WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.560 --> 00:00:07.759 It's Nightside with Dan Ray on WBZ, Boston's new radio. 2 00:00:07.160 --> 00:00:09.080 And welcome back Boy, Do we have a story for 3 00:00:09.119 --> 00:00:12.640 you here on WBC's Nightside. Killer Lies Chasing a true 4 00:00:12.720 --> 00:00:17.039 crime con Man from National Geographic and also Hulu. It's 5 00:00:17.039 --> 00:00:19.480 streaming on Hulu right now. I highly recommend it. It 6 00:00:19.519 --> 00:00:22.679 is a three part series. It is riveting, it's well told, 7 00:00:22.679 --> 00:00:26.039 it's well produced, and it's just an unbelievable story. And 8 00:00:26.160 --> 00:00:30.000 the director of this film joining us right now, Ben Selko. Ben, 9 00:00:30.120 --> 00:00:34.359 Welcome to Nightside. I've seen a lot of stuff, Ben 10 00:00:34.399 --> 00:00:37.200 in my life, but this one's a doozy because not 11 00:00:37.240 --> 00:00:40.799 only do you have serial killers and they're extremely bad people, 12 00:00:41.320 --> 00:00:45.439 but then you have another dude that is supposedly doing 13 00:00:45.479 --> 00:00:46.600 something good. 14 00:00:47.240 --> 00:00:50.920 And he's a liar. I mean, have you have you 15 00:00:51.039 --> 00:00:52.920 ever seen anything like this before? 16 00:00:54.920 --> 00:00:55.000 You know? 17 00:00:55.200 --> 00:00:58.920 I mean yes, I think you can look around in 18 00:01:00.119 --> 00:01:02.920 the American political sphere in all corners and find this 19 00:01:03.039 --> 00:01:08.200 profile character pretty readily. But you're right, I mean this, 20 00:01:08.400 --> 00:01:11.920 You've got, you know, a story, you know, full of 21 00:01:12.159 --> 00:01:14.640 serial killers, and at the heart of it is someone 22 00:01:14.680 --> 00:01:18.280 who is a serial liar, right, who trade trades and 23 00:01:18.359 --> 00:01:22.799 betrayal and you know, in our story that becomes tanam 24 00:01:22.799 --> 00:01:25.439 out and the most important kind of crime that is, 25 00:01:26.400 --> 00:01:30.799 you know, expressed over and over again, repeatedly, and you 26 00:01:30.840 --> 00:01:33.920 know it's something that was really wild and really wild 27 00:01:33.959 --> 00:01:34.959 to try to untangle. 28 00:01:35.640 --> 00:01:37.719 You know, I'm sure it was. I mean, you must have. 29 00:01:38.599 --> 00:01:40.680 We'll get into how you pull this all together, but 30 00:01:41.680 --> 00:01:44.640 just tell us how, you know, a quick tiase of 31 00:01:44.680 --> 00:01:47.480 what the series is about, and you know how you 32 00:01:47.599 --> 00:01:49.959 came about to develop. 33 00:01:49.599 --> 00:01:55.040 This so kill Lives Chasing a true Trime true crime 34 00:01:55.200 --> 00:01:59.799 com man is sourced from a twenty twenty two article 35 00:02:00.040 --> 00:02:03.560 by Lauren Collins in The New Yorker and that entitled 36 00:02:03.560 --> 00:02:07.319 that article originally was Murdered, he wrote, and it's about 37 00:02:07.359 --> 00:02:11.759 Stefan bourg Wan, who is a French serial killer expert 38 00:02:12.479 --> 00:02:16.120 who rose to a huge amount of prominence, built a 39 00:02:16.159 --> 00:02:18.840 huge following, you know, nationally in France and you know, 40 00:02:18.879 --> 00:02:22.680 within the true crime world, and you know, for forty 41 00:02:22.759 --> 00:02:24.919 years was really kind of the man on top, you know, 42 00:02:24.960 --> 00:02:29.520 as the go to person around talking about serial killers, 43 00:02:29.560 --> 00:02:32.080 and anytime there's a you know, a national event or 44 00:02:32.120 --> 00:02:34.800 international event, he would be called by radio, which television 45 00:02:34.840 --> 00:02:39.840 to appear. Was a prolific writer and you know, raised 46 00:02:39.879 --> 00:02:42.919 and kept elevating his profile as you know, an expert 47 00:02:42.960 --> 00:02:47.520 on killers, morphing into a profiler, you know, depending on 48 00:02:47.560 --> 00:02:51.360 the you know, the the venue, that forum, the introduction 49 00:02:51.479 --> 00:02:53.400 by the said host that you know, he kind of 50 00:02:53.759 --> 00:02:56.080 title and statue whood, it would elevate and amplify and 51 00:02:56.080 --> 00:02:59.280 grow every time. And so you know, he kind of 52 00:02:59.439 --> 00:03:02.319 was the top king of this kingdom in France for 53 00:03:02.360 --> 00:03:06.639 a very long time until about twenty nineteen, twenty twenty, 54 00:03:07.039 --> 00:03:09.639 when some of his true crime fans, some of his 55 00:03:10.159 --> 00:03:13.840 ardent fans, started tugging on the strings of his story 56 00:03:13.879 --> 00:03:17.039 a little bit, and you know, the needless to say, 57 00:03:17.039 --> 00:03:23.159 the sweater started to come undone and our story details 58 00:03:23.159 --> 00:03:25.479 the story that you know, Lauren Collins wrote The New Yorker, 59 00:03:25.520 --> 00:03:29.960 but also advances the investigation, goes deeper, goes further, you know, 60 00:03:30.000 --> 00:03:32.080 it starts all the way back in the seventies and 61 00:03:32.120 --> 00:03:36.120 brings this story you know, through Lauren's reporting and advances 62 00:03:36.159 --> 00:03:38.960 the investigation you know, until you know, you know, deep 63 00:03:39.000 --> 00:03:41.520 into twenty twenty three, in twenty twenty four, so it 64 00:03:42.280 --> 00:03:45.360 becomes very current and catches up with itself. So it's 65 00:03:45.360 --> 00:03:47.520 it's not as a retail of that New Yorker article, 66 00:03:47.560 --> 00:03:50.080 but in advances the investigation as well. Well. 67 00:03:50.080 --> 00:03:53.000 It's a terrific piece because you bring in personalities and 68 00:03:53.080 --> 00:03:55.319 of course and at the end and I don't want 69 00:03:55.319 --> 00:03:56.759 to give too much away because I want people to 70 00:03:56.800 --> 00:03:59.639 watch it, then you address the man himself. Are going 71 00:03:59.719 --> 00:04:03.000 in three Uh so there is definitely some conclusion, and 72 00:04:03.039 --> 00:04:04.960 I can tell you're in the room and you address 73 00:04:05.039 --> 00:04:08.120 him head on, and uh, it's just I mean, the 74 00:04:08.159 --> 00:04:11.960 guy has absolutely no shape. So he's talking to these 75 00:04:12.000 --> 00:04:15.879 serial killers. And of course there are families who their 76 00:04:15.879 --> 00:04:20.399 lives have been damaged and just destroyed by these serial killers. 77 00:04:20.399 --> 00:04:23.040 And then this guy starts to profit off it and 78 00:04:23.079 --> 00:04:28.120 become a celebrity with it. And just how sick is 79 00:04:28.160 --> 00:04:31.839 he because his whole story was built on lies. How 80 00:04:31.879 --> 00:04:34.600 he became the serial killer expert, and he was even 81 00:04:34.639 --> 00:04:38.319 plagiarizing people. I mean, he was stealing information from other people. 82 00:04:38.439 --> 00:04:39.759 So how sick is this guy? 83 00:04:41.439 --> 00:04:43.040 You know? I mean I think that's you know, one 84 00:04:43.079 --> 00:04:45.199 of the things we were trying to navigate is really 85 00:04:45.240 --> 00:04:49.519 trying to, you know, objectively look at him as you know, 86 00:04:49.680 --> 00:04:51.480 you know, what is this what is this pre level 87 00:04:51.519 --> 00:04:55.199 of premeditation, calculation. Is he an evil mastermind or is 88 00:04:55.240 --> 00:05:00.160 this something compulsive and pathological and involuntari a most and 89 00:05:00.199 --> 00:05:03.519 so uh that's that becomes part of the investigation also, 90 00:05:03.600 --> 00:05:06.160 you know, part of the participation of the audience. We're 91 00:05:06.160 --> 00:05:09.240 asking of them to say, Hey, this got mister McGoo 92 00:05:09.279 --> 00:05:12.959 who kind of fell into the secret eyes and grew 93 00:05:13.040 --> 00:05:15.360 them and exploded them and and and caught on that 94 00:05:15.560 --> 00:05:17.680 it's also being working, you know, or is he you know, 95 00:05:17.759 --> 00:05:20.920 closer to Hannibal Lecter to borrow you know, a fictional 96 00:05:21.000 --> 00:05:23.920 character in the zeitgeist again, you know where you know 97 00:05:24.000 --> 00:05:29.639 someone who is you know, a genius, you know, mad genius, evil, calculated, premeditated, 98 00:05:29.800 --> 00:05:33.399 you know, person designing uh this this web of lies 99 00:05:33.519 --> 00:05:37.120 to you know, to create self aggrandizement and build this 100 00:05:37.199 --> 00:05:39.600 career on. So I you know, that question is really 101 00:05:39.879 --> 00:05:41.959 at the core of all of this. And you know 102 00:05:42.000 --> 00:05:45.879 something we asked the audience to help navigate because you know, 103 00:05:46.319 --> 00:05:48.240 you have a very strong reaction to him, as many 104 00:05:48.279 --> 00:05:50.079 people do when they