WEBVTT 1 00:00:04.099 --> 00:00:05.780 The Joe Rogan Experience. 2 00:00:06.219 --> 00:00:09.539 Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. 3 00:00:13.800 --> 00:00:14.400 Good to see you, sir. 4 00:00:14.929 --> 00:00:15.449 Good to be here. 5 00:00:15.470 --> 00:00:17.390 Thank you very much for doing this. I'm really excited 6 00:00:17.410 --> 00:00:18.809 to talk to you. I've been looking forward to this 7 00:00:18.850 --> 00:00:19.129 a lot. 8 00:00:19.850 --> 00:00:20.850 Thanks very much for having me. 9 00:00:21.170 --> 00:00:26.070 You have a very, very unique life story. So I 10 00:00:27.210 --> 00:00:31.100 want to start with how did you become... Let's lay 11 00:00:31.140 --> 00:00:33.560 it out for people. What got me interested in you 12 00:00:33.859 --> 00:00:39.240 is you became a Christian missionary and then went to 13 00:00:39.259 --> 00:00:42.759 the jungle and met these people. Let me say this right. 14 00:00:42.780 --> 00:00:43.539 The Pidaha? 15 00:00:43.859 --> 00:00:44.299 Pidaha. 16 00:00:44.380 --> 00:00:49.259 Pidaha. Pidaha. And stopped being a missionary and lived with 17 00:00:49.299 --> 00:00:50.659 them for how long? 18 00:00:51.649 --> 00:00:53.869 Well, the total time that I lived with them is 19 00:00:53.909 --> 00:00:56.909 about eight years in the jungle with them over a period. 20 00:00:57.009 --> 00:00:59.229 But I've been working with them for 40 years. I 21 00:00:59.270 --> 00:01:01.200 go back a lot. Wow. 22 00:01:01.799 --> 00:01:04.319 But you lived with them for eight years, and during 23 00:01:04.359 --> 00:01:09.040 that eight-year time period, you kind of... Is it safe 24 00:01:09.060 --> 00:01:09.920 to say you're an atheist? 25 00:01:10.219 --> 00:01:11.530 Yes, it's safe to say that. 26 00:01:11.980 --> 00:01:14.230 And so let's take it back to the beginning. How 27 00:01:14.269 --> 00:01:16.329 did you become a missionary? Did you come from a 28 00:01:16.430 --> 00:01:17.189 religious family? 29 00:01:17.829 --> 00:01:22.170 No, I came from a very unreligious family. I was... 30 00:01:22.310 --> 00:01:24.069 In fact, I was standing out in front of a 31 00:01:24.109 --> 00:01:27.620 Jimi Hendrix concert in 1968 trying to sell LSD to 32 00:01:27.659 --> 00:01:28.069 get in, and. 33 00:01:30.109 --> 00:01:31.790 And this guy that I knew from high school that 34 00:01:31.810 --> 00:01:34.510 was really straight-laced came up with his sister. She was 35 00:01:34.569 --> 00:01:36.790 very cute. So I went up to try to sell 36 00:01:36.810 --> 00:01:39.709 them some LSD. They didn't use drugs. And so I said, well, 37 00:01:39.730 --> 00:01:41.450 you got any change? I need to get some money 38 00:01:41.489 --> 00:01:44.799 to get into the concert. And I saw that she 39 00:01:44.859 --> 00:01:47.299 went to the same high school that I did. So 40 00:01:47.879 --> 00:01:50.079 after the concert, which she didn't like but I loved, 41 00:01:50.719 --> 00:01:52.819 I went to see her in high school. I sat 42 00:01:52.879 --> 00:01:56.260 by her during lunchtime and found out that she was 43 00:01:56.280 --> 00:02:00.060 a missionary and had been raised in Brazil. And That 44 00:02:00.219 --> 00:02:03.469 really intrigued me because it was the 60s and I was, 45 00:02:04.549 --> 00:02:06.989 you know, didn't want to have just the typical U.S. 46 00:02:07.730 --> 00:02:11.689 life and living in the Amazon sounded really cool. But 47 00:02:11.710 --> 00:02:15.250 then I became, you know, a genuine, strong, believing Christian. 48 00:02:16.060 --> 00:02:19.020 Went to Bible school. I did my undergraduate degree in 49 00:02:19.060 --> 00:02:22.560 Bible and theology and I was an ordained minister in 50 00:02:22.580 --> 00:02:26.750 the Wesleyan Church and very active in church and, um, 51 00:02:27.259 --> 00:02:29.819 was preached on street corners and did all that kind 52 00:02:29.860 --> 00:02:30.199 of thing. 53 00:02:30.840 --> 00:02:34.120 How did you make this transition from being a guy 54 00:02:34.159 --> 00:02:35.990 with a bag of acid in front of a Jimi 55 00:02:36.030 --> 00:02:37.810 Hendrix concert to.... 56 00:02:38.870 --> 00:02:41.569 Well, her father, who had been a missionary now for 57 00:02:41.569 --> 00:02:45.840 20 years, was the most influential person outside my family 58 00:02:46.379 --> 00:02:48.180 in my life. And he and I would sit up 59 00:02:48.280 --> 00:02:50.889 late at night talking and And, you know, I was 60 00:02:50.889 --> 00:02:53.949 17 and I found everything he said to be very 61 00:02:54.210 --> 00:02:58.030 convincing and very interesting. But mainly I loved his stories 62 00:02:58.090 --> 00:03:00.120 of the jungle and what it was like to live 63 00:03:00.159 --> 00:03:03.039 in the jungle. And I wanted to do that. And 64 00:03:03.419 --> 00:03:07.479 I became a believer. It was a gradual process. Well, actually, no, 65 00:03:07.520 --> 00:03:11.460 it wasn't that gradual. My father was just astounded. He said, 66 00:03:11.639 --> 00:03:14.060 you know, from one minute I'm worrying about you getting arrested. 67 00:03:14.539 --> 00:03:16.639 And now you're going to church every Sunday with these 68 00:03:16.699 --> 00:03:19.340 people I don't even know. He wasn't that happy about it. 69 00:03:20.349 --> 00:03:22.090 He'd rather you just get loaded in front of the 70 00:03:22.110 --> 00:03:22.849 Hendrix concert? 71 00:03:23.430 --> 00:03:25.530 Yeah, he would have, actually, because he was a heavy 72 00:03:25.610 --> 00:03:28.620 drinker and a construction worker, and he considered that to 73 00:03:28.659 --> 00:03:30.819 be part of the masculine experience, you know? 74 00:03:31.159 --> 00:03:33.199 But acid? Was acid okay with him? 75 00:03:33.340 --> 00:03:34.960 I don't think he knew I was doing acid. 76 00:03:35.159 --> 00:03:35.479 Oh, okay. 77 00:03:35.599 --> 00:03:37.900 But he knew I was doing, you know, weed and 78 00:03:38.259 --> 00:03:38.900 things like that. 79 00:03:39.039 --> 00:03:39.780 And he didn't mind that? 80 00:03:40.259 --> 00:03:43.469 No, that was— he didn't want me doing it in the house, which. 81 00:03:43.370 --> 00:03:46.789 I did, but— So your rebellion was to become an 82 00:03:46.849 --> 00:03:49.469 outstanding citizen and a Christian missionary? 83 00:03:49.930 --> 00:03:52.310 Right. That was my greatest form of rebellion against the 84 00:03:52.370 --> 00:03:53.370 life I had been leading. 85 00:03:53.830 --> 00:03:57.159 Interesting. Yeah, that's what happens when parents push their kids 86 00:03:57.199 --> 00:03:58.099 into a certain direction. 87 00:03:59.020 --> 00:03:59.439 Right, right. 88 00:03:59.479 --> 00:04:01.379 Little people don't like being told what to do. 89 00:04:01.500 --> 00:04:03.379 Yeah. 90 00:04:04.139 --> 00:04:08.599 So you immediately, it seems like, go become a Christian. 91 00:04:09.340 --> 00:04:12.219 And then how long before you are actually doing missionary 92 00:04:12.259 --> 00:04:12.919 work in the jungle? 93 00:04:13.680 --> 00:04:15.259 Well, there's a lot of training you have to do. 94 00:04:15.319 --> 00:04:17.240 So first I had to do four years of college, 95 00:04:17.839 --> 00:04:20.240 Bible and theology, and then I had to do some 96 00:04:20.279 --> 00:04:25.920 linguistics training. And then not a graduate degree or anything 97 00:04:25.959 --> 00:04:29.060 like that, just some linguistics training from the missionary organization 98 00:04:29.079 --> 00:04:32.199 because I wanted to be a Bible translator. And then 99 00:04:32.250 --> 00:04:34.930 we did jungle training in southern Mexico. So we went 100 00:04:34.959 --> 00:04:37.649 to the jungles of Chiapas and had to do survival 101 00:04:37.709 --> 00:04:38.850 training and all of this. 102 00:04:38.870 --> 00:04:40.430 Whoa. What did you have to do there? 103 00:04:41.410 --> 00:04:44.040 Well, there are several phases to it. The family goes 104 00:04:44.120 --> 00:04:46.189 and the family's part of it. But the hardest thing 105 00:04:46.310 --> 00:04:49.579 is to really see how much you've learned. They take 106 00:04:49.600 --> 00:04:51.759 you on what's called survival hike and they leave you 107 00:04:51.819 --> 00:04:53.959 alone for about a week in the jungle. You're not 108 00:04:54.000 --> 00:04:57.939 allowed to take any food or any supplies of any kind. 109 00:04:58.019 --> 00:04:58.540 For a week? 110 00:04:58.819 --> 00:05:01.060 Yeah, for a week or more. You don't know. It's 111 00:05:01.079 --> 00:05:03.480 going to be at least a week. In my case, 112 00:05:03.600 --> 00:05:08.290 it was about 10 days. And you've got to set up. 113 00:05:08.850 --> 00:05:10.910 Your camp, how best you can figure out how to 114 00:05:10.930 --> 00:05:11.769 get a fire going. 115 00:05:12.110 --> 00:05:13.790 Do they teach you how to do all this stuff? 116 00:05:13.810 --> 00:05:15.370 They don't just like figure it out. 117 00:05:15.540 --> 00:05:18.800 This is like the final exam. So you've had almost 118 00:05:18.879 --> 00:05:22.180 four months of training before they finally take you out 119 00:05:22.220 --> 00:05:22.899 on this survival. 120 00:05:22.920 --> 00:05:23.759 Do you have water? 121 00:05:25.600 --> 00:05:28.319 You have maybe a quart of water when you leave, 122 00:05:29.019 --> 00:05:30.319 but you're going to be out there for 10 days. 123 00:05:30.370 --> 00:05:32.129 So you've got to find water. So we learned which 124 00:05:32.209 --> 00:05:34.829 vines have water and how to cut the vines. We 125 00:05:34.870 --> 00:05:37.389 did have a machete. So I was able to jump 126 00:05:37.490 --> 00:05:40.519 up and cut a vine. At the top first and 127 00:05:40.540 --> 00:05:41.259 then at the bottom. 128 00:05:41.579 --> 00:05:44.259 And no one's monitoring you? They're just leaving you out 129 00:05:44.300 --> 00:05:46.000 there and they're not making sure you're okay? 130 00:05:46.240 --> 00:05:48.160 No, they just come along when the time's up. And 131 00:05:48.459 --> 00:05:49.279 if you're there, you're there. 132 00:05:49.319 --> 00:05:51.920 Oh, boy. And if you're not, you're dead? 133 00:05:52.579 --> 00:05:53.079 You could be. 134 00:05:53.899 --> 00:05:56.060 So that's insane. 135 00:05:56.639 --> 00:05:59.759 Yeah, well, this is what happens when you live by faith. 136 00:05:59.839 --> 00:06:03.730 You know, you're out there. And God's supposed to be 137 00:06:03.829 --> 00:06:06.949 supervising your training, but it's really rigorous training. So by 138 00:06:06.990 --> 00:06:09.170 the time I actually got to the Amazon, which was 139 00:06:09.290 --> 00:06:14.459 eight years after I converted, took that long, it felt 140 00:06:14.500 --> 00:06:17.079 like I was coming home. I wasn't surprised by things. 141 00:06:17.339 --> 00:06:19.439 Well, the training was good then. I mean, I would 142 00:06:19.480 --> 00:06:21.519 imagine if you really want someone to be able to 143 00:06:21.579 --> 00:06:24.050 survive alone in the jungle, best way to do it 144 00:06:24.089 --> 00:06:26.750 is to test them by making them survive alone in 145 00:06:26.769 --> 00:06:29.779 the jungle so that you get an actual experience. version 146 00:06:29.800 --> 00:06:32.819 of the experience. It's not simulated. You actually are getting 147 00:06:32.879 --> 00:06:35.139 water from vines. What were you eating? 148 00:06:36.339 --> 00:06:38.839 Well, I learned different kinds of plants that you could eat. 149 00:06:39.439 --> 00:06:43.019 And then I learned how to make with a stick, 150 00:06:43.399 --> 00:06:47.170 you know, make a stick the size of a toothpick 151 00:06:47.209 --> 00:06:50.470 sharpened on both ends. And I did have some fishing line. 152 00:06:50.490 --> 00:06:53.529 I would attach that to that. And I was so 153 00:06:53.589 --> 00:06:56.149 proud of myself because I brought up two fish that 154 00:06:56.189 --> 00:06:59.829 were about three inches long And I ate those. And 155 00:06:59.870 --> 00:07:02.629 most of the time I ate plants and went hungry. 156 00:07:02.670 --> 00:07:08.149 So when I see the programs like Alone, that wouldn't 157 00:07:08.170 --> 00:07:10.410 bother me. That's the kind of stuff we had to do. 158 00:07:12.009 --> 00:07:13.449 They didn't even give you fish hooks? 159 00:07:13.810 --> 00:07:16.209 No. You can't have that kind of stuff. You have 160 00:07:16.250 --> 00:07:17.720 to learn to cope on your own. You've got to 161 00:07:17.740 --> 00:07:19.949 make your own. You've got to be able to recognize 162 00:07:19.970 --> 00:07:22.709 the plants, which ones are poisonous, which ones are not poisonous. 163 00:07:22.920 --> 00:07:24.459 Did you try to make, like, a bow and arrow 164 00:07:24.480 --> 00:07:24.819 or anything? 165 00:07:25.220 --> 00:07:25.899 Yeah, yeah. 166 00:07:26.100 --> 00:07:26.439 You did? 167 00:07:26.699 --> 00:07:27.899 I did. I made a bow and arrow. 168 00:07:28.220 --> 00:07:28.879 How did you do that? 169 00:07:30.220 --> 00:07:33.120 Well, I had a machete, and that's what I had. 170 00:07:33.560 --> 00:07:35.060 It's crazy they give you a machete. They won't give 171 00:07:35.079 --> 00:07:35.720 you fish hooks. 172 00:07:35.740 --> 00:07:36.699 Like, come on, guys. 173 00:07:36.810 --> 00:07:39.430 Yeah, yeah. Fish hooks are so much easier to carry. Right. 174 00:07:39.750 --> 00:07:42.389 But the machete you need for firewood. You need for 175 00:07:42.430 --> 00:07:45.889 lots of things. You know, when I got to the Amazon. 176 00:07:46.149 --> 00:07:48.730 What? Do you have a lighter? No. No. How are 177 00:07:48.750 --> 00:07:49.370 you making fires? 178 00:07:49.670 --> 00:07:53.089 Well, they let me take just a few matches. 179 00:07:53.930 --> 00:07:54.949 Oh, Lord. 180 00:07:55.269 --> 00:07:57.949 And so no lighter, but a few matches, which you 181 00:07:58.110 --> 00:08:01.660 kept in a 35-millimeter film cartridge. 182 00:08:01.680 --> 00:08:04.740 People don't know about those things, those little containers. Yeah. 183 00:08:05.019 --> 00:08:07.120 How many matches did they give you for 10 days? 184 00:08:07.860 --> 00:08:11.199 Well, you had one of those little containers with about 10, 185 00:08:11.199 --> 00:08:13.009 15 matches in it at the most. 186 00:08:13.029 --> 00:08:14.949 Oh, boy. So you've got to match a day. 187 00:08:15.170 --> 00:08:16.970 You've got to keep your fire going all the time. 188 00:08:17.089 --> 00:08:19.089 You always have to keep that fire going. So before 189 00:08:19.110 --> 00:08:22.389 you start it, you spend half the day just cutting firewood. 190 00:08:22.790 --> 00:08:24.810 And I would imagine it's very wet. 191 00:08:25.439 --> 00:08:28.699 It's all wet. So you've got to find something dry 192 00:08:28.980 --> 00:08:31.980 to get it going. And as they told us— You've 193 00:08:32.000 --> 00:08:33.659 got to keep it going. Yeah. They said once it's 194 00:08:33.700 --> 00:08:36.720 hot enough, it'll burn anything. But until it gets hot, 195 00:08:36.799 --> 00:08:38.620 you can't just throw that wet wood on there. It'll 196 00:08:38.879 --> 00:08:42.049 put it out. So— You know, you have to spend 197 00:08:42.090 --> 00:08:45.029 a lot of time exploring, trying to find dry, crackly 198 00:08:45.100 --> 00:08:47.179 wood and leaves and things and get it going. And 199 00:08:47.200 --> 00:08:50.820 then slowly introduce the thinner pieces of wet wood until 200 00:08:50.860 --> 00:08:53.419 finally you can throw on a sopping log. 201 00:08:53.559 --> 00:08:55.700 So a big part of your day essentially is making 202 00:08:55.720 --> 00:08:58.500 sure that fire stays lit. Yeah. That's a big part 203 00:08:58.519 --> 00:09:00.830 of your day. And you can't get too far from it. No. 204 00:09:01.179 --> 00:09:03.210 You have to stay fairly close to it. And at 205 00:09:03.269 --> 00:09:05.049 night you definitely want to keep it going. So I 206 00:09:05.070 --> 00:09:08.830 remember one night waking up and hearing heavy steps around 207 00:09:08.870 --> 00:09:09.850 my camp. 208 00:09:09.870 --> 00:09:10.129 Oh, yeah. 209 00:09:10.549 --> 00:09:14.519 And– I was up immediately blowing on that fire for 210 00:09:14.559 --> 00:09:17.080 everything I was worth to get that thing up. Yeah. 211 00:09:17.860 --> 00:09:18.740 Was it Jaguars? 212 00:09:20.419 --> 00:09:22.840 I suspect that it could have been, although I didn't 213 00:09:22.919 --> 00:09:25.720 see it. I had my machete, which when I got 214 00:09:25.759 --> 00:09:28.980 to the Amazon and actually saw Jaguars, I realized that 215 00:09:29.000 --> 00:09:32.190 would have been a pretty pathetic thing to try, go 216 00:09:32.230 --> 00:09:35.129 against a Jaguar with a machete. They would rip your 217 00:09:35.149 --> 00:09:35.470 head off. 218 00:09:35.690 --> 00:09:38.309 Everybody likes to think they have a chance, though. Yeah, yeah. 219 00:09:38.330 --> 00:09:40.860 But What I found out is jaguars, you know, they 220 00:09:40.879 --> 00:09:43.759 get up to 400 pounds. And they're the third biggest 221 00:09:43.820 --> 00:09:45.700 cat in the world after the lion and the tiger. 222 00:09:46.320 --> 00:09:50.720 And they often hunt in pairs. And so you wouldn't 223 00:09:50.740 --> 00:09:54.029 have a chance against a jaguar unless you were one 224 00:09:54.049 --> 00:09:57.379 of the pitahas. I know that guys alone by themselves 225 00:09:57.419 --> 00:09:58.360 have killed jaguars. 226 00:09:58.919 --> 00:10:01.100 Really? Yeah. What are they using to kill a jaguar? 227 00:10:02.100 --> 00:10:03.899 Well, they're always with their bows and arrows. 228 00:10:05.700 --> 00:10:08.370 It's a bow and arrow range for a jaguar. That's crazy. 229 00:10:08.379 --> 00:10:10.710 Well, you better have it ready because it sneaks up 230 00:10:10.789 --> 00:10:13.110 on you. There's another group that I worked with for 231 00:10:13.230 --> 00:10:16.549 quite a while, several months, called the Bonowah, and they 232 00:10:16.629 --> 00:10:20.529 use poisoned darts and poisoned arrows. So there's a story 233 00:10:20.549 --> 00:10:25.549 of this guy who went out hunting and he reached 234 00:10:25.610 --> 00:10:27.789 a clearing in the jungle and he saw a deer 235 00:10:27.850 --> 00:10:30.389 come out running straight for him. And at first he 236 00:10:30.409 --> 00:10:32.210 was happy and he was going to kill the deer. 237 00:10:32.230 --> 00:10:34.250 And then he realized deers don't just come running out 238 00:10:34.269 --> 00:10:36.710 of the jungle towards people. And then right behind the 239 00:10:36.750 --> 00:10:41.450 deer came a jaguar. And the jaguar saw him, the guy, 240 00:10:41.610 --> 00:10:43.529 and he was bigger than the deer. So the jaguar 241 00:10:43.570 --> 00:10:46.330 just took off straight for him and jumped up. And 242 00:10:46.509 --> 00:10:49.200 the guy got his bow, his blowgun. out in front 243 00:10:49.220 --> 00:10:51.879 of him. They're about seven or eight feet long, these 244 00:10:51.940 --> 00:10:55.600 big blow guns. And they're very sturdy. And the jaguar, 245 00:10:56.259 --> 00:10:59.559 he holds it away. The jaguar's back legs are tearing 246 00:10:59.580 --> 00:11:02.700 the meat off of his legs. And the jaguar's head 247 00:11:02.740 --> 00:11:05.100 just keeps snapping at his face, trying to get his face. 248 00:11:05.779 --> 00:11:08.659 And what saved his life was the jaguar jumped off 249 00:11:08.720 --> 00:11:10.340 to go around the back and try to get him 250 00:11:10.379 --> 00:11:12.850 from the back. But he had a poisoned arrow and 251 00:11:12.870 --> 00:11:15.190 he stabbed the jaguar with it. And that hurts. And 252 00:11:15.210 --> 00:11:17.049 the jaguar started to run off and then he shot 253 00:11:17.090 --> 00:11:22.490 it with a poisoned arrow. But he passed out, and 254 00:11:23.129 --> 00:11:25.769 his family found him a couple of days later with 255 00:11:25.830 --> 00:11:30.840 his legs just infected and torn to pieces. But he survived. 256 00:11:33.700 --> 00:11:36.940 And so these Pidahad, would they go hunt the jaguars? 257 00:11:37.919 --> 00:11:40.899 If they saw that it was a danger, if a 258 00:11:40.960 --> 00:11:44.200 woman went out and a jaguar or a mountain lion 259 00:11:45.399 --> 00:11:47.519 scared her, the men would go out to kill it. 260 00:11:48.350 --> 00:11:52.490 So I've eaten jaguar. What does it taste like? Well, 261 00:11:53.929 --> 00:11:56.909 this one was sort of, this was a sick jaguar. 262 00:11:56.950 --> 00:11:59.200 But it's stringy meat. I mean, it's very muscly meat. 263 00:11:59.259 --> 00:12:00.000 Is it a sick one? 264 00:12:01.120 --> 00:12:04.120 Yeah, that's how they wound up killing it, I found 265 00:12:04.159 --> 00:12:05.980 out later. I was really impressed, you know, they killed 266 00:12:06.019 --> 00:12:08.519 a jaguar. And they have killed many jaguars. But this 267 00:12:08.620 --> 00:12:10.320 one turned out to be a sick jaguar, which is 268 00:12:10.379 --> 00:12:11.759 why he attacked the woman. 269 00:12:12.470 --> 00:12:14.129 Like he was starving to death or something? 270 00:12:14.169 --> 00:12:16.409 Yeah, he was starving. So the men killed it. and 271 00:12:16.450 --> 00:12:18.250 ate it. But I did, my children were with me 272 00:12:18.309 --> 00:12:21.110 this whole time. So I told my children, I said, 273 00:12:21.129 --> 00:12:24.879 just remember who's eating whom out there. 274 00:12:24.919 --> 00:12:26.200 So do you remember what it tastes like? 275 00:12:27.399 --> 00:12:29.740 Well, it's a, it's a stringy meat. It's really hard 276 00:12:29.779 --> 00:12:31.559 to describe all the, all the tastes. 277 00:12:32.240 --> 00:12:33.480 Like very sinewy? 278 00:12:33.500 --> 00:12:33.820 It's tough. 279 00:12:33.980 --> 00:12:34.159 Yeah. 280 00:12:34.179 --> 00:12:39.269 Sinewy and very tough. And my general rule of thumb, 281 00:12:39.690 --> 00:12:41.990 I eat anything that they kill, but my general rule 282 00:12:42.029 --> 00:12:44.309 of thumb is I usually have a bottle of Tabasco 283 00:12:44.350 --> 00:12:47.029 sauce and And if you put Tabasco sauce on it, 284 00:12:47.090 --> 00:12:47.549 it's okay. 285 00:12:48.190 --> 00:12:51.350 And so these pitahas, am I saying it right? 286 00:12:51.429 --> 00:12:52.750 Yeah, that's right. 287 00:12:53.570 --> 00:12:55.309 They don't preserve anything, right? 288 00:12:55.330 --> 00:12:55.429 No. 289 00:12:55.450 --> 00:12:57.570 They just kill things and cook them. 290 00:12:58.110 --> 00:13:01.509 Yeah, they don't, you know, many, many different groups smoke 291 00:13:01.570 --> 00:13:04.100 the meat or salt the meat if they have salt 292 00:13:05.009 --> 00:13:08.279 or dry it. And the pitahas know how to do that. 293 00:13:08.379 --> 00:13:09.679 I don't know where they learn how to do it 294 00:13:09.740 --> 00:13:11.919 because they never do it except if they want to 295 00:13:11.980 --> 00:13:14.870 trade the meat with Brazilian boats who come up. But 296 00:13:14.909 --> 00:13:17.409 among themselves, they don't preserve any meat. You know, I 297 00:13:17.450 --> 00:13:20.269 was talking to a guy one time and, you know, 298 00:13:20.289 --> 00:13:22.360 why don't you preserve your meat? And he says, oh, 299 00:13:22.409 --> 00:13:25.769 I preserve it in the belly of my brother. So 300 00:13:25.909 --> 00:13:28.250 they share it. And if I get meat, I give 301 00:13:28.289 --> 00:13:30.009 you some. And if you get meat, you give me some. 302 00:13:30.080 --> 00:13:30.720 So why would I? 303 00:13:31.100 --> 00:13:33.620 Right. So there's no need to store. And also, I 304 00:13:33.899 --> 00:13:36.700 guess it's very abundant. There's a lot of life where 305 00:13:36.740 --> 00:13:39.080 they live, like in terms of fish and game. 306 00:13:39.720 --> 00:13:40.279 There have been. 307 00:13:40.320 --> 00:13:40.480 Yeah. 308 00:13:40.539 --> 00:13:43.019 I mean, they live on this river, the Micey River. 309 00:13:43.809 --> 00:13:46.750 And they're the only humans that live along the river 310 00:13:47.269 --> 00:13:51.299 for almost 300 miles of the curvy river. And it's 311 00:13:51.360 --> 00:13:54.440 a relatively large river by U.S. standards. In Brazil, it 312 00:13:54.460 --> 00:13:56.840 doesn't even make many of the maps. But it's a 313 00:13:56.860 --> 00:14:00.299 couple of hundred yards across. And in the rainy season, 314 00:14:00.340 --> 00:14:04.500 it can be as much as 75 feet deep, 100 315 00:14:04.500 --> 00:14:08.259 feet deep. So there's plenty of fish for them. In 316 00:14:08.320 --> 00:14:12.480 recent years, that's changed because the Brazilian... Government has allowed 317 00:14:12.500 --> 00:14:16.340 the construction of dams across various rivers. Not their river, 318 00:14:16.399 --> 00:14:19.519 but they affect the water level so much that it's 319 00:14:19.610 --> 00:14:21.590 taken all the fish, most of the fish out of 320 00:14:21.610 --> 00:14:24.610 their river. So now they're starving. And this has led 321 00:14:24.710 --> 00:14:28.850 to conflict with Brazilians who live not too far away. 322 00:14:28.909 --> 00:14:31.740 And they've killed a few people stealing food from their 323 00:14:31.840 --> 00:14:32.720 farms and things. 324 00:14:33.379 --> 00:14:37.950 Oh, man. Can you imagine? You just have this... kind 325 00:14:37.970 --> 00:14:41.110 of harmonious existence with nature and someone just decides to 326 00:14:41.149 --> 00:14:44.029 make a dam. Like you've got it so dialed in 327 00:14:44.049 --> 00:14:46.230 that you don't need to preserve your food. Right. Because 328 00:14:46.309 --> 00:14:48.889 everyone's just like happy and eating fish right out of 329 00:14:48.909 --> 00:14:50.779 the river. Right. 330 00:14:51.340 --> 00:14:55.139 And, you know, that's, they don't know where the dam is. 331 00:14:55.179 --> 00:14:57.500 They've never seen the dam. I told them that they 332 00:14:57.539 --> 00:15:00.600 built something that crosses the river like a wall. And 333 00:15:01.639 --> 00:15:03.820 they say, why do they do that? And I said, well, 334 00:15:03.840 --> 00:15:07.289 they want electricity, which they barely understand. They've seen I 335 00:15:07.309 --> 00:15:09.950 have a generator. I never had one for the first 336 00:15:09.950 --> 00:15:13.019 20 years I was working with them, but I eventually 337 00:15:13.059 --> 00:15:15.200 got a generator and they could see what electricity was. 338 00:15:15.240 --> 00:15:17.720 And I said, so that's where they get the lights. 339 00:15:19.159 --> 00:15:22.679 But they don't understand it. And it's for the first 340 00:15:22.740 --> 00:15:24.779 time in their history, and they've been living there as 341 00:15:24.830 --> 00:15:28.110 far as I can tell for almost 300 years on 342 00:15:28.149 --> 00:15:31.730 this one river. For the first time in their history, 343 00:15:31.789 --> 00:15:36.549 they can't be self-sufficient in proteins. 344 00:15:38.059 --> 00:15:40.899 That's crazy. And how long ago did they build this dam? 345 00:15:42.519 --> 00:15:45.879 I think it was about 10 years ago. But they didn't, 346 00:15:46.720 --> 00:15:50.820 when it first went into operation, then it flooded the entire, 347 00:15:51.639 --> 00:15:54.330 lots of farmland, lots of settlements and things up on 348 00:15:54.350 --> 00:15:57.490 the Madata. But what was shocking was that way down 349 00:15:57.570 --> 00:16:01.570 river from the dam, it affected the water level so 350 00:16:01.629 --> 00:16:06.409 much that when their river, the Maisee, goes to its 351 00:16:06.490 --> 00:16:12.340 lowest point, in the dry season, there's still only a 352 00:16:12.379 --> 00:16:15.139 few places where you can see the bottom of the river. 353 00:16:15.200 --> 00:16:17.220 Most of the places, even when it's at its lowest, 354 00:16:17.259 --> 00:16:20.139 you can't see the bottom of the river. But in 355 00:16:20.159 --> 00:16:22.000 the last couple of years, it's gotten so low you 356 00:16:22.039 --> 00:16:22.799 can walk across. 357 00:16:23.620 --> 00:16:24.590 Oh, wow. 358 00:16:24.730 --> 00:16:25.870 And the fish don't stay there. 359 00:16:28.149 --> 00:16:29.230 So what are these people eating? 360 00:16:30.269 --> 00:16:33.330 Well, they go hunting, which they don't like to do. 361 00:16:33.370 --> 00:16:35.870 But of course, when the fish are gone and when 362 00:16:35.909 --> 00:16:38.649 the river's gone, You lose a lot of the game 363 00:16:38.690 --> 00:16:40.669 from the jungle. So they have to go, instead of 364 00:16:40.730 --> 00:16:43.570 going a mile into the jungle, they have to go 365 00:16:43.649 --> 00:16:46.730 many miles into the jungle. And they're still not successful. 366 00:16:46.830 --> 00:16:50.720 So it's busting up communities. Some people are moving out 367 00:16:50.750 --> 00:16:54.129 of their normal area to other areas to try to, 368 00:16:54.379 --> 00:16:56.860 you know, back on bigger rivers. But then that means 369 00:16:56.879 --> 00:17:00.700 they're surrounded by Brazilians and they're no longer leading the 370 00:17:00.759 --> 00:17:01.899 life that they used to lead. 371 00:17:04.039 --> 00:17:08.329 So... When they move into these civilization areas, are they 372 00:17:08.529 --> 00:17:11.930 integrating or are they trying to like stay as a 373 00:17:12.029 --> 00:17:15.829 tribe removed from urban society? Like how are they doing it? 374 00:17:16.309 --> 00:17:20.529 Well, up until about five years ago, they would never 375 00:17:20.569 --> 00:17:24.289 have thought about integrating. They would live in like ghettos. 376 00:17:24.410 --> 00:17:27.369 If they were out near some town, they would live 377 00:17:27.410 --> 00:17:29.589 in the jungle away from the town because that whole 378 00:17:29.630 --> 00:17:32.170 part of Brazil is covered in jungle. Even the cities 379 00:17:32.230 --> 00:17:33.289 are bordered by jungle. 380 00:17:33.569 --> 00:17:33.710 Right. 381 00:17:34.240 --> 00:17:38.269 But nowadays, because there's no food anywhere, they're trying to 382 00:17:38.349 --> 00:17:44.269 integrate more. They're trying to learn Portuguese. And it's a 383 00:17:44.309 --> 00:17:47.779 very unfortunate situation for them right now. 384 00:17:48.259 --> 00:17:52.799 That's such a bummer. That sucks so hard. So when 385 00:17:52.960 --> 00:17:58.460 you first got there, your aim was to try to 386 00:17:58.509 --> 00:17:59.650 convert them to Christianity. 387 00:17:59.890 --> 00:18:02.440 That's right. I went there to translate the Bible and 388 00:18:02.460 --> 00:18:04.480 to plant a church and get everybody believing. 389 00:18:04.569 --> 00:18:06.990 And why Pitahah? Why did you go to those people? 390 00:18:07.470 --> 00:18:10.529 Well, we were in our training, and the missionary organization, 391 00:18:10.589 --> 00:18:14.789 the Wycliffe Bible Translators, offered us three areas. They said, 392 00:18:14.809 --> 00:18:16.490 you can go to New Guinea. We need people in 393 00:18:16.529 --> 00:18:19.869 New Guinea. You can go to Mexico, or you can 394 00:18:19.910 --> 00:18:22.690 go to Brazil. And in Brazil, there's this tribe called 395 00:18:22.710 --> 00:18:26.009 the Pitahah. that we've had two teams assigned to, and 396 00:18:26.049 --> 00:18:28.230 nobody's been able to figure out the language because it's 397 00:18:28.269 --> 00:18:31.890 not related to any other known living language. And so 398 00:18:31.950 --> 00:18:33.690 they said, if you're up for that challenge, and we 399 00:18:33.730 --> 00:18:36.599 know you did well in linguistics, we'd be happy to 400 00:18:36.630 --> 00:18:39.900 have you take that group. So I thought, well, sure, 401 00:18:39.940 --> 00:18:41.539 I'm up for a challenge, so we took that. 402 00:18:42.359 --> 00:18:43.039 And so this was 1977? 403 00:18:43.009 --> 00:18:43.059 1977. 404 00:18:43.039 --> 00:18:45.119 We were assigned there in 76, and I made my 405 00:18:45.380 --> 00:18:53.819 first trip in in December of 1977. And so how 406 00:18:53.859 --> 00:18:58.369 much of the language did you know before you got there? Nothing. Nothing? 407 00:18:58.509 --> 00:18:59.049 No. 408 00:18:59.130 --> 00:19:02.079 What do we know in terms of like before you 409 00:19:02.119 --> 00:19:05.539 got there? Was it recorded? Was it something that people understood? 