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Speaker 1: Yeah, they changed the goal life button.

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Speaker 2: It's just.

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Speaker 3: I know the UI designers feel like.

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Speaker 1: They're contributing, but sometimes, man, sometimes I question it.

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Speaker 4: Where we have some on the show.

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Speaker 1: If you're a UI designer and you swapped the order

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of the okay and cancel buttons, give me a call.

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You can talk.

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Speaker 3: Anyway, Warren. What's going on?

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Speaker 2: Man?

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Speaker 4: Well, you know, thanks for welcoming back.

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Speaker 5: I know the last couple of weeks I've been actually

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out of commission traveling in Berlin.

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Speaker 4: But I have an interesting.

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Speaker 5: Fact for today the Adventures of DeVos, and that's in

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the last three weeks there have been two different TOTP

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mobile app providers who have both.

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Speaker 4: Been popped in some way and significant vulnerability has been discovered.

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Speaker 5: One of them just straight out sold to a let's

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just third party. So it's a good reminder that passwords

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are always insecure and mobile apps don't make it any

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more secure.

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Speaker 4: It's really amazing.

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Speaker 1: Actually, I'm just going to say, a revenue stream is

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a revenue stream is a revenue.

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Speaker 3: Stream, right on? Yeah, I agree. I wish that more

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more providers supported.

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Speaker 1: Ub keys because I don't like those a lot, and

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I hate the ones that say hey, we'll text you

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a code. My great, that's not secure at all, but

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thanks for making it harder.

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Speaker 3: To use your app anyway.

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Speaker 1: Joining us today, Marcus Thurner, Marcus, how are you man?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks a lot for having me. Exciting to be

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in a podcast.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's going to be an excellent podcast as I

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understand it. And you are the director of technology at

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Vista right, yes.

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Speaker 2: One of them. I'm booking in order.

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Speaker 3: Management right on.

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Speaker 1: And then we're just going to completely bypass that and

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derail the show entirely because it says on your LinkedIn

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profile you are a professional chocolate taster.

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Speaker 3: Is that a real thing?

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Speaker 2: That was a real thing. It's not a thing anymore.

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It's just like, yeah, my wife had a startup for

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four years in that being to bar chocolate making business,

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and you gotta do what you gotta do as a

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husband and taste chocolate and enjoy their mind. It was

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a good time. But I think it's still good to

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keep some fun stuff on a LinkedIn profile instead of

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like it starts to be too serious O advice.

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Speaker 3: Right, Oh, I agree one hundred percent.

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Speaker 1: There was a time early on in LinkedIn days where

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you could just indorse anyone for anything, And so some

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of my friends endorsed me for professional gift expert or

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something like that, because about ninety percent of the time

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I'll reply with a gift or a meme instead of

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actual text. And so for long, the longest time, I

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was endorsed for that on LinkedIn, and then they decided

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to take that seriously and removed it. And now you

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can only get endorsed for authorized roles, but no professional Yeah, right,

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like professional chocolate taster.

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Speaker 3: I mean I like the fact that it was.

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Speaker 1: For your wife because your vowels were for better or

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for worse, and I mean that's just the job.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely absolutely.

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Speaker 5: I wonder if there's a connection though, like have you

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been able to find a way to take the lessons

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learned from startup chocolate making to back to the technology world.

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Speaker 4: Has there been any overlaps?

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Speaker 2: I think I think yes. I mean running a business

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is actually you learn a lot more than you're a

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single woman or you know, just a very tiny business

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just trying to survive. You do everything right, you do

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everything for your customers, you do everything for every cent.

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And I think you know, I didn't live it personally.

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I've worked in a tiny company before, so I did

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a lot of that myself, so but I think that

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is what comes daily into a software engineer's job. I mean,

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you're not nestily getting tasked of, right these three functions.

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You gain tasks of solving a specific problem and then

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it comes in and sometimes the problem is solved by

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writing an email and not writing any code. So so

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there is this sense of I want to do something

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good for the customer and for the business or ideally

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the mix of both. And yeah, and I think it's

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a different drive what you have and what type of

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skills at what you learn. And I think it goes

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back to university projects where everyone does it in some

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form or shape, and you know, motivation there and just

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trying to be trying to make it the best what

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you can at that point. But this older naivity what

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you have, I don't know, fifteen year old in school

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or twenty five year old in university. And so.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think there's a tangential relationship there to freelancing

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as well, because I did freelancing for a number of

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years and I talk with a lot of people who

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look at the rates that freelancers charge and they're like,

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oh my god, that's amazing, and so I try to

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caution everyone and say, okay, that's that number is big,

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but you're not always going to bill forty hours a

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week like you would, So like divide that number by three,

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because for every hour that you work billing a client,

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you have another hour of work for accounting and bookkeeping

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and all of the stuff with running your business. And

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then there's an additional hour on top of that where

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you need to do sales and marketing and prospecting and

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finding your next gig. So even though that hourly rate

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looks big, you have to divide it by three to

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realistically put it into.

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Speaker 3: Scope of what your actual job is.

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Speaker 5: I think you're under selling the stress that comes along

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with it as well. Right, you're not just doing those

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parts of the job that you normally think about. There's

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every other aspect of it. And then there's getting away

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from it and going back quote unquote home and still

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thinking about your business because it's your livelihood, and how

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to market in sales outside of that even when you're

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not making anything for that particular customer. So I can

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imagine there's a lot that goes into that for a

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very small startup, especially one in the chocolate tearing space.

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Speaker 2: I think it definitely also depends on even though now

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in software engineering or some technology aspect is I you

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more into short term projects. There's just like a lot

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of noise and overhead and phone calls to just make

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I don't know this week, this week's gig works worth

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it and that as much be Oh, I'm basically just

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like a loaner and heavier project assignment. There is you know,

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the economics change, but also you get a lower rate.

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So I think in the end then market tries to

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optimize for that. But like, yeah, you definitely learn also

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back to those skill sets and this drive too. I

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need to justify that hour, right, And I think that's

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the beauty of external people. They show up, they need

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to justify every single hour. And if external people are

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used the right way, independent on whether they come from

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a big company type of consultancy or as a one

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person is they don't have the ow ahead of a company, right,

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And that's that's I think important as you collaborate with

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those external people and making sure this hour needs to

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value differently than an internal one. The internal one you

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train that person to be excited in five years to

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grow internally versus for the other one like, this is

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the task in a week you on, this is how

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I can can actually get the value out of it,

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and also, hey, I paid you that, but you also delivered.

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I think that's really interesting dynamics, but often an oversight

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for those who are on the other hand, so not

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the freelancer, but actually receiving the freelance work and actually

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make that, make that a thing, and make make it

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work and make it valuable.

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Speaker 3: For sure.

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Speaker 1: So let's shift gears a little bit and talk about

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engineering excellence because that is our topic for the day.

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So Marcus, give us, like your your high level thoughts

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on what is engineering excellence and why it's important to you?

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Speaker 2: Mm hm. So I think it potentially builds up a

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little bit on where you started us here on you're

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just just having to drive on figuring out what's best

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for the business and the customer in the end, right,

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and you just like it's not fulfilling a chop description,

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but it's just whatever needs to get done. But that said,

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let's let's focus more on the excellence part of the

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engineering part and probably start with what is excellent, right,

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there's probably variety of definitions when you look up on

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the dictionaries and like it's wake, but some of those

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sentence has definitely resonated to see you it's something like

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greatness or being the very best, and you know there's

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millions of soft engineers in the world. Not everyone can

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be the very best. Not everyone can be you know,

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these star singers or star sports and athletes and so on.

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But nevertheless, you know, look, look look at other disciplines

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like sports. You might not become, you know, the next

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world champion of whatever sports, but you can look at them,

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you learn from them, and you kind of strive to

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do better even if you know you're never getting there.

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You know, you might have your lab times on money

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and then you just might want to be ten seconds

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faster in half a year and you're proud of that

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and you're striving for this incremental improvement. So anyway, so excellence,

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I think it obviously depends on where you're coming from,

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but generally it is about the relentless drive to become

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to envision that greatness and embrace it and make iterations

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towards that. And I think it's a little bit harder

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to find what does this mean in a job that's

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not so you know, you don't get so many medals

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by being the best. You don't get you know, you're

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not this key champion who is the fastest. You're not

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the golf of who uses the least amount of things.

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You're not now in the you know, Couper America and

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the European World CHAMPIONIP, there's just one team winning it.

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But nevertheless, those who are already out of the race,

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they they're part of the excellent strive as well, So

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let's not forget that. So it's definitely very inclusive of

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a lot of people here. But nevertheless, I think all

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of those who are on that playing field, they are

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they're just like doing one more thing than anyone else.

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So anyway, so how does that translate a little bit

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into engineering? And I think one of the interesting talks

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probably that that many might know is Lenis Tobo's defining

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good taste software. And he did that in a TED

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talk something like ten years ago and showed like, hey,

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this is how computer science teaches you to remove an

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item of a single lecklist or something like that, and

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it had this if condition in it. He must not

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lessly water by what he is taught by computer science,

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But why these if conditions. It's just like there might

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be a bug in this thing, and there's another if

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condition added, and it just adds this complexity versus really

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trying three layers deep of what's the thing, how can

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you solve it? And how can you solve it in

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a way that is just like, that's the thing, what

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it does. There's no discussions about it. There's basically no

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way of an alternative pass if the first one and

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the last one or the middle one and so on,

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Like all of a sudden, you get into no, that's

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the thing, no matter which item in the in this

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list it is. And I think that one is an

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interesting one in writing code and and I think now

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these days is a lot of that is a lot

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of us are working in the cloud or in some

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other form of you know, computing environment. And I think

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one of the interesting phase one I want to put

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out here, and it's well, let let's let's start go first,

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one step back. I think there are are two different things.

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One is kind of on agreed baseline, and you can

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set that in your company or for yourself. You can

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set that at whatever level you actually want. Hopefully that

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level of that baseline increases over time. But I think

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those are you know, you can look at classical engineering

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KPIs how quick are you to recover from a failure

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in production? How quick are you able to in what's

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the velocity in the team, what's the error rate? You know,

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there's the Dora metrics out there, there's a bunch of

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other ways to measure that. Whether you really measure that

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or just like gut feeling type of measurement almost doesn't matter.

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But like, that's the baseline security Laaren. You had an

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example at the beginning, like you know, okay, how do

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we you know, instead of increasing your password rotations, can

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we actually decrease the amount of passwords we have in

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our systems? Right, It's a different type of approach. How

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you can think of that, And that's I think there

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is I don't think there is a standard in the world,

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but there's agreement of those argued things, right, And I

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think then there's this other part which is not this baseline.

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It's it's very drives innovation. They drive to try out

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something new, and trying out something new in your environment

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might be I've never worked in a cloud, but let's

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run the first service in the cloud. Even though that's

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a ten plus year old saying it might be oh,

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this is how we do things here on running a

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specifically workflow, and let's try and alternative way. You're not

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getting into childscript front and frameworks because you try another

255
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one every other week. I'm still ten years ago. Who still?

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Speaker 4: I mean, you be careful.

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Speaker 5: You gotta be careful there because I'm sure someone's still

258
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using like ember or knockout or something like that.

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Speaker 4: That's that's still around.

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Speaker 5: I mean, there's an interesting question here of of how

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do you even measure an engineer to be better and

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whether or not the ext whence happens at an individual

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level or at a team level. You know, I know

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that I am a terrible individual software engineer, and I

265
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shut her to think that someone will be evaluating me

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on like the number of lines of code that I

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turn out, because I know that number is incredibly small.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and even if that's the right metric.

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Speaker 1: So I think that's one of the things that I

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think about when I think about engineering excellence is defining

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how we're going to define excellent because I think it

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varies from team to team. You know, each team is

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going to consider different things important, and you can't have

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everything important. So I think everyone just has to have

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that conversation, you know, to say, these are the things

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that we're going to consider important. And you know, maybe

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that's going to change over time, but this is where

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we're going to start, and everyone's on the same page.

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Speaker 2: There.

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Speaker 5: There is this underlying assumption though, that it's somehow not

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directly related to the business, right because you know, otherwise

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you would say somehow engineering excellence means delivering the right

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business outcome or I mean maybe there's some business.

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Speaker 4: Metrics already, you know, why not use that term?

285
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Speaker 5: So I don't know, at least for me, it does

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sort of spark this idea of what are we innovating,

287
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what are we what are we improving.

288
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Speaker 4: In some way?

289
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Speaker 5: What is that really? You know, what is the meaningful outcome?

290
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And I think the linus forbodes coding good taste is

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an interesting aspect here because how you write that function?

292
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Speaker 4: How does it impact the business? Does it?

293
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Speaker 5: I mean maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. So what

294
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are we even evaluating there and how do we even

295
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do that?

296
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Speaker 2: Absolutely? And I think you know, going to the invo

297
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versus team, in the end, it counts what the team delivers, right,

298
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it's the same. But you have a team sports, you

299
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can have the start plays and one star player often

300
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can have a pretty bad team because everyone cages around

301
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that star player and typically doesn't have much of a

302
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chance against the team that's just very cohesive, especially I

303
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mean catering for the start player as a cohesive team

304
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that's very strong. But if they are fights behind the

305
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scenes doesn't work anyway. So that sets back to the

306
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sports andology. But I think it's it's really what is

307
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the team coming out in terms of and I think

308
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will do To your point, I think there's a few

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things that are true almost no matter where you are.

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I think you don't necessarily want to ship bugs to production, right,

311
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so less bugs and production is probably a metric that

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everyone agrease.

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Speaker 5: Controversial thought there. I don't want bugs of production. Tho's

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got to disagree with you somewhere, Marcus, I'm sure.

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Speaker 2: And to be honest, I think what is a challenge

316
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if you're and think of my role, I mean this

317
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is this the print is a sizeable business, and you

318
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know order management. You don't necessarily want to give away

319
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or just for free because your payment didn't work, or

320
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you want to block things that check out. So it's

321
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a serious thing. You need to move very slow at

322
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some point. And for example, for mine team, it is

323
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like an interesting thing. Oh this is a new thing.

324
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Don't work like you work in your usual environment. Just

325
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like have a hecka on type of experience, or have

326
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one person go off on basically an island for we

327
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can come back and have this zero to eighty percent

328
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solution out there. You're not going to break anything in code,

329
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you're not going to make any customers unhappy. But it

330
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allows you to move fast. So basically a little bit

331
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of an unconventional approach. So yeah, shipping bugs into production,

332
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it might actually there might be some use cases around

333
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you know, prototypes, early things. Then you haven't figured out

334
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the exact park market fit. That's it. I still argue

335
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that you always scale down on features and have the

336
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right quality because otherwise, when you ship something of these

337
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little features that are all buggy, you're not going to

338
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make product market fit.

339
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Speaker 5: So you're as a director of engineering, you've got like

340
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four or five ten teams reporting to you. I'm not

341
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sure that number is totally relevant. So when you're saying

342
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sharing excellence, like you're actually putting these expectations on your

343
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individual teams too.

