WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.120 --> 00:00:02.080 Oh hi, Hey, it's still your brother in law who 2 00:00:02.120 --> 00:00:04.080 rais his coffee beans, but in a cool way. 3 00:00:04.120 --> 00:00:05.759 Ali word, And not only is this. 4 00:00:05.719 --> 00:00:08.560 A day late, baby, but also this is the bonus 5 00:00:08.640 --> 00:00:12.119 episode that I promised you last week. So what I 6 00:00:12.160 --> 00:00:16.960 turned around the neuropathology episode on concussions last week so fast. 7 00:00:17.199 --> 00:00:19.839 It just gave me additional whiplash. So I came to 8 00:00:19.879 --> 00:00:21.559 my senses and I said, word, go back to bed, 9 00:00:22.039 --> 00:00:24.440 sleep a little more. You bashed your skull and that's 10 00:00:24.480 --> 00:00:27.879 a great excuse use it. So here is the CRISP 11 00:00:27.960 --> 00:00:32.200 Sunny follow up episode about concussions, about mTBI TBI CTE 12 00:00:32.399 --> 00:00:35.560 in the natural world, in animals. And if you're like, 13 00:00:35.600 --> 00:00:38.520 I don't know what any of those acronyms are, they 14 00:00:38.520 --> 00:00:41.439 don't make sense. And you're also like, wait, dude, you 15 00:00:41.520 --> 00:00:45.439 recently sustained a severe hospital grade concussion, then you're going 16 00:00:45.479 --> 00:00:48.640 to want to be be mosey. Back to the neuropathology 17 00:00:48.640 --> 00:00:51.520 episode from last week. It's a really, really great one. 18 00:00:51.679 --> 00:00:53.679 Lots of asides about why I ended up in an 19 00:00:53.719 --> 00:00:57.240 ambulance a few weeks ago and consequently why this episode 20 00:00:57.280 --> 00:01:00.200 is two days late. TBIs man, no joke. So this 21 00:01:00.240 --> 00:01:03.240 ologist reached out after mine because she's a researcher in 22 00:01:03.280 --> 00:01:07.480 the field and in the lab, and because severe neurological 23 00:01:07.519 --> 00:01:09.599 damage like CTE can only really be. 24 00:01:09.599 --> 00:01:11.000 Detected on autopsy. 25 00:01:11.400 --> 00:01:15.519 Thus it's a very controversial diagnosis in living people. A 26 00:01:15.560 --> 00:01:18.359 lot of folks butting heads about it, So she studies 27 00:01:18.760 --> 00:01:22.760 butting heads about it in bighorn sheep and musk oxen 28 00:01:22.840 --> 00:01:25.079 and all kinds of stuff. So she got her undergrad 29 00:01:25.079 --> 00:01:29.079 degree in the biology of organisms, populations and ecosystems in France. 30 00:01:29.640 --> 00:01:33.280 She went to Antwerp and Vienna for her masters in. 31 00:01:33.319 --> 00:01:36.200 Comparative vertebrate morphology. 32 00:01:35.879 --> 00:01:39.280 And then went and got a ding dang doctorate in 33 00:01:39.400 --> 00:01:44.280 evolutionary biology in Zurich, studying toothwear on animals. And we 34 00:01:44.319 --> 00:01:46.920 recorded this a week or so ago, and she was 35 00:01:47.159 --> 00:01:50.480 rounding out her postdoc in the lab of your favorite 36 00:01:50.519 --> 00:01:53.840 functional morphologist, doctor Joey Eidenberg i' Mount Sinai in New 37 00:01:53.920 --> 00:01:56.840 York City. Great episode, I'll link it on my website, 38 00:01:56.959 --> 00:01:59.400 But her postdoc is wrapping up, so use the links 39 00:01:59.400 --> 00:02:01.599 in the show notes to also reach out to her. 40 00:02:01.719 --> 00:02:04.879 If you are hiring someone rad because she is. You 41 00:02:04.920 --> 00:02:06.439 can also use the links in the show notes to 42 00:02:06.519 --> 00:02:09.719 join patreon dot com slash Ologies, where for a buck 43 00:02:09.719 --> 00:02:11.919 a month you usually get to send questions for me 44 00:02:11.919 --> 00:02:13.680 to ask ahead of time, except for this one, because 45 00:02:14.199 --> 00:02:17.159 like a goat brain on a lab slab, it was 46 00:02:17.159 --> 00:02:19.759 supposed to be all cut up and used for last 47 00:02:19.759 --> 00:02:22.879 week's episode. But whatever, it was weird and fun and 48 00:02:22.919 --> 00:02:25.360 you deserve to hear the whole thing, so for zero dollars. Also, 49 00:02:25.360 --> 00:02:28.280 you can support the show and my very fragile sense 50 00:02:28.319 --> 00:02:30.240 of self by leaving a review. 