Speaker 1: Today's show is dedicated to the memory of Ace Frehley.
You are listening to macconnorton Unleashed on WM and H
ninety five point three and now the world radio premiere
of the new single from Box of Trash. This is
called Nightmare.
Speaker 2: Hello Lisby, how you planning there?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 2: Bye bye?
Speaker 4: How inside on what I say?
Speaker 5: It's meaning this?
Speaker 6: It's a chass piggy chatz to me in cessness now
as something shakes me awaken that of Rusty Brock.
Speaker 7: I left you love such a night there.
Speaker 6: I just swam to the best, she said, She said me,
yet what you wish for the games, saying that I
wanted God.
Speaker 7: When I've sold you.
Speaker 8: Wow.
Speaker 9: So right now.
Speaker 6: Lost in town weather, Crown of the Lonely Ground.
Speaker 2: Something shakes me awake.
Speaker 10: That a ruse you from the book over.
Speaker 2: I let you know. I'm such a din there.
Speaker 10: I just walk due to care.
Speaker 2: I don't mean it anymore.
Speaker 11: That's something you're coming though, and.
Speaker 1: Nothing need be setting something my body turning.
Speaker 6: No, I just thought I let you know. She said,
she said, she said, she said, she said, she said,
she said, she said, she said.
Speaker 7: I never allowed such a nightmare.
Speaker 6: Wam es Yeah, I don't hate anyone that's a misnomodone.
Speaker 2: I did just set itself.
Speaker 4: Feel my body?
Speaker 2: Tell me now how you start? I let you know?
Let you know.
Speaker 1: And now the world radio premiere of the new single
from the Far North. This is called Mountain Sun.
Speaker 11: The way things change. I don't think I can guess
your next to move. I miss you bird, your restrain
on me. It's still so much to prove.
Speaker 12: You say that you'll change, so I'll leave your keeper
the door.
Speaker 13: Soon after that it all fads to black, and I'm
not so in loving mon.
Speaker 4: The gaps in my heart don't belong.
Speaker 2: Breed love?
Speaker 13: Can we go back camp again? Can we go back
camp again? Every time I pen my feet, the rock
post fly underneath.
Speaker 14: I get back off for.
Speaker 2: Another round to climb this mountain? You farm, You see
that you'll change, So I leave your key about the door.
Soon after that it all fits the black, and I'm
not so ill loving Animore.
Speaker 5: Cold.
Speaker 13: The caps in my heart don't belong. Can't we go
back and again? Can't we go back and again?
Speaker 1: And now the world radio premiere of the new single
from the Painting. This is called Scarlet.
Speaker 2: Sat. I just wants you talk about like a thought.
Speaker 10: So how is it going to shut that to me?
A new stars stock? Which is your stuff?
Speaker 2: Where do we come you be from? Star? Can we
come out to talk.
Speaker 3: To you?
Speaker 2: Joe you Jos met.
Speaker 13: To Jose.
Speaker 2: Should just Sason, John.
Speaker 4: Lass Fellow Strong, we go.
Speaker 10: Just g s s principles, People fuck, Jos.
Speaker 15: Says now the world radio premiere of the new single
from Dakota Avenue.
Speaker 1: This is the rollover, no phone.
Speaker 14: No biked, he was because with days from home, it's
just the guns.
Speaker 16: Then let's play hot and see don't.
Speaker 4: Make any sounds of the death.
Speaker 16: I'll convince them it's me myself because if it has
to be on my pue Ziah, if.
Speaker 2: It has to be, that's world.
Speaker 4: Rather lie.
Speaker 2: Because what you do is amazed. What should she used
to do?
Speaker 17: Your life is amazing? This Amazon, it's wing is my favor.
You're watching you is my favors.
Speaker 2: The long she roll over, I'm over in Broadcat.
Speaker 4: It's a safety. Don't try anything not to save me.
It's the least I can do to.
Speaker 2: Repay your father things you do.
Speaker 16: Because if it has to be you love me, I'm sorry,
it's just sad you everything it has to be you
of me.
Speaker 2: It's world life. Yeah, because what you do is amazing.
Is what should choose to do? Your li filemaz Christal Mazes.
So she n is my famie. You know what you
him is my favorite.
