Speaker 1: I want to welcome everyone back to the Pekanana show.
Speaker 1: I'm here with Thomas and building off of the episode
Speaker 1: that we the Deviation episode from thirty the Thirty Years War,
Speaker 1: in the same in the same subject matter, Thomas is
Speaker 1: gonna jump in, so take it away, Thomas.
Speaker 2: I wanted to talk about the relationship of the Third
Speaker 2: Right to the Islamic World, specifically Palestine, and Palestine was
Speaker 2: absolutely affiliated with the access powers in direct capacities, and
Speaker 2: there is very good offices between the Fear and the
Speaker 2: Grand Mufti ol Hussini, who, despite what propaganda and mainstream
Speaker 2: history suggests he was a he came from a lineage
Speaker 2: that very much had a claim to the manual of
Speaker 2: leadership in Palestine and from a very proud lineage that
Speaker 2: was and remains very respected among Palestinians across the sectarian divide,
Speaker 2: Christian and Mauslim. In order to understand that relationship, though,
Speaker 2: it's important to deal with the relations between the German
Speaker 2: Reich in the Islamic World generally, and early on, the
Speaker 2: Third Reich viewed the Islamic World not in reductionist terms,
Speaker 2: but as very much a political force that had momentum
Speaker 2: in the historical process. But that also was an important
Speaker 2: ally to the cultivated in the war against Bullshevism and
Speaker 2: Jewry as they viewed it. And this wasn't just pragmatic.
Speaker 2: There was a basic affinity there with some qualifications, and
Speaker 2: this is important. And it's impossible to talk about this
Speaker 2: with people in interrational manner because they just go berserk
Speaker 2: if you mentioned Islam. They've been that brainwashed. Some of
Speaker 2: these people are just incredibly stupid, but you know, the
Speaker 2: majority continues to take their cues from legacy media and
Speaker 2: from regime ideologies. The only thing comparable to it is
Speaker 2: people go utterly berserk if I attack the president. I
Speaker 2: don't know what they think the president is doing for
Speaker 2: them lately, or why they think he's in some incredible personage.
Speaker 2: But you know, I'm not here to make friends or
Speaker 2: to try and convert stupid people to make them intelligent
Speaker 2: or reasonable. It's just you know, one of the reasons
Speaker 2: I disdained social media is because it's impossible they have
Speaker 2: serious conversations there because aside from the paid agitators and disruptors,
Speaker 2: there's just this whole peanut gallery of idiots. You think
Speaker 2: it's like a video game or something, and they've decided,
Speaker 2: they've convinced themselves they have some take on everything, and
Speaker 2: even though they spend their days like exclusively in their
Speaker 2: own house or Walmart, they decided they have some take
Speaker 2: on Islam where they have no understanding of it whatsoever.
Speaker 2: So not just I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm
Speaker 2: very blessed there's anybody who spends time with capital t
Speaker 2: traditionalists authors, you know Mercia Eliotti renegan on particularly because
Speaker 2: I mean, obviously he was a Sufi Maslim, Julius evil.
Speaker 2: They all rode extensive way on a dar al Islam
Speaker 2: and Muhammad and his role in the historical process and
Speaker 2: things like that, and obviously I've got a fair amount
Speaker 2: of Mauslim comrades on the ground. Well, she and Sunny,
Speaker 2: you know, we're both good friends and reliable partisans. But
Speaker 2: who I can seek out to discuss compared to theology
Speaker 2: within things. So I'm not suggesting I'm isolating in that regard.
Speaker 2: It just it reaffirms why I am a vanguardist, because
Speaker 2: most people aren't built for this in all kinds of ways,
Speaker 2: and they don't even have their own prejudices. Their prejudices
Speaker 2: are Jewish prejudices, or they're ones that you know they
Speaker 2: gleaned from from legacy media apparatus, or or a fucking
Speaker 2: around on the internet with the people who are probably
Speaker 2: paid agitators, or like random guys in India or something
Speaker 2: just saying things. It's it's like it's staggering to re
Speaker 2: of ignorance. But anyway, I'll stop ranting at the subs.
Speaker 2: The general disposition of the Reich towards Islam, the Islamic world,
Speaker 2: Like I said, they viewed it as a global force
Speaker 2: that was playing an essential role in the unfolding historical process.
Speaker 2: They also predicted that although there wouldn't there wasn't going
Speaker 2: to be the imminent orders of a new caliphate to
Speaker 2: replace the Sea of Daryl Islam that obviously was vacated
Speaker 2: by the collapse of the Ottomans. And to be clear
Speaker 2: that the Kaiser Reich and the Ottoman Empire were very
Speaker 2: close allies. So the Germans had a particularly the German
Speaker 2: academ which had a very strong Orientalist bent, and the
Speaker 2: Foreign service, many of whom remained into the Third Reich.
Speaker 2: They had a fairly highly developed understanding of Islam and
Speaker 2: of the several cultures that constituted. And obviously, as the
Speaker 2: war went on, the non European territories that were directly
Speaker 2: occupied by Wehrmacht were largely Islamic countries, and Sarajevo, which
Speaker 2: is the seed of European Islam, was occupied by by
Speaker 2: the Reich. So that's that's important. All these all these
Speaker 2: variables were intertwined. And as I've written about in my manuscript,
Speaker 2: and I believe I've discussed here with Pete previously, the massacres.
Speaker 2: They it's the annihilation therapy that was perpetuated against minority
Speaker 2: elements in the nascent Turkish state. The world came to
Speaker 2: know about that owing to a maximum shooting a Richter
Speaker 2: who was deployed there, and he alerted both the Red
Speaker 2: Cross and the and and you know, the Berlin Foreign Office,
Speaker 2: and he was told and on certain terms, to stop
Speaker 2: agitating for some sort of localized intervention or relief for
Speaker 2: these people, because relations with Ankara are very important, especially
Speaker 2: in these times of uncertainty. And I make the point
Speaker 2: that well, you know, and on shooting the rictor he
Speaker 2: fell at the at the Munich pouch in November nineteen
Speaker 2: twenty three, and Hitler what on record is saying that
Speaker 2: he was the one. He said the party never recovered
Speaker 2: from the death of shooting a rictor. He was an
Speaker 2: essential personage to the National Socialist Party and the revolution.
Speaker 2: And so I make the point in a manuscript. So
Speaker 2: if if from inception the NSDAP was this hyper racialized,
Speaker 2: you know, murderous conspiratorial cadre that simply hated all non
Speaker 2: Rian races, why was Richter the only man who was
Speaker 2: raising alarm about what was happening in an Asia minor?
Speaker 2: Nobody seems to be able to answer that question for me.
Speaker 2: They simply ignore it, or sam lying, or move on
Speaker 2: without addressing it. But be as it may. The Third Reich,
Speaker 2: although arguably there's the deepest sort of diplomatic rapport and
Speaker 2: cultural rapport enjoyed with Daryl Islam, the other major Access
Speaker 2: nations made similar efforts to curate and mobilize Islamic support.
Speaker 2: Mussolini he famously, I mean, this was very performative and
Speaker 2: very stage managed. But in nineteen thirty seven he arranged
Speaker 2: for this ceremony where he was presented with a quote
Speaker 2: sort of Islam at a public ceremony in Tripoli, symbolically
Speaker 2: holding himself and the Kingdom of Italy out as a
Speaker 2: as a as a protector of the Maslim world against
Speaker 2: against communism, and he went on to declare that the
Speaker 2: quote laws of the prophet would would be honored. Gebels
Speaker 2: actually made a note of this, and his diaries prolific
Speaker 2: as he was as a diary, it was one of
Speaker 2: the reasons there's such a valuable artifact. He had kind
Speaker 2: of a cynical take on this. He said, you know,
Speaker 2: the duche never never passes up an opportunity to glorify
Speaker 2: himself as the protector of other people's you know, which
Speaker 2: was which was true? And I don't I don't think
Speaker 2: Duce had some deep affinity for his lom or spent
Speaker 2: much time learning about its theological precepts. But it was imperative,
Speaker 2: particularly considering the primary battle space that Italy was committed
Speaker 2: to with that juncture, to try and curate the support
Speaker 2: these people, or at least mitigate any hostility that might
Speaker 2: be emergent otherwise. Similarly, the the Shintoist Japan, they established
Speaker 2: the Greater Japan Islamic League and simultaneously the Tokyo Mosque
Speaker 2: was established at nineteen thirty eight, and they very much
Speaker 2: dedicated a lot of effort and resources, both military and
Speaker 2: capital to encouraging in Islamic uprising against the Dutch, you know,
Speaker 2: and radicalizing people in the in the Dutch Indies against them,
Speaker 2: both the British and and the Midlanders. And like I
Speaker 2: said this in the case of the right, this long
Speaker 2: predated the national socialist revolution. The central powers, you know,
Speaker 2: particularly the Kaiser right. The Ottoman Empire was an essential
Speaker 2: ally theirs, and until they got knocked out of the war,
Speaker 2: they played an essential role in allowing Germany to sustain
Speaker 2: a two front conflict. There's so much emphasis on the
Speaker 2: Western Front and the Maelstrom and slaughter that that represented.
Speaker 2: There's not enough inc dedicated to the US Front of
Speaker 2: World War One, where it wasn't the stalemate that it
Speaker 2: came to pass in the West because the open step
Speaker 2: precluded it and facilitated maneuver. Poison gas was used a
Speaker 2: greater effect in in the East as well. And obviously
Speaker 2: you know until the when when when the after the
Speaker 2: Rustian Revolution, the the Reichs fail was victorious. I mean,
Speaker 2: that was one of the big soar points of the
Speaker 2: of the military in the wake of Versailles is they
Speaker 2: were forced to give up these territories that they won
Speaker 2: on the battlefield. But you know, before an entire army
Speaker 2: deployed to the east was freed up, you know, by
Speaker 2: the Red Revolution and the Treaty of Breast the Tusk.
Speaker 2: The Ottomans were playing an essential role in the Kaiser
Speaker 2: rach Jews strategic flank. And Wilhelm, who was not any
Speaker 2: kind of great diplomat or strategic thinker, he went out
Speaker 2: of his way to sustain good offices with the Ottomans.
Speaker 2: You know, whole Vegg was very much the political mind
Speaker 2: behind the kaiser Reich. But the Kaiser himself, particularly in
Speaker 2: dealing with you know, fellow monarchs, and uh make the mistake,
Speaker 2: you know, the even in its waiting days, an Ottoman sultan,
Speaker 2: that great authority, it was essential for it. Dictates and
Speaker 2: declarations and as well as insinuations both subtle and flagrant,
Speaker 2: come from the Kaiser himself. But you know, so Germanotoman authorities,
Speaker 2: they collaborated and trying to cultivate Pan Islamic consciousness in
Speaker 2: North Africa and the Near East and Russia and India.
Speaker 2: I mean, this was this was a long standing effort.
Speaker 2: It's not just a question that emerged in nineteen thirty
Speaker 2: nine and in in World War Two as the himnachs SS.
Speaker 2: Even early on, as they found themselves deployed to Islamic lands,
Speaker 2: German authorities were explicit that Islam was of political importance
Speaker 2: and sold out and were instructed to respect religious customs
Speaker 2: and show respect for Islam when dealing with Moslems, and
Speaker 2: and to treat them as friendlies unless they you know,
Speaker 2: he exhibited disrespect for the Reich. It's it's heraldry or
Speaker 2: or for you know, the the personal honor a soldiers
Speaker 2: and officers on the USC front. The uh, the Reich
Speaker 2: one as far as they were, the re establishment of
Speaker 2: mosques and madrasses, and they set aside pious endowments for
Speaker 2: the re establishment of Islamic religious life. I mean they did.
Speaker 2: They did the same thing with with Orthodox churches. But
Speaker 2: I mean that goes up saying if you know the
Speaker 2: history of the conflict and the political side of things,
Speaker 2: but uh, you know, they this went a long way
Speaker 2: to undermining the Soviet rule because Moslims were targeted with
Speaker 2: as much hostility as as the Orthodox were, you know,
Speaker 2: and Gurbles themselves made the point that the early Soviet
Speaker 2: cadres in KVD and the Czech They they hated the
Speaker 2: Moslems rethno sectarian reasons as much as they did the Christians,
Speaker 2: and viewed them as their repressors and did incredibly brutal
Speaker 2: things and tried to tried it, tried to extricate relateous
Speaker 2: sensibility from Islamic communities. Vermunt authorities. Also, they're very much cultivated,
Speaker 2: you know, the Ulama in Eastern territories and the Balkans especially,
Speaker 2: That's how headway was made. And as Uh the Balkan
Speaker 2: theater became this counterinsurgency quagmire that became very important. And
Speaker 2: Ante Pavolch Poglovnik of the Independent State of Croatia, he
Speaker 2: was raised in a town early in his life that
Speaker 2: had a very large Maslim population. And Uh Pavolos himself,
Speaker 2: he knew a lot about Islam and their rituals. There's
Speaker 2: a photographs of him wearing a fez when he's meeting
Speaker 2: with Bosniaks. It's very interesting and he he famously he
Speaker 2: viewed Bosniaks as quote racial Croatians and Sunni Islam. Uh
Speaker 2: was viewed as a state relied religion alongside Roman Catholicism,
Speaker 2: albeit secondary secondarily to it. But that that that that
Speaker 2: that sort of expedited this these efforts in the Balden Theater,
Speaker 2: which would have been a lot more difficult if the
Speaker 2: used to show was openly hostile to UH Bosnia populations
Speaker 2: and UH the UH the vermackd and UH the buff
Speaker 2: and SS they they granted a lot of religious freedom
Speaker 2: to Moslim recruits and UH Moslim formations. The religious calendar
Speaker 2: was taken into uh account dietary laws with respect to
Speaker 2: you know, the mess hall and things. Both of Vermacht
Speaker 2: and of off On SSS had emms service chaplains, and
Speaker 2: they launched h ideological education programs to explicate how you know,
Speaker 2: a Moslim should live as a national socialist, you know,
Speaker 2: and what the meaning was of national socialism to non
Speaker 2: Germanic yet Allied races. This was very, very detailed, whatever
Speaker 2: if any whether anybody agrees with this or not, you know.
