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<v Speaker 1>Hey everybody, and Welcome to Life is a Gamble. It's

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<v Speaker 1>been a while since I dropped one of these episodes,

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<v Speaker 1>but I am back. And before we jump into today's guest,

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<v Speaker 1>I just want to say you can always reach me

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<v Speaker 1>at Life is a gamblepod at gmail dot com and

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<v Speaker 1>you can find me on Twitter at RWM twenty one.

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<v Speaker 1>My guest today is Andrew Wimhurst and he has a

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<v Speaker 1>new book out called Thieving Bastards Through Confessions of the

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<v Speaker 1>World's Greatest Cheats. So Andrew, Welcome to Life is a Gamble.

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<v Speaker 2>Hey, Richard, thanks very much for having me on the show.

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<v Speaker 2>I appreciate it.

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<v Speaker 1>So as I understand it, this book was thirty years

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<v Speaker 1>in the making. Is that correct.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's right. I've been working on for thirty years.

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<v Speaker 2>I've been recording interviews with people for thirty years that've

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<v Speaker 2>been sitting in boxes and in my study in all

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<v Speaker 2>that time, traveling to America to meet people, sit down

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<v Speaker 2>with people and have conversations. But yeah, the idea for

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<v Speaker 2>this book started in the eighties.

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<v Speaker 1>So it really you were planning to make it as

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<v Speaker 1>a book as opposed to just interviewing these guys for

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<v Speaker 1>your own edification.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's right. So I'm a big fan of books

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<v Speaker 2>that are about interviews with people. I just find that

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<v Speaker 2>books of interviews are like an unfiltered experience. You can

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<v Speaker 2>really understand the way a person thinks and what's happened

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<v Speaker 2>in their life, and what the psychology is behind you know,

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<v Speaker 2>what motivates them. I think it's just fascinating. In fact,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm a big fan of all of these books. I've

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<v Speaker 2>really enjoyed your book Gambling Wizards, which I've had a

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<v Speaker 2>chance to read lately. I haven't had a chance to

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<v Speaker 2>read a lot of books in the last few years

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<v Speaker 2>because I've been focusing on this book. But I've been

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<v Speaker 2>reading your book and really really enjoyed it.

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<v Speaker 1>So thank you.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I read a book. I read a book in

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<v Speaker 2>the eighties called Cops Their Lives in their Own Words

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<v Speaker 2>by a guy called Mark Baker. It's published in about

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<v Speaker 2>eighty five, and I just found it really fascinating. That

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<v Speaker 2>was when I really started to get interested. This is

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<v Speaker 2>as a teenager, and then I sort of drifted into

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<v Speaker 2>an interest in card magic, which quickly became an interest

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<v Speaker 2>in cheating at cards, which has been a strong passion

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<v Speaker 2>for many years. And I was in the National Library

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<v Speaker 2>in Australia, and I found a book in the stacks

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<v Speaker 2>there called Road Hustler by Robert Pruce, and it's a

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<v Speaker 2>sociological study of professional card cheats in North America and

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<v Speaker 2>Canada and up in the sort of the Eastern States.

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<v Speaker 2>And the book originated with he had a student who

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<v Speaker 2>was a former cheat in one of his classes and

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<v Speaker 2>let slip that this was his background, and so in

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<v Speaker 2>writing this book, he includes a bunch of anecdotes from

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<v Speaker 2>that sheet, some short paragraphs about what it's like to

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<v Speaker 2>be a cheat and so on. And as I was

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<v Speaker 2>reading those, I just found them absolutely fascinating, really really fascinating,

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<v Speaker 2>And I thought to myself back then, wouldn't it be

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<v Speaker 2>great to have a book that was like Mark Baker's Cops,

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<v Speaker 2>but was about professional cheats. And that's where it started.

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<v Speaker 2>And I never stopped thinking about that, and I wasn't

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<v Speaker 2>sure I'd be able to make it work. But over

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<v Speaker 2>time I got lucky and with some hard work, I

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<v Speaker 2>actually was able to put together enough information and contacts

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<v Speaker 2>to actually put the book together.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I would assume it was very difficult to get

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<v Speaker 1>these guys to talk to you.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, definitely, it's a long, long process to do that,

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<v Speaker 2>and I started with early contacts and I built from

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<v Speaker 2>one contact into multiple contacts, and I built over the years.

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<v Speaker 2>So when I was young, I was into card magic

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<v Speaker 2>and I was into cheating stuff, and I started working

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<v Speaker 2>doing shows demonstrated in cheating techniques here in Australia, and

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<v Speaker 2>in doing that and looking around at the different people

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<v Speaker 2>who were doing that sort of work, I came across

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<v Speaker 2>a guy called Darwin Ortiz, who was a card magician

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<v Speaker 2>passed away a couple of years ago, and as a

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<v Speaker 2>young kid, I wrote to him. A letter came back

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<v Speaker 2>from him and we started a friendship and we became

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<v Speaker 2>very very good friends over the year. So he became

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<v Speaker 2>one of my closest friends. I knew him for thirty years,

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<v Speaker 2>and you know, he's the first person that I spoke

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<v Speaker 2>to about this. And I know that Darwin had written

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<v Speaker 2>a book called Gambling Scams, which was published in the eighties,

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<v Speaker 2>and that book includes a couple of anecdotes from the

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<v Speaker 2>contacts that he had. Because he grew up in the Bronx,

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<v Speaker 2>he hung around with people involved in cheating. He was

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<v Speaker 2>connected to an underground supply house in New York city,

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<v Speaker 2>which was one of the big, biggest ones in the country.

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<v Speaker 2>He had close friends in there, and he was the

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<v Speaker 2>person who gave me my first couple of contacts. But

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<v Speaker 2>I told him about the book idea. He thought it

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<v Speaker 2>was a great idea, and you know, he just knew

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<v Speaker 2>I had a passion for it and he trusted me.

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<v Speaker 2>So he actually trusted me with his contacts and set

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<v Speaker 2>me up with a couple of guys and had started

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<v Speaker 2>from there. Now, none of those guys are in the book,

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<v Speaker 2>but the original no, no, no, no no. In fact,

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<v Speaker 2>in fact, one of those guys was my first major rejection.

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<v Speaker 2>This is the guy that hung up in my ear.

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<v Speaker 2>He said he wasn't a snitch. This is the guy that, yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, and I'm okay with that. I perfectly understand that.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, I've always been very upfront with the people

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<v Speaker 2>that I interview that I want to build a trust

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<v Speaker 2>relationship where they can trust that I'm not going to

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<v Speaker 2>put anything in any of these books that they don't

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<v Speaker 2>want to have a peer in the books. So anyway,

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<v Speaker 2>that guy that sort of closed off to me that

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<v Speaker 2>one relationship. But that guy was long retired. He ran

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<v Speaker 2>a big underground cheating supply house. When I spoke to him,

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<v Speaker 2>He's in Florida, and he said, I'm not a snitch,

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<v Speaker 2>and and I kind of get it because there are

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<v Speaker 2>some people that I've interviewed. All of the people I've

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<v Speaker 2>interviewed have strong connections to criminal activity, but a couple

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<v Speaker 2>of people that I've spoken to had connections to you know,

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<v Speaker 2>the mob, for example, and those people really aren't interested

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<v Speaker 2>in having their stuff appear in the book. It becomes

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<v Speaker 2>quite sensitive for those people. And so I totally get that.

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<v Speaker 2>And he was heavily involved in supplying equipment to underground

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<v Speaker 2>clubs on the East Coast for decades. And the company

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<v Speaker 2>goes back one hundred year is it's not one of

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<v Speaker 2>it's not Casey Card company, it's not one of those companies,

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<v Speaker 2>but it's another company in New York City that was

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<v Speaker 2>in the garment district. And in fact, he was the

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<v Speaker 2>first person that I met. I remember, I traveled to

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<v Speaker 2>the States to visit Darwin and to go to Vegas

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<v Speaker 2>and some other places and go and set me up

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<v Speaker 2>with a meeting with this guy. And it was one

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<v Speaker 2>really hot summer's day and I went to the garment

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<v Speaker 2>district and knocked on this door, and this huge bear

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<v Speaker 2>of a man greeted me at the door, and he

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<v Speaker 2>looked like Danny A. Lo the actor, you know, this

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<v Speaker 2>big Jewish dude, and yeah, he had this underground supply company.

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<v Speaker 2>He took me in, showed me what was happening in

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<v Speaker 2>the room. At the front, they had all of these

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<v Speaker 2>are Hispanic ladies who were marking playing cards and cutting

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<v Speaker 2>playing cards and repackaging them in the boxes so that

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<v Speaker 2>the boxes looked perfect, and then they would resell them

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<v Speaker 2>and so that people across the country could order any

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<v Speaker 2>style of card they wanted marked in a system that

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<v Speaker 2>they preferred or shaved so that they could be stripped

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<v Speaker 2>for gin or whatever the game was, and they would

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<v Speaker 2>mail them out to all their customers across you know,

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<v Speaker 2>New York State and across the country. And then at

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<v Speaker 2>the back there are a bunch of guys who were

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<v Speaker 2>all out there working on loading dice and you know,

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<v Speaker 2>flattening dice, six ass flats and magnetic dice, and they

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<v Speaker 2>had read tables they were building and all sorts of stuff.

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<v Speaker 2>So it was quite in my opening experience, Wow, are

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<v Speaker 2>they still in business? That company's not in business as

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<v Speaker 2>far as I'm aware. Yeah, you know a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>these companies were shut down in the early sixties to yep,

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<v Speaker 2>going no, no.

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<v Speaker 1>I I was just going to say that. I when

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<v Speaker 1>I was trying to get people to do interviews for

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<v Speaker 1>my book, I told them, you know, I would try

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<v Speaker 1>transcribe our conversation and edit it, and then before I

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<v Speaker 1>showed it to anybody, I would give it back to

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<v Speaker 1>them and they could go through it, and anything they

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<v Speaker 1>wanted cut would be cut, you know. And fortunately that

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<v Speaker 1>was enough to get people to talk to me. And

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<v Speaker 1>usually if I didn't already know them personally, at least

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<v Speaker 1>I had some you know, goal between friend that knew

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<v Speaker 1>both of us pretty well.

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<v Speaker 2>So yeah, so that's exactly my experience, the same thing.

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<v Speaker 2>And in fact, it's funny that your book and my

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<v Speaker 2>book are kind of the poll or opposites, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>gambling wizards, thieving bastards. It's like the two hinds of

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<v Speaker 2>the spectrum.

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<v Speaker 1>You know.

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<v Speaker 2>It's interesting. Yeah, I find that quite amusing. But yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>I when I interview people, and I'm still interviewing people.

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<v Speaker 2>I did a big interviewer a couple of weeks ago

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<v Speaker 2>with a guy who was a pool hustler in the seventies,

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<v Speaker 2>and there's some really interesting stories about pull hustling in

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<v Speaker 2>Los Angeles at the time and up and down the

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<v Speaker 2>West Coast. So looking forward to actually working on that.

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<v Speaker 2>But every person that I've spoken to, that's been my

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<v Speaker 2>system that I take the material, I do an audio recording,

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<v Speaker 2>I transcribe it. I don't you know, all of this

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<v Speaker 2>done with all of this stuff was unmandrolically by hand.

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<v Speaker 2>He knews Ai. AI didn't exist when I was doing

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<v Speaker 2>this sort of stuff, listening to the stuff and just

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<v Speaker 2>doing that laborious process of transcribing it, cleaning it up

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<v Speaker 2>and then so what I would do is, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>some of the guys that I spoke to were actually

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<v Speaker 2>quite elderly people who'd been cheating in the forties and fifties.