51 00:02:30.719 --> 00:02:31.479 I read all of. 52 00:02:31.439 --> 00:02:36.120 Them, and here's a still moist, freshy one. It's gross 53 00:02:36.439 --> 00:02:39.520 from someone by the name of Random Mattox who wrote 54 00:02:39.520 --> 00:02:43.039 the review. I gobble up almost every episode like a 55 00:02:43.120 --> 00:02:46.800 raccoon hits marshmallows. Also thank you to the reviewer who 56 00:02:46.800 --> 00:02:49.840 said that their whole family watches Brainchild and Listenologies and 57 00:02:49.879 --> 00:02:50.639 to get well soon. 58 00:02:50.919 --> 00:02:53.360 They wrote please take care of yourself, Alley, which. 59 00:02:53.159 --> 00:02:56.039 Was so sweet that made me cry, and it was 60 00:02:56.080 --> 00:02:59.080 signed huge Fangs, and I don't know if they meant 61 00:02:59.159 --> 00:03:04.080 huge fans or not, but huge fangs honestly better more fitting. 62 00:03:04.439 --> 00:03:06.280 Let's talk about while we're. 63 00:03:06.120 --> 00:03:10.439 On it, animals showing off by acquiring brain damage. 64 00:03:10.560 --> 00:03:11.360 Let's get into it. 65 00:03:11.439 --> 00:03:15.840 We're going to talk about covid neuropathology, So get ready 66 00:03:15.840 --> 00:03:19.919 for the life of a retired ox, the sliced and 67 00:03:20.000 --> 00:03:24.639 stained brain, How to build a better helmet using sheep skulls, 68 00:03:25.120 --> 00:03:29.439 and how not to do that. Twitter, Flame Wars, Wild 69 00:03:29.639 --> 00:03:33.520 boar Wars, How a bunch of tangled proteins can really 70 00:03:33.520 --> 00:03:36.919 mess up a melon? What a melon actually is? And 71 00:03:37.159 --> 00:03:40.719 see Creature Gossip and the Coolest Cooler you will ever 72 00:03:40.840 --> 00:03:46.919 crack open with vertebrate morphologist, evolutionary biologist, and bovid neuropathologist 73 00:03:47.360 --> 00:04:12.240 Doctor Nicole Ackerman's. Oh my gosh, doctor doctor Headbut hello, 74 00:04:14.039 --> 00:04:14.879 hi Elly. 75 00:04:15.240 --> 00:04:17.839 It's doctor Nicole Ackerman's. I go by she her, but 76 00:04:17.879 --> 00:04:18.680 everyone calls me. 77 00:04:18.680 --> 00:04:20.399 Nikki doctor head, but it is. 78 00:04:21.000 --> 00:04:23.759 So tell me a little bit about how you ended 79 00:04:23.839 --> 00:04:27.480 up in I guess would this be functional morphology? Would 80 00:04:27.519 --> 00:04:31.199 this be like traumatic osteology? What would you call this field? 81 00:04:31.839 --> 00:04:35.399 So I'm in my post doc I'm combining functional morphology 82 00:04:35.439 --> 00:04:38.360 and neuroscience. So the functional morphology part is the skull, 83 00:04:38.879 --> 00:04:41.879 horns and head and movement part, and the neuroscience part 84 00:04:41.920 --> 00:04:44.480 is the actual cellular brain damage part. 85 00:04:45.360 --> 00:04:48.000 And how do you even do this? 86 00:04:48.160 --> 00:04:49.879 Work. Do you have to go out in the field. 87 00:04:49.920 --> 00:04:52.759 Do you have to find cancussed big horn sheep? 88 00:04:52.800 --> 00:04:53.639 How do you start? 89 00:04:54.399 --> 00:04:57.399 Yeah, so I asked myself the same question because obviously 90 00:04:57.519 --> 00:04:59.720 this no one kind of looked at this before. A 91 00:04:59.720 --> 00:05:02.439 lot of people are like, bighorn sheep don't get concussions. 92 00:05:02.680 --> 00:05:05.079 Turns out no one's checked, so I figured out I 93 00:05:05.120 --> 00:05:08.079 should probably go check. And unfortunately I started all this 94 00:05:08.120 --> 00:05:10.240 in twenty twenty, so there was no field for me. 95 00:05:11.040 --> 00:05:14.720 But I had about a month where I started in January, 96 00:05:14.759 --> 00:05:16.439 so I had a few months before the pandemic to 97 00:05:16.480 --> 00:05:19.279 call up everyone I could possibly get a number for it, 98 00:05:19.360 --> 00:05:21.480 fish and wildlife in any state where there was a 99 00:05:21.480 --> 00:05:24.160 big horn sheep and say hey, if you have a 100 00:05:24.160 --> 00:05:25.439 dead sheep, can you send it to. 101 00:05:25.399 --> 00:05:28.720 Me totally normal so I can look. 102 00:05:28.600 --> 00:05:32.360 At their brain. And I actually got like six sheepheads 103 00:05:32.959 --> 00:05:35.639 from them, and they're all like natural deaths or like 104 00:05:35.720 --> 00:05:37.920 cougar kills, or one of them broke its legs so 105 00:05:37.920 --> 00:05:40.439 they had to euthanize it, so no sheep were killed 106 00:05:40.480 --> 00:05:41.720 for the purpose of my study. 