WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.560 --> 00:00:04.040 Well, we were hoping on a Monday edition of the 2 00:00:04.080 --> 00:00:08.039 program to be previewing a game seven tonight between the 3 00:00:08.119 --> 00:00:11.320 Knicks and the Pacers at Madison Square Garden at Midtown, Manhattan. 4 00:00:12.039 --> 00:00:14.279 But that MSG is dark tonight unless they have a 5 00:00:14.320 --> 00:00:18.559 concert or whatever's going on, there's no basketball. NBA Finals 6 00:00:18.559 --> 00:00:20.800 begin on Thursday. Let's do some NBA with our next 7 00:00:20.800 --> 00:00:23.320 guest on a Monday. Tom Haverstrow, Buddy, how are. 8 00:00:23.160 --> 00:00:25.280 You doing good? How are you? 9 00:00:25.359 --> 00:00:28.600 I'm good, I'm good. So let's let's be let's be 10 00:00:28.679 --> 00:00:31.679 reductive right off the start. Why are we not previewing 11 00:00:31.719 --> 00:00:34.119 eight game seven tonight between the Knicks and the Pacers. 12 00:00:34.880 --> 00:00:36.880 Well, the defense of the Knicks just couldn't keep up 13 00:00:36.920 --> 00:00:42.280 with the Pacers. Karl Anthony Towns and Mitchell Robinson as 14 00:00:42.359 --> 00:00:45.600 your rim protectors. It didn't bode well for the Knicks. 15 00:00:45.640 --> 00:00:48.280 They've got Jalen Brunton and Karl Anthony Towns, who are 16 00:00:48.280 --> 00:00:53.159 two one way superstars. They are superstar offensive players, but 17 00:00:53.399 --> 00:00:57.880 defensively Josh hart ogn and Obie mckel bridges and Mitchell 18 00:00:57.920 --> 00:01:00.159 Robinson to a lesser degree, he was coming up off 19 00:01:00.159 --> 00:01:03.039 the bench for most of the season. Those three wing 20 00:01:03.119 --> 00:01:08.079 guys were supposed to be more than enough defensively to 21 00:01:08.200 --> 00:01:11.400 cover up and hide Jalen Brunton and Karl Anthony Towns. 22 00:01:11.760 --> 00:01:14.200 But you can't. 23 00:01:14.280 --> 00:01:18.920 Excuse Karl Anthony Towns having one block in that entire 24 00:01:19.000 --> 00:01:24.000 conference finals. It just can't happen. And it's the first 25 00:01:24.000 --> 00:01:28.239 time that we've seen a player that size in the 26 00:01:28.280 --> 00:01:32.000 conference finals, play that many minutes and have that few 27 00:01:32.159 --> 00:01:37.000 number of blocks. It's just very difficult to win when 28 00:01:37.079 --> 00:01:42.439 your best center is not a rim protector and a 29 00:01:42.439 --> 00:01:45.920 good defender. Now Nikola Jokic gets away with that. He's 30 00:01:45.920 --> 00:01:48.799 not as soft as Karl Anthony Towns. 31 00:01:48.640 --> 00:01:49.719 Is as a rim protector. 32 00:01:50.359 --> 00:01:54.519 The defense for the Knicks was really their undoing is 33 00:01:54.519 --> 00:01:57.319 that they just were not able to get enough scoring 34 00:01:58.159 --> 00:02:00.439 in order to compensate for that end of the floor, 35 00:02:00.480 --> 00:02:04.359 and the Pacers they moved the ball, they'd exploit matchups. 36 00:02:04.760 --> 00:02:10.400 Pascal Siakam, Tyrese Haliburn were excellent at creating mismatches and 37 00:02:10.479 --> 00:02:13.240 taking advantage of the Knick slow defense. You know, like 38 00:02:13.319 --> 00:02:16.479 Karl Anthony Towns, how many times was he jogging back 39 00:02:16.520 --> 00:02:19.000 on defense or complaining about a foul call on his 40 00:02:19.080 --> 00:02:21.719 back and the Pacers just ran him out of the 41 00:02:21.759 --> 00:02:26.919 gym and ultimately og Ananobi Josh Hart mckel bridges had 42 00:02:26.960 --> 00:02:30.319 to hit shots had to be not just d but 43 00:02:30.400 --> 00:02:33.719 also the three, and they couldn't do it. So the 44 00:02:33.719 --> 00:02:38.280 Indiana Pacers move on after being the This is a 45 00:02:38.360 --> 00:02:44.319 crazy stat the Indiana Pacers. Before this season, sportsbooks had 46 00:02:44.360 --> 00:02:47.439 projected that the New Orleans Pelicans would have a better 47 00:02:47.520 --> 00:02:50.280 shot at making the NBA Finals than the Indiana Pacers. 