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<v Speaker 2>And there's a guy who's in volume two, for example,

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<v Speaker 2>who was a crew hustler on the West Coast out

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<v Speaker 2>of New York but moved to the West Coast. A

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<v Speaker 2>lot of these guys are older. They're very hard to

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<v Speaker 2>understand when you speak to them. You know, their voices

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<v Speaker 2>are all broken free age and everything, and they ramble,

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<v Speaker 2>and they sometimes they'll come and tell a story four

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<v Speaker 2>or five different ways. And some of these interviews that

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<v Speaker 2>I've done are multiple interview sessions. So I've got hours

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<v Speaker 2>and hours of interviews with these guys, and I've transcribed

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<v Speaker 2>all of those interviews, and then I've gone back and

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<v Speaker 2>if they tell a really interesting story, but they might

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<v Speaker 2>come back to it, because you know, being of a

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<v Speaker 2>certain age, you'd forget you've told a story. I'll come

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<v Speaker 2>back to it and they might have a fresh spin

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<v Speaker 2>on it, or they have a very funny way of

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<v Speaker 2>expressing it in one story that they don't do it

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<v Speaker 2>in the first iteration. So I'll go back and I'll

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<v Speaker 2>just take the best bit and just cram it together,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, so I'll connect it so that it reads

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<v Speaker 2>as well as it can. And then and then, just

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<v Speaker 2>as you do, I would email it to the guy

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<v Speaker 2>and we go through it and they say, look, I'm

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<v Speaker 2>not happy about this or whatever, I'm happy about that.

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<v Speaker 2>And some of them are quite surprised, you know. Some

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<v Speaker 2>of them are like, didn't realize I swore so much.

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<v Speaker 2>Because there's a lot of vulgarity in some of these stories,

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<v Speaker 2>and especially the guy Bobby Machines, who was a practicing attorney.

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<v Speaker 2>He was like shocked at the language that had sort

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<v Speaker 2>of come out in the interview because he wouldn't speak

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<v Speaker 2>like that in his professional life.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, he was really interest.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm just going to say one I was just going

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<v Speaker 2>to say one more thing is that some of the

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<v Speaker 2>stuff that's like the book is warts and all. There's

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of warts and all stuff in there, and

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<v Speaker 2>you know, some sort of shocking revelations for some people

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<v Speaker 2>who sometimes knew some of these people, not realizing the

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<v Speaker 2>extent of that, for example, their drug dependency and all

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<v Speaker 2>that sort of stuff that they'd been through, or being

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<v Speaker 2>in the life where you're involved in other criminal activity

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<v Speaker 2>that's not necessarily accept behavior and polite society. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>people who were pimping, working miss pimps, as well as

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<v Speaker 2>cheats and that sort of stuff. So a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>that stuff's in the book, but there's sort of a

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<v Speaker 2>line that I drew where I didn't go beyond a

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<v Speaker 2>certain point with detail. You know, with some of this

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<v Speaker 2>stuff gets even worse than that with some of these people,

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<v Speaker 2>and I just sort of left that out. Or some

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<v Speaker 2>of these cheats would come back and they'd look at

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<v Speaker 2>something they said about somebody and if it was a

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<v Speaker 2>negative thing and the person was long dead then that

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<v Speaker 2>you know, they'd say, okay, I'm fine with that. But

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<v Speaker 2>they also would sometimes say negative things about people who

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<v Speaker 2>are still around and we would talk about that and

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<v Speaker 2>I'd say, well, maybe we should leave that out. So

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<v Speaker 2>there's a bit of that stuff that's removed.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you know, the cheating landscape has changed tremendously over

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<v Speaker 1>the last fifty sixty years, and a lot of the

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<v Speaker 1>cheating that was going on back then. In Guardena, California,

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<v Speaker 1>they had these poker clubs. They still have poker clubs there,

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<v Speaker 1>but back then the players dealt the cars and the

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<v Speaker 1>deal was passed around, So there was just rampant cheating there.

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<v Speaker 1>And on the East Coast and in the Midwest, there

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<v Speaker 1>were a lot of these games that were in Elks clubs,

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<v Speaker 1>moose clubs, or these these picnics where they would set

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<v Speaker 1>up these you know, casino nights. And but that landscape

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<v Speaker 1>has really changed. Have you been able to inter and

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<v Speaker 1>the people in your book really are kind of from

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<v Speaker 1>that older era. Are there people that you've interviewed that

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<v Speaker 1>are in the modern era? And I would think if

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<v Speaker 1>a guy is still out there doing it, he'd be

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<v Speaker 1>much less likely to want to talk to you about it.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so that's that's one hundred percent right. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>I know people who are doing stuff now, and those

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<v Speaker 2>people aren't really aren't interested in talking about what they're doing. Now.

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<v Speaker 2>A lot of that older stuff has been exposed that

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<v Speaker 2>the game procedures have changed to eliminate the opportunities that

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<v Speaker 2>used to exist back in the day. As you will know,

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<v Speaker 2>there's pass the deck poker is you know, it's long gone,

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<v Speaker 2>so a lot of that sort of and draw poker

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<v Speaker 2>is not the game anymore. All of those opportunities are

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<v Speaker 2>sort of closed off for these people. But things that

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<v Speaker 2>apt and people have adapted certain things to suit the

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<v Speaker 2>modern age, and of course stuff is still going on.

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<v Speaker 2>There's some very sophisticated stuff going on that I'm aware

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<v Speaker 2>of that I just I'm not really willing to talk

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<v Speaker 2>about because the people that tell me about it would

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<v Speaker 2>I'd be persona and on grod. I wouldn't be able

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<v Speaker 2>to talk to these people anymore if I did that.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, so much of that is public now because there's

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<v Speaker 1>there's a cheating scandal here in the States, like every

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<v Speaker 1>other week in poker. I mean, it's just and in

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<v Speaker 1>you know, the poker clubs and things.

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<v Speaker 2>So yeah, yeah, that's true, that's true. And of course

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<v Speaker 2>there was that big, big NBA scandal where they use

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<v Speaker 2>celebrities to get people to be comfortable with the private

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<v Speaker 2>gaming arrangements that they had set up. And I wrote

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<v Speaker 2>a couple of blogs related to that on my website

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<v Speaker 2>about the sort of lessons to be learned from that.

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<v Speaker 2>And it's quite interesting that from my perspective, is that

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<v Speaker 2>some of the technology that was used in those scans

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<v Speaker 2>is technology that was developed by one of the people

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<v Speaker 2>that I interviewed in the first book, a guy called

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<v Speaker 2>doctor X. And these are the things that they people

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<v Speaker 2>in the media call X ray tables, and they're not

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<v Speaker 2>X ray tables at all, but the technology is really

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<v Speaker 2>fascinating technology that it originates through experimentation with optical like

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<v Speaker 2>laser beams and optics that are involved in like special

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<v Speaker 2>Forces night vision goggles and all that sort of stuff.

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<v Speaker 2>It's like really interesting adaptations military technology to the sort

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<v Speaker 2>of card cheating space. And so, did you want me

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<v Speaker 2>to mention what the x X ray table is or

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<v Speaker 2>talk about.

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<v Speaker 1>That or sure, yeah, yeah, sure, yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>So when I interviewed doctor X, and I interviewed him

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<v Speaker 2>about twenty five years ago, so you know a number

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<v Speaker 2>of the interviews in this book were old interviews. And

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<v Speaker 2>I remember him telling me about the X ray table,

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<v Speaker 2>but he didn't call it the X ray table. He

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<v Speaker 2>caught it the octopus. And he caught it the octopus

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00:15:00.039 --> 00:15:02.200
<v Speaker 2>because it had like eight extensions, and so you could

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<v Speaker 2>target people around the table. And what it is is

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<v Speaker 2>it's a series of optical lasers that shoot photon beams

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<v Speaker 2>beneath the table, and the photon beams are pushed up

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<v Speaker 2>through translucent plates, plastic white plates that are underneath the table,

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<v Speaker 2>underneath the cloth, and these beams are invisible to the

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<v Speaker 2>human eye. They operate outside the spectrum of visibly for humans,

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<v Speaker 2>but they can be captured by a camera that's set

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<v Speaker 2>up to see those verbams. And what happens is they

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<v Speaker 2>burst up through the tabletop and they burst up through

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00:15:33.600 --> 00:15:36.039
<v Speaker 2>the plane cards, and the camera can capture the light

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00:15:36.080 --> 00:15:38.720
<v Speaker 2>traveling through the playing cards plastic or paper cards, it

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00:15:38.759 --> 00:15:43.679
<v Speaker 2>doesn't matter. And the ink of the pips, it doesn't

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00:15:43.679 --> 00:15:45.519
<v Speaker 2>actually burst through the ink of the pips, so you

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00:15:45.519 --> 00:15:47.399
<v Speaker 2>could actually see the pips in reverse on the camera

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00:15:47.440 --> 00:15:48.960
<v Speaker 2>which is set up in a separate room. So what

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<v Speaker 2>it is is it's an example of an elaborate peak,

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<v Speaker 2>like the peak that was at the Lambs Club all

325
00:15:54.600 --> 00:15:57.720
<v Speaker 2>those years ago, classic sort of scams, especially cheap gin

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00:15:58.519 --> 00:16:00.960
<v Speaker 2>rummy and games things like that. So it's like a

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<v Speaker 2>high tech peak technology. And I remember him telling me

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<v Speaker 2>about this. You know, they're not even my cards. The

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00:16:06.559 --> 00:16:08.279
<v Speaker 2>light goes up through the table, you know, you can

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<v Speaker 2>it's like you're reading the card from the other room.

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<v Speaker 2>You can see everything. And I remember him telling me

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<v Speaker 2>this and thinking, man, no one's going to believe this.

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<v Speaker 2>No one's going to believe this, right, And then late

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<v Speaker 2>late last year, the NBA scam broke, and I'm like,

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<v Speaker 2>thank god, you know, And so so I called the

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<v Speaker 2>the US Justice that the office in New York, and

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<v Speaker 2>I spoke to the press people there and I got

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<v Speaker 2>some photos for the book, and I was able to

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<v Speaker 2>blue that in the book.

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<v Speaker 1>So I tried to get Doctor X to come on

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<v Speaker 1>this show because he's quite a character, and but he

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00:16:42.000 --> 00:16:45.080
<v Speaker 1>he wasn't really willing to talk about the stuff that

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<v Speaker 1>I wanted to talk about, Like he likes to talk,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, he's yeah, but yeah, but but I haven't

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<v Speaker 1>been able to make that one work. And by the way,

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<v Speaker 1>just as an aside, I think you'll find, after all

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<v Speaker 1>of the hundreds of hours you were put into writing

348
00:17:02.559 --> 00:17:06.000
<v Speaker 1>this book, that the way to go is to just

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00:17:06.079 --> 00:17:09.279
<v Speaker 1>have a podcast instead, because then you get to.

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<v Speaker 2>Do the energey when you don't have to do all.

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<v Speaker 1>The grunt work of transcription, et cetera.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I totally get that, but but I you know,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm kind of old school and I love books, you know,

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00:17:20.880 --> 00:17:23.960
<v Speaker 2>and I feel that putting something in a book is

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00:17:24.039 --> 00:17:27.480
<v Speaker 2>just a really fantastic way of capturing information and people

356
00:17:27.480 --> 00:17:31.559
<v Speaker 2>when people engage with it, you know, their imagination as

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00:17:31.599 --> 00:17:33.599
<v Speaker 2>they interpret what they're reading is what really sort of

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00:17:34.359 --> 00:17:36.720
<v Speaker 2>holds for them, and you know, creates these lasting memories

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00:17:36.720 --> 00:17:38.559
<v Speaker 2>of the information and everything else. So I kind of

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<v Speaker 2>I prefer book. So my plan is to actually produce

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<v Speaker 2>a few more series if I can. We'll see.