107 00:05:42.160 --> 00:05:42.560 Nice. 108 00:05:42.639 --> 00:05:45.120 So the neuroscience part, they have a big walk in 109 00:05:45.240 --> 00:05:47.879 fridge full of random animal brains, and they happen to 110 00:05:47.920 --> 00:05:50.720 have Muskox brains in there, so I just added those 111 00:05:50.720 --> 00:05:51.399 to my studies. 112 00:05:51.439 --> 00:05:56.000 Well, and what have you found looking at those brains? 113 00:05:56.040 --> 00:05:57.879 Do you have to put them in an MRI in 114 00:05:57.959 --> 00:05:58.920 a CT scan? 115 00:06:00.319 --> 00:06:00.600 Yeah? 116 00:06:00.639 --> 00:06:04.839 So, actually, first we did MRI scan them, because if 117 00:06:04.839 --> 00:06:07.879 you have a very very bad brain trauma, you might 118 00:06:07.920 --> 00:06:11.120 get regional shrinkage of different parts of your brain. I 119 00:06:11.120 --> 00:06:13.560 mean at that point in a human you have behavioral problems. 120 00:06:13.560 --> 00:06:15.839 But I just wanted to first check, okay, is the 121 00:06:15.839 --> 00:06:18.720 brain intact on the MRI. All of our MRIs were clean. 122 00:06:18.920 --> 00:06:22.240 And if you listened to the neuropathology episode last week, 123 00:06:22.279 --> 00:06:25.759 you might remember that even though I did concuss myself 124 00:06:25.959 --> 00:06:29.279 falling down a flight of stairs and then collapsed and 125 00:06:29.319 --> 00:06:33.160 then convulsed and then collapsed again, my CT scan was 126 00:06:33.639 --> 00:06:37.959 clean and an MRI would have been totally fine. Look 127 00:06:38.000 --> 00:06:41.439 in a plus two. So those hospital machine big boys 128 00:06:41.480 --> 00:06:46.360 are helpful for seeing life threatening emergency brain bleeds, but 129 00:06:46.600 --> 00:06:50.160 they don't tell the full microscopic story. For that, you 130 00:06:50.240 --> 00:06:53.800 need rest, and you also to see it need either 131 00:06:54.519 --> 00:06:58.079 psychic wizard or a scientist with a hacksaw. 132 00:06:58.639 --> 00:07:02.199 Then once we had our pictures, I could go cut 133 00:07:02.279 --> 00:07:04.279 up the brain and take out a piece where I 134 00:07:04.439 --> 00:07:06.560 thought that there would be maybe some trauma if it 135 00:07:06.639 --> 00:07:09.040 was even there at all, and look at that under 136 00:07:09.040 --> 00:07:09.759 the microscope. 137 00:07:10.480 --> 00:07:11.199 What did you find? 138 00:07:11.600 --> 00:07:12.319 Okay, here we go. 139 00:07:12.600 --> 00:07:14.879 So it was a very long process. I don't want 140 00:07:14.920 --> 00:07:17.120 to make it sound like simple, like it took me 141 00:07:17.160 --> 00:07:20.600 a year to first troubleshoot the technique to stain the 142 00:07:20.639 --> 00:07:23.720 bighorn cheap brain because surprise, surprise, no one had stained 143 00:07:23.720 --> 00:07:27.759 a bighorn sheep brain before. And it uses immunohistochemistry where 144 00:07:27.800 --> 00:07:31.079 looking for a certain type of protein that kind of 145 00:07:31.120 --> 00:07:33.720 shows up when your brain gets damaged. And so I 146 00:07:33.759 --> 00:07:37.399 had to troubleshoot this this immuno histochemistry technique for about 147 00:07:37.399 --> 00:07:42.120 a year, but I figured it out eventually. This paper 148 00:07:42.160 --> 00:07:44.399 is actually currently under review, so it's a little bit 149 00:07:44.480 --> 00:07:49.000 breaking news, but it's gonna come out eventually. I found 150 00:07:49.199 --> 00:07:53.279 a few neurons. Actually, first in the musk oxen, which 151 00:07:53.319 --> 00:07:56.480 also butt their heads extremely hard, there were dead neurons 152 00:07:56.600 --> 00:08:00.279 and there were some sort of clumped up dendrites or 153 00:08:00.360 --> 00:08:03.879 like the neuron tails. And first of all, I was 154 00:08:03.959 --> 00:08:05.680 just excited to see just one of these. I mean, 155 00:08:05.680 --> 00:08:07.839 it's beautiful. It's like a big spider web under the 156 00:08:07.879 --> 00:08:09.480 microscope and it was perfectly stained. 