48 00:02:51.599 --> 00:02:55.479 So that is how much of an underdog this Pacers team. 49 00:02:55.479 --> 00:02:58.240 Even though they went to the Eastern Conference Finals, they 50 00:02:58.240 --> 00:03:01.240 were just I think it was plus twenty to win 51 00:03:01.280 --> 00:03:05.000 the East and make it to the NBA Finals. And 52 00:03:05.080 --> 00:03:08.199 when you compare their title ads, they had the same 53 00:03:08.719 --> 00:03:11.120 or worse title ods than the New Orleans Pelicans. So 54 00:03:11.159 --> 00:03:15.120 this really is one of the most unlikely NBA Finals matchups, 55 00:03:15.159 --> 00:03:17.599 and that's mostly coming from that East side with the 56 00:03:17.599 --> 00:03:18.719 Indiana Pacers. 57 00:03:19.000 --> 00:03:22.000 Your point about the next defense is spot on, and 58 00:03:22.080 --> 00:03:25.280 that's that's the thing that I've been talking about on 59 00:03:25.360 --> 00:03:28.280 the show because the two games where they guarded, they won, 60 00:03:28.719 --> 00:03:31.800 but they only guarded for two games, Tom, And you 61 00:03:31.800 --> 00:03:34.800 know I said on Friday before we signed off, prior 62 00:03:34.840 --> 00:03:38.400 to that game, six on Saturday. Like, I know that 63 00:03:39.280 --> 00:03:41.800 the Pacers were getting you know, a lot of a 64 00:03:41.840 --> 00:03:44.280 lot of credit, a lot of love for their shot making. 65 00:03:44.360 --> 00:03:47.120 The game one comeback where Nie Smith went crazy. You 66 00:03:47.199 --> 00:03:50.199 go back and watch the final few minutes. The Nie 67 00:03:50.199 --> 00:03:53.680 Smith shots were practice shots. He was stepping into mostly 68 00:03:53.719 --> 00:03:57.240 wide open threes. Given credit for turning into Ray Allen circu. 69 00:03:57.360 --> 00:04:01.680 Nineteen ninety eight or whatever. But I don't fully understand 70 00:04:01.680 --> 00:04:05.240 how a team who's head coach is all defense was 71 00:04:05.639 --> 00:04:09.000 such a sieve on that side of the floor more 72 00:04:09.039 --> 00:04:09.520 often than not. 73 00:04:09.680 --> 00:04:11.719 And I do think it comes down to cat. I 74 00:04:11.759 --> 00:04:13.960 do think you have a cat problem. Now. 75 00:04:14.039 --> 00:04:17.040 I also will say the cat was better in this 76 00:04:17.160 --> 00:04:20.360 playoff run than I've ever seen him play in playoff basketball. 77 00:04:20.519 --> 00:04:23.319 I don't want to make this like I'm only crushing Cat. 78 00:04:23.959 --> 00:04:25.759 But you look at their books, Tom, They've got their 79 00:04:25.759 --> 00:04:27.360 five million guys signed for a while. 80 00:04:28.120 --> 00:04:29.759 But I don't know. 81 00:04:29.800 --> 00:04:31.480 I think you do need to figure something out with 82 00:04:31.560 --> 00:04:34.959 Karl Anthony Towns because he just does not play defense 83 00:04:35.439 --> 00:04:39.120 and commits some of the dumbest fouls that I've ever 84 00:04:39.160 --> 00:04:41.319 seen watching NBA basketball. 85 00:04:41.319 --> 00:04:43.759 So if you're Leon Rose and you look. 86 00:04:43.600 --> 00:04:45.839 At a season that I think a little bit is 87 00:04:45.879 --> 00:04:48.160 twenty dollars in the back pocket of jeans that you 88 00:04:48.199 --> 00:04:50.519 pull out of the dryer because you did get to 89 00:04:50.560 --> 00:04:53.480 the Eastern Conference Finals. You did block Boston from winning 90 00:04:53.480 --> 00:04:56.839 a championship. But I don't know that this group has 91 00:04:57.160 --> 00:05:00.360 more in them than what we saw. I don't know 92 00:05:00.399 --> 00:05:02.959 that this is an NBA Finals group. I don't know 93 00:05:02.959 --> 00:05:04.319 that I would pick them to make it back to 94 00:05:04.319 --> 00:05:05.800 the Eastern Conference Finals next year. 95 00:05:05.800 --> 00:05:07.639 What does the offseason look like in New York Town? 96 00:05:08.480 --> 00:05:10.800 Well, the tough thing here is a couple of things. One, 97 00:05:11.120 --> 00:05:13.319 they put in five first round picks and cleaned out 98 00:05:13.360 --> 00:05:15.920 their cover to first round picks tradable first round picks 99 00:05:15.920 --> 00:05:16.879 to get mckel bridges. 