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<v Speaker 1>Sequels to this one about Cheeks or the other.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, I'm hoping to Yeah, yeah, yeah, I've got some

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00:17:51.680 --> 00:17:55.000
<v Speaker 2>other ideas as well, but definitely I've got When I

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<v Speaker 2>decided to print this book, I actually had a book

366
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<v Speaker 2>that was twice as long, and I realized it was

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00:17:59.799 --> 00:18:02.039
<v Speaker 2>way too long. It's going to be like a doorstop,

368
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<v Speaker 2>like a giant bible or something, and so I thought

369
00:18:05.319 --> 00:18:06.920
<v Speaker 2>I'll cut it in half. And so I had to

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<v Speaker 2>make some decisions in doing that. A number of the

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<v Speaker 2>people in the book have passed away, and they didn't

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<v Speaker 2>have a chance to see the book in its final form,

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<v Speaker 2>although they all got to read their interviews, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>So I basically I sort of chose some of these

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<v Speaker 2>things to make sure that people in there would get

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<v Speaker 2>to read them, you know, because some of those people

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00:18:24.440 --> 00:18:26.759
<v Speaker 2>are still alive, and some of them I held over,

378
00:18:26.920 --> 00:18:28.400
<v Speaker 2>you know, people had long passed. I thought, well, I'll

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00:18:28.440 --> 00:18:31.039
<v Speaker 2>move this to the second volume. And getting back to

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00:18:31.079 --> 00:18:32.799
<v Speaker 2>what you said, there is somebody in the second volume

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00:18:32.799 --> 00:18:36.200
<v Speaker 2>who's working today. So there is some quite interesting stuff

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00:18:36.240 --> 00:18:39.400
<v Speaker 2>on some current activity that will appear in the second volume.

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00:18:39.960 --> 00:18:41.440
<v Speaker 2>And there might be a few more people who are

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<v Speaker 2>working today in the second volume. But we'll just see

385
00:18:43.359 --> 00:18:45.920
<v Speaker 2>how it goes. Just you mentioning doctor X. He's an

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00:18:45.960 --> 00:18:48.799
<v Speaker 2>interesting interview in so many different ways. But he was

387
00:18:48.839 --> 00:18:51.559
<v Speaker 2>one where I really had to change names and place

388
00:18:51.680 --> 00:18:53.920
<v Speaker 2>names and stuff like that, because when we spoke about it,

389
00:18:53.920 --> 00:18:56.240
<v Speaker 2>he was still heavily involved in it all those years ago,

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00:18:56.279 --> 00:18:59.440
<v Speaker 2>and he said, look, let's change this. So I came up,

391
00:18:59.440 --> 00:19:01.440
<v Speaker 2>I changed with the names and they to protect people.

392
00:19:01.880 --> 00:19:04.640
<v Speaker 2>And then he got to read it, read it again

393
00:19:05.680 --> 00:19:08.319
<v Speaker 2>last year of the year before, and he's like, oh

394
00:19:08.400 --> 00:19:10.119
<v Speaker 2>my god, you changed all these names. Because his life

395
00:19:10.160 --> 00:19:12.160
<v Speaker 2>had changed a little bit, he wasn't quite so concerned

396
00:19:12.160 --> 00:19:14.920
<v Speaker 2>about it. I said, well, yeah, so that's that's where

397
00:19:14.920 --> 00:19:17.319
<v Speaker 2>we are with doctor X. But I'm actually going to

398
00:19:17.319 --> 00:19:19.079
<v Speaker 2>be spending some time with him later this year, so

399
00:19:19.079 --> 00:19:21.920
<v Speaker 2>I'm hitting out to spend some quality of time with him.

400
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<v Speaker 2>He's a very interesting character.

401
00:19:23.839 --> 00:19:26.200
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I'd like to go visit him. He seems to

402
00:19:26.279 --> 00:19:30.039
<v Speaker 1>have like a museum there in his home of all

403
00:19:30.160 --> 00:19:35.000
<v Speaker 1>kinds of interesting, wacky wacky stuff. Oh so I want

404
00:19:35.039 --> 00:19:38.000
<v Speaker 1>to go back to the mechanic because I thought he

405
00:19:38.119 --> 00:19:43.319
<v Speaker 1>was a really interesting case. Because once you feel the power,

406
00:19:43.799 --> 00:19:47.240
<v Speaker 1>once you know you can do this and pretty much

407
00:19:47.279 --> 00:19:50.119
<v Speaker 1>go out and make money, it will. It was very

408
00:19:50.160 --> 00:19:52.839
<v Speaker 1>interesting that he that he was doing this to put

409
00:19:52.880 --> 00:19:56.720
<v Speaker 1>himself through law school and then basically stopped.

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00:19:57.440 --> 00:19:59.519
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. So he is a really interesting guy. And in

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00:19:59.519 --> 00:20:02.799
<v Speaker 2>the book we call him Bobby Machines. Obviously that's not

412
00:20:02.880 --> 00:20:04.480
<v Speaker 2>his name, but to spoake to him and I said,

413
00:20:04.480 --> 00:20:05.720
<v Speaker 2>we've got to give you a name because he was

414
00:20:05.759 --> 00:20:09.119
<v Speaker 2>still he's still quite a public figure. He's passed away

415
00:20:09.480 --> 00:20:13.079
<v Speaker 2>since since we interviewed the guy. Yeah, really so, but

416
00:20:13.319 --> 00:20:17.960
<v Speaker 2>eight of you. Yeah, I thought mutual prison Burroughs visited

417
00:20:18.079 --> 00:20:22.440
<v Speaker 2>him recently. I don't know, that's no, no, that's actually

418
00:20:22.519 --> 00:20:27.240
<v Speaker 2>you're probably thinking of Bobby asil So Bobby.

419
00:20:28.720 --> 00:20:29.119
<v Speaker 1>Recently.

420
00:20:29.279 --> 00:20:31.160
<v Speaker 2>But that's right, that's what I was going to say.

421
00:20:31.160 --> 00:20:35.039
<v Speaker 2>He only passed away about a month ago. Yeah, but

422
00:20:35.160 --> 00:20:38.279
<v Speaker 2>Bobby Machines. You know, when I interviewed Rod Rod the

423
00:20:38.279 --> 00:20:41.119
<v Speaker 2>hot Rod d Rod d was the first person I interviewed.

424
00:20:41.160 --> 00:20:44.440
<v Speaker 2>I think pretty much Rod perhaps, and maybe Bill Zender

425
00:20:44.480 --> 00:20:47.839
<v Speaker 2>and Ron Connolly, but I think Rod was the first person.

426
00:20:47.880 --> 00:20:49.920
<v Speaker 2>And because he's one of the He was a friend

427
00:20:49.960 --> 00:20:52.240
<v Speaker 2>of mine, a good friend, and we used to chat

428
00:20:52.240 --> 00:20:54.200
<v Speaker 2>a lot, and so I really wanted him to be

429
00:20:54.200 --> 00:20:55.799
<v Speaker 2>in the book. He never got to see the book,

430
00:20:55.799 --> 00:20:58.799
<v Speaker 2>which is unfortunate. But when we were talking, he mentioned

431
00:20:58.799 --> 00:21:00.960
<v Speaker 2>this guy, Bobby Machines. He said that when he was

432
00:21:01.000 --> 00:21:03.039
<v Speaker 2>a young cheat and he got turned out, and you know,

433
00:21:03.079 --> 00:21:05.799
<v Speaker 2>he was almost going to get himself killed hanging around

434
00:21:06.359 --> 00:21:08.880
<v Speaker 2>a card room in San Diego and doing a couple

435
00:21:08.920 --> 00:21:11.079
<v Speaker 2>of basic moves. He got turned out by a couple

436
00:21:11.119 --> 00:21:14.000
<v Speaker 2>of guys. There's Black John and Bobby Machines with the

437
00:21:14.000 --> 00:21:16.359
<v Speaker 2>two guys that turn him. But he said to me,

438
00:21:16.400 --> 00:21:19.319
<v Speaker 2>this guy, man, this guy was fantastic. He's one of

439
00:21:19.319 --> 00:21:21.640
<v Speaker 2>the best mechanics I've ever seen. And I don't know

440
00:21:21.640 --> 00:21:24.200
<v Speaker 2>if you probably would have met Rod, but I think

441
00:21:24.279 --> 00:21:26.119
<v Speaker 2>Rod was one of the best card mechanics I've ever

442
00:21:26.119 --> 00:21:27.799
<v Speaker 2>met in my life. I would put him up there

443
00:21:27.880 --> 00:21:31.440
<v Speaker 2>is probably the best at poker. I don't think there's

444
00:21:31.440 --> 00:21:33.880
<v Speaker 2>anybody who can touch him or could touch him. And

445
00:21:35.000 --> 00:21:36.880
<v Speaker 2>some of the shuffle stuff that he did was just

446
00:21:37.160 --> 00:21:39.680
<v Speaker 2>out of this world really. But anyway, he said, look,

447
00:21:39.720 --> 00:21:41.400
<v Speaker 2>there's this guy that turned me out. And I used

448
00:21:41.440 --> 00:21:43.200
<v Speaker 2>to sleep on his couch and he showed me moves

449
00:21:43.200 --> 00:21:46.200
<v Speaker 2>and he said he played a machine hold out machine.

450
00:21:46.240 --> 00:21:49.400
<v Speaker 2>So you know the old Blinger holdout machine, which is

451
00:21:49.400 --> 00:21:52.400
<v Speaker 2>an elaborate body worn device that's hidden inside the jacket

452
00:21:52.480 --> 00:21:54.799
<v Speaker 2>up the sleeve and you have to get specially tailored

453
00:21:54.799 --> 00:21:56.799
<v Speaker 2>cuffs so that there's no catch on the thief as

454
00:21:56.799 --> 00:21:59.799
<v Speaker 2>it comes in and out of the arm that takes

455
00:21:59.839 --> 00:22:02.119
<v Speaker 2>the card. And he said This guy was unbelievable. He

456
00:22:02.160 --> 00:22:05.000
<v Speaker 2>could work the machine like you wouldn't believe. But he

457
00:22:05.000 --> 00:22:07.119
<v Speaker 2>could also do like a double gypsy, you know, steal

458
00:22:07.160 --> 00:22:09.319
<v Speaker 2>two cards and put two cards back, which is a

459
00:22:09.319 --> 00:22:11.960
<v Speaker 2>super hard move with a machine. And I was like, man,

460
00:22:12.000 --> 00:22:14.119
<v Speaker 2>this is great. And then I thought, jes it would

461
00:22:14.119 --> 00:22:15.759
<v Speaker 2>be so great to speak to this guy, you know.

462
00:22:15.799 --> 00:22:18.599
<v Speaker 2>And then Rod passed away and I thought, well, that's it.

463
00:22:18.640 --> 00:22:20.000
<v Speaker 2>I'm not going to be able to find this guy.

464
00:22:20.039 --> 00:22:22.599
<v Speaker 2>And then I spoke to a guy and who's a

465
00:22:22.599 --> 00:22:25.519
<v Speaker 2>crossroader and we were talking about it, and he said,

466
00:22:25.519 --> 00:22:27.720
<v Speaker 2>I think I think I might know who this guy is.

467
00:22:27.720 --> 00:22:29.920
<v Speaker 2>Like there's a name that Rod mentioned and it sounds

468
00:22:29.920 --> 00:22:32.799
<v Speaker 2>like this might be the guy. So basically, the two

469
00:22:32.799 --> 00:22:34.960
<v Speaker 2>of us did a little bit of a detective work

470
00:22:35.000 --> 00:22:37.480
<v Speaker 2>and we found found a guy. And I reached out

471
00:22:37.480 --> 00:22:40.839
<v Speaker 2>to the guy and left a message on his answering machine,

472
00:22:40.839 --> 00:22:43.599
<v Speaker 2>which is you can imagine being a lawyer and attorney. Yeah,

473
00:22:44.599 --> 00:22:48.759
<v Speaker 2>it's respectable. And you get this phone call from this

474
00:22:48.920 --> 00:22:51.519
<v Speaker 2>from this dude and this random dude in Australia who

475
00:22:51.599 --> 00:22:53.440
<v Speaker 2>rings up it as get a mate, you know, and

476
00:22:53.480 --> 00:22:55.319
<v Speaker 2>I just said on the phone, I said, hey, listen,

477
00:22:55.359 --> 00:22:57.680
<v Speaker 2>you know, I think we had a mutual friend who's

478
00:22:57.720 --> 00:22:59.400
<v Speaker 2>a dear friend of mine, a guy called Rod d.