157 00:08:09.480 --> 00:08:10.279 I was so happy. 158 00:08:10.879 --> 00:08:14.360 Wow, it takes a special and divine person to get 159 00:08:14.399 --> 00:08:16.519 giddy for musk ox head trauma. 160 00:08:16.639 --> 00:08:17.480 And we found her. 161 00:08:17.879 --> 00:08:21.879 And when she described the spider web of dead neurons, 162 00:08:21.920 --> 00:08:24.680 I was like, yes, spiderweb patterns. I think I know 163 00:08:24.720 --> 00:08:28.120 what she's talking about. She's probably talking about these subrachnoid 164 00:08:28.199 --> 00:08:30.680 hemorrhages that I read about. So I went to go 165 00:08:30.680 --> 00:08:33.799 see what they look like stained under a microscope, and 166 00:08:34.279 --> 00:08:38.000 it turns out she was not talking about subarrachnoid hemorrhages 167 00:08:38.120 --> 00:08:41.120 at all. Those are totally different things. They both just 168 00:08:41.159 --> 00:08:44.879 happen to look spiderweby and the iracnoid layer is a 169 00:08:45.000 --> 00:08:48.080 layer under the skull between the brain and there. It's 170 00:08:48.159 --> 00:08:51.159 kind of webby and it houses fluid that floats your brain. 171 00:08:51.519 --> 00:08:54.360 She wasn't talking about that at all. So a bleed 172 00:08:54.440 --> 00:08:55.559 there is what. 173 00:08:55.720 --> 00:08:56.799 CT scans are looking for. 174 00:08:56.879 --> 00:09:00.799 But what doctor Ackermans is talking about is zooming in 175 00:09:00.360 --> 00:09:03.639 and in way past the scope of a CT scan 176 00:09:04.120 --> 00:09:08.960 to see little knots of insoluble tau proteins. 177 00:09:09.399 --> 00:09:12.159 And then you know, after that one single one. I 178 00:09:12.240 --> 00:09:16.200 kind of went further and did a really large amount 179 00:09:16.240 --> 00:09:19.320 of stains and counted them all by hand to see 180 00:09:19.360 --> 00:09:21.879 if there was sort of grouping of these dead neurons 181 00:09:22.039 --> 00:09:26.320 or dying neurons in certain areas, because if it was 182 00:09:26.480 --> 00:09:30.320 just like Alzheimer's, it could be sort of more dying 183 00:09:30.360 --> 00:09:32.960 neurons on the surface, going deeper and deeper as the 184 00:09:33.000 --> 00:09:37.519 disease gets worse. But if it's traumatic injury, the forces 185 00:09:37.600 --> 00:09:41.120 that are applied to the head when there's an injury 186 00:09:41.480 --> 00:09:44.159 kind of go into the folds of the brain and 187 00:09:44.320 --> 00:09:46.679 rip the cells at the bottom of these folds. And 188 00:09:46.720 --> 00:09:50.000 I actually found groups of they're called neurofibrillly tangles, but 189 00:09:50.399 --> 00:09:53.159 pathological neurons at the bottoms of these folds, and so 190 00:09:53.240 --> 00:09:55.960 that showed for sure that it was brain trauma. 191 00:09:56.000 --> 00:10:00.919 Actually, so after a life of headbutting or tackling or 192 00:10:01.120 --> 00:10:04.679 just thumping your skull on stuff, I guess, like me, 193 00:10:05.159 --> 00:10:10.039 those tiny tube filled towels ball up and Nikki says 194 00:10:10.039 --> 00:10:13.720 that she's finding them kind of like you would necklaces 195 00:10:14.039 --> 00:10:17.240 at the bottom of your purse. Just these delicate clocks 196 00:10:17.320 --> 00:10:23.039 of problems. But why, why and how do you think 197 00:10:23.279 --> 00:10:31.240 evolution kind of selected for this behavior in especially breeding males, 198 00:10:32.440 --> 00:10:34.759 even though it might lead to brain trauma. 199 00:10:35.440 --> 00:10:38.039 Yeah, this is my question to myself as well. I 200 00:10:38.080 --> 00:10:43.679 have some theories. I guess you know, the goal of life. 201 00:10:44.039 --> 00:10:45.879 This is gonna seem really simple. But the goal of 202 00:10:46.200 --> 00:10:49.039 life is just sex. It's reproduction, right. 