344
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Speaker 4: Is it deliver faster?

345
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Speaker 5: Is it to deliver more of the right thing related

346
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to the business, Like, how are you actually evaluating your

347
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teams on this? Is it a metric you're even using

348
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to evaluate or is it just is it some idea?

349
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Speaker 4: What is that for you?

350
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Speaker 2: I'm definitely the person who is more in the idea

351
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than I mean, I'm very much data driven in terms

352
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of wants to figure something out. I want to want

353
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to chase that metric, and obviously, you know, I think

354
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reasons because like chasing one metric, you're ignoring the other ones,

355
00:19:39,079 --> 00:19:43,519
so you always need to counterbalance. But you know, there's

356
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this this interesting discussions of not sure if I want

357
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to go there, but like if you're doing the second

358
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or third like even when you run AWDs elastic kumunated service,

359
00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:02,359
but then you need the kuminat is out of lifetime, right,

360
00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:05,920
they need to move to the next version. You can

361
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close your eyes and hit that upgrade button in place

362
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upgrade and hope for the best and you might be lucky.

363
00:20:13,799 --> 00:20:16,200
But it's a little bit like I don't feel confident.

364
00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:21,480
You know, there's there's order is coming in every other second, right,

365
00:20:21,519 --> 00:20:24,480
I mean, this is is not something what you want

366
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to play with. And once you have start having those discussions,

367
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like there's other solutions out in the world where you're

368
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not even in that problem, those other solutions might or

369
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might not be a fit for the team. Right. It's

370
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not saying we should go elsewhere, but we're definitely having

371
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active discussions around that because we're our customers are not

372
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not buying a comment adies upgrade from us. You're buying

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business cards, bottles, t shirts, all those type of things

374
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in our case or in other cases might be different things.

375
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And and so it needs to come with this reality

376
00:21:01,839 --> 00:21:04,799
check on you know what's I mean, what's this total

377
00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:07,839
cost of ownership? Is the old style version of saying

378
00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:11,680
it probably or very mechanical way and then it come

379
00:21:11,759 --> 00:21:13,440
up with your business cases. But I think this is

380
00:21:14,319 --> 00:21:19,119
things come up constantly, and that could be this service

381
00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:23,599
is constantly making problems and creating noise. You want to

382
00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:27,920
dive deep. Is it engineering excellence? It could also be

383
00:21:28,519 --> 00:21:30,839
that other partners in the business are you know, not

384
00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:33,319
aware of what they're causing. Like you know, think of

385
00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:38,000
some configuration elsewhere three layers down in the system and

386
00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:42,359
you have no idea, or they might be disconnected from

387
00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:45,839
what actually that is causing. It might call cause customer

388
00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:49,400
complaints and it's very very indirect and very very slow

389
00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:54,119
feedback loop. And so sometimes it's not you know, the

390
00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:57,720
problem might not be technical, it might be a process problem.

391
00:21:57,759 --> 00:22:00,240
But generally this is also part of excellence, but they'll

392
00:22:00,279 --> 00:22:03,240
be getting a little bit further into excellence of a team,

393
00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:05,880
excellence of a pride team, excellence of an organization. And

394
00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:09,000
I think, you know, yeah, I'm definitely more qualified to

395
00:22:09,039 --> 00:22:10,359
talk about engineering excellence.

396
00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:13,319
Speaker 4: I mean, I like the Kobrinties example.

397
00:22:14,079 --> 00:22:17,680
Speaker 5: So if we say bad engineering excellence is just closing

398
00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:20,559
your eyes and clicking the upgrade button, or maybe closing

399
00:22:20,599 --> 00:22:22,920
your eyes and just letting a WUS charges more money

400
00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:27,200
because it's on the extended lifetime support strategy, what what

401
00:22:27,359 --> 00:22:29,759
is good engineering excellence in that in that situation? Like

402
00:22:29,799 --> 00:22:32,400
what would you expect there on that spectrum?

403
00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:37,519
Speaker 2: Generally, I think, you know, maintenance should be low or

404
00:22:37,599 --> 00:22:40,799
reasonable for the value you create as a business or

405
00:22:40,839 --> 00:22:43,119
as a team. And you know, what's the value what

406
00:22:43,279 --> 00:22:46,000
you create? Sometimes it is more tied to a revenue

407
00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:49,960
stream and other times it's more tied to something a

408
00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:51,920
little bit that decided. You know, it doesn't necessarily be

409
00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:56,880
a dollar metric, but it needs to you know, not

410
00:22:57,039 --> 00:22:59,440
not sure what would other companies and teams generally have

411
00:22:59,559 --> 00:23:02,279
in their mind, but I would argue, you know, thirty

412
00:23:02,319 --> 00:23:05,559
percent is stuff that engineers need to do to maintain

413
00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:11,440
their status core and then you know there's this admin overhead,

414
00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:13,920
but then the majority of it should be to move

415
00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:17,839
the product forward, to move the projects forward. That comes

416
00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:20,119
with coding, that comes up with his non coding activities,

417
00:23:20,799 --> 00:23:23,039
and really doing good for the customer. You want to

418
00:23:23,079 --> 00:23:28,119
increase that share of the you know, the maintenance activity.

419
00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:31,200
So maintenance comes with there certain you know, in my

420
00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:33,640
environment's a little bit of large companies, certain things that

421
00:23:33,759 --> 00:23:38,880
are must do by a given date, certain upgrades, certain

422
00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:42,279
compliance aspects and so on, and those you know, those

423
00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:44,920
covering you know, ten inch percent, and they might come

424
00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:46,519
up with some spikes and some lows and so on,

425
00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:50,799
and the rest is I'm interested in the team rather

426
00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:55,000
spending this thirty percent time in figuring out a new

427
00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:58,559
service or new workload version to run, or a new

428
00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:04,960
technique or documentation other thing versus. Yeah, this is what

429
00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:08,480
we do. Twice a year. We just do it right

430
00:24:08,599 --> 00:24:12,359
and think, think of something simpler than thencuminated is password rotation.

431
00:24:12,519 --> 00:24:14,920
Probably want to get into rhythm or rotating your password.

432
00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:17,319
Initially you pro might say, yeah, it's just three, let's

433
00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:19,200
do it manually. And at some point you have fifty

434
00:24:19,279 --> 00:24:21,079
and some point like, oh, this is a problem, right,

435
00:24:21,559 --> 00:24:26,319
and sure give this too. Junior person to onboard to

436
00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:29,359
launder systems and they go into fifty places and update those.

437
00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:32,480
At some point someone comes in and does some automation

438
00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:34,720
around this, and at some point you think, why do

439
00:24:34,799 --> 00:24:37,920
I even have those passwords? So I'm so there is

440
00:24:38,079 --> 00:24:41,279
very Yes, I'm going a little bit by feeling it

441
00:24:41,319 --> 00:24:45,240
by noise, but then I'm fortunately have to have access

442
00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:48,559
to a lot of data of thinking how many what's

443
00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:52,799
the average password age, what's the rotation of it, what's

444
00:24:52,839 --> 00:24:55,400
it over the timeline, and the timeline is very strong,

445
00:24:55,559 --> 00:24:57,440
like if it goes up and you actually want to

446
00:24:57,480 --> 00:24:59,519
go it down or the other way around, like you

447
00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:02,880
can still acting before it explodes. And I think that's

448
00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:05,640
a really really important thing. So thinking of you know,

449
00:25:05,759 --> 00:25:07,759
this cuminating thing, it's not the worst thing what I

450
00:25:07,839 --> 00:25:10,920
have in my team by far not. It's actually serving

451
00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:15,440
a lot of value work. Those were things right from

452
00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:22,319
a real engineering perspective, right, But nevertheless, it is distractions

453
00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:26,400
and you're having you know, fifty plus seventy plus services

454
00:25:26,759 --> 00:25:29,880
and each of that needs kind of a redeployment to

455
00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:31,799
a new cluster if you want to move it over.

456
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:34,079
And then like even if you bring down the hour,

457
00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:37,319
like let's just assume one hour per service, that's fifty

458
00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:42,160
seventy hours per year, which is a week, giving you

459
00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:45,480
thirty plus engineers working on the whole thing for the

460
00:25:45,599 --> 00:25:48,000
year and doing that once or twice a week, it's

461
00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:51,400
an okay thing. But not having that in the first place,

462
00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:55,119
that's an even better thing. With thirty hours, you can

463
00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:58,559
do quite a bit of other things that might actually

464
00:25:58,599 --> 00:26:01,279
drive forward. So that is, for example, we have not

465
00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:03,240
yet decided whether we want to get off of it

466
00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:05,680
or not. But what I'm excited about the team now

467
00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:09,079
looks at should we do something else, And very specifically,

468
00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:12,640
a is ECS is a very you know, natural follow

469
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:15,480
up in staying on a WS. But you know, different

470
00:26:15,519 --> 00:26:18,920
cloud providers will have very similar real cloud and options

471
00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:21,119
and more managed versus less managed services.

472
00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:25,519
Speaker 5: Maybe this is an unfair interpretation of engineering excellence, and

473
00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:28,119
maybe will we'll give me a thumbs up here or

474
00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:31,880
down on how oft I am. I think maybe another

475
00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:34,839
way of looking at this is challenging the status quo

476
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:38,000
in a way which may identify that what we have

477
00:26:38,559 --> 00:26:41,319
could be categorized as tech debt. And I don't like

478
00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:43,240
the word tech debt a lot, but maybe what you're

479
00:26:43,279 --> 00:26:45,720
saying is, you know, what do we have right now?

480
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:48,160
Is it actually the systems that we want in play?

481
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:51,559
Actually the technology we want to be using? The stack,

482
00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:54,000
the programming language frameworks, you know, are they actually the

483
00:26:54,079 --> 00:26:55,519
thing that we want to be using or should it

484
00:26:55,599 --> 00:26:58,079
be something else? And I think the point you made,

485
00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:01,000
Marcus is that none of these things have anything to

486
00:27:01,079 --> 00:27:04,599
do with delivering the business value on a short term timescale.

487
00:27:06,599 --> 00:27:08,839
But there's like a long term implication here and an

488
00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:12,079
expectation that the teams are asking themselves, Hey, you know

489
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:15,799
this technology you're using, should you even have to rotate passwords?

490
00:27:16,039 --> 00:27:18,039
You know, this thing that you're doing constantly that you

491
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:21,200
may be baked into tradition doesn't necessarily make sense.

492
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:23,319
Speaker 4: I don't know.

493
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:25,240
Speaker 2: I don't know if I'm right there absolutely, And I

494
00:27:25,319 --> 00:27:29,759
think this is I think challenge status crul of what

495
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:32,079
you're doing constantly. I mean, look look at look at

496
00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:34,319
the world what it was ten years ago, and what

497
00:27:34,759 --> 00:27:39,599
services did your favorite cloud provider have out there? I mean,

498
00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:42,200
by now, you're just exploding in services. And sometimes it's

499
00:27:42,279 --> 00:27:44,039
just like kind of a fake service on top of

500
00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:47,640
three of their other services. But all services are also

501
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:51,799
getting better, right, so I think that is and they

502
00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:55,960
find their very own product market fit. And just look

503
00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:58,680
at something like S three what you were able to

504
00:27:58,759 --> 00:28:02,079
do ten years ago versus now, how much of an

505
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:05,000
important pillar that is, for example for data lakes and

506
00:28:05,079 --> 00:28:07,000
other things like who would have put the data and

507
00:28:07,079 --> 00:28:10,559
do sequel statements on top of a three bucket? Nobody?

508
00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:14,359
But today that that that's how the big data warehouses

509
00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:16,720
actually make money, right and and like this this is

510
00:28:16,759 --> 00:28:19,400
how technology was look at you know, we may chat

511
00:28:19,519 --> 00:28:22,240
jokes about front and frameworks, look at where they where

512
00:28:22,279 --> 00:28:24,559
they came from, and what are they doing today and

513
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:28,000
like including things like you know those server side versions

514
00:28:28,039 --> 00:28:34,160
of it on how you can ventor things, and and

515
00:28:34,279 --> 00:28:37,799
I think it's it's we should challenge basically every day,

516
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:41,839
what are we doing is this really necessarily and think

517
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:44,359
of how could we do things differently at the same time,

518
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:48,400
I think there is a beauty of not classifying something

519
00:28:48,599 --> 00:28:52,119
just because it's old as tech dev but saying, look

520
00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:57,240
at you're milking the cout here right, You haven't invested much,

521
00:28:57,559 --> 00:29:03,559
but it still works and and I think there might

522
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:07,039
there might be a servileized function out there. Yes, you

523
00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:10,720
might need to upgrade I don't know the library version

524
00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:14,920
once a year, but it still does this thing. It's

525
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:19,039
not massive tech there. Would you would you design the

526
00:29:19,119 --> 00:29:22,799
system exactly like that from scratch? Potentially not because the

527
00:29:22,839 --> 00:29:26,240
world has changed, but it's still good enough and not

528
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:29,839
worth changing. Like you know, identifying those tipping points when

529
00:29:30,079 --> 00:29:33,880
is it actually a value or an asset and one

530
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:36,519
when does it start to become a liability is an

531
00:29:36,559 --> 00:29:41,599
interesting thing to think of. But I would not classify

532
00:29:41,799 --> 00:29:47,200
any programming language or any past decisions as lessli tech there.

533
00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:50,440
But you know, when you think of where's the world

534
00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:53,839
going in terms of you know, relational databases were that thing,

535
00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:59,799
and yeah, ten years ago it was still their thing.

536
00:30:00,319 --> 00:30:03,759
No sequels started to be other things. But these days

537
00:30:04,079 --> 00:30:07,480
when you hire someone off the university, they don't know

538
00:30:07,559 --> 00:30:10,519
how to write sequel statements anymore because that's not being

539
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:14,400
taught in school they only learn no sequels and blog

540
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:16,599
storage and all those things. I think it's the right

541
00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:21,880
thing to teach to them. But knowing sequel it's actually

542
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:26,000
good skill to have. So, you know, does my team

543
00:30:26,119 --> 00:30:29,160
have a bunch of relational database yes? Is it worthwhile

544
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:33,880
changing that? I don't think so it is it worthwhile

545
00:30:34,119 --> 00:30:36,920
maintaining it to something? Very say? No, you are satisfied.

546
00:30:37,039 --> 00:30:43,920
Is the cost, performance, backup failures, all the whole criteria. Yes, absolutely,

547
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:46,559
we need to tame the beast if you want right,

548
00:30:48,119 --> 00:30:51,039
but not all workloads require things on you know this

549
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:54,599
horizontal scalability and other effects. What you can actually get

550
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:59,000
out of no sequel databases. So that doesn't mean just

551
00:30:59,079 --> 00:31:00,759
because you have this and you need to get off

552
00:31:00,799 --> 00:31:02,799
of it, but you need to identify at some point

553
00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:05,480
it might be, oh, now it's the right time to move.

554
00:31:05,559 --> 00:31:07,319
It might come as a project, it might come with.

