the brother of a murder victim to help
Speaker 2: other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book
Speaker 2: on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders and I'm the co
Speaker 2: administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with
Speaker 2: Kristin Dilly.
Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher,
Speaker 3: a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the
Speaker 3: social media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway
Speaker 3: Murders Facebook page with my partner in crime, Bill Thomas.
Speaker 4: Welcome to Mind of a Murder.
Speaker 2: I'm Kristin Dilly and I'm Bill Thomas.
Speaker 4: Well, we're joined today by Connor McCarthy and Patrick Rogers
Speaker 4: here to talk to us about the brand news free
Speaker 4: part documentary series The Scream Murder, a true teen horror
Speaker 4: story now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney Plus.
Speaker 4: Thanks for taking the time today, Thanks for thanks for
Speaker 4: having us as a dedicated fan of the Scream series
Speaker 4: of horror movies. There's no way I could resist that title.
Speaker 4: Were you guys hoping to pull in sands of the
Speaker 4: movie specifically, or was that just the best title for
Speaker 4: this case.
Speaker 5: It's a part of the story, and it's a big
Speaker 5: part of the story.
Speaker 6: How much was it influence so influential.
Speaker 5: To the crime itself is up for debate, and I
Speaker 5: think we're still talking about that twenty years later. Teenageerators
Speaker 5: commit a crime horror philm obsess.
Speaker 6: We can't ignore that.
Speaker 5: So clearly that was probably the most wrapped way in
Speaker 5: we want people to watch. Obviously tune in, but this
Speaker 5: is obviously is a much more complicated case than a
Speaker 5: copycat kill, which is far from the truth when it
Speaker 5: came to this with this crime.
Speaker 6: And if you watch on the tape that the boys made,
Speaker 6: they referenced the movie Scream, of course, and there if
Speaker 6: you see the clip where Brian's playing drums, the movie
Speaker 6: Scream is on the screen. He's playing drums. So, like
Speaker 6: Connor says, is there a lot more to this? Yes,
Speaker 6: there is is Scream a part of it. Oh, yes
Speaker 6: it is. There is a big part of it here.
Speaker 2: So walk us through just the basics of the case.
Speaker 2: For folks that might not be familiar with it or
Speaker 2: haven't seen a new documentary yet.
Speaker 6: Okay, So in two thousand and six, September twenty seconds,
Speaker 6: two homeowners from Pocatello, Idaho return home from a three
Speaker 6: day vacation and they find on the floor stabbed to
Speaker 6: death Cassie Joe Stoddard, who was house sitting for them
Speaker 6: when they went on this vacation. And that's how everything starts.
Speaker 6: So the day call nine one one and an investigation begins.
Speaker 6: Cassie is a sixteen year old high school student. She
Speaker 6: was just their house sitting. There was nothing else happening
Speaker 6: at the house. Upon investigation, they realized. The investigators discovered
Speaker 6: that Cassie's boyfriend, Matt, had come over to keep her company,
Speaker 6: essentially while she was house sitting. So they went to
Speaker 6: question Matt about this, and he says while he was
Speaker 6: there and at the house, some strange things had happened.
Speaker 6: The lights had gone off and on, they heard some
Speaker 6: glass breaking. The lights stayed off for a little while,
Speaker 6: then they came back on. They heard something in the basement.
Speaker 6: They were afraid to go down there, so Matt was
Speaker 6: not allowed to sleep over, so his mom comes and
Speaker 6: gets him. He leaves. Cassie's fine when he leaves, but
Speaker 6: he also tells police that there were two other visitors
Speaker 6: that night, two of their classmates, Brian Draper and Tory Adamchek,
Speaker 6: also Bull sixteen. They had come over because they had
Speaker 6: heard Cassie was going to be house sitting. Maybe there'd
Speaker 6: be a little party. There wasn't, so Matt tells the
Speaker 6: investigators about these two other kids. They go to question them.
Speaker 6: They admit that they were there, Brian and Torrey Bull.
Speaker 6: They were there, and they said that they had left
Speaker 6: and they'd gone to the movies. Now this is where
Speaker 6: another place where the movies play come into play. They
Speaker 6: were both horror movie fans. They were out of horror
Speaker 6: movie and when the police say what was the movie about,
Speaker 6: neither of them can remember what it was about. So
Speaker 6: police immediately start to unravel their story. Their alibi falls apart.
Speaker 6: They tell another lie, also disproven. Eventually, Brian Draper comes
Speaker 6: in and confesses that he and Tory actually left the house,
Speaker 6: came back later and murdered Cassie. He also directs police
Speaker 6: to a spot outside Pocatello where they've buried the evidence
Speaker 6: knives clothes, masks, and a tape, and once they put
Speaker 6: this tape in the case takes a gigantic turn when
Speaker 6: they see what's on it.
Speaker 4: That tape was chilling, Yes, it was. It was chilling.
Speaker 6: You guys are steeped in true crime. You've done countless
Speaker 6: hours and so of Connor and I and we've never
Speaker 6: ever seen anything like that.
Speaker 4: It's interesting. It did remind me a lot of the
Speaker 4: basement tapes from the two Columbine killers, Dylan Claybald and
Speaker 4: Eric Harris, which obviously there are some similarities that the
Speaker 4: two killers in this case wanted to draw between themselves
Speaker 4: and Eric and Dylan. So I'm wondering if maybe that's
Speaker 4: why they went to the links of making that tape.
Speaker 4: But that tape was I was actually a little we
Speaker 4: were watching it. I was like, are they going to
Speaker 4: share the tape? I want to see it? And then yeah,
Speaker 4: but boy, I actually wish I hadn't.
Speaker 6: Very very hard to watch. It's hard to believe your eyes. Actually,
Speaker 6: it's hard to believe what you're seeing.
Speaker 4: So how did you guys even hear about this case?
Speaker 4: Because I went through the mental rolodex and I realized
Speaker 4: I don't remember this case, and it seems like one
Speaker 4: I would have heard about. So where did it come
Speaker 4: on your radar?
