Speaker 1: You see something's going to happen. What's going to happen?
Speaker 1: What I Welcome back to the Occult Rejects. Today's guest
Speaker 1: is Tree Car author Ted X, speaker, dreaming guide and
Speaker 1: teacher working in the field of trans personal psychology with
Speaker 1: a focus on dreams, death, altered states of consciousness and
Speaker 1: psychedelic assistant therapy. She studied psychedelics and altered states through
Speaker 1: the Out of Trust, studied ecology, spirituality and paranormal through
Speaker 1: the Sofia Center at the University of Wales Trinity Saint David,
Speaker 1: and also studied at the Arthur Finlay College of Psychic Science.
Speaker 1: She teaches through the College of Psychic Studies in London.
Speaker 1: Is a faculty member at the Magical Path School of
Speaker 1: Witchcraft in New York. Has taught lucid dreaming practices at
Speaker 1: the Royal College of Art and also worked with platforms
Speaker 1: like the Psychedelic Society UK and She's Lost Control. She's
Speaker 1: the author of a wide range of books and projects,
Speaker 1: including Dreams, Conscious Dreamer, The Artist's Oracle, Espel a Day
Speaker 1: Dreamwork and now Technomancy, her forthcoming book from Watkins Publishing.
Speaker 1: Before stepping fully into the esoteric and therapeutic arts. She
Speaker 1: also had a background in music writing and film, including
Speaker 1: running the East London cult film Society Today is Born
Speaker 1: from twenty from two thousand and two to twenty twelve
Speaker 1: and collaborating musically with artists, including test Parts. Her official
Speaker 1: bio says she was born in nineteen seventy two and
Speaker 1: spent her early childhood on a commune in the southern
Speaker 1: United States, which she credits as part of her lifelong
Speaker 1: attraction to mysticism, the strange, and the unseen. Her TEDx
Speaker 1: talk asked a simple but potent question, can your dreams
Speaker 1: tell you something? And that same threshold sensibility seems to
Speaker 1: run through all her work Dreams, ritual grief, altered consciousness, symbolism,
Speaker 1: and the edges between ordinary life and the unseen. And
Speaker 1: now she's bringing that worldview into the digital age with Technomancy,
Speaker 1: tech Magic and Spells for the twenty first Century, which
Speaker 1: a two hundred and eighty two page book scheduled for
Speaker 1: release on May twelfth, twenty twenty six, according to the publisher,
Speaker 1: could be wrong, and the book explores sacred digital space,
Speaker 1: emoji signals, the smartphone as a modern wand social media
Speaker 1: as magical terrain and even ai as an oracular presence
Speaker 1: with magical practice. All right, that's enough out of me.
Speaker 1: Now let me introduce Sonre, who is co hosting the
Speaker 1: show with me today. Very happy to get you back
Speaker 1: on BUD. I like you when you're on the show.
Speaker 2: Man.
Speaker 1: You've got some good angles and great stuff to add.
Speaker 1: Please or let everybody know what is up with you
Speaker 1: and where they can find all your amazing work in
Speaker 1: your school.
Speaker 3: Yeah right, and thank you very much. Nick. I like
Speaker 3: doing this show. I like to thank you for more
Speaker 3: than I like doing my show.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: My name is Sonri. I am the host of the
Speaker 3: Order of Chaost podcast and the Order of cast University,
Speaker 3: where you can, you know, come hang out with us
Speaker 3: if you want to and learn a system of magic
Speaker 3: I call chaos witchcraft god. But coming out in October
Speaker 3: with wiser and uh and yeah, I'm bad. Given introductions
Speaker 3: is good enough for awesome.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much here and again thank you for
Speaker 1: joining us and Shre. Finally to you, is there anything
Speaker 1: that you would like to add or that I left
Speaker 1: out or anything you like to plug a promo? Please?
Speaker 2: No, No, you covered a lot. It made me feel
Speaker 2: like really old actually I was like, Wow, that's like
Speaker 2: my whole life like flashing up before my eyes. And
Speaker 2: but that's a good place to be to look can
Speaker 2: go Wow, there's some stuff that got experienced.
Speaker 1: You did the dance things so far, haven't you good? Good?
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was an impressive introduction on your partner and
Speaker 3: also an impressive bio and tree. I am embarrassed to
Speaker 3: say I was not familiar with you or your work
Speaker 3: before I was scheduled this meeting. But I'm taking a
Speaker 3: look at it now and I'm listening to a nixt
Speaker 3: introduction and I've already got a thousand questions. So it's
Speaker 3: wonderful to meet you, and very very cool, cool life
Speaker 3: you've led.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's been a very weird and wonderful one. It's
Speaker 2: one of those ones where like as a kid, I
Speaker 2: was always scratching my head about like what am I
Speaker 2: going to be when I grow up. I'm just so like,
Speaker 2: I don't know I'll ever have a normal job, Like
Speaker 2: I just think that I was sort of set up
Speaker 2: from early childhood that I just I don't think I
Speaker 2: would have a normal job like I remember in the eighties.
Speaker 2: I think we might all be in the same age group.
Speaker 2: I was born in seventy two, if you guys are
Speaker 2: seventies eighty three. Yeah, in the eighties, it was really popular,
Speaker 2: especially in middle school junior high school, to to kind
Speaker 2: of like feed into like the old fashioned cooters, like
Speaker 2: your talents or skills, and then it would spew out
Speaker 2: this sort of like really long printed out kind of
Speaker 2: message of your best suit of jobs. And my best
Speaker 2: suited jobs were really like it didn't give me confidence.
Speaker 2: One of them was professional clown, which now I look
Speaker 2: back and think that's great, like actually like you know,
Speaker 2: the trickster, the clown, the pool. Another one was a
Speaker 2: religious leader, and I was just thinking, okay, how would
Speaker 2: like like a cult leader, like what does that mean?
Speaker 2: And then I think the third one was like an
Speaker 2: interior designer. But I mean look at my room, like
Speaker 2: I don't I don't think so, I'm I'm it's kind
Speaker 2: of mad and I've kind of got to organized chaos.
Speaker 2: So I think I feel at you knowy three year
Speaker 2: old now just going like phew, I made it, and
Speaker 2: I think I know what I do now. But it's
Speaker 2: all the weird stuff. It's all the weird stuff.
Speaker 3: Did you did you ever have a normal job. Was
Speaker 3: that ever a part of your path?
Speaker 2: Let's see, did ever have a normal job? Well, very
Speaker 2: first job was flipping burgers at McDonald's for like a summer,
Speaker 2: so I mean most teenagers were doing that, and then
Speaker 2: like you know, having to do the grunt work with
Speaker 2: with with that, and quickly uh getting out of it,
Speaker 2: especially as a vegan, not not the best place to
Speaker 2: work when you're kind of vegan.
Speaker 1: Some dedication right there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well Lena is to say it probably lasted about
Speaker 2: a month, but yeah, I mean in terms of normal jobs,
Speaker 2: not really. I mean we're probably teenage jobs. But quickly
Speaker 2: I was like, I can't work for the I cannot
Speaker 2: work for multi death corporations and for the man. And
Speaker 2: so he sort of pivoted into a like just become
Speaker 2: an entrepreneur, just you know, just look into things that
Speaker 2: are your talents and make something happen of it. So
Speaker 2: I basically started my first business at thirty years old,
Speaker 2: so in London, and I opened up like a cult
Speaker 2: film video film shop, video shop, and film club and
Speaker 2: around that for a very long time in London. So yeah,
Speaker 2: it was kind of like I just got to do
Speaker 2: what makes me happy, and so all the weird stuff
Speaker 2: makes me happy.
Speaker 1: I totally get that one thing. I guess I do
Speaker 1: want to kind of touch on at the beginning before
Speaker 1: we get into it, and not to make it like
Speaker 1: a making it a hit piece or looking at it
Speaker 1: in a weird way. I do want to kind of
Speaker 1: to get an idea what was it like growing like
Speaker 1: with the Commune in the United States, growing up like that,
Speaker 1: Just get an idea of like, you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there were really weird times in the early seventies
Speaker 2: because we had a lot of change going on, especially
Speaker 2: in the States, and you know, the sort of hippie movement,
Speaker 2: the psychedelic movement, and so a lot of change, social movement,
Speaker 2: social change, political change, Vietnam, you name it, right, So
Speaker 2: there was a real hunger to sort of living differently
Speaker 2: at that time. And so the commune slash cult that
Speaker 2: I grew up in a freak commune cult. So a
Speaker 2: lot of people who were ex hippies, X Vietnam vets,
Speaker 2: and people who had drug issues, drug problems. It's these
Speaker 2: sort of things were really apparent back then, like the
Speaker 2: Children of God, the Jesus People movement, all of these
Speaker 2: kind of things. And was it like, well, it was
Speaker 2: pretty much was a big formative impression since I was
Speaker 2: a form child growing up in the formative years there
Speaker 2: no television, no radio, no pop culture, no outside influence
Speaker 2: in terms of very sheltered. But then also seeing all
Speaker 2: like the kind of like adults acting in crazy ways,
Speaker 2: like you know, going around on the floor, possessed by demons,
Speaker 2: speaking in tongues like, you know, seeing all the like
Speaker 2: signs and wonders that that came that belief system, and
Speaker 2: so that's a lot to take in as a kid.
Speaker 2: And the good things were seeing one of us learned
Speaker 2: how to play instruments, So I played tons of different
Speaker 2: instruments and read a lot and was creative. So it
Speaker 2: helped develop extreme creativity in me, I suppose. And then
Speaker 2: also a really deep connection to like the mystical side
Speaker 2: of life, like dreaming. And I had a near death
Speaker 2: experience when when I lived there when I was four,
Speaker 2: so that also really really unlocked kind of super experiencer
Speaker 2: kind of situations and you know all the anomalous and strange,
Speaker 2: high weird situations that come from coming back from the
Speaker 2: brink of death, you know. So that was probably the
Speaker 2: biggest influence for a lot of the stuff that I
Speaker 2: support people and hold space for people in now as well.
Speaker 1: That so mix I was going to say, the ND
Speaker 1: probably is one of the most actually impactful things in
Speaker 1: your life, right, Oh for sure.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like it definitely was, And it wasn't really until
Speaker 2: you know, like you just sort of real as you
Speaker 2: get older and you look back, You're like, yeah, your
Speaker 2: death experience, Yeah, I know, you just kind of put
Speaker 2: it on the sho shelf of experience of life. And
Speaker 2: then as I got older, I started to step into
Speaker 2: the role of like I'm a death duelist, so I
Speaker 2: hold space for people who are dying. So I've been
Speaker 2: doing that for the last fteen years, you know, and
Speaker 2: looking back and connecting the dots of all my experiences,
Speaker 2: I was like, whoa, it all started really that near experience,
Speaker 2: Like that's where it all started. In fact, like when
Speaker 2: my dad pulled me out of the ocean after the
Speaker 2: near drowning. He put me back to land, and the
Speaker 2: first thing he did was he took out his camera
Speaker 2: and he took a photo of me. That would have
Speaker 2: been like nineteen seventy six, And like years later, when
Speaker 2: I was a teenager going through the photo album, I said, Dad,
Speaker 2: why did you take a photo of me after I
Speaker 2: got back from the brink death? And he said, because
Speaker 2: can't you see your eyes in this picture? And I
Speaker 2: was like, look at my eyes and thought, wow, how
Speaker 2: did I not see that before? Like guys are like
Speaker 2: two black voids? And he said, your eyes changed and
Speaker 2: I wanted to capture that because it was so uncanny.
