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Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK every 45 00:02:26.039 --> 00:02:29.719 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 46 00:02:29.840 --> 00:02:34.039 infamous killers in true crime history True Murder with your 47 00:02:34.039 --> 00:02:47.599 host journalist and author Dan Zufanski, Good evening. 48 00:02:48.719 --> 00:02:52.560 Leonard Lake was greatly influenced by a book titled The Collector, 49 00:02:53.080 --> 00:02:55.439 where a man abducts a woman to keep forever as 50 00:02:55.439 --> 00:02:59.000 a sex slave. The book was fictional, but when Leonard 51 00:02:59.080 --> 00:03:04.000 Lake met Charles, they discussed abducting, enslaving and torturing women. 52 00:03:04.879 --> 00:03:10.080 They called their plan Operation Miranda. Matthew Roswally is the 53 00:03:10.159 --> 00:03:14.319 director of The Miranda Murders Lost Tapes of Leonard Lake 54 00:03:14.400 --> 00:03:18.280 and Charles Zing. His film depicts the horrible acts committed 55 00:03:18.280 --> 00:03:21.560 in northern California in the mid eighties, caught on film 56 00:03:21.599 --> 00:03:25.479 by the notorious killers themselves and recreated in an accurate 57 00:03:25.639 --> 00:03:30.159 linear fashion. Matthew is a writer, director, and actor from 58 00:03:30.199 --> 00:03:34.680 Los Angeles, California, and the film that we are featuring 59 00:03:35.039 --> 00:03:39.759 this evening is The Miranda Murders The Lost Tapes of 60 00:03:39.879 --> 00:03:43.479 Leonard Lake and Charles Zing, with my special guest, actor, 61 00:03:43.759 --> 00:03:48.280 director and writer Matthew Rossville. Welcome to the program, and 62 00:03:48.319 --> 00:03:51.439 thank you very much for a greet's interview. Matthew Rossveille, 63 00:03:52.840 --> 00:03:53.400 Thank you, Dan. 64 00:03:54.039 --> 00:03:54.719 Good to hear from you. 65 00:03:55.439 --> 00:03:57.759 Thank you very much. I hope I have pronounced your 66 00:03:57.800 --> 00:04:00.919 name correctly. I've been known to not do that. 67 00:04:02.319 --> 00:04:05.199 It's all good. My name is spelled weird, but the 68 00:04:05.240 --> 00:04:07.199 pronunciation is rose Valley. But thank you. 69 00:04:08.280 --> 00:04:10.919 Okay, Well now I know I won't do it again. 70 00:04:11.039 --> 00:04:16.680 Thank you very much. Should have asked. Now it's Matthew 71 00:04:16.800 --> 00:04:23.480 rose Valleys. Let's talk about your background that and why 72 00:04:23.759 --> 00:04:28.680 you were compelled to make this The Miranda Murders. 73 00:04:29.439 --> 00:04:32.000 Well, to give you some background about me, I am 74 00:04:32.199 --> 00:04:35.920 an actor from New York City that became a filmmaker 75 00:04:35.959 --> 00:04:39.160 and I moved to Hollywood and I hooked up with 76 00:04:39.560 --> 00:04:44.600 my producer who pitched me the idea of creating this film, 77 00:04:44.639 --> 00:04:47.600 which is a story that has not been told yet, 78 00:04:48.480 --> 00:04:51.000 and I felt like it was a story that needed 79 00:04:51.000 --> 00:04:55.040 to be told. So I agreed to it. And we 80 00:04:56.800 --> 00:05:02.480 spend some time traveling across the country in visiting various locations, 81 00:05:02.480 --> 00:05:07.199 specifically Willseyville, which is where the murders happened, and writing 82 00:05:07.560 --> 00:05:08.160 the project. 83 00:05:12.160 --> 00:05:17.240 Now, we just spoke off air about the actual tapes themselves. 84 00:05:17.480 --> 00:05:22.639 Tell us if you and your partner who actually viewed 85 00:05:22.680 --> 00:05:23.240 these tapes. 86 00:05:25.920 --> 00:05:30.160 Yes, my producer is really good at what he does, 87 00:05:30.199 --> 00:05:32.560 and he was able to get his hands on the 88 00:05:32.600 --> 00:05:33.480 original footage. 