100 00:05:16.920 --> 00:05:19.480 And he just wasn't good enough to justify that price tech. 101 00:05:20.279 --> 00:05:20.920 He just wasn't. 102 00:05:22.519 --> 00:05:26.199 He was softer defensively, not as physical as you would 103 00:05:26.199 --> 00:05:30.600 want someone point of attack defender. He's a guy who 104 00:05:30.639 --> 00:05:32.480 loved the mid range and hit a bunch of mid 105 00:05:32.519 --> 00:05:35.639 range shots, but became kind of Ben Simmons esque yips. 106 00:05:36.079 --> 00:05:37.879 He and Josh Hart just did not want to take 107 00:05:37.879 --> 00:05:41.959 a layup, and for that you gave up five first 108 00:05:42.000 --> 00:05:45.759 round picks. And the only tradable first round pick that 109 00:05:45.800 --> 00:05:49.959 you have is Washington's top eight protected pick next year, 110 00:05:50.560 --> 00:05:54.040 and that's almost certainly not going to convey. And then 111 00:05:54.079 --> 00:05:56.879 it becomes two second round picks. So really, the Nicks 112 00:05:56.920 --> 00:05:58.920 don't have any tradable first round picks. They have a 113 00:05:58.959 --> 00:06:02.759 couple swaps that they can do. But when let's say 114 00:06:03.160 --> 00:06:08.800 you're offering the Milwaukee Bucks Karl Anthony Towns and two pickswaps, well, 115 00:06:09.040 --> 00:06:12.279 when you're acquiring Jannis Anadakumpo, how valuable is a pick 116 00:06:12.360 --> 00:06:15.879 swap if you're offering it to to you know, Milwaukee 117 00:06:15.879 --> 00:06:18.000 as a as a as a carrot in that trade. 118 00:06:18.160 --> 00:06:21.759 Milwaukee looks at that and says, I really, how much? 119 00:06:22.480 --> 00:06:23.360 What are the odds that. 120 00:06:23.360 --> 00:06:26.160 We're going to say, Yeah, the Knicks with Jalen Brunson, 121 00:06:26.240 --> 00:06:30.680 Michel Bridges, O g n andob and and and and 122 00:06:30.759 --> 00:06:35.879 Jannis Enatakumpo are going to have a worse team than 123 00:06:35.920 --> 00:06:38.199 the Milwaukee Bucks with Karl nthing Town. So it's like 124 00:06:38.639 --> 00:06:41.920 you look at a potential blockbuster trade, you put it 125 00:06:41.959 --> 00:06:45.920 on the on the table for for Jannisanda to coompo. 126 00:06:45.959 --> 00:06:50.519 If Janis even wants out of Milwaukee, Leon Rose has 127 00:06:50.600 --> 00:06:55.639 to a convince Jannisana da Cumpo that the New York 128 00:06:55.720 --> 00:06:59.680 Knicks are the team for him. He's not a CAAA client. 129 00:07:00.279 --> 00:07:03.639 And we've talked about this before, is that the New 130 00:07:03.720 --> 00:07:09.720 York Knicks have aligned themselves with Leon Rose's former agency CIA. 131 00:07:09.920 --> 00:07:13.319 He used to run the basketball side of CIA, and 132 00:07:13.439 --> 00:07:16.000 his rolodex is super deep in terms of the clients 133 00:07:16.040 --> 00:07:18.759 that he had in the NBA, including Lebron James and 134 00:07:18.839 --> 00:07:21.879 Dwayne Wade. You go on down the list, he had 135 00:07:21.920 --> 00:07:26.079 an incredible stable of NBA players on his list. Karl 136 00:07:26.079 --> 00:07:28.519 Anthony Towns might have been the most lucrative. One of 137 00:07:28.519 --> 00:07:31.240 all is that when you look at the contract that 138 00:07:31.360 --> 00:07:36.399 he signed, Leon Rose was the biggest benefactor there and 139 00:07:36.439 --> 00:07:38.680 it was his largest client when he was on the 140 00:07:38.759 --> 00:07:43.560 agency side. But Jannis is at Octagon and so the 141 00:07:43.639 --> 00:07:46.480 CIA link that he has with Jalen Brunson, his son, 142 00:07:47.040 --> 00:07:52.480 Leon Rose's son is Jalen Brunson's agent at CIA, Sam Rose. 143 00:07:52.879 --> 00:07:55.759 If you look at. 144 00:07:54.800 --> 00:07:57.920 Og Annobi CIA, if you look at Josh Hart CIA, 145 00:07:58.040 --> 00:08:01.639 Karl Anthony town CIA, the New York Knicks have allocated 146 00:08:01.639 --> 00:08:03.879 one hundred and thirty million dollars of their payroll this 147 00:08:03.959 --> 00:08:07.199 year to CIA clients at the largest sum in the 148 00:08:07.319 --> 00:08:12.720 NBA for any team an agency. So it's very closely aligned. 