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Each is an 24 00:01:00.399 --> 00:01:02.920 eighting class block. 25 00:01:21.480 --> 00:01:21.920 Good evening. 26 00:01:22.000 --> 00:01:24.920 This is your host Dan Zevaarski for the program True Murder, 27 00:01:25.000 --> 00:01:27.879 the most shocking killers in true crime history and the 28 00:01:27.959 --> 00:01:32.159 authors that have written about them. Final Exams features four 29 00:01:32.280 --> 00:01:37.200 fascinating true crime cases from the files of Cyril H. H. Weckt, 30 00:01:37.480 --> 00:01:42.560 md JD, one of America's most respected forensic pathologists. Co 31 00:01:42.719 --> 00:01:47.480 authored by crime writer Donna Kaufman, Final Exams explores both 32 00:01:47.519 --> 00:01:50.760 the technical and the human side of murder, from the 33 00:01:50.799 --> 00:01:55.640 heartbreaking case of abductive child Jessica Lunsford, held captive within 34 00:01:55.719 --> 00:01:59.000 shouting distance of her loved ones, to the peculiar story 35 00:01:59.079 --> 00:02:01.959 of a murder for hire with a most unlikely victim. 36 00:02:02.599 --> 00:02:06.799 Final Exams takes the reader behind the scenes. Secrets about 37 00:02:06.840 --> 00:02:09.479 the private lives of both predators and victims are revealed 38 00:02:09.639 --> 00:02:14.479 as the authors detail the events that turn rage to tragedy. 39 00:02:15.280 --> 00:02:19.159 Fans of CSI will appreciate how Weckt and Kaufman share 40 00:02:19.199 --> 00:02:22.840 the real life process of solving crimes with clues left 41 00:02:22.879 --> 00:02:25.039 with the victim. The book that we are featuring this 42 00:02:25.159 --> 00:02:28.520 evening is Final Exams. With my special guest, doctor Cyril 43 00:02:28.599 --> 00:02:33.680 Weckt and Donna Kaufman. Welcome to the program, Donna Kaufman 44 00:02:33.919 --> 00:02:39.199 and doctor Weckt. Thank you very much for meet this interview. 45 00:02:40.639 --> 00:02:47.080 K Now, before we start it, I think it's fascinating 46 00:02:47.199 --> 00:02:50.759 the background of both of you, people that got together 47 00:02:51.439 --> 00:02:54.840 three books ago. This is your third collaboration. Tell us 48 00:02:55.000 --> 00:02:59.759 about your illustrious and very important background, doctor weck and 49 00:02:59.800 --> 00:03:02.840 then we'll ask for Donna Kauflin's background, and then we'll 50 00:03:02.879 --> 00:03:06.000 ask how you came to collaborate together. So if you 51 00:03:06.080 --> 00:03:10.960 could give us some of the important background of yourself, 52 00:03:11.039 --> 00:03:11.719 doctor Weckt. 53 00:03:12.520 --> 00:03:15.639 Well, I grew up in the Pittsburgh area and they 54 00:03:15.719 --> 00:03:19.240 went to college here in medical school. First couple of 55 00:03:19.319 --> 00:03:21.599 years the University of Buffalo, then finished up at pitt 56 00:03:21.680 --> 00:03:25.680 Med School, internship, a couple of years residency at the 57 00:03:25.759 --> 00:03:29.639 University VA Hospital. Then two years of residency, I was 58 00:03:29.680 --> 00:03:33.360 a captain of the United States Air Force in Montgomery, 59 00:03:33.400 --> 00:03:36.240 Alabama at Maxwell Air Force Base Hospital. Then when I 60 00:03:36.319 --> 00:03:41.280 got out, I did my fellowship as a research fellow 61 00:03:41.400 --> 00:03:44.680 in forends of Pathology and associate pathologist in the Office 62 00:03:44.719 --> 00:03:47.280 of the Chief Federical Exambitor of Maryland. I had also 63 00:03:47.400 --> 00:03:50.000 gone to law school at pitt for a couple of 64 00:03:50.080 --> 00:03:53.360 years while I was in my residency before the Air Force, 65 00:03:53.719 --> 00:03:55.919 and then I finished my third year when I got 66 00:03:55.960 --> 00:03:58.000 out of the Air Force at the University of Maryland. 