203 00:10:49.000 --> 00:10:53.320 Yeah, Okay, maybe not you personally, but mother nature is 204 00:10:53.399 --> 00:10:56.600 just a tunnel vision, horny ghost inside each and every 205 00:10:56.600 --> 00:10:57.080 one of us. 206 00:10:57.799 --> 00:11:00.600 So once you get to that point, if you're able 207 00:11:00.639 --> 00:11:03.480 to reproduce and pass on your genetic material, if you 208 00:11:03.559 --> 00:11:06.200 have dementia or if you're a bit you know, damage 209 00:11:06.200 --> 00:11:10.440 in the brain, it doesn't really matter anymore. So one 210 00:11:10.440 --> 00:11:14.360 of my theories is just that, well, it doesn't matter. 211 00:11:14.399 --> 00:11:16.559 They don't live that long anyway. They might not develop 212 00:11:16.600 --> 00:11:18.960 dementia or Alzheimer's like we do in relation to these 213 00:11:19.039 --> 00:11:21.320 kind of illnesses. And I'm sorry, I know you just 214 00:11:21.360 --> 00:11:23.320 got a concussion, so I want to freak you out, 215 00:11:24.120 --> 00:11:26.399 although I'm sure the other experts you talk to freaky 216 00:11:26.399 --> 00:11:30.320 out enough already. But yeah, my theory is that maybe, 217 00:11:30.399 --> 00:11:32.120 first of all, maybe they don't live long enough to 218 00:11:32.200 --> 00:11:35.440 actually have really bad side effects. And second of all, 219 00:11:35.559 --> 00:11:38.039 maybe it just doesn't matter because like their life is 220 00:11:38.080 --> 00:11:43.679 not really really complex. I mean no disrespect to bighorn cheep. 221 00:11:43.720 --> 00:11:47.039 I love them, but they eat, they you know, evade predators, 222 00:11:47.080 --> 00:11:49.559 and they reproduce, so you know, they don't need to 223 00:11:49.600 --> 00:11:51.480 do puzzles and memory games. 224 00:11:52.720 --> 00:11:55.480 What about How do you think that those type of 225 00:11:55.519 --> 00:11:59.279 neurological impacts. How do you think it does affect them? 226 00:11:59.559 --> 00:12:02.519 Do you think that there's any loss of coordination or balance? 227 00:12:02.720 --> 00:12:06.600 You know, I would love to know it's We barely 228 00:12:06.679 --> 00:12:09.639 have a behavioral scale for mice, like it's established in mice, 229 00:12:09.679 --> 00:12:14.000 but almost no other species has a scientific behavioral scale, 230 00:12:14.000 --> 00:12:16.120 so we don't have a baseline to say this is 231 00:12:16.200 --> 00:12:19.519 normal behavior, and then based on that, what is different behavior. 232 00:12:20.519 --> 00:12:23.080 The only sort of hint that I have that something 233 00:12:23.159 --> 00:12:25.919 might be different is when I talk to the folks 234 00:12:25.960 --> 00:12:29.240 at the Musko's farm in Alaska. They have a bowl 235 00:12:29.360 --> 00:12:32.200 muskox who's like twenty seven years old, which is like 236 00:12:32.679 --> 00:12:35.840 twice his normal lifespan, and apparently he just hangs out 237 00:12:35.840 --> 00:12:39.720 in his field and stares into the distance all day. Okay, buddy, 238 00:12:40.120 --> 00:12:42.840 So I'm guessing there might be a little bit of 239 00:12:43.200 --> 00:12:45.720 something going on there, But I would love to have, 240 00:12:45.840 --> 00:12:48.039 you know, someone go out into the field and observe 241 00:12:48.120 --> 00:12:50.120 and see if they're you know, over the years, if 242 00:12:50.159 --> 00:12:53.759 they act differently. I'm assuming it would. It would show 243 00:12:53.840 --> 00:12:56.240 like in humans, you'd kind of have memory issues, you'd 244 00:12:56.279 --> 00:13:00.759 have yeah, loss of coordination. But one thing is for 245 00:13:00.840 --> 00:13:04.120 sure is that if they had a human head, they 246 00:13:04.559 --> 00:13:09.080 would not survive. It is actually their big skulls and 247 00:13:09.159 --> 00:13:11.840 horns that help. Even though they do get brain trauma, 248 00:13:11.879 --> 00:13:14.559 it helps protect them for long enough. 249 00:13:15.080 --> 00:13:20.399 So horns and skulls ultimate helmets for hoofed and cud 250 00:13:20.519 --> 00:13:22.960 chewing pugilists. 251 00:13:22.240 --> 00:13:25.559 Who are motivated by sweet love making. Are there animals 252 00:13:25.559 --> 00:13:27.120 that aren't ruminants. 