149 00:08:12.800 --> 00:08:16.040 The bonds between CIA and the Knicks are very strong, right, 150 00:08:17.040 --> 00:08:19.959 So you got to convince Jannis, hey, we are the 151 00:08:20.000 --> 00:08:22.680 team for you. If you want out of Milwaukee, we 152 00:08:22.759 --> 00:08:25.759 are the team for you. But that's not the hard part. 153 00:08:25.920 --> 00:08:26.680 I wrote for. 154 00:08:27.040 --> 00:08:30.360 Yahoo Sports yesterday in a column. The hard part for 155 00:08:30.439 --> 00:08:33.639 Leon Rhodes, are you really going to portray Karl Anthony 156 00:08:33.679 --> 00:08:38.399 Towns like that? He was Karl Anthony Towns' agent before 157 00:08:38.440 --> 00:08:41.799 he was picked number one overall. He was close with 158 00:08:41.879 --> 00:08:45.679 Karl Anthony Towns and war Why West. When Karl Anthon 159 00:08:45.799 --> 00:08:51.039 Towns decided to go play for the national team, the 160 00:08:51.080 --> 00:08:55.840 Dominican national team, the coach was John Calipari, who then 161 00:08:55.960 --> 00:08:58.799 coached him at Kentucky. Like, they're very close and they 162 00:08:58.840 --> 00:09:02.159 go way back, right. So, now that you're on the Knicks, 163 00:09:02.399 --> 00:09:04.480 is Leon Rose going to be able to look at 164 00:09:04.519 --> 00:09:06.399 Karl Anthony Towns and say we're going to trade you 165 00:09:07.120 --> 00:09:09.759 to Milwaukee for Yiannis. That's going to be a tough proposition. 166 00:09:09.919 --> 00:09:12.000 Even if Joannie is like, I want to go to 167 00:09:12.039 --> 00:09:15.240 the Knicks. Leon Rose has to just like say, all right, 168 00:09:15.440 --> 00:09:18.039 this is a tough decision for me, but I am 169 00:09:18.120 --> 00:09:19.279 going to send you to Milwaukee. 170 00:09:19.279 --> 00:09:19.960 That's gonna be tough. 171 00:09:20.320 --> 00:09:23.000 The other thing is like KD. What happens with KD. 172 00:09:23.120 --> 00:09:26.440 You know his rich Climban, his agent is the New 173 00:09:26.519 --> 00:09:30.720 York guy, and KD if everyone expects him to be 174 00:09:32.000 --> 00:09:37.840 on the market this summer, whether it's Minnesota or somewhere else, Houston, Miami, 175 00:09:38.279 --> 00:09:42.159 New York, New York again, Karl Anthony Towns would have 176 00:09:42.279 --> 00:09:45.799 to go. As is that trade money wise, you have 177 00:09:45.799 --> 00:09:48.279 to bring in a three team deal, and that might 178 00:09:48.320 --> 00:09:51.080 be a possibility. And the way that you might you 179 00:09:51.200 --> 00:09:53.399 might argue, if you're the Knicks, all right, we get 180 00:09:53.480 --> 00:09:56.360 KD and we get off of Karl Anthony Towns's long 181 00:09:56.440 --> 00:09:59.279 term money. We're going to able to get a better 182 00:09:59.559 --> 00:10:02.480 center to go next to KD, who probably can't guard 183 00:10:02.519 --> 00:10:05.440 four as consistently at this age. But you get up 184 00:10:05.480 --> 00:10:07.360 the long term money because right now he's going to 185 00:10:07.360 --> 00:10:10.480 be an expiring deal next year. If Leon Rose looks 186 00:10:10.480 --> 00:10:13.759 at this and says, all right, maybe. 187 00:10:13.360 --> 00:10:16.200 I don't trade you to Milwaukee, but you get. 188 00:10:16.039 --> 00:10:18.759 To reunite with Devin Booker and Phoenix he gets to 189 00:10:18.759 --> 00:10:21.960 take care of his client. There there's other options for 190 00:10:22.000 --> 00:10:22.519 the Knicks. 191 00:10:22.960 --> 00:10:23.799 They run it back. 192 00:10:24.360 --> 00:10:27.720 Maybe they move mckel Bridges to Dallas or somewhere else where. 193 00:10:27.720 --> 00:10:30.960 They can move mckel and try to get maybe Daniel 194 00:10:31.039 --> 00:10:35.480 Gafford and Caleb Martin from Dallas and Dallas upgrades on 195 00:10:35.519 --> 00:10:38.919 the point of attack defense next to Anthony Davis. 