watch. And I think that's part 105 00:05:50.160 --> 00:05:52.759 of you know, the visitation to the audience is that, hey, 106 00:05:53.079 --> 00:05:55.399 you know you come play investigator as well. You know, 107 00:05:55.439 --> 00:05:57.360 you could on your you know, your lie, detect your 108 00:05:57.360 --> 00:06:00.480 test you're put on your antenna and see if you 109 00:06:00.519 --> 00:06:03.399 can catch this guy in a lie? Or is this 110 00:06:03.519 --> 00:06:05.399 or is this you know, something bred from a colonel 111 00:06:05.399 --> 00:06:09.560 of truth. So the series is really smart, it's fun, 112 00:06:09.680 --> 00:06:12.600 it's fast moving, but it's also participatory. So it asks 113 00:06:13.040 --> 00:06:15.319 a lot of the viewers to say, hey, you know, like, 114 00:06:15.680 --> 00:06:17.600 you know, can you kind of can you solve the 115 00:06:17.639 --> 00:06:19.680 crime yourself? And I think that's you know, that's also 116 00:06:19.680 --> 00:06:23.680 a hallmark of good crime storytelling is that it's not 117 00:06:23.800 --> 00:06:26.240 passive watching. It's you know, it's something that's drivening and 118 00:06:26.480 --> 00:06:28.720 you know, asking the audience to you know, to put 119 00:06:28.759 --> 00:06:30.839 on their shlock homes hat and play the ball. 120 00:06:31.759 --> 00:06:36.439 So he has, if I remember correctly, he actually has 121 00:06:36.680 --> 00:06:38.759 been in the room with I think eight. 122 00:06:38.600 --> 00:06:40.959 Serial killers approximately give or take. 123 00:06:41.040 --> 00:06:43.560 And then by the end of the story, before you 124 00:06:43.600 --> 00:06:47.199 guys nail them, he claims to have met with seventy 125 00:06:47.279 --> 00:06:48.560 seven serial killers. 126 00:06:48.800 --> 00:06:50.439 Do I have those numbers right in the ballpark? 127 00:06:50.639 --> 00:06:54.399 That's right, he claims in his career, and they always 128 00:06:54.399 --> 00:06:56.360 in the you know, we have all this archival footage, 129 00:06:56.439 --> 00:06:58.480 you know, where the numbers keep morphing and changing but 130 00:06:58.519 --> 00:07:00.560 I think at the peak, you know, he's he claimed 131 00:07:00.560 --> 00:07:04.079 to have not just met, but interviewed over seventy seven. 132 00:07:04.360 --> 00:07:07.199 He claimed to have thousands of hours of interview tape 133 00:07:08.439 --> 00:07:10.879 with you know this, you know, over with his seventy 134 00:07:10.920 --> 00:07:14.959 seven or more serial killers. The Fourth Eye, the investigative 135 00:07:15.160 --> 00:07:19.040 true crime group that started investigating him, they could only 136 00:07:19.120 --> 00:07:24.079 substantiate eight to nine interviews on camera at best, thirteen, 137 00:07:24.600 --> 00:07:27.839 you know, eight or nine interviews are on camera thirteen total. 138 00:07:27.839 --> 00:07:30.920 Maybe he met, but he obviously claimed way way more 139 00:07:30.959 --> 00:07:33.680 than that, you know, because you know, that's a staggering number. 140 00:07:33.800 --> 00:07:37.800 Now to put that into perspective. You know, the mind Hunter, 141 00:07:37.920 --> 00:07:41.279 the you know, the Netflix series is based on you know, 142 00:07:41.279 --> 00:07:44.399 an FBI forensic profiler named John Douglas, you know, one 143 00:07:44.439 --> 00:07:47.639 of the one of the most famous profilers in FBI 144 00:07:47.759 --> 00:07:50.959 history and in the world. He only, you know, in 145 00:07:51.000 --> 00:07:55.079 his book, only claims, not claims, he can substantiate having 146 00:07:55.680 --> 00:07:58.600 interviewed thirty six serial killers. So here's the most renowned 147 00:07:59.319 --> 00:08:03.000 FBI profile ser Mindhunter, with all of the tools, access 148 00:08:03.000 --> 00:08:05.639 and resources f the FBI, and he tapped out at 149 00:08:05.639 --> 00:08:08.279 thirty six. And somehow Borglon you know, got to seventy 150 00:08:08.279 --> 00:08:11.360 seven globally is well you can do the math on that. 151 00:08:11.480 --> 00:08:11.639 Well. 152 00:08:11.680 --> 00:08:13.879 What I also found amazing in the story was that 153 00:08:14.240 --> 00:08:18.800 Baguan was plagiarizing the true mind hunter, right, I mean, 154 00:08:18.839 --> 00:08:21.519 he was literally taking things out of his books. I 155 00:08:21.519 --> 00:08:24.360 mean he literally lifted, I mean, and he was all 156 00:08:24.759 --> 00:08:26.759 and on top of being a liar, he was also 157 00:08:26.759 --> 00:08:29.680 a platiss too, where he was literally taking things from 158 00:08:29.759 --> 00:08:31.519 what this guy had written and putting it in his 159 00:08:31.560 --> 00:08:32.279 own books. 160 00:08:32.639 --> 00:08:34.960 Well not just what John Douglas had written, but also 161 00:08:35.000 --> 00:08:39.559 there's a very famous South African profilers, doctor Mick Dourius, 162 00:08:40.120 --> 00:08:44.399 who he documentary about spent time in South Africa, you know, 163 00:08:44.840 --> 00:08:48.679 she you know, took him to resolved, solved serial you know, 164 00:08:48.799 --> 00:08:51.919 killer cases, things that had no longer you know, we're 165 00:08:51.960 --> 00:08:54.039 not open cases, and they you know, went around with 166 00:08:54.039 --> 00:08:57.120 other detectives and he profiled each one of these cases. 167 00:08:57.679 --> 00:09:00.120 Later we then claim to help having solved some of 168 00:09:00.159 --> 00:09:03.759 them interview or interrogated, which interrogation is really a term 169 00:09:03.799 --> 00:09:07.919 reserved for someone in law enforcement, not you know, a civilian, 170 00:09:07.960 --> 00:09:12.360 which Burguan is. And he so he claimed, you know, 171 00:09:12.519 --> 00:09:15.519 to have you know, help solve these murders and help 172 00:09:15.559 --> 00:09:20.000 crack these cases and the interrogation interview techniques that the 173 00:09:20.039 --> 00:09:22.639 detectives on the ground South Africa had not thought of, 174 00:09:22.759 --> 00:09:25.840 and all of these or borrowed their stories. So he actually, 175 00:09:26.279 --> 00:09:27.759 you know, it's two things to come out of this 176 00:09:27.799 --> 00:09:31.600 which are significant. One this fourth I coined this term 177 00:09:32.320 --> 00:09:37.039 calling volar divi, which means a stealer of lives. This 178 00:09:37.159 --> 00:09:40.200 is an incredible double entendre when you're talking about serial 179 00:09:40.279 --> 00:09:43.080 killers obviously still lives and mean like the stealer of 180 00:09:43.159 --> 00:09:46.480 like your soul, your actual you know, living breath. But 181 00:09:46.519 --> 00:09:48.879 also when in the context they meant it is the 182 00:09:48.879 --> 00:09:51.720 stealer of lives, that he would steal the stories of 183 00:09:51.759 --> 00:09:54.480 other people. And so with John Douglas, he did that. 184 00:09:54.519 --> 00:09:57.840 With doctor Mickey Pistorius, you know, she wrote her first 185 00:09:58.399 --> 00:10:02.480 manuscript a biography, autobiography of her own story. Is this, 186 00:10:02.879 --> 00:10:07.440 you know, groundbreaking forensic uh psychologist and profiler in South 187 00:10:07.440 --> 00:10:11.120 Africa who have solved innumerable ro color cases in South 188 00:10:11.120 --> 00:10:14.159 Africa and bringing new science to it. And wrote her 189 00:10:14.360 --> 00:10:17.720 you know, her kind of rememboir autobiography called Catch Me 190 00:10:17.759 --> 00:10:22.000 a Killer. And he took that book, asked the manuscript 191 00:10:22.000 --> 00:10:24.120 before it was printed, you know, went off back to 192 00:10:24.159 --> 00:10:27.919 France and then wrote her biography in French about her 193 00:10:28.120 --> 00:10:31.080 essentially in plagiarizing jute passages of her own book, a 194 00:10:31.120 --> 00:10:34.879 yet unpublished book. So he literally steals her, her words, 195 00:10:34.919 --> 00:10:38.120 her stories, her life. Uh, you know, projected onto himself 196 00:10:38.159 --> 00:10:41.919 to a grandize himself. And so yeah, plagiarism, you know, 197 00:10:41.960 --> 00:10:44.960 at Blush seems like a you know, a pretty minor offense, 198 00:10:45.159 --> 00:10:47.720 you know, a grade school offense, but in the context 199 00:10:47.720 --> 00:10:51.320 of how it's deployed to a grandize his career, uh, 200 00:10:51.399 --> 00:10:55.679 a grandize expertise, take credit for things he never took, 201 00:10:55.759 --> 00:10:58.240 you know, possibly have participated in. You know, the crime 202 00:10:58.320 --> 00:11:02.759 gets more and more murky, and the etical crimes get deeper, 203 00:11:03.000 --> 00:11:06.120 you know, and then of progressed into straight moral crimes. 