Speaker 1: Welcome to reader Syndicate three point zero, the next evolution
Speaker 1: of look into counterculture that is Canaa. My name is Matthew,
Speaker 1: owner of Riot Seeds, and this started as a one
Speaker 1: man mission for strain history and breeding science. Over time
Speaker 1: it's evolved into something bigger, better, and more of a
Speaker 1: team effort. We will be joined by members of the
Speaker 1: can Illuminati and other friends. Throughout the seasons hear their
Speaker 1: takes on grow techniques, breeding science, string history and more.
Speaker 1: Our mission is to combat the narrative that corporate cannabis
Speaker 1: and seed posters are obfuscating for their own financial benefit.
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Speaker 1: Has the schedule one, schedule three stuff going on right now?
Speaker 1: Or it's you know, kind of lying in both areas
Speaker 1: as any of that affected how you guys do business?
Speaker 1: Is that something you're paying more attention to specifically for
Speaker 1: any reason?
Speaker 3: Uh No, not directly yet. I think some ideas that
Speaker 3: I've heard floating around are like, Okay, if it's scheduled three,
Speaker 3: then has to have you know, proven medicinal value. Maybe
Speaker 3: you can you know, find DNA markers related to these
Speaker 3: plants with proven medicinal value, and because other plants have
Speaker 3: those markers, then they would maybe be like allowed plants.
Speaker 1: But it's just objective, like whether something has medicinal value
Speaker 1: based on brain chemistry?
Speaker 3: Yeah, certainly, Yeah, how you define that? I mean there's yeah,
Speaker 3: there's the colloquially colloquial recognition of medicinal value that I
Speaker 3: think the cannabis community has relied on. But then there's
Speaker 3: like the whole you know, FDA researched and clinical trial
Speaker 3: products and stuff sences.
Speaker 1: I've kept up on a bunch of that, and it's
Speaker 1: still like the kind of idea that all sativas do
Speaker 1: this and all indicas do this, and you know that
Speaker 1: there's no plasticity. They don't take that into account of
Speaker 1: any kind of clone, like where it's grown, how it's grown,
Speaker 1: how it expresses.
Speaker 3: It's been.
Speaker 1: It's been quite interesting to watch science try to work
Speaker 1: its way into cannabis and not understand sourcing, how that's done,
Speaker 1: how unreliable some people are for sourcing from and then
Speaker 1: taking into account the plasticity, even if you can source
Speaker 1: the correct clone and then bring chemistry for whether it's
Speaker 1: medically viable for that particular individual based on how it
Speaker 1: has grown. You know, like there's so many factors that
Speaker 1: that I kind of watch for, and a lot of
Speaker 1: these medical talks and as things are changing schedule and
Speaker 1: when I talk to people in labs or let's see,
Speaker 1: like doctor Danielle at Virgar, I'm not sure if you're
Speaker 1: familiar with her. She was working at one of the
Speaker 1: universities it's escaping me. It's one of the big ones
Speaker 1: that was doing cannabis research. And the one thing I
Speaker 1: realized was that there is there are a lot of
Speaker 1: variables that breeders and longtime growers kind of have a
Speaker 1: better grasp of, but they're not really talking to them.
Speaker 1: They're talking to the people who are the most marketable,
Speaker 1: like the guys in high times that pay for ads,
Speaker 1: and those are who the first people that they were
Speaker 1: hearing about, so they go to them. And that's I
Speaker 1: don't know, it's been a it's been an interesting walk,
Speaker 1: and I didn't know how it would affect your guys's
Speaker 1: business model. Yeah, do you guys, can you develop a
Speaker 1: test for plasticity in a plant?
Speaker 3: I don't know how you would like like plasticity and
Speaker 3: what like. There's there's there's tests for like chromodygosity, heterozygosity
Speaker 3: and that like kind of like determines like and people
Speaker 3: people will refer to that as like how stable the
Speaker 3: plant line is or how like reproducible it is. I guess.
Speaker 1: That's referring to like a line. And I've seen like
Speaker 1: filos make very bad attempts at this and they ended
Speaker 1: up shutting down a lot of their testing. Me and
Speaker 1: if you I'll just say, other readers were submitting you know,
Speaker 1: like a mother clone and then the parent or the
Speaker 1: siblings thereof, and sometimes s one siblings or self siblings.
Speaker 1: They should be directly related. And they what we learned
Speaker 1: over time was that they were doing short reads and
Speaker 1: for some reason couldn't quite tell exactly what was related
Speaker 1: to what. But they would tell us with much confidence that, oh, no,
Speaker 1: our results are right, you're wrong. You need to you know,
Speaker 1: resend stuff in. So people spent the money resent stuff in,
Speaker 1: made sure rechecked every source and and made sure all
Speaker 1: the tags were correct, and kept running into that with
Speaker 1: the short read versus long read. Is that something that
Speaker 1: you run into with your work, like in the qPCR
Speaker 1: testing short read versus long read?
Speaker 3: No, that's all like related to like sequencing and and
Speaker 3: and assembling of you know the results of that sequencing.
Speaker 3: What we do is we have very specific segments of
Speaker 3: DNA that we that we look for. Yeah, we're not
Speaker 3: doing any sequencing or uh readouts of the plant DNA
Speaker 3: that that we get. We're just seeing, you know, can
Speaker 3: we detect this this marker or not.
Speaker 1: Have you considered getting into the sequencing part.
Speaker 3: It's not. Uh, we haven't had like real demand for that.
Speaker 3: I think Farmer Freeman like primarily serves like pheno hunters, homegrowers.
Speaker 3: I mean, we definitely serve you know, breeders and breeders
Speaker 3: that are big names and like the classical cannabis industry
Speaker 3: you could call it, but not like these firms that
Speaker 3: are investing millions into you know, plant line and stuff
Speaker 3: like that. We we refer people to medicinal genomics when
Speaker 3: they want more information about their plants.
Speaker 1: I think that's a good reference.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I'm getting back to I guess the switch
Speaker 3: to scheduled three, I mean the I think the only
Speaker 3: impact for us would be if that if that reduces
Speaker 3: people's ability to grow, then that'll have a downstream effect
Speaker 3: on our company. Yeah, we'll just have fewer customers.