196 00:10:38.919 --> 00:10:39.360 And we know. 197 00:10:41.879 --> 00:10:44.799 Nico Harrison, we know he wants defense wins championships, and 198 00:10:44.879 --> 00:10:46.679 right now their point of attack defense is like Klay 199 00:10:46.720 --> 00:10:49.000 Thompson and Cooper Flack. I don't think that that's going 200 00:10:49.039 --> 00:10:50.639 to work out for them this year if they want 201 00:10:50.639 --> 00:10:52.480 to win, and so maybe you propose that trade. But 202 00:10:52.519 --> 00:10:56.799 even then it's very likely Spence, that the Knicks just 203 00:10:56.840 --> 00:10:58.039 decide to run this back. 204 00:10:58.440 --> 00:11:00.919 I think Knicks fans would love to have you. I 205 00:11:00.919 --> 00:11:02.679 think they would love to have KD. 206 00:11:03.559 --> 00:11:09.080 But it requires a CIA team to trade away their 207 00:11:09.120 --> 00:11:13.840 top caa guy in Karl Anthony Towns. And that's it matters. 208 00:11:13.879 --> 00:11:17.960 More than people realize, is these relationships over time, and 209 00:11:18.039 --> 00:11:20.919 Leon Rose has always been a very loyal guy. Uh 210 00:11:21.120 --> 00:11:25.440 Jalen Brunson's father, Rick Brunson, was his first client, NBA 211 00:11:25.559 --> 00:11:28.519 client and now he's the coach for Tom Thibodaux, another 212 00:11:28.559 --> 00:11:31.559 CIA client, so this of course gets his son to 213 00:11:31.559 --> 00:11:34.919 be the star in New York. These bonds are very strong, 214 00:11:35.320 --> 00:11:38.000 and if they are going to upgrade next season, it's 215 00:11:38.039 --> 00:11:41.320 gonna mean that the CAA link is going to be tested. 216 00:11:41.919 --> 00:11:45.960 And with Karl Anthony Towns, the CIA client, Josh hart, 217 00:11:45.960 --> 00:11:49.360 ogn Andobi and Jalen Brunton all CA guys, I mean, 218 00:11:49.679 --> 00:11:52.399 are they gonna be willing to move one of those 219 00:11:52.440 --> 00:11:54.879 guys to upgrade the roster or are they just gonna say, look, 220 00:11:54.879 --> 00:11:58.159 we're gonna run it back next year and we're going 221 00:11:58.240 --> 00:12:01.080 to improve. Everyone's got to improve in different ways. And 222 00:12:01.120 --> 00:12:03.639 that's what the Knicks are looking at, is I mean, 223 00:12:04.200 --> 00:12:07.759 is Karl Anthony Towns the guy or do you move 224 00:12:07.840 --> 00:12:10.960 him to try to get a superstar in KD and Yannis? 225 00:12:11.000 --> 00:12:12.799 So that's really what's on the table for them is 226 00:12:13.360 --> 00:12:14.759 I mean, we don't know that Giannis is going to 227 00:12:14.799 --> 00:12:17.600 be a trade target this summer, but I can tell 228 00:12:17.639 --> 00:12:21.879 you every team does these contingencies after the season. Is 229 00:12:21.919 --> 00:12:23.720 if we're going to upgrade this roster, how do we 230 00:12:23.759 --> 00:12:26.360 do it? And I wonder how willing they are in 231 00:12:26.440 --> 00:12:29.399 moving Karl Anthony Towns considered. I mean, he wore that 232 00:12:29.519 --> 00:12:32.919 jersey with so much pride and playing through that visibly 233 00:12:33.039 --> 00:12:34.600 playing through that that knee injury. 234 00:12:35.399 --> 00:12:39.000 But is the ceiling maybe. 235 00:12:38.879 --> 00:12:42.399 Eastern Conference semifinals and finals. If you have Karl Anthony 236 00:12:42.440 --> 00:12:45.519 Towns as you're starting four and maybe you're starting five, 237 00:12:46.360 --> 00:12:49.039 that's I mean, that's good. That's better than the Knicks 238 00:12:49.039 --> 00:12:51.000 have had in the last couple decades. But is it 239 00:12:51.080 --> 00:12:52.120 enough to win a championship? 240 00:12:52.120 --> 00:12:56.600 And I say no, Do we talk enough about how 241 00:12:56.679 --> 00:12:59.320 elite Rick Carlisle is. I mean, I was going over 242 00:12:59.360 --> 00:13:02.120 some of the stuff this morning, and look, I'm a 243 00:13:02.120 --> 00:13:04.519 big Tom Thibodeau guy, and Tom was an assistant for 244 00:13:04.639 --> 00:13:06.559 Jeff and so was able to get to know him. 245 00:13:06.559 --> 00:13:10.279 And to your point about where the Knicks find themselves now, 246 00:13:10.440 --> 00:13:13.919 it's so much better than anywhere they've been for decades 247 00:13:14.600 --> 00:13:16.639 that if you run it back and Tom's the guy, 248 00:13:16.720 --> 00:13:18.879 then I think most Nick fans would say, Okay, like 249 00:13:19.000 --> 00:13:21.360 sign me up. It's at least nice to have a 250 00:13:21.399 --> 00:13:24.559 team that's relevant as opposed to what it's been for 251 00:13:24.600 --> 00:13:27.279 