Speaker 4: Watching you.
Speaker 2: He is so dangerous. You're what your name is my favorite.
Speaker 4: Song?
Speaker 3: She love.
Speaker 8: Let me.
Speaker 16: Ergon on me.
Speaker 2: Ever as the beginning to it a bottles Ramos around
Now mutine is my fame. It's bottles and Rammas around.
The Latin was so gay and joy the chin here
is my game. It's a mont er Che is so
gay this.
Speaker 1: Hey, welcome everybody, Here we go. It is that time again,
Matt Connorton Unleashed and we are live from the studios
of WMNH ninety five point three FM, Inglorious, Manchester, New Hampshire.
You can stream the show anywhere. Go to Matt connorton
dot com slash live for all your live streaming options,
social media links, conduct and fos, archives, etc.
Speaker 18: Etc.
Speaker 1: Today is Saturday, October eighteen, twenty twenty five. Jenny is
not here. She's got a big event coming up today
in Conquered, but we do have a couple of fine
gentlemen here joining us via Microsoft teams. So I'll introduce
first someone longtime listeners are familiar with, of course, Eric Pilcher. Hello, Eric, Hello, Matt,
how are you good? Good, Welcome to the program. Of course,
Eric and I host the Tough Bumps podcast together, and
Eric's been a part of this show off and on
for years now, years and years. So but I did
there's a specific reason why I invited Eric to co
host the the hour one segment with me this morning,
because we also have with us David Shabbaz David, and
I'm pronouncing your last name correctly, Shabbaz David. Shabbaz is
with us, and David welcome to the show. Of course.
Uh David is an author and a journalist, and of
course is the author of Black Gold Discover Pro Wrestling's
Black World Champions, the third edition. And uh, So, David,
we're excited to talk to you because Eric and I,
of course we're both lifelong fans of professional wrestling, and
so I was thrilled when you reached out to us
about coming on the coming on the show. And it's
great to have here. And congratulations on the third edition
of the book. That's pretty cool.
Speaker 18: Oh, thank you. I'm glad to be here with.
Speaker 1: You both, absolutely, So first thing I'd like to know
from you is why did you Why did you the book?
What was your inspiration for doing this?
Speaker 9: Well, that's sort of a long story. I'll try to
keep it a little short. This particular book, I really
wrote this book to further my brother's legacy. My brother
Julian was writing about black professional wrestlers since nineteen ninety nine,
and when he passed in twenty twenty, going through his things,
I found the first edition of this book, Pro Wrestling's
Black World Champions, and it was really a small ebook
that really wasn't distributed on a large scale. So paying
tribute to him, I put it out. A second edition
out in twenty twenty two. I thought that would be
good because there had been a few more wrestlers at
that time. There were thirteen in his first publication who
were profiled, and if you more had actually won the
title in twenty two, and so I put that second
edition out and this is the third, which is larger.
It has more of the professional wrestlers in this particular edition,
and this one is a little more of me, if
you will, but it's still furthering my brother's legacy.
Speaker 1: Oh, that's outstanding, and I really like the way that.
So you open the book with, well, there's a lot
of information in this book, but you open it with
that scene. And I'm sure Eric probably remembers this vividly
as well. You go back to that scene where Booker
T and you gave the whole backstory, which is great.
You go into a lot of detail. It gets pretty granular.
But Booker T is in WWE was had it switched in?
I forget? Was it still wwfford it changed at that point?
Speaker 3: Go ahead, Eric to seeing the WWE switch happened in
two thousand and two.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, because time time gets fuzzy for me.
Speaker 18: Yeah it was. It was WWE at that time. It
was Matt was two thousand and three.
Speaker 1: Gotcha? Okay, gotcha? Gotcha.
Speaker 3: So if it was the infamous Booker T Triple H
Yes episode, then yes, it would have been two thousand
and three. And I want to say, as a Triple
H fan, that is one of the largest blemishes on
his career, hands down, that whole I remember watching it,
and I'm sorry to go into the woods here. I
remember watching it and being at at twenty years old,
being uncomfortable.
Speaker 1: Yeah, watching.