Speaker 1: That I think.
Speaker 3: It's pretty unclear like what I think. There's just a
Speaker 3: lot of speculation on like what is going to happen.
Speaker 3: I don't know if anyone really has like a a
Speaker 3: game plan, like, I don't know. I don't think there's
Speaker 3: a master conspiracy of like we're taking cannabis this direction. Ah, So.
Speaker 1: It's been interesting.
Speaker 3: I'm worried about that as much as we are, like
Speaker 3: the changing definition of hemp and you know, regulation of
Speaker 3: seeds and stuff like that that's more directly affecting us.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, I don't know how it's going
Speaker 1: to go. You know, we get a lot of questions
Speaker 1: about that, and it's just a lot of it's up
Speaker 1: in the air. It's very wishy washy. And then finding
Speaker 1: out that it is still in Schedule one and Schedule
Speaker 1: three depending, you know, that that's been rather confusing and
Speaker 1: I think needs to be better defined. But I think
Speaker 1: it was sold as you know, like in some people's minds, Oh,
Speaker 1: finally real legalization, and I don't know that they understand
Speaker 1: it's going to affect the homegrower in a probably more
Speaker 1: restricted way in my opinion.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, it's it's more legalization and more rights if
Speaker 3: you're using Schedule three cannabis, which not all cannabis will Yeah,
Speaker 3: the Schedule three cannabis that will only come from producers
Speaker 3: and dispensaries who you know, are signed up with the
Speaker 3: DA and whatnot.
Speaker 1: Yeah, DA is middle manning the the the sale of
Speaker 1: bud now, which is.
Speaker 3: Which is wild. I think I think they middleman the
Speaker 3: sale of all drugs.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I.
Speaker 3: Think it makes sense for them to do that. If
Speaker 3: if this is how we're going to classify medical cannabis
Speaker 3: now mm hmm. But yeah, but but you know it's
Speaker 3: this it's the same freaking plant. In most cases, it's
Speaker 3: the same product from those plants. But it's just a
Speaker 3: an artificial designator of legal or not. You know, are
Speaker 3: you protected if you use this one or that one? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Yeah, all based on licensing and other regulations.
Speaker 3: We do get asked a lot, like with the hemp,
Speaker 3: just going to call it the hemp band. You know,
Speaker 3: we're going to be in business. You know, we started
Speaker 3: our company before the twenty eighteen farm bill, Like you know,
Speaker 3: we're we're going to be here long after. Yeah, you
Speaker 3: know that that calling that that defining hemp with under
Speaker 3: point three percent, you see, like that was super convenient
Speaker 3: for us, but it's not necessary for our business. Like
Speaker 3: we have like when you submit a sample to us,
Speaker 3: like most people are sending a small piece of leaf,
Speaker 3: but you know there's other ways, like of you know,
Speaker 3: they don't have to submit leaf. They can just send
Speaker 3: us like an extraction of that leaf like the just
Speaker 3: the DNA and you know, we're confident and we'll be
Speaker 3: able to continue to operate.
Speaker 4: Yeah, which you about that you provide a smash card
Speaker 4: that actually does it's not a complicated task to to
Speaker 4: do the extraction method of testing.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, So that's one of our our avenues of
Speaker 3: getting the DNA samples to our lab is we have
Speaker 3: this like it's like a relatively thick piece of paper
Speaker 3: and you smash the leaf onto that and scrape off
Speaker 3: any excess like physical material, and then you're just left
Speaker 3: with like a stained piece of paper that has you know,
Speaker 3: juice in it. Again, it's from a plant that's not
Speaker 3: making THHC. It's you would never know what plant it
Speaker 3: is from. Yeah, yeah. And then combine that with the
Speaker 3: fact that we can test more than just cannabis, like
Speaker 3: we have a fig tree sex test, so you know,
Speaker 3: there could be ways for us to like kind of
Speaker 3: combine the two tests and never know what type of
Speaker 3: plant you're sending us. So yeah, yeah, we've thought about
Speaker 3: this where we're not worried. Our payment processor is not worried. Yeah,
Speaker 3: it's good.
Speaker 1: And so you do do you were talking about figs, what
Speaker 1: other kind of plants are you testing?
Speaker 3: We can do FIG and Kiwi right now. We in
Speaker 3: the past month we've been revamping our FIG test to
Speaker 3: get it on the like same place platform is the
Speaker 3: Cannabis Sex Test, so that'll like you know, reduce the
Speaker 3: costs and speed up the turnaround time for that test.
Speaker 3: So that's great. And then we get inquiries for other plants,
Speaker 3: usually just specialty fruit trees per Simon mulberry, there's a
Speaker 3: Chinese brayberry. And as we get these inquiries, we kind
Speaker 3: of figure out, like, is it worth our time to
Speaker 3: pursue this. Do we think there's a big enough market,
Speaker 3: And yeah, we're always open to those inquiries. I can't
Speaker 3: guarantee that we will make a test, but we do
Speaker 3: add it to a list and and and check up
Speaker 3: on it every now and then. Yeah, some of these plants,
Speaker 3: like fig, you know, it'll take years for it to
Speaker 3: show it secks, you know, so it's pretty pretty big savings,
Speaker 3: huge time saving. But yeah, I don't know, we're actively
Speaker 3: exploring this because you know, our lab isn't you know,
Speaker 3: unique to cannabis. It's just a general molecular biology lab.
Speaker 3: So we yeah, we have these tools we can use
Speaker 3: them for a lot of different purposes, and we want
Speaker 3: to ideally we'd have somebody in here like twenty four
Speaker 3: hours a day just running whatever test people are interested in.
Speaker 5: Yeah, do you do you think there's a future where
Speaker 5: there is kind of like a a at.
Speaker 4: Home like a pregnancy test type of thing for you know,
Speaker 4: even like a simplified is there why you know type
Speaker 4: of deal.
