Speaker 1: Welcome back to Babylon.
Speaker 2: We are the podcast that is watching and breaking down
Speaker 2: episodes of Babylon five. We just watched Come to the Inquisitor,
Speaker 2: season two, episode twenty one.
Speaker 1: I believe.
Speaker 2: I am Jenny. I'm a massive fan of the show
Speaker 2: and I've watched it through many times.
Speaker 3: Unacceptable are you?
Speaker 1: I am the Bermudian? Unacceptable. I don't have the magicals you.
Speaker 3: Get do anything to be in hindsight? It is really
Speaker 3: funny that I have. I have interjected in a third
Speaker 3: of our episodes. Who are we in hindsight? Anyway?
Speaker 4: True?
Speaker 5: Yes, I'll let you interject that again right now.
Speaker 3: Who are you?
Speaker 5: I'm Jed accept screenwriter, showrunner. Watched the show a long
Speaker 5: time ago, missed this episode. New was out there because
Speaker 5: people talk about it, but I didn't never see it
Speaker 5: in person until today.
Speaker 3: I am Achelle. If I fall another, We'll take my place.
Speaker 3: I've got I'm an actor her first set watcher bel five.
Speaker 3: I love this show so much.
Speaker 6: I'm Ali. I'm a screenwriter and an actor.
Speaker 7: Not for fame where no one can see.
Speaker 4: That's right.
Speaker 7: Yeah, and this is my first time watching Babylon five.
Speaker 7: What a what an episode.
Speaker 3: The Babylon podcast was our last best hope for a
Speaker 3: deep dive, A self contained discussion for hosts, strong located
Speaker 3: in the neutral territory of the Zokolow, a place of
Speaker 3: commentary and analysis for two veterans and two newcomers, a
Speaker 3: shining beacon of fandom, all alone in the streaming void.
Speaker 3: It was the dawn of the streaming age, the year
Speaker 3: the great theories came upon us all this is the
Speaker 3: story of Babylon. The year is twenty twenty six. The
Speaker 3: place wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 2: As I guess noted while the episode is happening, but
Speaker 2: just for the podcast listeners. This was written by j
Speaker 2: MS and directed by Mike Vehar, who was directed several
Speaker 2: episodes previously.
Speaker 6: So this man was into spirituality.
Speaker 3: This man in psychology background, doesn't he does?
Speaker 1: Okay?
Speaker 7: Yes, that was great because I was like, this is
Speaker 7: all psychology, yeah and spirit Yeah, okay, that makes sense.
Speaker 7: Because I was like, Jesus was great.
Speaker 3: This was so good. This was so freaking good. I
Speaker 3: mentioned go ahead, Okay.
Speaker 2: I was just at the very end you were like,
Speaker 2: don't call it out. Don't call it because he does
Speaker 2: make it very explicit at the end. It is Jack
Speaker 2: the Ripper in the Jama Speaks part. It's like, he says,
Speaker 2: flat out. Some people were really mad at me for
Speaker 2: making it really explicit, and some people were like, why
Speaker 2: didn't you tell us who that dude was?
Speaker 6: That's what I said. I was like.
Speaker 7: I was like, you have to thread the middle ground
Speaker 7: every time, because because some people will get it right away, right,
Speaker 7: and some people are going to still be like.
Speaker 6: Who they'd never explained to Jack?
Speaker 3: What is the East End?
Speaker 6: Where is London?
Speaker 1: Okay? The east End? West End? Did you get to
Speaker 1: that part in the notes?
Speaker 2: Hold on, I gotta find it because I don't remember
Speaker 2: which one it is one of them?
Speaker 1: If people who love Jack the Ripper know which one
Speaker 1: it is.
Speaker 7: Okay, when we say love Jack the Ripper, I mean
Speaker 7: or the Laura yea fascinated by the.
Speaker 6: Laura, Yes he calls.
Speaker 5: He says, Okay, here's one clue for any would be
Speaker 5: ripperologists out there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he uses that term a lot. But I was
Speaker 2: trying to pay attention to it and I couldn't figure
Speaker 2: it out. He Bruce says one, and then the actual
Speaker 2: audio says another because they fixed it.
Speaker 5: In Oh, that's really funny, right right, right, right.
Speaker 1: They sucked it up, but the first time it aired
Speaker 1: they hadn't fixed it.
Speaker 3: So they said west end. Because said, yeah, so here's what.
Speaker 4: So here's what.
Speaker 5: Here's the JMS said, yes, I know, it's the east end,
Speaker 5: not the west end. I looked write at my notes
Speaker 5: when I was writing the script and they said east
Speaker 5: and I typed west and nobody noticed until it went out.
Speaker 5: I could have replaced it with a looped line prior
Speaker 5: to the first airing here, as this was found during
Speaker 5: the UK airings, but looping never improves, only diminishes of performance.
Speaker 5: And he's on camera and the words wouldn't match his mouth.
Speaker 5: So I decided to let it go out this way
Speaker 5: once for performance, and we'll correct this aspect with a
Speaker 5: loop in later airings, even though that will somewhat lessen
Speaker 5: the performance aspect.
Speaker 2: Yes, and he says it, And there's another part where
Speaker 2: he talks about it. So he says basically all that's so,
Speaker 2: I won't repeat it, But he says, so I can
Speaker 2: hent myself with the notion that it's west of Babylon five.
Speaker 1: Now, if you excuse me, I'm going to go shoot myself.
Speaker 3: That's pretty fun, you know. He made one mistake.
Speaker 4: Oh god, it's right.
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's hard. It's hard. Writing is hard, you know,
Speaker 6: triple check stuff.
Speaker 3: And still I mentioned in the episode unless there's.
Speaker 1: Something else, No, No, that's it.
Speaker 3: He starts in with who are you? Who are you?
Speaker 3: Who are you? And after the third time, I said
Speaker 3: something to the effect of this is giving what do
Speaker 3: you want? Vibes?
Speaker 1: What you want?
Speaker 3: Yeah, and Jenny, you you grinned really hard when I
Speaker 3: said that. I think you did, or maybe you maybe
Speaker 3: you didn't, and maybe your avatar glitched out, But I
Speaker 3: I bring that up because it they're both very existential questions.
Speaker 3: They're both very you know, if we're looking at psychology,
Speaker 3: which we are now, there are questions that kind of
Speaker 3: hit close to the court are we But it's funny because.
Speaker 2: Existential questions offered by human ambassadors of weird.
Speaker 3: Yes, but they're opposite, kind of very opposite.
Speaker 2: They're directed by Morgan comes in and he's like, hey,
Speaker 2: how you doing.
Speaker 1: I'm happy to see you. What do you want? And
Speaker 1: and Sebastian comes in He's like you, I hate Jack.
Speaker 3: But they're also questions because what do you want is like,
Speaker 3: what do you want? Is this? What is the void?
Speaker 3: That you have within you and what are you trying
Speaker 3: to fill it with? And who are you?
Speaker 6: Is?
Speaker 3: Okay, now look at the void. Yeah, acknowledge that you
Speaker 3: are the void and you can't fill the void.
Speaker 2: I've never thought of this as the ego death episode.
Speaker 2: And like the second you said it, I was like, oh, fuck, yes,
Speaker 2: But what do you want? Is like, tell me what
Speaker 2: your ego wants? Like it's basically an ego question. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and this is the ego death question.
Speaker 3: Consume, consume, consume? How do you how are you trying
Speaker 3: to fill the emptiness? Whatever the emptiness is? What what
Speaker 3: do you think will make the pain go away? Whatever
Speaker 3: the pain is the pain of my heart Totley who
Speaker 3: Ali has been telling me to read forever and ever
Speaker 3: and ever, and I finally started reading it, talks about it,
Speaker 3: started reading that's so good, it's so good. Who could
Speaker 3: have known this? Who could have known this? And then
Speaker 3: I was talking to my therapist about it today, as
Speaker 3: I always mentioned my therapist on this podcast, because I
Speaker 3: have therapy.
Speaker 6: One men seeing therapist.
Speaker 3: And I was talking about it and it was it's funny.
Speaker 3: He was like, yeah, he actually developed his theories a
Speaker 3: lot more after he wrote the book because the book
Speaker 3: talks about don't think at all, but you're reading a
Speaker 3: book and the book is nothing but thoughts. And that's
Speaker 3: a good point.
Speaker 6: Well he does point that out, he.
Speaker 3: Does, and whatever, it's it's a great book. But but
Speaker 3: I want, oh, I bring this up because he talks
Speaker 3: about how when you start trying to be be present
Speaker 3: yourself and not subsume yourself in thought, your mind freaks
Speaker 3: out and rebels against it, because that's that's all it is.
Speaker 3: The views it as an existential Yeah. Yeah, your ego
Speaker 3: views that as an existential threat. And then that's kind
Speaker 3: of where a lot of that need to do stuff
Speaker 3: and to fill stuff and to think and to want
Speaker 3: comes from is because if you are simply present and
Speaker 3: be that part of your psychologistic to a Cartola is
Speaker 3: like I'm gonna die. And that's that's so. I just
Speaker 3: I like to love this show so much because he's like, Okay,
Speaker 3: what have we had the Shadows who are completely aligned
Speaker 3: with that, like give, give, give, take, take, take give, give, give, take,
Speaker 3: take take, feel the void, fill the void, and then
Speaker 3: the Vorlon and by extension, Jack the fucking Ripper, who
Speaker 3: is not I have learned his lesson who is the
Speaker 3: opposite of that pretty much, which is just okay, now,
Speaker 3: be well.
Speaker 5: Because if someone came and said to him eight hundred
Speaker 5: years ago, five hundred years ago, I mean not.
Speaker 4: From us from that show, yeah, from the show.
Speaker 5: If they said, you know fours, I guess who are
Speaker 5: you four hundre years ago, he would say, I'm Jack
Speaker 5: the Ripper.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and chosen by God to give them whatever in
Speaker 2: the show, Like that's what he said he was doing.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, and then here he says that's basically not
Speaker 5: who he is.
Speaker 6: Yeah, you know, he's like, I'm not even Sebastian.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's it's really ah, it's really interesting. Hello, Okay,
Speaker 6: except it's really interesting.
Speaker 7: I like, yeah, it's this whole idea of like, yeah,
Speaker 7: we spend all of this time trying to like define ourselves.
Speaker 7: We define ourselves by our past and our future and
Speaker 7: like not really by our present. We like don't actually
Speaker 7: live our lives being focused on like where we are
Speaker 7: in this moment in time. And then like so we
Speaker 7: actually like miss most of our lives because we're either
Speaker 7: using stories from the past or like having anxieties about
Speaker 7: the future or thinking that the future is going to
Speaker 7: bring us some level of happiness or fulfillment that we
Speaker 7: are working toward, as opposed to actually like experiencing the
Speaker 7: totality of our lives and really like it's once we
Speaker 7: are no body and no thing that we stop because
Speaker 7: the past and the future don't exist technically, I mean,
Speaker 7: like they're not happening now, and like the past is
Speaker 7: not in actually informing the present in any particular way.
Speaker 7: It's like the stories and pain bodies that you introduce
Speaker 7: to it. So it's like and the future will not
Speaker 7: bring you happiness, the happiness, like the full total peace
Speaker 7: and fulfillment that you think it's going to, because there
Speaker 7: will always be problems, Like there will always be things
Speaker 7: or like future things to think about or worry about.
Speaker 7: So it's like the only way that you will ever
Speaker 7: actually know peace is if you experience it now.
Speaker 6: Yeah, and you learn how to experience it.
Speaker 7: Is it now in every moment, even when you are suffering,
Speaker 7: because if you are just using the past future to
Speaker 7: inform what's happening, you're only increasing your own suffering.
Speaker 6: And like that's insane and isn't.
Speaker 5: That in part the definition of enlightenment I think? So
Speaker 5: you know, is the like the recognition of like just
Speaker 5: just being I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna.
Speaker 6: Sell you a budget. It's okay to be wrong.
Speaker 7: That's okay, Lama, and I just worried about about being
Speaker 7: after having read one chapter of a book, you know
Speaker 7: how much I just got it gets so much comment
Speaker 7: that book everyone you don't understand. And the next what
Speaker 7: you read is you read on the Soul. That's the
Speaker 7: next one. Okay, it's so good. No, it's so good.
Speaker 3: And my therapist told me to read. I got to read.
Speaker 6: I learned how like.
Speaker 5: I've also been sick for a week and happen I'm
Speaker 5: totally still in fever dream states.
Speaker 4: So good.
Speaker 7: Yeah, it's it's ant that like nothing matters, so everything matters,
Speaker 7: and that like you aren't you're you're nobody and no thing.
Speaker 7: You are like the universe experiencing life, right, Like you're
Speaker 7: a piece of the universe experiencing life.
Speaker 6: So it's like you actually.
Speaker 7: It's like you're your feel you kind of like are
Speaker 7: observing your own life as if you're in a movie.
Speaker 6: You kind of are like.
Speaker 7: You, you understand this true self exists behind all of that,
Speaker 7: behind the ego, behind the mind, it's like a third
Speaker 7: party observer that you kind of like tap into and
Speaker 7: kind of observe yourself experiencing your own life.