67 00:03:58.319 --> 00:04:01.080 In the evening while I was doing my fellowship, I 68 00:04:01.199 --> 00:04:04.400 came back to Pittsburgh. I've met my wife in the 69 00:04:04.479 --> 00:04:08.599 Air Force and we married that fall and we've been 70 00:04:08.680 --> 00:04:13.639 here ever since. I have been working as a friends 71 00:04:13.680 --> 00:04:17.079 of pathologists and as a hospital pathologist. I have a 72 00:04:17.199 --> 00:04:20.360 private apology laboratory for a while, and I've been doing 73 00:04:20.399 --> 00:04:24.120 medical legal consultations now for about fifty years for attorneys 74 00:04:24.319 --> 00:04:29.439 all over the country, several and criminal cases workers compensation, murder, 75 00:04:29.600 --> 00:04:34.040 medical law, practice wrong for their personal injury, product liability, rape, 76 00:04:34.120 --> 00:04:38.439 sexual assault, the drug abuse and so on. And I've 77 00:04:38.480 --> 00:04:41.600 had the opportunity to work on some very interesting cases 78 00:04:42.040 --> 00:04:45.720 in a few foreign countries around the world, and I've 79 00:04:45.759 --> 00:04:52.879 testified in some foreign countries too. I have gotten involved 80 00:04:53.639 --> 00:04:57.839 academically over the years too, and I have adjunct to 81 00:04:57.959 --> 00:05:03.519 clinical professorships schools at the Duking University, at two schools 82 00:05:04.399 --> 00:05:09.639 at the University of Pittsburgh and then also distinguished professor 83 00:05:09.720 --> 00:05:14.000 at Carly University here in Pittsburgh. I have some adjunct 84 00:05:14.040 --> 00:05:19.839 of clinical professorships at medical schools in Arizona and Georgia 85 00:05:20.240 --> 00:05:25.160 and Nigeria. I met the Donna some years ago, she'll 86 00:05:25.240 --> 00:05:28.519 remember more vividly than I let her talk about that, 87 00:05:29.199 --> 00:05:34.759 and we became as we are now, very good personal 88 00:05:34.839 --> 00:05:37.560 friends as well as people who like to work with 89 00:05:37.720 --> 00:05:40.920 each other and spend a lot of time talking, mostly 90 00:05:41.000 --> 00:05:44.959 by phone because we're such a great distance away, but 91 00:05:45.959 --> 00:05:49.959 we have developed a great report. So that's the story 92 00:05:50.000 --> 00:05:53.480 of my background here. I've lived in Pittsburgh, have had 93 00:05:53.519 --> 00:05:58.040 four wonderful little children, married, and fortunately for my wife 94 00:05:58.079 --> 00:06:00.560 and me, they are here in the pit Burg area 95 00:06:00.600 --> 00:06:06.879 with eleven grandchildren. So that's see, that's my background in 96 00:06:07.040 --> 00:06:09.959 a nutshell. I've done a lot of writing. I've about 97 00:06:10.240 --> 00:06:16.800 five hundred and seventy published articles, chapters, and books, and 98 00:06:16.959 --> 00:06:21.199 about I think about forty four or so books of 99 00:06:21.279 --> 00:06:23.879 which I'm the editor or co editor, author or co 100 00:06:24.040 --> 00:06:27.000 author of in the professional field, and then eight books 101 00:06:27.560 --> 00:06:30.879 for the general public. Of the last three as you mentioned, 102 00:06:31.360 --> 00:06:34.639 with Donna Kaufman as my co author, and five previously 103 00:06:34.839 --> 00:06:38.040 with some other very fine writers who were my co 104 00:06:38.240 --> 00:06:42.839 authors too, and we're working on another book to be 105 00:06:42.920 --> 00:06:47.439 published next year. But right now we're enjoying the talking 106 00:06:47.519 --> 00:06:50.879 about Final Exams, which is a book that Donna will 107 00:06:51.120 --> 00:06:55.079 talk more about and tell your listeners on how they 108 00:06:55.160 --> 00:06:57.399 can gain access to this keybook. 