Speaker 2: And these education programs were almost unfailingly delivered by by
Speaker 2: military emams. The only times they weren't is when an
Speaker 2: imam wasn't available, and Bosniak imams in particular played an
Speaker 2: outsized role. Again, Sarah Jevo only about two million Moslims
Speaker 2: lived in Sarajevo, but that's the European seed of Islam,
Speaker 2: and UH. The way Moslims viewed it throughout the Moslim
Speaker 2: diaspora was, you know, being being sort of the seed
Speaker 2: of Islamic culture in Europe and also being very directly
Speaker 2: threatened by by Communism. There was a peculiar interest in
Speaker 2: the fortunes of the Bosniaks of Sarajevo and reciprocally pious Sunnis,
Speaker 2: you know, pious UH, the Bosniak Sunnis. They they had
Speaker 2: a strong interest in the fortunes of their coreligion is
Speaker 2: you know, behind the they were still behind the verbial
Speaker 2: wire in the Soviet Union and in UH in Palestine.
Speaker 2: You know, the UH military formal military policy towards Islamic peoples,
Speaker 2: and UH brought strategic terms. Really that policy paradigm first
Speaker 2: originated on July twenty fifth, nineteen forty, just after the
Speaker 2: fall of France, you know, and as the Battle of
Speaker 2: Britain was getting underway, a man named Max van Oppenheim.
Speaker 2: He was a retired diplomat and an Orientalist scholar. He
Speaker 2: spontaneously sent a memorandum, a seven page memorandum to the
Speaker 2: Foreign Office suggesting that it was both imperative to cultivate
Speaker 2: the populations and the enemies Islamic territories and do everything
Speaker 2: possible to incite a rebellion against the British authorities there,
Speaker 2: and moving forward to give whatever military material, aid and
Speaker 2: diplomatic encouragement as was reasonable and feasible, you know, And
Speaker 2: he said if he said, the time is nigh for
Speaker 2: a comprehensive strategy to mobilize the Islamic world against the
Speaker 2: British Empire. But he said, also if the British have
Speaker 2: time to consolidate forces and suppress a nascent rebellion, and
Speaker 2: well meanwhile holding you know, German forces at bay in theater,
Speaker 2: the opportunity will not repeat. He's also Oppenheim who'd spent
Speaker 2: most of his adult life traveling, and he is traveling
Speaker 2: and living in the Islamic world. He'd reached out directly
Speaker 2: as a private person since his retirement. He was in
Speaker 2: his early eighties. I believe to pan Islamic religious figures
Speaker 2: like Shakib Arslan and more most significantly to the Grand
Speaker 2: Mufti aminel Hussini, and they became very close and largely
Speaker 2: at Oppenneim's be hast. Hitler, who had a somewhat tempestuous
Speaker 2: relationship with the Foreign Office, he took this seriously and
Speaker 2: German officers were deployed to the entire Moslim corridor where
Speaker 2: there was a British imperial presence from Egypt to India.
Speaker 2: And of course subsequently the Grand moved Yea Lucenia was
Speaker 2: able to gain a personal audience of the Hitler, and
Speaker 2: we'll get to that, but this was the this was
Speaker 2: the origin of what became a a strategic imperative in
Speaker 2: political and military terms. I mean, that's important for its
Speaker 2: own sake, but also the Ribbontrop's other cast is some
Speaker 2: sort of fool or an incompetant, or the foreign officers
Speaker 2: cast is in the same sort of terms as the
Speaker 2: app there as this sort of a positive a fifth columnists.
Speaker 2: And Hitler's cast is this provincial nationalist who didn't understand
Speaker 2: the felt politique. I mean, all that is ridiculous. And
Speaker 2: this the relationship of the Reich to the Islamic world
Speaker 2: in particulars stands in a rebuttal to that inference. And
Speaker 2: so this is an important subject matter for that reason.
Speaker 2: And Oppenheim he he'd served in the kaiser Reich for
Speaker 2: decades and there's few people then living who knew as
Speaker 2: much about Islam and Islamic societies as he did, and
Speaker 2: more than any one man, he was responsible for shaping
Speaker 2: the Kaiser's disposition towards Islam generally. He was trained as
Speaker 2: a lawyer. By education, he'd become fluent in several Middle
Speaker 2: Eastern languages, including you know, various Arab dialects, as well
Speaker 2: as Turkish. He traveled for years through Africa and the
Speaker 2: Middle East, and in eighteen ninety six when he was
Speaker 2: officially recruited by the Foreign Office, he subsequently posted for
Speaker 2: twelve years in Cairo, where he directly monitored political developments
Speaker 2: and cultivated and enduring relationships with Arab in Islamic leadership.
Speaker 2: In Sudan during the Mahdi rebellion, he'd been on the
Speaker 2: ground there and what he attested to in subsequent years
Speaker 2: was that's when he first encountered is Lam as a
Speaker 2: political force. He always understood the deeply integral structure of
Speaker 2: Islam and conceptual terms, but this had all been at
Speaker 2: stress act or academic until this point. In Sudan, he
Speaker 2: came to realize that Islam had a strong role to
Speaker 2: play in the Burgening political process, that it had an
Speaker 2: ability to animate pious elements towards direct military action, and
Speaker 2: therein it was a force multiplier, And that there is
Speaker 2: a peculiar interplay of deep theology and political and military
Speaker 2: imperatives in the Islamic world, and the Western power that
Speaker 2: could integrate that into its own political soldiery would carry
Speaker 2: the day in theater, and he he'd been able to
Speaker 2: gain Oppenheim, had he'd been able to gain audiences with
Speaker 2: the Ottoman Sultan, with a number of other luminaries, both
Speaker 2: reactionaries and reformers. What they were hold in common was
Speaker 2: a belief and advocacy of the pan Islamic cause in
Speaker 2: lieu of this sort of narrow ethno nationalism that was
Speaker 2: still characteristic in the colonized world in substantial measure. And
Speaker 2: Oppenheim's dispatches were delivered personally to the Kaiser, who basically
Speaker 2: viewed them as gospel in terms of how to proceed
Speaker 2: in the Near East and North Africa. And the Kaiser Wilhelm,
Speaker 2: for all of his shortcomings, was for myriad and he
Speaker 2: was in many respects. The Reich was unfortunately saddled with him,
Speaker 2: he did delegate to experts. The other reason Halvegg subsequently
Speaker 2: had the sort of power he did, and on matters
Speaker 2: relating to h Veldt politique, the Kaiser tended to defer
Speaker 2: to people he viewed as the experts. And that's very Prussian.
Speaker 2: And that's why, despite Germany not having a global profile
Speaker 2: in terms of directly colonies in the way that the
Speaker 2: United Kingdom or France, or the Spanish or the Portuguese did,
Speaker 2: they tend to do do very well at at cultivating
Speaker 2: allies in the developing world. And this went some of
Speaker 2: this was and we'll get into this in our Thirty
Speaker 2: Years War series. Isn't a side I want to cover
Speaker 2: this one I'm about to discuss as well as the
Speaker 2: sort of proxy war that was going on in Japan
Speaker 2: during the Thirty Years War between the Catholics and specifically
Speaker 2: Dutch Reformed elements. But the the Ottomans had granted asylum
Speaker 2: to Protestants, both Lutheran and Reformed, who were either refugees
Speaker 2: of hostilities in the thirties War or were wanted by
Speaker 2: the Inquisition, and a sort of cultural rapport developed between
Speaker 2: Protestant Germany and Sunni Islam, and I think that that's
Speaker 2: something that's understated and a lot of these otherwise very
Speaker 2: complete accounts of the subject matter, but even limited as
Speaker 2: the Kaiser rex colonial profile was, the Kaiser right did
Speaker 2: in the colonies that did have rule over did rule
Speaker 2: over Islamic populations in Togo and Cameroon, in Germany east
Speaker 2: to Africa now and maybe a you know, and obviously
Speaker 2: it was far easier. I mean, I mean, Africans are
Speaker 2: subterre and Africans are are just challenges to managing those
Speaker 2: populations just because of profound alienage. It's it's obviously, but
Speaker 2: the colonial authorities obviously found it easier to deal with
Speaker 2: Islamic elements than pagan ones who ascribed to some sort
Speaker 2: of folk animism or something, and from the outset curated
Speaker 2: good offices with Islamic elements in these territories, and local
Speaker 2: Islamic structures weren't disturbed so long as Muslim leaders accepted
Speaker 2: the colonial presence. In German Africa, sharia kor it's recognized
Speaker 2: Islamic endowments were we weren't touched or text madrasas were
Speaker 2: left open, religious holidays were acknowledged, and the Germans. Uh. Wisely,
Speaker 2: they ruled through Maslim intermediaries and Islamic dignitaries. You weren't
Speaker 2: generally going to be visited in your township by some
Speaker 2: by by by a white man or a German colonial administrator,
Speaker 2: and it'd be an African Maslim intermediary or a respected
Speaker 2: man in in in the local mosque who you deal with,
Speaker 2: and he in turn to deal with the Germans. And
Speaker 2: on the one hand this left colonial governor somewhat isolated.
Speaker 2: But on the other hand, it also meant that these
Speaker 2: intermediaries they had the might of you know, the Kaiser
Speaker 2: right behind them an event of an uprising, So indirect
Speaker 2: rule was highly effective. And that it's not discussed enough
Speaker 2: that again, in comparative terms, limited as the German colonial
Speaker 2: profile and experience was, it very much was a school
Speaker 2: of a political rule, you know, and a high political intrigue,
Speaker 2: and they were very good at it. And I think
Speaker 2: that's uh. I think I think that's not often enough acknowledged,
Speaker 2: other than in very perfunctory terms. And this also led
Speaker 2: to as these kinds of colonial as more and more
Speaker 2: business was done in the colonies and as a geostrategic
Speaker 2: imperative developed around the German presence therapy. There was more
Speaker 2: and more of these sort of colonial congresses formal and
Speaker 2: informal between military and political and business authorities within the
Speaker 2: Kaiser Reich. This led to the development of a a
Speaker 2: cadre of experts in Islamic studies in German academ and
Speaker 2: there was always a streak of Orientalism in modern German
Speaker 2: academ anyway, but these guys who previously really only were
Speaker 2: focused on classical Islam and you know, the their relations
Speaker 2: with the Greeks and things, they shifted their conceptual focus
Speaker 2: very much, I think the contemporary Moslim world and what
Speaker 2: a proper imperial policy should be towards Islam qua Islam,
Speaker 2: and there really wasn't something comparable in the UK or France.
Speaker 2: There was philology type stuff, and you know, obviously a
Speaker 2: very advanced cultural anthropology, but a kind of political science
Speaker 2: of how European Christiandom should index with Islam and power
Speaker 2: political capacities that was pretty much exclusive to the Reich.
Speaker 2: There was a German Colonial Institute formally established. One of
Speaker 2: their big luminaries was a guy named Karl Heinrich Becker,
Speaker 2: and a couple of his colleagues Martin Hartman and D. D. Vestermann.
Speaker 2: Becker was was centered in Hamburg, Hartman and Vestman in Berlin.
Speaker 2: They placed themselves in their faculty at the full disposal
Speaker 2: of the German Empire, and the entirety of their labors
Speaker 2: and their endowment was put in the service of investigating
Speaker 2: and studying Islam, and the colony is accumulating knowledge on
Speaker 2: its spread, historical, contemporary, its impact on power political affairs.
Speaker 2: There was these massive surveys undertaken by Becker, Hartman Investorman
Speaker 2: in ninety six, ninety eleven, in ninety thirteen respectively, which
Speaker 2: were then submitted to the Kaiser, through the Colonial Institute,
Speaker 2: to the Foreign Office onward to the Kaiser, and this
Speaker 2: became a you know, viewed as power political dogma in
Speaker 2: terms of how to proceed in in policy terms, both
Speaker 2: formally and you know, the Low Board, the German Society
Speaker 2: for the Study of Islam, it published a periodical Defelt
Speaker 2: the Islams the World of Islam, and that became regarded
Speaker 2: as the seminal European academic journal on on contemporary Islamic
Speaker 2: faith and practice and politics. And you know, most people too,
Speaker 2: even in the UK, which opposedly is full of these
Speaker 2: you know, progressives and people who have a saying progressives
Speaker 2: and know what they're talking aboutbviously don't. But it'saracter i
Speaker 2: supposedly by this this sort of progressive sensibility an academ
Speaker 2: and then on the other hand, these sort of Machiavelian
Speaker 2: types of a deep understanding of alien cultures and how
Speaker 2: to establish and maintain power. They're in most of the
Speaker 2: most of these German experts, their counterparts, they they just
Speaker 2: looked at, uh, you know, indigenous religions, whether they actually
Speaker 2: were savage, you know, forms of animism or paganism, and
Speaker 2: is Lam is just so much you know, so much
Speaker 2: nonsense or something you know, primitive. It was, Uh, it
Speaker 2: was these German philologists and cultural studies types and orientalists
Speaker 2: who you know, emphasize with the Kaiser and demonstrated within
Speaker 2: and without of their own cuts or to academ you know. Look,
Speaker 2: this is Islam is a a formative civilizing element. The
Speaker 2: uh higher races within Daryl Islam, if you'll allow the
Speaker 2: descriptor produce extraordinarily high culture. And Islam is brought millions
Speaker 2: by millions of people out of ignorance and savagery and
Speaker 2: even if one doesn't accept that it's a singular power,
Speaker 2: political force that is playing an essential role in the
Speaker 2: political process underway in the then nast in twentieth century.
