Speaker 1: You're listening to the Age of Transitions. I'm your host,
Speaker 1: Aaron Franz. This is not a live show, it is
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Speaker 1: chuck out the Age Offtransitions dot com is my website.
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Speaker 1: my book, Revolve Man's Scientific Rise to Godhood there paperback
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Speaker 1: at the Age of Transitions dot com. Thank you everybody
Speaker 1: who follows on Patreon. I just finished the Singularity Summit
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Speaker 1: Then at that point anything you buy, I'll get a
Speaker 1: small amount just for sending you there, so thank you
Speaker 1: for that. And promo code Fronds for Libson gets you
Speaker 1: two months of Libson Podcast hosting service for free. On
Speaker 1: this episode, I welcome back my guest from just last show,
Speaker 1: which is Why, who wrote the Untold Origins of QAnon
Speaker 1: article series which is on Medium. I will have his
Speaker 1: article posts linked in this at the Age of Transitions
Speaker 1: dot Com on this episode. In the previous episode with him,
Speaker 1: I do recommend you go read those articles. So this
Speaker 1: is a fun show. We picked up where we left
Speaker 1: off last time, and we start off this show by
Speaker 1: talking about Julian Assange. So I hope you enjoy this
Speaker 1: everybody today, I am welcome welcoming back to the show
Speaker 1: Why to continue speaking about his unknown q andon Origins
Speaker 1: article series. So, Hello, how are you doing there?
Speaker 2: Why good? How are you?
Speaker 1: I'm well, thank you very much for being here today.
Speaker 1: I appreciate it. It's good to be back in talking
Speaker 1: to you. I guess we'll just pick up where we
Speaker 1: left off on the live show that we did a
Speaker 1: couple of weeks ago. How about you refreshed me. I'm
Speaker 1: trying to remember what we leave off on. Weren't we
Speaker 1: going to talk about? I think I remember what was it?
Speaker 2: Well, we pretty much got up to wiki leaks. Yes, Julian,
Speaker 2: we kind of covered I mean, we kind of covered everything,
Speaker 2: but in an extremely broad sense. We covered Anonymous a
Speaker 2: little bit and how that connects to the hacker culture,
Speaker 2: how that led into sort of the era of QAnon
Speaker 2: and from the era of twenty eleven and all the
Speaker 2: different hacking stuff that was going on around WikiLeaks at
Speaker 2: that time. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Now is there anything that you've think that you
Speaker 1: feel that we missed in the previous show, or just
Speaker 1: anything you want to expand on that we already talked
Speaker 1: about or no, Well.
Speaker 2: We covered everything in a very, like I said, a
Speaker 2: very broad and kind of shallow sense. You could go
Speaker 2: into anything in much more detail, but you got to
Speaker 2: choose something in particular. So I was thinking, like WikiLeaks
Speaker 2: would be good. I mean, you can't really understand this
Speaker 2: stuff unless you take it together and in context, so
Speaker 2: you can dive into a particular aspect of it. But
Speaker 2: it was not going to make sense unless you already
Speaker 2: understand more of the context. So I think sort of
Speaker 2: taking it chronologically in multiple passes kind of works better
Speaker 2: because it allows you to take in the entire story
Speaker 2: from sort of different aspects, probably speaking, So I think
Speaker 2: it might be a good idea to just take this
Speaker 2: time and discuss WikiLeaks from Julian Nosandra's childhood all the
Speaker 2: way up through twenty eleven and through twenty sixteen. It
Speaker 2: sounds good to me, and it's going to connect. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and you're going to connect the stuff we were talking
Speaker 2: about before.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're absolutely right, and I'll apologize to you and
Speaker 1: the audience in that we're only going to be able
Speaker 1: to do so much with these podcast episodes for sure.
Speaker 1: As you're saying, there's so much detail involved in all
Speaker 1: of this, and that's why I would suggest reading your
Speaker 1: article series, which I will once again link at my
Speaker 1: website so there'll be the link to that. But we'll
Speaker 1: do what we can. We'll do what we can, and
Speaker 1: I think that's a great idea. We'll just hop in.
Speaker 1: Why don't you just go ahead and tell us all
Speaker 1: about mister Julian Sonja. I want to hear about this.
Speaker 2: Sure. Well, like you were saying, there is so much
Speaker 2: detail in all of this, and I think in the
Speaker 2: past show that we did, you were saying that you
Speaker 2: wanted to with your show here, you want to try
Speaker 2: to get to the bottom of all this, And I mean,
Speaker 2: I've been researching this a lot over the past few years,
Speaker 2: and I can say that it's very difficult to get
Speaker 2: to the bottom of it, but it is possible, and
Speaker 2: the stuff is out there and it needs people researching it.
Speaker 2: But it is very difficult because there's so much. So
Speaker 2: starting with wiki leaks, maybe you would want to tell me, like,
Speaker 2: what do you remember about like the first time that
Speaker 2: you heard about wiki leaks are assange?
Speaker 1: I'd say a good question, because I feel I've never
Speaker 1: deeply looked at it at all. I've only seen the
Speaker 1: passing stuff with I remember Julining masannge popping up with
Speaker 1: the wiki leaks, and the whole idea is like, look,
Speaker 1: he's making this platform for whistleblowers to post their material.
Speaker 2: And do you remember that when it actually started, or
Speaker 2: do you remember like the Snowden or the man stuff
Speaker 2: cable Gate the very first thing there was stuff before.
Speaker 1: I do recall Snowden, Yes, and then that see I
Speaker 1: don't even remember if Snowden led into a sane they
Speaker 1: were were they like? Was was that part of the
Speaker 1: before WikiLeaks was before Snowden even came out.
Speaker 2: And and Chelsea Manning's leaks were before Snowden's I'm pretty sure.
Speaker 2: And that was with Manning. That was cable Gate. That
Speaker 2: was the first big thing with WikiLeaks was cable gate,
Speaker 2: which was military or diplomatic and military cables and stuff
Speaker 2: like that, or military files. There was a bunch of
Speaker 2: files about Iraq, Afghanistan. And then later on Snowden was
Speaker 2: the NSA stuff, which was also leaked through Wiki leaks,
Speaker 2: or at least it was done in coordination with them.