479
00:23:00.640 --> 00:23:03.720
<v Speaker 2>Rod's obviously passed away long time ago, but Right and

480
00:23:03.759 --> 00:23:06.240
<v Speaker 2>I had been speaking, and I've been working on a book,

481
00:23:06.279 --> 00:23:08.559
<v Speaker 2>and part of the book is talking about Rhyd's life

482
00:23:08.599 --> 00:23:11.440
<v Speaker 2>and the life of people who knew Right I worked

483
00:23:11.480 --> 00:23:14.720
<v Speaker 2>with Ryde. I was wondering whether maybe we could have

484
00:23:14.720 --> 00:23:17.400
<v Speaker 2>a chat about the project, you know, and so on,

485
00:23:17.440 --> 00:23:20.160
<v Speaker 2>and so I remember I was, I was getting some takeout,

486
00:23:20.160 --> 00:23:21.680
<v Speaker 2>and I'm in the car with my daughters and the

487
00:23:21.720 --> 00:23:23.359
<v Speaker 2>phone rings, and I put, you know, comes on the

488
00:23:23.359 --> 00:23:25.680
<v Speaker 2>speakerphone and here's this rough as he just sounded so

489
00:23:25.839 --> 00:23:29.160
<v Speaker 2>rough for an attorney. And he goes blah blah, blah,

490
00:23:29.160 --> 00:23:31.039
<v Speaker 2>blah blah, and then he said, you know, I don't

491
00:23:31.079 --> 00:23:32.720
<v Speaker 2>know if I can swear, but he said, effort. Let's

492
00:23:32.720 --> 00:23:34.119
<v Speaker 2>do it, you know, like I say, he said, yeah,

493
00:23:34.160 --> 00:23:36.200
<v Speaker 2>let's do it. So the next day we recorded this

494
00:23:36.200 --> 00:23:39.200
<v Speaker 2>this first of us a series of interviews, and they

495
00:23:39.200 --> 00:23:41.799
<v Speaker 2>were fantastic, really interesting. That guy was a bit of

496
00:23:41.799 --> 00:23:42.240
<v Speaker 2>a beast.

497
00:23:42.599 --> 00:23:45.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah yeah, And as I say it, just it's it's

498
00:23:46.000 --> 00:23:50.359
<v Speaker 1>pretty rare for people to get out of that life.

499
00:23:50.039 --> 00:23:55.240
<v Speaker 2>But super rare. Yeah, yeah, super rare. So so there's

500
00:23:55.279 --> 00:23:58.000
<v Speaker 2>sort of three people in the book who got out

501
00:23:58.480 --> 00:24:02.279
<v Speaker 2>of the life. So Ron Connolly was involved in some

502
00:24:02.319 --> 00:24:04.200
<v Speaker 2>stuff as a young man, and then he became a

503
00:24:04.279 --> 00:24:07.920
<v Speaker 2>peak in clubs and became a senior surveillance expert in clubs.

504
00:24:07.920 --> 00:24:11.079
<v Speaker 2>So that's an example of somebody who transitioned or what

505
00:24:11.319 --> 00:24:14.680
<v Speaker 2>frustraders say. The expression they use is he turned his

506
00:24:14.720 --> 00:24:17.200
<v Speaker 2>collar around, you know, so he went and batted for

507
00:24:17.200 --> 00:24:19.640
<v Speaker 2>the wrong team kind of thing, which is a huge

508
00:24:19.680 --> 00:24:23.000
<v Speaker 2>no no like. And you see that in the book

509
00:24:23.000 --> 00:24:24.880
<v Speaker 2>with some of the comments from people like Black John

510
00:24:24.920 --> 00:24:27.200
<v Speaker 2>when he talks about a guy called Toak who was

511
00:24:27.920 --> 00:24:30.279
<v Speaker 2>a cheat like a machine man who actually became a

512
00:24:30.319 --> 00:24:32.599
<v Speaker 2>peak and worked with Ron Connley and other people, where

513
00:24:32.799 --> 00:24:36.599
<v Speaker 2>they actually hate these guys and they're quite quite aggressive

514
00:24:36.640 --> 00:24:38.000
<v Speaker 2>about what they would like to do to some of

515
00:24:38.039 --> 00:24:40.319
<v Speaker 2>these people. And I believe Toke actually did get beaten

516
00:24:40.400 --> 00:24:43.039
<v Speaker 2>up a few times. But yeah, Ron turned his collar around.

517
00:24:43.039 --> 00:24:46.640
<v Speaker 2>And Ron had a very successful career and up until

518
00:24:46.640 --> 00:24:48.799
<v Speaker 2>the time he retired, he was probably considered the world

519
00:24:48.799 --> 00:24:51.640
<v Speaker 2>expert on cheating at poker. For he's work in the

520
00:24:51.799 --> 00:24:55.200
<v Speaker 2>clubs in California, Robert Assioll moved on and had a

521
00:24:55.559 --> 00:24:57.720
<v Speaker 2>I think he was pretty well established financially. He was

522
00:24:57.759 --> 00:25:00.319
<v Speaker 2>one of the smart guy though. He he had a

523
00:25:00.319 --> 00:25:02.839
<v Speaker 2>long retirement as far as I understand, and he moved

524
00:25:03.119 --> 00:25:05.759
<v Speaker 2>to Colorado so he could be close to his family.

525
00:25:06.319 --> 00:25:08.319
<v Speaker 2>But he I think he lived well in retirement. A

526
00:25:08.359 --> 00:25:11.039
<v Speaker 2>lot of these guys don't live well in retirement. A

527
00:25:11.079 --> 00:25:14.440
<v Speaker 2>lot of these guys live in penury. Basically, it's like

528
00:25:14.519 --> 00:25:17.640
<v Speaker 2>a it's you know, the psychology of a lot of

529
00:25:17.640 --> 00:25:20.119
<v Speaker 2>these guys is, as they say, easy come, easy go,

530
00:25:20.319 --> 00:25:22.359
<v Speaker 2>And the money they make is pretty money. It's money

531
00:25:22.359 --> 00:25:24.480
<v Speaker 2>that would just flow through the hands, and they don't

532
00:25:24.519 --> 00:25:28.039
<v Speaker 2>care because if they go and they burn money one day,

533
00:25:28.079 --> 00:25:29.680
<v Speaker 2>the next day, they can just make it back. They

534
00:25:29.759 --> 00:25:32.240
<v Speaker 2>just sort of it's to them, it's like, you know,

535
00:25:32.319 --> 00:25:33.799
<v Speaker 2>you just walk around and you just pick it just

536
00:25:33.839 --> 00:25:36.279
<v Speaker 2>grows on trees effectively, because suckers are suckers and they're

537
00:25:36.279 --> 00:25:38.799
<v Speaker 2>always going to throw their money at you. So that's

538
00:25:38.839 --> 00:25:41.039
<v Speaker 2>the way these guys operated, and that's why you hear

539
00:25:41.079 --> 00:25:44.200
<v Speaker 2>these stories like you know the story of the old

540
00:25:44.279 --> 00:25:47.279
<v Speaker 2>cheat Wilbur Kelsey, who was a machine man in a

541
00:25:47.480 --> 00:25:50.599
<v Speaker 2>California who was still working machine in his eighties and

542
00:25:50.640 --> 00:25:52.200
<v Speaker 2>got caught and got beaten up and ended up in

543
00:25:52.200 --> 00:25:54.799
<v Speaker 2>the hospital. So you know, these guys will beat up

544
00:25:54.960 --> 00:25:57.720
<v Speaker 2>an eighty year old man for cheating. It's a risky

545
00:25:57.759 --> 00:26:00.319
<v Speaker 2>business and a lot of these guys have busted up us,

546
00:26:00.440 --> 00:26:03.680
<v Speaker 2>you know, as they say, we say in Australia. Rod,

547
00:26:03.720 --> 00:26:08.079
<v Speaker 2>for example, Rod was complicated. Rod was super talented, super skills,

548
00:26:08.359 --> 00:26:10.559
<v Speaker 2>super smart, all that sort of stuff. He had a

549
00:26:10.559 --> 00:26:11.960
<v Speaker 2>bit of a gift of the gab as well. He

550
00:26:12.000 --> 00:26:14.559
<v Speaker 2>had was a bit of a silver dung cavalier as

551
00:26:14.559 --> 00:26:19.200
<v Speaker 2>they say. But he was also heavily involved in drugged

552
00:26:19.319 --> 00:26:21.119
<v Speaker 2>you know, he was involved in the drug trade and

553
00:26:21.160 --> 00:26:25.599
<v Speaker 2>got trouble in that sense, and so then had a habit.

554
00:26:25.880 --> 00:26:27.720
<v Speaker 2>You know, he was put on He got onto heroin

555
00:26:27.799 --> 00:26:29.920
<v Speaker 2>through a woman that he was dating who was a

556
00:26:29.920 --> 00:26:33.160
<v Speaker 2>prostitute and drug addict, and yeah, it was it just

557
00:26:33.279 --> 00:26:35.680
<v Speaker 2>it just ruined him essentially, and you know, ruined his

558
00:26:35.720 --> 00:26:37.839
<v Speaker 2>judgment and everything else. And towards the end of his

559
00:26:37.880 --> 00:26:40.559
<v Speaker 2>life he was still working private games as a muster mechanic,

560
00:26:41.079 --> 00:26:43.480
<v Speaker 2>but the kind of cut he was getting was nothing

561
00:26:43.519 --> 00:26:45.400
<v Speaker 2>compared to what was being made in the game. So

562
00:26:45.960 --> 00:26:47.839
<v Speaker 2>a game might you know, they might take off some

563
00:26:47.880 --> 00:26:50.039
<v Speaker 2>sucker for two hundred thousand dollars in a private game,

564
00:26:50.079 --> 00:26:53.039
<v Speaker 2>and Rod would get nine thousand dollars. You know. You

565
00:26:53.079 --> 00:26:55.680
<v Speaker 2>know that's the sort of money that was trickling down

566
00:26:55.839 --> 00:26:58.799
<v Speaker 2>his way because he wasn't in a position to negotiate,

567
00:26:58.839 --> 00:27:01.160
<v Speaker 2>because they knew how desperate he was. And I was

568
00:27:01.160 --> 00:27:04.480
<v Speaker 2>speaking to somebody just yesterday who spoken to a partner

569
00:27:04.519 --> 00:27:07.720
<v Speaker 2>of Rod's and said that, you know, Rod's habit never

570
00:27:07.759 --> 00:27:09.599
<v Speaker 2>gotten the way of his work when he was working

571
00:27:09.599 --> 00:27:12.480
<v Speaker 2>with partners, but everyone just sort of knew that. You know,

572
00:27:13.160 --> 00:27:14.400
<v Speaker 2>at a certain time of the week, like on a

573
00:27:14.440 --> 00:27:16.640
<v Speaker 2>Thursday or something, Rod would disappear and you wouldn't see

574
00:27:16.680 --> 00:27:18.640
<v Speaker 2>him for four days. You know. They said that he

575
00:27:18.680 --> 00:27:20.759
<v Speaker 2>was never he's never high when he worked, but he

576
00:27:20.799 --> 00:27:25.720
<v Speaker 2>was thinking about it, I think, getting back to Bobby Machines, Yeah.

