1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:03,000 Speaker 1: I like listening to podcasts, but I don't like podcasts 2 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:07,080 that say you must listen for this reason. Really, I'm 3 00:00:07,080 --> 00:00:09,880 not a follower. I'm a leader, right, Isn't that why 4 00:00:09,960 --> 00:00:12,359 we have the power of choice. That's what ero dot 5 00:00:12,439 --> 00:00:15,119 net is all about. A R r oe dot Net 6 00:00:15,160 --> 00:00:19,239 twenty different podcasts. It's a podcast network. One of them 7 00:00:19,399 --> 00:00:23,039 is called street Speak with Alexa and Clarence. It's real 8 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:27,960 life versus the AI digital life, and there's a conversation 9 00:00:28,079 --> 00:00:32,960 between the two generations of sound without having human relations. 10 00:00:33,679 --> 00:00:37,079 Street Speak with Alexa and Clarence only on Arrow dot 11 00:00:37,119 --> 00:00:41,759 Net A R r oe dot Net. Enjoy your exploration. True, 12 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:43,039 how are you today? 13 00:00:43,679 --> 00:00:44,679 Speaker 2: I'm great? Great. 14 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:48,240 Speaker 1: I'll tell you you've you've done something here that and I'm 15 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:49,479 not going to be the only one that's going to 16 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:51,840 say this, but you kind of put a sense of 17 00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:55,240 calm inside my soul because everything that we're going through 18 00:00:55,280 --> 00:00:59,280 politically today basically feels like it's already happened. And you 19 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:01,439 take us into an area of history where I'm going 20 00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:04,159 I did not know this happened, but it's helping me 21 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:06,040 understand where we are today. 22 00:01:07,079 --> 00:01:08,200 Speaker 2: Well, thank you, thank you. 23 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:12,159 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's that's since I've started writing books, I'm trying 24 00:01:12,159 --> 00:01:14,120 to tell stories that have not been told before. 25 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:17,519 Speaker 2: So that's that's sort of my whole approach. 26 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:20,079 Speaker 1: How do you find stories like that? Because I mean, 27 00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:22,760 we live in this AI generated world that's making up 28 00:01:22,799 --> 00:01:25,879 its own stories because obviously think there's no new ones. 29 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:29,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, well I'm writing a new book, just just 30 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:33,239 finishing a new book about Lennon Johnson ran four different 31 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:38,280 campaigns in nineteen sixty And you think there's been a thousand. 32 00:01:37,959 --> 00:01:40,760 Speaker 2: Books written about Linda Johnson, but no one's ever told 33 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:41,200 this story. 34 00:01:41,439 --> 00:01:44,400 Speaker 1: No, No, I'm very I'm intrigued by that because Lennon 35 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:48,640 Johnson was part of my extremely young generation and it's like, wow, 36 00:01:48,719 --> 00:01:51,239 that because that would be probably the first president in 37 00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:52,599 my life as a human. 38 00:01:53,359 --> 00:01:54,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, no, he was. 39 00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:58,280 Speaker 3: I'm not I'm not a big fan of his, but 40 00:01:58,319 --> 00:02:02,599 he was quite an extraordinary person in many ways, and 41 00:02:03,239 --> 00:02:08,719 his political chops were pretty astonishing. I mean literally rans 42 00:02:08,759 --> 00:02:13,560 for four different positions in nineteen sixty. 43 00:02:13,879 --> 00:02:16,280 Speaker 1: Boy wanting to win, that's it. Okay, So how do 44 00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:19,039 we win? We just we apply for every job that's available. 45 00:02:19,039 --> 00:02:22,639 Speaker 2: That's how you win, exactly exactly. 46 00:02:23,159 --> 00:02:26,840 Speaker 1: Well, you know, I'm not familiar with William Seward. And 47 00:02:26,879 --> 00:02:29,479 the reason why is because I didn't learn anything about 48 00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:31,919 him in high school or even elementary school. 49 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:35,080 Speaker 3: The stent he's known at all, it's for purchasing Alaska, 50 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:38,360 which at the time was thought to be a terrible idea. 51 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:42,960 They called it Seward's folly. But the real answer to 52 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:49,960 your question is history writes about winners, and so Abraham 53 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:52,599 Lincoln has had I don't know ten thousand books written 54 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:54,360 about him because he got to be president, and of 55 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:57,280 course he was a great president, probably our greatest president, 56 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:03,879 and Seward should have been present. He was the presumptive 57 00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:10,120 favorite for the eighteen sixty Republican Convention, and Lincoln beat 58 00:03:10,159 --> 00:03:14,439 him on the third ballot, but he was He was 59 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:19,240 one of the most consequential people of American history. He 60 00:03:19,439 --> 00:03:22,719 was a governor from New York, senator from New York, 61 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:27,159 one of the greatest secretaries of state in our history, 62 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:36,000 and very importantly, the whole construct for our territorial expansion. 