109 00:07:00.000 --> 00:07:03.759 Thank you very much. In your background, Donna, and how 110 00:07:03.839 --> 00:07:08.319 you came to collaborate with doctor Wecht, well, let me. 111 00:07:08.399 --> 00:07:12.000 Just add about him. He makes everyone seem like they're 112 00:07:12.040 --> 00:07:16.199 standing still. He just accomplishes so much in a day 113 00:07:16.319 --> 00:07:21.240 it's pathetic for the rest of us. He has performed 114 00:07:21.800 --> 00:07:27.480 personally performed eighteen thousand autopsies, sometimes two three a day 115 00:07:27.759 --> 00:07:31.360 sometimes you know, it is just a staggering amount. And 116 00:07:31.480 --> 00:07:36.600 he's consulted worldwide on another thirty six thousand cases. So 117 00:07:36.720 --> 00:07:39.680 when it comes to choosing, Oh and by the way, 118 00:07:39.759 --> 00:07:42.600 he has two buildings named after him in his hometown 119 00:07:42.680 --> 00:07:47.720 of Pittsburgh, which is pretty amazing. So when it comes 120 00:07:47.720 --> 00:07:53.040 to choosing cases, I have that job and I can 121 00:07:53.160 --> 00:07:58.959 choose from the very best, juiciest, most interesting cases from 122 00:07:59.000 --> 00:08:03.240 a forensical lea medical point of view. I asked my background, 123 00:08:03.360 --> 00:08:07.759 I'm a comedy writer, which you go, well, what is that, 124 00:08:08.680 --> 00:08:12.879 but it's actually all research. And I have a lot 125 00:08:12.920 --> 00:08:16.319 of television credits as a producer and television writer on 126 00:08:16.959 --> 00:08:20.879 comedy series, variety shows. And at a certain point, I 127 00:08:21.040 --> 00:08:25.360 just said, I need something more substantial than this silliness 128 00:08:25.480 --> 00:08:28.680 I'm involved in, and I decided, well, I was going 129 00:08:28.800 --> 00:08:33.960 to embrace true crime, and you could say I did. 130 00:08:34.120 --> 00:08:39.279 Since then, I've written thousands of articles, these books, and 131 00:08:40.240 --> 00:08:43.240 I've worked on every high profile case of our time 132 00:08:44.120 --> 00:08:51.960 that involves a high profile homicide, kidnapping, child abuse, child 133 00:08:52.360 --> 00:08:57.440 murder case kind of my specialty. And you know, I 134 00:08:57.759 --> 00:09:01.960 attend the trials. I get very rap up in the investigations, 135 00:09:02.440 --> 00:09:06.480 and with doctor Wett, I can fill in a lot 136 00:09:06.600 --> 00:09:11.600 of the material after he gives me his medical and 137 00:09:11.840 --> 00:09:14.960 legal opinions on these cases that he has worked on, 138 00:09:15.519 --> 00:09:21.360 some of which I have also written independently. I fill 139 00:09:21.440 --> 00:09:24.120 in the backgrounds of who the people are and what 140 00:09:24.279 --> 00:09:28.639 their families go through, and what their what the essence 141 00:09:28.720 --> 00:09:32.120 of the trial, and who the individuals are. So I 142 00:09:32.159 --> 00:09:34.320 think we make a really good combination there. 143 00:09:37.559 --> 00:09:42.399 Now you've picked four stories in this particular book, and 144 00:09:42.519 --> 00:09:45.960 I asked you this question before in our in our 145 00:09:46.000 --> 00:09:49.000 previous interview, which just was a mess. So we rescheduleed that. 146 00:09:49.159 --> 00:09:55.360 But I asked that question again, what was the criteria, Yes, exactly, 147 00:09:56.080 --> 00:09:59.600 what was the reason, what was the criteria for the 148 00:10:00.080 --> 00:10:02.399 picking of these four stories, and what did you want 149 00:10:02.480 --> 00:10:07.360 to demonstrate most with the telling of these four stories. 150 00:10:08.799 --> 00:10:14.840 Well, doctor wet works on both prosecution cases and defense cases, 151 00:10:15.519 --> 00:10:20.639 and sometimes the investigations do not go to trial, and 152 00:10:20.759 --> 00:10:25.559 sometimes they go to civil court, and sometimes there are retrials. 