Speaker 3: Uh, yeah, I mean there's a there's definitely like at
Speaker 3: home test kits. None of them are as simple as
Speaker 3: a pregnancy test. They all require some amounts of like
Speaker 3: equipment and uh preparation and processing. And because of that,
Speaker 3: like the accuracy can vary. It's it's generally less accurate
Speaker 3: than sending it to a lab like ours where we're
Speaker 3: running qPCR. These at home test kits for sex or
Speaker 3: hot light and viroid, they generally are more susceptible to
Speaker 3: like contamination and of you know, it's the leaf surface
Speaker 3: hasn't been aid with any kind of folios or ipms
Speaker 3: like that could affect the test, and you're just getting
Speaker 3: less data from those tests. So like a negative result
Speaker 3: from that test, you could interpret that as the samples clean,
Speaker 3: but it could also just be that the test didn't work,
Speaker 3: and so because of that, like you know, we we
Speaker 3: don't recommend it for most people. And also, I mean
Speaker 3: we we try to price our in lab testing, you know,
Speaker 3: low enough that it doesn't really make sense to like
Speaker 3: buy all that equipment and you know that the upfront
Speaker 3: costs of trying to get your own things set up.
Speaker 1: Were you asking about testing baby sex screw?
Speaker 4: No, No, like a.
Speaker 1: Child be interesting?
Speaker 4: No of of plants, but added at home version, were
Speaker 4: it's just positive or negative for I don't know something.
Speaker 3: Yeah, like like that exists, Like I know to Me
Speaker 3: has a product called like to me Glow for in
Speaker 3: house testing of hot lat and viroid. Medicine Genomics has
Speaker 3: their UPCR system. We've used that. We were running that
Speaker 3: commercially for a little bit, but it just has these
Speaker 3: like pitfalls that we felt like weren't. Uh you know,
Speaker 3: there's just better, better options out there for commercial testing
Speaker 3: and testing of a wide variety of samples.
Speaker 1: Okay, get back to the baby testing, because now that
Speaker 1: just triggered it could use. Is there a way to
Speaker 1: test the sex of a baby based on the technology
Speaker 1: you have there?
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, there's I just went through this in the
Speaker 3: past eighteen months. So I have a one year old now,
Speaker 3: but when we were pregnant, they do DNA screening on
Speaker 3: the fetus, uh to determine sex and all sorts of
Speaker 3: different genetic risk factors you know, related to human development,
Speaker 3: and that helps you determine the safety of your pregnancy
Speaker 3: and things like that. So yeah, like that's generally like
Speaker 3: these these genetic panels that your doctor orders for pregnant
Speaker 3: people will have like a sex add on. Some families requested,
Speaker 3: others like to be surprised. We we did it. It
Speaker 3: was cool. It was you know, similar to the service
Speaker 3: I offer. We we got an email like your results
Speaker 3: are ready click through, and we we found out that
Speaker 3: we're having a boy. And I know there's one brand
Speaker 3: that you do do it at home and send a
Speaker 3: sample to a lab rather than like going to lab
Speaker 3: Corp And doing a whole blood drawer or whatever. Yeah, peekaboo.
Speaker 3: And yeah, I don't know how much it costs, probably
Speaker 3: just one hundred bucks or so. And yeah, you can
Speaker 3: determine the sex of your your your unborn.
Speaker 1: That is really cool.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I don't know why that I twisted that question into that,
Speaker 1: but yeah, that's fascinating.
Speaker 3: No, it's cool, and we so companies like Peekaboo Ancestry.
Speaker 3: There's a company for like cat DNA called base Pause. Uh,
Speaker 3: we kind of consider ourselves like in the same realm
Speaker 3: as those companies. You know, we all test different organisms,
Speaker 3: but essentially it's the same. It's like you take some
Speaker 3: kind of DNA sample or tissue sample and send it
Speaker 3: to a lab and and get results based on that.
Speaker 3: And so we look at those companies too to help
Speaker 3: get ideas on like sample submission methods and results delivery methods,
Speaker 3: and it's it's neat being in that in this industry.
Speaker 1: I'm glad you told me about bass Pause. I just
Speaker 1: got a kitten and that's could actually be really helpful.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's super cool. I got it for my
Speaker 3: brother's cat for for Christmas, and he determined that his
Speaker 3: cat is a main coon, which was pretty.
Speaker 1: That yeah Pause and the ears and everything, but.
Speaker 3: But it gave him like health data about his cats
Speaker 3: and like his cat and you know what risk factors
Speaker 3: his cat has. And yeah, it's just kind of a
Speaker 3: fun thing to do. We did it for our love
Speaker 3: to understand like what read our dog was. Uh, yeah,
Speaker 3: they're they're they're cool tests and yeah, normalizing you know,
Speaker 3: science and making science successible and useful to people, which
Speaker 3: is which is fantastic.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's really cool.
Speaker 3: Thank you for that.
Speaker 1: Okay, screw what you got.
Speaker 4: Uh so, what are you guys focusing? Like where do
Speaker 4: you where are you guys trying to like refine and progress?
Speaker 4: You had said that you wanted to get the other
Speaker 4: sex testing kids up to the same level of accurate
Speaker 4: see and whatnot that you guys have with, uh, with cannabis.
Speaker 4: What what other areas are you trying to you know,
Speaker 4: focus on or or trying to grow towards.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so, you know, we're always fielding enquiries for you know,
Speaker 3: plant types that we don't already have tests for, and
Speaker 3: if we can easily develop a test for those, that's great.
Speaker 3: You know, we like, if you google search like plant
Speaker 3: sex testing, you know, we're we're pretty high up there,
Speaker 3: and so we end up getting people like sending us
Speaker 3: leaves of plants that aren't cannabis, and maybe they just
Speaker 3: didn't understand that they need to specify what they're sending in.
