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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, they changed the goal life button.

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<v Speaker 2>It's just.

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<v Speaker 3>I know the UI designers feel like.

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<v Speaker 1>They're contributing, but sometimes, man, sometimes I question it.

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<v Speaker 4>Where we have some on the show.

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<v Speaker 1>If you're a UI designer and you swapped the order

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<v Speaker 1>of the okay and cancel buttons, give me a call.

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<v Speaker 1>You can talk.

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<v Speaker 3>Anyway, Warren. What's going on?

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<v Speaker 2>Man?

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<v Speaker 4>Well, you know, thanks for welcoming back.

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<v Speaker 5>I know the last couple of weeks I've been actually

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<v Speaker 5>out of commission traveling in Berlin.

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<v Speaker 4>But I have an interesting.

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<v Speaker 5>Fact for today the Adventures of DeVos, and that's in

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<v Speaker 5>the last three weeks there have been two different TOTP

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<v Speaker 5>mobile app providers who have both.

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<v Speaker 4>Been popped in some way and significant vulnerability has been discovered.

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<v Speaker 5>One of them just straight out sold to a let's

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<v Speaker 5>just third party. So it's a good reminder that passwords

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<v Speaker 5>are always insecure and mobile apps don't make it any

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<v Speaker 5>more secure.

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<v Speaker 4>It's really amazing.

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<v Speaker 1>Actually, I'm just going to say, a revenue stream is

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<v Speaker 1>a revenue stream is a revenue.

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<v Speaker 3>Stream, right on? Yeah, I agree. I wish that more

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<v Speaker 3>more providers supported.

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<v Speaker 1>Ub keys because I don't like those a lot, and

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<v Speaker 1>I hate the ones that say hey, we'll text you

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<v Speaker 1>a code. My great, that's not secure at all, but

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<v Speaker 1>thanks for making it harder.

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<v Speaker 3>To use your app anyway.

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<v Speaker 1>Joining us today, Marcus Thurner, Marcus, how are you man?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, thanks a lot for having me. Exciting to be

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<v Speaker 2>in a podcast.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's going to be an excellent podcast as I

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<v Speaker 1>understand it. And you are the director of technology at

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<v Speaker 1>Vista right, yes.

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<v Speaker 2>One of them. I'm booking in order.

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<v Speaker 3>Management right on.

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<v Speaker 1>And then we're just going to completely bypass that and

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<v Speaker 1>derail the show entirely because it says on your LinkedIn

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<v Speaker 1>profile you are a professional chocolate taster.

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<v Speaker 3>Is that a real thing?

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<v Speaker 2>That was a real thing. It's not a thing anymore.

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<v Speaker 2>It's just like, yeah, my wife had a startup for

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<v Speaker 2>four years in that being to bar chocolate making business,

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<v Speaker 2>and you gotta do what you gotta do as a

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<v Speaker 2>husband and taste chocolate and enjoy their mind. It was

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<v Speaker 2>a good time. But I think it's still good to

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<v Speaker 2>keep some fun stuff on a LinkedIn profile instead of

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<v Speaker 2>like it starts to be too serious O advice.

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<v Speaker 3>Right, Oh, I agree one hundred percent.

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<v Speaker 1>There was a time early on in LinkedIn days where

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<v Speaker 1>you could just indorse anyone for anything, And so some

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<v Speaker 1>of my friends endorsed me for professional gift expert or

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<v Speaker 1>something like that, because about ninety percent of the time

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<v Speaker 1>I'll reply with a gift or a meme instead of

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<v Speaker 1>actual text. And so for long, the longest time, I

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<v Speaker 1>was endorsed for that on LinkedIn, and then they decided

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<v Speaker 1>to take that seriously and removed it. And now you

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<v Speaker 1>can only get endorsed for authorized roles, but no professional Yeah, right,

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<v Speaker 1>like professional chocolate taster.

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<v Speaker 3>I mean I like the fact that it was.

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<v Speaker 1>For your wife because your vowels were for better or

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<v Speaker 1>for worse, and I mean that's just the job.

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<v Speaker 2>Absolutely absolutely.

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<v Speaker 5>I wonder if there's a connection though, like have you

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<v Speaker 5>been able to find a way to take the lessons

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<v Speaker 5>learned from startup chocolate making to back to the technology world.

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<v Speaker 4>Has there been any overlaps?

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<v Speaker 2>I think I think yes. I mean running a business

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<v Speaker 2>is actually you learn a lot more than you're a

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<v Speaker 2>single woman or you know, just a very tiny business

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<v Speaker 2>just trying to survive. You do everything right, you do

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<v Speaker 2>everything for your customers, you do everything for every cent.

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<v Speaker 2>And I think you know, I didn't live it personally.

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<v Speaker 2>I've worked in a tiny company before, so I did

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of that myself, so but I think that

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<v Speaker 2>is what comes daily into a software engineer's job. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>you're not nestily getting tasked of, right these three functions.

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<v Speaker 2>You gain tasks of solving a specific problem and then

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<v Speaker 2>it comes in and sometimes the problem is solved by

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<v Speaker 2>writing an email and not writing any code. So so

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<v Speaker 2>there is this sense of I want to do something

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<v Speaker 2>good for the customer and for the business or ideally

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<v Speaker 2>the mix of both. And yeah, and I think it's

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<v Speaker 2>a different drive what you have and what type of

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<v Speaker 2>skills at what you learn. And I think it goes

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<v Speaker 2>back to university projects where everyone does it in some

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<v Speaker 2>form or shape, and you know, motivation there and just

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<v Speaker 2>trying to be trying to make it the best what

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<v Speaker 2>you can at that point. But this older naivity what

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<v Speaker 2>you have, I don't know, fifteen year old in school

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<v Speaker 2>or twenty five year old in university. And so.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I think there's a tangential relationship there to freelancing

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<v Speaker 1>as well, because I did freelancing for a number of

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<v Speaker 1>years and I talk with a lot of people who

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<v Speaker 1>look at the rates that freelancers charge and they're like,

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<v Speaker 1>oh my god, that's amazing, and so I try to

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<v Speaker 1>caution everyone and say, okay, that's that number is big,

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<v Speaker 1>but you're not always going to bill forty hours a

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<v Speaker 1>week like you would, So like divide that number by three,

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<v Speaker 1>because for every hour that you work billing a client,

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<v Speaker 1>you have another hour of work for accounting and bookkeeping

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<v Speaker 1>and all of the stuff with running your business. And

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<v Speaker 1>then there's an additional hour on top of that where

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<v Speaker 1>you need to do sales and marketing and prospecting and

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<v Speaker 1>finding your next gig. So even though that hourly rate

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<v Speaker 1>looks big, you have to divide it by three to

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<v Speaker 1>realistically put it into.

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<v Speaker 3>Scope of what your actual job is.

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<v Speaker 5>I think you're under selling the stress that comes along

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<v Speaker 5>with it as well. Right, you're not just doing those

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<v Speaker 5>parts of the job that you normally think about. There's

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<v Speaker 5>every other aspect of it. And then there's getting away

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<v Speaker 5>from it and going back quote unquote home and still

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<v Speaker 5>thinking about your business because it's your livelihood, and how

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<v Speaker 5>to market in sales outside of that even when you're

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<v Speaker 5>not making anything for that particular customer. So I can

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<v Speaker 5>imagine there's a lot that goes into that for a

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<v Speaker 5>very small startup, especially one in the chocolate tearing space.

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<v Speaker 2>I think it definitely also depends on even though now

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<v Speaker 2>in software engineering or some technology aspect is I you

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<v Speaker 2>more into short term projects. There's just like a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of noise and overhead and phone calls to just make

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know this week, this week's gig works worth

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<v Speaker 2>it and that as much be Oh, I'm basically just

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<v Speaker 2>like a loaner and heavier project assignment. There is you know,

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<v Speaker 2>the economics change, but also you get a lower rate.

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<v Speaker 2>So I think in the end then market tries to

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<v Speaker 2>optimize for that. But like, yeah, you definitely learn also

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<v Speaker 2>back to those skill sets and this drive too. I

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<v Speaker 2>need to justify that hour, right, And I think that's

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<v Speaker 2>the beauty of external people. They show up, they need

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<v Speaker 2>to justify every single hour. And if external people are

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<v Speaker 2>used the right way, independent on whether they come from

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<v Speaker 2>a big company type of consultancy or as a one

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<v Speaker 2>person is they don't have the ow ahead of a company, right,

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<v Speaker 2>And that's that's I think important as you collaborate with

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<v Speaker 2>those external people and making sure this hour needs to

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<v Speaker 2>value differently than an internal one. The internal one you

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<v Speaker 2>train that person to be excited in five years to

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<v Speaker 2>grow internally versus for the other one like, this is

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<v Speaker 2>the task in a week you on, this is how

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<v Speaker 2>I can can actually get the value out of it,

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<v Speaker 2>and also, hey, I paid you that, but you also delivered.

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<v Speaker 2>I think that's really interesting dynamics, but often an oversight

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<v Speaker 2>for those who are on the other hand, so not

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<v Speaker 2>the freelancer, but actually receiving the freelance work and actually

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<v Speaker 2>make that, make that a thing, and make make it

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<v Speaker 2>work and make it valuable.

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<v Speaker 3>For sure.

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<v Speaker 1>So let's shift gears a little bit and talk about

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<v Speaker 1>engineering excellence because that is our topic for the day.

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<v Speaker 1>So Marcus, give us, like your your high level thoughts

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<v Speaker 1>on what is engineering excellence and why it's important to you?

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<v Speaker 2>Mm hm. So I think it potentially builds up a

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<v Speaker 2>little bit on where you started us here on you're

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<v Speaker 2>just just having to drive on figuring out what's best

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<v Speaker 2>for the business and the customer in the end, right,

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<v Speaker 2>and you just like it's not fulfilling a chop description,

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<v Speaker 2>but it's just whatever needs to get done. But that said,

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<v Speaker 2>let's let's focus more on the excellence part of the

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<v Speaker 2>engineering part and probably start with what is excellent, right,

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<v Speaker 2>there's probably variety of definitions when you look up on

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<v Speaker 2>the dictionaries and like it's wake, but some of those

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<v Speaker 2>sentence has definitely resonated to see you it's something like

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<v Speaker 2>greatness or being the very best, and you know there's

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<v Speaker 2>millions of soft engineers in the world. Not everyone can

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<v Speaker 2>be the very best. Not everyone can be you know,

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<v Speaker 2>these star singers or star sports and athletes and so on.

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<v Speaker 2>But nevertheless, you know, look, look look at other disciplines

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<v Speaker 2>like sports. You might not become, you know, the next

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<v Speaker 2>world champion of whatever sports, but you can look at them,

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<v Speaker 2>you learn from them, and you kind of strive to

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<v Speaker 2>do better even if you know you're never getting there.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, you might have your lab times on money

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<v Speaker 2>and then you just might want to be ten seconds

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<v Speaker 2>faster in half a year and you're proud of that

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<v Speaker 2>and you're striving for this incremental improvement. So anyway, so excellence,

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<v Speaker 2>I think it obviously depends on where you're coming from,

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<v Speaker 2>but generally it is about the relentless drive to become

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<v Speaker 2>to envision that greatness and embrace it and make iterations

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<v Speaker 2>towards that. And I think it's a little bit harder

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<v Speaker 2>to find what does this mean in a job that's

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<v Speaker 2>not so you know, you don't get so many medals

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<v Speaker 2>by being the best. You don't get you know, you're

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<v Speaker 2>not this key champion who is the fastest. You're not

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<v Speaker 2>the golf of who uses the least amount of things.

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<v Speaker 2>You're not now in the you know, Couper America and

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<v Speaker 2>the European World CHAMPIONIP, there's just one team winning it.

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<v Speaker 2>But nevertheless, those who are already out of the race,

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<v Speaker 2>they they're part of the excellent strive as well, So

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<v Speaker 2>let's not forget that. So it's definitely very inclusive of

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of people here. But nevertheless, I think all

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<v Speaker 2>of those who are on that playing field, they are

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<v Speaker 2>they're just like doing one more thing than anyone else.

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<v Speaker 2>So anyway, so how does that translate a little bit

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<v Speaker 2>into engineering? And I think one of the interesting talks

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<v Speaker 2>probably that that many might know is Lenis Tobo's defining

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<v Speaker 2>good taste software. And he did that in a TED

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<v Speaker 2>talk something like ten years ago and showed like, hey,

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<v Speaker 2>this is how computer science teaches you to remove an

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<v Speaker 2>item of a single lecklist or something like that, and

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<v Speaker 2>it had this if condition in it. He must not

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<v Speaker 2>lessly water by what he is taught by computer science,

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<v Speaker 2>But why these if conditions. It's just like there might

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<v Speaker 2>be a bug in this thing, and there's another if

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<v Speaker 2>condition added, and it just adds this complexity versus really

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<v Speaker 2>trying three layers deep of what's the thing, how can

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<v Speaker 2>you solve it? And how can you solve it in

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<v Speaker 2>a way that is just like, that's the thing, what

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<v Speaker 2>it does. There's no discussions about it. There's basically no

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<v Speaker 2>way of an alternative pass if the first one and

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<v Speaker 2>the last one or the middle one and so on,

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<v Speaker 2>Like all of a sudden, you get into no, that's

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<v Speaker 2>the thing, no matter which item in the in this

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<v Speaker 2>list it is. And I think that one is an

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<v Speaker 2>interesting one in writing code and and I think now

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<v Speaker 2>these days is a lot of that is a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of us are working in the cloud or in some

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<v Speaker 2>other form of you know, computing environment. And I think

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<v Speaker 2>one of the interesting phase one I want to put

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<v Speaker 2>out here, and it's well, let let's let's start go first,

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<v Speaker 2>one step back. I think there are are two different things.

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<v Speaker 2>One is kind of on agreed baseline, and you can

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<v Speaker 2>set that in your company or for yourself. You can

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<v Speaker 2>set that at whatever level you actually want. Hopefully that

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<v Speaker 2>level of that baseline increases over time. But I think

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<v Speaker 2>those are you know, you can look at classical engineering

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<v Speaker 2>KPIs how quick are you to recover from a failure

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<v Speaker 2>in production? How quick are you able to in what's

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<v Speaker 2>the velocity in the team, what's the error rate? You know,

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<v Speaker 2>there's the Dora metrics out there, there's a bunch of

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<v Speaker 2>other ways to measure that. Whether you really measure that

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<v Speaker 2>or just like gut feeling type of measurement almost doesn't matter.

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<v Speaker 2>But like, that's the baseline security Laaren. You had an

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<v Speaker 2>example at the beginning, like you know, okay, how do

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<v Speaker 2>we you know, instead of increasing your password rotations, can

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<v Speaker 2>we actually decrease the amount of passwords we have in

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<v Speaker 2>our systems? Right, It's a different type of approach. How

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<v Speaker 2>you can think of that, And that's I think there

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<v Speaker 2>is I don't think there is a standard in the world,

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<v Speaker 2>but there's agreement of those argued things, right, And I

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<v Speaker 2>think then there's this other part which is not this baseline.

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<v Speaker 2>It's it's very drives innovation. They drive to try out

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<v Speaker 2>something new, and trying out something new in your environment

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<v Speaker 2>might be I've never worked in a cloud, but let's

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<v Speaker 2>run the first service in the cloud. Even though that's

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<v Speaker 2>a ten plus year old saying it might be oh,

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<v Speaker 2>this is how we do things here on running a

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<v Speaker 2>specifically workflow, and let's try and alternative way. You're not

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<v Speaker 2>getting into childscript front and frameworks because you try another

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<v Speaker 2>one every other week. I'm still ten years ago. Who still?

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<v Speaker 4>I mean, you be careful.

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<v Speaker 5>You gotta be careful there because I'm sure someone's still

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<v Speaker 5>using like ember or knockout or something like that.

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<v Speaker 4>That's that's still around.

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<v Speaker 5>I mean, there's an interesting question here of of how

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<v Speaker 5>do you even measure an engineer to be better and

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<v Speaker 5>whether or not the ext whence happens at an individual

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<v Speaker 5>level or at a team level. You know, I know

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<v Speaker 5>that I am a terrible individual software engineer, and I

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<v Speaker 5>shut her to think that someone will be evaluating me

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<v Speaker 5>on like the number of lines of code that I

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<v Speaker 5>turn out, because I know that number is incredibly small.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and even if that's the right metric.

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<v Speaker 1>So I think that's one of the things that I

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<v Speaker 1>think about when I think about engineering excellence is defining

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<v Speaker 1>how we're going to define excellent because I think it

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<v Speaker 1>varies from team to team. You know, each team is

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<v Speaker 1>going to consider different things important, and you can't have

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<v Speaker 1>everything important. So I think everyone just has to have

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<v Speaker 1>that conversation, you know, to say, these are the things

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<v Speaker 1>that we're going to consider important. And you know, maybe

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<v Speaker 1>that's going to change over time, but this is where

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<v Speaker 1>we're going to start, and everyone's on the same page.

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<v Speaker 2>There.

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<v Speaker 5>There is this underlying assumption though, that it's somehow not

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<v Speaker 5>directly related to the business, right because you know, otherwise

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<v Speaker 5>you would say somehow engineering excellence means delivering the right

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<v Speaker 5>business outcome or I mean maybe there's some business.

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<v Speaker 4>Metrics already, you know, why not use that term?

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<v Speaker 5>So I don't know, at least for me, it does

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<v Speaker 5>sort of spark this idea of what are we innovating,

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<v Speaker 5>what are we what are we improving.

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<v Speaker 4>In some way?

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<v Speaker 5>What is that really? You know, what is the meaningful outcome?

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<v Speaker 5>And I think the linus forbodes coding good taste is

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<v Speaker 5>an interesting aspect here because how you write that function?

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<v Speaker 4>How does it impact the business? Does it?

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<v Speaker 5>I mean maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. So what

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<v Speaker 5>are we even evaluating there and how do we even

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<v Speaker 5>do that?

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<v Speaker 2>Absolutely? And I think you know, going to the invo

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<v Speaker 2>versus team, in the end, it counts what the team delivers, right,

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<v Speaker 2>it's the same. But you have a team sports, you

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<v Speaker 2>can have the start plays and one star player often

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<v Speaker 2>can have a pretty bad team because everyone cages around

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<v Speaker 2>that star player and typically doesn't have much of a

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<v Speaker 2>chance against the team that's just very cohesive, especially I

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<v Speaker 2>mean catering for the start player as a cohesive team

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<v Speaker 2>that's very strong. But if they are fights behind the

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<v Speaker 2>scenes doesn't work anyway. So that sets back to the

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<v Speaker 2>sports andology. But I think it's it's really what is

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<v Speaker 2>the team coming out in terms of and I think

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<v Speaker 2>will do To your point, I think there's a few

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<v Speaker 2>things that are true almost no matter where you are.

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<v Speaker 2>I think you don't necessarily want to ship bugs to production, right,

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<v Speaker 2>so less bugs and production is probably a metric that

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<v Speaker 2>everyone agrease.

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<v Speaker 5>Controversial thought there. I don't want bugs of production. Tho's

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<v Speaker 5>got to disagree with you somewhere, Marcus, I'm sure.

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<v Speaker 2>And to be honest, I think what is a challenge

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<v Speaker 2>if you're and think of my role, I mean this

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<v Speaker 2>is this the print is a sizeable business, and you

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<v Speaker 2>know order management. You don't necessarily want to give away

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<v Speaker 2>or just for free because your payment didn't work, or

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<v Speaker 2>you want to block things that check out. So it's

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<v Speaker 2>a serious thing. You need to move very slow at

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<v Speaker 2>some point. And for example, for mine team, it is

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<v Speaker 2>like an interesting thing. Oh this is a new thing.