555
00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:11,359
Speaker 5: Something I'm wondering about, the who who who spends the

556
00:31:11,599 --> 00:31:15,359
effort doing this? And I think maybe this is where

557
00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:19,480
maybe the sort of thing that drove forward the mindset

558
00:31:19,519 --> 00:31:22,079
in the first place, the movement towards DevOps uh, the

559
00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:26,920
idea that more attention needs to be on evaluating the

560
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:30,039
excellence of our of the engineering that we're doing, and

561
00:31:30,359 --> 00:31:33,079
maybe there's a cultural component to it that not everyone

562
00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:36,079
is has the sort of mindset to look at what

563
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:40,039
we're doing today and actually improve it or fundamentally having

564
00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:42,799
to change what we're doing. Uh that that can be

565
00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:45,319
scary for lots of people as well. So I feel

566
00:31:45,319 --> 00:31:47,359
like there's an aspect there which could have driven the

567
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:50,960
DevOps mindset, which was maybe a different team is responsible

568
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:55,079
for infrastructure, and maybe the sort of product teams say, hey,

569
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:59,440
other teams in our company are fundamentally responsible for doing

570
00:31:59,519 --> 00:32:02,559
this innovation, deciding which version of Kubernetes, or whether or

571
00:32:02,599 --> 00:32:07,440
not we're using Cerblus functions, et cetera. Ah Is is

572
00:32:07,519 --> 00:32:10,759
there an aspect where every team should be doing something

573
00:32:10,839 --> 00:32:13,599
in their own domain or do we think we've moved

574
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:17,079
the industry has moved in a direction where a lot

575
00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:20,960
of these decisions are we've already identified which team is

576
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:22,759
fundamentally responsible for making them.

577
00:32:26,599 --> 00:32:28,880
Speaker 2: Well, I think I think it's at the engineer's hard

578
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:32,839
to actually make improvements in their own realm, right. I

579
00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:37,519
think there's companies that say, heybe have a central team

580
00:32:37,599 --> 00:32:40,880
that you know, manageerain things like but we provide a

581
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:45,240
link to a get up repository and magic happens, right,

582
00:32:45,319 --> 00:32:46,960
And this is this is the script what you need

583
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:50,319
to put there, and here's some conflict what you can

584
00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:54,000
you know, how it scales. That's a very valuable approach

585
00:32:54,079 --> 00:32:56,359
to do it. And I think the approach today will

586
00:32:56,359 --> 00:32:58,920
also be different than the approaches were done you know

587
00:32:59,039 --> 00:33:02,039
ten years ago. Is basically sis ops and database ops

588
00:33:02,079 --> 00:33:06,240
and managing deployments manually and sailors and you know, local

589
00:33:06,759 --> 00:33:09,720
local things versus cloud cloud versions and son uh and

590
00:33:09,839 --> 00:33:12,599
there is that. The way is your your ability to

591
00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:15,279
run it as a basically as a Pride team or

592
00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:19,799
as a small development team of you know, two pizza

593
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:23,759
teams type of size, right the Tannish people in total ah,

594
00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:28,640
But no matter what model you are, you have different

595
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:30,920
responses with your task is really going into these whole

596
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:36,319
depthops from from you know, prop typing to delivering testing

597
00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:39,559
to also running it production including your you know, on

598
00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:44,839
call schedule, or it's a little bit more you only

599
00:33:45,319 --> 00:33:48,039
you know you depending there might be some handover for

600
00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:53,039
for monitoring. But in both ways you have areas where

601
00:33:53,039 --> 00:33:56,480
I wanted to improve it could be on you should

602
00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:58,839
definitely be interested, like when we look at very technical

603
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:04,920
metrics error rate, response rate, latencies, certain things. You might

604
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:06,880
have a little bit more leverage in one model versus

605
00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:10,960
the other, but you should be interesting to understanding your craft,

606
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:16,000
which is in the end it is could be two ways, right,

607
00:34:16,079 --> 00:34:19,599
One is really just writing the code and writing that

608
00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:22,519
in a way that scales in terms of features, but

609
00:34:22,679 --> 00:34:26,480
also in terms of performance and probably many many other angles,

610
00:34:26,679 --> 00:34:30,079
right and you know, not testability and all sorts of things.

611
00:34:31,559 --> 00:34:33,800
So that that's definitely want to but there is I

612
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:35,559
think when we go a little bit you a build it,

613
00:34:35,639 --> 00:34:39,719
you run it model, you also have this you architect

614
00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:43,880
potentially differently because running workloads in the cloud, especially when

615
00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:46,639
you go into a little bit more of these ACYNC

616
00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:49,880
processing type of things. Right, do you have an event

617
00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:53,199
and something can happen in the back background, So think

618
00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:55,760
of an order being taken in into the systems. A

619
00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:58,800
bunch of things that are happening, but the customers don't

620
00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:00,440
need to wait for that. They you don't need to

621
00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:03,440
wait until this thing get shipped out while the browser

622
00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:06,119
spends for two weeks. That's not really really right. So

623
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:11,519
there is a lot of these aspects, but like, how

624
00:35:11,559 --> 00:35:14,800
would you architect something from scratch given the latest accourages

625
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:20,079
that the cloud providers provide. That requires constant challenging because

626
00:35:20,199 --> 00:35:23,880
like five plus years ago it was SNS and SQS

627
00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:26,119
on Amazon, but now with a vent bridge, it's just

628
00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:28,559
like so many more features. And then how do you

629
00:35:28,639 --> 00:35:31,480
do that between teams? Do you still go through either

630
00:35:31,679 --> 00:35:34,639
arrest or graph Well or so API or do you

631
00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:37,280
actually hook up some teams internally through some of those

632
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:42,960
you know, cloud native event systems. There's many ways to

633
00:35:43,039 --> 00:35:46,119
get there, and like always can lead to excellence in

634
00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:50,360
the very context. But I think just saying yeah, we

635
00:35:50,639 --> 00:35:55,119
made this decision five plus years ago is yes, but

636
00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:59,519
you're missing out on you can delete these three services

637
00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:02,480
then just moving data around, which is solved by this

638
00:36:02,639 --> 00:36:04,920
configuration over here in the cloud provider now. So I

639
00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:08,360
think if you're not doing these type of things and

640
00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:11,440
then assuming cloud deployment now and not any other type

641
00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:16,000
of deployments, like yes, it keeps your team busy, it

642
00:36:16,159 --> 00:36:20,320
keeps potentially team efficient. They might even have engineering excellence

643
00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:23,320
within that code, but not owning that code at all,

644
00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:26,440
but moving that to configuration and let Amazon who is

645
00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:31,360
or Google cloud or asia scale that for you and

646
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:35,239
manage that for you. That's really where scalability and excellence

647
00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:36,440
also it definitely comes in.

648
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:42,360
Speaker 5: You said something really interesting about the amount of time

649
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:45,679
a team should be dedicated to engineering excellence.

650
00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:47,199
Speaker 4: I think you just sort of dropped it in there.

651
00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:48,880
That's thirty percent number.

652
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:52,639
Speaker 5: And I'm curious, you know, as another perspective here, maybe

653
00:36:52,679 --> 00:36:54,280
will you've got one like how much time do you

654
00:36:54,519 --> 00:36:58,360
do teams feel like in and around you, how much

655
00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:01,400
time they actually have to invest in this? Because I know,

656
00:37:02,159 --> 00:37:05,280
even at smaller company scale or larger ones, I know

657
00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:07,519
there's like some expectations that go around, but then you

658
00:37:07,679 --> 00:37:09,880
have maybe some product managers that come in and say, no,

659
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:11,320
we have to just deliver.

660
00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:13,760
Speaker 4: You know, how do you do do do.

661
00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:16,559
Speaker 5: Teams actually get that time to do this or is

662
00:37:16,599 --> 00:37:19,800
it about cutting out that time and actually saying no, right,

663
00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:22,400
you know, even though we have all this feature work

664
00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:25,320
to do, we still need to spend this amount of

665
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:28,079
time really looking at what we've got in questioning our

666
00:37:28,079 --> 00:37:30,760
status quo, like our engineer is actually being given that

667
00:37:31,199 --> 00:37:33,840
capability or is this just you know a nice thing

668
00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:35,679
to say and doesn't happen in practice.

669
00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:43,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, it definitely happens in practice for my environment. It's

670
00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:45,840
more or less depending on teams. And I think it's

671
00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:48,239
you know, to response to my direct responsibility to enable

672
00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:50,800
that in the team. And you know you're working with

673
00:37:51,159 --> 00:37:54,679
you know, alongside product and alongside ux, so it's it's

674
00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:58,199
it's my thing to defend that time, right Otherwise, I mean,

675
00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:02,480
it's just one part of my job. But you know,

676
00:38:02,639 --> 00:38:08,760
the company also values engineering practices a lot, so there

677
00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:13,360
is a bunch of that filter filmed by already central things, right,

678
00:38:13,599 --> 00:38:17,400
mandatory upgrades, mandatory things. Also, what we're doing as part

679
00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:20,360
of quarterly planning is you're showing, Okay, how much do

680
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:23,599
you spend on things that someone else tells you to

681
00:38:23,679 --> 00:38:26,440
do on the feature side, things that you actually want

682
00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:28,880
to do for your customer because you understood that problem

683
00:38:29,039 --> 00:38:32,079
really trying to do that, and then things basically in

684
00:38:32,159 --> 00:38:36,679
this whole engineering excellence it's on even so I think

685
00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:39,199
that it's probably the wrong world we want to call that,

686
00:38:39,639 --> 00:38:41,960
you know, this maintenance moving forward. So I think there

687
00:38:42,119 --> 00:38:45,920
is this excellent part which I think isn't is not

688
00:38:46,079 --> 00:38:49,199
necessarily reported out there, but I think that is something

689
00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:53,519
as the engineering leaders they are definitely responsible to get

690
00:38:53,599 --> 00:38:56,599
that into the teams and the mindset of the teams

691
00:38:56,639 --> 00:39:00,239
and the inn wilds right every individual there's forty hours

692
00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:04,639
a week. Sometimes it can be someone is passionate about

693
00:39:04,639 --> 00:39:07,360
the following block podcast like this one, and it comes

694
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:10,880
out with a cool idea to actually start. Others are following,

695
00:39:11,199 --> 00:39:13,400
you know, some news, and others are actually interested in

696
00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:16,440
reading the documentation on the cloud provider or SaaS provided

697
00:39:16,519 --> 00:39:19,079
whatever and saying hey, there's a new technique, let's try

698
00:39:19,119 --> 00:39:22,800
it out. I encourage really everyone to do that. That's

699
00:39:23,119 --> 00:39:25,360
way harder to do and get that into the mindset

700
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:28,320
of everyone versus the otis is a lot of more,

701
00:39:28,639 --> 00:39:30,519
you know, leadership driven and saying hey, by the way,

702
00:39:30,599 --> 00:39:32,880
we need to do this for the long term health.

703
00:39:33,159 --> 00:39:36,679
And it comes a little bit as yeah, the expectation

704
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:38,519
is that you're looking to that promise space.

705
00:39:41,559 --> 00:39:45,119
Speaker 1: I think that there's a lot of so let me

706
00:39:45,159 --> 00:39:50,400
say this, if your definition of excellence is defined correctly,

707
00:39:51,159 --> 00:39:55,000
I think a lot of the time and effort it

708
00:39:55,159 --> 00:40:00,840
takes to achieve excellence just happens natively. And I use

709
00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:04,199
an example of like a sports team. You know, every

710
00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:07,960
member of a sports team has a different definition of excellence,

711
00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:14,519
but each each team member's definition of excellence supports the

712
00:40:14,639 --> 00:40:17,239
definition of excellence above that. So if you start it

713
00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:21,480
like the franchise owner, their definition of excellence is to

714
00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:25,920
sell as many tickets to their games as possible.

715
00:40:26,679 --> 00:40:30,119
Speaker 3: But then you get down to the coach, and the coach's.

716
00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:35,320
Speaker 1: Definition of excellence is to hire the best quality of

717
00:40:35,519 --> 00:40:40,639
players for the team that creates a well performing team

718
00:40:41,039 --> 00:40:43,599
that sells the most number of tickets possible. And when

719
00:40:43,639 --> 00:40:46,840
you get to an individual team player, that person's job

720
00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:50,400
maybe to you know, catch the ball and move the

721
00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:55,800
ball down field, or to defend against the ball being moved,

722
00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:59,679
or whatever their specific role is for that sport so

723
00:41:00,079 --> 00:41:04,440
that their team performs better, so that they have the

724
00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:07,079
support of the fans, so that they sell more tickets

725
00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:09,880
to the games. And so each one of those people

726
00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:12,679
have has a different definition of excellence, but they all

727
00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:15,480
support each other going all the way up. And then

728
00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:19,119
whenever you get down to that individual team player, they

729
00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:22,639
know that they have to catch the ball or defend

730
00:41:22,679 --> 00:41:26,280
the ball or whatever, and that's their metric that they

731
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:29,519
measure against. And so it's easy for them to make

732
00:41:29,639 --> 00:41:33,360
decisions that either support or don't support that definition of

733
00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:37,119
excellence because it's clearly defined with what they do and

734
00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:38,960
how that supports the overall organization.

735
00:41:40,039 --> 00:41:41,840
Speaker 5: I mean, I feel like you too, just keep picking

736
00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:44,760
up the football analogy and just the ticket in me

737
00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:47,880
because both my teams have been kicked out of their

738
00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:51,360
associated competitions. Right.

739
00:41:52,599 --> 00:41:54,960
Speaker 1: Well, I'll be honest, I'm a Dallas Cowboys fan for

740
00:41:55,079 --> 00:41:57,960
American football, So I have no idea how to define

741
00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:00,599
excellence because clearly I don't understan and the game.

742
00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:08,360
Speaker 2: So I think where you were going to is to me,

743
00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:12,199
it's a little bit the business metrics, right Basically, the

744
00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:19,000
KPIs that are are very outcome driven, and I think

745
00:42:20,199 --> 00:42:23,880
the excellent part in that relation to sports will be

746
00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:28,000
how how do people show up day to day on

747
00:42:28,119 --> 00:42:30,960
that training, not leastly on the match, but almost more

748
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:34,159
on the training. How do they challenge each other to

749
00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:38,280
become better? What's the unique training plan that they have

750
00:42:39,119 --> 00:42:41,159
that is or it could be also you know they

751
00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:43,000
bring into college and say, by the way, now we

752
00:42:43,119 --> 00:42:45,880
know what the competing team does, so we can actually

753
00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:49,159
outperform them through through the brain instead of through the body. Basically,

754
00:42:50,119 --> 00:42:52,320
so I think that is that to me, their verre

755
00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:56,039
it starts to be really, yes, everyone does that. Everyone

756
00:42:56,079 --> 00:42:58,280
wants to sell more tickets, Everyone wants to have the

757
00:42:58,320 --> 00:43:00,400
best coach, everyone wants to have the best players and

758
00:43:00,519 --> 00:43:03,719
basically get the best performance out of the value invested.