Speaker 3: So so ultimately, like we'd like to be able to
Speaker 3: accept all sorts of different tissues. There's always like new
Speaker 3: pathogens popping up and being identified as potential threats to
Speaker 3: to cannabis. So we're we're always looking into, like, you know,
Speaker 3: new targets for that. Septoria is one that we're thinking
Speaker 3: of adding on for for hemp and cannabis. Understanding like
Speaker 3: limits of detection, Like can we like like how sensitive
Speaker 3: can the hop late and viraid test get, you know,
Speaker 3: could should we start running the HLVD tests on seedlings
Speaker 3: and maybe that'll prevent like issues later on. So we're
Speaker 3: pulling out like a bunch of Basically I found customers
Speaker 3: who had positive hop late and viroid tests and if
Speaker 3: they had tested seedlings you know, a year or eighteen
Speaker 3: months prior to that, I'm curious if any of those
Speaker 3: seedlings had hop late and viralid and maybe that could
Speaker 3: have tipped them off sooner than if they were wait,
Speaker 3: if they they obviously did wait and discover it later. Yeah,
Speaker 3: improving things like the FIG test, like that's what we're
Speaker 3: working on this week. Yeah, just generally using the equipment
Speaker 3: we have for more than just the cannabis sex test.
Speaker 4: So are you guys able to does it have to
Speaker 4: be seedlings or are you able to test actual seeds
Speaker 4: as they before. Someone you know, someone had a bunch
Speaker 4: of seed and we're like, man, I'm kind of worried
Speaker 4: and sent a fraction of the seed off to be tested.
Speaker 4: You know, would you guys be able to actually detect
Speaker 4: and test off of that material?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah, so we have some protocols for seed testing.
Speaker 3: It destroys the seeds, so there's like kind of a
Speaker 3: limited use for it. It's pretty much just like hemp
Speaker 3: breeders and hemp farmers or people growing fields of feminized
Speaker 3: cannabis seed, they'll send us some percentage of that seed
Speaker 3: stock and we can either test the seeds individually or
Speaker 3: like as a as a group and see if there's
Speaker 3: that male marker in those and if it's not, then
Speaker 3: then they can be assured that they're growing feminized seed.
Speaker 4: Well, I meant for h l V.
Speaker 3: Are are you guys able to test? I mean there's
Speaker 3: the same the same theory there.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's the big question of herms and I'm sure
Speaker 1: you get it all the time. How do I know
Speaker 1: if my plants are herm M? What's your response to that?
Speaker 3: So yeah, so we're working with medicinal genomics to figure
Speaker 3: out some kind of harm test that is, like our
Speaker 3: number one FAQ is, can this test tell me if
Speaker 3: my plants are herms? I'm not sure. It seems like
Speaker 3: pretty much all plants have the capacity to to herm
Speaker 3: or show the the phenotype that's not associated to their genotype,
Speaker 3: but that so maybe they all have the capacity to
Speaker 3: do that, but some are more likely to do that,
Speaker 3: and there might be genetic markers related to that, like susceptibility. Yeah,
Speaker 3: so that's something we're looking in too. We love when
Speaker 3: our customers tell us, like, hey, these plants ended up harming.
Speaker 3: We we then make a note of that and we
Speaker 3: we set those aside for further research with the goal
Speaker 3: of developing that HERM test. You know, it's frustrating because
Speaker 3: like a hermie plant, it doesn't always show a pollen
Speaker 3: sack and flowers on the same thing, which leads some
Speaker 3: customers to think that the results were like wrong, and
Speaker 3: that can be kind of challenging because it's like, you know,
Speaker 3: how do you tell a grower who's staring at phenotypically
Speaker 3: a male plant. Yeah, plant isn't.
Speaker 1: A male, it's just expressing male.
Speaker 3: They think you're an asshole, Yeah right, them a liar,
Speaker 3: but but but we do try our best to tell them.
Speaker 3: Like look like you know, maybe at some point that
Speaker 3: male plant will start growing a flower and you know
Speaker 3: it didn't have the Y chromosome that we associate with
Speaker 3: male genetically male plants.
Speaker 1: So that's that would be autoism AutoZone based, right, Like
Speaker 1: at that point.
Speaker 3: Uh, I'm not sure. So, so, like there was some
Speaker 3: research last year or the year before that was like
Speaker 3: basically showing like the sex determining genes aren't on the
Speaker 3: Y chromosome. So you know, there was some debate like, well,
Speaker 3: is the Y chromosome still a reliable marker for ye
Speaker 3: for sex. We think it is, you know, at least
Speaker 3: for genetic males. But but it's this whole thing a
Speaker 3: phenotype and genotypelake, Like what what do people recognize as
Speaker 3: males versus what are males?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 3: And I think that gets into you know, defining things
Speaker 3: for practical effect more so than scientific validity.
Speaker 1: Sure, and.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 3: Those definitions might have appropriate places depending on who's asking.
Speaker 3: H But yeah, we want a HERMEI test. We want
Speaker 3: people to tell us when their plants are herm so
Speaker 3: that we can just get more data, just work the
Speaker 3: development of that test.
Speaker 4: And so on that is, is there stuff uf that
Speaker 4: it is starting to be promising yet like things that
Speaker 4: you're you're starting to notice amongst a decent group or
Speaker 4: is there anything that you're you guys are kind of
Speaker 4: looking into specifically.
Speaker 3: We hoped to have a test by now the I
Speaker 3: guess the first couple of rounds of what we thought
Speaker 3: would be a working test weren't working out as we
Speaker 3: hoped they would. Yeah, so no, ETA is unknown still
Speaker 3: working alongside Midasontinomics to get that figured out. I think
Speaker 3: there's confidence that it's going to be possible, but I
Speaker 3: think it just takes like a pretty robust data set
Speaker 3: to to validate the task.
Speaker 4: It is that because uh, like there's you know, different
Speaker 4: routes that it that it could be. You know that
Speaker 4: it could express with male flower first like a clear
Speaker 4: defined thing like or at least a little bit more
Speaker 4: clear like a genetic sex test.
Speaker 6: Is Yeah, I don't know if that question made sense.
Speaker 3: No, I think it's like, yeah, I mean, it's just
Speaker 3: it's like, can the does the plant respond to like
Speaker 3: different environmental stimuli to then change what sex? What sex
Speaker 3: it's expressed, and you know how sensitive is it to
Speaker 3: that stimuli. I think the stimuli is all the same.
