1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,839 Speaker 1: We already see this cultural popular rhetoric of trying to 2 00:00:04,000 --> 00:00:07,679 equate now the Abrahamic faiths. We're seeing it through the institutions, 3 00:00:07,679 --> 00:00:10,400 and of course Pope Francis is sort of the headworking 4 00:00:10,720 --> 00:00:13,759 face of this on the Christian side, Abrahamic house of faith. 5 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:16,280 How this fits into all this stuff? And then we 6 00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:19,000 can backtrack back into the funding and so we're seeing 7 00:00:19,039 --> 00:00:21,800 the endpoint of something that's been pushed for well over 8 00:00:21,839 --> 00:00:22,600 one hundred years. 9 00:00:22,679 --> 00:00:24,399 Speaker 2: And so while it's true that we might be able 10 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:26,960 to accept the ritual that went on in another church, 11 00:00:27,079 --> 00:00:29,640 right there can be the acceptance of this or that 12 00:00:29,719 --> 00:00:32,679 ritual that was done in a certain way. We don't 13 00:00:32,679 --> 00:00:36,200 make a judgment that they were necessarily therefore received into 14 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:46,200 the mystical body. We don't know that the hell. 15 00:00:55,759 --> 00:00:59,079 Speaker 1: I want to dive into the ecumenism and the problems 16 00:00:59,079 --> 00:01:03,960 with this, and you know, to start with, where do 17 00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:09,159 you see this problem sort of emerging? Ecumenicism is obviously 18 00:01:09,719 --> 00:01:13,480 historically associated with Christianity, but you could point towards the 19 00:01:13,519 --> 00:01:16,760 Renaissance with the priscal theologia and the perennialism and stuff 20 00:01:16,799 --> 00:01:19,480 like that. But maybe just to open up for people, 21 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:24,959 what is ecumenism, And how does this develop into because 22 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:26,599 I assume we're eventually going to get into some of 23 00:01:26,599 --> 00:01:29,680 the major foundations that funded this stuff. How does it 24 00:01:29,799 --> 00:01:30,879 lead up to that point? 25 00:01:31,799 --> 00:01:36,159 Speaker 2: Yeah, great question. So the origins are not anything nefarious. Right. 26 00:01:36,159 --> 00:01:39,879 The term itself acumenae is where we get the same 27 00:01:39,959 --> 00:01:42,719 terminology for ecumenical councils. Right. So a lot of people 28 00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:47,280 might be confused thinking that the modern ecumenist movement is 29 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:51,040 synonymous with the ecumenical councils, and that is not the case. 30 00:01:51,239 --> 00:01:54,400 So there's a big difference between the attitude of the church, 31 00:01:54,439 --> 00:01:56,799 say in the first thousand years, when there's an ecumenical 32 00:01:56,799 --> 00:02:00,400 council called with the purpose of reconciling every every body, 33 00:02:00,719 --> 00:02:05,200 which is done with the presupposition that somebody is going 34 00:02:05,239 --> 00:02:08,360 to come back to the truth. Right, somebody's right and 35 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:11,599 somebody's wrong. Right. For example, in the Council of Nicea, 36 00:02:12,199 --> 00:02:14,879 we don't just try to find a middle position between 37 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:19,400 arianism and the dety of Christ. Right. It's not this 38 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:22,360 project of just always trying to find the happy medium. 39 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:25,960 It's a question of the ecumenism of return, as it's 40 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:29,120 eventually called in the modern era, and that's the acumenism 41 00:02:29,199 --> 00:02:33,400 that gets rejected. So if we understand that the origins 42 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:35,800 of it come out of, as we said, the notion 43 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:39,840 of the ocumenity of the Universal Church. Nothing wrong with that, 44 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:44,319 nothing malicious, nothing problematic about that. But where we start 45 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:47,280 to see this verging into something else is I think 46 00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:51,879 you're right to point to actually papalism. So the origins 47 00:02:51,879 --> 00:02:57,240 of the cumunist movement, where we subordinate the theological truths 48 00:02:57,319 --> 00:03:02,199 to geopolitical truths, papalism you know, as the you know, 49 00:03:02,639 --> 00:03:05,159 unifying factor in all Christianity something like that, which I 50 00:03:05,199 --> 00:03:09,400 would say is largely a kind of a geopolitical focus. 