Speaker 3: Yes you I mean, sorry to say this, but he
stopped short of calling Booker t boy.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was definitely, uh, there was some definitely some
racial overtones h to the dialogue the Triple Hs spoke
and and it was not subtle. You know, maybe it
was intended to be, and maybe from Vince McMahon's perspective
it was, but but it was not you know what
I mean, But but it was it was not subtle.
And I thought that, David, I thought that that was
a perfect way to open the book, talking about that
specific promo and that storyline, and and of course for
wrestling fans who are are familiar with that, that whole uh,
that whole angle, we know that uh the hero did
not prevail uh at uh at WrestleMania and did not
win the title, which a lot of people at the
time thought was a mistake, and many people still think
that was a mistake. But I'm curious, David, when you
when you open the book with that, was it was
it obvious to you that that was the one to
go with or or did you have to kind of
make a decision because maybe there's I mean, if you
were to ask me about a racially tinged to put
it lightly angle in in you know, quote unquote modern
day WWE. I would that's probably the first one I
would think of. But I'm curious, I mean, were there
other Were there other options as far as what the
opening scene was going to be in the book to
kind of to kind of set up the book.
Speaker 9: No, not at all, because the title of the book
is Pro Wrestling Black World Champions. So when somebody is
saying someone like you doesn't deserve to be a champion,
and a white guy is saying that to a black guy,
that was there was no other choice.
Speaker 18: That was the appropriate text to use for this.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, no, No, that makes sense, that's perfect. Yeah. Yeah,
And you know in Booker T is such a great
talent too, and he was you know that I used
to love that catchphrase five times, five times, five times
world champion and which he.
Speaker 18: Actually said six times that promo.
Speaker 1: You do you pointed that out in the book, Yeah,
which was great.
Speaker 3: Eaved a question, And actually I wanted something to the
Booker T story. I've actually heard through various shoot interviews
that Rick Flair had.
Speaker 7: A lot to do with that promo.
Speaker 1: That's interesting.
Speaker 9: Probably, I mean because Rick Rick was there in the
ring with Triple H though he didn't say anything, but
but he's there in his corner.
Speaker 7: I mean a lot of There are a few African
Americans that have said and even.
Speaker 3: Occasion wrestlers have said Rick Flair is by proxy a
very I don't want to say racist individual, but definitely
has said racist statements. And I have heard that that
notorious promo Rick Flair kind of fed Triple H things
to say at the right.
Speaker 7: I think it was, I want to say, and I
could be wrong.
Speaker 3: I'm trying to recall on the spot here and memory
can serve you horribly.
Speaker 7: I wanted was Bruce Pritchard that said it on.
Speaker 3: Something to wrestle when they were talking about WrestleMania WrestleMania
twenty nineteen. I believe it was, yes, and I believe
he said that Vince and Rick were kind of.
Speaker 7: Behind that.
Speaker 1: Mmmm. Wouldn't surprise me. I suppose, what what do you say, David.
Speaker 18: Yeah, I haven't heard that, so I can't say whether
that was true or not. I do know.
Speaker 9: I'm a large segment of the black community really likes
Ric Flair. I mean, I don't truly think that Rick
would purposely try to insult, you know, it's fan.
Speaker 18: Base like that.
Speaker 1: But I don't know that is a good point you make, David,
because the hip hop community really in a big way,
strangely late in his career, but really embraced has embraced
Ric Flair in a lot of ways. So that's yeah,
that's that's an interesting point too. But but yeah, go
ahead of Eric Prais.
Speaker 7: By any stratch. Yeah, I say that, you know, and David,
I'm sure can that sound uh prog wrestling and.
Speaker 3: Up until I would say probably the late eighties when
WCW made Ron Simmons world champion was a good boys
network so to speak. It really wrestling has a very
complicated history with African.
Speaker 12: Americans and it's very sad. I mean to the point
where you had a very great talent in WWE named
bad News Brown.
Speaker 3: Yes that in Stampede Wrestling was an accolated wrestler.
Speaker 7: But when he Alan Cosage.
Speaker 3: But when he got to WWE, they made in this
militant African American from Harlem.
Speaker 7: I mean things like that, where you are guys that
were in Stampede that's like no, uh Brown could go.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he was his.
Speaker 7: Page in Stampede Historically.