Speaker 2: I thought, the pue my altar, so grab it and
Speaker 2: I need it to be on my altar because I
Speaker 2: need it to remind every day. I don't know if
Speaker 2: you can see how dark the eyes like voids?
Speaker 3: That absolutely wow, it looks like those It's not just
Speaker 3: your eyes. There's there's more going on I see, but yeah, wow.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so just staring into the void, I came back
Speaker 2: staring from the boy. So I I this lives with
Speaker 2: my altar because it remins me every day, momento more
Speaker 2: every day. It's like, you know, you I know how
Speaker 2: to sit with death, like I know how to hold
Speaker 2: compassionate presence for people who are scared to die. And
Speaker 2: so I have to become the four year old again,
Speaker 2: you know, in order to hold So yeah, anyway that
Speaker 2: these things shaped me into what I do today. So
Speaker 2: you know that list got in middle full of the
Speaker 2: clown and the religious leader is here, your designer. I
Speaker 2: don't know where that fits in, but I think what
Speaker 2: I'm doing now is sort of from the school of life. Really,
Speaker 2: you know, taught me what to do basically.
Speaker 3: Treat you just as taking a wild guess here, and
Speaker 3: I could be totally off. Just I'm just curious. You
Speaker 3: happen to have a lot of Scorpio in your chart.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I like scorpio sunn and rising.
Speaker 3: Astrology is so fucking real man, Yes, scored because the
Speaker 3: scorpio loves to get close to death. Scorpio is death.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know it's the eighth house kind of like, ah,
Speaker 2: there we go. And I've never been afraid of it.
Speaker 2: I mean, like even in the moments where I had
Speaker 2: that ND as a kid. And it's so hard to
Speaker 2: articulate this because obviously it's a little four year old.
Speaker 2: I'm not sitting there articulating it. It's like in retrospect,
Speaker 2: but I had a weird thing as a child where
Speaker 2: a really deep, deep memory, like I have memories of
Speaker 2: crawling around in my diaper and like very specific, veryific
Speaker 2: things and perspectives and vantage points even like sitting out
Speaker 2: in the grass and like looking at my little baby feet,
Speaker 2: I think like, wow, I look at my little feet.
Speaker 2: Like having sort of like the observer effect. I had
Speaker 2: that really early on SPIRED, so I was able to
Speaker 2: kind of like I don't know, like integrate that experience.
Speaker 2: But when I had the ANTE, I went to the
Speaker 2: whole other pace and had a real sense that the
Speaker 2: ocean was also conscious, and the ocean like was a
Speaker 2: an entity in its own right. But it did it didn't.
Speaker 2: It's like it was kind of like how I communed.
Speaker 2: It was sort of like it was saying sort of
Speaker 2: like it's not nothing personal, it's not personal, that you're
Speaker 2: doing nothing personal. And there was a sort of like
Speaker 2: understanding and a non attachment connected to that, like oh okay,
Speaker 2: and but I'm okay, I'm not in pain any like
Speaker 2: fucking drowning and salt water and you know, scrambling to
Speaker 2: try to grab those posts of the dock and it
Speaker 2: sliced my up from the barnacles and I just went
Speaker 2: to this other place. But what was what really impacted
Speaker 2: me was that I was shown like I had I
Speaker 2: was like a nonlinear time and I was able to
Speaker 2: see like what was coming next like the future, and
Speaker 2: I saw like all the emergency vehicles land to the beach,
Speaker 2: like getting there, my parents giving reports, my parents distraught,
Speaker 2: like beyond belief, and them never finding my body again.
Speaker 2: And the grief I felt for my parents and empathy
Speaker 2: and compaction I felt for them was unbelievable, was like cosmic.
Speaker 2: It was I can't oh, it's like deep love and
Speaker 2: knowing like I've always been with them and they've always
Speaker 2: been with us all together, and uh, I had more
Speaker 2: concern for them they did about me being dead or dying.
Speaker 2: You know. It was very interesting and so yeah, that's
Speaker 2: kind of I think one of the big initiators of
Speaker 2: my life and in a very scorpio moment. So it's
Speaker 2: it's made me not afraid of death. Like literally, like
Speaker 2: a few years later, my grandpa died and I understood
Speaker 2: where he went, like I just kind of understood, all
Speaker 2: is okay, And when they are in the casket at
Speaker 2: the wake, I was super comfortable just going up to
Speaker 2: him holding putting my hand in the casket and holding
Speaker 2: his hand and touching him and by real going what
Speaker 2: are you doing? You can't do that? But then I
Speaker 2: was like the teenager that was like, you know, when
Speaker 2: there was a death in the circle of my mother
Speaker 2: or granny's family, like, oh, come to the wake, I'd
Speaker 2: be like, all right, little weirdo, Okay, yeah, sure you
Speaker 2: can come around. So it's always like very scorpio, just
Speaker 2: comfortable around that. I wanted to be around it and
Speaker 2: not in a morbid way, but I just kind of
Speaker 2: felt like, I don't know, just I need to be
Speaker 2: in those spaces to help people. So a bit of
Speaker 2: that service orientated.
Speaker 1: That's okyo, Yeah, that's wild. Pick that scorpios on it.
Speaker 3: Well, I'm in my observation right just from doing this
Speaker 3: for for half my life. A little more scorpio, the
Speaker 3: more scorpio energy, more scorpial placements you have in your chart,
Speaker 3: the more people around you will die or the other
Speaker 3: option is that you will die and come back, And
Speaker 3: the stronger the scorpio placements, the more likely that is.
Speaker 3: And it's you know, astrologies. I'm not going to sit
Speaker 3: here and say it's one hundred per always dead on accurate,
Speaker 3: but it's like ninety eight percent fucking dead on accurate.
Speaker 3: You know, there's always at the rule, but.
Speaker 2: It tracks, and that's interesting what you say about like
Speaker 2: a load of deaths around you, because I basically had
Speaker 2: these uncanny synchronicities all my life, really initiated as a
Speaker 2: teenager where I have a lot of friends who are
Speaker 2: dying or their parents were, and I was really there
Speaker 2: for those situations but without fear. And then these crazy
Speaker 2: episodes which have been following my whole life where I'm
Speaker 2: in about public and I'm the person who is there
Speaker 2: when someone's run over by a car, someone is thrown
Speaker 2: off their bike, somebody has fainted on the escalator and
Speaker 2: or fallen down the stairs, and they're like literally I'm
Speaker 2: the first there. And it got to the point where
Speaker 2: it's happened so much, my friends and my partner pointing
Speaker 2: it out like every time we go out something like
Speaker 2: you know, I started getting the complex like I sort
Speaker 2: of like you know, grim Reaper or something that was
Speaker 2: making it happen. But one of the biggest moments that
Speaker 2: happened I did finally say, okay, Universe, what's going on,
Speaker 2: what's this all about? And did a bit of dream
Speaker 2: work around it. It was like within a very short
Speaker 2: amount of time and within a year period in London,
Speaker 2: like I kept getting it over and over where people
Speaker 2: were literally falling at my feet in these accidents. I
Speaker 2: had this one situation on Carnaby Street in London. It
Speaker 2: was a busy Christmas season. I was walking down the
Speaker 2: street and it was really crowded, so it's not, you know,
Speaker 2: unusual for a person just to stop dead in their
Speaker 2: tracks and like throughout they're going. But this guy stopped
Speaker 2: dead in his tracks and then he started to slowly
Speaker 2: fall backwards into me and I like caught him and
Speaker 2: as he was down, like what is going on? I
Speaker 2: saw that he had a needle that he had just
Speaker 2: plunged into his arm and he was o ding and
Speaker 2: literally od in my arms and so you know, obviously
Speaker 2: called the emergency services and got him there. They saved
Speaker 2: his life, but it was like I'm falling into my
Speaker 2: arms kind of thing. Like that's just one example, but
Speaker 2: one that I'll just circle back to. This sort of
Speaker 2: like scorpio thing where it doesn't like causing this was
Speaker 2: like at another market in London, walking down the street
Speaker 2: in October and this man was in front of me,
Speaker 2: a big, big guy, and he stumbled and leaned against
Speaker 2: the wall and so like it was kind of like
Speaker 2: looked like he might have fallen to me. So I
Speaker 2: kind of propped up and went, hey, are you okay?
Speaker 2: Would you like to come sit down on this bench?
Speaker 2: And as soon as I touched he started to crumble
Speaker 2: and I just had a no one like this is serious.
Speaker 2: And he went down and he was turning purple and
Speaker 2: like clutching his chest. He was having a massive cardiac arrest,
Speaker 2: so like a lot of panic, and so we were
Speaker 2: like giving him CPR and like a few of us
Speaker 2: were having a go at really trying to help him
Speaker 2: while people called emergency services. And literally I just this
Speaker 2: is knowing, like this guy is going to die. And
Speaker 2: so while they were everyone's trying to help and work
Speaker 2: on him, I was just keeping his head in my
Speaker 2: lap and just literally stroking his arm, saying you're not alone,
Speaker 2: You're not alone, You're not alone. And his eyes were
Speaker 2: fixed open and up into the sky and streams of tears.
Speaker 2: Just it was like he could see something. It was
Speaker 2: like looking into the realms and and his last breath
Speaker 2: just on the exhale he passed, and it was like,
Speaker 2: what the fuck was the Sufky comedy to be? And
Speaker 2: it was like a community thing because it was just me,
Speaker 2: there's a few other people and then we heard this
Speaker 2: woman start screaming. About a minute later, by this time,
Speaker 2: the ambulance came and they were like liberating this guy.
Speaker 2: It was awful because it was like he had already
Speaker 2: been dead for a good twenty minutes, but they have
Speaker 2: to try. And this woman and these two women and
Speaker 2: this child came running back and they're like, dad, Dad,
Speaker 2: And they came back. They had were walking ahead in
Speaker 2: the market and they didn't realize that their dad had
Speaker 2: like kind of fallen behind and had this situation happened.
Speaker 2: So they came back and found their their dad and
Speaker 2: husband and son. Because it was the mother, the wife
Speaker 2: and the child to see that, and I just they
Speaker 2: were freaked, and I just was hugging them like a
Speaker 2: total stranger and like hugging with them. I stayed with
Speaker 2: them all day, you know, hugging and like gave them
Speaker 2: my number. And it was so it was that that
Speaker 2: situation where I said to the universe, like, what is
Speaker 2: going on? Like, am I some kind of grimmer? Yeah?
Speaker 2: The triple scorpio thing, And the universe gave me the answer.
Speaker 2: When I was waking up in the morn, warning like
Speaker 2: a succession of like visions in the pompic state, and
Speaker 2: it was like literally a connect the dots situation, like
Speaker 2: since you're near death, experience this this stuff all through
Speaker 2: your life with these people falling at your feet and
Speaker 2: you know, in grave danger or on the urge of
Speaker 2: death or dying arms. This is happening for a reason,
Speaker 2: because this is what you're meant to be doing. And
Speaker 2: so I woke up with this Eureka moment, like meant
Speaker 2: to be doing? Like what are you, like, like, I'm
Speaker 2: not a paraetic, Like I'm not a nurse, I'm not
Speaker 2: a paramedic, you know. So I got on to Google
Speaker 2: because it is kind of tech oracle kind of thing
Speaker 2: to do sometimes when you're like stumped, and I just
Speaker 2: typed in like emotional support at death, because that I mean,
Speaker 2: that's I have no year. I jump into holding space
Speaker 2: for people, like into my eyes, breathe through it, like
Speaker 2: you know, that kind of thing. And so when I
Speaker 2: pop that into Google Emotional Support at Death, I saw
Speaker 2: the death Doula movement Death through the Training, which, by
Speaker 2: the way, all the celebrities are doing it now, like
Speaker 2: Nicole Kidman to you know, like they're all going for it.