Speaker 2: And to be clear, you know, this is when Christianity
Speaker 2: was under full assault by the Communists, and it was
Speaker 2: uh when this, however, can try to me have been
Speaker 2: this enforced secularism reigned throughout the Western world. That's one
Speaker 2: of the things that set the stage for the Bolshevik Revolution.
Speaker 2: You know. So Islam is this catalyzing element really stood
Speaker 2: alone among world religions. I mean, don't get me wrong,
Speaker 2: I there was, there was pious Christians who are quite
Speaker 2: literally waging a holy war against the Communists. And I yes,
Speaker 2: I believe in in symbolic psychological terms and anthropological terms
Speaker 2: that all politics is essentially theological. But I'm talking in
Speaker 2: terms of conscious religious practice and the ability of religious
Speaker 2: imperatives to anime political affairs. In the early twentieth century,
Speaker 2: Islam really stood alone in that capacity at global scale.
Speaker 2: That's what I'm talking about. For clarity, and that this
Speaker 2: was not lost obviously on these these people that were
Speaker 2: talking about probably the best known political theorists who devised
Speaker 2: a practice of imperial rules of the Islam was Karl
Speaker 2: Heinrich Becker. He emphasized again and again he said Islam wasn't,
Speaker 2: as the British claim, a threat to colonial government. He said,
Speaker 2: not only is it not a threat, but that it
Speaker 2: should and can be used to bolster imperial rule and
Speaker 2: to guarantee peace stability in public order. He said that
Speaker 2: the main reason why the white Western powers were coming
Speaker 2: into hostile contact with Islamic cultures was because they were
Speaker 2: either treating Moslim populations like they were animatester pagan savages,
Speaker 2: or they were viewing observance of Islamic practice as somehow
Speaker 2: inherently subversive, you know, And that integral aspect of Islam
Speaker 2: not only did it render it an essential, essentially political
Speaker 2: confession in a way that other face or not, but
Speaker 2: it also meant that to attack any aspect of its
Speaker 2: observance was to attack every aspect of the reigning way
Speaker 2: of life in theater. And this wasn't a minority opinion
Speaker 2: among the German colonial authorities, both political, diplomatic and military.
Speaker 2: German colonial officers didn't have a hostile disposition towards Islam,
Speaker 2: and they correctly viewed the anti imperialist elements and the
Speaker 2: pro communist elements in theater that claimed to be Pan Islamic.
Speaker 2: They weren't really because the two. It was an irreconcilable Veltisham.
Speaker 2: There was superficially Islamist language in Moscow's propaganda as well
Speaker 2: as within some of these anti colonial ideological subcultures, but
Speaker 2: there was no depth to it. Johann von Leers, and
Speaker 2: we'll get into him next episode. He's a lesser known
Speaker 2: personage within the Third Reich, and it was an essential
Speaker 2: personator to the to the to the national Insulti's resistance
Speaker 2: of the dead defeat. I hold him in great esteem.
Speaker 2: But he correctly recognized Islam's not reactionary. In fact, it
Speaker 2: tends towards a revolutionary paradigm, but it is socially conservative
Speaker 2: in in terms of its view of authority. And a
Speaker 2: assaultant or a king, or a colonial governor or a
Speaker 2: procurator or or an occupying in general, even if he
Speaker 2: himself is not of the faith and not of your people,
Speaker 2: if he protects Islam from its enemies and allows the
Speaker 2: free observance of Islam, you were obligated as a good
Speaker 2: Moslem to not revolt against him. For example, Wilhelm went
Speaker 2: as far as he in the autumn eighteen ninety eight,
Speaker 2: he the Kaiser went on a tour of the German
Speaker 2: colonies and of the Holy Land and the Middle East generally,
Speaker 2: and he visited Damascus specifically to visit the tomb of Salhadeen,
Speaker 2: and he gave a speech to all these you know,
Speaker 2: assembled masses of people where he declared himself to be
Speaker 2: a friend of his lab and the German Empire, to
Speaker 2: be a friend of Islam and of quote the world's
Speaker 2: three hundred million Mohammedians, you know, to give you an
Speaker 2: idea of the priority that Berlin put on the cultivation
Speaker 2: of this relationship. It wasn't just a minor consideration emergent
Speaker 2: in the Foreign Office or or something that Colonial Office
Speaker 2: officers posted in theater. You know, we're we're we're trying
Speaker 2: to force the Kaiser and the government to take notice
Speaker 2: of you know, and uh, this paid uh, this, this,
Speaker 2: this paid dividends. I mean not you know again, not
Speaker 2: only uh did it maintain good offices with the Ottomans,
Speaker 2: who were in real trouble then, but who were an
Speaker 2: essentral ally you know, within the boundar rationality of the
Speaker 2: power political paradigm that you know, reached critical Zenas in
Speaker 2: ninety fourteen. But there there was an enduring affinity between
Speaker 2: the Reich, the German people, and Dar Al Islam that
Speaker 2: endured through the Cold War. In my opinion, you know,
Speaker 2: it was uh, this is a bit of a tangent,
Speaker 2: but you know, the only the only Marxist Leninist Arab
Speaker 2: state was South Yemen, and it was a cadre of
Speaker 2: East Germans who really were the intermediary between the Warsaw Pact,
Speaker 2: the East Bloc and and and the uh, the indigenous
Speaker 2: Arabs there that uh the book uh John Kuhler is
Speaker 2: this uh cold war State department guy. He wrote a
Speaker 2: really interesting book on the Stazi. I mean, he's very
Speaker 2: much a a pro regime kind of guy, cold warrior type.
Speaker 2: But he and I believe he was probably like a
Speaker 2: lot of State Department people. I think he was probably
Speaker 2: an intelligence guy under diplomatic cover. But he, uh, he
Speaker 2: wrote about the the Stazi, the National Folks Armies presence
Speaker 2: in Yemen. You know, he tried to cast as Pejoritaly
Speaker 2: as possible, you know, suggesting that you know, all these
Speaker 2: these these Germans swearing around like colonial overlords. It's like, well,
Speaker 2: any they're doing something right that the yemen the Yemenis
Speaker 2: didn't didn't open fire on him instead of packing. I mean,
Speaker 2: I and the Yemen's aren't exactly the people who who
Speaker 2: take a knee for others, just because you know, if anything,
Speaker 2: there as uh impossible to govern as the past tunes
Speaker 2: and they it was it was the DDR that really
Speaker 2: sold him on the idea of a Stalinism. I mean,
Speaker 2: there's South South Yemen. There there's a confusing pastiche of
Speaker 2: of of of political intrigues in Yemen. But I mean, obviously,
Speaker 2: and I'm not suggesting that the soul or even the
Speaker 2: primary approximate cause of them aligned with the East Block
Speaker 2: was East German persuasiveness or intrigues. But interestingly they're one
Speaker 2: of the one of the Yemeny militias today in the
Speaker 2: south of the country. They ride under the flag of
Speaker 2: South Yemen, you know, uh and they claim uh at
Speaker 2: Drake lineage to that polity, you know. So it's that
Speaker 2: there's something there, but yeah, that I think that should
Speaker 2: be adequate foundation. Man, there's still there's a couple other
Speaker 2: authors I want to get into relating to the Orientalists
Speaker 2: academic culture and in the Kaiser reag and then later
Speaker 2: the Third Reich and the impact that had on conceptual matters.
Speaker 2: But I want to get into the Grand Moftiel Hussini
Speaker 2: and Palestine and it's status as an access element and things,
Speaker 2: and then I promise after that we'll get back to
Speaker 2: the Thirty Years War. But this is important then, it's
Speaker 2: it's particularly timely in my opinion.
Speaker 1: Okay, do you think you're gonna be able to talk
Speaker 1: about the ground Moftie and Ben von Leers in one episode?
Speaker 1: Or is this possibly going to be three?
Speaker 2: Yeah? They might go three, but I'll see what I
Speaker 2: can do. I'll try and expedite it.
Speaker 1: Well, don't yeah, don't leave anything out just to uh,
Speaker 1: you know, we can do three episodes. That'll be perfectly fun.
Speaker 2: Okay, Yeah, thanks for hosting me.
Speaker 1: Of course, always head on over at Thomas A substack
Speaker 1: real Thomas seven to seven seven dot substack dot com
Speaker 1: and his website is Thomas tom seven to seven seven
Speaker 1: dot com. The t is a seven and you can
Speaker 1: connect to everything from either one of those places. And
Speaker 1: if you want to try and find him on X
Speaker 1: where where you know, his account could be gone one
Speaker 1: day and back the next constantly.
Speaker 2: I mean X is an ex as a total pile
Speaker 2: of ship like it, like it really is. I I
Speaker 2: I'm not trying to play murder, but I only maintain
Speaker 2: an account there because people for some reason can't move
Speaker 2: on from it. And it's it's kind of the one
Speaker 2: stuff place, the index of people and stuff.
Speaker 1: As a kid say, as a kid say, or used
Speaker 1: to say this, this phrase is probably uh played out
Speaker 1: by now. It's really fake and gay.
Speaker 2: Yeah it's garbage. It's garbage, and yeah it's fake and
Speaker 2: gay as well.
Speaker 1: All right, Thomas taking a couple of days.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 1: I want to welcome everyone back to the Peakingiana Show.
Speaker 1: Thomas is back for part two, talking about the relationship
Speaker 1: between Islam and not only the Third Reich, but you
Speaker 1: know you talked about the Kaiser years in the first part,
Speaker 1: so jump right in.
Speaker 2: Thanks. Yeah. And subsequently, I at least want to dedicate
Speaker 2: a brief addendum to discussing the post war resistance in
Speaker 2: exile and how that dovetailed with the cause of Palestinian
Speaker 2: liberation and Pan Islamic consciousness generally. I think we got
Speaker 2: into some of that. When we were talking about the
Speaker 2: post war diaster of National Socialists in exile, we were
Speaker 2: talking about how der Veg with Johann von Weir's as
Speaker 2: well as Otto Rimer and Hans Rudel, was a major
Speaker 2: contributor to both in terms of his work product and
Speaker 2: capital investment. And when Argentina was no longer a friendly
Speaker 2: environment for that sort of partisan activity owing to Perone
Speaker 2: being forced out of office, Von Leers made his way
Speaker 2: to the Court of Nasser, and Egypt and Syria in
Speaker 2: particular were very much the loci of that kind of
Speaker 2: partisan activity, and that's significant because that plays into the
Speaker 2: not just the military culture of the region on the
Speaker 2: Arab side, many of whom were trained by for or
Speaker 2: National Socialists and Behrmax veterans, but also it impacted the
Speaker 2: culture of resistance in profound ways, and that's something that's overlooked.
Speaker 2: And we talked a bit about the odd dialectics of
Speaker 2: the DDR and the Rote Army fraction and Horse de Mahler. Obviously,
Speaker 2: the element he was representing when he was on the
Speaker 2: ground in the levant was there of the DDR and
Speaker 2: the Rote Army fraction, but he did a lot to
Speaker 2: facilitate deep contact and operational interdependence with the Popular Front
Speaker 2: for the Liberation at Palestine and the PLO and things,
Speaker 2: and this all ties together, not just conceptually, but in
Speaker 2: terms of a common nucleus of operative fact. If that
Speaker 2: makes sense. I let me see. I try. I always
Speaker 2: try to indicate in my outlines where I leave off.
Speaker 2: So if I'm repeating myself, please let me know. I
Speaker 2: think speaking of I raised mind lyrics. If memory serves,
Speaker 2: we left off talking about vvon Lears and some of
Speaker 2: his work early on and after the National Socialist Revolution.
Speaker 2: As early as ninety thirty four to thirty five, he
Speaker 2: was attempting to create good offices with you know, European
Speaker 2: Moslims in the Balkans as well as with the elements
Speaker 2: in Palestine and behind the the verbial wire in the
Speaker 2: Soviet Union, and von Lears very much had the ear
Speaker 2: of the Gebels as time went on. Gebels actually, through
Speaker 2: the Propaganda Ministry, he instructed the press to paint a
Speaker 2: positive image of Islam, or at least not a negative one.
Speaker 2: This long preceded the war, and he urged journalists under
Speaker 2: the number of the Propaganda Ministry to give credit to
Speaker 2: the Islamic world as a cultural factor that plays a
Speaker 2: historically significant role in the historical process, and that alliance
Speaker 2: between the national socialist cause and Pan Islamism and the
Speaker 2: liberation of the Holy Land is you know, completely commensurate
Speaker 2: with and a component of a national socialist of health polity,
Speaker 2: you know. And this is important for a few reasons.
Speaker 2: It says light not just on the deep ideological culture
Speaker 2: and philosophical disposition of national socialism its standard bears, but
Speaker 2: also it's yet another rebuttal of the claim that the
Speaker 2: Third Reich was this provincial state that didn't understand the
Speaker 2: cultural and strategic situation outside of immediate battle theaters. And
Speaker 2: that's preposterous for a lot of reasons, many of which
Speaker 2: are obvious. Germany was a very cosmopolitan country, not in
Speaker 2: the modern pejorative sense, I mean in the the nineteenth
Speaker 2: and early twentieth century European sense. Van Leers, of course,
Speaker 2: to he was a linguist. He was fluent in something
Speaker 2: like thirteen different dialects. He was a cultural anthropologist, I
Speaker 2: mean what we consider a cultural anthropologist. He was a philologist.
