WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.120 --> 00:00:02.520 Before we dive in, here's another show you can enjoy 2 00:00:02.520 --> 00:00:05.120 in the True Story FM family of Entertainment podcasts. 3 00:00:05.400 --> 00:00:07.160 Ever, wonder where the Devil got his horns? 4 00:00:07.160 --> 00:00:08.960 How about those clove and hoovers for that pitch for 5 00:00:09.039 --> 00:00:10.160 it list me an angel? 6 00:00:10.240 --> 00:00:11.119 No, he was a snake. 7 00:00:11.199 --> 00:00:12.720 No, he's the great Red Drag. 8 00:00:12.880 --> 00:00:14.119 No, he's the beast. 9 00:00:14.160 --> 00:00:15.320 He's the Prince of this. 10 00:00:15.279 --> 00:00:18.480 World, Prince of Darkness, believes the Prince of dark Good 11 00:00:18.519 --> 00:00:21.239 Morning Star Loveli's one of my names is Lester Ryan. 12 00:00:21.079 --> 00:00:23.480 Clark and I sometimes go by Keenan Dias. 13 00:00:23.239 --> 00:00:25.399 And we're the hosts of the brand new podcast The 14 00:00:25.480 --> 00:00:28.800 Devil's Details. What comes to mind when I say Lucifer? 15 00:00:28.839 --> 00:00:29.640 How about Satan? 16 00:00:29.719 --> 00:00:32.240 What about just the Devil? How did the big bad 17 00:00:32.280 --> 00:00:34.600 of the Western world end up with so many faces? 18 00:00:34.840 --> 00:00:37.679 Join us as we dig up, decipher, and deconstruct the 19 00:00:37.679 --> 00:00:39.320 Devil's many forms throughout history. 20 00:00:39.399 --> 00:00:41.960 Take a guided tour with Dante through the Nine Circles 21 00:00:41.960 --> 00:00:42.399 of Hell. 22 00:00:42.439 --> 00:00:45.840 Or revisit Satan's angsty bad boy years in Paradise Loss. 23 00:00:46.000 --> 00:00:48.880 Learn the ins and outs of a Faustian contract. 24 00:00:48.479 --> 00:00:50.039 Easier than a ten ninety nine, but with a hell 25 00:00:50.079 --> 00:00:51.359 of a lot more fine, Prince. 26 00:00:51.119 --> 00:00:54.000 Slither on over to the Devil's Details on True Story 27 00:00:54.079 --> 00:00:56.960 FM and join us in the Diabolic discussion. 28 00:00:56.560 --> 00:00:59.119 Love and His is Wah didn't al Pacino play him 29 00:00:59.119 --> 00:00:59.439 in a movie? 30 00:00:59.560 --> 00:00:59.679 Sure? 31 00:00:59.679 --> 00:01:00.000 There wasn't. 32 00:01:00.079 --> 00:01:01.799 Robert didn't. 33 00:01:01.880 --> 00:01:02.719 That was Elizabeth. 34 00:01:03.000 --> 00:01:04.040 He go down to Georgia and. 35 00:01:04.120 --> 00:01:10.560 Some Hey, hey, apes, Hey, you see that snickers over there? 36 00:01:11.280 --> 00:01:12.159 No one's looking. 37 00:01:12.560 --> 00:01:14.400 You should just take it. 38 00:01:15.200 --> 00:01:19.719 No, don't listen to him, my son, that would be stealing. 39 00:01:20.040 --> 00:01:21.480 And stealing is a. 40 00:01:21.359 --> 00:01:25.799 Sin, Sinchman, It's a faking snick as may you deserve 41 00:01:25.840 --> 00:01:28.640 to have it. Sinning really satisfies you to. 42 00:01:28.760 --> 00:01:29.920 Repent, my child. 43 00:01:30.319 --> 00:01:34.319 Virtue is the only real snack with saving for that 44 00:01:34.400 --> 00:01:38.439 candy body is merely a gateway to nukeet dumbation. 45 00:01:42.120 --> 00:01:43.920 Has this ever happened to you? 46 00:01:44.079 --> 00:01:46.239 Listening to the devil on one shoulder and an angel 47 00:01:46.280 --> 00:01:48.040 on the other, and you're not sure what to think? 48 00:01:48.280 --> 00:01:50.840 Then we're here to help. I'm Pete Wright. 49 00:01:50.879 --> 00:01:52.879 And I'm Tommy mess The third and this season on 50 00:01:53.000 --> 00:01:55.959 All the Feelings, we're examining the seven deadly. 51 00:01:55.680 --> 00:01:58.400 Sins, you note, the fun ones. 52 00:01:58.480 --> 00:02:00.760 And the seven heavenly virtue, which. 53 00:02:00.599 --> 00:02:04.400 Are also a thing through personal stories historical oddities and 54 00:02:04.519 --> 00:02:06.879 way too much embarrassment. We take you on a thrilling 55 00:02:06.959 --> 00:02:09.400 journey through all the goods and the bads you hear 56 00:02:09.439 --> 00:02:11.000 about in church, but. 57 00:02:11.159 --> 00:02:14.039 Without all that pesky church stuff. So come join us 58 00:02:14.039 --> 00:02:16.840 for All the Feelings Season nine, a sometimes funny podcast 59 00:02:16.879 --> 00:02:20.280 about being human, All the sins, all the virtues. 