153 00:10:25.600 --> 00:10:28.159 I mean, there are interesting issues on all of them. 154 00:10:28.600 --> 00:10:32.000 So when I have to consider which are the stories 155 00:10:32.080 --> 00:10:35.279 I want to tell, I try to pick those that 156 00:10:35.600 --> 00:10:41.559 have some prosecution, some defense, some ongoing issues in the 157 00:10:41.720 --> 00:10:44.919 court of law, and things that just didn't make it 158 00:10:45.039 --> 00:10:50.159 to a jury that we are upset about or we're 159 00:10:50.240 --> 00:10:53.519 happy about. You know, his testimony can put somebody on 160 00:10:53.639 --> 00:10:56.399 death row, which we have here in the States, not 161 00:10:56.559 --> 00:10:59.120 that we like that, or he can take somebody off 162 00:10:59.279 --> 00:11:03.600 death row. So the power of what he does on 163 00:11:03.679 --> 00:11:06.799 a day to day basis is just phenomenal. So these 164 00:11:06.879 --> 00:11:12.120 four cases, two of them are from Pittsburgh, the Pittsburgh 165 00:11:12.200 --> 00:11:16.120 area and where he did perform the autopsies, and one 166 00:11:16.240 --> 00:11:18.799 is from New York City, and one is from Florida. 167 00:11:19.000 --> 00:11:22.320 So we also try to have different means and motives 168 00:11:23.279 --> 00:11:28.039 and manners of death and causes of death and sets 169 00:11:28.080 --> 00:11:32.440 of circumstances. So that's how we pick them. And thank 170 00:11:32.519 --> 00:11:33.519 you for reading the book. 171 00:11:34.679 --> 00:11:37.799 Well, thank you for providing the book for me as 172 00:11:37.840 --> 00:11:42.360 this fascinating read. Now, part of this uniqueness of this 173 00:11:42.519 --> 00:11:45.399 book is that as much as I am a fan 174 00:11:45.480 --> 00:11:48.279 of CSI and as much as I've read so many 175 00:11:48.440 --> 00:11:51.399 true crime books in preparation for this program and to 176 00:11:51.679 --> 00:11:55.799 interview authors, but I have never read the actual, the 177 00:11:56.000 --> 00:12:02.039 true account of what a ENSEI pathologist does, a medical 178 00:12:02.120 --> 00:12:07.840 examiner does. Your role, doctor Weck, you've described in this 179 00:12:08.000 --> 00:12:12.440 book in great detail, very very fascinating what exactly you 180 00:12:13.120 --> 00:12:16.320 do in terms of that autopsy and what you can 181 00:12:16.399 --> 00:12:20.200 provide to authorities later in terms of crucial evidence. So 182 00:12:20.279 --> 00:12:23.240 if you could briefly just tell us what is it 183 00:12:23.559 --> 00:12:27.159 that you look for and what can you find during 184 00:12:27.360 --> 00:12:33.000 an autopsy that you've performed thousands and thousands of tell 185 00:12:33.080 --> 00:12:37.720 us about the procedure of the actual autopsy for us, please. 186 00:12:39.120 --> 00:12:43.279 A forensic pathologist is, of course a medical doctor, and 187 00:12:43.399 --> 00:12:47.480 then following the four or five years of basic pathology training, 188 00:12:47.960 --> 00:12:53.080 in anatomic and trinically to main divisions working with tissues 189 00:12:53.840 --> 00:13:00.519 surgically remote specimens in clinical pathology, blood, zerology, transfusions, chemistry, doctorology, 190 00:13:00.639 --> 00:13:04.639 et cetera. Then Fends of Apology is has been since 191 00:13:04.720 --> 00:13:10.720 nineteen fifty nine a formerly recognized subspecially requiring additional training 192 00:13:11.039 --> 00:13:14.240 and then certification by the American Board of Pathology and 193 00:13:14.360 --> 00:13:18.159 National examination given to women and men who complete that training. 194 00:13:18.399 --> 00:13:22.360 Forends of Apologists for the most part work in or 195 00:13:22.519 --> 00:13:27.159 four corner and medical examiner's offices, liked all medical specialties. 196 00:13:27.440 --> 00:13:31.600 Of course, there's private work consultations which I do, writing 197 00:13:31.720 --> 00:13:36.759 and teaching and so on. But most people think of 198 00:13:37.240 --> 00:13:40.519 the fends of Capologists within the context of an official 199 00:13:40.559 --> 00:13:44.519 governmental medical legal investigative office, that is, a medical examiner 200 00:13:44.639 --> 00:13:47.000 or corner, And in fact I have been corner of 201 00:13:47.080 --> 00:13:50.480 Alleghany County, Pittsburgh and Sourronal ammunities for twenty years, two 202 00:13:50.559 --> 00:13:53.480 separate ten year terms, four years before