51 00:03:09,879 --> 00:03:11,599 So that that's where we start to see it, and 52 00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:13,840 it starts to emerge. As you know, we get a 53 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:15,800 revolution of the church in the eleventh century to the 54 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:20,520 during the Gregorian Reforms, where papalism takes on a new 55 00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:24,080 level far beyond what anybody had seen before. And even 56 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:29,400 Eastern Catholic theologians admit that the Roman Catholic Eastern Uniates 57 00:03:29,439 --> 00:03:32,400 admit that the eleventh centuries where we really starts to 58 00:03:32,439 --> 00:03:35,280 see the Gregorian revolution, and so that revolution in the 59 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:38,199 church paves the way for the Western Latin Church to 60 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:41,240 engage in quite a few revolutions, one of which is 61 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:43,400 that Renaissance period that you're talking about, which I know 62 00:03:43,439 --> 00:03:45,039 you know about because you talked about it when I 63 00:03:45,039 --> 00:03:47,520 did an event. You know, that period where we have 64 00:03:47,599 --> 00:03:50,919 a lot of neoplatonic magic coming to the fore, especially 65 00:03:50,919 --> 00:03:55,800 people like Agrippa, and people don't randolah these figures, right, 66 00:03:55,879 --> 00:03:58,919 they have a new approach to what you call, right 67 00:03:58,919 --> 00:04:01,639 the PRIs cathological which wi is a form of perennialism 68 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:03,759 where now all of the religions are kind of just 69 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:09,240 instantiations of a higher you know, supra religion, right, And 70 00:04:09,479 --> 00:04:14,639 the goal of this particular religions is ultimately to maybe 71 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:18,279 conform to or eventually converge in some kind of universal religion. 72 00:04:18,319 --> 00:04:20,959 And some of those Renaissance figures did write about the 73 00:04:20,959 --> 00:04:24,279 possibility of some you know, future new religion. I've been 74 00:04:24,319 --> 00:04:27,959 reading through the book that came out from Cambridge about 75 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:33,360 the Byzantine figure of Plethon. It was to modern Cumunism, 76 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:36,720 and Plethon was a Platonic pagan name was a Platonic 77 00:04:36,759 --> 00:04:41,120 pagan who said who wanted to revive the Platonic tradition 78 00:04:41,319 --> 00:04:44,079 in in Byzantum which had been shut down. So from 79 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:48,360 the time of Justin Saint Justinian up until the later 80 00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:52,160 stages of Byzantium you had an attempt to persecute and 81 00:04:52,199 --> 00:04:56,079 the pushing of Neoplatonism in all of its forms kind 82 00:04:56,079 --> 00:04:59,240 of underground. And then you see resurgence once Byzantium falls, 83 00:04:59,839 --> 00:05:05,279 and in that tradition of the prisca theological of the will, 84 00:05:05,319 --> 00:05:08,720 what will become modern ecumenism continues on in various secret 85 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:11,800 societies and various groups. So I'm not trying to equate 86 00:05:11,839 --> 00:05:13,560 all the humanism with a secret society, you know what 87 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:17,480 I'm saying. There are ideological predecessors which you've hinted at, 88 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:19,639 that are definitely there. So long story short, coming up 89 00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:24,040 to the modern era, even the Roman Catholic Church, ironically, 90 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:29,720 with various papal encyclicals, was very anti ecumenist all the 91 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:32,560 way up until the last anti acumunist statement by Pious 92 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:35,199 the eleventh and is famous in cyclical Mortalium Animals in 93 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:39,600 nineteen twenty eight. So even the papacy, which we might 94 00:05:39,639 --> 00:05:41,680 think at different times in history, has had this vent 95 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:45,399 towards a false ecumenism, a false union. For example, the 96 00:05:45,399 --> 00:05:49,839 Council of Florence is a false union. When we get 97 00:05:49,879 --> 00:05:53,319 to the modern period, the Roman Church is totally opposed 98 00:05:53,319 --> 00:05:57,120 to it because they saw it ironically as a Protestant movement, 99 00:05:58,279 --> 00:06:02,879 and it's Protestant because because we could probably trace what 100 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:05,279 we know of today as the Acumunist movement to the 101 00:06:05,319 --> 00:06:08,680 Anglican branch theory, and the Anglican branch theory is an 102 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:13,199 older Anglican theory to ecclesiology, which says, well, we're not 103 00:06:13,639 --> 00:06:17,839 full on Calvinist Protestants or you know, Congregationalists. We do 104 00:06:17,879 --> 00:06:19,560 believe there should be a hierarchy. We should have a 105 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:23,480 concern for the seven ecumenical councils of this kind of thing. 