Speaker 3: But you're also extremely connected to it at the same time.
Speaker 7: Yeah, it's not like a compartmentalization thing or like a
Speaker 7: dissociation thing.
Speaker 6: It's like.
Speaker 3: You're not there's nothing between you and experiencing your life. Yes, yes, yes, yeah,
Speaker 3: you're like you're not. You're not constantly thinking about everything
Speaker 3: like this.
Speaker 6: This is just like that time.
Speaker 3: I should say this, I should really probably make sure
Speaker 3: and I got to remember to cross my legs and
Speaker 3: I gotta tune my body. You're not doing any of that.
Speaker 3: You're not worried about what people think about you. You're
Speaker 3: not worried about anything. You're just kind of there. Do
Speaker 3: you kind of just exist because you're going to be
Speaker 3: there anyway. Really lovely, it's good.
Speaker 7: And it's really lovely, and like I'm where it's a
Speaker 7: frequency I can I find and then lose and then
Speaker 7: find in the lose forever. But like it's it's great
Speaker 7: when I have it.
Speaker 6: It's like.
Speaker 7: It's so nice. It's so nice. It's the best because
Speaker 7: you just you realize nothing matters.
Speaker 3: You're just like oh like, but in a good way again,
Speaker 3: like with with with with Sebastian. You can read a
Speaker 3: lot of the stuff he says as dismissive and negative
Speaker 3: and nihilistic and pessimism, like who are you? You know?
Speaker 3: Who do you? Why do you think you matter? You
Speaker 3: just dada dada, You're a nail? All this stuff. You
Speaker 3: can read it as defeatist.
Speaker 6: But all the nails in the house matter.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And it's not like be content with being a nail.
Speaker 3: That's not the thing necessarily is like give up your dreams.
Speaker 3: It's not the point. But the point is hard to
Speaker 3: hard to encapsulate in less than an hour of screen time,
Speaker 3: I guess. But the point is whatever you're doing is important.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 5: And the idea that, like what your thought was the
Speaker 5: pinnacle of importance or the thing the role that people
Speaker 5: would point to and say that was the lynchpin that
Speaker 5: was the important thing could be very different than what
Speaker 5: you're expecting, right, And by being here and being committed
Speaker 5: and being present, you are adding to it in the
Speaker 5: way that you need to be adding to it.
Speaker 7: It's like, if you think about it, right, like most people,
Speaker 7: most people, and this is not to make people sad,
Speaker 7: but most people after a few generations, Like I don't
Speaker 7: know my great grandparents' name. I do, I know, I
Speaker 7: know their names, but I don't know their parents' names
Speaker 7: off the top of my head. Right, But I am
Speaker 7: the totality of all of their choices, right like each
Speaker 7: of us is the the conglomeration of all of the
Speaker 7: choices of every single person in our lineage that came
Speaker 7: before us. Right, So it's like every person's choices do matter,
Speaker 7: because it's like everyone matters.
Speaker 3: Every Yeah, everything that came before informs what is happening now,
Speaker 3: and everything that's happening now informs what's happening. Like we
Speaker 3: talked about this on Wheel Takes four Youth three years ago,
Speaker 3: two three years ago, where we were talking about like
Speaker 3: you're not gonna don't be remembered, blah blah blah, and
Speaker 3: I started ranting about how much I hate business school
Speaker 3: and because they, you know, and I pointed over there,
Speaker 3: I said, I don't know who came there was a
Speaker 3: coffee machine over there. I said, I don't know who
Speaker 3: invented coffee filters. I use them every day. They matter
Speaker 3: to me. I don't know who designed this particular coffee filter.
Speaker 3: They may or may not be alive anymore. I use
Speaker 3: it every day. It matters to me, you know, like
Speaker 3: I don't know who built my house. It's important to me, Like, yeah,
Speaker 3: there are jokes that people probably came up with three
Speaker 3: hundred years ago that have filtered into today's parlance and
Speaker 3: everybody uses them as people who invented words and you
Speaker 3: never knew about it. And that's I started. Boss.
Speaker 5: Sorry, very important, I said, I started, Boss started. That's
Speaker 5: the Boss before anybody anyway.
Speaker 3: I believe, I believe everything matters.
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's cool.
Speaker 3: I'm sorry we've been we got excited about that. Yeah,
Speaker 3: I know.
Speaker 2: To bring it back to like the Lane of Babylon five,
Speaker 2: we've got these two questions, Uh, what do you want?
Speaker 1: And who are you?
Speaker 2: And I'm just gonna point somebody out that like was
Speaker 2: maybe giddy the first time we went through this.
Speaker 1: Because it's like, oh, yeah, cool.
Speaker 2: I don't know if you remember when Jeff was in
Speaker 2: the Triangle place in the Mimbari ship getting tortured.
Speaker 3: Ask who are you?
Speaker 1: What? He was yelling at them because he was like,
Speaker 1: who are you?
Speaker 4: What do you want?
Speaker 2: Because he didn't know why he was being tortured and
Speaker 2: it was literally echoing in the room, like you guys
Speaker 2: started dancing to it because it was like, who are you?
Speaker 1: What do you want? Who are you?
Speaker 2: What do you want?
Speaker 1: This was going over.
Speaker 3: Should watched that again? See what else? He asked?
Speaker 8: Yeah, cool, that's where am I?
Speaker 1: I don't know?
Speaker 4: Who are you?
Speaker 6: What do you want? Yeah? I think? I mean how
Speaker 6: those are the two kinds of questions.
Speaker 2: Again in the notes, one of the things that jamis
Speaker 2: people must have asked about it multiple times because he
Speaker 2: answers it several times, So I'm going to get lost
Speaker 2: and trying to find it. But he talks about how
Speaker 2: who are you is an important question to answer before
Speaker 2: you answer the question.
Speaker 3: What do you want?
Speaker 2: Because if you answer what do you want? First, it's
Speaker 2: going to be Okay, what the fuck?
Speaker 4: HOLI?
Speaker 3: How you doing?
Speaker 6: That was just really struck me as very true in
Speaker 6: that moment. I'm very sorry I was in a voluntary
Speaker 6: that was so true. That was insane? How true that
Speaker 6: hit for me? No, not at all.
Speaker 7: Definitely have not been experiencing a profound spiritual awakening this
Speaker 7: entire year. Definitely have not had my entire nervous system
Speaker 7: burned to the ground and re animate.
Speaker 6: It's great, it was deeply painful.
Speaker 3: Anyways, you know he's right about that. You do want
Speaker 3: to know who you are before you ask what.
Speaker 7: Yeah, because if you are not fully integrated and fully
Speaker 7: aware of yourself, you have the power to project all
Speaker 7: kinds of bullshit onto other people that you don't mean
Speaker 7: to make. You can make your and other people's lives
Speaker 7: so much worse. Like, much of the problems that exist
Speaker 7: today are from people who don't under fully encapsulate self
Speaker 7: awareness and awareness of others.
Speaker 3: Just shadow projecting all over the fla walking.
Speaker 7: Battle projecting all over the fucking place, all over everyone.
Speaker 7: It's very rude to everyone else who's just trying to live.
Speaker 7: We do not ask to be covered in their shadow
Speaker 7: projection bullshit, Like, how many times have you received this
Speaker 7: energy from someone where you're like, I didn't. That is
Speaker 7: not about me, and I don't know where that's coming from.
Speaker 7: But that is not about me. That is not accurate.
Speaker 7: That is not an accurate story. And it's like, yeah,
Speaker 7: that's because that person has a part of themselves that
Speaker 7: they are telling stories about that you have just randomly
Speaker 7: become a player in like, and that's why bullshit happens.
Speaker 3: Every negative YouTube comment. Just shit.
Speaker 7: If you have left negative YouTube comment that shadow projection,
Speaker 7: fix yourself.
Speaker 2: Okay, there's a show that I really like called A
Speaker 2: Crazy Ex Girlfriend, and there's just this one random song.
Speaker 2: I can't remember what season, but it's just this girl singing.
Speaker 2: Everybody's like projecting stuff onto her and she sings a song.
Speaker 2: I feel like, this isn't about me. It's not like
Speaker 2: a Bastinva song. It's so great it's not.
Speaker 7: And the minute that you realize that, the more at
Speaker 7: piece you feel. I mean, unless if you actually did
Speaker 7: fuck up some which as possible, which is which you
Speaker 7: also have to do your own inner work to find
Speaker 7: out how you might be unintentionally fucking with other people.
Speaker 7: That's the thing is, it's not just about like going, oh, well,
Speaker 7: most stuff's not about me.
Speaker 6: It's like it also very much could be.
Speaker 7: You must investigate yourself and then understand how like that
Speaker 7: also might be other people rejecting onto you.
Speaker 6: It can be both, and it can be both at
Speaker 6: the same time.
Speaker 7: That's the other thing that you have to understand is
Speaker 7: like we're all bumping into each other's wounds all the
Speaker 7: time by accident. If you are unaware of yourself, unaware
Speaker 7: of the world, unaware of other people suffering, you can
Speaker 7: cause suffering in your wake all over the fucking place.
Speaker 3: Which is why Cash was like, we should make sure
Speaker 3: that this lady's on the level and she's not going
Speaker 3: in there with all of her ego. And I don't
Speaker 3: mean ego in a negative sense. I mean literally identity
Speaker 3: and self importance and gonna just go in there and
Speaker 3: blast her shit all over the map. She's gotta go
Speaker 3: in there and be like it and about me. That
Speaker 3: was the point from the beginning.
Speaker 6: It didn't her it is, which I didn't.
Speaker 3: Where he came from, by the way, because in season
Speaker 3: one she was like, I'm going to do this transformation
Speaker 3: and I'm going to put myself through these things and
Speaker 3: I'm there, I'm going to stay on Babylon five and me, me, me,
Speaker 3: me me, And that's fine. She was right, because but
Speaker 3: she was doing these things from a self sacrificing perspective.
Speaker 3: But I also understand why he would be kind of like, hmmm,
Speaker 3: do you want to be in the history books? Is
Speaker 3: that why we're doing this? Is that?
Speaker 7: And it's like, don't we all a little bit want
Speaker 7: to be important? Of course, of course we want to
Speaker 7: be important. Of course we want to matter to people.
Speaker 7: Of course. Of course, of course I have thought extensively.
Speaker 7: I've spent hours of my life wondering if I matter
Speaker 7: to people.
Speaker 6: I've spent so much.
Speaker 7: Time wanting to matter, wondering if I matter to certain people,
Speaker 7: getting all caught up in my bullshit about whether or
Speaker 7: not somebody gives a shit about me, Like, and you
Speaker 7: know what, it wasn't particular, it's not particularly productive, it's
Speaker 7: not particularly helpful.
Speaker 6: It's like that is something I have zero control.
Speaker 7: Over, zero, Like yeah, and it's and it's not the
Speaker 7: reason to do anything, Like you don't.
Speaker 6: This is the thing about relationships.
Speaker 7: You don't do something for someone in the hopes that
Speaker 7: then you will matter to them. That's like, oh weird,
Speaker 7: let's say, but you do at the same time, like
Speaker 7: like that's a natural impulse to like want to connect
Speaker 7: with someone, want them to like you, so you like
Speaker 7: do a bunch of self sacrificing bullshit.
Speaker 6: What are you doing? Why are you looking at? Okay?
Speaker 6: Is this is this hitting something for you?
Speaker 3: No, I'm thinking about your car.
Speaker 1: Okay, Okay, I did want to talk about your car anyway, I.
Speaker 6: Was, I was, I have zero ego about this, but just.
Speaker 5: But I do want to say one more thing about
Speaker 5: de Lenne, because I get I get what you're saying
Speaker 5: about I'm glad, like I'm glad Cosh was checking in
Speaker 5: and making sure this isn't just about glory in your
Speaker 5: own way. And I suppose on one level, yeah, I
Speaker 5: mean like I get that. But Delenne has consistently not
Speaker 5: just spoken of, but demonstrated she's from the religious cast
Speaker 5: whose entire identity is about service to others and.
Speaker 4: About the greater.
Speaker 5: Good, and went through this transformation and has been getting
Speaker 5: herself not well received for such lost you know, is
Speaker 5: considered an outcast among our own people, doesn't fit in
Speaker 5: with the other people.
Speaker 4: Like so, I'm just.
Speaker 5: When you were like, you know, like we want to
Speaker 5: make sure you don't have any ego, and I'm like,
Speaker 5: what the fuck ego? Do you have cash that you
Speaker 5: can't see that everything Delenne has done to this point
Speaker 5: but has been selfless.
Speaker 3: Yes, but yes, but it's been selfless and not by
Speaker 3: any fault of her own in a public sphere, very
Speaker 3: publicly in.
Speaker 5: A public sphere, and and doing the thing that she
Speaker 5: we know she values highest and so like that's the
Speaker 5: thing too.
Speaker 3: It's true clearly you know she was being selfless and
Speaker 3: I had no real concern that she wasn't. But I
Speaker 3: also you know, like there are people who are like
Speaker 3: publicly very very giving and very very and then they
Speaker 3: go home and they go to their family and they're
Speaker 3: like I saved so and so today.
