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Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast.

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Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer,

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and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my

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experience as the brother of a murder victim to help

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other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book

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on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders and I'm the co

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administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with

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Kristin Dilly.

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Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly.

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Speaker 4: I'm a writer, a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate,

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as well as the social media manager and co administrator

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for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner

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in crime.

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Speaker 3: Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind Ever Murder.

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Speaker 2: I'm Kristin Dilly and I'm Bill Thomas.

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Speaker 4: We're joined today by James Lee Hernandez and Brian Lazarte,

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authors and filmmakers of the hit HBO Max series of

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MC millions.

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Speaker 3: James and Brian, thank you so much for joining us today.

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Speaker 5: Thanks for having us.

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Speaker 6: It's a real pleasure. Thank you.

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Speaker 4: So let's start by having you both tell us a

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little bit about yourselves and your work as both filmmakers

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and now as writers.

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Speaker 5: Well start, I'm James just you know, the voice that

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goes with the name. I'm a writer, director, producer. Don

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mcmillions did The Big Con for Apple TV plus, which

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we also did companion podcasts for mcmillions and The Big Con.

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Recently produced a three part documentary series on the history

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of Lollapaluza called Lala The Story of Lollapluza for Paramount Plus.

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Did a podcast called scam Town that's an Apple original podcast.

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Started a company with Brian called fun Meter.

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Speaker 6: So I'm Brian, the other writer, producer director in the partnership.

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Here to not repeat everything, Jane just said, we had

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a lot of fun and just really feel so fortunate

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and grateful that we've been able to make so many

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awesome projects with great people over the years and really diversify,

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you know, getting to start as filmmakers with mcmillions, having

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that launch into the Big un and then transition to like, oh,

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let's write the book and continue on the podcast journey.

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It's like, Yeah, the future is wide open, and it's

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really fun to explore different methods of storytelling because we

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just we love that process so much.

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Speaker 2: So we have an important question, and Kristin and I

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were debating this just before we started. Now, what's the

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origin of the name fund Meter. We think we know,

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but we want to hear it from the creative team.

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Speaker 5: One of the revelations of mcmillions was this FBI agent

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named Doug Matthews. For anybody who's seen the show, you understand.

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If you haven't seen the show, what have you been doing?

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Go watch it. But there is ANBI agent who's a

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rookie agent at the time of this investigation, and he

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is atypical of what anybody else would anyone would think

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of an FBI agent. The you know, wear dark gray

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or black suit. Say as few words as possible, just

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really what you see in the movies. This guy was

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if you ever met him, you'd never think he was

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an FBI agent. People thought we cast an actor to

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play an agent.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 5: He's a real life person, real life agent, And so

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he always talked about how regular FBI work would be boring,

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and all he wanted to do was tag things. He

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would say, I want to do things that tag my

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phon meter. And so when it was time to name

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our company, like that is such a perfect name for

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the type of things that we want to do.

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Speaker 3: I love that. That's fantastic, and you're right.

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Speaker 4: He absolutely is not the thing that anybody would picture

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when they think about an FBI agent. And of course,

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at this point Bill and I have met several. He

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is unlike any other agent that I've ever seen, and

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he's probably the most colorful character in a post of

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colorful characters in this really amazing story. So let's kind

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of get into the origin of this. How did the

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McDonald's monopoly scam even come on to your radar in

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the first place.

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Speaker 6: Well, I triggered out James's radar many years ago, so

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I'll let him kick off his origin story for this

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wild tale.

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Speaker 5: It started with back in twenty twelve. Like most people

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who can't sleep at night these days, I would just

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go through Reddit, like the website Reddit and laugh at

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dumb cat videos or things like that and helped me

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just like conk out for the night. And they have

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these tilS. Today I learned I just came across today.

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I learned nobody really won the McDonald's monopoly game. Like

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most people who grew up in the nineties and two

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thousands and eighties, like that was everything. When the McDonald's

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Monopoly game happened. You very specifically made your parents, if

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you're a kid, go to different McDonald's than normal to

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try and get different pieces. If you're on a road trip,

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you had to stop on the way in different states.

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You know, it was massive, massive, massive thing, and at minimum,

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you know a lot of times you're getting fries, free milkshakes,

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but you wanted to win that million dollar prize or

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at least a CD or a Second Genesis something like that.

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So when I saw that, clicked on it and it

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was just a local note like Jacksonville newspaper article, it

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was like twenty twelve, Yeah, this is this was in

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twenty twelve, and then the article was from two thousand

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and one when the bust all happened, and I'd like

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had to know more having been obsessed with the game,

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Like these people robbed me of my million dollars?

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Speaker 2: What happened? I wanted, you're rightful winning, Yeah, that's my money.

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Speaker 5: So I looked for the book. I looked for any

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information on it, and there really was nothing other than

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just the basic stuff that you could search on Google.

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But it really I needed the in depth look into

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all of that, and so Over the years, I would

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just continue to chip away at it, looking at it,

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and then I finally put a freedom of information requests

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in with the US government that only took three years

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to go through. And then when it finally.

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Speaker 2: Went through, Yeah, good luck at that.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I was able to find out that the main

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federal prosecutor who was involved, and the main FBI agent

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who was involved. And so I reached out to them

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and you know, found them on LinkedIn, talked to them,

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and you know, they said, look, this is our favorite case.

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No one's ever talked to us about this before. Yeah,

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let's let's talk about it. So that point, I had done,

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you know, scripted work. I really hadn't done any documentary stuff.

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And Brian, who I knew because I used to work

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for Brian's wife at Hallmark. She introduced me to Brian

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and I like we'd known each other. But I called

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up Brian and said, look, man, I think I've got

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something really big. And Brian has this huge history documentaries.

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I mean he's had like eight movies at Sundance Film Festival,

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stuff nominated for huge awards. His track record speaks for itself.

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So then we sat down at lunch and I could

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have laid everything out for him.

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Speaker 6: And it wasn't a McDonald's that we met with, by

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the way it should have been, because.

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Speaker 2: It would have been appropriate on bread.

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Speaker 6: Although I wonder if you were like, let's meet McDonald's,

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I might not have been Mike as enthusiastic. Although it

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was the most about of McDonald's I think I had

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eaten in recent years while working on this project. No,

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I mean I think it was just like super excited

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by the prospect of it. I mean, just like, on

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the surface of it, it's like, oh, from nineteen eighty

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nine to two thousand and one, every person who claimed

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a high value game piece of the McDonald's monopoly was

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part of a fraudulent group of people that ended up

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getting taken down by the FBI in a massive undercover

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sting operation. Like, yeah, the surface of that sounds like perfect,

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like I'd watch that, But then yeah, you start to wonder,

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like is there enough, are the characters strong enough? Is

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it as good as we hope it could be? But

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it was enough obviously out of the gate that had

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just sent us on this mission of fact finding, mission

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of like, Okay, what else is out there? Let's start

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talking to people, and the more we talk to people,

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the more we realize, like, oh, this is something special.

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And you know, we spent about a year developing it,

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and then we partnered with some friends of mine that

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I knew became friends, obviously James who run another company

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called Unrealistic Ideas, and Mark Wahlberg, Steve Levinson and Archie Gibbson.

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We took an HBO and we were off to the

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races pretty much right away.

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Speaker 2: There's so many questions that I have right out of

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the choot. Let me ask two. One is I mean

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years had gone by? How was it that no one

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else had ever glommed onto this story? I mean, it's

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an amazing story, and you tell it really well. And

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I ended up completely sucked into the six episode television

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version of the story. How the heck had no one

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else ever wont of this? I mean, does it take

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James reading Reddit in the middle of the night to

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finally put it on someone's radar?

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Speaker 5: The reason that nobody heard about this was the arrest

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happened two weeks before this incident, and then the first

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actual arraignment and like starting to get people into court

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happened two weeks before September eleventh, news broke, and then

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as people were starting to go to court just to

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like as their beginning operations of arrangement and all of

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that for the case. The first day of that happened

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on September eleventh, two thousand and one, and like everything

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the world stopped. All of the news was now about this,

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And rightfully, so, who cares about somebody stealing some game pieces?