60 00:02:20.000 --> 00:02:22.560 All in one place. Go to All the Feelings dot 61 00:02:22.599 --> 00:02:25.199 fun to learn more or subscribe to All the Feelings 62 00:02:25.439 --> 00:02:27.120 wherever you get your podcasts. 63 00:02:27.840 --> 00:02:42.319 Okay over, Hello, and welcome to this episode of Superhero Ethics. 64 00:02:42.719 --> 00:02:44.319 Today we're going to be talking about a topic that 65 00:02:44.400 --> 00:02:47.759 is inspired by the recent TV show and Or Star 66 00:02:47.800 --> 00:02:50.000 Wars and Or, so there will be some spoilers for that, 67 00:02:50.400 --> 00:02:52.080 but that also has relevance to a lot of the 68 00:02:52.120 --> 00:02:54.439 other properties we discussed, and frankly to our own world, 69 00:02:54.479 --> 00:02:58.159 which is, namely, how do we understand power and authority 70 00:02:58.479 --> 00:03:01.439 under fascism and how do we judge the different individuals 71 00:03:01.439 --> 00:03:03.919 who are part of that. Looking primarily at the character 72 00:03:04.000 --> 00:03:06.000 of Cyril, but also looking at a number of others 73 00:03:06.240 --> 00:03:09.520 from and Or season two and season one and some 74 00:03:09.599 --> 00:03:12.719 other properties as well, and let me kind of just 75 00:03:12.759 --> 00:03:14.800 start by framing a couple of things. First of all, 76 00:03:15.759 --> 00:03:17.560 I think one of the problems with the way a 77 00:03:17.560 --> 00:03:20.639 lot of this gets discussed online is we've gotten to 78 00:03:20.680 --> 00:03:24.759 a point where fascism and authoritarianism are pretty much mixed 79 00:03:24.840 --> 00:03:27.840 up as one and the same thing. And we're not 80 00:03:27.879 --> 00:03:30.400 going to go deep into the details here, but I 81 00:03:30.439 --> 00:03:32.360 do think we're and a lot of what we say, 82 00:03:32.400 --> 00:03:35.360 I think is going to apply to general authoritarianism as well. 83 00:03:36.120 --> 00:03:38.879 But one of the elements of fascism is a strong 84 00:03:39.080 --> 00:03:42.280 individual leader around whom there's often a kind of cultive 85 00:03:42.280 --> 00:03:45.080 personality of some sort or a reverence for that one 86 00:03:45.240 --> 00:03:48.840 true leader that is often, but not always found in authoritarianism, 87 00:03:48.879 --> 00:03:50.280 and that's gonna be a big element of what we're 88 00:03:50.319 --> 00:03:52.840 talking about today. So one to kind of just, you know, 89 00:03:53.280 --> 00:03:55.319 make that distinction, because I do think that those terms, 90 00:03:55.360 --> 00:03:58.479 as well as Nazism are often all rolled up as 91 00:03:58.479 --> 00:04:00.400 the same term, and I think there are three distinctly 92 00:04:00.479 --> 00:04:04.280 different things. Fascism is a kind of authoritarianism, and Nazism 93 00:04:04.319 --> 00:04:09.240 is kind of fascism, but et cetera. With that, though, 94 00:04:09.360 --> 00:04:11.319 let's now kind of talk about the actual issues where 95 00:04:11.360 --> 00:04:14.280 we're gonna be jumping into REGGI can you give us 96 00:04:14.360 --> 00:04:17.079 kind of just a quick summary of the journey that 97 00:04:17.160 --> 00:04:19.680 Cyril goes through. For for people who haven't watched and 98 00:04:19.839 --> 00:04:21.519 or and are not going to or are not going 99 00:04:21.560 --> 00:04:23.600 to for a while, I do recommend you do so. 100 00:04:23.680 --> 00:04:25.279 And if you can't, hit stop. Even if you don't 101 00:04:25.319 --> 00:04:26.639 like Star Wars at all, this is one of the 102 00:04:26.680 --> 00:04:30.079 most Unstar Wars like shows. It's much more like political 103 00:04:30.120 --> 00:04:33.399 drop political thriller or spy thriller, but where there laser 104 00:04:33.399 --> 00:04:36.240 bolts instead of bullets. But Reggy give us a quick 105 00:04:36.279 --> 00:04:39.720 rundown of what is Cyril's journey in this in this 106 00:04:39.759 --> 00:04:41.759 show that we're gonna be talking about. 