Speaker 1: Uh, the stereotypes have played a heavy role in in uh,
in wrestling, and you know, I mean, I would say
until recently, I mean I think I think wrestling has
changed a lot, but but yeah, historically, uh, there has
been there's been a lot of stereotypes in professional wrestling. Absolutely.
Speaker 3: I guess my question for David is, in going through
all of that, did you was there ever, I guess
anger that rows up in you when you would I'm
sure in your research you encountered this. Was there ever
that anger that you're like, wow, Uh, this is awful,
this is horrible.
Speaker 7: I mean, there's long been the story of Bill Watts
in a bathroom dropping.
Speaker 3: That's about Junkyard Doll and Junkyard Dog heard the epithets
and that's what made him decide to leave for WWE.
Speaker 7: Then WW So, was there ever a sense of anger?
Speaker 3: And did it enhance your responsibility to get these stories out? No?
Speaker 18: Not at all.
Speaker 9: And I don't want to get off track, but I
really hate it when people are driven by negative energy.
Somebody told me I couldn't do something, so now I'm
gonna I'm about to prove them wrong. That's negative energy,
and I don't think that's sustainable, and I don't like.
My focus comes from my desire and what I want
to do. I don't care what anybody else has to say.
Speaker 18: My internal worth and internal value and my focus is
strong enough.
Speaker 9: I don't need somebody on the outside to make me
upset to make me want to do something or excel
in it. I really hate when people say I'm using
my haters as my motivators.
Speaker 18: No, I don't know.
Speaker 9: That's negative energy for me. Yeah, so no, that was
never really anything that drove me. And like you said,
I've been watching wrestling. I'm fifty five years old, almost
fifty six. I've been watching wrestling, uh all of my life.
So yes, I've seen a lot of those stories. I've
seen the racism. So it wasn't really anything that that
that really.
Speaker 18: Surprised me in a way that would make me really
upset about it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that makes sense because the book itself is very positive.
You know, you you tell that, you tell the story,
you you share the scene about a booker T and
Triple H to open the book, and then you you know,
you catalog all these all these African American wrestlers who
had become many world champions, or uh tag team champions
and so forth, and and it's a very positive read.
I I was Prettyarticularly I especially enjoyed the part about
Ron Simmons because I vividly remember watching that match on
television when Ron Simmons beat Vader for the world title,
and I just thought it was so cool, you know,
and they WCW at the time, you know, they they
did make a kind of a big deal about you know,
Ron Simmons is the first black World Champion. But it's
funny though, in the moment watching it, I wasn't even
thinking about that. I was just thinking because I was
I was a Ron Simmons fan, and it was a
surprise because he was substituting for was it was Sting, right,
it was supposed to be Sting. Yeah, So I thought
the whole thing was so cool, and I thought the
finish of that match was just really cool too. Just
everything about it was awesome, and I just remember I
popped for it watching it on television. But but that
was one of my favorite parts because that was a
moment that really connected with me. And then you know,
and of course, Ron Simmons went on to have a
great career eventually in wwue s for Rouke and you know,
just everything everything he went on to do was a
maz But but that was such a that was such
a huge moment, and uh and I love that and
and I love the way you you know, the way
you really took the time to go into a lot
of detail giving the histories. Some of these black wrestlers
were people I'd never even heard of, and some of them,
obviously I was very familiar with, and some I was
kind of familiar with, like Ernie Ladd for example. I
knew who Ernie lad was, didn't know much about him.
Pretty interesting guy, so I got to learn about him
reading your book. So but it's it's a very positive read.
Speaker 18: Yes, go ahead.
Speaker 3: I'm sorry, David, I'm I just wanted to say, I'm
shocked that there hasn't been something more in depth done
about Earning Lad.
Speaker 7: Just you want to talk about not just.
Speaker 3: To say call him an African American pro wrestling champion
is in in my opinion, it trivializes him because he
is paramount in the territory days.
Speaker 2: He is equally.
Speaker 3: A top I would say, top ten talent all time
in the territory days.
Speaker 7: If it wasn't for him.
Speaker 3: You, I don't think Mid South wrestling is anywhere near
as successful as it was. Him and Jyde carried that
promotion because if they were the top faces and to
get heals over like the free Birds, Teddbasi and all
those guys, you need powerhouse faces.