Speaker 1: Okay, Okay, So Snowden was working with a songe to
Speaker 1: release his material, presumably exposing the NSA what they were
Speaker 1: up to.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but before that, it all starts a few years
Speaker 2: before any of that. It starts in about two thousand
Speaker 2: and six, I think.
Speaker 1: Okay, two thousand, Okay, so what's going on in two
Speaker 1: thousand and six.
Speaker 2: Let's see. Well, in two thousand and six, a Songe
Speaker 2: actually writes sort of some conceptual essays about this idea
Speaker 2: that he has for how this leaking is going to
Speaker 2: like dismantle these authoritarian institutions, And the way it's supposed
Speaker 2: to work is that it's kind of based on like
Speaker 2: a cognitive model of communication within institutions, where in order
Speaker 2: for a secretive institution to exist, the people inside of
Speaker 2: it need to be able to communicate with each other
Speaker 2: while keeping the information from leaving the institution, and that
Speaker 2: if he gets people to leak information out of them,
Speaker 2: it's going to basically make it impossible for the actual
Speaker 2: people in there to communicate with each other because they're
Speaker 2: going to become like paranoid.
Speaker 1: Okay, so it's going to break down their internal communication system,
Speaker 1: the leaking process. Yeah, Okay, interesting, that's or that this
Speaker 1: is the concept he's selling.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I have a link to that two thousand
Speaker 2: essay in my article.
Speaker 1: Two thousand and six essay by Assange. Now, assannge, who
Speaker 1: was he and what he what was he doing in.
Speaker 2: Two thousand and six? What was his role? Like, Well,
Speaker 2: let's start with his actual child, I guess because so
Speaker 2: Sang was born in Australia. He's Australian and I think
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy one. His parents are activists, he doesn't. I
Speaker 2: think his father leaves pretty quickly, but he stays with
Speaker 2: his mother for most of his childhood. So there's this
Speaker 2: there's this period of his childhood where he supposedly his
Speaker 2: mother's boyfriend is like this abusive cult member and is
Speaker 2: trying to sort of they're trying to get away from him.
Speaker 2: And so he says that they spent several years like
Speaker 2: moving from place to place trying to get away from
Speaker 2: this guy.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 2: And that's that's a strange aspect of his childhood, okay,
Speaker 2: because they say that he's a member of this cult.
Speaker 2: The boyfriend whose name is I think his name is
Speaker 2: Leif Maynell and so and so this cult, you can
Speaker 2: actually look it up. It's called the Family, and it's
Speaker 2: also called the Great White Brotherhood. Okay, it's one of
Speaker 2: those cults. And and then one of the things that
Speaker 2: they did was they would like abduct children basically or
Speaker 2: find like orphaned children, raise them in this cult, and
Speaker 2: they would dye all their hair white. Okay, just like
Speaker 2: as songe of course. But officially Assange was never actually
Speaker 2: like part of this. But he does say in pretty
Speaker 2: much every account of his childhood that I've been able
Speaker 2: to find, it talks about him running from this cult
Speaker 2: because of this this boyfriend of his mom's who was
Speaker 2: trying to I guess, get back with them or they
Speaker 2: say he was trying to get sort of into Assange's
Speaker 2: life kind of like as a father figure or something. Okay,
Speaker 2: but it's very suspicious because those types of cults come
Speaker 2: up later in QAnon.
Speaker 1: Okay, so the do we even want to We'll just
Speaker 1: reference them. We'll come back to it, the fact that
Speaker 1: those cults are a part of q Andon.
Speaker 2: Right, Let's just say the the concept of the white
Speaker 2: Hats in QAnon is the same concept as these cults
Speaker 2: had with this great white brotherhood.
Speaker 1: Yeahat white Brothers.
Speaker 2: Like it's it's very strange. So after this period, I
Speaker 2: think this lasts until Asanje is a teenager and then
Speaker 2: he says that at some point he gets old enough
Speaker 2: where like this guy comes back and Assans just confronts
Speaker 2: him and like tells him to leave and leave him alone.
Speaker 2: And apparently this kind of ends that period. Okay, so
Speaker 2: after this, Assan gets into the hacker culture.
Speaker 1: Okay, about how old is How old is he at
Speaker 1: this point.
Speaker 2: Assange, he's about fifteen.
Speaker 1: Fifteen, Okay, so he's he's a young teenager getting into
Speaker 1: the world of the hacker world.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, okay, got it, and he actually becomes like
Speaker 2: extremely good at hacking. There's a book written in nineteen
Speaker 2: ninety six by Assange and Suile At Dreyfus called Underground,
Speaker 2: and this is about the various prosecutions of people in
Speaker 2: the Australian hacking culture, which includes as songe.
Speaker 1: Okay, so he did he get apprehended early on when
Speaker 1: he's a young guy?
Speaker 2: Still he was in his early twenties when he got afriended.
Speaker 2: I think interesting, Yeah, he would be like twenty or
Speaker 2: a little bit older.
Speaker 1: All right, And what's the official story of he gets caught,
Speaker 1: like what supposedly happened to him.
Speaker 2: I don't think that he went to jail. I mean,
Speaker 2: he gets convicted, okay, but I don't think that he
Speaker 2: goes to jail.
Speaker 1: Okay, Okay.
Speaker 2: He's trying to hackeno no, no.
Speaker 1: No, okay, I'm sorry. Continue, I'll jump in here in
Speaker 1: a minute. But he's trying to hack into.
Speaker 2: What he's trying to hack in to telecommunications companies.
Speaker 1: Okay, So the point of I'm sorry, I'm sorry, continue,
Speaker 1: go ahead.
Speaker 2: So at this time, in the early nineties and late eighties,
Speaker 2: really most of it's the late eighties, the hacking culture
Speaker 2: is kind of like regional because they don't have the
Speaker 2: Internet or access to the Internet is pretty limited. They
Speaker 2: also have these other international networks, the X twenty five networks,
Speaker 2: which are packet networks, but they're also limited access. So
Speaker 2: a lot of the hacker scenes are based around like
Speaker 2: local bulletin board services, and then like these hackers are
Speaker 2: all trying to get onto these bigger networks through like
Speaker 2: hacking into like local computers that they can dial into.
Speaker 2: So at this point in time, there is kind of
Speaker 2: like a well, the Internet itself is just going to
Speaker 2: be starting up, and there's also in the hacker culture
Speaker 2: there's also kind of a it's becoming like international in
Speaker 2: a way that it wasn't really before, it was.