Speaker 3: I think it's just the presence of like ethylene.
Speaker 1: Ethylene or ethylene blocking.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know. Screw you know it's getting into that.
Speaker 3: That's more like for like the researchers. And frankly, I'm
Speaker 3: just a guy running a lab service. I'm not like
Speaker 3: doing a whole lot of research here on site. Like
Speaker 3: I I'm trained as a scientist, but the past years
Speaker 3: I've been customer service agent and manager for lab technicians.
Speaker 1: So you know, a test for being in to tell
Speaker 1: a plant that is more susceptible, like when making fem seeds,
Speaker 1: like most of us use a few different methods for
Speaker 1: reversing a plant, meaning making a female plant turn into
Speaker 1: a male to then produce pollen. And of course it
Speaker 1: never looks like a male when you're doing it. It actually
Speaker 1: keeps the blood shape of a female and a lot
Speaker 1: of times that it clusters too hard to even drop
Speaker 1: the pollen. But I would love a test that shows
Speaker 1: plants that are more likely to drop viable pollen versus
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, like not drop viable pollen
Speaker 1: because they all reverse almost I shouldn't say ninety nine
Speaker 1: point nine nine percent of plants I've seen, Like we
Speaker 1: did a three thousand plant reversal, and I think there
Speaker 1: was two that didn't reverse at all, and that was
Speaker 1: in hemp, which which I was even surprised to see
Speaker 1: that much. But there are plants that will reverse completely
Speaker 1: and just not drop pollen. And that's been like one
Speaker 1: of the key things for a lot of breeders of
Speaker 1: m seats is to try to find that method of
Speaker 1: action to know whether am I going to waste six
Speaker 1: thousand dollars this run just on electricity in a room
Speaker 1: and everything that goes into it, or is this going
Speaker 1: to be a successful reversal. So it like, is there
Speaker 1: a test for more susceptibility to ethylene blocking?
Speaker 3: Maybe you know when you run the like strain seek
Speaker 3: panels from medicinal Genomics, they might have some more insights
Speaker 3: related to that. But I don't think there's just like
Speaker 3: a one off test, yeah, for any kind of information
Speaker 3: like that. If there were, we would like to be
Speaker 3: running it. I'm interested to understand that better. It sounds
Speaker 3: like it's just not reaching a certain development milestone that
Speaker 3: allows it to open up that pollen sack. I guess.
Speaker 4: There was a paper where they like actually looked at
Speaker 4: the pollen grains from reversals versus like an actual male
Speaker 4: and they are all small, and a lot of them
Speaker 4: malformed instead of being like nice little orbs and giant.
Speaker 4: Like all of the male pollen is huge compared to
Speaker 4: all of the reversed and there's a lot that is
Speaker 4: just has malformed structures that make it just not work.
Speaker 3: Interesting. Yeah, yeah, I don't know much about that. I'm
Speaker 3: curious why that is. It makes me think of like
Speaker 3: one thing I have considered doing is like a pollen
Speaker 3: viability test like that with you guys' thoughts on that.
Speaker 3: Like basically, I think over time, like the pollen becomes
Speaker 3: unviable or like dead or something like that. And I'm
Speaker 3: pretty sure there's like like these stains, like these dyes
Speaker 3: that you can apply to the pollen that will maybe
Speaker 3: attach themselves only to the dead pollen cells and not
Speaker 3: the live ones, and you can kind of get like
Speaker 3: a rough count of like, okay, sixty percent of what
Speaker 3: I'm looking at is dead or non viable, and maybe
Speaker 3: you can compare that to like other samples and you know,
Speaker 3: determine the best group of pollen to use or or
Speaker 3: maybe that could be like a screening tool for like, hey,
Speaker 3: I received pollen from a different breeder and it's not working.
Speaker 3: Maybe this is why. Yeah, they're just kind of showcasing
Speaker 3: like your pollen health before you sell it or use it.
Speaker 1: All in storage is so just like even if you
Speaker 1: from freezing it to fridge to whatever, the variability in
Speaker 1: pollen life can go from days to a few months
Speaker 1: as best. I've seen some people claim years, but I've
Speaker 1: never had that experience or even anywhere close to it.
Speaker 1: Don't know what method of storage, but yeah, it's that's
Speaker 1: absolutely interesting because I know some breeders do sell palland
Speaker 1: or have tried, and I don't know that they've kept
Speaker 1: that model going for long because of different variability, especially
Speaker 1: in shipping too, like if depending on what time of
Speaker 1: the year, that stuff can get roasty toasty in the mailbox,
Speaker 1: you know, mm hmm.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I had a customer send me some pollen probably
Speaker 3: like five years ago now, and it's been in my freezer.
Speaker 3: I'll have the heart to like throw it out because
Speaker 3: it feels like offensive to that person who gifted it
Speaker 3: to me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I don't, and.
Speaker 3: So I guess my plan was like maybe experiment with
Speaker 3: it on this potential test or that would be cool.
Speaker 3: But it sounds like, based on your experience, there's no
Speaker 3: way that stuff's gonna work.
Speaker 1: Five years would be a stretch. It's not like for
Speaker 1: some reason, it's not like seed storage where like a
Speaker 1: freezer or fridge like definitely extend the life period of seeds,
Speaker 1: Like if stored correctly with no moisture in the dark,
Speaker 1: they will last, especially in the freezer, quite a long.
Speaker 1: I mean twenty thirty years, you know, And that's just
Speaker 1: based on the experience of people in the community how
Speaker 1: long they were able to do it, but maybe even longer.
Speaker 1: But yeah, pollen is a whole another play, and it's
Speaker 1: it's been devastating at times where you know, you go
Speaker 1: through the process of reversing a plant, then maybe you
Speaker 1: don't have the right receivers in there and you're like, okay,
Speaker 1: I'll just use this next round, and that next round
Speaker 1: could be two months away. So you take it. You
Speaker 1: make sure there's no uh anthers or anything from the
Speaker 1: male male flowers in it, make sure you get it
Speaker 1: all perfect, store it and freezer baggy, so there's no
Speaker 1: way you know, water crystals are getting in there and
Speaker 1: still just yeah, there's been some devastating.