577
00:27:25.519 --> 00:27:28.039
<v Speaker 1>So yeah, no, go ahead, I was.

578
00:27:28.000 --> 00:27:30.759
<v Speaker 2>Just going to say that, Yeah, he was very successful,

579
00:27:30.880 --> 00:27:33.680
<v Speaker 2>but he was he had he was super smart. Obviously

580
00:27:33.759 --> 00:27:37.160
<v Speaker 2>he was super smart. He was a guy who got drafted,

581
00:27:37.319 --> 00:27:40.559
<v Speaker 2>went to Vietnam, fought in Vietnam, came back and used

582
00:27:40.559 --> 00:27:44.160
<v Speaker 2>the GI bill to study. He had some kids, and

583
00:27:44.200 --> 00:27:47.160
<v Speaker 2>obviously he was separated from whoever the mother was, and

584
00:27:47.240 --> 00:27:49.680
<v Speaker 2>he was left with a couple of kids, and so

585
00:27:49.839 --> 00:27:53.680
<v Speaker 2>he would look around for ways to make money, and

586
00:27:53.720 --> 00:27:55.400
<v Speaker 2>for him, he found the easiest way to make money

587
00:27:55.480 --> 00:27:57.640
<v Speaker 2>was the steel at every weekend, so he would get

588
00:27:57.640 --> 00:27:59.480
<v Speaker 2>in the car and he would go to the clubs

589
00:27:59.519 --> 00:28:04.240
<v Speaker 2>and Sandy and Sacramento and Gadina and he would steal

590
00:28:04.559 --> 00:28:06.640
<v Speaker 2>you know, a thousand or a couple of thousand dollars

591
00:28:06.680 --> 00:28:11.599
<v Speaker 2>in the early seventies, and he lived just fine as

592
00:28:11.640 --> 00:28:14.920
<v Speaker 2>a student, you know, studying to become a lawyer. And

593
00:28:14.960 --> 00:28:16.880
<v Speaker 2>then he tells the story in the book that he

594
00:28:17.000 --> 00:28:19.359
<v Speaker 2>was always just a means to an end. He just

595
00:28:19.400 --> 00:28:21.839
<v Speaker 2>had discipline. I guess, which is that's the sort of

596
00:28:21.880 --> 00:28:24.839
<v Speaker 2>thing that separates the true master sort of cheats from

597
00:28:25.240 --> 00:28:27.759
<v Speaker 2>the guys who are in the life for their whole life.

598
00:28:27.799 --> 00:28:30.880
<v Speaker 2>And as you know, scuffling at the bottom is that

599
00:28:30.960 --> 00:28:33.240
<v Speaker 2>he was smart, and he had discipline. He had a plan,

600
00:28:33.400 --> 00:28:35.599
<v Speaker 2>and he stuck to the plan. And the day that

601
00:28:36.079 --> 00:28:38.079
<v Speaker 2>he found out that he'd passed the bar exam was

602
00:28:38.119 --> 00:28:39.519
<v Speaker 2>the day he stopped cheating forever.

603
00:28:40.279 --> 00:28:44.319
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, amazing, you know. I moved to Las Vegas in

604
00:28:44.400 --> 00:28:49.279
<v Speaker 1>nineteen seventy seven and started work as a blackjack dealer,

605
00:28:49.480 --> 00:28:52.160
<v Speaker 1>and I worked with a lot of these old guys

606
00:28:52.880 --> 00:28:56.880
<v Speaker 1>who had been in Hot Springs, Arkansas and Newport, Kentucky,

607
00:28:57.079 --> 00:29:02.079
<v Speaker 1>and a lot of them had been cryders. And you know,

608
00:29:02.160 --> 00:29:04.920
<v Speaker 1>my big regret is that I didn't spend more time

609
00:29:05.000 --> 00:29:08.000
<v Speaker 1>talking to those guys and getting more of their stories,

610
00:29:08.079 --> 00:29:12.559
<v Speaker 1>because it was just amazing to hear the kind of

611
00:29:12.599 --> 00:29:16.000
<v Speaker 1>stories they had and the people they knew, and.

612
00:29:16.440 --> 00:29:19.559
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, look to me, that just sounds like, yeah, that

613
00:29:20.319 --> 00:29:22.039
<v Speaker 2>something that I would love to have been able to

614
00:29:22.079 --> 00:29:24.440
<v Speaker 2>have the opportunity to speak to those guys. Like Volume

615
00:29:24.440 --> 00:29:27.359
<v Speaker 2>two has an interview with a guy who bought in

616
00:29:27.400 --> 00:29:30.920
<v Speaker 2>World War Two, learnt to gamble as a soldier in

617
00:29:30.960 --> 00:29:33.880
<v Speaker 2>the Pacific, got a purple heart, was blown up by

618
00:29:33.880 --> 00:29:36.279
<v Speaker 2>a hand grenade, ended up in the hospital, and then

619
00:29:36.279 --> 00:29:38.440
<v Speaker 2>he came back to New York and got turned out

620
00:29:38.480 --> 00:29:40.400
<v Speaker 2>by a bunch of road hustlers, went on the road,

621
00:29:40.799 --> 00:29:43.119
<v Speaker 2>and he was cheating for the forties until the day

622
00:29:43.119 --> 00:29:45.759
<v Speaker 2>he died. I interviewed him in the early two thousands,

623
00:29:46.240 --> 00:29:48.880
<v Speaker 2>and so he was one of the classic old road hustlers.

624
00:29:49.319 --> 00:29:51.000
<v Speaker 2>And he's the only guy that I've got that's of

625
00:29:51.000 --> 00:29:54.319
<v Speaker 2>that sort of that sort of vintage. I met other

626
00:29:54.359 --> 00:29:57.359
<v Speaker 2>partners that he worked with, and I know people who

627
00:29:58.200 --> 00:30:00.680
<v Speaker 2>knew those partners, like Ron conleeknew and of those partners,

628
00:30:00.799 --> 00:30:03.920
<v Speaker 2>guys like Frenchie the Hawk, who was a guy who

629
00:30:04.000 --> 00:30:07.079
<v Speaker 2>was around Farmer's Market and worked in the clubs in

630
00:30:07.079 --> 00:30:10.960
<v Speaker 2>Gardena and these guys are all in Cruise. And another

631
00:30:11.000 --> 00:30:13.559
<v Speaker 2>guy who is a name that might be known to people,

632
00:30:13.680 --> 00:30:18.160
<v Speaker 2>Tony Georgio, who was an actor in Hollywood. Tony Georgio,

633
00:30:18.480 --> 00:30:21.599
<v Speaker 2>like magicians know that Tony Georgio claimed to have been

634
00:30:21.640 --> 00:30:24.519
<v Speaker 2>a cheat, and he wrote some articles for a magic

635
00:30:24.559 --> 00:30:27.480
<v Speaker 2>journal called the Georgio Letters, where he talked about all

636
00:30:27.480 --> 00:30:29.039
<v Speaker 2>the cheats he knew and all that sort of stuff.

637
00:30:29.079 --> 00:30:32.319
<v Speaker 2>And some magicians have asked me in recent years, you know,

638
00:30:32.440 --> 00:30:35.039
<v Speaker 2>was Georgia really a cheat? One hundred percent? Georgia was

639
00:30:35.079 --> 00:30:37.440
<v Speaker 2>a cheat, and he cheated for twenty years. He was

640
00:30:37.440 --> 00:30:40.160
<v Speaker 2>a professional chick for twenty years up until the early

641
00:30:40.240 --> 00:30:43.519
<v Speaker 2>sixties when he became a professional actor. And he was

642
00:30:43.519 --> 00:30:45.359
<v Speaker 2>a good actor too, by the way, but he was

643
00:30:46.039 --> 00:30:48.039
<v Speaker 2>he was a very scary kind of guy who was

644
00:30:48.200 --> 00:30:51.480
<v Speaker 2>this big man, big Italian dude, and he had like

645
00:30:51.519 --> 00:30:55.799
<v Speaker 2>a pretty scary, rough looking face, like a pugilist, bit

646
00:30:55.839 --> 00:30:59.319
<v Speaker 2>of a gargoyle, and in fact was he was lined

647
00:30:59.400 --> 00:31:02.680
<v Speaker 2>up to play Cobrassi and The Godfather, and then at

648
00:31:02.680 --> 00:31:05.400
<v Speaker 2>the last minute Capolo said, no, We'll go with this

649
00:31:05.480 --> 00:31:07.240
<v Speaker 2>other guy, and the guy who ended up playing Luca

650
00:31:07.279 --> 00:31:10.079
<v Speaker 2>Brassi replaced Georgio in the role. And the person that

651
00:31:10.119 --> 00:31:13.200
<v Speaker 2>told me this story said that Capola said he wanted

652
00:31:13.200 --> 00:31:16.720
<v Speaker 2>somebody who was scarier than Georgio, and he said to me,

653
00:31:17.200 --> 00:31:20.240
<v Speaker 2>which is crazy, because I've never met anybody scarier than Georgia.

654
00:31:22.880 --> 00:31:25.920
<v Speaker 2>And so George actually does appear in the movie. And

655
00:31:25.960 --> 00:31:29.440
<v Speaker 2>so in the scene where Luca Brassi gets garrotted, one

656
00:31:29.440 --> 00:31:31.200
<v Speaker 2>of the guys behind the bars stabs him in the hand.

657
00:31:31.200 --> 00:31:32.680
<v Speaker 2>I don't know if you remember the scene. So they

658
00:31:32.759 --> 00:31:35.279
<v Speaker 2>pin him at the bar while they strangle him. But

659
00:31:35.359 --> 00:31:39.000
<v Speaker 2>the guy cleaning the glass who lights his cigarette is

660
00:31:39.039 --> 00:31:41.559
<v Speaker 2>Tony Georgio. That's the guy, and if you see him

661
00:31:41.559 --> 00:31:43.400
<v Speaker 2>in that short scene you can see what a menacing

662
00:31:43.480 --> 00:31:46.680
<v Speaker 2>kind of person he was in real life. And it

663
00:31:46.720 --> 00:31:48.720
<v Speaker 2>was actually him that suggested to the director that they

664
00:31:48.759 --> 00:31:50.440
<v Speaker 2>stabbed him in the hand when they do the scene,

665
00:31:50.480 --> 00:31:53.599
<v Speaker 2>So the director incorporated that into the film, but he

666
00:31:53.720 --> 00:31:55.839
<v Speaker 2>was in a bunch of movies. Escape from Which Mountain.

667
00:31:56.079 --> 00:31:58.079
<v Speaker 2>He was in Magnum Force. He's the guy with a

668
00:31:58.079 --> 00:31:59.920
<v Speaker 2>shotgun in one of the scenes, the leader of a

669
00:32:00.079 --> 00:32:04.039
<v Speaker 2>gang that gets killed by Benisewood. And and he's an

670
00:32:04.079 --> 00:32:07.720
<v Speaker 2>amazing guy. And he was a master mechanic, very good

671
00:32:07.720 --> 00:32:10.119
<v Speaker 2>with dice and cards, and you know, I got to

672
00:32:10.119 --> 00:32:12.400
<v Speaker 2>meet him a few times in Los Angeles, and we

673
00:32:12.480 --> 00:32:14.960
<v Speaker 2>spoke a lot on the phone, and we also chatted

674
00:32:15.000 --> 00:32:16.720
<v Speaker 2>online a lot in the early days of the internet.

675
00:32:17.240 --> 00:32:18.880
<v Speaker 2>And i'd spoke to spoken to him and said, look,

676
00:32:18.880 --> 00:32:20.319
<v Speaker 2>I'd really like to interview you, and he said this,

677
00:32:20.559 --> 00:32:23.039
<v Speaker 2>you know, in his rough ways, like there's no way,

678
00:32:23.319 --> 00:32:25.640
<v Speaker 2>you know, he had this this very scary kind of voice.