Speaker 2: He was an expert on Islam and Oriental societies, and
Speaker 2: he was very much a right Hegelian and he wrote
Speaker 2: an essay, probably his most famous essay, and it's fairly
Speaker 2: accessible online. I don't know if you can find a
Speaker 2: translation that's not corrupted by Ai slap, but it was
Speaker 2: titled Judaism and Islam Is Opposites, and in Hegelian terms,
Speaker 2: Von Leers viewed Islam as the dialectical antithesis and Judaism
Speaker 2: and a splendid repudiation of it. And he said that
Speaker 2: that's one of the reasons why the Caliphate wasn't subverted
Speaker 2: by a hostile Jewish element within, because these were calcit
Speaker 2: truant people were locked behind ghetto walls, and every aspect
Speaker 2: of the Islamic cultural, social and legal code precluded them
Speaker 2: mobilizing in a possi opacity to wage war from within
Speaker 2: by subject huge or any other way. And whether anybody
Speaker 2: accepts that perspective or not, or think that it is
Speaker 2: merit within the Hegelian paradigm or without, it's a fascinating theory.
Speaker 2: And I highly recommend any of von Lear's essays that
Speaker 2: you can run down. I mean, admittedly have got a
Speaker 2: discrete interest in the subject matter and it's relevant to
Speaker 2: my own research, But I aside from that, I believe
Speaker 2: it's essentially having a complete understanding and conceptual terms of
Speaker 2: the Third Reich and the national socialist ideological culture. And
Speaker 2: von Leers wasn't alone in his overall perspectives. Ferdinand Klaus
Speaker 2: he was a well regarded racial theorist, and he was
Speaker 2: an associate of Hans Gunther Hans of Kate Gunther, who
Speaker 2: was another well known racialist. Both these guys in a
Speaker 2: profile comparable to Houston, Stewart Chamberlain or Authrop Startard. For comparison,
Speaker 2: Klaus's book Ross until Ross und Seal, Race and Soul
Speaker 2: was for all practical purpose is a best seller if
Speaker 2: memory serves, and for different reasons the Dad that he cited,
Speaker 2: because again he Klaus and going through both had very
Speaker 2: much of a materialist view of race. But they were
Speaker 2: in substantial agreement with Julius Evil and Renee gain On
Speaker 2: and suggesting a basic effec the between the master cast
Speaker 2: stratum of the Nordic race and that of you know,
Speaker 2: the Caliphate. In other words, Islam was emergent and curated
Speaker 2: by the natural racial overcast within Daryl Islam. And that's
Speaker 2: one of the reasons it's so splendidly tailored to this
Speaker 2: integral concept of sovereignty where every man is in his
Speaker 2: place and the cast system remains undisturbed because it it
Speaker 2: emerges from the natural hierarchy within, you know, the oriental
Speaker 2: paradigm from where it was emergent. Klaus wrote reports for
Speaker 2: the SS Head Office on political affairs and strategic matters
Speaker 2: relating the anthropological considerations, and he wrote, he wrote a
Speaker 2: paper that was submitted titled Preparation of an Operation for
Speaker 2: winning over the Islamic Peoples, you know, and within it
Speaker 2: he reflected on and the good offices between the kaiser
Speaker 2: Reich and the Ottoman Empire. He talked about the warrior
Speaker 2: heritage of many of the STEP people who were you know,
Speaker 2: very very much culturally Muslim, and he said it's important
Speaker 2: to emphasize similarities and feltenscham between national socialists doctor and
Speaker 2: ethics and the Quran, you know, and that's very interesting.
Speaker 2: And to be clear, Klaus wasn't suggesting that national socialism
Speaker 2: was intended as some sort of aristots religion. I know
Speaker 2: that that's something a lot of anti fascists like to claim,
Speaker 2: and Bandy, he was acknowledging that the Islamic faith structure
Speaker 2: is very, very different than religion in the occident. It's
Speaker 2: the integral aspects of it that are significance, because Islam
Speaker 2: is a political doctrine and an ethical disposition as well
Speaker 2: as the theological system, and that's what's key. And if
Speaker 2: you're a Hegelian, which essentially every everybody associated with the
Speaker 2: Third Reich was to some degree or another, you view
Speaker 2: the development of religiosity as being very much bound up
Speaker 2: with the dialectical process within the relevant culture and the
Speaker 2: variables that the historical variables that created Islam were very
Speaker 2: congress with those that gave rise to national socialism, particularly
Speaker 2: the perennial existential ross and Kreeg against the Jew. So
Speaker 2: it's not really a stretch, you know. And again you've
Speaker 2: you've got to understand the conceptual parameters of the time
Speaker 2: and place that these ideas are being postulated. There was
Speaker 2: a unique receptivity actual potential, you know, and a lot
Speaker 2: of people who otherwise know the subject matter are overly
Speaker 2: dismissive of of that. Interestingly, Klaus after the war he
Speaker 2: abandoned biological racialism. He remained an orientalist academic, and he
Speaker 2: ultimately converted to his lamb. That was the case with
Speaker 2: Carl Wolff, the SS adjutants to the permanent SS adjutant
Speaker 2: to the Fear. Later he he commanded troops the field
Speaker 2: and he was highly decorated. He wasn't just a parade
Speaker 2: ground soldier. But he's a fascinating guy. In David Irving's
Speaker 2: True Himmler, which is a great book, I understand some
Speaker 2: people's lament that you can tell that it was intended
Speaker 2: to be two volumes, and Irv you know the infirmity
Speaker 2: of old age that strikes us all down, struck Irving
Speaker 2: before you complete it. But what there is of it
Speaker 2: is just fantastic. But anyway, Carl Wolf's testimony is cited extensively. Anyway,
Speaker 2: Carlo Wolf's daughter, Fatima Grimm, she married that check Bosniak
Speaker 2: Moslem guy, and she converted to Islam, and she became
Speaker 2: an islam at the Theologian, and then she wrote extensively
Speaker 2: on jihad is a concept. And I realized Klaus and
Speaker 2: Fatima Griham and people like I'm at Hubert, who's it
Speaker 2: was a fascinating personage. I believe Hubert would have been
Speaker 2: indicted after nine to eleven had he not died, but
Speaker 2: that's a subject or a discussion for another day. I
Speaker 2: realized these people are outliers. I'm not suggesting that it's
Speaker 2: normative or some sort of natural progression within German cultural
Speaker 2: dialectics to convert to Islam. I've got too much respect
Speaker 2: for Islam, but I could never imagine converting to Islam.
Speaker 2: But the exception of somebody like Renet Denon who truly
Speaker 2: went native, I mean that, you know, living among Moslims
Speaker 2: and living in the Orient for essentially his whole life,
Speaker 2: that's a different phenomenon. However, with those qualifiers, I there
Speaker 2: is some sort of internal logic, especially considered the catastrophe
Speaker 2: of the day of Defeat and the subsequent occupation. There
Speaker 2: is some sort of internal logic to the peculiar spiritual
Speaker 2: journey of von Leers, of Fatima, Graham of Klaus. I believe,
Speaker 2: but I'm sure the buddle of that is that that's
Speaker 2: speculation the U and there was others too. There was
Speaker 2: other academic writers Schmidtz, Lindemann, Reichhardt who posited not just
Speaker 2: an alliance at geo strategic convenience, but an ideological affinity
Speaker 2: for between Islam and the national social state on Hegelian grounds.
Speaker 2: Linderman went as far as to say that and some
Speaker 2: of the propaganda that he drafted intended for Islamic societies.
Speaker 2: He said, the fuer prinsip is the occidental variant of,
Speaker 2: you know, the same the principle that animates the caliphate,
Speaker 2: you know. And Raichar knew the Quran very well, so
Speaker 2: he was able to cite passages that conveyed the notion
Speaker 2: that Muhammad was the fear of the believers and subsequently
Speaker 2: the caliph represented that role, you know. And but he
Speaker 2: made it clear that the fear is comparable to the Mahdi.
Speaker 2: You know. He's not suggesting the fear as a prophet.
Speaker 2: You know. It was very intelligently tailored before its purpose,
Speaker 2: you know. And of course Moslims were under tremendous pressure
Speaker 2: by the by the communists, you know, they were they
Speaker 2: were targeted as some early as as Orthodox Christians were,
Speaker 2: you know, in that also provided in avenue of ingress
Speaker 2: for this kind of discoursive affinity. And after as early
Speaker 2: as nineteen thirty six, the major transmitter of German propaganda
Speaker 2: to the Mediterranean and North Africa and the Middle East
Speaker 2: was in Zessen. Go to the small town south of Berlin,
Speaker 2: and it housed at the time one of the most
Speaker 2: powerful shortwave transmitters in the world. It had been built
Speaker 2: for the transmit for the ninety thirty six Olympics and
Speaker 2: after nineteenth. As of nineteen thirty nine the broadcast station
Speaker 2: ISS Zessen it brought it had an Arabic broadcast every day,
Speaker 2: you know, intended for Turk's, Iranians Maslims who were then
Speaker 2: within uh the British Raj. There was a journalist, Gustav Buffinger,
Speaker 2: who headed up what was called the orient office of
Speaker 2: the radio station. They had They had seventy or eighty
Speaker 2: permanent staff members a type as translators, announcers, and as
Speaker 2: the war went on, it broadcasts in standard Arabic, but
Speaker 2: in berber and in some of these could Cassius languages too.
Speaker 2: There was an Egyptian Emigray named a Eunice Bari who
Speaker 2: was a big national socialist and he was a permanent
Speaker 2: fixture at the Zessen radio station. He's he's a shadowy guy.
Speaker 2: He disappeared at some point and it's pretty it's pretty
Speaker 2: clear if he wasn't murdered. He disappeared into the into
Speaker 2: the Middle East, and and and probably took it a
Speaker 2: new identity and ended up similarly in the court of
Speaker 2: Nasser or or in Syria. But you know this in
Speaker 2: the Zessen uh the Oriental broadcast from Zessen they continued
Speaker 2: until just a month before the day of defeat, you know,
Speaker 2: in April ninety forty five. So it was it was
Speaker 2: a major thing. We've got to get into the life
Speaker 2: and times in Muhammad Amino Husseini for this to be
Speaker 2: anything approaching complete discussions. So forgive me for changing gears
Speaker 2: to you know, like a biographical discussion. You know, of
Speaker 2: course Hussein he was the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, and
Speaker 2: he's a man who's very much light about and which
Speaker 2: comes with no surprise. Not only was he a Palestinian
Speaker 2: and a significant man in Sunni Islam, but you know,
Speaker 2: he also was allied to the Axis cause. So that's
Speaker 2: sort of a sort of a perfect storm carearacteristics that
Speaker 2: you know, make on a target for slanders of the
Speaker 2: most hostile sort. He was pretty pretty much indisputably the
Speaker 2: most powerful leader of the Palestinian national movement during British
Speaker 2: rule over you know what, before it had been an
Speaker 2: Ottoman fief them for those that don't know it, from
Speaker 2: night approximately nineteen seventeen until ninety forty eight, that was
Speaker 2: the period of British rule over Palestine, and the mouftie
Speaker 2: was he reminds me very much a Sayid Kuta in
Speaker 2: his disposition. You know, people suggest he talked about both
Speaker 2: sides of his mouth and the issue of violent partisan activity.
Speaker 2: You've got to understand the role of the mufti, like
Speaker 2: a mofie is a learned man in Islamic jurisprudence, and
Speaker 2: soon he's put a premium on interpretation and application of
Speaker 2: the law. So a moftie he's not a governor as
Speaker 2: we think of it, and he's not a priest either.
Speaker 2: He's he's one part sort of a learned wise man
Speaker 2: within the tribe and one part intermediary between the congregation
Speaker 2: of the faithful and the outsider or secular authority. You know,
Speaker 2: and a lot of both Zionists and a lot of
Speaker 2: court historians, either out of ignorance or because they're how
Speaker 2: telling the the presudice of the former, they claim, Oh,
Speaker 2: the the British invented the office of the Grand Mufti
Speaker 2: to have some sort of figurehead on the ground, you know,
Speaker 2: to to mitigate the difficulties of directly ruling over a
Speaker 2: Maslim population. That's not true, that's ridiculous. They British recognized
Speaker 2: him as the Grand Moutie of Jerusalem and seeded authority
Speaker 2: over Islamic holy sites to him. But you're you're talking
Speaker 2: about a role and a title and a function of
Speaker 2: mufti that that spans a thousand years, okay. But to
Speaker 2: bring it back to some of the similarities in him
Speaker 2: and Kutev and another Islamic juris types. You know, it's
Speaker 2: there's a complex interplay between how a good Moslem relates
Speaker 2: to secular authority and how he manages a situation and
Speaker 2: is such as that that you know, the Palestinians were
Speaker 2: in vis a vis the occupation. They knew that some
Speaker 2: sort of race war was coming and that the Desionists
Speaker 2: wanted to ethnically cleanse them. They knew that British would
Speaker 2: be leaving at some point, and they knew that if
Speaker 2: a national state was going to be realized, they would
Speaker 2: have to make that divorce from British rule amicable, you know.
Speaker 2: And finally, a moved he's not a general and he's
Speaker 2: not a guerrilla fighter or a soldier. I mean his
Speaker 2: if he if he's called it, laid on his life
Speaker 2: for Jahad. That's what he must do, and he will
Speaker 2: do if he's worthy of the of the title. But
Speaker 2: you know, he's it's not his role to devise military
Speaker 2: solutions under conditions of occupation or it's his job to
Speaker 2: keep the people safe, you know, and to interpret the
Speaker 2: law is laid down by the governing structure in a
Speaker 2: way that allows from Islamic life to be realized, you know.