759
00:43:05,119 --> 00:43:08,440
But I think this the excellence is not achieved by that.

760
00:43:08,639 --> 00:43:12,440
That's really achieving it by management, by you know, there

761
00:43:12,599 --> 00:43:14,679
is a lot of value and that's needed in a corporation.

762
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:17,599
That's needed in the corporational e sports and a corporation,

763
00:43:18,159 --> 00:43:25,800
you know, like this brand, but this excellence around like

764
00:43:26,119 --> 00:43:28,880
how can I how can it be innovative in my training?

765
00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:31,639
How can I be innovative in my nutrition? How can

766
00:43:31,719 --> 00:43:36,400
I be innovative in in the tactics during the game.

767
00:43:37,119 --> 00:43:39,800
That's I think where versus the next level? And and

768
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:44,280
also you can follow schoolbooks, you need to come up

769
00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:47,079
with your own approaches and more un convention or buttn't

770
00:43:47,079 --> 00:43:49,199
you're not necessarily your own, but at least you need

771
00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:52,239
to read through those unconventional approaches, try them out, and

772
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:55,480
adopt them to your needs. So that that's a little

773
00:43:55,519 --> 00:43:58,320
bit this type of how I would distinguish that where

774
00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:03,199
it's engineering excellence, This is I think I was conflating

775
00:44:03,239 --> 00:44:05,000
those a little bit before as I went to do

776
00:44:05,079 --> 00:44:07,280
the other topic. But I think there's very good like

777
00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:12,119
to draw a line on their excellent starts and they're

778
00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:16,480
you know, engineering practices or you know, other things are

779
00:44:16,599 --> 00:44:18,480
there to just like establish the baseline.

780
00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:23,079
Speaker 5: I think you really touched on an interesting aspect here

781
00:44:23,599 --> 00:44:27,199
because I do remember reading a paper about how in

782
00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:29,760
order to actually get better, we need to do that

783
00:44:29,960 --> 00:44:33,360
thing called practice. And if we only do the execute

784
00:44:33,719 --> 00:44:37,239
production thing, you know, show up to the games all

785
00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:40,239
the time, we won't get.

786
00:44:40,119 --> 00:44:40,800
Speaker 4: That practice then.

787
00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:42,559
Speaker 5: And the practice is where we have the opportunity to

788
00:44:42,679 --> 00:44:44,960
really change up what we're doing or learn more.

789
00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:48,239
Speaker 4: And I do see the industry moving sort of at

790
00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:51,079
the moment more away from that and forgetting that we

791
00:44:51,159 --> 00:44:51,880
need to do the practice.

792
00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:54,360
Speaker 5: Maybe the engineering excellence really is what do you do

793
00:44:54,559 --> 00:44:57,760
during your software development your engineering practice sessions?

794
00:44:57,840 --> 00:44:59,880
Speaker 4: You know, what are you doing there? How are you evaluating?

795
00:45:00,519 --> 00:45:03,079
Speaker 5: And there was a bunch of years ago there was

796
00:45:03,119 --> 00:45:07,800
actually a documentary soccer documentary that was recording neymar and

797
00:45:08,079 --> 00:45:10,920
the Brazilian soccer player, and they used.

798
00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:14,199
Speaker 4: Brain diodes to.

799
00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:22,000
Speaker 5: Identify how much he's thinking during a game versus practice.

800
00:45:22,199 --> 00:45:25,159
And the interesting thing was that the actual amount that

801
00:45:25,199 --> 00:45:29,400
you're thinking during production is very low, like almost no

802
00:45:29,559 --> 00:45:34,039
brain activity at all when measured, whereas during practice there's

803
00:45:34,079 --> 00:45:37,000
a lot of thought that goes into it into that practice.

804
00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:38,679
Speaker 4: And I don't know if there's a direct.

805
00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:40,400
Speaker 5: Corollary here, but I mean it really made me think

806
00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:44,239
of this that maybe the engineering excellence is challenging how

807
00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:46,960
we're practicing day to day so that we're ready to

808
00:45:47,079 --> 00:45:48,840
do the actual production work.

809
00:45:49,239 --> 00:45:51,239
Speaker 4: And what does that even look like in the software

810
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:52,840
engineering domain.

811
00:45:54,039 --> 00:46:01,440
Speaker 2: I don't know that. I think you have the production right, yeah,

812
00:46:02,239 --> 00:46:04,840
but it's like the deploduct production button is such a thing.

813
00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:07,360
Can you do that? Calm me? Or can you only

814
00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:12,119
do that you know under stress? Right? And that the

815
00:46:12,239 --> 00:46:12,760
practice in.

816
00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:14,719
Speaker 4: This case, I mean, that's always stressful for.

817
00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:18,679
Speaker 2: Me, testing the automation, the error detection, the roullterback you have,

818
00:46:19,719 --> 00:46:23,079
but the actual the result is that you have come

819
00:46:23,199 --> 00:46:24,159
when you pushed it button.

820
00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:27,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's really that's a that's got that's got me

821
00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:32,920
thinking a lot Warren where it feels like in some circumstances,

822
00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:35,760
like our job, every day we're showing up to game

823
00:46:35,840 --> 00:46:37,599
day and there is no training time.

824
00:46:37,719 --> 00:46:38,119
Speaker 4: Doesn't it.

825
00:46:38,719 --> 00:46:41,679
Speaker 1: Yeah, So it's like, how and I'm thinking about that

826
00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:44,559
twofold like one, Yeah, it would be super cool to

827
00:46:44,639 --> 00:46:49,360
have training time too, just like at a very fundamental level,

828
00:46:50,239 --> 00:46:53,320
go do a test to compare E C S T

829
00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:54,599
e KS.

830
00:46:54,280 --> 00:46:55,039
Speaker 2: And like.

831
00:46:56,639 --> 00:46:59,719
Speaker 1: Get enough experience to have an informed opinion as to

832
00:46:59,800 --> 00:47:04,360
war or not. We should be making that migration between

833
00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:09,159
the two. But from a business perspective. From a business perspective,

834
00:47:09,639 --> 00:47:16,719
you know, do I want to fund my business in

835
00:47:16,840 --> 00:47:19,400
such a way so that my employees have time to

836
00:47:19,519 --> 00:47:22,440
go and do that stuff, or do I want them

837
00:47:23,199 --> 00:47:26,440
gain day every day? Like if I'm just purely focused

838
00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:29,760
on the numbers of my business, I want them I

839
00:47:29,840 --> 00:47:33,000
want every day to be game day, regardless of the

840
00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:37,199
implications on them for that. So there's like a there's

841
00:47:37,199 --> 00:47:38,840
a trade off there that I can't quite wrap my

842
00:47:38,880 --> 00:47:39,920
head around at the moment.

843
00:47:40,719 --> 00:47:44,480
Speaker 5: There was this joke, I don't know how based in reality.

844
00:47:44,519 --> 00:47:48,280
It was about a manager talking to the I don't

845
00:47:48,320 --> 00:47:51,199
know head of engineering saying, hey, you know, our engineers

846
00:47:51,239 --> 00:47:52,199
need to be trained better.

847
00:47:52,440 --> 00:47:54,159
Speaker 4: You know that takes a lot of money and effort

848
00:47:54,239 --> 00:47:57,840
and time. You know, can we just utilize them? What

849
00:47:57,920 --> 00:47:58,840
if they're not good enough?

850
00:47:58,920 --> 00:47:59,039
Speaker 3: Right?

851
00:47:59,079 --> 00:48:00,760
Speaker 4: You know what I mean, No one's perfect.

852
00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:03,159
Speaker 5: As we pointed out, they don't maximize the number of

853
00:48:03,199 --> 00:48:05,840
lines of code or business value, and so we do

854
00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:06,679
need to train them.

855
00:48:06,719 --> 00:48:08,400
Speaker 4: And the concern is what if we train them and

856
00:48:08,440 --> 00:48:08,840
they leave?

857
00:48:09,480 --> 00:48:11,960
Speaker 5: And the manager's response is what if we don't train

858
00:48:12,039 --> 00:48:19,880
them and they stay? Right, Marcus, you're gonna say.

859
00:48:19,800 --> 00:48:22,920
Speaker 2: Something absolutely, But I think, I mean, training is a

860
00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:28,599
hard one to really make. You know, there's some people

861
00:48:28,639 --> 00:48:34,239
who are just like embracing it, uh, and others it's

862
00:48:34,320 --> 00:48:35,840
just like hard. And also I see it in my

863
00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:38,159
daily schedule. It's really very hard to get it in.

864
00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:41,679
I mean, what works well for me is going running

865
00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:46,400
over lunch and listening into a podcast. That's one form

866
00:48:46,440 --> 00:48:48,679
of media consumption that works. And it's not just like

867
00:48:48,800 --> 00:48:51,679
the doom scrawling type of value, but it's actually you know,

868
00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:55,079
building up some some more thoughts and it's also have

869
00:48:55,199 --> 00:48:57,360
to space time there. But I think, you know, in

870
00:48:57,519 --> 00:49:00,519
terms of where you you might have been build is

871
00:49:00,599 --> 00:49:02,960
I think there is a space where it's just like

872
00:49:03,559 --> 00:49:08,519
there's constantly noise around a team. That's when you will

873
00:49:08,679 --> 00:49:11,920
potentially even management will come in and they typically send

874
00:49:12,199 --> 00:49:15,559
That's when the consultants show up, and when management shows

875
00:49:15,679 --> 00:49:18,840
up and you know, weird reporting and someone looks at

876
00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:21,880
how many metro crasts did they do yesterday, that's a

877
00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:25,719
really bad sign. That's when you have underinvested. I think

878
00:49:26,239 --> 00:49:29,719
there I'm talking to is already like, yes, you're bringing

879
00:49:29,800 --> 00:49:33,039
up the point. Does is it valuable to do this

880
00:49:33,280 --> 00:49:35,800
or not? Right? So we tried to sneak in those

881
00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:38,519
type of things at the side a little bit. I

882
00:49:38,599 --> 00:49:42,280
think there's certain things that are definitely of high value

883
00:49:42,400 --> 00:49:45,760
of you know, think of not having passwords or it's

884
00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:50,840
just like way simpler to manage, and it's also possible today.

885
00:49:50,960 --> 00:49:53,719
Five plus years ago it was very very hard to

886
00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:57,400
do and these days the systems have evolve. So I

887
00:49:57,440 --> 00:49:59,880
think this is again like adjusting to huries the world

888
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:03,360
today and you know, the world has just innovated AI

889
00:50:03,440 --> 00:50:05,480
in the last I don't know, it feels like cloud

890
00:50:05,480 --> 00:50:10,400
three days and there's this whole whole hype cycle. Yeah,

891
00:50:10,440 --> 00:50:13,360
the world is moving fairly fast, right, or you know

892
00:50:13,480 --> 00:50:16,320
the cloud didn't exist ten years ago, that's only a

893
00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:19,760
decade well, or you know, depending on what's the starting

894
00:50:19,800 --> 00:50:22,280
point of the cloud, that's probably IBM saying the cloud

895
00:50:22,320 --> 00:50:24,480
exists for the last forty years and their own world

896
00:50:25,360 --> 00:50:28,039
did this different definition of that. But it's really really

897
00:50:28,119 --> 00:50:34,199
moving fast, right and and not keeping up with that

898
00:50:34,760 --> 00:50:38,599
is I think it gets you into a situation where

899
00:50:38,679 --> 00:50:41,760
at some point a company might say, we need to

900
00:50:41,880 --> 00:50:47,599
stop and we need a year to overhaul our accounting infrastructure.

901
00:50:49,199 --> 00:50:51,000
And that's a really really hard job to do from

902
00:50:51,079 --> 00:50:54,280
a team perspective, from a moral perspective, from actually can

903
00:50:54,360 --> 00:50:57,639
you achieve that outcome? And you know, how can you

904
00:50:58,760 --> 00:51:01,079
keep the customers happy? And so I think this is

905
00:51:01,159 --> 00:51:05,599
the balance of that. Nevertheless, I think after that, even

906
00:51:05,639 --> 00:51:07,840
if you don't, if you say, okay, scale down on

907
00:51:08,039 --> 00:51:10,519
this bucket of making things better for the sake of

908
00:51:10,639 --> 00:51:15,760
making it better is I think as an engineer, you

909
00:51:15,920 --> 00:51:18,320
just want to have that. You want to have this drive,

910
00:51:18,480 --> 00:51:20,920
you want to show off. And I think this is

911
00:51:20,960 --> 00:51:23,840
also the opportunities that in the worlds have in corporations,

912
00:51:24,159 --> 00:51:28,760
no matter what role they have and what level it is,

913
00:51:28,840 --> 00:51:31,800
to showing off and saying I understand this technique, here's

914
00:51:31,840 --> 00:51:35,199
a documentation, and you know it might become the de

915
00:51:35,280 --> 00:51:37,559
factors standard how things are being done in the company

916
00:51:37,800 --> 00:51:40,480
because it comes with the context of the company. It

917
00:51:40,599 --> 00:51:43,239
comes with that. This is how we do deployments, this

918
00:51:43,400 --> 00:51:45,719
is how we run things, this is the responsibility. These

919
00:51:45,760 --> 00:51:48,000
are in the incentives. And if someone is able to

920
00:51:48,800 --> 00:51:52,960
document it in a way or to create a create

921
00:51:53,000 --> 00:51:55,639
some shared code that's easy to reuse and so on,

922
00:51:55,760 --> 00:52:00,119
I think that's really really powerful and allows also the

923
00:52:00,239 --> 00:52:02,639
junior engineers to shine. They might they might actually the

924
00:52:02,639 --> 00:52:06,039
biggest druggle for them might be to put it out

925
00:52:06,400 --> 00:52:09,719
into the world. Especially when it's an internal world. It's

926
00:52:09,719 --> 00:52:11,480
almost harder and putting out there in the world and

927
00:52:11,519 --> 00:52:14,440
nobody might see it, that's easy. But putting it out

928
00:52:14,559 --> 00:52:18,360
internally and you have an intelligent purpose for that, it's

929
00:52:18,400 --> 00:52:21,880
like you need you need some cheerleading from you know,

930
00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:26,719
the basically the directors of engineering or you know, your

931
00:52:26,760 --> 00:52:29,480
team lead to others to actually put it into a

932
00:52:29,559 --> 00:52:32,840
shape that is not going to annoy the others, but

933
00:52:32,920 --> 00:52:36,280
it's actually being appreciated. And that is really company and

934
00:52:36,880 --> 00:52:39,320
political context that you need to fully understand to make

935
00:52:39,360 --> 00:52:41,559
sure that you can do that. But it's I think

936
00:52:41,599 --> 00:52:45,000
it's a big opportunity for everyone, and especially for more

937
00:52:45,119 --> 00:52:48,320
junior or just like very technical savvy person who don't

938
00:52:48,320 --> 00:52:50,719
want to deal with that, but actually would be interesting

939
00:52:50,800 --> 00:52:55,440
to have that better excellence across all the teams and

940
00:52:55,519 --> 00:52:56,480
not just for themselves.