Speaker 6: Like I said earlier, it happened in September twenty second
Speaker 6: in two thousand and six, and I found out about
Speaker 6: it almost like right away. I was working in true crime,
Speaker 6: and I think I heard about it by Halloween because
Speaker 6: they got around there. They got arrested pretty fast. I
Speaker 6: did a lot of research back then, and in two
Speaker 6: thousand and nine I did an hour long documentary for
Speaker 6: MSNBC on this same case. So I've known about it
Speaker 6: since basically the day it happened. It just came on
Speaker 6: my radar. It may sound odd to listeners, but I'm
Speaker 6: just and so is Connor. We're constantly looking for something
Speaker 6: and you can get taken far Afield and Pocatello, Idaho.
Speaker 6: It's nowhere near where I was living, but it came
Speaker 6: on the radar and I immediately jumped on it for
Speaker 6: that MSNBC show. Yeah, and for me, it was over
Speaker 6: a year ago October twenty twenty four when Pat and
Speaker 6: I started talking about the case, it had almost been
Speaker 6: twenty years, reaching the twenty year anniversary to like I
Speaker 6: were an anniversary. It's September, and I the approach that
Speaker 6: I went in terms of reaching out was obviously to
Speaker 6: Cassie's family, but also so Brian and Tory's parents. I
Speaker 6: felt that was a perspective that we don't hear from
Speaker 6: very office.
Speaker 5: And there are three families involved. Prefamilies were ruined in
Speaker 5: very different ways. The levels of catastrophe and what happens,
Speaker 5: particularly for siblings of Brian and Tory. The parents, people
Speaker 5: can lay blame on however they want. They didn't do enough,
Speaker 5: they did too much, but the siblings are people that
Speaker 5: are just they go down unfortunately, and some of them
Speaker 5: were in the same school that Brian and Tory were
Speaker 5: attending that echo, and I think it just it's illustrated
Speaker 5: through our high school students. We bring on, the teachers,
Speaker 5: that we bring on the magnitude of this case, particularly
Speaker 5: happening in the most formative point in these peoples lives
Speaker 5: that they're going to remember forever, and as you see
Speaker 5: particularly something of that, the high school students were still
Speaker 5: struggling to this day. I don't think they could even
Speaker 5: articulate the trauma that it really settled in, and for
Speaker 5: a lot of them it's the first time they've publicly
Speaker 5: spoken about that time in their life. High school was
Speaker 5: over for a lot of them once this thing, once
Speaker 5: this murder occurred.
Speaker 2: At the time you reached out to the families, had
Speaker 2: you too made the decision that you were definitely going
Speaker 2: to do a documentary or did you want to wait
Speaker 2: and see what kind of reaction you've got or if
Speaker 2: there was any interest or level of support.
Speaker 5: I think once Shannon said she'd be open to participating,
Speaker 5: and the thing that they wanted to talk about, we
Speaker 5: can talk about life without parole. Carry Draper came on board,
Speaker 5: and well, when one says yes, then the next one
Speaker 5: comes on and the next and we just started like
Speaker 5: reaching out slowly to everybody, they knowing this was a
Speaker 5: really difficult topic for a lot of people and not
Speaker 5: a phone call that they're going to want to get
Speaker 5: and be brought back to that time.
Speaker 6: But then as we were moving forward and bad I
Speaker 6: we didn't know where it was going to go.
Speaker 5: We knew it was something worth doing because we always
Speaker 5: ask ourselves, what is the purpose of this it is, Oh,
Speaker 5: it's this crazy crime, But we wanted something deeper than
Speaker 5: just retelling the story of a really terrible thing that
Speaker 5: committed in small town I'm America. We wanted something to
Speaker 5: have layers to it, and that's usually how we approach
Speaker 5: most of our projects. And the more people that we
Speaker 5: saw that were willing to come on, and really, I think,
Speaker 5: I think we have something that we can make and
Speaker 5: turn it into a sprawling, three part twenty year saga
Speaker 5: of the events of September two thousand and six.
Speaker 4: The fact that you were able to get the parents
Speaker 4: on was something that I was very interested in and
Speaker 4: very impressed by. And I feel terrible for those parents,
Speaker 4: And I was really struck by the fact that Pam
Speaker 4: Draper said in the very first episode that she still
Speaker 4: loves her son in spite of what he did. Did
Speaker 4: you find that sentiment to be true not only for
Speaker 4: both sets of parents, but maybe for friends of the boys.
Speaker 4: How did was there like a consensus of emotion across
Speaker 4: all the people who knew him or them?
Speaker 5: I'm sorry, I'm a parent of three, and so I
Speaker 5: can understand them. Think it's like just being able to
Speaker 5: turn your back on your child. But that is the
Speaker 5: greatest tennis of a parent, when your child commits the unforgiven.
Speaker 5: That was one thing that just in talking to him
Speaker 5: who tried to stay is neutral and be fair to
Speaker 5: them because they are stepping back out from the shadows,
Speaker 5: and they certainly were Pariah's back then and could be today.
Speaker 5: And it's a very controversial position I think they took.
Speaker 5: But their openness was extraordinary to say the least. And
Speaker 5: I know that this controversy that comes with that speaking
Speaker 5: to the Drapers in the Atom checks, but they certainly
Speaker 5: had enough conviction that they felt like it was worth
Speaker 5: coming back out, knowing that the hate mail may come,
Speaker 5: the emails, the text messages, and they just might find
Speaker 5: themselves right back where they were in two thousand and six.
Speaker 5: But the fact that they understand, I think the magnitude
Speaker 5: of what their sons did. At the same time, they
Speaker 5: still wanted to somehow have a relationship with them and
Speaker 5: be committed to them. But they definitely really conflicted, and
Speaker 5: I think Pam and more so Carrie, how they're still
Speaker 5: struggling with where they need to be in all of this.
Speaker 5: And I don't think they're ever going to fully know
Speaker 5: where they are in terms of being a parent and
Speaker 5: also being a parent and understanding losing a child to violence,
Speaker 5: how devastating that would be. Carrie said, if I lost
Speaker 5: one of my kids to that, I don't know what
Speaker 5: my position would be. It probably wouldn't be his position.
Speaker 5: It is right now with trying to look at let's
Speaker 5: have maybe a second chance.
Speaker 6: He's it's authority issue.
Speaker 5: And for the students, we found still a lot of
Speaker 5: shock and in some cases anger at what Brian and
Speaker 5: Tory did and what they took away. Not only Cassie, Yeah,
Speaker 5: was the thing they still are sore simple for, but
Speaker 5: in terms of the happiness and the homecoming and prom
Speaker 5: and football games and all those things that you're supposed
Speaker 5: to experience, for a lot of them, that all just
Speaker 5: went away and they just didn't experience that. It was
Speaker 5: just like some people left high school, they transferred and
Speaker 5: they couldn't stay there, and it's the ripple effect was wide.