Speaker 6: You know, and like, are you talking about anybody in particular?
Speaker 3: No, I'm not getting into that. But it's not me.
Speaker 3: It's absolutely not.
Speaker 6: I know it is.
Speaker 3: I can guarantee you they're not watching. Oh we know
Speaker 3: they're not. And so uh, people, there are people who
Speaker 3: it doesn't diminish the good that they do, no, still
Speaker 3: doing good, but just you know, there's there's the question,
Speaker 3: doesn't make them bad people?
Speaker 1: Well, there's people looking for aljaml.
Speaker 7: It's from It's that their ego, Yes, it's yeah, it's
Speaker 7: that their ego is tied up in for being perceived
Speaker 7: as good. And like that's not that doesn't the gate
Speaker 7: the good, but it is still ego. Like ego doesn't
Speaker 7: have to look bad.
Speaker 6: That's the thing.
Speaker 7: It's not necessarily an inherently bad thing. It's just that
Speaker 7: if you are not aware of your ego, right, if
Speaker 7: you are not bringing your awareness. The death comes from
Speaker 7: awareness of the ego and like what your bullshit is,
Speaker 7: and it's like and then you go like, oh, that's
Speaker 7: not really who I am, and you can but it
Speaker 7: also is, so you can like bring awareness to it
Speaker 7: and allow it to kind of fall away and then
Speaker 7: like that feels awful.
Speaker 3: It feels awful with the Jakar. Before I forget the
Speaker 3: your car, the jak is telling to me that this
Speaker 3: episode was juxtaposed against an episode where Jakar insisted that
Speaker 3: he remained in control of the resistance. Yeah, because I
Speaker 3: also think he is right. He is the best person
Speaker 3: for that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And that and the Bruce wants him in that PO.
Speaker 3: Wants him there too.
Speaker 1: I don't want a new person.
Speaker 2: I am just realized I'm cognizant of the time and
Speaker 2: I'm a little because I know, Gus, you might.
Speaker 3: I did just check out what they landed. My dad
Speaker 3: just texted me we're on the ground.
Speaker 1: I saw that.
Speaker 2: That was actually why I thought, because I saw you
Speaker 2: text on your phone. So before you go, I do
Speaker 2: want to discuss your theories.
Speaker 3: Yes, we can do that. This was such a good,
Speaker 3: goddamn episode. I could talk about this literally all night.
Speaker 1: I know, I want to get to these before you go,
Speaker 1: So you had to.
Speaker 2: You had two theories that you had posted in our chat.
Speaker 1: One of them was Delenne secret telepath.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that was before we learned that Evanava was a
Speaker 3: secret telepath. I don't know how many secret telepaths we're
Speaker 3: going to have. But when Tully I looked at Mordan,
Speaker 3: I almost said, when Tully looked at Mordan, everything got
Speaker 3: real dark in the face zone. And Elen looked at Mordon,
Speaker 3: everything got real dark in the face zone. Delenn is
Speaker 3: also repeatedly spoken highly about how Minbari treat their telepaths,
Speaker 3: and she is also quite well appreciated and venerated among
Speaker 3: the Minbari. Possible she might have some telepathic ability. However,
Speaker 3: we have never heard any indication from Csycor or from
Speaker 3: Talia or from I guess Ivanav even that she would
Speaker 3: have that. So I haven't no other evidence other than
Speaker 3: what was going on with Morden.
Speaker 1: Okay, and then your other theory.
Speaker 3: Do you remember Cauto is an angel?
Speaker 1: Yell?
Speaker 3: Okay, Well, because it's such a weird, why do you
Speaker 3: never take off your suit? Every who would recognize you everyone,
Speaker 3: And so I said, okay, well, maybe Vorlon's are like
Speaker 3: the prototypical stereotypical image of angels with all.
Speaker 6: The eyes and stuff.
Speaker 3: The wings accurate, one of the wings, because they're they're
Speaker 3: the shoulder pads look like wings from behind, they do.
Speaker 3: And I was like, well, maybe a lot of different
Speaker 3: cultures have similar imagery surrounding celestial beings or divine beings
Speaker 3: and it's angels.
Speaker 6: Because they said they've been everywhere.
Speaker 3: Yes, because that's what Worlons look like. Is the Vorlons
Speaker 3: look like prototypical angels.
Speaker 2: And they said that this episode. You're right, they said
Speaker 2: that this episode.
Speaker 3: And so the reason why he can't take off his
Speaker 3: suit is because he'd just be a big fucking winged
Speaker 3: dude walking around and everybody like, that's an angel, and
Speaker 3: everybody would agree that was an angel.
Speaker 6: Well, also, also, did you say anything else?
Speaker 7: If I remember correctly, Like, isn't it one of those
Speaker 7: things where well, there's certain cultures where like the angels,
Speaker 7: if you see them, it's like to like it's too divine, And.
Speaker 3: I mean that's literally.
Speaker 1: Angel shows up. The very first thing is they say is.
Speaker 7: Like settled out too much.
Speaker 4: Yeah, quaking quaking.
Speaker 6: Also, oh one more thing, Okay, oh this is like
Speaker 6: this is just like a quake thing. It's like.
Speaker 7: Totally about how like when like somebody is bothering you
Speaker 7: or somebody like there's it's just conflict or whatever.
Speaker 6: You look at that person because he's like he's.
Speaker 3: Like, this sounds grim, but it's not.
Speaker 7: He's like simultaneously, he's like, you recognize the divinity in
Speaker 7: each person. Like he's like, you are a piece of
Speaker 7: the divine, Like even the person that cut you off
Speaker 7: in traffic, you're a piece of the divine, and also
Speaker 7: recognize the humanity in them, the fact that we're all
Speaker 7: going to die, and you just go like yeah, And weirdly,
Speaker 7: I cannot tell you how much piece it gives me.
Speaker 7: Every time I like someone's annoying me in some way,
Speaker 7: I just go, you, I recognize the divinity in you
Speaker 7: and also the fact that we're all going to die.
Speaker 6: So none of this really.
Speaker 3: Matters, you know what we just started saying. Whenever somebody's
Speaker 3: driving like an asshole and like cutting up, it makes.
Speaker 6: Me feel better every time.
Speaker 3: We go maybe they just really got a pool.
Speaker 6: Just really out to take a shit. It's just you
Speaker 6: know is an emergency.
Speaker 1: I don't drive anymore because I live in South Korea.
Speaker 2: But one of the things I used to do and
Speaker 2: I would get because I get, I get really angry
Speaker 2: when I'm driving if people do rude things is I
Speaker 2: would tell myself a story about them. Yeah, be like,
Speaker 2: hey day, you had to do a report today and
Speaker 2: their boss got really mad at them, and then they young.
Speaker 1: I just tell myself a long It makes you so much.
Speaker 5: They have to take a ship, say they're on their
Speaker 5: way to deliver a baby, but I like gotta poop no.
Speaker 6: Yeah, because I used to say deliver baby.
Speaker 3: That's a guy.
Speaker 6: Yeah. Now the ship one's even funnier, Like she just cracks.
Speaker 6: You can't help it. You're like, that's funny.
Speaker 4: I would come up.
Speaker 1: I would come up with elaborate narratives about each of them.
Speaker 3: Well, let's better story for everyone.
Speaker 1: It would occupy my mind while I was getting angry.
Speaker 3: Oh Ver, before we leave vera talk.
Speaker 6: About we're gonna do something with forgiveness.
Speaker 3: Y'all gonna keep talking before I leave.
Speaker 7: We're gonna do something with forgiveness. I'm gonna tell you
Speaker 7: that right now. We're not gonna leave it there. The
Speaker 7: power of forgiveness is important.
Speaker 6: It's important.
Speaker 2: His his reflex and after running away was I'm sorry.
Speaker 2: Do you remember how hard it was for Londo to
Speaker 2: say I'm sorry to the what's his face? The magic guy?
Speaker 2: The technomage?
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, and London and Londo's.
Speaker 2: Apology to apology to the Technomage was like it was.
Speaker 2: It was basically a modern apology and well, if you're
Speaker 2: offended by anything that I did, I am sorry for
Speaker 2: the feelings that you are feeling.
Speaker 1: And but like it was not where vere was just
Speaker 1: like straight up I'm sorry. Sorry.
Speaker 7: I really struggle with people who can't apologize.
Speaker 6: I really struggle with that. Like I just.
Speaker 7: I recognize that people are often taught not to apologize,
Speaker 7: and that is a journey that they are on, but
Speaker 7: I feel that there is very little that cannot be
Speaker 7: resolved with a genuine apology.
Speaker 3: Londo also, though, is really tied up an ego and
Speaker 3: identity and how people receive him in his role in society,
Speaker 3: and fear is not.
Speaker 5: Yeah, like what strength means, and you know how strength
Speaker 5: is perceived.
Speaker 3: And and he views himself as a servant to the
Speaker 3: centaury to an extent, but he also like, I mean
Speaker 3: the technic was holding the technod He's like, I follow,
Speaker 3: he wants people to want people to kind of worship him.
Speaker 3: He wants people to venerate him. He wants to have
Speaker 3: renown and glory. He wants all of these things that
Speaker 3: are indefinable. And the same thing as Jakar was talking
Speaker 3: to yeah, yeah, and Jaikar talking to people on the
Speaker 3: on the zocal where he's like, you think they're not
Speaker 3: gonna come for you next, the same thing. It's his
Speaker 3: undefinable need for glorious, undefinable need for for for veneration
Speaker 3: or what whatever.
Speaker 2: Ver isn't like.
Speaker 3: That, I mean Vera's Vere has been putting up a
Speaker 3: front to Londo on and off for a long time
Speaker 3: from from the Coming of Shadows, I think. And yeah,
Speaker 3: I made a comment in the episode, I said, this
Speaker 3: apology is for Vere to an extent, but it's also
Speaker 3: but it's also like, I.
Speaker 1: Mean, what else is in a situation like what else
Speaker 1: do you do?
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's literally I have to acknowledge, like and in
Speaker 2: the words i'm sorry, is an acknowledgment we I am wrong.
Speaker 6: That you suffered? Yeah, I mean.
Speaker 7: Yeah, what I like about this moment too, especially in
Speaker 7: considering like I don't mean, we're a part of a
Speaker 7: country where I personally don't endorse most of what's happening
Speaker 7: in our country right now. Personally, I mean, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 7: I'm not American, so I will just yeah, uh yeah.
Speaker 7: And there are other countries that are doing things that
Speaker 7: I'm sure have civilians in them that don't endorse what's happening.
Speaker 7: And it's like, yeah, even like big groups of people
Speaker 7: are not a monolith there. I like that there's humanity
Speaker 7: in like even the oppressors, because I feel like there's
Speaker 7: often this thing where it's like all the oppressors are
Speaker 7: bad and all of the victims are good, and it's like, yeah,
Speaker 7: nothing is a monolith, right, Nothing is a monolith. Like
Speaker 7: there can be people who are part of an oppressive
Speaker 7: class that look to correct things or feel bad about
Speaker 7: it or genuinely are like not on on board.
Speaker 6: That's possible. It's harder, but it's possible.
Speaker 7: Like, and I like that Veer exists because it's like,
Speaker 7: let's let's bring some nuance to ship, like that the
Speaker 7: centauri are not all monsters is an important thing, and
Speaker 7: even the ones who are acting monstrously are kind of
Speaker 7: questioning their decision making.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but they're.
Speaker 7: Like it's like, are you when are you going to
Speaker 7: turn back from this? Like at what point? At what
Speaker 7: point is the cost so high you have to keep going?
Speaker 3: Refa is a piece of ship though. Fuck that guy.
Speaker 7: We can have, We can have and then have like
Speaker 7: because I feel like oftentimes they're all refunded.
Speaker 3: Refu Londo, that guy from a couple episodes ago, veer
Speaker 3: exactly right now.
Speaker 4: The Emperor the Emperor here.
Speaker 7: Yeah, es so like, yeah, I just feel like it's
Speaker 7: nice to see some nuance to that situation. It's nice
Speaker 7: to see like yeah, because I just feel like a
Speaker 7: lot of the time, you know, it's it's like, this
Speaker 7: is the monster group monsters.
Speaker 6: All of them, including the children, are all monsters.
Speaker 7: Yeah, drags are all evil, And I'm like, I have
Speaker 7: never once encountered a group of people where everyone is
Speaker 7: just evil. Like it just doesn't it doesn't exist.
Speaker 3: I have to leave. Do you want to see anything
Speaker 3: else you want from me? Right before we leave?
Speaker 2: I'll tell you one thing just before you leave us,
Speaker 2: because it's interesting.
Speaker 1: Uh, And we could keep talking after this.
Speaker 2: They in England, they cut the scene where Jakar cuts
Speaker 2: his hand, so people were really confused if it's just
Speaker 2: for violence, they they censored it. They snipped the shot
Speaker 2: and slicing his hand. This is un quoting JMS. You're kidding.
Speaker 2: I find that quite astonishing. It was done very districtly, discreetly.