Speaker 1: Just starting got it, and did I do want to
Speaker 1: interject this Assange gets caught early on.
Speaker 2: He's young.
Speaker 1: He doesn't seem to do time, is what you're saying, right,
Speaker 1: He doesn't really seem to get in trouble. And I
Speaker 1: mean one of the patterns with this sort of thing
Speaker 1: is if you are into this sort of thing and
Speaker 1: you're good and you get caught a lot of times
Speaker 1: you get recruited right by you know, name the agency
Speaker 1: or you know, group aspect of the government NSA or
Speaker 1: what have you. Like, Okay, if you come work with us,
Speaker 1: you know you're not going to get in trouble, but
Speaker 1: you know, we know you're good. So we're recruiting you
Speaker 1: this way. What do you think about that?
Speaker 2: Well, people have speculated about that. I don't really know
Speaker 2: for sure, yeah, yeah, but it's certainly something that people
Speaker 2: have speculated about.
Speaker 1: Sure, so it's a possibility. Yeah, we don't know, but
Speaker 1: like that's definitely something that has happened with other people.
Speaker 2: So who knows if that did happen. I mean it's
Speaker 2: interesting because if you think about anything with WikiLeaks and Assange,
Speaker 2: what most people think is that might be going on
Speaker 2: is they think that he's like working for the Russians, right, Okay,
Speaker 2: that's the conspiracy that the most, like the normalst normal
Speaker 2: conspiracy about him is that, like he helped the Russians
Speaker 2: hack the election in twenty sixteen, Okay, which would be
Speaker 2: kind of strange if he was an asset of the
Speaker 2: American intelligence exactly. Who knows?
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, I had I had forgotten that the story
Speaker 1: went that Assandra's part of the Russia Gate thing. I
Speaker 1: did not recall that.
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, in some sense, he would have to be.
Speaker 2: I mean, he was communicating with people, or WikiLeaks was
Speaker 2: communicating with people. I think they were communicating with Guzifer
Speaker 2: or whatever, and maybe like Roger Stone or some of
Speaker 2: those people. Okay, communicating with Wiki leaks and talking about
Speaker 2: but I mean, even regardless of the particulars, the idea
Speaker 2: of Russia Gate involves the fact that the WikiLeaks leaks
Speaker 2: had to be like part of it somehow, because that's
Speaker 2: like the Russians would have hacked those emails and given
Speaker 2: them to WikiLeaks, and WikiLeaks would have like gone along
Speaker 2: with it, I see. And you know when they were
Speaker 2: releasing that stuff, they were like openly doing it in
Speaker 2: order to influence the election. So from that you can
Speaker 2: say that they were working with the Russians or something.
Speaker 1: But all right, well, anyway, I'm sorry to throw that
Speaker 1: dadgit in there. Let's continue with a san She's still
Speaker 1: a young guy. What's he up to now?
Speaker 2: Well, interestingly, the next thing that he does is actually
Speaker 2: he starts one of the early ISPs in Australia. So,
Speaker 2: like I was saying, the Internet was just starting up
Speaker 2: at that time. Actually, it says here that he gets
Speaker 2: convicted in nineteen ninety six on Wikipedia. So I'm trying
Speaker 2: to think of when he started the ISP because I
Speaker 2: thought that he started it earlier than that.
Speaker 1: Really, okays, a lot going on with the aside share interesting.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, so anyway, he seems like he started this
Speaker 2: ISP which was called Suburbia dot net in like the
Speaker 2: early nineties. Sometimes oh wow, in his conviction or maybe after,
Speaker 2: I don't know, but it was one of the first
Speaker 2: ISPs in Australia.
Speaker 1: Okay, Well, he was a busy guy professionally and in
Speaker 1: his hacker in the hacker world, he was doing a lot.
Speaker 1: In his youth is the young years of his life.
Speaker 1: He's getting a lot of things going here.
Speaker 2: He's kind of involved in activist culture and like just
Speaker 2: the early Internet culture. He has another website, iq dot org,
Speaker 2: which is like his personal site. So you can go
Speaker 2: to that, and you can also go to suburbia dot net.
Speaker 2: Go to either one of those. On the wayback machine
Speaker 2: you can find old stuff that Assaunch posted. And then
Speaker 2: eventually in two thousand and six is when he establishes WikiLeaks.
Speaker 1: Okay, two thousand and six WikiLeaks. HiT's the scene? Okay,
Speaker 1: and what was the premiere of that? What was that
Speaker 1: looking like.
Speaker 2: Like the first first thing they did or yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: what was like it's like, okay, here's wiki leagues, Like
Speaker 2: what was that? What was going on? Well? He publishes
Speaker 2: those essays about his concept during the beginning the early
Speaker 2: period of WikiLeaks. It's kind of more of like aconceptual thing.
Speaker 2: He's trying to get people who are interested in this idea.
Speaker 2: He's trying to build this infrastructure because supposedly they have
Speaker 2: some kind of really advanced infrastructure that allows people to
Speaker 2: leak stuff to them in a way that's untraceable, although
Speaker 2: I'm not really sure what that consists of. But they're
Speaker 2: building the actual technology. He's hanging around hacker conventions and
Speaker 2: speaking about his idea.
Speaker 1: Okay, so he's putting the word out there like, hey, leakers,
Speaker 1: start leaking, I'm building a platform for you to be
Speaker 1: able to do it safely.
Speaker 2: That's the idea. Yep, okay, yep okay. Interesting.
Speaker 1: So it's fascinating to see how these things are put
Speaker 1: out just as ideas, like these countercultural ideas first and
Speaker 1: then to see what they actually turn into. So this
Speaker 1: is like the initial that phase where just advertising essentially. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I think one of the early people who was helping
Speaker 2: him promote that was Daniel Ellsberg.
Speaker 1: Okay, and and quite remember him. I don't I know
Speaker 1: the name who is Elsberg?
Speaker 2: He? I think he's a guy who released the Pentagon Paper.
Speaker 1: The Pentagon Papers. Okay, Okay, so he's he's a journalist.
Speaker 2: Right, yeah, but he's also he like worked for the military,
Speaker 2: and there's some kind of he worked for the Rand Corporation.