63 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:37,840 Speaker 2: Was his blueprint. 64 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:42,639 Speaker 3: I was going to say, yeah, yeah, So he he 65 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:46,800 saw us going to the in the Pacific, taking Hawaii. 66 00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:53,520 He actually bought Midway. He bought the so called Guano Islands. 67 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:54,400 Speaker 2: He actually. 68 00:03:55,599 --> 00:03:59,960 Speaker 3: Tried to buy Greenland, which is pretty topical for today. 69 00:04:00,719 --> 00:04:03,039 He tried to buy a number of islands in the Caribbean. 70 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:08,240 He planned the Panama Canal. So he was talking about 71 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:10,560 all these things in eighteen fifty and eighteen fifty two, 72 00:04:11,439 --> 00:04:13,960 and he got to do some of them and didn't 73 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:14,719 get to do the others. 74 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:16,439 Speaker 1: And see, and this is the very reason why I 75 00:04:16,519 --> 00:04:19,360 was bringing up that. It's like, you're helping me understand 76 00:04:19,360 --> 00:04:21,920 today because look at what's going on with the expansion 77 00:04:21,959 --> 00:04:24,680 today or how they're wanting to expand, and so you 78 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:27,480 give me that opportunity to go back and see other 79 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:30,279 people in other times of history that had to deal 80 00:04:30,319 --> 00:04:32,360 with other situations almost like this. 81 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:33,759 Speaker 2: Yeah. 82 00:04:33,879 --> 00:04:39,079 Speaker 3: No, he was a true visionary and he saw the 83 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:42,879 future of America was not toward Europe, but really was 84 00:04:42,959 --> 00:04:49,120 toward Asia. And that's where he thought the future really 85 00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:53,720 lay for America. And so that was his whole emphasis. 86 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:58,519 He was one of the pioneers for the condemental Railroad. 87 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:03,240 He did all these things, but he's lost to history 88 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:04,560 because he never became president. 89 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:07,000 Speaker 1: Right, how do you think it would have played out? 90 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:09,639 And the reason why is that because we all you know, 91 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:12,839 associate Abraham Lincoln with the Civil War? Could it have 92 00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:15,759 been prevented because the current president says, we didn't have 93 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:17,759 to do that, We could have worked things out. And 94 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:19,600 then when I read it in your book, I'm going, 95 00:05:19,839 --> 00:05:22,720 oh my god, now I've got a different perspective. 96 00:05:23,439 --> 00:05:28,439 Speaker 3: Yeah, So the writing what it's history is a very 97 00:05:28,519 --> 00:05:34,600 dangerous thing because you never But but what is indisputable 98 00:05:34,839 --> 00:05:37,839 is that Seward did keep the Upper South in the Union. 99 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:45,560 Between Lincoln's election and Fort Sumter, three different states voted 100 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:52,720 not to seceed. Virginia, North Carolina, and Tennessee and Arkansas 101 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:54,000 essentially did the same thing. 102 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:56,959 Speaker 2: So all these states stayed in the. 103 00:05:57,000 --> 00:06:02,279 Speaker 3: Union based upon this one guy, William Henry Seward, and 104 00:06:02,519 --> 00:06:07,319 Lincoln followed his advice and not tried to resupply Sumter. 105 00:06:08,879 --> 00:06:12,399 The whole reason for the South and the Upper South 106 00:06:13,639 --> 00:06:19,079 seceding would have not existed. And the amazing thing this 107 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:21,480 sort of takes away to what if part of history 108 00:06:22,279 --> 00:06:28,560 Lincoln made the decision to resupply Ster knowing, not not suspecting, 109 00:06:28,959 --> 00:06:33,120 but knowing that that would cause the Civil War, and 110 00:06:33,199 --> 00:06:39,879 so had had Seward. What Seward's advice was, look, Sumter 111 00:06:40,040 --> 00:06:44,759 is undefensible, and we can't, we don't have the truth 112 00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:49,480 to resupply it any even it's surrounded on all sides 113 00:06:49,639 --> 00:06:53,759 by Confederate guns ready to shoot it at ship that 114 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:54,319 comes in there. 115 00:06:55,079 --> 00:06:57,600 Speaker 2: And it's of no military value at all. 116 00:06:57,680 --> 00:07:01,240 Speaker 3: It's just totally it's just a symbol, and more of 117 00:07:01,279 --> 00:07:03,439 a symbol to the South than it is to the North. 