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We have much bigger fish to fry in this situation.

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But that totally wiped it out of the news.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I was telling Bill off Air that growing up

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in the eighties, nineties and two thousands, I was hyper

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aware of that man game, as are I think most

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people who are my age.

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Speaker 3: But I was also.

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Speaker 4: Remarking to him, I don't remember when it slipped off

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my radar. It just for some it was like there

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one day, and then I didn't track that it had

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gone because I saw the book before I saw the movie.

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Speaker 3: As soon as I saw.

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Speaker 4: This on the book sort of shelf, I was like, oh,

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this sounds fantastic. But I also realized I had no

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idea when the Monopoly game sort of fell off the

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pop culture radar.

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Speaker 3: So that was really interesting.

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Speaker 4: An interesting component of the story for sure, Bill, did

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you ask your second question?

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Speaker 2: Well, the second question is and I still can't get

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over this one either. And this makes perfect sense in

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terms of the tie into nine to eleven. And I

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do understand how it kind of wiped the slake clear.

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I was living in New York at that point and

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we lost friends on nine to eleven, And I understand

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how the whole world kind of turned upside down and

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that was the focus. How the heck did McDonald's never

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figure out that all these people are related in some way,

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either by blood or by marriage or by being connected

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to the same mob family. How in the world did

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they never figured this out?

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Speaker 5: Oh?

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Speaker 6: Well, I mean, it's almost easy in hindsight, right to

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look back and say, like, oh, there were a lot

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of people that all kind of lived not far from

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each other, right, But some of those people when they

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claimed their prize, they claimed it at a different address

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and they had different last names, even though that some

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of them were related. So even the FBI, like, when

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they started putting this together, they thought, oh, there's maybe

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just a few people connected, And it wasn't until they

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started digging in that they realized, oh, wait a minute, Okay,

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now we can see the pattern. There's these recruiters, you know,

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that are working for Jerry Jake, Like then you know

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Jerry Jake like said it was Uncle Jerry. There was

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this you know, mystical figure the helm of this that

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you know, sounded straight out of a movie, like Uncle Jerry.

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And that's all they kind of got. They so for

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those who don't know kind of the seed of the story.

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It got triggered by this this tip that came in

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to the FBI. And Rick Den, who was like the

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senior agent, had written on a note pad like a

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little post it note McDonald's monopoly question mark and had

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it like just on his desk. And he was like

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this very stoic, by the book, you know, religious type

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of typical FBI agent. And Doug Matthews was like the

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odd couple, a typical rookie, loudmouth, brash, wouldn't stop moving,

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followed the shiny object kind of an agent. He saw

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this post it note one day, it was like, what

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is that? I was like, Oh, it's probably you know.

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Rick Dad was like it's probably nothing, and Doug Matthews insisted, well,

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can I look into it. It's like I knock yourself

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out essentially, and he comes back with this, like he

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calls this informant that had called in this tip and

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had gotten like three names in this like mystical name

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of Uncle Jerry. So we always kind of knew that,

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like the you know, the way that starts, like any

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kind of investigation, it's like it's one name, it's one number,

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and then this thing just ballooned out to like, okay,

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fifty at the end, fifty three people were indicted across

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twenty three states, So it was it was enormous fraud.

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Speaker 4: As a high school teacher who teaches both filmmaking and writing,

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I know the creative process for doing both have a

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lot of similarities, but they also have in some ways

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wild differences between them.

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Speaker 3: Which of these did you find you.

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Speaker 4: Enjoyed creating more the documentary or the book or is

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that like asking you to choose a favorite child in.

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Speaker 5: A sense a little bit, choose your favorite child. But I,

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at least to me, it all feels like one thing

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because when we first doing the documentary, the story was

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so big and so sprawling, and as we laid all

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of it out and started really talking about it and

265
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figuring everything out, it was just too big to like

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wrap your head around, but then also to continue to

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explain everybody that would bring on our team to help

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us make this whole thing. So Brian and I did

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this did something that I mean, I haven't seen it

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a ton in documentary, but we wrote the entire story out.

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We adjusted it as we went as we learned more things,

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but we basically created a seventy page bible of what

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the entire story is. That was. It was really helpful

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because anytime we brought people out or like read this

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and now you'll it'll be really easy to get caught

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up to speed. And it contained like all you know,

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the research we've been doing for over the years and

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all the people we talked to, and as we learn

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more things, we would adjust it just because Brian and

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I basically and it says, didn't know any better or

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wanted it to be an entertaining read. We wrote it

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like it was a not like it was a book,

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and that ultimately was the base structure for what became

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mcmillions the novel. So we like unintentionally really were already

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creating it as we were making the show, and then

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we learned all these new things that we couldn't even

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fit into, like even though it's a six part documentary series,

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there were all these other tentacles that we couldn't really

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go down in a visual medium, but we knew we

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could go into books, so then we started writing those out.

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Funny enough, it kind of is the same thing. And

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then when it got time to really buckle down and

293
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write the book, then we have to add in all

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these new pieces that weren't in the documentary or in

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the podcast that were really exciting. So it was fun

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to revisit it after we had finished and done all

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the documentary stuff. So you know, they're like twins. You

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like the twins the same.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, there's something special about the first time that you

300
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learn information and your mind is blown and you're like, oh,

301
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like no, there's no way this can happen. But then

302
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you know, many years later, revisiting some things for the book,

303
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it's like, oh, I remember, like I totally forgot that detail,

304
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like how did we? How do we? It was like

305
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you get another chance at that to like see what

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else is there to discover and a way to do it.

307
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But writing, I think writing is far more solitary in

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a lot of ways when you're making the doc version

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of this, you're just you're constantly like surrounding yourself with

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other creatives to share input and collectively help challenge your

311
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way of thinking about the story. And there's something just

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I think a little more rewarding about that personally.

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Speaker 2: Which parts more rewarding for you.

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Speaker 6: Making the dock making the doc like out of the

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gate when you're working with other people and like other

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people challenge you in that sense, Like I mean, aside

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from you know, I think most people think of like, oh, well,

318
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the book comes first, and then comes the documentary and

319
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the film, and we're just saying, hey, it doesn't matter

320
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what order, we're going to go backwards.

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Speaker 2: I see documentary filmmaking and the work that you all

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do as that's much more of a team sport than

323
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sitting down at the computer. And even if the two

324
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of you, you know, divved this up somehow, writing seems

325
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like a much more solitary kind of activity.

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Speaker 5: Yep, seem it is. You can make a film by yourself,

327
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but other than Rodriguez making al Mariachi by himself, like

328
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in a city, it usually it's just you need so

329
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many people to create this entire thing. And when you're writing,

330
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you know, a certain point, it's just you on a

331
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computer screen or a typewriter depending on or a free hand.

332
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You know, I don't want to hate on Yeah.

333
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Speaker 2: So the seventy page Bible, even though that would have

334
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been a lot of work for you to create, it

335
00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:55,680
seems like a more efficient way to fill in people

336
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as you added people to your team. In other words,

337
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here's the basics, and here's what the story we're trying

338
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to tell. Short version, not as long as the book.

339
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Was that designed as an efficiency step to bring people

340
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up to speed.