107 00:04:42.759 --> 00:04:47.720 Yeah, So Cyril Karn is the character played by Kyle 108 00:04:47.839 --> 00:04:53.079 Soler on this show, and he begins the show as 109 00:04:53.160 --> 00:04:57.519 a corporate security officer inspector. 110 00:04:58.279 --> 00:04:58.879 He's a cop. 111 00:05:01.040 --> 00:05:04.879 He's kind of like sub imperial. He's not directly tied 112 00:05:05.120 --> 00:05:10.199 to the empire, but this corporation pre more is kind 113 00:05:10.199 --> 00:05:14.639 of subservient to the Empire, and they in the beginning 114 00:05:14.680 --> 00:05:16.839 they get to do their own thing, but there's this 115 00:05:16.879 --> 00:05:19.800 worry that imperial authority will come in and take over 116 00:05:19.879 --> 00:05:22.600 at some point, which they do, and so he begins 117 00:05:22.639 --> 00:05:27.240 this journey as a cop who is investigating the murder 118 00:05:27.279 --> 00:05:31.800 of two fellow security officers on a planet by the 119 00:05:31.839 --> 00:05:34.759 main character of the show, Cassie and Or, and he 120 00:05:34.839 --> 00:05:37.560 goes and he figures out that and Or is the 121 00:05:38.079 --> 00:05:42.560 suspect in this case and goes to arrest him and 122 00:05:42.639 --> 00:05:46.920 basically causes an incident on and Or's home planet. Feryx 123 00:05:48.319 --> 00:05:52.639 is disarmed by and Or and is at the time 124 00:05:53.279 --> 00:05:58.120 not quite yet compatriots Luth and Rail held at gunpoint, 125 00:05:58.160 --> 00:06:02.560 disarmed and then they escape, and this starts his obsession 126 00:06:03.040 --> 00:06:05.600 with and Or. He loses his job over this incident 127 00:06:05.600 --> 00:06:08.920 because it's a whole screw up, right, and that also 128 00:06:09.040 --> 00:06:11.800 fuels him too, is like he I lost my job 129 00:06:11.839 --> 00:06:14.199 because of him, Like he murdered two people and got away, 130 00:06:15.120 --> 00:06:18.639 And even though he gets a different job back on Coruscant, 131 00:06:18.759 --> 00:06:20.439 he's constantly obsessed. 132 00:06:20.079 --> 00:06:20.600 With and Or. 133 00:06:20.959 --> 00:06:24.439 When he gets news that and Or's mothers die, he's like, aha, like, 134 00:06:24.480 --> 00:06:25.759 I'm gonna come for the funeral. 135 00:06:25.800 --> 00:06:28.000 He's gonna show up. I'm going to get him. 136 00:06:28.240 --> 00:06:30.680 And that's that's how season one ends, and in season 137 00:06:30.720 --> 00:06:34.879 two at this point, now he is in a romantic 138 00:06:34.920 --> 00:06:40.920 relationship with dead Ramiro, who is the isb supervisor. 139 00:06:41.040 --> 00:06:44.600 Is the Imperial Security Bureau, Yes CIA, the KGB of 140 00:06:44.680 --> 00:06:47.360 the of the Galactic Empire. 141 00:06:47.639 --> 00:06:52.720 And through her, through her operation on a plant called Gorman, 142 00:06:53.399 --> 00:06:58.319 he becomes a spy for the Empire, albeit a very 143 00:06:58.360 --> 00:07:02.319 amateurish one, but for him, like someone who was a 144 00:07:02.360 --> 00:07:06.199 cop and is always kind of aspired to this lifestyle 145 00:07:06.240 --> 00:07:07.959 and this type of job, like he loves. He's like, 146 00:07:08.000 --> 00:07:10.839 I get to be a spy. At one point, when 147 00:07:10.839 --> 00:07:13.839 he meets Dedra's boss, he says, this is the best 148 00:07:13.920 --> 00:07:14.759 day of my life. 149 00:07:15.360 --> 00:07:17.240 And it's I laughed. 150 00:07:17.319 --> 00:07:19.360 It was kind of funny and a little sad to me, 151 00:07:20.240 --> 00:07:22.000 and I think we're going to talk about. 