118 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:09,759 There's another fort off of Florida, Fort Pickens, which was 119 00:07:09,879 --> 00:07:14,120 militarily defensible, which did have a strategic value, and we 120 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:19,839 did resupply it, and the South didn't care. So Seward said, 121 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:25,399 let's just give up Sumter who cares, and resupply Pickens, 122 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:30,759 and that'll show the North that we've resupplied a Southern fort, 123 00:07:31,079 --> 00:07:36,279 it's a federal government fort, and not try to do 124 00:07:36,319 --> 00:07:38,120 the impossible, which we know is going to cause the 125 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:43,000 Civil War. And Lincoln followed that advice in March, but 126 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:47,120 then changed his mind in April, and that caused the 127 00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:52,639 Civil War. And again he wasn't suspecting that that would happen. 128 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:56,360 Lincoln knew that would happen. And so this is one 129 00:07:56,360 --> 00:07:59,560 of the things that really has to change people's perspective 130 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:02,759 on lincol and that while he was our greatest president. 131 00:08:03,319 --> 00:08:06,399 He wasn't a perfect president. He did a lot of 132 00:08:06,399 --> 00:08:10,560 things wrong, and especially in those early months, here was 133 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:16,199 a guy who literally had no executive experience. He had 134 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:19,439 one term in the Congress, which wasn't terribly successful. He 135 00:08:19,439 --> 00:08:23,360 didn't know anybody in Washington. Literally, he didn't know any 136 00:08:23,519 --> 00:08:25,800 politicians in the South except for a couple of people 137 00:08:25,839 --> 00:08:29,680 from his days when he was a congressman, and so 138 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:30,879 he was completely. 139 00:08:30,439 --> 00:08:31,399 Speaker 2: Over his head. 140 00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:35,279 Speaker 3: As I read in the book, he spent his whole 141 00:08:35,879 --> 00:08:39,320 month of first six weeks dealing with patronage people begging 142 00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:43,039 him for jobs. One just on one day in the 143 00:08:43,039 --> 00:08:45,720 White House in March, a thousand people were in the 144 00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:49,799 White House bothering him for job and one day so 145 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:52,879 he was literally tearing his hair out trying to deal 146 00:08:52,919 --> 00:08:57,200 with this boloney of people wanting jobs while the country's 147 00:08:57,240 --> 00:09:00,399 falling apart, and he has no experience for with this. 148 00:09:00,559 --> 00:09:03,200 You can you can empathize with the poor guy. I mean, 149 00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:09,200 it was like, but he made this decision based upon 150 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:17,320 terrible intelligence, and he had contray intelligence, which was absolutely true. 151 00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:20,480 In fact, Major Anderson, the guy who's in charge of 152 00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:25,639 Fort Sumter, literally told him, don't try to resupply it 153 00:09:25,679 --> 00:09:28,600 won't work right, and I hadn't did it anyway, So 154 00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:31,840 this was a guy really sort of over his head 155 00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:36,799 and made the wrong decision and it causes of war. 156 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:40,679 Speaker 1: You know, the way that you described where Fort Sumter is. 157 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:42,840 For those that have not been in Charleston, I mean, 158 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:45,759 I really want them to understand how you described that 159 00:09:45,919 --> 00:09:48,879 even in the book, because you're right that island was 160 00:09:48,919 --> 00:09:51,440 out there Fort Sumter and it could be seen by 161 00:09:51,519 --> 00:09:54,919 every angle possible. And I've always wondered why Fort Moultrie 162 00:09:54,919 --> 00:09:56,879 didn't become a part of this and why it wasn't 163 00:09:56,879 --> 00:09:59,759 really brought into that storyline. But I'm telling you that, 164 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:03,080 you know what you say things about Fort Sumter that 165 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:06,000 really just opened up my eyes because this is my backyard. 166 00:10:06,279 --> 00:10:08,600 This is I've been on the tours. They never speak 167 00:10:08,639 --> 00:10:10,879 of what you put in this book, and especially when 168 00:10:10,879 --> 00:10:14,320 it comes even with that with the Democratic National Convention 169 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:16,840 down there and you don't hear of it. But then 170 00:10:16,879 --> 00:10:21,200 again you explain that to me. Nobody talks about the losers. 171 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:21,399 Speaker 2: Right right? 172 00:10:22,039 --> 00:10:29,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, Well Anderson did actually move from Moultrie to Fort Sumter, really, Yeah, 173 00:10:29,399 --> 00:10:31,960 because it was it was believe it or not, more 174 00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:37,840 if so, you've been there. It's more defensible marginally than 175 00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:42,879 Fort Moultrie, and and so there was some chance, but 176 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:46,840 it was Look, the guy who was the head of 177 00:10:46,879 --> 00:10:51,120 the army, General Scott, told Lincoln, you'd need twenty thousand 178 00:10:51,159 --> 00:10:57,720 men to actually go in to resupply the fort. Now, 179 00:10:57,759 --> 00:11:02,440 the US Army at that point didn't twenty thousand men anywhere. 