Speaker 2: And beyond that too that I'm not a Quran scholar,
Speaker 2: but so you know, I just want to get that
Speaker 2: out there. But when our revolt is permissible under the Quran,
Speaker 2: there's very discreete conditions for that, you know, even in
Speaker 2: apostate occupier or or Kelly. If he protects Islam and
Speaker 2: allows Moslims to freely worship, it's not it's it's not
Speaker 2: just or righteous to overthrow him or to disobey him,
Speaker 2: you know. And so there's that obviously, you know, he's
Speaker 2: a he's a hate target of mainstream historians in the
Speaker 2: Anglo sphere, but even a lot of Maslims. Some people
Speaker 2: try and paint him as some sort of extremist quasi
Speaker 2: national socialist. On the other hand, you you know, you
Speaker 2: a lot of passionate people behind the Palestinian cause. You know,
Speaker 2: they view him as some as some sort of machiavellian intriguer,
Speaker 2: you know, who didn't do enough to to protect Palestine.
Speaker 2: That's misguided in my opinion. You know, he was as
Speaker 2: part as in as he as was appropriate to the circumstances.
Speaker 2: And the fact that he the fact that he got
Speaker 2: a personal audience that off Hitler is pretty remarkable and
Speaker 2: the way that came about is fascinating too, And I'll
Speaker 2: get into that. But you know, the on the one hand, uh,
Speaker 2: Hitler was cunning in who he would curate good offices with.
Speaker 2: But it's it wasn't some foregone conclusion Hitler would meet
Speaker 2: whoever the Grand Moftia Palestine was. Why would he? I mean,
Speaker 2: basically the force of personality and the post persuasiveness of
Speaker 2: his polemic and his own sort of cunning and intriguing
Speaker 2: because he was something of an intriguer that's not a slander,
Speaker 2: is what brought him into a face to face meeting
Speaker 2: with the fear. And that's pretty extraordinary, you know, whatever's
Speaker 2: flaws that have to be acknowledged, you know, and it's
Speaker 2: also to the circumstances on the ground in Palestine. I
Speaker 2: mean to say nothing in the warriors, but from the conclusion,
Speaker 2: from the fall of the Ottoman Empire until you know,
Speaker 2: the the declaration of design is state and the ethnic
Speaker 2: cleansing of Palestine, there's an incredibly unstable and not just
Speaker 2: fluid but atinkly chaotic situation on the ground and the
Speaker 2: levant you know, the the move. These views changed in
Speaker 2: accordance with the security situation and the historical situation. You know,
Speaker 2: there was basically at least two distinct phases, you know,
Speaker 2: from nineteen seventeen when the British arrived, until about nineteen
Speaker 2: thirty six, where he was, like say Kute, a kind
Speaker 2: of cautious, pragmatic traditional leader in the mofty role, you know,
Speaker 2: cooperating with British officials will uncompromisingly opposing Zionism. And then
Speaker 2: there was the exile phase. The moved. He was exiled
Speaker 2: after the Arab revolt, which was catastrophic, not his exile,
Speaker 2: I mean the outcome of the Arab revolt, but rightly
Speaker 2: or wrongly, he was swept up in the reaction of
Speaker 2: the crown to the revolutionary situation on the ground, and
Speaker 2: you know, he was identified as a partisan actor, if
Speaker 2: not an architect of the rebellion. But after he was
Speaker 2: understandably bitter being exiled from his home, you know. And
Speaker 2: again the Hussini family has a powerful and distinct heritage
Speaker 2: to this day. They remained important people in theater. But
Speaker 2: he became he became increasingly radical, and he gravitated ultimately
Speaker 2: to the axis, and he did become a partisan. You know,
Speaker 2: he ultimately he became essentially got loab Burger's right hand
Speaker 2: man and recruiting and mobilizing Masm populations to the vafinesss
Speaker 2: now again too, you know, Husseining he had been he'd
Speaker 2: come up through the Ottoman system. You know, those Sainy family,
Speaker 2: They were the most prominent political Palestinian family who were
Speaker 2: the direct intermediary for generations between the Palestinians and the
Speaker 2: Ottoman overlords. You know. So I mean exiling him was
Speaker 2: it was no small thing. And he wasn't He wasn't
Speaker 2: some upstart careerist or some random emam you know, who
Speaker 2: insinuated himself into a clerical and partisan role, going to
Speaker 2: a nascent and then fully realized crisis situation. You know.
Speaker 2: So that's all these things are, all these things are
Speaker 2: important to consider. What uh oh, I want to give
Speaker 2: me one second just to find my citation here. I'm sorry,
Speaker 2: I wanted to I wanted to get into how how
Speaker 2: the Grand moved. He got an audience with Hitler. Another
Speaker 2: personage who was essential to the development of the Third
Speaker 2: Reich's relationship with the Grand Muftie but Islamic populations generally,
Speaker 2: was a German officer named Veilhelm Hintersatz, also known as
Speaker 2: Harun al Rashid bay He was an SS standard and feure.
Speaker 2: He was born in Brandenburg and during World War Two
Speaker 2: he commanded the Eastern Moslem Division OS turkisher Waffenveband Division,
Speaker 2: which was this sort of cosmopolitan pastiche of Kazakhs, Turkmen
Speaker 2: as aeris you name it, but el Rashid. During the
Speaker 2: First World War he served on the General staff of
Speaker 2: the Ottoman Empire with Enver Pasha, who was one of
Speaker 2: the young Turks. For those in know the history, and
Speaker 2: during his time there, two things happened. He developed a
Speaker 2: strong admiration for Otto Lehman von Sanders who he met.
Speaker 2: Sanders was this Prussian aristocrat who was a non observant
Speaker 2: Jew who became this hero of the Ottoman Empire after
Speaker 2: spending his life there and and and and training their
Speaker 2: people and waging war when the Ottoman Empire went to
Speaker 2: war in command the Turkish troops. L Rashid wrote a
Speaker 2: biography of Sanders later that got published in Berlin in
Speaker 2: the thirties that got a lot of fan fear. Anyway,
Speaker 2: during the war, during the Great War, he converted to
Speaker 2: his lamb and then he as when he became Haruin
Speaker 2: o rashid Bait. After his conversion, he Uh he met
Speaker 2: up with As the Great War was ending, there was
Speaker 2: a whole glut of POW's from the Russian Empire at
Speaker 2: Wunsdorff camp and he met he met a bunch of
Speaker 2: Maslim POWs who had been drafted into the Tsarist army,
Speaker 2: and they further schooled him in Islam, and he developed
Speaker 2: an interest also in the Russian way of war because
Speaker 2: looking forward it was clear that you know, the Soviet
Speaker 2: Union was going to be the the prime geostrategic actor,
Speaker 2: not just in Europe and not just contra Germany, but
Speaker 2: you know, across his entire planet, because he was a
Speaker 2: an Aryan Maslim and an experienced combat officer, and he
Speaker 2: was multi lingual, and he had the implicit trust of
Speaker 2: other Moslems. He was recruited by Italian intelligence when they
Speaker 2: went to war in Ethiopia, you know, so he served
Speaker 2: il Duce and further augmented his credentials and guys who
Speaker 2: served under him, like Italians and Germans, you know, who
Speaker 2: said it was uncanny that they said he quote prayed
Speaker 2: without timidity in a mosque and quote he had the
Speaker 2: implicit trust of the native Mohammedians who saw him as
Speaker 2: a fellow believer. He also viewed the United Kingdom as
Speaker 2: potentially Germany's Achilles. Heel and he said, and this was
Speaker 2: even long before the ascendency of the War Party, but
Speaker 2: he said that the British Empire is gonna have to
Speaker 2: be neutralized because they're going to make war on the Reich.
Speaker 2: And he said the key instrumentality of the Reich prevailing
Speaker 2: in that conflict is an alliance with with with with
Speaker 2: Moslims on you know, currently under hostile occupation by by
Speaker 2: the United Kingdom. He uh, during opera when our when
Speaker 2: operations Barbara Rosa kicked off or she he was a
Speaker 2: liaison officer with the Reich Main Security Office and the
Speaker 2: UH Eastern populations, you know, the UH, the Moslim nations
Speaker 2: within Maslim nationalities within the Soviet Union, and in that
Speaker 2: role with the Right Security Main Office of the s S,
Speaker 2: he made contact with the Grand Moufty hodj I mean
Speaker 2: hodj I mean al Hussini and this became a a
Speaker 2: close friendship between the two men, and it developed into
Speaker 2: a deep alliance. And El Rashid and the Grand Mufti
Speaker 2: they began drawing up a plan. They believed that there
Speaker 2: there was two things happening here. This is one of
Speaker 2: the Quagmire and the Balkans was emerging in earnest you know,
Speaker 2: which which was remained UH unmanageable for a substantial portion
Speaker 2: of the war. So she and the Grand Mufti they
Speaker 2: believe that the ideal place to deploy a Moslim division
Speaker 2: would be in the Balkans, you know. And thus hand
Speaker 2: Jar came about thirteenth SS. But additionally, Bosnia was the
Speaker 2: Moslem heartland within Europe. And again, like we talked about
Speaker 2: in the first episode, there's a prestige that attended that,
Speaker 2: and plus the ecumenical clout of the Grand Mofie of Jerusalem,
Speaker 2: who's a very respected man, going to Sarajevo and addressed
Speaker 2: not just Bosniaks but all Moslims and particularly those behind
Speaker 2: the wire fighting communism. This uh, this, this, this was
Speaker 2: very politically savy a relative of the King of Egypt,
Speaker 2: King Farouk, a Prince Mansour dow El Rashid met him
Speaker 2: through the Mufti, and Mansour then began aiding in these
Speaker 2: recruitment efforts and that that bolstered these propaganda efforts, and
Speaker 2: uh the resulting formation. Ultimately Hanjar was the first, and
Speaker 2: it was also Skanderberg, which was Albanian, Moslem and Kamma.
Speaker 2: But the true Pan Islamic division sized element was uh
Speaker 2: the Aus Turk Waffens Turkish Vafen SS Eastern Turkic SS cores.
Speaker 2: And again it was a it was turk Man, it
Speaker 2: was Kazakhs, it was a series. It was you know,
Speaker 2: all the nationalities of the Soviet Union who were of
Speaker 2: the Mauslim faith were represented. I'm gonna till we got
Speaker 2: okay it. Uh. Now, what's really interesting here is that, Yeah,
Speaker 2: the other side, Ty personage ins with got Lot Burger.
Speaker 2: He was a SS general as UH well as a
Speaker 2: higher SS and police leader, and he was responsible for
Speaker 2: the recruitment of non German nationalities into the and he
Speaker 2: was impressed with what he saw from l. Rashid in
Speaker 2: the Mufti and berger Uh decided that there had to
Speaker 2: be an effort to insinuate chaplains with a an national
Speaker 2: socialist ideological education into Islamic formations. So the position of
Speaker 2: military imam was first introduced in ninety forty two. And
Speaker 2: this again is that that Behastont got Lobed Burger the
Speaker 2: command headquarters of the SS Eastern Turkish Division. They set
Speaker 2: up what amount to do an imam training school and
Speaker 2: it oversaw religious practices and the four Mauslim legions as
Speaker 2: they were designated find uh a mola at division level
Speaker 2: and emms and clerics down to platoon level. The overall
Speaker 2: UH legion mola was a for the Isazabaijani legion. For example,
Speaker 2: it was Iman Pasha IV, the Turkestan legion. It was
Speaker 2: a molla you know you to have and so on
Speaker 2: down the line and legion and division molas. They were
Speaker 2: the equivalent of company commander, and these were fighting men.
Speaker 2: One of the most famous of the imams, he was
Speaker 2: a bosmik named Haleem Malich. He held the Iron Cross
Speaker 2: and slew of other awards. You know, So these these
Speaker 2: guys weren't just actors or stand in propaganda elements. And
Speaker 2: it also this was a level of religious formalized religious
Speaker 2: hierarchy and institutionalization, which basically it was there's there's just
Speaker 2: there's something brilliant about it. That's not how Maslim armies
Speaker 2: were organized. It was really assimilating Islamic cultural coding into
Speaker 2: a Wehrmacht model, and a lot of the recruits really
Speaker 2: took to that. There were some malim legions that were terrible,
Speaker 2: and there were some that were absolutely savage, but this
Speaker 2: almost ecclesiastical structure that one would have found in the
Speaker 2: company in the Thirty Years War, for example, you know,
Speaker 2: transposed to an Islamic cultural paradigm, like when it worked
Speaker 2: when the mentioned material constituting the company, platoon or division
Speaker 2: in question, when it was game fighters, and when it
Speaker 2: was mentioned material suitable for soldiery, it was a it
Speaker 2: was it was a fantastic formula. And it also it
Speaker 2: that's did wonders for discipline and morale. It was just
Speaker 2: a question of spiritual council. There was a way of
Speaker 2: conveying to these recruits that you know, this is a
Speaker 2: this is a jihad against Bolshevism and Jewry and being
Speaker 2: a good national socialist and being a good Maslam or synonymous.
Speaker 2: And where those tendencies converge, it's in the person of
Speaker 2: the Islamic national socialist political soldier, exemplified by the Imam
Speaker 2: you know, who was both a cleric and a warrior,
Speaker 2: you know, and who you know and and in and
Speaker 2: not just a commander in in the path of Jahad
Speaker 2: that we are on, but you know, also a spiritual guide.
Speaker 2: The uh Ralph von Hagendorff, who was a career uh
Speaker 2: vermacht Off and an expert in military jurisprudence. In May
Speaker 2: nineteen forty three he issued a formal recommendation that in
Speaker 2: Moslem formations, before of course martial as sigence punishment to
Speaker 2: a defendant, there's to be a consultation with the divisional
Speaker 2: Mulla on the scope and severity of punishment to legitimize
Speaker 2: the military justice system. And this was huge too. Hagendorff
Speaker 2: recalled also that he said often these emams. What they'd
Speaker 2: recommend was usually substantially more severe than what the secular
Speaker 2: go to German military justice and the vermach and Sys
Speaker 2: otherwise demanded. You know, so in practice, these emails acted
Speaker 2: as intermediaries with a European and Christian military justice system
Speaker 2: that nevertheless, you know, abided Islamic principles and its punitive aspect.