341
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Speaker 6: I think it was a combination of It was just

342
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part of our process because when you're taking on a

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multi part series, you got to figure out, okay, like

344
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what is episode one going to be? What is episode

345
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two going to be? And you start to really need

346
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to map out what is that creative path. And it's

347
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useful not only for ourselves, I think first and foremost

348
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to like really kind of understand how do we want

349
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to lay out the story. And one of the things

350
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that we did very much so in the documentary series

351
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and we mirror it a little bit in the book,

352
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was we wanted to kick it off out of the

353
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gate from the FBI's point of view, and our whole

354
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first episode of our documentary series is only told from

355
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the FBI's point of view, and it doesn't shift until

356
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we get into the second episode. I was by design,

357
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and we wanted to lay that out not only for

358
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our partners, but also for the for HBO and the

359
00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:08,400
network to say, like, hey, here's how we want to

360
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plot this thing out. You know you kind of wonder like,

361
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is in hindsight, yes, it works, but like in the moment,

362
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you do get those questions from your creative colleagues to say, well,

363
00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:22,799
wait a minute. Here you have Robin Colombo, and you

364
00:19:22,839 --> 00:19:26,359
have aj Glum, and you have all these really colorful

365
00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:31,200
characters that were quote unquote winners who defrauded McDonald's. Here,

366
00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:35,119
why aren't you putting them up front in the first episode?

367
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And you just you know, James and I we made

368
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that choice out of the gate, and we were so

369
00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:44,200
lockstep and like, this is the way to take people

370
00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:47,519
into the story. It is a choice. Laid it out

371
00:19:47,559 --> 00:19:51,240
on paper helped us convey how we were going to

372
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do it and why it would be an effective path.

373
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Speaker 4: Now, the FBI can be notoriously closed lipped as we're

374
00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:01,680
well aware when it comes to talking about their investigative work,

375
00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:06,480
either to victims families, to writers, to producers, to the press.

376
00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:10,640
Was the FBI helpful during this process or did you

377
00:20:10,799 --> 00:20:13,640
really have to kind of pry away at them to

378
00:20:13,799 --> 00:20:14,279
get some.

379
00:20:15,799 --> 00:20:17,359
Speaker 3: Helpful interviews.

380
00:20:17,759 --> 00:20:22,480
Speaker 5: We were very fortunate in this situation. Yes, the FBI

381
00:20:22,599 --> 00:20:28,240
is notoriously tight lipped. Understandably, I mean they're after seeing

382
00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:32,000
the inner workings of an investigation. Anything could sway that

383
00:20:32,119 --> 00:20:34,960
in such a bad direction for them. We were fortunate

384
00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:37,279
in the sense that this was a fully adjudicated case

385
00:20:37,319 --> 00:20:41,279
that had happened over a decade ago. Also, we had

386
00:20:41,359 --> 00:20:45,519
the positive side of it wasn't about a mass murder

387
00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:48,960
or something like that. It was again about something that

388
00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:51,880
can kind of be taken lightly, so they weren't worried

389
00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:55,160
about it affecting any other cases or anything like that.

390
00:20:56,079 --> 00:20:59,440
And then the agents themselves, I mean, one, it helps

391
00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:02,279
if there were so half of about half of them

392
00:21:02,519 --> 00:21:05,920
were retired already from the FBI. And then those who

393
00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:09,920
were not retired. Because of the high profile nature of

394
00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:12,400
this case and because of what we were building and

395
00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:15,519
how we were going about it, they were far more

396
00:21:15,559 --> 00:21:18,000
open than we ever imagined that they would be. But

397
00:21:18,759 --> 00:21:23,279
that really just goes to show how helpful every investigator

398
00:21:23,279 --> 00:21:25,119
that was part of this was for us. I mean

399
00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:27,200
they all went to bat when they're now talking to

400
00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:31,119
higher ups or talking to the talking to the public

401
00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:35,279
affairs people, you know, at headquarters of the FBI, to

402
00:21:35,319 --> 00:21:37,440
really vouch for what we're doing, that we're going about

403
00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:39,799
this the right way. We weren't going for any like

404
00:21:39,839 --> 00:21:43,079
gotcha moments. We weren't trying to take a crazy curve

405
00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:46,000
and paint them in a bad light. You know, it

406
00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:49,559
was really fascinating. Just look, we're going to unravel this

407
00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:53,240
investigation of frond your eyes and see just how crazy

408
00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:55,640
and how wild and how inventive this whole thing is.

409
00:21:56,519 --> 00:21:59,000
Speaker 2: One of the things I was surprised by was the

410
00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:02,200
openness of the agents. And I think we can all

411
00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:05,279
agree that Doug Matthews is such a character. I mean,

412
00:22:05,319 --> 00:22:10,079
he's really just a fascinating individual and he is very entertaining.

413
00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:12,759
My partner Pamela and I found ourselves smiling every time

414
00:22:12,759 --> 00:22:16,039
he appeared on camera because he's irreverent and funny, and

415
00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:19,519
he's a good storyteller himself. Part of the challenge I

416
00:22:19,519 --> 00:22:22,519
would imagine when you've got somebody who's that kind of

417
00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:26,519
charismatic and fun and is the originator of the fund meter.

418
00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:32,000
Was it difficult to trim down to these key moments

419
00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:33,839
with a guy like Doug Matthews.

420
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Speaker 6: I think yes and no. Doug if he describes himself

421
00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:41,319
as always chasing this shiny object, and I mean we

422
00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:43,960
kept in a few moments where he was like, yeah,

423
00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:46,000
I know, I'm going off on a little tangent. I mean,

424
00:22:47,799 --> 00:22:50,480
he likes to go off on tangents. But I think,

425
00:22:50,759 --> 00:22:54,519
you know, the spirit of it was always there and intact,

426
00:22:54,599 --> 00:22:56,720
and it was just like this was a you know,

427
00:22:56,839 --> 00:22:59,960
wide eye, like you know, eager or bright eyed, eager

428
00:23:00,079 --> 00:23:05,519
or FBI agent who just he was unafraid to speak

429
00:23:05,559 --> 00:23:08,559
his mind and share like what he thinks is the

430
00:23:08,599 --> 00:23:10,599
way to go about doing it, which was like, oh,

431
00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:13,480
let's go undercover. You know, he was being shot down

432
00:23:13,519 --> 00:23:17,279
time and time again, and then finally it clicked for

433
00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:21,519
one of the more senior agents who was there and

434
00:23:21,599 --> 00:23:23,799
realized like, okay, wait a minute, that maybe there is

435
00:23:23,839 --> 00:23:27,440
a way to make this work. And I think we

436
00:23:27,599 --> 00:23:30,519
just always approached it as like we wanted the audience

437
00:23:30,599 --> 00:23:34,960
to feel as if they were part of the investigation, right,

438
00:23:35,079 --> 00:23:37,319
like that you're playing along that we're never getting too

439
00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:40,920
far ahead of where they are in what they're discovering

440
00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:43,359
along the way, and a lot of ways, there was

441
00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:45,960
kind of this kindred spirit of sorts that we had

442
00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:49,480
as filmmakers because as FBI agents, like you're digging into

443
00:23:49,599 --> 00:23:52,359
the facts and you're trying to help see, Okay, what

444
00:23:52,519 --> 00:23:54,839
is the story that you're going to tell to get

445
00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:57,279
the federal prosecutor on board? Right? And for us it

446
00:23:57,359 --> 00:23:58,920
was like, oh, what's the story we tell to get

447
00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:02,559
the network on board? And you're shaping them like you

448
00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:05,519
would go into trial to like, you know, put it

449
00:24:05,559 --> 00:24:08,160
in an in an order that can convey that the

450
00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:12,039
path of what your takeaway is at the end. And

451
00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:14,359
so we just kind of approached it as likes that

452
00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:17,720
same spirit and Doug being kind of all over the place,

453
00:24:17,759 --> 00:24:19,400
it was like, okay, wherever we could rate him, and

454
00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:22,960
we could. But I think the first time James met

455
00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:25,319
with him by himself, it was like at nine o'clock

456
00:24:25,319 --> 00:24:29,079
at night. It was like a three hour or more session,

457
00:24:29,319 --> 00:24:32,640
and then when we sat down together, I think it

458
00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:35,480
was like it was six hours of sixty.

459
00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:38,559
Speaker 5: Yeah, that was it was six It was easily six.

460
00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:41,160
It was six hours of actual sitting there and talking.

461
00:24:42,039 --> 00:24:45,839
Speaker 6: Yeah, he didn't stop. It was like the energizer Bunny

462
00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:48,640
got a certain point where like, don't you need to eat?