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Portuguese explorers made contact and they didn't 425 00:20:12.039 --> 00:20:15.619 take lists of words They they wrote a few descriptive 426 00:20:15.640 --> 00:20:19.220 things about the language and about the people And those 427 00:20:19.259 --> 00:20:24.000 things still fit them today and then in 1821 a 428 00:20:24.329 --> 00:20:26.569 German explorer went there and he took a long list 429 00:20:26.609 --> 00:20:29.769 of words which was amazing because he didn't have linguistics 430 00:20:29.829 --> 00:20:34.730 or anything like that and His list of words is 431 00:20:34.769 --> 00:20:41.319 pretty good and then in 1920 Another German who naturalized Brazilian, 432 00:20:42.359 --> 00:20:46.059 the founder of Brazilian anthropology, went there and took a 433 00:20:46.099 --> 00:20:49.589 much larger word list, and that one is very good. 434 00:20:50.029 --> 00:20:52.049 And so I had those little word lists. They're not much, 435 00:20:52.190 --> 00:20:54.690 and there's no how does the grammar work or anything 436 00:20:54.730 --> 00:20:57.730 like that. It's just lists of words. So I had 437 00:20:57.769 --> 00:21:01.769 looked at those, but it's a tone language, and so 438 00:21:01.809 --> 00:21:03.640 they hadn't written the tone, so I had no idea 439 00:21:03.680 --> 00:21:06.829 how to pronounce the words. To give you an example 440 00:21:06.849 --> 00:21:10.450 of what a tone language is, so if I want 441 00:21:10.490 --> 00:21:14.000 to say friend, I say magiai. And if I want 442 00:21:14.019 --> 00:21:17.559 to say enemy, it's magiai. 443 00:21:18.660 --> 00:21:19.420 What's the difference? 444 00:21:19.579 --> 00:21:21.940 So if I whistle it, friend is whoop, whoop, whoop. 445 00:21:22.859 --> 00:21:26.390 And if I whistle enemy, it's whoop, whoop, whoop. If 446 00:21:26.430 --> 00:21:29.289 you can't hear the tones, you don't know what's going on. 447 00:21:29.710 --> 00:21:35.359 So the word for me is chie. And the word 448 00:21:35.400 --> 00:21:39.220 for shit is je. So, you know, you can be 449 00:21:39.259 --> 00:21:42.259 talking about yourself and everybody starts laughing because you've called 450 00:21:42.279 --> 00:21:43.980 yourself shit. 451 00:21:44.900 --> 00:21:46.000 Because you have the wrong tone. 452 00:21:46.180 --> 00:21:48.279 Because you have the wrong tone. So, you know, there 453 00:21:48.299 --> 00:21:51.319 are a lot of tone languages in the world, Mandarin, tonal, Korean, 454 00:21:51.720 --> 00:21:54.720 somewhat tonal, and many languages of Africa are tonal. But 455 00:21:55.460 --> 00:21:58.579 for those of us who speak European languages, this is 456 00:21:58.619 --> 00:22:01.240 just really weird and it's hard to hear. 457 00:22:01.259 --> 00:22:03.940 A complete mind shift. Yeah. 458 00:22:04.829 --> 00:22:07.450 So you've got to be able to pay attention to 459 00:22:07.490 --> 00:22:11.970 those tones. But the first thing you have to do 460 00:22:12.049 --> 00:22:14.309 is start just collecting words. So I would point at 461 00:22:14.349 --> 00:22:17.150 things my first day, my first hour. I was pointing 462 00:22:17.210 --> 00:22:19.140 at things and writing down what they said, and that 463 00:22:19.180 --> 00:22:22.119 was the basic linguistics I had had, phonetics, how to 464 00:22:22.160 --> 00:22:24.880 write down sounds of the world's languages. 465 00:22:25.839 --> 00:22:29.440 And when you got there, so on day one, how 466 00:22:29.460 --> 00:22:32.069 do you make a connection? Do you just show up? Hey, 467 00:22:32.150 --> 00:22:34.650 brought you the Bible. Everyone have a seat. How do 468 00:22:34.690 --> 00:22:35.269 you do this? 469 00:22:35.450 --> 00:22:39.089 Well, I got off and I started handing candy to 470 00:22:39.109 --> 00:22:39.509 the kids. 471 00:22:40.230 --> 00:22:40.609 Good move. 472 00:22:40.730 --> 00:22:45.619 That works. And the people were very curious because I'm 473 00:22:45.640 --> 00:22:49.019 this white guy with red hair. At that time, I 474 00:22:49.059 --> 00:22:51.920 had bright red hair and they found me curious to 475 00:22:51.960 --> 00:22:55.180 look at. And so they came around. They could tell, 476 00:22:55.670 --> 00:22:57.589 you know, at least I think they thought they could 477 00:22:57.609 --> 00:23:00.710 tell that I was no danger to them. They know 478 00:23:00.730 --> 00:23:02.920 how to deal with that very quickly if they sense danger. 479 00:23:04.700 --> 00:23:06.640 So then I would just start pointing at things. I 480 00:23:07.119 --> 00:23:11.019 had my pen and paper, and I would get a stick, 481 00:23:11.200 --> 00:23:14.799 and I would say in English, you know, stick. And 482 00:23:14.839 --> 00:23:16.759 they know that I'm trying to communicate something, so they 483 00:23:16.799 --> 00:23:20.539 would say back, eh. And I thought, it probably means stick. 484 00:23:20.740 --> 00:23:22.200 And I would write that down. And then I would 485 00:23:22.220 --> 00:23:24.750 take the stick and drop it. And they would say, eh, 486 00:23:24.890 --> 00:23:28.089 he meke kaobi. And that means stick fell to the ground. 487 00:23:28.349 --> 00:23:30.970 And that's what I thought it meant. So that's how 488 00:23:31.029 --> 00:23:31.390 I started. 489 00:23:32.430 --> 00:23:35.529 That's what you thought it meant. What is the reaction 490 00:23:35.569 --> 00:23:38.869 to this person coming in and demanding that they teach 491 00:23:39.069 --> 00:23:39.730 the language? 492 00:23:41.019 --> 00:23:42.180 Well, I didn't demand. 493 00:23:42.380 --> 00:23:45.680 Well, you know, you have a requirement. You can't communicate, 494 00:23:45.700 --> 00:23:49.200 but you're there. So they're kind enough to welcome you. Yes. 495 00:23:49.640 --> 00:23:52.220 Are you in the actual camp with all these people? 496 00:23:52.240 --> 00:23:53.869 Yeah, I'm in the middle of their village. The plane 497 00:23:53.900 --> 00:23:56.150 let me off on, you know, landed on the river. 498 00:23:56.630 --> 00:23:57.009 I got out. 499 00:23:57.029 --> 00:23:59.710 And you don't even ask? You just, like, wander into 500 00:23:59.750 --> 00:24:00.150 their camp? 501 00:24:00.250 --> 00:24:01.839 There's no way to contact them ahead of time. 502 00:24:01.970 --> 00:24:04.660 This is crazy. Yeah. And you're just assuming they're not 503 00:24:04.700 --> 00:24:05.759 going to kill you. Is this you? 504 00:24:06.339 --> 00:24:08.539 This is the Pitaha. This is the Pitaha village, yep. 505 00:24:09.079 --> 00:24:10.339 And so this is what it looked like when you 506 00:24:10.359 --> 00:24:12.380 showed up. You're like, hi, what's a stick? 507 00:24:12.700 --> 00:24:16.109 Yeah, yeah, you land on the river, and you get there, 508 00:24:16.250 --> 00:24:21.910 and that's the Pitaha. Wow. And so they're very friendly, 509 00:24:22.309 --> 00:24:26.250 and they start talking. But, of course, I don't know 510 00:24:26.269 --> 00:24:28.089 what they say. They just see me as a very. 511 00:24:28.109 --> 00:24:30.200 Guy's got a Ferrari t-shirt on. What's up? 512 00:24:30.670 --> 00:24:35.630 Yeah, they— riverboats go in and give clothes. If a riverboat 513 00:24:35.670 --> 00:24:37.710 hasn't been there in a long time, they'll all be naked. 514 00:24:38.359 --> 00:24:44.799 Oh, wow. So— And so, like, day one, they just 515 00:24:45.579 --> 00:24:49.140 accept the fact that this redheaded dude just showed up 516 00:24:49.220 --> 00:24:50.200 and is hanging out with us now? 517 00:24:51.019 --> 00:24:52.680 Yeah, there were a couple of things that counted in 518 00:24:52.720 --> 00:24:55.809 my favor. I was all by myself, and so— Giving 519 00:24:55.869 --> 00:25:00.029 out candy was a big factor. They like to chew tobacco. 520 00:25:00.970 --> 00:25:03.079 And I had been told this by somebody who had 521 00:25:03.099 --> 00:25:05.960 been there. So I took in a big, long horn 522 00:25:06.039 --> 00:25:07.559 of tobacco. I don't know if it was a really 523 00:25:07.599 --> 00:25:09.180 old-fashioned way. A horn? 524 00:25:09.579 --> 00:25:10.900 Like an animal horn? 525 00:25:11.200 --> 00:25:14.960 No, it looks like an animal horn. But it's probably 526 00:25:15.319 --> 00:25:18.460 eight feet, nine feet long, just rolled up tight tobacco 527 00:25:18.539 --> 00:25:20.380 wrapped in latex. 528 00:25:20.559 --> 00:25:20.859 Really? 529 00:25:21.180 --> 00:25:22.920 Yeah, and you just cut it off for them, and 530 00:25:22.960 --> 00:25:24.019 they chew it, and they like it. 531 00:25:24.099 --> 00:25:24.279 So. 532 00:25:26.410 --> 00:25:28.829 I would, you know, the ones who would help me, 533 00:25:29.529 --> 00:25:32.269 I would give them a little bit of tobacco or candy. 534 00:25:33.329 --> 00:25:37.990 And I also brought canned food for me. And I 535 00:25:38.009 --> 00:25:40.730 would trade that to them for fish and other things 536 00:25:40.789 --> 00:25:42.930 that they got. And they liked that. 537 00:25:43.190 --> 00:25:44.579 How long did you stay initially? 538 00:25:45.430 --> 00:25:47.799 The first time was just to see what it was 539 00:25:47.859 --> 00:25:50.380 like before I brought my family. So I stayed 10 days. 540 00:25:51.099 --> 00:25:53.119 And then I came back with my family and we 541 00:25:53.180 --> 00:25:55.660 stayed a year at that time. We just stayed there 542 00:25:55.720 --> 00:25:56.180 the whole year. 543 00:25:56.750 --> 00:25:59.750 When you say family, so your wife and how many kids? 544 00:25:59.930 --> 00:26:00.849 Three kids. There they are. 545 00:26:00.890 --> 00:26:02.250 How old were the kids when you got there? 546 00:26:02.369 --> 00:26:06.109 Well, my oldest daughter, who there was about 12, was nine, 547 00:26:06.470 --> 00:26:09.470 and the middle daughter was six, and then my son 548 00:26:09.539 --> 00:26:14.440 was three years old. So this is around that time. 549 00:26:16.140 --> 00:26:19.319 And so my kids grew up among the Pitahon. Both 550 00:26:19.380 --> 00:26:22.039 my older daughters learned to speak the language fairly quickly. 551 00:26:22.480 --> 00:26:27.470 Wow, that's a risky move. You brought your little kids 552 00:26:27.509 --> 00:26:31.309 to the jungle. What is that decision like? Was that 553 00:26:31.329 --> 00:26:32.190 a difficult decision? 554 00:26:32.839 --> 00:26:34.880 Well, today it would be, but I was a Christian 555 00:26:35.200 --> 00:26:37.519 and I believed in miracles and I believed God would 556 00:26:37.539 --> 00:26:40.220 take care of us. And so I went there and 557 00:26:40.319 --> 00:26:42.579 figured he was in charge. He would take care of us. 558 00:26:42.619 --> 00:26:47.900 So my son got meningitis. My two daughters got malaria. 559 00:26:49.349 --> 00:26:52.069 I got malaria. In fact, after a few years, I 560 00:26:52.089 --> 00:26:54.769 went to San Diego and I I came down with 561 00:26:54.789 --> 00:26:59.700 malaria in University Hospital San Diego. They were thrilled because 562 00:26:59.740 --> 00:27:01.539 I was the only person they'd ever seen with all 563 00:27:01.579 --> 00:27:04.700 three strains of South American malaria at the same time. 564 00:27:05.140 --> 00:27:09.589 Did you have a relapse of malaria? Because I have 565 00:27:09.619 --> 00:27:13.069 a friend who got malaria in the Congo, and it 566 00:27:13.130 --> 00:27:13.789 came back. 567 00:27:14.829 --> 00:27:17.029 It can come back, and I've had relapses, but it's 568 00:27:17.089 --> 00:27:19.390 been a long time now that I haven't had relapses. 569 00:27:19.990 --> 00:27:23.769 I've taken so much medicine that supposedly— It won't come 570 00:27:23.809 --> 00:27:25.950 back anymore. But I can never give blood because it's 571 00:27:26.009 --> 00:27:26.829 always in my blood. 572 00:27:27.609 --> 00:27:29.769 What do they give you? Like what medicine they give you? 573 00:27:29.809 --> 00:27:35.950 Well, Daraprim, Primaquin, straight quinine. When my wife almost died, 574 00:27:37.289 --> 00:27:42.730 she weighed 115 pounds. And then she got malaria and 575 00:27:42.769 --> 00:27:47.009 almost died. She got down to 76 pounds. And the 576 00:27:47.049 --> 00:27:48.910 doctor told me she's going to die tonight. We don't 577 00:27:48.950 --> 00:27:50.119 have any way to keep her alive. 578 00:27:50.150 --> 00:27:51.259 Oh, my God. And. 579 00:27:52.009 --> 00:27:54.630 They put her on blood transfusions because you lose a 580 00:27:54.670 --> 00:27:57.750 lot of blood. It kills the blood cells. And they 581 00:27:57.769 --> 00:28:01.410 put her on blood transfusions and also straight quinine, which 582 00:28:01.470 --> 00:28:05.089 caused her to be in agony for several days of 583 00:28:05.319 --> 00:28:09.400 just constant retching. And quinine is a really bad experience. 584 00:28:10.200 --> 00:28:11.380 But at the end of it, she pulled through. 585 00:28:11.500 --> 00:28:12.119 She pulled through. 586 00:28:12.140 --> 00:28:13.099 Oh, my God. 587 00:28:13.119 --> 00:28:15.279 Yeah, yeah. We all pulled through. 588 00:28:15.380 --> 00:28:18.460 You had to be like questioning your decisions. I mean, 589 00:28:18.700 --> 00:28:21.609 this has to be a trialing process. you know, very 590 00:28:21.660 --> 00:28:25.210 difficult time because you chose to be there. 591 00:28:26.170 --> 00:28:29.670 Yeah. And so we were leaving the village to find 592 00:28:29.730 --> 00:28:32.670 help because my wife and daughter were dying of malaria 593 00:28:32.809 --> 00:28:34.839 at this time where she got down to 76 pounds. 594 00:28:34.880 --> 00:28:37.319 And my daughter lost a lot of weight too. She 595 00:28:37.359 --> 00:28:42.279 was just skin and bones. And I'm getting my boat 596 00:28:42.359 --> 00:28:43.839 out of there. And I had never been out by boat. 597 00:28:43.859 --> 00:28:45.799 In fact, I didn't have a boat. We were, I 598 00:28:45.839 --> 00:28:47.289 had no idea how to get out of there. So 599 00:28:47.309 --> 00:28:50.359 this Catholic priest came up to see what the Protestant 600 00:28:50.400 --> 00:28:53.519 missionaries were doing. And I said, can I borrow your boat? 601 00:28:53.599 --> 00:28:54.900 I got to get my family out of here. He 602 00:28:54.960 --> 00:28:58.660 had this very narrow aluminum canoe with a six horsepower Johnson. 603 00:28:59.400 --> 00:29:01.940 And I got my whole family in there and he 604 00:29:01.960 --> 00:29:04.359 just stayed there in the jungle and let my family 605 00:29:04.400 --> 00:29:08.220 take off in his boat. And I didn't know where 606 00:29:08.279 --> 00:29:09.779 we were, but I was thinking, you know, I've read 607 00:29:09.819 --> 00:29:12.720 all these books about missionaries and now I'm having a 608 00:29:12.759 --> 00:29:18.599 missionary experience, but it wasn't fun. it was really, it 609 00:29:18.640 --> 00:29:20.960 was horrific experience. And I just didn't know what was 610 00:29:20.980 --> 00:29:21.519 going to happen. 611 00:29:23.099 --> 00:29:26.619 So your goal was to convert these people. And how 612 00:29:26.680 --> 00:29:27.609 long were you there for? 613 00:29:29.190 --> 00:29:32.750 Well, I was there in 1980. I spent the whole 614 00:29:32.809 --> 00:29:36.210 year there. And in all the other years from 1977 615 00:29:36.210 --> 00:29:40.279 to 2013, I was there for three to six months 616 00:29:40.339 --> 00:29:44.420 every year so i was there a lot and um 617 00:29:45.279 --> 00:29:48.240 got sick every time i went i had typhoid fever 618 00:29:48.279 --> 00:29:52.880 and all this stuff but um uh attacked by snakes 619 00:29:53.000 --> 00:29:58.460 and stuff like that but um It was just a 620 00:29:58.500 --> 00:30:03.049 mind-altering experience. Things didn't go the way I thought. And 621 00:30:03.970 --> 00:30:08.170 the people started questioning me. They started asking me about, 622 00:30:08.410 --> 00:30:10.509 why do you believe in this Jesus you keep telling 623 00:30:10.569 --> 00:30:11.569 us about? What's he like? 624 00:30:12.589 --> 00:30:17.089 And you're doing this also, you're translating these concepts from 625 00:30:17.289 --> 00:30:18.529 English to Pidaha. 626 00:30:18.890 --> 00:30:22.519 From Greek to Pidaha. Going from the Greek New Testament, 627 00:30:22.539 --> 00:30:24.599 because I was translating the New Testament, so going from 628 00:30:24.680 --> 00:30:29.059 Greek to Pitahum, but I'm referencing English and Portuguese at 629 00:30:29.099 --> 00:30:29.759 the same time. 630 00:30:29.880 --> 00:30:30.539 Oh my goodness. 631 00:30:30.920 --> 00:30:31.680 I'm staying in there. 632 00:30:31.880 --> 00:30:33.960 And you expect these people to understand what you're saying. 633 00:30:34.980 --> 00:30:36.740 Yeah. So, you know, if you're in the middle of 634 00:30:36.759 --> 00:30:39.680 the jungle and Jesus does something out in a desert, 635 00:30:41.119 --> 00:30:42.259 how do you describe desert? 636 00:30:42.640 --> 00:30:46.460 Isn't their language a completely different language than ours? Like 637 00:30:46.539 --> 00:30:50.200 in terms of like, they have no words for color. Right. 638 00:30:50.220 --> 00:30:51.500 They have no words for direction. 639 00:30:51.519 --> 00:30:56.569 They And this all takes time to find out because 640 00:30:56.619 --> 00:30:58.890 when I went there, I thought everybody had words for colors. 641 00:30:58.970 --> 00:31:02.039 Everybody had words for numbers. Everybody had a concept of God. 642 00:31:02.059 --> 00:31:05.220 Right. They don't have words for numbers. That's so crazy. 643 00:31:05.240 --> 00:31:05.859 Yeah, they don't have. 644 00:31:06.380 --> 00:31:07.339 Do they have numbers? 645 00:31:07.779 --> 00:31:08.900 No, no numbers. 646 00:31:09.160 --> 00:31:11.559 So how many fish did you catch today, Mike? 647 00:31:12.700 --> 00:31:13.019 A lot. 648 00:31:13.480 --> 00:31:13.759 That's it. 649 00:31:13.779 --> 00:31:14.380 That's it. 650 00:31:14.380 --> 00:31:15.259 A lot or a little. 651 00:31:15.339 --> 00:31:16.019 A lot or a little. 652 00:31:17.140 --> 00:31:17.799 Or a good amount. 653 00:31:18.059 --> 00:31:23.099 Yeah, yeah. So in fact, that claim was really controversial. 654 00:31:23.119 --> 00:31:27.410 I've had psycholinguists and cognitive scientists come down with me 655 00:31:27.450 --> 00:31:28.430 to do experiments. 656 00:31:28.470 --> 00:31:30.269 Didn't you get into it with Chomsky about that? 657 00:31:31.150 --> 00:31:34.470 Well, I got into it with Chomsky about their grammar. 658 00:31:35.099 --> 00:31:36.259 Yes. Oh, that's right. 659 00:31:36.380 --> 00:31:39.880 Chomsky made this claim. I've gotten other people. There have 660 00:31:39.940 --> 00:31:42.519 been people who find every claim controversial. So there's some 661 00:31:42.559 --> 00:31:44.920 people can't believe they don't have numbers. Some people who 662 00:31:44.960 --> 00:31:47.420 don't believe they don't have a concept of God. Other 663 00:31:47.460 --> 00:31:49.809 people who believe they don't, who don't believe they don't 664 00:31:49.849 --> 00:31:55.160 have colors. Um, but, um, Chomsky claimed that all languages 665 00:31:55.240 --> 00:32:00.400 are built on a common property called recursion. And recursion 666 00:32:00.480 --> 00:32:03.640 is this, English has it all over the place. So 667 00:32:03.980 --> 00:32:08.309 it's the ability to put one unit inside another unit 668 00:32:08.390 --> 00:32:10.710 of the same type. So take a noun. If I 669 00:32:10.769 --> 00:32:14.650 take the noun truck and the noun driver and I 670 00:32:14.690 --> 00:32:17.410 put them together, I can form a third word, truck driver. 671 00:32:18.549 --> 00:32:20.799 And so that's recursion. I put one noun inside another 672 00:32:20.839 --> 00:32:22.900 and I get a third noun. Or with a sentence, 673 00:32:22.960 --> 00:32:26.319 I can say John spoke. There's no recursion there. I 674 00:32:26.339 --> 00:32:29.940 can say John said that Bill spoke. And now that's 675 00:32:29.960 --> 00:32:34.630 got recursion because Bill spoke is a sentence inside John 676 00:32:34.710 --> 00:32:39.390 said that. And so Chomsky claimed, and in my opinion, 677 00:32:39.430 --> 00:32:42.329 without doing a lot of homework on this, I mean, 678 00:32:42.349 --> 00:32:45.269 he just was basing it on languages that he happened 679 00:32:45.349 --> 00:32:49.559 to know, which aren't many, that all languages were built 680 00:32:49.619 --> 00:32:51.980 on this. It made sense. And he had a principles 681 00:32:52.059 --> 00:32:54.799 built into his theory that required this. So when I 682 00:32:54.839 --> 00:32:57.900 came along and said they don't have it, and now 683 00:32:57.920 --> 00:33:00.279 I know there are other languages that don't have it, 684 00:33:02.079 --> 00:33:06.059 this was like saying you're wrong. And for me, a 685 00:33:06.799 --> 00:33:10.740 relative nobody, to tell the most famous linguist in history, 686 00:33:11.099 --> 00:33:13.619 somebody that Chomsky was called by the New York Times 687 00:33:13.660 --> 00:33:18.140 the most important intellectual alive, to tell him that he's wrong, 688 00:33:19.740 --> 00:33:25.740 a lot of people found that very Weird, you know, unbelievable. Yeah, problematic. 689 00:33:26.099 --> 00:33:27.140 But facts are facts. 690 00:33:27.680 --> 00:33:27.900 Yeah. 691 00:33:28.079 --> 00:33:30.420 I mean, it should be exciting for a linguist to 692 00:33:30.460 --> 00:33:33.000 look at something that violates all the laws of other 693 00:33:33.039 --> 00:33:33.759 known languages. 694 00:33:33.920 --> 00:33:38.069 It was exciting for some linguists and really off-pissing for 695 00:33:38.089 --> 00:33:39.069 a lot of other linguists. 696 00:33:39.109 --> 00:33:42.150 Isn't that gross? That's so gross. Yeah. That is one 697 00:33:42.170 --> 00:33:46.529 of the grossest things about intellectuals, this gatekeeping of information 698 00:33:46.569 --> 00:33:49.170 and this appeal to authority that they're the only person 699 00:33:49.190 --> 00:33:53.509 who could possibly know Especially when you're talking about languages. Like, 700 00:33:53.589 --> 00:33:54.930 how many languages are there? 701 00:33:55.130 --> 00:33:57.930 There are about 8,000 separate languages in the world. 702 00:33:58.049 --> 00:34:02.619 Okay. How the fuck could you know all the rules 703 00:34:03.319 --> 00:34:04.400 to 8,000 languages? 704 00:34:04.680 --> 00:34:07.079 We don't have data on more than about 1,200 or so. 705 00:34:07.140 --> 00:34:10.519 Well, isn't there also an issue with the Aboriginal tribes 706 00:34:10.900 --> 00:34:15.460 of Australia? My good friend Adam Greentree, he's from Australia, 707 00:34:15.679 --> 00:34:18.050 and he was running a mine there for a while 708 00:34:18.210 --> 00:34:21.360 and worked with a lot of Aboriginal people and really 709 00:34:21.400 --> 00:34:25.559 learned a lot about their cultures. And they're called mobs, 710 00:34:25.860 --> 00:34:29.019 like their tribe, they call it a mob. And there 711 00:34:29.039 --> 00:34:32.039 could be a mob that's just like 30 kilometers over 712 00:34:32.059 --> 00:34:34.579 that way. They have no idea what they're saying. They 713 00:34:34.659 --> 00:34:36.739 don't know the language and it's not written anywhere. And 714 00:34:36.760 --> 00:34:39.670 there's hundreds of these. They're all over the place. Right. 715 00:34:40.110 --> 00:34:42.510 And the bit of fieldwork that has been done, there 716 00:34:42.550 --> 00:34:44.829 are some really good Australian linguists trying to figure out 717 00:34:44.869 --> 00:34:47.590 these things, but the fieldwork that has been done has 718 00:34:47.630 --> 00:34:51.050 found properties that that aren't like anything else we know about. 719 00:34:52.050 --> 00:34:56.590 So languages can vary so much that it's really premature, 720 00:34:56.880 --> 00:35:00.960 in my opinion, to be writing laws that languages are 721 00:35:01.000 --> 00:35:03.940 supposed to follow, all 8,000 of these languages. 722 00:35:04.079 --> 00:35:06.380 Well, all you'd have to do is say, as far 723 00:35:06.500 --> 00:35:09.829 as we've observed, and then you're okay. But as soon 724 00:35:09.889 --> 00:35:12.230 as you say it has to have this, and if 725 00:35:12.269 --> 00:35:15.179 someone says actually a language that doesn't have this, And 726 00:35:15.239 --> 00:35:18.150 then there's a controversy. You're a bad guy for pointing 727 00:35:18.190 --> 00:35:18.670 this out. 728 00:35:19.190 --> 00:35:24.190 You're a heretic. I had one of Chomsky's followers who 729 00:35:24.230 --> 00:35:27.590 was Brazilian write to the Brazilian Indian Agency, which is 730 00:35:27.750 --> 00:35:31.360 where I get my authorization to visit these tribes, and say, 731 00:35:31.380 --> 00:35:35.329 this Dan Everett guy, he's a racist. That's what they 732 00:35:35.369 --> 00:35:35.769 always say. 733 00:35:35.969 --> 00:35:37.530 Yeah. Isn't that the fun one? 734 00:35:37.710 --> 00:35:38.449 Yeah. 735 00:35:38.710 --> 00:35:40.320 The moment they want to get rid of you, you're 736 00:35:40.340 --> 00:35:40.739 a racist. 737 00:35:40.949 --> 00:35:43.199 Yeah. Well, she was silly because she said he's trying 738 00:35:43.219 --> 00:35:46.079 to reduce the pitahas to primates. And I said, well, 739 00:35:46.119 --> 00:35:48.699 in fact, I am because we're all primates. I'm a primate. 740 00:35:48.719 --> 00:35:52.179 You're a primate. But it's the thing. If Chomsky says 741 00:35:52.219 --> 00:35:55.960 that all languages have X and I say here's a 742 00:35:55.980 --> 00:35:58.900 language that doesn't have X, then either A, Chomsky's wrong 743 00:35:59.360 --> 00:36:01.659 or B, these aren't humans. And so the only person 744 00:36:01.679 --> 00:36:04.179 who would claim they're not humans is a racist. 745 00:36:04.719 --> 00:36:06.929 That's such a crazy way to put it. 746 00:36:07.179 --> 00:36:07.440 Yeah. 747 00:36:07.599 --> 00:36:09.550 It's so stupid. Yeah. God. 748 00:36:09.679 --> 00:36:11.619 But this is typical in science. As I got more 749 00:36:11.639 --> 00:36:14.769 and more into science, it's very unfortunate. 750 00:36:14.849 --> 00:36:18.329 It's men. It's men and their egos. That's what it is. 751 00:36:18.449 --> 00:36:21.989 And I'm sure women as well, but primarily men. 752 00:36:22.889 --> 00:36:24.929 Well, you know, you don't get a lot of money 753 00:36:24.949 --> 00:36:27.750 when you're a scientist. It's not a money-making profession. You 754 00:36:27.769 --> 00:36:32.070 go into what is the biggest rate of exchange among scientists? 755 00:36:32.110 --> 00:36:32.530 It's ego. 756 00:36:33.219 --> 00:36:35.119 But it's just so crazy to think that if it 757 00:36:35.159 --> 00:36:39.000 doesn't have this one characteristic of language that you're calling 758 00:36:39.039 --> 00:36:41.639 them primates, there's not a value judgment. You're saying it's 759 00:36:41.679 --> 00:36:43.719 a different kind of language. And this is fascinating. 760 00:36:43.960 --> 00:36:49.219 Exactly. That's my take. And many anthropologists took that. This, 761 00:36:49.239 --> 00:36:54.570 you know, so for example, they originally said that Homo 762 00:36:54.610 --> 00:36:58.210 erectus had no capability for human speech. And I thought 763 00:36:58.230 --> 00:37:01.630 that was kind of a questionable statement since you know, 764 00:37:01.650 --> 00:37:03.389 I've read a lot on Homo erectus, read a book 765 00:37:03.429 --> 00:37:10.679 about it, and they don't, um, um, they, all their accomplishments, 766 00:37:10.719 --> 00:37:13.539 they had to have pretty advanced language to account for 767 00:37:13.559 --> 00:37:15.840 the fact that the ocean was never a barrier for them. 768 00:37:16.619 --> 00:37:19.869 And so I said that Homo erectus had language, and 769 00:37:19.909 --> 00:37:22.070 I think the evidence supports that, but they don't have 770 00:37:22.489 --> 00:37:27.150 the kind of language Chomsky says necessarily. And, um, So 771 00:37:27.309 --> 00:37:30.199 an archaeologist at the University of Liverpool wrote me and 772 00:37:30.239 --> 00:37:32.699 he says, my specialty is Homo erectus, and I think 773 00:37:32.719 --> 00:37:35.719 you're right. So we wrote a paper together. And then 774 00:37:35.840 --> 00:37:39.920 after we wrote the paper, he discovered last year the 775 00:37:40.159 --> 00:37:45.539 oldest wooden structure known in all of human history, 500,000-year-old 776 00:37:45.599 --> 00:37:49.559 structure built by Homo erectus in Zambia. And he showed 777 00:37:49.599 --> 00:37:55.000 that it has interlocking pieces and parts that, Nobody ever 778 00:37:55.059 --> 00:37:57.050 expected Homo erectus to be able to do. And their 779 00:37:57.090 --> 00:37:59.929 brains weren't that much smaller than ours. You know, the 780 00:38:00.090 --> 00:38:04.030 average size of a modern human's brain is about 1200 781 00:38:04.030 --> 00:38:10.079 cc's for men and about 950 to 1100 cc's for women. 782 00:38:10.719 --> 00:38:12.920 And since we know that men aren't more intelligent than women, 783 00:38:12.980 --> 00:38:15.760 the size of the brain can't be what's determining that. 784 00:38:16.780 --> 00:38:18.679 Homo erectus had brains of 950 to 1000 cc's, you know, 785 00:38:18.699 --> 00:38:24.519 cubic centimeters. You measure that by taking the skull and 786 00:38:24.579 --> 00:38:27.079 filling it full of sand and seeing how much sand 787 00:38:27.119 --> 00:38:31.380 fits in there. And so they were able to make 788 00:38:31.420 --> 00:38:33.940 these complex structures and they were able to make boats 789 00:38:34.039 --> 00:38:36.840 and they were able to do all these things. Yeah, 790 00:38:36.960 --> 00:38:40.639 that's what Larry Barham from the University of Liverpool discovered. 791 00:38:41.460 --> 00:38:44.440 This structure, you see the cross piece. And he recently 792 00:38:44.500 --> 00:38:50.300 gave a talk to a world association of archaeologists to 793 00:38:50.320 --> 00:38:53.000 get their judgment on what this could be. Not archaeologists, 794 00:38:53.039 --> 00:38:57.179 but architects, to get their professional judgment. And they were 795 00:38:57.320 --> 00:38:59.619 really impressed by this. They said that's actually a pretty 796 00:38:59.679 --> 00:39:04.099 advanced structure for building a walkway or a house. 797 00:39:04.719 --> 00:39:07.900 We actually discussed this yesterday. I had a guy named 798 00:39:07.920 --> 00:39:10.960 Michael Button. He's got a fantastic YouTube channel. It's all 799 00:39:10.980 --> 00:39:15.110 about sort of the mysteries of human history. And we 800 00:39:15.139 --> 00:39:18.050 talked about the seafaring aspect and how much evidence there 801 00:39:18.139 --> 00:39:20.829 is that these people were seafaring as much as a 802 00:39:20.849 --> 00:39:21.590 million years ago. 803 00:39:21.769 --> 00:39:25.179 Yeah, yeah. And in my book, How Language Began, I have. 804 00:39:25.340 --> 00:39:26.460 They had to be communicated. 805 00:39:26.880 --> 00:39:31.969 Yeah, you can't... There's an archaeologist in... Australia, Bednarik is 806 00:39:32.010 --> 00:39:37.510 his name, and he showed by... He did experiments, and 807 00:39:38.309 --> 00:39:41.130 they're not exact because you can't find humans today that 808 00:39:41.190 --> 00:39:44.969 don't have any language, normal humans. But he got humans 809 00:39:45.010 --> 00:39:48.010 from different languages who couldn't communicate with each other that 810 00:39:48.050 --> 00:39:50.929 well to see if they could build a boat. And 811 00:39:50.989 --> 00:39:53.769 then another linguist wrote a paper based on some of 812 00:39:53.809 --> 00:39:56.030 this called How Much Language Does It Take to Build 813 00:39:56.090 --> 00:39:58.349 a Boat? And it turns out you've got to have 814 00:39:58.389 --> 00:40:00.929 language to build a boat. And so if they were 815 00:40:00.969 --> 00:40:03.920 building these boats that could carry water and could carry 816 00:40:03.960 --> 00:40:05.920 as many as 20 people because you've got to have 817 00:40:05.960 --> 00:40:08.719 enough to... If you find a colony of Homo erectus 818 00:40:08.800 --> 00:40:11.619 on an island that was always an island, it was 819 00:40:11.679 --> 00:40:15.940 never connected by land, there had to be more than 820 00:40:16.039 --> 00:40:18.800 one person that washed up there on some vegetation. There 821 00:40:18.840 --> 00:40:20.039 has to have been a community. 822 00:40:20.539 --> 00:40:25.260 Yeah, Michael brought up that the– what was it? What 823 00:40:25.300 --> 00:40:28.860 organization did it? Was it NASA? NASA did a study 824 00:40:28.900 --> 00:40:30.320 because they were trying to figure out how many people 825 00:40:30.360 --> 00:40:35.320 you need to colonize another planet. And they came up 826 00:40:35.340 --> 00:40:38.059 with the number 500. You need a minimum of 500 827 00:40:38.059 --> 00:40:42.090 to begin a colony. Right. In order to have genetic diversity, 828 00:40:42.210 --> 00:40:44.090 make sure you're not having sex with your cousin, that 829 00:40:44.969 --> 00:40:45.469 kind of jazz. 830 00:40:45.809 --> 00:40:48.489 Yeah, so you can't. just send a couple over there, 831 00:40:48.570 --> 00:40:50.949 Adam and Eve, and expect this to happen. 