679
00:32:26.000 --> 00:32:28.000
<v Speaker 2>And I was like, okay, that's fine, that's fair enough.

680
00:32:28.000 --> 00:32:31.079
<v Speaker 2>But I interviewed one of his partners, a guy called

681
00:32:31.279 --> 00:32:35.160
<v Speaker 2>called Phil h Phil Hertzog, and that's a fantastic interview

682
00:32:35.240 --> 00:32:37.599
<v Speaker 2>being volume too. But the whole time that I was

683
00:32:37.640 --> 00:32:40.519
<v Speaker 2>interviewing him, he's saying to me, you know, he had

684
00:32:40.559 --> 00:32:43.279
<v Speaker 2>this whole old man voice. He's like, whatever you do,

685
00:32:43.279 --> 00:32:45.799
<v Speaker 2>don't tell Tony I'm talking to you. Don't say a

686
00:32:45.880 --> 00:32:51.279
<v Speaker 2>word to Tony. They're all scared of Tony, right, So,

687
00:32:51.440 --> 00:32:54.920
<v Speaker 2>but Hertzog was the real master mechanic like in that

688
00:32:55.119 --> 00:32:57.400
<v Speaker 2>in that group, he was the guy that probably had

689
00:32:57.119 --> 00:33:00.599
<v Speaker 2>the best chops. And that's that's just a great interview.

690
00:33:00.640 --> 00:33:02.920
<v Speaker 2>I really enjoyed that one. There's sort of sort of

691
00:33:02.920 --> 00:33:05.319
<v Speaker 2>a code to this story. You know. I worked as

692
00:33:05.359 --> 00:33:08.599
<v Speaker 2>a diplomat overseas for a number of years, and I

693
00:33:08.640 --> 00:33:11.000
<v Speaker 2>remember I was on a Friday, I was at the

694
00:33:11.039 --> 00:33:14.000
<v Speaker 2>mall shopping when I lived in Saudi Arabia, and I

695
00:33:14.079 --> 00:33:16.519
<v Speaker 2>got a phone call from somebody who was very close

696
00:33:16.519 --> 00:33:19.960
<v Speaker 2>to Tony Georgio and he said to Tony was dying

697
00:33:19.960 --> 00:33:21.599
<v Speaker 2>of cancer, and he said, Tony's ready to talk to you.

698
00:33:21.640 --> 00:33:23.240
<v Speaker 2>He wants to do the interview. And I said, I

699
00:33:23.319 --> 00:33:25.880
<v Speaker 2>just can't do it. Like I'm in Saudi Arabia, it's

700
00:33:25.920 --> 00:33:28.440
<v Speaker 2>just not something I can do. And so that's one

701
00:33:28.480 --> 00:33:30.359
<v Speaker 2>of my big regrets. Like you were talking about those

702
00:33:30.400 --> 00:33:33.200
<v Speaker 2>guys from Arkansas and other places, and that's my big

703
00:33:33.200 --> 00:33:35.559
<v Speaker 2>regret is that I didn't actually get to record Tony

704
00:33:35.599 --> 00:33:37.799
<v Speaker 2>for that interview, because that would have been a But

705
00:33:38.599 --> 00:33:41.039
<v Speaker 2>I did speak to somebody who knew Tony very well

706
00:33:41.200 --> 00:33:43.440
<v Speaker 2>and There's an interview in the second book with Darwin

707
00:33:43.519 --> 00:33:47.000
<v Speaker 2>or Tears, who knew him very well, and Darwin recounts

708
00:33:47.000 --> 00:33:49.319
<v Speaker 2>a bunch of stories that Tony had told him about

709
00:33:49.319 --> 00:33:52.960
<v Speaker 2>his work. And Tony worked with a partner in Cuba

710
00:33:53.119 --> 00:33:56.920
<v Speaker 2>before the Castro period, and they ran razzle for the

711
00:33:56.920 --> 00:34:00.359
<v Speaker 2>mob in the casino there, and razzle's the old carnival game.

712
00:34:00.640 --> 00:34:03.440
<v Speaker 2>And they made lots of lots of money running razzle

713
00:34:03.720 --> 00:34:05.519
<v Speaker 2>as a casino game, right, which.

714
00:34:05.359 --> 00:34:07.880
<v Speaker 1>I did not see. That's the first I've ever heard

715
00:34:07.920 --> 00:34:09.719
<v Speaker 1>of razzle being dealt in the casino.

716
00:34:10.239 --> 00:34:15.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, and it was huge. And Tony told this

717
00:34:15.039 --> 00:34:17.079
<v Speaker 2>story to Dah and he said, me and my partner,

718
00:34:17.199 --> 00:34:19.079
<v Speaker 2>you know, we had this deal with the mob. It

719
00:34:19.119 --> 00:34:21.440
<v Speaker 2>was fifty to fifty and we were just making money

720
00:34:21.440 --> 00:34:23.760
<v Speaker 2>hand over fist, you know, just making tons and tons

721
00:34:23.800 --> 00:34:26.039
<v Speaker 2>of money. And then of course the mob came back

722
00:34:26.039 --> 00:34:28.519
<v Speaker 2>and they said, okay, listen, things are changing. Now it's

723
00:34:28.559 --> 00:34:30.920
<v Speaker 2>sixty forty, and then it was now it's you know,

724
00:34:31.079 --> 00:34:33.639
<v Speaker 2>seventy thirty. It was a classic kind of you know,

725
00:34:33.840 --> 00:34:36.920
<v Speaker 2>like a buyout, like a forced buyout kind of thing.

726
00:34:37.320 --> 00:34:39.320
<v Speaker 2>And so Tony just said screw it, and he said,

727
00:34:39.360 --> 00:34:40.960
<v Speaker 2>I'm going back to the States and he left his

728
00:34:41.000 --> 00:34:44.639
<v Speaker 2>partner and his partner stayed on working this scam. And

729
00:34:45.119 --> 00:34:48.039
<v Speaker 2>Darlin said to me, you know, everything that Tony told him,

730
00:34:48.320 --> 00:34:50.719
<v Speaker 2>he spoke to other cheats and they all backed up.

731
00:34:50.760 --> 00:34:52.880
<v Speaker 2>It was all validated, like people said, oh, yeah he

732
00:34:52.880 --> 00:34:55.719
<v Speaker 2>did this or yeah he did that, So he legitimately

733
00:34:55.840 --> 00:34:59.840
<v Speaker 2>was a hardcore cheeter. And there's a book called Havana

734
00:35:00.159 --> 00:35:03.000
<v Speaker 2>Turn by TJ. English, and there's a whole chapter that

735
00:35:03.079 --> 00:35:06.239
<v Speaker 2>talks about the mob's casino activities in Cuba, and it

736
00:35:06.280 --> 00:35:07.880
<v Speaker 2>actually talks about Rezzle in that book.

737
00:35:07.920 --> 00:35:12.440
<v Speaker 1>So that's a huh, yeah, I will check that out. Yeah,

738
00:35:12.480 --> 00:35:15.960
<v Speaker 1>I lean more toward I'm much more interested in the

739
00:35:16.079 --> 00:35:20.559
<v Speaker 1>people who were cheating in casinos than you know, the

740
00:35:21.880 --> 00:35:24.760
<v Speaker 1>card rooms and things like that. And you know one

741
00:35:24.800 --> 00:35:26.880
<v Speaker 1>of the guys who was an old cheat that I

742
00:35:27.079 --> 00:35:30.760
<v Speaker 1>talked to back you know, I met this guy back

743
00:35:30.800 --> 00:35:34.719
<v Speaker 1>in about nineteen seventy nine or something, and you know,

744
00:35:34.960 --> 00:35:39.159
<v Speaker 1>his move was to play what they called switches, which

745
00:35:39.440 --> 00:35:43.239
<v Speaker 1>is to literally have two guys. It's kind of like

746
00:35:43.360 --> 00:35:48.320
<v Speaker 1>the move that Bobby Azel claims to have invented. I

747
00:35:48.440 --> 00:35:51.360
<v Speaker 1>had always heard it called the muck switch, where the

748
00:35:51.400 --> 00:35:54.360
<v Speaker 1>switch is happening under the table. But these guys would

749
00:35:54.400 --> 00:35:57.639
<v Speaker 1>switch on the table and one of the moves was

750
00:35:57.679 --> 00:36:01.400
<v Speaker 1>to just basically throw the to the other guy and

751
00:36:01.480 --> 00:36:05.880
<v Speaker 1>the two cards would pass and into each's hand. But

752
00:36:05.920 --> 00:36:08.880
<v Speaker 1>back then, there were really no cameras, there was no video,

753
00:36:09.320 --> 00:36:13.199
<v Speaker 1>there wasn't any of that. So but he said, you know,

754
00:36:13.519 --> 00:36:17.440
<v Speaker 1>every once in a while, like the guy would miss

755
00:36:17.480 --> 00:36:20.360
<v Speaker 1>and the card would just go sailing across the table,

756
00:36:21.039 --> 00:36:24.800
<v Speaker 1>and you know, and the dealer would be like, what

757
00:36:24.880 --> 00:36:28.719
<v Speaker 1>the hell just happened? Yeah, but I remember him saying

758
00:36:28.760 --> 00:36:30.840
<v Speaker 1>that he ended up giving it up because they just

759
00:36:30.920 --> 00:36:34.320
<v Speaker 1>lost their nerves, you know, because if you got caught

760
00:36:34.400 --> 00:36:37.519
<v Speaker 1>back then that you know, it was a pretty serious thing.

761
00:36:38.039 --> 00:36:39.559
<v Speaker 2>Big problems, Yeah, big problems.

762
00:36:39.599 --> 00:36:40.400
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

763
00:36:40.440 --> 00:36:42.400
<v Speaker 2>I love those stories. I love hearing that stuff. And

764
00:36:42.639 --> 00:36:45.079
<v Speaker 2>you're right, you know, things have changed in terms of

765
00:36:45.519 --> 00:36:47.280
<v Speaker 2>you know, there were no cameras, there were peaks in

766
00:36:47.320 --> 00:36:49.559
<v Speaker 2>the ceilings and things like that. But now with these

767
00:36:49.639 --> 00:36:53.159
<v Speaker 2>camera systems, the resolutions crizy, and there's so many other

768
00:36:53.519 --> 00:36:56.199
<v Speaker 2>things that limit, you know, the ability of cheats to

769
00:36:56.239 --> 00:37:00.000
<v Speaker 2>function in effectively in casinos. And it's all it comes

770
00:37:00.079 --> 00:37:05.039
<v Speaker 2>down at technology, and the same technology that helps governments

771
00:37:05.079 --> 00:37:09.360
<v Speaker 2>to prevent transnational crime, you know, people smuggling, drug smuggling,

772
00:37:09.880 --> 00:37:12.280
<v Speaker 2>state and nonstate actors engaged in terrorism, all that sort

773
00:37:12.280 --> 00:37:15.280
<v Speaker 2>of stuff. All of this technology can easily be applied

774
00:37:15.280 --> 00:37:19.360
<v Speaker 2>to cheating stuff. Now, so especially for me, you know,

775
00:37:19.400 --> 00:37:22.280
<v Speaker 2>if you look at biometrics is just to killer problem

776
00:37:22.280 --> 00:37:25.280
<v Speaker 2>for people involved in cheating. Once they know, once they

777
00:37:25.320 --> 00:37:28.480
<v Speaker 2>have your scan, your biometrics and they identify you and

778
00:37:28.480 --> 00:37:32.239
<v Speaker 2>you're confirmed or suspect kod of being a cheat, then

779
00:37:32.519 --> 00:37:34.320
<v Speaker 2>biometrics is going to pick you up everywhere. You just

780
00:37:34.320 --> 00:37:37.599
<v Speaker 2>can't beat it. There's you know a lot of cheats

781
00:37:37.719 --> 00:37:41.400
<v Speaker 2>wear disguises, and they'll still wear disguises, and those disguises

782
00:37:41.400 --> 00:37:44.280
<v Speaker 2>are effective up until the time that people have an

783
00:37:44.360 --> 00:37:49.159
<v Speaker 2>elevated suspicion of who you are. Those disguises will allow

784
00:37:49.199 --> 00:37:52.039
<v Speaker 2>you to function until you draw attention to your But

785
00:37:52.119 --> 00:37:56.119
<v Speaker 2>once once you draw attention to yourself, biometrics just bypasses

786
00:37:56.159 --> 00:37:58.159
<v Speaker 2>all of that because there are things that even if

787
00:37:58.199 --> 00:38:00.800
<v Speaker 2>you wear disguises, you can't change. You can't change or

788
00:38:00.920 --> 00:38:02.960
<v Speaker 2>capital distance, you know, the distance between your eyes, this

789
00:38:03.039 --> 00:38:05.719
<v Speaker 2>points on your face that just can't be modified in

790
00:38:05.760 --> 00:38:08.599
<v Speaker 2>a way that will defeat biometrics and then the other

791
00:38:08.599 --> 00:38:12.159
<v Speaker 2>factor is AI, the ability of AI. I'm not a

792
00:38:12.159 --> 00:38:14.719
<v Speaker 2>big fan of AI in other regards as somebody who's

793
00:38:14.760 --> 00:38:17.079
<v Speaker 2>an author, I think AI is terrible in that sense.