Speaker 2: Yeah, We've talked about the ripple effect in the Colonial
Speaker 2: Parkway murders before, and actually, as you're laying out just
Speaker 2: the basics, one of the things I thought about was Pocatella, Idaho,
Speaker 2: where I've never been, is a relatively small place, and
Speaker 2: I actually was thinking about that ripple effect and wondering
Speaker 2: how many people just ended up leaving just to escape
Speaker 2: this horrific memory, which obviously continues to ripple to this day.
Speaker 6: The Adam Chucks and the Drapers left. They don't live
Speaker 6: there anymore, none of them. And they had other kids,
Speaker 6: I think Connor, they've all left. Yes, yeah, both sides.
Speaker 6: Both families left within a year to two years after
Speaker 6: everything happened, as well as some students. Some some families
Speaker 6: that they moved to Boise, five hours away for schools.
Speaker 6: They got out, So a lot of people just had
Speaker 6: to just walk away from the lens that they used
Speaker 6: to know. You know what was interesting is when we
Speaker 6: went there, you talk about the ripple effect and it
Speaker 6: was twenty years ago, and you take out the camera,
Speaker 6: you take out the tripod, there's a bunch of guys
Speaker 6: getting out of a van. Of course everyone's going to say, hey,
Speaker 6: what are you guys doing? And we would tell them
Speaker 6: and every single person that we talked to, so all
Speaker 6: I know about that. My daughter went to school with them,
Speaker 6: my cousin played in the band with one. Every single
Speaker 6: person had they cut some sort of connection either direct
Speaker 6: or indirect to the people directly involved, the Adam, Jack
Speaker 6: Strapers and the Stoddards, everyone every the sixteen year old waitress,
Speaker 6: the homeowner where we asked to shoot at her house.
Speaker 6: Everybody had some kind of connection in this town. So
Speaker 6: that's your ripple effect, is that it was like yesterday
Speaker 6: for everyone we talked to, you know.
Speaker 4: And Cassie certainly seemed to be beloved by most anyone
Speaker 4: and everyone in that town. So it isn't just it
Speaker 4: isn't just the murder, it's the actual victim themselves. Can
Speaker 4: you tell us a little bit about Cassie, Joe, I
Speaker 4: don't want her to get lost in her own murder story.
Speaker 4: Tell us a little bit about Cassie.
Speaker 5: I think Cassie is it was kind of person that
Speaker 5: everybody wanted to be friends with. And I know that
Speaker 5: sounds like a cliche, but it's like, look at all
Speaker 5: of the clicks in high school, the jocks, the punks,
Speaker 5: the staters, the freaks, the nerds, brom queens. Cassie was
Speaker 5: in an artist she's so shooing out with the art kids,
Speaker 5: but also with the stater and her boyfriend to play football,
Speaker 5: So it seemed like she had a connection with a
Speaker 5: lot of different groups, but was reserver an introvert in
Speaker 5: a lot of ways, so she didn't beautiful, was just
Speaker 5: a stand out, Like she was such a unique persona
Speaker 5: in person in that school, and that was made it
Speaker 5: even more shocking and baffling, like why this person was
Speaker 5: part of the mean group of the bullies or an
Speaker 5: outsider in any way. It seemed like she was cool
Speaker 5: with everybody, So that what made the crime even more
Speaker 5: senseless to target someone like her.
Speaker 6: I spoke to her mom. Her mom died in twenty
Speaker 6: twenty two, but I interviewed her earlier to get a
Speaker 6: sense of Cassie and straight a student, nobs all a's
Speaker 6: and very focused and a little bit maybe on the
Speaker 6: serious side, and she had goals. And her mom told me,
Speaker 6: this is heartbreaking. She wanted to be a lawyer and
Speaker 6: a prosecutor, and she said, Mom, I want to put
Speaker 6: the bad guys away. Wow, And that's something that's stuck
Speaker 6: with me.
Speaker 4: I like the fact that you made sure that Cassie
Speaker 4: did not get lost in the hullabaloo of the trial
Speaker 4: and all of the attendant issues that came with it,
Speaker 4: but that we're going to, of course get to you
Speaker 4: in a couple of minutes. That's the life without parole
Speaker 4: question and so forth. But I liked the fact that,
Speaker 4: unlike a lot of other documentaries, you didn't let Cassie
Speaker 4: get lost in the middle of it. The love for
Speaker 4: her in the town really it stayed through all three
Speaker 4: of the episodes. So I really applaud and appreciate you
Speaker 4: guys for making sure that Cassie was never lost in
Speaker 4: the fray, and I think you did a beautiful job
Speaker 4: with that.
Speaker 6: Thank you.
Speaker 5: It's important when we try to get as many voices
Speaker 5: and sign as many moments back then the kids with
Speaker 5: painting the rock and the funeral service is heartbreaking, but
Speaker 5: I think anybody who's watching it, it can all go back
Speaker 5: to their high school years and couldn't imagine going through
Speaker 5: that when you go into that classroom and that desk
Speaker 5: chair is empty, and it's such a profound loss.
Speaker 2: One of the things I was struck by was looking
Speaker 2: through your cast list. How many different students you were
Speaker 2: able to get to participate in this thing. Did you
Speaker 2: run into a lot of nos? Or was everybody pretty
Speaker 2: much willing to step forward now that some time had
Speaker 2: gone by.
Speaker 5: There were definitely some nose, some that just didn't want
Speaker 5: to be a part of it, Some didn't feel like
Speaker 5: they could go back to that time, some who had
Speaker 5: been featured in the local news. We have to get
Speaker 5: clearance because they were the miners at the time, and
Speaker 5: they said, coming on cameraon talking about this is not
Speaker 5: something I want to do, but I'll give you my
Speaker 5: blessing to use that interview that I did thand and six.
Speaker 5: So yeah, I think we've got more participation than expected
Speaker 5: because of how sensitive the situation was, and we wanted
Speaker 5: to make sure it felt well rounded and not only
Speaker 5: be before whould speak for Cassie, but those who knew
Speaker 5: Brian and Toy and before and the after. Because I
Speaker 5: think everybody was sortally blindsided by this.