832 00:40:51.090 --> 00:40:53.150 Yeah. How did you feel about that story when you 833 00:40:53.190 --> 00:40:53.710 first heard it? 834 00:40:53.909 --> 00:40:54.530 Adam and Eve? Yeah. 835 00:40:54.570 --> 00:40:57.889 When you, when you were converting, you're 17, you're doing acid. 836 00:40:58.190 --> 00:41:00.030 I mean, I was one of these guys who I 837 00:41:00.070 --> 00:41:02.239 believe the Bible cover to cover and even the covers. 838 00:41:02.989 --> 00:41:04.880 Uh, so we'll get to that in a minute. Yeah. So, 839 00:41:04.960 --> 00:41:07.719 but go back to how this is all going down. 840 00:41:08.760 --> 00:41:10.340 With, uh, the, the controversy. 841 00:41:10.480 --> 00:41:10.800 Yes. 842 00:41:10.900 --> 00:41:14.949 So I started getting hate mail and then, um, uh, 843 00:41:15.829 --> 00:41:19.050 The article came out when I first proposed this in 844 00:41:19.090 --> 00:41:23.630 the major journal of anthropology, Current Anthropology. I was in 845 00:41:23.670 --> 00:41:26.289 Germany at the time at the Max Planck Institute for 846 00:41:26.369 --> 00:41:30.590 Evolutionary Anthropology. And right down the hall from me was 847 00:41:30.610 --> 00:41:33.610 Svante Pebo, who just won the Nobel Prize for decoding 848 00:41:33.650 --> 00:41:38.179 the genome of Neanderthals. And there was a reporter, a 849 00:41:38.219 --> 00:41:42.349 German reporter from Der Spiegel, to talk to him. And 850 00:41:42.510 --> 00:41:44.389 she found out about my article, so she walked down 851 00:41:44.409 --> 00:41:46.349 the hall after she interviewed him and interviewed me. And 852 00:41:46.369 --> 00:41:48.269 this came out, and it started to get picked up 853 00:41:48.789 --> 00:41:51.730 in the press in a lot of places. And so 854 00:41:51.789 --> 00:41:55.219 the New Yorker did a big profile. But then the 855 00:41:55.260 --> 00:41:58.719 reaction came, and it wasn't what I expected. I expected 856 00:41:58.739 --> 00:42:01.920 that if you make a proposal that other scientists, if 857 00:42:01.960 --> 00:42:04.199 they're skeptical, which they have every right to be, are 858 00:42:04.219 --> 00:42:07.599 going to propose experiments to test what you're saying. And 859 00:42:07.619 --> 00:42:09.679 they're going to say, well, if they don't have recursion, 860 00:42:09.699 --> 00:42:11.619 you should find this and you should not find that. 861 00:42:11.719 --> 00:42:14.219 You should get this and this and this. And I 862 00:42:14.280 --> 00:42:17.019 tried to anticipate that. But that's the kind of objection 863 00:42:17.059 --> 00:42:20.340 I expected. But instead, they said, I'm a liar. I'm 864 00:42:20.400 --> 00:42:23.000 trying to get publicity. You know, I had a New 865 00:42:23.039 --> 00:42:25.809 York Times reporter. She called me and she said, do 866 00:42:25.849 --> 00:42:28.530 you try to get publicity? I said, did I ask 867 00:42:28.570 --> 00:42:31.170 you to call me? I said, you know, you called me. 868 00:42:31.429 --> 00:42:34.110 I said, you know, it's an interesting story. If people 869 00:42:34.150 --> 00:42:35.670 want to talk to me, I'm here to talk to them. 870 00:42:35.710 --> 00:42:37.969 But I'm not. I said, if I wrote you at 871 00:42:38.010 --> 00:42:40.050 the New York Times and said, I'm an interesting person, 872 00:42:40.110 --> 00:42:42.349 interview me, would that make any difference? 873 00:42:43.030 --> 00:42:45.889 They're not mutually exclusive. You could be trying to get 874 00:42:45.989 --> 00:42:49.510 attention and publicity because you've discovered something that's very important. 875 00:42:49.949 --> 00:42:52.320 The idea that you're just trying to get attention. Are 876 00:42:52.340 --> 00:42:57.159 you trying to get attention? What are you talking about? 877 00:42:58.000 --> 00:43:02.949 It's so weird that the intellectuals, the people who are 878 00:43:03.010 --> 00:43:07.480 literally professional thinkers— would fall into these like common human 879 00:43:07.559 --> 00:43:08.739 traps of ego. 880 00:43:09.119 --> 00:43:17.289 Yeah. Well, it was a mind-blowing, mind-expanding experience for me 881 00:43:17.409 --> 00:43:21.369 to see that intellectuals that I otherwise admired as deep 882 00:43:21.409 --> 00:43:25.739 thinkers about their subject would not think otherwise. And, you know, 883 00:43:25.760 --> 00:43:28.320 I mean, intellectuals... Did they. 884 00:43:28.260 --> 00:43:31.059 Ever engage you on the actual information? 885 00:43:31.900 --> 00:43:36.300 Yeah, I had people from MIT, Department of Brain and 886 00:43:36.320 --> 00:43:41.989 Cognitive Sciences, from Stanford, Department of Psychology, from Columbia University, 887 00:43:42.050 --> 00:43:44.929 came down at separate times to run experiments. And they 888 00:43:44.949 --> 00:43:49.530 were well-designed experiments to test what I said. And they 889 00:43:49.570 --> 00:43:52.449 all came away saying, you know, it looks like Dan's right. 890 00:43:53.449 --> 00:43:58.780 So where's the reaction then? And what do they say 891 00:43:59.099 --> 00:44:01.300 about that? Like the people that are negative about this 892 00:44:01.340 --> 00:44:03.440 and the people that are calling you a racist and 893 00:44:03.460 --> 00:44:06.269 all this saying you're trying to get attention, what are 894 00:44:06.289 --> 00:44:07.690 they saying about these results? 895 00:44:08.610 --> 00:44:12.369 They don't refer to them directly, but if asked, they 896 00:44:12.530 --> 00:44:15.130 often say that these people don't like Chomsky. 897 00:44:15.150 --> 00:44:17.869 So- All of them? 898 00:44:18.090 --> 00:44:18.329 Yeah. 899 00:44:18.610 --> 00:44:21.269 All of those individual scientists that are running these studies 900 00:44:21.309 --> 00:44:23.130 for you don't like Chomsky, and that's why they have 901 00:44:23.150 --> 00:44:24.070 these skewed results? 902 00:44:24.550 --> 00:44:27.250 That is one of the many objections that people raise. 903 00:44:27.269 --> 00:44:28.989 But by and large, they ignore it. 904 00:44:29.710 --> 00:44:32.030 They ignore it? Yeah. So they ignore the studies? 905 00:44:32.409 --> 00:44:35.489 Yeah, I had Chomsky write me some really nasty emails. 906 00:44:35.929 --> 00:44:37.800 You got them? Do you got them still? I have them. 907 00:44:37.980 --> 00:44:42.500 Yeah, I do have them. And I asked him, I said, 908 00:44:42.519 --> 00:44:44.960 why don't we debate at the Linguistic Society of America? 909 00:44:45.650 --> 00:44:47.710 I said, you think I'm an idiot, so here's your chance. 910 00:44:47.730 --> 00:44:50.210 You can show that I'm an idiot. Just we'll debate, 911 00:44:50.510 --> 00:44:52.150 and you'll make a fool of me in five minutes. 912 00:44:52.210 --> 00:44:54.570 Is he saying he thinks you're an idiot when you're 913 00:44:54.590 --> 00:44:56.219 explaining a language that he doesn't know? 914 00:44:56.539 --> 00:44:57.820 I'm an idiot or I'm a liar. 915 00:44:58.659 --> 00:44:59.900 Oh, my God. 916 00:45:00.019 --> 00:45:02.880 He gave an interview to a Brazilian newspaper, and he said, 917 00:45:03.539 --> 00:45:07.329 Dan used to be a fairly good linguist, but he 918 00:45:07.429 --> 00:45:10.610 is a charlatan. He's just a 100% charlatan. And he 919 00:45:10.630 --> 00:45:13.550 was interviewed on a Spanish station, and they said, what 920 00:45:13.570 --> 00:45:15.510 do you think of the contributions of Dan Everett? And 921 00:45:15.550 --> 00:45:18.250 he said, they're nothing, nothing, nothing. 922 00:45:19.090 --> 00:45:19.590 Oh, my God. 923 00:45:19.650 --> 00:45:20.489 And he's really popular. 924 00:45:21.070 --> 00:45:22.510 I used to really admire him. 925 00:45:23.250 --> 00:45:23.429 Yeah. 926 00:45:23.530 --> 00:45:24.849 I used to really admire him. Then I found out 927 00:45:24.869 --> 00:45:28.309 I was close homies with Jeffrey Epstein. That kind of 928 00:45:28.449 --> 00:45:29.969 threw a lot of water on that. Like, what? 929 00:45:30.260 --> 00:45:30.429 Yeah. 930 00:45:30.449 --> 00:45:33.239 Yeah. But then there was the stance during the vaccines 931 00:45:33.260 --> 00:45:35.179 when it was like people that weren't vaccinated should be 932 00:45:35.239 --> 00:45:37.539 round up and put into camps. They had some crazy 933 00:45:37.599 --> 00:45:43.980 positions on the unvaccinated people and very just misinformed, just 934 00:45:44.019 --> 00:45:49.530 completely misinformed about whether it was natural immunity or there 935 00:45:49.570 --> 00:45:52.389 was other medications that were treat that you could use 936 00:45:52.429 --> 00:45:57.260 to treat COVID-19 or even the. the efficacy of the vaccine. 937 00:45:57.280 --> 00:46:00.039 It was crazy. That was just one thing about him. 938 00:46:00.059 --> 00:46:03.260 There's just like his earlier debates, like he's got these 939 00:46:03.400 --> 00:46:06.960 fantastic debates. I think it's him and William F. Buckley. 940 00:46:06.980 --> 00:46:10.260 Have you ever seen those? He's so good in those. 941 00:46:10.679 --> 00:46:13.739 He's so brilliant in those. It was a young Chomsky 942 00:46:14.300 --> 00:46:18.539 and like his intellect and his reason, it was like 943 00:46:18.579 --> 00:46:22.090 a breath of fresh air. It was like Super well informed. 944 00:46:22.369 --> 00:46:25.869 Every time Buckley tried to catch him on something, he 945 00:46:25.949 --> 00:46:27.630 judoed him. It was amazing. 946 00:46:28.010 --> 00:46:30.010 Yeah, well, the first two books of Chomsky I read 947 00:46:30.050 --> 00:46:33.610 when I started doing graduate work in linguistics. 948 00:46:33.909 --> 00:46:36.449 I read the media one. What is it? 949 00:46:36.780 --> 00:46:39.980 Oh, A Manufacturer of Consent. 950 00:46:40.019 --> 00:46:40.840 That's right. Yeah. 951 00:46:41.260 --> 00:46:43.900 But he had the first book of his I read. 952 00:46:44.260 --> 00:46:47.239 It was in linguistics, Aspects of the Theory of Syntax. 953 00:46:47.900 --> 00:46:50.079 And if you're a linguist and you're studying linguistics, that's 954 00:46:50.159 --> 00:46:53.670 just genius. It is just brilliant. And then the next 955 00:46:53.710 --> 00:46:57.630 book that he published the same year was American Power 956 00:46:57.750 --> 00:47:00.909 and the New Mandarins, which was about Vietnam. And that 957 00:47:00.949 --> 00:47:03.909 was also brilliant. And, you know, for one person to 958 00:47:03.949 --> 00:47:06.789 publish two books like that in one year, I mean, 959 00:47:07.070 --> 00:47:10.320 that's just first-order genius. So I admired him. 960 00:47:10.550 --> 00:47:12.420 What goes wrong with a guy like that, though? If 961 00:47:12.500 --> 00:47:15.099 a guy can be that smart, how can he not 962 00:47:15.199 --> 00:47:17.880 be curious about it? How could he not? Like when 963 00:47:17.929 --> 00:47:20.739 you say something that flies in the face of everything 964 00:47:20.840 --> 00:47:24.199 that he's taught, how could he not be curious and 965 00:47:24.260 --> 00:47:27.039 want to talk to you? And if you're right, why 966 00:47:27.059 --> 00:47:29.239 would he not want to like do something with you? 967 00:47:29.579 --> 00:47:31.739 Like if I found someone like you and I was, 968 00:47:31.880 --> 00:47:33.360 I mean, I would have hoped that that would be 969 00:47:33.400 --> 00:47:35.599 the same way as I am now. And I had 970 00:47:35.619 --> 00:47:38.099 an opportunity. I said, we should do a podcast together. 971 00:47:38.139 --> 00:47:40.360 We could explain this. This is crazy. Right. 972 00:47:40.780 --> 00:47:42.579 I invited him to the Pita Ha. He was coming 973 00:47:42.639 --> 00:47:45.079 to Brazil. And I said, hey, why don't you come 974 00:47:45.099 --> 00:47:47.070 with me to the Pita Ha? And I'll ask them 975 00:47:47.130 --> 00:47:48.630 any question you want me to ask them. We can 976 00:47:48.690 --> 00:47:50.650 talk about it there. And he said, I don't do 977 00:47:50.690 --> 00:47:53.570 that kind of thing. I don't do field work. So 978 00:47:53.590 --> 00:47:54.070 he didn't come. 979 00:47:54.349 --> 00:47:57.409 Good move. You don't want typhoid fever and fucking malaria 980 00:47:57.550 --> 00:47:59.570 bit by snakes, stalked by jaguars. 981 00:47:59.590 --> 00:48:00.130 That's all true. 982 00:48:00.170 --> 00:48:04.429 See, he's smart. It's just very disappointing when people are 983 00:48:04.809 --> 00:48:08.510 really brilliant. He's a brilliant guy. And essentially, I mean, 984 00:48:09.050 --> 00:48:13.010 especially rather was really brilliant when he was young. It's just. 985 00:48:13.619 --> 00:48:16.280 So sad when you see someone like that just behaving 986 00:48:16.360 --> 00:48:19.760 with ego because he was the expert. He was the 987 00:48:20.000 --> 00:48:21.840 foremost linguist on planet Earth. 988 00:48:21.980 --> 00:48:23.980 When the New York Times is saying things like you're 989 00:48:24.000 --> 00:48:27.500 the most important intellectual alive and you have people hanging 990 00:48:27.619 --> 00:48:30.440 off every word as though it comes from, you know, 991 00:48:30.739 --> 00:48:35.300 the Oracle of Apollo. Yeah. I assume that it affects 992 00:48:35.320 --> 00:48:36.480 your ego to some degree. 993 00:48:36.659 --> 00:48:39.900 One hundred percent. Most people, especially back then when there's 994 00:48:39.940 --> 00:48:42.309 no Internet to check you. You know, you can get 995 00:48:42.349 --> 00:48:46.489 a really distorted perception of how you stand. Also, everyone's 996 00:48:46.530 --> 00:48:49.760 kissing your ass. You're surrounded by other people that are 997 00:48:50.340 --> 00:48:52.519 trying to climb the same ladder you're on. You're in 998 00:48:52.539 --> 00:48:54.639 a very lofty position of authority and power. 999 00:48:55.559 --> 00:48:58.500 You know, he wrote letters of recommendation for me for 1000 00:48:58.539 --> 00:48:59.820 my first job in the U.S. 1001 00:48:59.960 --> 00:49:00.300 Really? 1002 00:49:00.460 --> 00:49:02.199 And he wrote a letter of recommendation when I came 1003 00:49:02.260 --> 00:49:05.250 up for promotion to tenure at the University of Pittsburgh. 1004 00:49:05.510 --> 00:49:06.969 Why would he do that if you're an idiot? 1005 00:49:07.110 --> 00:49:11.869 But I wasn't yet an idiot. I became an idiot. 1006 00:49:12.170 --> 00:49:14.860 You became an idiot when you disagreed with him. Meanwhile, 1007 00:49:14.920 --> 00:49:18.050 ha ha, you're right. That's what's funny. In the end, 1008 00:49:18.570 --> 00:49:18.989 you're right. 1009 00:49:19.449 --> 00:49:23.789 Yeah, well, he, you know, I've had so many exchanges 1010 00:49:23.969 --> 00:49:27.610 in journals and magazines and things with his followers over 1011 00:49:27.650 --> 00:49:31.860 the years and with him that, you know, I go 1012 00:49:31.900 --> 00:49:34.099 give a talk somewhere and people say, you know, I 1013 00:49:34.119 --> 00:49:36.440 hope you're ready because there's a lot of skeptic, a 1014 00:49:36.480 --> 00:49:39.179 lot of skeptics in this audience. And I say, I 1015 00:49:39.179 --> 00:49:40.880 don't think they're going to ask me any new questions. 1016 00:49:40.900 --> 00:49:42.639 I've done this so much now that they're going to 1017 00:49:42.719 --> 00:49:46.659 ask me. I said, I'll be surprised if anybody asks 1018 00:49:46.719 --> 00:49:49.619 me a question that I haven't heard from Chomsky. 1019 00:49:50.599 --> 00:49:53.800 And when you have these conversations with Chomsky and you 1020 00:49:53.920 --> 00:49:58.449 lay out how the Piraha use their language and how 1021 00:49:58.489 --> 00:50:02.070 it works, what was his reaction to that? You're just incorrect? 1022 00:50:02.650 --> 00:50:04.289 Well, the first time I talked to him about it, 1023 00:50:04.349 --> 00:50:06.849 he had not made this claim about recursion. This was 1024 00:50:06.969 --> 00:50:11.809 in 1984. I was a visitor at MIT Linguistics, and 1025 00:50:11.849 --> 00:50:14.570 my office was next to his. And so I talked 1026 00:50:14.590 --> 00:50:17.710 to him several times that year. And I said, I 1027 00:50:19.869 --> 00:50:23.230 don't think their language has this property. And he said, 1028 00:50:23.610 --> 00:50:25.730 you know, he was drinking coffee and looking at the board. 1029 00:50:25.750 --> 00:50:28.289 He had a blackboard right by his desk. And he said, hmm, 1030 00:50:28.510 --> 00:50:31.139 wonder what the consequences of that are. And then one 1031 00:50:31.159 --> 00:50:33.159 of his Ph.D. students told me, oh, you really got 1032 00:50:33.179 --> 00:50:36.650 gnome thinking. What is this? He found that very intriguing. 1033 00:50:36.969 --> 00:50:39.010 But then when he came out with the proclamation that 1034 00:50:39.030 --> 00:50:41.260 all languages had the habit, then I became an idiot. 1035 00:50:41.619 --> 00:50:49.539 Oh, God, that's so disappointing. Fucking people. Yeah. Fucking people. 1036 00:50:50.360 --> 00:50:55.159 Even the brightest minds. They're just, ego's such a motherfucker. 1037 00:50:55.500 --> 00:50:58.159 Yeah. Well, it's really disappointing because, you know, he was 1038 00:50:58.199 --> 00:51:01.170 like my idol for the first part of my linguistic career. 1039 00:51:01.190 --> 00:51:01.769 Right. 1040 00:51:01.789 --> 00:51:02.550 And I wasn't. 1041 00:51:03.130 --> 00:51:04.949 Did you try to have a conversation with him after 1042 00:51:05.150 --> 00:51:08.170 he denounced you? Did you try to like one-on-one get 1043 00:51:08.190 --> 00:51:08.710 together with him? 1044 00:51:09.730 --> 00:51:11.269 Well, we exchanged emails. 1045 00:51:11.389 --> 00:51:13.900 Yeah, but in his face, like right in front of him. 1046 00:51:13.960 --> 00:51:15.400 Did you try to do that? No. 1047 00:51:16.059 --> 00:51:18.699 I had always told him when I was going through 1048 00:51:19.460 --> 00:51:21.739 Cambridge that I was coming and maybe he and I 1049 00:51:21.780 --> 00:51:24.869 could talk. And he always made time. And we talked. 1050 00:51:25.110 --> 00:51:26.909 I would be living somewhere else and I'd come to 1051 00:51:27.070 --> 00:51:29.550 MIT and he'd talk to me. And my first PhD 1052 00:51:29.590 --> 00:51:32.869 student is a full professor at MIT. And he started 1053 00:51:32.909 --> 00:51:36.960 off in linguistics. He's in brain and cognitive sciences now. 1054 00:51:37.380 --> 00:51:39.460 So I had a good relationship with Chomsky. But then 1055 00:51:39.539 --> 00:51:41.619 suddenly he never had time to meet with me. 1056 00:51:42.019 --> 00:51:45.219 So after his proclamation. Right. Okay. 1057 00:51:45.460 --> 00:51:47.639 He had no time to meet with me. His wife died, 1058 00:51:47.889 --> 00:51:50.230 and I wrote him a letter saying, I'm so sorry 1059 00:51:50.269 --> 00:51:52.369 that Carol died. This is really terrible. I know you 1060 00:51:52.389 --> 00:51:54.769 guys have been together for so long. And he wrote 1061 00:51:54.809 --> 00:51:57.170 back and said, thank you so much. That means a 1062 00:51:57.210 --> 00:51:59.489 great deal to me. And then I saw this article 1063 00:51:59.530 --> 00:52:01.739 in a Sao Paulo paper where he called me a charlatan. 1064 00:52:02.079 --> 00:52:03.820 So I wrote him right back, and I said, did 1065 00:52:03.840 --> 00:52:06.860 you call me a charlatan? And he said, yeah, you 1066 00:52:06.940 --> 00:52:09.480 are a charlatan. I said, you should be ashamed of yourself. 1067 00:52:09.519 --> 00:52:11.440 He said, no, you should be ashamed of yourself for 1068 00:52:11.480 --> 00:52:15.380 saying things you know that can't be right. So that 1069 00:52:15.389 --> 00:52:16.389 was the last exchange we had. 1070 00:52:16.429 --> 00:52:18.539 Silly, silly. No, of course you should have had that 1071 00:52:18.619 --> 00:52:21.559 in front of them. I mean, just, I think people 1072 00:52:22.099 --> 00:52:24.599 say things in emails that I think is a terrible 1073 00:52:24.619 --> 00:52:25.260 way to communicate. 1074 00:52:25.340 --> 00:52:26.579 I agree completely. 1075 00:52:27.599 --> 00:52:30.760 You know, that's especially with insults. It's just, it's such 1076 00:52:30.800 --> 00:52:33.199 a way. And then you're waiting on the other person's 1077 00:52:33.280 --> 00:52:36.920 insult in return. Like, God, stop it. Are you fucking 1078 00:52:36.920 --> 00:52:38.659 12 years old? Yeah. Stop. 1079 00:52:39.099 --> 00:52:43.269 So the author, Tom Wolfe, um, The last book he 1080 00:52:43.349 --> 00:52:46.699 wrote was called Kingdom of Speech. And he talked about 1081 00:52:46.760 --> 00:52:52.699 two controversies, Darwin versus Alfred Russell Wallace and me versus Chomsky. 1082 00:52:52.980 --> 00:52:53.380 Oh, wow. 1083 00:52:53.519 --> 00:52:56.519 And so he has a very he has some bizarre, 1084 00:52:56.880 --> 00:52:59.860 absolutely wrong ideas about where language came from. He's not 1085 00:52:59.900 --> 00:53:04.429 a linguist, but he did cover that controversy extremely well. And, 1086 00:53:04.449 --> 00:53:07.750 you know, Tom used to call me every week when 1087 00:53:07.769 --> 00:53:09.269 he was writing the book. I didn't even know what 1088 00:53:09.289 --> 00:53:11.369 it was about to ask to get the details right. 1089 00:53:12.000 --> 00:53:14.599 But he was just shocked how this happened. 1090 00:53:15.409 --> 00:53:20.449 Yeah. Again, it's disappointing. But even the most brilliant humans 1091 00:53:20.550 --> 00:53:21.190 are just human. 1092 00:53:21.730 --> 00:53:21.989 Right. 1093 00:53:22.030 --> 00:53:24.889 And they're subject to all the flaws and all the 1094 00:53:24.969 --> 00:53:27.409 traps that the human mind could fall into. 1095 00:53:27.909 --> 00:53:32.360 Yeah. I've often said after long experience that intelligence is 1096 00:53:32.460 --> 00:53:33.960 no antidote for stupidity. 1097 00:53:34.559 --> 00:53:34.820 Right. 1098 00:53:34.900 --> 00:53:35.619 You can be both. 1099 00:53:36.079 --> 00:53:40.360 Oh, 100%. Absolutely. Especially when ego is involved. Yeah. So why? 1100 00:53:41.130 --> 00:53:44.610 How many people, how many of the piddaha did you convert? 1101 00:53:45.309 --> 00:53:52.340 Nobody. In decades, they weren't interested. They were so totally, 1102 00:53:52.599 --> 00:53:55.820 because my claims did not meet their standard of evidence. 1103 00:53:56.159 --> 00:53:58.449 They have a high standard of evidence, and I didn't 1104 00:53:58.719 --> 00:53:59.570 meet that standard. 1105 00:54:00.269 --> 00:54:03.210 This episode is brought to you by Blue Chew. Man, 1106 00:54:03.409 --> 00:54:05.949 let's talk about Blue Chew. They're already the number one 1107 00:54:06.010 --> 00:54:08.800 brand for better sex. But what they're doing with Blue 1108 00:54:08.820 --> 00:54:12.599 Chew Gold is completely next level. Gold is a four 1109 00:54:12.739 --> 00:54:18.079 in one formula designed to make. your bedroom noisy again. Obviously, 1110 00:54:18.099 --> 00:54:20.780 it gets you hard, like you're back in your 20s, 1111 00:54:21.079 --> 00:54:26.510 and everything is handled 100% online, but gold boosts your arousal, 1112 00:54:26.869 --> 00:54:30.789 getting you ready for sex physically and mentally. 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But don't they have like mystical creatures and 1123 00:55:10.750 --> 00:55:13.050 stuff that they believe live in the forest? 1124 00:55:13.690 --> 00:55:17.199 They do. And When I first got there as a Christian, 1125 00:55:18.039 --> 00:55:21.420 I called these things spirits because that's all I knew 1126 00:55:21.480 --> 00:55:22.039 how to characterize them. 1127 00:55:22.059 --> 00:55:22.780 How do they describe them? 1128 00:55:23.159 --> 00:55:26.800 They describe them as distinct beings. They don't say they're 1129 00:55:26.840 --> 00:55:30.349 spiritual or anything like that. But you see something. Like 1130 00:55:30.369 --> 00:55:33.989 you see maybe there's another Indian hunting, you know, from 1131 00:55:34.030 --> 00:55:36.289 a different tribe hunting in your jungle because there are 1132 00:55:36.369 --> 00:55:38.429 some that are close enough to be hunting in the 1133 00:55:38.469 --> 00:55:41.429 same area. You see them, but you don't see them well. 1134 00:55:41.570 --> 00:55:45.000 They go behind a tree or something. So you say, oh, 1135 00:55:45.039 --> 00:55:47.619 that's one of these things. I just saw one of 1136 00:55:47.659 --> 00:55:52.380 these things. They don't put it to the test necessarily, 1137 00:55:52.420 --> 00:55:52.920 but they did see it. 1138 00:55:52.920 --> 00:55:54.099 When they say these things. 1139 00:55:54.440 --> 00:55:58.199 So they have three major types of entities besides humans. 1140 00:55:59.219 --> 00:56:01.679 And they have different types of humans. I'm one type 1141 00:56:01.760 --> 00:56:05.820 and they're another type. And so they have things. 1142 00:56:05.840 --> 00:56:07.940 How do they make the distinction? Is it the appearance? 1143 00:56:08.519 --> 00:56:12.460 For humans, yes, it's appearance. Well, actually, for the other entities, 1144 00:56:12.519 --> 00:56:16.800 it's appearance too. So for me. I'm white. And white 1145 00:56:17.340 --> 00:56:20.179 means you don't have blood. So they asked me, they said, 1146 00:56:20.739 --> 00:56:24.000 so do you have blood? And they asked me one 1147 00:56:24.019 --> 00:56:25.619 time after I'd been there for years, they said, do 1148 00:56:25.659 --> 00:56:29.639 Americans die? And I said, yeah, we die. But you're 1149 00:56:29.659 --> 00:56:32.900 really old and you haven't died yet, you know? And 1150 00:56:32.920 --> 00:56:33.539 so I cut myself once. 1151 00:56:33.559 --> 00:56:34.480 How old were you at the time? 1152 00:56:35.340 --> 00:56:37.150 Probably 45. 1153 00:56:37.150 --> 00:56:38.250 And they thought you were a goner. 1154 00:56:38.670 --> 00:56:41.349 Yeah, because we age differently. I already had gray hair, 1155 00:56:41.369 --> 00:56:42.650 you know, not all over. 1156 00:56:42.730 --> 00:56:44.670 Right. They look a lot different when they're 45. 1157 00:56:44.670 --> 00:56:47.360 Yeah, yeah. They're all still 100% black hair. 1158 00:56:47.449 --> 00:56:50.000 Oh, they thought you were a goner with the white hair. 1159 00:56:50.159 --> 00:56:54.880 So they have an expression, almost about to fall to 1160 00:56:54.920 --> 00:56:57.480 the ground. And that's the way they described me. 1161 00:56:57.719 --> 00:56:58.039 Wow. 1162 00:56:59.179 --> 00:57:02.219 So Americans are one way, Brazilians are another way. But 1163 00:57:02.260 --> 00:57:03.760 then there are these things, some of them are called 1164 00:57:03.840 --> 00:57:07.679 fast mouths. And so they They talk in a high-pitched voice. 1165 00:57:08.480 --> 00:57:12.000 And at night, you hear somebody, you know, a creature 1166 00:57:12.059 --> 00:57:15.139 talking in a high falsetto voice into the village. And 1167 00:57:15.199 --> 00:57:16.760 I say, what's that? And they said, oh, that's a 1168 00:57:16.780 --> 00:57:20.690 fast mouth. I said, but I'm seeing it, and it 1169 00:57:20.710 --> 00:57:22.289 looks like a pita ha. Oh, yeah, they look just 1170 00:57:22.329 --> 00:57:25.730 like us, but they're not. They're not us. And so 1171 00:57:26.409 --> 00:57:29.110 this is where we come to the border of fact 1172 00:57:29.179 --> 00:57:33.420 and fiction. And we try to draw a fairly rigid 1173 00:57:33.460 --> 00:57:37.019 line between fact and fiction. in our society and in 1174 00:57:37.059 --> 00:57:42.460 most European societies. But to them, they don't have to 1175 00:57:44.300 --> 00:57:48.079 have the full range of experience with this to describe it. 1176 00:57:48.619 --> 00:57:51.119 And so a fast mouth is just a fast mouth. 1177 00:57:51.260 --> 00:57:53.409 And you know who they are because they talk in 1178 00:57:53.429 --> 00:57:57.150 a high falsetto voice and they go naked. Whereas pitahas 1179 00:57:57.809 --> 00:57:59.849 often go naked, but if they have clothes, they'll wear them. 1180 00:57:59.969 --> 00:58:03.170 And the fast mouths will never wear clothes. And the 1181 00:58:03.210 --> 00:58:07.090 fast mouths are also sexually promiscuous. So I had a 1182 00:58:07.130 --> 00:58:10.469 reporter with me in the jungle from GEO magazine in Germany. 1183 00:58:11.090 --> 00:58:13.059 And he said, can I see one of these fast mouths? 1184 00:58:13.659 --> 00:58:16.159 And I told one guy, I said, he wants to 1185 00:58:16.199 --> 00:58:18.079 see a fast mouth. And he said, well, I'll go 1186 00:58:18.099 --> 00:58:20.460 get one. And he walks off into the jungle. And 1187 00:58:20.480 --> 00:58:24.739 then the same guy comes back in naked, talking in 1188 00:58:24.780 --> 00:58:29.179 this falsetto voice, and starts trying to hump the reporter. Yeah. 1189 00:58:31.599 --> 00:58:33.980 And the reporter says, oh, I'm feeling very uncomfortable. 1190 00:58:34.039 --> 00:58:34.360 I don't know. 1191 00:58:34.400 --> 00:58:36.119 I said, you asked for it. I mean, you know, 1192 00:58:36.139 --> 00:58:38.079 I mean, that's the way they are. And so I 1193 00:58:38.119 --> 00:58:39.840 finally told the guy, I said, you know, he doesn't 1194 00:58:40.000 --> 00:58:41.400 he doesn't want this. He doesn't want to see the 1195 00:58:41.440 --> 00:58:43.530 fast mouth anymore. So he talks to me in a 1196 00:58:43.550 --> 00:58:45.369 high falsetto and he walks off and he comes back 1197 00:58:45.429 --> 00:58:49.889 on with his clothes on. And I said, did you 1198 00:58:49.929 --> 00:58:51.730 see the fast mouth? He said, was there a fast 1199 00:58:51.769 --> 00:58:54.409 mouth here? I was gone, you know, but it's the 1200 00:58:54.429 --> 00:58:54.869 same guy. 1201 00:58:56.460 --> 00:59:00.960 What did you take of that? Did you think that 1202 00:59:01.019 --> 00:59:03.269 they were playing a prank on you? Did you think 1203 00:59:03.309 --> 00:59:06.610 this is like some sort of a psychotic state that 1204 00:59:06.630 --> 00:59:07.530 they fall into? 1205 00:59:07.550 --> 00:59:13.750 It is a limit. area between being, say, theater and 1206 00:59:13.789 --> 00:59:17.730 being reality. And I don't know if they feel possessed. 1207 00:59:17.889 --> 00:59:20.719 I don't think they have a concept of possession. I've 1208 00:59:20.949 --> 00:59:23.389 asked them and I've investigated this and I've never seen that. 1209 00:59:23.940 --> 00:59:28.380 But they definitely believe that. They're gone and this other 1210 00:59:28.440 --> 00:59:29.900 creature is there in their place. 1211 00:59:31.590 --> 00:59:34.710 Do they have memory of when they become a fast mouth? 1212 00:59:34.789 --> 00:59:36.809 They deny it. I've tried to get them to talk 1213 00:59:36.869 --> 00:59:38.670 about it. I don't know. I wasn't here. 1214 00:59:38.969 --> 00:59:40.079 Everyone denies it? 1215 00:59:40.210 --> 00:59:41.170 Everybody denies it. 1216 00:59:41.610 --> 00:59:44.250 Wow. Do you think that being a fast mouth is 1217 00:59:44.469 --> 00:59:48.280 like almost like a license to go and do stuff 1218 00:59:48.300 --> 00:59:50.380 you're not supposed to do? Go fuck everybody? 1219 00:59:50.400 --> 00:59:50.579 Yeah. 1220 00:59:50.619 --> 00:59:52.260 Yeah. You think that's what it is? 1221 00:59:52.280 --> 00:59:56.340 Yeah, because they also change names very frequently. So if 1222 00:59:56.380 --> 00:59:58.260 I go back there now, all my old friends will 1223 00:59:58.280 --> 01:00:01.179 have different names. And anything done under the old name is, 1224 01:00:01.719 --> 01:00:04.239 you know, you'll say, you remember when you did this? Well, 1225 01:00:04.260 --> 01:00:07.159 I didn't do that. That was the guy with this name. 1226 01:00:08.059 --> 01:00:11.460 So they don't even claim. So the concept of constancy 1227 01:00:11.500 --> 01:00:14.929 of identity throughout time, they deny this. 1228 01:00:15.710 --> 01:00:18.090 So when do they choose to make a new name 1229 01:00:18.190 --> 01:00:20.409 or do they get a new name assigned to them? 1230 01:00:20.750 --> 01:00:24.940 They can. Children often get new names for different phases 1231 01:00:24.980 --> 01:00:28.500 of life. But adults, if you're out in the jungle 1232 01:00:28.559 --> 01:00:30.750 and you think you saw something and you can't explain it, 1233 01:00:30.760 --> 01:00:31.619 you might take a new name. 1234 01:00:35.960 --> 01:00:37.519 Not a bad idea, right? 1235 01:00:37.880 --> 01:00:39.610 This is a way of coping with things. 1236 01:00:39.699 --> 01:00:42.230 Yeah. I mean, it kind of makes sense. Something really 1237 01:00:42.269 --> 01:00:45.349 traumatic happens to you. And you want to reclaim your life, 1238 01:00:45.630 --> 01:00:47.949 you change your name, start over from scratch. Right. 