152 00:07:21.800 --> 00:07:23.040 This very much. 153 00:07:23.639 --> 00:07:29.079 And this is a huge spoiler for a thing that 154 00:07:29.160 --> 00:07:32.360 happens in season two. So again, like if you are 155 00:07:32.480 --> 00:07:34.680 interested in the show and you haven't caught up yet 156 00:07:35.040 --> 00:07:38.399 at this point, you might want to pause the podcast 157 00:07:38.800 --> 00:07:41.560 and go watch the show because it's amazing. So I'm 158 00:07:41.560 --> 00:07:43.560 going to get to the spoiler now, which is that 159 00:07:45.079 --> 00:07:51.759 Cyril basically participates in an Imperial operation to instigate a 160 00:07:51.879 --> 00:07:56.120 riot on Gorman, which leads to a massacre in a 161 00:07:56.199 --> 00:07:59.560 plaza and ultimately what they call the Gorman Massacre or 162 00:07:59.600 --> 00:08:05.199 gormant genocide. Right, And in this moment when he realizes 163 00:08:05.279 --> 00:08:10.360 that his girlfriend Dedra has been lying to him about 164 00:08:10.360 --> 00:08:12.639 what's going what's been going on, and what his role 165 00:08:12.720 --> 00:08:16.720 in this whole thing is, he goes into shock right 166 00:08:17.240 --> 00:08:20.439 and and does some things that we will also talk about, 167 00:08:20.519 --> 00:08:26.720 and he it's it's hard to tell what he's thinking, right, Like, 168 00:08:26.800 --> 00:08:30.920 we don't get any dialogue or internal monologue, but he 169 00:08:30.959 --> 00:08:34.159 walks out of Dedra's office in shock, walks out into 170 00:08:34.200 --> 00:08:38.799 the plaza where the massacre begins, and just like stands 171 00:08:38.840 --> 00:08:42.960 there shell shocked until he sees the object of his 172 00:08:43.039 --> 00:08:47.519 obsession over two seasons, Cassie and Or, and he snaps 173 00:08:47.559 --> 00:08:50.159 out of it, and he goes and gets in a 174 00:08:50.200 --> 00:08:55.679 fistfight with him, and shortly after that he is he 175 00:08:55.759 --> 00:08:59.120 is killed, and that's his journey. 176 00:08:59.440 --> 00:09:00.799 I think it's a great summ reached. A couple of 177 00:09:00.879 --> 00:09:02.399 quick things I want to fill in. First of all, 178 00:09:02.440 --> 00:09:05.960 what you said before about the these sort of security forces. 179 00:09:06.240 --> 00:09:08.120 A book that I'm reading right now that's can perform 180 00:09:08.159 --> 00:09:10.360 a lot of these conversations, I think is one I 181 00:09:10.440 --> 00:09:13.639 definitely recommend people reading, especially if you like history, is 182 00:09:13.639 --> 00:09:16.639 a book called The Rise and fall of the Galactic Empire. 183 00:09:16.879 --> 00:09:18.120 Oh yeah, yeah, and it read that. 184 00:09:18.519 --> 00:09:21.799 Yeah, it's written as though it is a history book 185 00:09:22.039 --> 00:09:26.200 written by people in the Star Wars universe shortly after 186 00:09:26.279 --> 00:09:29.039 the events of the sequel trilogy, looking back on the 187 00:09:29.039 --> 00:09:33.080 Galactic Empire. And there's one paragraph that talks about exactly this, 188 00:09:33.240 --> 00:09:37.320 and it talks about how there are these security groups 189 00:09:37.399 --> 00:09:39.639 and that they are interested in keeping up the law. 190 00:09:39.679 --> 00:09:40.840 But the biggest one of the things that are also 191 00:09:40.960 --> 00:09:44.799 very interested in is avoiding the Empire getting more involved. 192 00:09:46.320 --> 00:09:49.559 And it starts here. Imperial training may have prepared stormtroopers 193 00:09:49.559 --> 00:09:51.559 for many things, but they're a little more than a 194 00:09:51.600 --> 00:09:55.519 blunt instrument designed for subjugation rather than a more nuanced 195 00:09:55.519 --> 00:09:58.519 governing force. The fear of having them deployed to a 196 00:09:58.600 --> 00:10:02.200 system tipping it from being governed into being occupied, which 197 00:10:02.200 --> 00:10:05.120 thinks are really great sentence, could cool even the hottest 198 00:10:05.120 --> 00:10:07.919 tempers among those who found themselves on the wrong side 199 00:10:08.200 --> 00:10:12.320 end of shifting imperial laws. Furthermore, the security forces themselves 200 00:10:12.320 --> 00:10:15.799 were equally keen to avoid active imperial scrutiny or involvement 201 00:10:15.799 --> 00:10:18.080 in their affairs. Because this goes on, it would cut 202 00:10:18.080 --> 00:10:21.080 their budgets and their power and that's exactly why Steril 203 00:10:21.120 --> 00:10:24.000 gets into trouble because and I think it reveals so 204 00:10:24.120 --> 00:10:27.080 much about his character. And here's where I think becomes 205 00:10:27.080 --> 00:10:31.679 a really