204 00:11:06.159 --> 00:11:09.039 And that's really where you know, we find ourselves trying 205 00:11:09.080 --> 00:11:11.320 to adjudicate borgan Is around his you know, the moral 206 00:11:11.360 --> 00:11:12.559 crime he has committed over time. 207 00:11:12.639 --> 00:11:14.879 Well, there's some great video in the scene where he 208 00:11:15.639 --> 00:11:20.440 holds the profile's hand, mister story, pronounce your last. 209 00:11:20.320 --> 00:11:21.000 Name for me again. 210 00:11:21.639 --> 00:11:23.080 It's Pistorias history. 211 00:11:23.080 --> 00:11:26.320 Okay, So Pastoria and he's holding her hand and she's crying. 212 00:11:26.360 --> 00:11:28.480 She's had a crime scene and she's in tears and 213 00:11:28.480 --> 00:11:30.320 he holds her hand and he was like, I know, 214 00:11:30.960 --> 00:11:33.200 and then he drops the bomb, which you set up 215 00:11:33.240 --> 00:11:36.279 at the beginning. But it kind of reminded me about how, 216 00:11:36.399 --> 00:11:38.639 you know, his girlfriend was murdered and he's telling her 217 00:11:38.840 --> 00:11:42.120 I mean, and he's just totally putting himself in her place. 218 00:11:42.519 --> 00:11:43.600 Just a real scumbag. 219 00:11:43.840 --> 00:11:48.600 And he's got no soul, he has no conscious whatsoever. 220 00:11:49.320 --> 00:11:51.159 And what we're going to talk a Ben about next 221 00:11:51.320 --> 00:11:54.759 is about that girlfriend and about the alleged reason why 222 00:11:54.799 --> 00:11:56.879 he got into this business in the first place. 223 00:11:57.279 --> 00:11:59.200 It's a terrific, terrific series. 224 00:11:59.240 --> 00:12:01.919 It's called kill A Chasing a True crime con Man, 225 00:12:02.279 --> 00:12:04.480 and it's on Hulu. It's streaming right now and you 226 00:12:04.480 --> 00:12:07.320 should watch it more with Ben Celko, the director After 227 00:12:07.360 --> 00:12:09.240 the Sun night Side, It's. 228 00:12:09.200 --> 00:12:13.480 Night Side with Dan Read. I'm Boston's news radio. 229 00:12:13.679 --> 00:12:14.120 Attention. 230 00:12:14.360 --> 00:12:16.799 If you owe money to the IRS, this is an 231 00:12:16.919 --> 00:12:20.159 urgent message. The IRS is cracking down by sending out 232 00:12:20.200 --> 00:12:24.519 heart stopping letters, aggressively garnishing paychecks, seizing bank accounts, and 233 00:12:24.559 --> 00:12:26.360 putting liens on homes and businesses. 234 00:12:26.600 --> 00:12:28.320 They call it enforced compliance. 235 00:12:28.480 --> 00:12:31.159 And you better watch out because penalties and interest on 236 00:12:31.240 --> 00:12:34.960 unpaid taxes compound daily, making it seem impossible to ever 237 00:12:35.039 --> 00:12:35.759 get out of debt. 238 00:12:35.919 --> 00:12:38.200 Don't let the tax debt destroy your life. 239 00:12:38.240 --> 00:12:41.039 You need to call Optima Tax Relief, the number one 240 00:12:41.159 --> 00:12:44.559 tax resolution firm. They're experts in the Fresh Start Initiative, 241 00:12:44.600 --> 00:12:47.440 one of the biggest breaks that the IRS has ever offered. 242 00:12:47.559 --> 00:12:50.919 If you qualify, you could save thousands. Optimas resolved over 243 00:12:51.000 --> 00:12:53.759 one billion dollars of tax debt for their clients. A 244 00:12:53.919 --> 00:12:56.639 plus rated with the Better Business Bureau. They'll fight to 245 00:12:56.679 --> 00:12:59.200 get you the best deal possible. Call op tomnaw for 246 00:12:59.240 --> 00:13:02.039 a free consult called eight hundred three four three sixty 247 00:13:02.080 --> 00:13:04.919 four sixty eight hundred three four three sixty four sixty 248 00:13:05.000 --> 00:13:07.759 eight hundred three four three sixty four sixty. 249 00:13:07.919 --> 00:13:09.120 Poptim A Task Relief. 250 00:13:10.279 --> 00:13:11.039 Some restrictions apply. 251 00:13:11.080 --> 00:13:13.320 For complete details, please I saitt optimatax relief dot com. 252 00:13:13.360 --> 00:13:16.840 This is Dan Ray. Michael lost forty pounds with awakened 253 00:13:16.879 --> 00:13:19.159 one eight. He was in the same position I was in. 254 00:13:19.559 --> 00:13:21.919 You are most likely in confused. 255 00:13:22.159 --> 00:13:24.600 I spent so much money on personal trainings in the 256 00:13:24.679 --> 00:13:27.519 last ten years, didn't have a lot of discretion income left, 257 00:13:27.720 --> 00:13:29.399 so I tried to listen to everybody else, what do 258 00:13:29.399 --> 00:13:32.480 you eat? You know, everyone said eat healthy, define eating healthy, 259 00:13:32.600 --> 00:13:35.159 cut out sugar. Tell me what foods don't have sugar. 260 00:13:35.360 --> 00:13:37.879 So that process to me was an education. That was 261 00:13:37.919 --> 00:13:40.159 really the eye opening thing to me is I had 262 00:13:40.159 --> 00:13:41.879 ten choices of food in front of me every day. 263 00:13:41.960 --> 00:13:43.600 You know, when I was on the run in sales, 264 00:13:43.679 --> 00:13:46.080 I was making eight bad choices. I wasn't eating the 265 00:13:46.120 --> 00:13:47.759 two good ones. And I loved the two good ones, 266 00:13:47.799 --> 00:13:49.360 I just didn't know they were good. So I made 267 00:13:49.440 --> 00:13:52.240 bad choices every single day in the program. Going to 268 00:13:52.279 --> 00:13:54.600 Waken one to eighty really changed my mind, opened my 269 00:13:54.639 --> 00:13:57.159 eyes up to It was a true education on food, 270 00:13:57.320 --> 00:14:00.240 what to eat, what not to eat, and it's spent intact. 271 00:14:00.480 --> 00:14:03.960 Knowing what to eat, the ability to navigate nutrition labels, 272 00:14:04.039 --> 00:14:06.960 a proven clear path for weight loss. Exactly what you 273 00:14:06.960 --> 00:14:10.000 will receive with Awaken one, Indy, leave confusion at the 274 00:14:10.039 --> 00:14:13.600 door and do what we did Awaken when aityweightloss dot Com. 275 00:14:13.639 --> 00:14:16.080 This weekend, It's the Italian Feast of Saint Cosmas and 276 00:14:16.120 --> 00:14:17.039 Damien and. 277 00:14:17.080 --> 00:14:21.879 Warren Street than East Cambridge, British Austin. 278 00:14:23.120 --> 00:14:24.440 And Brenda k Star. 279 00:14:26.039 --> 00:14:28.279 Saturday, the original cover Girl. 280 00:14:29.840 --> 00:14:32.799 And Motown Legend Miss Delahouston. 281 00:14:34.159 --> 00:14:40.360 Sunday on Brooks The Crystal Flame Food Mere amusement rides 282 00:14:40.519 --> 00:14:42.200 this weekend in East Cambridge. 283 00:14:42.320 --> 00:14:46.240 Visit Cosmos and Dashtamion dot org. Hey guys, Billy Costa here. 284 00:14:46.240 --> 00:14:48.600 If somebody told you you might have money you didn't 285 00:14:48.600 --> 00:14:52.240 know about, you'd be skeptical, but don't be. The Massachusetts 286 00:14:52.240 --> 00:14:56.200 State Treasurer's Office has a program that returns unclaimed property 287 00:14:56.320 --> 00:14:58.960 back to you. Every state and the US has a 288 00:14:59.000 --> 00:15:02.080 program like it, and here the website. The search is 289 00:15:02.159 --> 00:15:05.840 findmass money dot gov. Both times I looked, I found money. 290 00:15:05.879 --> 00:15:08.679 I had a refund from a car overpayment and another 291 00:15:08.759 --> 00:15:11.559 refund from a previous car lease bill. So if you 292 00:15:11.759 --> 00:15:15.559 checked before, check again. Go to findmass money dot gov. 293 00:15:16.200 --> 00:15:19.480 Everyone knows that warrendale applies at Waldam is New England's 294 00:15:19.519 --> 00:15:22.600 number one home appliance leader, and if you're a contractor, 295 00:15:22.639 --> 00:15:26.440 developer or property manager handling one to one thousand units, 296 00:15:26.559 --> 00:15:31.200 we absolutely guarantee to be any price from any competitor anywhere. 297 00:15:31.440 --> 00:15:37.039 So for refrigerators, stoves, ranges, washers, dryers, dishwashers, grills. 298 00:15:36.639 --> 00:15:37.039 And more. 299 00:15:37.240 --> 00:15:40.240 When it comes to saving on appliance is everyone singing 300 00:15:40.279 --> 00:15:44.679 the same to say the wardell applies one's seventy High 301 00:15:44.679 --> 00:15:45.399 Street Walltham. 302 00:15:46.639 --> 00:15:48.080 No two people are the same. 303 00:15:48.720 --> 00:15:51.759 Each may have the same cancer, yet each may need 304 00:15:51.879 --> 00:15:55.879 a different treatment. At Dana Farber Brigham Cancer Center, we 305 00:15:55.919 --> 00:16:00.000 are specialists. All we do is cancer. Our personal line 306 00:16:00.159 --> 00:16:03.120 approach gives us a deeper understanding of your. 307 00:16:03.000 --> 00:16:05.080 Needs and how to get you well. 308 00:16:05.519 --> 00:16:08.919 For an appointment in Boston, Foxborough, Milford or south Shore, 309 00:16:09.159 --> 00:16:13.399 contact Dana Farber Brigham dot org. We specialize in cancer 310 00:16:13.879 --> 00:16:14.360 and you. 311 00:16:15.960 --> 00:16:19.080 Now back to Dan Ray live from the Window World 312 00:16:19.200 --> 00:16:22.320 Nightside Studios on WBZ News Radio. 