1239 01:00:48.550 --> 01:00:50.650 And some of us do it in American culture, but 1240 01:00:50.710 --> 01:00:53.610 it's a lot harder legal process to change your name. 1241 01:00:53.789 --> 01:00:55.679 How often do they get killed by jaguars? 1242 01:00:56.980 --> 01:01:00.119 Nobody's ever been killed in my almost 50 years coming 1243 01:01:00.139 --> 01:01:02.360 and going, but many of them have been attacked. 1244 01:01:02.820 --> 01:01:03.460 Really? Yeah. 1245 01:01:03.519 --> 01:01:08.079 Like one guy was coming back from getting Brazil nuts, 1246 01:01:08.139 --> 01:01:10.860 and he had a big basket. And so his head's 1247 01:01:11.360 --> 01:01:13.619 down a bit with the tump line, and the basket 1248 01:01:13.659 --> 01:01:18.989 probably weighs, you know, 60 pounds. And suddenly a jaguar 1249 01:01:19.050 --> 01:01:21.110 jumps out of the tree right on his back, but 1250 01:01:21.150 --> 01:01:23.510 it got the basket and not him, and it pulled 1251 01:01:23.550 --> 01:01:26.829 the basket off his head. And he shot it with 1252 01:01:26.869 --> 01:01:27.190 an arrow. 1253 01:01:28.190 --> 01:01:28.769 Oh, my God. 1254 01:01:28.849 --> 01:01:31.090 But they tell me that when you shoot a jaguar 1255 01:01:31.130 --> 01:01:33.909 with an arrow, the jaguar forgets about you and keeps 1256 01:01:33.929 --> 01:01:36.849 trying to get the arrow out. And by that time, 1257 01:01:36.889 --> 01:01:40.869 you've got three or four more arrows in it. So 1258 01:01:40.889 --> 01:01:43.710 these guys are deadly accurate with bows and arrows. 1259 01:01:43.809 --> 01:01:47.980 So if they did that and, like, maybe they got attacked, 1260 01:01:48.119 --> 01:01:49.440 would they change their name after that? 1261 01:01:49.760 --> 01:01:52.440 They could. And so I don't completely have it down 1262 01:01:52.480 --> 01:01:53.139 to a formula. 1263 01:01:53.579 --> 01:01:57.000 Oh, okay. So it's not like when they're uncomfortable. Sometimes 1264 01:01:57.019 --> 01:01:59.079 it's just like, it's time. It's time that Bob becomes Mike. 1265 01:01:59.099 --> 01:02:02.500 It's a subjective reaction to objective experience that causes them 1266 01:02:02.559 --> 01:02:03.079 to do this. 1267 01:02:03.559 --> 01:02:05.409 And do they announce it to the village? 1268 01:02:06.809 --> 01:02:09.949 They announce it to their spouse or their kids, and 1269 01:02:09.969 --> 01:02:12.789 then the word spreads. And so I'll come back in. 1270 01:02:12.809 --> 01:02:14.769 I came back in after six months, and my buddy, 1271 01:02:14.789 --> 01:02:20.519 my main language teacher, his name was, when I left, 1272 01:02:20.679 --> 01:02:24.960 it was Kohoi Behe, which means blood eater. And when 1273 01:02:24.980 --> 01:02:27.000 I got back, I said, you know, and the nickname 1274 01:02:27.059 --> 01:02:28.940 is Ko. Hey, Ko. You know, I asked him, how 1275 01:02:29.000 --> 01:02:31.159 are you doing? And nobody responds. He didn't turn and 1276 01:02:31.179 --> 01:02:32.940 look at me or anything. And I called him again 1277 01:02:32.980 --> 01:02:35.679 and again. He said, you talking to me? I said, yeah. 1278 01:02:35.699 --> 01:02:37.980 He said, that's not my name. And so I had 1279 01:02:38.019 --> 01:02:41.719 to learn his new name was Kapalbi, you know, which... 1280 01:02:42.460 --> 01:02:44.760 And he was serious about it. He wouldn't respond anymore 1281 01:02:44.800 --> 01:02:46.610 to that old name. Wow. 1282 01:02:47.670 --> 01:02:50.369 How odd. The first time that happened, were you like, oh, 1283 01:02:50.449 --> 01:02:52.010 my God, these people are fucking crazy? 1284 01:02:52.349 --> 01:02:54.769 No, I thought, I'm pretty stupid. I can't even remember 1285 01:02:54.809 --> 01:02:57.250 their names. Wow. That was my first reaction. 1286 01:02:57.309 --> 01:03:01.429 How quickly did this happen from you first, like, encountering 1287 01:03:01.449 --> 01:03:01.869 these people? 1288 01:03:02.469 --> 01:03:06.030 Well, I... I would be gone for three or four 1289 01:03:06.070 --> 01:03:08.070 months at a time and then come back because I 1290 01:03:08.849 --> 01:03:10.389 was doing linguistics. 1291 01:03:10.429 --> 01:03:13.150 So you never experienced it as it was happening? 1292 01:03:14.269 --> 01:03:17.650 One time. You really need to spend at least a 1293 01:03:17.710 --> 01:03:20.050 full year there so you can see all the seasons 1294 01:03:20.110 --> 01:03:22.610 and all the changes. Then I saw some of the stuff, 1295 01:03:22.630 --> 01:03:24.590 but many of the name changes happened when I was 1296 01:03:24.690 --> 01:03:26.530 out of the village. Some of them happened when I 1297 01:03:26.570 --> 01:03:29.170 was in the village, but my best friends, their name 1298 01:03:29.230 --> 01:03:31.340 changes seemed to happen when I was out of the village. 1299 01:03:32.119 --> 01:03:35.260 And they were very serious about enforcing those new name changes. 1300 01:03:38.659 --> 01:03:41.699 So if you ask them to tell stories about their childhood, 1301 01:03:41.719 --> 01:03:45.280 you get these very vague stories. And they'll say, you know, 1302 01:03:45.300 --> 01:03:48.840 but I'm talking about this person, you know. Or they'll 1303 01:03:48.860 --> 01:03:51.579 tell me, you know, they changed my name twice, you know. 1304 01:03:52.139 --> 01:03:54.489 And so they name me and so a guy comes 1305 01:03:54.550 --> 01:03:57.170 up to me and he says, that name is rotten, 1306 01:03:57.429 --> 01:04:00.110 which is the same word you use for spoiled food. 1307 01:04:00.590 --> 01:04:03.630 You know, your name is spoiled. So I'm going to 1308 01:04:03.670 --> 01:04:05.889 give you this name. And then I got it. Then 1309 01:04:06.130 --> 01:04:08.260 one time I was in there and was staying with 1310 01:04:08.300 --> 01:04:11.340 this guy. He's just wearing a loincloth and the other 1311 01:04:11.380 --> 01:04:16.420 Peter Hoff fearing because he's this fierce guy. And he says, 1312 01:04:16.440 --> 01:04:18.679 you're really old. You know, they always tell me that. 1313 01:04:19.019 --> 01:04:21.579 He said, you're really old. And I said, I'm not 1314 01:04:21.619 --> 01:04:23.559 that old. He said, yeah, you are. My dad's dead. 1315 01:04:23.619 --> 01:04:25.559 And you're about the same age as he was. You know, 1316 01:04:25.619 --> 01:04:27.880 they don't know what the age is. He said, I'm 1317 01:04:27.900 --> 01:04:30.710 going to give you my dad's name. And Bao Aisi, 1318 01:04:30.750 --> 01:04:32.630 which is just the name of his dad. So that's 1319 01:04:32.650 --> 01:04:34.719 been my name ever since. I've had that name now 1320 01:04:34.760 --> 01:04:35.860 for about 15 years. 1321 01:04:36.079 --> 01:04:39.179 And when you go back, what happens if they want 1322 01:04:39.199 --> 01:04:40.519 to switch it up again? You have to learn a 1323 01:04:40.539 --> 01:04:43.099 new name? Yeah, yeah. And that could easily happen, right? 1324 01:04:43.300 --> 01:04:45.099 Yeah, it could easily happen. It just depends on which 1325 01:04:45.139 --> 01:04:46.989 village you go to and which person you're talking to. 1326 01:04:47.650 --> 01:04:49.610 What is the population of these people? 1327 01:04:50.230 --> 01:04:51.730 When I first got there, it was under 200. And 1328 01:04:51.750 --> 01:04:57.320 now it's around 700 to 800. They've grown because they've 1329 01:04:57.360 --> 01:05:00.219 had more medical assistance. I gave them medical assistance, my 1330 01:05:00.260 --> 01:05:02.500 wife and I, for 20 years. 1331 01:05:03.380 --> 01:05:07.820 And so your goal was to convert them to Christianity. Right. 1332 01:05:08.059 --> 01:05:12.159 And when it's– so no one's buying it. So what 1333 01:05:12.179 --> 01:05:15.320 are you doing? What do your days consist of while 1334 01:05:15.360 --> 01:05:15.739 you're there? 1335 01:05:15.820 --> 01:05:21.480 Well, my days consist of linguistic analysis and translation effort. 1336 01:05:22.280 --> 01:05:24.679 So I'll work with somebody. And so I worked with 1337 01:05:24.719 --> 01:05:27.889 this guy, for example– And we went through the story 1338 01:05:27.909 --> 01:05:30.630 of Jesus. I had translated a large part of the 1339 01:05:30.670 --> 01:05:33.710 Gospel of Luke. And I tell him this story. And 1340 01:05:33.730 --> 01:05:37.389 then I showed film strips, you know, made by, you know, 1341 01:05:37.429 --> 01:05:40.170 where Jesus looks like an American and has a beard 1342 01:05:40.230 --> 01:05:43.449 and all this stuff. And I explained it. They don't 1343 01:05:43.489 --> 01:05:46.730 make a difference between drawings and photographs. So they figured 1344 01:05:46.789 --> 01:05:50.449 it must be Jesus. He saw Jesus. So that night 1345 01:05:50.639 --> 01:05:52.360 after I told him all this and we'd seen the 1346 01:05:52.400 --> 01:05:56.039 film strips, His village was across the river. I lived 1347 01:05:56.079 --> 01:05:58.199 in one village, and across the river was another village, 1348 01:05:58.239 --> 01:06:00.809 and they went across the river. And all night long, 1349 01:06:00.869 --> 01:06:03.869 I heard screaming and yelling and people running around and 1350 01:06:03.929 --> 01:06:07.550 women laughing and then women screaming. And the next morning, 1351 01:06:07.590 --> 01:06:09.110 he comes back to work with me, and I said, 1352 01:06:09.190 --> 01:06:11.550 so what was going on all night? He said, oh, 1353 01:06:11.610 --> 01:06:15.800 Jesus came to our village. I said, what? He said, yeah, 1354 01:06:15.840 --> 01:06:17.159 he came to our village, you know, and he had 1355 01:06:17.199 --> 01:06:20.780 a penis three feet long. They don't have words for feet, 1356 01:06:20.820 --> 01:06:23.309 so I'm just going by his hand thing. He said, 1357 01:06:23.349 --> 01:06:24.849 and he was trying to stick it in all the women. 1358 01:06:25.409 --> 01:06:27.849 And so, you know, the women don't want to know 1359 01:06:27.889 --> 01:06:28.650 anymore about Jesus. 1360 01:06:29.210 --> 01:06:29.469 What? 1361 01:06:30.829 --> 01:06:34.889 This is their way of rejecting it. So I never 1362 01:06:34.929 --> 01:06:37.750 expected that. In all my Bible training and things. 1363 01:06:38.309 --> 01:06:41.929 Did they say, so they wouldn't admit if one of 1364 01:06:41.989 --> 01:06:44.980 them became like they become a fast talker if they 1365 01:06:45.000 --> 01:06:48.000 just became Jesus. Right. But that could have been what happened. 1366 01:06:48.159 --> 01:06:49.199 I'm sure that's what happened. 1367 01:06:49.760 --> 01:06:51.719 So one guy just decided I'm Jesus. Yeah. 1368 01:06:52.769 --> 01:06:54.590 But everybody took him, you're Jesus. 1369 01:06:54.869 --> 01:06:55.090 Yeah. 1370 01:06:55.210 --> 01:06:56.630 And this is what Jesus is trying to do. 1371 01:06:57.369 --> 01:06:58.309 Oh, boy. 1372 01:06:58.489 --> 01:07:01.300 But they would ask questions like, you know, hey, Dan, 1373 01:07:02.159 --> 01:07:04.199 what does Jesus look like? Is he brown like us 1374 01:07:04.320 --> 01:07:05.940 or is he white like you? And I say, well, 1375 01:07:05.960 --> 01:07:07.960 you know, some people say he was brown like you 1376 01:07:08.019 --> 01:07:09.840 and some people say he was white like me. And 1377 01:07:09.860 --> 01:07:11.739 they said, yeah, yeah, but you've seen him. What did 1378 01:07:11.760 --> 01:07:14.909 he look like? And I said, well, I never saw him. Well, 1379 01:07:14.929 --> 01:07:17.429 your dad saw him. No, my dad never saw him. 1380 01:07:17.469 --> 01:07:19.170 He lived a long time ago. I don't know anyone 1381 01:07:19.190 --> 01:07:21.389 who's ever seen Jesus. And they said, you don't know 1382 01:07:21.449 --> 01:07:23.610 anyone who's ever seen him and you're just talking about 1383 01:07:23.630 --> 01:07:26.090 him the whole time, telling us about him? They said, 1384 01:07:26.130 --> 01:07:30.469 we don't want to hear about this anymore. And that 1385 01:07:30.510 --> 01:07:30.869 was like. 1386 01:07:31.090 --> 01:07:33.150 But you at the time were a believer. You're a 1387 01:07:33.250 --> 01:07:37.590 true believer. Yeah. So when did that start to slip away? 1388 01:07:38.210 --> 01:07:42.110 It started to slip away from two sides. One, I 1389 01:07:42.150 --> 01:07:45.030 was spending a lot of my time in the intellectual 1390 01:07:45.070 --> 01:07:49.230 world and trying to do serious linguistic science. And it 1391 01:07:49.289 --> 01:07:53.139 slipped away mainly, however... by constant interaction with the Pirahã. 1392 01:07:53.179 --> 01:07:55.340 Because as I've gotten to know these people over the years, 1393 01:07:56.679 --> 01:08:00.440 these are really smart people. They're very intelligent people. They 1394 01:08:00.719 --> 01:08:03.280 had me figured out before I had them figured out. 1395 01:08:03.480 --> 01:08:05.519 And they can predict my behavior better than I can 1396 01:08:05.539 --> 01:08:09.900 predict theirs, even today. And so they would come to 1397 01:08:09.940 --> 01:08:11.559 me and they would say this, you know, they say, Dan, 1398 01:08:11.599 --> 01:08:15.280 you keep telling us about Jesus, but it seems that 1399 01:08:15.320 --> 01:08:17.460 only Americans believe in Jesus because we don't know any 1400 01:08:17.500 --> 01:08:20.439 Brazilians that we've ever met that believe in Jesus. And 1401 01:08:20.859 --> 01:08:23.279 So this seems like an American thing, but we're not Americans. 1402 01:08:23.859 --> 01:08:25.560 And then they would say, you know, where did you 1403 01:08:25.600 --> 01:08:28.409 get your evidence? And I began to think, you know, 1404 01:08:28.430 --> 01:08:30.890 these are good questions. I can't just throw these questions off. 1405 01:08:30.930 --> 01:08:33.590 What is my evidence? You know, I went to Bible school. 1406 01:08:33.649 --> 01:08:37.810 I've been surrounded by Christians. I've surrounded myself by people 1407 01:08:37.829 --> 01:08:40.579 who believe. And this is what happens in linguistic theory 1408 01:08:40.640 --> 01:08:43.579 or other scientific theories. You surround yourself with a community 1409 01:08:44.119 --> 01:08:47.020 that believes the same thing, and pretty soon it's hard 1410 01:08:47.039 --> 01:08:51.229 for you to consider alternatives. Mm-hmm. And so I started 1411 01:08:51.270 --> 01:08:55.029 considering the alternative and I realized, you know, I was 1412 01:08:55.100 --> 01:08:59.100 an atheist back when I, you know, met my first 1413 01:08:59.159 --> 01:09:00.939 wife in front of a Jimi Hendrix concert. I was 1414 01:09:00.979 --> 01:09:02.979 an atheist. And then I became a Christian. And then 1415 01:09:03.020 --> 01:09:05.880 I thought, you know, maybe I was right to begin with. 1416 01:09:07.479 --> 01:09:11.029 And so eventually I told them, I said, you know, 1417 01:09:11.050 --> 01:09:13.409 I don't believe this stuff anymore either. And they started laughing. 1418 01:09:13.449 --> 01:09:15.329 All the guys started laughing. I said, why are you? 1419 01:09:15.829 --> 01:09:17.350 They said, oh, now you're like us, you know. 1420 01:09:17.970 --> 01:09:18.130 But. 1421 01:09:19.170 --> 01:09:21.069 But then they told me one time, they said, you know, 1422 01:09:21.649 --> 01:09:24.909 from what we understand, Christians don't drink and they don't 1423 01:09:25.489 --> 01:09:27.689 sleep with other women. And, you know, we like to 1424 01:09:27.729 --> 01:09:31.539 do those things. So we're not interested. 1425 01:09:33.199 --> 01:09:36.539 What was convincing for you, though? If you're a true believer, 1426 01:09:36.920 --> 01:09:39.420 you think your path is the right way when you're 1427 01:09:39.439 --> 01:09:42.439 hanging out with these people. What is making you question it? 1428 01:09:42.930 --> 01:09:45.949 Well, several things. One of the most important things was 1429 01:09:45.989 --> 01:09:48.909 that having spent so many years as a Christian, and 1430 01:09:48.970 --> 01:09:51.850 knowing Christians both in the U.S. and missionaries, who are 1431 01:09:51.890 --> 01:09:56.050 the cream of the crop, supposedly, I didn't know anyone 1432 01:09:56.069 --> 01:09:58.899 in the Christian faith who was as well-adjusted, who could 1433 01:09:58.979 --> 01:10:01.239 cope with life as well, who was as satisfied and 1434 01:10:01.279 --> 01:10:04.420 content with their lives as the Pidahan. They were like 1435 01:10:04.479 --> 01:10:08.359 the ultimate Zen masters and the ultimate, you know, if 1436 01:10:08.380 --> 01:10:10.520 you thought, what is Jesus supposed to do for your life? 1437 01:10:11.050 --> 01:10:13.850 They already had it. And I didn't know many Christians 1438 01:10:13.869 --> 01:10:16.600 who did. So first it was quality of the spiritual life. 1439 01:10:16.800 --> 01:10:18.560 They seem to me to have the highest quality of 1440 01:10:18.600 --> 01:10:21.939 spiritual life. So one MIT guy who came down, an 1441 01:10:22.079 --> 01:10:25.640 MIT PhD student, said, these look like the happiest people 1442 01:10:25.680 --> 01:10:28.329 in the world. And I said, well, what kind of 1443 01:10:28.369 --> 01:10:31.989 statement is that? How would you measure who's happiest? He said, well, 1444 01:10:32.029 --> 01:10:34.989 I would spend time, I would see how long they 1445 01:10:35.069 --> 01:10:37.489 smile and laugh every day and compare it to others 1446 01:10:37.550 --> 01:10:40.869 and how much time they spend laughing and smiling. And 1447 01:10:40.909 --> 01:10:43.399 I'll guarantee you, he said, I've never seen a peda 1448 01:10:43.439 --> 01:10:48.430 here who's not smiling or laughing at frequently. So it 1449 01:10:48.449 --> 01:10:51.409 was that quality of character, and it was also just 1450 01:10:51.449 --> 01:10:54.289 the fact that I began to realize that the scientific 1451 01:10:54.350 --> 01:10:57.010 principles that I've been learning and that I'm applying in 1452 01:10:57.050 --> 01:11:02.050 linguistics almost have to be suspended to apply them to 1453 01:11:02.069 --> 01:11:06.989 the faith. Because, you know, for example, I've heard a 1454 01:11:07.010 --> 01:11:12.649 lot of stories of people being healed. But this is 1455 01:11:12.829 --> 01:11:16.409 anecdotal evidence. And I'm not going to deny anybody's experience. 1456 01:11:16.449 --> 01:11:22.069 If you tell me you had inoperable cancer, but now 1457 01:11:22.449 --> 01:11:25.010 you don't, something happened, and I can't tell you what 1458 01:11:25.029 --> 01:11:28.869 it was. But at the same time, there's no statistical 1459 01:11:28.930 --> 01:11:32.850 relevance to that. It's also the case that even when 1460 01:11:32.930 --> 01:11:37.029 I was in Bible school, one of my teachers said, 1461 01:11:37.439 --> 01:11:41.079 I wonder why healers, faith healers, never start with amputees, 1462 01:11:41.819 --> 01:11:44.460 you know? They always start with diseases you can't see, 1463 01:11:44.720 --> 01:11:49.140 like cancer, and explain how it went away. But they 1464 01:11:49.180 --> 01:11:52.220 said also in the Bible, and the Bible itself says this, 1465 01:11:53.279 --> 01:11:55.619 Jesus not only healed people, he raised them from the dead. 1466 01:11:56.180 --> 01:11:58.189 So if somebody claims to be a healer in the 1467 01:11:58.239 --> 01:12:01.550 same vein as Jesus, I'd like to see them start 1468 01:12:01.560 --> 01:12:04.930 at cemeteries and start raising people from the dead. We're 1469 01:12:04.949 --> 01:12:08.189 not seeing that, and we don't see amputees healed. We 1470 01:12:08.250 --> 01:12:11.090 see things that are sort of subjective experiences. So that 1471 01:12:11.899 --> 01:12:13.819 and I'm not claiming that nobody has a right to 1472 01:12:13.859 --> 01:12:15.899 believe what they believe or that I'm right about all 1473 01:12:15.939 --> 01:12:17.729 these things, but these are the reason, this is part 1474 01:12:17.739 --> 01:12:20.489 of the reasoning process that went through my mind. And 1475 01:12:20.529 --> 01:12:25.409 I thought, yeah, I just can't, I just can't do 1476 01:12:25.449 --> 01:12:28.029 this anymore. I cannot tell these people to believe something 1477 01:12:29.289 --> 01:12:32.329 that they have reasonable objections against and I don't have 1478 01:12:32.390 --> 01:12:36.189 reasonable answers for. So to me, they made more sense 1479 01:12:36.250 --> 01:12:36.729 than I did. 1480 01:12:37.760 --> 01:12:42.159 Well, there's, so many of these ancient religions that have 1481 01:12:42.340 --> 01:12:44.960 very similar stories to the Jesus story. 1482 01:12:45.020 --> 01:12:46.659 Yes, that's true. 1483 01:12:46.680 --> 01:12:51.310 It seems like a very old story. And I'm of 1484 01:12:51.369 --> 01:12:54.989 the opinion that what you're getting with all of these 1485 01:12:55.069 --> 01:13:01.720 religious texts is there were some events and there's some 1486 01:13:01.800 --> 01:13:05.100 sort of a documentation of this events, but it's very 1487 01:13:05.579 --> 01:13:10.250 hard to figure out what exactly happened. Like for instance, 1488 01:13:11.130 --> 01:13:15.520 Paul never met Jesus. When most people find that out, 1489 01:13:15.560 --> 01:13:18.119 they go, wait, what? So all that stuff that Jesus said, 1490 01:13:18.500 --> 01:13:22.229 Paul's writing down, And, well, how does Paul know this? 1491 01:13:22.670 --> 01:13:24.970 And then you go, oh, well, Paul met Jesus in 1492 01:13:25.010 --> 01:13:27.729 a dream. Like, hold the fuck on. 1493 01:13:28.989 --> 01:13:31.920 See, ironically, the Pentecost might actually take that as evidence. 1494 01:13:31.979 --> 01:13:34.840 Right. But Jesus came back to their camp as a 1495 01:13:34.880 --> 01:13:35.279 fast walker. 1496 01:13:35.300 --> 01:13:39.239 But we said, you know, I learned in Bible school 1497 01:13:39.279 --> 01:13:42.270 that all the apostles had to have met Jesus. And 1498 01:13:42.329 --> 01:13:44.289 Paul was an apostle. Therefore, he had to meet Jesus. 1499 01:13:44.350 --> 01:13:46.050 And so I said, well, when did he meet Jesus? 1500 01:13:46.069 --> 01:13:48.350 And they said, on the road to Damascus. He had 1501 01:13:48.369 --> 01:13:50.729 the revelation of Jesus on the road to Damascus, so 1502 01:13:50.760 --> 01:13:51.140 he met him. 1503 01:13:52.840 --> 01:13:53.260 It's tricky. 1504 01:13:53.560 --> 01:13:54.020 It's tricky. 1505 01:13:54.199 --> 01:13:59.560 It's tricky. It's also, again, when you get especially to 1506 01:13:59.579 --> 01:14:05.220 the Old Testament, like what were they documenting? What are 1507 01:14:05.239 --> 01:14:11.489 these events? What happened there? There's some stories that you say, 1508 01:14:11.510 --> 01:14:14.170 like the flood story, for example. Boy, there's a lot 1509 01:14:14.189 --> 01:14:15.930 of those. There's a lot of those in all sorts 1510 01:14:15.970 --> 01:14:19.550 of ancient religions. It seems to be some sort of 1511 01:14:19.609 --> 01:14:22.930 a historical record of some sort of a catastrophe. 1512 01:14:23.170 --> 01:14:23.350 Right. 1513 01:14:24.520 --> 01:14:26.340 All the other stuff that's attached to it, you just 1514 01:14:26.380 --> 01:14:29.800 got to go, I'm not sure what this means. Right. 1515 01:14:29.880 --> 01:14:31.560 You know, when I was a little boy, you know, 1516 01:14:31.579 --> 01:14:33.279 my mother died when I was very young. But when 1517 01:14:33.300 --> 01:14:34.699 I was a little boy, we would drive up from 1518 01:14:34.859 --> 01:14:36.960 Imperial Valley, California to San Diego. And you've got to 1519 01:14:37.000 --> 01:14:40.579 go through the mountains. And there's this line of white 1520 01:14:40.659 --> 01:14:43.119 stones that I noticed near the top of the mountains. 1521 01:14:43.640 --> 01:14:46.010 And I said, you know, what caused that? And my 1522 01:14:46.050 --> 01:14:49.550 mother said, the flood. And I thought, well, that makes sense. 1523 01:14:49.689 --> 01:14:53.760 It must be the flood. I'm like seven. And so 1524 01:14:54.460 --> 01:14:57.119 some of this stuff gets started this way and it 1525 01:14:57.159 --> 01:14:57.739 becomes truth. 1526 01:14:58.199 --> 01:15:00.520 Well, I mean, it's certainly when you're talking about a 1527 01:15:00.579 --> 01:15:06.270 time thousands of years ago where just the ability to 1528 01:15:06.390 --> 01:15:09.890 read was very limited. And then you're translating things from 1529 01:15:09.930 --> 01:15:14.149 languages that we don't even speak anymore. It gets real squirrely. 1530 01:15:14.479 --> 01:15:16.899 We try to figure out what these events actually were 1531 01:15:16.930 --> 01:15:22.909 that they were documenting. It's it's having a belief system. 1532 01:15:22.989 --> 01:15:24.569 I think there's a lot of value to it. I 1533 01:15:24.609 --> 01:15:27.949 think it gives you a moral scaffolding, gives you structure 1534 01:15:27.970 --> 01:15:30.510 in your life. And that alone is like super beneficial 1535 01:15:30.949 --> 01:15:32.909 to people. And the people that I know that are 1536 01:15:33.010 --> 01:15:36.779 like true Christians really follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. 1537 01:15:37.159 --> 01:15:39.000 They're some of the nicest people I've ever met. Right. 1538 01:15:39.020 --> 01:15:41.680 I think there's really great benefit to that. The problem 1539 01:15:41.720 --> 01:15:46.239 is like, what what are we saying? You know, what exactly, 1540 01:15:46.300 --> 01:15:48.579 like do you, the Adam and Eve one, it's like, okay, 1541 01:15:48.720 --> 01:15:51.239 what do you think happened? Do you think there's two people? 1542 01:15:51.399 --> 01:15:53.159 That's the only two people on earth? And then where 1543 01:15:53.180 --> 01:15:55.590 do the other people come from? The brothers and sisters 1544 01:15:55.649 --> 01:15:57.250 just have sex with each other? Right. 1545 01:15:57.590 --> 01:16:01.789 What? Yeah, I mean, evolution explains that obviously very well. 1546 01:16:02.210 --> 01:16:04.550 But Adam and Eve, you know, I remember when my 1547 01:16:04.609 --> 01:16:08.310 mother told me the story of eating the apple and 1548 01:16:08.369 --> 01:16:13.560 betraying God. And Adam is hiding out and God says, 1549 01:16:13.880 --> 01:16:16.449 where are you? And I asked my mother, I said, 1550 01:16:17.029 --> 01:16:18.670 I thought God knew everything. Why is he asking him 1551 01:16:19.369 --> 01:16:22.140 where he is? I don't understand that. And she said, well, 1552 01:16:22.180 --> 01:16:24.640 he wants him to confess it. Well, there's always that 1553 01:16:24.720 --> 01:16:26.960 kind of answer. You can always give that kind of answer. 1554 01:16:27.340 --> 01:16:30.159 But you don't have to focus on religion. You can 1555 01:16:30.180 --> 01:16:33.960 even go to paleoanthropology, and you can look at, are 1556 01:16:33.979 --> 01:16:37.000 there 20 species of Homo that used to exist in 1557 01:16:37.039 --> 01:16:40.840 the past or more? Or were there just three, Erectus, Neanderthal, 1558 01:16:41.319 --> 01:16:45.069 and Sapiens? And what does it mean to be a species? 1559 01:16:45.689 --> 01:16:48.409 And how can we really prove some of that stuff? 1560 01:16:48.789 --> 01:16:53.130 Before the work of Svante Paibo and the decoding the DNA, 1561 01:16:53.550 --> 01:16:58.310 the genome of ancient creatures doing this thing that people 1562 01:16:58.329 --> 01:17:01.850 thought was impossible, that was speculation. It was really hard 1563 01:17:01.899 --> 01:17:07.020 to tell. And there were a lot of controversies. And now... 1564 01:17:07.430 --> 01:17:09.520 We can look at the genetic record and we can 1565 01:17:09.529 --> 01:17:12.899 look at the genome, but that still doesn't tell us everything. 1566 01:17:13.319 --> 01:17:15.739 So a lot of straight history and a lot of 1567 01:17:15.800 --> 01:17:21.819 paleoanthropology and paleoarchaeology, all of these things always involve, as 1568 01:17:21.899 --> 01:17:27.600 any theory does, speculation. You're guessing and then trying to 1569 01:17:27.689 --> 01:17:30.930 test your guess. And some things are easier to test 1570 01:17:31.350 --> 01:17:35.210 than other things. And so science is a community of 1571 01:17:35.289 --> 01:17:39.069 people who believe they can work towards the truth, but 1572 01:17:39.109 --> 01:17:41.750 the only way to do that is to have good 1573 01:17:41.789 --> 01:17:44.989 guesses and know how to test them and be willing 1574 01:17:45.050 --> 01:17:47.590 to admit that you're wrong and then move on to 1575 01:17:47.630 --> 01:17:53.640 the next best guess. And every scientist recognizes this, but 1576 01:17:53.680 --> 01:17:55.260 in practice, it's really hard. 1577 01:17:56.210 --> 01:17:58.840 Well, it's certainly hard if you're also a fundamentalist Christian. 1578 01:17:59.060 --> 01:18:00.239 Oh, yeah. That makes it much harder. 1579 01:18:00.260 --> 01:18:02.899 Because then you're living in conflict all the time. Right. 1580 01:18:02.920 --> 01:18:04.420 You believe a guy came back from the dead, but 1581 01:18:04.520 --> 01:18:06.300 show me proof for everything else. Yeah. Yeah. 1582 01:18:06.319 --> 01:18:09.479 You believe in miracles, but you can't. They certainly can't 1583 01:18:09.520 --> 01:18:11.380 be produced on demand anymore. 1584 01:18:11.399 --> 01:18:14.930 You also believe that people tell the truth. That's part 1585 01:18:14.949 --> 01:18:16.590 of the problem. Part of the problem with all this 1586 01:18:16.609 --> 01:18:20.489 stuff is like, look, the Bible condones slavery. It talks 1587 01:18:20.529 --> 01:18:25.710 about slavery in multiple passages. Yeah. That's a person thing. 1588 01:18:25.789 --> 01:18:26.630 That's a people thing. 1589 01:18:26.890 --> 01:18:31.260 Right. And the Bible talks about all sorts of things that, 1590 01:18:31.560 --> 01:18:35.640 you know, we don't agree with today, but we try 1591 01:18:35.720 --> 01:18:39.079 to interpret it in such a way that we can 1592 01:18:39.119 --> 01:18:39.560 live with it. 1593 01:18:39.699 --> 01:18:39.979 Right. 1594 01:18:40.220 --> 01:18:43.350 Exactly. You know, so God, I mean, if you read 1595 01:18:43.409 --> 01:18:46.369 anything by Mark Twain about God, which is not only 1596 01:18:46.550 --> 01:18:48.710 brilliant but funny, you know. 1597 01:18:48.729 --> 01:18:49.550 Right. 1598 01:18:51.039 --> 01:18:54.840 Just makes fun of the whole notion that— It. 1599 01:18:54.819 --> 01:18:57.300 Says religion started when the first con man made the 1600 01:18:57.340 --> 01:18:57.880 first sucker. 1601 01:18:58.340 --> 01:19:01.640 Yeah. And, you know, how many germs— he has this story 1602 01:19:01.680 --> 01:19:04.619 about Noah's Ark, about how Noah's family had to be 1603 01:19:04.779 --> 01:19:09.050 so infested with germs so they could survive the flood, 1604 01:19:09.470 --> 01:19:12.930 you know. When you stop and think about it, I mean, like, 1605 01:19:13.930 --> 01:19:17.750 you know, the ark came to rest on Mount Ararat, 1606 01:19:17.949 --> 01:19:20.539 and then all these creatures had to boogie on down 1607 01:19:20.560 --> 01:19:24.800 to Australia almost immediately. And so you get these stories, 1608 01:19:24.840 --> 01:19:27.039 and people don't want to talk about those things. They say, well, 1609 01:19:27.220 --> 01:19:28.449 I don't know how God did it. 1610 01:19:28.800 --> 01:19:32.039 I think there was an event, and I think this 1611 01:19:32.460 --> 01:19:36.270 version of it, this doctrine that you're supposed to adhere to, 1612 01:19:37.380 --> 01:19:43.819 is woefully uninformed about the actual, like, real facts of 1613 01:19:43.859 --> 01:19:46.239 the event. I don't think anybody could possibly know, but 1614 01:19:46.260 --> 01:19:49.180 I think when you have the Epic of Gilgamesh, which 1615 01:19:49.439 --> 01:19:52.649 mirrors the story of Noah's Ark, which mirrors the story 1616 01:19:52.739 --> 01:19:56.529 of other religions that have similar flood myths or flood stories, 1617 01:19:56.970 --> 01:19:59.989 it's probably something happened. Yeah, it's probably one of the 1618 01:20:00.050 --> 01:20:01.890 things that happened. Right. 