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<v Speaker 2>Don't work like you work in your usual environment. Just

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<v Speaker 2>like have a hecka on type of experience, or have

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<v Speaker 2>one person go off on basically an island for we

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<v Speaker 2>can come back and have this zero to eighty percent

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<v Speaker 2>solution out there. You're not going to break anything in code,

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<v Speaker 2>you're not going to make any customers unhappy. But it

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<v Speaker 2>allows you to move fast. So basically a little bit

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<v Speaker 2>of an unconventional approach. So yeah, shipping bugs into production,

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<v Speaker 2>it might actually there might be some use cases around

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<v Speaker 2>you know, prototypes, early things. Then you haven't figured out

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<v Speaker 2>the exact park market fit. That's it. I still argue

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<v Speaker 2>that you always scale down on features and have the

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<v Speaker 2>right quality because otherwise, when you ship something of these

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<v Speaker 2>little features that are all buggy, you're not going to

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<v Speaker 2>make product market fit.

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<v Speaker 5>So you're as a director of engineering, you've got like

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<v Speaker 5>four or five ten teams reporting to you. I'm not

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<v Speaker 5>sure that number is totally relevant. So when you're saying

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<v Speaker 5>sharing excellence, like you're actually putting these expectations on your

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<v Speaker 5>individual teams too.

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<v Speaker 4>Is it deliver faster?

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<v Speaker 5>Is it to deliver more of the right thing related

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<v Speaker 5>to the business, Like, how are you actually evaluating your

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<v Speaker 5>teams on this? Is it a metric you're even using

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<v Speaker 5>to evaluate or is it just is it some idea?

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<v Speaker 4>What is that for you?

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<v Speaker 2>I'm definitely the person who is more in the idea

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<v Speaker 2>than I mean, I'm very much data driven in terms

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<v Speaker 2>of wants to figure something out. I want to want

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<v Speaker 2>to chase that metric, and obviously, you know, I think

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<v Speaker 2>reasons because like chasing one metric, you're ignoring the other ones,

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<v Speaker 2>so you always need to counterbalance. But you know, there's

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<v Speaker 2>this this interesting discussions of not sure if I want

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<v Speaker 2>to go there, but like if you're doing the second

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<v Speaker 2>or third like even when you run AWDs elastic kumunated service,

359
00:19:57.920 --> 00:20:02.359
<v Speaker 2>but then you need the kuminat is out of lifetime, right,

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<v Speaker 2>they need to move to the next version. You can

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<v Speaker 2>close your eyes and hit that upgrade button in place

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<v Speaker 2>upgrade and hope for the best and you might be lucky.

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<v Speaker 2>But it's a little bit like I don't feel confident.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, there's there's order is coming in every other second, right,

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, this is is not something what you want

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<v Speaker 2>to play with. And once you have start having those discussions,

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<v Speaker 2>like there's other solutions out in the world where you're

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<v Speaker 2>not even in that problem, those other solutions might or

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<v Speaker 2>might not be a fit for the team. Right. It's

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<v Speaker 2>not saying we should go elsewhere, but we're definitely having

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<v Speaker 2>active discussions around that because we're our customers are not

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<v Speaker 2>not buying a comment adies upgrade from us. You're buying

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<v Speaker 2>business cards, bottles, t shirts, all those type of things

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<v Speaker 2>in our case or in other cases might be different things.

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<v Speaker 2>And and so it needs to come with this reality

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<v Speaker 2>check on you know what's I mean, what's this total

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<v Speaker 2>cost of ownership? Is the old style version of saying

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<v Speaker 2>it probably or very mechanical way and then it come

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<v Speaker 2>up with your business cases. But I think this is

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<v Speaker 2>things come up constantly, and that could be this service

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<v Speaker 2>is constantly making problems and creating noise. You want to

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<v Speaker 2>dive deep. Is it engineering excellence? It could also be

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<v Speaker 2>that other partners in the business are you know, not

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<v Speaker 2>aware of what they're causing. Like you know, think of

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<v Speaker 2>some configuration elsewhere three layers down in the system and

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<v Speaker 2>you have no idea, or they might be disconnected from

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<v Speaker 2>what actually that is causing. It might call cause customer

388
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<v Speaker 2>complaints and it's very very indirect and very very slow

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<v Speaker 2>feedback loop. And so sometimes it's not you know, the

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<v Speaker 2>problem might not be technical, it might be a process problem.

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<v Speaker 2>But generally this is also part of excellence, but they'll

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<v Speaker 2>be getting a little bit further into excellence of a team,

393
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<v Speaker 2>excellence of a pride team, excellence of an organization. And

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<v Speaker 2>I think, you know, yeah, I'm definitely more qualified to

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<v Speaker 2>talk about engineering excellence.

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<v Speaker 4>I mean, I like the Kobrinties example.

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<v Speaker 5>So if we say bad engineering excellence is just closing

398
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<v Speaker 5>your eyes and clicking the upgrade button, or maybe closing

399
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<v Speaker 5>your eyes and just letting a WUS charges more money

400
00:22:23.000 --> 00:22:27.200
<v Speaker 5>because it's on the extended lifetime support strategy, what what

401
00:22:27.359 --> 00:22:29.759
<v Speaker 5>is good engineering excellence in that in that situation? Like

402
00:22:29.799 --> 00:22:32.400
<v Speaker 5>what would you expect there on that spectrum?

403
00:22:34.200 --> 00:22:37.519
<v Speaker 2>Generally, I think, you know, maintenance should be low or

404
00:22:37.599 --> 00:22:40.799
<v Speaker 2>reasonable for the value you create as a business or

405
00:22:40.839 --> 00:22:43.119
<v Speaker 2>as a team. And you know, what's the value what

406
00:22:43.279 --> 00:22:46.000
<v Speaker 2>you create? Sometimes it is more tied to a revenue

407
00:22:46.000 --> 00:22:49.960
<v Speaker 2>stream and other times it's more tied to something a

408
00:22:50.000 --> 00:22:51.920
<v Speaker 2>little bit that decided. You know, it doesn't necessarily be

409
00:22:52.200 --> 00:22:56.880
<v Speaker 2>a dollar metric, but it needs to you know, not

410
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<v Speaker 2>not sure what would other companies and teams generally have

411
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<v Speaker 2>in their mind, but I would argue, you know, thirty

412
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<v Speaker 2>percent is stuff that engineers need to do to maintain

413
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<v Speaker 2>their status core and then you know there's this admin overhead,

414
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<v Speaker 2>but then the majority of it should be to move

415
00:23:14.000 --> 00:23:17.839
<v Speaker 2>the product forward, to move the projects forward. That comes

416
00:23:17.920 --> 00:23:20.119
<v Speaker 2>with coding, that comes up with his non coding activities,

417
00:23:20.799 --> 00:23:23.039
<v Speaker 2>and really doing good for the customer. You want to

418
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<v Speaker 2>increase that share of the you know, the maintenance activity.

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<v Speaker 2>So maintenance comes with there certain you know, in my

420
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<v Speaker 2>environment's a little bit of large companies, certain things that

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<v Speaker 2>are must do by a given date, certain upgrades, certain

422
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<v Speaker 2>compliance aspects and so on, and those you know, those

423
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<v Speaker 2>covering you know, ten inch percent, and they might come

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<v Speaker 2>up with some spikes and some lows and so on,

425
00:23:47.359 --> 00:23:50.799
<v Speaker 2>and the rest is I'm interested in the team rather

426
00:23:50.920 --> 00:23:55.000
<v Speaker 2>spending this thirty percent time in figuring out a new

427
00:23:55.160 --> 00:23:58.559
<v Speaker 2>service or new workload version to run, or a new

428
00:23:58.640 --> 00:24:04.960
<v Speaker 2>technique or documentation other thing versus. Yeah, this is what

429
00:24:05.160 --> 00:24:08.480
<v Speaker 2>we do. Twice a year. We just do it right

430
00:24:08.599 --> 00:24:12.359
<v Speaker 2>and think, think of something simpler than thencuminated is password rotation.

431
00:24:12.519 --> 00:24:14.920
<v Speaker 2>Probably want to get into rhythm or rotating your password.

432
00:24:15.359 --> 00:24:17.319
<v Speaker 2>Initially you pro might say, yeah, it's just three, let's

433
00:24:17.359 --> 00:24:19.200
<v Speaker 2>do it manually. And at some point you have fifty

434
00:24:19.279 --> 00:24:21.079
<v Speaker 2>and some point like, oh, this is a problem, right,

435
00:24:21.559 --> 00:24:26.319
<v Speaker 2>and sure give this too. Junior person to onboard to

436
00:24:26.440 --> 00:24:29.359
<v Speaker 2>launder systems and they go into fifty places and update those.

437
00:24:30.160 --> 00:24:32.480
<v Speaker 2>At some point someone comes in and does some automation

438
00:24:32.640 --> 00:24:34.720
<v Speaker 2>around this, and at some point you think, why do

439
00:24:34.799 --> 00:24:37.920
<v Speaker 2>I even have those passwords? So I'm so there is

440
00:24:38.079 --> 00:24:41.279
<v Speaker 2>very Yes, I'm going a little bit by feeling it

441
00:24:41.319 --> 00:24:45.240
<v Speaker 2>by noise, but then I'm fortunately have to have access

442
00:24:45.240 --> 00:24:48.559
<v Speaker 2>to a lot of data of thinking how many what's

443
00:24:48.640 --> 00:24:52.799
<v Speaker 2>the average password age, what's the rotation of it, what's

444
00:24:52.839 --> 00:24:55.400
<v Speaker 2>it over the timeline, and the timeline is very strong,

445
00:24:55.559 --> 00:24:57.440
<v Speaker 2>like if it goes up and you actually want to

446
00:24:57.480 --> 00:24:59.519
<v Speaker 2>go it down or the other way around, like you

447
00:24:59.640 --> 00:25:02.880
<v Speaker 2>can still acting before it explodes. And I think that's

448
00:25:02.920 --> 00:25:05.640
<v Speaker 2>a really really important thing. So thinking of you know,

449
00:25:05.759 --> 00:25:07.759
<v Speaker 2>this cuminating thing, it's not the worst thing what I

450
00:25:07.839 --> 00:25:10.920
<v Speaker 2>have in my team by far not. It's actually serving

451
00:25:10.960 --> 00:25:15.440
<v Speaker 2>a lot of value work. Those were things right from

452
00:25:15.480 --> 00:25:22.319
<v Speaker 2>a real engineering perspective, right, But nevertheless, it is distractions

453
00:25:22.400 --> 00:25:26.400
<v Speaker 2>and you're having you know, fifty plus seventy plus services

454
00:25:26.759 --> 00:25:29.880
<v Speaker 2>and each of that needs kind of a redeployment to

455
00:25:29.960 --> 00:25:31.799
<v Speaker 2>a new cluster if you want to move it over.

456
00:25:32.000 --> 00:25:34.079
<v Speaker 2>And then like even if you bring down the hour,

457
00:25:34.240 --> 00:25:37.319
<v Speaker 2>like let's just assume one hour per service, that's fifty

458
00:25:37.400 --> 00:25:42.160
<v Speaker 2>seventy hours per year, which is a week, giving you

459
00:25:42.640 --> 00:25:45.480
<v Speaker 2>thirty plus engineers working on the whole thing for the

460
00:25:45.599 --> 00:25:48.000
<v Speaker 2>year and doing that once or twice a week, it's

461
00:25:48.000 --> 00:25:51.400
<v Speaker 2>an okay thing. But not having that in the first place,

462
00:25:52.359 --> 00:25:55.119
<v Speaker 2>that's an even better thing. With thirty hours, you can

463
00:25:55.200 --> 00:25:58.559
<v Speaker 2>do quite a bit of other things that might actually

464
00:25:58.599 --> 00:26:01.279
<v Speaker 2>drive forward. So that is, for example, we have not

465
00:26:01.480 --> 00:26:03.240
<v Speaker 2>yet decided whether we want to get off of it

466
00:26:03.480 --> 00:26:05.680
<v Speaker 2>or not. But what I'm excited about the team now

467
00:26:06.200 --> 00:26:09.079
<v Speaker 2>looks at should we do something else, And very specifically,

468
00:26:09.119 --> 00:26:12.640
<v Speaker 2>a is ECS is a very you know, natural follow

469
00:26:12.720 --> 00:26:15.480
<v Speaker 2>up in staying on a WS. But you know, different

470
00:26:15.519 --> 00:26:18.920
<v Speaker 2>cloud providers will have very similar real cloud and options

471
00:26:18.960 --> 00:26:21.119
<v Speaker 2>and more managed versus less managed services.

472
00:26:21.880 --> 00:26:25.519
<v Speaker 5>Maybe this is an unfair interpretation of engineering excellence, and

473
00:26:25.680 --> 00:26:28.119
<v Speaker 5>maybe will we'll give me a thumbs up here or

474
00:26:28.240 --> 00:26:31.880
<v Speaker 5>down on how oft I am. I think maybe another

475
00:26:31.960 --> 00:26:34.839
<v Speaker 5>way of looking at this is challenging the status quo

476
00:26:35.160 --> 00:26:38.000
<v Speaker 5>in a way which may identify that what we have

477
00:26:38.559 --> 00:26:41.319
<v Speaker 5>could be categorized as tech debt. And I don't like

478
00:26:41.359 --> 00:26:43.240
<v Speaker 5>the word tech debt a lot, but maybe what you're

479
00:26:43.279 --> 00:26:45.720
<v Speaker 5>saying is, you know, what do we have right now?

480
00:26:45.960 --> 00:26:48.160
<v Speaker 5>Is it actually the systems that we want in play?

481
00:26:48.440 --> 00:26:51.559
<v Speaker 5>Actually the technology we want to be using? The stack,

482
00:26:51.720 --> 00:26:54.000
<v Speaker 5>the programming language frameworks, you know, are they actually the

483
00:26:54.079 --> 00:26:55.519
<v Speaker 5>thing that we want to be using or should it

484
00:26:55.599 --> 00:26:58.079
<v Speaker 5>be something else? And I think the point you made,

485
00:26:58.119 --> 00:27:01.000
<v Speaker 5>Marcus is that none of these things have anything to

486
00:27:01.079 --> 00:27:04.599
<v Speaker 5>do with delivering the business value on a short term timescale.

487
00:27:06.599 --> 00:27:08.839
<v Speaker 5>But there's like a long term implication here and an

488
00:27:08.920 --> 00:27:12.079
<v Speaker 5>expectation that the teams are asking themselves, Hey, you know

489
00:27:12.200 --> 00:27:15.799
<v Speaker 5>this technology you're using, should you even have to rotate passwords?

490
00:27:16.039 --> 00:27:18.039
<v Speaker 5>You know, this thing that you're doing constantly that you

491
00:27:18.200 --> 00:27:21.200
<v Speaker 5>may be baked into tradition doesn't necessarily make sense.

492
00:27:23.000 --> 00:27:23.319
<v Speaker 4>I don't know.

493
00:27:23.440 --> 00:27:25.240
<v Speaker 2>I don't know if I'm right there absolutely, And I

494
00:27:25.319 --> 00:27:29.759
<v Speaker 2>think this is I think challenge status crul of what

495
00:27:29.880 --> 00:27:32.079
<v Speaker 2>you're doing constantly. I mean, look look at look at

496
00:27:32.119 --> 00:27:34.319
<v Speaker 2>the world what it was ten years ago, and what

497
00:27:34.759 --> 00:27:39.599
<v Speaker 2>services did your favorite cloud provider have out there? I mean,

498
00:27:39.680 --> 00:27:42.200
<v Speaker 2>by now, you're just exploding in services. And sometimes it's

499
00:27:42.279 --> 00:27:44.039
<v Speaker 2>just like kind of a fake service on top of

500
00:27:44.119 --> 00:27:47.640
<v Speaker 2>three of their other services. But all services are also

501
00:27:47.720 --> 00:27:51.799
<v Speaker 2>getting better, right, so I think that is and they

502
00:27:51.920 --> 00:27:55.960
<v Speaker 2>find their very own product market fit. And just look

503
00:27:56.000 --> 00:27:58.680
<v Speaker 2>at something like S three what you were able to

504
00:27:58.759 --> 00:28:02.079
<v Speaker 2>do ten years ago versus now, how much of an

505
00:28:02.160 --> 00:28:05.000
<v Speaker 2>important pillar that is, for example for data lakes and

506
00:28:05.079 --> 00:28:07.000
<v Speaker 2>other things like who would have put the data and

507
00:28:07.079 --> 00:28:10.559
<v Speaker 2>do sequel statements on top of a three bucket? Nobody?

508
00:28:10.880 --> 00:28:14.359
<v Speaker 2>But today that that that's how the big data warehouses

509
00:28:14.480 --> 00:28:16.720
<v Speaker 2>actually make money, right and and like this this is

510
00:28:16.759 --> 00:28:19.400
<v Speaker 2>how technology was look at you know, we may chat

511
00:28:19.519 --> 00:28:22.240
<v Speaker 2>jokes about front and frameworks, look at where they where

512
00:28:22.279 --> 00:28:24.559
<v Speaker 2>they came from, and what are they doing today and

513
00:28:24.720 --> 00:28:28.000
<v Speaker 2>like including things like you know those server side versions

514
00:28:28.039 --> 00:28:34.160
<v Speaker 2>of it on how you can ventor things, and and

515
00:28:34.279 --> 00:28:37.799
<v Speaker 2>I think it's it's we should challenge basically every day,

516
00:28:38.160 --> 00:28:41.839
<v Speaker 2>what are we doing is this really necessarily and think

517
00:28:41.880 --> 00:28:44.359
<v Speaker 2>of how could we do things differently at the same time,

518
00:28:44.400 --> 00:28:48.400
<v Speaker 2>I think there is a beauty of not classifying something

519
00:28:48.599 --> 00:28:52.119
<v Speaker 2>just because it's old as tech dev but saying, look

520
00:28:52.200 --> 00:28:57.240
<v Speaker 2>at you're milking the cout here right, You haven't invested much,

521
00:28:57.559 --> 00:29:03.559
<v Speaker 2>but it still works and and I think there might

522
00:29:04.160 --> 00:29:07.039
<v Speaker 2>there might be a servileized function out there. Yes, you

523
00:29:07.160 --> 00:29:10.720
<v Speaker 2>might need to upgrade I don't know the library version

524
00:29:11.240 --> 00:29:14.920
<v Speaker 2>once a year, but it still does this thing. It's

525
00:29:15.000 --> 00:29:19.039
<v Speaker 2>not massive tech there. Would you would you design the

526
00:29:19.119 --> 00:29:22.799
<v Speaker 2>system exactly like that from scratch? Potentially not because the

527
00:29:22.839 --> 00:29:26.240
<v Speaker 2>world has changed, but it's still good enough and not

528
00:29:26.400 --> 00:29:29.839
<v Speaker 2>worth changing. Like you know, identifying those tipping points when

529
00:29:30.079 --> 00:29:33.880
<v Speaker 2>is it actually a value or an asset and one

530
00:29:34.480 --> 00:29:36.519
<v Speaker 2>when does it start to become a liability is an

531
00:29:36.559 --> 00:29:41.599
<v Speaker 2>interesting thing to think of. But I would not classify

532
00:29:41.799 --> 00:29:47.200
<v Speaker 2>any programming language or any past decisions as lessli tech there.