180 00:11:02,519 --> 00:11:05,320 Oh my god, let alone twenty thousand men to send 181 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:09,600 down to do this. So and the one guy, the 182 00:11:09,639 --> 00:11:12,559 one guy who said this could be done, was the 183 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:17,519 brother in law of his Postmaster general, who had absolutely 184 00:11:17,559 --> 00:11:19,360 no experience in doing. 185 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:19,960 Speaker 2: Anything like this. 186 00:11:20,919 --> 00:11:24,639 Speaker 3: Lincoln, Lincoln, for some reason took this guy's advice, which 187 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:27,960 makes no sense at all. Again, it just shows Lincoln, 188 00:11:28,399 --> 00:11:31,840 as smart as he was, especially at the beginning of 189 00:11:31,879 --> 00:11:38,399 that administration, really was overwhelmed, as I mean, as anyone 190 00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:43,320 would be. But Seward, of course had been in Washington 191 00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:49,200 for ten years, knew everybody, everybody respected him. He had 192 00:11:49,639 --> 00:11:53,879 lines across the aisle. So Douglas worked, Stephen Douglas worked 193 00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:56,559 very well with him. Jefferson Davis was a personal friend 194 00:11:56,559 --> 00:12:01,559 of William Henry Seward's. All these people could work with them, 195 00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:05,600 All he was working with all these unionists in the 196 00:12:05,679 --> 00:12:09,039 Upper South who kept telling him, please. 197 00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:12,480 Speaker 2: Don't try to resupply Sumpter. That's like a trigger, that. 198 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:17,399 Speaker 3: The hair trigger that if you do that, we won't 199 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:19,279 be able to hold off the fire eaters. 200 00:12:19,840 --> 00:12:23,399 Speaker 1: Was that the main reason why he didn't become president, 201 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:25,039 because the thing is is that, I mean, I can 202 00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:27,559 understand today you can say one wrong thing on social 203 00:12:27,639 --> 00:12:31,000 media and you're going down and it's like there's something 204 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:34,320 the needle in the haystack here is is that what happened? 205 00:12:34,399 --> 00:12:37,399 And why the succession of the winter between November of 206 00:12:37,399 --> 00:12:40,279 eighteen sixty to April of sixty one. You sit there 207 00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:42,320 and you go, there is something for all of us 208 00:12:42,399 --> 00:12:44,960 to learn here. I'm going to find out what it is. 209 00:12:45,279 --> 00:12:48,360 And you took the chance to really bravely step forward 210 00:12:48,159 --> 00:12:49,559 with information here. 211 00:12:50,360 --> 00:12:54,759 Speaker 2: Yeah, so let me answer your question. Then it goes. 212 00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:57,279 It does have some time in this to what we're 213 00:12:57,320 --> 00:12:57,919 doing today. 214 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:02,519 Speaker 3: So Seward was one of the very few Northern politicians 215 00:13:03,039 --> 00:13:05,000 who openly embraced immigration. 216 00:13:05,759 --> 00:13:08,399 Speaker 2: Yes, and so when he was governor of. 217 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:12,360 Speaker 3: New York, he actually took affirmative steps to welcome Irish 218 00:13:12,399 --> 00:13:17,000 immigrants who came to New York and tried to help them, 219 00:13:17,159 --> 00:13:19,879 especially with respect to parochial schools. 220 00:13:21,360 --> 00:13:21,840 Speaker 2: Now, this. 221 00:13:24,879 --> 00:13:30,039 Speaker 3: Whatever you call that, became a big problem in the 222 00:13:30,039 --> 00:13:36,080 eighteen fifties when a nativist political party called the Know 223 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:41,320 Nothings became very, very very powerful. Ultimately, the No Nothings 224 00:13:41,399 --> 00:13:45,960 merged with the Republicans, and at the eighteen sixty convention, 225 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:52,519 the No Nothings, who were particularly prominent in Pennsylvania, Indiana, 226 00:13:52,600 --> 00:14:01,480 and Illinois, didn't want Seward, and interestingly, Lincoln, although privately 227 00:14:02,639 --> 00:14:07,559 he told people he didn't believe in prejudice against people 228 00:14:07,799 --> 00:14:11,960 who were Catholic and from foreign countries, he wouldn't take 229 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:15,120 that position publicly because he had many friends in the 230 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:18,799 No Nothing movement and he was more interested in. 231 00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:21,039 Speaker 2: Merging them into the Republicans that he wasn't making them angry. 