WEBVTT 1 00:00:20.120 --> 00:00:24.280 Hello, and welcome to Western SIV. In today's Bonus Author Interview, 2 00:00:24.359 --> 00:00:26.800 I sit down with historian John Bicknell, and I talk 3 00:00:26.839 --> 00:00:30.719 about his most recent book, The Pathfinder and the President, 4 00:00:31.199 --> 00:00:35.479 John C. Fremont, Abraham Lincoln and the Battle for Emancipation. 5 00:00:36.399 --> 00:00:38.119 I know a lot of you listening out there are 6 00:00:38.240 --> 00:00:41.119 American Civil War fans, because there are still plenty of 7 00:00:41.159 --> 00:00:41.799 those out there. 8 00:00:41.880 --> 00:00:43.840 I'm one of them. But John C. 9 00:00:43.960 --> 00:00:46.000 Fremont was one of those figures that I just didn't 10 00:00:46.079 --> 00:00:49.520 know very much about going into this interview, and so 11 00:00:49.560 --> 00:00:51.439 I was really excited to pick this book up and 12 00:00:51.920 --> 00:00:53.840 give it a read and learn a little bit more 13 00:00:53.880 --> 00:00:58.000 about these two fascinating individuals, one Lincoln that I and 14 00:00:58.159 --> 00:01:01.600 probably you know a lot about, and one Fremont that 15 00:01:01.719 --> 00:01:03.600 I and probably you don't know. 16 00:01:03.560 --> 00:01:04.239 As much about. 17 00:01:05.079 --> 00:01:07.599 And I found it fascinating because the way that they 18 00:01:07.719 --> 00:01:10.599 interacted with one another and the way that Fremont pushes 19 00:01:10.680 --> 00:01:16.640 forward Lincoln's agenda, particularly on emancipation from military standpoints, is 20 00:01:16.959 --> 00:01:19.280 a really interesting read and something that I think puts 21 00:01:19.319 --> 00:01:22.040 a little bit of a spin on the term that 22 00:01:22.079 --> 00:01:25.159 we bandy about a lot for Lincoln, which is the 23 00:01:25.239 --> 00:01:29.680 great emancipator. If he's the great emancipator, then John C. Freeman, 24 00:01:29.799 --> 00:01:33.319 it is probably the great emancipator pusher. All right, So 25 00:01:34.239 --> 00:01:36.439 if you're listening to this, the book is available right now, 26 00:01:36.480 --> 00:01:38.040 you can pick it up. I've got a link in 27 00:01:38.079 --> 00:01:41.359 the show notes if you're interested. And so without further ado, 28 00:01:41.400 --> 00:01:43.879 after these quick messages, we'll hear the. 29 00:01:43.760 --> 00:02:08.199 Interview and welcome back. 30 00:02:08.240 --> 00:02:12.120 As I mentioned previously, I am sitting down today with 31 00:02:12.280 --> 00:02:15.560 historian John Bicknell. We're talking about his most recent book, 32 00:02:15.599 --> 00:02:20.319 The Pathfinder and the President, John C. Fremont, Abraham Lincoln 33 00:02:20.360 --> 00:02:26.319 and the Battle for Emancipation. Like many of you, I'm 34 00:02:26.360 --> 00:02:29.039 a lot more familiar with Abraham Lincoln than I am 35 00:02:29.080 --> 00:02:31.360 with John C. Fremont, and that's one of the reasons 36 00:02:31.360 --> 00:02:36.039 that I found reading this book so fascinating. And I 37 00:02:36.120 --> 00:02:38.800 kind of want to start here by I've got a 38 00:02:38.840 --> 00:02:40.840 section of the book in the very very beginning in 39 00:02:40.879 --> 00:02:43.759 the introduction here, just kind of reading for a moment, 40 00:02:44.039 --> 00:02:47.520 just quoting your book, it says, quote, history is rarely 41 00:02:47.680 --> 00:02:51.120 kind to losers, and the Civil War was especially unkind 42 00:02:51.439 --> 00:02:55.120 to John C. Fremont. From eighteen sixty one to eighteen 43 00:02:55.240 --> 00:02:59.680 sixty five, Fremont lost two military commands, the only major 44 00:02:59.680 --> 00:03:03.199 battle in which he fought a presidential campaign, a good 45 00:03:03.240 --> 00:03:06.319 chunk of his fortune, his home, and much of the 46 00:03:06.400 --> 00:03:09.840 renown he had accumulated over the previous twenty years that 47 00:03:09.960 --> 00:03:12.520 made him one of the most famous men. 48 00:03:12.719 --> 00:03:15.120 In the world. End quote. 49 00:03:15.360 --> 00:03:19.759 So this is a really really interesting book. But I 50 00:03:19.919 --> 00:03:24.840 wanted to start because you do talk about their personalities, 51 00:03:25.639 --> 00:03:27.599 and I want to start by asking you a little 52 00:03:27.599 --> 00:03:32.360 bit about the personalities of John Fremont and Abraham Lincoln 53 00:03:32.840 --> 00:03:36.960 and how their personalities play such a key role in 54 00:03:37.000 --> 00:03:40.159 the events that you explore in the book in general, 55 00:03:40.599 --> 00:03:42.360 and then I want to come back to this question 56 00:03:42.680 --> 00:03:45.319 of historical losers in a moment. 