463
00:24:48,759 --> 00:24:51,599
We need to eat? All right, Well, I got a

464
00:24:51,599 --> 00:24:54,039
power bar. You guys can go and be lazy over

465
00:24:54,079 --> 00:24:59,079
there in the corner and get back to this. But really, yeah,

466
00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:02,079
he was one of kind energy.

467
00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:05,680
Speaker 2: You're listening to Mind Over Murder. We'll be right back

468
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:23,799
after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at

469
00:25:23,839 --> 00:25:24,720
mindover Murder.

470
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Speaker 4: I was really hoping that agent Rick Dent was going

471
00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:32,079
to make an appearance.

472
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:34,759
Speaker 3: It deemed based on the way that you described him.

473
00:25:35,279 --> 00:25:37,599
Speaker 4: I pretty much before I even started watching the documentary,

474
00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:38,960
I was like, they're not going to get this guy.

475
00:25:39,279 --> 00:25:42,240
But I assume you asked him. Did he ever reply

476
00:25:42,559 --> 00:25:44,640
like in person, yes I will do this or no?

477
00:25:44,839 --> 00:25:47,240
Or did he just ghost you entirely? What was the

478
00:25:47,319 --> 00:25:47,920
deal with Rick?

479
00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:52,839
Speaker 5: So Rick, we actually met with him and spent two

480
00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:55,400
three hour sessions talking to him about this stuff. And

481
00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:58,839
then he is a very private person. He took his

482
00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:03,599
work with that FBI extremely seriously because he knew that

483
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:07,559
the thing that he was doing. His job, was affecting

484
00:26:07,599 --> 00:26:11,079
people's civil liberties, so that he was very very serious

485
00:26:11,079 --> 00:26:14,119
about it. So when we met with him, we talked

486
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:17,160
to him for two days in a row, three hours each,

487
00:26:17,319 --> 00:26:20,079
and then he was open to us like whenever we

488
00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:22,640
had questions or if we needed a fact check anything.

489
00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:26,000
He was great about letting us call him and disturb

490
00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:29,759
him in his everyday life because with documentaries you have

491
00:26:29,799 --> 00:26:33,839
to remember and any true story. He's not an actor

492
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:36,559
that's just like this, let's tell this story together. I mean,

493
00:26:36,599 --> 00:26:38,519
he's a real life with a wife and kids and

494
00:26:38,559 --> 00:26:41,039
stuff that he does. So he was very kind to

495
00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:44,559
share his time with us, and he really helped paint

496
00:26:44,839 --> 00:26:48,720
the picture and understand things, especially in details that you

497
00:26:48,799 --> 00:26:50,519
see in the book that you don't necessarily see in

498
00:26:50,519 --> 00:26:53,480
the documentary because he's not there to say it, but

499
00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:55,759
a lot of that stuff made it into the book.

500
00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:57,960
We were sitting there with him at a restaurant the

501
00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:01,039
first night, the first day and Doug said, he he

502
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:04,000
do his human light detector test to you, and you

503
00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:07,279
could just tell when you're talking to him, you could

504
00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:12,559
see him looking through you into you. So yeah, it

505
00:27:12,599 --> 00:27:16,240
was he was everything that we that we imagined and

506
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:18,759
it was great to be able to talk to him,

507
00:27:18,759 --> 00:27:20,599
but unfortunately he wasn't in the doctor.

508
00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:24,319
Speaker 2: So when you talk about sessions, though, are we talking

509
00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:26,000
about on camera or off?

510
00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:29,839
Speaker 6: This was this was off. We we met with him

511
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:33,839
in person. We were maybe three or four hours away

512
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:37,720
from where he lived, and he did ghost us for

513
00:27:37,799 --> 00:27:39,640
a long time. We were trying to get him on

514
00:27:39,759 --> 00:27:43,400
board and he wouldn't respond to anything. And then we

515
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:45,599
won't say exactly what it was, but we sent him

516
00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:49,799
like basically a hail Mary passion play letter and there

517
00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:53,319
was there was one one trigger that just like had

518
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:55,680
him respond right away, and it was it was a

519
00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:59,519
great moment for us. One thing, the one thing I

520
00:27:59,559 --> 00:28:03,519
remember beyond just the human life detector like moment, was

521
00:28:04,079 --> 00:28:07,880
he explained that, you know, after he'd retired, he hadn't

522
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:10,400
gone back to those files and that like when he

523
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:13,319
was in an investigation, he was kind of all in

524
00:28:13,599 --> 00:28:16,519
like that was like everything all his focus, you know,

525
00:28:16,599 --> 00:28:20,319
his attention to detail was like extremely meticulous, but when

526
00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:23,039
he moved on from a case, he purged a lot

527
00:28:23,079 --> 00:28:27,960
of that mental space for other things. And he said

528
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:30,640
that he was worried that like if he got a

529
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:34,119
fact wrong. How would it be perceived if he said

530
00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:35,799
the wrong thing on camera?

531
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:37,279
Speaker 2: And you know, we.

532
00:28:37,279 --> 00:28:39,640
Speaker 6: Tried to explain to him that, like, you can say

533
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:42,240
what you think you remember, and obviously we can fact

534
00:28:42,279 --> 00:28:45,200
check ourselves and if there's something you know, we were

535
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:48,200
trying to be playful about it or open to But

536
00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:50,720
I think for him it was just he said he'd

537
00:28:50,759 --> 00:28:52,799
have to the only way he would do it is

538
00:28:52,839 --> 00:28:56,400
if he felt comfortable reopening all his own files. And

539
00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:58,599
it was something like it was like just the thought

540
00:28:58,599 --> 00:29:01,640
of it, you know, makes my heart beat a little

541
00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:05,279
too fast for where I am in retirement at the moment.

542
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:10,599
Speaker 4: So when I was sort of picturing Doug and Rick,

543
00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:13,480
I was I'm going to date myself horribly by saying this.

544
00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:16,799
I was thinking of Agent J and Agent K from

545
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:19,960
Men in Black. First of only you got Tommy Lee

546
00:29:20,119 --> 00:29:23,160
Jones and Will Smith, And I was picturing Rick as

547
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:24,920
the Tommy Lee Jones character.

548
00:29:25,799 --> 00:29:27,160
Speaker 3: I couldn't get that to leave.

549
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:29,119
Speaker 4: So actually I was sort of hoping he would show

550
00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:31,319
up in the documentary, if only so that I could

551
00:29:31,319 --> 00:29:33,160
get the image of Tommy.

552
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:34,920
Speaker 3: Lee Jones out of my head.

553
00:29:37,559 --> 00:29:42,039
Speaker 5: Yeah, he's he's basically that just definitely taller than Tommy

554
00:29:42,119 --> 00:29:42,960
Lee johs Ok.

555
00:29:45,279 --> 00:29:48,200
Speaker 2: Well, let me ask a question. Then, who else did

556
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:50,400
you want that you did not get.

557
00:29:51,519 --> 00:29:54,440
Speaker 5: There's there's only there's only one. But I don't know.

558
00:29:55,319 --> 00:29:57,519
I mean, I guess at this point we can, Yeah,

559
00:29:57,920 --> 00:29:59,119
we can. We can read this prie.

560
00:29:59,359 --> 00:30:01,279
Speaker 2: We're going to break. We'll help you break the story.

561
00:30:01,319 --> 00:30:05,640
Speaker 5: Go ahead, Yeah, Jerry and Jacobson himself, Uncle Jerry. He

562
00:30:05,839 --> 00:30:10,440
was the one. We ended up not getting him for

563
00:30:10,519 --> 00:30:14,680
the documentary after trying a million things like sending him letters.

564
00:30:15,079 --> 00:30:16,880
I mean, we don't. I think the only thing we

565
00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:19,920
didn't try is like doing like skywriting outside of his.

566
00:30:19,839 --> 00:30:22,319
Speaker 2: House Jerry, Uncle Jerry.