Speaker 2: There's some conspiracy stuff about how maybe the Pentagon Papers
Speaker 2: was limited hangout. Okay, So it's kind of interesting to
Speaker 2: see in that context that he would be associated with
Speaker 2: wiki leagues. But his images in the public is mostly
Speaker 2: that he's kind of like a just like a sane
Speaker 2: which is that he's like a guy who believes in
Speaker 2: transparency and leaking government secrets.
Speaker 1: Interesting, okay, so these Okay, So at this point, I
Speaker 1: mean it's important just to note that we have a
Speaker 1: growing list of accepted people given out into the public sphere.
Speaker 1: Of these are the countercultural people that are bringing out
Speaker 1: the truth of government secrets of corruption, and there is
Speaker 1: an infrastructure these people are part of it, and you know,
Speaker 1: take that for what it is. We're trying to figure
Speaker 1: out what that even means here, uh, but that's definitely
Speaker 1: something that has been going on all along.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So at this point, we've kind of covered the
Speaker 2: whole period of history because we know what happens after that. Okay,
Speaker 2: And like you said, it's it's the counter culture, but
Speaker 2: what that actually means seems to have changed greatly from
Speaker 2: the time we're talking about with the these guys and
Speaker 2: stuff that would start happening after twenty eleven. And it's
Speaker 2: also you know, the tech culture of the Internet and
Speaker 2: people who were involved with the early Internet and how
Speaker 2: they thought it was going to change politics. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Well, there's also that general concept you're alluding to is like, look,
Speaker 1: here's the Internet. It's going to be the great revealer
Speaker 1: of all truths, and it's going to swing open the
Speaker 1: door of all the secrets that were there before. No
Speaker 1: one's going to be able to hide anything. Corruption will
Speaker 1: be exposed. That's kind of like this idealistic concept that
Speaker 1: was put out from the start. These guys are the
Speaker 1: ones who are very much taking that idea and apparently
Speaker 1: making it into reality.
Speaker 2: Suppose.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so where are we going with a son from here?
Speaker 1: What do we do with this guy?
Speaker 2: Well, I guess at this point, what are we trying
Speaker 2: to what question are we trying to answer about him?
Speaker 1: Well, how does he tie into Well, I guess we
Speaker 1: spoke to hacker culture, but does he link back to
Speaker 1: Anonymous because we were talking about Anonymous in the previous episode.
Speaker 1: Does he have any ties of Anonymous or is Anonymous
Speaker 1: promoting him? And what is the plan that website? Does
Speaker 1: that tie into a songe in WikiLeaks somehow?
Speaker 2: Soonge doesn't really tie into Anonymous in any obvious way.
Speaker 2: They both are things that originate from the same kind
Speaker 2: of counterculture of the actavist hacker culture. There might be
Speaker 2: some connections to uncover between some early like two thousand's
Speaker 2: and early twenty tens stuff about another Anonymous that that
Speaker 2: might show some connections there, but he doesn't really seem to.
Speaker 2: I mean, by the time Anonymous comes off of like
Speaker 2: four tan and Assange is like doing He's busy doing
Speaker 2: like this wiki leak stuff. He's not like engaging and
Speaker 2: like trolling and stuff with people like the Anonymous because
Speaker 2: the whole thing with Anonymous was supposed to be like that.
Speaker 2: They're just having fun with everything. They're not like even
Speaker 2: though they are like activists, they're also kind of like
Speaker 2: supposed to be uh, like the Mary Pranksters or something.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and very much Anonymous always comes off as like
Speaker 1: this art project more than even like activism.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and there's connections to art subcultures, but like this
Speaker 2: kind of stuff is all can in the early cyber
Speaker 2: hacker activist culture, but asanj is more on the political
Speaker 2: side of it. I know something I can bring in
Speaker 2: here is this whole Cickeida thirty three oh one alternate
Speaker 2: reality game stuff. Yes, what is so? That is something
Speaker 2: that a lot of people have suggested is connected to QAnon,
Speaker 2: and I think they're somewhat correct in that, although there's
Speaker 2: also a lot of other stuff that that's connected to
Speaker 2: it in a similar way, including the stuff that happened
Speaker 2: on this what is the plan site, But this whole
Speaker 2: Cicada thing, I mean, do you understand what this concept
Speaker 2: of the alternate reality game is?
Speaker 1: Yes, basically it's an idea of people. It's being done
Speaker 1: through forums in this case, But what it is is
Speaker 1: you try to do some sort of group project where
Speaker 1: you are on line but you're taking material from reality
Speaker 1: and somehow like building something. And the idea was that
Speaker 1: the Cicada game ends up building something, right, some piece
Speaker 1: of software. Am I all right in this?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, it's kind of like an art project or
Speaker 2: like a game that mixes media and like reality. Mostly
Speaker 2: the format it takes, and it's existed before the Internet
Speaker 2: in kind of like the Discordian and like other countercultures.
Speaker 2: The format usually takes is that you'll like see a
Speaker 2: website with like some kind of puzzle on it. People
Speaker 2: will start talking about, like, what is the mystery about
Speaker 2: this website? A lot of times it will be like
Speaker 2: promoted without actually openly promoting it, but people will go
Speaker 2: on forums and stuff and post about it to get
Speaker 2: people interested.
Speaker 1: Okay, so there's always some there's always some interesting form
Speaker 1: of promotion of these ARGs.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there was an article as well that Assane was
Speaker 2: involved in some of this stuff during when he was
Speaker 2: in college. I can't find it though. It was when
Speaker 2: he was in college in Australia.
Speaker 1: Okay, so he was he was setting up in alternate
Speaker 1: reality game ors. He he was like a player in
Speaker 1: one or something.
Speaker 2: He was setting up. His college had some kind of
Speaker 2: like thing they would do where they would like publish
Speaker 2: puzzles in the college newspaper or something like that. But
Speaker 2: it was kind of the same idea. So, yeah, the
Speaker 2: Cicada thing. According to one person who says that they
Speaker 2: got to like the deep level of it or whatever
Speaker 2: it sounds like they were trying to create software for
Speaker 2: something like wiki leaks and the what is the plan stuff,
Speaker 2: They were also trying to support wiki leaks. So it
Speaker 2: doesn't really prove anything because everybody in that part of
Speaker 2: like internet culture was trying to do stuff to help
Speaker 2: WikiLeaks around the time of twenty eleven. It was a
Speaker 2: really uh universal position.