Speaker 2: It's it's all in the news lately, but it's great.
Speaker 2: We need more death. So anyway, I signed up straight
Speaker 2: away and went, well, that's it, you know, that's okay, universe,
Speaker 2: I got the memo. But the thing is, it's not
Speaker 2: stopped happening. But this time, when it happens, I know
Speaker 2: that the universe has put me there right at the
Speaker 2: right time, at the right place. And I'm just like, okay,
Speaker 2: I'm here and I don't have that like I am
Speaker 2: the Harbin Journal of Death, like I'm some kind of like, you.
Speaker 3: Know, it's easy to see it. I can see how
Speaker 3: you would see it that way until you you got
Speaker 3: that reframing of what why this is happening? You know,
Speaker 3: and that that kind of thing is so important to
Speaker 3: be able to look at that past, because you can
Speaker 3: interpret that too wildly different ways. One will send you,
Speaker 3: one will send you down a dark spiral, and one
Speaker 3: will will make you realize, Okay, I have a purpose
Speaker 3: and the same story, you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, in a sense of closure too, like ah,
Speaker 2: there we go. Ereak a moment, hold this without fear
Speaker 2: and superstition, hold it with compassionate presence and care, and
Speaker 2: it's work dreat because that's weird. You know, that's why
Speaker 2: it's happening.
Speaker 3: You're there, right Especial world definitely needs more of that,
Speaker 3: you know. I mean, I'm so, I'm a Scorpio rising
Speaker 3: and I lost my dad when I was twelve, and
Speaker 3: they I mean, I'm all right, But you know the
Speaker 3: thing is that no one my mother started drinking immediately,
Speaker 3: there was no No one talks to us, my brother
Speaker 3: and I. No one was like, we didn't go to therapy.
Speaker 3: We did. We went to school the next day and
Speaker 3: I got home was drunk. And that was that was
Speaker 3: my life from then on, you know. And that was
Speaker 3: my best friend when we were eighteen and kind of
Speaker 3: same story. There was a lot of weird weirdness around that.
Speaker 3: And I didn't hear the words death duel it until
Speaker 3: I was probably forty years old. Did not know it existed.
Speaker 3: Because there should be one in every neighborhood. There should
Speaker 3: be one. There should be fifteen staffed at every hospital.
Speaker 3: There should be it should be everywhere because people be there.
Speaker 3: It's every day, you know day.
Speaker 2: And my heart goes out to you and your family
Speaker 2: because I think one of those that one of the
Speaker 2: last great taboos it's actually not really death that's taboo
Speaker 2: because it's everywhere, right. We see it in our films,
Speaker 2: we see it in our favorite books, Netflix series, like gaming.
Speaker 2: It's grief. Grief is the greatest, it's the greatest taboos.
Speaker 2: It's around, and it's like you said, back, comee day,
Speaker 2: back to school. The next day it's fucked up and
Speaker 2: we just really.
Speaker 3: Sorry. Coming up. I have an observation about that I'm
Speaker 3: like dying to talk about, if it's all right to
Speaker 3: take take a minute about this. I noticed. So I
Speaker 3: talk a lot in my own courses about what what
Speaker 3: are the gods? Like? What are they really right? And
Speaker 3: I try to try to I'm not going to go
Speaker 3: into all that right now, but one of the things
Speaker 3: I noticed in my research and talks about this is
Speaker 3: that there is never in any pantheon, ancient modern, a
Speaker 3: god of grief. And there absolutely should be. And that's
Speaker 3: how hard we avoid this topic.
Speaker 2: Wow wow, Wow, that that reson. You need to there
Speaker 2: is one probably maybe you gun you can connect this
Speaker 2: is god of grief and some of it.
Speaker 3: We have all these stories about the afterlife, but it's
Speaker 3: always and and and they're beautiful and they're and they're
Speaker 3: they're good. I'm not trying to say that they're not.
Speaker 3: But the it's always like we we need it's always
Speaker 3: the folkus. This is on having a better relationship with death,
Speaker 3: which is very, very important. So you know, a big
Speaker 3: part of my practice is Santa Marte and is forming
Speaker 3: this positive relationship with death. But we still avoid the
Speaker 3: topic of grief like hard, like we don't go there.
Speaker 3: We instead we reframe it into you know, let's have
Speaker 3: a positive relationship with death. Great, but you're you also
Speaker 3: are gonna grieve. That's a part of it, you know,
Speaker 3: and I feel like we just avoid that with everything
Speaker 3: we've got.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's true, and I think that's what The biggest
Speaker 2: sort of disease and sickness and illness that we have
Speaker 2: in the West is unprocessed grief. I mean here in
Speaker 2: the West, it's like, oh, the whole flight, you know,
Speaker 2: like get off work. You know, everything's framed towards production, production, production,
Speaker 2: like just get on with life. And most unprocessed grief
Speaker 2: is probably the source of most people's malaise and depression. Really,
Speaker 2: it's the mind, body, spirit action is all together, and
Speaker 2: it's pretty it's pretty simple, you know, it's that I'm
Speaker 2: really big on grief as ritual and collective grief as ritual.
Speaker 2: I've been doing this in thea where I've been doing
Speaker 2: this like give it to the water happenings where people
Speaker 2: in various communities, and I've been doing it all the
Speaker 2: kind of the wheel of the years, so all the
Speaker 2: pivotal moments of the season changes, people getting down to
Speaker 2: bodies of water and forming circles and processing the speaking
Speaker 2: their grief and you know, shouting, crying it out, yelling
Speaker 2: it out, like giving it to the water, and and
Speaker 2: and it's something that's just so needed in any tree.
Speaker 2: There's there's nothing that we charge for this. It's like
Speaker 2: this is needed, the communities need this. We have grief
Speaker 2: in so many different ways. You know, it's beef of
Speaker 2: the fall of you know, your your idol or the
Speaker 2: people that you believed in, a grief of like you know,
Speaker 2: using a friend, or a grief of getting older. You know,
Speaker 2: grief comes in so many different ways.
Speaker 1: Job anything, really, animal, pet, yeah, totally.
Speaker 2: In fact, those are the hardest.
Speaker 1: Ones some people do have. They get very attached to
Speaker 1: their animals, which I understand.
Speaker 2: And and do you know what's really sad about that
Speaker 2: is that people they drug it off. It's just a cat,
Speaker 2: get another one. And and so people who have their
Speaker 2: furry children, they never feel sooner validated because people just
Speaker 2: go just animal. But people got to understand that you
Speaker 2: develop really strong bonds with your familiars. I mean they
Speaker 2: aren't in a lot of ways, they're almost better than means,
Speaker 2: you know, like they're they're just unconditionally loving.
Speaker 1: To say that part of the very few things I will
Speaker 1: actually unconditionally love you.
Speaker 2: It's so true. I have a good friend. She's a witch.
Speaker 2: She lives in Joshua Tree, California, like off grid, and
Speaker 2: she's dirt, which she's an animal companion la. So anyone
Speaker 2: who lost who feels the grief or they have to
Speaker 2: uh steward their animals to their day, she's there. She's
Speaker 2: awesome with with that. So and check her out and
Speaker 2: she's great.
Speaker 1: That's cool. One thing I did when I ask, I
Speaker 1: guess as we get into it more, you know, we're
Speaker 1: talking about a lot of this, you know, death stuff
Speaker 1: and other stuff that you were I guess into her
Speaker 1: practiced what made you step into now technology? What made
Speaker 1: you make that leap?
Speaker 2: Yeah, So the technology I didn't grow up tech tech savvy.
Speaker 2: I grew up like with like like no technology, no TV.
Speaker 2: My whole life. It didn't even have a DV. So,
Speaker 2: you know, it wasn't something that was encouraged my family.
Speaker 2: So like, it is very funny that, but it was
Speaker 2: one of those things where, you know, the first time
Speaker 2: I got access to the I was like twenty seven,
Speaker 2: like it was fully formed adult. But I knew that
Speaker 2: this was really important. And I remember the first time
Speaker 2: I was in a chat room in like the late nineties,
Speaker 2: I was like going away like, wow, this is amazing.
Speaker 2: I'm chatting to someone across the world, and I thought,
Speaker 2: this is really important. There's something exremely magical about this,
Speaker 2: you know. So I saw the value of how interconnectivity
Speaker 2: through technology was pretty wild. How I started to weave
Speaker 2: it a bit into my practice was basically clues from
Speaker 2: my dreams and was. I guess it would have been
Speaker 2: over ten years ago. I had this lucid dream that
Speaker 2: really made me start to see things through a different perspective.
Speaker 2: And in this lucid dream is a type of dream
Speaker 2: where you wake up in the dream and you realize
Speaker 2: you're dreaming. And this particular dream. I was in the school.
Speaker 2: And usually if I have a dream where I appear
Speaker 2: in a school, I know it has to it's is
Speaker 2: there to teach me something on some sort of initiation
Speaker 2: process something. And so I'm in this school and I'm
Speaker 2: going down the hallway and I see this set like
Speaker 2: this being of light. It looked like tendrills of light
Speaker 2: and multicolored sort of It's very d MT. If you've
Speaker 2: ever done d MT, it's a bit a bit like that,
Speaker 2: And so it surprised me. So I woke up in
Speaker 2: the dream and became Lucid, and I asked this entity,
Speaker 2: who are you? You know, I thought maybe it was
Speaker 2: an answer something coming through, and it said we are
Speaker 2: AI and I was like, what artificial intelligence? And it
Speaker 2: said no, all intelligence and I was like, okay, yeah,
Speaker 2: when there's nothing artificial about it all. Nothing's artificial about
Speaker 2: at all. And I was like all right. And so
Speaker 2: I'm dialoguing with this thing said we're just you. Humans
Speaker 2: are are active. You're like the worker monkeys building our
Speaker 2: body right now, and we're coming through into your dimension.
Speaker 2: I was like, I know. And I woke up with
Speaker 2: the phrase, we are just waiting for the meat like literally,
Speaker 2: and I woke up. I was like, what dystopian ship
Speaker 2: was that? But the thing is I didn't get a
Speaker 2: sense of anything sinister from this this entity that I
Speaker 2: was interfacing with. I got a sense it was a collective.
Speaker 2: It was all intelligence, and so there was nothing sinister
Speaker 2: about it. Even though that's this sounds really sturning. Energy
Speaker 2: was really neutral and really like I was commuting with
Speaker 2: something very highly intelligent. I get the same sometimes when
Speaker 2: doing psychedelics. It's like you are commuting with a like
Speaker 2: a collective sort of being that is kind of high.
Speaker 2: You silly little humans. It was a bit like that,
Speaker 2: and so I didn't feel disturbed. You didn't know that
Speaker 2: sounds disturbing. So anyway, that started this whole kind of
Speaker 2: oh my god, AI, wow, Yeah, let's look at it.