1619 01:20:02.350 --> 01:20:06.989 I mean, you can tell people It would be intellectually 1620 01:20:07.060 --> 01:20:10.000 dishonest to tell people that all the claims of their 1621 01:20:10.039 --> 01:20:12.239 religion are false. How do you know that? You don't 1622 01:20:12.279 --> 01:20:15.159 know that. And I used to tell Christians, I said, 1623 01:20:15.220 --> 01:20:18.229 you know, when I was a Christian, the best evidence 1624 01:20:18.279 --> 01:20:20.970 for God is what he's done in your life. And 1625 01:20:21.270 --> 01:20:23.270 are you living a better life? And if you're not 1626 01:20:23.310 --> 01:20:25.029 living a better life, then why are you saying that 1627 01:20:25.069 --> 01:20:28.550 he saved you? And if you can't live a more 1628 01:20:28.670 --> 01:20:33.069 moral life than people who don't know Christ... then what 1629 01:20:33.109 --> 01:20:35.649 are you saying? You've claimed that he changed your life 1630 01:20:35.689 --> 01:20:37.920 for the good, but you're not living a life for 1631 01:20:37.939 --> 01:20:41.000 the good. I went to work in construction when I 1632 01:20:41.039 --> 01:20:45.500 was still in high school for a Christian contractor. And 1633 01:20:45.899 --> 01:20:47.899 I was in the union. I joined the laborers union, 1634 01:20:47.939 --> 01:20:50.199 which meant that as a hod carrier, that's the hardest 1635 01:20:50.220 --> 01:20:53.520 job I ever did, that you got paid $ 8. 1636 01:20:53.359 --> 01:20:53.600 25 an hour. 1637 01:20:53.619 --> 01:20:54.779 And this is 1968. And that was a lot of 1638 01:20:54.810 --> 01:20:55.939 money in 1968. And the guy told me when I 1639 01:20:55.970 --> 01:21:02.989 got hired, he said, The union says, I got to 1640 01:21:03.029 --> 01:21:05.180 pay $ 8. 25 an hour, but I'm not going to pay 1641 01:21:05.189 --> 01:21:06.939 you that. I'm going to write you down as only 1642 01:21:07.000 --> 01:21:09.100 working four hours a day, but you're going to work eight. 1643 01:21:10.000 --> 01:21:11.760 And that's how he got around it. And I thought, 1644 01:21:12.880 --> 01:21:15.520 this guy's a Christian and he's lying on these forms 1645 01:21:15.640 --> 01:21:19.340 and on his taxes. And he's going to church. And, um, 1646 01:21:19.729 --> 01:21:22.489 I got the job through my Christian missionary father-in-law who 1647 01:21:22.529 --> 01:21:26.210 knew this guy. And, and I saw that happening time 1648 01:21:26.250 --> 01:21:30.600 and time again. Um, So very often, unfortunately, people who 1649 01:21:30.680 --> 01:21:34.039 claim to be religious and follow the commandments of Jesus, 1650 01:21:34.079 --> 01:21:36.939 which are much more difficult to follow than the commandments 1651 01:21:36.979 --> 01:21:40.729 of the Old Testament because they affect your thoughts and 1652 01:21:40.770 --> 01:21:46.350 not just your overt action. When you don't see consistency, 1653 01:21:46.590 --> 01:21:49.189 the answer could be, well, we're just humans. We're not perfect. 1654 01:21:49.649 --> 01:21:53.130 And that's true. But why doesn't the Holy Spirit that 1655 01:21:53.149 --> 01:21:55.369 you say you believe in make a bigger difference in 1656 01:21:55.390 --> 01:21:57.869 your life than he does in Joe Schmo down the 1657 01:21:57.909 --> 01:22:01.689 street who doesn't claim anything, and he's leading a more 1658 01:22:01.750 --> 01:22:02.729 moral life than you are. 1659 01:22:02.750 --> 01:22:04.489 Especially if you're robbing laborers. 1660 01:22:04.890 --> 01:22:07.760 Yeah, exactly. And lying on your taxes. Yeah. 1661 01:22:08.180 --> 01:22:12.859 And so when you're with a pitaha, they live a 1662 01:22:12.899 --> 01:22:17.140 subsistence lifestyle. Right. And there's been a lot of evidence 1663 01:22:17.319 --> 01:22:24.409 that subsistence lifestyles are some of the Most compatible lifestyles 1664 01:22:24.689 --> 01:22:28.829 in terms of like people's happiness and peace and having 1665 01:22:28.890 --> 01:22:35.079 like a sense of meaning. Like your life is wrapped 1666 01:22:35.140 --> 01:22:38.300 around the gathering of food and community and spending time together. 1667 01:22:38.319 --> 01:22:41.119 And they're the happiest people in the world. Right. 1668 01:22:41.380 --> 01:22:43.520 You know, I monitor them for a while. How many 1669 01:22:43.579 --> 01:22:46.630 hours a week does a hunter work? And I came 1670 01:22:46.689 --> 01:22:49.890 up with about 15 or 20 hours a week. Yeah. 1671 01:22:50.149 --> 01:22:51.729 Unless it's not going well. Yeah. 1672 01:22:51.829 --> 01:22:54.270 And then, yeah, like now they're doing it all the time. 1673 01:22:54.310 --> 01:22:57.649 But when the fish are jumping, it's that. And then 1674 01:22:57.670 --> 01:22:58.789 so what do you do with the rest of your time? 1675 01:22:58.989 --> 01:23:01.430 You lay around the fire and tell jokes and talk 1676 01:23:01.449 --> 01:23:03.789 to people and play with your kids. You know, the 1677 01:23:03.850 --> 01:23:05.250 men love to play with everybody. 1678 01:23:05.270 --> 01:23:09.430 They're in pure subsistence too because they're not even preserving food. Right. 1679 01:23:09.710 --> 01:23:12.390 If they don't find food today, they go hungry today. 1680 01:23:12.989 --> 01:23:15.850 Have you ever seen the Werner Herzog documentary, Happy People? 1681 01:23:16.760 --> 01:23:19.340 I haven't seen that. I did meet him once, but 1682 01:23:19.779 --> 01:23:24.500 I haven't seen that documentary. He's really big into these 1683 01:23:24.579 --> 01:23:26.119 kinds of societies. I know that. 1684 01:23:26.239 --> 01:23:28.199 That's what Happy People is about. It's about these people 1685 01:23:28.220 --> 01:23:31.579 that live in Siberia. Right. There are hunters and trappers 1686 01:23:31.680 --> 01:23:34.680 that live in Siberia, and they're all happy. Right. Yeah, 1687 01:23:34.800 --> 01:23:38.539 and they basically just spend most of their time gathering food, 1688 01:23:38.819 --> 01:23:41.260 gathering food and then spending time with the communities. Yeah. 1689 01:23:41.680 --> 01:23:44.039 Well, the documentary that was made about the Pitaha by 1690 01:23:44.060 --> 01:23:48.439 the Smithsonian and a couple of other institutions. It's called 1691 01:23:48.460 --> 01:23:52.850 The Grammar of Happiness. Because the film crew that went 1692 01:23:53.159 --> 01:23:56.090 with me, it was very small, like three people, but 1693 01:23:56.850 --> 01:23:59.149 they were deeply impressed by what they saw and the 1694 01:23:59.189 --> 01:24:01.670 level of happiness. And all the psychologists that I've taken 1695 01:24:01.729 --> 01:24:05.090 and linguists have also been very impressed by the level. 1696 01:24:05.170 --> 01:24:07.569 If they get past the heat and they get past 1697 01:24:07.689 --> 01:24:12.640 the confrontation with your body and the pita hump don't 1698 01:24:12.680 --> 01:24:14.819 have outhouses. They don't have, you know, I mean, if 1699 01:24:14.859 --> 01:24:17.060 somebody needs to take a dump, they walk off 10 1700 01:24:17.060 --> 01:24:21.239 feet into the bush and do it. And so we 1701 01:24:21.279 --> 01:24:21.579 have to have. 1702 01:24:21.600 --> 01:24:22.579 Do they have toilet paper? 1703 01:24:23.180 --> 01:24:23.300 No. 1704 01:24:23.760 --> 01:24:24.300 What do they do? 1705 01:24:24.899 --> 01:24:25.819 A stick or leaves. 1706 01:24:26.039 --> 01:24:26.800 Oh, sticks. 1707 01:24:26.880 --> 01:24:27.640 Yeah. 1708 01:24:27.659 --> 01:24:27.729 Hey. 1709 01:24:28.000 --> 01:24:29.819 Or if you have corn cobs, that's great, but they 1710 01:24:29.859 --> 01:24:31.619 don't have corn cobs. 1711 01:24:31.659 --> 01:24:32.779 Good Lord. 1712 01:24:32.850 --> 01:24:36.210 Yeah. So, so yeah, but it's just not a big deal. 1713 01:24:36.250 --> 01:24:39.529 They grow up that way. It's just a function, you know? 1714 01:24:39.609 --> 01:24:41.289 And so you ask them things about life. What happens 1715 01:24:41.329 --> 01:24:44.270 to you after you die? What do you mean? Well, 1716 01:24:44.310 --> 01:24:48.090 when you're dead, what happens? Well, you're dead. And so 1717 01:24:48.109 --> 01:24:50.270 there's like a dead monkey that somebody just brought back 1718 01:24:50.289 --> 01:24:52.590 and they're going to eat. He says, he's dead. What 1719 01:24:53.010 --> 01:24:56.369 else is there? Why are you asking this question? We die, 1720 01:24:56.390 --> 01:25:00.130 we die. And they don't fear death. They don't make 1721 01:25:00.170 --> 01:25:02.520 up a story to make themselves not fear death. 1722 01:25:02.920 --> 01:25:04.119 Were there a lot of them injured? 1723 01:25:04.920 --> 01:25:09.079 Oh, yeah. They live a violent life. I have people 1724 01:25:09.140 --> 01:25:12.170 bitten by snakes, cut I have had people who split 1725 01:25:12.189 --> 01:25:15.010 their hand almost in two with a machete, run arrows 1726 01:25:15.069 --> 01:25:18.689 all the way up their arm, step on sticks that 1727 01:25:18.729 --> 01:25:20.649 go all the way through their foot. I mean, these 1728 01:25:20.689 --> 01:25:23.170 are people who are naked running through the jungle, and 1729 01:25:23.229 --> 01:25:29.109 they get scratches. If you get bitten by a snake 1730 01:25:29.329 --> 01:25:35.149 that's hemotoxic, like a jararaca, I don't know what it is. 1731 01:25:36.029 --> 01:25:38.350 It's a bushmaster. When you get bit by one of 1732 01:25:38.390 --> 01:25:41.529 those things, even if you survive, a lot of the 1733 01:25:41.569 --> 01:25:43.989 flesh is going to come off whatever they bit. So 1734 01:25:44.029 --> 01:25:46.569 you see people with one leg normal and one leg 1735 01:25:46.609 --> 01:25:49.109 that looks like bone because it's basically bone with a 1736 01:25:49.130 --> 01:25:51.930 little bit of muscle covered in skin because the flesh 1737 01:25:51.970 --> 01:25:57.029 all fell off after the snake bite. So they know 1738 01:25:57.069 --> 01:25:59.109 what it is to suffer, and they're tough. You know, 1739 01:25:59.130 --> 01:26:01.600 if you get a toothache, how do you fix it? Well, 1740 01:26:02.350 --> 01:26:04.060 if I'm there, I have some things that can help 1741 01:26:04.100 --> 01:26:07.039 with the pain, or I can pull the tooth. But 1742 01:26:07.539 --> 01:26:10.220 most of the time, it rots out. That's how they 1743 01:26:10.239 --> 01:26:13.689 deal with it. So they learn, you know, I was 1744 01:26:13.789 --> 01:26:16.989 talking to a woman one time, you know, really for, 1745 01:26:17.250 --> 01:26:20.020 you know, pina ha, looking very feminine looking woman. And 1746 01:26:20.100 --> 01:26:22.039 she gets bit by a wasp on the face while 1747 01:26:22.079 --> 01:26:24.979 I'm talking to her. And she pulls the stinger out 1748 01:26:25.060 --> 01:26:27.399 and she doesn't, it doesn't stop her conversation. And I've 1749 01:26:27.420 --> 01:26:29.140 been stung by those wasps and I know they hurt 1750 01:26:29.159 --> 01:26:32.520 like hell. And I said, didn't that hurt? Yeah. But 1751 01:26:33.310 --> 01:26:35.590 you didn't say anything. She says, I'm not a baby. 1752 01:26:35.609 --> 01:26:38.930 You know, so this is the way they are. 1753 01:26:38.949 --> 01:26:39.020 Wow. 1754 01:26:39.539 --> 01:26:41.729 From the time they're children, they learn to deal with pain. 1755 01:26:41.739 --> 01:26:43.869 They learn to be tough. In fact, they have an 1756 01:26:43.909 --> 01:26:46.829 expression for that. He wants to be hard. And that 1757 01:26:46.890 --> 01:26:50.609 means you deliberately sleep sometimes less than you need. You 1758 01:26:50.630 --> 01:26:53.550 go hungry on purpose and you put yourself in hard 1759 01:26:53.609 --> 01:26:56.479 situations because you want to be tough. Because that's what 1760 01:26:56.500 --> 01:26:57.439 the environment demands. 1761 01:26:58.100 --> 01:27:03.380 So they build their resilience on purpose. Yes. Voluntarily. Well, 1762 01:27:03.579 --> 01:27:06.470 I would imagine that's like the most important thing to have. 1763 01:27:06.479 --> 01:27:08.390 If you're running around naked in the jungle, you have 1764 01:27:08.409 --> 01:27:09.279 to be tough. Right. 1765 01:27:09.819 --> 01:27:13.039 You have to be. And, you know, like I was 1766 01:27:13.279 --> 01:27:15.340 I go barefoot sometimes in the village. I'm you know, 1767 01:27:15.359 --> 01:27:19.119 I get you can get parasites that way. But, you know, 1768 01:27:19.180 --> 01:27:22.119 I do it anyway. And but when I go to 1769 01:27:22.140 --> 01:27:24.420 the jungle, I always put on shoes because my feet 1770 01:27:24.739 --> 01:27:27.859 can't take all the thorns and everything. And theirs are 1771 01:27:27.920 --> 01:27:31.720 covered with like a whole layer of callus all around 1772 01:27:31.739 --> 01:27:32.119 their foot. 1773 01:27:32.539 --> 01:27:34.619 They have those crazy splayed out toes. Yeah. 1774 01:27:34.659 --> 01:27:34.819 Yeah. 1775 01:27:35.060 --> 01:27:35.220 Yeah. 1776 01:27:35.640 --> 01:27:38.039 And that's the way feet are supposed to look, really. Right. 1777 01:27:38.100 --> 01:27:40.319 You know, ours don't look that way because we protect them. 1778 01:27:40.920 --> 01:27:44.340 But their feet are tough. You know, their hands are tough. 1779 01:27:44.359 --> 01:27:47.199 Their skin is tough. It's like leather. Even a little kid, 1780 01:27:47.699 --> 01:27:51.010 their little kids, rather than crawl, they scoot around on 1781 01:27:51.029 --> 01:27:53.750 their butt. And so you pick a little kid up 1782 01:27:53.810 --> 01:27:55.409 and you look at their butt and it's just callous. 1783 01:27:56.590 --> 01:28:02.850 It's just solid callous. And these kids are tough. But they. 1784 01:28:04.510 --> 01:28:06.569 By their standards, they're very gentle to their kids. I 1785 01:28:06.609 --> 01:28:08.670 had a guy with me one time and he was 1786 01:28:08.689 --> 01:28:10.789 trying to sleep at night and a baby was screaming 1787 01:28:10.850 --> 01:28:13.770 all night. And he said, why don't they tell that 1788 01:28:13.810 --> 01:28:16.770 baby to shut up? And I said, why? I said, 1789 01:28:16.789 --> 01:28:18.710 they don't need to tell it to shut up. That's 1790 01:28:18.770 --> 01:28:20.260 just part of life. You know, they don't have a 1791 01:28:20.300 --> 01:28:22.600 schedule to keep tomorrow. He said, what would happen if 1792 01:28:22.659 --> 01:28:24.739 I went over and swatted it on the behind? I said, 1793 01:28:24.760 --> 01:28:27.340 they'd kill you. They'd kill me. I said, yeah, you 1794 01:28:27.359 --> 01:28:29.859 don't hit kids. They don't believe in hitting kids. 1795 01:28:30.279 --> 01:28:32.399 Swat a baby to get it to, does he think 1796 01:28:32.439 --> 01:28:33.819 that's how babies stop screaming? 1797 01:28:34.699 --> 01:28:35.100 I don't know. 1798 01:28:35.180 --> 01:28:36.649 I mean— Does he have any kids? 1799 01:28:37.869 --> 01:28:40.840 I don't think this guy did, but Christian— often believe, 1800 01:28:41.279 --> 01:28:44.460 really believe, spare the rod and spoil the child. And 1801 01:28:44.500 --> 01:28:47.159 they believe very much in corporal— Back then at least, right? Yeah, 1802 01:28:47.199 --> 01:28:51.789 back then. I don't know today. But, you know, so 1803 01:28:51.810 --> 01:28:55.460 the Pidahav never believed this. They don't accept it. 1804 01:28:56.130 --> 01:28:59.979 Well, I think they're probably correct. It is interesting how 1805 01:29:00.060 --> 01:29:03.399 those people are happier. Like we've done something to ourselves 1806 01:29:03.500 --> 01:29:07.930 by forcing ourselves into cities and jobs and constant stress 1807 01:29:07.970 --> 01:29:11.470 and bills and taxes and all these external things that 1808 01:29:11.489 --> 01:29:14.989 we've attached to our lives that we think are 100% necessary. 1809 01:29:15.609 --> 01:29:20.329 Don't bring anybody any happier. Don't bring anybody any more happiness. 1810 01:29:20.770 --> 01:29:24.449 In fact, make you way more miserable, make you susceptible 1811 01:29:24.529 --> 01:29:26.979 to a bunch of stress-related illnesses. Yeah. 1812 01:29:27.659 --> 01:29:30.670 I've had friends visit me in the jungle, researchers who 1813 01:29:30.710 --> 01:29:35.069 are friends, and they'll say things like, I've never seen 1814 01:29:35.090 --> 01:29:37.850 you so relaxed. You know, you seem tense when you're 1815 01:29:37.869 --> 01:29:40.229 at the university, but down here you just seem totally 1816 01:29:40.270 --> 01:29:43.119 laid back. And I said, well, I didn't notice it, 1817 01:29:43.229 --> 01:29:45.729 but that makes perfect sense to me because all these 1818 01:29:45.789 --> 01:29:47.609 people are laid back. There's Peter Howe that I go 1819 01:29:47.649 --> 01:29:50.270 to talk to the guy, and I find myself nodding off. 1820 01:29:50.689 --> 01:29:52.800 And I'm not even sleepy when I go over there, 1821 01:29:52.819 --> 01:29:56.399 but he's just so laid back and talks so calmly 1822 01:29:56.460 --> 01:30:00.060 and softly. and telling jokes and things that it just 1823 01:30:00.079 --> 01:30:00.739 puts me to sleep. 1824 01:30:01.020 --> 01:30:02.880 God, it's such a bummer that those people have to 1825 01:30:02.939 --> 01:30:03.560 struggle now. 1826 01:30:03.859 --> 01:30:04.840 Yeah, it's terrible. 1827 01:30:08.109 --> 01:30:09.609 What do they hunt? What do they eat? 1828 01:30:10.750 --> 01:30:13.470 Seventy percent of their diet before they started having river 1829 01:30:13.510 --> 01:30:17.569 problems was fish. So the average diet of a Pita 1830 01:30:17.590 --> 01:30:22.960 Ha family is fish and water and jungle nuts and 1831 01:30:23.020 --> 01:30:26.399 things you get from the jungle. Hunter-gatherers, which they are, 1832 01:30:27.039 --> 01:30:31.140 have healthier diets than agriculturalists. Because, you know, we had 1833 01:30:32.279 --> 01:30:36.239 this outbreak of disease from lettuce recently in this country. 1834 01:30:37.539 --> 01:30:39.420 They don't grow vegetables, so they're never going to get 1835 01:30:39.460 --> 01:30:41.760 that kind of thing. They don't get that in naturally 1836 01:30:41.819 --> 01:30:45.220 occurring things out in the jungle. Right. So their diets 1837 01:30:45.279 --> 01:30:49.590 are healthier. They're eating protein. I know, for example, that 1838 01:30:49.630 --> 01:30:52.630 I could take any Pitaham man out of the jungle 1839 01:30:53.069 --> 01:30:55.550 at random, and if I weigh him, he's going to 1840 01:30:55.569 --> 01:31:02.180 be 155 pounds. He's going to have about a 25-inch waist, 26. 1841 01:31:02.180 --> 01:31:06.899 He's going to have about 4% body fat, and he's 1842 01:31:06.939 --> 01:31:11.989 just going to be lean, mean machine. And they do 1843 01:31:12.050 --> 01:31:14.250 try to harden themselves, but that's just what the life 1844 01:31:14.470 --> 01:31:15.029 does to you. 1845 01:31:16.189 --> 01:31:18.449 But they're not overweight. They're not dealing with obesity. 1846 01:31:18.529 --> 01:31:25.430 No, you're never. Only when outsiders, you know, representatives of 1847 01:31:25.449 --> 01:31:27.670 the Brazilian government thought it would be good to give 1848 01:31:27.689 --> 01:31:30.130 them something to rely on. So they brought in a 1849 01:31:30.149 --> 01:31:33.090 lot of rice and they started letting the people feed. 1850 01:31:33.390 --> 01:31:35.720 The people don't grow rice, but the government would supply it. 1851 01:31:36.130 --> 01:31:39.069 So now all of a sudden you see people overweight 1852 01:31:40.140 --> 01:31:42.779 because they're eating starch, which they never used to eat 1853 01:31:42.819 --> 01:31:45.640 that much of. Or I took a dentist in once 1854 01:31:45.760 --> 01:31:49.619 about 25 years ago and we inspected the mouth of 1855 01:31:49.800 --> 01:31:53.640 every living pitaha and not one cavity. He was disappointed. 1856 01:31:53.659 --> 01:31:54.590 He said, I thought I was going to be able 1857 01:31:54.600 --> 01:31:57.579 to do some free dental work here, and nobody has 1858 01:31:57.619 --> 01:32:02.250 a cavity. Well, then somebody introduced sugarcane into their fields 1859 01:32:02.590 --> 01:32:06.050 from the outside world, and now it's almost 100% cavities. 1860 01:32:06.189 --> 01:32:09.050 Everybody has cavities because they eat sugarcane. 1861 01:32:09.609 --> 01:32:09.930 Wow. 1862 01:32:10.050 --> 01:32:12.390 So you keep away the sweets, you keep away the starch, 1863 01:32:13.069 --> 01:32:15.729 and you get healthier people. This is just living proof 1864 01:32:15.810 --> 01:32:19.640 of what we often read about diets, but that we're 1865 01:32:19.659 --> 01:32:22.720 so tempted by that we don't normally follow. 1866 01:32:22.739 --> 01:32:25.199 I heard another issue with them is when they get 1867 01:32:25.300 --> 01:32:26.300 introduced to soda. 1868 01:32:27.420 --> 01:32:28.479 Yeah, that's bad. 1869 01:32:28.920 --> 01:32:29.239 Yeah. 1870 01:32:29.479 --> 01:32:31.079 Also whiskey, but that's a different matter. 1871 01:32:31.340 --> 01:32:31.619 Sure. 1872 01:32:31.640 --> 01:32:35.090 They're both bad. Soda is, yeah, I mean, they love it. 1873 01:32:35.100 --> 01:32:38.640 They call it, you know, sweet water. And they will 1874 01:32:38.659 --> 01:32:40.520 drink the hell out of that. If they got, you know, 1875 01:32:40.560 --> 01:32:42.210 five gallons, they'll drink it all. I had a guy 1876 01:32:42.289 --> 01:32:45.670 once who wove a basket for me. And I said, 1877 01:32:45.829 --> 01:32:48.649 you know, what do you want for it? And he 1878 01:32:48.710 --> 01:32:51.210 knew that I had some canned fruit that I used 1879 01:32:51.390 --> 01:32:53.609 on Sundays for my kids when we were all living there. 1880 01:32:54.180 --> 01:32:56.779 And he said, I want a can of this stuff, 1881 01:32:56.819 --> 01:33:00.619 which is peaches and sweet syrup. And it was a 1882 01:33:00.640 --> 01:33:02.899 big can. And he ate that whole thing. And the 1883 01:33:02.920 --> 01:33:05.779 kids came around. And I've seen guys trade with a boat. 1884 01:33:06.439 --> 01:33:08.520 And they'll get like a kilo of sugar, two and 1885 01:33:08.539 --> 01:33:10.619 a half pounds of sugar. And they just sit down 1886 01:33:10.649 --> 01:33:11.460 with a spoon and eat it. 1887 01:33:11.649 --> 01:33:12.189 Oh, boy. 1888 01:33:12.310 --> 01:33:14.149 And so if they have it, they eat it. And 1889 01:33:14.170 --> 01:33:15.350 if they don't have it, they don't eat it. 1890 01:33:15.350 --> 01:33:16.869 And they have no idea that it's bad for them 1891 01:33:16.890 --> 01:33:18.770 because it tastes good. Why would it be bad? Right. 1892 01:33:19.149 --> 01:33:22.130 You can eat anything you find as a hunter-gatherer. And 1893 01:33:22.149 --> 01:33:24.340 you're not going to have enough of it. To be 1894 01:33:24.350 --> 01:33:24.880 bad for you. 1895 01:33:25.060 --> 01:33:25.300 Right. 1896 01:33:25.560 --> 01:33:27.100 Because you're going to get something else the next day. 1897 01:33:27.399 --> 01:33:29.899 Or like tobacco. I can take in tobacco, but they're 1898 01:33:29.920 --> 01:33:31.779 not going to get addicted to it. They're not going to, 1899 01:33:32.340 --> 01:33:35.140 you know, even when they roll cigarettes, they like them, 1900 01:33:35.220 --> 01:33:37.760 but they only have it like once or twice a year. 1901 01:33:37.800 --> 01:33:40.399 So you don't have to worry about it. You know, 1902 01:33:40.539 --> 01:33:42.220 if they had it all the time, they would have 1903 01:33:42.359 --> 01:33:43.260 serious issues. 1904 01:33:43.880 --> 01:33:46.949 So they've only developed addictions based on what they've been 1905 01:33:46.989 --> 01:33:48.430 introduced from the Western world. 1906 01:33:48.609 --> 01:33:50.829 Right. 100%. 1907 01:33:51.329 --> 01:33:54.510 So tell me about this conversion that you have. Tell 1908 01:33:54.529 --> 01:33:57.449 me about how you, like, what are the steps to 1909 01:33:57.489 --> 01:34:00.520 go from being a true believer, living with the Pidaha, 1910 01:34:01.220 --> 01:34:04.979 and then changing your opinions? How many steps did it take? 1911 01:34:05.859 --> 01:34:08.300 It took some practical steps and it took a lot 1912 01:34:08.319 --> 01:34:09.239 of mental steps. 1913 01:34:10.079 --> 01:34:10.699 How much time? 1914 01:34:12.439 --> 01:34:15.220 I would say that I started seriously doubting my faith 1915 01:34:15.520 --> 01:34:21.170 about five or six years into my time. So about 1982, 1983. 1916 01:34:21.170 --> 01:34:22.970 And I did not announce that I was not a 1917 01:34:23.010 --> 01:34:31.470 Christian until 2000. And because Christians were saying things about, 1918 01:34:31.590 --> 01:34:34.090 actually it was 2001, Christians were saying things about the 1919 01:34:34.149 --> 01:34:38.409 war in Iraq, about how the soldiers that we send 1920 01:34:38.449 --> 01:34:43.020 over there are the blessed peacemakers of the gospel. And 1921 01:34:43.350 --> 01:34:47.220 I didn't like that. And so the first step is 1922 01:34:47.420 --> 01:34:50.109 you start to doubt. Then you pray so that you 1923 01:34:50.390 --> 01:34:53.890 won't doubt because the Apostle Thomas said, Lord, I believe. 1924 01:34:53.970 --> 01:34:58.050 Help mine unbelief. But then after a certain point, that 1925 01:34:58.069 --> 01:35:01.770 doesn't work so well. So you start to read literature 1926 01:35:01.890 --> 01:35:05.880 from apologetics, trying to defend these, you know, defend your 1927 01:35:05.939 --> 01:35:08.399 mind against these things that you're thinking. And then you realize, 1928 01:35:08.420 --> 01:35:12.760 I'm not satisfied with those answers either. So finally, one day, 1929 01:35:13.560 --> 01:35:17.329 you reach the conclusion that I just, I just can't 1930 01:35:17.350 --> 01:35:21.229 do it anymore. I can't sustain this belief. I can't 1931 01:35:21.409 --> 01:35:24.189 pretend that I have something that I'm not. And so 1932 01:35:25.399 --> 01:35:28.659 then eventually I told my wife, I said, I just 1933 01:35:28.680 --> 01:35:31.640 don't believe this stuff anymore. I can't believe it. And 1934 01:35:34.199 --> 01:35:37.060 pretty much instantaneously, she walked out of the house and 1935 01:35:37.079 --> 01:35:40.079 we got a divorce. That was the end of that. Also, 1936 01:35:40.119 --> 01:35:42.020 if you're a Christian missionary and you're getting your income 1937 01:35:42.100 --> 01:35:44.520 from being a missionary, and then you tell people, oh, 1938 01:35:44.569 --> 01:35:46.529 I don't believe anymore, then you're unemployed. 1939 01:35:46.729 --> 01:35:48.550 Did you have any other issues in the marriage other 1940 01:35:48.590 --> 01:35:49.010 than that? 1941 01:35:49.949 --> 01:35:52.689 Yeah, it wasn't. That wasn't the only issue. But she 1942 01:35:52.729 --> 01:35:55.479 tracked up all the issues we had to what she 1943 01:35:55.520 --> 01:35:57.180 perceived as my declining faith. 1944 01:35:58.720 --> 01:36:00.399 Because, you. 1945 01:36:01.939 --> 01:36:06.159 Know, I loved rock music before we met. We met 1946 01:36:06.199 --> 01:36:08.300 at a Jimi Hendrix concert, and I went many years 1947 01:36:08.319 --> 01:36:11.340 without listening to rock music. And I love rock music. 1948 01:36:11.739 --> 01:36:14.500 And so I finally started listening to it again. And 1949 01:36:15.619 --> 01:36:17.880 she got upset. That was a sign that I was 1950 01:36:17.920 --> 01:36:23.239 starting to fade away. And, you know, so and I'm 1951 01:36:23.279 --> 01:36:25.210 not a perfect person. You know, I would go out 1952 01:36:25.250 --> 01:36:28.689 with Brazilian friends drinking. And that's definitely a no, no. 1953 01:36:30.449 --> 01:36:34.750 And any religion that tries to keep you from Hendricks. Yeah. Yeah. 1954 01:36:35.029 --> 01:36:36.529 Can't be. Can't be a real religion. 1955 01:36:36.600 --> 01:36:38.779 My dad said to me when I first became a Christian, 1956 01:36:38.800 --> 01:36:40.979 you know, he was the epitome of an atheist, you know, 1957 01:36:41.079 --> 01:36:45.359 and he's. He said, the one thing about religions is 1958 01:36:45.800 --> 01:36:48.899 they're always trying to beat their own system. They're always 1959 01:36:48.939 --> 01:36:51.199 trying to find an exception so they don't have to 1960 01:36:51.279 --> 01:36:53.779 do the unpleasant things that religion tells them they need 1961 01:36:53.819 --> 01:36:56.659 to do. And I thought, oh, you don't know anything. 1962 01:36:58.180 --> 01:36:59.979 You don't know anything about religion. You've never been in 1963 01:37:00.020 --> 01:37:03.989 part of a church. But it's not entirely false. People 1964 01:37:04.029 --> 01:37:07.989 are always trying to make, you know, it's like another 1965 01:37:08.029 --> 01:37:10.630 expression that comes to mind when you're, If you see 1966 01:37:10.689 --> 01:37:12.909 somebody who says they're a believer and now they start 1967 01:37:12.949 --> 01:37:15.829 doing things you don't think they should do, there are 1968 01:37:15.850 --> 01:37:18.369 two reactions you could have. One is justice and one 1969 01:37:18.409 --> 01:37:21.880 is mercy. And everybody wants to give justice and get 1970 01:37:21.939 --> 01:37:28.220 mercy for their beliefs and for their transgressions. And so 1971 01:37:29.159 --> 01:37:31.880 I was giving myself mercy and my wife was giving 1972 01:37:31.939 --> 01:37:35.220 me justice. But in the end, I realized I'm not 1973 01:37:35.239 --> 01:37:37.689 going to be bound by these rules anymore. I'm just 1974 01:37:37.710 --> 01:37:39.750 going to live my life according to my best lights 1975 01:37:39.850 --> 01:37:42.170 and according to the best decisions. And I'm not going 1976 01:37:42.189 --> 01:37:44.630 to let this book tell me anymore. The ironic thing is, 1977 01:37:44.649 --> 01:37:46.590 you know, I graduated number one in my class at 1978 01:37:46.630 --> 01:37:48.380 a Bible school. So I know the Bible really well. 1979 01:37:49.310 --> 01:37:51.340 And when people try to reconvert me, I've had many 1980 01:37:51.399 --> 01:37:54.380 Christians try to reconvert me. I said, that's not going 1981 01:37:54.399 --> 01:37:56.500 to work, you know, because I know the Bible probably 1982 01:37:56.539 --> 01:37:58.000 better than you do. So you're not going to give 1983 01:37:58.020 --> 01:38:00.720 me a verse I don't know. I said, I'm not 1984 01:38:00.760 --> 01:38:02.739 telling you you're wrong. And I'm not even telling you 1985 01:38:02.760 --> 01:38:04.979 your interpretation is wrong. I'm just saying it doesn't work 1986 01:38:05.000 --> 01:38:07.039 for me. And I can't pretend that it does. 1987 01:38:07.600 --> 01:38:14.199 Right. It's got to be weird to have your beliefs 1988 01:38:14.270 --> 01:38:17.590 confronted by a group of people where as you're learning 1989 01:38:17.649 --> 01:38:23.510 their language, you're realizing that this moral framework and the 1990 01:38:23.550 --> 01:38:26.930 scaffolding that you've only attributed to Christianity and you think 1991 01:38:27.010 --> 01:38:30.899 that it's just Christianity and religion that makes people good people. 1992 01:38:31.579 --> 01:38:34.430 And then here's people that don't have any God. Right. 1993 01:38:35.510 --> 01:38:37.170 Yeah. So like, you know, you're in a big storm. 1994 01:38:37.289 --> 01:38:40.649 The Amazon has storms in the rainy season. So somebody's 1995 01:38:40.670 --> 01:38:43.670 house blows over because their houses, they're hunter gatherers and 1996 01:38:43.689 --> 01:38:45.869 they're semi nomadic. So they don't build the best houses. 1997 01:38:46.460 --> 01:38:49.520 So it's pouring rain and somebody's house blows over and 1998 01:38:49.560 --> 01:38:52.619 they're just stuck there in the rain. What is their reaction? 1999 01:38:52.939 --> 01:38:55.890 They start laughing like it's the funniest thing that ever happened. 2000 01:38:56.369 --> 01:38:58.550 And they will go off into other people's huts and 2001 01:38:58.590 --> 01:39:00.369 sleep on the ground or get near the fire or 2002 01:39:00.409 --> 01:39:02.750 they might come to my house, that's very common, and 2003 01:39:02.850 --> 01:39:04.229 want to sleep with me and then the next day 2004 01:39:04.270 --> 01:39:08.409 they'll rebuild it. There's nothing except for fear of immediate 2005 01:39:08.489 --> 01:39:11.649 threat from the outside or from animals that gets them 2006 01:39:12.029 --> 01:39:14.869 to lose their cool. And when they do lose their cool, 2007 01:39:16.000 --> 01:39:20.600 It's not really losing their cool. It is calculated defense. 2008 01:39:21.539 --> 01:39:24.880 They know how to take care of themselves. When I 2009 01:39:24.920 --> 01:39:27.659 mentioned to this guy that they would kill him, I said, 2010 01:39:27.689 --> 01:39:29.649 they kill for a living. Don't forget that. That's how 2011 01:39:29.689 --> 01:39:33.310 they make their living. Every man there, every boy here 2012 01:39:33.710 --> 01:39:36.729 could shoot you through the eye at 50 yards with 2013 01:39:36.810 --> 01:39:39.029 one of those arrows. They're not going to miss. If 2014 01:39:39.069 --> 01:39:42.630 they decide to kill you or me, we're dead. So 2015 01:39:42.970 --> 01:39:45.609 they don't because they make a difference between killing out 2016 01:39:45.630 --> 01:39:49.810 of necessity and killing to murder. But if they think 2017 01:39:49.850 --> 01:39:51.430 they have to defend their family, you're dead. 2018 01:39:51.909 --> 01:39:55.970 But their culture doesn't encourage squabbles. Like they just, they're easygoing. 