941
00:53:00,360 --> 00:53:03,880
Speaker 1: So is that part of your definition of engineering excellence

942
00:53:04,079 --> 00:53:10,679
is promoting promoting internal things within the teams and supporting

943
00:53:10,800 --> 00:53:17,039
them and like mandating that feedback loop to encourage excellence.

944
00:53:19,360 --> 00:53:22,760
Speaker 2: Not necessarily mandating, but this is what I encourage you

945
00:53:22,840 --> 00:53:31,519
to do this damage. Yeah, right, yeah, I think I

946
00:53:31,599 --> 00:53:34,280
think I ut put that in and here we go.

947
00:53:34,440 --> 00:53:36,440
Letten to the excellence part to go more into how

948
00:53:36,480 --> 00:53:38,159
do you manage the people and how do you grow

949
00:53:38,239 --> 00:53:43,039
the people? Is I want to encourage everyone on the

950
00:53:43,199 --> 00:53:49,079
opportunities are endless, and yes, day to day this hard

951
00:53:49,480 --> 00:53:51,840
first to identify the right thing for the right person

952
00:53:51,960 --> 00:53:54,320
and so on, but like just simply the topics that

953
00:53:54,440 --> 00:53:57,519
are on my plate. It's around security, it's about infrastructure.

954
00:53:57,559 --> 00:53:59,920
It's about front and parts, it's about back in parts.

955
00:54:00,480 --> 00:54:04,039
It's about you know, potentially libraries, it's about upgrades, about

956
00:54:04,079 --> 00:54:08,519
deployment techniques. It's about challenging how we do run things

957
00:54:08,519 --> 00:54:10,800
in the cloud. It might be a SaaS provided you're

958
00:54:10,880 --> 00:54:13,760
using and oh be using that suboptimal and so on.

959
00:54:14,239 --> 00:54:16,880
It is endless, and I think as you're an engineer.

960
00:54:17,000 --> 00:54:19,360
You are seeing these things and I'm here, I'm not

961
00:54:19,480 --> 00:54:21,280
even talking about the bugs you're seeing in your own

962
00:54:21,360 --> 00:54:24,639
system and the and the error reports and other things. Right,

963
00:54:24,679 --> 00:54:27,119
this is another part where you hopefully, hopefully that's your

964
00:54:27,119 --> 00:54:30,239
first home. We'll just try make sure that the customers

965
00:54:30,280 --> 00:54:32,519
are happy. Right, That's that's the first part where you

966
00:54:32,639 --> 00:54:35,760
want to use the the data in terms of oh,

967
00:54:36,039 --> 00:54:41,280
we had forty seven errors in this timeframe, we should

968
00:54:41,320 --> 00:54:44,880
probably bring it down or no, this is really kind

969
00:54:44,920 --> 00:54:48,280
of the maximum. How we like we just decided in

970
00:54:48,360 --> 00:54:51,239
the team with with you know, senior input to know

971
00:54:51,400 --> 00:54:53,679
this this this is good. Right, this is really world

972
00:54:53,679 --> 00:54:57,079
class where you can be. But then all the other

973
00:54:57,239 --> 00:55:01,320
topics it is just as you and you will be

974
00:55:01,400 --> 00:55:03,639
welcome because a lot of those topics might not be

975
00:55:04,159 --> 00:55:08,800
so passionately done by many much best female as an

976
00:55:08,880 --> 00:55:12,360
admin task or I do the minimum versus those are

977
00:55:12,400 --> 00:55:15,119
really unbound and you can have an impact that is

978
00:55:15,239 --> 00:55:19,960
way across teams, way outside of your sphere of directly

979
00:55:20,000 --> 00:55:22,159
influencing day to day. So it's both in the day

980
00:55:22,199 --> 00:55:24,239
to day and how do you make yourself and your

981
00:55:24,239 --> 00:55:26,840
team better and your softly you're directly supporting, as well

982
00:55:26,880 --> 00:55:29,639
as the opportunity out there of if you do things

983
00:55:29,639 --> 00:55:34,480
slightly more generic, share it slightly further, or you know,

984
00:55:34,679 --> 00:55:37,199
raise your arm on you know, becoming you know, the

985
00:55:37,280 --> 00:55:40,079
security expert in your team, and you'll learn all that,

986
00:55:40,239 --> 00:55:42,239
and then you start looking at the data yourself and

987
00:55:42,320 --> 00:55:44,519
to start crashing why are you doing it this way?

988
00:55:44,880 --> 00:55:47,519
Start improving it into your own team, then starting sharing, Hey,

989
00:55:47,559 --> 00:55:50,119
this is what it is. Those are the three steps.

990
00:55:50,159 --> 00:55:53,599
It's that easy, Like, oh, once it's easy, others will

991
00:55:53,639 --> 00:55:57,480
also do it. Versus this neverless thing of you know,

992
00:55:59,199 --> 00:56:03,360
we might need to invest some technical spike time at

993
00:56:03,440 --> 00:56:05,400
some point and it's in the backlog or the back

994
00:56:05,440 --> 00:56:07,480
of our minds of people and it's never getting to

995
00:56:07,679 --> 00:56:11,719
versus simplifying it, paving the path so others can just

996
00:56:11,880 --> 00:56:14,920
walk it, and then hopefully if they're paved path, you're

997
00:56:14,920 --> 00:56:17,320
not trying to reinvent the bill. You're just walking there

998
00:56:17,400 --> 00:56:20,599
because you trust your colleagues. And the combination of those

999
00:56:20,639 --> 00:56:23,079
also like appreciating this is one way of doing it

1000
00:56:23,400 --> 00:56:26,039
might not be the perfect way, but it helps you accelerate.

1001
00:56:26,199 --> 00:56:29,000
So it's both ways. It's not only sharing, it's also

1002
00:56:29,079 --> 00:56:29,800
taking what's there.

1003
00:56:31,119 --> 00:56:31,679
Speaker 4: It's weird.

1004
00:56:31,840 --> 00:56:35,559
Speaker 5: I think that we put so much emphasis on needing

1005
00:56:35,639 --> 00:56:38,880
to train up sort of inexperienced or junior engineers, but

1006
00:56:39,000 --> 00:56:43,000
then when it comes to the teams as a whole

1007
00:56:43,280 --> 00:56:46,400
or more senior engineers, I think there's a tendency to

1008
00:56:46,480 --> 00:56:50,599
forget that there's an opportunity there to spend time actually

1009
00:56:50,679 --> 00:56:53,440
reviewing what we're doing and like how we're working or

1010
00:56:53,559 --> 00:56:56,960
how we're doing it effectively, even at an individual level.

1011
00:56:58,079 --> 00:56:59,880
And I'm not really sure where that comes from. Maybe

1012
00:57:00,039 --> 00:57:02,639
it's like once you reach senior engineer like that's it.

1013
00:57:02,719 --> 00:57:05,360
You know, companies like that's it. You know you're as

1014
00:57:05,400 --> 00:57:07,920
successful as you need to be for us, and junior

1015
00:57:07,960 --> 00:57:10,639
engineers as long as you learn our systems, you're as

1016
00:57:10,639 --> 00:57:12,840
successful as you need to be for us. But there

1017
00:57:12,920 --> 00:57:16,719
is still that learning aspect there, and I'm wondering if

1018
00:57:16,760 --> 00:57:19,840
it's enough to just say, spend take thirty percent of

1019
00:57:19,920 --> 00:57:22,840
your time to learn new things, to listen to the

1020
00:57:22,920 --> 00:57:27,119
Adventures in DevOps podcast, or you know, use new technologies

1021
00:57:27,159 --> 00:57:30,039
and new UI frameworks, or whether or not there's something

1022
00:57:30,159 --> 00:57:33,400
that we need to directly encourage to make that happen effectively.

1023
00:57:35,400 --> 00:57:37,800
Speaker 1: I think it has to be a much more active role,

1024
00:57:38,079 --> 00:57:43,960
because it's far too easy for individuals, especially junior individuals,

1025
00:57:44,480 --> 00:57:48,599
to see tickets in their backlog or work that's assigned

1026
00:57:48,639 --> 00:57:54,599
to them and prioritize that over learning and education. Even

1027
00:57:54,679 --> 00:57:58,320
whenever we say, hey, you should be spending time on

1028
00:57:58,480 --> 00:58:01,920
learning and education, I don't think you can take a

1029
00:58:02,039 --> 00:58:05,239
passive role in just telling them that and then assuming

1030
00:58:05,320 --> 00:58:07,119
that they're doing it. I think it's something that you

1031
00:58:07,280 --> 00:58:11,199
have to actively manage and track. Whether that's you know,

1032
00:58:11,599 --> 00:58:14,519
telling them, hey, open a ticket and log your time

1033
00:58:14,960 --> 00:58:19,000
when you're listening to the podcast or you know, or

1034
00:58:19,239 --> 00:58:21,280
whatever the metric is. I think it has to be

1035
00:58:21,360 --> 00:58:25,079
something that's that's active and measurable.

1036
00:58:25,880 --> 00:58:28,400
Speaker 5: I mean, they're not actually gonna know either, right Like

1037
00:58:28,559 --> 00:58:30,840
they're in a you're in a spot, your team is

1038
00:58:30,840 --> 00:58:32,760
in a spot where even if you said, hey, you know,

1039
00:58:32,920 --> 00:58:34,679
spend a lot of your time on this, like what

1040
00:58:34,880 --> 00:58:37,199
is the right activities that you should be doing or

1041
00:58:37,440 --> 00:58:38,960
the right knowledge you should be gaining?

1042
00:58:39,480 --> 00:58:39,599
Speaker 2: Uh?

1043
00:58:39,760 --> 00:58:41,639
Speaker 5: And maybe that's why we I think as an industry,

1044
00:58:41,719 --> 00:58:44,599
we fall back into like watch these YouTube videos or

1045
00:58:45,320 --> 00:58:48,559
go to some conferences as if that's you know, the

1046
00:58:48,760 --> 00:58:51,639
right way to just automatically make this happen. But I

1047
00:58:51,679 --> 00:58:53,599
feel like that maybe even a little bit too passive

1048
00:58:53,639 --> 00:58:55,639
as well. Right, you know, there's a lot of information

1049
00:58:55,760 --> 00:59:00,280
floating around that doesn't necessarily convert into actual con crete

1050
00:59:00,400 --> 00:59:02,360
learning that can be applied back into what we're doing

1051
00:59:02,440 --> 00:59:02,840
day to day.

1052
00:59:03,480 --> 00:59:04,079
Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure.

1053
00:59:04,159 --> 00:59:06,559
Speaker 1: I think from my perspective, like whenever I first started

1054
00:59:06,599 --> 00:59:08,480
going to conferences, I was like, oh my god, this

1055
00:59:08,639 --> 00:59:09,320
is going to be amazing.

1056
00:59:09,360 --> 00:59:10,320
Speaker 3: I'm going to learn so much.

1057
00:59:10,440 --> 00:59:13,480
Speaker 1: And now I look at conferences as a way to

1058
00:59:14,519 --> 00:59:18,000
completely screw up my inbox where I'll never get a

1059
00:59:18,079 --> 00:59:20,480
valid email again because of all the mailing lists I

1060
00:59:20,519 --> 00:59:23,000
get subscribed to by going to the conference.

1061
00:59:23,519 --> 00:59:26,480
Speaker 5: Minor LinkedIn connections are totally like I just got back

1062
00:59:26,960 --> 00:59:30,400
from Germany last week, and like, I don't know who

1063
00:59:30,440 --> 00:59:32,480
these people are that are connected with me.

1064
00:59:32,639 --> 00:59:34,239
Speaker 4: Like I try to, you know, approve all of them,

1065
00:59:34,320 --> 00:59:36,360
and I'm like, I don't remember you. I'm sorry.

1066
00:59:38,440 --> 00:59:40,559
Speaker 5: Sure I did learn something though, as a speaker, I

1067
00:59:40,599 --> 00:59:43,760
actually learned something really interesting, and that's it amazes me

1068
00:59:44,039 --> 00:59:49,440
how many companies have on premise data centers or they're

1069
00:59:49,480 --> 00:59:52,559
renting a data center from a third party provider where

1070
00:59:52,559 --> 00:59:55,119
they're pretty much getting bare metal that they're putting stuff on,

1071
00:59:55,280 --> 00:59:57,599
and they don't have a need for this, like they're

1072
00:59:57,679 --> 00:59:58,079
not at a.

1073
00:59:58,119 --> 01:00:01,760
Speaker 4: Level or scale or industry that requires it.

1074
01:00:01,960 --> 01:00:05,559
Speaker 5: It's really quite amazing that there's just still so many

1075
01:00:05,639 --> 01:00:07,760
in this field, and I wonder if it's a lack

1076
01:00:07,800 --> 01:00:10,599
of engineering excellence that has left them there.

1077
01:00:12,280 --> 01:00:14,199
Speaker 2: Is the thing, right, right?

1078
01:00:14,440 --> 01:00:18,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think there's been a resurgence in going to

1079
01:00:18,400 --> 01:00:22,960
the data center over the last few years, and I've

1080
01:00:23,239 --> 01:00:27,480
known quite a few people who are using the cost

1081
01:00:27,599 --> 01:00:32,400
of AWS and GCP as the driver for that, But

1082
01:00:33,679 --> 01:00:40,199
I'm not convenient completely convinced on that. For like, if

1083
01:00:40,239 --> 01:00:44,440
you know what your workload is and it's pretty consistent

1084
01:00:44,840 --> 01:00:48,840
and well defined, I think if you had a good

1085
01:00:48,960 --> 01:00:52,280
data center provider that could send someone out to swap

1086
01:00:52,360 --> 01:00:56,159
failed hard drives and replaced nick cards.

1087
01:00:55,840 --> 01:00:58,639
Speaker 3: And all that kind of stuff, it might work. But

1088
01:01:00,000 --> 01:01:02,159
I don't know. That's I mean a lot of faith

1089
01:01:03,360 --> 01:01:03,880
and there.

1090
01:01:05,079 --> 01:01:05,599
Speaker 4: I mean for sure.

1091
01:01:05,639 --> 01:01:07,599
Speaker 5: I mean you're in an interesting area though, Will, because

1092
01:01:07,679 --> 01:01:09,400
like I feel like you deal with a lot of

1093
01:01:09,480 --> 01:01:13,400
companies at Polagon that are in this weird domain that

1094
01:01:13,519 --> 01:01:19,599
aren't necessarily cloud cloudish public cloudish optimized, right I mean

1095
01:01:19,639 --> 01:01:23,880
consensus networks and cryptocurrency companies, et cetera.

1096
01:01:24,000 --> 01:01:26,360
Speaker 4: Like I get that, but there are just so many like.

1097
01:01:28,000 --> 01:01:30,559
Speaker 5: Companies out there that are startups or even larger companies

1098
01:01:30,599 --> 01:01:35,039
that are spending sixty million plus dollars euros francs a year.