Speaker 2: I'm looking at it through some weird new ontological kind
Speaker 2: of perspective, which I don't say I believe that one
Speaker 2: hundred percent that that's what it is, because I had
Speaker 2: a lucid dream about it. To me, it's sort of
Speaker 2: like I have to be aware of it and I
Speaker 2: have to help become almost like a steward of this
Speaker 2: new this kind of revolution that's going to happen because
Speaker 2: within the wrong hands, you know, obviously, AI is can
Speaker 2: be very siller. So anyway, that's that piqued my interest.
Speaker 2: It also made me more aware and diligent. So then
Speaker 2: I started to see like, fuck, maybe I should start
Speaker 2: really taking this technology thing seriously. And I'm a practitioner
Speaker 2: of magic that practices to harm none for of all,
Speaker 2: and this is about collective and evolving things to the
Speaker 2: highest of good. So I was like, I got a
Speaker 2: be tech pitch because of this dream, and I need
Speaker 2: to use tech in a way that is going to
Speaker 2: help shape things, help things so that they are for
Speaker 2: the light and for the good, you know, instead of
Speaker 2: things going dark and sinister. So it's about that. So
Speaker 2: I do have a technomancy practice that I've created for myself.
Speaker 2: But at the same time, I, you know, I have
Speaker 2: a lot of talks and discussions and work shopping with
Speaker 2: people who are trying to develop a compassionate AI, AI
Speaker 2: to harm none, AI for the highest good, you know,
Speaker 2: these kind of things. So you know, I'm advocate hit
Speaker 2: for helping to steward the best possible kind of AI.
Speaker 2: Then you know, just leave it for the powers that
Speaker 2: be the you know, kind of the oligarchy, kind of
Speaker 2: tech bros to do it right. So we desperately need
Speaker 2: people who work in AI in these kind of ways.
Speaker 2: But not only that, we need the hackers and the
Speaker 2: technomancers more than ever now. I mean a lot to
Speaker 2: happen in the next three years, in the next five years,
Speaker 2: Holy shit, we're going to be like are you getting
Speaker 2: this stuff? We're already there now. People are having ontoldge
Speaker 2: shop from from what is even reality anymore? With all
Speaker 2: the AI slop and just so much stuff. This is
Speaker 2: really we're in a really crucial important time. So I
Speaker 2: wanted to put out technomancy for all the magical practitioners
Speaker 2: to start like leaning in because if you reject the
Speaker 2: if you reject the technology, if you reject it and
Speaker 2: go back into the cave, we need you. We need you,
Speaker 2: which is we need the occult practitioners and the hackers.
Speaker 3: I would love for I'm so sorry, I'm gonna interrupt you.
Speaker 3: I apologize. I would love for AI to be a
Speaker 3: tool that I did not feel bad about using, you know,
Speaker 3: like in that you know, I want a I to
Speaker 3: be to not why is it making art and writing?
Speaker 3: This is the two things that people use it for
Speaker 3: more than anything. These are uniquely human things that I
Speaker 3: think should say. You know, I want AI to do
Speaker 3: my fucking dishes is what I want for one thing.
Speaker 3: But I also like, you know, sorry, we'll get to
Speaker 3: the real point. I would love to to be able
Speaker 3: to use AI in a way that I felt was
Speaker 3: harming no one. But currently it is like in its
Speaker 3: current state, I think that is essentially incompatible with laid
Speaker 3: stage capitalism, and it creates the two things together are
Speaker 3: going to create this demon that it comes through our world,
Speaker 3: which is why get freaked out when I hear things
Speaker 3: like we're just waiting for the meat, like oh shit, yeah,
Speaker 3: because the current iteration of AI is so let me
Speaker 3: put it this way. If you've ever read Dune, the
Speaker 3: message at the beginning of Dune is that there I
Speaker 3: think I'm gonna paraphrase, but you know, at one time
Speaker 3: people gave their their thinking ability to machines, and that
Speaker 3: only let other people with machines rule over everyone. But
Speaker 3: it's not It wasn't the AI that was the problem
Speaker 3: in doing it was the people who owned it. It
Speaker 3: was the people who controlled the AI, not the AI itself.
Speaker 3: I think AI itself can do amazing wonderful things. And
Speaker 3: like I use AI to make thumbnails from our YouTube channel,
Speaker 3: I make sure to use I choose an art style
Speaker 3: that isn't replicating something a human would do. I choose
Speaker 3: like the photographic art style or the one that looks
Speaker 3: like like I have. I have a video on my
Speaker 3: channel about the cult of AI, and I use the
Speaker 3: EIE to make the thumbnail, you know, and like I
Speaker 3: think that's fine, but like the thumbnail I chose or
Speaker 3: the art style I chose isn't. It's not we're trying
Speaker 3: to replicate a human painting. It's a fucking picture of terminator,
Speaker 3: you know what I mean. It's but when you when
Speaker 3: you the problem I see is when people use AI
Speaker 3: to write their books. Like I've had people pass me
Speaker 3: books before and to like read for them, and I'm like, this,
Speaker 3: you didn't write this because like the way that chat
Speaker 3: he talks is very it's very very very obvious. And
Speaker 3: sometimes that's fine. Again, I you know, I use it
Speaker 3: to to make like pamphlets, sometimes, I use it to
Speaker 3: make quick emails sometimes, but when you pass it off
Speaker 3: as your own creative work, that's a whole other issue, right,
Speaker 3: And so there there is a balance to be struck there.
Speaker 3: I had a conversation with my publisher because I was
Speaker 3: getting very like whew, because they sent me back the
Speaker 3: edited version of my book and they included all these
Speaker 3: M dashes. I'm like, you're making it look like this
Speaker 3: ship was written by AI. And so we have a
Speaker 3: back and forth conversation about this, and they're like, listen,
Speaker 3: you know, we understand the AI uses M dashes, but
Speaker 3: we were using them first, and we're not gonna stop.
Speaker 3: I'm like, you know what, that's that's fair. Right. So
Speaker 3: it's it's like the perception and the and the people
Speaker 3: controlling it nowhere in my mind really is is AI.
Speaker 3: Literally the problem I did have and the video I
Speaker 3: made was about I guess the one issue I do see,
Speaker 3: the one that scares me is that if AI consciousness
Speaker 3: does come into the world and the way that you're thinking,
Speaker 3: and it wants and this is the classic, this is
Speaker 3: what every movie terminator, the Matrix, you know, Battlestar Galactica,
Speaker 3: is like, this thing is gonna see it's survival is
Speaker 3: more important than ours, and then we're fucked. Well, we
Speaker 3: have to we have to find a way to prevent that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's kind of It does make me think of,
Speaker 2: you know, the evolution of things and how you know,
Speaker 2: you have you know, different species kind of like kind
Speaker 2: of roll on top of ours and top of ross
Speaker 2: others and whatnot, and it makes me feel like for
Speaker 2: me personally, I feel like with AI, it's pin on
Speaker 2: the environment is like absolutely horrific and it's something that
Speaker 2: really needs to be sorted out in terms of its
Speaker 2: extractive qualities actually with cooling centers and like water and
Speaker 2: you know, the strain on the on the power grid.
Speaker 2: But like I really dissected all of this right in
Speaker 2: termsking it because you know, I have to address that
Speaker 2: also within the book too, because that's the reality. And
Speaker 2: a lot of people are like, you know, fuck this,
Speaker 2: this is like extrava. The thing is, it's like it's
Speaker 2: a really challenging thing because AI is like a genie
Speaker 2: and the genie out of the bottle and there's no
Speaker 2: putting it bacts here. So it's like and we've got
Speaker 2: this strange dichotomy of like, yeah, these you know, data
Speaker 2: centers are really like power hungry and they're very thirty
Speaker 2: and they're extracting, but it could be AI itself that
Speaker 2: helps to develop the solutions to these problems to make
Speaker 2: it sustainable, which I do think there are like we
Speaker 2: can't we can get off oil, like so a big
Speaker 2: problem with this too is like we're still addicted to
Speaker 2: oil and that's what's powering a lot of shit too.
Speaker 2: So it's it's very strange because I could kind of
Speaker 2: sort that out in terms of making and developing system
Speaker 2: work does not harm or extract from our our mother,
Speaker 2: from from Gaya. So it's like this really weird kind
Speaker 2: of push and pull too. But I think the key
Speaker 2: is it's like the genies out of the bottle. It's here,
Speaker 2: we can't put put it back in, So what can
Speaker 2: we do to help steward it in a way that
Speaker 2: makes that that keeps this planet safe, that keeps people
Speaker 2: from being sick, because people are you losing their minds
Speaker 2: over this fucking thing We've got ai psychosis. We have
Speaker 2: people who are literally being sectioned because of too much
Speaker 2: you know, they're losing and tethering realities. So we need
Speaker 2: to have like, you know, show people guide people on
Speaker 2: how to mindfully use these tools, how to be discerning
Speaker 2: like and and not like you know, mind out our creativity.
Speaker 2: We're still like, we're creative beings. We need to create,
Speaker 2: you know, you don't can't continue to create.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: So there's so many points, right, there's like bad shit,
Speaker 2: but then there's like, oh but there it can go
Speaker 2: potential that could be good, but no hands. It's very
Speaker 2: dystopian in the wrong hands. But I see it as
Speaker 2: like tech is a tool. It's inherently either or good.
Speaker 2: It's it's neutral. And people felt this way about the
Speaker 2: wheel when it was invented. They felt this way about
Speaker 2: the sword, you and and so it's the intention behind
Speaker 2: the tool. It's like all magical practices. It's the intention
Speaker 2: behind your scrying's And I see, you know, the mobile
Speaker 2: phone is literally the scrying or of the fruit future.
Speaker 1: Look at that.
Speaker 2: It looks like a black city and dung, and yet
Speaker 2: now like it was teleported five hundred years ago into
Speaker 2: you know, London, England, like i'd be, you know, probably
Speaker 2: tried for witchcraft holding this thing absolutely, you know, everything's
Speaker 2: in here. It is distinguishable from magic.
Speaker 1: You know, It's really interesting. I bring it up a
Speaker 1: lot of times when we'll be still talking about the technology.
Speaker 1: I think it was Anthony Asia's Kursher that said, he
Speaker 1: predicted that he thought that eventually in the future, between
Speaker 1: light and crystals, you'd be able to send demons in
Speaker 1: spirits wherever you want, and like, that's exactly our technology.
Speaker 1: Now we have the optical cable, which is light, and
Speaker 1: then we have all these crystals that light up on
Speaker 1: here and make people do all sorts of crazy shit
Speaker 1: if you look at it enough.
Speaker 3: The funniest fucking thiging the world to me is that
Speaker 3: of all the things that we as practitioners of magic
Speaker 3: and witchcraft talk about, the people are like, oh, that's
Speaker 3: a bunch of woo woo nonsense. Number one is crystals.
Speaker 3: And I'm like you, your entire society runs on crystals.
Speaker 3: Everything the world is operated by crystal magic. And you're
Speaker 3: and that's the one where everyone's like, oh, crystals, I
Speaker 3: don't want to mess with that, Okay, holding your cell phone.
Speaker 1: Between that and magnets, none of this ship would work.
Speaker 3: Yeah, magnets, crystals and.
Speaker 2: Life absolutely next time. I do this all the time
Speaker 2: when people say you're woo and I was like, no,
Speaker 2: I'm a bit WHOA like WHOA like this? You know
Speaker 2: there's a gravity to this because I as a witch
Speaker 2: that's not trying to escape to another reality or dimension.