Speaker 1: Yes, so they were the good guys in terms of
Speaker 1: this sort of rebellious countercultural tide, like WikiLeaks is the
Speaker 1: thing that we need to empower to bring to justice,
Speaker 1: you know, the powers that be or whatnot. That was
Speaker 1: just an accepted reality.
Speaker 2: Yeah, among any of the websites where like slashdot or
Speaker 2: Reddit or any of these websites where hacker internet subculture
Speaker 2: people would go, it was unanimous support of WikiLeaks. Interesting, okay,
Speaker 2: And so I mean I think think it definitely does
Speaker 2: mean something that these games were connected because because QAnon
Speaker 2: absolutely ends up drawing from the same techniques as those games,
Speaker 2: and it's also obviously connected to WikiLeaks, okay.
Speaker 1: And the techniques you're talking about is basically setting up
Speaker 1: an online community that interacts with one another, putting pieces
Speaker 1: of a parent puzzle together and crafting maybe a narrative
Speaker 1: or helping to craft some kind of weird narrative, is
Speaker 1: that what's going on?
Speaker 2: Well with the Cicada one and the what is the
Speaker 2: Plan one, it was just pretty much like you solve
Speaker 2: these puzzles and then you get into this like chat
Speaker 2: room or whatever, and they start saying, like you've solved it,
Speaker 2: you're you're smart, and we need your help to like
Speaker 2: build this software. Interesting, So that's that part of it
Speaker 2: was kind of separate from the like the game part
Speaker 2: of it. It was kind of like after the game,
Speaker 2: they would say, well, you need to help us build this.
Speaker 2: But the overall thing that those kind of games do
Speaker 2: is they can bring I mean they they are participatory.
Speaker 2: So when you see something like pizzagate, for example, that
Speaker 2: takes on a similar form except instead they're basically telling
Speaker 2: people to do research, like opposition research on politicians, except
Speaker 2: they turn it into a game with memes and online
Speaker 2: communities where any random person can come in and participate.
Speaker 2: So they're mobilizing people.
Speaker 1: Got it, Yeah, for political ends. We're talking explicitly about policy,
Speaker 1: So it becomes explicitly political when QAnon shows up before
Speaker 1: not so much much tangentially, Maybe.
Speaker 2: It depends on what you mean. I mean, you could
Speaker 2: say that it was even less political when it became
Speaker 2: q and on because q andon became like incoherent in
Speaker 2: terms of anything political.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but at the same time, QAnon was always used
Speaker 1: to prop up the whole maga thing, isn't that. I mean,
Speaker 1: where we go, where we go, it just continues to
Speaker 1: be trust the plan, the plan being that Donald Trump
Speaker 1: is going to you know, do whatever it is.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, it depends on what you mean by political.
Speaker 1: Well, I mean that seems like it's that that seems
Speaker 1: as explicitly political as you can get, because we're talking
Speaker 1: about first of all, getting a president elected and then
Speaker 1: second of all, once they're elected, just cheering them onward
Speaker 1: because of whatever this weird ornate reality game you're playing.
Speaker 1: It's it's all, but we're talking about the president of
Speaker 1: the United States, the executive branch, you know. I mean
Speaker 1: to me, that seems like the most Yeah, it is, right, like,
Speaker 1: in a mainstream sense, that's as political as it gets.
Speaker 2: Right it is. But in another sense, it's also kind
Speaker 2: of like, uh, completely detached from any real political issues.
Speaker 2: So in a certain sense, it is it's it just
Speaker 2: brings up an interesting distinction with the term like what
Speaker 2: is really political activity's.
Speaker 1: I mean, that's a wild dichotomy to think about, is
Speaker 1: the president of the United States. And then on the
Speaker 1: other end of this whatever, this meme game, online culture,
Speaker 1: hacker world is.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and the people on four Chan who were doing
Speaker 2: that stuff were very open about what they what they
Speaker 2: thought they were doing.
Speaker 1: Okay, so what were they saying they were doing.
Speaker 2: Well, they said that they were basically doing chaos magic,
Speaker 2: which is basically the use of memes and the use
Speaker 2: of It's the same thing that these alternate reality games
Speaker 2: are in a certain sense, is that you can kind
Speaker 2: of reach out through the medium of the Internet and
Speaker 2: kind of tap into people's cognition and get them to
Speaker 2: repeat whatever you're saying, or get them to conduct research
Speaker 2: on your behalf and collaborate on projects. And this actually works.
Speaker 2: It's not something supernatural, but it's something that works in
Speaker 2: practical terms.
Speaker 1: Sure, so it's being present as definitely an occult concept,
Speaker 1: chaos magic, But what you're saying is that practically speaking,
Speaker 1: what they're doing when they say they're doing chaos magic
Speaker 1: is that this thing gets results and we can we
Speaker 1: can see that. So that's interesting.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's kind of like the evolution of like
Speaker 2: how people used to think about TV, like controlling people
Speaker 2: and like turning people into zombies. In a way, it's
Speaker 2: kind of just like that, except as participatory. Now, got it.
Speaker 1: It's well, yeah, the Internet is interactive. We're talking about forums.
Speaker 1: It's where people are communicating with each other. So it's
Speaker 1: taking this interactive communication network media and bringing in this
Speaker 1: occult chaos magic concept that kind of dovetails also with
Speaker 1: this weird sort of all art artistic slash activist communities.
Speaker 1: There's a lot going on.
Speaker 2: Here, Yeah, there is, but you're getting the picture of it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, right, So this is so we're talking about occult concepts,
Speaker 1: we're talking about practical technological innovations. I guess you could say,
Speaker 1: with the technical side of the Internet what it actually is.
Speaker 1: We're also talking about politics, we're talking about activism, We're
Speaker 1: talking about art, We're talking about narrative building and community building.
Speaker 1: What about that? What about community building? Let's talk about that, Like,
Speaker 1: because throughout all of this it seems like it's just
Speaker 1: this weird, sort of nebulous They're never even with something
Speaker 1: like QAnon, they have this where we go one we
Speaker 1: go all idea like it's one actual group, but never
Speaker 1: seems to be like one group because you never is
Speaker 1: there a group in person. It's it's always facilitated online.