Speaker 7: And Ernie Ladd just you talk about a presence. Even
watching the old deep footage.
Speaker 3: I have of him, he walks into the arena and
your eyes are just drawn him. You're captivated, and he
doesn't even have to say a word. So it's shocking
to me that no one has done anything like book
like major book wise or documentary wise on him. And
to piggyback on what David said, I think it's because
pro wrestling fans we have a tendency to focus on
negative and there was a lot of negative with Ernie
Ladd there. You couldn't do a dark side of the
ring on Big Yeah. You don't hear guys and shoot
interviews go off about Ernie Ladd was horrible. Ernie Ladd
did this, so there isn't the notorious draw. But man,
you talk about a talent and a guy that could
guy could probably wrestle a plastic bag and sell out
the Sportatorium.
Speaker 1: Yeah right, Yeah. Like I said, I've always been kind
of aware of him, but I didn't know much about
him until reading and reading the book.
Speaker 7: Ernie.
Speaker 3: Ernie Ladd is one of those guys that the word
it is thrown around.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, David, I'm what you're saying.
Speaker 18: I mean, just his his physical presence.
Speaker 9: He was so imposing just walking into an arena, and
and and of course then he would tell you I'm
six foot nine, three pounds, you know, dis intimidating his
words and his promos.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no doubt. I'm curious, boy, David, David, I'm
curious who who did you research for the book? Who
who's included in the book? Who you think are and
there may be multiple examples, uh, the one who you
are surprised that people don't know more about? Is there
anyone in the book who you feel like, Wow, this
person really contributed a lot to professional wrestling, and it's
actually surprising that that people don't know more about this individual,
or that they're not in the WWE Hall of Fame
for example, or or any anybody. Do you feel that
way about?
Speaker 9: Not really, I would I would say, well, Ernie Ladd
for one, because the one thing that I didn't know
about Ernie in the beginning was that in the Mid South,
Ernie was the first African American booker.
Speaker 18: Oh okay, it was not only a wrestler. I mean
that shows the kind of confidence that Bill Watts had
in him to let him be a booker. Yeah, he
was the first.
Speaker 9: So yet that surprised me. I would guess also in
modern times now, I don't think people people understand Ron
Killings are true now. I think they see the comedy side,
and that's what Wwe wants him to keep portraying this
this comedic person. But Ron Killings was like the first
African American to have that nw A title, true, and
I don't think people know that. And so, you know,
and I thought he was going they were gonna let
him be run Killings when he came out and cut
his hair and everything and said, you know, put some
respect on my name.
Speaker 18: I'm run Killings. I'm not a joke.
Speaker 9: And all of a sudden they killed that angle because
it sounded really like it was a shoot at first,
and it may have been.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they have I don't think they have any plan
with what they're doing with him. Which is a which
is a terrible shame because he's incredible. He's incredibly talented.
Speaker 3: I yes, I just wanted to throw in I agree
on killings in TNA, like people are like, oh, truth
is so funny, Truth is so funny, and it's like.
Speaker 7: Truth can work.
Speaker 5: Yeah, you know.
Speaker 3: So I used to watch the TNA weekly pay per
views every week when you had to run for nine
to ninety nine, and he had matches with aj Styles
and you tell people that and they're like, okay, so
what was it like a five to seven minute match,
And oh well no, they were for ten fifteen minutes
in a one hour, two hour program and they mayn't
event it and they tore.
Speaker 7: The grounds down.
Speaker 3: So he I think right now, I dare say, Ron
aren't truth has a very complicated legacy, and it's not
his fault. We'll just see the comedy guy. And they
blew sight of the matches he had with guys like
Jeff Jarrett, raven A, j Stoneles, Christopher Daniels.
Speaker 7: Near the end of it NA, Ron, him and Christopher.
Speaker 3: Daniels had a thirty minute iron Man match on pay
per view that should have been a top match that year.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely, Yeah, there's a lot to there's
a lot to ron killings that a lot of fans
don't realize, and you know, and to be able to
still perform in the ring at what is he now,
fifty three? I think that's pretty impressive too. But yeah,
he obviously takes care of himself, right, Yeah, he deserves.