1099
01:01:36,039 --> 01:01:38,719
Speaker 4: Who thinks there are a benefit there? Marcus, you we're

1100
01:01:38,760 --> 01:01:39,639
going to say something.

1101
01:01:40,920 --> 01:01:43,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think, I think you. It's a nice segue

1102
01:01:44,000 --> 01:01:46,559
to one of the thoughts I haven't. And I was

1103
01:01:46,599 --> 01:01:49,000
talking about, Hey, there's this baseline, but then comes to

1104
01:01:49,079 --> 01:01:52,159
innovation in it, and innovation is a lot of different things,

1105
01:01:52,239 --> 01:01:54,760
Like we talked about education, we talked about you know,

1106
01:01:55,639 --> 01:01:58,679
you know, figuring out and taking on additional responsibilitiness on

1107
01:01:59,039 --> 01:02:02,239
But one of those odds that have is basically, and

1108
01:02:02,480 --> 01:02:05,679
it comes exactly where it's, oh my god, cloud is

1109
01:02:05,719 --> 01:02:10,039
so Expensive's cost per compute is kind of a term

1110
01:02:10,119 --> 01:02:12,679
that I came up and made up myself, but it's like,

1111
01:02:13,039 --> 01:02:16,519
what's the cost you're spending for the compute you're using?

1112
01:02:18,440 --> 01:02:24,039
And you know, basically, even in the cloud, you run

1113
01:02:24,199 --> 01:02:28,480
things on a virtual machine. By definition, you don't want

1114
01:02:28,519 --> 01:02:30,679
this to be more than ten or twenty percent CPU,

1115
01:02:30,760 --> 01:02:32,280
and you want to have at least I don't know,

1116
01:02:32,320 --> 01:02:36,760
fifty percent memory free. So you're paying paying the money

1117
01:02:36,800 --> 01:02:38,719
what you should have in your pocket, and you do

1118
01:02:38,880 --> 01:02:44,000
your team's bonuses into the bonuses of the cloud providers. Right.

1119
01:02:44,800 --> 01:02:48,079
This is they're charging for CPU which they are actually

1120
01:02:48,199 --> 01:02:51,480
not using. It's all these shared hosting environments. So that's

1121
01:02:51,559 --> 01:02:56,280
their game, right, and that's their margin. And yet it

1122
01:02:56,400 --> 01:02:59,920
is relatively attractive. So I think this is also very

1123
01:03:00,159 --> 01:03:02,840
this innovation comes in. So how do you actually bring

1124
01:03:04,920 --> 01:03:07,599
I think if you optimize cost per compute, so not

1125
01:03:07,760 --> 01:03:10,320
purely cost, because purely cost of organization is just like

1126
01:03:10,400 --> 01:03:14,280
turn everything off and you're done right of the business.

1127
01:03:14,519 --> 01:03:18,480
You will never ever have costs again. And I think

1128
01:03:18,519 --> 01:03:21,440
the alternative if it's just like run everything on AWS,

1129
01:03:21,559 --> 01:03:25,599
LANDA or whatever your serverlized function is, might also not

1130
01:03:25,760 --> 01:03:29,679
be the answer. That also doesn't say you cannot use

1131
01:03:29,920 --> 01:03:32,840
relation database. You must use down B or Mango, the

1132
01:03:32,880 --> 01:03:37,039
B or whatever it might be. It comes way more nuanced,

1133
01:03:37,119 --> 01:03:40,519
but cenarly, if you look at your cloud spend, cloud

1134
01:03:40,519 --> 01:03:42,800
spend is very easy because you get your statistics over

1135
01:03:42,920 --> 01:03:45,679
time and everything. You can analyze and tag things and sounds,

1136
01:03:45,719 --> 01:03:49,880
so it's quite you can have this this engineering hard

1137
01:03:50,000 --> 01:03:52,000
and start with the data and be data driven. Just

1138
01:03:52,079 --> 01:03:54,679
trying to iterate there. But look at the top five.

1139
01:03:55,159 --> 01:04:01,679
They're probably consuming fifty eight percent of of your money. Right.

1140
01:04:01,920 --> 01:04:04,679
Some of that is justified because that's actually the workload

1141
01:04:04,719 --> 01:04:07,840
that's running there. Others such just like wait a bit,

1142
01:04:09,000 --> 01:04:12,679
you know it's waiting. It's it's mostly the margin on

1143
01:04:13,679 --> 01:04:19,199
over provisioning. This is you know, relation databases you need.

1144
01:04:19,559 --> 01:04:22,400
There's no way to scale up and scale down at

1145
01:04:22,519 --> 01:04:24,519
least not you know, there is a way hope. By

1146
01:04:24,559 --> 01:04:26,559
the way, we have a peak season for two months,

1147
01:04:26,599 --> 01:04:28,920
so we scale up for the next instant and scale

1148
01:04:28,960 --> 01:04:32,440
down again or increase the distance. So slow moving scalability

1149
01:04:32,559 --> 01:04:35,320
can do. But those even during the days are very

1150
01:04:35,360 --> 01:04:38,840
hard to do and if it's more spiky, almost impossible

1151
01:04:38,880 --> 01:04:44,599
to do. But you're paying for your for your risk.

1152
01:04:44,679 --> 01:04:46,960
And got feeling a little bit almost like I mean,

1153
01:04:47,000 --> 01:04:49,480
obviously hopefully you look at data, look at some requests

1154
01:04:49,480 --> 01:04:52,159
died some low testing and everything, but like, yeah, there

1155
01:04:52,239 --> 01:04:54,400
might be this one customer coming along and put some

1156
01:04:54,519 --> 01:04:56,360
load on it. It's like I want to be prepared

1157
01:04:56,360 --> 01:04:59,519
for that, right, and you need to be prepared as

1158
01:04:59,519 --> 01:05:01,960
a business for that, and you need to be over

1159
01:05:02,079 --> 01:05:08,039
provisioned versus the more you go to basically really pay

1160
01:05:08,119 --> 01:05:13,000
per use. If there's nobody coming, it's zero cost. If

1161
01:05:13,039 --> 01:05:15,960
someone is coming, when you pay what you use. This

1162
01:05:16,119 --> 01:05:18,599
again has at some point it has a limit, and

1163
01:05:18,719 --> 01:05:22,840
it might be do my own thing is cheaper, right,

1164
01:05:22,960 --> 01:05:27,199
So at some point, you know, running certain things on

1165
01:05:27,280 --> 01:05:30,440
a huge scale is a central team that's expertise there

1166
01:05:30,719 --> 01:05:35,039
might be the better thing for some companies or running

1167
01:05:35,079 --> 01:05:36,960
again back to bear Metal, I mean there's just a

1168
01:05:37,000 --> 01:05:38,440
little bit of a hype of all we run this

1169
01:05:38,519 --> 01:05:41,320
thing on bear Metal. There are those workloads, but they

1170
01:05:41,400 --> 01:05:43,800
typically don't come from a startup. They don't come from

1171
01:05:44,159 --> 01:05:47,079
you know, smallish two pizza sized teams running their own thing,

1172
01:05:47,559 --> 01:05:50,320
even if they have a lot of requests. Those recreess

1173
01:05:50,400 --> 01:05:55,960
are typically you know, request then do some processing, call

1174
01:05:56,000 --> 01:06:00,280
of database, return the thing. And and like I think

1175
01:06:00,440 --> 01:06:03,199
cost per compute is a nice proxy to say, do

1176
01:06:03,320 --> 01:06:06,679
I have a spot where my top five or top

1177
01:06:06,760 --> 01:06:11,199
three things? And that's just looking at the pure costs,

1178
01:06:11,280 --> 01:06:13,159
right there comes to operational costs and other things that

1179
01:06:13,239 --> 01:06:15,519
you need to encounter. But at least this is hard data.

1180
01:06:15,559 --> 01:06:18,639
What you can look at and trying to optimize for

1181
01:06:18,760 --> 01:06:21,079
that and some point I'm good, Now I feel like

1182
01:06:21,920 --> 01:06:24,679
the costs spent these lum and I think, you know

1183
01:06:24,719 --> 01:06:26,920
a lot of companies might not have done that or

1184
01:06:27,000 --> 01:06:29,840
might not have incentivized the team, and so oh my

1185
01:06:29,960 --> 01:06:34,280
cloud costs are so expensive. But then you know, really

1186
01:06:34,400 --> 01:06:37,920
running that very same workload, it's the very same properties.

1187
01:06:38,280 --> 01:06:41,400
People can just spin up things and other things. You

1188
01:06:41,559 --> 01:06:45,679
paint that on the rack. Now, I mean community serves

1189
01:06:45,719 --> 01:06:48,000
need to have in there to actually have for those spikes,

1190
01:06:48,000 --> 01:06:50,760
because like scaling up and down doesn't make sense anymore.

1191
01:06:51,519 --> 01:06:54,079
Just like put it on full load and that's what

1192
01:06:54,239 --> 01:06:56,159
you're what you're you're having in there.

1193
01:06:57,199 --> 01:06:59,440
Speaker 5: I think there's some inspiration from the web three space

1194
01:06:59,639 --> 01:07:03,000
that sort of coin the term gas fee, right, the

1195
01:07:03,239 --> 01:07:07,639
the actual cost of that execution compute to the line

1196
01:07:07,800 --> 01:07:11,599
of execution for per instruction. I don't I don't know

1197
01:07:11,679 --> 01:07:13,440
what that means, but I mean, I think there is

1198
01:07:13,480 --> 01:07:15,840
an interesting aspect here where when we deal with the

1199
01:07:15,920 --> 01:07:20,000
physical goods and we have a capital expenditure, you buy

1200
01:07:20,079 --> 01:07:22,800
a thing and then you depreciate the value over time

1201
01:07:22,880 --> 01:07:25,400
because the metal rusts or the components get out of

1202
01:07:25,480 --> 01:07:28,639
date or you know, whatever it is about those, however

1203
01:07:28,679 --> 01:07:30,320
it's manufactured or being consumed.

1204
01:07:31,280 --> 01:07:34,960
Speaker 4: We sort of lost that as we switch to from

1205
01:07:35,119 --> 01:07:36,199
capital or cap.

1206
01:07:36,280 --> 01:07:39,599
Speaker 5: X expenditures to operational expenditures, which I think we're rewarded

1207
01:07:39,639 --> 01:07:42,760
for having. Hey, you know, don't upfront by this, because

1208
01:07:42,800 --> 01:07:44,719
there's you know, it's going to depreciate over time. You know,

1209
01:07:44,840 --> 01:07:46,880
take a car for instance, you buy a car, it

1210
01:07:47,000 --> 01:07:49,280
gets worse over time, It's worth nothing after you drive

1211
01:07:49,320 --> 01:07:51,079
it off for the lot, and then you drive for

1212
01:07:51,119 --> 01:07:53,760
another ten years and then it rusts and it's gone right.

1213
01:07:54,000 --> 01:07:56,039
Whereas you know, if you're renting the car, you always

1214
01:07:56,039 --> 01:07:58,519
get the newest, latest version, and if you never drive anywhere,

1215
01:07:58,800 --> 01:08:02,000
then it's you don't pay anything, you know, conceivably. But

1216
01:08:02,039 --> 01:08:03,800
I feel like there is a middle ground here where

1217
01:08:03,800 --> 01:08:06,039
a lot of companies end up in and they forget that,

1218
01:08:06,239 --> 01:08:08,199
even things like easy Too or Kubernetes.

1219
01:08:08,239 --> 01:08:10,679
Speaker 4: There there is a capital expenditure.

1220
01:08:10,960 --> 01:08:14,159
Speaker 5: It's just not on the bar metal, it's not on

1221
01:08:14,480 --> 01:08:17,399
the virtual machine potentially, it's it's this other aspect. You know,

1222
01:08:17,479 --> 01:08:20,560
it's slightly higher. It's not all all backs or all

1223
01:08:20,640 --> 01:08:23,319
cap backs, but somewhere in between and because we've gotten

1224
01:08:23,319 --> 01:08:25,720
away from that. I feel like we've lost people paying

1225
01:08:25,760 --> 01:08:30,800
attention to how much we're actually expending on the part

1226
01:08:30,880 --> 01:08:34,600
that's not fully operational, that that's fully Like you said,

1227
01:08:34,640 --> 01:08:36,880
the total cost of ownership is one aspect to pull

1228
01:08:36,960 --> 01:08:38,399
on here. And I mean, I don't know if there's

1229
01:08:38,399 --> 01:08:41,960
a question here, just sort of an interesting tangent.

1230
01:08:42,079 --> 01:08:43,479
Speaker 4: I guess no.

1231
01:08:43,800 --> 01:08:46,399
Speaker 2: I think you know, just paying one thousand dollars every

1232
01:08:46,479 --> 01:08:51,079
month is yeah, relatively easy to understand and beta, wait,

1233
01:08:51,159 --> 01:08:54,319
this is what my business costs versus every three years

1234
01:08:54,479 --> 01:08:56,800
paying thirty thousand, fifty thousands, Like, wait a bit, I'm

1235
01:08:56,840 --> 01:09:00,159
not spending that money, right, there's projects undying on just

1236
01:09:00,239 --> 01:09:02,600
like trying to do that, right, that's just like the

1237
01:09:02,680 --> 01:09:04,359
small numbers now, but now, and I think you of

1238
01:09:04,520 --> 01:09:06,960
not using one thousand but using a million, right, A

1239
01:09:07,079 --> 01:09:09,359
million a month is one thing to pay, but then

1240
01:09:10,439 --> 01:09:15,119
have this fifty million dollar built every three four years

1241
01:09:15,960 --> 01:09:19,439
is a different type of discussion. And and I think

1242
01:09:19,600 --> 01:09:22,800
this is as you're optimizing the cost, you're not bringing

1243
01:09:22,880 --> 01:09:25,560
the cost down by ten dollars, one hundred dollars, one

1244
01:09:25,560 --> 01:09:28,239
thousand dollars, ten thousand dollars, whatever your workload might be

1245
01:09:28,960 --> 01:09:33,000
you're bringing that down multiplied by I just multiply the

1246
01:09:33,119 --> 01:09:35,319
to a year, right and look at the yearly cost, right,

1247
01:09:35,359 --> 01:09:37,439
because at some point, you know, things change so much

1248
01:09:37,520 --> 01:09:39,880
that it's very hard to for long over the long term.

1249
01:09:42,560 --> 01:09:46,119
I think it's probably basic finance here, but also it's

1250
01:09:46,159 --> 01:09:50,600
important that numbers team members understand, like, no, you're not

1251
01:09:50,720 --> 01:09:54,760
bringing down this workload. You know, fixing a bug for

1252
01:09:54,920 --> 01:09:57,159
one user. No, you're fixing a bug for one user

1253
01:09:57,279 --> 01:09:59,359
day which is tween a sixty five users a year,

1254
01:09:59,800 --> 01:10:02,439
or you buy I don't know whatever it is, and

1255
01:10:02,600 --> 01:10:05,079
it's like, no, this is This is a little bit

1256
01:10:05,119 --> 01:10:08,439
where capital investment in terms of software engineering comes in.