a while. But I think I think Rick took him, 252 00:13:27.519 --> 00:13:29.240 took him to the cleaners I thought this was a 253 00:13:29.320 --> 00:13:31.480 series where Tom was out coached. I thought some of 254 00:13:31.480 --> 00:13:33.960 the challenges didn't look great early on. 255 00:13:35.799 --> 00:13:36.639 I don't know what sort of. 256 00:13:36.639 --> 00:13:39.559 Adjustments you make when it comes to Indiana's ability to 257 00:13:39.600 --> 00:13:42.840 get him down. But I'm just imagining Tom watching tape 258 00:13:42.840 --> 00:13:45.759 of Game six and seeing four runouts off of makes 259 00:13:45.879 --> 00:13:48.440 for dunks and layups, and he's going, what, like, what 260 00:13:48.480 --> 00:13:53.000 are we doing? So you know, Rick gets his championship 261 00:13:53.039 --> 00:13:56.480 with a twenty eleven Dallas Mavericks team that was interesting 262 00:13:57.320 --> 00:13:59.799 with Dirk being peaked Dirk. That was Jason Terry six 263 00:14:00.200 --> 00:14:03.279 the Year award, that was Tyson Chandler Defensive Player of 264 00:14:03.320 --> 00:14:05.960 the Year. But they won a couple of series where 265 00:14:06.000 --> 00:14:07.480 they were underdogs and they beat. 266 00:14:07.320 --> 00:14:08.519 The Heat in the finals. 267 00:14:09.000 --> 00:14:13.159 And now he has this group that nobody thought was 268 00:14:13.200 --> 00:14:17.279 gonna be relevant outside of maybe winning a series, and 269 00:14:17.320 --> 00:14:20.720 they're in the NBA Finals. I mean, I don't know, man, 270 00:14:20.759 --> 00:14:24.600 I feel like the maybe the public conversation surrounding Rick 271 00:14:24.639 --> 00:14:26.879 Carlisle needs to start sounding maybe a little bit different. 272 00:14:26.919 --> 00:14:27.600 Give me your thoughts. 273 00:14:28.080 --> 00:14:30.919 Well, the best ones always adapt. And it reminds me 274 00:14:30.960 --> 00:14:33.879 of Greg Popovich and how he regarded the three point 275 00:14:33.960 --> 00:14:38.679 line or regarded zone defense, or regarded different styles of play. 276 00:14:39.519 --> 00:14:42.320 And Rick Carlisle that twenty eleven team. I covered the 277 00:14:42.679 --> 00:14:46.320 NBA Finals in Miami, and it was amazing to watch 278 00:14:46.399 --> 00:14:51.799 this veteran team rally together. Sean Marion, derk Novisky, Jason Kidd, 279 00:14:53.559 --> 00:14:58.360 Karn Butler, like this is a very old team. This team, 280 00:14:58.440 --> 00:15:02.639 the Indiana Pacers, couldn't be more different. They're They're led 281 00:15:02.720 --> 00:15:07.200 by Tyrese Haliburton, only a few years into the NBA, 282 00:15:07.799 --> 00:15:10.440 and the average age on this team is barely twenty 283 00:15:10.480 --> 00:15:11.080 six years old. 284 00:15:11.200 --> 00:15:11.600 Or that that. 285 00:15:11.759 --> 00:15:16.440 That Dallas team in twenty eleven was a bunch of 286 00:15:16.519 --> 00:15:19.200 dudes whore at the end of their careers. And so 287 00:15:19.360 --> 00:15:23.399 the ability to adapt in the NBA as a coach 288 00:15:24.200 --> 00:15:27.000 is something that I think is in direct contrast to 289 00:15:27.000 --> 00:15:29.919 Tom Thibodeaux this series where you know, you look at 290 00:15:29.919 --> 00:15:31.840 Tibbs and Tis TIBs. 291 00:15:31.399 --> 00:15:32.279 For better or for worse. 292 00:15:33.639 --> 00:15:37.080 But he played that five man lineup all season long 293 00:15:37.120 --> 00:15:43.039 about forty minutes a game. Basically the Brunson Michel Hart 294 00:15:43.480 --> 00:15:46.600 and Nobi and Karl Anthony Town started them and played 295 00:15:46.600 --> 00:15:49.919 them into the ground and they never got to a 296 00:15:49.960 --> 00:15:53.039 good defense. They never did and then in Game three 297 00:15:53.159 --> 00:15:55.559 he had to switch up and put Mitchell Robinson into 298 00:15:55.559 --> 00:15:58.200 the starting lineup, and I got to give it to 299 00:15:58.240 --> 00:16:01.519 TIBs like he did expand the pitation and he did 300 00:16:01.559 --> 00:16:03.919 make that lineup change, But it did feel like a 301 00:16:03.919 --> 00:16:08.919 little bit too late, a little not enough. When you 302 