Speaker 1: But when you think about like an actual group of
Speaker 1: people getting together, has that ever even happened in the
Speaker 1: middle of this or is it about not making that happen?
Speaker 2: Well, that's very interesting if you're thinking of it in
Speaker 2: terms of like identity and the idea of the anonymous
Speaker 2: identity and like organization. I mean, the organization is a network.
Speaker 2: They're organizing people in a structure that is a network.
Speaker 2: And if you look back at like the whole New
Speaker 2: Age movement, because a lot of what a lot of
Speaker 2: this stuff comes out of the cybernetic like transhumanist kind
Speaker 2: of New ag culture, which you should be familiar with,
Speaker 2: right because this is what you were covering in your book,
Speaker 2: And you know those people talk about networking a lot,
Speaker 2: right sure, And they talk about it in terms of
Speaker 2: how their own movements are structured, even maybe more so
Speaker 2: than they talk about it in terms of actual computer networks.
Speaker 2: So in terms of identity, what's what's interesting to me
Speaker 2: is with like the anonymous thing it's associated with like trolling, yes,
Speaker 2: And there is like a corresponding like other type of
Speaker 2: internet person who is like maybe the one who's usually
Speaker 2: the target of trolling, which is like the person who
Speaker 2: gets easily offended and has like like handles that identify
Speaker 2: them online. And then there's like the anonymous person who's
Speaker 2: like the troll who is you know, has no identity.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're always anonymous, they're an anon.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And so it's kind of a question of like
Speaker 2: who is actually more like sociopathic between the two of those,
Speaker 2: because one of the ideas that the anonymous people would
Speaker 2: always kind of promote is that they're like ego lists
Speaker 2: or something because they have no identity. But when you
Speaker 2: look at the things that they've done, it turns out that, uh,
Speaker 2: I don't know. But because when you look at the
Speaker 2: other people though, like what the ones who they would
Speaker 2: call like the social justice warriors who are like the
Speaker 2: enemies of the annons generally, like those people are also
Speaker 2: very sociopathic in some ways. But but like there's this
Speaker 2: one is like a is absolutely identified and even like
Speaker 2: they're obsessed with identity and this is you know, identity politics,
Speaker 2: and the other one is like completely identity less and
Speaker 2: they're supposed to be like competing with each other in
Speaker 2: some way. In some ways, they're.
Speaker 1: Kind of a it's a purity test. It's that they're
Speaker 1: they're undergoing like this purity test that they're in a
Speaker 1: competition with. There is an another occult aspect of this
Speaker 1: is who has less ego? Right, It's almost like they're
Speaker 1: buying for the Master's uh good graces or something, right,
Speaker 1: Uh huh. That's kind of an interesting way to take it.
Speaker 1: It's like who's who is the most pure in this?
Speaker 2: What?
Speaker 1: What kind of battle in heaven are we talking about here?
Speaker 2: Right? Yeah, some of them have thought of it in
Speaker 2: those terms.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, of course they have. They always It always
Speaker 1: ends up that way when we get onto things like this.
Speaker 1: But that's the way of things, I guess. Have we
Speaker 1: have we covered a songe to your liking? Is there
Speaker 1: anything else you think we should bring up with him?
Speaker 1: Or do you want to move on from here, because
Speaker 1: we could if you want to move on to QAnon itself.
Speaker 1: Is it too early to do that or would or
Speaker 1: do you would you like to?
Speaker 2: Well, there's a lot of stuff in twenty eleven that
Speaker 2: we haven't exactly covered, but.
Speaker 1: We could go back to that too. We could go
Speaker 1: back to that. How about that? What what should be?
Speaker 1: I mean, should we.
Speaker 2: Could go to QAnon? Okay, here's here's something. I mean,
Speaker 2: there isn't any like order in which we should address
Speaker 2: this stuff. It's all connected. So yeah, that's true. So
Speaker 2: in my QAnon article, one of the thing that I
Speaker 2: start out with is to observe that in these cults,
Speaker 2: like you know, oftentimes involving the Great White Brotherhood, which
Speaker 2: is associated with the theosophy, I mean that's where it
Speaker 2: comes from.
Speaker 1: Right, sure, Yeah, that's that's probably one of the earliest
Speaker 1: incarnations of that actual term Great White Brotherhood. But it
Speaker 1: definitely comes up again and again when you're talking about
Speaker 1: these occult groups, that's for sure.
Speaker 2: And there's there's other kind of versions of that, like
Speaker 2: that are about some kind of secret society.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean New Age groups are always using that
Speaker 1: like oh yes, we're part of the Great White Brotherhood
Speaker 1: and that they're saying how great it is. It's like
Speaker 1: these New Age cults always use that term.
Speaker 2: So yeah, the observation and other people have made this
Speaker 2: observation as well. But the observation is that if you
Speaker 2: look at QAnon and the way QAnon actually speaks as
Speaker 2: well as sort of just the idea of this this
Speaker 2: entity or something that it that what these cults do
Speaker 2: is they often channel entity. That's like one of their
Speaker 2: big things.
Speaker 1: Are they doing this explicitly? Are they explicitly saying hey,
Speaker 1: we're we're invoking this deity or they just kind of
Speaker 1: someone has.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they do. They do that all the time. Okay,
Speaker 2: they have entire books full of channeled material. You you
Speaker 2: were you were talking about one of them in your book,
Speaker 2: but I don't remember what it was called. Yes, yes,
Speaker 2: there's endless amount of this material.
Speaker 1: Well, it's it's it's it's an ongoing thing like any
Speaker 1: give any given like online platform and I see this
Speaker 1: on social media now TikTok is rife with this, with
Speaker 1: just TikTok user saying yeah, I just channeled an alien today.
Speaker 1: The audience name is this or that. So it's an
Speaker 1: ongoing it's an ongoing motif.
Speaker 2: And those videos are weird and there's like thousands of
Speaker 2: those videos.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, they're endless. It's there's there's an endless there
Speaker 1: always have been online endless amounts of these things. So
Speaker 1: it's it's a pat uh.
Speaker 2: So yeah, that's all. That's all that I'm talking about,
Speaker 2: except that when you look at QAnon, that is the
Speaker 2: same thing, or at least it appears like it could
Speaker 2: be the same thing, right, Okay, the way QAnon speaks,
Speaker 2: like have you read the posts?