533
00:29:48.160 --> 00:29:50.440
<v Speaker 2>But you know, when you think of where's the world

534
00:29:50.480 --> 00:29:53.839
<v Speaker 2>going in terms of you know, relational databases were that thing,

535
00:29:54.880 --> 00:29:59.799
<v Speaker 2>and yeah, ten years ago it was still their thing.

536
00:30:00.319 --> 00:30:03.759
<v Speaker 2>No sequels started to be other things. But these days

537
00:30:04.079 --> 00:30:07.480
<v Speaker 2>when you hire someone off the university, they don't know

538
00:30:07.559 --> 00:30:10.519
<v Speaker 2>how to write sequel statements anymore because that's not being

539
00:30:10.640 --> 00:30:14.400
<v Speaker 2>taught in school they only learn no sequels and blog

540
00:30:14.480 --> 00:30:16.599
<v Speaker 2>storage and all those things. I think it's the right

541
00:30:16.640 --> 00:30:21.880
<v Speaker 2>thing to teach to them. But knowing sequel it's actually

542
00:30:22.000 --> 00:30:26.000
<v Speaker 2>good skill to have. So, you know, does my team

543
00:30:26.119 --> 00:30:29.160
<v Speaker 2>have a bunch of relational database yes? Is it worthwhile

544
00:30:29.640 --> 00:30:33.880
<v Speaker 2>changing that? I don't think so it is it worthwhile

545
00:30:34.119 --> 00:30:36.920
<v Speaker 2>maintaining it to something? Very say? No, you are satisfied.

546
00:30:37.039 --> 00:30:43.920
<v Speaker 2>Is the cost, performance, backup failures, all the whole criteria. Yes, absolutely,

547
00:30:44.000 --> 00:30:46.559
<v Speaker 2>we need to tame the beast if you want right,

548
00:30:48.119 --> 00:30:51.039
<v Speaker 2>but not all workloads require things on you know this

549
00:30:51.200 --> 00:30:54.599
<v Speaker 2>horizontal scalability and other effects. What you can actually get

550
00:30:54.640 --> 00:30:59.000
<v Speaker 2>out of no sequel databases. So that doesn't mean just

551
00:30:59.079 --> 00:31:00.759
<v Speaker 2>because you have this and you need to get off

552
00:31:00.799 --> 00:31:02.799
<v Speaker 2>of it, but you need to identify at some point

553
00:31:02.920 --> 00:31:05.480
<v Speaker 2>it might be, oh, now it's the right time to move.

554
00:31:05.559 --> 00:31:07.319
<v Speaker 2>It might come as a project, it might come with.

555
00:31:07.400 --> 00:31:11.359
<v Speaker 5>Something I'm wondering about, the who who who spends the

556
00:31:11.599 --> 00:31:15.359
<v Speaker 5>effort doing this? And I think maybe this is where

557
00:31:15.720 --> 00:31:19.480
<v Speaker 5>maybe the sort of thing that drove forward the mindset

558
00:31:19.519 --> 00:31:22.079
<v Speaker 5>in the first place, the movement towards DevOps uh, the

559
00:31:22.200 --> 00:31:26.920
<v Speaker 5>idea that more attention needs to be on evaluating the

560
00:31:27.400 --> 00:31:30.039
<v Speaker 5>excellence of our of the engineering that we're doing, and

561
00:31:30.359 --> 00:31:33.079
<v Speaker 5>maybe there's a cultural component to it that not everyone

562
00:31:33.400 --> 00:31:36.079
<v Speaker 5>is has the sort of mindset to look at what

563
00:31:36.160 --> 00:31:40.039
<v Speaker 5>we're doing today and actually improve it or fundamentally having

564
00:31:40.160 --> 00:31:42.799
<v Speaker 5>to change what we're doing. Uh that that can be

565
00:31:42.880 --> 00:31:45.319
<v Speaker 5>scary for lots of people as well. So I feel

566
00:31:45.319 --> 00:31:47.359
<v Speaker 5>like there's an aspect there which could have driven the

567
00:31:47.480 --> 00:31:50.960
<v Speaker 5>DevOps mindset, which was maybe a different team is responsible

568
00:31:51.000 --> 00:31:55.079
<v Speaker 5>for infrastructure, and maybe the sort of product teams say, hey,

569
00:31:55.480 --> 00:31:59.440
<v Speaker 5>other teams in our company are fundamentally responsible for doing

570
00:31:59.519 --> 00:32:02.559
<v Speaker 5>this innovation, deciding which version of Kubernetes, or whether or

571
00:32:02.599 --> 00:32:07.440
<v Speaker 5>not we're using Cerblus functions, et cetera. Ah Is is

572
00:32:07.519 --> 00:32:10.759
<v Speaker 5>there an aspect where every team should be doing something

573
00:32:10.839 --> 00:32:13.599
<v Speaker 5>in their own domain or do we think we've moved

574
00:32:13.680 --> 00:32:17.079
<v Speaker 5>the industry has moved in a direction where a lot

575
00:32:17.160 --> 00:32:20.960
<v Speaker 5>of these decisions are we've already identified which team is

576
00:32:21.000 --> 00:32:22.759
<v Speaker 5>fundamentally responsible for making them.

577
00:32:26.599 --> 00:32:28.880
<v Speaker 2>Well, I think I think it's at the engineer's hard

578
00:32:29.000 --> 00:32:32.839
<v Speaker 2>to actually make improvements in their own realm, right. I

579
00:32:32.920 --> 00:32:37.519
<v Speaker 2>think there's companies that say, heybe have a central team

580
00:32:37.599 --> 00:32:40.880
<v Speaker 2>that you know, manageerain things like but we provide a

581
00:32:40.960 --> 00:32:45.240
<v Speaker 2>link to a get up repository and magic happens, right,

582
00:32:45.319 --> 00:32:46.960
<v Speaker 2>And this is this is the script what you need

583
00:32:47.000 --> 00:32:50.319
<v Speaker 2>to put there, and here's some conflict what you can

584
00:32:50.680 --> 00:32:54.000
<v Speaker 2>you know, how it scales. That's a very valuable approach

585
00:32:54.079 --> 00:32:56.359
<v Speaker 2>to do it. And I think the approach today will

586
00:32:56.359 --> 00:32:58.920
<v Speaker 2>also be different than the approaches were done you know

587
00:32:59.039 --> 00:33:02.039
<v Speaker 2>ten years ago. Is basically sis ops and database ops

588
00:33:02.079 --> 00:33:06.240
<v Speaker 2>and managing deployments manually and sailors and you know, local

589
00:33:06.759 --> 00:33:09.720
<v Speaker 2>local things versus cloud cloud versions and son uh and

590
00:33:09.839 --> 00:33:12.599
<v Speaker 2>there is that. The way is your your ability to

591
00:33:12.720 --> 00:33:15.279
<v Speaker 2>run it as a basically as a Pride team or

592
00:33:15.400 --> 00:33:19.799
<v Speaker 2>as a small development team of you know, two pizza

593
00:33:19.880 --> 00:33:23.759
<v Speaker 2>teams type of size, right the Tannish people in total ah,

594
00:33:26.000 --> 00:33:28.640
<v Speaker 2>But no matter what model you are, you have different

595
00:33:28.640 --> 00:33:30.920
<v Speaker 2>responses with your task is really going into these whole

596
00:33:31.000 --> 00:33:36.319
<v Speaker 2>depthops from from you know, prop typing to delivering testing

597
00:33:36.480 --> 00:33:39.559
<v Speaker 2>to also running it production including your you know, on

598
00:33:39.720 --> 00:33:44.839
<v Speaker 2>call schedule, or it's a little bit more you only

599
00:33:45.319 --> 00:33:48.039
<v Speaker 2>you know you depending there might be some handover for

600
00:33:48.240 --> 00:33:53.039
<v Speaker 2>for monitoring. But in both ways you have areas where

601
00:33:53.039 --> 00:33:56.480
<v Speaker 2>I wanted to improve it could be on you should

602
00:33:56.480 --> 00:33:58.839
<v Speaker 2>definitely be interested, like when we look at very technical

603
00:33:58.920 --> 00:34:04.920
<v Speaker 2>metrics error rate, response rate, latencies, certain things. You might

604
00:34:05.000 --> 00:34:06.880
<v Speaker 2>have a little bit more leverage in one model versus

605
00:34:06.920 --> 00:34:10.960
<v Speaker 2>the other, but you should be interesting to understanding your craft,

606
00:34:11.719 --> 00:34:16.000
<v Speaker 2>which is in the end it is could be two ways, right,

607
00:34:16.079 --> 00:34:19.599
<v Speaker 2>One is really just writing the code and writing that

608
00:34:19.800 --> 00:34:22.519
<v Speaker 2>in a way that scales in terms of features, but

609
00:34:22.679 --> 00:34:26.480
<v Speaker 2>also in terms of performance and probably many many other angles,

610
00:34:26.679 --> 00:34:30.079
<v Speaker 2>right and you know, not testability and all sorts of things.

611
00:34:31.559 --> 00:34:33.800
<v Speaker 2>So that that's definitely want to but there is I

612
00:34:33.960 --> 00:34:35.559
<v Speaker 2>think when we go a little bit you a build it,

613
00:34:35.639 --> 00:34:39.719
<v Speaker 2>you run it model, you also have this you architect

614
00:34:39.800 --> 00:34:43.880
<v Speaker 2>potentially differently because running workloads in the cloud, especially when

615
00:34:43.920 --> 00:34:46.639
<v Speaker 2>you go into a little bit more of these ACYNC

616
00:34:46.840 --> 00:34:49.880
<v Speaker 2>processing type of things. Right, do you have an event

617
00:34:50.400 --> 00:34:53.199
<v Speaker 2>and something can happen in the back background, So think

618
00:34:53.239 --> 00:34:55.760
<v Speaker 2>of an order being taken in into the systems. A

619
00:34:55.800 --> 00:34:58.800
<v Speaker 2>bunch of things that are happening, but the customers don't

620
00:34:58.840 --> 00:35:00.440
<v Speaker 2>need to wait for that. They you don't need to

621
00:35:00.440 --> 00:35:03.440
<v Speaker 2>wait until this thing get shipped out while the browser

622
00:35:03.480 --> 00:35:06.119
<v Speaker 2>spends for two weeks. That's not really really right. So

623
00:35:06.400 --> 00:35:11.519
<v Speaker 2>there is a lot of these aspects, but like, how

624
00:35:11.559 --> 00:35:14.800
<v Speaker 2>would you architect something from scratch given the latest accourages

625
00:35:14.880 --> 00:35:20.079
<v Speaker 2>that the cloud providers provide. That requires constant challenging because

626
00:35:20.199 --> 00:35:23.880
<v Speaker 2>like five plus years ago it was SNS and SQS

627
00:35:23.960 --> 00:35:26.119
<v Speaker 2>on Amazon, but now with a vent bridge, it's just

628
00:35:26.239 --> 00:35:28.559
<v Speaker 2>like so many more features. And then how do you

629
00:35:28.639 --> 00:35:31.480
<v Speaker 2>do that between teams? Do you still go through either

630
00:35:31.679 --> 00:35:34.639
<v Speaker 2>arrest or graph Well or so API or do you

631
00:35:34.719 --> 00:35:37.280
<v Speaker 2>actually hook up some teams internally through some of those

632
00:35:38.000 --> 00:35:42.960
<v Speaker 2>you know, cloud native event systems. There's many ways to

633
00:35:43.039 --> 00:35:46.119
<v Speaker 2>get there, and like always can lead to excellence in

634
00:35:46.239 --> 00:35:50.360
<v Speaker 2>the very context. But I think just saying yeah, we

635
00:35:50.639 --> 00:35:55.119
<v Speaker 2>made this decision five plus years ago is yes, but

636
00:35:55.280 --> 00:35:59.519
<v Speaker 2>you're missing out on you can delete these three services

637
00:35:59.760 --> 00:36:02.480
<v Speaker 2>then just moving data around, which is solved by this

638
00:36:02.639 --> 00:36:04.920
<v Speaker 2>configuration over here in the cloud provider now. So I

639
00:36:05.000 --> 00:36:08.360
<v Speaker 2>think if you're not doing these type of things and

640
00:36:08.400 --> 00:36:11.440
<v Speaker 2>then assuming cloud deployment now and not any other type

641
00:36:11.480 --> 00:36:16.000
<v Speaker 2>of deployments, like yes, it keeps your team busy, it

642
00:36:16.159 --> 00:36:20.320
<v Speaker 2>keeps potentially team efficient. They might even have engineering excellence

643
00:36:20.360 --> 00:36:23.320
<v Speaker 2>within that code, but not owning that code at all,

644
00:36:23.760 --> 00:36:26.440
<v Speaker 2>but moving that to configuration and let Amazon who is

645
00:36:26.880 --> 00:36:31.360
<v Speaker 2>or Google cloud or asia scale that for you and

646
00:36:31.480 --> 00:36:35.239
<v Speaker 2>manage that for you. That's really where scalability and excellence

647
00:36:35.239 --> 00:36:36.440
<v Speaker 2>also it definitely comes in.

648
00:36:37.320 --> 00:36:42.360
<v Speaker 5>You said something really interesting about the amount of time

649
00:36:42.400 --> 00:36:45.679
<v Speaker 5>a team should be dedicated to engineering excellence.

650
00:36:45.760 --> 00:36:47.199
<v Speaker 4>I think you just sort of dropped it in there.

651
00:36:47.320 --> 00:36:48.880
<v Speaker 4>That's thirty percent number.

652
00:36:48.800 --> 00:36:52.639
<v Speaker 5>And I'm curious, you know, as another perspective here, maybe

653
00:36:52.679 --> 00:36:54.280
<v Speaker 5>will you've got one like how much time do you

654
00:36:54.519 --> 00:36:58.360
<v Speaker 5>do teams feel like in and around you, how much

655
00:36:58.400 --> 00:37:01.400
<v Speaker 5>time they actually have to invest in this? Because I know,

656
00:37:02.159 --> 00:37:05.280
<v Speaker 5>even at smaller company scale or larger ones, I know

657
00:37:05.320 --> 00:37:07.519
<v Speaker 5>there's like some expectations that go around, but then you

658
00:37:07.679 --> 00:37:09.880
<v Speaker 5>have maybe some product managers that come in and say, no,

659
00:37:10.000 --> 00:37:11.320
<v Speaker 5>we have to just deliver.

660
00:37:11.440 --> 00:37:13.760
<v Speaker 4>You know, how do you do do do.

661
00:37:13.800 --> 00:37:16.559
<v Speaker 5>Teams actually get that time to do this or is

662
00:37:16.599 --> 00:37:19.800
<v Speaker 5>it about cutting out that time and actually saying no, right,

663
00:37:19.880 --> 00:37:22.400
<v Speaker 5>you know, even though we have all this feature work

664
00:37:22.440 --> 00:37:25.320
<v Speaker 5>to do, we still need to spend this amount of

665
00:37:25.400 --> 00:37:28.079
<v Speaker 5>time really looking at what we've got in questioning our

666
00:37:28.079 --> 00:37:30.760
<v Speaker 5>status quo, like our engineer is actually being given that

667
00:37:31.199 --> 00:37:33.840
<v Speaker 5>capability or is this just you know a nice thing

668
00:37:33.920 --> 00:37:35.679
<v Speaker 5>to say and doesn't happen in practice.

669
00:37:37.239 --> 00:37:43.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it definitely happens in practice for my environment. It's

670
00:37:43.440 --> 00:37:45.840
<v Speaker 2>more or less depending on teams. And I think it's

671
00:37:45.880 --> 00:37:48.239
<v Speaker 2>you know, to response to my direct responsibility to enable

672
00:37:48.280 --> 00:37:50.800
<v Speaker 2>that in the team. And you know you're working with

673
00:37:51.159 --> 00:37:54.679
<v Speaker 2>you know, alongside product and alongside ux, so it's it's

674
00:37:55.360 --> 00:37:58.199
<v Speaker 2>it's my thing to defend that time, right Otherwise, I mean,

675
00:37:58.280 --> 00:38:02.480
<v Speaker 2>it's just one part of my job. But you know,

676
00:38:02.639 --> 00:38:08.760
<v Speaker 2>the company also values engineering practices a lot, so there

677
00:38:08.960 --> 00:38:13.360
<v Speaker 2>is a bunch of that filter filmed by already central things, right,

678
00:38:13.599 --> 00:38:17.400
<v Speaker 2>mandatory upgrades, mandatory things. Also, what we're doing as part

679
00:38:17.440 --> 00:38:20.360
<v Speaker 2>of quarterly planning is you're showing, Okay, how much do

680
00:38:20.440 --> 00:38:23.599
<v Speaker 2>you spend on things that someone else tells you to

681
00:38:23.679 --> 00:38:26.440
<v Speaker 2>do on the feature side, things that you actually want

682
00:38:26.480 --> 00:38:28.880
<v Speaker 2>to do for your customer because you understood that problem

683
00:38:29.039 --> 00:38:32.079
<v Speaker 2>really trying to do that, and then things basically in

684
00:38:32.159 --> 00:38:36.679
<v Speaker 2>this whole engineering excellence it's on even so I think

685
00:38:36.760 --> 00:38:39.199
<v Speaker 2>that it's probably the wrong world we want to call that,

686
00:38:39.639 --> 00:38:41.960
<v Speaker 2>you know, this maintenance moving forward. So I think there

687
00:38:42.119 --> 00:38:45.920
<v Speaker 2>is this excellent part which I think isn't is not

688
00:38:46.079 --> 00:38:49.199
<v Speaker 2>necessarily reported out there, but I think that is something

689
00:38:49.400 --> 00:38:53.519
<v Speaker 2>as the engineering leaders they are definitely responsible to get

690
00:38:53.599 --> 00:38:56.599
<v Speaker 2>that into the teams and the mindset of the teams

691
00:38:56.639 --> 00:39:00.239
<v Speaker 2>and the inn wilds right every individual there's forty hours

692
00:39:00.280 --> 00:39:04.639
<v Speaker 2>a week. Sometimes it can be someone is passionate about

693
00:39:04.639 --> 00:39:07.360
<v Speaker 2>the following block podcast like this one, and it comes

694
00:39:07.400 --> 00:39:10.880
<v Speaker 2>out with a cool idea to actually start. Others are following,

695
00:39:11.199 --> 00:39:13.400
<v Speaker 2>you know, some news, and others are actually interested in

696
00:39:13.760 --> 00:39:16.440
<v Speaker 2>reading the documentation on the cloud provider or SaaS provided

697
00:39:16.519 --> 00:39:19.079
<v Speaker 2>whatever and saying hey, there's a new technique, let's try

698
00:39:19.119 --> 00:39:22.800
<v Speaker 2>it out. I encourage really everyone to do that. That's

699
00:39:23.119 --> 00:39:25.360
<v Speaker 2>way harder to do and get that into the mindset

700
00:39:25.400 --> 00:39:28.320
<v Speaker 2>of everyone versus the otis is a lot of more,

701
00:39:28.639 --> 00:39:30.519
<v Speaker 2>you know, leadership driven and saying hey, by the way,

702
00:39:30.599 --> 00:39:32.880
<v Speaker 2>we need to do this for the long term health.

703
00:39:33.159 --> 00:39:36.679
<v Speaker 2>And it comes a little bit as yeah, the expectation

704
00:39:36.880 --> 00:39:38.519
<v Speaker 2>is that you're looking to that promise space.