253 00:13:27.200 --> 00:13:28.600 That do that? Oh my god? 254 00:13:29.120 --> 00:13:32.480 Yes, Okay, so exciting, It's really exciting. Okay, this is 255 00:13:32.480 --> 00:13:34.080 going to blow your mind. So I actually wrote a 256 00:13:34.080 --> 00:13:36.840 little bit of a review about this last year during quarantine. 257 00:13:37.320 --> 00:13:42.200 So wales wal's headbutt what? We're pretty sure? Yeah, And 258 00:13:42.320 --> 00:13:46.039 like almost every group of whales has been either observed 259 00:13:46.159 --> 00:13:49.080 or just written about headbutting. The review that I publish 260 00:13:49.120 --> 00:13:51.519 has a picture of two bottlenosed dolphins jumping out of 261 00:13:51.519 --> 00:13:53.240 the air and headbutting each other mid air. 262 00:13:54.080 --> 00:13:55.440 What the fuck? 263 00:13:56.240 --> 00:14:01.159 So that blew my mind that had just suffered a blow. 264 00:14:01.480 --> 00:14:05.039 So a little more on that. What other ocean animals 265 00:14:05.320 --> 00:14:08.840 being each other with their literal melons? A melon apparently 266 00:14:08.960 --> 00:14:11.639 is a squishy part of a whalehead. And we're going 267 00:14:11.679 --> 00:14:13.200 to get to that in one second, but first we 268 00:14:13.240 --> 00:14:15.159 have to take a really really quick break from our sponsors, 269 00:14:15.240 --> 00:14:18.360 who allow us to donate to a cause of Nikki's choosing, 270 00:14:18.399 --> 00:14:20.720 And she selected the Society for Women's Health Research, and 271 00:14:20.759 --> 00:14:24.480 she said, as a biologist, I'm constantly running into illnesses 272 00:14:24.519 --> 00:14:27.960 that are poorly researched in women, if even studied at all. 273 00:14:28.159 --> 00:14:31.039 Concussions fall into that category, so I hope it's fitting. 274 00:14:31.200 --> 00:14:34.720 So the Society for Women's Health Research promotes research on 275 00:14:34.799 --> 00:14:38.720 biological sex differences and disease to improve women's health through 276 00:14:38.759 --> 00:14:41.919 science and policy and education. So thank you for helping 277 00:14:42.000 --> 00:14:44.919 us slam some cash into their hands. There's more at 278 00:14:45.120 --> 00:14:47.799 SWHR dot org and I'll linked in the show notes. 279 00:14:47.919 --> 00:14:48.799 So thanks sponsors. 280 00:14:50.240 --> 00:14:53.080 Mom, why did I call it Scottish cheese? 281 00:14:53.240 --> 00:14:55.840 Scottish cheese honey? And I'm not sure. 282 00:14:55.759 --> 00:14:59.039 Did the dogs in other countries speak different languages? 283 00:14:59.240 --> 00:14:59.600 Yeah? 284 00:15:00.000 --> 00:15:00.399 I think so? 285 00:15:00.720 --> 00:15:01.879 When when we get there. 286 00:15:01.960 --> 00:15:03.919 Well, we've got to fix the car first. But there's 287 00:15:03.960 --> 00:15:07.039 someone coming to help us. Is it the man from Geneva? 288 00:15:07.080 --> 00:15:10.759 Not Geneva, he's from a Viva. Oh, there's the van. 289 00:15:10.840 --> 00:15:11.000 Now. 290 00:15:11.360 --> 00:15:14.360 For car insurance with breakdown rescue, it takes a Viva 291 00:15:14.639 --> 00:15:18.080 visit a Viva dotta e to say fifteen percent acceptance criteria, 292 00:15:18.159 --> 00:15:20.519 terms and conditions apply. Minimum premium of three hundred and 293 00:15:20.519 --> 00:15:23.519 ten year Oh, fifteen percent discant applies to new policies BottomLine. 294 00:15:23.559 --> 00:15:26.360 See Aviva dotta E for details. Car insurance is underwritten 295 00:15:26.360 --> 00:15:29.240 by Aviva Insurance Arland dak Aviva Direct Arlund Limited is 296 00:15:29.279 --> 00:15:30.919 regulated by the Central Bank of Ireland. 297 00:15:32.360 --> 00:15:36.120 Okay, back into it. Dolphins and whales who butt each 298 00:15:36.120 --> 00:15:37.120 other in the head. 299 00:15:37.200 --> 00:15:38.919 Like they're in a vin Diesel movie. 