313 00:16:23.440 --> 00:16:25.159 Hey, welcome back Gary Tangley for Dan Ray. 314 00:16:25.159 --> 00:16:27.639 Tonight You're on w BZY Killer Lies Chasing a true 315 00:16:27.720 --> 00:16:32.279 crime con man with director Ben Salcoe Stefan Agoin who 316 00:16:33.679 --> 00:16:37.840 he is something else, supposedly an expert on serial killers 317 00:16:38.360 --> 00:16:41.000 and telling many lies himself saying that he met with 318 00:16:41.080 --> 00:16:43.919 up to seventy seven serial killers but actually only really 319 00:16:43.960 --> 00:16:46.759 met with eight. He ended up consulting with law enforcement, 320 00:16:47.240 --> 00:16:49.879 was involved teaching law enforcement and this is a terrific 321 00:16:49.879 --> 00:16:53.879 series on Hulu, three part series that you should watch. So, Ben, 322 00:16:54.000 --> 00:16:56.919 where do we at the beginning? First of all, I 323 00:16:56.919 --> 00:16:59.200 thought it was structured. You did a great job putting 324 00:16:59.200 --> 00:17:03.039 this project together. Other at the beginning, he's on the 325 00:17:03.080 --> 00:17:06.000 typewriter and he's talking about his girlfriend that was killed 326 00:17:06.000 --> 00:17:09.319 in the seventies, and then you read it's re introduced 327 00:17:09.359 --> 00:17:12.359 to us again when he's in South Africa. So fill 328 00:17:12.440 --> 00:17:14.359 us in on that angle of his life. 329 00:17:16.079 --> 00:17:20.559 Yeah, so you know, you know, in you know, in 330 00:17:20.640 --> 00:17:23.319 the latter part, you know, I would say, you know, 331 00:17:23.519 --> 00:17:25.640 after he'd got in his career going into public life. Like, 332 00:17:25.720 --> 00:17:29.200 I think his story has many beginning points, but one 333 00:17:29.200 --> 00:17:33.759 that's important for the series and one that's important in 334 00:17:33.759 --> 00:17:36.480 in the meta conversation. The story you know, tangled with 335 00:17:36.640 --> 00:17:38.960 is you know, starts start with nineteen ninety one. Nineteen 336 00:17:39.039 --> 00:17:42.400 ninety one was a year that you know, Silence of 337 00:17:42.400 --> 00:17:45.039 the Lambs comes out, and that becomes an international hit, 338 00:17:45.079 --> 00:17:48.839 and it becomes this you know, ficialization of you know, 339 00:17:49.680 --> 00:17:53.720 profilers and the FBI serial killers, and it kind of 340 00:17:53.759 --> 00:17:56.680 elevates with you know, Anthony Hopkins performance the serial killer 341 00:17:56.680 --> 00:18:02.720 into this kind of mastermind, genius, charismatic specter that you 342 00:18:02.759 --> 00:18:06.119 know kind of just transcends entertainment and becomes really part 343 00:18:06.119 --> 00:18:08.559 of the cultural zitgeist. I think, you know, true crime 344 00:18:08.559 --> 00:18:11.359 has existed as a genre. Crime fiction has existed as 345 00:18:11.400 --> 00:18:15.079 a genre, you know, for decades before, but this nineteen 346 00:18:15.119 --> 00:18:17.400 ninety one becomes a really important moment and the kind 347 00:18:17.440 --> 00:18:20.880 of cultural consciousness that's globally, that's not just in the US. 348 00:18:21.200 --> 00:18:25.920 Bourguan starts. You know, had been working in a crime 349 00:18:26.000 --> 00:18:29.880 fiction bookstore in Paris that he worked at for years 350 00:18:29.880 --> 00:18:32.599 and years and had a notion through a friend to 351 00:18:32.640 --> 00:18:35.599 make a documentary around serial killers in France who cannot 352 00:18:35.640 --> 00:18:37.839 get access to the prisons in the United States in 353 00:18:37.839 --> 00:18:40.759 the early nineties they would let you in with cameras 354 00:18:41.119 --> 00:18:43.839 to interview all manner of people, and they had the 355 00:18:43.839 --> 00:18:47.000 temerity to get it together. They petitioned a bunch of 356 00:18:47.000 --> 00:18:49.519 prisons in the States and came to the States and 357 00:18:49.759 --> 00:18:53.640 started making a documentary for French television around serial killers, 358 00:18:53.640 --> 00:18:56.799 and he interviewed you know, you know, three of a 359 00:18:57.039 --> 00:19:01.279 very high profile serial killers had temper uh otus tool 360 00:19:01.640 --> 00:19:04.240 injure our shaper. And these are people who had you know, 361 00:19:04.279 --> 00:19:07.680 a lot of notoriety in the criminal justice world, in 362 00:19:07.720 --> 00:19:10.720 the crime fiction world, true true crime world, bursioning true 363 00:19:10.720 --> 00:19:13.480 crime world. Uh and then a pretty exceptional documentary that 364 00:19:13.920 --> 00:19:18.000 about some play in France. But he started to parlay 365 00:19:18.039 --> 00:19:21.480 that into uh, some media attention. He wrote a book 366 00:19:21.480 --> 00:19:25.160 from that, you know, started grabbing more attention, and you know, 367 00:19:25.279 --> 00:19:27.160 true crime starts to take off in a kind of 368 00:19:27.200 --> 00:19:31.680 global phenomenon as a as an interesting genre as television expands, 369 00:19:31.759 --> 00:19:35.279 cable television answers the picture later the Internet, and he's 370 00:19:35.319 --> 00:19:39.279 writing this kind of this true crime wave of expansion 371 00:19:39.359 --> 00:19:42.839 into our kind of you know, audiences fascination, and he's 372 00:19:43.319 --> 00:19:45.880 you know, taking that journey. Now when he's starting to 373 00:19:45.920 --> 00:19:48.920 make these television appearances, you know, he's starting to get 374 00:19:49.319 --> 00:19:53.759 interview questions around the peculiarities of his fixation on serial killers. 375 00:19:54.559 --> 00:19:57.559 And I think this we suspect that it was because 376 00:19:58.119 --> 00:20:00.720 he was starting to you know, put people off or 377 00:20:00.720 --> 00:20:02.920 put people off balance, that he all of a sudden 378 00:20:03.000 --> 00:20:07.440 volunteers that he too is a victim in fact, and 379 00:20:07.480 --> 00:20:09.880 all of a sudden, you know, the hosts of these 380 00:20:09.880 --> 00:20:13.599 shows started straightening him, giving him a different kind of respect. 381 00:20:13.640 --> 00:20:15.200 And the look that he's. 382 00:20:15.039 --> 00:20:18.759 Found sympathy was that, and sympathy. 383 00:20:19.599 --> 00:20:22.559 Sympathy exactly so. And you know in the story that 384 00:20:22.640 --> 00:20:24.640 he puts forth is in the seventies while living in 385 00:20:24.680 --> 00:20:27.720 the United States. He had taken a girlfriend or wife 386 00:20:27.839 --> 00:20:31.000 or lover and the you know, the term keeps changing, 387 00:20:31.039 --> 00:20:34.960 not just beyond translation. And he came home one day 388 00:20:35.039 --> 00:20:41.359 and found her decapitated, mutilated, raped, eviscerated. Uh, you know, 389 00:20:41.440 --> 00:20:44.400 just came home with this horrific scene in his home 390 00:20:44.440 --> 00:20:48.559 in California. And that's where his you know, his lover 391 00:20:48.799 --> 00:20:52.079 girlfriend wife was killed. And so in fact, he you know, 392 00:20:52.319 --> 00:20:55.279 was a you know, a survivor, not of a serial 393 00:20:55.319 --> 00:20:58.000 killer attack, but of you know, of a victims you know, 394 00:20:58.160 --> 00:21:01.599 a victim survivor. So he uses that story, which you know, 395 00:21:01.720 --> 00:21:05.559 turns into a thing where he becomes kind of unassailable, 396 00:21:05.720 --> 00:21:08.279 you know, where posts are no longer asking him his 397 00:21:08.359 --> 00:21:10.720 origin story, right, they tell him. They let him do it, 398 00:21:10.720 --> 00:21:12.480 but they don't critique it. They don't research it because 399 00:21:12.519 --> 00:21:15.720 hale cous to me to you know, to press on 400 00:21:15.759 --> 00:21:18.960 someone's pain or trauma or history, you know. And this 401 00:21:19.000 --> 00:21:21.240 is in the mid nineties, and so you know, they 402 00:21:21.279 --> 00:21:23.799 don't have the same tools or research. They're in France. 