567
00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:28,359
Speaker 5: Yeah, answer our phone calls. Ultimately, you know, he he

568
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:31,799
didn't participate, but we had built up so much and

569
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:36,680
he actually testified, so we had his entire story laid out.

570
00:30:36,799 --> 00:30:39,720
We knew everything, every single detail. And then of course

571
00:30:39,759 --> 00:30:42,680
we had all like you know, Mark Devereau, who had

572
00:30:42,759 --> 00:30:44,559
spent a ton of time with him, his lawyer, you know,

573
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:46,960
Jerry Jacobs, as lawyers were involved all of it. So

574
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:51,400
we had that entire side painted without really needing him.

575
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:53,880
In a certain sense. You know, it's like a like

576
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:57,279
a scary movie like the idea of the bad guys

577
00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:02,519
almost better than meeting them, so didn't have that. But then,

578
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:06,559
you know, interestingly enough, we've had some phone calls with

579
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:09,079
him since we've we've learned some things from him that

580
00:31:09,519 --> 00:31:10,559
were really fascinating.

581
00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:13,359
Speaker 2: Now, why would he talk to you after the fact,

582
00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:14,079
do you think?

583
00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:17,480
Speaker 6: I think more of it just comes down to time

584
00:31:17,559 --> 00:31:20,319
and perspective, and I think it was an unexpected we

585
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:23,799
caught him. But the more interesting thing for us is

586
00:31:23,839 --> 00:31:26,640
like how we we think it would have been great

587
00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:29,480
for him to participate, not only for us but also

588
00:31:29,559 --> 00:31:34,359
for him. Like anybody that said no to us at first,

589
00:31:35,079 --> 00:31:38,559
it was based on fear and trepidation that this was

590
00:31:38,599 --> 00:31:40,640
the worst thing that ever happened in their life. They've

591
00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:44,559
already been embarrassed by it. Once, you know, for the

592
00:31:44,559 --> 00:31:48,519
most part, they've moved on. We really feel that anybody

593
00:31:48,519 --> 00:31:51,799
that did participate, people could see their side of the

594
00:31:51,839 --> 00:31:57,480
story and have come around to accepting them as you know,

595
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:01,839
as real people that we're going through something at the

596
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:04,799
time and could really relate. And that was you know,

597
00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:08,640
we always felt like, had he participated, and maybe one

598
00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:10,519
day he will, you know, want to really sit down

599
00:32:10,519 --> 00:32:14,319
and talk to us at length about it, and maybe

600
00:32:14,359 --> 00:32:18,559
there's another season to be had, But the goal was

601
00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:22,480
really just like, here's an opportunity for you to share

602
00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:27,039
what you were going through at the moment. And Gloria Brown,

603
00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:30,000
if you look at her story, I mean, it's kind

604
00:32:30,039 --> 00:32:34,000
of a case in point, like textbook example. We only

605
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:37,079
knew Gloria Brown initially from the FBI's point of view,

606
00:32:37,559 --> 00:32:40,240
and if, like James have said before, like if you

607
00:32:40,279 --> 00:32:43,640
just google her, you're just like, oh, okay, federal criminal

608
00:32:44,079 --> 00:32:46,640
defrauded the McDonald's moth. Like in your head, you kind

609
00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:48,640
of paint the picture as to like who you think

610
00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:51,039
she is. You see that archival video from the FBI,

611
00:32:51,079 --> 00:32:53,160
and you're like, oh, yeah, she's lying through her teeth,

612
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:54,880
Like this is someone that was just trying to get

613
00:32:55,079 --> 00:32:58,920
one over on a major corporation. But when we sat

614
00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:02,359
down with her one morning for breakfast and we started

615
00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:06,279
to really understand what she was going through and the

616
00:33:06,319 --> 00:33:09,920
pressure she was feeling from the mob and Jerry Colombo,

617
00:33:10,599 --> 00:33:13,640
we had this empathy and we thought, this is what

618
00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:15,680
people need to hear, and no one's ever heard this

619
00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:18,559
version of the story before. And the fact that she

620
00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:21,519
came around like when you watch that, you get to

621
00:33:21,519 --> 00:33:24,960
see the two different perspectives, and you realize, like, oh wait,

622
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:27,920
there is a human side to this that I wasn't

623
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:32,160
factoring into this criminal enterprise. You know, that was the

624
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:35,599
case for everybody really that participated. That was you know,

625
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:36,559
quote unquote winner.

626
00:33:37,319 --> 00:33:40,319
Speaker 2: One of the shocking things for me actually was the

627
00:33:41,279 --> 00:33:44,680
at one point one of the participants, but I would

628
00:33:44,799 --> 00:33:48,680
also argue they are victims. She was actually sitting down,

629
00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:51,519
remember if it was Gloria or one of the other participants,

630
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:55,480
and actually did the math in terms of, Okay, here's

631
00:33:55,559 --> 00:34:00,960
the prize I received, and then it's a fifty fifty split,

632
00:34:01,319 --> 00:34:05,160
and then they're paying the taxes and her net I

633
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:09,239
think was ten thousand dollars on whatever the prize was

634
00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:13,320
one hundred thousand dollars, and you realize, oh my gosh,

635
00:34:13,559 --> 00:34:17,760
these people have put themselves at phenomenal risk for actually

636
00:34:18,079 --> 00:34:22,639
very little economic benefit. And I was just floored. I

637
00:34:22,679 --> 00:34:25,320
guess the mob doesn't agree to go fifty to fifty

638
00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:25,719
with you.

639
00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:30,239
Speaker 5: After taxes, No, they're not worried about your tax burden.

640
00:34:30,679 --> 00:34:34,760
It was really fascinating because so many people didn't realize

641
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:37,559
one that you had to pay taxes or the level

642
00:34:37,599 --> 00:34:39,199
to which you have to pay them. I mean it's

643
00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:43,880
it's a cold instant fifty gone. So that's on top

644
00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:46,800
of anything else that you have to worry about. Yeah,

645
00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:50,639
I mean this was when you looked at the numbers

646
00:34:50,639 --> 00:34:53,360
and you looked at everything. And once this really started

647
00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:58,199
to make this turn, when the mafia got involved, then

648
00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:00,719
it was much more of an organized crime. I'm like, Okay,

649
00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:03,159
this is how we do things. This is how we

650
00:35:03,199 --> 00:35:06,519
take advantage of the situation. Like a million dollars sounds

651
00:35:06,519 --> 00:35:08,079
like a lot to you, but you're actually going to

652
00:35:08,159 --> 00:35:09,920
be taking a small amount and we're going to take

653
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:12,519
our cut, and you better have our cut every single

654
00:35:12,639 --> 00:35:16,840
year or else really shows, you know. In Gloria Brown's

655
00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:20,159
story where she was friends with Robin Colombo, she thinks

656
00:35:20,159 --> 00:35:22,760
like this is her miracle that's going to happen. She

657
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:24,440
doesn't have to rob a bank, she just have to

658
00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:27,039
pretend to win, Like, how is that even illegal? In

659
00:35:27,079 --> 00:35:29,440
her eyes? At the end of the day, she ends

660
00:35:29,519 --> 00:35:32,159
up being terrified because she feels like all of a sudden,

661
00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:34,800
she's on this runaway train and there's no stopping it.

662
00:35:35,639 --> 00:35:38,360
She's getting bossed around by Jerry Colombo and his goons,

663
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:42,519
and then you know, has to pay the taxes. She's

664
00:35:42,599 --> 00:35:44,079
still trying to raise it. She has a single mom

665
00:35:44,119 --> 00:35:46,559
trying to raise her son. And in the back of

666
00:35:46,559 --> 00:35:49,960
her mind, she said, always she's wondering when when something

667
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:53,079
bad was going to happen, And yeah, when that when

668
00:35:53,119 --> 00:35:54,559
that knock of the door was going to happen, And

669
00:35:54,599 --> 00:35:55,239
eventually it did.