Speaker 1: You know what? I I never have dived into the
Speaker 1: actual posts looking at them myself, so though, so so
Speaker 1: go ahead and describe that for me and the audience here.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, it's kind of similar to a lot of
Speaker 2: these channeled cult h channeled books and stuff. The the
Speaker 2: way the the the entity speaks is kind of like, uh,
Speaker 2: I don't know exactly why it is, but it's it
Speaker 2: just has a certain quality to it which is not
Speaker 2: it's not like conversational really it's.
Speaker 1: Yes, it's it's it's cryptic. It's very cryptic. Right, there's
Speaker 1: all these cryptic messages that you need to pick up on.
Speaker 2: Like there's a book I think it's by T. M. Lherman,
Speaker 2: which is on uh speaking in tongues. Okay, And so
Speaker 2: there a lot of people who have studied this feel
Speaker 2: like when people are doing this, they're not just making
Speaker 2: it up. They're like making their brain like do a
Speaker 2: certain kind of thing where like like automatic writing, so
Speaker 2: it has Look, the actual product has a kind of
Speaker 2: quality to it which is different than just like.
Speaker 1: So this is this. This would be a skeptical take
Speaker 1: where you're saying, look, they may not be channeling entities, however,
Speaker 1: they are altering their consciousness when they're doing this.
Speaker 2: Is that? Right?
Speaker 1: Yeah, going into a different so state.
Speaker 2: Well, it depends on I mean, there's different ways you
Speaker 2: could explain it. My explanation is kind of that it
Speaker 2: has something to do with like blanking out your own
Speaker 2: subjective consciousness and perhaps I don't know what happens after that.
Speaker 2: But so the observation here is that, let's say that
Speaker 2: we would make that observation that QAnon is like that.
Speaker 2: The other thing is that QAnon is like a wikileak source.
Speaker 1: Okay, right, okay, yeah, yeah, it's like, oh look here's
Speaker 1: this insider information. And when you're saying I think I'm
Speaker 1: just going to point out with QAnon, it's like Q
Speaker 1: the character Q is like the the entity that's being
Speaker 1: channeled or is that what's going on here?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Okay, yeah, but it's it's like a wikileak source
Speaker 2: in its content, which is government secrets. Okay, yeah, Because
Speaker 2: so that's kind of where I start.
Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, because QAnon is supposed, So the identity of
Speaker 1: q in the QA non forums is they proclaim that
Speaker 1: they're a government insider. They have all this inside information
Speaker 1: and they are leaking it to you, the user on
Speaker 1: this four ch eight chan forum in cryptographic fashion, like
Speaker 1: I'm going to tell you the truth in these cryptograms.
Speaker 1: It's up to you to unravel it. But it's all
Speaker 1: there for you. I'm giving you all the clues, right yep, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I know that much.
Speaker 2: So that's kind of like the core premise of how
Speaker 2: I'm trying to analyze it is that it's similar to
Speaker 2: these cults, and it's also similar to WikiLeaks what WikiLeaks
Speaker 2: was actually doing. And when we look at the material
Speaker 2: history of q andon, it includes connections to WikiLeaks and WikiLeaks.
Speaker 2: Through the history of Assane includes connections to these kinds
Speaker 2: of cults. Okay, and then we can also from that
Speaker 2: point everything else that I add to it just through
Speaker 2: further research.
Speaker 1: Okay, So you're just noticing the patterns and the similarities
Speaker 1: and how the confluence of these different things always seems
Speaker 1: to recur. Sure, Okay, very good, All right, let's continue
Speaker 1: on with QAnon, What the hell is going on in
Speaker 1: this mad house?
Speaker 2: Well after about twenty eighteen, twenty nineteen, a lot of
Speaker 2: people started to come out and talk about how they
Speaker 2: were the one who created QAnon okay, And a lot
Speaker 2: of these people would talk about this Cicida thirty three
Speaker 2: oh one game. Although the thing about that is that
Speaker 2: it's not very clear whether any of those people were
Speaker 2: telling the truth or like how much of what they
Speaker 2: said was true or not. So it's it's very ambiguous
Speaker 2: about any actual origin of like who was making those posts.
Speaker 1: Okay, So you're getting something where it's like, hey, this
Speaker 1: is the real QAnon, but at the same time you're
Speaker 1: not getting any proof of anything.
Speaker 2: Yep, okay, And a lot of people who are like
Speaker 2: professional journalists think that it was like Ron Watkins, who
Speaker 2: is the guy who works at eight chan.
Speaker 1: Yeah, those were the that was the guy in the
Speaker 1: Philippines living is that right?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I saw that documentary. I think that was on
Speaker 1: HBO even right.
Speaker 2: Uh yeah, Well there was a HBO one and there
Speaker 2: was a VICE one. But it's it's not clear who
Speaker 2: made QAnon, but it is clear that there's a history
Speaker 2: leading back through the Cicada thirty three oh one stuff,
Speaker 2: which the people who were involved in that were also
Speaker 2: involved with the Seth Rich story, promoting that there's some
Speaker 2: connections to Michael Flynn in some of those people, as
Speaker 2: well as other just weird stuff that they're connected to,
Speaker 2: including like those same types of cults and like new
Speaker 2: age techno culty stuff. Interesting. Yeah, And so that's kind
Speaker 2: of the immediate prehistory of QAnon in from the years
Speaker 2: of like twenty fifteen to like when it actually occurred,
Speaker 2: involves very ambiguous, like some arg stuff. I mean, I
Speaker 2: guess we could talk about Pizzagate, but I guess we
Speaker 2: already did.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because pizzagate Wiki Leaks was in on the pizza
Speaker 1: Gate story, right, yeah.
Speaker 2: I mean they even made some posts on Twitter that
Speaker 2: we're seeming to like point to, like stuff that would
Speaker 2: promote Pizzagate within the leaks.
Speaker 1: Okay, all right, So okay, Yeah, So that's the pizza
Speaker 1: Gate thing was huge in spurring on QAnon. I would
Speaker 1: say sort of QAnon was was born out of that
Speaker 1: in part Is that right?
Speaker 2: Or am I wrong? Yeah? And Pizzagate in particular was huge,
Speaker 2: and getting Trump elected in twenty sixteen, the timing for
Speaker 2: that was perfect. For just the perfect impact right before
Speaker 2: the election got it. Yeah, it was.