Speaker 7: He deserves a lot better than what he's getting.
Speaker 1: Oh, I agree, I absolutely agree, David. Are their plans
for a fourth edition of this? Because obviously over time,
you know, in theory, you know, you can keep adding
people to this, right I mean, is do you have
plans for a fourth edition? Or I don't know if
you're thinking that far ahead. It's I mean, it's it's
a lot to do, I know, but.
Speaker 9: Yeah, right right now, I don't because, like you were saying,
I mean, it's it's something that can keep going on
and on and unless it's something really compelling. At least
in my thought right now, I thought the only thing
that could be added was the tag team champion. So
I added those all black tag teams and I thought, okay,
that's that's kind of.
Speaker 18: Going to put the punctuation on it.
Speaker 9: And but yeah, so no, I don't have any plans
right now for a fourth edition, but you never.
Speaker 1: Know, right right, by the way, so this is not
this is not your first book or while it's a
third edition, but I mean you've you've written other books,
right can you? Can you tell us too this a
little bit because I'm curious to learn more about your background, because,
as I said, you know, you're an author and journal
You've you've done a lot of other things too. I
was looking at your website and I'm curious about more
about your career in a broader sense.
Speaker 9: Yes, well, I used to be an active reporter. I
was a newspaper reporter and also a college radio news
director when I was when I was actually in college,
I was fortunate that my internship turned into a job
even before I had graduated. My internship at the radio
station in Columbia, South Carolina turned into a job for me.
And so for the last twenty years, I've been a
journalism professor because you don't really you didn't really make
a lot of money being a journalist until you get,
you know, to the level of NBC, NASH, ABC, you know,
one of the national networks, not really making a whole
lot of money uh, and not that it's about money.
Speaker 18: Because you know, you should do what you enjoy doing.
Speaker 9: But yeah, so I've been a college professor for the
last twenty years. I have a PhD in communication. So yeah,
that's that's that's sort of men in an overview.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 18: One of my books is Public Enemy number one. Public
Enemy number one started as my master's thesis.
Speaker 9: It was on the group Public Enemy, and also wrote yes, yes,
that was a research study on.
Speaker 18: A couple of their music videos.
Speaker 1: Oh wow, that sounds like something actually. I think Eric
and I both would be interested in reading that. Very
very cool. Huh.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Enemy fan Fight the Power yep video directed by
Spike Lee.
Speaker 7: I'm a big Spike Lee fan as well. Yeah, okay,
films of Spike Lee.
Speaker 12: Yeah.
Speaker 1: When this show was on in afternoons and we were
doing a lot of politics. When I was an afternoon drive,
I would Fight the Power was one of my go tos.
I I would play that often quite often. Absolutely. Oh
that's very cool, very interesting, David. Wow.
Speaker 18: Yeah, and have you guys heard of Dolomite?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 9: Oh, yes, the Annie Murphy movie on Netflix that came
out I think in twenty nineteen.
Speaker 7: Love that movie.
Speaker 3: David, before you get into that, when Matt was on
Afternoon Drive, I would do a segment called classic Film Reviews.
We and for in February we would do a black
History sega where I covered African American films.
Speaker 7: We actually covered Shaft and.
Speaker 3: Superfly, and that did a lot of conversation that I
thought was very good.
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, yeah, there was because there was some disagreement,
not between Eric and I or anything, but but it
was sort of externally there was some disagreement about whether
those were even appropriate choices. And yeah, it did. It
did spark a lot of conversation that there was very
positive and constructive. I think it was. It was very good.
So so now I'm curious, David, So what led you
into being a pro wrestling fan. How did you become
because you, I assume since you were a kid, right,
I feel like most of us get hooked on this one.
We're children.
Speaker 18: Oh yeah, yeah, I grew up a fan.
Speaker 9: I mean my family watched it, so it was always
in the household. Mom, dead, grandmother, I mean.
Speaker 18: Everybody watched professional wrestling. So yeah, it's a little lifelong
thing for me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I got hooked when Saturday Nights main event
premiered on NBC and I watched the first one. You know,
I had seen wrestling before that, I was never particularly
into it up until that point. Then I'd seen Saturday
as my main event, and something about it hooked me.