00:16:08.960 --> 00:16:13.519 talk about how stubborn Tom Thibodeau is, or I guess 303 00:16:13.559 --> 00:16:17.120 just hard headed when it comes to who his guys 304 00:16:17.120 --> 00:16:19.679 are and what his beliefs are, it seemed like Rick 305 00:16:19.720 --> 00:16:22.080 Carlo in the opposite direction all year. It was like, 306 00:16:22.320 --> 00:16:26.799 we're gonna win by playing up tempo and running teams 307 00:16:26.799 --> 00:16:29.720 out of the gym with a deep roster, and we 308 00:16:29.759 --> 00:16:32.840 are going to no matter what stay tued or our 309 00:16:32.919 --> 00:16:36.440 playing style, and not rely on two guys to win 310 00:16:36.519 --> 00:16:39.000 us games. We're gonna rely on Nie Smith is gonna 311 00:16:39.000 --> 00:16:42.080 win us a few games, nemhar You saw him in 312 00:16:42.120 --> 00:16:45.440 game six, how well he played in Game six, and 313 00:16:45.480 --> 00:16:48.919 how well he played in previous series. This is a 314 00:16:48.960 --> 00:16:53.080 team that really just believed Rick Carlile believed in these 315 00:16:53.159 --> 00:16:56.080 role players to play like stars when they needed to, 316 00:16:56.279 --> 00:16:59.759 and unfortunately, on the Nick's side, the role players just 317 00:16:59.799 --> 00:17:00.440 felt apart. 318 00:17:00.960 --> 00:17:01.759 I mean, Duce. 319 00:17:01.600 --> 00:17:09.000 McBride the og McHale Josh Hart. They did not step up, 320 00:17:09.039 --> 00:17:11.880 whereas the Indiana Pacers and the belief that Rick Carlo 321 00:17:11.880 --> 00:17:14.279 imbued in these guys. It really did seem like two 322 00:17:14.559 --> 00:17:17.000 very different coaches on different ends of the ends of 323 00:17:17.039 --> 00:17:20.359 the spectrum. And you know, fourteen years ago, when the 324 00:17:20.400 --> 00:17:23.000 Dallas Mavericks are winning the championship, and I told you 325 00:17:23.039 --> 00:17:25.480 that in twenty twenty five, the Indiana Pacers are going 326 00:17:25.519 --> 00:17:29.319 to win the East. I can't imagine you're gonna say, 327 00:17:29.400 --> 00:17:32.279 Rick Carlisle is gonna be the architect of one of 328 00:17:32.279 --> 00:17:35.160 the best offenses in the NBA with a team that 329 00:17:35.279 --> 00:17:37.240 just runs teams out of the gym like seven seconds 330 00:17:37.319 --> 00:17:39.200 or less. But that's what Rick Carlisle did, and I 331 00:17:39.240 --> 00:17:43.440 really appreciate how he's been able to adapt as a coach. 332 00:17:44.400 --> 00:17:48.400 Indiana's consolation prize for making the NBA Finals is a 333 00:17:48.440 --> 00:17:51.079 matchup with a team right now, Tom that just feels 334 00:17:51.119 --> 00:17:54.519 like they've found a little something, well, not just found something. 335 00:17:54.559 --> 00:17:56.119 They've been historic all year. 336 00:17:56.200 --> 00:18:00.519 But I was resident, I should say hesitant and reticent 337 00:18:00.680 --> 00:18:03.079 as I canbine those two words in one question to 338 00:18:03.359 --> 00:18:05.759 just anoint them, because I'd never seen them make a 339 00:18:05.799 --> 00:18:08.680 long playoff run and then jokes on me because they're 340 00:18:08.720 --> 00:18:11.599 just they're everything you want and they've been able to 341 00:18:11.640 --> 00:18:14.039 stay healthy, which this time of year is a massive thing. 342 00:18:14.839 --> 00:18:18.359 So what sort of chance do you give Indiana to 343 00:18:18.440 --> 00:18:20.079 make the NBA Finals interesting? 344 00:18:20.079 --> 00:18:21.920 And with Shay the MVP on. 345 00:18:21.920 --> 00:18:26.000 One side, I am blown away with how many players 346 00:18:26.039 --> 00:18:29.039 Mark Dagnold has at his disposal. I heard somebody use 347 00:18:29.079 --> 00:18:31.680 the term he's like a starting pitcher with six different pitches. 348 00:18:31.759 --> 00:18:34.759 I mean he can he can bring whatever the night needs. 349 00:18:34.759 --> 00:18:36.759 He can say, how do you want to play? Okay, 350 00:18:36.799 --> 00:18:39.559 that's fine, we'll beat you playing that way too. So 351 00:18:39.680 --> 00:18:42.000 can Indiana make this interesting or does it feel like 352 00:18:42.039 --> 00:18:45.920 it's pretty overwhelming in Oklahoma City's favor. 