important thing to understand about fascism. He is 206 00:10:31.720 --> 00:10:35.480 the person. What he wants is law and order. He 207 00:10:35.639 --> 00:10:41.080 truly believes that strict authoritarian government will make everybody safer, 208 00:10:41.399 --> 00:10:45.679 will make things better. And because what he understands is 209 00:10:45.720 --> 00:10:48.080 that two police officers, two of the people kind of 210 00:10:48.159 --> 00:10:51.440 under his watch, were killed by this murderer Cassie and 211 00:10:51.440 --> 00:10:54.519 Andor he doesn't want to listen to what his boss 212 00:10:54.559 --> 00:10:56.440 tries to. His boss figures the whole thing out like 213 00:10:56.480 --> 00:10:59.080 thirty seconds, you know, and predicts like these guys were 214 00:10:59.080 --> 00:11:02.679 probably corrupt, probably shaking down Cassian. Cyril doesn't want to 215 00:11:02.679 --> 00:11:05.960 hear any of that. He just sees a man killed 216 00:11:06.000 --> 00:11:10.080 two people, and we've got to track down that man. 217 00:11:09.840 --> 00:11:12.919 And here's the lace as I understand it, And Riki 218 00:11:12.960 --> 00:11:14.679 please jump in if you see it differently. I think 219 00:11:14.720 --> 00:11:18.320 what his story is one of he has believed the 220 00:11:18.440 --> 00:11:22.440 lie that this fascist authoritarian government will bring law and 221 00:11:22.600 --> 00:11:26.320 order and will make everything right. And what he understands 222 00:11:26.320 --> 00:11:30.360 that's happening in Gorman is that the Empire is making 223 00:11:30.440 --> 00:11:36.240 completely rational demands of a planet under its control, and 224 00:11:36.279 --> 00:11:38.679 the people are being terrorists and they're fighting back in 225 00:11:38.720 --> 00:11:41.240 bad ways and that's not okay, and so they have 226 00:11:41.320 --> 00:11:44.399 to be repressed. And what he comes to understand is 227 00:11:44.440 --> 00:11:47.720 that no, actually, the Empire has set all this up 228 00:11:47.720 --> 00:11:49.960 because they want to destroy the people of Gorman, because 229 00:11:49.960 --> 00:11:52.840 they want to basically completely strip mind the planet for 230 00:11:52.879 --> 00:11:56.320 its minerals in ways that would destroy it as a place, 231 00:11:56.360 --> 00:11:58.080 and all the people couldn't live there to begin with. 232 00:11:58.919 --> 00:12:03.120 And so for him, that's the moment of recognizing this 233 00:12:03.200 --> 00:12:07.279 empire is not actually ending corruption. They're not draining the swamp. 234 00:12:07.399 --> 00:12:10.000 They are the swamp. They are just as corrupt as 235 00:12:10.000 --> 00:12:14.759 anything else. And for me, at least, I see this 236 00:12:14.840 --> 00:12:17.080 very much as kind of the Javert story from Le Miz. 237 00:12:18.080 --> 00:12:21.600 Why he goes after it is for him, it's that 238 00:12:21.679 --> 00:12:24.200 moment where everything you've believed in has been shattered, all 239 00:12:24.200 --> 00:12:27.639 the things you because he has a very rigid view 240 00:12:27.639 --> 00:12:30.480 of the world, and rigid world views are often very 241 00:12:30.480 --> 00:12:33.960 brittle and they can break, and when it breaks, that's 242 00:12:33.960 --> 00:12:36.080 why he goes after Cassian, because that's kind of that, 243 00:12:36.279 --> 00:12:39.399 as you said, that's the very beginning of this is 244 00:12:39.440 --> 00:12:44.360 a murderer in his mind that he can stop, and yeah, 245 00:12:44.399 --> 00:12:46.440 it places him in this really interesting position where I 246 00:12:46.480 --> 00:12:48.799 think we are. And part of this is because that actor, 247 00:12:48.799 --> 00:12:51.879 who is just phenomenal, we feel some sympathy for him 248 00:12:51.879 --> 00:12:54.440 in that moment of like his world has collapsed every 249 00:12:54.519 --> 00:12:57.879 he's realized the lie he's told and he's acting out 250 00:12:57.919 --> 00:12:59.879 based on that, but we accept to do it. Is 251 00:13:00.279 --> 00:13:04.240 he tries to strangle his girlfriend, his Dedra who's betrayed him, 252 00:13:04.279 --> 00:13:05.799 and then he goes after the man who thinks he's 253 00:13:05.799 --> 00:13:07.440 a murderer and is e mentually put down. 254 00:13:09.360 --> 00:13:10.960 Yeah, a lot of good points there. 