that as chief 203 00:13:53.519 --> 00:13:56.320 Forends of Capologists, and even a year and a half 204 00:13:56.399 --> 00:13:59.279 before that as an assystem oftic attorney, a medical legal 205 00:13:59.360 --> 00:14:02.879 advisor to the District Attorney of Allegheny County in addition 206 00:14:03.120 --> 00:14:06.720 to my role as corner of Allegheny County going back 207 00:14:06.759 --> 00:14:09.399 to the late sixties and continuing to the present time. 208 00:14:09.919 --> 00:14:15.720 So what's that that's forty five years almost. I have 209 00:14:15.879 --> 00:14:21.159 been also doing the autopsies for corners and district attorneys 210 00:14:21.480 --> 00:14:25.120 in several surrounding counties, which I continue to do, the 211 00:14:25.240 --> 00:14:28.840 last two such autopsies having been performed about five hours 212 00:14:28.919 --> 00:14:32.399 ago today. Donna mentioned you might have two or three 213 00:14:33.039 --> 00:14:35.919 last week. I did six one day. Then there's some 214 00:14:36.120 --> 00:14:38.799 days of course, so you don't have any that varies 215 00:14:39.480 --> 00:14:42.919 because needless to say, they're not schedule of like patients 216 00:14:43.000 --> 00:14:47.039 and schedule appointments with doctors. But I'm on I did 217 00:14:47.200 --> 00:14:52.360 number three hundred and fifty five today I shall reach 218 00:14:52.440 --> 00:14:56.279 about four hundred, which is a lot more than any 219 00:14:56.519 --> 00:14:59.519 fronts of caropologists to my knowledge. I shouldn't say any, 220 00:15:00.240 --> 00:15:04.919 just say almost all. There's always some exceptions do on 221 00:15:05.000 --> 00:15:08.080 a full time basis who do nothing else but work 222 00:15:08.759 --> 00:15:11.480 as a full time friends of pathologist in a corner 223 00:15:11.519 --> 00:15:15.159 of medical Examiner's office. The National Association of Medical Examiners, 224 00:15:15.399 --> 00:15:22.639 the quasi professional group recognizing and dealing with Emmys and corners. 225 00:15:22.679 --> 00:15:25.600 Friends of Pathologists and so on. They recommend two hundred 226 00:15:25.600 --> 00:15:27.799 and fifty maybe three hundred a year. So that just 227 00:15:27.879 --> 00:15:31.039 gives you an idea of what I do and what 228 00:15:31.159 --> 00:15:33.159 I'm continuing to do, and so far as how I 229 00:15:33.279 --> 00:15:35.480 do it, I want to do. Bodies are then brought 230 00:15:35.519 --> 00:15:37.799 to me. We have a laboratory set up at Carly 231 00:15:37.960 --> 00:15:41.960 University where I established a teaching program for these young women. 232 00:15:42.519 --> 00:15:45.720 It's a Catholic, well it's Catholic as co ed, but 233 00:15:46.200 --> 00:15:48.799 I don't see many men around still, mostly young women. 234 00:15:49.159 --> 00:15:52.240 And this program has been in existence since twenty oh two. 235 00:15:52.600 --> 00:15:55.759 These young ladies learning forensic science, they learn how to 236 00:15:55.799 --> 00:15:58.480 do autopsies. They just love it. Of course, that's not 237 00:15:58.600 --> 00:16:01.559 the endpoint in our eyes, and we encourage them very 238 00:16:01.639 --> 00:16:04.159 much to go on to medical school to do graduate 239 00:16:04.240 --> 00:16:07.559 work in other fields of forensic science, helps related fields, 240 00:16:07.799 --> 00:16:11.559 et cetera. So the bodies are brought to me, mostly 241 00:16:11.720 --> 00:16:15.159 cornered district attorney's cases, and then I do private autopsies 242 00:16:15.200 --> 00:16:18.559 for families and then maybe looking for medical malpractice. They 243 00:16:18.600 --> 00:16:21.440 may be second autopsies in cases where someone who is 244 00:16:21.519 --> 00:16:24.120 in charge with homicide or so on. And I have 245 00:16:24.240 --> 00:16:27.559 bodies that are flown to me not every day or 246 00:16:27.600 --> 00:16:29.679 every week, but the bodies in the course of a year. 247 00:16:30.039 --> 00:16:33.960 They might be