232 00:14:21,799 --> 00:14:26,679 Speaker 3: So Seward did not become president because he was more 233 00:14:26,679 --> 00:14:30,559 open to immigration and was more tolerant of religion and 234 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:32,799 religious diversity than Lincoln was. 235 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:35,919 Speaker 2: And that's why Lincoln got the nomination and Seward did not. 236 00:14:36,519 --> 00:14:39,120 Speaker 1: Please do not move. There's more with c Evan Stewart 237 00:14:39,159 --> 00:14:44,080 coming up next. The name of the book William Henry 238 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:47,039 Sewart Quest to Save the nation. We are back with 239 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:50,039 c Evan Stewart. Have you taken the time to sit 240 00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:54,159 down with Bill Cunningham, that national syndicated talk show host, 241 00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:57,480 because everything that you're sharing is something that my god. 242 00:14:57,559 --> 00:14:59,679 The way that he does the research as well for 243 00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:03,639 this period, it's almost like you guys are our brothers 244 00:15:03,639 --> 00:15:06,840 from different mothers. Because I just love this side of history, 245 00:15:06,919 --> 00:15:11,159 because you're giving us a clearer picture of so many 246 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:14,360 different things that took place then as well as everything 247 00:15:14,399 --> 00:15:15,000 that followed. 248 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:19,159 Speaker 3: So I have not sat down with mister Cunningham, but 249 00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:24,000 people don't like to Americans don't like to talk about 250 00:15:24,039 --> 00:15:28,120 difficult periods in our past, right, and the fact that 251 00:15:28,679 --> 00:15:31,879 here you had this very powerful strain in our country 252 00:15:32,559 --> 00:15:35,240 that went on for a long period of time. I 253 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:37,240 mean remember when nol you know, you and I weren't 254 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:39,120 alive then. But when Al Smith ran for president in 255 00:15:39,159 --> 00:15:44,879 nineteen twenty eight, he got absolutely slack because he was Catholic. Yeah, 256 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:48,159 there's there's been a very strong strain in our country 257 00:15:48,519 --> 00:15:49,720 for a long period of time. 258 00:15:49,799 --> 00:15:52,279 Speaker 2: It really it really ended when Jack Kennedy. 259 00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:55,759 Speaker 3: Was elected president, although a lot of people voted against 260 00:15:55,799 --> 00:15:58,039 him because he was Catholic, but as soon as he 261 00:15:58,039 --> 00:16:03,039 became president, this spear of caol have vanished like overnight. 262 00:16:03,679 --> 00:16:06,440 But up until that time, this was very powerful strain 263 00:16:06,519 --> 00:16:11,120 in American politics. And this is why I mean it's 264 00:16:11,559 --> 00:16:14,639 I point this out in the book. There's no doubt 265 00:16:14,679 --> 00:16:18,559 about it that Lincoln won that nomin over Seward because 266 00:16:19,279 --> 00:16:24,240 those three states, those people perceived that he was more 267 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:27,679 likely to get know nothing support than Seward was. 268 00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:31,519 Speaker 2: And so that was that was the key to the nomination. 269 00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:34,639 Speaker 1: I got to give you. And you're probably sharing kudos 270 00:16:34,759 --> 00:16:36,879 and its, and it's because I think that you guys 271 00:16:36,879 --> 00:16:39,279 are so tapped into where we are as people who 272 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:41,799 love content. The way that you were able to put 273 00:16:41,799 --> 00:16:44,000 the notes at the end of the chapters that is 274 00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:46,559 so important to me as a reader because that means 275 00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:48,679 I don't have to put the book down to go 276 00:16:48,759 --> 00:16:52,639 search forward on chat GPT, and you really did your 277 00:16:52,639 --> 00:16:55,600 homework to know exactly that You've given us so much information. 278 00:16:55,879 --> 00:16:57,480 Now we want to have a little bit more, and 279 00:16:57,559 --> 00:16:58,320 you provide that. 280 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:04,000 Speaker 3: So I was inspired to do that that way by 281 00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:08,319 Lincoln's greatest biographer, a guy named David Donald, who was 282 00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:14,599 a wonderful Harvard professor and wrote the one best single 283 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:21,240 volume biography of Lincoln. Uh. There's another two volume biography 284 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:23,359 of Lincoln that I spent a lot in the book. 285 00:17:23,519 --> 00:17:26,240 Also a guy named Michael Burling Game, which is quite good, 286 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:32,759 although he doesn't like Seward and his his end notes 287 00:17:32,759 --> 00:17:36,240 are a little harder to decipher for the average reader. 288 00:17:36,759 --> 00:17:44,519 But Donald did, and I've tried to emulate that somewhat, 289 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:53,559 is tell a story in the text, uh sufficiently uh 290 00:17:53,599 --> 00:17:59,319 detailed that people get what's the general point, And then 291 00:18:00,279 --> 00:18:02,200 as you say not, you don't have to go to 292 00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:04,279 the end of the book. Just a couple of pages 293 00:18:04,359 --> 00:18:10,240 later there's a detailed explanation, not just of more details 294 00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:18,119 but debates among historians about what actually happened or so. 295 00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:22,039 For example, there's a huge debate which I talk about 296 00:18:22,079 --> 00:18:26,720 a lot, but in the end notes, why did Lincoln 297 00:18:26,759 --> 00:18:29,759 make this decision when he knew the South was going 298 00:18:29,839 --> 00:18:31,079 to fire. 299 00:18:30,799 --> 00:18:33,640 Speaker 2: On Fort Sumter and would cause this Civil War? Why 300 00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:34,519 did he do that? Yeah? 301 00:18:34,599 --> 00:18:34,799 Speaker 1: Why? 302 00:18:35,559 --> 00:18:35,880 Speaker 2: Yeah? 303 00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:40,079 Speaker 3: And there are basically three different camps that. 304 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:43,119 Speaker 2: Don't agree with one another. 