255 00:13:11.480 --> 00:13:11.879 Definitely. 256 00:13:11.960 --> 00:13:14.399 The law, like the Syih believes in law and order 257 00:13:14.440 --> 00:13:18.159 thing is one thing that comes up constantly discussion. And 258 00:13:18.240 --> 00:13:21.240 the most important thing to me about that phrase law 259 00:13:21.279 --> 00:13:25.320 and order is that it leaves out the word justice, 260 00:13:25.519 --> 00:13:29.559 which often you combine ideas of justice and law together. 261 00:13:30.399 --> 00:13:35.159 And I think that's so important because the Empire is 262 00:13:35.240 --> 00:13:38.240 the law because they literally write the laws and they 263 00:13:38.399 --> 00:13:42.960 enforce them, they enforce order, but they are deeply unjust 264 00:13:43.639 --> 00:13:47.120 as an entity, right, I mean, that's just I don't 265 00:13:47.159 --> 00:13:53.399 think we can argue that. And because of that there's 266 00:13:53.440 --> 00:14:01.440 this point that if you are enforcing unjust law, then 267 00:14:01.799 --> 00:14:04.960 you're that's not good, right, like we would say evil 268 00:14:05.080 --> 00:14:07.879 in this case, in the case of the empire, And 269 00:14:07.919 --> 00:14:11.320 you can draw various lines of morality, but when it 270 00:14:11.360 --> 00:14:14.480 comes down to it, like just unjust laws shouldn't be enforced. 271 00:14:14.519 --> 00:14:17.480 And that's like this question of like phrases like I 272 00:14:17.559 --> 00:14:20.639 was only following orders, right, Like orders are laws within 273 00:14:20.720 --> 00:14:22.039 like a military structure. 274 00:14:22.399 --> 00:14:23.679 Right, So if you're. 275 00:14:23.559 --> 00:14:26.240 Following a law, like what's wrong, Well, the orders, the 276 00:14:26.320 --> 00:14:29.120 laws you're given are unjust, and that's a problem, and 277 00:14:29.159 --> 00:14:32.799 you need to center on a different scale of morality 278 00:14:33.519 --> 00:14:36.279 and make decisions based on that if the law is unjust. 279 00:14:37.200 --> 00:14:38.639 And I think such a big part of there is 280 00:14:38.639 --> 00:14:41.440 that it is both like a law can be unjust 281 00:14:41.519 --> 00:14:44.240 and also a law can be unjustly applied. And I 282 00:14:44.240 --> 00:14:45.720 think that's a lot of what he goes through is 283 00:14:45.759 --> 00:14:48.080 that I think he comes with the assumption that I 284 00:14:48.080 --> 00:14:49.960 think a lot of times you hear from people who 285 00:14:50.039 --> 00:14:53.039 want law and order, is there what they want is 286 00:14:53.159 --> 00:14:56.960 impartial law order. They want like here's the law. If 287 00:14:57.000 --> 00:14:59.679 you follow it, you're you're okay. If you don't, you're 288 00:14:59.759 --> 00:15:02.240 not and it's easy to enforce. You know that, it 289 00:15:02.240 --> 00:15:04.559 should be very easy to say, we don't need all 290 00:15:04.600 --> 00:15:06.919 these courts, we don't need all this due process, because 291 00:15:06.919 --> 00:15:09.159 it's just if you follow the law, you're good. If 292 00:15:09.159 --> 00:15:12.720 you don't, you're bad. And we don't get as much 293 00:15:12.759 --> 00:15:15.279 of Cyril's backstory as we got with some other characters, 294 00:15:15.279 --> 00:15:17.519 for example, some of the characters in the novel Lost 295 00:15:17.519 --> 00:15:19.840 Stars that we love to talk about. It is another 296 00:15:19.840 --> 00:15:22.679 phenomenal piece of Star Wars media. But in that and 297 00:15:22.720 --> 00:15:24.120 in a lot of other things, and also in this 298 00:15:24.120 --> 00:15:26.559 book the history of the Empire that we're talking about, 299 00:15:27.000 --> 00:15:28.759 one of the things that's talked about a lot is 300 00:15:28.759 --> 00:15:31.360 that there was chaos after the Clone Wars, that things 301 00:15:31.399 --> 00:15:34.559 were crazy, that there was no law and order. And 302 00:15:35.000 --> 00:15:39.159 