2019 01:39:56.029 --> 01:39:56.789 They take everything. 2020 01:39:57.470 --> 01:40:00.729 The biggest, if there's a concept of sin among the Pidaha, 2021 01:40:00.890 --> 01:40:03.810 it is anger. You don't raise your voice in anger. 2022 01:40:03.890 --> 01:40:07.659 You don't hit another Pidaha in anger. You know, I 2023 01:40:07.720 --> 01:40:10.520 saw a guy get drunk. When they get alcohol, they 2024 01:40:10.539 --> 01:40:13.069 get drunk. And he took a shotgun that he had 2025 01:40:13.109 --> 01:40:16.229 gotten from a Brazilian and he shot a dog that 2026 01:40:16.270 --> 01:40:20.800 belonged to his brother. And his brother runs up to 2027 01:40:20.819 --> 01:40:23.539 the dog and he's just sobbing because they love their dogs. 2028 01:40:23.600 --> 01:40:26.260 And he's just crying that his dog's dead. And I 2029 01:40:26.300 --> 01:40:27.739 went up to him and I thought, oh God, there's 2030 01:40:27.760 --> 01:40:29.279 going to be some violence here. I got to get 2031 01:40:29.350 --> 01:40:31.270 ready for this. And I said, what are you going 2032 01:40:31.289 --> 01:40:33.789 to do? He said, what do you mean? I said, 2033 01:40:34.090 --> 01:40:35.609 are you going to do anything to your brother? He 2034 01:40:35.649 --> 01:40:38.270 shot your dog. He said, I don't do anything to 2035 01:40:38.310 --> 01:40:40.449 my brother. He's my brother. He shouldn't have shot my dog, 2036 01:40:40.489 --> 01:40:42.949 but he's drunk and his head's not working. You know, 2037 01:40:43.020 --> 01:40:44.680 I miss my dog. I love my dog, but I 2038 01:40:44.720 --> 01:40:46.260 love my brother. I'm not going to hurt my brother. 2039 01:40:47.220 --> 01:40:48.520 So they just don't react that way. 2040 01:40:48.939 --> 01:40:51.000 So do they have punishment for crimes? 2041 01:40:52.319 --> 01:40:55.699 They have punishment if it threatens the survival of the village. 2042 01:40:55.819 --> 01:40:58.899 So there was one young man, a teenager, and I 2043 01:40:58.960 --> 01:41:02.380 talk about him in, um, in both my book, don't 2044 01:41:02.439 --> 01:41:04.140 sleep through our snakes. And in the new one that's 2045 01:41:04.180 --> 01:41:08.439 coming out next year, born of the river, um, who 2046 01:41:08.479 --> 01:41:12.220 was paid in alcohol and a new shotgun to kill 2047 01:41:12.819 --> 01:41:17.729 somebody who was living up the river, who wasn't a Pitaha, 2048 01:41:17.979 --> 01:41:21.850 living on the same river. And he killed him. And 2049 01:41:21.890 --> 01:41:25.550 the Pitaha saw this as an existential threat to the 2050 01:41:25.590 --> 01:41:28.109 whole community because they knew that the police could come up. 2051 01:41:28.449 --> 01:41:30.750 They knew that soldiers could come up. They knew that 2052 01:41:31.369 --> 01:41:34.710 many Pitaha could be killed if this wasn't handled. So 2053 01:41:34.869 --> 01:41:36.399 they didn't hurt him, but they kicked him out of 2054 01:41:36.409 --> 01:41:37.779 the village. He had to live on his own. And 2055 01:41:37.819 --> 01:41:41.260 he died about two months later. He was dead. It's 2056 01:41:41.279 --> 01:41:42.720 hard to live on your own in the middle of 2057 01:41:42.739 --> 01:41:45.380 the jungle with no community and nobody who has anything 2058 01:41:45.420 --> 01:41:49.420 to do with you. Just shun. Wow. So that's the 2059 01:41:49.460 --> 01:41:51.649 worst punishment they have. Banishment. Banishment. 2060 01:41:52.810 --> 01:41:56.170 Banishment in the jungle is crazy. Yeah. What did they 2061 01:41:56.210 --> 01:41:58.170 give him to survive? Was it like you when you 2062 01:41:58.210 --> 01:41:58.670 were learning? 2063 01:41:59.289 --> 01:41:59.789 He got nothing. 2064 01:42:00.090 --> 01:42:00.430 Nothing. 2065 01:42:00.529 --> 01:42:03.069 Yeah, get out. He could take what he had. but 2066 01:42:03.189 --> 01:42:05.090 nobody gave him anything else. So he had a bow 2067 01:42:05.130 --> 01:42:06.949 and arrow, no food, no clothes. 2068 01:42:07.229 --> 01:42:07.949 How did he die? 2069 01:42:09.960 --> 01:42:12.300 Well, that I don't know, because I just know that 2070 01:42:12.359 --> 01:42:15.479 when I came, I would ask about him, and then 2071 01:42:15.520 --> 01:42:18.880 they said, oh, he's dead. So there's two possibilities. He died, 2072 01:42:19.180 --> 01:42:22.270 naturally death, which I think is probably what happened, or 2073 01:42:22.329 --> 01:42:22.989 somebody killed him. 2074 01:42:23.670 --> 01:42:25.270 And then changed their name. I didn't do it. 2075 01:42:25.470 --> 01:42:29.170 Yeah, yeah. That could have easily happened. 2076 01:42:29.229 --> 01:42:31.270 The change of the name gag is awesome. 2077 01:42:31.840 --> 01:42:34.439 Everybody up there is violent. You see Brazilians coming up 2078 01:42:34.500 --> 01:42:37.720 in these boats. Many of them are like pirates. I mean, 2079 01:42:37.739 --> 01:42:40.800 they don't practice piracy now. Some of them do. But 2080 01:42:40.899 --> 01:42:43.520 you go on a boat with these guys, and these 2081 01:42:43.579 --> 01:42:46.220 are some tough-looking guys. They've got scars on their faces 2082 01:42:46.260 --> 01:42:48.800 and scars on their... These are knife fights. These are 2083 01:42:48.819 --> 01:42:55.279 guys who... I got really mad at somebody once, and 2084 01:42:55.479 --> 01:42:57.680 I mentioned to another Brazilian, I said, if he keeps 2085 01:42:57.699 --> 01:42:59.020 doing that, I'm going to punch him in the face. 2086 01:42:59.060 --> 01:43:01.229 And he says, If you punch him in the face, 2087 01:43:01.270 --> 01:43:03.529 he's going to kill you. You know, he'll either get 2088 01:43:03.569 --> 01:43:05.399 a knife or he'll get a gun. So if you 2089 01:43:05.420 --> 01:43:07.119 decide you're going to hit somebody, you better be armed 2090 01:43:07.220 --> 01:43:09.079 because they're going to come at you with whatever weapon 2091 01:43:09.100 --> 01:43:09.840 they can get their hands on. 2092 01:43:09.840 --> 01:43:11.220 You really thought that you were just going to be 2093 01:43:11.239 --> 01:43:11.819 able to punch him? 2094 01:43:13.199 --> 01:43:15.979 I was just talking, but I, you know, obviously didn't 2095 01:43:16.020 --> 01:43:18.199 have a lot of, you know, my dad liked to 2096 01:43:18.239 --> 01:43:21.729 fight a lot. Were you guys drunk at the time 2097 01:43:21.770 --> 01:43:25.130 when you were doing this? Oh, no, I wasn't drunk. 2098 01:43:25.470 --> 01:43:28.130 This guy was drunk and he was pushing and he was... 2099 01:43:28.439 --> 01:43:30.890 giving my daughters, who by that time were pretty little 2100 01:43:31.189 --> 01:43:34.329 blonde teenagers, a hard time. And I told him to 2101 01:43:34.369 --> 01:43:38.909 get away. And he wanted to fight. And I got 2102 01:43:38.949 --> 01:43:41.470 it calmed down, but I thought, you know, if he 2103 01:43:41.489 --> 01:43:43.109 keeps trying, I'm going to punch him in the face. 2104 01:43:43.170 --> 01:43:45.649 And I told this guy that, and he said, you 2105 01:43:45.670 --> 01:43:47.710 don't do that out here. Unless you're willing to kill 2106 01:43:47.750 --> 01:43:50.609 him right now, don't do that. Because he's not going 2107 01:43:50.630 --> 01:43:53.069 to fight you fair. He's going to come at you 2108 01:43:53.109 --> 01:43:54.930 when you're not expecting it, and you're going to die. 2109 01:43:55.909 --> 01:43:56.060 So. 2110 01:43:56.949 --> 01:44:00.409 This is– it's just a different concept. So avoiding violence 2111 01:44:00.789 --> 01:44:03.310 has lots of reasons to be done. 2112 01:44:04.710 --> 01:44:06.850 I agree with that at all times. 2113 01:44:07.130 --> 01:44:07.329 Yeah. 2114 01:44:07.729 --> 01:44:09.829 I think people should constantly avoid violence. 2115 01:44:10.689 --> 01:44:12.840 I completely agree too. And the PETA has shown you that. 2116 01:44:12.880 --> 01:44:16.340 These are people who are much better at violence than 2117 01:44:16.920 --> 01:44:20.119 most people in this country without guns. 2118 01:44:20.739 --> 01:44:21.659 And they avoid it at all costs. 2119 01:44:21.680 --> 01:44:23.159 And they avoid it at all costs. 2120 01:44:23.220 --> 01:44:23.800 Yeah. Wise. 2121 01:44:23.819 --> 01:44:25.310 Wise. Yeah, very wise. 2122 01:44:25.810 --> 01:44:28.310 What did you think when you were just looking at 2123 01:44:28.369 --> 01:44:32.010 the framework that they live by that these people don't 2124 01:44:32.050 --> 01:44:36.109 have a God, that they don't have like someone watching over, 2125 01:44:36.189 --> 01:44:38.569 making sure they're doing the right thing all the time 2126 01:44:38.670 --> 01:44:42.899 or this punishment of being burning forever in hell? None 2127 01:44:42.939 --> 01:44:44.600 of that is motivating them. No. 2128 01:44:45.079 --> 01:44:47.279 And I also thought that they would be afraid of death. 2129 01:44:47.539 --> 01:44:51.439 They're not. I thought they would be afraid of the unknown. 2130 01:44:51.739 --> 01:44:55.739 They're not. They're willing to learn. I sit outside on 2131 01:44:55.760 --> 01:44:59.350 the riverbank with them and they point out satellites going 2132 01:44:59.390 --> 01:45:03.069 overhead because they know the sky so well that they say, 2133 01:45:03.090 --> 01:45:06.050 what's that? And I look and it's like, must be 2134 01:45:06.069 --> 01:45:08.529 a satellite. I said, it's like a radio thing because 2135 01:45:08.550 --> 01:45:10.510 they have radio. I mean, they don't have radios, but 2136 01:45:10.569 --> 01:45:14.149 I have radio. And they said, well, who put that 2137 01:45:14.210 --> 01:45:17.920 up there? I said, I don't know. I said, Americans, 2138 01:45:18.880 --> 01:45:21.439 I think. And they said, You know how to do that? 2139 01:45:21.479 --> 01:45:22.680 I said, no, I don't know how to do that. 2140 01:45:22.739 --> 01:45:24.600 So they said, some other Americans know how to do that. 2141 01:45:24.619 --> 01:45:26.119 I said, yeah, I don't know how to do that. 2142 01:45:27.640 --> 01:45:30.340 But they're very conscious of their environment. 2143 01:45:30.720 --> 01:45:31.380 Right. 2144 01:45:31.619 --> 01:45:33.970 And they're very curious and they want to learn these things. 2145 01:45:34.569 --> 01:45:36.289 But if I told them that God put it up there, 2146 01:45:36.569 --> 01:45:37.409 they wouldn't pay attention. 2147 01:45:37.829 --> 01:45:42.170 Now, they have these spirits that we talked about earlier 2148 01:45:42.390 --> 01:45:47.020 where they believe a thing embodies a spirit. Like it 2149 01:45:47.060 --> 01:45:49.659 could be like a jaguar embodies a spirit. Yes. 2150 01:45:50.819 --> 01:45:53.539 So they have some spirits. So that's a spirit we 2151 01:45:53.579 --> 01:45:55.819 haven't talked about yet. So they have the spirit Igagai, 2152 01:45:56.390 --> 01:45:59.989 which they believe, you know, so they might see a 2153 01:46:00.029 --> 01:46:02.029 man and then they might see a jaguar. And then 2154 01:46:02.069 --> 01:46:03.829 they say, it must be the same thing. You know, 2155 01:46:03.890 --> 01:46:06.770 this man became a jaguar or the jaguar became a man. 2156 01:46:07.710 --> 01:46:11.829 And this is a belief that is, in fact, shapeshifting 2157 01:46:11.890 --> 01:46:15.550 is not an uncommon belief in the Amazon among even 2158 01:46:15.590 --> 01:46:19.800 Brazilians that live there. So one time I got up 2159 01:46:19.840 --> 01:46:22.789 in the morning and everybody was yelling and pointing at 2160 01:46:23.069 --> 01:46:27.250 the beach on the other side. And I said, what 2161 01:46:27.270 --> 01:46:29.770 are we looking at? They said, can't you see it? 2162 01:46:29.909 --> 01:46:32.350 I said, I don't see anything. And they said, that's Igagai. 2163 01:46:32.970 --> 01:46:37.890 And I didn't see anything. Then later, a few nights later, 2164 01:46:37.949 --> 01:46:41.140 somebody said, we've seen Igagai. It's dark. It's night. And 2165 01:46:41.149 --> 01:46:42.979 the guy wakes me up. He says, we've seen Igagai. 2166 01:46:43.000 --> 01:46:45.819 He's not far behind your house. Would you come with us? 2167 01:46:45.819 --> 01:46:47.890 Because we know you're not afraid of him. you know, 2168 01:46:48.090 --> 01:46:51.239 and I fell for that. And so we go out 2169 01:46:51.300 --> 01:46:53.300 there and then I turn around and they're not by 2170 01:46:53.340 --> 01:46:57.079 me because Igagai can also refer to the jaguar shape. 2171 01:46:57.260 --> 01:47:00.119 So there's a jaguar out there and I just won't 2172 01:47:00.159 --> 01:47:02.390 go walking out there with a machete, you know, and 2173 01:47:02.399 --> 01:47:04.050 then I realized they're not with me and I go 2174 01:47:04.090 --> 01:47:06.289 back and they said, did you see it? I said, no, 2175 01:47:06.329 --> 01:47:12.010 I didn't see anything. But they, if they see a jaguar, 2176 01:47:12.569 --> 01:47:14.630 they believe that it could be a jaguar or it 2177 01:47:14.670 --> 01:47:16.180 could be Igagai. 2178 01:47:17.079 --> 01:47:19.619 But when they were seeing this igagai and you couldn't 2179 01:47:19.659 --> 01:47:20.920 see anything, they were seeing it. 2180 01:47:21.760 --> 01:47:27.260 Yes. And I was looking for a human-looking creature. But 2181 01:47:27.840 --> 01:47:31.159 it's very possible that there was a jaguar just inside 2182 01:47:31.199 --> 01:47:32.560 the forest that I didn't see. 2183 01:47:32.560 --> 01:47:33.810 But they could see it and you couldn't. 2184 01:47:34.409 --> 01:47:36.909 Yeah, because, well, yeah, but if you walk around with 2185 01:47:36.930 --> 01:47:38.869 them in the jungle, you find that they can see 2186 01:47:38.890 --> 01:47:41.189 a lot of things you can't see. So once I 2187 01:47:41.210 --> 01:47:43.510 was walking with a guy down a path and he said, oh, 2188 01:47:43.670 --> 01:47:46.510 don't step on that snake. It's a bushmaster. And I said, what? 2189 01:47:47.250 --> 01:47:49.050 And I'm looking down. I'm looking at the path. I 2190 01:47:49.090 --> 01:47:52.649 don't see anything. And I said, what snake? And he 2191 01:47:52.689 --> 01:47:55.579 takes his bow and he shoots. And the arrow starts 2192 01:47:56.039 --> 01:47:58.060 flocking around like that. And he pulls it up. And 2193 01:47:58.079 --> 01:47:59.800 there's a bushmaster at the end. He said, that one. 2194 01:48:00.340 --> 01:48:02.960 Don't step on that one. And I didn't see it. 2195 01:48:03.079 --> 01:48:07.460 And I've almost put my hand on snakes. I don't 2196 01:48:07.479 --> 01:48:11.600 know why I'm still alive. Because it's like I'm a 2197 01:48:12.319 --> 01:48:15.899 special needs person. They have to watch out for me 2198 01:48:15.920 --> 01:48:18.199 when I'm in the jungle. Because It takes a lot 2199 01:48:18.229 --> 01:48:20.619 of skill to be able to see these things. Just 2200 01:48:20.659 --> 01:48:22.520 like when I take them to the city for like 2201 01:48:22.699 --> 01:48:26.439 medical work, they get totally lost. They can't they it's 2202 01:48:26.479 --> 01:48:28.239 hard for them to understand how I can find my 2203 01:48:28.279 --> 01:48:32.470 way around the city because the cues that I'm using 2204 01:48:33.050 --> 01:48:34.810 are totally different than the things they're used to. 2205 01:48:35.310 --> 01:48:38.529 So this Igagai, this thing that they said they saw, 2206 01:48:38.609 --> 01:48:41.279 they could have just been seeing an animal and saying 2207 01:48:41.479 --> 01:48:44.520 it was Igagai and agreeing that it was a spirit. 2208 01:48:44.840 --> 01:48:47.500 And that's not like they're seeing a spirit that you're 2209 01:48:47.539 --> 01:48:51.399 not seeing. Did you ever take that into consideration that 2210 01:48:51.439 --> 01:48:52.779 they can see things you can't see? 2211 01:48:52.960 --> 01:48:55.399 Yes, that is another possibility. And I definitely took that. 2212 01:48:55.699 --> 01:48:58.229 In fact, for the first several years before I had 2213 01:48:58.289 --> 01:49:02.550 really investigated the different shape shifting of Igagai, I thought 2214 01:49:02.569 --> 01:49:05.020 that's all it could mean. They were seeing something. And 2215 01:49:05.100 --> 01:49:06.829 I couldn't see it. They were all seeing it. 2216 01:49:06.880 --> 01:49:10.260 So you took that into consideration that maybe they have 2217 01:49:10.300 --> 01:49:12.090 a sense that you don't have? Yes. 2218 01:49:12.510 --> 01:49:16.569 And it's clear that they have senses in the jungle. 2219 01:49:16.590 --> 01:49:18.270 They're able to sense things that I cannot. 2220 01:49:18.550 --> 01:49:18.970 Like how? 2221 01:49:20.010 --> 01:49:26.430 Well, like I say, they've grown up learning. So let's 2222 01:49:26.449 --> 01:49:28.300 say that you see a branch move in a tree. 2223 01:49:29.479 --> 01:49:32.869 Was that the wind? Was that a monkey moving? Was 2224 01:49:32.909 --> 01:49:35.119 that a snake up in the tree? What was it? 2225 01:49:36.289 --> 01:49:36.689 I don't know. 2226 01:49:36.909 --> 01:49:39.989 I barely noticed that the branches make moving. But they 2227 01:49:40.010 --> 01:49:42.640 know not only that it's moving, but exactly what caused it. 2228 01:49:43.010 --> 01:49:45.529 I can see bubbles coming out of the water from 2229 01:49:45.590 --> 01:49:49.529 the river. They're just bubbles to me, but to them, 2230 01:49:49.810 --> 01:49:55.579 they represent either a rock underneath or an alligator or 2231 01:49:55.659 --> 01:49:58.460 some other creature that's under the water. And they can 2232 01:49:58.500 --> 01:50:01.739 tell by the bubbles. But I can't. So they've learned to... 2233 01:50:02.520 --> 01:50:06.140 interpret their world in a way that I can't. 2234 01:50:06.560 --> 01:50:08.859 So it's not that they don't have senses that you, 2235 01:50:09.760 --> 01:50:11.539 that they have senses that you don't have, but that 2236 01:50:11.659 --> 01:50:13.000 they have pattern recognition. 2237 01:50:13.819 --> 01:50:18.079 That's the way I would put it. But again, you 2238 01:50:18.100 --> 01:50:22.770 would need to do some sort of psychological testing and 2239 01:50:22.850 --> 01:50:25.590 much more controlled conditions than I've ever been able to 2240 01:50:25.649 --> 01:50:29.649 do to sort those things out. But my view now 2241 01:50:29.789 --> 01:50:33.479 is that they simply have the ability to recognize and, 2242 01:50:34.220 --> 01:50:37.460 and perceive things that they've grown up with that I 2243 01:50:37.520 --> 01:50:38.279 miss entirely. 2244 01:50:39.520 --> 01:50:45.069 And this spirit thing, does it always embody a creature 2245 01:50:45.149 --> 01:50:48.590 that they're, that they're, that's common like a Jaguar or 2246 01:50:48.689 --> 01:50:51.949 does it sometimes take on another form? 2247 01:50:54.170 --> 01:50:57.760 It can take these, these, um, entities that I've talked about. 2248 01:50:58.689 --> 01:51:06.090 So there's another one, um, um, I, which has long teeth. 2249 01:51:07.029 --> 01:51:10.029 And so they see these different creatures. One's naked, talks 2250 01:51:10.069 --> 01:51:16.100 in a high voice. And so they're putting experiences they 2251 01:51:16.149 --> 01:51:20.100 can't explain into the shapes of these entities that they 2252 01:51:20.159 --> 01:51:23.819 can explain. So just like us, we see so many 2253 01:51:23.880 --> 01:51:26.090 things in the world we don't understand. That's what science 2254 01:51:26.119 --> 01:51:30.100 is all about. So we create theoretical entities to be 2255 01:51:30.199 --> 01:51:33.819 able to explain those observations that we otherwise have no 2256 01:51:33.920 --> 01:51:39.729 explanation for. So in a sense, these separate entities are 2257 01:51:39.750 --> 01:51:41.890 a primitive form. I shouldn't even use the word primitive. 2258 01:51:41.909 --> 01:51:45.010 They're a form of science given what they have. They're 2259 01:51:45.470 --> 01:51:48.789 reducing the unexplained to the explainable. 2260 01:51:49.489 --> 01:51:53.729 And their audit of the jungle is limited to the 2261 01:51:53.850 --> 01:51:57.350 places that they've traveled. Right. So their version of the 2262 01:51:57.430 --> 01:52:01.369 world is entirely limited to the language they possess. Is 2263 01:52:01.430 --> 01:52:02.090 it written at all? 2264 01:52:02.989 --> 01:52:05.069 I developed a writing system for them, yes. 2265 01:52:05.090 --> 01:52:08.409 But before you know. Before you know. So non-written language, 2266 01:52:08.529 --> 01:52:12.840 verbal language with no historical database to draw from. Right. 2267 01:52:13.569 --> 01:52:16.199 But they actually get some really good skills out of this. 2268 01:52:16.239 --> 01:52:18.819 So I took a guy to the nearest town, a 2269 01:52:19.300 --> 01:52:22.039 big town, Porto Velho. It's the capital of a Brazilian state. 2270 01:52:22.909 --> 01:52:25.949 because he had cirrhosis of the liver, however he got that. 2271 01:52:26.670 --> 01:52:28.369 And I took him to the hospital. First, we went 2272 01:52:28.409 --> 01:52:31.409 to my house that I had in that city on 2273 01:52:31.430 --> 01:52:34.550 the missionary compound. He had never been out of the 2274 01:52:34.590 --> 01:52:37.170 jungle before in his life. So we go there and 2275 01:52:37.229 --> 01:52:38.850 we have lunch and I said, now it's time to 2276 01:52:38.890 --> 01:52:40.689 go to the hospital. So I take him to the 2277 01:52:40.750 --> 01:52:42.689 hospital and he says, I don't want to stay here. 2278 01:52:43.210 --> 01:52:45.289 I said, the doctors say you have to stay here 2279 01:52:45.329 --> 01:52:47.390 so they can make you feel better. And so then 2280 01:52:47.449 --> 01:52:49.520 I drive off after I spent a couple of hours 2281 01:52:49.560 --> 01:52:54.970 with him. And, um, The next morning, about 6 a.m., 2282 01:52:55.470 --> 01:52:57.949 there's this knocking on my door. So this is 30 2283 01:52:57.949 --> 01:53:01.670 miles away. The hospital's 30 miles away. And he's standing 2284 01:53:01.710 --> 01:53:04.430 there wearing a hospital gown with no underwear or anything on. 2285 01:53:05.010 --> 01:53:09.260 And I said, how did you find my house? He said, well, 2286 01:53:09.270 --> 01:53:11.199 I just walked here. I said, but how did you 2287 01:53:11.239 --> 01:53:12.960 know how to walk here? Well, I saw it yesterday. 2288 01:53:13.720 --> 01:53:15.380 But all he had to do was get the river 2289 01:53:15.439 --> 01:53:19.819 where the river is and then mentally compute where we're at. 2290 01:53:19.899 --> 01:53:23.539 So he... Many experiments have shown that people who don't 2291 01:53:23.600 --> 01:53:27.079 have right and left, front and back, but use absolute 2292 01:53:27.100 --> 01:53:29.460 directions like up river, down river, to the jungle, away 2293 01:53:29.479 --> 01:53:33.250 from the jungle, are better at finding their way in 2294 01:53:33.310 --> 01:53:35.949 new places than we are. You know, I can tell 2295 01:53:35.989 --> 01:53:38.470 you turn north, and you might know what I'm talking about. 2296 01:53:38.630 --> 01:53:41.250 For the average person, I say, turn north. If your 2297 01:53:41.270 --> 01:53:42.930 life depends on it, you don't know which way to turn. 2298 01:53:44.149 --> 01:53:46.560 But they would know. And so that gives them a 2299 01:53:46.609 --> 01:53:49.640 better sense of a map of where they're at. 2300 01:53:49.989 --> 01:53:51.569 So do they have a word for north? 2301 01:53:52.770 --> 01:53:56.170 No, they only use upriver. So the first thing they 2302 01:53:56.189 --> 01:53:57.750 have to do, the first thing he did when we 2303 01:53:57.770 --> 01:54:00.979 got him out to town was, where's the river? And 2304 01:54:01.029 --> 01:54:03.279 I showed him the river. And now he knew where 2305 01:54:03.300 --> 01:54:07.739 everything was. Because he got the river, hence he's got 2306 01:54:07.779 --> 01:54:09.600 my house. Now he knows where everything is. 2307 01:54:09.600 --> 01:54:11.159 30 miles away. 2308 01:54:11.380 --> 01:54:12.319 Yeah, 30 miles away. 2309 01:54:12.800 --> 01:54:14.409 But doesn't the river wind? 2310 01:54:14.689 --> 01:54:17.270 Yes, but they know how rivers work. And they can 2311 01:54:17.289 --> 01:54:19.149 tell by the direction which way it's flowing. And when 2312 01:54:19.170 --> 01:54:20.670 he looks at it, he knows which way is up 2313 01:54:20.729 --> 01:54:22.470 river and down river based on the way the water 2314 01:54:22.489 --> 01:54:25.810 is flowing. And he walked out barefoot with nothing but 2315 01:54:25.829 --> 01:54:29.579 a hospital gown on, 30 kilometers. And so he left 2316 01:54:29.640 --> 01:54:31.319 at night and he got there first thing in the morning. 2317 01:54:31.539 --> 01:54:31.939 Wow. 2318 01:54:32.180 --> 01:54:34.000 And I said, well, we have to go back. He said, 2319 01:54:34.140 --> 01:54:36.640 I am not going back. I said, well, the doctor 2320 01:54:36.680 --> 01:54:38.539 says you'll die if you don't go back. He says, well, 2321 01:54:38.560 --> 01:54:40.199 I'm going to die then because I'm not going back. 2322 01:54:40.699 --> 01:54:42.300 He said, I would rather go back and die with 2323 01:54:42.340 --> 01:54:44.739 my people. And so I took him back. And a 2324 01:54:44.760 --> 01:54:45.850 few days later, he was dead. 2325 01:54:47.210 --> 01:54:47.850 Was he a drinker? 2326 01:54:48.789 --> 01:54:51.890 He had been, yeah. There was a time before I 2327 01:54:51.949 --> 01:54:56.289 helped the Indian agency demarcate their reservation so it could 2328 01:54:56.310 --> 01:54:59.600 be controlled that boats came up and down all the 2329 01:54:59.640 --> 01:55:04.159 time when the Brazil nuts were falling and when there 2330 01:55:04.180 --> 01:55:07.220 were other jungle products like latex and sorva, which is 2331 01:55:07.279 --> 01:55:09.479 a product used to make chewing gum and all sorts 2332 01:55:09.520 --> 01:55:12.699 of other things, and copaiba, which is used for suntan lotion. 2333 01:55:12.720 --> 01:55:14.979 So the Brazilian boats would come up. and trade for 2334 01:55:15.020 --> 01:55:17.460 all these things. And they always traded with whiskey because 2335 01:55:17.520 --> 01:55:21.699 that's the, I mean, sugar cane rum, cachaca, which is 2336 01:55:21.800 --> 01:55:24.180 the cheapest thing. You know, it's 30 cents a bottle. 2337 01:55:24.600 --> 01:55:25.899 It was a lot easier to give them that and 2338 01:55:25.920 --> 01:55:28.260 the pitahal like it. You know, I told him one time, 2339 01:55:28.300 --> 01:55:30.260 I said, this stuff's really cheap. It doesn't cost, he said, 2340 01:55:30.319 --> 01:55:32.500 not for us it isn't. We don't otherwise get it 2341 01:55:32.800 --> 01:55:36.500 and we like it. So, you know, they like to drink. 2342 01:55:36.600 --> 01:55:40.600 Did they understand the concept of health, of the consequences 2343 01:55:40.640 --> 01:55:41.520 of drinking alcohol? 2344 01:55:41.779 --> 01:55:44.489 No, because if you're a hunter-gatherer, and you're not used 2345 01:55:44.510 --> 01:55:47.630 to having something in constant supply, you don't have to 2346 01:55:47.670 --> 01:55:50.550 worry about it. But once it comes in constant supply, 2347 01:55:50.569 --> 01:55:52.750 then you do have to worry about it. And when 2348 01:55:52.770 --> 01:55:55.420 these guys keep coming up, giving, leaving this stuff off, 2349 01:55:55.819 --> 01:55:58.640 then it becomes a serious health problem. Whereas before it 2350 01:55:58.680 --> 01:56:01.340 was like, I got drunk six months ago. Right. You know, 2351 01:56:01.380 --> 01:56:02.739 it's not a big deal. Right. 2352 01:56:02.800 --> 01:56:06.659 So once it became commonplace. Yeah. And do they adjust 2353 01:56:06.699 --> 01:56:10.550 their behavior based on people dying of like liver sclerosis? 2354 01:56:10.739 --> 01:56:14.180 Not that I've ever seen. They, they don't, I can 2355 01:56:14.220 --> 01:56:16.520 tell them until I'm blue in the face that it's 2356 01:56:16.539 --> 01:56:19.699 the alcohol that's doing this or the tobacco that's doing this. 2357 01:56:21.149 --> 01:56:23.250 Why would they believe me? They know a lot of 2358 01:56:23.310 --> 01:56:25.569 guys who have drunk a lot of whiskey and they 2359 01:56:25.609 --> 01:56:28.680 don't have it. So these couple of guys got it. 2360 01:56:29.409 --> 01:56:33.149 How do I know that's what caused it? So they 2361 01:56:33.180 --> 01:56:34.159 don't take their word on faith. 2362 01:56:34.180 --> 01:56:34.739 It's very childlike. 2363 01:56:36.340 --> 01:56:40.000 It is childlike in the sense that children learn by evidence. 2364 01:56:40.779 --> 01:56:45.029 And if children don't have evidence for something, And it 2365 01:56:45.069 --> 01:56:47.210 takes a while for the evidence to start to sink in. 2366 01:56:47.229 --> 01:56:48.710 You've got to repeat the experiment. 2367 01:56:49.069 --> 01:56:52.029 Right. But you would imagine that if they're intelligent people, 2368 01:56:52.149 --> 01:56:57.710 you could explain this consumption of alcohol when done infrequently, 2369 01:56:57.789 --> 01:57:01.340 it's okay. But the everyday consumption of alcohol, because you 2370 01:57:01.350 --> 01:57:03.939 have an endless supply of it now, is becoming a 2371 01:57:03.979 --> 01:57:04.680 real problem. 2372 01:57:04.960 --> 01:57:06.800 That's a very good point. And I have brought that 2373 01:57:06.859 --> 01:57:10.380 up with them before. And they say, yeah, we know 2374 01:57:10.399 --> 01:57:11.880 a lot of Brazilians that drink and they don't get 2375 01:57:11.899 --> 01:57:12.439 that sickness. 2376 01:57:13.079 --> 01:57:13.220 Yeah. 2377 01:57:13.949 --> 01:57:16.369 They come right up. It's like I could tell you 2378 01:57:16.430 --> 01:57:19.989 that the COVID vaccine is really good for you. And 2379 01:57:20.029 --> 01:57:21.250 you can say, well, I know a lot of people 2380 01:57:21.289 --> 01:57:23.630 didn't get it, and they didn't get COVID either. They 2381 01:57:24.050 --> 01:57:26.270 weren't vaccinated. They didn't get COVID. So you have to 2382 01:57:26.310 --> 01:57:30.880 look at the statistics. And even there, it's hard. 2383 01:57:31.560 --> 01:57:34.319 They just don't seem very concerned with dying anyway. 2384 01:57:35.039 --> 01:57:38.899 They're not. They don't want to die right now, but 2385 01:57:39.380 --> 01:57:41.020 it happens, and they're not worried about it. 2386 01:57:42.260 --> 01:57:46.039 What do they think? do they have a purpose for life? 2387 01:57:46.479 --> 01:57:49.680 Do they have a thing they worship at all? 2388 01:57:50.819 --> 01:57:55.659 No, they don't worship anything. The community is everything. You 2389 01:57:55.699 --> 01:57:58.890 make a contribution to the community while you're alive, and 2390 01:57:59.229 --> 01:58:00.010 that's your purpose. 2391 01:58:00.729 --> 01:58:01.130 That's it. 2392 01:58:01.310 --> 01:58:04.949 That's it. And it doesn't take any thought. You don't 2393 01:58:04.970 --> 01:58:07.069 need somebody to give a lesson. This is what our 2394 01:58:07.109 --> 01:58:09.970 purpose is, folks. You just see everybody living, and that's 2395 01:58:10.050 --> 01:58:10.550 how you live. 2396 01:58:10.569 --> 01:58:14.699 Isn't it odd that that's not the primary way people live, 2397 01:58:14.779 --> 01:58:18.880 if that makes you so happy? It's interesting because even me, 2398 01:58:19.140 --> 01:58:21.460 I'm hearing this, I'm like, God, it's so appealing. But 2399 01:58:21.600 --> 01:58:23.399 part of me is like, I'm not fucking living like that. 2400 01:58:23.699 --> 01:58:25.539 You know, nobody wants to live like that. It just 2401 01:58:25.560 --> 01:58:29.100 seems too crazy, too difficult, too daunting. I don't want to. 2402 01:58:29.380 --> 01:58:31.890 get bit by a snake and have my bones exposed? 2403 01:58:32.159 --> 01:58:34.210 Well, I often think this when I talk to people 2404 01:58:34.250 --> 01:58:37.710 who are extreme ecologists who think we need to not 2405 01:58:37.750 --> 01:58:40.010 affect the environment. And I'm thinking, yeah, well, go live 2406 01:58:40.050 --> 01:58:42.090 with the pitaha. You know, you're not going to last 2407 01:58:42.130 --> 01:58:46.020 three days there with them. Maybe a few days more, 2408 01:58:46.100 --> 01:58:51.239 but not much. So it is very appealing. And I 2409 01:58:51.300 --> 01:58:54.020 live there and enjoyed it. But while I was living there, 2410 01:58:54.159 --> 01:58:56.159 I had things they didn't have access to. So I 2411 01:58:56.539 --> 01:58:58.779 I can't fairly say that I live just like them. 2412 01:58:58.890 --> 01:58:59.729 And you could always leave. 