106 00:06:23,519 --> 00:06:26,120 I'm saying, the more high church Anglican right, the traditional 107 00:06:26,199 --> 00:06:28,680 Anglican view. But they said, we don't want to go 108 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:30,439 with the Roman Catholic view of the church, and we 109 00:06:30,439 --> 00:06:32,240 don't want an Orthodox view. We got to have we 110 00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:34,600 had to have a new theory, and so the Anglicans 111 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:36,720 developed what they call branch theory, which is the idea 112 00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:41,839 that the Church exists amongst these various branches. There's the 113 00:06:41,879 --> 00:06:45,160 Protestant branch. Anglican branch is the best I guess of 114 00:06:45,199 --> 00:06:47,879 the Protestants, there's the Orthodox branch, and there's the Roman 115 00:06:47,879 --> 00:06:50,680 Catholic branch, and then I guess the Oriental Orthodox that 116 00:06:50,759 --> 00:06:54,319 all branches out into different churches which are still in 117 00:06:54,360 --> 00:07:00,279 some way part of the one universal Catholic Church. That is, 118 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:02,399 of course, obviously not the Orthodox view. We have to 119 00:07:02,439 --> 00:07:05,879 reject branch theory, and traditional Roman Catholicism also is supposed 120 00:07:05,879 --> 00:07:09,279 to reject branch theory as well. But there's a change 121 00:07:09,319 --> 00:07:13,040 after the Mortalium Animals of nineteen twenty eight, and there's 122 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:16,560 also a change not everyone in Orthodoxy, but there begins 123 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:20,079 to be Anglican Orthodox dialogues amongst the Greeks. I think 124 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:23,079 in the eighteen nineties. I read several books on this 125 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:25,120 many years ago, and then there was some meetings between 126 00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:27,680 Anglicans and Orthodox and a few other places, And I 127 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:30,720 wouldn't even call those necessarily malicious, because it really depends 128 00:07:30,759 --> 00:07:33,600 on what the purpose or the attitude of the meetings is. 129 00:07:33,639 --> 00:07:36,600 There's nothing wrong with academic conferences, there's nothing wrong with 130 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:41,079 people getting together discussing their ideas. The problem, I think 131 00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:45,040 comes when we get into the nineteen thirties, forties, fifties 132 00:07:45,079 --> 00:07:49,040 and sixties where acumenism really begins to be co opted 133 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:52,680 in part of a geopolitical movement by very wealthy and 134 00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:58,040 powerful people to buy their own admission steer Christianity into 135 00:07:58,399 --> 00:08:00,959 a direction that they want to go in. So it's 136 00:08:00,959 --> 00:08:02,800 not really until we and then we that's when we 137 00:08:02,839 --> 00:08:05,360 start to see these entities like the National Council of Churches, 138 00:08:05,399 --> 00:08:07,800 the World Council of Churches, which really become the focus 139 00:08:07,839 --> 00:08:12,279 of ecumenical activities, as well as other entities too, and 140 00:08:12,319 --> 00:08:14,800 they're connected to the United Nations and these kinds of things. 141 00:08:15,199 --> 00:08:17,879 And again, initially, even the Roman Calloity Church all the 142 00:08:17,879 --> 00:08:21,319 way up until nineteen twenties totally condemns us. It says 143 00:08:21,319 --> 00:08:25,160 it's a heterodox mini Orthodox clergy, especially at that time, 144 00:08:25,199 --> 00:08:28,759 still condemned it. But you have this gradual warming up. 145 00:08:29,519 --> 00:08:32,799 And I'll end with this part, which is just the 146 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:37,200 main error is an ecclesiological error. And it's an ecclesiological 147 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:41,080 error because it's an historian type of Christology, which if 148 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:44,399 we think about Nestorianism and Christology, you have the two 149 00:08:44,519 --> 00:08:47,039 natures of Christ in the hypothetic union, right, we have 150 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:50,600 a single divine person with a human nature. The divine 151 00:08:50,639 --> 00:08:52,960 person possesses the divine nature and a human nature, but 152 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:56,159 he's not a human person. And so that perfect heypathetic 153 00:08:56,279 --> 00:09:00,399 union means that the mode in which God's presence in 154 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:04,159 the incarnate Christ is there is different than the mode 155 00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:06,840 of his presence everywhere else. Right, So it doesn't mean 156 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:10,639 that he's not omnipresent. Right when we think about Christ 157 00:09:10,679 --> 00:09:13,600 walking around in Jerusalem, Right, is it still true that 158 00:09:13,679 --> 00:09:17,080 Christ is omnipresent? Is he in China? Sure, because he's 159 