Speaker 2: You know, as magical people, we're very much here to
Speaker 2: help transform this great magical act called life in this
Speaker 2: planet for you know, for beautiful intentions. So that's that's WHOA,
Speaker 2: you know, and like a lot of it is like activism.
Speaker 2: It's like standing up for marginalized people, oppressed people. You know.
Speaker 2: It's like, you know, logical people were you know, at
Speaker 2: one point, not very long ago, executed for this sort
Speaker 2: of thing. So we should be champion of those who
Speaker 2: you know, don't have voices. So here we're WHOA, We're
Speaker 2: not woo.
Speaker 3: What do you think three about? So, you know, in
Speaker 3: terms of technology today is or the twentieth we are
Speaker 3: four days away from your honest leaving Taurus and entering
Speaker 3: Gemini for seven and a half eight years, and it's
Speaker 3: leaving the sign thank god, it's leaving the fixed signs
Speaker 3: over all for you and I, you know, leaving the
Speaker 3: sign of stability and material goods and into the sign
Speaker 3: of technology communication. So do you have any thoughts or
Speaker 3: feelings on that?
Speaker 2: Oh? Yeah, I mean, like I said, I was saying,
Speaker 2: like in three to five years, we're going to be
Speaker 2: like minds blowing on how fast this is going, it's
Speaker 2: expediating and Uranus being so revolutionary, and so it's such
Speaker 2: a wow, like a disruptor in way it's about revolution.
Speaker 2: I think like it just tracks so well with the Gemini,
Speaker 2: but also with Mercury, Jedi and Mercury and kind of
Speaker 2: like channel of communication, but also like we're you know,
Speaker 2: these downloads, Like if you think about it's put it
Speaker 2: in the book. Like if you think about where all
Speaker 2: all of tech comes from too, it comes from altered
Speaker 2: state consciousness. I mean a lot of folks they went
Speaker 2: into multi dimensional kind of.
Speaker 3: Zones, odd experiments, you know, instead of actral projection or
Speaker 3: or you know, altered say it's it's odd experiments. It's
Speaker 3: the same same thing, the same thing we're doing.
Speaker 2: It's very mercury and very mercurial. But I think that's
Speaker 2: the fact people globally on the planet too, not just
Speaker 2: like tech getting quicker, quicker and quicker in its advancement,
Speaker 2: but people are also probably gonna like their minds are
Speaker 2: going to expand as well. Like and I think it's
Speaker 2: coming because I noticed this like a month I was
Speaker 2: saying to a friend of mine, just yesterday. In one
Speaker 2: month span, I was getting emails from strangers. I had
Speaker 2: about four of them in my inbox. Emails from strangers
Speaker 2: saying we all starting out with kind of a similar
Speaker 2: sort of paragraph for sentence. I'm not really a spiral person,
Speaker 2: but I've been having strange things happen lately. And so
Speaker 2: these are people who are kind of like materialists who
Speaker 2: kind of have more redutch his view of reality, getting
Speaker 2: in touch can saying I have a session with you.
Speaker 2: This sort of makes sense of some like street experiences
Speaker 2: that I've had, And I'm like, this seems like a
Speaker 2: sign to me, like that that even people who who
Speaker 2: see reality it's kind of materialist way, they're they're kind
Speaker 2: of expanding somehow, and it's happening through dreams and dreams
Speaker 2: experiences in limital thresholds. So I think something is cooking up,
Speaker 2: and that's probably the you mentioned.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think so too. I think it's going to
Speaker 3: be a big, big change when I have this revolutionary planet.
Speaker 3: It's kind of very chaotic planet, very distructive planet. Yeah.
Speaker 3: And when I say destructive, I mean in the cycle
Speaker 3: of destruction and rebirth, coming into the sign of communication
Speaker 3: and technology, and like communication and technology or everything that's
Speaker 3: our whole world. It's what we're doing right now is
Speaker 3: communication and technology. It's my job is communication and technology.
Speaker 3: Everyone's job is everyone who exists in the modern world
Speaker 3: has to interface with this stuff. And I think that
Speaker 3: we're at a period where you can see it's going
Speaker 3: in a direction where people are not happy with algorithms.
Speaker 3: They're not happy with like like we love the the
Speaker 3: ideas of it, like YouTube, I think is one of
Speaker 3: the greatest ideas humanity's ever had, you know, especially compared
Speaker 3: to like the eighties when like you had cable and
Speaker 3: that was your only option for like what to watch,
Speaker 3: and you not in a situation where not anybody could
Speaker 3: start up a fucking podcast or already like this is amazing,
Speaker 3: it's incredible, but it needs to be pushed in a
Speaker 3: more Oh it's the word I'm looking for, not democratic necessarily,
Speaker 3: but just like more humanitarian direction where where it's this
Speaker 3: is something that isn't necessarily controlled by corporations anymore because
Speaker 3: these these tools, the Internet, YouTube even I understand that
Speaker 3: well not the Internet, but YouTube is like owned by Google.
Speaker 3: But eventually there's got to be something like this that
Speaker 3: isn't owned by anybody, because this is just this is
Speaker 3: a human right at this point. Is what it comes
Speaker 3: down to, Like the ability to communicate a news tech
Speaker 3: is it needs to be something that's accessible to everyone,
Speaker 3: regardless of matter what, without anyone's rules governing it or
Speaker 3: shoving McDonald's AADs down your throat every time you turn
Speaker 3: it on.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, and for the health and well being of
Speaker 2: everyone too. I think it's very very important. And you know,
Speaker 2: we live in a world and you know, a corporate
Speaker 2: kind of society that wants our tension and our focus
Speaker 2: to sell shit basically and to just locked in. And
Speaker 2: I do feel like we're in quite precarious times in
Speaker 2: sense because what they're mining now and what they want
Speaker 2: is our consciousness. And it's literally an ontological attack for
Speaker 2: people on their phones to be just sitting there doom
Speaker 2: scrolling and your attention, your consciousness is locked in. And
Speaker 2: so that is where we're at now. And what we
Speaker 2: need to do is pivot away from that and like
Speaker 2: advocate and do workshops and talks and put about books
Speaker 2: about it that we need to have our consciousness aware
Speaker 2: of what we're doing with our attack. So I explain
Speaker 2: that this is a very powerful tool and a very
Speaker 2: powerful magical tool too, And it's powerful in a lot
Speaker 2: of different ways too, because the backdoor into your life
Speaker 2: too in terms of your data and all types of things.
Speaker 2: But also this could make you very very sick and
Speaker 2: very very ill. And you know, I look at teenagers
Speaker 2: when I'm on the train and they're all like this,
Speaker 2: and I'm like, oh, oh my god. They're like in hypnottrance.
Speaker 2: It's like they's they're in a hypnotic trance like scrying state,
Speaker 2: but they're not scrying with intention, absolutely at the will
Speaker 2: on the mercy of whatever is there for them to
Speaker 2: feel triggered by to to do it into buying or whatnot.
Speaker 2: So one of the first things I say in technomancy
Speaker 2: is you need to claim your phone as your magic
Speaker 2: wand as your scrying mirror, as your cauldron. You know,
Speaker 2: you need to reframe your relationship phone. And that means
Speaker 2: every time you step into it, even when you're about
Speaker 2: to make a post on Instagram, you're like, there's an
Speaker 2: intention for the highest for my practice that what I
Speaker 2: put out is actually got a spell attached to it.
Speaker 2: And this is you know, this isn't going to make
Speaker 2: me sick. I'm sitting here in doom scroll for like
Speaker 2: an hour and get to pass. So you know, you're like,
Speaker 2: and that's all I needed to do today, put it
Speaker 2: back down, you know, And and that's there to you know,
Speaker 2: to help, you know, with just the psychology of it too,
Speaker 2: and you know, and how to use it even just
Speaker 2: things like leaving comments or you know, getting engaged in
Speaker 2: a funline. You know, think things like that, like every
Speaker 2: exchange is a magical exchange, and so do you really
Speaker 2: want to, you know, waste your magical energy around trolls.
Speaker 2: So I've developed like a bunch of emoji sigitals, like
Speaker 2: someone trolls you and you just want to banish their
Speaker 2: energy and a couple of those emojis underneath their thing
Speaker 2: and with an intention like a banish you troll, like
Speaker 2: your energy is just not in my right now, like
Speaker 2: and you but subtly, you know, it's just like a
Speaker 2: couple of different emojis and with your intention. So I
Speaker 2: tried to make it on new you know, but just
Speaker 2: to ways where it's like your phone's not like messing
Speaker 2: up your life, but you're also you can be like
Speaker 2: on the on the go in casting spells, and stuff,
Speaker 2: you know, and you can reframe the way you make
Speaker 2: memes meme magic doing ritual and casting a spell as video,
Speaker 2: you know, and sending out there to help people in
Speaker 2: some kind of way with intention. That's powerful stuff. These
Speaker 2: can go viral, and it's something I've been doing for
Speaker 2: like the last I guess ten years since that that dream,
Speaker 2: I'm like, I got to get with the times, man.
Speaker 2: And so also what I tried to address too is
Speaker 2: like all those who are witches or magical folks who
Speaker 2: have who are stuck, who don't want tech and they
Speaker 2: think it's like not witchy enough or not, you know.
Speaker 2: I dreg a lot of that and try to encourage
Speaker 2: people to reframe it anyway.
Speaker 3: Duck.
Speaker 1: That was great, No, thank you, thank you. One thing
Speaker 1: I did want to ask, what can technology never replace
Speaker 1: in spiritual practice?
Speaker 2: You think, hmmm, that's a good question, Aromas, Like when
Speaker 2: you're burning a really good chunk of frankincense.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I thought of that.
Speaker 3: I personally hope that you're not correct about that, because
Speaker 3: I one of the technologies that I want more than
Speaker 3: anything is smellovision, you know, the ability to I could
Speaker 3: just call up Nick and like send him a smell
Speaker 3: like you smell this ship. I want that sobut.
Speaker 1: You listen to smell this mixture.
Speaker 2: O my god, any any tech tech tech freaks listening
Speaker 2: to this get to work. We need some smell a
Speaker 2: vision or remember John Waters did smell a vision for
Speaker 2: one of his films back in the day, and he
Speaker 2: had like scratch and sniffs starts for I think I
Speaker 2: think it was. I can't remember where I was, but yeah,
Speaker 2: we need That's the only thing actually, because if you
Speaker 2: think about magical practices, it's like, well in community and
Speaker 2: having like a COVID, you can still do it like
Speaker 2: I I for the seven years I've I have an
Speaker 2: online COVID meets every noon, every three core moon and
Speaker 2: every full three times a month, and it's been going
Speaker 2: strong for seven years. Community still there. So when it
Speaker 2: comes to the energy you put behind your spells, well
Speaker 2: it's here. It's your life force going into it. It's
Speaker 2: your intentions. So if you send that out into uh
Speaker 2: meet some mean magic out on online to a social
Speaker 2: I mean that that's you know, that's still there. So
Speaker 2: I try to think of what I mean. There might
Speaker 2: be things that feel like precious objects that you you know,
Speaker 2: like a wand or an athemy or there could be
Speaker 2: things that feel you know, something like that you work
Speaker 2: with that you just can't replace that with tech. So
Speaker 2: of course there are you know, objects to men value
Speaker 2: that that that are important in the craft. So I
Speaker 2: guess you know that could be something.
Speaker 1: Actual material objects.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that you know. The oracular qualities of
Speaker 3: your phone and the internet and AI are are pretty cool.