57 00:03:45.960 --> 00:03:52.759 Okay, sure, thanks for having me on. First, Lincoln and 58 00:03:52.800 --> 00:03:56.520 Fremont came from similar backgrounds. They were both born in 59 00:03:56.560 --> 00:03:59.759 the South, of course, Lincoln and Kentucky, Fremont in some 60 00:04:00.199 --> 00:04:07.719 of Georgia. Fremont also went to college in Charleston. They 61 00:04:07.759 --> 00:04:11.840 both came from sort of straightened circumstances. As young men, 62 00:04:11.879 --> 00:04:16.399 they were not very well off, and they both moved 63 00:04:16.439 --> 00:04:23.560 to the West to become well known, become famous. So 64 00:04:23.680 --> 00:04:27.319 they shared some circumstances in life. They were both married 65 00:04:27.360 --> 00:04:35.240 to very assertive, politically minded women, and their wives were 66 00:04:35.279 --> 00:04:38.480 both in a way well certainly, certainly Fremont's wife was 67 00:04:38.519 --> 00:04:42.839 more politically astute than he was, but they they diverged 68 00:04:43.759 --> 00:04:48.439 in their personalities. Lincoln became a lawyer, had a very 69 00:04:48.519 --> 00:04:54.480 lawyerly mind, very methodical, devoted to the Constitution and the 70 00:04:54.560 --> 00:04:58.319 rule of law. Fremont wasn't like that. Fremont joined the 71 00:04:58.839 --> 00:05:04.439 Army topographical engine years he became a western explorer. That's 72 00:05:04.480 --> 00:05:06.720 where he gained his fame, but it's also where he 73 00:05:07.000 --> 00:05:12.199 learned to conquer the elements through his own resources and 74 00:05:12.680 --> 00:05:15.879 sort of ignore the chain of command and become his 75 00:05:16.560 --> 00:05:20.560 own master. He was not wedded to the law the 76 00:05:20.600 --> 00:05:23.120 way Lincoln was. He sort of made it up as 77 00:05:23.160 --> 00:05:25.800 he went along. He defied orders, he was court martialed, 78 00:05:27.079 --> 00:05:32.839 and his personality was much more attuned to I want 79 00:05:32.839 --> 00:05:34.439 to get this done, and I'll figure out a way 80 00:05:34.480 --> 00:05:36.360 to do it, and the law be damned. 81 00:05:39.199 --> 00:05:41.720 And I think there's a lot in Freemont, and I 82 00:05:41.800 --> 00:05:44.759 might come back to this later on that we questioned 83 00:05:44.879 --> 00:05:49.519 like who would fit better into today's political society, And 84 00:05:50.079 --> 00:05:54.240 I think in some ways if Fremont might actually might 85 00:05:54.279 --> 00:05:58.560 actually be the better fit than the lawyerly and somewhat 86 00:05:58.639 --> 00:06:03.439 rules based Abraham Lincoln. And you know that the two men, 87 00:06:03.480 --> 00:06:05.759 as we'll talk about in a moment, you know, there's 88 00:06:05.839 --> 00:06:08.560 a chance that we could have had John Fremont as 89 00:06:08.600 --> 00:06:12.120 President of the United States. This is not completely talking 90 00:06:12.120 --> 00:06:14.839 out of turn, but you write in the introduction, and 91 00:06:14.920 --> 00:06:17.519 I want to come back to this issue of losers 92 00:06:17.560 --> 00:06:20.560 here for a second. And I'm putting that phrasen Air quotes, 93 00:06:20.560 --> 00:06:22.439 by the way, but you're writ in the introduction that 94 00:06:22.519 --> 00:06:25.279 quote Fremont did accomplish things during the war that have 95 00:06:25.399 --> 00:06:29.279 been forgotten or dismissed, in large part because he ultimately 96 00:06:29.360 --> 00:06:34.959 failed as a commander a soldier and end quote. And 97 00:06:35.040 --> 00:06:37.399 I guess, I guess I have two questions that come 98 00:06:37.480 --> 00:06:41.120 off of who doesn't and we can debate the fairness 99 00:06:41.360 --> 00:06:47.600 of that. Then, also, specifically to this particular book, should 100 00:06:47.639 --> 00:06:52.600 Fremont be remembered and taught more than he is today? 