Speaker 1: I'm dumbfounded. No wonder there was confusion about that scene.
Speaker 3: That's pretty funny. That's kind of an important scene and
Speaker 3: incredibly moving and Andres consulas should win a million awards
Speaker 3: every episode show.
Speaker 2: What they would have shown in England was just him
Speaker 2: suddenly holding his hand up with blood dripping.
Speaker 5: So yeah, and they're like, did you just strangle somebody?
Speaker 3: That's silly anyway.
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, this is a really good episode.
Speaker 3: I really like my buddy.
Speaker 6: I just yeah, what an interesting Yeah, I just uh yeah.
Speaker 2: I really liked the choices that they made in that
Speaker 2: elevator scene to sit on it for so long, like, yeah,
Speaker 2: let us see Year's initial because it shows the to me,
Speaker 2: his initial fear and running away from Jakar made his
Speaker 2: eventual standing and looking in the eye while he apologized
Speaker 2: feel so much more if he had just immediately turned
Speaker 2: and been like I'm sorry. It wouldn't have felt as much.
Speaker 2: But you saw him steel himself.
Speaker 5: Because I mean I was, I was enjoying him looking
Speaker 5: out the non windows. I thought that was really quite fun.
Speaker 5: But yeah, like what do you do? Where do you go?
Speaker 5: What do you look at? How do you not engage?
Speaker 9: Well?
Speaker 7: Because apologizing, apologizing when you know you have something to
Speaker 7: apologize to or to is a deeply vulnerable act.
Speaker 6: I will not pretend like it's not.
Speaker 7: It's a deeply vulnerable act because it opens you up
Speaker 7: to all kinds of reactions right, like at the same time,
Speaker 7: definitely a necessary thing to do, yes, and it h
Speaker 7: you like, yeah, it's it's everything. It's everything, the ability
Speaker 7: to apologize, especially especially when you've done something like or
Speaker 7: when you're a part of something that is actively so harmful.
Speaker 6: Like, I know it's uncomfortable.
Speaker 7: And like it's scary because you don't know how people
Speaker 7: are going to receive it, But it's so much better
Speaker 7: than not.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm gonna try and say this without talking about
Speaker 2: Wheel time so people don't get upset. But there was
Speaker 2: I was having a conversation with someone about character in
Speaker 2: the Wheel of Time that I at a certain point
Speaker 2: I am no longer I still am rooting for her,
Speaker 2: but I'm not on her side anymore. And it's just
Speaker 2: because I want her to say I'm sorry. That's the
Speaker 2: I just want her to say I'm sorry because she
Speaker 2: hurt people. And a friend of mine response was why
Speaker 2: you need we need less women apologizing? It was like, why,
Speaker 2: first of all, what a typically? What we need is
Speaker 2: more men apology. Apologizing is not a sign of weakness.
Speaker 6: No, no sign of strength strength. It's that's what this.
Speaker 2: Scene showed to me. It's a sign of the big
Speaker 2: technical energy that be your hands.
Speaker 7: What makes me insane is that we have equated things
Speaker 7: that are strong with weakness in a way that makes
Speaker 7: me the ability to feel strength always, the kind heartedness
Speaker 7: strength always, like imagine going The kindest people I know
Speaker 7: are the people who have gone through the most ship.
Speaker 7: They're always the kindest fucking people I've ever met in
Speaker 7: my life.
Speaker 6: Because why do you want to make your life worse?
Speaker 9: Yeah?
Speaker 6: Duh?
Speaker 5: The apologizing thing is interesting, So we but but it
Speaker 5: is interesting. So we initially on little Ellen and I'm
Speaker 5: wearing my Ellen shirt today.
Speaker 4: We you know, we we we did. We had sort
Speaker 4: of a.
Speaker 5: My writing team and I my writing team came to
Speaker 5: me because Okay, I am a classic I'm an over apologizer.
Speaker 5: And then I've been called on it some time. Yeah,
Speaker 5: and you're Canadian, so and I might as well be Canadian.
Speaker 5: I'd like grew up right across the Canadian border, so like,
Speaker 5: you know, and I'm an overapologizer by far, and so
Speaker 5: I and I got called out at it. I remember
Speaker 5: when I went to Denmark when I was fourteen and
Speaker 5: I was living with my Danish family, and I my
Speaker 5: Danish mom, I kept saying like, oh, I'm sorry, like
Speaker 5: for everything. I mean, I mean okay, and I just
Speaker 5: spent a week being sick and apologizing for being sick.
Speaker 5: And David was like, if you say sorry one more time,
Speaker 5: you're gonna have.
Speaker 4: Something to be sorry for our lady.
Speaker 5: You know, he never actually say that, but you know,
Speaker 5: so I'm a classic overapologizer and I apologize and too much.
Speaker 5: So my Danish mom after I said it like five
Speaker 5: times in a row, like oh, I'm sorry, like I
Speaker 5: bumped into the wall and said I'm sorry, like I
Speaker 5: don't know, it was just stupid, and she was like Jennifer,
Speaker 5: and I was using it in Danish. I was saying
Speaker 5: in Danish school, and she was like, stop step stop.
Speaker 5: That is not how we use that word here. It
Speaker 5: means nothing if you say it constantly. And it was
Speaker 5: this really wonderful like wake up call for me of like, oh,
Speaker 5: apologizing to say like, oh, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry,
Speaker 5: I'm sorry, but everything is like makes it meaningless. And
Speaker 5: she was like, say you're sorry when you fucking do
Speaker 5: something wrong. She didn't say fucking say you're sorry when
Speaker 5: you do something wrong. Say you're sorry when you hurt
Speaker 5: somebody's feelings. Say you're sorry when you like, when you
Speaker 5: break something, even if it's an accident. Sure, say you're sorry.
Speaker 5: Don't say you're sorry for things that aren't important, because
Speaker 5: it diminishes what it means it has value, which I
Speaker 5: thought was such a great lesson. I'm still an overapologizer,
Speaker 5: but I'm much better than I was at fourteen.
Speaker 6: I must say with that, I'm business say thank you.
Speaker 4: Ud and so on. Little Ellen.
Speaker 5: You know, me still being an overapologizer and me being
Speaker 5: a woman's showrunner and one of the first womens showrunners
Speaker 5: at Warner Brothers Animation, found myself sometimes apologizing when I
Speaker 5: probably shouldn't have, and my two young women writers on
Speaker 5: my on my writing team writing staff, who are very
Speaker 5: good friends of mine, were just like Jennifer stopp fucking apologizing.
Speaker 5: They did say, fucking is it stop apologizing? You are
Speaker 5: not allowed to say say you're sorry, like because I
Speaker 5: was saying it for things again that were just sort
Speaker 5: of like either not my fault or not in my control.
Speaker 5: And and they were like, you shouldn't. You don't need
Speaker 5: to apologize for that, or if I would ask them
Speaker 5: to do something, they're just like why he was apologizing,
Speaker 5: Like that's our job. And so that like it became
Speaker 5: a balance. And then we had we had a show
Speaker 5: with three kids, two girls and a boy. This is
Speaker 5: I'm getting to a point and they were like, how
Speaker 5: about we have a rule where because you know, and
Speaker 5: I would write sorry into a script, and they were like,
Speaker 5: she doesn't need to say sorry for that. She didn't
Speaker 5: do anything wrong, Like that's not something to apologize for,
Speaker 5: she didn't do anything wrong, Like, so let's let's make
Speaker 5: a rule that not like none of the girls on
Speaker 5: the show are like saying sorry, you know. Like so
Speaker 5: it was kind of in the beginning of the show
Speaker 5: kind of a rule of like making sure, we weren't
Speaker 5: writing that into scripts. And then a little bit later
Speaker 5: I was like, you know, like, sorry, there's a loud
Speaker 5: coughing coming from the.
Speaker 6: Other don't say sorry.
Speaker 5: Oh my god, I did didn't I I literally I
Speaker 5: just did it.
Speaker 4: Okay.
Speaker 5: So a little bit later into the season, we were like,
Speaker 5: we need a show that's about an apology, that's about
Speaker 5: how to apologize, And so we wrote a whole show
Speaker 5: that was about like a little Ellen taking like potshots
Speaker 5: at her friends, like sort of for the fun to
Speaker 5: like get a laugh because she was practicing out of
Speaker 5: comedy skills, but she was doing it really badly and
Speaker 5: saying things that were hurtful and mean and then had
Speaker 5: to yeah, and then had to have her apologize to them.
Speaker 5: And so the whole episode, like I mean, and I
Speaker 5: did like such a great deep dive into psychology and like, really,
Speaker 5: what is an apology? What is what makes a good apology?
Speaker 5: What makes it important? And I was like I'm going
Speaker 5: to write it in like I want this to be
Speaker 5: in there. I want this to be the lesson episode
Speaker 5: that teaches people why apologizing is strength and important and
Speaker 5: how to do it in a meaningful way that actually
Speaker 5: means something and isn't just lip service anyway. That's a
Speaker 5: really long ass story.
Speaker 7: I've been thinking a lot about apologizing because I am
Speaker 7: also an overapologizer, have been called out for it, had
Speaker 7: friends do an intervention where they're like, you need to
Speaker 7: like understand that, like you're not doing anything wrong, Like
Speaker 7: when when there's something to apologize for, we'll let you know,
Speaker 7: and like that was nice. At the same time, and
Speaker 7: I've been thinking a lot about overexplaining and like the
Speaker 7: need to be understood, and I think I think it's
Speaker 7: this thing of like there's a line that gets crossed
Speaker 7: where it becomes and it attempts to control things, to
Speaker 7: like control how people see you, you know what I mean,
Speaker 7: Where it's like your attempts at repair and your attempts
Speaker 7: at like it's the delend thing.
Speaker 6: It's like why are you doing it?
Speaker 7: Are you doing it because you genuinely feel bad or
Speaker 7: because you're trying to control the outcome of this interaction
Speaker 7: before you even have any evidence that there's anything to control.
Speaker 7: It's like your brain is scanning for threats in advance,
Speaker 7: and so you need to like like take control of
Speaker 7: the situation and over explain or overapologize for yourself when
Speaker 7: like no one is needing or asking for you to
Speaker 7: do that.
Speaker 6: It's a fawning response.
Speaker 7: Right, And it attempts to like ingratiate yourself with people
Speaker 7: so that you are not exposed in any way, so
Speaker 7: that you are not uncomfortable in any way, so you
Speaker 7: don't actually have to genuinely feel bad. It's an attempt
Speaker 7: to like alleviate discomfort in advance for yourself. And it's like,
Speaker 7: discomfort is not necessarily bad. That's the thing about apologies,
Speaker 7: genuine apologies.
Speaker 6: It's like it's.
Speaker 7: Uncomfortable, but it should be not But yeah, but it's
Speaker 7: discomfort isn't bad. Discomfort is not a threat. Like anxiety
Speaker 7: comes from the inability to sit in discomfort.
Speaker 6: Yeah, because you viewed discomfort as a threat. Yeah, So
Speaker 6: like that's what I've.
Speaker 7: Been working on in myself, is like because at first,
Speaker 7: I was like, what's wrong with over explaining, Like isn't
Speaker 7: it good to make sure that everybody understands where you're
Speaker 7: coming from? And it's like, well yeah, but like at
Speaker 7: a certain point it takes your or oh, it's so
Speaker 7: much emotional labor that is not asked for and it's
Speaker 7: not really about them and making sure that their feelings
Speaker 7: are good. It's about controlling their perception of you, which
Speaker 7: is just as bad as not just as bad. It's
Speaker 7: different bad. Let's not say bad. It's a different issue then,
Speaker 7: but not dissimilar issue for being someone who can't apologize
Speaker 7: because you're again trying to control how people see you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's true, it's true.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 7: It comes from a desire to control the outcome of
Speaker 7: a social situation so that you're not left feeling uncertain
Speaker 7: and uncomfortable.
Speaker 9: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the apology thing.
Speaker 2: As a Canadian, I actually have had to explain to
Speaker 2: my Korean friends that when I say I'm sorry, I
Speaker 2: don't mean like the Korean version, which is miyanada. I like,
Speaker 2: if I mean nyandada, which is like I apologize or
Speaker 2: I'm sorry. I will say it in Korean. I'm not
Speaker 2: going to say it in English because when I say
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, I literally just mean a bad thing happened.
Speaker 2: Like that's that's what it means, a bad thing happened.
Speaker 2: And now I will say the bad thing like you know,
Speaker 2: somebody's coughing in the other room, I would say a
Speaker 2: bad thing happened. A person is coughing in the other room,
Speaker 2: like that's that's what it means. It doesn't mean anything,
Speaker 2: and then I'm okay, but then why do you Like,
Speaker 2: I don't know, I can't explain it. It's just language
Speaker 2: is stupid and weird. But bringing it back to the show,
Speaker 2: like that's I just really like that scene takes time,
Speaker 2: and it takes the time in that in that moment
Speaker 2: to see the whole emotional journey that Vier goes on,
Speaker 2: and I.
Speaker 6: It sits in the discomfort. It's the most discomfort.