305 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:46,200 Speaker 3: And Lincoln, of course never wrote his memoirs because he 306 00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:50,400 was assassinated. But no one really knows why Lincoln did that, 307 00:18:51,839 --> 00:18:54,960 other than the fact, as I say, it's indisputable. He 308 00:18:55,079 --> 00:18:58,559 was very confused and wasn't sure exactly what he was doing, 309 00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:01,480 and clearly was not listening to a very good advisors 310 00:19:01,519 --> 00:19:06,319 at that point, because include Seward out. 311 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:08,079 Speaker 2: But so. 312 00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:12,480 Speaker 3: That's one example where you can go into the end 313 00:19:12,559 --> 00:19:16,279 notes when you're saying I think it's a logical point. 314 00:19:16,319 --> 00:19:18,880 If you're reading the text, you might say, jeez, why 315 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:20,559 did Lincoln do this when he knew it was going 316 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:23,079 to cause the Civil War? There's a footnote that then 317 00:19:23,119 --> 00:19:25,799 takes you to say, there are three different schools of 318 00:19:25,839 --> 00:19:30,000 thought among historians for the last hundred years who studied 319 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:31,880 this made that to their life studies. 320 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:34,680 Speaker 2: Why did Lincoln do this? 321 00:19:35,039 --> 00:19:38,440 Speaker 3: And no one really knows, but here are three general 322 00:19:38,759 --> 00:19:42,839 schools of why he did this, And as with most 323 00:19:42,839 --> 00:19:46,599 things in history, the answer is probably some element of 324 00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:51,160 all three. It wasn't probably just one thing. Most politicians 325 00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:53,200 never do anything for one reason. 326 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:58,960 Speaker 2: They do things and and good that's a good thing. 327 00:19:59,000 --> 00:19:59,920 I mean, Franklin. 328 00:19:59,599 --> 00:20:04,559 Speaker 3: Roosevelt usually did things for ten different reasons, right, and 329 00:20:05,119 --> 00:20:07,519 that was part of his genius. 330 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:09,680 Speaker 2: It made people who worked for him to want to 331 00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:12,680 tear their hair out. They couldn't figure out what the 332 00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:15,079 boss really was meant or why he was doing it. 333 00:20:15,359 --> 00:20:18,440 Speaker 3: But that was fine. Roseld said. The only fun who 334 00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:20,640 needs to know why I'm doing what I'm doing is me. 335 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:22,279 You people don't need to know that. 336 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:25,359 Speaker 2: And so Lincoln was sort of the same way. I 337 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:27,480 mean Lincoln at the end of the day. 338 00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:32,799 Speaker 3: Although Seward became his closest advisor on the cabinet level, 339 00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:35,440 it just shows you how different a world it was. 340 00:20:35,599 --> 00:20:37,559 He really only had two aids in the White House, 341 00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:41,720 which is which is sort of hard to believe to 342 00:20:41,799 --> 00:20:43,720 think you're running the country. 343 00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:45,480 Speaker 2: It was a different country then. 344 00:20:45,519 --> 00:20:48,680 Speaker 3: Obviously, but during a Civil War, when you really have 345 00:20:48,759 --> 00:20:52,680 two aids in the White House helping you, that was it. 346 00:20:53,119 --> 00:20:58,400 And they were very young men, so and it was 347 00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:02,440 a very different era. And so the one thing I 348 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:07,599 I like about Spielberg's movie about Lincoln, about the only thing. 349 00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:08,960 Speaker 2: I like about it is. 350 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:12,920 Speaker 3: It reflects how closely Seward and Lincoln worked together. 351 00:21:13,839 --> 00:21:15,079 Speaker 2: That's about the aud heard that. 352 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:17,000 Speaker 1: I heard that. 353 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:18,839 Speaker 2: That's about the only thing in that movie that's accurate. 354 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:21,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, I heard that. Yeah, But is there is there 355 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:25,440 a part of your journalistic studies and and your desire 356 00:21:25,519 --> 00:21:28,400 to know history to go into why did he go 357 00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:32,839 into seclusion? Uh? For for when when South Carolina decided 358 00:21:32,839 --> 00:21:34,359 to break away? Because that it seems to be one 359 00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:36,839 of those moments that I would bring up in a debate. 