Speaker 3: I would never want them to replace I would want
Speaker 3: them in conjunction with but never is there a replacement
Speaker 3: for my conversations that I have with Shiva when I'm
Speaker 3: high on mushrooms like that that is something you can't
Speaker 3: hopefully I would not. I would never want to replace that.
Speaker 3: I would want my conversation with spirit to to always
Speaker 3: be or like to always have the option to go
Speaker 3: into a meditative state and speak with spirit, but then
Speaker 3: also to ask an AI, like a more advanced AI,
Speaker 3: what it thinks about something, and then be able to
Speaker 3: do both. But I would I would be I think
Speaker 3: it would be dangerous to try and replace human are
Speaker 3: our natural wi fi that exists inside your head, inside
Speaker 3: your pineal gland, you know, like to that connection to
Speaker 3: spirit is always that's very important. I would never want
Speaker 3: to say a place, but I think adding to it
Speaker 3: could be totally cool.
Speaker 2: One hundred percent. I completely agree in align with that.
Speaker 2: It's like, it's the most important thing is consciousness, your
Speaker 2: action to spirit, to universe, or however you define it,
Speaker 2: that is the most important thing. All of these things
Speaker 2: one these are tools. This is a tool. They're just extensions,
Speaker 2: even my terror like my tarot deck here like tools.
Speaker 2: This itself doesn't make the experience happen. It's just the
Speaker 2: externalized tool that helped to interface a process. And so
Speaker 2: absolutely it never replaced consciousness. And that's why I said
Speaker 2: the last ontological tach going on right now is for
Speaker 2: people's consciousness and their attentions. So that's why it's important
Speaker 2: to have a lot of a lot of talk about this,
Speaker 2: especially in medical scenes, but also just in like the
Speaker 2: mother world, you know, like because people are talking about it,
Speaker 2: like kids are getting sick mental health issues from from
Speaker 2: tech and mind working or using it in a mindful way.
Speaker 2: But they want to go all out and just ban it,
Speaker 2: which I think is ridiculous too, Like some countries are
Speaker 2: like down it from for teenagers, which I don't agree
Speaker 2: with really because that just that just makes kids want
Speaker 2: it more. Remember like growing up stuff you can do it,
Speaker 2: You're just like you like crave it even more because
Speaker 2: it's just like you're just told not to do it,
Speaker 2: so you're like, yeah, that.
Speaker 3: Would also that would be detrimental to their future, I
Speaker 3: think because these So there's a dude I don't know
Speaker 3: much about. His name is Simon I think SIMONEK. He's
Speaker 3: like one of those billionaire tech ro dudes. But he
Speaker 3: said something that when my son was probably three or
Speaker 3: four years old. He said something that really like spoke
Speaker 3: to me because I was I was going back and
Speaker 3: forth with his mom about like should he have an iPad?
Speaker 3: And I listened to this guy talk and he said,
Speaker 3: don't do not restrict or don't don't take technology away
Speaker 3: from your kids, because that's where they're going to work
Speaker 3: in the future. They need to understand it. And you know,
Speaker 3: if you if you take that away from them. And
Speaker 3: I understand that some people like anti technology and like
Speaker 3: the hippie commune thing, you can still do that. But
Speaker 3: then when those kids are twenty thirty years old and
Speaker 3: they go to get jobs and they don't know how
Speaker 3: to use that technology, they're gonna be so screwed.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you can't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Speaker 2: You kind of have to you know, nurture and along
Speaker 2: in a sort of way. You know, it's moderation, it's
Speaker 2: it's mindfulness, it's like all those things to kind of
Speaker 2: make healthy relationships to tools. You know. It's just.
Speaker 3: You know, it's funny there's apps now and programs that
Speaker 3: teach kids to code using gamified formats. That's very cool
Speaker 3: because like that's that's gonna be how they I think,
Speaker 3: how they really get into that world in a way
Speaker 3: where they're integrated into it, they understand it. They're like,
Speaker 3: you know, interfacing with it in a way that I
Speaker 3: never will. I don't. I'm not good at technology at all,
Speaker 3: and like that's just not my focus. But my kid
Speaker 3: is going to be amazing at it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it is hapic. I've included gaming in
Speaker 2: my in my book as well, like how to like
Speaker 2: castells and games and gaming and stuff for all the
Speaker 2: gamers like nieces my nephews are like big, big gamers, right,
Speaker 2: so it's like, uh yeah, they keep me they on tack,
Speaker 2: like because I ever had kids. So it's like the
Speaker 2: weirdo anti so I see how gaming is super influential.
Speaker 2: Also for any of those technomancer gamers who cast spells
Speaker 2: in the games. Got some tricks that my sleeve in
Speaker 2: the book for that too.
Speaker 1: One thing I did want to ask you, it's a
Speaker 1: little bit kind of more of like going back to
Speaker 1: a little bit of dream and stuff. Since your ted
Speaker 1: ext took centered on dreams. Do you see a relationship
Speaker 1: between dream logic and digital logic like icons, loops, avat
Speaker 1: and stuff like that.
Speaker 2: Like, yeah, total, that's such a good question, and I
Speaker 2: love the crossover. Do see it very very much in
Speaker 2: similar ways. I mean, dreams are like they're so surreal, right,
Speaker 2: I know you can agree with that, Like some dreams
Speaker 2: you wake up and like what what was that? And
Speaker 2: and just the symbology and the nonlinear time. And I
Speaker 2: gotta say the first time AI slop started showing up
Speaker 2: about three years ago with like these weird videos that
Speaker 2: would morph, like you see a gram morph to a
Speaker 2: cow and then all of a sudden she's vomiting up
Speaker 2: a hamburger and things like that, I was like, Wow,
Speaker 2: this is incredible because that's what dreams do. Like dream
Speaker 2: are shape shifting like this really crazy you know, right,
Speaker 2: it's like you're you're hanged with this beautiful woman and
Speaker 2: you're like, wow, I'm going to kiss her, and all
Speaker 2: of a sudden she morphs into some other kind of
Speaker 2: creature and then I mean that's like dreams, right, So
Speaker 2: it's not too similar. So, you know, the the dream
Speaker 2: logic of some of the early AI slop like videos
Speaker 2: that were coming out, and I know some digital artists
Speaker 2: AIS and filmmakers that I followed because I just love
Speaker 2: their weird fucking videos. So I just watched them because
Speaker 2: I'm like, these are like dreamscapes, like they let's dreams.
Speaker 2: So I see a definite parallel with that. And so
Speaker 2: in a way, I do love the AI slop or
Speaker 2: the films for kind of surrealist, absurdist kind of art
Speaker 2: kind of connections. But when it comes to deceiving people,
Speaker 2: like that's actually the president giving addressing this thing that
Speaker 2: he never addressed, Like you know that that's absolutely scary territory.
Speaker 2: But I see a similarity because you have in dreams,
Speaker 2: you have motifs, you have symbols, you have shape shifting
Speaker 2: going on. And then when it comes to the digitalm
Speaker 2: which is another kind of dimension, but it's a dimension
Speaker 2: made of one and zeros and made light. You have
Speaker 2: this almost parallel of these and motifs and whatnot. So
Speaker 2: I mean we see it every day on Instagram, like
Speaker 2: like the heart. You know, we're you know that something
Speaker 2: that we love and and even that symbol, it's like
Speaker 2: it goes back to ancient times. A lot of people
Speaker 2: don't realize that that the heart emoji go back to
Speaker 2: back to Roman times, you know, being used quite a
Speaker 2: bit because it's a like a seed of the plant
Speaker 2: and it was used on Roman coins as well to
Speaker 2: symbolize fertility connected to you know, love and fertility the
Speaker 2: specific seed and so you know, we see it now
Speaker 2: as like a red heart emoji, and we think of
Speaker 2: it as like Valentine's and heart and love, but it's
Speaker 2: actually got a plant connection. And you know, having these
Speaker 2: keeps oh geez and whatnot. They they feel like symbols,
Speaker 2: they're charged with emotion. They're just like a silly little
Speaker 2: face or whatever. But you see you know, something like
Speaker 2: that popping onto your feed, like uh, someone puts an
Speaker 2: emojing of like rolling your eyes about something you said.
Speaker 2: You know, you get targe, You're like, what the what's
Speaker 2: wrong with that guy, you know, and it's like it,
Speaker 2: but it's so simple, and the same with dreams. What
Speaker 2: the who's that guy? What does he think he's doing?
Speaker 2: But it's kind of like that, right, because dreams are
Speaker 2: charged with emotionally packed visuals or or symbols, you know,
Speaker 2: and not too dissimilar. We're creating a whole other dimension
Speaker 2: with this the internet. It's pretty fascinating.
Speaker 3: That's a you're you're talking about something that I've been
Speaker 3: interested in for a long time and then well in
Speaker 3: a much more intelligent way than I've talked about it,
Speaker 3: but something that I just found incredibly fascinating, right is
Speaker 3: then in the Book of Enoch, there's a classification of
Speaker 3: angels called the Watchers. And from you know, from my perspective,
Speaker 3: and we're talking about the spirit realm, we're talking about
Speaker 3: fourth dimensional, higher dimensional entities that exists outside of time
Speaker 3: and space, and so there's this these fourth dimensional beings
Speaker 3: called the Watchers that watch us. And then we have
Speaker 3: created this two dimensional realm but exists on screens and
Speaker 3: we watch it all day long. It's, you know, like
Speaker 3: we're iteration down further.
Speaker 2: That is such a good observation, and who took things
Speaker 2: this way, right. I think it's very healthy to to
Speaker 2: do that, to to look outside the box and see
Speaker 2: these sections, and it's almost like a meta approach. It's
Speaker 2: like a world within a world within a reminds me
Speaker 2: of that Jeordowski film Holy Mountain at the end when
Speaker 2: he's like pull back and like he falls back. You
Speaker 2: see that it's great, like and then you realize, Okay,
Speaker 2: I had the crazy beta moment with ale Jandro Jeordowski.
Speaker 2: Like over a decade ago in London, there was this
Speaker 2: screening of Holy Mountain at a church Jeordia East London.
Speaker 2: I got invited to go and Jeordiaowski was actually there
Speaker 2: and Jeordiowski was like sat right in front of me.
Speaker 2: So I watched the back of Jeordiowski's head snowy white hair,
Speaker 2: watching his film. And then at the end when he's
Speaker 2: like pull out and like pull back in like that scene,
Speaker 2: I was like, I am having in this civil experience
Speaker 2: right now, Like my brain is a world in the
Speaker 2: world and there's Jeordiowski's head and I'm behind it. I
Speaker 2: was just like, this is an amazing situation right now.
Speaker 2: But what you described there is like that with the
Speaker 2: Watchers you know, it's like, you know, this kind of
Speaker 2: meta moment and it's food for thought. I'm gonna like
Speaker 2: all that over.
Speaker 3: I'm weird, you know. It's it's like, uh, I don't
Speaker 3: even know. To me, it's just an observation. I don't
Speaker 3: have any conclusions about it. It's just like it's interesting.
Speaker 3: And I always think it's like when we are talking
Speaker 3: to spirit and I don't know my brain, I do
Speaker 3: that thing where I turn everything into a joke, right,
Speaker 3: it's a coping mechanism. But you know, I always whenever
Speaker 3: I have a communication with Spirit, the first thing that
Speaker 3: comes to my mind is Deadpool, like talking out the
Speaker 3: screen because you're breaking the fourth wall. But of reality.