89 00:05:35.079 --> 00:05:35.319 Wow. 90 00:05:35.800 --> 00:05:40.079 Initially a lot of our original research. We watched the 91 00:05:40.279 --> 00:05:44.079 footage on YouTube, which is about, if I had to guess, 92 00:05:44.079 --> 00:05:48.759 about five minutes. We read the book Die for Me, 93 00:05:48.920 --> 00:05:52.839 which is a very detailed book on you know, the 94 00:05:52.839 --> 00:05:56.480 the murders themselves and what actually happened up there in 95 00:05:56.519 --> 00:06:00.959 northern California, and he was to get a hold of 96 00:06:01.000 --> 00:06:05.399 the rest of the footage, and we watched it and 97 00:06:05.480 --> 00:06:08.639 wanted to recreate it. That was the point of the film, 98 00:06:09.040 --> 00:06:14.240 to be able to recreate things that happened to these people, because, 99 00:06:15.759 --> 00:06:18.519 like I said, it's a story that has not been told. 100 00:06:19.720 --> 00:06:25.319 It's disappointing to know that these people have been forgotten. 101 00:06:25.439 --> 00:06:29.720 So we wanted to remember them by sharing what happened. 102 00:06:32.800 --> 00:06:35.279 You mentioned Die for Me by Don Lassiter, and that's 103 00:06:35.360 --> 00:06:37.160 been a best seller, and he was on the program 104 00:06:37.279 --> 00:06:39.240 right in the very beginning of True Murder back eight 105 00:06:39.319 --> 00:06:44.160 years ago. And yeah, and it's very familiar tru crime fans, 106 00:06:44.199 --> 00:06:47.040 the hardcore of tru crime fans know of this case. 107 00:06:47.160 --> 00:06:52.279 And these are amazing rather lack of word for a 108 00:06:52.399 --> 00:06:58.399 duo of killers. Certainly what story has not what story 109 00:06:58.439 --> 00:07:00.680 has not been told for those people that have read 110 00:07:00.680 --> 00:07:03.720 all this What story has not been told that you 111 00:07:03.759 --> 00:07:05.480 are prepared to tell in this film. 112 00:07:06.000 --> 00:07:11.920 Well, I'm referring to the medium of film, especially when 113 00:07:11.920 --> 00:07:15.920 it comes to true crime. You get people know about 114 00:07:16.480 --> 00:07:20.120 John Wayne Gacy and Ted Bundy and Jeffrey Dahmer. People 115 00:07:20.160 --> 00:07:25.160 don't know about what happened to these these victims in 116 00:07:25.199 --> 00:07:29.480 northern California of Leonard Bake and Charles Ringing and specifically 117 00:07:29.560 --> 00:07:32.879 with like I said, the media film. We wanted to 118 00:07:32.959 --> 00:07:42.720 express it because we wanted to show that these uh, 119 00:07:42.839 --> 00:07:44.600 these people are are not forgotten. 120 00:07:48.720 --> 00:07:53.920 Now you sorry, go ahead, Oh no, no, it's fine. 121 00:07:54.040 --> 00:07:55.800 I was just I was just gonna say, this is 122 00:07:55.839 --> 00:07:58.560 my medium. I mean, I mean, obviously the book is 123 00:07:58.920 --> 00:08:03.240 very in depth. It's book, but not everybody feeds anymore. 124 00:08:04.600 --> 00:08:10.759 I feel these days people tend to find entertainment through 125 00:08:10.959 --> 00:08:15.439 YouTube and the Internet, and we felt the need to 126 00:08:15.519 --> 00:08:19.439 express what happened on film. So that's what we did. 127 00:08:19.959 --> 00:08:23.240 We recreated the footage. We saw the film and decided, 128 00:08:23.360 --> 00:08:28.120 let's make a movie that is as accurate and as 129 00:08:28.160 --> 00:08:29.519 real as possible. 