California, might be Florida. Mostly of course, 248 00:16:34.000 --> 00:16:38.240 they're driven from different places in Pennsylvania, Ohio, and then 249 00:16:38.320 --> 00:16:42.080 so on. But the bodies have brought to me some 250 00:16:42.679 --> 00:16:49.399 maybe about five percent of my total number. The bodies 251 00:16:49.440 --> 00:16:53.000 are brought in. And then, depending upon the case, you 252 00:16:53.279 --> 00:16:58.320 do your photography. You collect materials. If it's a suspected 253 00:16:58.480 --> 00:17:01.759 known and lash murder and you want to collect hair, 254 00:17:02.200 --> 00:17:09.559 fingernail scrape things, you collect things on the clothing. All 255 00:17:09.680 --> 00:17:13.160 the time these things are being photographed. I State Police or. 256 00:17:13.440 --> 00:17:16.240 Wait, the Lucky land Slots. You can get lucky just 257 00:17:16.319 --> 00:17:17.119 about anywhere. 258 00:17:18.079 --> 00:17:20.920 It's your captain speaking. We've got clear runway and the 259 00:17:20.960 --> 00:17:22.839 weather's fine, but we're just gonna circle up here a 260 00:17:22.920 --> 00:17:26.200 while and get lucky. No, no, nothing like that. It's 261 00:17:26.279 --> 00:17:28.839 just these cash prizes add up quick. 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For example, if it's a 282 00:18:26.559 --> 00:18:29.799 fire case, you want to do squabs to make sure 283 00:18:29.839 --> 00:18:33.680 you're not missing anything in a way of chemical accelerants 284 00:18:33.720 --> 00:18:37.079 and things of that nature. Then when all of that 285 00:18:37.200 --> 00:18:40.200 has been finished, there are two basic incisions that are performed. 286 00:18:40.400 --> 00:18:42.440 One is over the top of the head from behind 287 00:18:42.799 --> 00:18:45.640 one ear to the other. The scalp is reflected. The 288 00:18:45.759 --> 00:18:48.920 top of the scalp is removed by means of electric sauce, 289 00:18:49.240 --> 00:18:52.400 and you have access to the brain, the twelve cranial nerves, 290 00:18:52.720 --> 00:18:57.079 all the arteries and veins, and surrounding structures within the 291 00:18:57.160 --> 00:19:00.480 cranial vault. The brain is then removed and the examined, 292 00:19:01.079 --> 00:19:03.759 except in some cases where you fix it and formula 293 00:19:04.640 --> 00:19:07.240 for two weeks in order for it to develop a 294 00:19:07.319 --> 00:19:13.559 more firm consistency and permit examination in a more meticulous fashion. 295 00:19:13.640 --> 00:19:17.599 That's especially true if you have a brain has been traumatized, 296 00:19:17.640 --> 00:19:20.559 like gunshot wounds or things of that nature. Then the 297 00:19:20.960 --> 00:19:23.720 second incision is a y shaped incision in the front 298 00:19:23.720 --> 00:19:25.799 of the body. You start at the enter your crest 299 00:19:25.839 --> 00:19:28.720 of each shoulder, and you move diagonally downward to the 300 00:19:28.759 --> 00:19:30.880 bottom of the stern and the breastplate, and then a 301 00:19:30.920 --> 00:19:34.240 straight line continuing over the abuvent. Then you reflect the 302 00:19:34.319 --> 00:19:37.440 skin subcontain these fat and muscles. You lay them back, 303 00:19:37.880 --> 00:19:41.839 and you remove the breastplate, and you have access to 304 00:19:42.000 --> 00:19:45.680 all the organs and tissues in the Thorassic, the chess 305 00:19:45.720 --> 00:19:49.400 cavities and the abnominal and pelvic cavities. You look at 306 00:19:49.440 --> 00:19:53.480 the organs and tissues in place. You take pictures as 307 00:19:53.599 --> 00:19:57.720 are needed and are relevant, and then you begin to 308 00:19:57.839 --> 00:20:01.839 remove the organs and tissues. Before you do that, you 309 00:20:02.119 --> 00:20:07.759 get your specimens for toxicology blood bile, bil from the gallbladder, urine, 310 00:20:08.240 --> 00:20:12.440 and then sometimes we all also collect pieces of solid organs, 311 00:20:12.640 --> 00:20:16.480 sometimes fluid from behind the eye vitreous humor, and sometimes 312 00:20:16.519 --> 00:20:20.279 spinal fluid because those two fluids are kind of sequestered 313 00:20:20.640 --> 00:20:23.720 and they give more valid chemical results. But then it 314 00:20:23.880 --> 00:20:27.960 does blood in certain cases. So the organs are taken out, 315 00:20:28.400 --> 00:20:34.160 they're examined and palpated, weighed, measured, and then serially sectioned 316 00:20:34.480 --> 00:20:40.000 to see what disease processes, abnormalities are present, et cetera. 