00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:20,720 on the present, But what makes it his presence unique 160 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:23,320 when he's walking around incarnate over there in Jerusalem. Well, 161 00:09:23,399 --> 00:09:26,000 what makes him unique is that the mode of his 162 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:30,600 presence is as the incarnate Son. There's a unique presence 163 00:09:31,279 --> 00:09:33,440 of him over there, and the same we get that 164 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:36,200 with the Theophanes and with you know, the presence of 165 00:09:36,919 --> 00:09:38,879 the Ames of the Lord in the Old Testament. These 166 00:09:38,919 --> 00:09:41,159 theophanies show that while God is on the present, there's 167 00:09:41,159 --> 00:09:43,000 also a unique sense in which he can be present 168 00:09:43,039 --> 00:09:46,279 at a specific place in a specific time. Right, And 169 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:51,879 that crystological basis is what informs our ecclesiology. So we 170 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:55,279 can't have an ecclesiology divorced from Christology because the Church 171 00:09:55,399 --> 00:09:58,919 is the body of Christ. Therefore, whatever is true of 172 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:02,519 Christology in terms of Christ being a theanthropic being, the 173 00:10:02,559 --> 00:10:05,919 god Man, must also be the case for the mystical 174 00:10:05,919 --> 00:10:08,279 body of the Church. And the mystical body of the 175 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:12,480 Church is not split, divided, or amongst thousands of different sects. 176 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:16,559 So that's why we have to understand that modern e 177 00:10:16,639 --> 00:10:20,039 humanism is an ecclesiological heresy because it does what an 178 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:22,639 historian does. It does for the Church what an Astorianism 179 00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:25,480 does for Christology, which is that it says that the 180 00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:29,759 divine presence is actually divided from the visible bodily presence. Right, 181 00:10:29,759 --> 00:10:32,360 he split into a division there, because yeah, Christ might 182 00:10:32,399 --> 00:10:34,639 be in some special way in the Orthodox Church, but 183 00:10:34,679 --> 00:10:37,080 he's also present everywhere. And the argument is always, well, 184 00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:39,919 don't you think the Holy Spirit is everywhere present? Yeah, 185 00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:41,840 but that's not the argument. The argument is not about 186 00:10:41,879 --> 00:10:44,840 his omnipresence. The argument is about his unique presence in 187 00:10:44,879 --> 00:10:47,279 his mystical body, which is the Church. And it cannot 188 00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:49,440 be a thousand of whole says there's one holy Catholic 189 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:52,200 Apostolic Church, right right, one body. It's well, the creed 190 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:55,519 says that following what's in Ephesians and other tom And 191 00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:57,360 one last thing I'll say is that that does not 192 00:10:57,519 --> 00:11:00,200 mean as everybody sort of assumes that I'm saying, Oh, 193 00:11:00,279 --> 00:11:04,840 I'm damning everyone else. I don't know people's individual destinies. 194 00:11:04,919 --> 00:11:07,000 We're not told that. God, I think, in his wisdom 195 00:11:07,080 --> 00:11:09,759 doesn't give us because how bad are we at judging 196 00:11:09,799 --> 00:11:13,519 these kinds of right, I don't know people's ultimate destinies. 197 00:11:13,559 --> 00:11:15,320 And I think many church fathers, if you look at 198 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:20,039 the tradition of you know, baptism, desire baptism of blood. 199 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:22,919 The Church has always accounted them amongst the saints, and 200 00:11:22,919 --> 00:11:25,200 so that means that people can be united to the 201 00:11:25,279 --> 00:11:30,039 Church in unique ways that are known only to God, 202 00:11:30,759 --> 00:11:33,120 such as the thief on the cross. Right, I think 203 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:36,679 it's entirely possible that Christ can unite people to Him 204 00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:39,879 that have not gone through the normative means of baptism 205 00:11:39,919 --> 00:11:43,279 and reception of the Church. Right, so Christ can make 206 00:11:43,399 --> 00:11:46,120 up for what the Church fails to do. But we 207 00:11:46,159 --> 00:11:50,000 don't compromise the doctrine of the body. Because of that, 208 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:51,960 we have to have both of these things in tandem. 