130 00:08:31.720 --> 00:08:33.799 And not to give too much away because this movie 131 00:08:33.919 --> 00:08:37.240 debut is October thirteenth. Tell Us also where this debut 132 00:08:37.320 --> 00:08:40.279 is very very interesting as well, tell us what the 133 00:08:40.279 --> 00:08:43.240 premiere date is, and tell us where people might find 134 00:08:43.279 --> 00:08:46.679 this once they listen to this interview and are compelled 135 00:08:46.720 --> 00:08:48.000 to check it out. 136 00:08:50.039 --> 00:08:54.600 Certainly, it's going to release on Amazon Crime and Amazon 137 00:08:54.679 --> 00:08:58.240 it's in video, so you can rent or buy it, 138 00:08:58.600 --> 00:09:02.840 or if you have Amazon Prime, you can streaming. And 139 00:09:02.879 --> 00:09:04.879 that's the way of new media. I mean, it's super 140 00:09:04.879 --> 00:09:08.279 interesting because I was. I was an avid DVD collector 141 00:09:08.279 --> 00:09:09.919 back in the day. I'm sure many of you people 142 00:09:10.039 --> 00:09:14.120 are watching might have been still even BHS collectors. I 143 00:09:14.240 --> 00:09:19.159 was too. Yeah, as a filmmaker, you know, we decided 144 00:09:19.200 --> 00:09:22.919 to go with the new media, which is streaming. That's 145 00:09:22.919 --> 00:09:23.240 what we do. 146 00:09:26.240 --> 00:09:29.840 Now. Without giving anything away because I know that you 147 00:09:30.000 --> 00:09:34.279 said you did sign a contract not just to leak 148 00:09:34.360 --> 00:09:39.320 certain information. Of course that's understandable, but what other than 149 00:09:40.840 --> 00:09:44.960 the tapes themselves and what they depict, And again we 150 00:09:45.039 --> 00:09:47.000 won't go into every bit, but we know that this 151 00:09:47.240 --> 00:09:54.000 involves torture in something incredibly vile from these two gentlemen. 152 00:09:54.480 --> 00:09:58.240 So what is it? What's the bigger story though? That 153 00:09:58.320 --> 00:10:03.039 someone would take away from watching this other than just 154 00:10:03.600 --> 00:10:10.639 a reenactment redepiction of the violence that is contained specifically 155 00:10:10.679 --> 00:10:18.360 on those tapes. In reality, you know, there. 156 00:10:18.200 --> 00:10:22.000 Are horrible people out there, and at the end of 157 00:10:22.039 --> 00:10:25.200 the day, I am a big fan of the horror 158 00:10:25.200 --> 00:10:31.279 genre and I wanted to express how real life horror 159 00:10:31.320 --> 00:10:35.600 is a true thing and you need to watch every 160 00:10:35.679 --> 00:10:38.799 move you make. Sometimes not to say I want to 161 00:10:38.799 --> 00:10:42.559 create a mass paranoia, but I think it's important to 162 00:10:42.600 --> 00:10:46.759 be able to know what you're doing and know who 163 00:10:46.799 --> 00:10:49.679 you're talking to, and have the foresight to be able 164 00:10:49.720 --> 00:10:54.039 to kick out when you're talking to somebody who is dangerous. 165 00:10:55.240 --> 00:10:58.600 So that's really the point of the film, to honor 166 00:10:58.639 --> 00:11:04.960 the people who passed away, warm people that this is 167 00:11:05.000 --> 00:11:08.480 still a problem. There are still people out there life 168 00:11:08.559 --> 00:11:12.440 letter like in Charles Lank and it just so happens. 169 00:11:12.759 --> 00:11:15.679 These two killers have not been talked about very often 170 00:11:15.720 --> 00:11:16.519 in film. 171 00:11:18.320 --> 00:11:28.440 Absolutely. Yeah, tell us about some of the sources that 172 00:11:28.480 --> 00:11:31.600 you use to research this story. You mentioned Don Lassiter's 173 00:11:31.679 --> 00:11:34.279 Die for Me. What are some of the other information, 174 00:11:34.399 --> 00:11:37.600 other than viewing the tapes themselves that you use for 175 00:11:37.840 --> 00:11:41.200 your sources of material? Oh? 176 00:11:41.240 --> 00:11:45.360 Well, there was definitely, Like I said, Die for Me 177 00:11:45.840 --> 00:11:49.320 is a very very good and accurate book. I of 178 00:11:49.360 --> 00:11:54.919 course read the Collector. Sure, the footage Belt has been 179 00:11:56.440 --> 00:11:58.600 very helpful. And on top of that, there were a 180 00:11:58.639 --> 00:12:02.960 few documentaries about the subjecked I believe you can even 181 00:12:03.000 --> 00:12:10.240 watch them on Gosh dare I say YouTube. I I'm 182 00:12:10.279 --> 00:12:14.559 actually looking it up right now. So it's fun. The 183 00:12:14.600 --> 00:12:20.480 boat yard, it's a very very accurate documentary, gives you, 184 00:12:20.480 --> 00:12:25.000 you know, enough information to to get to know these people. 