In fact, I remember one of the matches. It was
a squash match. It was Junkyard Dog throwing this guy around.
I have no recollection of who his opponent was, and
I just remember saying to my friend, well, this is interesting.
He's just beating the heck out of that guy. And
I think the I think the big angle that night
was the Battle Royal, Hogan and Andre having their confrontation
in the Big Battle Royal. But but yeah, that was
that was what hooked me. And then you know, I've
I've been hooked on it ever since, and now Eric
and I even do a podcast together about it called
Tough Pumps. But did, I mean, did you ever, like
when you started your career in journalism, did you already
have ideas about writing writing books like this, actually writing
about pro wrestling.
Speaker 18: No, not at all.
Speaker 9: And like I said, this was really just kind of
trying to further my brother's legacy in this and and
you know this wasn't something that he was really into
as well in terms of writing his his books at
the time was.
Speaker 18: Hip hop related.
Speaker 9: Uh he wrote The United States versus Hip Hop when
they were looking at Public Enemy and uh luke two
Live Crew and and and n.
Speaker 18: W A and those guys and and there was.
Speaker 9: Of course nobody confirmed or denied it, which is the
FBI's favorite word. But that was you know that they
sent they allegedly sent a letter to them, a warning
letter to the record labels about uh, those groups. And
so that was a huge censorship thing, like wait a minute,
you can't you can't do that. So that was the
kind of stuff that my brother was writing about, and
he started he wrote that first book in nineteen ninety nine.
It came out in nineteen ninety nine. He started working
on it in nineteen ninety eight because Bobo Brazil died
earlier that year, and then when Jyd died in like
July of that year, it.
Speaker 18: Touched him so much that he started doing the research
and wrote that book.
Speaker 1: Okay, okay, so that led you to carrying on that legacy.
That's that's remarkable, now, do you I mean, how dialed
in are you to the current product. Do you do
you watch every week? Do you keep up with everything
or you know, are you are you a somewhat lapsed
fan like some people are, or what's what's your current
level of engagement with wrestling?
Speaker 18: I try to keep up with it as much as
I can.
Speaker 9: I'm obviously not able to watch all of the shows,
especially with with with a W back out.
Speaker 18: There now and you know, with having competition, but I
I do try to try to keep up as much
as I can.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's so much content now, I can't. You know,
Jenny and I watch it every week, but we can't.
We can't keep up with all of it, and we don't.
We don't even touch ae W unless something happens that
we're particularly interested in, you know, because I try to
keep keep up with everything online. But as far as
what we're actually watching, it's yeah, it is. It's a lot.
It's a lot of content to keep up with. So
very good. Oh go ahead, Eric, Yes.
Speaker 7: Question for David.
Speaker 3: Anytime I encounter a pro wrestling fan when they're new,
I like asking one question, So I hope you don't mind.
What is your earliest fondest memory a professional wrestling?
Speaker 1: Good question?
Speaker 9: I would have to say when I saw in person
rufus R Freight Train Jones wrestle. I always liked him
as a kid, and I got an opportunity. They came
to a Y M c A in my hometown and
I got the rare opportunity to see him wrestle, and
and that was great for me and the he was
wrestling the Great Kabuki. Fans now may see the I
can't think of the female's name now, the Japanese female
now who spits uh.
Speaker 18: Oscar?
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, that came from the.
Speaker 9: Great Kobuki who used to spit that mist in the
person's eyes.
Speaker 18: And you know I saw them wrestle and that was
that was like my earliest memory.
Speaker 7: Yeah, oh very good, very good, said the Great Kabuki.
Speaker 3: Because out of here so many times per wrestling fans
say the Great Muda when they talk about the Green
mess or to Jerry, and it's like and me, I,
I don't want to toot my own horn. I am
I feel like a pro wrestling historian. I always say, no,
it was the Great Kabuki that first did the Green
mess YEP and World Championship Wrestling in Mid South when
he did the when he did that it wasn't.
Speaker 7: It wasn't great mood A.
Speaker 3: Mooda stole it from Kabuki, right right right, thank you
great Kabuki.