Speaker 3: You know. I was thinking, like, there's surely, like I'm
Speaker 3: sure cannabis pollen's not completely unique and there might be
Speaker 3: comparable you know, plants or pollen from other plants, and
Speaker 3: maybe there's research on stability of that. But then I'm like, well,
Speaker 3: why does it even matter with with tissue culture becoming
Speaker 3: more prevalent, Like, if you need to keep that mail,
Speaker 3: just just store it and tissue culture and then grow
Speaker 3: it out and get fresh pollen when you're ready for it.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, it's rare to see a male that does
Speaker 1: not drop via or that that drops unviable pollen. I've
Speaker 1: never seen that yet, but I'm sure it exists. I
Speaker 1: just haven't run into that yet.
Speaker 3: I think, like, isn't that one of the the claimed
Speaker 3: benefits of like these new like triploid and polyploid plant
Speaker 3: that their pollen is ineffective or something, and therefore you
Speaker 3: won't have seeded out fields herms.
Speaker 4: In practice, that ended up being a huge flop for
Speaker 4: the for the people who went who went in on that.
Speaker 4: Apparently they do herm like crazy and they just don't
Speaker 4: produce viable seeds, so you get it. You still get
Speaker 4: you know, like premi seed bud instead of non seeded
Speaker 4: you know, because it just did not work out the
Speaker 4: way that everyone was kind of I guess hoping it would.
Speaker 1: And that's to me, that's so much worse because like
Speaker 1: the worst case scenario, you have seed left to run.
Speaker 1: But if you're just getting a little white, premature, little
Speaker 1: nothing seeds in there and you're just smoking and all
Speaker 1: your hear.
Speaker 3: Is well, I imagine if you're growing for like extraction,
Speaker 3: maybe it's still better than fully formed seeds because it's
Speaker 3: less energy that that plants spent to grow them. And yeah,
Speaker 3: maybe that means less it's true cannabinoid reduction. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3: I don't know. I don't know much about these polyplate
Speaker 3: triple Some people ask like can I can I test
Speaker 3: and determine that. I think that's again one of those
Speaker 3: things that you need like actual sequencing for Yeah, and frankly,
Speaker 3: I just don't know the benefits of those those seeds
Speaker 3: or plants.
Speaker 1: Back in the day, the broscience was a polyploid will
Speaker 1: make a much more potent plant with THHD, but that
Speaker 1: was before anyone was doing any kind of sequencing or testing.
Speaker 1: It was just the bold claim and guys online that
Speaker 1: were kind of respected for their knowledge and breeding just
Speaker 1: kind of antificating a little bit more and being a
Speaker 1: lot more positive or confident in what they were saying
Speaker 1: versus any science being available to confidently say.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I guess if you look at like
Speaker 3: like I think wheat and corn like the reason those
Speaker 3: got much more yield over the past hundreds of years
Speaker 3: was due to polyploidy if I remember correct. So I
Speaker 3: can see why someone might think like polyploidy and cannabis
Speaker 3: would result in bigger or stronger buds.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that makes sense, but.
Speaker 3: It seems like it would require a lot of research
Speaker 3: and validation more that that could be done in one
Speaker 3: person's garden, I would imagine.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, Let's see. We had some questions here
Speaker 1: from the community. Tweet top said, I'd like to hear
Speaker 1: more about the test, How the tests were developed, did
Speaker 1: they come from a different croper industry, What are the
Speaker 1: tests actually doing?
Speaker 3: Yeah, so the current test we have that we use
Speaker 3: for majority of our samples was developed by Medicinal Genomics.
Speaker 3: They did a bunch of sequencing of you know, male
Speaker 3: and female plants and found like conserved regions of the
Speaker 3: Y chromosome. So conserved regions means like this string of
Speaker 3: DNA was found in the Y chromosome of a bunch
Speaker 3: of different you know, strains of male plants, right, So
Speaker 3: therefore you know it's it's probably going to be pretty
Speaker 3: accurate on the rest of the male plants out in
Speaker 3: the world and to come and it's you know, specific
Speaker 3: to the males. It's exclusive, and that it's not going
Speaker 3: to pick up on female plants. Yeah, so our test
Speaker 3: to text for that Y chromosome, I think maybe I
Speaker 3: think it's actually like two areas of that Y chromosome
Speaker 3: and an area of the DNA we call it like
Speaker 3: the internal control that's just found in every male and
Speaker 3: female plant. So we're seeing two result readouts per sample.
Speaker 3: One we expect to see like a signal in every plant,
Speaker 3: and the other result we expect to see it only
Speaker 3: in the male plants. So that kind of two signal
Speaker 3: system gives us a lot of confidence that the test
Speaker 3: performed as expected, that the DNA was properly taken out
Speaker 3: of the plant before we analyzed the DNA. Prior to that,
Speaker 3: we were running a test that found like a male
Speaker 3: associated DNA sequence, but it wasn't on the Y chromosome.
Speaker 3: We stop doing that just for practical reasons, Like that
Speaker 3: test took a little bit longer, and it was like
Speaker 3: a little more sensitive to like crossover contamination and just
Speaker 3: wasn't as accurate as this current test we have. I
Speaker 3: think that answers yeah, that question. And it's pretty much
Speaker 3: the same for like the FIG test. It's a sequence
Speaker 3: that's associated with male fig plants, and you know, we
Speaker 3: screened for that, and we also screen for an area
Speaker 3: of the fig plant that's will be detected whether it's
Speaker 3: female or male. Pretty much the same for all of
Speaker 3: the different pathogen tests. It's it's multi multi targeted, and
Speaker 3: that we're screening for the pathogen target and an internal
Speaker 3: control target. And that's what generally makes it different from
Speaker 3: the like at home testing protocols. Those at home protocols
Speaker 3: are only testing for the target. They don't have that
Speaker 3: internal control to confirm that you're not getting a false
Speaker 3: negative result.
Speaker 1: Here's another This is actually a really interesting question from Loiger.