185 00:12:25.399 --> 00:12:29.039 But I mean as many sources as possible. We also 186 00:12:29.120 --> 00:12:35.759 read transcripts from the four cases. I mean, as you know, 187 00:12:37.360 --> 00:12:42.919 King was in court for a very very long time. Yeah, 188 00:12:43.960 --> 00:12:47.919 he was able to keep keep his case going so 189 00:12:48.000 --> 00:12:52.399 long that it costs to California twenty million dollars the time, 190 00:12:52.559 --> 00:12:54.279 is the most expensive trial in the state of the 191 00:12:54.919 --> 00:13:01.559 in the you know, in the state since oj Yeah. 192 00:13:02.840 --> 00:13:07.200 So a lot of legal documents and interviews and documentaries 193 00:13:07.200 --> 00:13:10.639 that I could find. And of course there's also some 194 00:13:10.720 --> 00:13:13.639 people who have reached out, as I've been wrote in 195 00:13:13.639 --> 00:13:17.600 the film, apparently we've communicated with some people who actually 196 00:13:17.679 --> 00:13:21.320 lived in the area at the time. Wow, which is 197 00:13:21.360 --> 00:13:23.120 a breathtaking to me. 198 00:13:26.759 --> 00:13:29.639 Now for those that don't know, and we've alluded to 199 00:13:29.679 --> 00:13:34.320 and we spoke about it, but just briefly tell us 200 00:13:34.600 --> 00:13:36.840 I have a copy of The Collector as well, because 201 00:13:36.879 --> 00:13:39.600 it's it's not only Leonard Lake and Charles Ing that 202 00:13:39.720 --> 00:13:42.759 looked to this book for inspiration, and so I was 203 00:13:42.840 --> 00:13:45.559 curious and it is. It is a fascinating book and 204 00:13:45.600 --> 00:13:48.919 a very it's a very good book. Incredible how we 205 00:13:48.960 --> 00:13:51.679 could take it to another level after reading that. But 206 00:13:51.799 --> 00:13:54.360 for those that don't know about this, briefly about the 207 00:13:54.399 --> 00:13:58.840 Collector connection to Leonard Lake and and so hence the 208 00:13:59.639 --> 00:14:02.559 also the title of the Miranda Murders and as I mentioned, 209 00:14:02.720 --> 00:14:05.960 their plan, their project, the Miranda Operation. 210 00:14:06.159 --> 00:14:13.159 Miranda Well. Leonard Lake got inspiration from reading the book 211 00:14:13.399 --> 00:14:18.919 written by John Fowls in nineteen sixty three, and the 212 00:14:18.960 --> 00:14:21.720 book is about a butterfly collector who fell in love 213 00:14:21.759 --> 00:14:25.159 with a woman and kidnapped her and put her in 214 00:14:25.200 --> 00:14:32.000 the bunker in his I want to say, basement and 215 00:14:32.600 --> 00:14:35.840 did not want to rape or he wanted to convince 216 00:14:35.879 --> 00:14:40.639 her that he was worth loving and through this essentially 217 00:14:40.759 --> 00:14:46.320 Stockholm syndrome, she didn't necessarily fall in that she actually 218 00:14:46.320 --> 00:14:52.480 died in the book, but he got he was so 219 00:14:52.559 --> 00:14:57.399 attracted to the romance of holding a woman to the 220 00:14:57.440 --> 00:15:00.240 point that she would fall in love with him that 221 00:15:00.320 --> 00:15:04.720 he wanted to make it a reality. So he built 222 00:15:04.759 --> 00:15:08.519 a bunker in the side of a cliff, which is 223 00:15:09.039 --> 00:15:10.679 