360 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:39,759 Why did you go into hiding? What was the purpose? 361 00:21:39,799 --> 00:21:42,839 And I'm still wanting to know why was there seclusion? 362 00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:47,079 Speaker 2: Run into seclusion? 363 00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:49,279 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, because I mean it's it's like I guess 364 00:21:49,279 --> 00:21:51,319 when when I see that, it's like, Okay, you turned 365 00:21:51,319 --> 00:21:53,599 your back, you backed in. What's going on? Why Why 366 00:21:53,599 --> 00:21:56,519 were you hiding when this was going on? You don't 367 00:21:56,559 --> 00:21:58,200 know what I mean, It's it's like, okay, because we all 368 00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:00,720 go into hiding for some reason. I just want to 369 00:22:00,759 --> 00:22:02,720 know the better man, the better the better picture of 370 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:03,799 such a decision. 371 00:22:04,839 --> 00:22:06,640 Speaker 2: Well, he didn't completely go into hiding. 372 00:22:07,599 --> 00:22:11,279 Speaker 3: Again, he was still being deluded people speaking jobs at 373 00:22:11,279 --> 00:22:17,720 that point, and uh, he was still meeting with Spert 374 00:22:17,759 --> 00:22:20,640 and others. In fact, he kept meeting with people from 375 00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:25,599 the Upper South literally until the cannon shots were fired 376 00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:34,039 at some good Yeah. But yeah, so give you example, 377 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:38,720 how do we, oh, there's a little contrary to point. 378 00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:41,480 How do we know that he knew that war was 379 00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:44,759 coming and that he that he what he was was 380 00:22:44,799 --> 00:22:49,559 going to bring war. Well a day or two he 381 00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:53,400 authorized the ships to leave York to go to someone. 382 00:22:53,599 --> 00:22:56,400 So they're they're already on the going down the Atlantic 383 00:22:56,440 --> 00:23:01,000 coast to go there. He calls together leading go from 384 00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:05,839 the Northern States who are Republicans, and he says, several 385 00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:10,119 wars come, and first the first thing the South is 386 00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:14,559 going to do is march. Can I count you, gentlemen 387 00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:17,000 to supply troops to the capital. 388 00:23:18,319 --> 00:23:20,400 Speaker 2: So that that. 389 00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:25,319 Speaker 3: Education of his mind, he knows that this decision is 390 00:23:25,319 --> 00:23:28,839 going to cause this, He knows the likely result, which 391 00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:32,359 is the South uh from the troops moving. 392 00:23:35,279 --> 00:23:41,039 Speaker 2: And the northern governor are they able to bring. 393 00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:44,599 Speaker 3: Troops to bear on the ground in Washington with the 394 00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:47,240 day and they assure him that they can. 395 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:52,799 Speaker 2: So this this is all no surprised that Lincoln when 396 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:57,160 the everything sort of falls apart. I think the biggest 397 00:23:57,319 --> 00:24:01,440 point in the book is that link and called for 398 00:24:01,519 --> 00:24:02,759 the Northern. 399 00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:10,680 Speaker 3: States publicly to supply seventy troops. It was sort of 400 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:16,440 like Pearl Harbor. There was a unified country at least 401 00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:19,839 in the north because of the South had fire first, 402 00:24:21,079 --> 00:24:26,559 and so there was this outrage against the traders a 403 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:31,079 secession was firing on a federal fort and. 404 00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:35,440 Speaker 2: The relative unity. For example, New York. 405 00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:38,559 Speaker 3: State was very much a democratic city, and they did 406 00:24:38,559 --> 00:24:40,559 not they did not want the war. 407 00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:42,880 Speaker 2: They wanted the South to go peacefully. 408 00:24:42,799 --> 00:24:48,000 Speaker 3: Yes, because of their commercial ties with cotton and other commodities. 409 00:24:48,839 --> 00:24:54,440 Speaker 2: But city flipped overnight. And again it was very much 410 00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:55,079 like Harbor. 411 00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:57,480 Speaker 3: It was very united for that they were going to 412 00:24:57,559 --> 00:25:01,640 take people in the South a lesson and a brief 413 00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:07,000 and glorious encounter with this would result in teaching them 414 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:11,359 all less than the thing would be fun. Of course, 415 00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:17,480 four years later seven hundred said, wasn't quite so brief 416 00:25:17,519 --> 00:25:18,839 and wonderful an encounter. 417 00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:22,680 Speaker 2: But both sides. Both sides thought that the war would 418 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:26,720 be very brief, and each would and both were terribly wrong. 