705
00:39:41.559 --> 00:39:45.119
<v Speaker 1>I think that there's a lot of so let me

706
00:39:45.159 --> 00:39:50.400
<v Speaker 1>say this, if your definition of excellence is defined correctly,

707
00:39:51.159 --> 00:39:55.000
<v Speaker 1>I think a lot of the time and effort it

708
00:39:55.159 --> 00:40:00.840
<v Speaker 1>takes to achieve excellence just happens natively. And I use

709
00:40:00.880 --> 00:40:04.199
<v Speaker 1>an example of like a sports team. You know, every

710
00:40:04.320 --> 00:40:07.960
<v Speaker 1>member of a sports team has a different definition of excellence,

711
00:40:08.360 --> 00:40:14.519
<v Speaker 1>but each each team member's definition of excellence supports the

712
00:40:14.639 --> 00:40:17.239
<v Speaker 1>definition of excellence above that. So if you start it

713
00:40:17.360 --> 00:40:21.480
<v Speaker 1>like the franchise owner, their definition of excellence is to

714
00:40:21.719 --> 00:40:25.920
<v Speaker 1>sell as many tickets to their games as possible.

715
00:40:26.679 --> 00:40:30.119
<v Speaker 3>But then you get down to the coach, and the coach's.

716
00:40:29.840 --> 00:40:35.320
<v Speaker 1>Definition of excellence is to hire the best quality of

717
00:40:35.519 --> 00:40:40.639
<v Speaker 1>players for the team that creates a well performing team

718
00:40:41.039 --> 00:40:43.599
<v Speaker 1>that sells the most number of tickets possible. And when

719
00:40:43.639 --> 00:40:46.840
<v Speaker 1>you get to an individual team player, that person's job

720
00:40:46.960 --> 00:40:50.400
<v Speaker 1>maybe to you know, catch the ball and move the

721
00:40:50.480 --> 00:40:55.800
<v Speaker 1>ball down field, or to defend against the ball being moved,

722
00:40:55.960 --> 00:40:59.679
<v Speaker 1>or whatever their specific role is for that sport so

723
00:41:00.079 --> 00:41:04.440
<v Speaker 1>that their team performs better, so that they have the

724
00:41:04.480 --> 00:41:07.079
<v Speaker 1>support of the fans, so that they sell more tickets

725
00:41:07.360 --> 00:41:09.880
<v Speaker 1>to the games. And so each one of those people

726
00:41:10.000 --> 00:41:12.679
<v Speaker 1>have has a different definition of excellence, but they all

727
00:41:12.800 --> 00:41:15.480
<v Speaker 1>support each other going all the way up. And then

728
00:41:16.000 --> 00:41:19.119
<v Speaker 1>whenever you get down to that individual team player, they

729
00:41:19.280 --> 00:41:22.639
<v Speaker 1>know that they have to catch the ball or defend

730
00:41:22.679 --> 00:41:26.280
<v Speaker 1>the ball or whatever, and that's their metric that they

731
00:41:26.400 --> 00:41:29.519
<v Speaker 1>measure against. And so it's easy for them to make

732
00:41:29.639 --> 00:41:33.360
<v Speaker 1>decisions that either support or don't support that definition of

733
00:41:33.440 --> 00:41:37.119
<v Speaker 1>excellence because it's clearly defined with what they do and

734
00:41:37.239 --> 00:41:38.960
<v Speaker 1>how that supports the overall organization.

735
00:41:40.039 --> 00:41:41.840
<v Speaker 5>I mean, I feel like you too, just keep picking

736
00:41:41.920 --> 00:41:44.760
<v Speaker 5>up the football analogy and just the ticket in me

737
00:41:44.840 --> 00:41:47.880
<v Speaker 5>because both my teams have been kicked out of their

738
00:41:48.360 --> 00:41:51.360
<v Speaker 5>associated competitions. Right.

739
00:41:52.599 --> 00:41:54.960
<v Speaker 1>Well, I'll be honest, I'm a Dallas Cowboys fan for

740
00:41:55.079 --> 00:41:57.960
<v Speaker 1>American football, So I have no idea how to define

741
00:41:58.000 --> 00:42:00.599
<v Speaker 1>excellence because clearly I don't understan and the game.

742
00:42:05.320 --> 00:42:08.360
<v Speaker 2>So I think where you were going to is to me,

743
00:42:08.440 --> 00:42:12.199
<v Speaker 2>it's a little bit the business metrics, right Basically, the

744
00:42:12.360 --> 00:42:19.000
<v Speaker 2>KPIs that are are very outcome driven, and I think

745
00:42:20.199 --> 00:42:23.880
<v Speaker 2>the excellent part in that relation to sports will be

746
00:42:25.000 --> 00:42:28.000
<v Speaker 2>how how do people show up day to day on

747
00:42:28.119 --> 00:42:30.960
<v Speaker 2>that training, not leastly on the match, but almost more

748
00:42:31.000 --> 00:42:34.159
<v Speaker 2>on the training. How do they challenge each other to

749
00:42:34.280 --> 00:42:38.280
<v Speaker 2>become better? What's the unique training plan that they have

750
00:42:39.119 --> 00:42:41.159
<v Speaker 2>that is or it could be also you know they

751
00:42:41.239 --> 00:42:43.000
<v Speaker 2>bring into college and say, by the way, now we

752
00:42:43.119 --> 00:42:45.880
<v Speaker 2>know what the competing team does, so we can actually

753
00:42:45.920 --> 00:42:49.159
<v Speaker 2>outperform them through through the brain instead of through the body. Basically,

754
00:42:50.119 --> 00:42:52.320
<v Speaker 2>so I think that is that to me, their verre

755
00:42:52.360 --> 00:42:56.039
<v Speaker 2>it starts to be really, yes, everyone does that. Everyone

756
00:42:56.079 --> 00:42:58.280
<v Speaker 2>wants to sell more tickets, Everyone wants to have the

757
00:42:58.320 --> 00:43:00.400
<v Speaker 2>best coach, everyone wants to have the best players and

758
00:43:00.519 --> 00:43:03.719
<v Speaker 2>basically get the best performance out of the value invested.

759
00:43:05.119 --> 00:43:08.440
<v Speaker 2>But I think this the excellence is not achieved by that.

760
00:43:08.639 --> 00:43:12.440
<v Speaker 2>That's really achieving it by management, by you know, there

761
00:43:12.599 --> 00:43:14.679
<v Speaker 2>is a lot of value and that's needed in a corporation.

762
00:43:14.800 --> 00:43:17.599
<v Speaker 2>That's needed in the corporational e sports and a corporation,

763
00:43:18.159 --> 00:43:25.800
<v Speaker 2>you know, like this brand, but this excellence around like

764
00:43:26.119 --> 00:43:28.880
<v Speaker 2>how can I how can it be innovative in my training?

765
00:43:29.000 --> 00:43:31.639
<v Speaker 2>How can I be innovative in my nutrition? How can

766
00:43:31.719 --> 00:43:36.400
<v Speaker 2>I be innovative in in the tactics during the game.

767
00:43:37.119 --> 00:43:39.800
<v Speaker 2>That's I think where versus the next level? And and

768
00:43:39.920 --> 00:43:44.280
<v Speaker 2>also you can follow schoolbooks, you need to come up

769
00:43:44.320 --> 00:43:47.079
<v Speaker 2>with your own approaches and more un convention or buttn't

770
00:43:47.079 --> 00:43:49.199
<v Speaker 2>you're not necessarily your own, but at least you need

771
00:43:49.280 --> 00:43:52.239
<v Speaker 2>to read through those unconventional approaches, try them out, and

772
00:43:52.480 --> 00:43:55.480
<v Speaker 2>adopt them to your needs. So that that's a little

773
00:43:55.519 --> 00:43:58.320
<v Speaker 2>bit this type of how I would distinguish that where

774
00:43:58.360 --> 00:44:03.199
<v Speaker 2>it's engineering excellence, This is I think I was conflating

775
00:44:03.239 --> 00:44:05.000
<v Speaker 2>those a little bit before as I went to do

776
00:44:05.079 --> 00:44:07.280
<v Speaker 2>the other topic. But I think there's very good like

777
00:44:07.360 --> 00:44:12.119
<v Speaker 2>to draw a line on their excellent starts and they're

778
00:44:12.800 --> 00:44:16.480
<v Speaker 2>you know, engineering practices or you know, other things are

779
00:44:16.599 --> 00:44:18.480
<v Speaker 2>there to just like establish the baseline.

780
00:44:20.440 --> 00:44:23.079
<v Speaker 5>I think you really touched on an interesting aspect here

781
00:44:23.599 --> 00:44:27.199
<v Speaker 5>because I do remember reading a paper about how in

782
00:44:27.360 --> 00:44:29.760
<v Speaker 5>order to actually get better, we need to do that

783
00:44:29.960 --> 00:44:33.360
<v Speaker 5>thing called practice. And if we only do the execute

784
00:44:33.719 --> 00:44:37.239
<v Speaker 5>production thing, you know, show up to the games all

785
00:44:37.320 --> 00:44:40.239
<v Speaker 5>the time, we won't get.

786
00:44:40.119 --> 00:44:40.800
<v Speaker 4>That practice then.

787
00:44:40.880 --> 00:44:42.559
<v Speaker 5>And the practice is where we have the opportunity to

788
00:44:42.679 --> 00:44:44.960
<v Speaker 5>really change up what we're doing or learn more.

789
00:44:45.440 --> 00:44:48.239
<v Speaker 4>And I do see the industry moving sort of at

790
00:44:48.280 --> 00:44:51.079
<v Speaker 4>the moment more away from that and forgetting that we

791
00:44:51.159 --> 00:44:51.880
<v Speaker 4>need to do the practice.

792
00:44:51.880 --> 00:44:54.360
<v Speaker 5>Maybe the engineering excellence really is what do you do

793
00:44:54.559 --> 00:44:57.760
<v Speaker 5>during your software development your engineering practice sessions?

794
00:44:57.840 --> 00:44:59.880
<v Speaker 4>You know, what are you doing there? How are you evaluating?

795
00:45:00.519 --> 00:45:03.079
<v Speaker 5>And there was a bunch of years ago there was

796
00:45:03.119 --> 00:45:07.800
<v Speaker 5>actually a documentary soccer documentary that was recording neymar and

797
00:45:08.079 --> 00:45:10.920
<v Speaker 5>the Brazilian soccer player, and they used.

798
00:45:12.880 --> 00:45:14.199
<v Speaker 4>Brain diodes to.

799
00:45:17.320 --> 00:45:22.000
<v Speaker 5>Identify how much he's thinking during a game versus practice.

800
00:45:22.199 --> 00:45:25.159
<v Speaker 5>And the interesting thing was that the actual amount that

801
00:45:25.199 --> 00:45:29.400
<v Speaker 5>you're thinking during production is very low, like almost no

802
00:45:29.559 --> 00:45:34.039
<v Speaker 5>brain activity at all when measured, whereas during practice there's

803
00:45:34.079 --> 00:45:37.000
<v Speaker 5>a lot of thought that goes into it into that practice.

804
00:45:37.360 --> 00:45:38.679
<v Speaker 4>And I don't know if there's a direct.

805
00:45:38.480 --> 00:45:40.400
<v Speaker 5>Corollary here, but I mean it really made me think

806
00:45:40.440 --> 00:45:44.239
<v Speaker 5>of this that maybe the engineering excellence is challenging how

807
00:45:44.320 --> 00:45:46.960
<v Speaker 5>we're practicing day to day so that we're ready to

808
00:45:47.079 --> 00:45:48.840
<v Speaker 5>do the actual production work.

809
00:45:49.239 --> 00:45:51.239
<v Speaker 4>And what does that even look like in the software

810
00:45:52.000 --> 00:45:52.840
<v Speaker 4>engineering domain.

811
00:45:54.039 --> 00:46:01.440
<v Speaker 2>I don't know that. I think you have the production right, yeah,

812
00:46:02.239 --> 00:46:04.840
<v Speaker 2>but it's like the deploduct production button is such a thing.

813
00:46:04.960 --> 00:46:07.360
<v Speaker 2>Can you do that? Calm me? Or can you only

814
00:46:07.440 --> 00:46:12.119
<v Speaker 2>do that you know under stress? Right? And that the

815
00:46:12.239 --> 00:46:12.760
<v Speaker 2>practice in.

816
00:46:12.800 --> 00:46:14.719
<v Speaker 4>This case, I mean, that's always stressful for.

817
00:46:14.760 --> 00:46:18.679
<v Speaker 2>Me, testing the automation, the error detection, the roullterback you have,

818
00:46:19.719 --> 00:46:23.079
<v Speaker 2>but the actual the result is that you have come

819
00:46:23.199 --> 00:46:24.159
<v Speaker 2>when you pushed it button.

820
00:46:24.840 --> 00:46:27.400
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's really that's a that's got that's got me

821
00:46:27.480 --> 00:46:32.920
<v Speaker 1>thinking a lot Warren where it feels like in some circumstances,

822
00:46:33.000 --> 00:46:35.760
<v Speaker 1>like our job, every day we're showing up to game

823
00:46:35.840 --> 00:46:37.599
<v Speaker 1>day and there is no training time.

824
00:46:37.719 --> 00:46:38.119
<v Speaker 4>Doesn't it.

825
00:46:38.719 --> 00:46:41.679
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, So it's like, how and I'm thinking about that

826
00:46:41.840 --> 00:46:44.559
<v Speaker 1>twofold like one, Yeah, it would be super cool to

827
00:46:44.639 --> 00:46:49.360
<v Speaker 1>have training time too, just like at a very fundamental level,

828
00:46:50.239 --> 00:46:53.320
<v Speaker 1>go do a test to compare E C S T

829
00:46:53.440 --> 00:46:54.599
<v Speaker 1>e KS.

830
00:46:54.280 --> 00:46:55.039
<v Speaker 2>And like.

831
00:46:56.639 --> 00:46:59.719
<v Speaker 1>Get enough experience to have an informed opinion as to

832
00:46:59.800 --> 00:47:04.360
<v Speaker 1>war or not. We should be making that migration between

833
00:47:04.440 --> 00:47:09.159
<v Speaker 1>the two. But from a business perspective. From a business perspective,

834
00:47:09.639 --> 00:47:16.719
<v Speaker 1>you know, do I want to fund my business in

835
00:47:16.840 --> 00:47:19.400
<v Speaker 1>such a way so that my employees have time to

836
00:47:19.519 --> 00:47:22.440
<v Speaker 1>go and do that stuff, or do I want them

837
00:47:23.199 --> 00:47:26.440
<v Speaker 1>gain day every day? Like if I'm just purely focused

838
00:47:26.480 --> 00:47:29.760
<v Speaker 1>on the numbers of my business, I want them I

839
00:47:29.840 --> 00:47:33.000
<v Speaker 1>want every day to be game day, regardless of the

840
00:47:33.840 --> 00:47:37.199
<v Speaker 1>implications on them for that. So there's like a there's

841
00:47:37.199 --> 00:47:38.840
<v Speaker 1>a trade off there that I can't quite wrap my

842
00:47:38.880 --> 00:47:39.920
<v Speaker 1>head around at the moment.

843
00:47:40.719 --> 00:47:44.480
<v Speaker 5>There was this joke, I don't know how based in reality.

844
00:47:44.519 --> 00:47:48.280
<v Speaker 5>It was about a manager talking to the I don't

845
00:47:48.320 --> 00:47:51.199
<v Speaker 5>know head of engineering saying, hey, you know, our engineers

846
00:47:51.239 --> 00:47:52.199
<v Speaker 5>need to be trained better.

847
00:47:52.440 --> 00:47:54.159
<v Speaker 4>You know that takes a lot of money and effort

848
00:47:54.239 --> 00:47:57.840
<v Speaker 4>and time. You know, can we just utilize them? What

849
00:47:57.920 --> 00:47:58.840
<v Speaker 4>if they're not good enough?

850
00:47:58.920 --> 00:47:59.039
<v Speaker 3>Right?

851
00:47:59.079 --> 00:48:00.760
<v Speaker 4>You know what I mean, No one's perfect.

852
00:48:00.760 --> 00:48:03.159
<v Speaker 5>As we pointed out, they don't maximize the number of

853
00:48:03.199 --> 00:48:05.840
<v Speaker 5>lines of code or business value, and so we do

854
00:48:06.000 --> 00:48:06.679
<v Speaker 5>need to train them.

855
00:48:06.719 --> 00:48:08.400
<v Speaker 4>And the concern is what if we train them and

856
00:48:08.440 --> 00:48:08.840
<v Speaker 4>they leave?

857
00:48:09.480 --> 00:48:11.960
<v Speaker 5>And the manager's response is what if we don't train

858
00:48:12.039 --> 00:48:19.880
<v Speaker 5>them and they stay? Right, Marcus, you're gonna say.

859
00:48:19.800 --> 00:48:22.920
<v Speaker 2>Something absolutely, But I think, I mean, training is a

860
00:48:22.960 --> 00:48:28.599
<v Speaker 2>hard one to really make. You know, there's some people

861
00:48:28.639 --> 00:48:34.239
<v Speaker 2>who are just like embracing it, uh, and others it's

862
00:48:34.320 --> 00:48:35.840
<v Speaker 2>just like hard. And also I see it in my

863
00:48:36.000 --> 00:48:38.159
<v Speaker 2>daily schedule. It's really very hard to get it in.

864
00:48:38.320 --> 00:48:41.679
<v Speaker 2>I mean, what works well for me is going running

865
00:48:42.400 --> 00:48:46.400
<v Speaker 2>over lunch and listening into a podcast. That's one form

866
00:48:46.440 --> 00:48:48.679
<v Speaker 2>of media consumption that works. And it's not just like

867
00:48:48.800 --> 00:48:51.679
<v Speaker 2>the doom scrawling type of value, but it's actually you know,

868
00:48:51.880 --> 00:48:55.079
<v Speaker 2>building up some some more thoughts and it's also have

869
00:48:55.199 --> 00:48:57.360
<v Speaker 2>to space time there. But I think, you know, in

870
00:48:57.519 --> 00:49:00.519
<v Speaker 2>terms of where you you might have been build is

871
00:49:00.599 --> 00:49:02.960
<v Speaker 2>I think there is a space where it's just like

872
00:49:03.559 --> 00:49:08.519
<v Speaker 2>there's constantly noise around a team. That's when you will

873
00:49:08.679 --> 00:49:11.920
<v Speaker 2>potentially even management will come in and they typically send

874
00:49:12.199 --> 00:49:15.559
<v Speaker 2>That's when the consultants show up, and when management shows

875
00:49:15.679 --> 00:49:18.840
<v Speaker 2>up and you know, weird reporting and someone looks at

876
00:49:18.880 --> 00:49:21.880
<v Speaker 2>how many metro crasts did they do yesterday, that's a

877
00:49:22.000 --> 00:49:25.719
<v Speaker 2>really bad sign. That's when you have underinvested. I think

878
00:49:26.239 --> 00:49:29.719
<v Speaker 2>there I'm talking to is already like, yes, you're bringing

879
00:49:29.800 --> 00:49:33.039
<v Speaker 2>up the point. Does is it valuable to do this

880
00:49:33.280 --> 00:49:35.800
<v Speaker 2>or not? Right? So we tried to sneak in those

881
00:49:35.840 --> 00:49:38.519
<v Speaker 2>type of things at the side a little bit. I

882
00:49:38.599 --> 00:49:42.280
<v Speaker 2>think there's certain things that are definitely of high value

883
00:49:42.400 --> 00:49:45.760
<v Speaker 2>of you know, think of not having passwords or it's

884
00:49:45.920 --> 00:49:50.840
<v Speaker 2>just like way simpler to manage, and it's also possible today.