Speaker 2: And this this insinuated legitimacy into it that otherwise would
Speaker 2: be lacking. Around the same time May ninety forty three,
Speaker 2: gottlab Burger he issued a formal decree from the main Office.
Speaker 2: It was on the quote ideological spiritual education of them
Speaker 2: of the Maslim ss divisions, and it formally identified emovs
Speaker 2: as the most important transmitters of political and religious education
Speaker 2: within Moslim formations. It made clear that the emphasis was
Speaker 2: to be on the common enemies of Germans and Moslims,
Speaker 2: you know, Judaism, quote Anglo Americanism, communism, freemasonry, secularism, you know,
Speaker 2: and that these shared ideals, including militancy and the marshal ethos,
Speaker 2: the role of morality, of tradition, of upright manliness, and
Speaker 2: you know, like all this is what brought together National
Speaker 2: Socialists of of of different faiths, you know, whether they
Speaker 2: be the Protestant, Catholic or Moslem. And you know, again Burger,
Speaker 2: the more I dive into I was I was researching
Speaker 2: his battle record and his career in the ss ohing
Speaker 2: to like a different, a related but distinguishable subject matter,
Speaker 2: and I he he was just an amazing guy. You
Speaker 2: really only find footnotes about him as oh he was
Speaker 2: this big war criminal in this brute or he's described,
Speaker 2: you know, kind of similar terms to Martin Borman. It's just, oh,
Speaker 2: he was just a sort of creet and this function here,
Speaker 2: not not at all. And for a military man he
Speaker 2: he had, he had a lot of deep esoteric interests.
Speaker 2: And I I think that Boa has attracted those types frankly,
Speaker 2: you know, not not just romantics and dreamers, but there
Speaker 2: was Orientalism was literally coded into it, you know. I mean,
Speaker 2: that's why the Proud and Book on Genghis Khan was
Speaker 2: required reading at SSH Younger school, and of course Yaka
Speaker 2: and Piper wrote his senior thesis on the Proud and
Speaker 2: Book and Genghis Khan. But I mean, I think it's
Speaker 2: I Schopenhower was an Orientalist and I you know, Chopenhower
Speaker 2: more than Nietzsche, was the patron philosopher of the of
Speaker 2: the German, right I think. But yeah, we're coming up
Speaker 2: on the hour, man. I I uh, I hope he
Speaker 2: are finding this educational and interesting and we'll we'll wrap
Speaker 2: it up the next episode, I promise. Awesome.
Speaker 1: Awesome, That's what I was gonna ask if we if
Speaker 1: you have another episode in this and is is that
Speaker 1: the app are you going to be getting into post war?
Speaker 2: I'd like to do war? Okay, yeah, I mean, I
Speaker 2: mean it's your show literally, like I mean, if you're
Speaker 2: a minimal of that of the subs. The main thing
Speaker 2: is that you're happy and the subs are finding this interesting,
Speaker 2: and then I promise we'll get back to the thirty
Speaker 2: years War.
Speaker 1: No problem at all. Remind everybody go over to real
Speaker 1: Thomas seven seven seven dot substack dot com. It's probably
Speaker 1: the best way to connect to Thomas, and can go
Speaker 1: to his website Thomas seven seven seven dot com. The
Speaker 1: T and Thomas is a seven and basically you can
Speaker 1: connect to him everywhere from there. From those places, it's
Speaker 1: a firm Thank you, Thomas.
Speaker 2: Appreciate than Youddy.
Speaker 1: I want to welcome everyone back to the Pekiniana show.
Speaker 1: Thomas is here and a little meeting series doing on
Speaker 1: Islam and the Third Reich and Germany in general. We're
Speaker 1: going to close that out today. So you know, what
Speaker 1: we've heard from the subs is they're really enjoying this.
Speaker 1: So thank you for the recommendation on this great subject.
Speaker 1: I've learned a lot and you know, take it away.
Speaker 2: Thank you. That makes me very happy, and I appreciate
Speaker 2: the subs and their kind words and feedback. That's essential.
Speaker 2: This is an important subject matter for a lot of reasons.
Speaker 2: I generally agree with Aarm's and Lolty. Islamic dialectics are
Speaker 2: very important to the post Cold War historical process in
Speaker 2: conceptual terms. I don't think that needs to be said additionally,
Speaker 2: and I'm including this as sort of an addendum to
Speaker 2: my manuscript. That's one of the reasons I haven't submitted
Speaker 2: it for formal editing to a publisher. Yet. There's this myth,
Speaker 2: some of which derives from the testimony of Albert Spear,
Speaker 2: which I consider it to be not remotely credible. Obviously,
Speaker 2: he described the final months of the German Reich as
Speaker 2: Hitler developing this sort of nihilistic apathy punctuated by fits
Speaker 2: of rage and an impulse to sort of burn everything down.
Speaker 2: Hitler's actions don't indicate that. And I've emphasized I'm bringing
Speaker 2: this back to the subject matter. I'm not on a
Speaker 2: CENL tangent. I promise I emphasize the fact of don
Speaker 2: and it's being designated as successor not just because Hitler
Speaker 2: thought that he was a man the Allies would find
Speaker 2: acceptable and they did. Other than the Yodel, he was
Speaker 2: really the only number of defendant that people in the
Speaker 2: United Kingdom, not just the Admiralty, but a lot of
Speaker 2: the aristocracy and even people in the war cabinet came
Speaker 2: to the defense of. But also there was an understanding
Speaker 2: that the post war world would need some sort of
Speaker 2: resistance legacy if Europe was going to survive, and if
Speaker 2: the national socialist cause was going to survive, albeit in
Speaker 2: a historically contingent configure. A And that's a subject for
Speaker 2: a whole wet a whole series on that, And like
Speaker 2: I said, I'm dedicating the final third approximately of my
Speaker 2: manuscript to the subject matter. One of the only authors
Speaker 2: who I think truly understands that and who really understands
Speaker 2: that there was a fascist international of a sort during
Speaker 2: the Cold War, and beyond is Kevin Coogan. He was
Speaker 2: an unusual guy. He wrote a biography of Francis Yaki
Speaker 2: he called Dreamer of the Day Francis perkerct Yaki in
Speaker 2: the Post were Fascist International. This was released in nineteen
Speaker 2: ninety nine. It's actually a fantastic book. H Ke Thompson
Speaker 2: contributed to it and allowed his testimony to be included.
Speaker 2: Elsa Davitt, who was a longtime mistress of Francis Yaki.
Speaker 2: She participated in and proffered a lot of her testimony,
Speaker 2: as well as personal effects and papers that belonged to
Speaker 2: Yachi into things. You know, Coogan's definitely a left winger,
Speaker 2: but of a more serious type. And I mean the
Speaker 2: fact that some of these personages we're willing to participate
Speaker 2: in the book project speaks for itself. It's not a
Speaker 2: purely punitive treatment, but the real value of it, especially
Speaker 2: if you're reading it as a researcher. There's a couple
Speaker 2: of hundred pages of footnotes and endnotes that are really incredible,
Speaker 2: including a substantial amount of material about Johann van Leer's
Speaker 2: about They're vague and the National Socialists distance in Argentina
Speaker 2: and then in the Near East, and I highly recommend
Speaker 2: that book to students of the subject matter as well
Speaker 2: as people who are just curious students of history want
Speaker 2: to get a better understanding of the subject matter. But
Speaker 2: I raised Coogan not just because I like that book,
Speaker 2: but you know, again, he's one of the only authors
Speaker 2: I know of who has a deep understanding of this
Speaker 2: phenomenon and the efforts, particularly of the SS and the
Speaker 2: SD to curate a national socialist sensibility among Maslim populations.
Speaker 2: This ramped up in earnest in the final year and
Speaker 2: a half of the war, when it became clear that
Speaker 2: en zeg was no longer possible. And it's not because
Speaker 2: everybody was delusional. It's not owing to some desperation born
Speaker 2: of manpower shortages or any of those confabulations. It was
Speaker 2: because at base and particularly in the s S, the
Speaker 2: truly diehard National socialists who were ideologically committed. They had
Speaker 2: a profoundly Hegelian view of the war and of the
Speaker 2: historical process generally. And of course Germany was not a
Speaker 2: stranger to these sorts of apocalyptic conditions. We're talking about
Speaker 2: our thirty years War series. I think in the first
Speaker 2: episode we were talking about a Hitler himself and Spear,
Speaker 2: speaking of Spear as well as many personages within the
Speaker 2: traditional military establishment as well as the National Socialist cadre
Speaker 2: that took over the government. The historical polestar of these
Speaker 2: people was the Thirty Years War and the destruction of Germany,
Speaker 2: the destruction of the First Reich and the scattering of
Speaker 2: the German racial organism to the proverbial four wins. And
Speaker 2: in their mind, it had taken centuries to reconstitute the
Speaker 2: German nation and to bring years into a organizational modality
Speaker 2: whereby it could fulfill its historical mission, and in their estimation,
Speaker 2: this had taken close to three centuries. So there was
Speaker 2: an understanding that a similar process was emergent in nineteen
Speaker 2: forty four forty five, and there was the added challenge
Speaker 2: of a world dominated by the Communists and by the
Speaker 2: American Zionist occupation that was looming. Both of these challenges
Speaker 2: were related. That's why these ideological schema were quite literally allied,
Speaker 2: but they were also very distinguishable in terms of what
Speaker 2: they represented and what they were trying to accomplish, and
Speaker 2: in terms of creating a global political regime and the
Speaker 2: tactics required to counteract those efforts to break people up.
Speaker 2: Their identitarian characteristics and historical memory were somewhat different depending
Speaker 2: on whether the populations in question were those situated in
Speaker 2: the East or in the West, and Maslim populations were
Speaker 2: under unique pressure from the communists, and that this endured
Speaker 2: throughout the existence of the Soviet Union. The Islamic revolt
Speaker 2: was one of many proximate causes that ultimately brought brought
Speaker 2: the Soviet Union down. I think that's irrebutable. So that's
Speaker 2: something that is important to understand here, and that's one
Speaker 2: of the reasons why this remains a relevant, irrelevant subject matter.
Speaker 2: It's not just some sort of trivial curiosity related to
Speaker 2: aspects of the war that are sort of not commonly emphasized,
Speaker 2: but the role of the grand movety to to change
Speaker 2: focused just a little bit. The way that he's cast
Speaker 2: in the historical record is somewhat incorrect. There's people with
Speaker 2: a superficial understanding of national socialism, and there's some Palestinian
Speaker 2: liberation is to mean well, but they they're somewhat conceptually
Speaker 2: impoverished in their understanding of the historical record. They cast
Speaker 2: the moved he as almost like a Palestinian Naser. That's
Speaker 2: not really accurate. I mean the point that I believe
Speaker 2: if he can be analogized to any contemporary it'd be
Speaker 2: said Kutu. And if you know anything about Islam, and
Speaker 2: particularly highest Sunni Islam, the role of a mofti is
Speaker 2: not that of a political soldier. It's different. There's definitely
Speaker 2: a partisan aspect that goes up saying but the move
Speaker 2: He also he didn't have a sense of pan Arabism.
Speaker 2: What became sort of the rallying cry of the of
Speaker 2: the resistance in the Near East, which was a combination
Speaker 2: of pan Arabism and a an East block aligned but
Speaker 2: this but discernibly non communist uh sort of militant socialism.
Speaker 2: That was not what he viewed as the way forward
Speaker 2: for Palestinians. And he was absolutely a pan Islamist, but
Speaker 2: he didn't he didn't view pan Arabisms as a meaningful concept. Then, frankly,
Speaker 2: it's not. On the other side, Zionists then and now
Speaker 2: have tried cast the move he as sort of a
Speaker 2: Palestinian Kodriano or some sort of or some sort of
Speaker 2: ethnosectarian national wist who's a mirror of themselves, of themselves
Speaker 2: who wanted to annihilate Jewelry owing to some sort of
Speaker 2: highly binary, zero sum concept of racial and sectarian struggle
Speaker 2: in the region. That's naked propaganda. And interestingly, when people
Speaker 2: in the Churchill government, who are particularly sympathetic to designs perspective,
Speaker 2: tried to convince the Home Office of these things and
Speaker 2: as far as trying to push the British authorities is
Speaker 2: trying to capture the Al Husseini. This was quickly quashed
Speaker 2: and British intelligence simply refused to pursue it. And there
Speaker 2: was an internal memo that indicated that this was a
Speaker 2: propaganda effort devised by Zionus on the ground, who were
Speaker 2: concerned about a leadership cadre reconstituting among their enemies, which
Speaker 2: they pretty successfully decapitated by this juncture. And to be
Speaker 2: clear that mof he was in exile from nineteen thirty
Speaker 2: six one. Going to the Arab revolt, the Arab revolt
Speaker 2: is complicated. I don't want to deep dive into that
Speaker 2: right now. Briefly, it was a general strike. It was
Speaker 2: it uprising as more and more European Jews streamed into Palestine.
Speaker 2: It became clear that the Palestinians were going to be
Speaker 2: ethnically cleansed, okay, And we talked about how the the
Speaker 2: British were inconsistent and how they responded to ethnosectarian violence
Speaker 2: and you know, categorical attacks upon Palestinians to realize annihilation
Speaker 2: oriented goals by the Desions. So this represented an existential fear.