419 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:29,640 Speaker 1: Wow, you have got to come back to this show 420 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:32,440 anytime in the future. I love your passion for history. 421 00:25:32,559 --> 00:25:35,400 We need history. It's everything that I really try to 422 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:37,920 put my shoes into. Is that. Just step into the 423 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:41,319 history and start learning about today, because tomorrow can't happen 424 00:25:41,319 --> 00:25:42,440 without people like yourself. 425 00:25:42,519 --> 00:25:46,039 Speaker 3: Sir, Well, you're very kind of saying that I'd love 426 00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:48,599 to come back, have some time for me. 427 00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:50,799 Speaker 1: Where can people go to find out more about you 428 00:25:50,839 --> 00:25:53,200 because you talk about your history and how you've written 429 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:55,480 so much. I really want them to know who you 430 00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:57,720 are and why you do what you do. 431 00:25:59,400 --> 00:25:59,599 Speaker 2: Well. 432 00:25:59,599 --> 00:26:03,559 Speaker 3: This this is my fourth book. The first book is 433 00:26:03,599 --> 00:26:08,960 about a wonderful man named Myron Taylor, which is entitled 434 00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:13,119 The mand Nobody Knew. He's completely one of the most 435 00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:17,519 important people of the twentieth century. We you and I 436 00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:22,440 German today if it weren't for mister Taylor, just. 437 00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:24,839 Speaker 2: Consequentially he was. 438 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:27,880 Speaker 3: The second book I wrote is a book called the 439 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:33,720 Worst Supreme Court Dissions Ever, which for many people but 440 00:26:33,839 --> 00:26:39,279 timely time they ring it. The third book book called 441 00:26:39,519 --> 00:26:44,440 Law in American History Mine, and that's looking at important 442 00:26:44,519 --> 00:26:51,440 episodes where law and American history. For example, you think 443 00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:56,400 you know what jo j simple, actually don't. I'm the 444 00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:58,079 first person who's actually written. 445 00:26:57,799 --> 00:26:59,519 Speaker 2: About the chap equity. 446 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:06,079 Speaker 3: But the sixty nine from a trial lawyer's standpoint, if 447 00:27:06,079 --> 00:27:08,599 you want to know actual who killed Jack Kennedy? Why 448 00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:14,319 the answers in my book Algier hisss very important trader 449 00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:15,079 in our history. 450 00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:18,359 Speaker 2: Did he get justice or was he railroaded? That's the 451 00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:19,319 answer in that book. 452 00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:27,160 Speaker 3: So those are sort of again stories that are really 453 00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:31,160 well known or are miss mistold. I mean, the amount 454 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:36,480 of misinformation the public about the Kennedy assassination is just astonishing, 455 00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:41,759 how many lies and mysbruser out there about that. As 456 00:27:41,799 --> 00:27:46,319 I said, the next book, which I'm just finishing, but Johnston. 457 00:27:47,599 --> 00:27:48,079 Speaker 2: Fascinating. 458 00:27:49,519 --> 00:27:53,880 Speaker 3: And then my next next book after is about George Patton, 459 00:27:55,839 --> 00:27:59,839 and that's a different story not been written about, which 460 00:27:59,880 --> 00:28:07,279 is that patent, This idiosyncratic, brilliant military genius literally spent 461 00:28:07,319 --> 00:28:12,079 his entire career at war with the US military because 462 00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:18,440 he was a pretty difficult guy to get along with. IM. Yeah, 463 00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:27,240 here Fremadonna type in the most bureaucratic structure that's ever existed, 464 00:28:27,279 --> 00:28:30,400 the US Army, and I'm going to be looking at 465 00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:33,720 his relate. It's a book talking about his career based 466 00:28:33,799 --> 00:28:40,440 upon his relationship with Eisenhower, George Marshall, all these people, 467 00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:46,640 and how he had Bob and Wee and overcome some 468 00:28:46,759 --> 00:28:52,039 unfairness but partly his own problems to emerge as the 469 00:28:52,079 --> 00:28:54,680 guy who helped US win World War two in Europe. 470 00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:57,559 Speaker 1: Wow, I can't wait to talk to you about those books. 471 00:28:57,599 --> 00:28:59,559 So you've got to come back to this show now, now, 472 00:28:59,599 --> 00:29:01,240 that you've me up. Now we have to have a 473 00:29:01,279 --> 00:29:03,079 payoff when those books are ready to rock. 474 00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:06,559 Speaker 2: I'm ready. Whenever you say. 475 00:29:06,119 --> 00:29:08,720 Speaker 1: Excellent, will you be brilliant today? Okay sir? 476 00:29:09,359 --> 00:29:11,000 Speaker 2: Okay, Well, thanks so much for your time. This has 477 00:29:11,039 --> 00:29:11,400 been fun.