Speaker 5: And also Veer's I mean, you know, all truth be told,
Speaker 5: like yes, the only thing he can do is say
Speaker 5: I'm sorry and offer his personal apology, which is wrapped
Speaker 5: up with condolences on that like on some level, but
Speaker 5: it's also like it's it's just like, how do you
Speaker 5: he Also, this is what's so beautiful about that performance.
Speaker 5: He knows that he could he could literally just let
Speaker 5: his veins and like and just bleed out on the
Speaker 5: floor and it would not in sufficient be sufficient for
Speaker 5: what has happened, and that Jaikar, the depth of what
Speaker 5: that apology is trying to represent, the depth of what
Speaker 5: he's apologizing for, is unknowable. And so it is a
Speaker 5: it's that is really clear in that moment as well,
Speaker 5: because it's not like sorry, Jakar, I told him the locker,
Speaker 5: your locker combination and your your gym clothes not stolen.
Speaker 5: You know, it's so much more than that, and it's
Speaker 5: it's a beautiful scene and says a lot about Stephen Firth.
Speaker 7: I've had some really and I won't go into what,
Speaker 7: but I've had some like pretty dark stuff happen in
Speaker 7: my life.
Speaker 6: And like I've talked about this before, where.
Speaker 7: I just I think about it and I'm like, I
Speaker 7: would so much rather have had it happen to me
Speaker 7: than live my life being a person that did those things,
Speaker 7: do you know what I mean?
Speaker 6: Like I think about that a lot.
Speaker 7: Yeah, Like, yeah, I think about those people a lot,
Speaker 7: and I think about them and I go, like, what
Speaker 7: a burden to carry for the rest of your life,
Speaker 7: because you if you've done something to someone where you know, sorry,
Speaker 7: is is it insufficient action?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 7: That is so hard to live now, Listen, they did
Speaker 7: they still did that thing, so like you know, on
Speaker 7: the one hand, like, yeah, I hope they think about it,
Speaker 7: and I hope they live with it, and well, let
Speaker 7: it up.
Speaker 6: But I sit here and I go.
Speaker 7: If I had to pick, and like, if there's two
Speaker 7: shitty scenarios in this case, ah fuck, like having to
Speaker 7: sit with being on the side of stuff where you're like, sorry,
Speaker 7: he doesn't cut it, but I'm going to try anyway.
Speaker 6: Damn. Like damn.
Speaker 7: Like that's the thing to carry. It's a thing to carry,
Speaker 7: and you carry it for the like if you are
Speaker 7: not a monster, you carry that shit for the rest
Speaker 7: of your life. Like you can shadow project and make
Speaker 7: some fucking terrible decisions, and then as you grow up
Speaker 7: and learn, then you have to circle back to that
Speaker 7: thing and sit with it and stay with the fact
Speaker 7: that you hurt people.
Speaker 5: You're right, you're right, But you just said if you're
Speaker 5: not a monster, and I just want to bring that.
Speaker 5: I want to like, I want to jump on that
Speaker 5: because we're talking about the episode of Jack the Ripper.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and.
Speaker 5: I don't think he has redeemed himself. I don't think
Speaker 5: he's not a monster by the end of this. You know,
Speaker 5: he's like, I've been inservited to them for vote under ideas,
Speaker 5: and yet he's also like I thought I was driven,
Speaker 5: My god, I thought I had a purpose.
Speaker 4: And and his.
Speaker 5: He's not, he's he hasn't convinced himself that he's not.
Speaker 5: He doesn't think he's a monster. Like I don't think
Speaker 5: that he thinks that he's not, Like I was this
Speaker 5: horrible person, and I'm so grateful to the Vorlans for
Speaker 5: rescuing me and setting me straight. Because he's and because
Speaker 5: even in the last moment when he's like saying, you know,
Speaker 5: when when Shardan figures out who he was and he's like,
Speaker 5: good luck on you, a quist, you know, because he's
Speaker 5: still kind of like my quest was holy too.
Speaker 4: I don't know.
Speaker 5: I just I don't see that he's like sorry, I
Speaker 5: don't see that he's come to terms with that. I
Speaker 5: think he is a monster. So I think when you're
Speaker 5: saying like Ali, when you're saying like I, you'd rather
Speaker 5: be the person who's had something happened to them rather
Speaker 5: than the person who committed the all those crimes and
Speaker 5: all those things, unless you're a monster. I think he's
Speaker 5: still a monster. And I don't think he does have
Speaker 5: the level of depth of understanding of that. I'm not
Speaker 5: sure that Jack does. I think other people do.
Speaker 9: Hope.
Speaker 4: It's that interesting thing of like many.
Speaker 6: I've been thinking about this a lot lately. It's so funny.
Speaker 7: I cut sometimes sometimes I'll be like grappling with something
Speaker 7: and then it comes up on the show. I'm like,
Speaker 7: it's so weird, or like I'll be or it'll come
Speaker 7: up in wheel of time, or I'll be like working
Speaker 7: on it in acting class somehow or whatever.
Speaker 6: It's like, it's so weird.
Speaker 7: But like, I've been thinking a lot about like people
Speaker 7: who do things, to do objectively bad things, and it's
Speaker 7: like the fact that one of the hard things as
Speaker 7: somebody who has had objectively difficult things happen, is not
Speaker 7: knowing the impact of that on another, on the person
Speaker 7: that did it to you, the people like your community,
Speaker 7: that kind of stuff, like you don't know, you don't
Speaker 7: get You don't get to know whether they sit up
Speaker 7: at night thinking about it. You don't get to know
Speaker 7: if it visits the highlight reel of bad stuff you've
Speaker 7: done in your life. You don't know if they even
Speaker 7: remember it sometimes right right, And like you don't get
Speaker 7: to control that, And it's like you don't get to
Speaker 7: control what happens, and you don't get to control like
Speaker 7: whether they reflect or how they reflect or how they
Speaker 7: make amends to or whether they do or like. But
Speaker 7: this man has theoretically been punished for four hundred years,
Speaker 7: right by the Vorlns. How much time do we at
Speaker 7: what point are we like? He has been suffered enough,
Speaker 7: even if he hasn't reflected.
Speaker 6: We know, we don't know punishment.
Speaker 5: His punishment is to go around and interview people, is
Speaker 5: to find out if they are worthy, And he says,
Speaker 5: I've literally done this gazillion times and I have not
Speaker 5: found anybody yet who was worthy.
Speaker 7: His punishment is that, over and over and over again,
Speaker 7: he has to re experience his own falsehoods for four
Speaker 7: hundred years, I guess, over and over and over again
Speaker 7: he threw other people, well intentioned people. Gets to re
Speaker 7: experience his own delusional thinking and have it thrown back
Speaker 7: in his face for four hundred years, over and over
Speaker 7: and over again. He gets to see himself and his
Speaker 7: delusional bullshit reflected in other people over and over and again.
Speaker 5: What you're saying, which is yes, I get what you're saying.
Speaker 5: And if he is a.
Speaker 7: Until he finally finds someone who's the real deal, who's
Speaker 7: exactly what he isn't, That's why he's bitter at the end. Yeah, okay,
Speaker 7: because Jeff is everything what of John's everything?
Speaker 3: He's not.
Speaker 6: He finally gets.
Speaker 7: Who he thought he was right and the real deal
Speaker 7: of it all and it and has to live with
Speaker 7: the fact that that's not him. Yeah, he did monstrous
Speaker 7: things thinking that he was right, and he he gets
Speaker 7: to highlight reel over and over again how stupid and
Speaker 7: like deluded he was for four hundred years, then gets
Speaker 7: to see who the actual real deal is everything that
Speaker 7: he is not.
Speaker 3: M hm.
Speaker 6: He just he still sounds like it sucks to me, and.
Speaker 2: I mean it doesn't seem like a love and you know,
Speaker 2: he's referring to it as unpleasant, so I'm going to
Speaker 2: assume that it's not. He's not enjoying himself, but he
Speaker 2: does still feel really wrapped up in his like, yeah,
Speaker 2: I was chosen by God to like kill a bunch
Speaker 2: of people in London. Oh wait, no, now I was
Speaker 2: chosen by the Vorlon to find the like he's still.
Speaker 5: Seen torture people into into finding them.
Speaker 6: Yeah, well he's uniquely suited to it. He's a violent person.
Speaker 1: I mean, that's exactly.
Speaker 7: Like I just said this today on the Wheel of
Speaker 7: Time podcast. I was like our on Wheel Takes. I
Speaker 7: was like, you know, people who become torturers are probably not.
Speaker 6: Inherently like the nicest people in the world.
Speaker 7: I'm going to be honest about that, Like not to
Speaker 7: offend the torturers out there. I'm sure many of them listen,
Speaker 7: but you know, I'm just gonna say that that doesn't
Speaker 7: seem like a career path that attracts like the most
Speaker 7: morally upstanding human beings. Yeah, Like, I'm not They're not
Speaker 7: going to go to John and be like, for four
Speaker 7: hundred years, we want you to torture people Like, they're
Speaker 7: gonna pick Jack the Ripper because he's gonna be good
Speaker 7: at it. He's gonna know what he's doing, and in
Speaker 7: recompense recompense in in return, he's also going to be
Speaker 7: punished for four hundred years.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 7: Yeah, it's kind of the perfect give in take. It's like,
Speaker 7: we know you have a unique set of skills. We
Speaker 7: know you are also a completely delusional human being and
Speaker 7: need to be reminded over and over again. Your soul
Speaker 7: at its base level, needs to be told over and
Speaker 7: over again what a fucking idiot you are. I don't
Speaker 7: like being called an idiot. Once let alone for four
Speaker 7: hundred years.
Speaker 1: I don't enjoy it.
Speaker 7: It's like I want the sweet release of death, is
Speaker 7: what he said. Yeah, how many people are like how
Speaker 7: much suffering do you have to go through before you're like,
Speaker 7: please let me die?
Speaker 6: And then you do that for four hundred years?
Speaker 4: I don't know.
Speaker 7: That seems like and that just gets to us to
Speaker 7: a point where it's like, at what point has someone
Speaker 7: suffered enough for us for our satisfaction? At what point
Speaker 7: is someone doing some who has done something awful? At
Speaker 7: what point do they suffer enough? Are we like, you
Speaker 7: know what, We're good now? At what point, like are
Speaker 7: we going to be like, you know what, Londo, this
Speaker 7: makes up for all the shit you did. There isn't
Speaker 7: a way to repay all that cost. There isn't He
Speaker 7: could suffer for thousands of years and there's no way
Speaker 7: to repay the cost of what he did, right.
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's just.
Speaker 7: At a certain point, do like you either have to
Speaker 7: I mean, forgiveness is done for you, not for the
Speaker 7: other person. I mean it's it's both. It's like but
Speaker 7: this is but at this.
Speaker 6: Place, like it's it's so you don't have to carry
Speaker 6: it anymore. They have to carry it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, so.
Speaker 2: I did want to just talk a little bit about
Speaker 2: what the Lens says at the end of the torture
Speaker 2: when he's like, you know, for this one person in
Speaker 2: the dark whatever, and then she but what about your cause?
Speaker 2: And she yells that this is my cause. My cause
Speaker 2: is life or a million, it doesn't matter, but that.
Speaker 7: I no, I mean yeah, I mean yeah, like it
Speaker 7: doesn't it's everyone's important.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's what it was waiting for her to say,
Speaker 5: Like I said, this is not an episode i'd seen,
Speaker 5: and so I didn't have like I didn't know where
Speaker 5: the lines are going. But that was like I just
Speaker 5: kept her wanting, wanting to hear her say it's sort
Speaker 5: of the the it doesn't matter how big or how small,
Speaker 5: because they keep talking about the great War, this big
Speaker 5: war is coming, like the war is coming, it's this
Speaker 5: big deal and like, you know, it's the you know,
Speaker 5: and the universe is at stake and whatever. I mean
Speaker 5: like that, you know, everybody's just like this is gonna
Speaker 5: be really big, this.
Speaker 4: Is a big thing.
Speaker 5: And her response of like, but every you know, every
Speaker 5: life matters, or if we're not, and I'm trying to
Speaker 5: like there's something else I have like that I've seen.
Speaker 5: It's something even you know, in recent media that I
Speaker 5: can't put my finger on, and maybe it's even real time,
Speaker 5: which I just know too well. But the idea being
Speaker 5: that if I can't save this one life next to me, like,
Speaker 5: then what does it matter about trying to save the
Speaker 5: entire galaxy or whatever.
Speaker 2: And it's literally a quote from the Tumut, whoever saves
Speaker 2: one life saves the world.
Speaker 1: That's a time quote.
Speaker 5: So mm hmm, yeah, yeah, yeah, well and it is
Speaker 5: a beautiful sentiment.
Speaker 7: Yeah yeah, well, I mean, I mean you even think
Speaker 7: about it just in terms of like our impact tends
Speaker 7: to not be like in this grand scale, right of
Speaker 7: like I'm a person who saved millions of people, right, Yeah,
Speaker 7: it's the impact that we tend to have tends to
Speaker 7: be in our immediate communities, like we build one house,
Speaker 7: we talk to one person. I was watching Zootopia too
Speaker 7: the other day, which is a profound film, and I
Speaker 7: will not be apologizing.