885
00:49:50.960 --> 00:49:53.719
<v Speaker 2>Five plus years ago it was very very hard to

886
00:49:53.800 --> 00:49:57.400
<v Speaker 2>do and these days the systems have evolve. So I

887
00:49:57.440 --> 00:49:59.880
<v Speaker 2>think this is again like adjusting to huries the world

888
00:50:00.000 --> 00:50:03.360
<v Speaker 2>today and you know, the world has just innovated AI

889
00:50:03.440 --> 00:50:05.480
<v Speaker 2>in the last I don't know, it feels like cloud

890
00:50:05.480 --> 00:50:10.400
<v Speaker 2>three days and there's this whole whole hype cycle. Yeah,

891
00:50:10.440 --> 00:50:13.360
<v Speaker 2>the world is moving fairly fast, right, or you know

892
00:50:13.480 --> 00:50:16.320
<v Speaker 2>the cloud didn't exist ten years ago, that's only a

893
00:50:16.440 --> 00:50:19.760
<v Speaker 2>decade well, or you know, depending on what's the starting

894
00:50:19.800 --> 00:50:22.280
<v Speaker 2>point of the cloud, that's probably IBM saying the cloud

895
00:50:22.320 --> 00:50:24.480
<v Speaker 2>exists for the last forty years and their own world

896
00:50:25.360 --> 00:50:28.039
<v Speaker 2>did this different definition of that. But it's really really

897
00:50:28.119 --> 00:50:34.199
<v Speaker 2>moving fast, right and and not keeping up with that

898
00:50:34.760 --> 00:50:38.599
<v Speaker 2>is I think it gets you into a situation where

899
00:50:38.679 --> 00:50:41.760
<v Speaker 2>at some point a company might say, we need to

900
00:50:41.880 --> 00:50:47.599
<v Speaker 2>stop and we need a year to overhaul our accounting infrastructure.

901
00:50:49.199 --> 00:50:51.000
<v Speaker 2>And that's a really really hard job to do from

902
00:50:51.079 --> 00:50:54.280
<v Speaker 2>a team perspective, from a moral perspective, from actually can

903
00:50:54.360 --> 00:50:57.639
<v Speaker 2>you achieve that outcome? And you know, how can you

904
00:50:58.760 --> 00:51:01.079
<v Speaker 2>keep the customers happy? And so I think this is

905
00:51:01.159 --> 00:51:05.599
<v Speaker 2>the balance of that. Nevertheless, I think after that, even

906
00:51:05.639 --> 00:51:07.840
<v Speaker 2>if you don't, if you say, okay, scale down on

907
00:51:08.039 --> 00:51:10.519
<v Speaker 2>this bucket of making things better for the sake of

908
00:51:10.639 --> 00:51:15.760
<v Speaker 2>making it better is I think as an engineer, you

909
00:51:15.920 --> 00:51:18.320
<v Speaker 2>just want to have that. You want to have this drive,

910
00:51:18.480 --> 00:51:20.920
<v Speaker 2>you want to show off. And I think this is

911
00:51:20.960 --> 00:51:23.840
<v Speaker 2>also the opportunities that in the worlds have in corporations,

912
00:51:24.159 --> 00:51:28.760
<v Speaker 2>no matter what role they have and what level it is,

913
00:51:28.840 --> 00:51:31.800
<v Speaker 2>to showing off and saying I understand this technique, here's

914
00:51:31.840 --> 00:51:35.199
<v Speaker 2>a documentation, and you know it might become the de

915
00:51:35.280 --> 00:51:37.559
<v Speaker 2>factors standard how things are being done in the company

916
00:51:37.800 --> 00:51:40.480
<v Speaker 2>because it comes with the context of the company. It

917
00:51:40.599 --> 00:51:43.239
<v Speaker 2>comes with that. This is how we do deployments, this

918
00:51:43.400 --> 00:51:45.719
<v Speaker 2>is how we run things, this is the responsibility. These

919
00:51:45.760 --> 00:51:48.000
<v Speaker 2>are in the incentives. And if someone is able to

920
00:51:48.800 --> 00:51:52.960
<v Speaker 2>document it in a way or to create a create

921
00:51:53.000 --> 00:51:55.639
<v Speaker 2>some shared code that's easy to reuse and so on,

922
00:51:55.760 --> 00:52:00.119
<v Speaker 2>I think that's really really powerful and allows also the

923
00:52:00.239 --> 00:52:02.639
<v Speaker 2>junior engineers to shine. They might they might actually the

924
00:52:02.639 --> 00:52:06.039
<v Speaker 2>biggest druggle for them might be to put it out

925
00:52:06.400 --> 00:52:09.719
<v Speaker 2>into the world. Especially when it's an internal world. It's

926
00:52:09.719 --> 00:52:11.480
<v Speaker 2>almost harder and putting out there in the world and

927
00:52:11.519 --> 00:52:14.440
<v Speaker 2>nobody might see it, that's easy. But putting it out

928
00:52:14.559 --> 00:52:18.360
<v Speaker 2>internally and you have an intelligent purpose for that, it's

929
00:52:18.400 --> 00:52:21.880
<v Speaker 2>like you need you need some cheerleading from you know,

930
00:52:22.000 --> 00:52:26.719
<v Speaker 2>the basically the directors of engineering or you know, your

931
00:52:26.760 --> 00:52:29.480
<v Speaker 2>team lead to others to actually put it into a

932
00:52:29.559 --> 00:52:32.840
<v Speaker 2>shape that is not going to annoy the others, but

933
00:52:32.920 --> 00:52:36.280
<v Speaker 2>it's actually being appreciated. And that is really company and

934
00:52:36.880 --> 00:52:39.320
<v Speaker 2>political context that you need to fully understand to make

935
00:52:39.360 --> 00:52:41.559
<v Speaker 2>sure that you can do that. But it's I think

936
00:52:41.599 --> 00:52:45.000
<v Speaker 2>it's a big opportunity for everyone, and especially for more

937
00:52:45.119 --> 00:52:48.320
<v Speaker 2>junior or just like very technical savvy person who don't

938
00:52:48.320 --> 00:52:50.719
<v Speaker 2>want to deal with that, but actually would be interesting

939
00:52:50.800 --> 00:52:55.440
<v Speaker 2>to have that better excellence across all the teams and

940
00:52:55.519 --> 00:52:56.480
<v Speaker 2>not just for themselves.

941
00:53:00.360 --> 00:53:03.880
<v Speaker 1>So is that part of your definition of engineering excellence

942
00:53:04.079 --> 00:53:10.679
<v Speaker 1>is promoting promoting internal things within the teams and supporting

943
00:53:10.800 --> 00:53:17.039
<v Speaker 1>them and like mandating that feedback loop to encourage excellence.

944
00:53:19.360 --> 00:53:22.760
<v Speaker 2>Not necessarily mandating, but this is what I encourage you

945
00:53:22.840 --> 00:53:31.519
<v Speaker 2>to do this damage. Yeah, right, yeah, I think I

946
00:53:31.599 --> 00:53:34.280
<v Speaker 2>think I ut put that in and here we go.

947
00:53:34.440 --> 00:53:36.440
<v Speaker 2>Letten to the excellence part to go more into how

948
00:53:36.480 --> 00:53:38.159
<v Speaker 2>do you manage the people and how do you grow

949
00:53:38.239 --> 00:53:43.039
<v Speaker 2>the people? Is I want to encourage everyone on the

950
00:53:43.199 --> 00:53:49.079
<v Speaker 2>opportunities are endless, and yes, day to day this hard

951
00:53:49.480 --> 00:53:51.840
<v Speaker 2>first to identify the right thing for the right person

952
00:53:51.960 --> 00:53:54.320
<v Speaker 2>and so on, but like just simply the topics that

953
00:53:54.440 --> 00:53:57.519
<v Speaker 2>are on my plate. It's around security, it's about infrastructure.

954
00:53:57.559 --> 00:53:59.920
<v Speaker 2>It's about front and parts, it's about back in parts.

955
00:54:00.480 --> 00:54:04.039
<v Speaker 2>It's about you know, potentially libraries, it's about upgrades, about

956
00:54:04.079 --> 00:54:08.519
<v Speaker 2>deployment techniques. It's about challenging how we do run things

957
00:54:08.519 --> 00:54:10.800
<v Speaker 2>in the cloud. It might be a SaaS provided you're

958
00:54:10.880 --> 00:54:13.760
<v Speaker 2>using and oh be using that suboptimal and so on.

959
00:54:14.239 --> 00:54:16.880
<v Speaker 2>It is endless, and I think as you're an engineer.

960
00:54:17.000 --> 00:54:19.360
<v Speaker 2>You are seeing these things and I'm here, I'm not

961
00:54:19.480 --> 00:54:21.280
<v Speaker 2>even talking about the bugs you're seeing in your own

962
00:54:21.360 --> 00:54:24.639
<v Speaker 2>system and the and the error reports and other things. Right,

963
00:54:24.679 --> 00:54:27.119
<v Speaker 2>this is another part where you hopefully, hopefully that's your

964
00:54:27.119 --> 00:54:30.239
<v Speaker 2>first home. We'll just try make sure that the customers

965
00:54:30.280 --> 00:54:32.519
<v Speaker 2>are happy. Right, That's that's the first part where you

966
00:54:32.639 --> 00:54:35.760
<v Speaker 2>want to use the the data in terms of oh,

967
00:54:36.039 --> 00:54:41.280
<v Speaker 2>we had forty seven errors in this timeframe, we should

968
00:54:41.320 --> 00:54:44.880
<v Speaker 2>probably bring it down or no, this is really kind

969
00:54:44.920 --> 00:54:48.280
<v Speaker 2>of the maximum. How we like we just decided in

970
00:54:48.360 --> 00:54:51.239
<v Speaker 2>the team with with you know, senior input to know

971
00:54:51.400 --> 00:54:53.679
<v Speaker 2>this this this is good. Right, this is really world

972
00:54:53.679 --> 00:54:57.079
<v Speaker 2>class where you can be. But then all the other

973
00:54:57.239 --> 00:55:01.320
<v Speaker 2>topics it is just as you and you will be

974
00:55:01.400 --> 00:55:03.639
<v Speaker 2>welcome because a lot of those topics might not be

975
00:55:04.159 --> 00:55:08.800
<v Speaker 2>so passionately done by many much best female as an

976
00:55:08.880 --> 00:55:12.360
<v Speaker 2>admin task or I do the minimum versus those are

977
00:55:12.400 --> 00:55:15.119
<v Speaker 2>really unbound and you can have an impact that is

978
00:55:15.239 --> 00:55:19.960
<v Speaker 2>way across teams, way outside of your sphere of directly

979
00:55:20.000 --> 00:55:22.159
<v Speaker 2>influencing day to day. So it's both in the day

980
00:55:22.199 --> 00:55:24.239
<v Speaker 2>to day and how do you make yourself and your

981
00:55:24.239 --> 00:55:26.840
<v Speaker 2>team better and your softly you're directly supporting, as well

982
00:55:26.880 --> 00:55:29.639
<v Speaker 2>as the opportunity out there of if you do things

983
00:55:29.639 --> 00:55:34.480
<v Speaker 2>slightly more generic, share it slightly further, or you know,

984
00:55:34.679 --> 00:55:37.199
<v Speaker 2>raise your arm on you know, becoming you know, the

985
00:55:37.280 --> 00:55:40.079
<v Speaker 2>security expert in your team, and you'll learn all that,

986
00:55:40.239 --> 00:55:42.239
<v Speaker 2>and then you start looking at the data yourself and

987
00:55:42.320 --> 00:55:44.519
<v Speaker 2>to start crashing why are you doing it this way?

988
00:55:44.880 --> 00:55:47.519
<v Speaker 2>Start improving it into your own team, then starting sharing, Hey,

989
00:55:47.559 --> 00:55:50.119
<v Speaker 2>this is what it is. Those are the three steps.

990
00:55:50.159 --> 00:55:53.599
<v Speaker 2>It's that easy, Like, oh, once it's easy, others will

991
00:55:53.639 --> 00:55:57.480
<v Speaker 2>also do it. Versus this neverless thing of you know,

992
00:55:59.199 --> 00:56:03.360
<v Speaker 2>we might need to invest some technical spike time at

993
00:56:03.440 --> 00:56:05.400
<v Speaker 2>some point and it's in the backlog or the back

994
00:56:05.440 --> 00:56:07.480
<v Speaker 2>of our minds of people and it's never getting to

995
00:56:07.679 --> 00:56:11.719
<v Speaker 2>versus simplifying it, paving the path so others can just

996
00:56:11.880 --> 00:56:14.920
<v Speaker 2>walk it, and then hopefully if they're paved path, you're

997
00:56:14.920 --> 00:56:17.320
<v Speaker 2>not trying to reinvent the bill. You're just walking there

998
00:56:17.400 --> 00:56:20.599
<v Speaker 2>because you trust your colleagues. And the combination of those

999
00:56:20.639 --> 00:56:23.079
<v Speaker 2>also like appreciating this is one way of doing it

1000
00:56:23.400 --> 00:56:26.039
<v Speaker 2>might not be the perfect way, but it helps you accelerate.

1001
00:56:26.199 --> 00:56:29.000
<v Speaker 2>So it's both ways. It's not only sharing, it's also

1002
00:56:29.079 --> 00:56:29.800
<v Speaker 2>taking what's there.

1003
00:56:31.119 --> 00:56:31.679
<v Speaker 4>It's weird.

1004
00:56:31.840 --> 00:56:35.559
<v Speaker 5>I think that we put so much emphasis on needing

1005
00:56:35.639 --> 00:56:38.880
<v Speaker 5>to train up sort of inexperienced or junior engineers, but

1006
00:56:39.000 --> 00:56:43.000
<v Speaker 5>then when it comes to the teams as a whole

1007
00:56:43.280 --> 00:56:46.400
<v Speaker 5>or more senior engineers, I think there's a tendency to

1008
00:56:46.480 --> 00:56:50.599
<v Speaker 5>forget that there's an opportunity there to spend time actually

1009
00:56:50.679 --> 00:56:53.440
<v Speaker 5>reviewing what we're doing and like how we're working or

1010
00:56:53.559 --> 00:56:56.960
<v Speaker 5>how we're doing it effectively, even at an individual level.

1011
00:56:58.079 --> 00:56:59.880
<v Speaker 5>And I'm not really sure where that comes from. Maybe

1012
00:57:00.039 --> 00:57:02.639
<v Speaker 5>it's like once you reach senior engineer like that's it.

1013
00:57:02.719 --> 00:57:05.360
<v Speaker 5>You know, companies like that's it. You know you're as

1014
00:57:05.400 --> 00:57:07.920
<v Speaker 5>successful as you need to be for us, and junior

1015
00:57:07.960 --> 00:57:10.639
<v Speaker 5>engineers as long as you learn our systems, you're as

1016
00:57:10.639 --> 00:57:12.840
<v Speaker 5>successful as you need to be for us. But there

1017
00:57:12.920 --> 00:57:16.719
<v Speaker 5>is still that learning aspect there, and I'm wondering if

1018
00:57:16.760 --> 00:57:19.840
<v Speaker 5>it's enough to just say, spend take thirty percent of

1019
00:57:19.920 --> 00:57:22.840
<v Speaker 5>your time to learn new things, to listen to the

1020
00:57:22.920 --> 00:57:27.119
<v Speaker 5>Adventures in DevOps podcast, or you know, use new technologies

1021
00:57:27.159 --> 00:57:30.039
<v Speaker 5>and new UI frameworks, or whether or not there's something

1022
00:57:30.159 --> 00:57:33.400
<v Speaker 5>that we need to directly encourage to make that happen effectively.

1023
00:57:35.400 --> 00:57:37.800
<v Speaker 1>I think it has to be a much more active role,

1024
00:57:38.079 --> 00:57:43.960
<v Speaker 1>because it's far too easy for individuals, especially junior individuals,

1025
00:57:44.480 --> 00:57:48.599
<v Speaker 1>to see tickets in their backlog or work that's assigned

1026
00:57:48.639 --> 00:57:54.599
<v Speaker 1>to them and prioritize that over learning and education. Even

1027
00:57:54.679 --> 00:57:58.320
<v Speaker 1>whenever we say, hey, you should be spending time on

1028
00:57:58.480 --> 00:58:01.920
<v Speaker 1>learning and education, I don't think you can take a

1029
00:58:02.039 --> 00:58:05.239
<v Speaker 1>passive role in just telling them that and then assuming

1030
00:58:05.320 --> 00:58:07.119
<v Speaker 1>that they're doing it. I think it's something that you

1031
00:58:07.280 --> 00:58:11.199
<v Speaker 1>have to actively manage and track. Whether that's you know,

1032
00:58:11.599 --> 00:58:14.519
<v Speaker 1>telling them, hey, open a ticket and log your time

1033
00:58:14.960 --> 00:58:19.000
<v Speaker 1>when you're listening to the podcast or you know, or

1034
00:58:19.239 --> 00:58:21.280
<v Speaker 1>whatever the metric is. I think it has to be

1035
00:58:21.360 --> 00:58:25.079
<v Speaker 1>something that's that's active and measurable.

1036
00:58:25.880 --> 00:58:28.400
<v Speaker 5>I mean, they're not actually gonna know either, right Like

1037
00:58:28.559 --> 00:58:30.840
<v Speaker 5>they're in a you're in a spot, your team is

1038
00:58:30.840 --> 00:58:32.760
<v Speaker 5>in a spot where even if you said, hey, you know,

1039
00:58:32.920 --> 00:58:34.679
<v Speaker 5>spend a lot of your time on this, like what

1040
00:58:34.880 --> 00:58:37.199
<v Speaker 5>is the right activities that you should be doing or

1041
00:58:37.440 --> 00:58:38.960
<v Speaker 5>the right knowledge you should be gaining?

1042
00:58:39.480 --> 00:58:39.599
<v Speaker 2>Uh?

1043
00:58:39.760 --> 00:58:41.639
<v Speaker 5>And maybe that's why we I think as an industry,

1044
00:58:41.719 --> 00:58:44.599
<v Speaker 5>we fall back into like watch these YouTube videos or

1045
00:58:45.320 --> 00:58:48.559
<v Speaker 5>go to some conferences as if that's you know, the

1046
00:58:48.760 --> 00:58:51.639
<v Speaker 5>right way to just automatically make this happen. But I

1047
00:58:51.679 --> 00:58:53.599
<v Speaker 5>feel like that maybe even a little bit too passive

1048
00:58:53.639 --> 00:58:55.639
<v Speaker 5>as well. Right, you know, there's a lot of information

1049
00:58:55.760 --> 00:59:00.280
<v Speaker 5>floating around that doesn't necessarily convert into actual con crete

1050
00:59:00.400 --> 00:59:02.360
<v Speaker 5>learning that can be applied back into what we're doing

1051
00:59:02.440 --> 00:59:02.840
<v Speaker 5>day to day.

1052
00:59:03.480 --> 00:59:04.079
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, for sure.

1053
00:59:04.159 --> 00:59:06.559
<v Speaker 1>I think from my perspective, like whenever I first started

1054
00:59:06.599 --> 00:59:08.480
<v Speaker 1>going to conferences, I was like, oh my god, this

1055
00:59:08.639 --> 00:59:09.320
<v Speaker 1>is going to be amazing.

1056
00:59:09.360 --> 00:59:10.320
<v Speaker 3>I'm going to learn so much.