where he lived in the middle of the mountains in 224 00:15:10.720 --> 00:15:15.200 Wilseyville and kept his women there. And the girl in 225 00:15:15.240 --> 00:15:22.039 the book is named Miranda, so he called his project 226 00:15:22.279 --> 00:15:28.440 the Miranda Project, which is where the title the Miranda 227 00:15:28.519 --> 00:15:32.279 Murders comes from. In fact, if you look at the 228 00:15:32.279 --> 00:15:35.120 credits of the film, which you can see at a 229 00:15:35.120 --> 00:15:41.720 Shockfess Horror Factory dot com, I believe we have well 230 00:15:41.799 --> 00:15:48.879 I want to say about fifteen credits that are all Miranda, 231 00:15:49.200 --> 00:15:51.960 because that's you know, how many unnamed women he was 232 00:15:52.000 --> 00:15:55.399 able to keep in his bunker. 233 00:16:00.000 --> 00:16:03.399 What was the experience like? This sounds not like a 234 00:16:03.440 --> 00:16:07.240 great question, but what again, what does it What was 235 00:16:07.279 --> 00:16:10.679 it really like watching those tapes. You're a filmmaker, you're 236 00:16:10.679 --> 00:16:14.799 obviously some a person that knows is true crime business, 237 00:16:15.039 --> 00:16:20.200 and you know the intersection, it seems between true crime 238 00:16:20.279 --> 00:16:24.360 and true horror. It would seem what was it like 239 00:16:24.759 --> 00:16:26.440 watching these tapes? 240 00:16:29.000 --> 00:16:31.600 I mean, it's tragic to see that these are the 241 00:16:31.679 --> 00:16:36.759 last moments of these human beings that it moved me. 242 00:16:36.879 --> 00:16:40.399 And what I had to do was I felt the 243 00:16:40.480 --> 00:16:44.799 need to express their pain so that people can arm 244 00:16:44.840 --> 00:16:48.240 themselves with the power and the knowledge that there are 245 00:16:48.360 --> 00:16:53.879 these people that are at charming who can do horrible 246 00:16:53.919 --> 00:17:00.480 things to you. It was a sad and I have 247 00:17:00.600 --> 00:17:04.960 to admit I have a morbid curiosity, so I found 248 00:17:05.000 --> 00:17:08.279 it interesting Personally. I think some people don't have the 249 00:17:08.319 --> 00:17:14.400 same sentimentality, but sure, ultimately it was very upsetting. 250 00:17:19.119 --> 00:17:27.319 Now with this, what were the victims? How many victims 251 00:17:27.519 --> 00:17:30.680 and what was the range of age of these victims 252 00:17:30.720 --> 00:17:31.480 that are depicted. 253 00:17:34.920 --> 00:17:39.119 Leonard Lake is known to have what is called the 254 00:17:42.119 --> 00:17:47.359 I want to say it's the confession. It's a vey 255 00:17:47.480 --> 00:17:52.079 of him sitting in his armchair where he admits that 256 00:17:52.119 --> 00:17:57.079 he finds women attractive as young as the age of twelve, 257 00:17:57.559 --> 00:18:04.799 but usually about twenty one to I want to say 258 00:18:04.839 --> 00:18:09.319 twenty five. He liked the younger women, usually smaller sized women, 259 00:18:11.279 --> 00:18:15.039 and when the police came to the bunker in Wilseyville, 260 00:18:15.599 --> 00:18:20.839 they found about enough bone fragments to determine it was 261 00:18:20.920 --> 00:18:23.640 up to twenty five victims and it wasn't just women 262 00:18:23.960 --> 00:18:29.559 that he killed. That actually brings up a really interesting topic. 