300 00:15:39.039 --> 00:15:42.679 So in her paper, doctor Ackermans cites that the ramming 301 00:15:42.720 --> 00:15:48.360 behavior has been observed in sperm whales, nar walls, humpback whales, 302 00:15:48.639 --> 00:15:52.919 bottlenose whales, bottlenose dolphins, and orcas, and she writes quote 303 00:15:52.960 --> 00:15:56.480 in pilot whales, unusual skull structures may even act as 304 00:15:56.480 --> 00:16:01.919 a form of antlers inside the head. What so we 305 00:16:02.000 --> 00:16:07.240 need so many satology episodes given that these things evolved 306 00:16:07.360 --> 00:16:11.320 out of the water to dry land, hung around on 307 00:16:11.399 --> 00:16:15.039 dry land, hoofed around, romped around, munching on grass, and 308 00:16:15.120 --> 00:16:17.440 maybe like deer eating birds. 309 00:16:18.080 --> 00:16:19.919 Michael, he ate a bird. 310 00:16:20.159 --> 00:16:23.559 And then they bounced back to the water and they modded. 311 00:16:23.759 --> 00:16:28.000 They're already motted fins from legs back to flippers, and 312 00:16:28.399 --> 00:16:31.399 dolphins have bigger brains than us, four to five times 313 00:16:31.559 --> 00:16:35.039 larger than we'd expect them to be for their size, which, 314 00:16:35.080 --> 00:16:36.559 by the way, did you know that dolphins can be 315 00:16:36.559 --> 00:16:38.759 like eleven feet long? I feel like no one has 316 00:16:38.799 --> 00:16:41.679 ever told me that anyway relative to that body size. 317 00:16:41.759 --> 00:16:45.320 They are the second most encephalized animals on the planet, 318 00:16:45.519 --> 00:16:48.320 which is a sentence I read recently that was written 319 00:16:48.360 --> 00:16:51.440 by the most encephalized species on the planet. 320 00:16:51.519 --> 00:16:56.159 But yes, why the headbutting? Why why? Why? Why? 321 00:16:56.960 --> 00:16:59.360 And one of the ideas is that this is maybe 322 00:16:59.440 --> 00:17:03.080 a conserved practice between all of the audiodactyls, because whales, 323 00:17:03.120 --> 00:17:06.759 you know, are part of the ardiodactyl hoofed animal family. 324 00:17:07.519 --> 00:17:08.559 So that's super exciting. 325 00:17:10.119 --> 00:17:12.799 Why do you want any idea why they might do that? 326 00:17:13.279 --> 00:17:15.200 Same as with the big horn sheep and the other 327 00:17:15.519 --> 00:17:19.599 male animals. It's fighting for females and showing like which 328 00:17:19.960 --> 00:17:23.119 male has the superior genetics to be able to survive 329 00:17:23.200 --> 00:17:26.759 that basically wild, there's a type of wild forest hog 330 00:17:26.960 --> 00:17:29.799 that headbutts and it makes a crazy loud noise, and 331 00:17:30.200 --> 00:17:34.319 there are hornbills. They fly into each other's heads in 332 00:17:34.519 --> 00:17:36.640 mid air. So I wanted to name those guys because 333 00:17:36.640 --> 00:17:37.240 it's pretty cool. 334 00:17:38.279 --> 00:17:42.119 So Nicky's twenty twenty one paper is titled Unconventional Animal 335 00:17:42.119 --> 00:17:47.279 Models for Traumatic Brain Injury and Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathy, and 336 00:17:47.359 --> 00:17:50.160 in it she notes that this clash has been described 337 00:17:50.240 --> 00:17:54.200 by other researchers watching hogs and it produces a loud 338 00:17:54.400 --> 00:17:58.359 cracking sound, and she even included and cited a YouTube link, 339 00:17:58.480 --> 00:18:02.000 And naturally, I did as fast as my fingers allowed, 340 00:18:02.319 --> 00:18:06.319 and let me set the scene. Okay, We open on 341 00:18:06.359 --> 00:18:11.160 a springtime hillside serving as a verdant arena for two 342 00:18:11.200 --> 00:18:16.519 shaggy tusked contenders. They look like a cross between a 343 00:18:16.599 --> 00:18:19.799 farm pig and o war hog, but also wearing a 344 00:18:19.839 --> 00:18:22.799 Gillie suit, and they scratch at the soil beneath them 345 00:18:23.640 --> 00:18:27.279 and then run at each other's skulls over and over, 346 00:18:27.400 --> 00:18:30.000 and the weirdest part is that their tails are wagging 347 00:18:30.599 --> 00:18:32.680 so much. And I don't know if that just means 348 00:18:32.680 --> 00:18:36.400 they're excited or amped up, or if they love it. Whatever, 349 00:18:36.519 --> 00:18:39.400 They're relentless. And in her paper, Nikki writes quote on 350 00:18:39.519 --> 00:18:42.799 rare occasions, these head clashes can result in skull fractures 351 