Speaker 2: It wasn't just a question of resistance to Palestine being
Speaker 2: dominated by a hostile Jewish majority. On the ground, there
Speaker 2: was an element among the Palestinians under Arms two that
Speaker 2: had always favored an armed struggle, and their reasoning was,
Speaker 2: we've got to pull the trigger now before the situation
Speaker 2: deteriorate the point that it's no longer possible. There was
Speaker 2: a a pious Islamist organization that was also highly militant,
Speaker 2: led by eas Alden al Cassam. He was a shakh
Speaker 2: and something of a lesser aristocrat, but it was also
Speaker 2: a dedicated revolutionary and as early as the mid nineties
Speaker 2: twenties he was demanding that money that was coming into
Speaker 2: mosques the equivalent of alms, be spent on arms and
Speaker 2: military needs rather than on you know, proselytizing and and
Speaker 2: traditional ecclesiastical to activities and things of that nature, you know,
Speaker 2: the equivalent they're in. This caused tension between him and
Speaker 2: al Husseini. He'd approached al Husseini and and tried to
Speaker 2: cultivate his friendship and asked to be brought on to
Speaker 2: the Supreme Moslem Council as an itinerant preacher of sorts,
Speaker 2: and Husseini turned him away, but did help him find
Speaker 2: a permanent place and a mosque that would be more
Speaker 2: receptive to his revolutionary concepts. This is due to some
Speaker 2: people too, including again some Palestinian liberationists who mean well
Speaker 2: today as being perfidest and Alossini being political. I don't
Speaker 2: think that's fair. And Alssini also knew that his people
Speaker 2: weren't in a position to win at that moment. He
Speaker 2: was continuing to try and curate a relationship with the
Speaker 2: British too, out of necessity, owing to again the hopelessness
Speaker 2: of the military situation at that juncture. But as it
Speaker 2: happened in nineteen thirty six, a general strike did kick off,
Speaker 2: and once the uprising began, the move he stowed with Palestine.
Speaker 2: He was very much accused though, of fermenting this and
Speaker 2: being a leader of it. The British commanders on the ground,
Speaker 2: who he curated a relationship with, I believe they talked
Speaker 2: to the Foreign Office and British intelligence and that's why
Speaker 2: the move he wasn't harmed. He was allowed to live
Speaker 2: in exile relatively undisturbed at that juncture, because you know,
Speaker 2: it was it was clear that he wasn't devising a
Speaker 2: revolutionary resistance movement, He wasn't trying to force a kinetic
Speaker 2: outcome to then extend conditions. But this was when al
Speaker 2: was saying he began approaching representatives of the Third Reich,
Speaker 2: and they began approaching him, and we talked about gottlab
Speaker 2: Burger and elements within the both the algass and in
Speaker 2: various party offices who viewed this as imperative, and Aloix
Speaker 2: saying he only met with Hitler face to face once
Speaker 2: in November nineteen forty one. But the fact that he
Speaker 2: met him at all is remarkable because it was not
Speaker 2: easy to get access to Hitler. What he was able
Speaker 2: to procure Hitler guaranteed and he convinced al Duce to
Speaker 2: co sign this guarantee that after the defeat of the
Speaker 2: British Empire, Palestine would become an Arab state and it
Speaker 2: would be ethnically cleansed of Jews. Whether the Mufti would
Speaker 2: become the ruler of that state, I find that unlikely. Again,
Speaker 2: there's it's complicated how traditional Islamic authority is organized. You
Speaker 2: need to be clear. People get the people have this
Speaker 2: misconception because first of all, the look at the place
Speaker 2: like Iran, and of course there's a there's a sectarian
Speaker 2: divide there because She and Sunni are very different, and
Speaker 2: even within those broad sects, there's there's there's there's differences
Speaker 2: within Sunni Islam and She Islam that are profound. The
Speaker 2: Iranian government and called itself the revolutionary government because it's
Speaker 2: not this reactionary regime. The FUCO one of the few
Speaker 2: essays he wrote that oriented towards ideological practice, that that's
Speaker 2: a in a you know, direct capacity. He went to
Speaker 2: Tehran as the revolution was underway, and he made the
Speaker 2: point that this was something people hadn't seen before. It
Speaker 2: wasn't some reactionary regime of clerics. It was very much
Speaker 2: an Islamic movement, but it was a hybrid ideology that
Speaker 2: was a truly third position as tendency in the true sense.
Speaker 2: Okay Al Hussini didn't represent some Sunni of that. And
Speaker 2: also once what became the Palestinian Liberation movement, it's proverbial
Speaker 2: dna is in the Arab revolt and in the men
Speaker 2: who they took inspiration from and the move He wasn't
Speaker 2: really part of that. You know, he definitely was a partisan,
Speaker 2: and he took on the function of a political soldier
Speaker 2: as he became insinuated into the SS organization. But military
Speaker 2: command and political credibility became inextricably bound up in theater,
Speaker 2: and that some of that duras to this day. But
Speaker 2: you know, it's not this idea that the move He
Speaker 2: simply approached Hitler because he had ambitions to become Emperor
Speaker 2: of Palestine or the the boss of the Arab Committee
Speaker 2: or something, and wanted to parlay that into authority over
Speaker 2: a Palestinian ethno state that was going to emerge at
Speaker 2: NC guy that I don't think that's credible. What was
Speaker 2: important was that he got a guarantee from Hitler. He
Speaker 2: had the patronage of the Axis, and it guaranteed that
Speaker 2: forces would be brought to bear and Hitler made clear
Speaker 2: to him. Hitler said he believed in the Arab people,
Speaker 2: and he believed in the in the Santy's cause, which
Speaker 2: I think was true. But he also said that the
Speaker 2: German Reich had essential interests in the region and they
Speaker 2: expected the Palestinians to help those things be realized. So
Speaker 2: obviously it was a real politic aspect of this too.
Speaker 2: But both men came to realize also that this had
Speaker 2: become a planetary struggle, you know, And by November nineteen
Speaker 2: forty one, America wasn't as a I mean America the
Speaker 2: fact it was at war with Germany from September ninety
Speaker 2: forty one onwards, the Reich was the Wehrmacht was closing
Speaker 2: in on Moscow, and it became clear that the struggle
Speaker 2: was global in character, and even after final victory was realized,
Speaker 2: which appeared to be eminent as a November nineteen forty one,
Speaker 2: no Germany needed allies in newly liberated, formally colonial spaces.
Speaker 2: But there was also a basic affinity and that's coded
Speaker 2: into national socialism through influences like Schopenhauer and things, and
Speaker 2: the German character generally. Hitler wasn't some orientalists like von Weiers,
Speaker 2: but I think it's clear to all but the most
Speaker 2: literal and binary minds when I'm getting it. And towards
Speaker 2: that I mentioned before about Oprah group and Feler and
Speaker 2: Genaha devafansis got lab Burger, who I think was a
Speaker 2: fascinating individual, and he was a key personage in forcing
Speaker 2: the through policies within the SS relating to the alliance
Speaker 2: with not just the Palestinians and al Hussini, but with
Speaker 2: the Islamic nationalities in the East. He clarified. Berger said,
Speaker 2: and I'm paraphrasing the relationship between Islam and national socialism.
Speaker 2: There's a vocush imperative, but what is not intended is
Speaker 2: a synthesis. He said. Quote it is not intended to
Speaker 2: find a synthesis of Islam and national socialism or to
Speaker 2: impose national socialism in the Maslims. Rather, national socialism is
Speaker 2: to be seen as the genuine, focused German worldview, while
Speaker 2: Islam is to be seen as the genuine, focused Arabic worldview.
Speaker 2: He was using Arabic as a stand in for I mean,
Speaker 2: obviously the land of the prophet and the Arabic language
Speaker 2: and Muhammad himself means that Arab cultural forms have an
Speaker 2: outsized significance in Islam. He was using Arabic in the
Speaker 2: Arabic world view in a Shpangalarrian sense to include, you know,
Speaker 2: in most of the Islamic element under the Reich authority,
Speaker 2: where we're not Arab. And again there was this emphasis
Speaker 2: on Sarajevo in specifically in Bosnia as the as the
Speaker 2: heartland of European Islam, and thus they were to be
Speaker 2: given priority. And Berger emphasized that. And mind you, Berger
Speaker 2: was h he was second only to the Reich's fear
Speaker 2: ss Himmler in his rank. He had a rank equivalent
Speaker 2: to Paul Hauser and scept Dietrich, so he his word
Speaker 2: was a law within the organization. Then he clarified that
Speaker 2: the Moslems, the Balkans were racially part of the Germanic
Speaker 2: world well ideologically and spiritually part of the Arab world.
Speaker 2: So he said, among other things, these Balkan Moslem peoples,
Speaker 2: they represent, you know what the complimentary aspects are of
Speaker 2: this alliance and this unity of veldenstrong against communism and jewelry.
Speaker 2: And he continued by saying, through the deployment of a
Speaker 2: Maslim SS division speaking of the Bosniacs here they're made
Speaker 2: hereby for the first time the established a connection between
Speaker 2: Islam and national socialism, or rather between the Arab and
Speaker 2: the Germanic world, and an open, honest basis as this
Speaker 2: division in terms of blood and race is influenced by
Speaker 2: the North in terms of ideology and contrast by the
Speaker 2: orient I think I got into in the last episode.
Speaker 2: I tried to clarify by reference to my outlines what
Speaker 2: I covered, So stop me if I'm being redundant. But
Speaker 2: in nineteen forty four the SS head office at behest
Speaker 2: the Burger, they established two Islamic centers for religious education.
Speaker 2: The first one, which I think I got into a bit,
Speaker 2: was open in April nineteen forty four. It was in
Speaker 2: a small town called Kuben in Brandenburg. This was this
Speaker 2: was the e Mom Institute, and we talked about emoms
Speaker 2: in NAVAF and SS and the important role they played
Speaker 2: at not just division level of a company and even
Speaker 2: platoon level. And this El Hussini himself attended a ceremony
Speaker 2: with the gott Love Burger and an email nam Hussein Disozo,
Speaker 2: who was a Bosniac. More significant, particularly to the subject
Speaker 2: matter that I started this discussion with with what was
Speaker 2: colloquially called the ss Mullus school. It was, it didn't
Speaker 2: formally it wasn't formally established until November forty four, and
Speaker 2: once again there was an inauguration ceremony tailored to celebrate
Speaker 2: enough to size a Germanic Masliam alliance. The opening speech
Speaker 2: was proffered by Walter Schellenberg, and the end of the
Speaker 2: Soviet was interesting because again it it seemed very much
Speaker 2: codd Swards of post war world and proceeding under hostile
Speaker 2: occupation without without resulting the language that suggested what in
Speaker 2: the national social ideological culture would be looked upon pejoratively
Speaker 2: as defeatism. But the crux of Schellensberg's speech was the
Speaker 2: historical associations, the traditional bonds between the kaiser Reich and
Speaker 2: Daryl Islam, the longstanding support for Moslim peoples who were
Speaker 2: besieged by Jewish tyranny. And it emphasized too that the
Speaker 2: Soviet Union, by its very existence it represented a slow
Speaker 2: not just on focused ways of life, but on all
Speaker 2: confessional practices and cultural spread Usians first among them Islam,
Speaker 2: and Schellenberg specifically said that the focused core of Russia
Speaker 2: had been destroyed for all practical purposes and totally deracinated,
Speaker 2: and that the non Russian people under occupation and on
Speaker 2: the periphery of the Soviet Empire were similarly being targeted
Speaker 2: for destruction and their fate would be the same as
Speaker 2: that of the Russians if an effective resistance wasn't cultivated
Speaker 2: and the only way that that could be realized is
Speaker 2: by the dual commits meant of to racial hygiene and
Speaker 2: confessional piousness. And in this respect, Schellenberg said Islam was
Speaker 2: the quote custodian of the Eastern people and their biological
Speaker 2: substance as well as their confessional heritage in linear terms
Speaker 2: back to the time of the Prophet, and he concluded
Speaker 2: by saying that because the Bolsheviks lack traditions in the past,
Speaker 2: they're not long for this earth, but that Moslims are
Speaker 2: able to cope with the future no matter what hardships emerge,
Speaker 2: because not just to the racial purity of the several
Speaker 2: populations who are very tribally randed who constituted the Eastern Mauslims,
Speaker 2: but that basically their faith would carry them through the
Speaker 2: historical destruction of Bolshevism and the and the racially impure,
Speaker 2: uh interventioned, who are the standard bearers of the Bolshevik ideology,
Speaker 2: who are really just the vestigial remnants of the Russian
Speaker 2: racial corps that died in the Soviet death camps. Very
Speaker 2: very heady stuff, not not not typical, just sort of
Speaker 2: grab bag propaganda, you know, And this is important. And
Speaker 2: the Moullas School it was, it was far larger than
Speaker 2: the Email School. It was based at this villa in UH,
Speaker 2: this affluent neighborhood outside of Dresden. There was this Victor Klemper.
Speaker 2: He was this Jewish writer who curiously, you know, didn't
Speaker 2: get like shot shot into space or something by the
Speaker 2: Nazi Holocaust. But he was a lot of people, I think,
Speaker 2: including Shier, William Shier, who wrote a very silly book
Speaker 2: that a lot of quote historians hold out as some
Speaker 2: great treatment of the Third Reich. Of course Shira pulled it.
Speaker 2: There was a rise and fall of the Third Roag
Speaker 2: and then there was the Nightmare Years. That's a that's
Speaker 2: an objective and not at all a sterical title for
Speaker 2: a history book. But Victor Klemfery he kept diaries and
Speaker 2: he documented his observations on various things.
Speaker 1: They really like to keep diaries, don't they.