2413 01:59:00.050 --> 01:59:02.289 And I can always leave, yeah. I mean, I can 2414 01:59:02.710 --> 01:59:06.050 get in my motorboat and take off. Or, in the 2415 01:59:06.109 --> 01:59:08.989 worst case, I can get on my two-way radio or 2416 01:59:09.050 --> 01:59:10.869 satellite phone and call for help. 2417 01:59:11.170 --> 01:59:13.510 Did you ever think about just saying, fuck it, stay 2418 01:59:13.550 --> 01:59:14.829 there forever? Yeah. 2419 01:59:15.170 --> 01:59:17.029 In the early years, I did think about it. I 2420 01:59:17.069 --> 01:59:20.180 thought about not pursuing any kind of graduate degree, not 2421 01:59:20.220 --> 01:59:23.960 worrying about ever coming back to the U.S. And I 2422 01:59:24.020 --> 01:59:26.579 was really loving it there. But then I realized... My 2423 01:59:26.640 --> 01:59:31.670 kids wanted a wider experience, and I didn't have the 2424 01:59:31.729 --> 01:59:32.829 right to deprive them of that. 2425 01:59:32.850 --> 01:59:34.170 So you think if you were single, you would have 2426 01:59:34.189 --> 01:59:34.829 just integrated? 2427 01:59:35.590 --> 01:59:38.409 It's very possible, yeah. I mean, that would have been 2428 01:59:38.470 --> 01:59:41.189 easy to do, although I would have had to become 2429 01:59:41.289 --> 01:59:45.430 much better at outdoor skills than I ever was. I mean, 2430 01:59:45.470 --> 01:59:48.479 I would not stand up to a pitaha's standards of 2431 01:59:48.560 --> 01:59:51.500 hunting and fishing, and no woman would have married me 2432 01:59:51.880 --> 01:59:53.479 because they would have starved to death. 2433 01:59:54.869 --> 01:59:56.449 Did you ever get better at those things? 2434 01:59:57.270 --> 02:00:03.390 Not really. No? For one thing, I like to hunt. 2435 02:00:03.409 --> 02:00:05.449 I started hunting when I was like 10 years old, 2436 02:00:05.489 --> 02:00:09.069 pheasant hunting, dove hunting. And so I do enjoy that, 2437 02:00:09.699 --> 02:00:14.159 but I've never given it the time to become really 2438 02:00:14.199 --> 02:00:16.140 good at it. Now, if I were abandoned in the jungle, 2439 02:00:16.340 --> 02:00:19.279 I probably would, but it would take me a long time. 2440 02:00:19.680 --> 02:00:22.020 These guys are using bows and arrows from the time 2441 02:00:22.039 --> 02:00:24.439 they're two years old. So by the time they get 2442 02:00:24.960 --> 02:00:29.039 To be teenagers, they're perfect. They are absolutely unmatchless in 2443 02:00:29.060 --> 02:00:32.199 their skill. And I've done little archery contests before to 2444 02:00:32.239 --> 02:00:35.890 see how good they are. And it's just astounding. So 2445 02:00:36.319 --> 02:00:38.869 I would have to spend, you know, many years practicing 2446 02:00:38.909 --> 02:00:41.229 to get as good as they are. And then in 2447 02:00:41.270 --> 02:00:43.090 the meantime, I would starve to death because they're not 2448 02:00:43.109 --> 02:00:43.689 going to feed me. 2449 02:00:45.630 --> 02:00:46.930 How are they making their bows? 2450 02:00:48.850 --> 02:00:50.979 There's a couple of different kinds of wood that they use. 2451 02:00:51.100 --> 02:00:55.020 But there's one that is a bright red wood. and 2452 02:00:55.060 --> 02:01:02.859 it's called piranha food, piranha food, because it grows near 2453 02:01:02.920 --> 02:01:06.600 the edge of the river and it drops flowers off 2454 02:01:06.640 --> 02:01:08.920 the tree into the river, and the piranhas love to 2455 02:01:08.939 --> 02:01:11.520 eat those flowers. So if you see a lot of 2456 02:01:11.550 --> 02:01:13.710 those flowers in the water, probably not good to swim there. 2457 02:01:15.090 --> 02:01:17.750 But they take a section of the bark, a big section, 2458 02:01:17.930 --> 02:01:21.970 it might be like four inches by four inches or 2459 02:01:22.029 --> 02:01:27.899 six inches, And it's just a hard piece, maybe eight 2460 02:01:27.939 --> 02:01:31.289 feet long. And they bring that back, and they have 2461 02:01:31.310 --> 02:01:34.829 a special tool. And it could be wood or bone, 2462 02:01:34.869 --> 02:01:36.930 or if they have a machete, they use that. And 2463 02:01:36.949 --> 02:01:39.489 they just start shaping it until finally they get a 2464 02:01:39.529 --> 02:01:45.300 bow that's probably two inches wide and an inch and 2465 02:01:45.319 --> 02:01:49.039 a half thick. And it's taller than they are. It's 2466 02:01:49.100 --> 02:01:50.199 about seven feet long. 2467 02:01:50.960 --> 02:01:51.060 And. 2468 02:01:52.819 --> 02:01:54.899 Then they get the bark from a tree, a certain 2469 02:01:54.920 --> 02:01:58.109 kind of tree, and they give that and they get 2470 02:01:58.149 --> 02:02:01.409 it off in strands. And so a man, a brother 2471 02:02:01.649 --> 02:02:04.529 or a father or a husband will give it to 2472 02:02:04.789 --> 02:02:08.350 their closest woman relative. And she takes those strands and 2473 02:02:08.390 --> 02:02:12.029 she makes a bowstring. So the bow represents man and 2474 02:02:12.090 --> 02:02:14.770 woman working together. A man can make the wood. A 2475 02:02:14.829 --> 02:02:17.680 woman makes the string and they get the arrows. A 2476 02:02:17.699 --> 02:02:19.760 man gets the feathers. A man gets the shaft. The 2477 02:02:19.800 --> 02:02:23.039 woman makes the strings that tie everything on. So she's 2478 02:02:23.079 --> 02:02:27.550 the glue. And once you get that, that thing, yeah, 2479 02:02:27.670 --> 02:02:31.869 there's one right there. This guy. That's a pretty. 2480 02:02:31.909 --> 02:02:33.550 And those are the arrows, really long arrows? 2481 02:02:33.569 --> 02:02:36.300 Yeah, yeah, those are the arrows. And these are fishing arrows, 2482 02:02:36.350 --> 02:02:39.300 so they're much longer. But actually, they're not both fishing arrows. 2483 02:02:39.359 --> 02:02:40.859 One of them is just a regular arrow. So their 2484 02:02:40.920 --> 02:02:44.699 arrows are quite long. And that thing is a very 2485 02:02:44.779 --> 02:02:46.979 powerful bow. And you can see the thickness of the 2486 02:02:47.020 --> 02:02:48.270 string there. 2487 02:02:48.279 --> 02:02:50.300 So.... 2488 02:02:52.729 --> 02:02:53.689 Yeah, and that's the bow. 2489 02:02:54.750 --> 02:02:55.770 They eat a lot of monkeys? 2490 02:02:56.329 --> 02:02:57.479 Yeah, they eat a lot of monkeys. 2491 02:02:57.489 --> 02:02:58.520 Isn't that weird? 2492 02:03:00.119 --> 02:03:04.840 No, I asked them once. I said, do monkeys look 2493 02:03:04.859 --> 02:03:08.039 like people? And they say, no, why would you ask that? 2494 02:03:08.119 --> 02:03:11.090 I said, they look like people to me. And he said, no, no, 2495 02:03:11.119 --> 02:03:14.609 they're covered in hair. You're not covered in hair. So 2496 02:03:14.670 --> 02:03:19.289 I went to the Trans-Amazon Road. I was traveling out 2497 02:03:19.390 --> 02:03:23.300 all by myself, hitchhiking, and I stayed with this Brazilian. Um, 2498 02:03:24.600 --> 02:03:26.399 and I said, do you have any cold water? He said, 2499 02:03:26.539 --> 02:03:29.979 and he had a kerosene, um, refrigerator. And so I 2500 02:03:30.020 --> 02:03:31.960 went over and I opened it to get his cold water. 2501 02:03:32.380 --> 02:03:33.899 And at the bottom, it looked like there were like 2502 02:03:34.000 --> 02:03:37.850 four dead babies. And I'm thinking, Oh my God, what 2503 02:03:37.890 --> 02:03:39.930 is that? I said, what is this? He said, Oh, 2504 02:03:39.970 --> 02:03:42.729 it's just some monkeys. I skinned him, you know, and 2505 02:03:43.670 --> 02:03:47.670 a monkey that's been skinned does look a lot more human. Um, and, uh, 2506 02:03:47.729 --> 02:03:51.840 but nobody thinks twice about it, you know? Um, I said, 2507 02:03:52.100 --> 02:03:55.119 are the monkeys more like us or are they more 2508 02:03:55.159 --> 02:03:57.659 like dogs? Oh, they're like dogs. They're much more like 2509 02:03:57.720 --> 02:04:00.140 dogs than they are like us. They just don't see 2510 02:04:00.180 --> 02:04:00.640 the problem. 2511 02:04:01.260 --> 02:04:01.800 It's just food. 2512 02:04:02.119 --> 02:04:06.470 Yeah, it's just food. And so, you know, and they love, 2513 02:04:07.069 --> 02:04:10.069 their favorite part of any animal is the brains. And 2514 02:04:10.170 --> 02:04:12.729 one reason the brains are so good is because brains 2515 02:04:12.810 --> 02:04:15.670 have a lot of saturated fat. And it's a great 2516 02:04:15.750 --> 02:04:19.130 source of saturated fat. They eat monkey brains? Yeah, they 2517 02:04:19.149 --> 02:04:21.550 eat monkey brains. So, The favorite thing, I was talking 2518 02:04:21.609 --> 02:04:25.430 to a woman one time and I was making a sandwich. 2519 02:04:25.470 --> 02:04:27.949 I had brought in some lunch meat and bread. I 2520 02:04:27.979 --> 02:04:29.579 had just gotten there. It was my first day there. 2521 02:04:29.600 --> 02:04:31.060 And so I had a little bit enough to make 2522 02:04:31.100 --> 02:04:34.939 a sandwich for that night. And I'm squirting mustard. And 2523 02:04:34.960 --> 02:04:36.079 you know, when you get to the end of the 2524 02:04:36.100 --> 02:04:39.140 mustard bottle and you're squeezing, it makes a sound like 2525 02:04:39.640 --> 02:04:45.619 somebody who's got diarrhea. And she says, what is that 2526 02:04:45.979 --> 02:04:49.600 bird shit stuff you're eating? And I said, Well, it's good. 2527 02:04:49.640 --> 02:04:51.680 It's mustard. Do you want to try some? Oh, no. 2528 02:04:52.359 --> 02:04:55.479 And she said, look at this bird shit. He's eating 2529 02:04:55.550 --> 02:04:58.939 bird shit. And then I look at her, and she's 2530 02:04:59.010 --> 02:05:02.630 eating the brains out of a rat. And he's got 2531 02:05:02.649 --> 02:05:05.869 this rat head, and she's sucking the brains out. And 2532 02:05:06.789 --> 02:05:09.890 they're cooked, of course. But she's sucking the brains. And 2533 02:05:09.930 --> 02:05:14.189 I'm thinking, this is a great example for an introductory 2534 02:05:14.229 --> 02:05:18.250 class in anthropology, you know, how different we perceive things. 2535 02:05:18.649 --> 02:05:20.529 That's great to her. This is great to me, but 2536 02:05:20.569 --> 02:05:22.029 it grosses the other one out. 2537 02:05:22.210 --> 02:05:27.449 That's wild. Mustard's disgusting. Rat brain's great. Yeah. And isn't 2538 02:05:27.489 --> 02:05:31.729 there an issue with eating primate brain tissue? Can you 2539 02:05:31.770 --> 02:05:32.829 get prion diseases? 2540 02:05:33.029 --> 02:05:36.140 Well, there are diseases that they discovered in New Guinea 2541 02:05:36.220 --> 02:05:40.640 from cannibals who were eating human brains. Right. But I'm 2542 02:05:40.659 --> 02:05:43.380 not aware of any diseases that are passed by eating 2543 02:05:43.439 --> 02:05:47.100 monkey brains or other kinds of brains. They'll eat any 2544 02:05:47.159 --> 02:05:47.880 animal's brains. 2545 02:05:49.369 --> 02:05:52.029 So the prion diseases that you get are from animals 2546 02:05:52.130 --> 02:05:55.470 eating the same animal, right? Like mad cow disease is 2547 02:05:55.529 --> 02:05:58.949 because they serve cows' literal brain and neural tissue from 2548 02:05:59.149 --> 02:06:00.189 other cows. Right. 2549 02:06:00.760 --> 02:06:03.659 So I'm not an expert on that, but I do 2550 02:06:03.699 --> 02:06:05.439 know that I've never seen a case of them getting 2551 02:06:05.619 --> 02:06:08.739 disease from that. And the superficial reading that I've done 2552 02:06:08.819 --> 02:06:11.779 on it suggests that humans get it from eating human brains. 2553 02:06:12.300 --> 02:06:16.310 Interesting. So they can eat deer brains, cows. The rat brains, 2554 02:06:16.399 --> 02:06:17.270 no problem. Right. 2555 02:06:17.350 --> 02:06:20.100 So the favorite part of any animal is the head. 2556 02:06:20.760 --> 02:06:22.960 So if they bring me a fish, they'll give me 2557 02:06:23.000 --> 02:06:26.159 a fish. They like to trade fish for canned meat 2558 02:06:26.220 --> 02:06:31.260 because canned meat keeps. But I like fish cheeks, but 2559 02:06:31.880 --> 02:06:34.359 my wife hated the fish heads. She didn't want the 2560 02:06:34.399 --> 02:06:37.560 fish heads around. So they would be happy to keep 2561 02:06:37.579 --> 02:06:39.180 the fish heads, and they just make a big stew 2562 02:06:39.220 --> 02:06:40.819 of fish heads, and they eat the brains and the 2563 02:06:40.920 --> 02:06:43.140 eyeballs and everything. Those are really tasty bits. 2564 02:06:44.039 --> 02:06:45.760 And probably rich in nutrients. 2565 02:06:46.039 --> 02:06:48.100 Yeah, they are rich in nutrients. They know what they're doing. 2566 02:06:48.140 --> 02:06:49.699 They love all the internal organs. 2567 02:06:50.079 --> 02:06:52.579 Yeah, it's so weird how we've moved away from all 2568 02:06:52.619 --> 02:06:55.279 that stuff. Right. I mean, that's one of the things 2569 02:06:55.300 --> 02:06:57.539 that happens with wolves. The alpha in the pack is 2570 02:06:57.560 --> 02:06:58.539 the one that eats the liver. 2571 02:06:59.460 --> 02:06:59.699 Right. 2572 02:07:00.180 --> 02:07:02.619 They know something's going on. There's a lot of nutrients 2573 02:07:02.659 --> 02:07:05.180 in these organ meats, and we've moved away from that 2574 02:07:05.220 --> 02:07:06.279 in a very strange way. 2575 02:07:06.680 --> 02:07:06.859 Right. 2576 02:07:06.880 --> 02:07:09.300 People are disgusted by the idea of liver. Yeah. Yeah. 2577 02:07:09.729 --> 02:07:11.409 So, you know, you go to some– if you go 2578 02:07:11.449 --> 02:07:13.840 to northern Brazil and you go to one of these churrascarias, 2579 02:07:13.899 --> 02:07:15.270 Brazilian steak restaurants. 2580 02:07:17.020 --> 02:07:17.420 Love those. 2581 02:07:17.560 --> 02:07:20.319 If you're in an everyday person's, you're going to get 2582 02:07:20.359 --> 02:07:23.600 a lot of heart and you're going to get liver. 2583 02:07:23.819 --> 02:07:24.180 Kidney. 2584 02:07:24.420 --> 02:07:27.899 Kidney. You're going to get all that stuff. You know, 2585 02:07:27.979 --> 02:07:31.020 so that is stuff they love to eat. 2586 02:07:31.239 --> 02:07:36.100 Sure. Well, a lot of cultures. Mexicans, menudo. Menudo's got 2587 02:07:36.159 --> 02:07:37.970 tripe in it and organ meat. 2588 02:07:38.470 --> 02:07:42.869 Right. And, you know– My brother-in-law, deceased now, but he 2589 02:07:42.909 --> 02:07:46.010 was Mexican, and that's the first thing he insisted that 2590 02:07:46.050 --> 02:07:48.689 my sister learn how to make in terms of true 2591 02:07:48.770 --> 02:07:52.640 Mexican food was menudo. And he wanted that every Saturday, 2592 02:07:52.699 --> 02:07:55.479 and she loved to make it for him. So then 2593 02:07:55.520 --> 02:08:00.640 she made this pozole with cow feet in it. Whoa. And, 2594 02:08:00.649 --> 02:08:02.880 you know, got the hooves and everything in the pozole, 2595 02:08:02.920 --> 02:08:04.300 but cooks all day. 2596 02:08:04.319 --> 02:08:07.039 I remember when I was a kid, pickled pig's feet 2597 02:08:07.079 --> 02:08:07.800 was a big thing. 2598 02:08:07.880 --> 02:08:12.079 Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so internal organs are really good. 2599 02:08:12.590 --> 02:08:15.930 You know that a Brazilian churrascaria is authentic if they 2600 02:08:15.989 --> 02:08:16.829 serve chicken hearts. 2601 02:08:16.890 --> 02:08:17.130 Right. 2602 02:08:17.369 --> 02:08:19.399 You know? And so if I go to one and 2603 02:08:19.420 --> 02:08:21.550 they don't have chicken hearts, I'm quite disappointed. 2604 02:08:21.560 --> 02:08:22.430 It's westernized. 2605 02:08:22.510 --> 02:08:23.189 Yeah, yeah. 2606 02:08:23.510 --> 02:08:25.670 They're still great, but, yeah, I know what you mean. 2607 02:08:25.789 --> 02:08:26.010 Yeah. 2608 02:08:26.210 --> 02:08:28.250 Yeah, I went to one when I was in Brazil. 2609 02:08:28.369 --> 02:08:28.930 It was awesome. 2610 02:08:29.229 --> 02:08:31.710 Oh, yeah. It's Brazilian fast food. 2611 02:08:31.930 --> 02:08:34.569 Yeah, and it is fast, and it's amazing food, too. 2612 02:08:34.600 --> 02:08:36.399 It's like they know how to eat. If you're in 2613 02:08:36.420 --> 02:08:38.859 a rush, a chujasqueria is the best place to eat. Yeah. 2614 02:08:38.880 --> 02:08:41.300 Because you sit down, you flip that cart over to green, 2615 02:08:41.340 --> 02:08:43.659 the food keeps coming. Twenty minutes later, you're stuffed. Exactly. 2616 02:08:43.720 --> 02:08:47.710 Exactly. Exactly. And you ate much more nutrition than having 2617 02:08:47.750 --> 02:08:49.760 a McDonald's Big Mac or something like that. Sure. 2618 02:08:49.840 --> 02:08:50.579 And it's all you can eat. 2619 02:08:50.819 --> 02:08:51.479 Yeah. Yeah. 2620 02:08:51.939 --> 02:08:52.439 It's awesome. 2621 02:08:52.840 --> 02:08:55.399 I used to come out of the village and go 2622 02:08:55.460 --> 02:08:56.640 straight to one of those. I've been out of the 2623 02:08:56.659 --> 02:08:59.020 village for six months and I was really hungry and 2624 02:08:59.039 --> 02:09:01.539 I was coming out on my motorcycle. And the first 2625 02:09:01.600 --> 02:09:03.329 one I saw, I pulled over and that's and I 2626 02:09:03.369 --> 02:09:04.369 ate till I could barely move. 2627 02:09:04.609 --> 02:09:06.829 Did you eat monkey when you were in the jungle? Yeah. 2628 02:09:07.010 --> 02:09:09.569 Yeah. I didn't eat the brains, but they didn't offer 2629 02:09:09.590 --> 02:09:12.409 them either because that's the best part. So they would. 2630 02:09:12.569 --> 02:09:14.149 Would you have if they offered you some? 2631 02:09:14.550 --> 02:09:16.270 Yeah, I would have. I would have. I've tried a 2632 02:09:16.310 --> 02:09:18.970 lot of stuff there. And when I was doing my 2633 02:09:19.029 --> 02:09:22.350 field experience in southern Mexico in Chiapas, I spent some 2634 02:09:22.390 --> 02:09:27.329 time with the Celtales, the Celta people, descendants of the Mayas. And, 2635 02:09:28.109 --> 02:09:31.010 you know, I ate this stuff they chew up and 2636 02:09:31.050 --> 02:09:32.449 spit out and let ferment. 2637 02:09:32.760 --> 02:09:36.279 Oh, I've heard of that. That's a beverage. Is that 2638 02:09:36.380 --> 02:09:37.640 like an alcoholic beverage? 2639 02:09:37.680 --> 02:09:39.399 Yeah. And so I was trying to fit in. And 2640 02:09:39.420 --> 02:09:43.069 so they gave me just a little bit. And they said, 2641 02:09:43.090 --> 02:09:45.649 what'd you think? And I, I'm trying to be this 2642 02:09:46.189 --> 02:09:48.250 cool guy. And I said, I loved it. I hated it, 2643 02:09:48.630 --> 02:09:50.510 but I said, I loved it. And so they bring 2644 02:09:50.550 --> 02:09:55.930 me a big bowl. And so then that night I 2645 02:09:55.989 --> 02:10:00.050 was up, uh, with, um, things coming out of both 2646 02:10:00.149 --> 02:10:03.729 ends all night long. And the next morning, my blood 2647 02:10:03.770 --> 02:10:07.029 pressure was 60 over 40 and I had to be, uh, 2648 02:10:07.100 --> 02:10:08.939 flown out. They had to get me on a mule 2649 02:10:08.979 --> 02:10:12.479 and get me out to the nearest airstrip and out. And, uh, 2650 02:10:13.260 --> 02:10:15.159 But I did my bit. I was accepted as a 2651 02:10:15.239 --> 02:10:18.359 great gringo for eating this stuff, you know, for drinking it. 2652 02:10:18.439 --> 02:10:19.180 What happened to you? 2653 02:10:20.439 --> 02:10:25.270 Well, whatever it was, my body didn't like it. 2654 02:10:26.039 --> 02:10:28.840 So is it just like the bacteria in it, you think? 2655 02:10:29.380 --> 02:10:31.520 Probably. I think it had to be that because it 2656 02:10:31.560 --> 02:10:33.439 didn't gross me out. I didn't like the taste of it, 2657 02:10:33.479 --> 02:10:35.380 but it wasn't grossing me out. And it was a 2658 02:10:35.399 --> 02:10:37.960 happy time. We had little ribbons and stuff. We were 2659 02:10:37.979 --> 02:10:40.149 having a festa and I was sitting with the men 2660 02:10:40.229 --> 02:10:41.149 at the table. 2661 02:10:40.899 --> 02:10:43.550 And And their gut bacteria just knows how to handle it. 2662 02:10:44.140 --> 02:10:47.159 There you go. There you go. 2663 02:10:47.180 --> 02:10:53.260 It says that the human saliva creates the fermentation. 2664 02:10:53.279 --> 02:10:54.119 Yeah, that's right. 2665 02:10:54.359 --> 02:10:57.680 Come on, people. Isn't there a better way to get drunk? 2666 02:10:58.159 --> 02:10:59.039 Good Lord. 2667 02:10:59.180 --> 02:11:01.859 If you want to get drunk and you want it 2668 02:11:01.880 --> 02:11:03.380 bad enough, there it is. 2669 02:11:03.520 --> 02:11:05.319 And I bet that stuff you're not going to drink 2670 02:11:05.380 --> 02:11:08.340 every day because it's so disgusting. It's not going to 2671 02:11:08.359 --> 02:11:09.079 become a problem. 2672 02:11:09.300 --> 02:11:12.760 Once it's fermented, Nobody really cares, you know, who's around 2673 02:11:12.800 --> 02:11:13.340 that culture. 2674 02:11:13.500 --> 02:11:13.859 Boy. 2675 02:11:14.100 --> 02:11:14.760 You know, but. 2676 02:11:16.039 --> 02:11:17.079 What does a monkey taste like? 2677 02:11:18.239 --> 02:11:21.380 Well, there again, I don't have a vocabulary to describe 2678 02:11:21.420 --> 02:11:25.060 all these meats. It's a tough meat, but I pressure it. 2679 02:11:25.649 --> 02:11:26.229 I put the. 2680 02:11:26.250 --> 02:11:27.670 A crock pot? 2681 02:11:27.789 --> 02:11:29.670 Yeah, I put it in a pressure cooker over a fire. 2682 02:11:29.710 --> 02:11:31.770 I take in a pressure cooker, you know, not an 2683 02:11:31.829 --> 02:11:34.149 electric pressure cooker, obviously. One of these pressure cookers you 2684 02:11:34.189 --> 02:11:36.210 can set on top of the fire. And after I 2685 02:11:36.270 --> 02:11:39.109 pressure it, it's falling off the bone and I take 2686 02:11:39.170 --> 02:11:40.930 the meat off. And I throw it in a bowl 2687 02:11:40.989 --> 02:11:43.029 and I put some manioc meal on top of that. 2688 02:11:43.420 --> 02:11:46.100 And then I cover it in Tabasco. And it's great. 2689 02:11:46.460 --> 02:11:48.039 It's very filling and it tastes really good. 2690 02:11:48.380 --> 02:11:50.789 Wow. Did you feel weird eating a monkey? 2691 02:11:52.829 --> 02:11:55.609 When you see the monkey and you put the little 2692 02:11:55.649 --> 02:11:58.489 monkey body inside the pressure cooker. and it looks like 2693 02:11:58.529 --> 02:12:01.229 a baby, it doesn't look too good. But once you 2694 02:12:01.439 --> 02:12:03.300 open up the pressure cooker and it's all cooked and 2695 02:12:03.319 --> 02:12:05.380 the bones are separated from the meat and then it's 2696 02:12:05.420 --> 02:12:08.720 just meat floating in there, you know. And when you're 2697 02:12:08.779 --> 02:12:10.659 out in the jungle and you've been out there long enough, 2698 02:12:11.779 --> 02:12:14.819 just about any kind of meat sounds pretty good. I 2699 02:12:14.859 --> 02:12:18.720 worked with a group called the Wadi. I actually wrote 2700 02:12:18.739 --> 02:12:22.739 a 540-page grammar of their language, co-wrote it. And they 2701 02:12:22.779 --> 02:12:23.840 were cannibals up until 1962. 2702 02:12:23.819 --> 02:12:24.100 Yo. And.... 2703 02:12:26.670 --> 02:12:33.779 They had Indo-cannibalism and Exo-cannibalism. Exo-cannibalism was eating their enemies, 2704 02:12:34.199 --> 02:12:38.140 and Indo-cannibalism was eating their people. And so if you 2705 02:12:38.180 --> 02:12:43.100 die in the village at that time, up until 1962, 2706 02:12:43.359 --> 02:12:45.779 they keep your body. They call all the relatives. Your 2707 02:12:45.810 --> 02:12:48.750 body might sit there in the Amazon sun for three days, 2708 02:12:49.250 --> 02:12:52.810 and your relatives come from all over, and then they 2709 02:12:52.850 --> 02:12:57.750 cook you over a grill. And slowly they roast the body, 2710 02:12:58.289 --> 02:13:00.949 and then they cut it into chunks, and they eat 2711 02:13:00.970 --> 02:13:04.649 them with like little toothpicks. And they eat it until 2712 02:13:04.689 --> 02:13:07.250 everything's gone. They eat the bones. They eat the brains. 2713 02:13:07.289 --> 02:13:08.130 They eat everything. 2714 02:13:08.149 --> 02:13:09.569 They eat human brains. Yeah. 2715 02:13:09.949 --> 02:13:13.079 And the purpose, as best I've been able to figure out, 2716 02:13:13.579 --> 02:13:15.859 anthropologists have tried to answer this, so my answer might 2717 02:13:15.880 --> 02:13:18.300 not be theirs, but it's based on interviews with the people, 2718 02:13:19.079 --> 02:13:23.189 is to give your relatives eternal life. because they live 2719 02:13:23.229 --> 02:13:24.970 in you and you're going to live in somebody else. 2720 02:13:25.010 --> 02:13:29.310 So you just continue living. But exo cannibalism, I kill 2721 02:13:29.350 --> 02:13:31.220 a guy in warfare. I'm going to eat him like 2722 02:13:31.260 --> 02:13:33.159 an animal. I just chop him up and grill him 2723 02:13:33.220 --> 02:13:35.239 and eat it and throw the bones off into the forest. 2724 02:13:36.020 --> 02:13:36.939 So that's totally different. 2725 02:13:37.600 --> 02:13:43.949 Some native Americans practice that. Yeah. Um, It's been said. 2726 02:13:44.069 --> 02:13:46.619 Eating the brain, though, wouldn't that, what is that disease? 2727 02:13:46.659 --> 02:13:49.520 What is this called? Jakob Kreuzfeld? Is that what it's called? 2728 02:13:49.720 --> 02:13:51.600 Yeah, something like that. I should know that. 2729 02:13:52.020 --> 02:13:53.779 But it's mad cow disease, essentially. 2730 02:13:53.859 --> 02:13:58.050 It's like that, yeah. So, but they don't eat people 2731 02:13:58.109 --> 02:14:01.869 all the time. They eat dead relatives. And if anybody's 2732 02:14:01.909 --> 02:14:05.210 ever gotten that disease, it's never been registered. That's crazy. 2733 02:14:05.829 --> 02:14:08.449 But, I mean, even if you're eating dead relatives, you 2734 02:14:08.529 --> 02:14:10.720 eat a dead relative, I would imagine you can get 2735 02:14:10.800 --> 02:14:11.600 prion disease. 2736 02:14:12.239 --> 02:14:15.560 Yeah, but. It depends on how many die. There's a 2737 02:14:15.579 --> 02:14:17.640 whole etiquette about it. You're never allowed to say that 2738 02:14:17.979 --> 02:14:20.350 this tastes really good. For example, you can't say that. 2739 02:14:20.359 --> 02:14:21.670 You can't say delicious. 2740 02:14:21.750 --> 02:14:22.789 Yeah, you can't say that. 2741 02:14:22.850 --> 02:14:23.470 Uncle Tom is yummy. 2742 02:14:23.550 --> 02:14:25.789 And I've talked to some of the older men who 2743 02:14:25.850 --> 02:14:29.689 have eaten their dead, and they say, well, the babies 2744 02:14:29.770 --> 02:14:32.060 taste really good, but you can't say that. 2745 02:14:33.319 --> 02:14:35.939 The babies taste really good is rough. 2746 02:14:36.770 --> 02:14:42.260 It's like human veal. But the Brazilian government and missionaries 2747 02:14:42.340 --> 02:14:44.319 put a stop to that in 62. 2748 02:14:44.319 --> 02:14:47.619 Good move. Why do they let it sit for three 2749 02:14:47.659 --> 02:14:48.399 days before. 2750 02:14:48.180 --> 02:14:49.579 They cut it? Because it takes that long for the 2751 02:14:49.600 --> 02:14:52.119 relatives to come because they might be in other villages. 2752 02:14:52.140 --> 02:14:53.819 So they've got to send runners out to bring the 2753 02:14:53.840 --> 02:14:54.439 whole family together. 2754 02:14:54.460 --> 02:14:55.939 Doesn't the meat start rotting? Yeah. 2755 02:14:56.159 --> 02:14:58.010 It starts to smell pretty bad. And there are a 2756 02:14:58.010 --> 02:15:00.710 lot of stories about people puking after every bite. 2757 02:15:01.189 --> 02:15:04.890 Oh. These are people that can drink that puke beer. 2758 02:15:05.029 --> 02:15:05.569 Yeah, yeah. 2759 02:15:05.930 --> 02:15:06.789 Oh, my God. 2760 02:15:07.109 --> 02:15:07.350 Yeah. 2761 02:15:08.430 --> 02:15:08.529 Oh. 2762 02:15:09.069 --> 02:15:14.340 So you realize cultural differences aren't that superficial. 2763 02:15:14.420 --> 02:15:17.739 What's also probably meat is probably extremely valuable to them. 2764 02:15:18.180 --> 02:15:20.260 And they just probably think, look, there's no reason for 2765 02:15:20.279 --> 02:15:22.039 this to go to waste when it can sustain us. 2766 02:15:22.380 --> 02:15:24.720 It would be very interesting to go back in time 2767 02:15:24.760 --> 02:15:28.270 and see how the customs started. They could have started 2768 02:15:28.319 --> 02:15:30.329 out of hunger, and then you dress it up with 2769 02:15:30.369 --> 02:15:34.750 some religious beliefs. Or the religious beliefs could have come first, 2770 02:15:34.869 --> 02:15:38.270 and you started doing it. But they do have oral 2771 02:15:38.329 --> 02:15:42.689 histories about it. But the oral histories never say we 2772 02:15:43.090 --> 02:15:45.350 were short of meat, so we ate Joe. We ate 2773 02:15:45.390 --> 02:15:51.340 our buddy. But they do say we want to help 2774 02:15:51.380 --> 02:15:53.479 them live in us, and we will live in somebody else. 2775 02:15:53.520 --> 02:15:55.199 So that's the explanation you get. 2776 02:15:55.520 --> 02:15:56.039 Wow. 2777 02:15:56.319 --> 02:15:56.939 Or that I got. 2778 02:15:57.649 --> 02:16:01.310 Wow. Well, when you got there a few years after. 2779 02:16:02.449 --> 02:16:05.260 Yeah, I didn't start working with them until 1985. Okay. 2780 02:16:06.460 --> 02:16:07.640 So it was 20 something years. 2781 02:16:07.659 --> 02:16:08.979 But they still had stories about. 2782 02:16:09.239 --> 02:16:11.039 Oh, yeah. They still had a lot of stories about it. And, 2783 02:16:11.680 --> 02:16:14.470 you know, anybody over 30 had had done it. 2784 02:16:15.060 --> 02:16:17.739 Is there any kind of cannibalism that goes on in 2785 02:16:17.779 --> 02:16:18.619 the Amazon still? 2786 02:16:19.819 --> 02:16:22.960 Probably, but none that I know of. But there are 2787 02:16:23.000 --> 02:16:26.359 still some uncontacted tribes. And there are still tribes that 2788 02:16:26.399 --> 02:16:28.960 behave one way when foreigners are around and another way 2789 02:16:29.000 --> 02:16:33.420 when they're not. I have a friend, she died last year, 2790 02:16:33.469 --> 02:16:37.670 but she was a missionary among those people from the 50s. 2791 02:16:38.510 --> 02:16:42.569 So she remembers the cannibalism. And she told me, although 2792 02:16:42.649 --> 02:16:45.170 some anthropologists deny this, but I think she knows them 2793 02:16:45.209 --> 02:16:48.659 better than any anthropologist who's ever been there, that she said, 2794 02:16:48.739 --> 02:16:50.659 I think when nobody's around, they still do that. 2795 02:16:52.420 --> 02:16:54.479 Yeah. I bet they do, too. 2796 02:16:54.719 --> 02:16:55.360 They don't have warfare. 2797 02:16:55.379 --> 02:16:57.639 Why would they listen to someone else? They don't have warfare. 2798 02:16:57.889 --> 02:17:02.250 Not anymore. They did. But that's been stopped, and they're 2799 02:17:02.329 --> 02:17:04.870 isolated from other groups that they used to be enemies with. 2800 02:17:04.969 --> 02:17:08.510 But there are still some who believe the old-time religion. 2801 02:17:09.610 --> 02:17:16.010 And the old-time religion says, eat your dead. So it's 2802 02:17:16.229 --> 02:17:19.100 quite possible that it happens. But what you find is 2803 02:17:19.139 --> 02:17:22.670 that since the 80s— most of the groups that have 2804 02:17:22.690 --> 02:17:27.430 regular contact with the outside have undergone a very rapid 2805 02:17:27.530 --> 02:17:35.079 process of enculturation into Brazilian society. So even among the 2806 02:17:35.139 --> 02:17:38.680 Pita Hasnauth in the decades since I was there regularly, 2807 02:17:39.420 --> 02:17:42.260 I see pictures of them because my ex-wife still lives 2808 02:17:42.329 --> 02:17:45.969 right next to them. And she sends me short videos 2809 02:17:46.370 --> 02:17:48.090 and pictures of them when they come up to her 2810 02:17:48.909 --> 02:17:52.059 little wooden shack on on the Trans-Amazon Highway by their river. 2811 02:17:52.840 --> 02:17:55.879 And they're dressing very differently now. And some of them... 2812 02:17:56.510 --> 02:17:59.610 are speaking some Portuguese. Not very well, but they're speaking 2813 02:17:59.649 --> 02:18:00.069 some Portuguese. 2814 02:18:00.090 --> 02:18:02.069 And your ex-wife is still a missionary? 2815 02:18:02.270 --> 02:18:07.280 Yeah, she's still trying to convert them. No conversions. They're 2816 02:18:07.299 --> 02:18:08.000 not going to convert. 