Speaker 6: For how much I love that movie.
Speaker 7: But like he literally the snake at one point literally
Speaker 7: says to Judy, He's like, who, I'm very Judy hops
Speaker 7: coded like I've always tried to, like, you know, do
Speaker 7: the most. And he just looks at her and he goes,
Speaker 7: my family has been trying to get this done for
Speaker 7: hundreds of years, and he goes, they would not want
Speaker 7: the like all of the all of that weight to
Speaker 7: be just on your shoulders, like nothing was meant to
Speaker 7: be on just one person's shoulders.
Speaker 6: We will succeed, Judy Hops. Yeah, And I say that
Speaker 6: to myself all the time.
Speaker 7: Now I just sit there and I go, we will succeed,
Speaker 7: Judy Hops, like it's I love that we will succeed.
Speaker 7: The difference that we make is largely like smiling at
Speaker 7: someone who needed someone to smile at them that day.
Speaker 6: That's that is, and we are not. And this is
Speaker 6: something that I always.
Speaker 7: Think about, is I'm like the coolest thing about like life,
Speaker 7: if if that was like a request I could make,
Speaker 7: is to know, like truly how much impact I had.
Speaker 6: I know, like, oh that person that like.
Speaker 7: You had that one brief interaction with that one time
Speaker 7: you never thought about them again.
Speaker 6: Yeah, that like changed their lives, Like that would be
Speaker 6: so cool to know.
Speaker 5: It would be And I think it's and you have
Speaker 5: to know that you'll never know all the stories so
Speaker 5: that there are so many of those out there that
Speaker 5: you just and when you hear it from somebody, it'll
Speaker 5: be the smallest thing that you like that you're like,
Speaker 5: what I just all I said was cheese, you know whatever,
Speaker 5: I mean. It'll be something so seems so small and
Speaker 5: mundane to you that in the moment you didn't even
Speaker 5: think about it. It was just so authentic coming from you
Speaker 5: that had a massive impact on something. I just actually
Speaker 5: told a good friend of mine, a good friend of
Speaker 5: mine who I'm like, I don't I haven't seen her
Speaker 5: physically in thirty years, about twenty five years, but you know,
Speaker 5: we just had a zoom call with everybody. It was
Speaker 5: the first time I actually had zoom caller where that
Speaker 5: we've only been like texting for years and we don't
Speaker 5: text all the time, not very often. And I told
Speaker 5: her this thing that she that she did for David
Speaker 5: and I right before we got married that was so
Speaker 5: impactful for our wedding and that we tell the story
Speaker 5: all the time. And she was like, I don't even
Speaker 5: remember saying that, and I'm like, of course you don't,
Speaker 5: because it was so obvious and simple and authentic to you,
Speaker 5: and it had such an impact on us that it
Speaker 5: because she came to our pre wedding party in the
Speaker 5: West Coast. It had such an impact on this that
Speaker 5: it affected our actual wedding day in such a profound
Speaker 5: way and impacted how we experience things together in the future,
Speaker 5: like in our whole lives since then. And it is
Speaker 5: a story we tell that we tell to people who
Speaker 5: are getting married, like like a piece of advice kind
Speaker 5: of thing, and we tell them this story about how
Speaker 5: how we got this advice.
Speaker 4: And she was just like, I don't even remember doing it.
Speaker 4: I'm like, I bet you don't. Yeah, you know, yeah,
Speaker 4: it's really no.
Speaker 6: The idea is how we am no white people none.
Speaker 6: And it's like that's the thing is.
Speaker 7: It's like, yeah, you're impacting people all the time, like
Speaker 7: all the time, and you have no idea, Like I mean,
Speaker 7: I bet it's quite possible that the woman that you
Speaker 7: lived with who said that to you about apologies, like
Speaker 7: has no idea that she said that.
Speaker 6: Does not remember.
Speaker 7: Like it's possible she might not remember that abs And
Speaker 7: it made an impact on you that you're telling the
Speaker 7: story you were fourteen.
Speaker 1: Like yeah, well that's I just realized.
Speaker 5: And I'm always having now two years ago, when she's
Speaker 5: said that to me, you know, I mean.
Speaker 2: Somebody said, somebody said something like that to me when
Speaker 2: I was around middle school age. They complimented me on something,
Speaker 2: and I did that whole like, no, no, no, no,
Speaker 2: you realize you're insulting me because I complimented you and
Speaker 2: you are telling me that you don't like that thing.
Speaker 2: You've just insulted me. You've insulted my taste. And so
Speaker 2: like I was like, oh shit, oh my god, you're right.
Speaker 2: So now, like I I take compliments because of like
Speaker 2: a random thing.
Speaker 1: It was a woman at church. It was a woman
Speaker 1: at church who said that to me.
Speaker 2: It's like, oh, yeah, no, when people compliment you, that's
Speaker 2: them saying a nice thing, and if.
Speaker 1: You deflect from it, you literally are saying, yeah, I
Speaker 1: think your taste is bad. Yeah, your tastes is sad.
Speaker 6: No, it's wild, it's wild.
Speaker 7: What like, yeah, what someone will say to you that
Speaker 7: just sticks with you for the rest of your day life.
Speaker 1: She was just an old lady who said that to
Speaker 1: me at church.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I remember it was.
Speaker 1: Like thirty five, because I was thirty.
Speaker 7: Reach out to I reach out to a former teacher
Speaker 7: of Bine recently and said to her, like, you don't
Speaker 7: remember this, probably, but you said something to me at
Speaker 7: a really pivotal time in my life that I still.
Speaker 6: Think about all the times of this day.
Speaker 7: And it was really cute, Like we had a cute
Speaker 7: little interaction on Facebook, and it was like it was
Speaker 7: so nice, and it had been wet like over a
Speaker 7: decade since I've seen her.
Speaker 4: It's really sweet.
Speaker 7: Yeah, truly, it's nice, Like, yeah, we have impacts on
Speaker 7: people all the time. We have no idea, like you
Speaker 7: have no idea, and like, and those are going to
Speaker 7: be the things that are going to be the most
Speaker 7: immediate like that, and you're never going You're probably not
Speaker 7: going to see most of your impact. And that's why
Speaker 7: it's like, no, every single person matters because they're all
Speaker 7: influencing and informing each other all the time.
Speaker 6: Our our like frequencies.
Speaker 7: Are project outside of our bodies, Like how we're doing
Speaker 7: that day, just walking by someone influences how that other
Speaker 7: person feels.
Speaker 6: Like we are like like.
Speaker 7: Fields of energy, always influencing each other all the time.
Speaker 7: So it's just like once you start to recognize that that,
Speaker 7: you're like, I have so much more power just in
Speaker 7: my little body than I think I do just in
Speaker 7: walking by somebody and being a good vibe, Like, that's
Speaker 7: huge because you could also I mean, how many times
Speaker 7: has someone ruined your fucking day and you don't even
Speaker 7: know their name?
Speaker 6: So many times?
Speaker 1: I'm sure I've done it to other people too.
Speaker 7: Like it I'm sure, and it's like you just you
Speaker 7: just then you just start to like kind of go Okay.
Speaker 7: Then one of the best things I can do for
Speaker 7: the world is try to be a vibe as much
Speaker 7: as possible. I'd be aware of myself enough to try
Speaker 7: to be a vibe like and not put all my
Speaker 7: bullshit on other people. Yeah, Like, it's it's really that simple,
Speaker 7: you know, I don't know, it's like that. That is
Speaker 7: one of the best things you can do right now.
Speaker 7: You can do today all the time. Like if you're
Speaker 7: feeling shitty about how the world is, you can literally
Speaker 7: look at yourself and go, like, what if I was
Speaker 7: just a vibe today and I made like the cashier
Speaker 7: and whole food smile.
Speaker 6: Great, you've done You've done good that day. You did
Speaker 6: a good job.
Speaker 7: Great, you made one person happy that for five seconds, Like,
Speaker 7: isn't that.
Speaker 4: Like what we're here to do mm hmm. So yeah, but.
Speaker 7: Or you could just be a drip that and a
Speaker 7: drain on people. That's fun too, I guess, like for
Speaker 7: about five minutes, Like what a waste of your time,
Speaker 7: their time and your life. Yeah, yeah, lets people do it.
Speaker 6: People choose that, why not? But like, I don't know,
Speaker 6: it seems like a waste, waste of time.
Speaker 7: Yeah, so that's like, but that's a whole like the
Speaker 7: whole thing of like what de Lenne said to him,
Speaker 7: which he was like, I think that you're like this
Speaker 7: and lady, da da dad, And I was like, well,
Speaker 7: that's also quite presumptuous about somebody. Like we'll sometimes have
Speaker 7: people treat a shitaly and we'll just decide that person's
Speaker 7: a fucking awful person. And I'm like, all right, how
Speaker 7: many times have you accidentally been awful to somebody? Like
Speaker 7: never assume malice where ignorance could be explained.
Speaker 6: You have no idea feelings.
Speaker 1: She could assume some sort Well she didn't.
Speaker 6: End up finding out that.
Speaker 7: I mean, he ended up being Jack the Ripper, so like, okay,
Speaker 7: you know, but I'm like, maybe, but you've known him
Speaker 7: about ten minutes.
Speaker 1: Like that's right, he has been torturing her the entire time.
Speaker 6: Granted, granted, granted, but like that is also his job.
Speaker 7: But again, as you said, somebody who listen, listen, I'm like,
Speaker 7: there's a lot of nuance to unpack here.
Speaker 6: Two things can be true at the same time.
Speaker 7: He can't have been Jack the Ripper, and she can't
Speaker 7: have also been quite presumptuous because she didn't know it
Speaker 7: was Jack the fucking Ripper.
Speaker 4: This is true. This is true, This is true.
Speaker 7: There could be multiple truths that exist simultaneously, and the
Speaker 7: minute that we get comfortable with that fact, the better
Speaker 7: we will be doing. As a specie my opinion.
Speaker 2: Yes, do we have any other thoughts about this specific episode?
Speaker 6: It was a ripper?
Speaker 4: What you did?
Speaker 3: You know what?
Speaker 6: I didn't even do it on purpose until I did,
Speaker 6: do you know what I mean? Like I started saying it.
Speaker 7: By the time I finished the sentence, I had done
Speaker 7: it on purpose.
Speaker 6: But when I started the sentence, I did not. You
Speaker 6: know what I mean?
Speaker 1: Yes, I Oh my god, that's amazing. Any other jen
Speaker 1: any thoughts that we can know the power of now?
Speaker 6: It's so good, Okay, I'm going to be the power
Speaker 6: of now. I swear to God.
Speaker 7: I totally needs to start paying me because I serious, serious,
Speaker 7: like work for like trulye Pacholdren is also great. Check
Speaker 7: her out as well. Anyway, everybody should be doing that anyway.
Speaker 3: Yea.
Speaker 1: Well, on that note, I do have some stuff to
Speaker 1: say that you're not allowed to hear, Ali.
Speaker 7: So oh okay, now I need to I've never you know,
Speaker 7: it's so funny. I've never been the one to put
Speaker 7: out of this no, so I got to figure this out.
Speaker 6: Okay, leave studio.
Speaker 10: Yeah, my friends, you have reached the most dangerous part
Speaker 10: of our journey, the Gray Council.
Speaker 11: Here we speak of things that must not be spoken, secrets, betrayals, spoilers.
Speaker 11: If you are not ready, turned back now. But if
Speaker 11: you dare to proceed, I promise you it will be.
Speaker 1: If I said.
Speaker 3: We got a baldy.
Speaker 2: This episode is such a different one to watch once
Speaker 2: you know who the Vorlons are and what they're doing,
Speaker 2: because while yes, ego death good and healthy, there was
Speaker 2: no fucking need for this. This is a philosophy argument
Speaker 2: with the Shadows. Why are we torturing de Len?
Speaker 5: I was really like, and I was trying. I was like,
Speaker 5: as soon as I started going on about him making douche.
Speaker 5: I was like, because I actually I knew that there
Speaker 5: was a Jack the Ripper episode, but.
Speaker 4: I like it did not I did not.
Speaker 5: I didn't read the Lurker's Guide first, so I'm kind
Speaker 5: of glad I didn't because I didn't put the two
Speaker 5: and two together.
Speaker 4: I should have liked SiZ at eighteen eighty eight. I
Speaker 4: was like an idiot or eighteen hundreds.
Speaker 5: But but but I didn't. I didn't think. I was like,
Speaker 5: I was just like I was.
Speaker 9: I was.
Speaker 5: I was just like, you guys are dickheads for doing this,
Speaker 5: and I was mad at Cash from the and then
Speaker 5: I was like, fuck, I'm like, I'm mad at Cash
Speaker 5: because I know more.
Speaker 2: Yeah, But then I'm like, no, I'm not like even
Speaker 2: because I know I was in I was in the
Speaker 2: same boat as them the first time. Obviously, yes, even
Speaker 2: I don't I'm not doubt the second time. But I
Speaker 2: definitely like the first time I watched this, I was like,
Speaker 2: he's got a purpose. This is job in the Bible,
Speaker 2: although even job in the Bible is like, why did
Speaker 2: you do that?