403 00:21:23.799 --> 00:21:26.839 There's the barrier of language, since it's all happened in America, 404 00:21:26.880 --> 00:21:29.640 and this is all you know, we suspect it very intentional, right, 405 00:21:29.640 --> 00:21:32.759 where he uses his bilingual abilities in English and French 406 00:21:33.759 --> 00:21:36.279 to keep you know, the French, the prying eyes of 407 00:21:36.319 --> 00:21:39.279 the French at bay, because at that point in the 408 00:21:39.279 --> 00:21:42.599 early nineties, you know, the diplomatic language of France, of 409 00:21:42.960 --> 00:21:46.440 Europe is French. That France is not particularly bilingual. Now 410 00:21:46.440 --> 00:21:48.160 you go to France and the whole generation, everyone's speak 411 00:21:48.279 --> 00:21:51.400 perfect English, especially in Paris and all these places. But 412 00:21:51.640 --> 00:21:53.440 you know, for decades it was not this case. And 413 00:21:53.440 --> 00:21:55.359 so if you spoke English, that was a real rarity 414 00:21:55.920 --> 00:21:58.400 in France. And he traded upon that over and over again, 415 00:21:58.440 --> 00:22:00.799 where he was borrowing things in English, taking of as 416 00:22:00.839 --> 00:22:03.119 his own in French because he knew that there'd be 417 00:22:03.119 --> 00:22:05.440 no kind of critique or trail. And there's time went 418 00:22:05.440 --> 00:22:08.039 forward that that started to come apart. But anyway, he 419 00:22:08.160 --> 00:22:11.119 uses the story of his you know, slain lover as 420 00:22:11.160 --> 00:22:15.640 a way to create sympathy too, to make his story 421 00:22:15.680 --> 00:22:18.680 kind of unassailable. And then later in the two thousands 422 00:22:18.680 --> 00:22:21.160 that we see in you know, in our series Kill Lives, 423 00:22:21.640 --> 00:22:26.079 he starts to insinuate himself into survivors groups, family members 424 00:22:26.119 --> 00:22:29.960 who lost someone who was killed by a serial Killer 425 00:22:30.599 --> 00:22:34.039 and gains their trusts. You know, is going attends their 426 00:22:34.119 --> 00:22:37.880 trials as this. You know, there's a group that is 427 00:22:37.920 --> 00:22:40.680 formed to advocate. He's on the board of it, and 428 00:22:40.759 --> 00:22:43.759 he becomes a you know, a kind of face and 429 00:22:43.759 --> 00:22:48.079 a figure of these you know, survivors and you know, 430 00:22:48.160 --> 00:22:51.799 and so when we talk about moral injury at moral crime, 431 00:22:52.160 --> 00:22:54.240 it's really at that. That's the heart of that, where 432 00:22:54.519 --> 00:22:57.920 you know, the betrayal of trust is so egregious and 433 00:22:57.960 --> 00:23:02.200 on such kind of repentant terms that you know, that's 434 00:23:02.240 --> 00:23:04.839 where if you had any tympathy for him in his story, 435 00:23:04.839 --> 00:23:07.559 which we are packing in the third episode to truly 436 00:23:07.880 --> 00:23:11.400 give him, the writer of response a sympathetic lens, as 437 00:23:11.440 --> 00:23:15.079 we give every every person in the sporty, when you 438 00:23:15.160 --> 00:23:17.720 come back to that moral center and his crimes in 439 00:23:17.720 --> 00:23:21.079 that space, it's it's hard to walk that back. 440 00:23:21.960 --> 00:23:25.279 This guy was he was delusional. I mean, he was 441 00:23:25.400 --> 00:23:30.680 really delusional. Because when when when I saw I heard 442 00:23:30.680 --> 00:23:32.799 the name and I saw the video of Charlie Manson 443 00:23:32.880 --> 00:23:35.359 come into your piece, I said, oh boy, I go 444 00:23:35.480 --> 00:23:38.079 this guy has really lost it. And we're going to 445 00:23:38.079 --> 00:23:40.920 talk about that next with Ben Selko here on WBZ. 446 00:23:41.240 --> 00:23:45.480 Killer Lies Chasing a True crime con man Stefan ba 447 00:23:45.559 --> 00:23:47.799 going on WBZ It's. 448 00:23:47.759 --> 00:23:52.480 Night Side on Boston's news radio. 449 00:23:53.160 --> 00:23:56.119 Welcome Back Killerlies Chasing a True crime con Man Ben 450 00:23:56.160 --> 00:23:59.640 Selko the director of this terrific series on Hulu streaming 451 00:23:59.720 --> 00:24:00.079 right now. 452 00:24:00.119 --> 00:24:00.880 You could check it out. 453 00:24:01.640 --> 00:24:04.960 It's about French serial killer experts savan by Going, who 454 00:24:05.000 --> 00:24:07.680 turned out to be well, quite frankly a fraud, so 455 00:24:08.319 --> 00:24:10.359 made up a lot of this stuff. He met with 456 00:24:10.440 --> 00:24:12.920 eight serial killers, that he met with seventy seven if 457 00:24:12.960 --> 00:24:17.519 an expert became a consultant to police authorities, and then 458 00:24:18.359 --> 00:24:19.799 and then I also want to get to the fact 459 00:24:19.839 --> 00:24:23.160 that he also started to say that he was solving murders. 460 00:24:23.440 --> 00:24:26.240 But when the Charles Manson thing hit, Ben, this is 461 00:24:26.279 --> 00:24:30.160 not a funny topic, but I just insanely laughed out loud. So, 462 00:24:31.279 --> 00:24:33.440 you know, he claims to have met Charles Manson, but 463 00:24:33.480 --> 00:24:36.119 when you nailed him, he told a different story. 464 00:24:38.039 --> 00:24:41.839 Yeah, So his story about Charles Manson is you know, 465 00:24:42.559 --> 00:24:44.160 you know both you know what it makes you sit 466 00:24:44.240 --> 00:24:46.240 up because it's one of the most notorious kind of 467 00:24:46.240 --> 00:24:51.160 cult figures and you know, in American history. But the 468 00:24:51.200 --> 00:24:55.519 short he tells is about how he tried to dominate, 469 00:24:55.759 --> 00:24:57.759 you know, where Charles Manson sat on the back of 470 00:24:57.799 --> 00:25:00.799 his chair to try to dominate, right right, right, right, yeah, 471 00:25:00.960 --> 00:25:04.279 which also the story that John Douglas tells, because John 472 00:25:04.279 --> 00:25:07.519 Douglas actually interviewed Charles Manson, John Douglas, the mind hunter, 473 00:25:07.680 --> 00:25:09.880 the profiler from the FBI, who is you know, a 474 00:25:10.039 --> 00:25:13.440 storied profiler, you know, someone who actually interviewed, you know, 475 00:25:13.599 --> 00:25:16.759 over thirty six the Serokillers is his own right, actually 476 00:25:16.799 --> 00:25:18.960 interviewed Charles Manson. Then the story he tells me is, 477 00:25:19.200 --> 00:25:22.319 you know, his biography is our biography is about how 478 00:25:22.440 --> 00:25:24.119 Manson tried to intimidate if by sitting on the back 479 00:25:24.119 --> 00:25:26.240 of his chair. Because Manson is a pretty slight fellow, 480 00:25:26.759 --> 00:25:29.599 so for Juan would tell that story as that. And 481 00:25:29.640 --> 00:25:32.920 then as you pressed them, he's like, well, I didn't 482 00:25:32.960 --> 00:25:36.200 actually interview him. Act well, I know, I saw him 483 00:25:36.480 --> 00:25:38.680 on the yard of a prison. I was at well, 484 00:25:38.799 --> 00:25:41.480 you know, like you know, the story starts to deteriorate 485 00:25:42.359 --> 00:25:44.359 as you press him on the details, and you know, 486 00:25:44.400 --> 00:25:47.440 this lack of substantiation exists, but that that tells you 487 00:25:47.519 --> 00:25:49.920 the audacity of the live which goes to you know, 488 00:25:49.960 --> 00:25:52.400 some of these adages about in frauds and cons and 489 00:25:52.440 --> 00:25:55.039 scams is like, you know, go big on your lie. Right, 490 00:25:55.079 --> 00:25:57.559 the bigger you go, the more less, the less likely 491 00:25:57.599 --> 00:26:00.720 the audiences to you know, quesh it right. You know 492 00:26:00.720 --> 00:26:02.640 he'll be timid with your live And so he really 493 00:26:02.680 --> 00:26:05.319 embraced that spirit and Manson story is you know, a 494 00:26:05.319 --> 00:26:06.720 complete encapsulation of that. 495 00:26:08.000 --> 00:26:09.839 But what did he do or can you give us 496 00:26:09.880 --> 00:26:13.359 some examples of where he started to take credit I 497 00:26:13.480 --> 00:26:18.079 believe right for solving murders or becoming involved investigations. 498 00:26:18.200 --> 00:26:22.000 Yeah, so he certainly was invited by the Gendarmes, which 499 00:26:22.039 --> 00:26:24.559 is a kind of you know, police group in France 500 00:26:24.599 --> 00:26:27.559 and would you know, use his expertise, and usually he 501 00:26:27.559 --> 00:26:30.759 would just reshow his film from nineteen ninety one about 502 00:26:30.799 --> 00:26:32.640 you know, with the American zerial killers and give his 503 00:26:33.119 --> 00:26:35.160 you know, his speech on the profile of you know, 504 00:26:35.200 --> 00:26:38.440 proclivities of serial killers and you know child trauma and 505 00:26:38.680 --> 00:26:41.640 their sexual deviance and fixate on that and that would 506 00:26:41.640 --> 00:26:44.279 be his like teaching and lessons. But where he very 507 00:26:44.359 --> 00:26:48.200 specifically in one radio show you know, detailed you know, 508 00:26:48.279 --> 00:26:53.400 helping solve or elicitly a confession from you know, Stuart 509 00:26:53.400 --> 00:26:56.559 Wilkin who is a serial killer in South Africa. And 510 00:26:56.640 --> 00:26:59.119 the story he told was that he knew that the 511 00:26:59.200 --> 00:27:03.119 victims is to an we're we're children. He solicited the 512 00:27:03.160 --> 00:27:06.039 foot you know, so we're wan claims to have taking 513 00:27:06.200 --> 00:27:09.440 you know, asked the detective on the scenes for photos 514 00:27:09.480 --> 00:27:12.359 of his children, you know, put them all over the 515 00:27:12.400 --> 00:27:15.640 wall of the interview with interrogation room. Uh. And from that, 516 00:27:16.000 --> 00:27:19.640 you know, solicited, you know, triggered this the serial killer 517 00:27:19.640 --> 00:27:24.079 in South Africa and solicted his confession. Now that's you know, 518 00:27:24.680 --> 00:27:26.880 not true because that case had already by the time 519 00:27:26.920 --> 00:27:28.720 he went to South Africa. There was time that case 520 00:27:28.960 --> 00:27:32.079 had already gone to trial till Wilkin was in prison. 