209 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:54,519 And in atth Lasting there's actually a section where Saint 210 00:11:54,519 --> 00:11:57,120 Maximus talks about this is really good. I think it's 211 00:11:57,159 --> 00:11:58,960 I'm going from memory here, but it might be thirteen 212 00:11:59,159 --> 00:12:04,519 or twenty three somewhere in there. It's the response to 213 00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:06,720 it's ad the lasting on the Holy Spirit and his 214 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:10,000 presence in the world, because the Ecumenists will always argue that, well, 215 00:12:10,039 --> 00:12:13,279 the Holy Spirit's present everywhere, but that's not the argument. 216 00:12:13,279 --> 00:12:15,240 The argument is not is he on the present? The 217 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:20,000 argument is is the redemptive divinization work of the Holy 218 00:12:20,039 --> 00:12:22,799 Spirit present everywhere? Or is it only present in the 219 00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:25,799 mystical body? And say Maximus argues that the mode of 220 00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:28,399 the Holy Spirit's present, it's presence in the mystical body 221 00:12:28,519 --> 00:12:30,639 is unique and not the same as the motive his 222 00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:32,720 presence everywhere in nature. So while it's true that there's 223 00:12:32,799 --> 00:12:36,360 grace outside the church that leads people and pulls people 224 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:39,840 to Christ, no one can be saved without being united 225 00:12:39,879 --> 00:12:43,360 to that one mystical body of Christ. And are there 226 00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:46,000 thief on the cross people? Sure? I have no doubt 227 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:49,120 that in his own way God can do that. But 228 00:12:49,159 --> 00:12:51,679 that doesn't mean that a humanism is true. It doesn't 229 00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:55,159 mean that all religions are are essentially on a great 230 00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:59,080 gradation of scale of being right to the one true Church, 231 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:01,519 and that's the Vatican too. Model back in two model 232 00:13:01,559 --> 00:13:06,519 has the Roman Church in the center, Eastern Orthodox Protestants 233 00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:08,919 or Anglicans, and then it's sort of like and there's 234 00:13:08,919 --> 00:13:13,519 this scale of gradation, right, And that's not the case. 235 00:13:13,759 --> 00:13:15,919 So while it's true that there is grace outside the 236 00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:17,399 church and that's the only way that we could ever 237 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:20,000 come to the Church, it doesn't follow from that that 238 00:13:20,039 --> 00:13:23,360 the mystical body exists outside the body. That doesn't make 239 00:13:23,399 --> 00:13:25,600 any sense, because the Orthodox Church is the mystical body 240 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:26,480 of Christ, right. 241 00:13:26,519 --> 00:13:28,440 Speaker 1: And I want to hammer that point because there was 242 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:30,799 something I wanted to bring up as well, is that 243 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:34,080 I've noticed even within the Orthodox circles, and I've talked 244 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:37,240 with some people who follow your work, follow my channel, 245 00:13:37,759 --> 00:13:40,720 and they're in the Oriental Church, and there is a 246 00:13:40,759 --> 00:13:44,799 real emphasis trying to in a way obfuscate or blur 247 00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:48,039 that distinction. And it all comes down to Christology often, 248 00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:51,480 which like you said, is total reflection then of our ecclesiology. 249 00:13:51,759 --> 00:13:51,879 Speaker 2: Right. 250 00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:55,360 Speaker 1: And so before we even get into then the globalist 251 00:13:55,399 --> 00:14:00,639 funding and pushing of ecumenism, why is it that we 252 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:06,159 as Eastern Orthodox Christians have to maintain these fundamental distinctions 253 00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:09,960 when it comes to Christology, whether you're a monophyside, a Meophysite, 254 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:14,240 or an historian, that yes we share a lot of history, 255 00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:18,399 Yes we share a lot of doctrines and perspectives. But 256 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:21,039 this is coming down to the fundamental crux of again 257 00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:26,799 today's stream is as Orthodox apologists, we have to make 258 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:29,480 sure that we are defending the true faith in the 259 00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:32,559 true Church, and the true Christology and ecclesiology and all 260 00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:35,759 this stuff. So why is it that people who may think, 261 00:14:35,919 --> 00:14:38,360 you know what, I'm pretty sympathetic to all that Eastern 262 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:41,360 Orthodoxy stuff. I love that energy esage distinction and their 263 00:14:41,399 --> 00:14:45,159 Christology and how they do their apologetics. But you know, 264 00:14:45,399 --> 00:14:48,360 I'll commune over here in this church. That doesn't make 265 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:51,240 you orthodox in our in Eastern orthodox sins. You may 266 00:14:51,279 --> 00:14:54,840 be Oriental Orthodox or Assyrian or whatever, but that's not 267 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:58,159 the same thing. Can you explain why it is so 268 00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:00,320 important that you kind of already hit it, but why 269 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:05,240 we have to maintain these distinctions and separate Oriental or Catholic. 