317 00:20:40.519 --> 00:20:43.720 And you know, depending on the case. Last week got 318 00:20:43.759 --> 00:20:47.480 a double homicide suicide. The two homicide victims were shot 319 00:20:48.279 --> 00:20:51.160 each as I recall, six times. We had to trace 320 00:20:51.319 --> 00:20:53.880 each bullet from its entrance to its exit. We had 321 00:20:53.960 --> 00:20:57.160 to find the bullets, and when they're twenty two caliber, 322 00:20:57.319 --> 00:21:01.400 they're just small pieces of metal, easily found even with 323 00:21:01.640 --> 00:21:07.079 X rays, and you know, that's a different kind of 324 00:21:07.119 --> 00:21:11.160 a ballgame. But you do all those things and then 325 00:21:11.720 --> 00:21:15.880 you submit the specimens to toxicology laboratory. I'm not a 326 00:21:15.960 --> 00:21:20.440 toxicologist I interpret the results and correlate them with my findings. 327 00:21:20.480 --> 00:21:23.559 But the tests are done by a toxicology lab and 328 00:21:23.680 --> 00:21:27.079 then tissues are submitted for microscopic exam, just like in 329 00:21:27.119 --> 00:21:30.160 a hospital, as somebody's lung cancer or gallbladder or appendix 330 00:21:30.680 --> 00:21:34.240 or stomach als are submitted to the pathologists for examination. 331 00:21:34.640 --> 00:21:38.279 So is that what we do with our cases? And 332 00:21:38.359 --> 00:21:40.880 then the slides come back to me. I studied the microscopically. 333 00:21:41.200 --> 00:21:44.839 Toxicology results come back to me. Criminalistics reports may come 334 00:21:44.880 --> 00:21:48.240 back to me from the state police crime lab with 335 00:21:48.400 --> 00:21:52.480 such things as ballistic studies on the weapon, the bullets, 336 00:21:53.640 --> 00:21:58.880 the knife, and other things in DNA, etc. All of 337 00:21:58.920 --> 00:22:02.440 that is then put together by the forensic apologists and 338 00:22:02.599 --> 00:22:05.400 in this case me, But this friends of capologies is 339 00:22:05.519 --> 00:22:09.839 the person to whom everything comes back and is then 340 00:22:09.960 --> 00:22:13.319 put together in structured fashion so that the cause of 341 00:22:13.440 --> 00:22:15.839 death and the manner of death and the mechanism of 342 00:22:15.880 --> 00:22:21.240 death can be officially determined and then ruled upon. So 343 00:22:21.440 --> 00:22:23.880 that's the way a friends of apologist functions. And then 344 00:22:23.920 --> 00:22:27.279 of course you follow through as necessary when it's time 345 00:22:27.359 --> 00:22:32.279 to testify. In the cases in which I do autopsies 346 00:22:32.319 --> 00:22:34.759 for corners and matter of gammers. I'm going to be called, 347 00:22:35.319 --> 00:22:37.640 I'm sorry, district attorneys. I'm going to be called as 348 00:22:37.680 --> 00:22:41.680 a witness for the prosecution cases that I do privately 349 00:22:42.160 --> 00:22:45.559 and in consultation. I'm a witness for the defense in 350 00:22:45.720 --> 00:22:48.440 civil cases. It might be plainted, it might be defense, 351 00:22:49.319 --> 00:22:53.119 and so on. You coal miners autopsies for people looking 352 00:22:53.200 --> 00:22:58.000 for black lung asbestosis, mesophilioma, people have been exposed to asbestos, 353 00:22:59.039 --> 00:23:04.759 and so on. That's what a forensic pathologist does. Thank you. 354 00:23:05.920 --> 00:23:09.440 Now, Donna, let us take a look at these four 355 00:23:09.559 --> 00:23:15.400 stories and tell