670
00:35:56,559 --> 00:36:00,079
Speaker 2: I ended up feeling incredibly sympathetic towards these people. Well,

671
00:36:00,079 --> 00:36:02,199
at first I was thinking, oh, you know, they're all crooks,

672
00:36:02,199 --> 00:36:04,760
they're all in on it. But then when the story

673
00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:07,639
begins to lay out and the threats are ramped up,

674
00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:11,079
and you realize, wait a minute, these people aren't walking

675
00:36:11,119 --> 00:36:13,519
away with one hundred thousand dollars or a million dollars

676
00:36:13,639 --> 00:36:17,119
or whatever it is. It didn't sound like it changed

677
00:36:17,119 --> 00:36:18,880
their life for the better. I mean, I think we

678
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:21,679
all have a fantasy that if you won the lottery

679
00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:26,000
or won the mcmillion's game at McDonald's, that you'd be set.

680
00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:28,639
And the truth is it was far from that, and

681
00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:32,760
winning that game, if you will, didn't really improve these

682
00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:35,159
people's lives, not one win.

683
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:40,440
Speaker 5: It ultimately comes down to that idea that yeah, you're

684
00:36:40,519 --> 00:36:43,519
winning a million dollars and that sounds awesome, I mean,

685
00:36:43,639 --> 00:36:47,199
especially in the eighties and nineties, but that doesn't translate

686
00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:50,199
to that, and especially what these people were going through.

687
00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:54,000
The only people to really benefit from this were the recruiters,

688
00:36:54,079 --> 00:36:56,519
the people who are getting kickbacks on this. And then

689
00:36:56,599 --> 00:37:00,320
ultimately you know uncle Jerry, Jerry Jacobson. I mean he

690
00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:04,639
was buying lakefront property and boats and nice cars and

691
00:37:04,679 --> 00:37:07,880
stuff you know like this. He really was the main

692
00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:11,440
person who got the advantage of all of it.

693
00:37:12,119 --> 00:37:15,280
Speaker 6: There was also like someone like George Chandler, who when

694
00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:20,559
he first won the million dollars, he actually lost business

695
00:37:20,599 --> 00:37:22,400
because there were clients who were like, oh what, you

696
00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:26,400
don't need my money. You're a millionaire now, not realizing like,

697
00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:29,840
oh wait a minute. You know, he gets paid in installments.

698
00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:33,719
And then of course when it comes out that you know,

699
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:37,199
his foster father was you know, was the one who

700
00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:39,960
gave him the game piece, and there was the whole

701
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:43,079
court case and everyone gets indicted. It's like, oh, wait

702
00:37:43,119 --> 00:37:45,400
a minute, now he's a part of a fraud. And

703
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:48,280
you know, he had to crawl his way back. I mean,

704
00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:52,159
he was such a successful young entrepreneur at a young age,

705
00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:56,159
who initially saw this as like a business opportunity. He

706
00:37:56,239 --> 00:37:58,639
was like, Okay, this makes financial sense, and like it's

707
00:37:58,639 --> 00:38:02,519
coming from my foster father who is Mormon elder, Like

708
00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:05,320
there's no way and what you know, he's trying to

709
00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:09,760
bamboozle me. But you realize, like, just like how greed

710
00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:13,440
can affect so many people at all these different levels,

711
00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:16,440
and you know, they each kind of had their own

712
00:38:16,599 --> 00:38:19,519
unique story, which I think also is what we found

713
00:38:19,559 --> 00:38:22,280
so fascinating about, like what drew them to it and

714
00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:26,000
what their experience was like in getting the game piece

715
00:38:26,039 --> 00:38:28,840
and then lying about how they got the game piece.

716
00:38:30,519 --> 00:38:33,119
Speaker 4: We talked top of the pod about the fact that

717
00:38:33,159 --> 00:38:37,840
the Monopoly game is such a huge pop culture presence

718
00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:42,000
that I kind of didn't recognize that it had faded out.

719
00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:44,679
Can you guys address what was the fate of the

720
00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:48,480
Monopoly game after this whole thing came out? Do you

721
00:38:48,639 --> 00:38:53,079
think that sweepstakes games of that type are going to

722
00:38:53,079 --> 00:38:55,039
come back into vogue at some point or are we

723
00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:58,079
done with it because of what happened with mcmillions?

724
00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:02,159
Speaker 5: You know it, it's funny as soon as this happened,

725
00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:05,159
of course, they cut that game off, you know, to

726
00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:07,920
McDonald's credit. Even though they knew that they were going

727
00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:09,599
to be in the line of fire, they ran this

728
00:39:09,679 --> 00:39:12,280
game one more time because the FBI asked them to,

729
00:39:12,519 --> 00:39:14,079
and they knew they were going to get sued. They

730
00:39:14,119 --> 00:39:18,800
knew everything about this was not good. And usually for

731
00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:22,159
corporations where we were always fascinated by the idea that

732
00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:24,679
you know, you're used to the corporate greed thing of

733
00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:27,920
like if we just cut this out now and don't participate,

734
00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:31,199
no one will be the wiser, right, we just kind

735
00:39:31,199 --> 00:39:34,679
of brushed us under the rug. But you know, FBI

736
00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:37,519
and their CEO at the time, Jack Greenberg, said he

737
00:39:37,559 --> 00:39:40,559
did what he would want to do, which he thought

738
00:39:40,599 --> 00:39:45,039
was best for his customers. So they participated. And this

739
00:39:45,119 --> 00:39:48,719
comes out McDonald's Monopoly game is toast. So McDonald's doesn't

740
00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:51,599
run that again. And then to make up for it,

741
00:39:51,639 --> 00:39:53,960
they ran another game which we talked about in the

742
00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:56,519
book and is in the documentary, where they gave away

743
00:39:56,559 --> 00:39:59,800
twenty million dollars over the span of twenty weeks. I

744
00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:02,079
think it was like one, you know, a million dollars

745
00:40:02,079 --> 00:40:06,920
every week and Amy Murray and at home to people

746
00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:09,400
who worked it at McDonald's at the time, that really

747
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:11,920
helped the FBI with all of this, had to run

748
00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:15,079
the game internally because usually, and this is the crux

749
00:40:15,119 --> 00:40:17,760
of how this whole scam worked was, you know, a

750
00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:20,039
marketing company runs a game like this. For a large

751
00:40:20,039 --> 00:40:23,119
company like McDonald's, they had to run it internally, and

752
00:40:23,159 --> 00:40:26,760
then these two people were really spearheading this entire effort.

753
00:40:27,079 --> 00:40:30,079
So as far as the future things, we still see

754
00:40:30,079 --> 00:40:32,639
the sweep stakes all the time. McDonald's hasn't run the

755
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:36,800
Monopoly game in well over a decade, but you know,

756
00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:40,719
like in southern California, Vaughn's and Ralphs have both you know,

757
00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:43,519
have run the Monopoly game, and other places we've seen

758
00:40:44,039 --> 00:40:47,840
just different sweep stakes like that happen. There are far

759
00:40:48,039 --> 00:40:52,320
better security protocols these days, so hopefully they do come back.

760
00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:56,320
I personally really hope that McDonald's does run the Monopoly

761
00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:59,039
game again, just for the nostalgia factor alone.

762
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:04,480
Speaker 2: How did McDonald's react to the documentary when it came out.

763
00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:08,880
Speaker 6: You know, they were great team players. I mean they

764
00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:12,239
were the hardest to get on board. In fact, we

765
00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:15,079
didn't know if we would actually get them in the

766
00:41:15,159 --> 00:41:18,239
documentary in time, like from the first outreach to them

767
00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:21,119
finally coming around. I think it was like eighteen months,

768
00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:24,840
so we were like nearing a fine cut or a

769
00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:27,679
locked cut of our first episode. When we finally got

770
00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:31,639
the okay, they were, you know, one of the and

771
00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:33,519
you know, we went out, we met them in person.