270 00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:08,039 You know, Protestantism we all get, but Catholic and Oriental 271 00:15:08,399 --> 00:15:10,799 they cannot be blended into Eastern Orthodoxy. 272 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:13,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, so's that's a great question. And I want to be, 273 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:15,759 you know, as clear as I can so people don't 274 00:15:15,759 --> 00:15:18,559 misunderstand me or taking my words out of context or whatever. 275 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:21,240 So let's be really nuanced and try to be as 276 00:15:21,279 --> 00:15:24,399 clear as possible. My understanding of this, and what I 277 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:31,679 would say is that the h from one bantage point, 278 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:36,480 it's in or out right. There's no half orthodox, there's 279 00:15:36,519 --> 00:15:40,679 no thirty percent Orthodox seventy five percent Orthodox right. You're 280 00:15:40,679 --> 00:15:43,559 either in the mystical body or you're not right. That's 281 00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:48,919 different from whether people who you know die and say 282 00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:51,799 Oriental Orthodoxy but didn't know anything about all the controversies 283 00:15:51,799 --> 00:15:55,600 and they never consciously believed in some heresy and thought 284 00:15:55,639 --> 00:15:58,240 that they were Orthodox right or something like that. You know, 285 00:15:58,320 --> 00:16:01,679 if Christ and his grace mystically unites them, he can 286 00:16:01,759 --> 00:16:04,200 do that. God. We can't say God doesn't do that. 287 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:07,440 We don't know that. But that's between them and God. 288 00:16:07,559 --> 00:16:10,679 That doesn't mean that I compromise all my ecclesiology or 289 00:16:10,679 --> 00:16:14,080 anything like that. We still have to maintain and operate 290 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:16,159 like the Apostles doing the Book of Acts, which is 291 00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:18,440 that when Paul, for example, goes out in the book 292 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:20,120 of Acts. There's two chapters. I think it's like eight, 293 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:23,039 and then like nineteen or eighteen or nineteen. You know, 294 00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:27,559 he finds people that are disciples of John the Baptist 295 00:16:27,799 --> 00:16:31,720 or of Apollos right, who have not been fully instructed, 296 00:16:32,559 --> 00:16:35,000 and they're kind of meeting together and doing their own thing. 297 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:38,559 And the notes in the Orthodox Study Bible are great 298 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:42,240 because they they make this point to stress that in 299 00:16:42,279 --> 00:16:45,200 those examples, Paul does the work of trying to bring 300 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:48,799 them under the episcopate. So he doesn't just say, oh, yeah, 301 00:16:48,799 --> 00:16:51,120 it's cool, you know, do whatever you want. We're all 302 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:53,960 non denominational, set up your rock band on the strip, 303 00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:57,080 mall church, right, because everything's cool. No, he says that's great, 304 00:16:57,240 --> 00:16:59,720 and he treats them like their brothers because they haven't 305 00:16:59,759 --> 00:17:04,200 done anything that would initially make them not brothers. And 306 00:17:04,279 --> 00:17:07,839 so he treats them as potentially in the church, potential 307 00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:10,720 brothers and tries to bring them under the episcopate. And 308 00:17:10,759 --> 00:17:13,359 I think that that's fine, we can do that. You 309 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:16,279 know that section where Jesus everybody always says, well, your 310 00:17:16,319 --> 00:17:18,880 cumunism is proven by the fact that you know they're 311 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:22,599 casting out demons and Jesus says let them alone. He 312 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:25,240 doesn't just say let them alone. He says, there's nobody 313 00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:27,359 who can cast out a demon of my name who 314 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:31,920 will not also soon be amongst us. So they always 315 00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:35,200 leave out that part, as if Jesus is just like, yeah, man, 316 00:17:35,279 --> 00:17:38,079 do whatever you want, dude. Everybody's doing their own thing, dude. 317 00:17:38,359 --> 00:17:39,519 It doesn't really work like that. 318 00:17:39,519 --> 00:17:42,200 Speaker 1: That's like that Jesus would love the sex workers and 319 00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:44,279 all the transgenders, and if he was here, he would 320 00:17:44,279 --> 00:17:46,920 probably be with all the homosexuals. Well, he would tell 321 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:49,279 them to stop doing what they're doing and then follow him. 322 00:17:49,319 --> 00:17:50,240 There's a difference there. 