263 00:18:30.519 --> 00:18:34.039 Leonard Lake and Charles Ing were kind of pioneers in 264 00:18:34.079 --> 00:18:39.319 the field of identity theft because the way they were 265 00:18:39.359 --> 00:18:41.759 able to avoid the police so long is they found 266 00:18:41.920 --> 00:18:46.000 individuals who looked like them. Specifically Leonard Lake Charles Ling 267 00:18:46.279 --> 00:18:52.079 was more under the radar, and they would kill them 268 00:18:52.079 --> 00:18:56.359 and steal their identity and steal their their their driver's 269 00:18:56.359 --> 00:19:02.519 license and for ten to be then Charlie Gunner was 270 00:19:03.640 --> 00:19:07.480 I believe was his best man. Let me just check 271 00:19:07.519 --> 00:19:14.519 my facts on that one, but yes, that's right. I 272 00:19:14.559 --> 00:19:18.440 believe he pretended to be Charlie Gunner and he killed 273 00:19:18.480 --> 00:19:21.119 him and stole his ID. 274 00:19:25.279 --> 00:19:29.599 You talk about actually going to the crime scene itself, 275 00:19:33.000 --> 00:19:36.599 sierraed to that of Foothills, So tell us, just as 276 00:19:36.640 --> 00:19:39.400 you do, where exactly this is, and then tell us 277 00:19:39.440 --> 00:19:41.559 about that experience and what you saw. 278 00:19:43.720 --> 00:19:49.400 Well, me and my producers rove to Wilseyville, which was 279 00:19:50.000 --> 00:19:52.759 I want to say, two or three hours away from 280 00:19:52.759 --> 00:19:57.319 San Francisco, and we're both located in southern California, so 281 00:19:57.359 --> 00:19:58.400 it was a bit of a drive to get up 282 00:19:58.400 --> 00:20:05.240 there in the first place, and driving there was very eerie. 283 00:20:06.000 --> 00:20:08.680 You got the fee because because the population is very small. 284 00:20:09.279 --> 00:20:11.319 We drove around the neighborhood, which was in the middle 285 00:20:11.359 --> 00:20:14.799 of the mountains, very sparse, maybe a couple hundred people 286 00:20:14.799 --> 00:20:18.880 at most, and you got the feeling people are there 287 00:20:18.960 --> 00:20:23.680 to disappear because they don't want to be seen or 288 00:20:23.680 --> 00:20:27.640 be known. So it's a very good place for a 289 00:20:27.680 --> 00:20:32.559 serial killer to take a victim. And we actually drove 290 00:20:32.680 --> 00:20:38.680 down gosh is it a or to say, Blue Mountain Road, 291 00:20:38.720 --> 00:20:42.559 the road where they lived. We drove all the way 292 00:20:42.559 --> 00:20:46.559 down to their their property and it's not there anymore. 293 00:20:46.599 --> 00:20:50.319 But it's it's a very precarious road. It's it's a 294 00:20:51.240 --> 00:20:53.559 it's not a too it's not like a two way street. 295 00:20:53.559 --> 00:20:57.400 It's not like the way you would picture a freeway. 296 00:20:57.880 --> 00:20:59.559 It's a dirt road in the middle of the hills 297 00:21:00.279 --> 00:21:05.759 in a very mountainy area. And you know, you're about 298 00:21:05.799 --> 00:21:08.400 like a few inches away from the side of a cliff. 299 00:21:09.680 --> 00:21:12.759 And when I say a cliff, I mean it's literally dirt. 300 00:21:13.720 --> 00:21:17.880 A bad thunderstorm would probably destroy the road. So it 301 00:21:17.960 --> 00:21:22.839 was very ominous Spookie, And yeah, it was very intimidating, 302 00:21:23.960 --> 00:21:27.480 but one there was important. We needed to experience what 303 00:21:27.519 --> 00:21:29.440 it's like to be there. In order to tell the story, 304 00:21:29.480 --> 00:21:30.319 because we had to. 305 00:21:30.240 --> 00:21:38.160 Know in those tapes and in your depiction in this movie, 306 00:21:38.160 --> 00:21:41.759 as you say, this is an accurate depiction, holding nothing 307 00:21:41.839 --> 00:21:46.400 back obviously. Yes, I know you can't give too much away, 308 00:21:46.440 --> 00:21:49.440 and you don't want to give too much away, except 309 00:21:49.680 --> 00:21:52.599 you have a trailer for this movie as well as well. 310 00:21:53.559 --> 00:21:56.240 But if you can give us a sense of the 311 00:21:56.440 --> 00:22:04.599 psychological the slave contract, these written rules, what exactly will 312 00:22:04.640 --> 00:22:08.279 you be depicting. If