1057
00:59:10.440 --> 00:59:13.480
<v Speaker 1>And now I look at conferences as a way to

1058
00:59:14.519 --> 00:59:18.000
<v Speaker 1>completely screw up my inbox where I'll never get a

1059
00:59:18.079 --> 00:59:20.480
<v Speaker 1>valid email again because of all the mailing lists I

1060
00:59:20.519 --> 00:59:23.000
<v Speaker 1>get subscribed to by going to the conference.

1061
00:59:23.519 --> 00:59:26.480
<v Speaker 5>Minor LinkedIn connections are totally like I just got back

1062
00:59:26.960 --> 00:59:30.400
<v Speaker 5>from Germany last week, and like, I don't know who

1063
00:59:30.440 --> 00:59:32.480
<v Speaker 5>these people are that are connected with me.

1064
00:59:32.639 --> 00:59:34.239
<v Speaker 4>Like I try to, you know, approve all of them,

1065
00:59:34.320 --> 00:59:36.360
<v Speaker 4>and I'm like, I don't remember you. I'm sorry.

1066
00:59:38.440 --> 00:59:40.559
<v Speaker 5>Sure I did learn something though, as a speaker, I

1067
00:59:40.599 --> 00:59:43.760
<v Speaker 5>actually learned something really interesting, and that's it amazes me

1068
00:59:44.039 --> 00:59:49.440
<v Speaker 5>how many companies have on premise data centers or they're

1069
00:59:49.480 --> 00:59:52.559
<v Speaker 5>renting a data center from a third party provider where

1070
00:59:52.559 --> 00:59:55.119
<v Speaker 5>they're pretty much getting bare metal that they're putting stuff on,

1071
00:59:55.280 --> 00:59:57.599
<v Speaker 5>and they don't have a need for this, like they're

1072
00:59:57.679 --> 00:59:58.079
<v Speaker 5>not at a.

1073
00:59:58.119 --> 01:00:01.760
<v Speaker 4>Level or scale or industry that requires it.

1074
01:00:01.960 --> 01:00:05.559
<v Speaker 5>It's really quite amazing that there's just still so many

1075
01:00:05.639 --> 01:00:07.760
<v Speaker 5>in this field, and I wonder if it's a lack

1076
01:00:07.800 --> 01:00:10.599
<v Speaker 5>of engineering excellence that has left them there.

1077
01:00:12.280 --> 01:00:14.199
<v Speaker 2>Is the thing, right, right?

1078
01:00:14.440 --> 01:00:18.239
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I think there's been a resurgence in going to

1079
01:00:18.400 --> 01:00:22.960
<v Speaker 1>the data center over the last few years, and I've

1080
01:00:23.239 --> 01:00:27.480
<v Speaker 1>known quite a few people who are using the cost

1081
01:00:27.599 --> 01:00:32.400
<v Speaker 1>of AWS and GCP as the driver for that, But

1082
01:00:33.679 --> 01:00:40.199
<v Speaker 1>I'm not convenient completely convinced on that. For like, if

1083
01:00:40.239 --> 01:00:44.440
<v Speaker 1>you know what your workload is and it's pretty consistent

1084
01:00:44.840 --> 01:00:48.840
<v Speaker 1>and well defined, I think if you had a good

1085
01:00:48.960 --> 01:00:52.280
<v Speaker 1>data center provider that could send someone out to swap

1086
01:00:52.360 --> 01:00:56.159
<v Speaker 1>failed hard drives and replaced nick cards.

1087
01:00:55.840 --> 01:00:58.639
<v Speaker 3>And all that kind of stuff, it might work. But

1088
01:01:00.000 --> 01:01:02.159
<v Speaker 3>I don't know. That's I mean a lot of faith

1089
01:01:03.360 --> 01:01:03.880
<v Speaker 3>and there.

1090
01:01:05.079 --> 01:01:05.599
<v Speaker 4>I mean for sure.

1091
01:01:05.639 --> 01:01:07.599
<v Speaker 5>I mean you're in an interesting area though, Will, because

1092
01:01:07.679 --> 01:01:09.400
<v Speaker 5>like I feel like you deal with a lot of

1093
01:01:09.480 --> 01:01:13.400
<v Speaker 5>companies at Polagon that are in this weird domain that

1094
01:01:13.519 --> 01:01:19.599
<v Speaker 5>aren't necessarily cloud cloudish public cloudish optimized, right I mean

1095
01:01:19.639 --> 01:01:23.880
<v Speaker 5>consensus networks and cryptocurrency companies, et cetera.

1096
01:01:24.000 --> 01:01:26.360
<v Speaker 4>Like I get that, but there are just so many like.

1097
01:01:28.000 --> 01:01:30.559
<v Speaker 5>Companies out there that are startups or even larger companies

1098
01:01:30.599 --> 01:01:35.039
<v Speaker 5>that are spending sixty million plus dollars euros francs a year.

1099
01:01:36.039 --> 01:01:38.719
<v Speaker 4>Who thinks there are a benefit there? Marcus, you we're

1100
01:01:38.760 --> 01:01:39.639
<v Speaker 4>going to say something.

1101
01:01:40.920 --> 01:01:43.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think, I think you. It's a nice segue

1102
01:01:44.000 --> 01:01:46.559
<v Speaker 2>to one of the thoughts I haven't. And I was

1103
01:01:46.599 --> 01:01:49.000
<v Speaker 2>talking about, Hey, there's this baseline, but then comes to

1104
01:01:49.079 --> 01:01:52.159
<v Speaker 2>innovation in it, and innovation is a lot of different things,

1105
01:01:52.239 --> 01:01:54.760
<v Speaker 2>Like we talked about education, we talked about you know,

1106
01:01:55.639 --> 01:01:58.679
<v Speaker 2>you know, figuring out and taking on additional responsibilitiness on

1107
01:01:59.039 --> 01:02:02.239
<v Speaker 2>But one of those odds that have is basically, and

1108
01:02:02.480 --> 01:02:05.679
<v Speaker 2>it comes exactly where it's, oh my god, cloud is

1109
01:02:05.719 --> 01:02:10.039
<v Speaker 2>so Expensive's cost per compute is kind of a term

1110
01:02:10.119 --> 01:02:12.679
<v Speaker 2>that I came up and made up myself, but it's like,

1111
01:02:13.039 --> 01:02:16.519
<v Speaker 2>what's the cost you're spending for the compute you're using?

1112
01:02:18.440 --> 01:02:24.039
<v Speaker 2>And you know, basically, even in the cloud, you run

1113
01:02:24.199 --> 01:02:28.480
<v Speaker 2>things on a virtual machine. By definition, you don't want

1114
01:02:28.519 --> 01:02:30.679
<v Speaker 2>this to be more than ten or twenty percent CPU,

1115
01:02:30.760 --> 01:02:32.280
<v Speaker 2>and you want to have at least I don't know,

1116
01:02:32.320 --> 01:02:36.760
<v Speaker 2>fifty percent memory free. So you're paying paying the money

1117
01:02:36.800 --> 01:02:38.719
<v Speaker 2>what you should have in your pocket, and you do

1118
01:02:38.880 --> 01:02:44.000
<v Speaker 2>your team's bonuses into the bonuses of the cloud providers. Right.

1119
01:02:44.800 --> 01:02:48.079
<v Speaker 2>This is they're charging for CPU which they are actually

1120
01:02:48.199 --> 01:02:51.480
<v Speaker 2>not using. It's all these shared hosting environments. So that's

1121
01:02:51.559 --> 01:02:56.280
<v Speaker 2>their game, right, and that's their margin. And yet it

1122
01:02:56.400 --> 01:02:59.920
<v Speaker 2>is relatively attractive. So I think this is also very

1123
01:03:00.159 --> 01:03:02.840
<v Speaker 2>this innovation comes in. So how do you actually bring

1124
01:03:04.920 --> 01:03:07.599
<v Speaker 2>I think if you optimize cost per compute, so not

1125
01:03:07.760 --> 01:03:10.320
<v Speaker 2>purely cost, because purely cost of organization is just like

1126
01:03:10.400 --> 01:03:14.280
<v Speaker 2>turn everything off and you're done right of the business.

1127
01:03:14.519 --> 01:03:18.480
<v Speaker 2>You will never ever have costs again. And I think

1128
01:03:18.519 --> 01:03:21.440
<v Speaker 2>the alternative if it's just like run everything on AWS,

1129
01:03:21.559 --> 01:03:25.599
<v Speaker 2>LANDA or whatever your serverlized function is, might also not

1130
01:03:25.760 --> 01:03:29.679
<v Speaker 2>be the answer. That also doesn't say you cannot use

1131
01:03:29.920 --> 01:03:32.840
<v Speaker 2>relation database. You must use down B or Mango, the

1132
01:03:32.880 --> 01:03:37.039
<v Speaker 2>B or whatever it might be. It comes way more nuanced,

1133
01:03:37.119 --> 01:03:40.519
<v Speaker 2>but cenarly, if you look at your cloud spend, cloud

1134
01:03:40.519 --> 01:03:42.800
<v Speaker 2>spend is very easy because you get your statistics over

1135
01:03:42.920 --> 01:03:45.679
<v Speaker 2>time and everything. You can analyze and tag things and sounds,

1136
01:03:45.719 --> 01:03:49.880
<v Speaker 2>so it's quite you can have this this engineering hard

1137
01:03:50.000 --> 01:03:52.000
<v Speaker 2>and start with the data and be data driven. Just

1138
01:03:52.079 --> 01:03:54.679
<v Speaker 2>trying to iterate there. But look at the top five.

1139
01:03:55.159 --> 01:04:01.679
<v Speaker 2>They're probably consuming fifty eight percent of of your money. Right.

1140
01:04:01.920 --> 01:04:04.679
<v Speaker 2>Some of that is justified because that's actually the workload

1141
01:04:04.719 --> 01:04:07.840
<v Speaker 2>that's running there. Others such just like wait a bit,

1142
01:04:09.000 --> 01:04:12.679
<v Speaker 2>you know it's waiting. It's it's mostly the margin on

1143
01:04:13.679 --> 01:04:19.199
<v Speaker 2>over provisioning. This is you know, relation databases you need.

1144
01:04:19.559 --> 01:04:22.400
<v Speaker 2>There's no way to scale up and scale down at

1145
01:04:22.519 --> 01:04:24.519
<v Speaker 2>least not you know, there is a way hope. By

1146
01:04:24.559 --> 01:04:26.559
<v Speaker 2>the way, we have a peak season for two months,

1147
01:04:26.599 --> 01:04:28.920
<v Speaker 2>so we scale up for the next instant and scale

1148
01:04:28.960 --> 01:04:32.440
<v Speaker 2>down again or increase the distance. So slow moving scalability

1149
01:04:32.559 --> 01:04:35.320
<v Speaker 2>can do. But those even during the days are very

1150
01:04:35.360 --> 01:04:38.840
<v Speaker 2>hard to do and if it's more spiky, almost impossible

1151
01:04:38.880 --> 01:04:44.599
<v Speaker 2>to do. But you're paying for your for your risk.

1152
01:04:44.679 --> 01:04:46.960
<v Speaker 2>And got feeling a little bit almost like I mean,

1153
01:04:47.000 --> 01:04:49.480
<v Speaker 2>obviously hopefully you look at data, look at some requests

1154
01:04:49.480 --> 01:04:52.159
<v Speaker 2>died some low testing and everything, but like, yeah, there

1155
01:04:52.239 --> 01:04:54.400
<v Speaker 2>might be this one customer coming along and put some

1156
01:04:54.519 --> 01:04:56.360
<v Speaker 2>load on it. It's like I want to be prepared

1157
01:04:56.360 --> 01:04:59.519
<v Speaker 2>for that, right, and you need to be prepared as

1158
01:04:59.519 --> 01:05:01.960
<v Speaker 2>a business for that, and you need to be over

1159
01:05:02.079 --> 01:05:08.039
<v Speaker 2>provisioned versus the more you go to basically really pay

1160
01:05:08.119 --> 01:05:13.000
<v Speaker 2>per use. If there's nobody coming, it's zero cost. If

1161
01:05:13.039 --> 01:05:15.960
<v Speaker 2>someone is coming, when you pay what you use. This

1162
01:05:16.119 --> 01:05:18.599
<v Speaker 2>again has at some point it has a limit, and

1163
01:05:18.719 --> 01:05:22.840
<v Speaker 2>it might be do my own thing is cheaper, right,

1164
01:05:22.960 --> 01:05:27.199
<v Speaker 2>So at some point, you know, running certain things on

1165
01:05:27.280 --> 01:05:30.440
<v Speaker 2>a huge scale is a central team that's expertise there

1166
01:05:30.719 --> 01:05:35.039
<v Speaker 2>might be the better thing for some companies or running

1167
01:05:35.079 --> 01:05:36.960
<v Speaker 2>again back to bear Metal, I mean there's just a

1168
01:05:37.000 --> 01:05:38.440
<v Speaker 2>little bit of a hype of all we run this

1169
01:05:38.519 --> 01:05:41.320
<v Speaker 2>thing on bear Metal. There are those workloads, but they

1170
01:05:41.400 --> 01:05:43.800
<v Speaker 2>typically don't come from a startup. They don't come from

1171
01:05:44.159 --> 01:05:47.079
<v Speaker 2>you know, smallish two pizza sized teams running their own thing,

1172
01:05:47.559 --> 01:05:50.320
<v Speaker 2>even if they have a lot of requests. Those recreess

1173
01:05:50.400 --> 01:05:55.960
<v Speaker 2>are typically you know, request then do some processing, call

1174
01:05:56.000 --> 01:06:00.280
<v Speaker 2>of database, return the thing. And and like I think

1175
01:06:00.440 --> 01:06:03.199
<v Speaker 2>cost per compute is a nice proxy to say, do

1176
01:06:03.320 --> 01:06:06.679
<v Speaker 2>I have a spot where my top five or top

1177
01:06:06.760 --> 01:06:11.199
<v Speaker 2>three things? And that's just looking at the pure costs,

1178
01:06:11.280 --> 01:06:13.159
<v Speaker 2>right there comes to operational costs and other things that

1179
01:06:13.239 --> 01:06:15.519
<v Speaker 2>you need to encounter. But at least this is hard data.

1180
01:06:15.559 --> 01:06:18.639
<v Speaker 2>What you can look at and trying to optimize for

1181
01:06:18.760 --> 01:06:21.079
<v Speaker 2>that and some point I'm good, Now I feel like

1182
01:06:21.920 --> 01:06:24.679
<v Speaker 2>the costs spent these lum and I think, you know

1183
01:06:24.719 --> 01:06:26.920
<v Speaker 2>a lot of companies might not have done that or

1184
01:06:27.000 --> 01:06:29.840
<v Speaker 2>might not have incentivized the team, and so oh my

1185
01:06:29.960 --> 01:06:34.280
<v Speaker 2>cloud costs are so expensive. But then you know, really

1186
01:06:34.400 --> 01:06:37.920
<v Speaker 2>running that very same workload, it's the very same properties.

1187
01:06:38.280 --> 01:06:41.400
<v Speaker 2>People can just spin up things and other things. You

1188
01:06:41.559 --> 01:06:45.679
<v Speaker 2>paint that on the rack. Now, I mean community serves

1189
01:06:45.719 --> 01:06:48.000
<v Speaker 2>need to have in there to actually have for those spikes,

1190
01:06:48.000 --> 01:06:50.760
<v Speaker 2>because like scaling up and down doesn't make sense anymore.

1191
01:06:51.519 --> 01:06:54.079
<v Speaker 2>Just like put it on full load and that's what

1192
01:06:54.239 --> 01:06:56.159
<v Speaker 2>you're what you're you're having in there.

1193
01:06:57.199 --> 01:06:59.440
<v Speaker 5>I think there's some inspiration from the web three space

1194
01:06:59.639 --> 01:07:03.000
<v Speaker 5>that sort of coin the term gas fee, right, the

1195
01:07:03.239 --> 01:07:07.639
<v Speaker 5>the actual cost of that execution compute to the line

1196
01:07:07.800 --> 01:07:11.599
<v Speaker 5>of execution for per instruction. I don't I don't know

1197
01:07:11.679 --> 01:07:13.440
<v Speaker 5>what that means, but I mean, I think there is

1198
01:07:13.480 --> 01:07:15.840
<v Speaker 5>an interesting aspect here where when we deal with the

1199
01:07:15.920 --> 01:07:20.000
<v Speaker 5>physical goods and we have a capital expenditure, you buy

1200
01:07:20.079 --> 01:07:22.800
<v Speaker 5>a thing and then you depreciate the value over time

1201
01:07:22.880 --> 01:07:25.400
<v Speaker 5>because the metal rusts or the components get out of

1202
01:07:25.480 --> 01:07:28.639
<v Speaker 5>date or you know, whatever it is about those, however

1203
01:07:28.679 --> 01:07:30.320
<v Speaker 5>it's manufactured or being consumed.

1204
01:07:31.280 --> 01:07:34.960
<v Speaker 4>We sort of lost that as we switch to from

1205
01:07:35.119 --> 01:07:36.199
<v Speaker 4>capital or cap.

1206
01:07:36.280 --> 01:07:39.599
<v Speaker 5>X expenditures to operational expenditures, which I think we're rewarded

1207
01:07:39.639 --> 01:07:42.760
<v Speaker 5>for having. Hey, you know, don't upfront by this, because

1208
01:07:42.800 --> 01:07:44.719
<v Speaker 5>there's you know, it's going to depreciate over time. You know,

1209
01:07:44.840 --> 01:07:46.880
<v Speaker 5>take a car for instance, you buy a car, it

1210
01:07:47.000 --> 01:07:49.280
<v Speaker 5>gets worse over time, It's worth nothing after you drive

1211
01:07:49.320 --> 01:07:51.079
<v Speaker 5>it off for the lot, and then you drive for

1212
01:07:51.119 --> 01:07:53.760
<v Speaker 5>another ten years and then it rusts and it's gone right.

1213
01:07:54.000 --> 01:07:56.039
<v Speaker 5>Whereas you know, if you're renting the car, you always

1214
01:07:56.039 --> 01:07:58.519
<v Speaker 5>get the newest, latest version, and if you never drive anywhere,

1215
01:07:58.800 --> 01:08:02.000
<v Speaker 5>then it's you don't pay anything, you know, conceivably. But

1216
01:08:02.039 --> 01:08:03.800
<v Speaker 5>I feel like there is a middle ground here where

1217
01:08:03.800 --> 01:08:06.039
<v Speaker 5>a lot of companies end up in and they forget that,

1218
01:08:06.239 --> 01:08:08.199
<v Speaker 5>even things like easy Too or Kubernetes.

1219
01:08:08.239 --> 01:08:10.679
<v Speaker 4>There there is a capital expenditure.

1220
01:08:10.960 --> 01:08:14.159
<v Speaker 5>It's just not on the bar metal, it's not on

1221
01:08:14.480 --> 01:08:17.399
<v Speaker 5>the virtual machine potentially, it's it's this other aspect. You know,

1222
01:08:17.479 --> 01:08:20.560
<v Speaker 5>it's slightly higher. It's not all all backs or all

1223
01:08:20.640 --> 01:08:23.319
<v Speaker 5>cap backs, but somewhere in between and because we've gotten

1224
01:08:23.319 --> 01:08:25.720
<v Speaker 5>away from that. I feel like we've lost people paying

1225
01:08:25.760 --> 01:08:30.800
<v Speaker 5>attention to how much we're actually expending on the part

1226
01:08:30.880 --> 01:08:34.600
<v Speaker 5>that's not fully operational, that that's fully Like you said,

1227
01:08:34.640 --> 01:08:36.880
<v Speaker 5>the total cost of ownership is one aspect to pull

1228
01:08:36.960 --> 01:08:38.399
<v Speaker 5>on here. And I mean, I don't know if there's

1229
01:08:38.399 --> 01:08:41.960
<v Speaker 5>a question here, just sort of an interesting tangent.