101 00:06:52.759 --> 00:06:54.560 I suspect to know the answer to the second question, 102 00:06:54.680 --> 00:06:57.519 but I'm interested you to your answer to both. 103 00:06:58.399 --> 00:07:02.000 Okay, and all into the second one first, because it's 104 00:07:02.040 --> 00:07:05.000 easier for me. Of course, I think he should be 105 00:07:05.040 --> 00:07:09.480 remembered and top more. I've written two books about him. 106 00:07:09.639 --> 00:07:15.439 But I think the way history works is there's elevening 107 00:07:15.480 --> 00:07:19.480 a flattening. If you think about just everything going on 108 00:07:19.519 --> 00:07:23.079 in the world today, just look at the newspaper, watch 109 00:07:23.079 --> 00:07:29.079 the news. There are one hundred things going on, and 110 00:07:29.120 --> 00:07:32.040 they all seem important to a group of people, to somebody, 111 00:07:32.680 --> 00:07:37.439 and we pay attention into varying levels depending on our 112 00:07:37.519 --> 00:07:40.839 interests and what it means to us. But one hundred 113 00:07:40.920 --> 00:07:42.959 years from now, one hundred and fifty years from now, 114 00:07:44.040 --> 00:07:47.959 ninety eight of those things will have disappeared, and what 115 00:07:48.759 --> 00:07:52.759 will remain are the two things that affect lives into 116 00:07:52.800 --> 00:07:57.199 the future. Right, So the same thing is true now 117 00:07:57.319 --> 00:07:59.519 of things that happened one hundred and sixty years ago. 118 00:08:00.800 --> 00:08:04.399 As I went back and researched this book, what I 119 00:08:04.519 --> 00:08:09.199 found was in newspapers, in people's diaries, in their letters, 120 00:08:11.319 --> 00:08:14.360 in the coverage of the news. In eighteen sixty, sixty one, 121 00:08:14.399 --> 00:08:20.639 and sixty two. Fremont was much more prevalent than you 122 00:08:20.680 --> 00:08:25.600 would think if you only read books about that era today. 123 00:08:27.439 --> 00:08:30.759 And I think the reason is he was replaced by 124 00:08:30.800 --> 00:08:34.360 other people. Fremont, as I said, was one of the 125 00:08:34.399 --> 00:08:37.360 most famous people in the world in eighteen it was 126 00:08:37.440 --> 00:08:42.039 world famous. In eighteen sixty he had become the most 127 00:08:42.080 --> 00:08:47.159 famous Western explorer, not because he discovered the most new things, 128 00:08:47.519 --> 00:08:52.559 but because he and his wife wrote about those explorations 129 00:08:52.679 --> 00:08:59.240 very eloquently. During westward exploration or expansion, Americans used his 130 00:08:59.480 --> 00:09:03.320 books as guides to the West that they were entering, 131 00:09:04.279 --> 00:09:06.960 and he became quite famous. He was elected a Senator 132 00:09:06.960 --> 00:09:10.320 from California, not because he was a great politician, but 133 00:09:10.399 --> 00:09:16.399 because he was famous and beloved. So by the time 134 00:09:16.480 --> 00:09:19.559 of the Civil War, Fremont was much more famous than Lincoln. 135 00:09:19.879 --> 00:09:24.360 Even still in eighteen sixty and really into eighteen sixty one, 136 00:09:24.799 --> 00:09:28.240 more people knew who Fremont was than knew well who 137 00:09:28.279 --> 00:09:37.000 Lincoln was. And events, of course elevated Lincoln and depressed 138 00:09:37.399 --> 00:09:43.879 Fremont's stock. And because Grant won the battles and Lincoln 139 00:09:43.919 --> 00:09:49.320 won the war and Sherman won the West, Stremont sort 140 00:09:49.360 --> 00:09:53.759 of faded away. He then lost all his money after 141 00:09:53.799 --> 00:10:00.519 the war and faded into oblivion. People rode up, you know, 142 00:10:00.639 --> 00:10:05.159 new heroes rose up to replace him. And so the 143 00:10:05.200 --> 00:10:08.159 things that he did during the war that really did matter, 144 00:10:08.320 --> 00:10:11.360 the appointment of Grant a key moment in the war, 145 00:10:11.879 --> 00:10:16.399 Fremont gave him his first command. The building of the 146 00:10:16.519 --> 00:10:20.480 riverboats in Missouri that Grant later used to conquer Vicksburg 147 00:10:21.440 --> 00:10:26.120 was really attributable to Fremont. He made other reforms in 148 00:10:26.240 --> 00:10:28.639 healthcare and that sort of thing as commander of the 149 00:10:28.639 --> 00:10:32.240 West that made a huge difference in terms of saving 150 00:10:32.320 --> 00:10:36.559 lives at the time, but they just sort of disappeared 151 00:10:36.559 --> 00:10:39.279 into oblivion in the larger picture. 