you could give us a sense 313 00:22:08.319 --> 00:22:08.720 of that. 314 00:22:11.880 --> 00:22:15.160 You're talking about a style of filmmaking, which is something 315 00:22:15.200 --> 00:22:19.680 I would be very happy to share. Very early on 316 00:22:19.759 --> 00:22:22.000 in the process, I decided I wanted to make a 317 00:22:22.039 --> 00:22:26.519 movie that was similar in style to Texas Chainsaw Masker 318 00:22:26.599 --> 00:22:29.799 in the Blair Witch Project, where there was practically, if 319 00:22:29.839 --> 00:22:34.160 not zero gore. I did not want to make a 320 00:22:35.200 --> 00:22:40.559 bloody movie. I wanted to make a psychological movie based 321 00:22:40.599 --> 00:22:45.079 off of what real serial killers would probably put on film, 322 00:22:45.799 --> 00:22:50.880 and they probably wouldn't put on themselves, stabbing people. And 323 00:22:50.920 --> 00:22:54.519 you know, we've heard about snuff movies before, where it's 324 00:22:54.519 --> 00:22:56.839 a people torturing people on film. That's not what I 325 00:22:56.880 --> 00:22:59.079 wanted to make. I wanted to make something that was 326 00:22:59.519 --> 00:23:06.640 then legitimately trying to psychologically change another human being, and 327 00:23:06.759 --> 00:23:12.480 that's what we depicted our film. The rules that Leonard 328 00:23:12.559 --> 00:23:15.960 Dick and Charles Ing put in the bunker, which was 329 00:23:16.000 --> 00:23:23.119 the place that they kept their victims, was designed to 330 00:23:23.160 --> 00:23:30.319 condition these women to become subservient to them. It was 331 00:23:30.839 --> 00:23:34.160 don't look me in the eye, i will always keep 332 00:23:34.200 --> 00:23:39.480 my lips parted, I'll always keep my bed meat, and 333 00:23:43.720 --> 00:23:52.480 it was a basic guideline for the perfect slave that 334 00:23:52.640 --> 00:23:59.160 they envisioned. That's that's pretty much what you see in 335 00:23:59.160 --> 00:24:01.720 the film. We're trying created something that was based off 336 00:24:01.720 --> 00:24:07.640 of reality and based off the footage we saw, which 337 00:24:08.279 --> 00:24:12.559 was pretty, like I said, pretty shocking. It's frustratingly and 338 00:24:12.559 --> 00:24:13.680 surprisingly accurate. 339 00:24:17.480 --> 00:24:20.839 You also, in the trailer, the one trailer that I've seen, 340 00:24:21.599 --> 00:24:26.880 you have included it seems the relationship between Leonard Lake 341 00:24:26.920 --> 00:24:29.440 and Charles Ying. We see we know them as a 342 00:24:29.480 --> 00:24:33.799 couple that got together to do this, maybe one person 343 00:24:33.880 --> 00:24:37.640 dominant the other. But is there something in that trailer 344 00:24:38.160 --> 00:24:43.000 that concerns the relationship that you are depicting in this 345 00:24:43.079 --> 00:24:43.680 film as well. 346 00:24:44.839 --> 00:24:48.079 I'm very glad to bring that up because a big 347 00:24:48.119 --> 00:24:57.559 thing about the film is through exposition, and through subtle 348 00:24:57.920 --> 00:25:00.920 encounters between the two, you get to know what those 349 00:25:00.920 --> 00:25:05.079 two characters personalities were, what these two people were, and 350 00:25:05.200 --> 00:25:09.640 on the surface, Leonard Lake was a domineering master but 351 00:25:11.480 --> 00:25:17.920 Charles Ing, played by my producer Joe Clavaria, was frequently 352 00:25:19.200 --> 00:25:23.960 more of the mastermind. He was behind the camera, and 353 00:25:24.039 --> 00:25:26.559 he knew that it being behind the cameras oppose you 354 00:25:26.559 --> 00:25:28.880 want in front of the camera, that it would be 355 00:25:29.000 --> 00:25:34.599 less incriminating for him, and he played this role of submissive, 356 00:25:34.680 --> 