794
00:38:17.119 --> 00:38:21.760
<v Speaker 2>But in terms of casino security, AI allows very fast

795
00:38:22.440 --> 00:38:26.360
<v Speaker 2>pattern recognition and analysis to be conducted. You know, like

796
00:38:26.440 --> 00:38:30.199
<v Speaker 2>all of that really hard work analysis and identifying trends

797
00:38:30.199 --> 00:38:34.639
<v Speaker 2>and tracking of locations and of activities and all of

798
00:38:34.639 --> 00:38:36.800
<v Speaker 2>that sort of stuff can be done in an so

799
00:38:36.920 --> 00:38:38.519
<v Speaker 2>that you can you can wag ahead of the game

800
00:38:38.559 --> 00:38:41.719
<v Speaker 2>in terms of your analysis. So there's that sort of stuff.

801
00:38:42.320 --> 00:38:44.679
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean the other thing is because of all

802
00:38:44.760 --> 00:38:50.400
<v Speaker 1>the financial reporting. You know, forty years ago, fifty years ago,

803
00:38:51.480 --> 00:38:54.880
<v Speaker 1>you could walk up to the casino cage and cash

804
00:38:55.039 --> 00:38:58.559
<v Speaker 1>fifty thousand dollars and they would not dream of asking

805
00:38:58.599 --> 00:39:03.280
<v Speaker 1>you your name. Like that was you know, people, it

806
00:39:03.360 --> 00:39:06.559
<v Speaker 1>was considered like privacy, a privacy thing, like you wouldn't

807
00:39:06.559 --> 00:39:09.119
<v Speaker 1>ask somebody their name just because they want a bunch

808
00:39:09.159 --> 00:39:11.960
<v Speaker 1>of money. And now you know, you can't cash out

809
00:39:12.039 --> 00:39:14.880
<v Speaker 1>three thousand in most places without having to give ID

810
00:39:15.159 --> 00:39:18.159
<v Speaker 1>and once they know who you are as you say,

811
00:39:18.480 --> 00:39:23.400
<v Speaker 1>you know, they have the databases, and so yeah, it

812
00:39:23.519 --> 00:39:28.199
<v Speaker 1>gets more more difficult and you know, the the real

813
00:39:28.800 --> 00:39:32.880
<v Speaker 1>killer is going to be within the next ten years,

814
00:39:33.239 --> 00:39:36.320
<v Speaker 1>it's all going to be cashless. You're going to you're

815
00:39:36.320 --> 00:39:37.960
<v Speaker 1>going to have to buy in on your phone, and

816
00:39:38.000 --> 00:39:39.519
<v Speaker 1>that means they're going to know who you are.

817
00:39:40.000 --> 00:39:43.599
<v Speaker 2>You know, the digital trial. You just can't get away

818
00:39:43.599 --> 00:39:46.159
<v Speaker 2>from that digital trial. So so cheating, I think the

819
00:39:46.239 --> 00:39:49.280
<v Speaker 2>cheating and casinos is going to be you know, it's

820
00:39:49.280 --> 00:39:51.400
<v Speaker 2>going to be the collusion in it. So that sort

821
00:39:51.400 --> 00:39:53.000
<v Speaker 2>of inside of threat is going to be the biggest

822
00:39:53.000 --> 00:39:54.920
<v Speaker 2>deal for cheating and casines. You know, it's still it's

823
00:39:54.920 --> 00:39:57.320
<v Speaker 2>still going to be the case that someone somewhere is

824
00:39:57.360 --> 00:39:59.079
<v Speaker 2>going to try and get some papers and markets in

825
00:39:59.159 --> 00:40:01.840
<v Speaker 2>or casino from the inside so that people from the

826
00:40:01.880 --> 00:40:04.920
<v Speaker 2>outside can take it off. And if they're smart, they'll

827
00:40:04.920 --> 00:40:07.079
<v Speaker 2>take it off over time. They won't be greedy. And

828
00:40:07.199 --> 00:40:09.360
<v Speaker 2>you know, because you know, one of the lessons from

829
00:40:09.639 --> 00:40:13.159
<v Speaker 2>from these books my book is is that greed is

830
00:40:13.159 --> 00:40:16.360
<v Speaker 2>a killer. Discipline and greed are the two problems that

831
00:40:16.440 --> 00:40:16.880
<v Speaker 2>cheets have.

832
00:40:17.519 --> 00:40:21.199
<v Speaker 1>So we have a mutual friend and I say to him,

833
00:40:21.239 --> 00:40:24.480
<v Speaker 1>you know, the problem with you guys is not only

834
00:40:24.519 --> 00:40:27.039
<v Speaker 1>do you guys not want to have a losing session,

835
00:40:27.480 --> 00:40:30.039
<v Speaker 1>you don't want to lose a hand, you know. I

836
00:40:30.079 --> 00:40:33.559
<v Speaker 1>mean if they just played a little bit of cover

837
00:40:33.679 --> 00:40:39.000
<v Speaker 1>and settled for only having a fifty percent advantage or something,

838
00:40:39.119 --> 00:40:43.039
<v Speaker 1>you know. But yeah, they do so many stupid things

839
00:40:43.079 --> 00:40:46.039
<v Speaker 1>that just shoot themselves on the foot.

840
00:40:46.239 --> 00:40:48.239
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. That and that comes through in the book when

841
00:40:48.280 --> 00:40:50.719
<v Speaker 2>we talk about people like Santa Rosa Jimmy. You know,

842
00:40:50.760 --> 00:40:53.199
<v Speaker 2>he just couldn't leave a nickel on the table. He

843
00:40:53.320 --> 00:40:55.719
<v Speaker 2>just had to steal everything. You know. It's like it's

844
00:40:55.719 --> 00:40:58.079
<v Speaker 2>just a lack of discipline. And because those guys had

845
00:40:58.079 --> 00:41:00.679
<v Speaker 2>the mentality of a road hustler, it's like, well, it

846
00:41:00.679 --> 00:41:02.840
<v Speaker 2>doesn't matter if we burn it up here tonight, We're

847
00:41:02.880 --> 00:41:05.159
<v Speaker 2>just going to move on to the next place, you know.

848
00:41:05.280 --> 00:41:08.440
<v Speaker 2>So they don't care. But then you read somebody like

849
00:41:09.199 --> 00:41:11.480
<v Speaker 2>Bobby A when he talks in the last chapter of

850
00:41:11.519 --> 00:41:13.800
<v Speaker 2>the book, and he's like he's so angry with his

851
00:41:13.840 --> 00:41:16.559
<v Speaker 2>partners because he's like, if you guys had had some discipline,

852
00:41:16.599 --> 00:41:19.000
<v Speaker 2>we could have gone forever with this play. We could

853
00:41:19.000 --> 00:41:21.400
<v Speaker 2>have just made money. Everybody could have been fine if

854
00:41:21.400 --> 00:41:23.760
<v Speaker 2>we've just flown under the radar and not developed a

855
00:41:23.800 --> 00:41:26.639
<v Speaker 2>profile of activity. But these guys, they just couldn't do it.

856
00:41:26.679 --> 00:41:30.320
<v Speaker 2>They just lacked discipline. It's just it's not that they're dumb,

857
00:41:30.320 --> 00:41:32.320
<v Speaker 2>but they are dumb. I mean, they're not low IQ,

858
00:41:32.519 --> 00:41:35.480
<v Speaker 2>they're just not They just don't have a strategic view,

859
00:41:37.079 --> 00:41:38.400
<v Speaker 2>right right.

860
00:41:38.920 --> 00:41:41.440
<v Speaker 1>So are you are you a I mean, I know

861
00:41:41.480 --> 00:41:44.280
<v Speaker 1>your background isn't magic, but do you work as a magician?

862
00:41:45.039 --> 00:41:46.960
<v Speaker 2>No, I don't. I don't. I worked as a magician

863
00:41:47.039 --> 00:41:49.440
<v Speaker 2>many years ago, and I very quickly got involved in

864
00:41:50.280 --> 00:41:53.559
<v Speaker 2>a gambling demonstration. So my whole thing was I mean,

865
00:41:53.800 --> 00:41:56.800
<v Speaker 2>I like card magic. I've still got good friends who

866
00:41:56.800 --> 00:41:59.480
<v Speaker 2>are a really good card magicians. In fact, one of

867
00:41:59.480 --> 00:42:01.960
<v Speaker 2>my closest friends in life is a guy called Jason

868
00:42:02.239 --> 00:42:06.599
<v Speaker 2>Danny who had Jason on the show. Yeah, I saw that,

869
00:42:06.920 --> 00:42:10.280
<v Speaker 2>and Jason's kind of like my little brother, you know.

870
00:42:10.280 --> 00:42:12.480
<v Speaker 2>We were both very close to Darwin or Tears, and

871
00:42:13.320 --> 00:42:16.559
<v Speaker 2>we both do high end hard techniques and that sort

872
00:42:16.599 --> 00:42:19.480
<v Speaker 2>of stuff. But I don't do as much magic anymore.

873
00:42:19.599 --> 00:42:21.599
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I still remember like five tricks that I

874
00:42:21.679 --> 00:42:23.599
<v Speaker 2>used to do, and I can. I can dust them

875
00:42:23.599 --> 00:42:26.760
<v Speaker 2>off and do them, but it's really just not my interest.

876
00:42:27.079 --> 00:42:30.280
<v Speaker 2>My interest is the techniques of cheating, and that's always

877
00:42:30.320 --> 00:42:32.519
<v Speaker 2>been a passion for me. So if I'm sitting down

878
00:42:32.559 --> 00:42:35.239
<v Speaker 2>with a pack of cards. I'm practicing various card controls,

879
00:42:35.280 --> 00:42:38.480
<v Speaker 2>you know that come from the table deals, and especially

880
00:42:38.519 --> 00:42:41.239
<v Speaker 2>dice switches. I just have a I started off doing

881
00:42:41.239 --> 00:42:44.159
<v Speaker 2>a lot of card stuff, but now really my focus

882
00:42:44.199 --> 00:42:46.719
<v Speaker 2>is dice moves. I like those traditional dice moves, and

883
00:42:47.320 --> 00:42:49.800
<v Speaker 2>I guess I've always liked the challenge. So dice moves

884
00:42:49.840 --> 00:42:52.880
<v Speaker 2>for me sit at the very sort of pinnacle of difficulty.