Speaker 1: Well, guys, this has been this has been wonderful. The
time does go quickly. We are beginning to approach the
top of the hour. But David, I want to make
sure everyone knows again where'sh where's the best place to
keep up with everything that you're doing, And of course
the book Black Gold Discover Pro Wrestling's Black World Champions
the third edition which is currently available, where people can
get that anything you want our listeners to know about
how to find you and follow you and connect with you.
Speaker 18: Probably the best way is my website which is David L.
Shabaz and my name is there.
Speaker 9: So just just put an L in at s h
A b a z z dot com because that's a
central hub and you can find out about me.
Speaker 18: I have a little about section.
Speaker 9: There and all of my titles as a book titles
that is as well as if they want to order it.
You can order the book from the website and it
has different online options, whether you want Amazon, the Barnes
and Noble, or my author's website where you can get it,
which is actually a little cheaper. I have a different
distributor who does that one, so it's it's it's actually
a little cheaper than the other routes. But uh yeah,
through my website is probably the easiest way. But it's
it's available online and in bookstores everywhere.
Speaker 1: Oh, excellent, excellent, Well, thank you so much for joining
us this morning. We really appreciate it. David L. Schabaz,
The book is great. I love the book, and uh
and Eric, I appreciate you co hosting with me for
the segment.
Speaker 3: I just feel like it was awesome to talk with
someone that, I mean, really understands the history of pro wrestling.
You can tell it's a labor a love, and I
love what I really like what you said about not
about not being not going negative because pro wrestling. Matt
and I have said this on our podcast several times.
In pro wrestling, I think we're we're even guilty of it.
We focus on the negative because negative equals notorious and notorious.
People love the notorious side of pro wrestling. But it
isn't all bad, you know there, It isn't all awful
there for every you know, I hate to bring them
up for every Chris Ben Moah, there's.
Speaker 7: There's twenty to thirty John Cena's and you.
Speaker 3: It's magical, it's captivating, and the moments you have chosen
to encapsulate, such as Ernie Ladd and.
Speaker 7: Champions like Booker t and.
Speaker 3: Ron Killings and Jy are so important to professional wrestling,
and the way that you've chosen to do it with
such positivity only helps better the industry that I love.
Speaker 9: So thank you for that, David, Oh, no problem, thank you,
I mean, And that's that that was the spirit that
my brother started with. I mean when he when he
wrote it, it was trying to be celebratory of the wrestlers,
and people were asking him at the time questions about
racism and that kind of thing, and he was like, this,
this is this book is not about.
Speaker 18: Racism and wrestling.
Speaker 9: It's just trying to praise those wrestlers and give them
their credit. Because that's that was his initial drive. He
saw childhood heroes like Bobo Brazil and Jyd they just died,
you know, and and it's like there's very little coverage,
like nobody's saying anything about it, and so that's what
started him writing. It's always been in that spirit of
positivity and just trying to shed light and trying to
enlighten people.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, that is excellent.
Speaker 7: Negativity in anything. It's easy to it's easy to be.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 7: Yeah, the positivity of it is amazing.
Speaker 3: And really, uh again, just I've loved this entire interview
with you to hear the the positive view and the
fact that you brought up Ernie Ladd being an African
American booker, not just in mid Now, but in general.
Speaker 7: It just adds to the mystique of Ernie Ladd. So, David,
maybe if I can put a little idea in your
head Ernie Ernie book.
Speaker 9: I'll consider it. He definitely is one of those compelling figures.
And you know, and and he and several other guys
around that period. You know, they wrestled initially in the
off season to stay in shape for football, but Ernie
said he made more money in wrestling, so that's why
he stopped playing football exactly.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know that was that was interesting. That is
in the book, and uh yeah, I thought that was
pretty interesting. Well, we gotta we gotta wrap up this segment, guys.
But again, the book is called Pro Wrestling's Black World,
Champions third edition. David El Shabaz, thank you so much
for joining us and we'll definitely talk again in the future.
This has been wonderful. Thank you so much.
Speaker 18: Thank you for having me. I really appreciate you got it,
You got it.
Speaker 1: And Eric, as always, thank you, my friend.
Speaker 7: Yes, thank you, Matt, thank you, David.
Speaker 1: All Right, guys, thank you and uh for those of
you listening live, stick around. We got plenty more to come.
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