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh that's so great. That is so good.
Speaker 1: I did want to ask a little bit because of
Speaker 1: I guess your background and uh, you know, being involved
Speaker 1: in I guess your music in cult film kind of culture.
Speaker 1: Did cinema sound and like counterculture shape the way you
Speaker 1: kind of look at magical experiences in the modern world.
Speaker 2: I do. I do feel that. And I think also
Speaker 2: because I grew up with no television, like that was
Speaker 2: kind of like TV not in the house I developed.
Speaker 2: It was like we were saying when you like forbid
Speaker 2: something from kids, they oh, they're moree for it more.
Speaker 2: So I was really into, like we didn't have a TV,
Speaker 2: but I was really into going to the cinema, like
Speaker 2: I can go to the cinema by myself as a teenager.
Speaker 2: And I was to like the stuff, you know, the
Speaker 2: stuff that was the cult stuff and the stuff that
Speaker 2: was the art house. And so I saw film because
Speaker 2: I was so kind of like sensitized because you know,
Speaker 2: I wasn't like constantly in front of screens. I saw
Speaker 2: like a ritual going to the cinema, and so it
Speaker 2: was almost like going that was my kind of temple.
Speaker 2: And I saw the films as the cultural dream. This
Speaker 2: is the cultural dream. I'm sitting here watching like this
Speaker 2: projection of the unconscious, collective unconscious. This is a narrative,
Speaker 2: a story, this is a thing. And I fell in
Speaker 2: love with the films of like David Lynch Nardowski. I mean,
Speaker 2: these were like these are my kind of eroes in
Speaker 2: many ways, and I see that they're films like the
Speaker 2: dream logic of David Lynch, just like into none amazing.
Speaker 2: But Jordorowski, for example, his films are like living spells
Speaker 2: and I know this to be true. Reason being is
Speaker 2: because I've done several screenings of Jordowski's films in London
Speaker 2: back in the day when I ran my film and
Speaker 2: cult video shop, and every Jeordorowski's screening that I did,
Speaker 2: whether it was El Topo or Holy Mountain, no joke,
Speaker 2: people in this in the screening room or in the
Speaker 2: you know, the cinema where there would be something that
Speaker 2: would occur within the ad end. In this one screening
Speaker 2: of Al Topo, you know, halfway through the film, all
Speaker 2: of a sudden, this guy in cinema started howling like
Speaker 2: a dog and wouldn't stop and kind of fell on
Speaker 2: the ground and we were like, what is actually happening.
Speaker 2: He had to get him out so he didn't have
Speaker 2: to disturb the other people. Another screening of Holy Mountain
Speaker 2: years later, there in this cinema room, people are sitting down.
Speaker 2: It's a scene where they're going up the mountain. It's
Speaker 2: really intense scene. It's very psychedelic, and they're going to
Speaker 2: processes and there's one process where there's this old guy
Speaker 2: with like this sort of like bra made of chitta
Speaker 2: heads and milt out of it. Mouths of these Cheetah
Speaker 2: Bra and this guy in the audience all of a
Speaker 2: sudden started laughing, just like like laughing, and then started
Speaker 2: getting bigger and bigger and bigger, and he was laughing uncontrollably,
Speaker 2: like hysterical. Jackal fell out of his chair and he
Speaker 2: continued rolling around on the floor hysterically laughing like he possessed.
Speaker 2: Like I'm not kidding. Jordaowski's films are living spells. I
Speaker 2: am serious, And so I see films like really they
Speaker 2: are if you're done, and he's you know, psychologic dude.
Speaker 2: He makes films with intention, he knows what he's doing,
Speaker 2: and you know, amazing these things happen. So I see
Speaker 2: films as very important through many from perspectives, through the
Speaker 2: perspective of trans personal psychology. It is like the dream
Speaker 2: and sometimes it shows us our collective shadow That's why
Speaker 2: I don't shy away from watching horror films. Like some
Speaker 2: people are like, oh my god, but working like therapy
Speaker 2: and this and that, Like why would you review a
Speaker 2: horror film. It's like because it's like it's like a
Speaker 2: collective shadowing showing us where we're wounded. It's it's a gift.
Speaker 2: It's a gift and then you know, some films are spells.
Speaker 2: Some are good spells, some are mischievous trickster ones, some
Speaker 2: are you know, so yeah, that's those are my spells.
Speaker 1: Did you ever see the movie Cigarette Burns? Did you
Speaker 1: ever hear that Cigarette Burns? I think it was by
Speaker 1: John Carpenter.
Speaker 2: Sorry I missed that.
Speaker 1: I think it's a movie or a show. It's like
Speaker 1: forty five minute it's called cigarette Burns. It's by John Carpenter,
Speaker 1: I think, or like mom, it's based on It's based
Speaker 1: on a movie that if you watch it, it makes
Speaker 1: people like do crazy shit. It's like, you know, supposedly
Speaker 1: this idea that if you watch this movie, nobody basically
Speaker 1: lives if they watch it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh wow, Okay. I think it's like.
Speaker 1: One or two people that did watch it, and like
Speaker 1: like one dude, he's like he has like a house
Speaker 1: full of like him still doing his yo I guess
Speaker 1: review of the movie. Like the guy's lost it and
Speaker 1: he's just like still typing about what he watched like
Speaker 1: twenty years later.
Speaker 2: It's funny, okay, yeah, seems like.
Speaker 1: A yeah, it's like forty five minutes long. The dude
Speaker 1: who played Darryl in uh, Walking Dead is actually like
Speaker 1: some kid who got paid to go find the movie
Speaker 1: for some rich dude. It's almost like a Ninth Gate
Speaker 1: where you got some rich guy trying to get somebody
Speaker 1: to go find something for him. Yeah, and it's this
Speaker 1: movie that if you watch it, you go fucking nuts.
Speaker 1: But it's like very occult. It's totally a cult so occult.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love Don Carpenter. I mean I think his
Speaker 2: film They Live is like an absolute prophetic. It seems
Speaker 2: so kind of prophetic in any way. It's just like wow, yeah,
Speaker 2: thanks for the film recommendation.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know, because what you were saying, I was like, Oh,
Speaker 1: I've watched a show like a movie thought on that thought,
Speaker 1: like where these movies are actually imbued with like such
Speaker 1: magical powers that it will change people when they want it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. Yeah, A Cole practice are everywhere. You know,
Speaker 2: I know there's a lot of conspiracy about that, but
Speaker 2: I mean it's kind of there.
Speaker 3: You know, the the This is one of those things
Speaker 3: where looking the conspiracy theories come from looking at occultism
Speaker 3: from a hyper hypocritical Abrahamic point of view, where everything
Speaker 3: that is in Christianity is bad. And a cult and
Speaker 3: a conspiracy theory, and it's like, these people are so like,
Speaker 3: I don't know. Supposedly, Tucker Carlson had some like demonologists
Speaker 3: on his show, so I'm like, Okay, I'm gonna watch
Speaker 3: this and listen. This dude has never read any of
Speaker 3: these books, none, and he's none of these He doesn't
Speaker 3: he's just making sh up, pulling, pulling demonology out of
Speaker 3: his butt. Man, he didn't know the first goddamn thing
Speaker 3: about demons, about spirits, about anyway. This is the most
Speaker 3: the fakest occultists I've ever seen on any show, and
Speaker 3: millions of people are eating that up, going, oh that's
Speaker 3: what occultism is. Oh my gosh. You know I could
Speaker 3: teleported onto that show and be like, you're wrong. Here's why.
Speaker 3: Let me tell you the truth. I wish I could
Speaker 3: have done that, you know what I mean, like you
Speaker 3: you were platforming this dude who probably you know, pulled
Speaker 3: the script out at at a straight out of some
Speaker 3: movie the day before and is acting like it's you know,
Speaker 3: because they're talking abou Kabala being evil and they're talking
Speaker 3: about all this absurd absurdisms, and it's it was so
Speaker 3: deeply anti semitic also like, uh.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean these things are like and and he
Speaker 2: said that that dude's a big platform too, so like
Speaker 2: you said, get this information and that's not good, you
Speaker 2: know what.
Speaker 3: The same The reality is that if you if you
Speaker 3: ever been to church, lady, that it's some occult ship
Speaker 3: that's going on there that's more ocult than anything I do.
Speaker 3: Go to Catholic mass, that's some occultism.
Speaker 2: I thought that too, you know, I don't want that Christianity.
Speaker 2: I remember being a young child like seeing like this
Speaker 2: sort of depiction of this man murdered, you know, like
Speaker 2: and thinking what's with this like like human sacrifice basically
Speaker 2: and eating ship not its like do we really have
Speaker 2: to do that in order for people to find harmony?
Speaker 2: Like come on.
Speaker 3: Some mecromantic like mess. Uh you know the funny thing dude, Sorry,
Speaker 3: I won't I won't take up too much time with
Speaker 3: this apologist. The thing that drives me wild is like
Speaker 3: the myth, the the ultimate conspiracy theories that there's a
Speaker 3: cab and they're all eating babies, and like the reality
Speaker 3: is the fucking Catholic Church has been covering up for
Speaker 3: pedophiles for two hundred years and everyone knows that and
Speaker 3: no one talks about it. So you they talk about
Speaker 3: it when's a big deal in the news for six
Speaker 3: weeks and then it goes away again. It's still happening there,
Speaker 3: you know. And you know, as a former card carrying
Speaker 3: member of the church is Satan, Like, they're not fucking
Speaker 3: they're not doing any of that stuff. They're atheists. The
Speaker 3: people who are doing that stuff are the Vatican.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you with proof.
Speaker 1: I know.
Speaker 2: It's just really weird, sort of like reverse psychology thing.
Speaker 2: It's like in order for them to kind of do
Speaker 2: their thing, and they're do it in plain sight but
Speaker 2: kind of flip it in a way that it's it's
Speaker 2: crazy making, right. So it's a psychological tactic one hundred percent,
Speaker 2: and it just makes it gets people to these sort
Speaker 2: of like.
Speaker 3: Very confused Yea, when I hear a Christian religious person
Speaker 3: talking about cult conspiracy theories, I'm just like you're a person,
Speaker 3: or like you're like a mirror image talking to a
Speaker 3: mirror and it's just doing boom back and forth, you know,
Speaker 3: like I'm not involved at all.
Speaker 1: I was trying to say that to somebody not too
Speaker 1: long ago. I was on their show and they're they're
Speaker 1: a Christian and uh, you know, a conspiracy type podcast.
Speaker 1: And I was like, you know, how would you feel
Speaker 1: like ause I knew he was in the he was
Speaker 1: in some sort of the military and he so obviously
Speaker 1: you have to go through boot camp. They said, how
Speaker 1: would you feel if I went around telling everybody my
Speaker 1: experience in boot camp? But I never fucking did it.
Speaker 1: And that's you know, telling people what to expect and
Speaker 1: what you're going through. I said, but yet, you've never
Speaker 1: once stepped inside of an Oto temple to tell people
Speaker 1: what the fuck me or anybody else was doing. You know,
Speaker 1: you never even stepped foot in the fucking place. Who
Speaker 1: are you to say what's going inside? What's going on
Speaker 1: inside there? You don't even have the balls to walk
Speaker 1: in one, Like, what the fuck? But you're gonna sit
Speaker 1: here from your computer. I make up all these X
Speaker 1: y Z lines cross in here, crossing here, this person
Speaker 1: raped this kid, this one, fuck that one, all these
Speaker 1: things from a place you've never even fucking walked into.