Speaker 6: You did get a lot of yeses, And I think,
Speaker 6: and this is just speculation, I think the fact that
Speaker 6: it was twenty years had gone by and they were
Speaker 6: now adults and they could speak more rationally than of
Speaker 6: the moment where you're just shell shocked and emotional. I
Speaker 6: think that was part of why so many people agreed
Speaker 6: to do it, because they had this time to move
Speaker 6: on and reflect and have now they have kids. I
Speaker 6: think that made it a little bit easier.
Speaker 4: So let's talk about Brian and Tory for a minute
Speaker 4: and the things that they ended up being ultimately very
Speaker 4: much influenced by and those are two of the things
Speaker 4: that I would consider probably the largest cultural touchstones from
Speaker 4: the late nineties early two thousands. They were influenced by
Speaker 4: the horror series Scream, which said the seventh movie is
Speaker 4: about to come out this weekend, and then that horrific
Speaker 4: mass shooting at Columbine High School, which I remember very
Speaker 4: well because it was my senior year in high school.
Speaker 4: Did Try and Brian ever explain in any of the
Speaker 4: interviews that they did, either with police or with y'all,
Speaker 4: why were they so fixated on those two things in particular,
Speaker 4: Scream and Columbine.
Speaker 5: I asked both of them about Scream, and neither of
Speaker 5: them really wanted to put a lot of emphasis on that. Obviously,
Speaker 5: as Pat pointed out, it's going to be just like Scream.
Speaker 5: They stand the tape, Their locker room is lined with
Speaker 5: horror film posters.
Speaker 6: Tory has a shrine of the Michael Myers mass.
Speaker 5: Brian is watching the original Scream opening scene, which in
Speaker 5: a lot of ways they basically mimic. They would mimic
Speaker 5: ten hours after later that day, the Columbine. I think
Speaker 5: for Brian, the Columbine was something that this, as he
Speaker 5: called it, a sort of pollution that was taking over
Speaker 5: his teenage brain. And then these other stink, these other stimulants,
Speaker 5: whether they're horror films or their homemade movies, would be
Speaker 5: as soon to be school shooters. He became addicted to it,
Speaker 5: and it was just absorbing it, absorbing it, and all
Speaker 5: this darkness was coming in. And then Tory on the
Speaker 5: other side, he wanted to be a film director. In
Speaker 5: one point he said, I think I wanted to do
Speaker 5: something what you're doing now, So you see that kind
Speaker 5: of twisted irony. But he was living in a sort
Speaker 5: of a darkness in another realm. When we talked about
Speaker 5: he gets into the more existential crisis of a teenager.
Speaker 5: But they the tape, Why did they make the tape?
Speaker 5: It related to their horror fandom? Is it related to
Speaker 5: the Columbine home movies? The basement tapes? Was Brian following
Speaker 5: that because these guys chronicled what they were going to do,
Speaker 5: and that's essentially what Brian and Tory do. But that
Speaker 5: also element of wanting to write a screenplay and wanting
Speaker 5: to direct a slasher movie, all these things they have
Speaker 5: talked about to police. Definitely cannot be ignored. So it's
Speaker 5: almost the tape sometimes that's what they do that we've
Speaker 5: been struggling with what is the real purpose of the tape?
Speaker 5: And I think Brian tore you today when I questioned
Speaker 5: them about that, they didn't have a clear reason. There
Speaker 5: was a fantasy, there was a heightened exaggeration of their
Speaker 5: personas they were playing parts. So what part was real,
Speaker 5: what wasn't? What was play acting or what was clear
Speaker 5: methodical planning to commit first degree murder?
Speaker 2: Yeah, one of my reactions was, and I just I
Speaker 2: couldn't get over what kind of idiot makes a tape
Speaker 2: like this which is going to completely incriminate the two
Speaker 2: of them. That part was a real struggle for me.
Speaker 6: They it's hard to explain a lot of it, and
Speaker 6: that is one of the most hard things to explain
Speaker 6: if you watch the tape. They also had like fantasies
Speaker 6: about becoming famous serial killers and who's going to play
Speaker 6: them in the movie and can I control my own likeness?
Speaker 6: It was like it was lunacy and was it They're
Speaker 6: just teenagers. They don't know what they're doing, maybe, but
Speaker 6: they sure knew what they were doing when they went
Speaker 6: to that house where Cassie was house sitting that night. Yeah,
Speaker 6: you're right, what kind of person slash idiot would make
Speaker 6: some here's the evidence police. You can tell they weren't
Speaker 6: really thinking that. Clearly they had their kill list. Oh,
Speaker 6: here's the other people. We're gonna kill our other classmates.
Speaker 6: It's obviously something is broken in their brains that they
Speaker 6: thought we're gonna be able to get away with this
Speaker 6: b We're gonna be able to tape it all and see,
Speaker 6: we're gonna be famous serial killers. It is part of
Speaker 6: what makes this different from everything else, is this tape
Speaker 6: and where it came from inside them.
Speaker 2: You're listening to Mind Over Murder. We'll be right back
Speaker 2: after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at
Speaker 2: Mindover Murder.
Speaker 4: When I was watching the first episode, there's a line
Speaker 4: in the first Scream movie that I kept hearing over
Speaker 4: and over again, and I finally to go look it
Speaker 4: up to see what the actual quote wise. And it
Speaker 4: is when Billy and Sue are talking to Sydney, who
Speaker 4: for anybody who's not familiar with the series, Sydney's the
Speaker 4: Final Girl, and Sidney basically says, you guys have seen
Speaker 4: one two manute horror movies, and Billy says, sid, don't
Speaker 4: you blame the movies. Movies don't create psychos, Movies make
Speaker 4: psychos more creative. Do you think in any way Brian
Speaker 4: and Tory were rinping off that line when they went
Speaker 4: about designing their crime this way making the basement tape.
Speaker 4: Do you feel like that kind of holds true for
Speaker 4: these guys, that the movies actually made them more creative.
Speaker 6: When there's a section on the tape where they're talking
Speaker 6: about how bad they are and Brian says, we're sick psychopaths,
Speaker 6: they knew the first part of the first part of
Speaker 6: that the movies don't make psychopaths. They knew they or
Speaker 6: at least they were portraying themselves as psychopaths. And did
Speaker 6: they get inspiration your question is to make them more creative?