Speaker 1: How much more complicated is it to set up a
Speaker 1: testing lab compared to a hydrocarbon extraction distillation lab. Is
Speaker 1: there a skill where it would make sense for an
Speaker 1: avid plant collector to build their own lab. Closed loop
Speaker 1: extractors and short path stills are understandable with the high
Speaker 1: school level of physics. How much more extensive is the
Speaker 1: knowledge required and using mass spectrometers and other methods to
Speaker 1: detect your plant health issues?
Speaker 3: Okay, so we don't so our core equipment is the
Speaker 3: thermal cycler and specifically the the real time QPC are
Speaker 3: uh specific thermal cyclers. I mean it's if you have
Speaker 3: to develop your own protocols and programs, then yeah, that's
Speaker 3: that's tricky and challenging. But yeah, you can buy ready
Speaker 3: to use kits and it's just a matter of mixing
Speaker 3: different liquids basically and just being precise on how much
Speaker 3: you're adding and and being able to scrutinize the results,
Speaker 3: which you know, it's it's not very hard. I think
Speaker 3: if you can set up distillation, you can you can
Speaker 3: do this. Mass spec is generally just for like your
Speaker 3: your potency and safety testing labs. We don't use that equipment.
Speaker 3: I think the why you wouldn't do it is just
Speaker 3: there's not like a whole lot of value out of
Speaker 3: just having a q PCR PCR set up at home,
Speaker 3: you'd have to be testing a lot of plants to.
Speaker 1: The yeah, cost benefit ratio.
Speaker 3: Break even cost versus using a lab like ours. I'd imagine,
Speaker 3: you know, we we tested such a volume that our
Speaker 3: prices is low. But if you're just buying, like, you know,
Speaker 3: enough materials to test like two hundred plants a year, like,
Speaker 3: you're spending a lot of money. Yeah, on top of
Speaker 3: the initial equipment cost.
Speaker 1: And this is something people can do with liquid chromatography paper,
Speaker 1: right like.
Speaker 3: No, no, yeah, Like that's like those at home THHC
Speaker 3: test kits. Yeah, yeah, I've used those before. No, I
Speaker 3: mean I think if you could manage to make those
Speaker 3: kits work for thh you know, if you can figure
Speaker 3: out if you can read the protocol and run those
Speaker 3: kits and get the expected results out of those kits,
Speaker 3: you could probably buy reagents and buy equipment and run
Speaker 3: your own sex tests. But again, I just don't think
Speaker 3: it's for most people it's going to be cost effective.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it doesn't sound financially viable at all to try
Speaker 1: to run that from home.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I've seen people do it. I've had former customers
Speaker 3: do it and even like offer it as a service
Speaker 3: to their buddies, and they generally don't do it for long. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I wouldn't think.
Speaker 3: So, because, like you know, you can you can mess
Speaker 3: something up in an instant and it's like hundreds of
Speaker 3: dollars We're wasted in that one instant. Yeah, just by
Speaker 3: mixing the wrong thing. So as soon as you do that,
Speaker 3: boom anything, any potential cost savings are out the window. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 3: And and just sending it to a lab like mine
Speaker 3: is so simple, you know. I think a lot of
Speaker 3: people have have they misunderstand like how easy the mail
Speaker 3: is and how reliable it is. Yeah, you know, we
Speaker 3: do thousands of packages a year, insanely small loss rate.
Speaker 3: So yeah, it just to me it's the obvious way.
Speaker 3: But I'm also maybe a little biased.
Speaker 1: No, I think it absolutely makes sense. Simplus, if people
Speaker 1: don't have that experience in training in the first place,
Speaker 1: be weird.
Speaker 4: I think the way you guys set the actual kits
Speaker 4: up make it very easy to not fuck up the process,
Speaker 4: like on your end as the grower, because I've used
Speaker 4: the sex test before and having like the tags and
Speaker 4: everything like set up essentially so you do not mess it.
Speaker 3: Up yeah, yeah, it's pretty rare that people mess it up,
Speaker 3: but we definitely do get you know, sample kits submitted
Speaker 3: every now and then just just have nothing inside of
Speaker 3: it or still have the plant tag inside of it,
Speaker 3: and it's like, you know, this was meant to stay
Speaker 3: with your plant. I don't know how you're gonna know
Speaker 3: which result goes to which plant, but you know, people
Speaker 3: people get get medicated before they take their samples, and
Speaker 3: we see some funny mistakes every now and then. But yeah,
Speaker 3: it's pretty pretty simple, pretty full proof.
Speaker 4: Yeah, well those people can't be helped.
Speaker 3: I don't you know.
Speaker 1: They got to charge it to the game and learn
Speaker 1: from it.
Speaker 3: Because well are easy. Honestly, we send those test kids
Speaker 3: back to them and say, hey, try again. You know,
Speaker 3: we're as long as we haven't you know, tested it
Speaker 3: and wasted any money on the actual like process, like
Speaker 3: as many times as it takes for you to properly
Speaker 3: submit a sample, We're willing to work with you.
Speaker 1: Do we have anything else there? Screw In the Q and.
Speaker 4: A someone asked about if potency testing is in the future.
Speaker 4: From what you were saying, no, it's not.
Speaker 3: No, it just required like with potency testing unless we're
Speaker 3: doing it for for HIMP. I mean, we're we're handling
Speaker 3: drug material and regulated material and that just requires like
Speaker 3: a lot more legal setup and licensing that we're not
Speaker 3: interested in doing. Like we're kind of in the sweet
Speaker 3: spot of of you know, in the in the cultivation
Speaker 3: cycle where we can handle that material without without all
Speaker 3: these special requirements.
Speaker 1: Okay, So we have your website up on the screen,
Speaker 1: and I wanted to make people aware this is what
Speaker 1: it looks like, very easy to navigate. We have where
Speaker 1: you can order tests. This is the pathogen pathogen detection area.