this is very much a hallmark of how authoritarianism, especially fascism, 303 00:15:39.200 --> 00:15:43.720 can take hold. It is after periods of chaos where 304 00:15:43.759 --> 00:15:46.679 there are people breaking the law throughout, there is terrible corruption, 305 00:15:46.720 --> 00:15:49.519 There is all of these things, and someone comes along 306 00:15:49.559 --> 00:15:52.039 and says, I can make it right. I can make 307 00:15:52.080 --> 00:15:54.840 sure that you are you feel safe again. I can 308 00:15:54.879 --> 00:15:57.559 make sure that you feel okay again and that you 309 00:15:57.600 --> 00:16:00.799 get your fair shot. And what I think this show 310 00:16:00.879 --> 00:16:03.039 kind of it's brilliantly is not all. Not only is 311 00:16:03.080 --> 00:16:08.159 it fascism will manipulate those fears, but they'll also create 312 00:16:08.200 --> 00:16:10.440 those fears to begin with, you know, like they will 313 00:16:11.039 --> 00:16:13.720 make people feel a lot more unsafe than they actually 314 00:16:13.759 --> 00:16:16.000 are in order to sell the lie of we will 315 00:16:16.000 --> 00:16:17.879 therefore make you safe. You know, you need to be 316 00:16:17.919 --> 00:16:22.320 really scared of this ethnic group, uh so that therefore 317 00:16:22.320 --> 00:16:24.879 this gender group, or this whatever it is, so therefore 318 00:16:24.879 --> 00:16:26.679 we can keep you safe from them. And that's something 319 00:16:26.759 --> 00:16:31.120 that like, I fully believe that Cyril has that that 320 00:16:31.360 --> 00:16:33.679 for whatever reason, we don't get that backstory, but he 321 00:16:33.799 --> 00:16:37.240 thinks we need this kind of law and order and 322 00:16:37.240 --> 00:16:40.960 and that's his you know. Anyway, I feel like he 323 00:16:41.000 --> 00:16:43.600 feels kind of like a Shakespearean tragic hero, you know, 324 00:16:43.720 --> 00:16:45.840 not that he's a hero necessarily, but that he has 325 00:16:45.879 --> 00:16:48.080 that like his story, I think, more than anything else, 326 00:16:48.200 --> 00:16:51.519 is a tragedy. We feel bad for all the people 327 00:16:51.559 --> 00:16:53.639 Macbeth killed, and there's no way in which we think 328 00:16:53.679 --> 00:16:55.679 Macbeth is going to be a good King of Scotland. 329 00:16:56.200 --> 00:16:58.799 But you know, and I hope you're not listening to 330 00:16:58.840 --> 00:17:00.399 this in a theater, forgive me. I don't have that 331 00:17:00.440 --> 00:17:03.360 word so many times, but you know, we still feel 332 00:17:03.360 --> 00:17:05.880 a tragedy about Macbeth, and I think in many ways 333 00:17:05.880 --> 00:17:11.039 that's what zero story is is it's tragic because you 334 00:17:11.079 --> 00:17:14.160 see how much harm this man has caused to all 335 00:17:14.160 --> 00:17:16.319 these others, and it does come to himself as well, 336 00:17:16.880 --> 00:17:18.519 and it's because he believed these lies. 337 00:17:20.839 --> 00:17:25.359 Yeah. You mentioned that we don't get necessarily a backstory 338 00:17:25.680 --> 00:17:28.400 on Cyril, like we certainly don't have any flashbacks of 339 00:17:28.480 --> 00:17:31.400 him growing up. But I do think that there was 340 00:17:31.559 --> 00:17:35.799 one very interesting detail that the prop department just slipped in. 341 00:17:35.839 --> 00:17:38.400 But when he comes back to his home on Corsant 342 00:17:38.880 --> 00:17:42.079 and goes back to live with his mother, in his room, 343 00:17:42.359 --> 00:17:46.440 he has several action figures that look like either Stormtroopers 344 00:17:46.599 --> 00:17:48.640 or maybe like clone trooper armor. 345 00:17:48.359 --> 00:17:49.319 Like the White arm Right. 346 00:17:50.400 --> 00:17:53.559 And it's just a small thing, like we all played 347 00:17:53.559 --> 00:17:55.799 with toys. But I do think like in this case 348 00:17:55.839 --> 00:17:58.160 they put it in intentionally to show like he played 349 00:17:58.160 --> 00:18:01.480 with these action figures of these true. Yeah, and that 350 00:18:02.559 --> 00:18:04.799 is something that we can say is you know, has 351 00:18:05.839 --> 00:18:09.559 made his character, made him who he is today, is. 352 00:18:09.559 --> 00:18:11.960 This person who believes in law and order. 