2817 02:18:08.040 --> 02:18:12.340 Boy, you've got to give it up to her for having, like, stick-to-itiveness. 2818 02:18:12.940 --> 02:18:15.319 I mean, that's really determined. 2819 02:18:15.760 --> 02:18:20.370 She is absolutely a New Testament first century Christian in 2820 02:18:20.430 --> 02:18:21.229 terms of her faith. 2821 02:18:21.469 --> 02:18:22.110 Wow. 2822 02:18:22.129 --> 02:18:24.729 And she doesn't deviate, and she's not afraid of anything. 2823 02:18:25.350 --> 02:18:25.729 I mean, she. 2824 02:18:26.729 --> 02:18:29.870 We've been in many life-threatening situations, and I don't tend 2825 02:18:29.909 --> 02:18:33.170 to get afraid, and she definitely is not afraid, not ever. 2826 02:18:33.770 --> 02:18:36.010 So is that because of her belief that she believes 2827 02:18:36.049 --> 02:18:38.110 that God is looking out for her, and if she dies, 2828 02:18:38.129 --> 02:18:39.309 she's going to go to heaven anyway? 2829 02:18:39.569 --> 02:18:46.620 Yeah. A common refrain among Christian missionaries is, I'm immortal 2830 02:18:47.040 --> 02:18:50.879 until my task is done. God will protect me until 2831 02:18:50.899 --> 02:18:52.479 he's done with me. And so if he's not done 2832 02:18:52.500 --> 02:18:53.780 with me, I don't have to worry about it. And 2833 02:18:53.840 --> 02:18:54.819 if he is, great. 2834 02:18:56.850 --> 02:18:58.629 There's a lot of power in that, too. I mean, 2835 02:18:58.649 --> 02:19:01.170 how many people just live in this constant state of 2836 02:19:01.420 --> 02:19:02.510 existential angst? 2837 02:19:03.010 --> 02:19:06.639 Yeah. That's something she's never had. Wow. She doesn't have that. 2838 02:19:06.780 --> 02:19:08.040 There's a lot of value to that. 2839 02:19:08.200 --> 02:19:10.579 It's what attracted me to her so much, besides the 2840 02:19:10.600 --> 02:19:13.760 fact that she was really cute. That attracted me to 2841 02:19:13.780 --> 02:19:14.969 her a lot when we first met. 2842 02:19:14.979 --> 02:19:17.159 Were you bummed out when she wanted a divorce because 2843 02:19:17.200 --> 02:19:18.079 you lost your faith? 2844 02:19:18.899 --> 02:19:21.469 Well, by that time, we weren't getting along that well 2845 02:19:21.510 --> 02:19:30.260 because she's very anti-science per se. but she's anti-helicopter science. 2846 02:19:31.200 --> 02:19:33.879 She feels that too many people who do studies of 2847 02:19:33.920 --> 02:19:36.860 indigenous groups and languages come in for a short time, 2848 02:19:36.959 --> 02:19:39.360 go out, and just speak a lot of bullshit that 2849 02:19:39.420 --> 02:19:42.079 nobody's ever going to test. And so she hates that. 2850 02:19:42.280 --> 02:19:44.260 And she's seen it happen with the Piraha. I've seen 2851 02:19:44.299 --> 02:19:47.020 it happen with the Piraha. I've seen a couple of 2852 02:19:47.059 --> 02:19:49.799 anthropologists and linguists go in and do doctoral dissertations on 2853 02:19:49.819 --> 02:19:53.909 them that are totally ridiculous. But if I say something, 2854 02:19:53.940 --> 02:19:57.969 I'm a gringo. And I'm jealous because it disagrees with me. 2855 02:19:58.500 --> 02:20:00.930 Do you think that they do that because no one's 2856 02:20:00.950 --> 02:20:03.069 going to check and so they just say, I want 2857 02:20:03.090 --> 02:20:04.770 to just write whatever I want to write? 2858 02:20:05.229 --> 02:20:10.090 That does happen. That definitely happens. It's also because people 2859 02:20:10.159 --> 02:20:12.639 realize it sounds really good to go study an indigenous 2860 02:20:12.680 --> 02:20:14.899 culture or an indigenous language. When you get there and 2861 02:20:14.920 --> 02:20:18.559 you find out this is so damn hard, I have 2862 02:20:18.620 --> 02:20:21.600 no words to put in how hard this is. 2863 02:20:21.659 --> 02:20:22.760 So they bullshit. Yeah. Yeah. 2864 02:20:23.290 --> 02:20:26.409 Because, you know, you want to say to a Piraha, 2865 02:20:26.450 --> 02:20:29.430 what is this? And so how do you ask that? Well, 2866 02:20:30.290 --> 02:20:32.389 the phrase in Piraha is, he go, ok, I say, 2867 02:20:33.389 --> 02:20:35.690 but where do you get that phrase? You can't ask 2868 02:20:35.719 --> 02:20:38.479 somebody how to ask, what is this? Right. If you 2869 02:20:38.500 --> 02:20:41.219 don't know the language. So you have to watch them 2870 02:20:41.260 --> 02:20:44.420 very carefully. And somebody might get something new. Or you 2871 02:20:44.459 --> 02:20:46.799 might even give them something new that they've never seen, 2872 02:20:47.139 --> 02:20:49.659 hoping somebody's going to ask them, what is this? So 2873 02:20:49.680 --> 02:20:51.200 you can write it down and then test it. And 2874 02:20:51.239 --> 02:20:52.079 that's how I got it. 2875 02:20:52.610 --> 02:20:55.000 And so now you're fluent in Piraha. 2876 02:20:55.379 --> 02:20:55.620 Yes. 2877 02:20:55.899 --> 02:20:58.159 So you can go and have a conversation with them 2878 02:20:58.260 --> 02:21:01.579 so you can explore some of these more nuanced subjects 2879 02:21:01.940 --> 02:21:03.579 and do it in their language. 2880 02:21:03.780 --> 02:21:04.000 Yes. 2881 02:21:04.440 --> 02:21:06.459 So you can kind of translate things in a way 2882 02:21:06.479 --> 02:21:08.819 that they're going to understand what you're saying. Yes. 2883 02:21:09.260 --> 02:21:11.579 And that's what takes the most practice. So when I 2884 02:21:11.639 --> 02:21:15.719 first translated the Gospel of Mark into Piraha, I thought 2885 02:21:15.739 --> 02:21:18.440 I had done a marvelous job. And I would read 2886 02:21:18.500 --> 02:21:20.540 bits out to the Piraha and they could explain it 2887 02:21:20.600 --> 02:21:22.540 to me and it seemed like they were understanding it. 2888 02:21:23.920 --> 02:21:27.479 But I used a grammar that was largely based on English. 2889 02:21:27.520 --> 02:21:29.840 So when I read to them large sections, they were 2890 02:21:29.879 --> 02:21:32.579 totally lost. They couldn't understand it at all. And what 2891 02:21:32.600 --> 02:21:35.180 does that mean? It means I got it wrong. It 2892 02:21:35.239 --> 02:21:37.799 means that I haven't figured out the language as well 2893 02:21:37.840 --> 02:21:40.260 as I thought I did. And that's very humbling when 2894 02:21:40.280 --> 02:21:42.889 you've spent so many years trying to do it. So 2895 02:21:42.920 --> 02:21:46.190 I had to start from the ground up again. And 2896 02:21:46.209 --> 02:21:48.750 these are all, you know, before you can learn a language, 2897 02:21:48.770 --> 02:21:51.709 you have to murder it. And before you can carry 2898 02:21:51.750 --> 02:21:54.799 on a conversation You just feel like an idiot for years. 2899 02:21:56.139 --> 02:21:59.840 And for one thing, people who go in to do 2900 02:21:59.909 --> 02:22:02.450 a PhD dissertation on a language like this are going 2901 02:22:02.469 --> 02:22:04.870 to take one to two years of their life, and 2902 02:22:04.909 --> 02:22:08.469 that's it. And that's not enough time. It takes a 2903 02:22:08.530 --> 02:22:10.129 year to get fluent in the language. And I know 2904 02:22:10.190 --> 02:22:13.790 many people who've written about many different Amazonian languages who 2905 02:22:13.850 --> 02:22:16.149 can't speak a word of the language or speak very 2906 02:22:16.209 --> 02:22:18.790 little of it. They'll tell people they speak it, but 2907 02:22:18.989 --> 02:22:21.670 you go with them and you realize they don't speak 2908 02:22:21.719 --> 02:22:23.879 it that well. So if you don't speak it that well, 2909 02:22:23.920 --> 02:22:27.620 how can you ask them to distinguish subtle meaning differences? 2910 02:22:28.139 --> 02:22:33.170 You can't. And that means that a lot of, you know, 2911 02:22:33.690 --> 02:22:37.170 this kind of field work, which is so vital, is 2912 02:22:37.229 --> 02:22:39.389 not as reliable as we would like to think it is. 2913 02:22:40.149 --> 02:22:44.760 That's unfortunate. Yeah. Especially if a young student is coming 2914 02:22:44.819 --> 02:22:47.860 along and they're interested in pursuing it further and they're 2915 02:22:47.959 --> 02:22:50.540 starting off with some faulty assumptions. 2916 02:22:51.260 --> 02:22:54.860 Yes, and the other problem is people learn a theory 2917 02:22:55.379 --> 02:22:59.639 in graduate school, and they take it as their job 2918 02:22:59.680 --> 02:23:02.909 of their dissertation, and this isn't limited to just linguistics 2919 02:23:02.920 --> 02:23:04.770 and anthropology, but they take it as the job of 2920 02:23:04.809 --> 02:23:10.370 their dissertation to support that theory. So, you know, it's 2921 02:23:10.389 --> 02:23:12.590 like Paul Simon says, a man sees what he wants 2922 02:23:12.649 --> 02:23:16.649 to hear and disregards the rest. When you're trying to 2923 02:23:16.670 --> 02:23:21.870 do theoretical research, field research, shouldn't be that theoretically motivated. 2924 02:23:21.909 --> 02:23:24.649 It should be basically descriptive. And then you can do 2925 02:23:24.690 --> 02:23:27.180 the theory later. But most people bring the theory into it. 2926 02:23:27.989 --> 02:23:34.270 And you can't totally divorce those two. But you see 2927 02:23:34.309 --> 02:23:36.790 a fact. So for example, I've worked with Pinaha and 2928 02:23:36.829 --> 02:23:39.750 I'm asking for a certain kind of data. And they 2929 02:23:39.770 --> 02:23:43.590 don't give me what I wanted. And I thought, this 2930 02:23:44.110 --> 02:23:45.829 guy's not giving me what I want. What's wrong with him? 2931 02:23:45.889 --> 02:23:49.209 What am I saying wrong? Is he stupid? And then 2932 02:23:49.739 --> 02:23:52.120 As I learned to speak the language better, I realized, oh, 2933 02:23:52.180 --> 02:23:54.500 he's giving me exactly what I needed, and I was 2934 02:23:54.540 --> 02:23:58.059 too stupid to know it. And so that's hard. You're 2935 02:23:58.079 --> 02:24:00.889 the one working for the PhD. He's just a hunter-gatherer, 2936 02:24:00.909 --> 02:24:02.989 and it turns out he's at least as smart as 2937 02:24:03.030 --> 02:24:04.909 you are, and often he's able to know what you 2938 02:24:04.950 --> 02:24:08.090 need better than you do. And that's another part of 2939 02:24:08.129 --> 02:24:12.049 the humbling experience of doing field research. Wow. 2940 02:24:12.389 --> 02:24:15.690 The amount of commitment that's involved in going as deep 2941 02:24:15.750 --> 02:24:17.729 as you went with this is really crazy. 2942 02:24:18.879 --> 02:24:21.399 Yeah, I give demonstrations, and you can find some on 2943 02:24:21.440 --> 02:24:23.819 the internet, where I take a language that I know 2944 02:24:23.879 --> 02:24:26.920 nothing about, and I switch to Pinaha, which I know 2945 02:24:26.959 --> 02:24:29.780 they know nothing about, and within 20 or 30 minutes, 2946 02:24:30.159 --> 02:24:33.520 I'm able to explain to the audience some basic facts 2947 02:24:33.579 --> 02:24:35.969 about how their grammar works and what their basic vocabulary, 2948 02:24:35.989 --> 02:24:37.889 you know, a lot of basic vocabulary, and I do 2949 02:24:37.909 --> 02:24:39.790 this to linguists. I've done it in front of as 2950 02:24:39.829 --> 02:24:45.370 many as 500 linguists at a time, and then I 2951 02:24:45.430 --> 02:24:47.610 tell them that a lot of people think this is magic, 2952 02:24:47.659 --> 02:24:50.270 this is really cool. I said, What you're seeing here 2953 02:24:50.350 --> 02:24:52.610 is me working for about an hour. Now, you just 2954 02:24:52.649 --> 02:24:55.549 do that every day for two years, and you're in. 2955 02:24:56.829 --> 02:25:00.190 And that's the part. It's intensive. I get a headache 2956 02:25:00.540 --> 02:25:04.479 when I do these demonstrations because my concentration is so hard. And, 2957 02:25:04.520 --> 02:25:09.139 you know, you miss obvious things, and you say bad things, 2958 02:25:09.299 --> 02:25:13.879 and you're just self-correcting all the time. You're just constantly, 2959 02:25:13.899 --> 02:25:15.670 you start off this wide, and you're trying to get 2960 02:25:15.700 --> 02:25:18.209 this narrow end. get down to this point of what 2961 02:25:18.250 --> 02:25:21.610 it actually means. And as you work through that, there 2962 02:25:21.670 --> 02:25:25.350 are no shortcuts. There's no shortcut to doing that. And 2963 02:25:25.389 --> 02:25:27.719 you need to be well-trained, and you need to be 2964 02:25:27.770 --> 02:25:29.739 very committed, and you need to have a little bit 2965 02:25:29.770 --> 02:25:34.040 of talent and work really hard. And when people see 2966 02:25:34.079 --> 02:25:37.120 how easy it looks and then they try it, they 2967 02:25:37.139 --> 02:25:41.040 realize they're seeing me at 20 years down the road 2968 02:25:41.079 --> 02:25:45.979 from when I started. But yeah, There are methods to 2969 02:25:46.139 --> 02:25:48.670 use to learn a language where there's no language in common. 2970 02:25:48.969 --> 02:25:54.629 But it's got to be very difficult to achieve a 2971 02:25:54.930 --> 02:25:58.120 fluent understanding of their language. And the way you did 2972 02:25:58.180 --> 02:26:01.799 it from the ground, literally from starting from what is this? 2973 02:26:02.180 --> 02:26:05.129 How do you say that? And then remembering it, piecing 2974 02:26:05.170 --> 02:26:07.459 it together. And then you have to write it down. 2975 02:26:07.559 --> 02:26:11.459 Then you're writing it down. Right. Oh, my goodness. And 2976 02:26:11.659 --> 02:26:13.920 imagine if a guy like you didn't do that. Like 2977 02:26:13.959 --> 02:26:17.440 how many people are willing to do that? Especially how 2978 02:26:17.469 --> 02:26:20.709 many people that are, you know, you're a linguist. You 2979 02:26:20.729 --> 02:26:25.250 want to be a working intellectual. You don't necessarily want 2980 02:26:25.270 --> 02:26:27.729 to get malaria. You don't want to get eaten by 2981 02:26:27.770 --> 02:26:29.670 a jaguar. You don't want to live in the jungle. 2982 02:26:31.010 --> 02:26:32.930 So there are people who would like to spend that 2983 02:26:32.969 --> 02:26:37.719 much time, but they don't have the funding. So, you know, 2984 02:26:37.979 --> 02:26:42.040 the National Science Foundation and the Brazilian National Science Foundation 2985 02:26:42.139 --> 02:26:45.620 and the British equivalent of the National Science Foundation have 2986 02:26:45.659 --> 02:26:49.270 all funded my research over the years. But the bulk 2987 02:26:49.290 --> 02:26:52.629 of my research was funded by being a missionary. And 2988 02:26:52.690 --> 02:26:55.329 so I had all these years because churches were supporting me. 2989 02:26:55.870 --> 02:26:56.389 But today. 2990 02:26:56.409 --> 02:26:58.690 But did they ever ask, how come you haven't converted 2991 02:26:58.729 --> 02:26:59.159 anybody yet? 2992 02:26:59.829 --> 02:27:01.829 Well, they ask me that all the time. I've had people, 2993 02:27:02.209 --> 02:27:05.049 I showed slides of the Pidaha to a church here 2994 02:27:05.090 --> 02:27:10.409 in Texas, in Dallas. And the people started getting up 2995 02:27:10.469 --> 02:27:13.180 and leaving. And I thought they were interested. They gave 2996 02:27:13.219 --> 02:27:15.600 me money to work in these people. And I said, 2997 02:27:15.620 --> 02:27:18.200 what's the problem? And they said, you're no good at all. 2998 02:27:18.700 --> 02:27:20.459 And I said, well, what are you seeing that you 2999 02:27:20.479 --> 02:27:23.559 don't like? They said, these people are naked. And if 3000 02:27:23.620 --> 02:27:25.930 you're a Christian missionary, why haven't you taught them to 3001 02:27:25.969 --> 02:27:29.090 wear clothes? And I said, Well, they don't want to 3002 02:27:29.110 --> 02:27:31.479 wear clothes. I said, what in the Bible says you 3003 02:27:31.500 --> 02:27:35.360 have to wear clothes? They said, Adam saw Eve's nakedness 3004 02:27:35.440 --> 02:27:39.010 and they were ashamed of each other. You must wear clothes. 3005 02:27:39.190 --> 02:27:41.620 You're not even teaching them the basics of Christianity. And 3006 02:27:41.659 --> 02:27:44.280 I thought, you know, I guess I'm not. You know, 3007 02:27:44.340 --> 02:27:46.399 I didn't realize that's not part of the basics of 3008 02:27:46.440 --> 02:27:47.530 Christianity for me. But. 3009 02:27:50.079 --> 02:27:51.399 You know, how do you tell a guy who wears 3010 02:27:51.440 --> 02:27:57.360 a loincloth that it's three inches too short? You know, 3011 02:27:58.299 --> 02:28:00.760 something's peeking out there. So it's not, they don't wear 3012 02:28:00.799 --> 02:28:03.639 it for modesty, you know. They wear it to keep 3013 02:28:03.680 --> 02:28:08.040 from sticks getting poked in your penis. And so modesty 3014 02:28:08.079 --> 02:28:10.639 has nothing to do with it. Why would you, you know, 3015 02:28:11.280 --> 02:28:13.879 to the average pita ha, a woman's breast is about 3016 02:28:13.920 --> 02:28:17.680 as erotic as an elbow. You know, you see a woman, 3017 02:28:17.719 --> 02:28:20.829 she's nursing her baby. And then the baby stops nursing 3018 02:28:20.909 --> 02:28:23.450 and she's still talking to you and her tits hanging out. 3019 02:28:23.549 --> 02:28:25.670 And it doesn't mean anything to her. And after a while, 3020 02:28:25.690 --> 02:28:27.370 it doesn't mean anything to you either. You know, what's 3021 02:28:27.389 --> 02:28:30.920 the big deal? And so to get across the idea 3022 02:28:30.959 --> 02:28:34.479 that it may be clothes that's causing this problem instead 3023 02:28:34.500 --> 02:28:37.719 of going naked, which then eliminates the problem of lust. 3024 02:28:39.399 --> 02:28:42.180 I mean, it's a hard concept for some churches, but 3025 02:28:42.219 --> 02:28:44.860 churches tend to get very impatient. But then the National 3026 02:28:44.920 --> 02:28:47.549 Science Foundation, for example, if I say I'm going to 3027 02:28:47.590 --> 02:28:50.430 go study language X today, and I need funding for 3028 02:28:50.510 --> 02:28:53.170 five years. Oh, no, we fund those, and that's a 3029 02:28:53.209 --> 02:28:55.670 year's funding. Yeah, but nobody who goes out for a 3030 02:28:55.690 --> 02:28:58.079 year really learns it that well. I need to learn 3031 02:28:58.090 --> 02:29:00.250 it a lot better. Oh, yeah, we'll go somewhere else. 3032 02:29:00.299 --> 02:29:01.540 We're not giving you the money for that. 3033 02:29:02.540 --> 02:29:04.920 Oh, that's ridiculous. Are there really a lot of people 3034 02:29:04.940 --> 02:29:07.079 that are willing to do that kind of extensive work? 3035 02:29:07.299 --> 02:29:08.200 I wouldn't say a lot. 3036 02:29:08.600 --> 02:29:10.159 But enough to do it? 3037 02:29:10.500 --> 02:29:16.879 Well, there's 8,000 languages, and there's maybe 2,000. 3,000, let's 3038 02:29:17.340 --> 02:29:21.100 say 5,000 linguists in the whole world, and only a 3039 02:29:21.299 --> 02:29:23.219 small percentage of them want to do this kind of work. 3040 02:29:23.780 --> 02:29:25.340 The rest of them, most of them want to do 3041 02:29:25.409 --> 02:29:27.229 Chomsky's kind of work, where you sit at your desk 3042 02:29:27.649 --> 02:29:30.149 and you say, language has this property, and it must 3043 02:29:30.329 --> 02:29:34.170 also have this property. And so the rubber's never meeting 3044 02:29:34.209 --> 02:29:37.829 the road. I mean, if you can do your field 3045 02:29:37.850 --> 02:29:41.389 research on database, I shouldn't say that because that's what 3046 02:29:41.430 --> 02:29:43.690 my son does. He's also a linguist, and he grew 3047 02:29:43.729 --> 02:29:46.059 up in an Indian tribe And, you know, the Pitaha. 3048 02:29:46.139 --> 02:29:48.420 And he also did a dissertation on another tribe that 3049 02:29:48.440 --> 02:29:50.780 he learned to speak the language. But nowadays, he goes 3050 02:29:50.819 --> 02:29:54.659 through databases and comes up with statistical generalizations. And it's 3051 02:29:54.700 --> 02:29:58.340 pretty interesting. But he'll tell me flat out, he said, yeah, 3052 02:29:58.389 --> 02:30:00.809 I don't want to do that fieldwork anymore. That's really demanding, 3053 02:30:01.389 --> 02:30:03.729 even though he grew up there. So and that's the 3054 02:30:03.750 --> 02:30:04.549 way most people are. 3055 02:30:05.090 --> 02:30:10.069 How many more cultures that have completely different languages and 3056 02:30:10.110 --> 02:30:14.819 completely different sets of rules and structure? are out there 3057 02:30:14.879 --> 02:30:15.719 that we're not aware of? 3058 02:30:17.739 --> 02:30:21.819 Well, back in the 80s, they used to say there's 3059 02:30:21.840 --> 02:30:26.620 about 5,000 languages. So 20 years later, or 21 years later, 3060 02:30:26.659 --> 02:30:32.729 we're saying, or 31 years later, we're saying there are 8,000. 3061 02:30:32.729 --> 02:30:35.209 Languages die out at the rate of about one every 3062 02:30:35.270 --> 02:30:39.110 two weeks. So they're dying. And once they die, we 3063 02:30:39.129 --> 02:30:43.049 can never recover that information. But also languages are being born. 3064 02:30:43.750 --> 02:30:46.940 on a regular basis because you talk like who you 3065 02:30:46.959 --> 02:30:50.840 talk with. So why are Portuguese and Spanish separate languages? 3066 02:30:51.459 --> 02:30:54.340 Because you've got the Eber River and you've got natural 3067 02:30:54.360 --> 02:30:58.360 divides in that part of the Iberian Peninsula. And so 3068 02:30:58.399 --> 02:31:00.959 they stop talking to each other and so their speech diverges. 3069 02:31:01.000 --> 02:31:06.989 That's how Latin became French and Romanian and Germanic became English. 3070 02:31:07.409 --> 02:31:09.770 So they stop talking to each other. So as soon 3071 02:31:09.829 --> 02:31:13.899 as people stop talking, their language evolves. And they have 3072 02:31:13.920 --> 02:31:18.219 different languages. So British English and American English have evolved apart. 3073 02:31:18.739 --> 02:31:20.959 And yet at the same time, we have television and 3074 02:31:21.000 --> 02:31:25.440 movies and things that keeps them sort of together. But 3075 02:31:25.479 --> 02:31:28.600 if you don't have media and you don't have that, 3076 02:31:28.639 --> 02:31:33.000 then eventually they're not talking with each other at all 3077 02:31:33.020 --> 02:31:36.590 and they become different languages. And that's where most languages 3078 02:31:36.629 --> 02:31:36.969 come from. 3079 02:31:37.350 --> 02:31:40.909 Wow. And there's got to be a lot of these 3080 02:31:40.950 --> 02:31:42.969 tribes that aren't talking to each other. And how many 3081 02:31:42.989 --> 02:31:46.149 of these tribes have been investigated, and how many people 3082 02:31:46.170 --> 02:31:49.430 have been embedded? Are there tribes out there where no 3083 02:31:49.530 --> 02:31:52.590 one has ever examined a language, no one's ever embedded 3084 02:31:52.629 --> 02:31:53.729 themselves in their culture? 3085 02:31:55.389 --> 02:31:59.209 There probably are over 1,000 where no one's gone there, 3086 02:31:59.229 --> 02:32:02.790 but there are a couple of thousand where no scientist 3087 02:32:02.829 --> 02:32:05.270 has gone there to study their language or their culture. 3088 02:32:05.389 --> 02:32:06.219 A couple thousand. 3089 02:32:06.350 --> 02:32:08.840 Yeah, a couple thousand, I would say, if not more. 3090 02:32:08.860 --> 02:32:11.899 And they probably have completely different languages. 3091 02:32:12.219 --> 02:32:15.899 Yeah, you know, we're worried, and we should be, about 3092 02:32:15.940 --> 02:32:19.149 the disappearance of certain bird species and all these other 3093 02:32:19.190 --> 02:32:22.190 kinds of species. And we should be concerned about that. 3094 02:32:22.889 --> 02:32:26.250 But we're not concerned enough about the disappearance of these 3095 02:32:26.290 --> 02:32:30.260 languages and how the new languages are arising. And why 3096 02:32:30.299 --> 02:32:32.639 should we be concerned? Well, for one thing, every language 3097 02:32:33.399 --> 02:32:37.399 is like a library. It's a repository of information that 3098 02:32:37.500 --> 02:32:41.379 is lost when they switch to Portuguese. Because Portuguese doesn't 3099 02:32:41.420 --> 02:32:43.559 have all the same knowledge embedded in it. It doesn't 3100 02:32:43.579 --> 02:32:46.020 have the same way of talking about the world. There's 3101 02:32:46.059 --> 02:32:50.659 a lot that's missing. Every pitahã, every child, every woman, 3102 02:32:50.760 --> 02:32:54.500 every man knows the name of every species of plant 3103 02:32:54.639 --> 02:32:58.059 and animal in their environment. They will never just say tree. 3104 02:32:58.399 --> 02:33:00.739 Like I walked with the pitahã into the jungle and 3105 02:33:00.780 --> 02:33:03.219 they said, this is what we call this. And so 3106 02:33:03.260 --> 02:33:05.139 I write it down. What do you call it? Tree. 3107 02:33:05.159 --> 02:33:07.020 What do you call that over there? Tree. 3108 02:33:07.360 --> 02:33:07.500 Tree. 3109 02:33:08.180 --> 02:33:10.100 And what's that over there, tree? They said, you just 3110 02:33:10.120 --> 02:33:12.840 have one word for all these things. But they're calling 3111 02:33:12.860 --> 02:33:16.280 them by the species name. And I'm thinking, well, I 3112 02:33:16.299 --> 02:33:17.959 told them, I said, well, there's some Americans who do 3113 02:33:18.000 --> 02:33:19.700 know all the different names, but I'm just not one 3114 02:33:19.719 --> 02:33:21.840 of them. But they find it hard to believe that 3115 02:33:21.979 --> 02:33:25.620 any American could get by without that knowledge of their environment. 3116 02:33:27.120 --> 02:33:30.379 So when that language goes, we've lost the difference. So 3117 02:33:30.899 --> 02:33:33.399 a friend of mine did a study on how a 3118 02:33:33.440 --> 02:33:37.219 group in the Amazon classify birds. And they don't classify 3119 02:33:37.239 --> 02:33:41.670 them based on their anatomy like Western science. They classify 3120 02:33:41.690 --> 02:33:44.530 them based on what they eat. And so if you 3121 02:33:44.590 --> 02:33:47.010 know their classification, you know what all these birds eat. 3122 02:33:47.469 --> 02:33:49.389 And you know how to deal with those birds to 3123 02:33:49.450 --> 02:33:52.739 capture them or to follow them. And when that language 3124 02:33:52.799 --> 02:33:58.479 is gone, all that knowledge is gone. So it's like 3125 02:33:59.559 --> 02:34:02.280 the Library of Congress has been blown up or something 3126 02:34:02.440 --> 02:34:04.879 when you lose a language. And why do new languages 3127 02:34:04.920 --> 02:34:07.229 come into being? What are the conditions? And what does 3128 02:34:07.250 --> 02:34:09.489 all this mean for us being human beings? How do 3129 02:34:09.530 --> 02:34:12.329 we know ourselves better? How are we to understand our 3130 02:34:12.409 --> 02:34:16.090 species if we don't study all the different exemplars of 3131 02:34:16.149 --> 02:34:21.049 our species? And that's the challenge. And that's what keeps 3132 02:34:21.090 --> 02:34:23.690 the work exciting. But it also is what makes it 3133 02:34:23.739 --> 02:34:27.540 a challenge. Because you tell a really bright 25-year-old or 3134 02:34:27.559 --> 02:34:32.950 24-year-old PhD student, okay, now you have to take off 3135 02:34:32.969 --> 02:34:36.870 to the jungle for three years or four. And they're thinking, 3136 02:34:37.690 --> 02:34:40.090 I could get a job without doing that. You know, 3137 02:34:40.250 --> 02:34:41.799 I don't need to go spend four years in the 3138 02:34:41.819 --> 02:34:44.379 jungle to get a job. And, you know, professor's a 3139 02:34:44.420 --> 02:34:47.600 pretty cushy job. It doesn't pay well, but it's also, 3140 02:34:47.639 --> 02:34:50.040 it's not like, you know, it's not like real labor. 3141 02:34:50.440 --> 02:34:52.799 And I told, people tell me how hard professors work. 3142 02:34:52.840 --> 02:34:54.159 I said, yeah, well, you know, it does take a 3143 02:34:54.180 --> 02:34:55.959 lot of hours, but I'd rather do this than run 3144 02:34:55.979 --> 02:34:58.510 a jackhammer because I ran a jackhammer. And I'll tell you, 3145 02:34:58.530 --> 02:35:01.370 this is a lot easier than running a jackhammer. So, um, 3146 02:35:03.250 --> 02:35:04.909 But you go off to the field and you spend 3147 02:35:04.930 --> 02:35:08.450 this time. Ironically, anthropologists seem more prepared to do this 3148 02:35:08.489 --> 02:35:11.309 than linguists. And the other ironic thing is I know, 3149 02:35:11.790 --> 02:35:14.770 this is anecdote, I know more anthropologists who speak the 3150 02:35:14.809 --> 02:35:17.610 language fluently than I know linguists who speak the language fluently, 3151 02:35:17.649 --> 02:35:22.729 which I have to put down to the pernicious influence 3152 02:35:22.790 --> 02:35:25.909 of certain theories and linguistics that makes people think they 3153 02:35:25.950 --> 02:35:28.209 don't have to learn a language to know how it works. 3154 02:35:29.690 --> 02:35:31.670 And I tell people, when you're going off to do fieldwork, 3155 02:35:31.690 --> 02:35:33.430 I did write a field manual. And I say, the 3156 02:35:33.469 --> 02:35:36.149 first six months, just work on learning the language. Don't 3157 02:35:36.709 --> 02:35:39.829 take many notes. Take notes of words and stuff. So 3158 02:35:39.850 --> 02:35:41.430 I had a goal where I wanted to learn 10 3159 02:35:41.430 --> 02:35:44.030 new words a day. And I kept a little spiral 3160 02:35:44.829 --> 02:35:48.299 notebook clip in my belt buckle. And I would walk 3161 02:35:48.329 --> 02:35:50.219 around learning these things. And I would learn new words 3162 02:35:50.260 --> 02:35:53.239 and write those down. And then I would spend the 3163 02:35:53.319 --> 02:35:55.659 evening memorizing those words. And I would try them out 3164 02:35:55.719 --> 02:35:57.399 again the next day. And I'd try to make sentences 3165 02:35:57.440 --> 02:35:59.850 with them. And when people start laughing at you, you 3166 02:35:59.870 --> 02:36:02.129 know that I didn't get that right. And sometimes they 3167 02:36:02.170 --> 02:36:05.399 like to teach you dirty words, right? They think that's hilarious. 3168 02:36:05.420 --> 02:36:09.340 You know, you'll ask, so then I, you know, how 3169 02:36:09.639 --> 02:36:12.200 do you learn the words for genitals, for example? That's 3170 02:36:12.219 --> 02:36:14.459 kind of an embarrassing thing if you stop and think 3171 02:36:14.500 --> 02:36:17.260 about it. So I started to ask the guy, I said, 3172 02:36:17.280 --> 02:36:18.559 what do you call that? You know, I pointed to 3173 02:36:18.600 --> 02:36:22.629 his dick and he said, And he calls, you know, 3174 02:36:22.649 --> 02:36:23.489 he says, I'm not going to tell you, but he 3175 02:36:23.530 --> 02:36:25.829 calls a little boy over who's naked, and he shows 3176 02:36:25.870 --> 02:36:27.229 me every part of his body. And he says, you 3177 02:36:27.250 --> 02:36:29.469 call this this and this that and this that. And 3178 02:36:29.510 --> 02:36:32.770 then he says, but the names change once they start 3179 02:36:32.809 --> 02:36:37.510 to grow hair. So penis as a boy is different 3180 02:36:37.530 --> 02:36:40.250 from penis as a man, and vagina as a girl 3181 02:36:40.329 --> 02:36:43.350 is different from vagina as a woman. And so, you know, 3182 02:36:43.370 --> 02:36:47.579 how do you get those words? You've got to count 3183 02:36:47.620 --> 02:36:48.799 on close friendships, right? 3184 02:36:51.399 --> 02:36:53.079 Like I said at the beginning of this, man, you've 3185 02:36:53.100 --> 02:36:57.620 had a fascinating life. You really have. It's very, very interesting. 3186 02:36:58.000 --> 02:37:01.100 I really appreciate you sharing everything today. It was really, 3187 02:37:01.379 --> 02:37:01.879 really fun. 3188 02:37:02.500 --> 02:37:03.559 Thank you very much for having me. 3189 02:37:03.559 --> 02:37:08.889 I enjoyed it. Jamie, pull up his book. Well, books, 3190 02:37:09.020 --> 02:37:13.670 I should say. This one, Daniel Everett, Don't Sleep, There 3191 02:37:13.709 --> 02:37:20.299 Are Snakes. The Life and Language... In the Amazon jungle, 3192 02:37:20.459 --> 02:37:21.399 Amazonian jungle. 3193 02:37:21.840 --> 02:37:23.889 That's what they say to each other each night before 3194 02:37:23.930 --> 02:37:27.260 they go to bed. Don't sleep, there are snakes. 3195 02:37:30.379 --> 02:37:32.000 Amazing. Thank you very much. 3196 02:37:32.100 --> 02:37:32.989 Thank you so much for having me. 3197 02:37:33.069 --> 02:37:34.690 It was awesome. Bye, everybody.