Speaker 1: You have your mom panel, intake panel, and full panel,
Speaker 1: and I wanted to show people what was involved. What's
Speaker 1: involved in the full panel versus the other panels.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so the full panel, it's basically just throwing every
Speaker 3: test we have at that sample you send us. So
Speaker 3: full panel is definitely nice for uh, you know, checking
Speaker 3: up on your mom's on some kind of schedule, or
Speaker 3: if you're receiving something that you just have no idea
Speaker 3: what the origin, how clean the origin is. Yeah, the
Speaker 3: full panels great. Most cases, like the intake panel, which
Speaker 3: is hop late and viralid fuse aium, pithium, those are
Speaker 3: like the most common things we see detected, So that's
Speaker 3: generally what we recommend to people. But the full panel's nice.
Speaker 3: I mean, we definitely have customers who always do the
Speaker 3: full panel for just full peace of mind that you know,
Speaker 3: any anything that could be tested for was tested and
Speaker 3: it passed all of that. And so when you receive it,
Speaker 3: you know it's gonna look something like this. It's going
Speaker 3: to be marked for which test was selected. You add
Speaker 3: your leaf samples and roots samples. There's you know, individual
Speaker 3: envelopes inside of this one kit for your specific leaves
Speaker 3: and roots, whereas like the intake panel that test generally
Speaker 3: just roots are the only necessary sample type. So yeah,
Speaker 3: it you know, these different panels will change which samples
Speaker 3: we like to work with and what targets we're detecting.
Speaker 1: Okay, that's good, and we want to make sure that
Speaker 1: everyone knows. If you're listening to the show, there is
Speaker 1: a coupon code, and those watching the show and see it.
Speaker 1: But if you're not watching the show, I'm waiting for
Speaker 1: it to scroll by far enough so it pops up.
Speaker 1: The coupon code is Syndicate five, and that'll save you
Speaker 1: five percent off any purchase at Farmer Freeman dot com.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you can go to our site and see like
Speaker 3: the trusted by page and I'm sure you'll recognize at
Speaker 3: least some of those those brands and grow ups. It's
Speaker 3: been really cool seeing the different names that come through. Like,
Speaker 3: you know, I like to respect my customer's privacy as
Speaker 3: much as I can, but unless they tell me, like yeah, sure,
Speaker 3: shout us out. But like, gosh, there's one one time
Speaker 3: I was like I saw it come in and I'm
Speaker 3: like telling my staff, I'm like, okay, drop, drop everything
Speaker 3: you're doing. We're we're focusing on this, like we you know,
Speaker 3: we we take confidence in that everything we send out
Speaker 3: is correct, but like we were like, oh my god,
Speaker 3: we we absolutely cannot mess this up.
Speaker 1: Yeah for sure.
Speaker 3: Yeah. So it's you get a little starstruck sometimes, like
Speaker 3: you know, as a as a cannabis fan seeing who
Speaker 3: we get to work with, like the like I got
Speaker 3: followed by Arian Strain Hunter a few years ago. Yeah, god,
Speaker 3: this is this is nuts, you know, but yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3: Syndicate five gets you five percent off. Other savings are
Speaker 3: you can subscribe to the different tests and that means
Speaker 3: we'll ship it to you every one three or six months,
Speaker 3: and that gets you another ten or more percent off.
Speaker 3: You can cancel that. Some people just subscribe, get the discount,
Speaker 3: cancel immediately. There's don't do that, guys, don't you know
Speaker 3: there's nothing stopping you from doing that. Of course, we
Speaker 3: want you to stay with us, but you know, just
Speaker 3: throwing it out there that we try to price everything
Speaker 3: so that it makes sense for nearly every person's Yeah, well,
Speaker 3: you gotta let the syndicate members know that they get
Speaker 3: the ten percent.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that's right. Yeah, if you're a part of
Speaker 1: our discord via buy me a coffee, you get ten
Speaker 1: percent off. And you don't have to be a dickhead
Speaker 1: and subscribe like that and unsubscribe. You could just be
Speaker 1: a part of our discord and you get ten percent
Speaker 1: off via for you.
Speaker 4: A new code if you're watching or listening right now,
Speaker 4: a new code has been posted already in the server
Speaker 4: under announcements.
Speaker 1: Yep, that is for July.
Speaker 3: Well, I'm sure you'll get comments and stuff, and we
Speaker 3: could always do you know, maybe follow up, look, call
Speaker 3: and uh absolutely answer any any other questions that pop up,
Speaker 3: even if they were answered in this conversation. We can
Speaker 3: do it again. Yeah, yeah, cool, Yeah, whatever. Yeah, it's
Speaker 3: been fun. Man. I appreciate you you're having me on
Speaker 3: and I feel like it's it's about time that we
Speaker 3: that we talk, you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, me and Screw have both been looking forward to
Speaker 1: this as well, and we really appreciate you guys working
Speaker 1: with us and going through all the bumps with us
Speaker 1: as we you know, fought the YouTube ship as long
Speaker 1: as we could.
Speaker 3: And I consume that the audio id swobscribe on Spotify,
Speaker 3: so I don't I don't watch. I just I listened
Speaker 3: to this in in the car on my commute. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people do do like commutes
Speaker 1: and gardening listens.
Speaker 3: Yeah, thanks so much, Matt and oh.
Speaker 1: Dude, Yeah, it's our pleasure, absolutely our pressure. Yeah yeah,
Speaker 1: I gotta do the same.
Speaker 3: It's a huge relief that what I mail out like
Speaker 3: is basically worthless, Like it's all all the value is
Speaker 3: tied up in actual testing. Yeah, ship like goods with value.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that would be such a nightmare.
Speaker 3: Because it's so rare that things get lost, like, you know,
Speaker 3: up Eventually we say we say two weeks before either
Speaker 3: no scan or no delivery in case it's untracked. Yeah,
Speaker 3: if it's been two weeks without a scan. At that point,
Speaker 3: we're willing to send replacements. Otherwise, you just gotta You
Speaker 3: can either pay for a new pack or you can
Speaker 3: send in samples your own materials. But yeah, and almost
Speaker 3: every single time the replacements arrive like the day after
Speaker 3: the original arrives or something like that.
Speaker 1: Okay, fellas, all right, good luck with the rest of
Speaker 1: your day, and thank you so much for your time.
Speaker 3: Brother seerous guys. Bye, here it is.
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