152 00:10:41.399 --> 00:10:43.080 Well, I agree with you with what you say about 153 00:10:43.080 --> 00:10:45.279 sort of the flattening of history, and I think that's 154 00:10:45.320 --> 00:10:47.320 true a lot of times, particularly if you pick up 155 00:10:47.360 --> 00:10:50.600 a textbook, you know, you take up your normal United 156 00:10:50.600 --> 00:10:54.720 States history textbook, you probably get a paragraph I'm going 157 00:10:54.799 --> 00:10:57.960 to say on John C. Fremont, maybe a page if 158 00:10:58.000 --> 00:11:00.799 it's if it's more in depth than that, but it 159 00:11:01.120 --> 00:11:05.080 ignores all the things that the people did at the 160 00:11:05.279 --> 00:11:08.440 time at the time is really and that that phrase 161 00:11:08.519 --> 00:11:12.320 at the time matters, because that's what tends to get forgotten. 162 00:11:12.440 --> 00:11:15.600 We focus on that when we look at history sometimes 163 00:11:15.679 --> 00:11:17.840 that that tip of the iceberg that we can see, 164 00:11:18.480 --> 00:11:22.039 but we don't think about everything that's underneath the surface, 165 00:11:22.320 --> 00:11:25.879 that's actually holding the iceberg up right, And I think 166 00:11:25.919 --> 00:11:28.720 that's you make it a stud comment where it's think 167 00:11:28.759 --> 00:11:30.360 of all the things in the news today. I mean, 168 00:11:30.360 --> 00:11:34.519 we're sitting here, it's April twenty twenty five. A couple 169 00:11:34.559 --> 00:11:36.960 of weeks ago. In the news people couldn't stop talking 170 00:11:36.960 --> 00:11:40.759 about there was this use of this signal chat by 171 00:11:40.840 --> 00:11:44.360 people in the current administration to plan an attack. No 172 00:11:44.360 --> 00:11:46.799 one talks about it anymore. Other things have happened, you know. 173 00:11:46.879 --> 00:11:49.159 And but at the time it seemed like the most 174 00:11:49.200 --> 00:11:53.120 important thing. And it's been two weeks, you know, think 175 00:11:53.159 --> 00:11:58.120 about if it's been years and so on and so forth. 176 00:11:58.240 --> 00:12:00.720 And but you brought up an infant point one that 177 00:12:00.759 --> 00:12:02.360 I wanted to press on a little bit, which is 178 00:12:02.600 --> 00:12:06.799 John C. Fremont and his role in the exploration of 179 00:12:06.919 --> 00:12:11.080 the West. And as you were talking, I thought, gosh, 180 00:12:11.120 --> 00:12:13.200 I really should ask about this. So I wondered if 181 00:12:13.240 --> 00:12:16.200 you could maybe talk for a moment, broadly for listeners 182 00:12:16.399 --> 00:12:18.320 who don't know what we're talking about, who never heard 183 00:12:18.360 --> 00:12:23.440 of John C. Fremont, about what was his general role 184 00:12:23.720 --> 00:12:27.679 in the exploration of a vaswath of the country that 185 00:12:27.759 --> 00:12:30.200 at the time people knew very very little about. 186 00:12:30.240 --> 00:12:35.480 Honestly, Fremont was an officer in the Army Corps of 187 00:12:35.480 --> 00:12:42.840 Topographical Engineers, which was given the task of exploring the 188 00:12:43.000 --> 00:12:48.559 mountain west. Essentially. Freemont's great advantage in this was that 189 00:12:48.600 --> 00:12:51.039 he was married to the daughter of the chairman of 190 00:12:51.080 --> 00:12:55.759 the Senate Military Affairs Committee, Thomas hart Benton, Senator from Missouri, 191 00:12:55.840 --> 00:13:01.200 great proponent of westward expansion, John with his daughter John 192 00:13:01.799 --> 00:13:06.159 Jesse Benton. Thomas hart Benton wasn't very happy about this 193 00:13:06.320 --> 00:13:10.320 at the beginning, but came to appreciate some of Fremonts 194 00:13:10.360 --> 00:13:16.840 some of Fremont's attributes, and Fremont was given command of 195 00:13:17.799 --> 00:13:22.399 exploring expeditions in eighteen forty two, eighteen forty three, and 196 00:13:22.440 --> 00:13:25.919 another one in eighteen forty five. The most famous one 197 00:13:26.279 --> 00:13:29.960 was in eighteen forty three and forty four. He was 198 00:13:30.159 --> 00:13:33.519 tasked with going up the Oregon Trail all the way 199 00:13:33.600 --> 00:13:40.159 to Oregon, which he did, and then without orders, he 200 00:13:40.200 --> 00:13:45.840 turned south, marched his crew down the face of the 201 00:13:45.960 --> 00:13:50.039 Sierra Nevada in wintertime, and then crossed the mountains in 202 00:13:50.080 --> 00:13:54.720 February of eighteen forty four, extremely hazardous undertaking that almost 203 00:13:54.759 --> 00:13:57.279 got some of them killed, although they all managed to 204 00:13:57.279 --> 00:14:00.519 make it, and he crossed into California which of course 205 00:14:00.559 --> 00:14:04.879 that time was part of Mexico. Again, this was all 206 00:14:04.919 --> 00:14:07.399 against He had no orders to do this at all, 207 00:14:07.960 --> 00:14:10.440 and eventually returned to the United States and bent and 208 00:14:10.519 --> 00:14:17.799 smooth things over. The next year, he went back to California. 