Speaker 6: I don't know, but it seems like they did get
Speaker 6: some inspiration from it, so they acknowledged both parts of
Speaker 6: that quote. That's very interesting you picked that out because
Speaker 6: in one sense they call themselves psychopaths. We're bad, says Tory,
Speaker 6: we're sick psychopaths. So they had that part covered, and
Speaker 6: then the movies. Clearly that was some influence now more creative.
Speaker 6: Here's one thing to consider. Corey made home videos, home
Speaker 6: movies of him of a masked killer stabbing. It was
Speaker 6: another little kid with a fake night. So like the creativity,
Speaker 6: maybe that was also inside them too. But it is
Speaker 6: an interesting thing to think about. How Connor has seen
Speaker 6: every horror movie there is to my knowledge, he has
Speaker 6: not yet stabbed anyone. So there's only so much we
Speaker 6: can say, look at these brutal horror movies that have
Speaker 6: influenced these kids. But they were aware of all of it.
Speaker 6: And Brian Tory actually shared locker. That's their shared locker,
Speaker 6: all those stickers, and one of the investigators that went
Speaker 6: to Brian's house said there were movie posters, horror movie posters,
Speaker 6: DVD's all over his room. It had some effects, that's
Speaker 6: for sure.
Speaker 5: I absolutely I grew up watching the shoot them ups
Speaker 5: in the horror movies and I wanting that Brian and Torri.
Speaker 5: I was a senior in high school once the first
Speaker 5: Scream came out, So that was the time for all
Speaker 5: of us living in DC at Quantico. Every time The
Speaker 5: Silence of the Lambs has a anniversary, they screen it.
Speaker 5: Why because it's a recruitment tool. People want to be clarice,
Speaker 5: they want to join the FBI. Top Gun Maverick Air
Speaker 5: Force goes through the rooms. Actors in the eighties and
Speaker 5: nineties were paid to smoke on screen. Why because people
Speaker 5: thought the smoking was cool. We're watching Bruce Willis and
Speaker 5: Diehard chainsmoke the whole time. That has it that is intentional?
Speaker 5: For me at stake? Do you want to think like
Speaker 5: past it we I've watched all these movies. I never
Speaker 5: had any color sort of violent inclinations, but it definitely
Speaker 5: I think we have to be truthful that it certainly
Speaker 5: can hit someone at the worst time in the the
Speaker 5: lion ideas.
Speaker 6: Are we saying ban horror movies?
Speaker 5: No, But to say that it had no impact or
Speaker 5: influence on these guys, I don't think would be an
Speaker 5: honest take on it, because it clearly did.
Speaker 4: Clearly Citurium if Brian are both thirty five now, and
Speaker 4: they did consent to appear on the documentary, and I
Speaker 4: was on pins and needles waiting to see if we
Speaker 4: were going to hear from them, and I was really
Speaker 4: surprised and pleased that we did. What has life been
Speaker 4: like for these guys in prison?
Speaker 5: For me going in because I conducted those interviews and
Speaker 5: I did it from home with video conference in We
Speaker 5: weren't allowed to bring cameras into the actual prison anywhere
Speaker 5: in Idaho is a no go, so everything was incremental.
Speaker 5: They were fifteen minute video conference and calls that I
Speaker 5: had to schedule over and over again.
Speaker 6: I was surprised by there.
Speaker 5: The first thing I made sure I did was save
Speaker 5: the name Cassie, so they knew where I was coming from.
Speaker 5: I want a total transparency. We're going to talk about everything.
Speaker 5: If we're going to do this, we have to talk
Speaker 5: about everything.
Speaker 6: And they were up for it. They definitely, in particular Brian.
Speaker 5: I think he's worked on himself for a long time
Speaker 5: to figure out who that kid on that tape was
Speaker 5: and trying to separate himself from that. And I think
Speaker 5: they're still trying to figure out where exactly that all
Speaker 5: came from. I had multiple conversations with them, and we
Speaker 5: didn't just talk about the case. We talked about everything else.
Speaker 5: But for me, they shouldn't have the opportunity to even
Speaker 5: have enlightenment on the inside. But I will say that
Speaker 5: it is not a good existence inside an institution like that.
Speaker 5: It is I don't know how they do it, to
Speaker 5: be honest, and it's for them.
Speaker 6: They're thirty five, but they could live to be seventy.
Speaker 2: We're older even or older you do the math.
Speaker 5: They could easily do seventy years on the inside. And
Speaker 5: when I talked to Carrie, Brian's father, he said the
Speaker 5: moment he realized his son had been had spent more
Speaker 5: time inside of prison than out in his life. Yeah,
Speaker 5: was the sentenced chills again of like how did life
Speaker 5: take this hard left turn?
Speaker 6: And here we are.
Speaker 5: We took carry out to how side of the prison
Speaker 5: to talk about this is the house his son has
Speaker 5: lived in for the last twenty years. And the fact
Speaker 5: that he was willing to do that and show me
Speaker 5: what a day in life was for him. Every Sunday
Speaker 5: or Saturday, he's going to the maximums Brian is in
Speaker 5: medium security, but he's going to the Department of Corrections
Speaker 5: to visit his sun.
Speaker 2: The fifteen minute segments, that was just due to the
Speaker 2: rules of the prison in terms of how long you
Speaker 2: were allowed to talk to the prisoners.
Speaker 5: Correct you could book two sessions, two fifteen minute sessions
Speaker 5: back to back. Part of it, and it's there's a
Speaker 5: cost that's attached to it, which we weren't worried about,
Speaker 5: but it's a way to allow a lot of inmates
Speaker 5: obviously want to reach out, and so it's how they
Speaker 5: manage it. Technology was not great, broadband quality was within
Speaker 5: the documentary, so there was an advantage to doing it
Speaker 5: that way as a post just bringing a camera in,
Speaker 5: sitting down and getting one opportunity and they could say
Speaker 5: you have an hour.
Speaker 6: That's all we would have gotten this.
Speaker 5: I was able to build a rapport with them over
Speaker 5: the course of two or three months, and I think
Speaker 5: as a result, we compromised quality, but we definitely got
Speaker 5: a lot more substance out of it.
Speaker 2: Did you find yourself going back and watching each segment
Speaker 2: when it was complete before you got to the next meeting?
Speaker 6: If yeah.