Speaker 2: Well, to be fair, that was something people did in
Speaker 2: those days. I mean I'm talking actual people, not fictitious
Speaker 2: diaries of you know, girls who wrote like Judy Bloom
Speaker 2: books that were marketed for like nineteen seventies junior high students.
Speaker 2: You know most I mean, Goebels was especially prolific. But
Speaker 2: Yodel kept a diary. So did Kitle, so did Rosenberg,
Speaker 2: Alfred Rosenberg, so did Erhard Milch. But no, I take
Speaker 2: your point. But Klemper's diary I believe was real. And
Speaker 2: he noted he was observing obviously from without the you know,
Speaker 2: what was going on in this old but rather stately property,
Speaker 2: which I believe is a repurpose to hotel in blasphets
Speaker 2: this this neighborhood of Dresden, and he said there was
Speaker 2: a quote mysterious Moslem study group there this if you
Speaker 2: want to relate. But I uh, when I read that,
Speaker 2: I just I had this funny image of this like
Speaker 2: little neverish dude like kicking out at uh at things
Speaker 2: like ss going out of this coughing building and say,
Speaker 2: what's what does going on? I don't know, Maybe I
Speaker 2: am from the silly, silly kind of ship like that.
Speaker 2: But uh moving on it. Uh, it can't uh something
Speaker 2: that something you can't you can't. You can't chug this
Speaker 2: up to some sort of you know, effort to corral
Speaker 2: halfless pow using the frontline service or something the flesh
Speaker 2: out the ranks of of devastated divisions and battalions. You know.
Speaker 2: The people suggest that sort of thing, don't know the
Speaker 2: the subject matter. And there was a a a guy
Speaker 2: named Rayner Shakcha Olshacha. He was assigned to set things
Speaker 2: up in the Moulla school and uh make it culturally
Speaker 2: compliant with the students who'd be attending it. So old
Speaker 2: Shaka ol Shatcha. He decked out the interior building in
Speaker 2: ways that reflect did Islamic architectural styles. The main entrance
Speaker 2: hall was decorated with a mosaic patterns specifically after mosques
Speaker 2: in Central Asia. There was a lot of you know,
Speaker 2: Islamic artifacts on loan from museums in the Greater German Reich.
Speaker 2: There was Kuranic verses and calligraphy painted into the walls.
Speaker 2: There was a prayer niche in one of the main
Speaker 2: assembly areas. There was an ornate prayer Hall, which was
Speaker 2: sort of the center of activity on the ground floor,
Speaker 2: you know, And so I mean the assessment out of
Speaker 2: their way to create an authentically Islamic environment, and they
Speaker 2: went as far as to hire Kurt Erdman. He was
Speaker 2: the foremost expert on Islamic culture and art history in
Speaker 2: the Oriental department of the Pergamon Museum in Berlin. And
Speaker 2: he consulted with architects from Berlin and Dresden to mock
Speaker 2: this up, and it took half a year. You know.
Speaker 2: There was a great library. It had Islamic, authentic Islamic
Speaker 2: texts from France, from Bosnia, from the Netherlands, including rare,
Speaker 2: ancient and texts that have been purchased. In Sarajevo. Around
Speaker 2: this time, anybody, no matter there, any uh, any folks,
Speaker 2: Deutsche or any any any non Jewish Auslander could obtain
Speaker 2: a free Koran from the Propaganda ministry just by asking
Speaker 2: for one. There weren't a lot of Qurans that have
Speaker 2: been properly translated into German, so an effort was made
Speaker 2: to remedy that by the Propaganda Ministry. And one of
Speaker 2: the reasons for these efforts was the s S wanted
Speaker 2: to attract top religious scholars and imams to teach at
Speaker 2: the school, but also to attend it for political education
Speaker 2: and military education within the SS model. And reading between
Speaker 2: the lines, you know, again this is the last year
Speaker 2: that wore under desperate conditions. They were looking to build cadres.
Speaker 2: They were looking to build dedicated national socialist cadres within
Speaker 2: these populations for a post war world. You know. I
Speaker 2: that should be clear to anybody who understands what they're
Speaker 2: looking at. Metaphorically speaking, I think Alan John Idris or Idris,
Speaker 2: he was coveted as director of the Mullus School, but
Speaker 2: he was still in the service of the Propaganda Ministry
Speaker 2: as well as the Foreign Office, and he was the
Speaker 2: top man in charge of propaganda in the Islamic world,
Speaker 2: and neither the Foreign Office nor the nor Goebels would
Speaker 2: let him go, you know. And again this they were
Speaker 2: emphasizing the propaganda aspect in the theater in Palestine as
Speaker 2: well as in among the nationalities and in the Soviet Union,
Speaker 2: and uh of course in in Bosnia. But the Bosniacs again,
Speaker 2: they they they were they were racial Europeans and most
Speaker 2: of them we're multi lingualed just because O where they lived,
Speaker 2: you know, and they had a privileged position within within
Speaker 2: the the Reich, so it was it would have been
Speaker 2: a redundant to make them the focus group of these efforts,
Speaker 2: if you follow me. But nevertheless, ultimately the propaganda ministry
Speaker 2: they let Idriss preside over the Moullas school three days
Speaker 2: a week. He was young, comparatively charismatic. He was very
Speaker 2: modern and had Western habits. He had a great admiration
Speaker 2: for the European culture, and he assimilated very well into
Speaker 2: Germany culturally. But he was also a very, very UH
Speaker 2: dedicated Moslim. He was kind of viewed as the model
Speaker 2: Maslim national socialist. He had a son who UH worked
Speaker 2: as an interpreter and then ultimately joined UH the Eastern
Speaker 2: Maslim SS Corps in the final year of the war.
Speaker 2: And that obviously was I mean, I anybody who joined
Speaker 2: that late in the game knew there's a good chance
Speaker 2: they weren't coming home. I mean, he was a dedicated
Speaker 2: he was coming to the jihad. But he this also
Speaker 2: was something of a propagandic coup. You know, look, this
Speaker 2: wealthy Malas offering up his son to fight for the Reich.
Speaker 2: It's no small thing. Obviously, you know, and the and
Speaker 2: the SS uh it says that I'm only employing Moslims
Speaker 2: as teachers in the mother school in contrast to the
Speaker 2: Wehrmacht and in contrast to other party institutions that dealt
Speaker 2: with the education and putical indoctrination of Moslim peoples. The
Speaker 2: ss took this very seriously, you know, and that that
Speaker 2: tracks with its overall orientation, you know, the it's a
Speaker 2: fascinating sort of aspect to the Reich's relationship to Romania.
Speaker 2: You know, Hitler uh Antonescu and Hitler we are very close.
Speaker 2: And Antonescua was probably the fears best ally, and I
Speaker 2: mean Romania sacrificed tremendously for the Axis cause and also
Speaker 2: the fact that they when Stalin began World War two
Speaker 2: with his War of Conquest, obviously, Romania was very much
Speaker 2: in the crosshairs of of Moscow. So there was an
Speaker 2: existential imperative as to why they'd welcome the Vermacht deploying
Speaker 2: its scale there. But also obviously Escu not only to
Speaker 2: commit close to a quarter million men the Barbarosa, but
Speaker 2: he availed Romania as a staging ground for a huge
Speaker 2: component of like forces and being in operational terms. But later,
Speaker 2: you know, anton Escu he presided over the brief national
Speaker 2: legionary state and then he banned the Iron Guard owing
Speaker 2: to what he viewed as their revolutionary subversion. This was
Speaker 2: in the aftermath of this is when Sema had succeeded Kodriano,
Speaker 2: who'd been murdered. But the SS famously they backed the
Speaker 2: Iron Guard against Kodrianuh, who the fear of himself, you know,
Speaker 2: unconditionally back Kadriyanu. That there was an SS ideology into
Speaker 2: itself which was very pan European, very revolutionary, very very different,
Speaker 2: not just from the Wehrmachten, traditional German society and even
Speaker 2: traditional German military culture, but distinguishable from the mainstream of
Speaker 2: the NSDAP as well. And I find it fascinating. But
Speaker 2: to bring it back to the subject at hand, one
Speaker 2: thing that the Mulla School emphasized, and this is another
Speaker 2: reason why they insisted on on Moslim teachers exclusively the
Speaker 2: theological program. It was very oriented towards overcoming sectarian hostilities,
Speaker 2: and in the SS tried to prioritize bridging the divide
Speaker 2: between scenes and sites. There's a constant emphasis against religious sectarianism.
Speaker 2: Among Moslems, you know, and traditionally in in Wehrmacht units
Speaker 2: where traditionally she and sounes we were segregated, and the
Speaker 2: ss were not only refused to do that, but they
Speaker 2: pursued an anti sectarian line. And the emphasis again was
Speaker 2: that this schism was contrived by men who coveted worldly
Speaker 2: power after the the center of the prophet of heaven,
Speaker 2: and that the current struggle where the the dual threat
Speaker 2: in existential terms to the Islamic faith and to the
Speaker 2: race of the nationalities and populations that constituted darl Islam.
Speaker 2: That calls for a healing of the schism, even were
Speaker 2: it not a contrivance promised on worldly and thus actually
Speaker 2: vertically corrupt the ambitions, you know. And again the implication,
Speaker 2: in my opinion is obvious. It's, you know, we a
Speaker 2: political soldier looking ahead circa nineteen forty four forty five
Speaker 2: needs to adopted as primary concern the racial survival of
Speaker 2: his people and the continuity of his faith on this planet,
Speaker 2: you know, in the face of the dual assault of
Speaker 2: Zionism and communism, and will will stop. It's there. I
Speaker 2: hope this wasn't. I hope people got something out of this.
Speaker 2: I mean, I I presume they did, because people have
Speaker 2: been very nice in their feedback.
Speaker 1: No, I mean, if anything, I would like to hear
Speaker 1: more people not talk about Islam like they're a boomer
Speaker 1: right after nine to eleven.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I mean they're they're they're idiots. That's one
Speaker 2: of the reasons. I mean, they're we we we've got
Speaker 2: Islamic comrades who are great. But beyond that, you know,
Speaker 2: I don't. But the same that people lip off at
Speaker 2: me about World War two or about the law. It's like, oh,
Speaker 2: you're the expert, you know how. I like, you watch
Speaker 2: a lot of you watch a lot of TV, you
Speaker 2: watch a lot of cable legacy media, so you're you're
Speaker 2: an Islam expert. I mean, I that's why. That's the
Speaker 2: reason I emphasize these topics, because even in supposedly dissit
Speaker 2: encoded spaces, these people are conceptual a literates by and large,
Speaker 2: but you can't. The finly reason I'm trying to get
Speaker 2: more more guys who have a theological expertise or their
Speaker 2: background is you know, in in a Bible, Christianity or
Speaker 2: Catholicism or Orthodoxy or Islam. Because that's I mean, at
Speaker 2: the end of the day, I mean, I like what
Speaker 2: we've talked about. It's I'm more a capital T radical
Speaker 2: traditionist than i am anything probably. I mean you're talking
Speaker 2: about like my political philosophy, you know, I mean, I
Speaker 2: identify as a yacky as national socialists. But what the
Speaker 2: uh it's reneeing on. It's Mercia Eliotti, Julius evil. That's
Speaker 2: a substantial part of my canon if you want all
Speaker 2: it like that, okay. And there's this kind of dummy
Speaker 2: anti intellectualism that's just hostile to theology and religion, you know,
Speaker 2: I mean that that's common to any epoch really, you know,
Speaker 2: even people I've verad that point with some of our
Speaker 2: Orthodox friends and some of our Catholic friends who view
Speaker 2: the Medieval era as a period of high culture that's
Speaker 2: unduly maligned, which is absolutely true. Casting the Middle Ages
Speaker 2: is a sort of hellish time of cultural poverty. I mean,
Speaker 2: that's ridiculous. I mean, I don't know how any I
Speaker 2: don't know how any Anglophone person can think that way anyway.
Speaker 2: I mean arthury and lore and the Ulster cycle. If
Speaker 2: you're somebody like me, that's second only to the King
Speaker 2: James Bible, you know, you know, like I and that
Speaker 2: that that comes out of the horrifying medieval era, you know,
Speaker 2: But beyond that, I think some people they kind of
Speaker 2: view with the orals colored glasses, they this idea, Oh well,
Speaker 2: then there's this, there's this integrated concept you know that
Speaker 2: they mean in terms of trifunctional hypothesis, but they mean
Speaker 2: that religious life informed everyday sensibilities. And that's somewhat true.
Speaker 2: But I think it was and I think most people
Speaker 2: and not about class. This this this doesn't know class
Speaker 2: in terms of where these sensibilities are concentrated. But I
Speaker 2: think most people even then it was a very kind
Speaker 2: of superficial thing. You know, people always gonna look at
Speaker 2: scance at you if you take religion seriously and you
Speaker 2: want to emphasize it as the subject matter that it is,
Speaker 2: is your sort of the topical focus.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: But yeah, I people like that are I don't know,
Speaker 2: I mean, I I I've had to get eventuated in
Speaker 2: tuning out ignorant people because they're all around me and
Speaker 2: they're all really noisy. They're a I don't know, you know,
Speaker 2: I'm not I'm not here to educate morons and I'm not.
Speaker 2: I'm not here to like listen to assholes lip off
Speaker 2: on things they don't know about. So I just the
Speaker 2: minority of people who want to talk about serious stuff,
Speaker 2: and I think like little fucking kids. I mean, you know,
Speaker 2: of the people I want to interact with.
Speaker 1: All right, everybody, go over it to Thomas A substack
Speaker 1: real Thomas seven seven seven dot substack dot com and
Speaker 1: check out his website Thomas seven seven seven dot com.
Speaker 1: The t is a seven and you can hook up
Speaker 1: with him uh from there. Thank you, Thomas, I appreciate it.
Speaker 2: Thank you man,