Speaker 1: It was the perfect storm, so to speak. It was
Speaker 1: what and what we're talking about is an election that
Speaker 1: was one on the premise that we're going to overthrow
Speaker 1: the deep state. We're going to do so by the
Speaker 1: means that we've learned through these alternate reality games that
Speaker 1: we've been playing for so long. It almost culminated in
Speaker 1: this election.
Speaker 2: Is this right? Am I on the right track? Yeah?
Speaker 2: I mean a lot of people would be skeptical of
Speaker 2: saying that this stuff caused Trump to win, But if
Speaker 2: you actually witnessed it, I don't think you would think that.
Speaker 2: And even if you were just somebody who was on
Speaker 2: Twitter during the twenty sixteen election season and saw how
Speaker 2: the entire platform was flooded with that stuff, Yeah, it
Speaker 2: seems perfectly plausible. And all of that, like the whole
Speaker 2: meme war stuff comes from these techniques of like basically
Speaker 2: like techno occultism, chaos, magic, controlling. Yeah, and even the
Speaker 2: people who are doing it a lot of times seem
Speaker 2: to like not actually believe in it, because that's the
Speaker 2: thing is that you're just doing it for fun.
Speaker 1: But yeah, there's an inherent nihilism in all this too.
Speaker 1: That gets utilized over and over again. Yeah, because it
Speaker 1: makes the participants they get a feeling as though they're
Speaker 1: doing something but they're not culpable. At the same time,
Speaker 1: it seems like like they can get away with it
Speaker 1: without having any consequence.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's definitely part of it.
Speaker 1: There's a lot going on here.
Speaker 2: Why that's that part of it has been has been
Speaker 2: addressed more because a lot of the mainstream coverage of
Speaker 2: it has focused on they know, like the sociopathic troll culture.
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, it has. I feel like the mainstream is
Speaker 1: trying to play ketchup on all this stuff, and to
Speaker 1: a degree they're doing it, but there's always a depth
Speaker 1: to this that's lacking, Like I never see anybody getting
Speaker 1: all the way there for lack of a better term,
Speaker 1: and being kind of ambiguous. But you can't help but
Speaker 1: to be because of the nature of this, and that's
Speaker 1: why this is so tricky, I think.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and a lot of people in the mainstream, when
Speaker 2: they get to the deeper parts of the stuff, they
Speaker 2: will actually start to say, like this is conspiracy theory
Speaker 2: and therefore this can't be what really happened. Yeah, they
Speaker 2: think that it's actually encouraging the worldview of like what
Speaker 2: they think they're trying to combat. If they start to
Speaker 2: speculate about like this weird stuff that happened, and so
Speaker 2: they will just say that that's not what happened. It
Speaker 2: was just like uh, Jim Watkins.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's interesting. But it's almost like this system of
Speaker 1: getting things done to me, I see the results, so
Speaker 1: that speaks for itself, but almost has this built in
Speaker 1: immunity where as you're describing, nobody can challenge it.
Speaker 2: I think occultism generally has that, Yeah, because people can't
Speaker 2: believe that it's effective, and so to the extent that
Speaker 2: it is effective, people can use it without nobody's gonna
Speaker 2: like put someone in jail for this. Even like the
Speaker 2: QAnon stuff, there's people out there who have like behaved
Speaker 2: in completely like ways that should be illegal, ways that
Speaker 2: have caused extreme levels of harm to other people, but
Speaker 2: there's nothing that they could be charged with. Yes, and
Speaker 2: that's the same thing as saying, like nobody's going to
Speaker 2: charge somebody for like being like a magician. Yes, very interesting.
Speaker 1: This is all fascinating and I love this, but I
Speaker 1: have to say, why we're towards the end of an hour,
Speaker 1: and I think, I mean, we may as well just
Speaker 1: end it here, unless would you really like to continue
Speaker 1: talking or would it be okay just say hey, we'll
Speaker 1: pick up with this again. We'll keep talking if we
Speaker 1: want to. No, this is good, okay, cool, Yeah, I'm
Speaker 1: right there with you, man, So we'll end this episode here.
Speaker 1: I want to thank you for returning to the show.
Speaker 1: This is great, and are you open to coming back
Speaker 1: and continuing this talk?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Okay, okay, Well, we'll stay in contact and we'll see
Speaker 1: how we feel and what we might want to talk about.
Speaker 1: But for now, why don't you once again let people
Speaker 1: know where your article series on this is how they
Speaker 1: can find that.
Speaker 2: It's at medium dot com, slash at y h L
Speaker 2: y two F.
Speaker 1: Okay, thank you very much, and I will put the
Speaker 1: link to that once again in the post to the
Speaker 1: age of transitions in this Why before you go? It's it.
Speaker 1: I've been thinking about this. We've got QAnon and you
Speaker 1: are you have become why Ann? Is that okay? Or
Speaker 1: do you not want? Do you not want that to
Speaker 1: be the case?
Speaker 2: Well? I was thinking about that too, but it's kind
Speaker 2: of like already done. So I mean, I can just
Speaker 2: say that I'm not why then, but I think I
Speaker 2: think QAnon actually said that as well. I think I
Speaker 2: think QAnon posted and said, like, I'm just que I'm
Speaker 2: not QAnon. So but regardless, I'm I can't uh, I
Speaker 2: can't be that because like I'm not doing what QAnon does.
Speaker 2: I'm just like, uh like doing the opposite, So like
Speaker 2: I can't be so.
Speaker 1: I'm just I'm giving you a hard time, man, I'm
Speaker 1: I'm having some but yes, once again, thank you for
Speaker 1: coming back and we'll see. Well, I've been having a
Speaker 1: lot of fun with this and I can't recommend your
Speaker 1: articles enough to people, So go check that out everybody.
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to this episode of the Age
Speaker 1: of Transitions. There's no new Uncle the podcast this week.
Speaker 1: Just hang on next week Uncle and I will be
Speaker 1: back with a live show and everything. So thank you
Speaker 1: for your patience. In the meantime, go back into the feed.
Speaker 1: There's hundreds of episodes. If you want to listen to
Speaker 1: something that you haven't listened to before. My name is
Speaker 1: Aaron Franz uh. The Age of Transitions dot com is
Speaker 1: a website. As always, I will leave you by saying
Speaker 1: seeker Seek on