353 00:18:12.440 --> 00:18:14.799 To this, I love the idea that because yeah, it's 354 00:18:14.839 --> 00:18:16.759 not just that he believes in law and order, but 355 00:18:16.960 --> 00:18:19.160 it's kind of like he has swallowed the copaganda of 356 00:18:19.240 --> 00:18:22.519 his world because he believes in the law and order 357 00:18:22.519 --> 00:18:25.039 and he believes in the fundamental goodness of the people 358 00:18:25.039 --> 00:18:27.640 who are enforcing law and order. Like, he does not 359 00:18:27.799 --> 00:18:31.480 want to listen when his boss on his first planet 360 00:18:31.839 --> 00:18:33.920 points out all the ways in which these cops that 361 00:18:35.200 --> 00:18:37.960 Cassie and killed might have actually really not been the 362 00:18:38.000 --> 00:18:39.960 good guys in this situation. He doesn't want to hear that, 363 00:18:40.519 --> 00:18:42.279 and he doesn't want to pay any attention to the 364 00:18:42.279 --> 00:18:45.240 evidence that maybe Dedra and the others in the ISB 365 00:18:45.519 --> 00:18:49.160 are not actually really as good and proper an upright 366 00:18:49.200 --> 00:18:52.200 as he wants them to be. You know, He's fully 367 00:18:52.279 --> 00:18:54.720 dedicated to these people are saying the right things, and 368 00:18:54.759 --> 00:19:00.200 so I will not believe the bad things about them. 369 00:19:00.440 --> 00:19:03.359 Yeah, And I just want to clarify, Like again, like 370 00:19:03.480 --> 00:19:07.519 many of us growing up had action figures, army figures, 371 00:19:07.559 --> 00:19:09.759 g I, Joe, that type of thing. And I'm not 372 00:19:09.799 --> 00:19:11.599 saying like if you have them as a kid, you 373 00:19:11.680 --> 00:19:15.839 turn into this type of person, but like there's intentionality 374 00:19:15.960 --> 00:19:20.400 to television programs, and especially in this case, he is 375 00:19:20.400 --> 00:19:23.079 an he is still he is an adult. He still 376 00:19:23.119 --> 00:19:25.480 has these items and when he comes home like he 377 00:19:25.599 --> 00:19:28.960 I think he specifically like holds one and looks at it, right, 378 00:19:29.000 --> 00:19:31.720 And to me, that is the people writing this thing, 379 00:19:31.799 --> 00:19:35.400 Like this is kind of what he still aspires to, right, 380 00:19:35.480 --> 00:19:37.960 Like he's he's having these memories and it's like, ah, 381 00:19:38.039 --> 00:19:39.799 like I lost my cop job. 382 00:19:40.279 --> 00:19:44.319 Right yeah, And he eventually gets he gets a position 383 00:19:44.519 --> 00:19:47.480 in just kind of the imperial bureaucracy in the Department 384 00:19:47.519 --> 00:19:48.240 of Standards. 385 00:19:48.640 --> 00:19:50.599 Yeah, like fuel standards. 386 00:19:52.079 --> 00:19:55.599 They're investigators, but somewhat they're also just like propagating these standards, 387 00:19:56.119 --> 00:19:58.039 and he immediately wants to do it in a police 388 00:19:58.119 --> 00:19:58.400 like way. 389 00:19:58.440 --> 00:20:00.519 He wants to Oh yeah, he's a book keeper. But 390 00:20:01.440 --> 00:20:03.720 later on we see him bragging about how he caught 391 00:20:03.720 --> 00:20:05.240 people stealing from the empire. 392 00:20:05.720 --> 00:20:11.000 Yep, exactly. So let's let's broaden the lens a little bit. 393 00:20:11.079 --> 00:20:13.880 Why does someone like Cyril exist in this system? And 394 00:20:13.920 --> 00:20:15.640 what what do you think we can learn from history 395 00:20:15.680 --> 00:20:18.279 and some the stories of the other individuals we meet 396 00:20:19.279 --> 00:20:21.039 through the show and through other things about the way 397 00:20:21.079 --> 00:20:22.359 power works under the Empire. 398 00:20:24.160 --> 00:20:27.400 Well, there's a there's a through line of his character 399 00:20:27.480 --> 00:20:29.599 I still want to talk a little bit about Cyril, 400 00:20:29.599 --> 00:20:33.000 but start to veer into other places because you you 401 00:20:33.119 --> 00:20:38.960