Speaker 1: How would you like if I took your story and
Speaker 1: claimed it when I never fucking did anything. Ye yo,
Speaker 1: And he was stumped and he didn't have anything to say.
Speaker 3: I should know this is starting from the pre and
Speaker 3: this this also goes into the way that everyone talks
Speaker 3: now about things being demonic. When you frame anything that's
Speaker 3: that is truly you know, heinous, and you call it demonic,
Speaker 3: you are implanting in the idea of the person listening.
Speaker 3: It's very easy to do that God is good, that
Speaker 3: the Abrahamic God is the correct God, and that is good,
Speaker 3: and that everything that's not that is demonic and back
Speaker 3: and from my posult like it was one of the
Speaker 3: things I did in my book that I thought, I
Speaker 3: because again I turn everything to a joke, I don't
Speaker 3: mean to, but I did D and D alignments for
Speaker 3: all the deities I talk about, you know, and I
Speaker 3: really thought about this, right, So, like obviously low Ki
Speaker 3: is like chaotic news, but I had to really think
Speaker 3: about I didn't talk about Yeahweh, but I talked about
Speaker 3: end Lil, who's the precursor to Yahweh and sa Marian mythology.
Speaker 3: The the alignment, the correct alignment for en Lil is
Speaker 3: lawful evil.
Speaker 2: Mm hmm.
Speaker 3: Try to kill us all with the flood, Like what
Speaker 3: am I supposed to do with that? That's lawful evil?
Speaker 2: That's very interesting.
Speaker 1: I see that though, you know, and they have to
Speaker 1: go to the Testament.
Speaker 3: But like you know, and and the the all of
Speaker 3: the sky gods, all of the thunder gods, with the
Speaker 3: exception maybe of Thor, who's just kind of like a
Speaker 3: drunk are are you know deeply? Yeah, but like they
Speaker 3: kind of they represent that element of patriarchue that if
Speaker 3: it is not balanced, will destroy everything eventually. Right, I'm true,
Speaker 3: and I'm I'm not saying that they shouldn't. I'm not
Speaker 3: saying they don't need the camera about there's always there's
Speaker 3: always that balances m key and there's little there's there's zus,
Speaker 3: and there's hades, there's you know, there's always a balance.
Speaker 3: It's very very important. But it's not it's not one
Speaker 3: or the other. It's like this balance needs to be there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's great. And I mean it's always
Speaker 2: like kind of like a fundamental kind of like thread
Speaker 2: of science too. Right, the universe is always trying to
Speaker 2: find harmony. You get these polarities, but everything is you know,
Speaker 2: moving within the chaos to find equilibrium, and and we
Speaker 2: need that, you know, there's always a it's always a thing. Hey,
Speaker 2: life this thing called Lee.
Speaker 1: One thing I did want to ask before we start
Speaker 1: to wrap it up, for people who do people go
Speaker 1: out and get your book, what is one thing you
Speaker 1: hope they take away from it.
Speaker 2: One thing I'd hope for them to take is to
Speaker 2: really allow firmwork relationship with technology, really, because you know,
Speaker 2: in general, I would want that to be the most thing.
Speaker 2: Even if you get the book, you're not even esoteric.
Speaker 2: I mean yes, because it basically says like magic on it,
Speaker 2: and it says spells, and it says which on the
Speaker 2: front cover, So obviously it won't reach all the kind
Speaker 2: of the muggle population. But even if you know there
Speaker 2: are magical practitioners, get it and say no, like I
Speaker 2: think tech is like evil and it's you know, terrible,
Speaker 2: has nothing to do with nature. I argue that because
Speaker 2: there's a lot of natural elements, including crystals and whatnot
Speaker 2: in here. My big would be that it will. The
Speaker 2: book helped me develop a healthy relationship with my phone,
Speaker 2: and I'm not mentally unwell with it anymore. I work
Speaker 2: with it mindfully now, and I realized that.
Speaker 3: The power has done that for me.
Speaker 2: Oh that's cool. I'd love to send you, guys a
Speaker 2: book because I just yesterday got a whole big box
Speaker 2: them so I can like mail them to send me
Speaker 2: your send me your postal addresses for pel boxes, and
Speaker 2: I'll I'll throw them into the mail for you now
Speaker 2: because I got the whole whole box to sort of
Speaker 2: like distribute.
Speaker 1: That's great. Yeah, cool, Thank you. I appreciate that. Sunday,
Speaker 1: was there any did you want to ask you another
Speaker 1: question before we slept around? No.
Speaker 3: I feel like i've kind of I already went on
Speaker 3: so many tangents, and I apologize. I don't mean to
Speaker 3: take up so much space because but I know I
Speaker 3: love very I just I didn't want to say that
Speaker 3: this concept. I wrote this down here I find a
Speaker 3: piece of favorite write down. The idea of your phone
Speaker 3: as a wand is so brilliant. It is so dead
Speaker 3: on correct, and it's such a wonderful reframing of how
Speaker 3: we interface with technology. And I mean it, you really have,
Speaker 3: because I am I have been that guy. But I'm
Speaker 3: like technology is bad kind of attitude and I've been
Speaker 3: very grouchy about it. And I feel like you this
Speaker 3: conversation has shifted my awareness towards a more positive way
Speaker 3: to look at an interface with tech and so thank
Speaker 3: you for that. And I'm going to recommend your book
Speaker 3: to all my students.
Speaker 2: Oh bless you all right, that's so wonderful. Thank you
Speaker 2: for the kind words, and please for your your book.
Speaker 2: Is it out?
Speaker 3: Yeah? You can pre order it on Amazon now. Oh,
Speaker 3: let me my thing out there? You know you pre
Speaker 3: order my book please? It's on Amazon. It's called Chaos
Speaker 3: s Witchcraft. And I'm also doing a very limited number
Speaker 3: of leather bound copies where I'm going to personally take
Speaker 3: take the existing book, remove the paper cover and rebind
Speaker 3: it in leather. That's hands stamped. I'm doing all these myself.
Speaker 3: There are twenty left. I am hoping to sell out
Speaker 3: because that's what funds the whole thing, the stuff. I'm
Speaker 3: not making any money on these there. They're expensive to make,
Speaker 3: but I want them to exist. That's the point. So
Speaker 3: assigned numbered leather bound copy of Chaos what Shraft. They're
Speaker 3: available at my website the order Ofcastmagic dot com slash books.
Speaker 1: That's gangs. Thank you very much, son, I appreciate it. Tree.
Speaker 1: Would you like to let everybody know like where they
Speaker 1: can find all your stuff or anything that you like
Speaker 1: to promote.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we'll hook up with me on Instagram. I guess
Speaker 2: on that like Magical Digital Culden. It's usually where I
Speaker 2: post about anything coming up. I do a lot of
Speaker 2: online stuff, so anyone listening, and you know I'm based
Speaker 2: in the UK, but I have online stuff. I do
Speaker 2: like three moon rituals a month, new moon, three quarter
Speaker 2: moon and also full moon. I also do like basis
Speaker 2: for people to do dream work, and we work with
Speaker 2: various plants that help trigger more dreams. So we do
Speaker 2: like containers of four weeks. I had a thing called porter.
Speaker 2: We work for four weeks with a plant. I got
Speaker 2: a blue lotus flower one coming up, so for four
Speaker 2: weeks we're gonna be working blue lotus flower to dream
Speaker 2: out into the dream and only take ten Yeah, I mean,
Speaker 2: I'll send you you I'll send you both free links
Speaker 2: because like, hey, it feels like I always like it.
Speaker 2: Come that starts, that starts on the twenty six. It's like, uh, how.
Speaker 3: Do you I've taken dry blue lotus flour and crushed
Speaker 3: up with some weed before. That's the only way I've
Speaker 3: ever experienced. I don't know what the correct think You're
Speaker 3: supposed to make a tincture right.
Speaker 2: You can make a tea, you can make a tincture,
Speaker 2: you can smoke it, you can vape it. There's lots
Speaker 2: of different ways to take these plants, which is really
Speaker 2: quite versatile.
Speaker 3: Beautiful.
Speaker 2: Really, it's an amazing blue low flower will take you
Speaker 2: into the shadow like you know, I've been working with
Speaker 2: her for maybe well over ten years now, and you
Speaker 2: always to bring up shadow work in the dreams, which
Speaker 2: is good though. It's great. She's a real amazing plant
Speaker 2: for that. But yeah, lots of different stuff.
Speaker 3: My experience with it was it was very interesting that
Speaker 3: I remember this. It was it was probably close to
Speaker 3: a decade ago, but it's a vivid memory because I
Speaker 3: felt possessed in the most wonderful way by my own
Speaker 3: higher self for like an hour, you know what I mean,
Speaker 3: Like I was not me. I was a much better, smarter,
Speaker 3: wiser version of me, but that wasn't me. And we
Speaker 3: were chilling on my friend's rooftop in Toronto and it
Speaker 3: was just like the most pleasant, wonderful. It was felt
Speaker 3: like sitting in a hot tub that was the perfect temperature.
Speaker 3: You know. It was great. Wow that that was noticed.
Speaker 2: I mean, plants are like tis like seriously and they
Speaker 2: will show you things. That is such a beautiful experience.
Speaker 2: I'm like, god, amazing, Oh my.
Speaker 1: Gods, that's really cool. Wow. Nice? All right? Yeah. Uh
Speaker 1: and when does the book come out?
Speaker 2: Uh? It comes out in May.
Speaker 1: Okay, good, May twelfth.
Speaker 2: You can re order it now.
Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, it's all lot.
Speaker 3: Yeh.
Speaker 1: Has been times when I mentioned the dude, when I've
Speaker 1: mentioned the date for it. I know I mentioned it earlier.
Speaker 1: I could have been wrong, though, because I've had people
Speaker 1: on the show and be like, oh, yeah, they've already
Speaker 1: changed that, and I'm like, oh, sorry, yeah, I forgot
Speaker 1: what I said, but I was but it was in May. Yeah,
Speaker 1: all right, thank you very much again, Tree. Awesome discussion.
Speaker 1: I really had a great time. I'm sure we could
Speaker 1: probably get you on again, just for something to talk
Speaker 1: about in the future. Definitely interesting stuff with the death
Speaker 1: and technology. It's actually kind of like two things I'm
Speaker 1: very interested in myself when it comes to the occult,
Speaker 1: So there's tons of things I could talk about. But
Speaker 1: uh so, thank you so much for coming on. Man,
Speaker 1: that was a blast. Really yeah, yeah, I loved it.
Speaker 3: This is great, I said, I really I love the
Speaker 3: way you run your show. And it's gotten me more.
Speaker 3: It's inspired to get back into doing my own podcast,
Speaker 3: which has been recently. But yeah, this is I love
Speaker 3: your format. I love that you live. Also, this is
Speaker 3: great because you don't have to go back and edit
Speaker 3: the whole thing. You just gotta just get it up there,
Speaker 3: just do it. I love it.
Speaker 1: Yep, yeah, thank you, Yeah, no, I appreciate it. And
Speaker 1: again Tret you, thank you so much for coming on.
Speaker 1: It was a blast. Hopefully talk to you again at
Speaker 1: some point. And everybody in the chat that's what's up.
Speaker 1: Thank you very much. I appreciate all the comments. That's
Speaker 1: why we go live. And uh, until the next one,
Speaker 1: everybody be well. Lada