323 00:17:50,319 --> 00:17:52,400 Speaker 2: Yes, both things are true. So, yeah, he was hanging 324 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:54,559 out with the tax collectors and sinners, but he was 325 00:17:54,559 --> 00:17:56,640 also telling them to, you know, come to church, right, 326 00:17:58,000 --> 00:17:59,400 you know, he's setting up the church. You know what 327 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:01,839 I mean, follow me. Yeah, So exactly, Like there's two 328 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:03,640 parts to that, and a lot of people like to 329 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:08,920 leave out the other part. Yeah. So the situation with 330 00:18:09,039 --> 00:18:12,559 the humanism, then, I think, is that the body of 331 00:18:12,599 --> 00:18:14,519 my understanding is the mystical body of the church is 332 00:18:14,559 --> 00:18:17,720 the Orthodox Church. That's the presuppositions of the church, right, 333 00:18:18,079 --> 00:18:21,400 only the Orthodox Church has the healing of the news, 334 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:26,039 has the sacramental graces and power that are necessary to 335 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:30,440 accomplish what is lacking in those other churches. Right, And 336 00:18:30,519 --> 00:18:32,240 so while it's true that we might be able to 337 00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:36,279 accept the ritual that went on in another church, right, 338 00:18:36,279 --> 00:18:39,240 we can through economya there can be the acceptance of 339 00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:42,039 this or that ritual that was done in a certain way. 340 00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:46,039 We don't make a judgment that they were necessarily therefore 341 00:18:46,119 --> 00:18:49,839 received into the mystical body. We don't know that. And 342 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:52,480 I would say that the presuposition of the church is 343 00:18:52,519 --> 00:18:56,680 that the grace of the reception into our church, whether 344 00:18:56,720 --> 00:19:00,319 it's by christ Nation, baptism, or profession, makes up for 345 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:05,720 what was lacking in those situations. So, you know, the 346 00:19:05,759 --> 00:19:07,839 spirit of the law, I think is that God is 347 00:19:07,839 --> 00:19:10,640 not a miser and if he can save the thief 348 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:13,519 on the cross, and if he can, you know, save 349 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:17,680 the people or bring them under the episcopacy in the 350 00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:20,960 Book of Acts who are not fully instructed in the theology. 351 00:19:21,759 --> 00:19:25,880 We're not trying to make a PhD in theology the 352 00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:30,960 prerequisite for salvation. So we don't make the judgment calls 353 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:35,119 in individuals cases. However, we do make and I think 354 00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:38,079 this is this is a later sort of canon law 355 00:19:38,119 --> 00:19:41,359 concept that comes about later on in the Middle Ages. 356 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:45,359 But there's this idea that there's the what we call 357 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:48,400 the public profession, and so canon law these kinds of 358 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:54,200 things because we don't know people's intentions. The law the 359 00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:57,480 canon is not always trying to judge what can never 360 00:19:57,519 --> 00:20:00,559 really be known. It's trying to judge with what's in 361 00:20:00,599 --> 00:20:03,799 the public sphere. And so what's in the public sphere 362 00:20:03,839 --> 00:20:05,880 we can know. And that's when we have, for example, 363 00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:09,119 a public group that has a heterodox confession, for example, 364 00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:12,079 the Batist Church, right, the Baptist Church has a public 365 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:15,440 confession that is heterodox, and we say that that is 366 00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:19,319 a heterodox confession. Doesn't mean that I, as an individual 367 00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:21,799 then say, aha, I get to say everybody in the 368 00:20:21,839 --> 00:20:23,559 Babtist Church is going to hell, and I get to like, 369 00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:26,759 you know, use meets you and resent them on and 370 00:20:26,759 --> 00:20:30,480 feel like I'm better than everybody. That's not the right attitude, right. 