209 00:14:18.080 --> 00:14:21.799 This was on This was in the very early stages 210 00:14:21.879 --> 00:14:27.000 of the run up to the Mexican War, and he 211 00:14:27.039 --> 00:14:30.080 was in California at the time the war started. He 212 00:14:30.159 --> 00:14:33.480 stirred up some trouble. He ate it and abetted some 213 00:14:33.639 --> 00:14:36.919 local trouble, got in a lot of trouble with the 214 00:14:36.960 --> 00:14:41.279 commanding General, Stephen Watts Carney, and was eventually court martialed 215 00:14:42.120 --> 00:14:48.159 and dismissed from the service. The President was willing to 216 00:14:48.200 --> 00:14:51.399 give him a pardon or at least a commutation of 217 00:14:51.440 --> 00:14:54.720 his sentence, and Fremont refused it, saying that would essentially 218 00:14:54.720 --> 00:14:56.759 be an admission of guilt. He didn't believe he had 219 00:14:56.759 --> 00:15:00.519 done anything wrong, and so he left the army. After that, 220 00:15:00.559 --> 00:15:06.559 he conducted two more exploring had two more explorations into 221 00:15:06.600 --> 00:15:11.440 the West for mostly railroad purposes. These were private endeavors 222 00:15:12.120 --> 00:15:17.679 not funded by the government, that Benton helped facilitate, one 223 00:15:17.720 --> 00:15:21.879 of which ended in disaster in Colorado. They got cotton, 224 00:15:21.879 --> 00:15:27.799 a snowstorm, there was some cannibalism. Again Freemont escaped. So 225 00:15:27.840 --> 00:15:31.159 he was this sort of seminal figure of Western exploration. 226 00:15:31.240 --> 00:15:36.039 As I said earlier, he wasn't exploring areas that other 227 00:15:36.039 --> 00:15:40.200 people had never gone to, but he was a path popularizer, 228 00:15:40.879 --> 00:15:47.080 and he became sort of the image of Western exploration 229 00:15:47.759 --> 00:15:50.080 in the popular mind, much as he became the image 230 00:15:50.080 --> 00:15:53.000 of military emancipation in the Civil War. 231 00:15:54.519 --> 00:15:56.759 I think that's really interesting, and I think that it's 232 00:15:56.759 --> 00:15:59.679 interesting how he becomes the image of it. And I 233 00:15:59.720 --> 00:16:02.919 think that everybody we have to remember, of course, you know, 234 00:16:03.000 --> 00:16:05.759 we're talking about in the eighteen forties, a period where 235 00:16:06.279 --> 00:16:09.399 much of the West it is still being explored and 236 00:16:09.440 --> 00:16:14.039 certainly relatively sparsely populated. So it's not what we could 237 00:16:14.440 --> 00:16:17.639 imagine nowadays, when we have a tendency to think about 238 00:16:17.639 --> 00:16:21.679 these things. But one of the characters are individuals in 239 00:16:21.720 --> 00:16:24.039 the story that I want to come back to is 240 00:16:25.039 --> 00:16:28.879 Jesse Benton Fremont, which is John Fremont's wife, And I 241 00:16:28.919 --> 00:16:32.960 think because she comes across as so important in the 242 00:16:33.039 --> 00:16:37.279 story to him, and I wanted to ask you why 243 00:16:37.320 --> 00:16:39.480 you felt it was so necessary. I think it'll become 244 00:16:39.519 --> 00:16:43.679 pretty clear to readers why and listeners why pretty in 245 00:16:43.720 --> 00:16:45.720 a moment here, but why it was so important to 246 00:16:45.799 --> 00:16:48.840 include hers prominently in the story and why to do 247 00:16:48.879 --> 00:16:51.200 it when you know we're still in an era when 248 00:16:51.279 --> 00:16:56.679 by and large women aren't considered essential parts of history. 