Speaker 6: Yeah?
Speaker 5: Yah, yeah yeah yeah, And I think maybe that's I think, well,
Speaker 5: that's a really good point that when you talk about
Speaker 5: the first time you watched it versus now, because I
Speaker 5: think me, as a younger me, would have been more
Speaker 5: like it's job in the Bible, and it's there's a purpose,
Speaker 5: and me, me like agnostic atheists, grown up jen is like,
Speaker 5: fuck you for job in the Bible.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 5: And so there's a part of me that's like, no,
Speaker 5: you don't have to. And I also do I not
Speaker 5: think that people like become deeper if they've suffered. I
Speaker 5: think you have to live. I think things happen to
Speaker 5: every good buddy. But this idea of you have to
Speaker 5: go through it to reflect on it, you have to
Speaker 5: like break everything down. I mean, here's the thing. It's like,
Speaker 5: I'm a horse trainer. I grew up riding and training horses,
Speaker 5: and the idea of like you've got to break a
Speaker 5: horse's spirit, You've got to break a horse to be
Speaker 5: able to ride them, versus the like the different sort
Speaker 5: of training that is more common today that like Mike
Speaker 5: Roberts started and stuff of like you know, like let's
Speaker 5: it doesn't have to be a battle in a competition.
Speaker 4: It can be a cooperation.
Speaker 5: And this to me is gratuitously like thankfully. It's just
Speaker 5: like zapping people with energy and like whatever, and like
Speaker 5: I'm like, I can be comfortable watching the actor go
Speaker 5: ah and pain knowing that they're not and I'm not
Speaker 5: seeing Game of Thrones level garbage, but which then I
Speaker 5: would have a whole of the conversation about why are
Speaker 5: we watching this? And I'm not saying it's gratuitous and
Speaker 5: GMS is part, but I am saying that that idea
Speaker 5: that you have, yeah it is, and like the idea
Speaker 5: that we have to break you down to make sure
Speaker 5: that you are the thing. And also Jack the Ripper's
Speaker 5: line that he says of like I've never found anyone
Speaker 5: who is willing to just sacrifice in the dark with
Speaker 5: no one watching them, And I'm like, bull fucking shit,
Speaker 5: or a you've never tortured a mom, because no fucking
Speaker 5: mother on this planet wouldn't be like fucking take my
Speaker 5: life to save my kid. When when this is all
Speaker 5: going down and I don't care if we're in a
Speaker 5: dark cave and no one's going to see it, I'm
Speaker 5: not here to be a hero. I'm here because I
Speaker 5: love that part of my body that is outside of
Speaker 5: my body even more and I see all the potential
Speaker 5: that my younger thing, this younger person can grow into.
Speaker 4: So like fucking.
Speaker 5: Bullshit, I like call such bullshit on that line of
Speaker 5: like in all these four hundred years, no one is
Speaker 5: it's just who the Vorlon sent him to, like right,
Speaker 5: And I'm like, also, like that proves that you're the one.
Speaker 5: I'm like, no, that is that you're a fucking empathetic
Speaker 5: human being. Yeah, there are lots of people who would say,
Speaker 5: you know, I see why I want that person to
Speaker 5: live more, and a lot of couples it would be
Speaker 5: like I like my I like I save my partners,
Speaker 5: save my partner.
Speaker 4: I don't want to see my plate.
Speaker 2: Partners strangers have save strangers like it's yests, like it's ysts.
Speaker 2: It's such a The arrogance of the Vorlons makes like
Speaker 2: I do have to consistently remind myself that this cash
Speaker 2: eventually is gonna he he's nicer than the other Vorlons.
Speaker 2: But they are they are doing things, they are moving
Speaker 2: pieces around on a board because we are not real
Speaker 2: to me.
Speaker 9: Of value to them.
Speaker 5: But it's also like, but there is even a level
Speaker 5: of like sociopath to it, because I mean, look, I
Speaker 5: I'm an animal BIOst I'm an animal behaviorist, Like I
Speaker 5: don't and I've never subscribed to the like humans have
Speaker 5: souls and animals stones and whatever, and they're lesser than us.
Speaker 5: At the same time, we get infested in California with
Speaker 5: these things called argentine ants. They're tiny little ants and
Speaker 5: they just like a million of them come into your
Speaker 5: house on there like trek through California, and then they
Speaker 5: go out a few days later, but they don't leave
Speaker 5: really unless you convince them to leave, and you kind
Speaker 5: of have to kill them along the way. Admittedly, I
Speaker 5: have killed many and I am very sorry and I
Speaker 5: feel actually bad about it. But at the same time,
Speaker 5: I'm not pitting one aunt against another and being like
Speaker 5: difference choose who's the sacrifice, like chooses the thing. And
Speaker 5: I'm like, that's fucking sociopathic behavior.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like that's what it's. They are.
Speaker 2: They are orchestrating this, and part of me thinks that
Speaker 2: one of the reasons they did this is not just
Speaker 2: to like make sure that the lens the one, but
Speaker 2: it will make it feel more like they are above
Speaker 2: her in this, like they are. It's it's the it's
Speaker 2: theater for the len, we are putting you through a
Speaker 2: trial that will make you feel more short a in
Speaker 2: your place, in our plan, but also in our place.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we are allowed to judge.
Speaker 4: You have control.
Speaker 5: We have the control in the judge and yeah they Yeah,
Speaker 5: I'm just like I was mad at them the whole time.
Speaker 5: I was mad at them for doing it. I was
Speaker 5: like it's unnecessary and I'm like, you're and your excuse that,
Speaker 5: Like that's what trustte, that's what proves you're the chosen
Speaker 5: one and you're the only two that can save the word.
Speaker 5: I mean because I know that that, like we're going
Speaker 5: to this place where like they are important characters in
Speaker 5: this story and have to be there, but I'm like,
Speaker 5: this is not the trial that shows us that. And
Speaker 5: also I understand the philosophy of like the question of
Speaker 5: who are you, and like you are more than your name,
Speaker 5: You are more than your father's name, you are more
Speaker 5: than your job, you are more than your position in society.
Speaker 5: I get that. Yeah, but the the the the idea
Speaker 5: of that is you keep asking the question when the
Speaker 5: answer is this to me, the way to get to
Speaker 5: the question, to gain is to just like to just
Speaker 5: wait and listen, like not to say, oh, good answer.
Speaker 4: It's to say go.
Speaker 5: Deeper, go deeper, yeah, and not to go zap zabs app.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: There are so many other ways that they could have
Speaker 2: done this, but they do it this way this way
Speaker 2: because hey, it's the same as like people who pull
Speaker 2: a really weird thing out of my hat, but like
Speaker 2: Temple Grandon coming up with a different way to sorry,
Speaker 2: you just talk about.
Speaker 5: Soupburn conditioning, no, but upburn conditioning, yes, it's.
Speaker 2: Coming up with a different way to slaughter animals humanely,
Speaker 2: and everybody going, yeah, but we've been doing it this
Speaker 2: way and we don't really care about their suffering.
Speaker 1: Because it doesn't matter to us.
Speaker 2: It doesn't matter, And that's like there is it. There
Speaker 2: are other ways that they could have gotten her to
Speaker 2: that point of like if they thought, okay, I can't
Speaker 2: I still don't like that they're manipulating this battle, like
Speaker 2: they're literally creating a war that we have to fight in.
Speaker 2: But whatever, they want to get us to the point
Speaker 2: where we're going to fight in the war. There are
Speaker 2: other ways they could do it that would not be
Speaker 2: damaging and painful, but they do not care. They just
Speaker 2: care about the outcome, so they're not going to think
Speaker 2: about other ways to do it.
Speaker 5: And it's not like it's getting there faster either. Like
Speaker 5: you know, you could even you could even not make
Speaker 5: the excuse for but you could you could write a
Speaker 5: scenario where if you don't learn these lessons by tomorrow
Speaker 5: when they're going to get here, we're going to lose
Speaker 5: this war. Like I need to put you through through
Speaker 5: the ringer today. You need to like grow up overnight,
Speaker 5: whatever that is. Like you could you could come up
Speaker 5: with other scenarios where it would be very important to say,
Speaker 5: we'd love to be gentle about this, but we can't be.
Speaker 5: We got to ask you the hard questions right now
Speaker 5: and go deep. But this was like again, like you said,
Speaker 5: it just feel gratuitous.
Speaker 2: It is, and I don't I want to be very clear,
Speaker 2: I'm not saying that this is gratuitous on on jms's part.
Speaker 1: I feel what it feels like.
Speaker 2: And I've reference the show here before, but it's like
Speaker 2: the good where you're watching it and being like why
Speaker 2: why is why can't ge On you bleed?
Speaker 1: And why does no why does Cheety have a stomach ache?
Speaker 2: And like that's where and then you get to the
Speaker 2: end and you're like, oh, end of season one and
Speaker 2: a big reveal happens.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna try that to buy a bit.
Speaker 2: A reveal happens, and you go, oh, okay, that's what
Speaker 2: it's gratuitous here. But if you are looking at it
Speaker 2: from the lens of here, you go, oh, they have
Speaker 2: a purpose, they have a plan, blah blah blah. And
Speaker 2: when you look back on you.
Speaker 1: Go, no, that was a clue. That was a clue
Speaker 1: that they.
Speaker 2: Were not good guys, and that was what that feels
Speaker 2: That's what it feels like. I don't think it's gratuitous
Speaker 2: on jms's part.
Speaker 1: I think it is.
Speaker 5: I agree, I too, think it is intentional, and I
Speaker 5: think it is his intention of saying like it's it's
Speaker 5: one of his clues that he's laying that the Vorlons
Speaker 5: are the benevolent angels that we think they are.
Speaker 2: That we're gonna find out that they look like next episode.
Speaker 2: And I sorry, I know I did that a little.
Speaker 2: Heavi heavy handedly getting his prediction in there, but he
Speaker 2: sent that d to me three weeks ago have to
Speaker 2: talk about it in the podcast, and I desperately wanted
Speaker 2: to get that thing about him saying so they kind
Speaker 2: of look like angels, or maybe they look like angels
Speaker 2: before the next episode when they're going to look like angels. Yes, yes, yes,
Speaker 2: both heavy handed, and I apologize, but there was no
Speaker 2: other way to do it.
Speaker 4: I'm so glad we did.
Speaker 5: But I heard something different in the way that he
Speaker 5: described it, Like I kind of went back and looked
Speaker 5: at it. Is that the theory he did too well?
Speaker 5: I he said something before, but and you and I
Speaker 5: talked about it about like he's clued into how how
Speaker 5: angels look different to every alien race, every species, because
Speaker 5: we all have our own mythology of what an angel is.
Speaker 5: But he didn't today. He said there's a universal angel
Speaker 5: that every race shares or something. And so I think
Speaker 5: it's going to be really exciting because it's gonna because
Speaker 5: they're gonna have to tweak it a little bit and
Speaker 5: be like, oh no, he actually looks different depending to
Speaker 5: whom he is appearing, Like.
Speaker 1: Does actually different to whoever he's appearing to.
Speaker 5: This is true, So I guess that side of it
Speaker 5: makes it the universe universality of it.
Speaker 2: But but it is different, You're right, which is why
Speaker 2: it's difficult for it. Like that the reason he's in
Speaker 2: the encounter students, because he would have to.
Speaker 1: He has to conscious.
Speaker 2: I don't know if it's conscious, might be reflexive, but
Speaker 2: he looks it's a slightly different winged angel to every species.
Speaker 5: So you're what you're did Contact come out the movie Contact?
Speaker 5: Well whatever, Sagan had written it way before this, and
Speaker 5: I'm sure that JMS read Sagan because that I mean,
Speaker 5: and not that this hasn't been done before, but that
Speaker 5: is the idea in Contact, the aliens take the form
Speaker 5: that you that looks familiar to you.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 5: The movie Contact probably came out around ninety four, but
Speaker 5: the book came out in the seven indies, I think,
Speaker 5: so yeah, anyway.
Speaker 2: Yeah, just I'll read the direct quote from his from
Speaker 2: the from our DMS. Although we did talk about it,
Speaker 2: he and I talked about it separately, and then uh,
Speaker 2: but anyway, this I can't remember exactly what he said,
Speaker 2: but this is what he said. Maybe Kush looks like
Speaker 2: an angel. Maybe everyone has the same conception of quote angel,
Speaker 2: and that's why everyone would recognize him.
Speaker 1: And then that was it. Because I didn't want to harp.
Speaker 2: I didn't want to be like, oh, that's interesting again,
Speaker 2: because I didn't wanted to realize that I was interested
Speaker 2: in that, so I just I pretended I didn't see
Speaker 2: it until he then a couple of later.
Speaker 5: Next later one was oh I missed that one.
Speaker 2: Because then he put the oh new theory to lend
Speaker 2: his telepathic blah blah blah. And then I said, oh, yeah,
Speaker 2: I said, I missed your other theory.
Speaker 1: Sorry.
Speaker 5: So it was very clever. You got me on that too.
Speaker 2: Yeah, anyway, that was I'm very very pleased with them.