1257
01:10:09,039 --> 01:10:10,800
And you know, some of that is on a product side,

1258
01:10:10,840 --> 01:10:12,760
but I would argue some of that is on engineering

1259
01:10:12,840 --> 01:10:15,399
side of saying if we fix these three things, that's

1260
01:10:15,439 --> 01:10:18,920
the impact you have to the customers, to the business,

1261
01:10:19,079 --> 01:10:24,680
to the cost to whatever. And that's you know, if

1262
01:10:24,720 --> 01:10:28,840
you invest an hour, now like you can basically count

1263
01:10:29,159 --> 01:10:31,199
how many days or how many weeks it takes until

1264
01:10:31,239 --> 01:10:33,359
the return of investment is There are very simple things

1265
01:10:33,399 --> 01:10:36,000
and there's very more complicated models. But like get the

1266
01:10:36,039 --> 01:10:40,720
back of the Napkain calculation into everyone's head, like just like, yeah,

1267
01:10:40,800 --> 01:10:42,840
make those decisions based on that. And if you're really

1268
01:10:42,880 --> 01:10:47,159
good at this type of investing your time where there

1269
01:10:47,359 --> 01:10:50,439
is a return, and preferably return is on better customer

1270
01:10:50,479 --> 01:10:53,840
service and better customer value because that really feels your business, right,

1271
01:10:53,920 --> 01:10:57,479
So like old engineering excellence aside, but where you can

1272
01:10:57,640 --> 01:11:02,119
invest and you know, prove improved things from an engineering side.

1273
01:11:02,319 --> 01:11:05,520
And it has also either direct so sometimes it's indirection.

1274
01:11:05,800 --> 01:11:07,760
How do you measure downtime? Right? If the team was

1275
01:11:08,039 --> 01:11:10,800
down once and once a month is pretty bad, right, Uh,

1276
01:11:11,239 --> 01:11:14,000
all of a sudden it's not down anymore. It's probably

1277
01:11:14,039 --> 01:11:16,520
a good thing that happened. I don't know X months

1278
01:11:16,560 --> 01:11:19,800
in the past, but it probably didn't happen or the

1279
01:11:20,000 --> 01:11:23,760
work change incidentally, right, it probably happened because someone's yeah,

1280
01:11:23,840 --> 01:11:24,800
right the thing.

1281
01:11:26,720 --> 01:11:27,079
Speaker 3: Mm hmm.

1282
01:11:27,680 --> 01:11:30,039
Speaker 5: I mean, I you come for the engineering excellence and

1283
01:11:30,159 --> 01:11:33,760
get the uh you know x maybe startup entrepreneur here

1284
01:11:33,880 --> 01:11:36,479
giving you financial advice on how to run your cloud.

1285
01:11:36,680 --> 01:11:38,640
Speaker 4: I mean, I I love the topic. I feel I

1286
01:11:38,760 --> 01:11:42,880
fear it's a it's another whole hour, uh which you're

1287
01:11:42,880 --> 01:11:47,680
going off which no, I mean it's super interesting. I

1288
01:11:47,760 --> 01:11:49,840
mean I I I really love the idea.

1289
01:11:49,880 --> 01:11:52,000
Speaker 5: I actually, you know, I'm hoping maybe we can find

1290
01:11:52,039 --> 01:11:55,199
someone to come on to actually uh discuss that in detail,

1291
01:11:55,279 --> 01:11:57,880
because I think there's, as you pointed out, really interesting

1292
01:11:58,000 --> 01:12:02,560
overlap with uh, the complexity of managing cloud resources or

1293
01:12:03,840 --> 01:12:05,119
I'm sorry, if you're on prem.

1294
01:12:09,520 --> 01:12:11,720
Speaker 1: If they're on prem, they'd never heard the podcast because

1295
01:12:11,720 --> 01:12:14,720
they're crawling underneath the floor running network cables or something.

1296
01:12:17,880 --> 01:12:20,680
Actually I am curious about that's if that's still a thing,

1297
01:12:20,880 --> 01:12:23,520
like if you are running on prem, are you still

1298
01:12:24,199 --> 01:12:26,159
for people who are running on prem or they still

1299
01:12:26,880 --> 01:12:29,039
jumping in the car driving out to the data center

1300
01:12:29,960 --> 01:12:32,239
swapping hard drives, racking servers.

1301
01:12:33,600 --> 01:12:35,319
Speaker 4: I mean, I can imagine it's a separate job.

1302
01:12:36,000 --> 01:12:38,560
Speaker 5: And there are the third party bare metal providers out

1303
01:12:38,600 --> 01:12:40,760
there that are trying to sell that. So I think

1304
01:12:40,920 --> 01:12:44,479
something that the even larger cloud providers offer or how

1305
01:12:44,520 --> 01:12:48,199
they work is they end up renting like locked in

1306
01:12:48,479 --> 01:12:50,520
space inside physical buildings that.

1307
01:12:50,600 --> 01:12:52,720
Speaker 4: Are called cages that you can't get in.

1308
01:12:52,920 --> 01:12:56,000
Speaker 5: So who's doing that activity though, I'm that is a

1309
01:12:56,039 --> 01:12:57,880
good question, right, I mean, because you don't want the

1310
01:12:58,199 --> 01:13:02,000
data center owner to be accessing your physical machines and

1311
01:13:02,039 --> 01:13:04,760
you know, pulling out the HSM that you've got installed there,

1312
01:13:04,920 --> 01:13:08,720
like that's that's a security vulnerability. So you've got to

1313
01:13:08,760 --> 01:13:11,880
have your own operation engineers that you're employing to perform

1314
01:13:11,960 --> 01:13:14,000
that activity. Otherwise, you know, you might as well be

1315
01:13:14,159 --> 01:13:17,279
using a public cloud. But you know, if someone knows,

1316
01:13:17,359 --> 01:13:20,399
I think they should ping us on discord and actually,

1317
01:13:20,680 --> 01:13:22,680
you know, give us a topic of conversation here. I

1318
01:13:22,720 --> 01:13:26,000
think that'd be super interesting to have someone with an

1319
01:13:26,039 --> 01:13:29,600
expertise in on premise data center management.

1320
01:13:30,119 --> 01:13:32,600
Speaker 3: Oh absolutely, I'm one hundred percent on that one.

1321
01:13:34,640 --> 01:13:37,319
Speaker 2: I think that woo especially interesting for those that are

1322
01:13:37,840 --> 01:13:41,960
you know, medium company size, not those very big players.

1323
01:13:42,000 --> 01:13:44,680
They might have other economics and other reasons to do.

1324
01:13:44,760 --> 01:13:45,399
Speaker 4: That, yeah for sure.

1325
01:13:45,840 --> 01:13:48,159
Speaker 2: Also not those who have to do it for compliant reasons,

1326
01:13:48,199 --> 01:13:50,720
because they're because it's the thing and that's the reason

1327
01:13:50,720 --> 01:13:53,800
why we do it. But really, like you know, those

1328
01:13:53,880 --> 01:13:56,439
have a decent engineering team, but those are not super

1329
01:13:56,560 --> 01:13:58,359
so so I think a lot of people could actually

1330
01:13:58,439 --> 01:14:01,640
relate and so, so, yes, would be a fantastic topic.

1331
01:14:04,119 --> 01:14:07,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would like to have somebody from well, yeah,

1332
01:14:07,439 --> 01:14:11,800
because there's the email provider hey dot com that was

1333
01:14:12,239 --> 01:14:15,319
started by I don't remember what his full name is.

1334
01:14:15,399 --> 01:14:18,000
He goes by the initials Dha. She's like the founder

1335
01:14:18,039 --> 01:14:22,239
of Rubion Rails or something. But they have left the

1336
01:14:22,359 --> 01:14:26,840
cloud completely operate all their own physical hardware and then

1337
01:14:27,000 --> 01:14:31,680
just recently announced that they're ditching Kubernetes for their own

1338
01:14:31,880 --> 01:14:36,760
orchestration platform that they have created, and like they're just

1339
01:14:36,960 --> 01:14:42,199
like completely going off and inventing their own stuff. And

1340
01:14:42,479 --> 01:14:45,199
I think that would be a really cool conversation to

1341
01:14:45,520 --> 01:14:48,279
have and say, just you know, how's that working out

1342
01:14:48,319 --> 01:14:48,520
for you?

1343
01:14:50,720 --> 01:14:58,119
Speaker 2: Yeah? I think I think what's interesting is is you

1344
01:14:58,199 --> 01:15:00,520
know where there's the value of kuman it is or

1345
01:15:00,680 --> 01:15:03,239
these type of things, right, these big frameworks in these

1346
01:15:03,319 --> 01:15:07,479
solve I mean kum that came out of this Google project, right,

1347
01:15:07,800 --> 01:15:10,279
and they run a few more service than I do, right,

1348
01:15:15,119 --> 01:15:21,479
and and and I think it goes down a little

1349
01:15:21,479 --> 01:15:25,600
bit too often many companies do either Hey, they have

1350
01:15:25,800 --> 01:15:28,600
just like say, some CP needs, or they have classical

1351
01:15:29,000 --> 01:15:32,479
that break cress type of needs to the database, or

1352
01:15:32,560 --> 01:15:36,000
they have some aazing processing kind of these servilized pipeline

1353
01:15:36,039 --> 01:15:38,960
type of needs. I feel like if they were running

1354
01:15:39,439 --> 01:15:42,000
and I'm guessing here is krumen it is really in

1355
01:15:42,079 --> 01:15:44,159
the cloud in terms of how potential is a cloud

1356
01:15:44,199 --> 01:15:47,199
provide to sell it and the potentially the options that

1357
01:15:47,279 --> 01:15:48,960
were there. I think that happened a three years ago

1358
01:15:49,039 --> 01:15:54,680
when they announced it. It's different than oh, like you

1359
01:15:54,800 --> 01:15:57,199
go all in on the cloud and figure out how

1360
01:15:57,319 --> 01:16:01,199
can you you know, costper compute, how like cost per

1361
01:16:01,239 --> 01:16:03,840
compute we're not good for them? How can you squeeze

1362
01:16:03,880 --> 01:16:05,920
it out? I think there might have been a cloud

1363
01:16:05,960 --> 01:16:09,119
way to do it. And those are you know, top

1364
01:16:09,239 --> 01:16:11,439
notche engineers. I'm pretty sure they looked at a bunch

1365
01:16:11,479 --> 01:16:14,319
of things. But this is also one of the arguments

1366
01:16:14,399 --> 01:16:17,319
like why you know, I was you know, looking at

1367
01:16:17,399 --> 01:16:21,079
I don't want the krumanides upgrade a year, but if

1368
01:16:21,079 --> 01:16:23,520
it's there, it's not the worst thing, right, But there

1369
01:16:23,600 --> 01:16:26,199
are other things like kumunides. You know a lot of

1370
01:16:26,239 --> 01:16:28,520
people put the stamp on a LinkedIn profile because they

1371
01:16:28,600 --> 01:16:31,600
want to have the stamp. It's the wrong incentive, right,

1372
01:16:31,720 --> 01:16:35,279
and it's but it's also a huge complexity to learn.

1373
01:16:35,319 --> 01:16:39,359
I mean, learning cumanities is equally challenging us learning ITWS

1374
01:16:39,399 --> 01:16:42,319
and learning Google Cloud or whatever it is. Right, It's

1375
01:16:42,359 --> 01:16:45,319
a huge thing and really really mastering that and then

1376
01:16:45,399 --> 01:16:48,479
scaling it to your needs and getting the right cost

1377
01:16:48,520 --> 01:16:53,359
performance security profile. That's another undertaking versus most teams might

1378
01:16:53,439 --> 01:16:55,920
actually just like, yeah, we have the kubanities in the

1379
01:16:56,000 --> 01:16:59,920
cloud and fully managed and these are the seven settings

1380
01:17:00,119 --> 01:17:03,359
we're looking at. And if you're doing that, it's probably

1381
01:17:03,479 --> 01:17:07,000
like something like you know, a more cloud native saying

1382
01:17:07,119 --> 01:17:09,680
that it is more or higher higher managed service like

1383
01:17:09,840 --> 01:17:14,720
NAS has easy as it's just a cluster, has a name.

1384
01:17:15,159 --> 01:17:17,840
That's all you can configure, and then you'll say, oh,

1385
01:17:18,000 --> 01:17:21,600
here's this service, here's the doctor instance, and that's giving

1386
01:17:21,600 --> 01:17:23,840
me so much CPU and memory and then hopefully that

1387
01:17:23,960 --> 01:17:28,319
matches the wallet you have and the workload you're thrown against.

1388
01:17:28,319 --> 01:17:30,359
It has the lot of right balance, but it managed

1389
01:17:30,399 --> 01:17:33,600
this deal all the scaling for you, Like okay, you

1390
01:17:33,680 --> 01:17:36,079
need to configure that right, but it's like it does

1391
01:17:36,239 --> 01:17:38,920
all the magic and the nine thing about it. In

1392
01:17:39,119 --> 01:17:42,239
five years, if you never touch the code, okay, your

1393
01:17:42,279 --> 01:17:45,880
own code might run into security volunabarities, but the underlying

1394
01:17:45,960 --> 01:17:50,479
hardware has changed seven times, runs faster by then, has

1395
01:17:50,680 --> 01:17:54,199
been gone through innovation cycles by the cloud provider, and

1396
01:17:55,079 --> 01:17:58,520
while doing nothing, so your code gets more secure and

1397
01:17:58,760 --> 01:18:01,560
faster while doing nothing. This is a really really beautiful

1398
01:18:02,119 --> 01:18:05,960
thing to have then using managed services, and I think

1399
01:18:06,039 --> 01:18:10,359
that's something that's undervalued. And often like you know this

1400
01:18:10,680 --> 01:18:12,560
on ITA, that's not sure how much we can go

1401
01:18:12,800 --> 01:18:15,319
deep there versus out like there is you back it

1402
01:18:15,359 --> 01:18:17,239
by your own virtual machine and you're only easy to

1403
01:18:17,359 --> 01:18:20,760
instance versus by fargate, which is basically easy to fleet

1404
01:18:20,920 --> 01:18:25,199
managed by WS so you don't see them is looking

1405
01:18:25,239 --> 01:18:27,479
at a one to one comparison. Obviously back by easy

1406
01:18:27,520 --> 01:18:30,199
two is cheaper because you manage it, you have the responsibility.

1407
01:18:30,239 --> 01:18:33,600
But they also know there's so much free capacity there

1408
01:18:33,640 --> 01:18:35,720
what they can basically what they are charging you because

1409
01:18:35,720 --> 01:18:39,760
you have to manage the capacity versus you're really only

1410
01:18:39,840 --> 01:18:43,920
paying what you're needing. So again it's yet one level higher.