353 00:18:47.480 --> 00:18:50.440 Barring injury, they have a slim to none chance of 354 00:18:50.519 --> 00:18:53.960 making this a serious Yeah. Okay, See, he's just that good. 355 00:18:54.319 --> 00:18:58.759 When you look at the regular season point differential between 356 00:18:58.799 --> 00:19:01.720 these two teams, it's one of the largest we've ever seen, 357 00:19:01.720 --> 00:19:04.160 if not the largest, in NBA history, And in terms 358 00:19:04.160 --> 00:19:07.599 of the finals matchups like the Thunder had one of 359 00:19:07.640 --> 00:19:11.480 the biggest points differentials meeting. They outscored the opponent by 360 00:19:11.519 --> 00:19:15.559 over twelve points a game in every game this season 361 00:19:16.119 --> 00:19:20.200 on average about twelve points a game. The Pacers were 362 00:19:20.200 --> 00:19:23.839 good this regular season, winning fifty games. But when you 363 00:19:23.880 --> 00:19:29.039 look at what the Pacers like to do, the Thunder 364 00:19:29.079 --> 00:19:32.759 are well well equipped to match that. You know, the 365 00:19:32.799 --> 00:19:36.440 Thunder do not turn over the ball. And the Indiana 366 00:19:36.480 --> 00:19:39.079 Pacers are a team that really likes to run out, 367 00:19:39.119 --> 00:19:42.640 like you said, get out and transition and take advantage 368 00:19:42.640 --> 00:19:44.519 of a team that can be careless with the ball. 369 00:19:44.559 --> 00:19:46.559 And the Thunder just do not turn over the ball. 370 00:19:47.160 --> 00:19:50.400 And they're well coached. And I just think that this 371 00:19:50.480 --> 00:19:53.359 is a team the Thunder with all their weapons, and 372 00:19:53.400 --> 00:19:56.559 how much rest they've gotten coming into this series, how 373 00:19:56.640 --> 00:19:59.799 healthy they are coming into this series, how confident they 374 00:19:59.839 --> 00:20:04.799 are coming into this series. They just dismantled the Minnesota 375 00:20:04.839 --> 00:20:07.640 Timberwolves that were a top three defense in the in 376 00:20:07.680 --> 00:20:10.720 the NBA this season. I just think that the Indiana 377 00:20:10.759 --> 00:20:13.240 Pacers are a really good story, a really good team. 378 00:20:13.559 --> 00:20:16.240 But the Thunder, and I've been hammering this and beating 379 00:20:16.279 --> 00:20:20.160 this drum all season long. This Thunder team is all 380 00:20:20.240 --> 00:20:23.640 time good, like all time good, like one of the 381 00:20:23.680 --> 00:20:26.319 ten best teams we've ever seen put together. And of 382 00:20:26.359 --> 00:20:30.519 course that final chapter of winning the NBA Finals will 383 00:20:30.559 --> 00:20:34.559 seal that. But I everything I've seen from this season 384 00:20:35.400 --> 00:20:37.240 has told me that this is one of the best 385 00:20:37.240 --> 00:20:39.880 teams we've ever seen. I mean, they've already won eighty 386 00:20:39.920 --> 00:20:42.519 games this year, and there's only three other teams in 387 00:20:42.599 --> 00:20:46.599 NBA history who have won more in a at this point. 388 00:20:46.799 --> 00:20:50.799 And it's like peak Jordan and peak Warriors. So this 389 00:20:50.880 --> 00:20:53.519 team is so good. I'm going with Okac in five. 390 00:20:54.119 --> 00:20:59.279 But honestly, my brain is telling me heat and four. 391 00:20:59.319 --> 00:21:01.599 I mean, Okac in four. 392 00:21:01.920 --> 00:21:03.319 Yeah, Like my brain. 393 00:21:03.119 --> 00:21:05.279 Is telling me, okay, see in four, but like my 394 00:21:05.400 --> 00:21:09.200 heart is saying, okay, see in five. But I really 395 00:21:09.240 --> 00:21:11.480 do believe that this could end up in a suitep 396 00:21:11.519 --> 00:21:14.720 I just if a name eight to paper, I'm probably 397 00:21:14.720 --> 00:21:15.960 gonna go Oka see in five. 398 00:21:16.400 --> 00:21:18.319 Yeah, I'm with you, man, all right, before I set 399 00:21:18.359 --> 00:21:22.119 you loose. Kind of a surprising piece of news. I mean, 400 00:21:22.160 --> 00:21:25.480 I hadn't caught wind of any rumors in this direction, 401 00:21:25.640 --> 00:21:28.519