772
00:41:33,639 --> 00:41:35,639
We kind of did the whole song and dance, explained

773
00:41:35,679 --> 00:41:37,599
to them what we wanted to do and why we

774
00:41:37,639 --> 00:41:42,239
wanted to do it, just time their corporate turnover and

775
00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:45,480
reorgs and things that were happening while we were in pursuit.

776
00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:48,920
Once they participated, you know, we were kind of in

777
00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:52,639
lockstep with them for a couple things, like the in

778
00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:56,440
the recreations, you know, the cinematic we found in old

779
00:41:56,559 --> 00:42:00,480
McDonald's that had not been renovated to you know what

780
00:42:00,519 --> 00:42:03,119
you see McDonald's today. We're like, we'd like to shoot

781
00:42:03,159 --> 00:42:06,000
at this McDonald's. And they said, well, you're going to

782
00:42:06,039 --> 00:42:08,920
have to get corporate to like to approve it. And

783
00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:12,079
so we went back to our people at McDonald's and said, hey,

784
00:42:12,159 --> 00:42:14,440
we like to do this, and you know, we went

785
00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:16,840
through the whole procedure and they were like, okay, we'll

786
00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:19,199
let you do it. We'll let you convert the whole

787
00:42:19,239 --> 00:42:23,079
place into like you know, nineties nostalgic McDonald's.

788
00:42:23,719 --> 00:42:24,559
Speaker 3: The only thing.

789
00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:27,960
Speaker 6: We ask is you don't film behind the cook line

790
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:32,639
because there's proprietary technology or something like that. Like, you know,

791
00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:35,360
they didn't want they didn't want us getting like showing

792
00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:39,440
people like what was behind the front line. And then

793
00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:42,360
once we saw like once we you know, once we

794
00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:46,840
had the cut done. We actually premiered at Sundance twenty

795
00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:50,360
twenty right before the world shut down, and all the

796
00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:53,400
execs or the main execs that we had met with,

797
00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:55,280
actually came out to Sundance.

798
00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:58,079
Speaker 2: They did that surprises now.

799
00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:03,440
Speaker 6: They were there and you know, alongside we had the

800
00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:06,280
federal prosecutor. We had a couple of them. You know,

801
00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:08,599
Gloria Brown was there, which was also kind of just

802
00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:13,199
and it was like Gloria Brown with like Amy Murray. Yeah,

803
00:43:13,599 --> 00:43:17,239
we like seeing each other for the first time since

804
00:43:17,519 --> 00:43:20,800
the undercover operation, like that was the last time that

805
00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:23,880
they had seen each other. It was it was surreal.

806
00:43:23,960 --> 00:43:27,199
It was like a wild ride for us. But everyone

807
00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:30,280
was really happy with with how it turned out, not

808
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:35,280
only those who were trepidacious about participating, but McDonald's themselves.

809
00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:37,280
I mean, in a lot of ways, we just thought

810
00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:41,079
that it was such a peculiar thing that they sent

811
00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:45,800
somebody from internally to help the FBI in an investigation

812
00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:49,519
go undercover. Like when does that happen? Like that's that's

813
00:43:49,559 --> 00:43:52,119
a great Like we're not talking about what's in the

814
00:43:52,199 --> 00:43:56,559
chicken mcnautiguts here, We're just talking about how in the

815
00:43:56,599 --> 00:43:59,440
world they they found the person who was behind this

816
00:43:59,519 --> 00:44:02,199
monopoly McDonald's fraud case.

817
00:44:03,079 --> 00:44:06,880
Speaker 4: Okay, wait, I have to know where is the unrenovated

818
00:44:07,199 --> 00:44:10,360
nineties Mickey D's. I really really want to never are

819
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:11,280
you not allowed.

820
00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:11,679
Speaker 3: To tell us?

821
00:44:12,159 --> 00:44:14,719
Speaker 5: We Well, we can tell you because it has since

822
00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:17,559
been renovated. I think it's like a month after we

823
00:44:17,639 --> 00:44:20,719
filmed there, they leveled it and renovated it. So it

824
00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:24,840
was in the valley in California out correct in Los Angeles.

825
00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:26,400
I forget exactly it was like Sun Valley.

826
00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:29,119
Speaker 6: I think it was actually that we were lucky that

827
00:44:29,199 --> 00:44:32,760
it was in like in southern California, because we had

828
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:35,599
somebody that was working with us internally. I think that

829
00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:38,719
called like a hundred McDonald's or something like that to

830
00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:41,639
find out who had been renovated. We talked about building

831
00:44:41,679 --> 00:44:44,400
one or kind of creating the set of one, and

832
00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:47,519
it was so cool to be able to go in there,

833
00:44:47,519 --> 00:44:49,320
and we shut one down for the afternoon.

834
00:44:49,719 --> 00:44:51,440
Speaker 4: I want one of the ones with the big play

835
00:44:51,440 --> 00:44:53,159
place outside, you know.

836
00:44:53,199 --> 00:44:56,880
Speaker 3: With all of the old school characters.

837
00:44:56,480 --> 00:44:57,360
Speaker 5: Everything like that.

838
00:44:57,639 --> 00:44:57,840
Speaker 2: Yeah.

839
00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:01,239
Speaker 5: One of the shots that we have is you're seeing

840
00:45:01,639 --> 00:45:04,280
the McDonald's a monopoly like sign being put up, like

841
00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:06,639
they are the person who slides the letters in. Yeah,

842
00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:09,000
and the background is the big play place and you

843
00:45:09,039 --> 00:45:12,159
see the old brown tile roof and it was just

844
00:45:12,840 --> 00:45:14,159
nostalgia for days.

845
00:45:14,559 --> 00:45:16,440
Speaker 2: One of the things I noticed both of you are

846
00:45:16,440 --> 00:45:19,559
in your office now and you're in separate offices. Both

847
00:45:19,559 --> 00:45:22,800
of you have a mcmillion's poster on your wall, and

848
00:45:22,840 --> 00:45:27,800
then I'm holding a copy of the book. The graphics

849
00:45:28,159 --> 00:45:32,880
are very close to what McDonald's uses. You've got golden

850
00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:36,639
arches appearing. Was there any pushback there? I mean, this

851
00:45:36,840 --> 00:45:40,840
isn't a book that is written by the McDonald's corporation

852
00:45:41,159 --> 00:45:45,239
or exactly about the McDonald's corporation. Did they have to

853
00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:50,480
give you permission to use these graphic elements that.

854
00:45:50,159 --> 00:45:53,280
Speaker 5: They do not? Because there's a certain percentage that you

855
00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:56,360
can change an image, so you can hint at something,

856
00:45:56,719 --> 00:46:01,199
but it isn't the thing itself, So like that's why

857
00:46:01,599 --> 00:46:06,039
very specifically, like you see a sliver of one side

858
00:46:06,039 --> 00:46:09,239
of the arch, your brain fills in the gap.

859
00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:17,440
Speaker 2: And the McDonald's character whatever his name is McDonald, Yeah,

860
00:46:18,599 --> 00:46:21,840
well I think that's you know, Daddy Warbucks or whatever.

861
00:46:23,719 --> 00:46:26,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, that the guy who's behind Brian on the wall.

862
00:46:27,039 --> 00:46:31,719
Speaker 2: Right, you're also you're also doing the same thing there,

863
00:46:31,719 --> 00:46:35,840
which is you're showing just enough to make the suggestion correct.

864
00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:41,440
Speaker 6: It's definitely more of a legal question from from what

865
00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:45,119
they say is okay, but yeah, I mean it's yeah,

866
00:46:45,159 --> 00:46:48,039
we're not looking at it as like this is as

867
00:46:48,119 --> 00:46:50,920
Jim said, your mind can fill in in the rest

868
00:46:51,079 --> 00:46:53,599
and that that's the most important thing. I mean obviously,

869
00:46:53,639 --> 00:46:57,519
like you know, those colors are synonymous with they're pretty

870
00:46:57,639 --> 00:47:01,079
common colors. But yeah, you also see with a lot

871
00:47:01,079 --> 00:47:04,039
of fast food companies, and you know, this is a

872
00:47:04,119 --> 00:47:07,519
story that's rooted in in a fast food giant. Part

873
00:47:07,519 --> 00:47:10,079
of it is important to like make the connection out

874
00:47:10,079 --> 00:47:10,719
of the gate.