249 00:16:56.960 --> 00:16:59.519 But she very much bucks this trend and sort of 250 00:16:59.519 --> 00:17:01.480 get to the like, how does she do that? 251 00:17:03.039 --> 00:17:09.680 She was completely essential to Fremont's success. What made him 252 00:17:09.720 --> 00:17:14.079 famous was the reports of these There were the government publications, 253 00:17:14.839 --> 00:17:19.920 the reports of the exploration, but she was essentially his editor, 254 00:17:19.960 --> 00:17:24.599 if not co author, of these reports and would she 255 00:17:24.799 --> 00:17:28.400 took what could have been very dry descriptions of him 256 00:17:28.519 --> 00:17:31.720 running around out in the West and turned them into 257 00:17:31.759 --> 00:17:37.960 these sort of poetical adventure stories that grabbed people's emancipation 258 00:17:38.119 --> 00:17:45.240 or imagination. Pretty much real contribution in terms of Western 259 00:17:45.279 --> 00:17:51.759 exploration was to change people's perception of what the West was. 260 00:17:53.160 --> 00:17:58.519 Stephen Long, who had explored parts of the West in 261 00:17:58.720 --> 00:18:02.960 eighteen eighteen eighteen twenty, called it the Great American Desert, 262 00:18:03.359 --> 00:18:05.160 and that was sort of the image people had of 263 00:18:05.200 --> 00:18:09.160 the West. There was a big, wide, useless expanse that 264 00:18:09.440 --> 00:18:12.480 wasn't green and beautiful like the east, where we lived 265 00:18:13.200 --> 00:18:19.160 and Fremont. Fremont and Jesse's descriptions of the West changed 266 00:18:19.200 --> 00:18:24.079 that perception. People still understood it wasn't green, but while 267 00:18:24.200 --> 00:18:27.240 Stegner's phrase, they were able to get over the collar 268 00:18:27.240 --> 00:18:34.799 of green. They made people. They helped people understand the 269 00:18:34.839 --> 00:18:38.759 West on its own terms and appreciate its greatness for 270 00:18:38.839 --> 00:18:42.039 what it was instead of what it was. And that's 271 00:18:42.039 --> 00:18:45.200 what Jesse contributed to these reports. And then because she 272 00:18:45.240 --> 00:18:47.640 had grown up, what you know, working with her father 273 00:18:47.680 --> 00:18:50.920 who was a senator, she knew the political world. She 274 00:18:51.039 --> 00:18:54.000 was much more attuned to that world than Fremont ever was, 275 00:18:55.200 --> 00:18:58.359 and she was essentially his campaign manager for president in 276 00:18:58.400 --> 00:19:03.359 eighteen fifty six. She handled correspondence, She dealt with all 277 00:19:03.400 --> 00:19:06.000 of these men who were trying to tell him what 278 00:19:06.079 --> 00:19:10.319 to do and how to do it. And you said, 279 00:19:10.359 --> 00:19:12.440 he could have been elected president. He could have been 280 00:19:12.440 --> 00:19:15.880 elected president. It was the party was news. They weren't 281 00:19:15.960 --> 00:19:19.079 very well organized, but it came within you know, three 282 00:19:19.119 --> 00:19:22.240 states really of winning the election that Lincoln won four 283 00:19:22.319 --> 00:19:26.039 years later. And when people talked about what Fremont might 284 00:19:26.119 --> 00:19:29.000 do as president, they didn't say Fremont would do this. 285 00:19:29.359 --> 00:19:33.319 They said the Fremonts would do this. So even then 286 00:19:33.839 --> 00:19:38.480 the people who, even the politicians in Washington, understood the 287 00:19:38.599 --> 00:19:42.799 role that she played. Well, I want to go back. 288 00:19:42.880 --> 00:19:44.839 Let's talk a little bit more about that election, because 289 00:19:44.839 --> 00:19:46.400 I think we're talking about the election. Well at first, 290 00:19:46.400 --> 00:19:48.880 I want to talk about eighteen fifty six. You know, 291 00:19:48.960 --> 00:19:55.480 the Republican Party is incredibly new and Fremont decides to 292 00:19:55.599 --> 00:19:59.880 run for the Republican nomination in that year. And I'm 293 00:20:00.079 --> 00:20:03.200 curious as to why he made that choice, Like where 294 00:20:03.359 --> 00:20:05.400 was he in his life that made him want to 295 00:20:05.440 --> 00:20:09.799 do that, and you know why was the campaign ultimately 296 00:20:09.880 --> 00:20:11.119 unsuccessful for him. 297 00:20:11.440 --> 00:20:13.400 He had been elected to the Senate in eighteen fifty 298 00:20:13.440 --> 00:20:17.200 As soon as California became a state, he was he 299 00:20:17.319 --> 00:20:20.519 was this great heroic figure in the state and he 300 00:20:20.680 --> 00:20:22.839 was one of the first two senators to be elected. 301 00:20:22.880 --> 00:20:25.559 He unfortunately for him, drew the short straw, so he 302 00:20:25.599 --> 00:20:28.400 had to run again in two years and wasn't re elected. 