521 00:27:32.279 --> 00:27:34.920 He spent time with the detective who put that serial 522 00:27:34.960 --> 00:27:38.759 killer in prison, Uh, who deployed that technique himself. And 523 00:27:38.839 --> 00:27:42.319 so he you know, he appropriates the story of legitimate 524 00:27:42.359 --> 00:27:44.680 law enforcement, you know, claims it as his own as 525 00:27:44.720 --> 00:27:49.000 this kind of mysterious uh. You know, international man of 526 00:27:49.160 --> 00:27:53.720 interrogation and you know Prime Stopper and you know in Bregue, 527 00:27:53.880 --> 00:27:55.319 you know, I pressed them on this. Well, I mean 528 00:27:55.319 --> 00:27:57.400 that's outrageous. Why would you do that? He said, Well, 529 00:27:57.720 --> 00:27:59.640 you know, I can't help myself. I get in front 530 00:27:59.640 --> 00:28:01.799 of an audience and you know, I feel the need 531 00:28:01.920 --> 00:28:04.720 to tell these stories, and you know, it just floods 532 00:28:04.759 --> 00:28:06.960 my mind, you know, comes out of my mouth. It floods, 533 00:28:07.119 --> 00:28:09.440 you know, just floods. I can't It's almost involuntary. I 534 00:28:09.440 --> 00:28:12.160 can't stop myself. And in the third episode, you know, 535 00:28:12.200 --> 00:28:14.640 we try to he tries to explain why as you 536 00:28:14.880 --> 00:28:18.720 go deep into his kind of psychology, his childhood, his parents, 537 00:28:18.839 --> 00:28:22.079 you know, the stories like wow, hotly cal and that's 538 00:28:22.079 --> 00:28:26.799 a remarkable finding in his backstory that you know, helps 539 00:28:26.839 --> 00:28:29.920 him rationalize why he did this. And again never with apology, 540 00:28:30.039 --> 00:28:35.440 never with contrition, just kind of continued rationalization. But the 541 00:28:35.440 --> 00:28:39.599 third episode is a great uh you know, windy backstory 542 00:28:39.680 --> 00:28:42.119 that that tries to poke it origin stories in general, 543 00:28:42.359 --> 00:28:44.599 and poke at his and let him, uh, let the 544 00:28:44.640 --> 00:28:47.720 audience contend with you know, the facts of his background. 545 00:28:48.759 --> 00:28:52.759 What did you think of him when you met with him? 546 00:28:52.880 --> 00:28:55.039 Well, it's funny, you know. I give Lauren Collins, the 547 00:28:55.079 --> 00:28:57.119 New Yorker writer, a lot of credit because when she 548 00:28:57.200 --> 00:28:58.839 in twenty twenty two and she did the reporting, she 549 00:28:58.880 --> 00:29:01.400 reached out to him initially, Uh, he didn't get back 550 00:29:01.440 --> 00:29:01.759 to her. 551 00:29:02.200 --> 00:29:02.319 Uh. 552 00:29:02.359 --> 00:29:04.839 And then eventually she did what she normally never does. 553 00:29:04.920 --> 00:29:06.759 This is kind of the midst of COVID. You know, 554 00:29:06.799 --> 00:29:08.440 she just she took a train and a bus to 555 00:29:08.519 --> 00:29:11.240 his town and just kind of pulled up to town 556 00:29:11.279 --> 00:29:13.279 and called him. She says, I think I'm standing outside 557 00:29:13.279 --> 00:29:15.359 of your house. Uh it was the wrong house. And 558 00:29:15.599 --> 00:29:17.720 he said, well, he's gonna be here in fifteen minutes. 559 00:29:18.960 --> 00:29:21.119 I'll see you. And so she went there, you know, 560 00:29:21.160 --> 00:29:24.200 with her research assistant, you know, a young woman from 561 00:29:24.400 --> 00:29:27.799 you know, living in Paris. So it's just two two two, 562 00:29:27.880 --> 00:29:30.599 you know women, you know, going into like you know, 563 00:29:30.759 --> 00:29:33.880 this kind of theater of horrors. As she describes his home, 564 00:29:35.200 --> 00:29:37.079 that was, you know, really impressive. You know. I went 565 00:29:37.119 --> 00:29:40.160 there with you know, you know, a crew of eight 566 00:29:40.200 --> 00:29:43.079 of people, and you know, I'm not a small dude. 567 00:29:42.920 --> 00:29:45.720 And like, yeah, he's not going to do anything to you. 568 00:29:45.720 --> 00:29:48.519 No, but you know, but despite that, with the full crew, 569 00:29:49.000 --> 00:29:54.079 I you see you play basketball. You've heard the report, Yeah, yeah, 570 00:29:54.440 --> 00:29:56.720 So but I went into the house. I was completely 571 00:29:56.799 --> 00:29:58.319 on edge when I was in his house. His house 572 00:29:58.400 --> 00:30:02.039 is full of of true crime and crime fiction ephemera, 573 00:30:03.200 --> 00:30:07.599 you know, bloody books, and you know, a huge collection 574 00:30:07.640 --> 00:30:10.119 anytime you see someone of the giant Hordish collection of 575 00:30:10.680 --> 00:30:13.200 any Chandre and he had a horror crime fiction like 576 00:30:13.440 --> 00:30:17.440 you know, you see an obsessimist quality there. I was 577 00:30:17.480 --> 00:30:18.759 on edge. You were in the middle of you know, 578 00:30:18.920 --> 00:30:21.440 like you know, western France and some small town and 579 00:30:21.480 --> 00:30:23.200 I was like, you know, he's you know, he took 580 00:30:23.279 --> 00:30:25.400 us around his home. He's you know, he was generous 581 00:30:25.440 --> 00:30:27.440 in that spirit, I guess in his home, but like 582 00:30:27.799 --> 00:30:29.519 he took us into the far reaches of his attic 583 00:30:29.640 --> 00:30:31.400 to show us different collections. And I was on the 584 00:30:31.480 --> 00:30:34.640 edge of the entire time. You know, with time I relaxed, 585 00:30:34.640 --> 00:30:39.119 but you know I found him. I didn't know what 586 00:30:39.160 --> 00:30:41.039 to expect that I wanted to be prepared for anything. 587 00:30:41.079 --> 00:30:43.000 And you know, I don't think there was a material 588 00:30:43.000 --> 00:30:46.160 physical threat, but I was very on edge with spending 589 00:30:46.200 --> 00:30:46.680 time with him. 590 00:30:47.240 --> 00:30:48.119 Well, Ben, it is. 591 00:30:48.240 --> 00:30:50.759 It is a terrific piece of work, and I know 592 00:30:50.799 --> 00:30:52.759 that you've put in a lot of work in this career. 593 00:30:53.119 --> 00:30:54.880 So I want people to watch it. Go check it 594 00:30:54.920 --> 00:30:55.599 out on Hulu. 595 00:30:55.640 --> 00:30:59.880 Produced by National Geographic Game by Hulu, directed by Ben Selke. 596 00:31:00.039 --> 00:31:03.680 Know Killer Lies Chasing a true crime con man. But 597 00:31:03.759 --> 00:31:06.359 before I let you go. I do have to ask 598 00:31:06.400 --> 00:31:08.799 you that I did notice you are a production assistant. 599 00:31:09.480 --> 00:31:13.680 I believe was it on Meet the Parents? 600 00:31:14.119 --> 00:31:15.920 I was a production assistant I Meet the Parents? 601 00:31:15.960 --> 00:31:17.440 Okay, So here's my question. 602 00:31:17.920 --> 00:31:19.880 In Twenty eight Days, which I'd loved, by the way, 603 00:31:20.160 --> 00:31:23.680 with Vigo Mortensen and Sandra Bullock, why did you leave 604 00:31:24.240 --> 00:31:27.400 that type of entertainment to go into what you're doing now? 605 00:31:27.519 --> 00:31:29.960 Because I know what you do now takes a lot 606 00:31:29.960 --> 00:31:33.960 of work and it's big. I mean, you know, being 607 00:31:34.000 --> 00:31:36.599 a documentarian right now is really a good place to 608 00:31:36.640 --> 00:31:40.960 be in this business and it's booming quite frankly. People 609 00:31:41.039 --> 00:31:44.359 love documentaries, they love the true crime. But what led 610 00:31:44.440 --> 00:31:46.880 you to go from scripted into this world? 611 00:31:47.680 --> 00:31:50.480 It's funny, you know. I went to college and studied, 612 00:31:50.559 --> 00:31:52.200 you know, film, and thought I was going to be 613 00:31:52.200 --> 00:31:54.960 a screenwriter, you know, got out of college and realized 614 00:31:55.000 --> 00:31:57.519 they don't give you the keys of the studio, you know, 615 00:31:57.640 --> 00:31:59.640 just as a college with a college degree, right you know, 616 00:32:00.119 --> 00:32:05.200 started teaching, you know, and you know, having time thinking 617 00:32:05.240 --> 00:32:06.680 I was having time to write. I happened to have 618 00:32:06.960 --> 00:32:11.200 Harrison Ford's daughter in my class, and his wife was 619 00:32:11.200 --> 00:32:14.559 a screenwriter. She wrote the team Melissa Mathesons, and so 620 00:32:17.200 --> 00:32:20.440 Be befriended them somehow, and by the grace of the 621 00:32:20.440 --> 00:32:23.759 cinema gods, invited me to work on his film in 622 00:32:24.039 --> 00:32:27.440 nineteen ninety nine called a Random Park. So that was 623 00:32:27.440 --> 00:32:29.720 my entree to the film business as a production assistant. 