00:18:42.799 --> 00:18:46.640 and even death, raising the question of the cost that 352 00:18:46.680 --> 00:18:51.640 these fights take on the hog's neuro anatomy. Perhaps, she continues, 353 00:18:51.799 --> 00:18:55.640 similarly to the thick fat pad found between a sheep's horns, 354 00:18:55.880 --> 00:18:59.240 the giant forest hogs facial pads serve both as a 355 00:18:59.279 --> 00:19:03.240 means of protection and as a sexual signal. So in 356 00:19:03.279 --> 00:19:07.640 the wild, with a fatty, sexy brain cushion and some 357 00:19:07.720 --> 00:19:12.599 bony helmets, individuals prove their merit before a hopefully receptive 358 00:19:12.640 --> 00:19:16.799 and I guess ovulating audience. So next time you're out 359 00:19:16.839 --> 00:19:20.559 there and you're witnessing a soggy, beer soaked kerfuffle at 360 00:19:20.559 --> 00:19:23.680 a bar, just be glad no one in there is 361 00:19:23.759 --> 00:19:25.720 growing knives out of their temples. 362 00:19:26.079 --> 00:19:27.960 Can get real gnarley. 363 00:19:28.279 --> 00:19:30.640 I mean, is it so impossible for you to watch 364 00:19:30.640 --> 00:19:32.640 like a boxing match or like a UFC match with 365 00:19:32.720 --> 00:19:33.200 friends and not? 366 00:19:33.359 --> 00:19:37.359 Yes, I cringe every time something happens, And because every 367 00:19:37.440 --> 00:19:40.599 time you get a concussion or a brain injury. It's 368 00:19:40.640 --> 00:19:46.599 an exponential curve towards potential future problems like dementia, Alzheimer's 369 00:19:46.640 --> 00:19:47.880 PTSD seizures. 370 00:19:48.079 --> 00:19:52.079 It's like, why doesn't anyone fight by just bumping butts together? 371 00:19:52.279 --> 00:19:52.480 You know? 372 00:19:52.519 --> 00:19:54.160 Why can't they do it where they We've got so 373 00:19:54.279 --> 00:19:55.559 much flesh and no brain. 374 00:19:56.160 --> 00:19:58.960 There might be some species of sea slug that does that. 375 00:19:59.000 --> 00:19:59.440 I don't know. 376 00:20:00.319 --> 00:20:03.880 Do any animals pierce each other's heads with their fallacies 377 00:20:04.279 --> 00:20:07.920 in dick to dick combat? You ask, of course they do. 378 00:20:08.599 --> 00:20:10.880 This is Earth, But just be glad that it was 379 00:20:10.960 --> 00:20:15.200 Twilight and not the twenty fifteen paper cephalo traumatic secretion 380 00:20:15.400 --> 00:20:19.599 transfer and a hermaphroditic sea slug that inspired fifty Shades 381 00:20:19.640 --> 00:20:22.839 of Gray. Because slugs are out there and they are 382 00:20:22.839 --> 00:20:25.319 stabbing each other in the head with their dicks and 383 00:20:25.359 --> 00:20:29.039 putting secretions in there. Babies. Is there anything that you 384 00:20:29.160 --> 00:20:32.839 have to kind of cross reference at all with human 385 00:20:32.880 --> 00:20:36.440 impacts or is it just impossible to even extrapolate this 386 00:20:36.519 --> 00:20:38.359 information into Oh yeah, yeah, a. 387 00:20:38.279 --> 00:20:40.839 Lot of the cellular stuff is really similar to humans. 388 00:20:40.880 --> 00:20:42.839 And honestly, that's all I have to work off of, 389 00:20:42.960 --> 00:20:45.119 because like I said, not a lot of other people 390 00:20:45.160 --> 00:20:48.160 are looking at this. There's a lot of artificial induced 391 00:20:48.200 --> 00:20:50.920 traumatic brain injury and cheap to study the development. But 392 00:20:51.359 --> 00:20:53.680 it's really hard to study in humans too, because a 393 00:20:53.720 --> 00:20:55.960 lot of the data comes from post mortem brains. You 394 00:20:56.000 --> 00:21:00.519 can't really take a brain biopsy while someone's alive. So 395 00:21:00.559 --> 00:21:05.519 we're developing new techniques as you know, as technology gets better. 396 00:21:05.559 --> 00:21:08.480 But the actual overall data out there is not a lot. 397 00:21:08.519 --> 00:21:10.680 But I do use a lot of the human stuff 398 00:21:10.720 --> 00:21:13.559 to try and compare and prove that that is indeed 399 00:21:13.559 --> 00:21:14.160 what's going on. 400 00:21:15.119 --> 00:21:16.799 Do you have to put a call out on like 401 00:21:16.799 --> 00:21:21.640