303 00:20:29.440 --> 00:20:34.319 And then they discovered gold on this plot of land 304 00:20:34.319 --> 00:20:36.839 that he had bought for you know, next to nothing 305 00:20:36.839 --> 00:20:43.279 in California, and he became incredibly wealthy. So between eighteen 306 00:20:43.319 --> 00:20:48.240 fifty and eighteen fifty five he was developing this gold 307 00:20:48.240 --> 00:20:55.000 mining operation in California. And in eighteen fifty four, of course, 308 00:20:55.000 --> 00:20:58.200 to Kansas Nebraska Act was passed. It destroyed the Whig Party. 309 00:20:58.200 --> 00:21:02.319 The Republican Party formed an eighteen fifty four and both 310 00:21:02.440 --> 00:21:07.640 parties really came to Fremont in eighteen fifty five interested 311 00:21:07.680 --> 00:21:10.880 in him being their candidate for president in eighteen fifty six. 312 00:21:10.960 --> 00:21:14.000 That's how that's the kind of figure he was at 313 00:21:14.000 --> 00:21:19.440 that time. Both parties thought almost like an Eisenhower. Both 314 00:21:19.480 --> 00:21:21.519 parties wanted him to be their candidate, or at least 315 00:21:21.519 --> 00:21:24.160 some elements of parties, but he couldn't be a Democratic 316 00:21:24.200 --> 00:21:26.839 candidate because he could not accept the Kansas Nebraska Act. 317 00:21:26.839 --> 00:21:31.319 He was anti slavery, and so sort of naturally turned 318 00:21:31.319 --> 00:21:35.960 to the Republican Party. The great advantage he had as 319 00:21:36.000 --> 00:21:40.000 a candidate was he had the sponsorship of Francis Preston Blair. 320 00:21:40.359 --> 00:21:43.359 Blair had been a Jacksonian. He was the newspaper editor 321 00:21:44.119 --> 00:21:48.720 for the Democratic organ under Jackson, but he had drifted 322 00:21:48.720 --> 00:21:51.759 away from the Democratic Party as it became increasingly pro 323 00:21:52.319 --> 00:21:57.079 slavery and pro Southern And Blair was this great mover 324 00:21:57.160 --> 00:22:02.920 and shaker in Washington, and he was a leading organizer 325 00:22:02.960 --> 00:22:06.079 of the Republican Party, and he was a longtime friend 326 00:22:06.079 --> 00:22:12.000 of Thomas Hart Benton, so he thought he had really 327 00:22:12.039 --> 00:22:14.559 hoped Benton would be the first presidential candidate for the 328 00:22:14.559 --> 00:22:17.119 Republican but Benton wanted nothing to do with this project, 329 00:22:18.079 --> 00:22:22.400 so he turned to Fremont, and Fremont essentially got a 330 00:22:22.440 --> 00:22:26.359 free ride to the nomination because the other leading candidates 331 00:22:26.880 --> 00:22:31.000 mostly William Seward from New York Salm and Chase from Ohio, 332 00:22:31.920 --> 00:22:37.279 who were both longtime anti slavery activists. Seward was quite reluctant, 333 00:22:38.200 --> 00:22:40.319 Chase was a little reluctant. He would have taken the 334 00:22:40.359 --> 00:22:43.279 nomination if they'd given it to him, but they were 335 00:22:43.279 --> 00:22:45.680 both a little worried that the party wasn't very well organized, 336 00:22:45.720 --> 00:22:48.559 it was brand new and probably had very little chance 337 00:22:48.599 --> 00:22:50.400 to win, so they were sort of happy to see 338 00:22:50.400 --> 00:22:58.400 Fremont be the guinea pig for this operation, and so 339 00:22:58.559 --> 00:23:02.200 Freemont won the nomination. Lincoln actually was considered as the 340 00:23:02.279 --> 00:23:04.720 vice presidential candidate in eighteen fifty six. He got the 341 00:23:04.720 --> 00:23:08.200 second most votes at the Republican convention for vice president. 342 00:23:09.960 --> 00:23:13.160 Why did he lose the election? I write in my 343 00:23:13.200 --> 00:23:18.359 book about the campaign in the Lincoln's Pathfinder of the 344 00:23:18.359 --> 00:23:24.640 previous book that American voters were still more afraid of 345 00:23:25.680 --> 00:23:32.200 disunion than they hated slavery. In eighteen fifty six, the 346 00:23:32.240 --> 00:23:36.279 Democrats really ran a good campaign, saying essentially, if you 347 00:23:36.319 --> 00:23:39.720 elect Fremont, it means the session it probably would have. 348 00:23:41.119 --> 00:23:43.039 In the intervening four years. Of course, you had the 349 00:23:43.119 --> 00:23:46.480 dread Scott decision, you had the great controversy over Kansas, 350 00:23:47.000 --> 00:23:49.759 and then you had John Brown's attack at Harper's Ferry 351 00:23:50.119 --> 00:23:56.519 sort of changed the circumstances and made the North hate slavery, 352 00:23:56.599 --> 00:23:59.480 or at least parts of North the hate slavery more 353 00:23:59.519 --> 00:24:02.880 than they secession, which, of course, and the Democratic Party 354 00:24:02.960 --> 00:24:06.359 splintered also, which made it possible for Lincoln to be 355 00:24:06.400 --> 00:24:07.880 elected where Fremont could not be. 356 00:24:10.039 --> 00:24:12.160 Yeah, I want to pause there for a second and 357 00:24:12.200 --> 00:24:18.000 come back to this question of Fremont and slavery, because 358 00:24:18.039 --> 00:24:20.519 I think it's worth talking about for a moment. 