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is this is one of those ones.
Speaker 2: Is such a different one to watch, uh, knowing who
Speaker 2: the Vorlons are, and then the vere apology get like
Speaker 2: I like I said, I love how long we it
Speaker 2: in that moment, but it also again just a mirror
Speaker 2: or I don't know, mirror is the only word I
Speaker 2: can think of right now, but comparing him to Londo,
Speaker 2: who has like his big arc you know, and I
Speaker 2: guess season one, whatever season it is with the technomages, uh,
Speaker 2: where he takes in the entire episode to apologize.
Speaker 1: Like a lot of season.
Speaker 2: Five to finally apologize to Jakar and it's going to
Speaker 2: have a heart attack and and all of this, and
Speaker 2: he will say sorry and Jakar will forgive him, like
Speaker 2: I can forgive you, but I can't like my people
Speaker 2: can never forget like you know. And and Jakar's forgiveness
Speaker 2: at that point is very individual.
Speaker 5: Like yes, what they have done together specifically.
Speaker 2: Exactly like it's it's not yeah, And it's because I
Speaker 2: don't know.
Speaker 1: There's no way to.
Speaker 2: You as you guys were taught, like I found myself,
Speaker 2: like there's just there are some things that there's no
Speaker 2: apology that can cover. But certain point forgiveness has to
Speaker 2: be given. Well, it doesn't have to be, but it
Speaker 2: is health. It is good to release things, just even
Speaker 2: with the depths of it. And I just know the
Speaker 2: show handles it so well. Yeah, and and oh that was.
Speaker 1: The other thing. I didn't write it down. I was okay,
Speaker 1: my nose, there's another thought.
Speaker 2: But the difference between when you were talking about that's
Speaker 2: why I was agreeing with you when you were talking
Speaker 2: about how Jack still seems like a monster at the end,
Speaker 2: the difference between him and Londo at the end, where
Speaker 2: I I don't think Londo's a monster at the end,
Speaker 2: even though what Londo did is like arguably factually objectively
Speaker 2: in the firy.
Speaker 5: Fictional way worse way worse.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, he has a certain he has accepted his
Speaker 2: guilt at the end, like ye, like and his respon
Speaker 2: responsibility where I never got that mixed that feeling from
Speaker 2: like Jack. Jack was like I was chosen then and
Speaker 2: I'm chosen now and yeah, I'm miserable, but I was
Speaker 2: chosen for this and this is where I'm living my destiny.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah.
Speaker 5: Whereas and he didn't like and his thing of like,
Speaker 5: you know, you're the chosen one too. He was kind
Speaker 5: of like, you're just like me. He wasn't like you're
Speaker 5: the You're what I thought.
Speaker 4: I was like that. I didn't that didn't see that
Speaker 4: at all.
Speaker 5: He was like, no, you're just like maybe yeah, no,
Speaker 5: maybe you're also wrong maybe.
Speaker 2: And it was almost like an abdication of his responsibility,
Speaker 2: Whereas that's the different, like Londo has taken responsibility for
Speaker 2: what he did and he suffers horribly, but it is
Speaker 2: like there is no sense of him being like, well,
Speaker 2: I just sort of fell into that, and it was like, no,
Speaker 2: I made these choices and I have taken respect. The
Speaker 2: difference between them, it was I never thought that. I
Speaker 2: never thought to compare Londo and Jack the Ripper until
Speaker 2: when you were having that conversation, it's like that is interesting, Yeah,
Speaker 2: because you don't like Jack I think in his last
Speaker 2: ones on the show, where I still like when Londo
Speaker 2: is suffering, it's like, I'm so sad that you're suffering.
Speaker 2: You deserve it, I'm glad you're suffering, but I'm also
Speaker 2: sad about it.
Speaker 1: I don't know how that it makes no sense.
Speaker 5: Iense like but that's no yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, sure
Speaker 5: those are.
Speaker 1: There's a good episode. It's a very good episode. Not
Speaker 1: much like one, well two things things.
Speaker 5: Yeah, not much of the but but not a time
Speaker 5: going on in terms of like I mean, there's the
Speaker 5: Chikar sub plot of trying to get that get the
Speaker 5: message weapons and stuff and yeah, and the message and
Speaker 5: like hang on to power, well whatever power that is
Speaker 5: what that means. But yeah, there's that, there's that side story,
Speaker 5: but it really just feels like it's the delend story.
Speaker 1: It's definitely the Delen story.
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh, I did mean to talk. Well, we just
Speaker 2: ran out of time, so it wasn't something I skipped
Speaker 2: in whatever. But when we're during the reaction, when Lanier
Speaker 2: shows up, there's questions how did he find them? It
Speaker 2: is addressed in the notes. I actually filmed the scene
Speaker 2: where he gets worried about Dylenn and goes Tolson, but
Speaker 2: it just was cut for time, and.
Speaker 4: I yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 5: And I was like, I mean, I was like, it's
Speaker 5: a big stay station. But it's also like not that hard.
Speaker 5: I mean, Sheridan knows where she is because he was like, and.
Speaker 2: He's her attache, So why wouldn't she have told him
Speaker 2: I'm going to grade nineteen?
Speaker 5: Yeah, exactly. It wasn't a big leap for me. It
Speaker 5: wasn't a hard it wasn't a hard lead for me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not for me either. But yeah, I think
Speaker 1: I think that those are.
Speaker 2: It.
Speaker 5: I'm just gonna I think that's it for me for sure. Yeah,
Speaker 5: except that I find myself okay, so this is the
Speaker 5: opposite of I do have one thing.
Speaker 4: This is the opposite of the londo of it all.
Speaker 5: I find myself obviously sympathizing with Jakar and caring so
Speaker 5: much about Jakar and his journey and his story now,
Speaker 5: and I do find it sometimes hard to reconcile that
Speaker 5: with Hey, Leita, Heylita, you want to make some babies,
Speaker 5: like I mean, and it is you know. And I'm
Speaker 5: also gonna just say like a part of that was
Speaker 5: like jam Us writing a pilot and then like finding
Speaker 5: his way and like nuancing it in the year that
Speaker 5: it was from the pilot to episode one. But sometimes
Speaker 5: I look at that, I'm like, why do I like you?
Speaker 5: I did not like you.
Speaker 2: Jakar does one thing like that is one of those
Speaker 2: I think part of writing that into the pilot and
Speaker 2: is you were not supposed to like Jakar at first.
Speaker 2: You were something like Londo and so making him do
Speaker 2: creepy things and it wasn't like he was.
Speaker 5: Nah, he wasn't as creepy as I mean, frankly, doctor
Speaker 5: Steven is just as screepy.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: He was offering what he thought was a position like
Speaker 2: it's it is creepy, it's uncomfortable and gross, but it
Speaker 2: also is like he was trying to be pragmatic.
Speaker 1: I don't know, it's weird.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but yeah, he does one other thing later on
Speaker 2: in the in the show that is one of the
Speaker 2: things that I Nope, didn't happen.
Speaker 1: It did not happen.
Speaker 2: That is my thing where he gets a false eye
Speaker 2: because Cartagia takes out one of his eyes and he
Speaker 2: gets like a prosthetic eye and when I'm just gonna
Speaker 2: mention it now and then we'll have to talk about
Speaker 2: it when it happens, and then I'm just gonna pretend
Speaker 2: it never happens, because uh, Delenn and Sheridan get married.
Speaker 2: He leaves his eye in their room because he can
Speaker 2: see it.
Speaker 5: Yes, yeah, that's pretty gross and also really gross.
Speaker 1: It's really gross. It's also not just a car.
Speaker 2: I'm trying to think when when did show right, like,
Speaker 2: when did men male writers start to realize that peeping
Speaker 2: was not cute or funny it was an incredible violation
Speaker 2: and a sex crime because like think about Back to
Speaker 2: the Future, which begins with oh he's a peeping tom.
Speaker 2: Look how nerdy and dorky and endearing he is, Like
Speaker 2: that's what the tom is supposed to make you feel
Speaker 2: like he's a little endearing.
Speaker 1: Nerd instead of Oh, no, that's a fucking sex.
Speaker 2: Criminal who is violating that woman sexually, Like yes.
Speaker 5: Why, yes, I mean And then well it was also
Speaker 5: that isn't because it's Christmin Glover right, It wasn't smarty
Speaker 5: he was yeah, yeah, but because I'm like, because you
Speaker 5: can't say nobody can ever say anything bad about Michael J.
Speaker 4: Fox.
Speaker 5: But but I wonder, Okay, I'm gonna go like, fuck,
Speaker 5: all right, am I making excuses for disgusting men? Or
Speaker 5: am I trying to find okay? Because I was gonna say,
Speaker 5: is there is there a culture because because pranking a
Speaker 5: wedding couple on their wedding night, it's also not on
Speaker 5: like there are many cultures in which there are pranks
Speaker 5: or watching. I mean, it used to be that you
Speaker 5: actually watched a couple consummate their marriage to make sure
Speaker 5: that they actually consummated their marriage. Let's talk about how
Speaker 5: that's bad in so many ways. But but I'm actually
Speaker 5: remembering my my, my cousins, my cousins. So one of
Speaker 5: my cousins is a priest who married me. He like,
Speaker 5: performed the ceremony, not married me. I didn't marry my cousin.
Speaker 5: I know my cousin married me.
Speaker 9: I do.
Speaker 5: And but he and so he's you know, so he's
Speaker 5: a Catholic priest. He's a Catholic priest. He is a
Speaker 5: celibate Catholic priest. And then his brother, my cousin, Greg,
Speaker 5: whom I adore both of them. Greg is a prankster
Speaker 5: in a big way, like always has been, knows how
Speaker 5: to make me cry when we're playing cards, Like he
Speaker 5: can be a dick, but I love him and he
Speaker 5: he and Mike jumped in a car and tried to
Speaker 5: We drove away from the reception to go to our hotel,
Speaker 5: and David's best man drove us. But the idea was
Speaker 5: like we were leaving and going out and we just
Speaker 5: like drove out into the country because it was beautiful's
Speaker 5: where we grew up and we wanted to go see it.
Speaker 5: But they tried to follow us because nobody knew where
Speaker 5: we were spending the night, nobody knew what hotel we
Speaker 5: were staying at that night, and they tried to follow
Speaker 5: us because they wanted to like yell outside the window
Speaker 5: all night, right, which was so silly and dumb.
Speaker 2: But that me is different because it would be a
Speaker 2: prince that you were aware of, whereas your car does
Speaker 2: not be like ha ha ha, I'm leaving an eye here,
Speaker 2: or even the next day it was like ha ha ha,
Speaker 2: I left my eye here so I could watch you.
Speaker 5: It was that's just really disgusting.
Speaker 2: Eat it, and like I said, there's if you like
Speaker 2: go back to a lot of movies and shows from
Speaker 2: the eighties and nineties, men doing weird, gross sexual things to.
Speaker 1: Women was a joke.
Speaker 2: And yeah, okay, I am glad that we have And
Speaker 2: in this case, incidentally, I will just say, because I'm
Speaker 2: sure somebody will say this in the comments, he didn't
Speaker 2: just do a sexual gross thing to a woman. He
Speaker 2: did a sexual gross thing to John and to Lend.
Speaker 2: He violently did their prophecy in ways that they were
Speaker 2: not aware.
Speaker 4: Of and consent to and did not did not approve of.
Speaker 2: Yes, no, And I, like I said, it did not
Speaker 2: happen because I liked your car, and so.
Speaker 5: Does it make me less sympathetic in general?
Speaker 4: I don't know.
Speaker 2: But it.
Speaker 1: Didn't happen.
Speaker 2: It just didn't happen. That's all you have to do.
Speaker 2: That is there's certain things in the wheel of time
Speaker 2: that I did that for. You're like, oh, that's the
Speaker 2: thing that just didn't happen.
Speaker 1: There you go, look at that.
Speaker 2: Weird, weird how the paragraph just skips like it just
Speaker 2: jumps from here to year.
Speaker 4: I don't know, I don't know. I don't know.
Speaker 1: Anyway. So that's it, I think though, That is it
Speaker 1: for the for this episode. And next week we will
Speaker 1: do the season finale where the change change. So so yeah,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us.
Speaker 2: If you like this podcast, you probably will like the reaction,
Speaker 2: which is up on YouTube.
Speaker 1: You can check that out.
Speaker 2: You can join our Patreon, you get early access, you
Speaker 2: can get unedited versions of the reactions. You can get
Speaker 2: sometimes some behind the scenes babbling on uh stuff.
Speaker 1: That we do as we are wont to do. And
Speaker 1: you can join the discord and it's super secret because
Speaker 1: there's super secret conversations there and because there's a super
Speaker 1: secret chet for patriots. That's why.
Speaker 2: Anyway, Yeah, I think that's it. Like subscribe, rate review hype.
Speaker 2: I still don't know what hype has, no idea, I
Speaker 2: don't know.
Speaker 1: I'm assuming it's a good thing. So yeah, no idea.
Speaker 1: If it does, do you think, but do it and
Speaker 1: I yeah, we'll see you next time. Bye,