885
00:42:52.920 --> 00:42:55.280
<v Speaker 2>The very very good dice moves are very hard to do,

886
00:42:55.920 --> 00:42:59.360
<v Speaker 2>and I do all of the hard high end dice switches,

887
00:42:59.480 --> 00:43:01.280
<v Speaker 2>the palms which is in the tip switch and the

888
00:43:01.320 --> 00:43:03.800
<v Speaker 2>fly switch, and that sort of stuff I don't do.

889
00:43:05.159 --> 00:43:07.960
<v Speaker 2>I think the next level above that is these dice

890
00:43:08.000 --> 00:43:11.719
<v Speaker 2>controls like the air ball that Robert Asil talks about

891
00:43:11.760 --> 00:43:14.360
<v Speaker 2>in the book and that I've known three people personally

892
00:43:14.440 --> 00:43:17.599
<v Speaker 2>that have actually worked that in clubs and casinos and

893
00:43:17.840 --> 00:43:19.880
<v Speaker 2>have made money doing it. But as you find when

894
00:43:19.880 --> 00:43:23.079
<v Speaker 2>you read the book and from Roberts comments, basically they

895
00:43:23.119 --> 00:43:25.320
<v Speaker 2>were covering their nut. It's just not effective. And what

896
00:43:25.320 --> 00:43:27.280
<v Speaker 2>we're talking about for the listener is that you take

897
00:43:27.280 --> 00:43:29.119
<v Speaker 2>a pair of dice and you shake them. It looks

898
00:43:29.159 --> 00:43:30.920
<v Speaker 2>like a fair shake and then you throw them and

899
00:43:31.239 --> 00:43:34.639
<v Speaker 2>you kill the six on one of those those dice,

900
00:43:35.599 --> 00:43:38.719
<v Speaker 2>and it's an amazing thing. And I don't know, you've

901
00:43:38.920 --> 00:43:41.199
<v Speaker 2>probably had a chance to see somebody do it, but

902
00:43:41.880 --> 00:43:44.119
<v Speaker 2>when you see it, it's out of sight. It's crazy.

903
00:43:44.800 --> 00:43:48.840
<v Speaker 1>So just to give the listeners a little more detail,

904
00:43:49.719 --> 00:43:54.559
<v Speaker 1>one die spins in the air. This is not a slide,

905
00:43:55.480 --> 00:44:00.800
<v Speaker 1>but the dye goes in the air and but does

906
00:44:00.880 --> 00:44:04.480
<v Speaker 1>not bounce off the back wall and it's spinning and

907
00:44:04.800 --> 00:44:07.960
<v Speaker 1>so it stays with the top side up and the

908
00:44:08.000 --> 00:44:13.079
<v Speaker 1>other die bounces off the wall. Yeah, and the problem is, yeah,

909
00:44:13.239 --> 00:44:17.800
<v Speaker 1>I've gone out and tried to make money at this

910
00:44:18.000 --> 00:44:22.760
<v Speaker 1>with somebody who spent many, many, many years working on it.

911
00:44:22.880 --> 00:44:27.079
<v Speaker 1>And the problem is that from above, from a camera,

912
00:44:27.320 --> 00:44:30.800
<v Speaker 1>it looks like a slide because you don't have the

913
00:44:30.880 --> 00:44:36.000
<v Speaker 1>depth perception. And even from you know, a boxman could

914
00:44:36.079 --> 00:44:39.079
<v Speaker 1>think you're trying to slide to die too. So you

915
00:44:39.159 --> 00:44:42.440
<v Speaker 1>can't do it over and over and over. You know,

916
00:44:42.760 --> 00:44:44.719
<v Speaker 1>maybe you get to do it once or twice, and

917
00:44:44.719 --> 00:44:46.639
<v Speaker 1>then you've got to try to go to another casino.

918
00:44:46.719 --> 00:44:50.000
<v Speaker 1>It's just it's just a very difficult way to make

919
00:44:50.000 --> 00:44:51.400
<v Speaker 1>any serious money.

920
00:44:51.719 --> 00:44:54.039
<v Speaker 2>That's right, And you're right, you've got to turn it

921
00:44:54.079 --> 00:44:56.119
<v Speaker 2>from the eye in the sky. It looks bad. It

922
00:44:56.159 --> 00:44:58.800
<v Speaker 2>travels in a flat move across the top of the table,

923
00:44:59.039 --> 00:45:01.920
<v Speaker 2>even though as you've as you well know, because you've

924
00:45:01.920 --> 00:45:04.880
<v Speaker 2>seen it, you can put the cane across the table

925
00:45:04.920 --> 00:45:06.960
<v Speaker 2>and it's flying over that cane, you know, so you

926
00:45:07.039 --> 00:45:09.360
<v Speaker 2>know it's getting air. But it just doesn't look good

927
00:45:09.360 --> 00:45:13.159
<v Speaker 2>from the camera. So yeah, it's just but it's as

928
00:45:13.239 --> 00:45:15.039
<v Speaker 2>Robert Assiel caught it, the Impossible Dream.

929
00:45:16.039 --> 00:45:16.679
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

930
00:45:17.039 --> 00:45:20.559
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And that's different from all these guys who make

931
00:45:20.639 --> 00:45:24.159
<v Speaker 2>money by teaching people how to dice setting all of

932
00:45:24.199 --> 00:45:27.559
<v Speaker 2>these it's just such a sucker thing. And and and

933
00:45:27.559 --> 00:45:30.280
<v Speaker 2>and Bobby A is very very critical of those people

934
00:45:30.320 --> 00:45:30.760
<v Speaker 2>in the book.

935
00:45:31.159 --> 00:45:32.840
<v Speaker 1>Yeahs as well he should be.

936
00:45:34.039 --> 00:45:34.239
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

937
00:45:34.400 --> 00:45:37.800
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Well, anyway, I want to thank you for doing this.

938
00:45:37.800 --> 00:45:41.760
<v Speaker 1>This has been great and for the listeners. Again. The

939
00:45:41.800 --> 00:45:46.159
<v Speaker 1>book is called Thieving Bastards and it is available on Amazon.

940
00:45:47.280 --> 00:45:50.519
<v Speaker 1>Is there if are you on any social media? If

941
00:45:50.519 --> 00:45:52.719
<v Speaker 1>people wanted to try to get a hold of you.

942
00:45:53.480 --> 00:45:57.599
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So the book is available in hardcover from my website.

943
00:45:57.599 --> 00:46:00.119
<v Speaker 2>I'm in Australia. It ships from Australia, but it's it's

944
00:46:00.000 --> 00:46:02.239
<v Speaker 2>it's a big, heavy book, and it's a high quality book.

945
00:46:02.280 --> 00:46:04.719
<v Speaker 2>I know you've had a chance to read the book

946
00:46:05.280 --> 00:46:07.480
<v Speaker 2>and see it physically. It's a super high quality product.

947
00:46:07.960 --> 00:46:11.039
<v Speaker 2>But yeah, it's available from my website which is www

948
00:46:11.159 --> 00:46:14.920
<v Speaker 2>dot Thecolddeckcompany dot com, so you can get it in

949
00:46:15.000 --> 00:46:18.239
<v Speaker 2>hardcover there, and it's also available as a kindling. And

950
00:46:18.360 --> 00:46:21.519
<v Speaker 2>I'm also I'm on Instagram as the Cold Deck Company.

951
00:46:21.559 --> 00:46:24.159
<v Speaker 2>If you search for Andrewimhurst, you'll find me on.

952
00:46:24.719 --> 00:46:28.639
<v Speaker 1>And I'll put links to your website and your Instagram

953
00:46:28.760 --> 00:46:30.760
<v Speaker 1>and put I'll put links to all of it in

954
00:46:30.800 --> 00:46:33.719
<v Speaker 1>the show notes so people can confind you.

955
00:46:33.760 --> 00:46:37.079
<v Speaker 2>Thanks. I really appreciate it. As I said, I've been

956
00:46:37.119 --> 00:46:40.119
<v Speaker 2>reading your book and I really enjoyed the especially the

957
00:46:40.159 --> 00:46:42.199
<v Speaker 2>chapter with Chip Reese. And I was quite interested to

958
00:46:42.199 --> 00:46:44.760
<v Speaker 2>find out that he was the manager of the poker

959
00:46:44.800 --> 00:46:47.360
<v Speaker 2>room at The Juice from about seventy nine into the

960
00:46:47.400 --> 00:46:50.559
<v Speaker 2>early eighties, which is interesting because Rodd got his start

961
00:46:50.599 --> 00:46:52.159
<v Speaker 2>working as a cheat in the Juice.

962
00:46:52.599 --> 00:46:57.280
<v Speaker 1>Oh I know, and am I heard like whenever whenever

963
00:46:57.320 --> 00:46:59.639
<v Speaker 1>he was putting in a cooler on the poker table,

964
00:46:59.760 --> 00:47:01.880
<v Speaker 1>Chip would like high tail it out of the room.

965
00:47:01.920 --> 00:47:04.440
<v Speaker 1>He didn't want to be around when when that kind

966
00:47:04.480 --> 00:47:10.400
<v Speaker 1>of stuff was going on. So yeah, he has some

967
00:47:10.440 --> 00:47:13.880
<v Speaker 1>great stories about dealing at the dunes. It was too

968
00:47:13.920 --> 00:47:16.119
<v Speaker 1>bad that those those didn't really make an end of

969
00:47:16.159 --> 00:47:16.519
<v Speaker 1>the book.

970
00:47:16.599 --> 00:47:19.719
<v Speaker 2>But yeah, yeah, well actually.

971
00:47:19.280 --> 00:47:22.480
<v Speaker 1>I heard, I heard the very first time that he

972
00:47:22.679 --> 00:47:26.519
<v Speaker 1>dealt he he was dealing seven cards, standing, sat down,

973
00:47:26.599 --> 00:47:29.559
<v Speaker 1>shuffled the deck, dealt out the hands, and he dealt

974
00:47:29.639 --> 00:47:34.000
<v Speaker 1>himself in. And because you know, because he was he

975
00:47:34.039 --> 00:47:37.199
<v Speaker 1>was used to guardina where the dealer is, you know, yeah,

976
00:47:38.719 --> 00:47:42.360
<v Speaker 1>and the players are like, buddy, you know, you don't.

977
00:47:41.800 --> 00:47:46.239
<v Speaker 2>Need to play. I thought it was interesting that Chip says,

978
00:47:46.760 --> 00:47:49.280
<v Speaker 2>he says, you know, a lot of these cheats they

979
00:47:49.360 --> 00:47:51.079
<v Speaker 2>learned a cheap before they learned how to play. And

980
00:47:51.119 --> 00:47:53.559
<v Speaker 2>that's exactly what Rodd says. Oh, I said, you know

981
00:47:53.639 --> 00:47:55.159
<v Speaker 2>to me, he said, I learned how to cheat before

982
00:47:55.159 --> 00:47:56.960
<v Speaker 2>I learned how to play. And then once you learn

983
00:47:57.000 --> 00:47:58.760
<v Speaker 2>how to cheat, you never learned how to play because

984
00:47:58.760 --> 00:48:03.719
<v Speaker 2>you don't need to, right right. Well, thank you very much, Richard,

985
00:48:03.719 --> 00:48:07.480
<v Speaker 2>I really appreciate the opportunity. I really appreciate it absolutely.

986
00:48:07.760 --> 00:48:10.880
<v Speaker 1>Thank you, and have a good one everybody. I'll see

987
00:48:10.880 --> 00:48:11.480
<v Speaker 1>you next time.

988
00:48:12.800 --> 00:48:17.599
<v Speaker 2>Free audio post production by Alphonic Dot com