1411
01:18:44,600 --> 01:18:47,199
So depending on where you are on the managed services,

1412
01:18:47,279 --> 01:18:49,880
go one level higher and you get a bunch of

1413
01:18:50,000 --> 01:18:56,760
things for free on maintenance, security, upgrades, maintainability and like

1414
01:18:57,039 --> 01:19:00,359
again strive there, like what's your next player? Then after that?

1415
01:19:00,520 --> 01:19:03,439
What's your next player? After that? At some point I

1416
01:19:03,520 --> 01:19:05,439
think there are two stopping points. Some point Okay, I

1417
01:19:05,600 --> 01:19:08,199
don't understand this thing anymore because it's too abstract. There's

1418
01:19:08,279 --> 01:19:11,800
services out there, drop this thing, and we kind of

1419
01:19:11,920 --> 01:19:14,079
run it right, and you want to have a little

1420
01:19:14,079 --> 01:19:17,600
bit more control depending on your needs. Great for startups,

1421
01:19:17,680 --> 01:19:21,439
great for prototypes, great for the amoor wasn't great for

1422
01:19:21,520 --> 01:19:25,800
certain workloads, but not lessening everything. So that's one stopping point.

1423
01:19:25,800 --> 01:19:28,399
And I think the other stopping point is when you

1424
01:19:28,479 --> 01:19:31,600
don't it's not a managed service, but the manage service

1425
01:19:31,680 --> 01:19:35,279
manages you kind of think it is. At one point,

1426
01:19:35,560 --> 01:19:40,880
at some workflow characteristics, they might become expensive. A very

1427
01:19:40,920 --> 01:19:44,279
classical one is the NAT Gateway. Just put it up.

1428
01:19:44,359 --> 01:19:47,600
It's very cheap, but once you actually hits traffic at

1429
01:19:47,640 --> 01:19:53,359
some point you think, should have run my own, right,

1430
01:19:53,680 --> 01:19:57,520
And those are things that I you know, I'm there

1431
01:19:57,800 --> 01:20:01,319
going back to the Hay conversation, is my yeah, should

1432
01:20:01,319 --> 01:20:03,640
I run not their mental arcy, but should I run

1433
01:20:03,720 --> 01:20:07,199
my own here? And it's a slippery slope, right, I

1434
01:20:07,279 --> 01:20:11,479
mean it's from a cost performance cost professor, absolutely, it's

1435
01:20:11,479 --> 01:20:13,439
probably also not that hard to run it. But then

1436
01:20:13,479 --> 01:20:16,319
comes the whole security maintenance, and nobody will have a

1437
01:20:16,399 --> 01:20:18,319
clue of how this works because there you need to

1438
01:20:18,359 --> 01:20:21,119
go deeper into networking and to routing tables and all

1439
01:20:21,119 --> 01:20:23,119
the other things. What you need to understand. I don't

1440
01:20:23,159 --> 01:20:26,840
necessarily want to spend that time there, but I fully

1441
01:20:26,920 --> 01:20:31,720
understand companies that don't run this nap game because it's

1442
01:20:31,840 --> 01:20:33,960
just like hitting a limit where they want to spend

1443
01:20:34,000 --> 01:20:37,159
the money. Yeah. So it's just one example, right, So,

1444
01:20:37,399 --> 01:20:39,880
so I think even managed services they are not this

1445
01:20:40,079 --> 01:20:43,319
is the way to go. There is orders, what you

1446
01:20:43,399 --> 01:20:45,439
need to set and hate by they here's here's where

1447
01:20:45,479 --> 01:20:48,239
we stop or here. Excellence actually means not doing the

1448
01:20:48,439 --> 01:20:49,399
thing that sound.

1449
01:20:49,520 --> 01:20:51,920
Speaker 5: Yeah, no, I think that's a good a good Uh,

1450
01:20:52,159 --> 01:20:55,000
you know, circle back around to the beginning of the

1451
01:20:55,039 --> 01:20:57,920
conversation really, like, you know, figuring out what decisions you

1452
01:20:58,000 --> 01:21:00,439
want to make, uh, and even what the is to

1453
01:21:00,479 --> 01:21:01,640
make those decisions is.

1454
01:21:02,600 --> 01:21:05,560
Speaker 4: What we're calling excellent, our engineering excellence.

1455
01:21:06,039 --> 01:21:07,399
Speaker 3: I fear that.

1456
01:21:09,039 --> 01:21:11,079
Speaker 5: We may be taking up too much of your time,

1457
01:21:11,439 --> 01:21:14,079
and I have this thought that maybe we should move

1458
01:21:14,119 --> 01:21:15,159
on to picks.

1459
01:21:15,319 --> 01:21:18,640
Speaker 4: If there is no one last thing that you wanted

1460
01:21:18,680 --> 01:21:19,279
to share.

1461
01:21:20,279 --> 01:21:22,560
Speaker 2: Oh, I feel like I've talked so much. Thanks for

1462
01:21:22,720 --> 01:21:26,479
having me, so just go on. Yeah.

1463
01:21:26,520 --> 01:21:28,239
Speaker 1: I do want to chime in with one last thing

1464
01:21:28,279 --> 01:21:32,920
and say that I think that net Gateways is an

1465
01:21:33,159 --> 01:21:37,359
individual line item on Amazon profit and lost balance sheet.

1466
01:21:41,840 --> 01:21:45,640
Speaker 2: It is it is right, it's not storage. Storage is

1467
01:21:45,840 --> 01:21:46,319
not a one.

1468
01:21:48,880 --> 01:21:55,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like, we sold five hundred million coffeemakers last year

1469
01:21:55,960 --> 01:21:59,319
and it almost made us as much money as net gateways.

1470
01:22:03,039 --> 01:22:05,159
Speaker 2: Something like that. Oh my god, you could go into

1471
01:22:05,239 --> 01:22:07,439
that direction. But let's let's.

1472
01:22:09,159 --> 01:22:14,479
Speaker 3: Right cool, let's do picks. Warren to bring a pick

1473
01:22:14,560 --> 01:22:14,880
this week.

1474
01:22:15,319 --> 01:22:15,720
Speaker 2: I did.

1475
01:22:15,880 --> 01:22:18,319
Speaker 5: I know, usually it's a book, but I just bought

1476
01:22:18,359 --> 01:22:22,600
this thing. It's a Legion from Lenovo. It's a tablet.

1477
01:22:22,760 --> 01:22:26,640
I loved my Google Nexus for forever. I think I

1478
01:22:26,680 --> 01:22:29,439
had it like ten years or so. Never let me

1479
01:22:29,520 --> 01:22:32,359
down up until last year, where I just totally froze.

1480
01:22:33,000 --> 01:22:34,840
For the most part, I blame the apps that I

1481
01:22:34,920 --> 01:22:36,239
have to run, like they just take up more and

1482
01:22:36,319 --> 01:22:39,760
more memory and upgrades from Google. But this thing a

1483
01:22:39,800 --> 01:22:43,640
little pricey, but still, I mean it's it's been perfect.

1484
01:22:43,680 --> 01:22:46,640
It's been absolutely fantastic. Everything I want in a tablet

1485
01:22:46,760 --> 01:22:48,039
for going on vacation with.

1486
01:22:49,199 --> 01:22:51,079
Speaker 3: So what are the common things you do with your

1487
01:22:51,119 --> 01:22:53,439
tablet that make this a great tablet?

1488
01:22:53,800 --> 01:22:53,920
Speaker 2: Oh?

1489
01:22:54,039 --> 01:22:57,079
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean I'm not a gamer, but it's a

1490
01:22:57,159 --> 01:23:00,319
gaming tablet, which means the battery life is incredibly great,

1491
01:23:01,039 --> 01:23:03,520
and so I get on like fourteen hour flights when

1492
01:23:03,520 --> 01:23:06,119
I'm going to conferences on the other side of the world,

1493
01:23:06,279 --> 01:23:09,119
and so I needed to last that long. So content

1494
01:23:09,279 --> 01:23:12,800
for uh, you know, watching movies, et cetera. I read

1495
01:23:12,800 --> 01:23:14,760
a lot of books. So storage space it has a

1496
01:23:14,800 --> 01:23:17,800
removable flash drive, making it really easy to transfer stuff

1497
01:23:17,800 --> 01:23:21,000
from my desktop. You know, those are really my core ones.

1498
01:23:21,039 --> 01:23:22,239
I mean, every once in a while I need a

1499
01:23:22,279 --> 01:23:25,680
game to actually entertain me on a fourteen plus hour flight,

1500
01:23:25,920 --> 01:23:29,479
which I don't recommend to anyone unless there's something really

1501
01:23:29,520 --> 01:23:31,479
good in it for you. So that that's really my

1502
01:23:31,680 --> 01:23:34,199
my core requirement there, which is why I've gone for

1503
01:23:34,279 --> 01:23:36,000
this instead of something with like E yanch or some

1504
01:23:36,319 --> 01:23:37,319
or on that approach.

1505
01:23:38,039 --> 01:23:41,600
Speaker 3: Right now, cool, all right, Marcus, would you bring for

1506
01:23:41,640 --> 01:23:41,960
a pick?

1507
01:23:43,800 --> 01:23:46,560
Speaker 2: I thought of bringing that podcast, like a little bit

1508
01:23:46,600 --> 01:23:54,760
of competition to you. I do a little bit of sports,

1509
01:23:54,800 --> 01:23:56,880
and it's one of the way off of actually getting

1510
01:23:56,880 --> 01:24:01,039
some information. But it's it's Farnham straight Shane Perrish, and

1511
01:24:01,199 --> 01:24:06,239
he interviews just like top business leaders, top sports and

1512
01:24:06,359 --> 01:24:09,800
coaches and other things. And I've gone through wellow one

1513
01:24:09,880 --> 01:24:12,960
hundred series of I think he's at a one hundred

1514
01:24:13,000 --> 01:24:16,000
and ninety podcast by now does it every week or

1515
01:24:16,039 --> 01:24:20,439
every second week. I think every second week, and I'm

1516
01:24:20,479 --> 01:24:24,760
following along almost everything, and I think it's it's just inspirational.

1517
01:24:24,880 --> 01:24:28,319
What you know, talk about engineering excellence. It is what

1518
01:24:28,600 --> 01:24:32,880
are other disciplines doing right? Sometimes it's someone in psychology

1519
01:24:34,239 --> 01:24:39,960
some other science feels investing sports everything and like just

1520
01:24:40,079 --> 01:24:44,239
gives you a different perspective learning from the best. What

1521
01:24:44,359 --> 01:24:47,119
they have already figured out is what his tagline is.

1522
01:24:47,239 --> 01:24:49,199
And I think I really really like that. And I

1523
01:24:49,840 --> 01:24:53,760
can only recommend if you are short of time. I

1524
01:24:53,800 --> 01:24:56,640
don't know how much I should go into recommend recommending

1525
01:24:56,800 --> 01:24:59,520
other people here, but it's clear. Thinking is the book

1526
01:25:00,119 --> 01:25:04,039
Shane Heart brought up half a year ago. It's summarizing

1527
01:25:04,079 --> 01:25:07,760
about the whole community what he has built up over

1528
01:25:07,840 --> 01:25:12,840
the years and the consistency definitely worth a read right on.

1529
01:25:13,199 --> 01:25:15,800
Speaker 3: Very cool cool.

1530
01:25:15,880 --> 01:25:19,960
Speaker 1: So my pick for the week is there's a song

1531
01:25:20,079 --> 01:25:24,680
that's actually an older song now from a band called Metallica.

1532
01:25:24,840 --> 01:25:27,880
The song is called one, And it feels so weird

1533
01:25:27,920 --> 01:25:31,000
to say that that's an old song now because that

1534
01:25:31,279 --> 01:25:34,720
just reminds me that I am old now. But there's

1535
01:25:35,239 --> 01:25:36,880
you know, there's a lot of people who haven't heard it,

1536
01:25:36,920 --> 01:25:40,520
And so there's a YouTube reaction video from.

1537
01:25:40,359 --> 01:25:42,720
Speaker 3: A YouTuber called the Vocalist. She's like a.

1538
01:25:42,800 --> 01:25:48,680
Speaker 1: Classically trained vocal instructor, and so she watches the music

1539
01:25:48,800 --> 01:25:52,840
video for Metallica's song one and reacts to it. And

1540
01:25:52,960 --> 01:25:55,640
it's cool because there's just a lot of layers into this.

1541
01:25:56,399 --> 01:26:00,960
The song one itself is about a movie from nineteen

1542
01:26:01,079 --> 01:26:04,720
seventy three called Johnny Got His Gun, about a soldier

1543
01:26:04,760 --> 01:26:07,439
who's injured in World War One, and.

1544
01:26:09,319 --> 01:26:10,600
Speaker 3: So the song is about that.

1545
01:26:11,039 --> 01:26:15,279
Speaker 1: And then so there's clips from the movie in the

1546
01:26:15,359 --> 01:26:19,319
music video. But then the orchestration of the song itself

1547
01:26:19,640 --> 01:26:22,960
is just really well done. And then her reaction to

1548
01:26:23,079 --> 01:26:26,039
that as she watches it and she's trying to comprehend

1549
01:26:26,640 --> 01:26:29,359
the movie that the song is about, plus the orchestration

1550
01:26:30,119 --> 01:26:32,359
and the instrumental work of the song, Like it's just

1551
01:26:32,520 --> 01:26:37,760
all these layers in one short video. That's super cool,

1552
01:26:38,079 --> 01:26:41,159
definitely worth checking out, whether you are a Metallica fan

1553
01:26:41,479 --> 01:26:45,640
or not. It's just there's entertainment there for people of

1554
01:26:45,720 --> 01:26:49,720
all types. So that is YouTuber The Vocalist and her

1555
01:26:49,840 --> 01:26:56,159
reaction of Metallica song one, and that's all we have

1556
01:26:56,319 --> 01:26:57,079
for the podcast.

1557
01:26:58,119 --> 01:27:00,720
Speaker 3: So for everyone listening to the podcasting, thank you for listening.

1558
01:27:01,199 --> 01:27:04,560
Speaker 1: For all the people watching the live streams on twitch,

1559
01:27:05,319 --> 01:27:08,880
YouTube or whatever other streaming platforms we're on, thank you

1560
01:27:09,000 --> 01:27:13,000
for watching. And Marcus, thanks for joining us. This has

1561
01:27:13,039 --> 01:27:14,119
been a cool conversation.

1562
01:27:15,760 --> 01:27:17,520
Speaker 2: Thanks a lot for having me. Was an honor and

1563
01:27:18,920 --> 01:27:22,359
was also a fun conversation. Definitely some challenging ideas and

1564
01:27:22,479 --> 01:27:24,279
thoughts right on.

1565
01:27:25,000 --> 01:27:27,479
Speaker 1: Warren, as always, thanks for joining me and co hosting

1566
01:27:27,560 --> 01:27:27,880
the show.

1567
01:27:30,319 --> 01:27:31,600
Speaker 3: We'll see everyone next week.