us, like you had mentioned, the you 356 00:23:15.839 --> 00:23:19.960 essentially and instinctively, no, a story has those elements that 357 00:23:20.079 --> 00:23:22.400 will appeal to a lot of people. Let's start with 358 00:23:22.559 --> 00:23:26.039 one of those stories, very heart wrenching story, and you 359 00:23:26.119 --> 00:23:29.920 can tell us basically the outline of the story, and 360 00:23:30.000 --> 00:23:32.799 then we'll get doctor Weck to tell us his role 361 00:23:33.440 --> 00:23:36.359 in this particular case. So let's start off with I 362 00:23:36.480 --> 00:23:38.960 think one of the most heart wrenching stories I've ever read, 363 00:23:39.359 --> 00:23:43.640 and that being Jessica Marie Lunsford. So tell us the 364 00:23:43.759 --> 00:23:46.880 outline of this heart wrenching story, Donna. 365 00:23:47.119 --> 00:23:50.920 Okay, this is one that we both worked on independently. 366 00:23:51.200 --> 00:23:55.000 In fact, I brought doctor West into the case. We 367 00:23:55.200 --> 00:23:58.519 call this chapter the Girl in the Pink Hat because 368 00:23:58.599 --> 00:24:02.000 there are photos that people well remember of nine year 369 00:24:02.039 --> 00:24:06.480 old Florida girl Jessica Lansford when people were looking for her, 370 00:24:07.599 --> 00:24:10.440 which showed her wearing this beautiful pink hat that she 371 00:24:10.880 --> 00:24:15.480 got the previous week at the state fair. Jessica was 372 00:24:15.599 --> 00:24:20.599 asleep in her bedroom and her dad came home that 373 00:24:20.799 --> 00:24:25.880 morning and saw that she wasn't in her bed. And 374 00:24:26.319 --> 00:24:30.359 he lived in a trailer with his parents and Jessica 375 00:24:30.440 --> 00:24:33.920 and the family dog, and he woke up their parents 376 00:24:33.960 --> 00:24:36.440 and said, where is she? And they said, wait to 377 00:24:36.519 --> 00:24:39.599 hear We don't know. You know, the dog didn't bark 378 00:24:40.160 --> 00:24:43.440 what happened? So they looked around, they couldn't find her, 379 00:24:44.319 --> 00:24:48.079 and all of a sudden it went on. It went 380 00:24:48.160 --> 00:24:52.319 on the news, and people began searching for Jessica. The 381 00:24:53.279 --> 00:24:57.160 Homo sassa police or the sheriff decided to make him 382 00:24:57.680 --> 00:25:01.079 the chief suspect, which is understand well, because you always 383 00:25:01.160 --> 00:25:06.839 investigate from the center outward, but they never went outward. Well, 384 00:25:06.839 --> 00:25:09.880 it turns out that she had been stolen from her bed, 385 00:25:10.079 --> 00:25:14.799 not by her father or grandfather, but by a predator 386 00:25:15.000 --> 00:25:18.920 who lived across the street in another trailer, and that 387 00:25:19.039 --> 00:25:24.039 guy brought her over to his trailer which was filled 388 00:25:24.119 --> 00:25:30.039 with his drug idled relatives and raper and she died. 389 00:25:30.759 --> 00:25:35.640 And she died because he buried her alive on the property. 390 00:25:36.400 --> 00:25:39.279 So everyone knows that I'm not giving away anything that 391 00:25:39.400 --> 00:25:41.759 people don't know. But what they're not going to know 392 00:25:42.880 --> 00:25:46.519 because of our unique perspective on this case, is what 393 00:25:46.799 --> 00:25:53.400 happened inside that investigation. And it will just it will 394 00:25:53.519 --> 00:25:58.839 anger people to see what happened. It'll baffle them about 395 00:25:58.960 --> 00:26:04.000 why this wasn't investigated better. And I could see from 396 00:26:04.119 --> 00:26:08.119 my forensic background, I could see that there were mistakes 397 00:26:08.160 --> 00:26:11.240 made in this case. So I brought doctor Wett in 398 00:26:11.720 --> 00:26:14.839 and contacted an attorney and said, do you need some 399 00:26:15.000 --> 00:26:18.359 help on this to file a civil case? And he 400 00:26:18.480 --> 00:26:21.000 said yes, And I said, I think I know the 401 00:26:21.119 --> 00:26:24.559