624 00:32:29.720 --> 00:32:32.119 I went in as what they call silver spoon, someone 625 00:32:32.359 --> 00:32:34.599 who with the nepotism right. So I got into set 626 00:32:34.640 --> 00:32:38.160 and all these hard working production assistants and grinding trying 627 00:32:38.160 --> 00:32:40.599 to get their DGA days, and you know, they and 628 00:32:40.680 --> 00:32:43.079 here I am with a brand new like rebook, you know, 629 00:32:43.279 --> 00:32:46.559 iris and choose and you know, great attitude. I had 630 00:32:46.599 --> 00:32:49.279 screen ground down yet and they were but useless. But 631 00:32:49.359 --> 00:32:51.240 they took me under the wing and I eventually, you know, 632 00:32:51.240 --> 00:32:53.400 I learned the craft and the trade of being a 633 00:32:53.400 --> 00:32:56.240 production assistant and working for assistant directors. But that path 634 00:32:56.359 --> 00:32:59.279 is a really long long path, and I, you know, 635 00:32:59.480 --> 00:33:04.200 ultimately wanted to be a director, a creative And after 636 00:33:04.240 --> 00:33:06.759 about two years of working in documentary, I mean in 637 00:33:07.200 --> 00:33:10.160 scripted films, you know, working with the very best decision directors, 638 00:33:10.200 --> 00:33:12.880 learning a ton about how to run a set, you know, 639 00:33:12.920 --> 00:33:15.880 I bought a camera and started making the first documentary 640 00:33:15.920 --> 00:33:18.799 because I wanted to be literally close to the camera. 641 00:33:18.880 --> 00:33:21.680 I felt like the proximity to the camera was where 642 00:33:21.680 --> 00:33:24.000 the creative decisions were happening, and as a production system 643 00:33:24.039 --> 00:33:27.039 I had access to be near it, but not making decisions, 644 00:33:27.079 --> 00:33:28.920 but by in the documentary I felt like, well, I 645 00:33:28.920 --> 00:33:33.039 can you know, activate my own agency creatively. I didn't 646 00:33:33.079 --> 00:33:36.200 know it would be such a hard, long life of 647 00:33:36.279 --> 00:33:39.440 you know, putting in many, many, many years, but you know, 648 00:33:39.640 --> 00:33:41.400 very you know, have a lot of gratitude for all 649 00:33:41.400 --> 00:33:43.440 the people along the way who you know, helped pull 650 00:33:43.519 --> 00:33:47.160 me along and collaborated to make projects like this one. 651 00:33:47.720 --> 00:33:49.880 But you know, ultimately it was about having kind of 652 00:33:49.960 --> 00:33:53.079 you know, immediacy, uh and being in the center of 653 00:33:53.079 --> 00:33:55.960 the creative process. And that was the part of documentary filmmaking, 654 00:33:56.039 --> 00:34:00.039 storytellings I love, and documentaries you know, in way I 655 00:34:00.039 --> 00:34:02.160 can two thousands felt like the way to be at 656 00:34:02.160 --> 00:34:03.799 that center that you know, where that was the heat 657 00:34:03.839 --> 00:34:06.279 was burning, you know, most intensely, and that's where I 658 00:34:06.319 --> 00:34:06.759 wanted to be. 659 00:34:06.960 --> 00:34:08.960 Why do you think it's so popular now? And I'll 660 00:34:09.000 --> 00:34:11.280 throw podcasting there as well. I mean my wife who 661 00:34:11.400 --> 00:34:14.719 you know, well, Randy, I mean, she loves true crime podcasts. 662 00:34:14.760 --> 00:34:16.199 We get in the car and I'm like, what are 663 00:34:16.199 --> 00:34:18.599 we listening to? You know, can I just you know, 664 00:34:18.800 --> 00:34:22.800 what are we doing here? And the craziest, creepiest stuff. 665 00:34:23.559 --> 00:34:27.679 People love true crime, but people also love documentaries now, 666 00:34:27.719 --> 00:34:29.639 and I think one of the reasons, I think is 667 00:34:29.679 --> 00:34:33.840 because there's a lot of footage available. Right there's a 668 00:34:33.880 --> 00:34:36.360 lot of there's a lot of great stories, whether it 669 00:34:36.480 --> 00:34:41.320 be from music or from entertainment or from politics. There's 670 00:34:41.400 --> 00:34:44.480 a lot of stories. There's a lot of film footage available, 671 00:34:44.719 --> 00:34:46.760 and a lot of people you can talk to where 672 00:34:46.760 --> 00:34:49.840 you can create a documentary like you have. 673 00:34:50.320 --> 00:34:52.800 That brings the same drama of a feature film. 674 00:34:53.920 --> 00:34:56.320 Oh Like they say truth is stranger than friction, you 675 00:34:56.320 --> 00:35:00.599 know fiction, and you know, and you know you ultimately 676 00:35:01.559 --> 00:35:05.159 we're most interested in the unknown. We're interested in the 677 00:35:05.480 --> 00:35:10.440 kind of boundaries and depths of human behavior and getting 678 00:35:10.480 --> 00:35:13.760 us close to that kind of flip of the switch 679 00:35:13.800 --> 00:35:16.639 when things, you know, go the other way, when civility 680 00:35:16.719 --> 00:35:20.280 is left and horror and violence, when people want to 681 00:35:20.280 --> 00:35:24.320 know where that edge is. And so true crime nonfiction 682 00:35:24.559 --> 00:35:29.440 allows that safe exploration through you know, human behavior, and 683 00:35:29.480 --> 00:35:31.559 it's like, you know, it's like why we rubber neck 684 00:35:31.599 --> 00:35:36.639 it's why we can't look away. It's because it's a 685 00:35:37.480 --> 00:35:42.039 opportunity to touch death, the ends of finality, to touch 686 00:35:42.079 --> 00:35:46.480 the unknown, to touch what we might be capable of, 687 00:35:46.639 --> 00:35:49.880 or how we might react when when encountering something you know, 688 00:35:50.000 --> 00:35:54.039 so so extreme. And I think that's all of those things. 689 00:35:54.199 --> 00:35:56.440 There's different reasons why people watch through crime while they 690 00:35:56.480 --> 00:35:58.800 watch documentaries, but those those are some in the true 691 00:35:58.800 --> 00:36:01.519 crime space that seem you know, really applicable, really human, 692 00:36:01.559 --> 00:36:04.679 really accessible, and it's fact that you know, it's not 693 00:36:04.760 --> 00:36:08.079 something exotic far away, it's something in our backyards, our neighbors, 694 00:36:08.079 --> 00:36:11.880 our family members, like it's around us, and so understanding 695 00:36:11.880 --> 00:36:15.280 it better baby gives us some feeling of agency and 696 00:36:15.360 --> 00:36:17.440 power that we might be able to sniff it out 697 00:36:17.519 --> 00:36:21.320 or participate or detect it or save ourselves or are 698 00:36:21.400 --> 00:36:23.239 curious about, you know, what our own limits are. How 699 00:36:23.239 --> 00:36:25.519 would we deeled it if we were in the it 700 00:36:25.559 --> 00:36:27.559 was in our face, And so I think that's why 701 00:36:27.559 --> 00:36:30.079 people want to do it. And then people are smart. 702 00:36:30.079 --> 00:36:33.079 They want to outwit the police, they want out with 703 00:36:33.199 --> 00:36:36.079 the investigators, they want to they don't want to be 704 00:36:36.119 --> 00:36:38.559 a mark. And so you know, somehow true crime becomes 705 00:36:38.559 --> 00:36:40.360 like a training ground to to not be a mark 706 00:36:40.480 --> 00:36:45.239 and to to to gain skill and investigation. And you know, 707 00:36:45.280 --> 00:36:47.880 and as a filmmaker, you know, audiences are really smart 708 00:36:47.960 --> 00:36:48.800 right now, and. 709 00:36:48.679 --> 00:36:51.679 So they are that's exactly right. They are very smart. 710 00:36:52.480 --> 00:36:55.159 You just nailed it. The audience who has become better 711 00:36:55.320 --> 00:36:57.639 educated over time, but. 712 00:36:57.679 --> 00:37:00.960 Not just not just in you know, crime is you 713 00:37:01.000 --> 00:37:04.000 know as a field of forensics, but also in filmmaking. 714 00:37:04.280 --> 00:37:06.639 And so you can't trick an audience, you'll betray it. 715 00:37:06.760 --> 00:37:09.119 You know, you can't participate the way Bourguan it did 716 00:37:09.440 --> 00:37:12.440 and betraying people. As a filmmaker, you can't misdirect them 717 00:37:12.480 --> 00:37:15.440 and and you know you can't, like there's no there's 718 00:37:15.440 --> 00:37:17.960 no cheeko, there's no lazy filmmaking. 