359 00:24:20.960 --> 00:24:21.599 Two things. 360 00:24:21.720 --> 00:24:26.279 One which is, you know, had Fremont always opposed slavery 361 00:24:26.319 --> 00:24:28.680 and what was to what extent we can know and 362 00:24:28.720 --> 00:24:31.079 obviously you can't look into the hearts of individuals from 363 00:24:31.200 --> 00:24:33.440 hundreds of years ago. To what extent do we know 364 00:24:33.519 --> 00:24:36.200 why he opposed slavery. I mean, different people opposed slavery 365 00:24:36.200 --> 00:24:40.640 for different reasons and to different extents. And how did 366 00:24:40.680 --> 00:24:42.759 Fremont And then sort of a second follow up question 367 00:24:42.759 --> 00:24:45.319 would be, like, how did Fremont's views on slavery differ 368 00:24:45.359 --> 00:24:48.759 from Lincoln's? You know, because Lincoln's position in the election 369 00:24:48.799 --> 00:24:52.480 of eighteen sixty is very intentional about the opposing the 370 00:24:52.519 --> 00:24:57.160 expansion of slavery, not necessarily contradicting slavery where it already exists. 371 00:24:57.599 --> 00:25:00.400 That's that's different, right than saying that we're going to 372 00:25:00.440 --> 00:25:03.160 abolish slavery. And I wonder if I could ask you 373 00:25:03.279 --> 00:25:08.039 where did Fremont fall on this spectrum of anti slavery stances? 374 00:25:08.240 --> 00:25:14.440 Okay, Jesse was always very strongly anti slavery. We don't 375 00:25:14.480 --> 00:25:17.079 really know much about Freemond. He never wrote or talked 376 00:25:17.240 --> 00:25:21.279 much about it until eighteen fifty he entered the Senate. 377 00:25:21.559 --> 00:25:26.880 He cast some anti slavery votes, but was not He 378 00:25:27.039 --> 00:25:33.119 was not an abolitionist. He did not support, for example, 379 00:25:33.400 --> 00:25:36.960 abolition in the District of Columbia. He supported the abolition 380 00:25:37.039 --> 00:25:40.079 of the slave trade, which was part of the Compromise 381 00:25:40.119 --> 00:25:44.240 of eighteen fifty, but he was sort of mildly anti 382 00:25:44.440 --> 00:25:49.559 slavery in the way a lot of northern at that point. 383 00:25:49.640 --> 00:25:55.240 He was a northern person Northern politicians were, but not 384 00:25:55.440 --> 00:26:01.440 adamantly when and of course was had a wife a 385 00:26:01.640 --> 00:26:07.359 long history of being anti slavery, but again not an abolitionist. 386 00:26:08.839 --> 00:26:13.559 The Republican platform of eighteen fifty six reflected that position 387 00:26:14.920 --> 00:26:18.640 against the expansion of slavery into New territory, but leaving 388 00:26:18.720 --> 00:26:22.920 slavery alone or it existed, and it continued that that 389 00:26:23.079 --> 00:26:26.640 was also part of the campaign of eighteen sixty And 390 00:26:26.759 --> 00:26:30.200 when the war started, Fremont gave a speech in May 391 00:26:30.359 --> 00:26:34.839 of eighteen sixty one, he was still in Europe, calling 392 00:26:35.920 --> 00:26:40.039 for the North to rise up and defeat the rebels 393 00:26:40.599 --> 00:26:43.200 to preserve the union. And he gave a fairly long 394 00:26:43.279 --> 00:26:46.680 speech and did not mention slavery in May of eighteen 395 00:26:46.720 --> 00:26:51.160 sixty one. But by August of eighteen sixty one he 396 00:26:51.279 --> 00:26:53.359 had been in Missouri for a month, and he had 397 00:26:53.720 --> 00:27:02.039 seen how the war there was progressing, and I think 398 00:27:02.160 --> 00:27:06.519 he and Lincoln reached the same conclusion. Fremont just got 399 00:27:06.680 --> 00:27:10.680 there first by the end of August eighteen sixty one. 400 00:27:11.640 --> 00:27:16.799 What Fremont believed was that it would absolutely necessary to 401 00:27:16.920 --> 00:27:20.319