Speaker 5: I never wanted to overwhelm them where they would shut down,
Speaker 5: because I said to Tory, I said, I know, I'm
Speaker 5: just a reminder of the past. He said, I opened
Speaker 5: my eyes and it's a reminder of the past. So
Speaker 5: they have just gotten moved past all these things. They
Speaker 5: just basically, you're not going to ask me anything that
Speaker 5: hasn't I have been already addressed internally. But definitely, like
Speaker 5: I would want to disincrementally make sure that we're getting
Speaker 5: everything out of them, where that's who they were before,
Speaker 5: what led up to them, how they came together the
Speaker 5: night of and in the aftermath, and certainly the years
Speaker 5: since of Tory saying he woke up one day and
Speaker 5: he's twenty five years old and he's, oh my gosh,
Speaker 5: what happened gulfs and he came out of this fog?
Speaker 5: And that twenty five twenty six is obviously we get
Speaker 5: into the brain science of particularly the male brain and
Speaker 5: what's going on there, whether people think that should be
Speaker 5: a part of this or not.
Speaker 6: It's those milestones.
Speaker 5: I think they just kept coming up as we were
Speaker 5: making the documentary.
Speaker 6: I think we have to acknowledge Connor's patients with the
Speaker 6: Idaho Department of Corrections, these two prisoners and the parents,
Speaker 6: like it was not this was not easy, and he
Speaker 6: did it basically all by himself, where it was especially
Speaker 6: with Shannon Adamcheck, just baby steps and never giving up
Speaker 6: and not being able to find common ground enough to
Speaker 6: be able to go to the next step. And it
Speaker 6: was very laborious and you can't imagine you can understand
Speaker 6: why they are guarded and they they might not want
Speaker 6: to talk. It's totally understandable, but Connor like just kept
Speaker 6: going and was able to relate to them very well.
Speaker 5: We didn't want it to feel like a hit piece,
Speaker 5: because if it was just going to be east there's
Speaker 5: good and there's bad, why bring them in? And I
Speaker 5: wanted to make them feel like they had Okay, here's
Speaker 5: I'm giving. We want to give you guys time to
Speaker 5: speak on your behalf because I wanted them to see
Speaker 5: a little that I we interview them, We bring them
Speaker 5: in and then we pull the rug right out from
Speaker 5: under them. And but we don't need to make it
Speaker 5: a hippie because they did it themselves, and a tape,
Speaker 5: the crime, all of those things obviously speak for themselves.
Speaker 5: So we didn't need to elevate any more of the horror.
Speaker 5: Just as Paan Draper said to me, this story just
Speaker 5: speaks for itself. There's no reason to come in and
Speaker 5: dramatize it anymore because it cannot get any worse than
Speaker 5: how just the basic facts of this case are.
Speaker 4: Why were Brian and Tory willing to talk?
Speaker 5: Oh, this is the first time Tory, he's actually getting
Speaker 5: an interview in the many years. I think they wanted
Speaker 5: to speak about life without parole. They want to talk
Speaker 5: about theirselfs okay, yeah, and they wanted to talk about
Speaker 5: how they are. I think Brian and he does it
Speaker 5: in a way where he says he separates himself from
Speaker 5: his sixteen year old self to who he is now.
Speaker 6: The sixteen year old is the.
Speaker 5: One that put me here, and I'm now doing the
Speaker 5: punishment for his crime. And that is a mindbender. Yeah,
Speaker 5: that sometimes it's hard to grapple with. You can just
Speaker 5: look at it from the surface, as said in the documentary,
Speaker 5: should his age matter? Know, the deed should matter? And
Speaker 5: that's as far as we need to look. But as
Speaker 5: we've seen with how states have approached these this kind
Speaker 5: of sentences for a juvenile, it's a controversy and a
Speaker 5: lot of states are doing things differently. The Supreme Court
Speaker 5: took it up so clearly it was a topic and
Speaker 5: an issue debate that they felt that it was worthy
Speaker 5: that it reached all the way to the top on
Speaker 5: the judicial branch. So I think that's what they wanted
Speaker 5: to do, and it's They've had a lot of time
Speaker 5: to think about what they've done and how many lives
Speaker 5: they affected, and I think that's going to be the
Speaker 5: hardest part for them to watch, is particularly to see
Speaker 5: their parents how they have stood by them all this time,
Speaker 5: yet their lives have been ruined because of their actions,
Speaker 5: and so that weight is, I think is on them
Speaker 5: and I think that was part of the reason why
Speaker 5: they wanted to participate.
Speaker 2: Will they be permitted to watch the documentary?
Speaker 5: Yes, we sent DVD to each of them, so it
Speaker 5: has to go through If they can't stream it, it
Speaker 5: has to go to the.
Speaker 6: Director of the prison.
Speaker 5: They will go through, It will then go through a
Speaker 5: review process, and then once they thinking that it's appropriate
Speaker 5: for them to watch, then they'll be able to watch it.
Speaker 2: Is your expectation that it will clear this process and
Speaker 2: that they will ultimately be able to watch it.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 5: I know Brian has watched it. I have not heard
Speaker 5: from him, but I don't know about to worry. So
Speaker 5: it's reached at least one of them. You've got families
Speaker 5: on each side here. You've got Cassie, Joe's family who
Speaker 5: very understandably would not want Brian and Tory his sentences
Speaker 5: shortened in any way. And I think we all here
Speaker 5: can understand that point of view, But you also have
Speaker 5: Brian and Torre's families, I who again are seeing it
Speaker 5: from the point of view of our kids who have
Speaker 5: been in prison more many more years than they have
Speaker 5: been out of it, and we would like to see
Speaker 5: they're sentence shortened. Do you guys feel knowing with them
Speaker 5: and talking with them, do you feel that they have
Speaker 5: been truly rehabilitated or are they too dangerous to be
Speaker 5: let out into society. I want to say one thing,
Speaker 5: and then I think Pat can jump in on this.
Speaker 5: I don't think guy, the family, Adam Jux, the Drapers
Speaker 5: are asking for this sentence to be shortened. I think
Speaker 5: they're asking for just the opportunity to sit in front
Speaker 5: of a parole board. I gotcha, Okay, you know, and
Speaker 5: I think that is a clear distinction. Do they believe
Speaker 5: that they should be really least at some point in
Speaker 5: in the near future. What that might be ten years,
Speaker 5: twenty years, I'm not sure, but just have some hope
Speaker 5: that at least they could have a chance to speak
Speaker 5: on them present, who they are today versus who they
Speaker 5: were when they committed the crime at sixteen.