719 00:37:18.000 --> 00:37:18.119 Now. 720 00:37:18.159 --> 00:37:20.320 The audiences are too smart and so you have to 721 00:37:20.440 --> 00:37:22.760 respect the hell out of them, and you know and 722 00:37:22.800 --> 00:37:25.760 make work that you know expects a lot of them, 723 00:37:25.840 --> 00:37:28.039 because you know they're educated or smart with both the 724 00:37:28.079 --> 00:37:31.199 craft of filmmaking and and TV as well as you 725 00:37:31.239 --> 00:37:33.159 know around true crime. And so you know you can't 726 00:37:33.159 --> 00:37:34.599 play with them. You have to you have to be 727 00:37:35.199 --> 00:37:37.440 you know, both artful, intelligent and try to stay a 728 00:37:37.440 --> 00:37:39.599 step ahead. But it's very difficult and your audiences are 729 00:37:40.599 --> 00:37:43.000 maximum respect right now. And so the challenge is a. 730 00:37:42.960 --> 00:37:45.840 Filmmaker, Well you did a great job killer lies chasing 731 00:37:45.880 --> 00:37:48.760 a true crime con man and stefan by going he 732 00:37:49.000 --> 00:37:52.559 is this dude is a serial killer expert, but he 733 00:37:52.760 --> 00:37:55.320 was really a fraud and made a lot of it 734 00:37:55.440 --> 00:37:57.440 up and turned out to be quite a sick man. 735 00:37:58.119 --> 00:38:01.159 And you should watch it on Hulu. Produced by National 736 00:38:01.239 --> 00:38:04.639 Geographic and Hulu and it's streaming right now. Three part series. 737 00:38:04.920 --> 00:38:07.599 Well produced, well done, well directed. Ben, Thanks for coming on. 738 00:38:07.679 --> 00:38:08.800 I wish you the best of luck. 739 00:38:09.760 --> 00:38:12.760 Thanks so masche for having me on. And yeah, look 740 00:38:12.800 --> 00:38:15.239 forward to hearing the audience's responses. 741 00:38:15.719 --> 00:38:17.719 All right, Bet, I'll talk to you soon, buddy, take care. 742 00:38:19.199 --> 00:38:22.239 All right, there's Ben Stelko joining us here. It's a 743 00:38:22.360 --> 00:38:25.360 crazy story, it really is. It's kind of you know, 744 00:38:25.440 --> 00:38:27.719 as I'm watching this someway, where's this going? Okay, we're 745 00:38:27.760 --> 00:38:30.239 talking about serial killers and he's talking to some real 746 00:38:30.320 --> 00:38:35.199 creepy people. But the serial killer expert turned out to 747 00:38:35.280 --> 00:38:38.920 be pretty creeping himself. No, he didn't go as far 748 00:38:39.079 --> 00:38:41.679 as the people he was covering, the serial killers, but 749 00:38:41.800 --> 00:38:45.639 he turned into a serial liar, serial plagiarist, played with 750 00:38:45.719 --> 00:38:48.880 a lot of people's emotions, passed himself off as an expert, 751 00:38:49.800 --> 00:38:53.480 became involved in criminal investigations. And the thing that's really 752 00:38:53.519 --> 00:38:57.880 amazing about this, when things happen like this, nobody questioned them, Yeah, okay, 753 00:38:58.000 --> 00:38:58.559 must be true. 754 00:38:58.960 --> 00:39:01.440 Yeah, they all bought in good stuff. 755 00:39:01.519 --> 00:39:03.639 Check it out Killer Lies Chasing a True crime con 756 00:39:03.760 --> 00:39:08.559 Man and it is streaming on Hulu. Coming up eleven 757 00:39:08.559 --> 00:39:10.719 o'clock tonight, we're gonna talk a little football. Nicole Yang 758 00:39:10.800 --> 00:39:12.840 joins us from the Boston Globe as we get ready 759 00:39:12.840 --> 00:39:14.960 for that Patriot. Somebody asked me today how many games 760 00:39:15.000 --> 00:39:17.440 are the Patriots gonna win? I go, doesn't matter. 761 00:39:18.400 --> 00:39:21.599 Five at the most, at the most. And you need 762 00:39:21.679 --> 00:39:24.360 to be okay with that, people, you need to be 763 00:39:24.639 --> 00:39:25.480 okay with that. 764 00:39:26.639 --> 00:39:29.800 Coming up at ten o'clock, I will talk to author 765 00:39:29.920 --> 00:39:34.679 Christy Cashman about her book The Truth About Horses, terrific 766 00:39:34.760 --> 00:39:37.079 story about a fourteen year old girl rhis Tucker. That's 767 00:39:37.119 --> 00:39:39.320 all a ten and I have some news to talk 768 00:39:39.320 --> 00:39:41.559 to you about coming up next, involving that school shooting 769 00:39:41.760 --> 00:39:43.519 in Georgia. On wbz's Night Side. 770 00:39:44.679 --> 00:39:47.639 Now back to Dan Ray Live from the Window World 771 00:39:47.800 --> 00:39:50.880 Night Side Studios on WBZ News Radio. 772 00:39:54.800 --> 00:39:58.360 Welcome back, Gary Tangway for Dan ray tonight, so an 773 00:39:58.440 --> 00:40:04.119 updated on the Georgia shooting as the father of the 774 00:40:04.559 --> 00:40:08.119 Georgia school suspect has been arrested in charge with second 775 00:40:08.199 --> 00:40:11.599 degree murder amongst the charges. Well, that's one of the chargers, 776 00:40:11.639 --> 00:40:14.800 the father of fourteen year old the fourteen year old 777 00:40:14.800 --> 00:40:18.960 boy called Gray. His father has been arrested and faces 778 00:40:19.079 --> 00:40:22.480 charges including second degree murder and involuntary manslaughter for allowing 779 00:40:22.519 --> 00:40:25.800 his son to possess a weapon. It's the latest example 780 00:40:25.840 --> 00:40:28.159 of prosecutors holding and I'm reading from the Boston Globe, 781 00:40:28.239 --> 00:40:31.840 so just to give them credit, the latest, say, the 782 00:40:31.960 --> 00:40:35.039 example of prosecutors holding parents responsible for their children's actions 783 00:40:35.440 --> 00:40:39.840 in school shootings. We all remember what Michigan right with 784 00:40:39.920 --> 00:40:44.199 the Crumpleys. They were convicted. That was crazy and they 785 00:40:44.239 --> 00:40:45.159 got ten years in prison. 786 00:40:46.239 --> 00:40:48.360 That was crazy. The mom and dad were like, yeah, 787 00:40:48.400 --> 00:40:50.800 I mean they brought him to school with the Crumblings 788 00:40:50.800 --> 00:40:52.480 and mission. They brought him to school that morning and 789 00:40:52.519 --> 00:40:55.599 said listen, we're worried about your son. They just blew 790 00:40:55.639 --> 00:41:00.280 it off. They just absolutely just blew it up off. 791 00:41:02.639 --> 00:41:06.039 So Colin Gray fifty four years old. 792 00:41:06.039 --> 00:41:08.559 The father of Colt Gray was charged with four counts 793 00:41:08.559 --> 00:41:12.440 of involuntary manslaughter, two counts of second degree murder, eight 794 00:41:12.519 --> 00:41:18.119 counts of cruelty to children. These charges stem from mister 795 00:41:18.199 --> 00:41:20.840 Gray knowingly allowing his son cult to possess a weapon. 796 00:41:23.559 --> 00:41:25.760 Charges are directly connected to the actions of his son 797 00:41:25.840 --> 00:41:28.280 and allowing him to possess weapon. Now, from what I understand, 798 00:41:28.320 --> 00:41:31.000 there were warning signs with his son Clt before this. 799 00:41:34.960 --> 00:41:36.800 Boy. It's a tough one because. 800 00:41:36.559 --> 00:41:39.760 Look, I have hunters in my family, and when you're 801 00:41:39.800 --> 00:41:44.239 fourteen fifteen years old, that's when you start to go 802 00:41:44.360 --> 00:41:47.199 hunting with your father, your mother, and your uncles and 803 00:41:47.239 --> 00:41:48.280 your brothers and sisters. 804 00:41:48.360 --> 00:41:50.159 And it's a thing. 805 00:41:50.239 --> 00:41:52.960 And I'm fine, you know personally, Like I said, I 806 00:41:53.039 --> 00:41:55.679 have relatives that have guns in the house and they 807 00:41:55.719 --> 00:41:57.960 separate the ammunition from the guns, and they have locked 808 00:41:58.000 --> 00:41:59.960 gun racks and very responsible gun owner. 809 00:42:00.000 --> 00:42:08.519 There's no problem with that. But there's a history with 810 00:42:08.679 --> 00:42:13.320 the young man. You gotta lock up the guns, you 811 00:42:13.400 --> 00:42:16.159 gotta lock up the guns. I mean, something has to happen. 812 00:42:18.320 --> 00:42:20.559 Because when it comes to America in school shootings and 813 00:42:20.599 --> 00:42:23.599 public shootings, I mean, it is just rampant It is 814 00:42:23.760 --> 00:42:27.480 just scary. Is my numbing that this is happening and 815 00:42:27.559 --> 00:42:29.800 we're numb? I mean, I say my numbing, we're numb 816 00:42:29.880 --> 00:42:32.960 to it? Or another school shooting. Oh okay, we are 817 00:42:33.039 --> 00:42:38.639 absolutely numb to this, which is scary as hell. Maybe 818 00:42:38.679 --> 00:42:40.599 the only way to stop it or prevent it from 819 00:42:40.639 --> 00:42:45.960 happening again is to hold the parents accountable, lock up 820 00:42:46.000 --> 00:42:50.599 the weapons. It's a tough one, but we're in a 821 00:42:50.679 --> 00:42:56.119 desperate time with this, a very desperate time with this, 822 00:42:58.159 --> 00:43:01.519 because this is coming. This has become the norm much 823 00:43:02.079 --> 00:43:06.880 too often. Sure, we'll have more on that coming up 824 00:43:06.880 --> 00:43:10.519 to the News at ten o'clock. Still to come. On 825 00:43:10.719 --> 00:43:13.480 wbz's Night Side, we'll talk about the Patriots upcoming season. 826 00:43:13.519 --> 00:43:18.360 That's at eleven o'clock when Nicole Yang and Christy Cashwo's 827 00:43:18.360 --> 00:43:22.039 going to join me next and Christie does just about everything, 828 00:43:22.159 --> 00:43:26.400 including on a castle. I believe that it's next on WBZ.