00:25:42.079 even though that's not necessarily exactly who he was. But 357 00:25:44.160 --> 00:25:48.000 you get to know how tricky these two people really were, 358 00:25:49.720 --> 00:25:56.000 and you're gonna be surprised by watching the film what 359 00:25:56.039 --> 00:25:59.640 their personalities really are. And this is also expressed through 360 00:26:01.039 --> 00:26:08.559 Leonard Lake's wife, her ex wife, Carolyn Blast, who was 361 00:26:08.680 --> 00:26:14.359 actually really active with the murders and she actually ended 362 00:26:14.440 --> 00:26:20.400 up getting a pardon by complying with the police. But 363 00:26:21.799 --> 00:26:26.759 in the film it's explored a little further just how 364 00:26:27.160 --> 00:26:31.440 active she really was, which, according to the research that 365 00:26:31.480 --> 00:26:39.000 we took, was pretty active. She's just as guilty, if 366 00:26:39.039 --> 00:26:42.160 not more so, than you know Leonard Link and Charles Zang, 367 00:26:43.119 --> 00:26:49.759 and yet she's walking the streets today. 368 00:26:49.960 --> 00:26:55.640 Else does this movie have to say? I mean, you've 369 00:26:55.759 --> 00:27:01.759 talked about this cautionary tale and obviously you want the 370 00:27:01.799 --> 00:27:05.359 story to be told period, But is there something else, 371 00:27:06.680 --> 00:27:12.920 a bigger sort of sense from the relationship the times 372 00:27:14.000 --> 00:27:18.559 and the evil that these people perpetrated. Is there something 373 00:27:18.599 --> 00:27:21.640 else that has to be said or is said in 374 00:27:21.720 --> 00:27:25.119 this film? 375 00:27:27.640 --> 00:27:35.359 You know, the film, I have to admit, is dark, 376 00:27:36.319 --> 00:27:40.720 and the topic is very dark, and the subject is 377 00:27:40.799 --> 00:27:45.400 very means perioded. But my philosophy is you need to 378 00:27:45.440 --> 00:27:48.440 take that information and you need to grow from it. 379 00:27:48.480 --> 00:27:50.880 How do you arm yourself with the fact that the 380 00:27:50.920 --> 00:27:57.720 world was dark and make the world better? So I 381 00:27:57.720 --> 00:28:00.200 guess that's really the takeaway. And on top of it, 382 00:28:00.279 --> 00:28:02.359 like I said, I'm a horror guy at the end 383 00:28:02.400 --> 00:28:04.039 of the day, and because I want to scare you 384 00:28:04.119 --> 00:28:11.880 a little bit, so it be afraid but be inspired. 385 00:28:15.400 --> 00:28:18.119 Now, who tell us, so we talk about you being 386 00:28:18.119 --> 00:28:23.839 the writer, tell us about the credits for this movie period. 387 00:28:25.240 --> 00:28:27.960 I'm actually not the only writer. I co wrote it 388 00:28:28.000 --> 00:28:31.079 with my producer Gil Claveria, who was the one who 389 00:28:31.119 --> 00:28:36.920 pitched me the idea of the film. He was a 390 00:28:36.920 --> 00:28:41.480 film festival director of a Shockfest film festival, in Hollywood 391 00:28:41.960 --> 00:28:45.960 for about ten years, and I worked for him for 392 00:28:46.000 --> 00:28:50.400 about two and we got hooked up because I'm like 393 00:28:50.440 --> 00:28:54.079 I said, I'm an actor. And he asked me to 394 00:28:54.240 --> 00:28:58.880 perform for him at in Santa Barbara for his musical 395 00:28:58.880 --> 00:29:04.359 that he wrote and his wife's erected Alicia Claveria, And 396 00:29:04.400 --> 00:29:07.039 we spent some time in Vegas, which is where he 397 00:29:07.079 --> 00:29:08.960 has a condo, and we did a lot of our 398 00:29:08.960 --> 00:29:11.920 writing and he pulled up a picture of these two 399 00:29:12.000 --> 00:29:17.559 killers and said, do you think we can create this movie? 400 00:29:17.799 --> 00:29:22.559 So man, and I said yes. So we went to 401 00:29:22.680 --> 00:29:26.240