1230
01:08:42.079 --> 01:08:43.479
<v Speaker 4>I guess no.

1231
01:08:43.800 --> 01:08:46.399
<v Speaker 2>I think you know, just paying one thousand dollars every

1232
01:08:46.479 --> 01:08:51.079
<v Speaker 2>month is yeah, relatively easy to understand and beta, wait,

1233
01:08:51.159 --> 01:08:54.319
<v Speaker 2>this is what my business costs versus every three years

1234
01:08:54.479 --> 01:08:56.800
<v Speaker 2>paying thirty thousand, fifty thousands, Like, wait a bit, I'm

1235
01:08:56.840 --> 01:09:00.159
<v Speaker 2>not spending that money, right, there's projects undying on just

1236
01:09:00.239 --> 01:09:02.600
<v Speaker 2>like trying to do that, right, that's just like the

1237
01:09:02.680 --> 01:09:04.359
<v Speaker 2>small numbers now, but now, and I think you of

1238
01:09:04.520 --> 01:09:06.960
<v Speaker 2>not using one thousand but using a million, right, A

1239
01:09:07.079 --> 01:09:09.359
<v Speaker 2>million a month is one thing to pay, but then

1240
01:09:10.439 --> 01:09:15.119
<v Speaker 2>have this fifty million dollar built every three four years

1241
01:09:15.960 --> 01:09:19.439
<v Speaker 2>is a different type of discussion. And and I think

1242
01:09:19.600 --> 01:09:22.800
<v Speaker 2>this is as you're optimizing the cost, you're not bringing

1243
01:09:22.880 --> 01:09:25.560
<v Speaker 2>the cost down by ten dollars, one hundred dollars, one

1244
01:09:25.560 --> 01:09:28.239
<v Speaker 2>thousand dollars, ten thousand dollars, whatever your workload might be

1245
01:09:28.960 --> 01:09:33.000
<v Speaker 2>you're bringing that down multiplied by I just multiply the

1246
01:09:33.119 --> 01:09:35.319
<v Speaker 2>to a year, right and look at the yearly cost, right,

1247
01:09:35.359 --> 01:09:37.439
<v Speaker 2>because at some point, you know, things change so much

1248
01:09:37.520 --> 01:09:39.880
<v Speaker 2>that it's very hard to for long over the long term.

1249
01:09:42.560 --> 01:09:46.119
<v Speaker 2>I think it's probably basic finance here, but also it's

1250
01:09:46.159 --> 01:09:50.600
<v Speaker 2>important that numbers team members understand, like, no, you're not

1251
01:09:50.720 --> 01:09:54.760
<v Speaker 2>bringing down this workload. You know, fixing a bug for

1252
01:09:54.920 --> 01:09:57.159
<v Speaker 2>one user. No, you're fixing a bug for one user

1253
01:09:57.279 --> 01:09:59.359
<v Speaker 2>day which is tween a sixty five users a year,

1254
01:09:59.800 --> 01:10:02.439
<v Speaker 2>or you buy I don't know whatever it is, and

1255
01:10:02.600 --> 01:10:05.079
<v Speaker 2>it's like, no, this is This is a little bit

1256
01:10:05.119 --> 01:10:08.439
<v Speaker 2>where capital investment in terms of software engineering comes in.

1257
01:10:09.039 --> 01:10:10.800
<v Speaker 2>And you know, some of that is on a product side,

1258
01:10:10.840 --> 01:10:12.760
<v Speaker 2>but I would argue some of that is on engineering

1259
01:10:12.840 --> 01:10:15.399
<v Speaker 2>side of saying if we fix these three things, that's

1260
01:10:15.439 --> 01:10:18.920
<v Speaker 2>the impact you have to the customers, to the business,

1261
01:10:19.079 --> 01:10:24.680
<v Speaker 2>to the cost to whatever. And that's you know, if

1262
01:10:24.720 --> 01:10:28.840
<v Speaker 2>you invest an hour, now like you can basically count

1263
01:10:29.159 --> 01:10:31.199
<v Speaker 2>how many days or how many weeks it takes until

1264
01:10:31.239 --> 01:10:33.359
<v Speaker 2>the return of investment is There are very simple things

1265
01:10:33.399 --> 01:10:36.000
<v Speaker 2>and there's very more complicated models. But like get the

1266
01:10:36.039 --> 01:10:40.720
<v Speaker 2>back of the Napkain calculation into everyone's head, like just like, yeah,

1267
01:10:40.800 --> 01:10:42.840
<v Speaker 2>make those decisions based on that. And if you're really

1268
01:10:42.880 --> 01:10:47.159
<v Speaker 2>good at this type of investing your time where there

1269
01:10:47.359 --> 01:10:50.439
<v Speaker 2>is a return, and preferably return is on better customer

1270
01:10:50.479 --> 01:10:53.840
<v Speaker 2>service and better customer value because that really feels your business, right,

1271
01:10:53.920 --> 01:10:57.479
<v Speaker 2>So like old engineering excellence aside, but where you can

1272
01:10:57.640 --> 01:11:02.119
<v Speaker 2>invest and you know, prove improved things from an engineering side.

1273
01:11:02.319 --> 01:11:05.520
<v Speaker 2>And it has also either direct so sometimes it's indirection.

1274
01:11:05.800 --> 01:11:07.760
<v Speaker 2>How do you measure downtime? Right? If the team was

1275
01:11:08.039 --> 01:11:10.800
<v Speaker 2>down once and once a month is pretty bad, right, Uh,

1276
01:11:11.239 --> 01:11:14.000
<v Speaker 2>all of a sudden it's not down anymore. It's probably

1277
01:11:14.039 --> 01:11:16.520
<v Speaker 2>a good thing that happened. I don't know X months

1278
01:11:16.560 --> 01:11:19.800
<v Speaker 2>in the past, but it probably didn't happen or the

1279
01:11:20.000 --> 01:11:23.760
<v Speaker 2>work change incidentally, right, it probably happened because someone's yeah,

1280
01:11:23.840 --> 01:11:24.800
<v Speaker 2>right the thing.

1281
01:11:26.720 --> 01:11:27.079
<v Speaker 3>Mm hmm.

1282
01:11:27.680 --> 01:11:30.039
<v Speaker 5>I mean, I you come for the engineering excellence and

1283
01:11:30.159 --> 01:11:33.760
<v Speaker 5>get the uh you know x maybe startup entrepreneur here

1284
01:11:33.880 --> 01:11:36.479
<v Speaker 5>giving you financial advice on how to run your cloud.

1285
01:11:36.680 --> 01:11:38.640
<v Speaker 4>I mean, I I love the topic. I feel I

1286
01:11:38.760 --> 01:11:42.880
<v Speaker 4>fear it's a it's another whole hour, uh which you're

1287
01:11:42.880 --> 01:11:47.680
<v Speaker 4>going off which no, I mean it's super interesting. I

1288
01:11:47.760 --> 01:11:49.840
<v Speaker 4>mean I I I really love the idea.

1289
01:11:49.880 --> 01:11:52.000
<v Speaker 5>I actually, you know, I'm hoping maybe we can find

1290
01:11:52.039 --> 01:11:55.199
<v Speaker 5>someone to come on to actually uh discuss that in detail,

1291
01:11:55.279 --> 01:11:57.880
<v Speaker 5>because I think there's, as you pointed out, really interesting

1292
01:11:58.000 --> 01:12:02.560
<v Speaker 5>overlap with uh, the complexity of managing cloud resources or

1293
01:12:03.840 --> 01:12:05.119
<v Speaker 5>I'm sorry, if you're on prem.

1294
01:12:09.520 --> 01:12:11.720
<v Speaker 1>If they're on prem, they'd never heard the podcast because

1295
01:12:11.720 --> 01:12:14.720
<v Speaker 1>they're crawling underneath the floor running network cables or something.

1296
01:12:17.880 --> 01:12:20.680
<v Speaker 1>Actually I am curious about that's if that's still a thing,

1297
01:12:20.880 --> 01:12:23.520
<v Speaker 1>like if you are running on prem, are you still

1298
01:12:24.199 --> 01:12:26.159
<v Speaker 1>for people who are running on prem or they still

1299
01:12:26.880 --> 01:12:29.039
<v Speaker 1>jumping in the car driving out to the data center

1300
01:12:29.960 --> 01:12:32.239
<v Speaker 1>swapping hard drives, racking servers.

1301
01:12:33.600 --> 01:12:35.319
<v Speaker 4>I mean, I can imagine it's a separate job.

1302
01:12:36.000 --> 01:12:38.560
<v Speaker 5>And there are the third party bare metal providers out

1303
01:12:38.600 --> 01:12:40.760
<v Speaker 5>there that are trying to sell that. So I think

1304
01:12:40.920 --> 01:12:44.479
<v Speaker 5>something that the even larger cloud providers offer or how

1305
01:12:44.520 --> 01:12:48.199
<v Speaker 5>they work is they end up renting like locked in

1306
01:12:48.479 --> 01:12:50.520
<v Speaker 5>space inside physical buildings that.

1307
01:12:50.600 --> 01:12:52.720
<v Speaker 4>Are called cages that you can't get in.

1308
01:12:52.920 --> 01:12:56.000
<v Speaker 5>So who's doing that activity though, I'm that is a

1309
01:12:56.039 --> 01:12:57.880
<v Speaker 5>good question, right, I mean, because you don't want the

1310
01:12:58.199 --> 01:13:02.000
<v Speaker 5>data center owner to be accessing your physical machines and

1311
01:13:02.039 --> 01:13:04.760
<v Speaker 5>you know, pulling out the HSM that you've got installed there,

1312
01:13:04.920 --> 01:13:08.720
<v Speaker 5>like that's that's a security vulnerability. So you've got to

1313
01:13:08.760 --> 01:13:11.880
<v Speaker 5>have your own operation engineers that you're employing to perform

1314
01:13:11.960 --> 01:13:14.000
<v Speaker 5>that activity. Otherwise, you know, you might as well be

1315
01:13:14.159 --> 01:13:17.279
<v Speaker 5>using a public cloud. But you know, if someone knows,

1316
01:13:17.359 --> 01:13:20.399
<v Speaker 5>I think they should ping us on discord and actually,

1317
01:13:20.680 --> 01:13:22.680
<v Speaker 5>you know, give us a topic of conversation here. I

1318
01:13:22.720 --> 01:13:26.000
<v Speaker 5>think that'd be super interesting to have someone with an

1319
01:13:26.039 --> 01:13:29.600
<v Speaker 5>expertise in on premise data center management.

1320
01:13:30.119 --> 01:13:32.600
<v Speaker 3>Oh absolutely, I'm one hundred percent on that one.

1321
01:13:34.640 --> 01:13:37.319
<v Speaker 2>I think that woo especially interesting for those that are

1322
01:13:37.840 --> 01:13:41.960
<v Speaker 2>you know, medium company size, not those very big players.

1323
01:13:42.000 --> 01:13:44.680
<v Speaker 2>They might have other economics and other reasons to do.

1324
01:13:44.760 --> 01:13:45.399
<v Speaker 4>That, yeah for sure.

1325
01:13:45.840 --> 01:13:48.159
<v Speaker 2>Also not those who have to do it for compliant reasons,

1326
01:13:48.199 --> 01:13:50.720
<v Speaker 2>because they're because it's the thing and that's the reason

1327
01:13:50.720 --> 01:13:53.800
<v Speaker 2>why we do it. But really, like you know, those

1328
01:13:53.880 --> 01:13:56.439
<v Speaker 2>have a decent engineering team, but those are not super

1329
01:13:56.560 --> 01:13:58.359
<v Speaker 2>so so I think a lot of people could actually

1330
01:13:58.439 --> 01:14:01.640
<v Speaker 2>relate and so, so, yes, would be a fantastic topic.

1331
01:14:04.119 --> 01:14:07.439
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I would like to have somebody from well, yeah,

1332
01:14:07.439 --> 01:14:11.800
<v Speaker 1>because there's the email provider hey dot com that was

1333
01:14:12.239 --> 01:14:15.319
<v Speaker 1>started by I don't remember what his full name is.

1334
01:14:15.399 --> 01:14:18.000
<v Speaker 1>He goes by the initials Dha. She's like the founder

1335
01:14:18.039 --> 01:14:22.239
<v Speaker 1>of Rubion Rails or something. But they have left the

1336
01:14:22.359 --> 01:14:26.840
<v Speaker 1>cloud completely operate all their own physical hardware and then

1337
01:14:27.000 --> 01:14:31.680
<v Speaker 1>just recently announced that they're ditching Kubernetes for their own

1338
01:14:31.880 --> 01:14:36.760
<v Speaker 1>orchestration platform that they have created, and like they're just

1339
01:14:36.960 --> 01:14:42.199
<v Speaker 1>like completely going off and inventing their own stuff. And

1340
01:14:42.479 --> 01:14:45.199
<v Speaker 1>I think that would be a really cool conversation to

1341
01:14:45.520 --> 01:14:48.279
<v Speaker 1>have and say, just you know, how's that working out

1342
01:14:48.319 --> 01:14:48.520
<v Speaker 1>for you?

1343
01:14:50.720 --> 01:14:58.119
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? I think I think what's interesting is is you

1344
01:14:58.199 --> 01:15:00.520
<v Speaker 2>know where there's the value of kuman it is or

1345
01:15:00.680 --> 01:15:03.239
<v Speaker 2>these type of things, right, these big frameworks in these

1346
01:15:03.319 --> 01:15:07.479
<v Speaker 2>solve I mean kum that came out of this Google project, right,

1347
01:15:07.800 --> 01:15:10.279
<v Speaker 2>and they run a few more service than I do, right,

1348
01:15:15.119 --> 01:15:21.479
<v Speaker 2>and and and I think it goes down a little

1349
01:15:21.479 --> 01:15:25.600
<v Speaker 2>bit too often many companies do either Hey, they have

1350
01:15:25.800 --> 01:15:28.600
<v Speaker 2>just like say, some CP needs, or they have classical

1351
01:15:29.000 --> 01:15:32.479
<v Speaker 2>that break cress type of needs to the database, or

1352
01:15:32.560 --> 01:15:36.000
<v Speaker 2>they have some aazing processing kind of these servilized pipeline

1353
01:15:36.039 --> 01:15:38.960
<v Speaker 2>type of needs. I feel like if they were running

1354
01:15:39.439 --> 01:15:42.000
<v Speaker 2>and I'm guessing here is krumen it is really in

1355
01:15:42.079 --> 01:15:44.159
<v Speaker 2>the cloud in terms of how potential is a cloud

1356
01:15:44.199 --> 01:15:47.199
<v Speaker 2>provide to sell it and the potentially the options that

1357
01:15:47.279 --> 01:15:48.960
<v Speaker 2>were there. I think that happened a three years ago

1358
01:15:49.039 --> 01:15:54.680
<v Speaker 2>when they announced it. It's different than oh, like you

1359
01:15:54.800 --> 01:15:57.199
<v Speaker 2>go all in on the cloud and figure out how

1360
01:15:57.319 --> 01:16:01.199
<v Speaker 2>can you you know, costper compute, how like cost per

1361
01:16:01.239 --> 01:16:03.840
<v Speaker 2>compute we're not good for them? How can you squeeze

1362
01:16:03.880 --> 01:16:05.920
<v Speaker 2>it out? I think there might have been a cloud

1363
01:16:05.960 --> 01:16:09.119
<v Speaker 2>way to do it. And those are you know, top

1364
01:16:09.239 --> 01:16:11.439
<v Speaker 2>notche engineers. I'm pretty sure they looked at a bunch

1365
01:16:11.479 --> 01:16:14.319
<v Speaker 2>of things. But this is also one of the arguments

1366
01:16:14.399 --> 01:16:17.319
<v Speaker 2>like why you know, I was you know, looking at

1367
01:16:17.399 --> 01:16:21.079
<v Speaker 2>I don't want the krumanides upgrade a year, but if

1368
01:16:21.079 --> 01:16:23.520
<v Speaker 2>it's there, it's not the worst thing, right, But there

1369
01:16:23.600 --> 01:16:26.199
<v Speaker 2>are other things like kumunides. You know a lot of

1370
01:16:26.239 --> 01:16:28.520
<v Speaker 2>people put the stamp on a LinkedIn profile because they

1371
01:16:28.600 --> 01:16:31.600
<v Speaker 2>want to have the stamp. It's the wrong incentive, right,

1372
01:16:31.720 --> 01:16:35.279
<v Speaker 2>and it's but it's also a huge complexity to learn.

1373
01:16:35.319 --> 01:16:39.359
<v Speaker 2>I mean, learning cumanities is equally challenging us learning ITWS

1374
01:16:39.399 --> 01:16:42.319
<v Speaker 2>and learning Google Cloud or whatever it is. Right, It's

1375
01:16:42.359 --> 01:16:45.319
<v Speaker 2>a huge thing and really really mastering that and then

1376
01:16:45.399 --> 01:16:48.479
<v Speaker 2>scaling it to your needs and getting the right cost

1377
01:16:48.520 --> 01:16:53.359
<v Speaker 2>performance security profile. That's another undertaking versus most teams might

1378
01:16:53.439 --> 01:16:55.920
<v Speaker 2>actually just like, yeah, we have the kubanities in the

1379
01:16:56.000 --> 01:16:59.920
<v Speaker 2>cloud and fully managed and these are the seven settings

1380
01:17:00.119 --> 01:17:03.359
<v Speaker 2>we're looking at. And if you're doing that, it's probably

1381
01:17:03.479 --> 01:17:07.000
<v Speaker 2>like something like you know, a more cloud native saying

1382
01:17:07.119 --> 01:17:09.680
<v Speaker 2>that it is more or higher higher managed service like

1383
01:17:09.840 --> 01:17:14.720
<v Speaker 2>NAS has easy as it's just a cluster, has a name.

1384
01:17:15.159 --> 01:17:17.840
<v Speaker 2>That's all you can configure, and then you'll say, oh,

1385
01:17:18.000 --> 01:17:21.600
<v Speaker 2>here's this service, here's the doctor instance, and that's giving

1386
01:17:21.600 --> 01:17:23.840
<v Speaker 2>me so much CPU and memory and then hopefully that

1387
01:17:23.960 --> 01:17:28.319
<v Speaker 2>matches the wallet you have and the workload you're thrown against.