Speaker 6: Yeah, the question is very difficult. These are sixteen year
Speaker 6: olds that did this horrible thing. But I go back
Speaker 6: to the words of the trial judge who sentenced them
Speaker 6: to life without parole, and he said, you guys made
Speaker 6: a list of people you want to kill, and you
Speaker 6: said you wanted to kill Cassie, and you did kill Cassie.
Speaker 6: How am I to know that if I let you,
Speaker 6: if someday you're out, that you won't do that. I
Speaker 6: can't know that you wrote down that you wanted to
Speaker 6: kill these people. You said on camera you wanted to
Speaker 6: kill a person and did it. So why would I
Speaker 6: ever take and why would the State of Idaho ever
Speaker 6: take that risk to let you out? Now, these guys
Speaker 6: are clearly different people than when this happened. But if
Speaker 6: you're if you're the judge, and if you're the state
Speaker 6: of Idaho, and these kids have murdered someone after clearly
Speaker 6: stating their intentions to murder someone and then have a
Speaker 6: list of other people they want to murder, you can
Speaker 6: see why that life without parole sentence starts to make
Speaker 6: more sense. I think, like Connor said, the families and
Speaker 6: even some of the law enforcement we talked to, especially
Speaker 6: with Brian, because he did give it up. The lead
Speaker 6: investigator John Gansky told us he did cooperate, and cooperations
Speaker 6: should get you something, and in his opinion, that something
Speaker 6: was a chance at a parole board someday. Now not
Speaker 6: in the foreseeable future, but someday he should be able
Speaker 6: to at least go to a parole board. Tory, nobody
Speaker 6: really seemed to think he should get a second chance,
Speaker 6: but Brian, because of what his cooperation, they thought that
Speaker 6: he should get another chance.
Speaker 4: And is that why Brian is in medium security and
Speaker 4: Tories in Max.
Speaker 5: It's I think it really has to do with job opportunity.
Speaker 6: It's got a good answer.
Speaker 5: Or Tory said he got a job that he could
Speaker 5: do and it would be MAX, but he'd be in
Speaker 5: a particular wing within maxim security, so he took it.
Speaker 6: So I don't think that it's about who's been better.
Speaker 5: But I will say that Brian has spent a lot
Speaker 5: of time as a mentor restorative promise and how he
Speaker 5: would look at it and how he explained to me.
Speaker 5: This is not something we go into the documentary, but
Speaker 5: he says, Hey, get these kids to come in. Maybe
Speaker 5: they corjacked, he committed somewhat of a violent crime, but
Speaker 5: they are going to get out in five years, and
Speaker 5: he wants to help them to make sure that they
Speaker 5: don't come back and spend the rest of their life
Speaker 5: like he is. He said, I don't want to be
Speaker 5: the example, by I am the example. So if I
Speaker 5: can prevent this kid from go back out there and
Speaker 5: ended up killing someone, I feel like I am trying
Speaker 5: to save lives in the future, and that's a bit petty,
Speaker 5: and that's the best that he can do. And I
Speaker 5: think that if he feels that, if he just continues that,
Speaker 5: then maybe some days someone goes, Okay, you know what
Speaker 5: you just did forty years of trying to send these
Speaker 5: kids back out to be upstanding citizens, get jobs, get married,
Speaker 5: have kids. Maybe then at that point would he get
Speaker 5: a consideration.
Speaker 2: Do you two, as documentary filmmakers, feel that your own
Speaker 2: personal attitudes towards Tory and Brian shifted at all over
Speaker 2: the course of researching and putting together the series.
Speaker 5: I would say yes, because of my direct relationships with
Speaker 5: the parents and with Brian and Tory. Pat has a
Speaker 5: different angle because obviously he met Anna, Cassie's mother, and
Speaker 5: that clearly has had a lasting impression on him.
Speaker 6: It's hard I have kids.
Speaker 5: They were running around upstairs as I was conducting interviews,
Speaker 5: and that was always in the back of my mind.
Speaker 5: And recently I just realized that my daughter, in just
Speaker 5: a few years, will have lived a longer life than
Speaker 5: Cassie did. And my daughter is a child, so that
Speaker 5: if someone took her from me, how do you have
Speaker 5: you guys unfortunately experienced it to be able to recover,
Speaker 5: particularly losing a child in that way. However, I hear
Speaker 5: I am speaking to too seemingly intelligent, able bodied human
Speaker 5: beings and just languishing, And I wonder if there's something
Speaker 5: in the middle. Ye Wan, Brian and Torri. We don't
Speaker 5: want to run into him at the local walmart. I
Speaker 5: don't think anybody is for that. But on this other
Speaker 5: side of them, just walking these long corridors of center
Speaker 5: blocks and bars, is there something else that they could
Speaker 5: be put towards, some kind of redemptive program of some
Speaker 5: that allows them to give something back to society because
Speaker 5: they had taken so much from so many people. I
Speaker 5: think there's I think there's room for that. So your answer, yes,
Speaker 5: I have evolved a little bit, but it's hard to
Speaker 5: be to commit.
Speaker 6: I haven't experienced a violent crime directly.
Speaker 5: Obviously, I've worked with a lot of people over the
Speaker 5: years and keep in touch with still to this day,
Speaker 5: so I have to acknowledge that it's.
Speaker 6: How can you ask someone who has lost a family.
Speaker 5: Member to violence to to say, Okay, maybe it is
Speaker 5: time for them to get an opportunity to do something
Speaker 5: that other than sit inside a jail.
Speaker 2: Still, Pat, what do you think for my money?
Speaker 6: I guess it's I guess you could call in an
Speaker 6: evolution or a change in thinking, but not in a
Speaker 6: not a favorable way to either of them. I guess
Speaker 6: what I would say is that when I first did
Speaker 6: this story, I really thought that Tory was a pure
Speaker 6: psychopath and that he was very dangerous, and if it
Speaker 6: wasn't this, it would have been something else, and that
Speaker 6: Brian was not along for the ride. I never thought that.
Speaker 6: But if there was a hierarchy, Tory was in charge.