875
00:47:11,159 --> 00:47:15,159
Speaker 2: But suggest without necessarily crossing over the line or whatever.

876
00:47:15,920 --> 00:47:18,880
Speaker 3: Right, James has said, a massive bottle of coke.

877
00:47:18,760 --> 00:47:23,000
Speaker 5: Behind you, Yeah it is. It's from another project that

878
00:47:23,039 --> 00:47:25,920
we film that isn't out yet, but we had to

879
00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:29,039
create it for this funny scenario that happens in it,

880
00:47:30,239 --> 00:47:32,800
like that's we're not throwing that thing away.

881
00:47:33,559 --> 00:47:38,079
Speaker 2: I gotta I gotta keep that thing. Yeah, this looks

882
00:47:38,119 --> 00:47:41,880
to be like a six foot tall bottle of Coca Col's.

883
00:47:42,239 --> 00:47:45,519
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's pretty close. It probably is about six foot.

884
00:47:46,679 --> 00:47:50,159
Speaker 6: You know this video, I would suggest that you you

885
00:47:50,199 --> 00:47:51,800
put it on because it's I.

886
00:47:51,679 --> 00:47:56,400
Speaker 5: Don't physically fit. I've tried. It's terrible, much smaller than me.

887
00:47:58,320 --> 00:48:00,760
Speaker 4: Well, that actually does bring us to our our final question,

888
00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:03,000
which is what is next for both of you? And

889
00:48:03,079 --> 00:48:06,760
apparently the next project involves six foot wearable Coca Cola bottles.

890
00:48:07,559 --> 00:48:10,440
Speaker 6: Well, you know, we've had the good fortune this last

891
00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:13,360
year of having a lot of you know, like not

892
00:48:13,519 --> 00:48:16,360
of our book come out, but we had an eleven

893
00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:20,960
part podcast, an Apple Original podcast called Scamtown that is

894
00:48:21,079 --> 00:48:25,639
eleven unique, quirky, stranger than fiction stories. So if you're

895
00:48:25,679 --> 00:48:28,519
a fan of mcmillions, or if you had a chance

896
00:48:28,519 --> 00:48:30,880
to see The Big Con, which is also an Apple

897
00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:33,400
Original series which we were really proud of how that

898
00:48:33,440 --> 00:48:37,840
turned out, Scamtown is a perfect extension of the types

899
00:48:37,880 --> 00:48:39,880
of crime stories that we've been into.

900
00:48:40,599 --> 00:48:43,400
Speaker 5: Yeah, we also had although to be a debut at

901
00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:46,440
south By Southwest and twenty twenty three with the Hurricanes

902
00:48:46,440 --> 00:48:49,800
that's coming out soon, which we produced. It's about the

903
00:48:49,840 --> 00:48:53,480
first all women's tackle football league that existed in the

904
00:48:53,559 --> 00:48:56,280
late sixties early seventies and one of the main the

905
00:48:56,320 --> 00:48:58,960
main teams in that is really fascinating story.

906
00:49:00,239 --> 00:49:02,840
Speaker 2: You guys have had the ability to do, which both

907
00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:06,320
Kristin and I found very interesting. You are finding stories

908
00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:09,880
that many other people haven't told or the rest of

909
00:49:09,960 --> 00:49:12,480
us in the world didn't know about. Is that a

910
00:49:12,519 --> 00:49:15,480
conscious effort on your part to say, man, this is

911
00:49:15,519 --> 00:49:18,239
a great story. And I don't think anybody's ever written

912
00:49:18,239 --> 00:49:19,840
about this or talked about this.

913
00:49:20,639 --> 00:49:23,039
Speaker 6: I think that yeah, when a story, when you find

914
00:49:23,079 --> 00:49:25,840
a story or you know, and I mean the case

915
00:49:25,840 --> 00:49:28,599
I make millions. It was just like how you stumble

916
00:49:28,679 --> 00:49:31,239
upon things, and you know, it's very easy to just

917
00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:33,400
throw something away or just be like, oh, that was

918
00:49:33,480 --> 00:49:37,039
like a fleeting moment and whatnot. And there's always like

919
00:49:37,119 --> 00:49:39,119
there can be an article or something out there that

920
00:49:39,199 --> 00:49:40,840
you read it and you're like, oh wow, that made

921
00:49:40,840 --> 00:49:44,880
me think. But it takes like a real leap to say, okay,

922
00:49:44,880 --> 00:49:47,599
I'm going to invest the next year or two of

923
00:49:47,599 --> 00:49:52,280
my life for the deep dive into aggregating maybe information

924
00:49:52,360 --> 00:49:54,400
that could be out there in the public sphere, but

925
00:49:54,440 --> 00:49:57,840
going far, far deeper than what's already been brought to

926
00:49:57,880 --> 00:50:00,639
the surface, and say like, okay, think about this in

927
00:50:00,719 --> 00:50:03,840
terms of the multiple layer you know, and how deep

928
00:50:03,920 --> 00:50:08,360
this story goes to create this compelling story. I mean,

929
00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:10,880
the big con was like, it's like a real life

930
00:50:11,039 --> 00:50:14,480
Saw Goodman story, you know, and we loved better call Saul,

931
00:50:14,519 --> 00:50:17,320
and it's like the fact that there's like this flamboyant

932
00:50:17,320 --> 00:50:21,119
attorney that had every billboard in town and defrauded the

933
00:50:21,159 --> 00:50:25,440
federal government out of five hundred million dollars over multiple years.

934
00:50:25,440 --> 00:50:27,880
And then finally when he gets busted, like cuts his

935
00:50:27,920 --> 00:50:30,760
angle bit bracelet off and goes on the run. It

936
00:50:30,880 --> 00:50:33,800
was just like, how how is this story not out

937
00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:37,199
there in the public sphere? Like in a way, and

938
00:50:37,239 --> 00:50:40,159
we just you know, we got fortunate that in that case,

939
00:50:40,199 --> 00:50:42,840
we get we got the main person, We got er

940
00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:46,159
Con to talk to us, and hearing you know, from

941
00:50:46,280 --> 00:50:49,760
him directly, you've got a whole new perspective on what

942
00:50:49,960 --> 00:50:53,320
was going through his mind, you know, as these crimes

943
00:50:53,320 --> 00:50:57,360
were unfolding. So I mean, we're always looking for things

944
00:50:57,360 --> 00:51:00,239
that haven't been told or might have only like been

945
00:51:00,239 --> 00:51:03,840
told in an immorsel of a story, to see how

946
00:51:04,400 --> 00:51:05,440
much deeper it can go.

947
00:51:06,360 --> 00:51:11,199
Speaker 7: The book is called mcmillion's The Absolutely True Story of

948
00:51:11,239 --> 00:51:14,199
how an unlikely pair of FBI agents brought down the

949
00:51:14,239 --> 00:51:18,519
most supersized fraud in fast food history, and the documentary

950
00:51:18,639 --> 00:51:22,920
is a six parter available on is It HBO Max.

951
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Speaker 5: It's on HBO Linear and Max streaming.

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Speaker 3: James Brian this was an absolute delight.

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Speaker 4: The book is wonderful, the documentary is wonderful, and we

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have loved having you on with us.

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Speaker 3: Thank you so much for joining us today.

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Speaker 5: Thank you for having us.

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Speaker 6: This is great, this is fun.

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Speaker 3: Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next time.

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Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and

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Another Dog Productions.

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Speaker 2: Our executive producers Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley.

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Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois.

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00:52:05,320 --> 00:52:07,360
Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McLeod.

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Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with Coral Space Media.

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Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter or Instagram.

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Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway

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00:52:18,599 --> 00:52:20,440
murders on Facebook.

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Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at

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Bill Thomas. Five six.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Mind over Murder.