1388
01:17:28.319 --> 01:17:30.359
<v Speaker 2>It has the lot of right balance, but it managed

1389
01:17:30.399 --> 01:17:33.600
<v Speaker 2>this deal all the scaling for you, Like okay, you

1390
01:17:33.680 --> 01:17:36.079
<v Speaker 2>need to configure that right, but it's like it does

1391
01:17:36.239 --> 01:17:38.920
<v Speaker 2>all the magic and the nine thing about it. In

1392
01:17:39.119 --> 01:17:42.239
<v Speaker 2>five years, if you never touch the code, okay, your

1393
01:17:42.279 --> 01:17:45.880
<v Speaker 2>own code might run into security volunabarities, but the underlying

1394
01:17:45.960 --> 01:17:50.479
<v Speaker 2>hardware has changed seven times, runs faster by then, has

1395
01:17:50.680 --> 01:17:54.199
<v Speaker 2>been gone through innovation cycles by the cloud provider, and

1396
01:17:55.079 --> 01:17:58.520
<v Speaker 2>while doing nothing, so your code gets more secure and

1397
01:17:58.760 --> 01:18:01.560
<v Speaker 2>faster while doing nothing. This is a really really beautiful

1398
01:18:02.119 --> 01:18:05.960
<v Speaker 2>thing to have then using managed services, and I think

1399
01:18:06.039 --> 01:18:10.359
<v Speaker 2>that's something that's undervalued. And often like you know this

1400
01:18:10.680 --> 01:18:12.560
<v Speaker 2>on ITA, that's not sure how much we can go

1401
01:18:12.800 --> 01:18:15.319
<v Speaker 2>deep there versus out like there is you back it

1402
01:18:15.359 --> 01:18:17.239
<v Speaker 2>by your own virtual machine and you're only easy to

1403
01:18:17.359 --> 01:18:20.760
<v Speaker 2>instance versus by fargate, which is basically easy to fleet

1404
01:18:20.920 --> 01:18:25.199
<v Speaker 2>managed by WS so you don't see them is looking

1405
01:18:25.239 --> 01:18:27.479
<v Speaker 2>at a one to one comparison. Obviously back by easy

1406
01:18:27.520 --> 01:18:30.199
<v Speaker 2>two is cheaper because you manage it, you have the responsibility.

1407
01:18:30.239 --> 01:18:33.600
<v Speaker 2>But they also know there's so much free capacity there

1408
01:18:33.640 --> 01:18:35.720
<v Speaker 2>what they can basically what they are charging you because

1409
01:18:35.720 --> 01:18:39.760
<v Speaker 2>you have to manage the capacity versus you're really only

1410
01:18:39.840 --> 01:18:43.920
<v Speaker 2>paying what you're needing. So again it's yet one level higher.

1411
01:18:44.600 --> 01:18:47.199
<v Speaker 2>So depending on where you are on the managed services,

1412
01:18:47.279 --> 01:18:49.880
<v Speaker 2>go one level higher and you get a bunch of

1413
01:18:50.000 --> 01:18:56.760
<v Speaker 2>things for free on maintenance, security, upgrades, maintainability and like

1414
01:18:57.039 --> 01:19:00.359
<v Speaker 2>again strive there, like what's your next player? Then after that?

1415
01:19:00.520 --> 01:19:03.439
<v Speaker 2>What's your next player? After that? At some point I

1416
01:19:03.520 --> 01:19:05.439
<v Speaker 2>think there are two stopping points. Some point Okay, I

1417
01:19:05.600 --> 01:19:08.199
<v Speaker 2>don't understand this thing anymore because it's too abstract. There's

1418
01:19:08.279 --> 01:19:11.800
<v Speaker 2>services out there, drop this thing, and we kind of

1419
01:19:11.920 --> 01:19:14.079
<v Speaker 2>run it right, and you want to have a little

1420
01:19:14.079 --> 01:19:17.600
<v Speaker 2>bit more control depending on your needs. Great for startups,

1421
01:19:17.680 --> 01:19:21.439
<v Speaker 2>great for prototypes, great for the amoor wasn't great for

1422
01:19:21.520 --> 01:19:25.800
<v Speaker 2>certain workloads, but not lessening everything. So that's one stopping point.

1423
01:19:25.800 --> 01:19:28.399
<v Speaker 2>And I think the other stopping point is when you

1424
01:19:28.479 --> 01:19:31.600
<v Speaker 2>don't it's not a managed service, but the manage service

1425
01:19:31.680 --> 01:19:35.279
<v Speaker 2>manages you kind of think it is. At one point,

1426
01:19:35.560 --> 01:19:40.880
<v Speaker 2>at some workflow characteristics, they might become expensive. A very

1427
01:19:40.920 --> 01:19:44.279
<v Speaker 2>classical one is the NAT Gateway. Just put it up.

1428
01:19:44.359 --> 01:19:47.600
<v Speaker 2>It's very cheap, but once you actually hits traffic at

1429
01:19:47.640 --> 01:19:53.359
<v Speaker 2>some point you think, should have run my own, right,

1430
01:19:53.680 --> 01:19:57.520
<v Speaker 2>And those are things that I you know, I'm there

1431
01:19:57.800 --> 01:20:01.319
<v Speaker 2>going back to the Hay conversation, is my yeah, should

1432
01:20:01.319 --> 01:20:03.640
<v Speaker 2>I run not their mental arcy, but should I run

1433
01:20:03.720 --> 01:20:07.199
<v Speaker 2>my own here? And it's a slippery slope, right, I

1434
01:20:07.279 --> 01:20:11.479
<v Speaker 2>mean it's from a cost performance cost professor, absolutely, it's

1435
01:20:11.479 --> 01:20:13.439
<v Speaker 2>probably also not that hard to run it. But then

1436
01:20:13.479 --> 01:20:16.319
<v Speaker 2>comes the whole security maintenance, and nobody will have a

1437
01:20:16.399 --> 01:20:18.319
<v Speaker 2>clue of how this works because there you need to

1438
01:20:18.359 --> 01:20:21.119
<v Speaker 2>go deeper into networking and to routing tables and all

1439
01:20:21.119 --> 01:20:23.119
<v Speaker 2>the other things. What you need to understand. I don't

1440
01:20:23.159 --> 01:20:26.840
<v Speaker 2>necessarily want to spend that time there, but I fully

1441
01:20:26.920 --> 01:20:31.720
<v Speaker 2>understand companies that don't run this nap game because it's

1442
01:20:31.840 --> 01:20:33.960
<v Speaker 2>just like hitting a limit where they want to spend

1443
01:20:34.000 --> 01:20:37.159
<v Speaker 2>the money. Yeah. So it's just one example, right, So,

1444
01:20:37.399 --> 01:20:39.880
<v Speaker 2>so I think even managed services they are not this

1445
01:20:40.079 --> 01:20:43.319
<v Speaker 2>is the way to go. There is orders, what you

1446
01:20:43.399 --> 01:20:45.439
<v Speaker 2>need to set and hate by they here's here's where

1447
01:20:45.479 --> 01:20:48.239
<v Speaker 2>we stop or here. Excellence actually means not doing the

1448
01:20:48.439 --> 01:20:49.399
<v Speaker 2>thing that sound.

1449
01:20:49.520 --> 01:20:51.920
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, no, I think that's a good a good Uh,

1450
01:20:52.159 --> 01:20:55.000
<v Speaker 5>you know, circle back around to the beginning of the

1451
01:20:55.039 --> 01:20:57.920
<v Speaker 5>conversation really, like, you know, figuring out what decisions you

1452
01:20:58.000 --> 01:21:00.439
<v Speaker 5>want to make, uh, and even what the is to

1453
01:21:00.479 --> 01:21:01.640
<v Speaker 5>make those decisions is.

1454
01:21:02.600 --> 01:21:05.560
<v Speaker 4>What we're calling excellent, our engineering excellence.

1455
01:21:06.039 --> 01:21:07.399
<v Speaker 3>I fear that.

1456
01:21:09.039 --> 01:21:11.079
<v Speaker 5>We may be taking up too much of your time,

1457
01:21:11.439 --> 01:21:14.079
<v Speaker 5>and I have this thought that maybe we should move

1458
01:21:14.119 --> 01:21:15.159
<v Speaker 5>on to picks.

1459
01:21:15.319 --> 01:21:18.640
<v Speaker 4>If there is no one last thing that you wanted

1460
01:21:18.680 --> 01:21:19.279
<v Speaker 4>to share.

1461
01:21:20.279 --> 01:21:22.560
<v Speaker 2>Oh, I feel like I've talked so much. Thanks for

1462
01:21:22.720 --> 01:21:26.479
<v Speaker 2>having me, so just go on. Yeah.

1463
01:21:26.520 --> 01:21:28.239
<v Speaker 1>I do want to chime in with one last thing

1464
01:21:28.279 --> 01:21:32.920
<v Speaker 1>and say that I think that net Gateways is an

1465
01:21:33.159 --> 01:21:37.359
<v Speaker 1>individual line item on Amazon profit and lost balance sheet.

1466
01:21:41.840 --> 01:21:45.640
<v Speaker 2>It is it is right, it's not storage. Storage is

1467
01:21:45.840 --> 01:21:46.319
<v Speaker 2>not a one.

1468
01:21:48.880 --> 01:21:55.239
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Like, we sold five hundred million coffeemakers last year

1469
01:21:55.960 --> 01:21:59.319
<v Speaker 1>and it almost made us as much money as net gateways.

1470
01:22:03.039 --> 01:22:05.159
<v Speaker 2>Something like that. Oh my god, you could go into

1471
01:22:05.239 --> 01:22:07.439
<v Speaker 2>that direction. But let's let's.

1472
01:22:09.159 --> 01:22:14.479
<v Speaker 3>Right cool, let's do picks. Warren to bring a pick

1473
01:22:14.560 --> 01:22:14.880
<v Speaker 3>this week.

1474
01:22:15.319 --> 01:22:15.720
<v Speaker 2>I did.

1475
01:22:15.880 --> 01:22:18.319
<v Speaker 5>I know, usually it's a book, but I just bought

1476
01:22:18.359 --> 01:22:22.600
<v Speaker 5>this thing. It's a Legion from Lenovo. It's a tablet.

1477
01:22:22.760 --> 01:22:26.640
<v Speaker 5>I loved my Google Nexus for forever. I think I

1478
01:22:26.680 --> 01:22:29.439
<v Speaker 5>had it like ten years or so. Never let me

1479
01:22:29.520 --> 01:22:32.359
<v Speaker 5>down up until last year, where I just totally froze.

1480
01:22:33.000 --> 01:22:34.840
<v Speaker 5>For the most part, I blame the apps that I

1481
01:22:34.920 --> 01:22:36.239
<v Speaker 5>have to run, like they just take up more and

1482
01:22:36.319 --> 01:22:39.760
<v Speaker 5>more memory and upgrades from Google. But this thing a

1483
01:22:39.800 --> 01:22:43.640
<v Speaker 5>little pricey, but still, I mean it's it's been perfect.

1484
01:22:43.680 --> 01:22:46.640
<v Speaker 5>It's been absolutely fantastic. Everything I want in a tablet

1485
01:22:46.760 --> 01:22:48.039
<v Speaker 5>for going on vacation with.

1486
01:22:49.199 --> 01:22:51.079
<v Speaker 3>So what are the common things you do with your

1487
01:22:51.119 --> 01:22:53.439
<v Speaker 3>tablet that make this a great tablet?

1488
01:22:53.800 --> 01:22:53.920
<v Speaker 2>Oh?

1489
01:22:54.039 --> 01:22:57.079
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, I mean I'm not a gamer, but it's a

1490
01:22:57.159 --> 01:23:00.319
<v Speaker 5>gaming tablet, which means the battery life is incredibly great,

1491
01:23:01.039 --> 01:23:03.520
<v Speaker 5>and so I get on like fourteen hour flights when

1492
01:23:03.520 --> 01:23:06.119
<v Speaker 5>I'm going to conferences on the other side of the world,

1493
01:23:06.279 --> 01:23:09.119
<v Speaker 5>and so I needed to last that long. So content

1494
01:23:09.279 --> 01:23:12.800
<v Speaker 5>for uh, you know, watching movies, et cetera. I read

1495
01:23:12.800 --> 01:23:14.760
<v Speaker 5>a lot of books. So storage space it has a

1496
01:23:14.800 --> 01:23:17.800
<v Speaker 5>removable flash drive, making it really easy to transfer stuff

1497
01:23:17.800 --> 01:23:21.000
<v Speaker 5>from my desktop. You know, those are really my core ones.

1498
01:23:21.039 --> 01:23:22.239
<v Speaker 5>I mean, every once in a while I need a

1499
01:23:22.279 --> 01:23:25.680
<v Speaker 5>game to actually entertain me on a fourteen plus hour flight,

1500
01:23:25.920 --> 01:23:29.479
<v Speaker 5>which I don't recommend to anyone unless there's something really

1501
01:23:29.520 --> 01:23:31.479
<v Speaker 5>good in it for you. So that that's really my

1502
01:23:31.680 --> 01:23:34.199
<v Speaker 5>my core requirement there, which is why I've gone for

1503
01:23:34.279 --> 01:23:36.000
<v Speaker 5>this instead of something with like E yanch or some

1504
01:23:36.319 --> 01:23:37.319
<v Speaker 5>or on that approach.

1505
01:23:38.039 --> 01:23:41.600
<v Speaker 3>Right now, cool, all right, Marcus, would you bring for

1506
01:23:41.640 --> 01:23:41.960
<v Speaker 3>a pick?

1507
01:23:43.800 --> 01:23:46.560
<v Speaker 2>I thought of bringing that podcast, like a little bit

1508
01:23:46.600 --> 01:23:54.760
<v Speaker 2>of competition to you. I do a little bit of sports,

1509
01:23:54.800 --> 01:23:56.880
<v Speaker 2>and it's one of the way off of actually getting

1510
01:23:56.880 --> 01:24:01.039
<v Speaker 2>some information. But it's it's Farnham straight Shane Perrish, and

1511
01:24:01.199 --> 01:24:06.239
<v Speaker 2>he interviews just like top business leaders, top sports and

1512
01:24:06.359 --> 01:24:09.800
<v Speaker 2>coaches and other things. And I've gone through wellow one

1513
01:24:09.880 --> 01:24:12.960
<v Speaker 2>hundred series of I think he's at a one hundred

1514
01:24:13.000 --> 01:24:16.000
<v Speaker 2>and ninety podcast by now does it every week or

1515
01:24:16.039 --> 01:24:20.439
<v Speaker 2>every second week. I think every second week, and I'm

1516
01:24:20.479 --> 01:24:24.760
<v Speaker 2>following along almost everything, and I think it's it's just inspirational.

1517
01:24:24.880 --> 01:24:28.319
<v Speaker 2>What you know, talk about engineering excellence. It is what

1518
01:24:28.600 --> 01:24:32.880
<v Speaker 2>are other disciplines doing right? Sometimes it's someone in psychology

1519
01:24:34.239 --> 01:24:39.960
<v Speaker 2>some other science feels investing sports everything and like just

1520
01:24:40.079 --> 01:24:44.239
<v Speaker 2>gives you a different perspective learning from the best. What

1521
01:24:44.359 --> 01:24:47.119
<v Speaker 2>they have already figured out is what his tagline is.

1522
01:24:47.239 --> 01:24:49.199
<v Speaker 2>And I think I really really like that. And I

1523
01:24:49.840 --> 01:24:53.760
<v Speaker 2>can only recommend if you are short of time. I

1524
01:24:53.800 --> 01:24:56.640
<v Speaker 2>don't know how much I should go into recommend recommending

1525
01:24:56.800 --> 01:24:59.520
<v Speaker 2>other people here, but it's clear. Thinking is the book

1526
01:25:00.119 --> 01:25:04.039
<v Speaker 2>Shane Heart brought up half a year ago. It's summarizing

1527
01:25:04.079 --> 01:25:07.760
<v Speaker 2>about the whole community what he has built up over

1528
01:25:07.840 --> 01:25:12.840
<v Speaker 2>the years and the consistency definitely worth a read right on.

1529
01:25:13.199 --> 01:25:15.800
<v Speaker 3>Very cool cool.

1530
01:25:15.880 --> 01:25:19.960
<v Speaker 1>So my pick for the week is there's a song

1531
01:25:20.079 --> 01:25:24.680
<v Speaker 1>that's actually an older song now from a band called Metallica.

1532
01:25:24.840 --> 01:25:27.880
<v Speaker 1>The song is called one, And it feels so weird

1533
01:25:27.920 --> 01:25:31.000
<v Speaker 1>to say that that's an old song now because that

1534
01:25:31.279 --> 01:25:34.720
<v Speaker 1>just reminds me that I am old now. But there's

1535
01:25:35.239 --> 01:25:36.880
<v Speaker 1>you know, there's a lot of people who haven't heard it,

1536
01:25:36.920 --> 01:25:40.520
<v Speaker 1>And so there's a YouTube reaction video from.

1537
01:25:40.359 --> 01:25:42.720
<v Speaker 3>A YouTuber called the Vocalist. She's like a.

1538
01:25:42.800 --> 01:25:48.680
<v Speaker 1>Classically trained vocal instructor, and so she watches the music

1539
01:25:48.800 --> 01:25:52.840
<v Speaker 1>video for Metallica's song one and reacts to it. And

1540
01:25:52.960 --> 01:25:55.640
<v Speaker 1>it's cool because there's just a lot of layers into this.

1541
01:25:56.399 --> 01:26:00.960
<v Speaker 1>The song one itself is about a movie from nineteen

1542
01:26:01.079 --> 01:26:04.720
<v Speaker 1>seventy three called Johnny Got His Gun, about a soldier

1543
01:26:04.760 --> 01:26:07.439
<v Speaker 1>who's injured in World War One, and.

1544
01:26:09.319 --> 01:26:10.600
<v Speaker 3>So the song is about that.

1545
01:26:11.039 --> 01:26:15.279
<v Speaker 1>And then so there's clips from the movie in the

1546
01:26:15.359 --> 01:26:19.319
<v Speaker 1>music video. But then the orchestration of the song itself

1547
01:26:19.640 --> 01:26:22.960
<v Speaker 1>is just really well done. And then her reaction to

1548
01:26:23.079 --> 01:26:26.039
<v Speaker 1>that as she watches it and she's trying to comprehend

1549
01:26:26.640 --> 01:26:29.359
<v Speaker 1>the movie that the song is about, plus the orchestration

1550
01:26:30.119 --> 01:26:32.359
<v Speaker 1>and the instrumental work of the song, Like it's just

1551
01:26:32.520 --> 01:26:37.760
<v Speaker 1>all these layers in one short video. That's super cool,

1552
01:26:38.079 --> 01:26:41.159
<v Speaker 1>definitely worth checking out, whether you are a Metallica fan

1553
01:26:41.479 --> 01:26:45.640
<v Speaker 1>or not. It's just there's entertainment there for people of

1554
01:26:45.720 --> 01:26:49.720
<v Speaker 1>all types. So that is YouTuber The Vocalist and her

1555
01:26:49.840 --> 01:26:56.159
<v Speaker 1>reaction of Metallica song one, and that's all we have

1556
01:26:56.319 --> 01:26:57.079
<v Speaker 1>for the podcast.

1557
01:26:58.119 --> 01:27:00.720
<v Speaker 3>So for everyone listening to the podcasting, thank you for listening.

1558
01:27:01.199 --> 01:27:04.560
<v Speaker 1>For all the people watching the live streams on twitch,

1559
01:27:05.319 --> 01:27:08.880
<v Speaker 1>YouTube or whatever other streaming platforms we're on, thank you

1560
01:27:09.000 --> 01:27:13.000
<v Speaker 1>for watching. And Marcus, thanks for joining us. This has

1561
01:27:13.039 --> 01:27:14.119
<v Speaker 1>been a cool conversation.

1562
01:27:15.760 --> 01:27:17.520
<v Speaker 2>Thanks a lot for having me. Was an honor and

1563
01:27:18.920 --> 01:27:22.359
<v Speaker 2>was also a fun conversation. Definitely some challenging ideas and

1564
01:27:22.479 --> 01:27:24.279
<v Speaker 2>thoughts right on.

1565
01:27:25.000 --> 01:27:27.479
<v Speaker 1>Warren, as always, thanks for joining me and co hosting

1566
01:27:27.560 --> 01:27:27.880
<v Speaker 1>the show.

1567
01:27:30.319 --> 01:27:31.600
<v Speaker 3>We'll see everyone next week.