Speaker 6: And my thinking has shifted only in the negative to Brian,
Speaker 6: which is I think that he is also just as
Speaker 6: to blame for this. That's how I've changed is I
Speaker 6: used to think one of them was a leader and
Speaker 6: one is a follower. Now I think it's more equal
Speaker 6: and they're equally bad. I don't know if there's any redemption.
Speaker 6: I don't their parents can go see them in prison,
Speaker 6: and Cassie's family has to go to the graveyard. So
Speaker 6: that always stays with me. Yeah, but again I didn't
Speaker 6: talk to them the way Connor did, and as adults,
Speaker 6: I met Tory when he was maybe eighteen, after that,
Speaker 6: maybe nineteen. So yeah, to answer your question, it has change,
Speaker 6: is styt worse?
Speaker 4: What do you ultimately what do you ultimately want the
Speaker 4: people who watched this to take away from it? What
Speaker 4: would you I don't know, like two or three key
Speaker 4: to This is such a high school teacher question to ask,
Speaker 4: but that's what I am. What are your two to
Speaker 4: three key takeaways that you want people to walk away
Speaker 4: from having watched this documentary to come away with?
Speaker 5: I mean, I think it's we talked about earlier with
Speaker 5: the purpose. What is the purpose of this? And my
Speaker 5: father in law I think grabbed it the most. He
Speaker 5: watched it and he said, every parent and should watch
Speaker 5: this documentary as a cautionary tale. We're still having this
Speaker 5: conversation about teen crisis, particularly the boys and what's happening,
Speaker 5: and they're the ones committing crimes.
Speaker 6: The influence of the Internet.
Speaker 5: Brian and Tory were the early stages of YouTube, and
Speaker 5: they could easily go into some really dark places, and
Speaker 5: they did, and they had access to go in really
Speaker 5: dark places. And it's hard to be a parent. But
Speaker 5: it's obviously we're battling this now. We all day to
Speaker 5: put our phones down. We need to talk to each
Speaker 5: other more at the kitchen table. I know that sounds hokey,
Speaker 5: but for me, it's just like you eat roles. You
Speaker 5: really want to stay in touch with your kids. And
Speaker 5: I think with the drapers and the atom checks, both
Speaker 5: are still what did I miss? What didn't I do?
Speaker 5: Did I do too much of this? Was I on
Speaker 5: the roadad too much? Was I so focused on making money?
Speaker 5: Did I push them to take to play baseball when
Speaker 5: we wanted to play the flute.
Speaker 6: There's all these things that you grapple.
Speaker 5: With on how a kid could go to such a
Speaker 5: dark place, not one two and find each other in
Speaker 5: a town of fifty thousand people and the other corner
Speaker 5: of Idaho, which is an whole other thing, like how
Speaker 5: did those two find each other? It has such a
Speaker 5: common darkness, and I think that unfortunately for the Drapers
Speaker 5: and the Atom Checks. They were so honest about it,
Speaker 5: and I think we should at least peak something away
Speaker 5: from that that we need to take just we need
Speaker 5: to pay attention to our kids more, and I think
Speaker 5: that's the hardest thing. We're so busy where we help
Speaker 5: our careers and everything else, and you never know what
Speaker 5: your kids think, what they're watching, who they're befriending on
Speaker 5: the street. And I think for that is that's the
Speaker 5: real takeaway from my sense. I thought that's what the
Speaker 5: value of making this documentary was really, that was the core.
Speaker 4: Of pat How about you.
Speaker 6: I'm not sure if the takeaway that I have is
Speaker 6: as enlightened or hopeful as that. I think it's more fear.
Speaker 6: I think it's I think it's a terror, and it's
Speaker 6: a terror on many levels. It's a terror to think
Speaker 6: what Cassie was going through in her last moments, and
Speaker 6: it's a terror to think that there could be kids
Speaker 6: like this walking around a high school right now. And
Speaker 6: it's a terror to think that these parents that Adam
Speaker 6: Checks and the Drapers were really good parents. They were present,
Speaker 6: they had jobs, there was no drugs or alcohol problems
Speaker 6: these parents. Did you know everything right. I don't know
Speaker 6: about everything, but they didn't. They seem to be doing
Speaker 6: everything right, and this still happened. And that's terror that
Speaker 6: you can do every single right, and you don't know.
Speaker 6: When your kid goes upstairs and he turns on the internet,
Speaker 6: he could be into the darkest place in the world
Speaker 6: in seconds. And you don't know that when Hong Kong,
Speaker 6: your son's friend comes to pick him up to go
Speaker 6: out for the night, where they're really going. That's the terror.
Speaker 6: I think it's terror all around. And also for the
Speaker 6: town to think that this could happen in this little
Speaker 6: Mormon town in Idaho. So to me, it's more of
Speaker 6: a gut level like this. This was a This was
Speaker 6: a horror all around world.
Speaker 4: Which makes it very fitting a true teen horror story.
Speaker 4: The series it ends the Scream Murder, a true teen
Speaker 4: horror story now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney Plus.
Speaker 4: Connor pat Any final words.
Speaker 6: Teern In It's a hard watch, but it's loaded.
Speaker 5: We want people to watch it, but be prepared that
Speaker 5: they know what they're getting into before they hit playing.
Speaker 6: That's what I would say too, is that this podcast
Speaker 6: is for true crime people and if you are a
Speaker 6: true crime person. Not to give my own show a
Speaker 6: big plug, this is almost like a must watch. You
Speaker 6: will not have seen anything like this. I don't mean
Speaker 6: to be so open about it, but true crime people
Speaker 6: that are listening watch this. You're not going to see
Speaker 6: anything like this tape. Period.
Speaker 4: Yeah. It is a real it is a real moment
Speaker 4: of absolute, true, chilling horror. It's an amazing series, you guys,
Speaker 4: and we cannot thank you enough for joining us. This
Speaker 4: has been wonderful.
Speaker 6: Thank you for having us. Yes, thank you.
Speaker 4: That is going to do it to this episode of
Speaker 4: mind Ever Murder. Thank you so much for listening. We'll
Speaker 4: see you next time.
Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and
Speaker 1: Another Dog Productions.
Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley.
Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois.
Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McCloud.
Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with Coral Space Media.
Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram.
Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway
Speaker 1: Murders on Facebook.
Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at
Speaker 2: Bill Thomas five six.
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Mind Over Murder,