371 00:20:30,839 --> 00:20:33,079 If I know that that's a heterodox confession, then my 372 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:35,400 attitude is I want those people to be healed and 373 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:37,880 I want them to come to the right faith. And 374 00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:41,440 so God doesn't tell us individual's destinies. But what he 375 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:43,359 does tell us is that it's our duty to tell 376 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:46,359 them to become orthodox, right, And that's always this has 377 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:49,039 always been my approach to this, and I think that 378 00:20:49,039 --> 00:20:52,160 that's the that's the balance position, and I'm always open 379 00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:54,559 to being corrected. I don't. I don't if I'm wrong 380 00:20:54,599 --> 00:20:57,000 about this. It's okay. If somebody has a better argument 381 00:20:57,039 --> 00:21:00,599 they can present that. I don't care. But that's my understanding, 382 00:21:00,599 --> 00:21:03,240 and that's that's how I would say that. On the 383 00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:06,279 one hand, people can be united to the church in 384 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:12,599 uh abnormal or extenuating circumstances by the thief on the cross, 385 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:15,079 but they're still being united to the body of Christ. 386 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:19,000 They're not being saved outside the church. There is no 387 00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:21,440 salvation outside the church. They're being united to the church 388 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:24,880 in a non normative way. But we don't leap from 389 00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:29,400 that to say, oh, well, then then everybody saved. Because right, 390 00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:32,039 let's let's one last sea. Let's take that go ahead. 391 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:36,680 Let's take the issue of heresy or schism in the church. Fathers, 392 00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:40,160 Heresy and schism are specific sins. Okay, you're not a 393 00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:44,079 heretic because you're just in some group, right, You're a 394 00:21:44,119 --> 00:21:49,599 heretic because with knowledge and obstinacy, right, you reject what 395 00:21:49,759 --> 00:21:51,759 is true, what is what has been presented to you? 396 00:21:52,759 --> 00:21:55,559 And so do we know in the case of people 397 00:21:55,559 --> 00:21:57,480 who have not been presented to the truth, if they're 398 00:21:57,519 --> 00:22:01,240 necessarily heretic. Well, later on the church develops in different 399 00:22:01,279 --> 00:22:04,759 theologians and different manuals and philosophers and stuff. For the 400 00:22:04,759 --> 00:22:08,279 distinction between material and formal heresy. And I would say that, 401 00:22:08,319 --> 00:22:10,480 even though it's used more commonly in the Latin Church, 402 00:22:10,599 --> 00:22:12,759 I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with that distinction, 403 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:16,119 because it's like, you know, the Baptist grandma, like she 404 00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:20,440 doesn't know anything about theology. Is she maliciously going around 405 00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:23,880 trying to be heretic? Not necessarily? So does that mean 406 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:27,960 she's saved? I'm not told that, right, I'm not told that. 407 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:28,720 Speaker 1: So. 408 00:22:29,759 --> 00:22:32,960 Speaker 2: I think the brilliant here of the Orthodox position, as 409 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:36,519 I understand it, is just that it's not my duty 410 00:22:36,559 --> 00:22:38,640 to sit around and try to figure out Paul says, 411 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:40,720 who are we to judge those that are without? God 412 00:22:40,799 --> 00:22:44,000 judges those right. Our concerns with those who are within, 413 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:46,559 and our duty is to tell those people to come in. 414 00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:49,319 What God does with them is up to God. I 415 00:22:49,319 --> 00:22:51,079 don't have to say. And that's so much easier because 416 00:22:51,079 --> 00:22:53,319 I don't have to sit around worrying about, you know, 417 00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:57,640 damning Baptist grannies all day or something like that. 418 00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:00,279 Speaker 1: Right, And it doesn't mean to do that, And it 419 00:23:00,279 --> 00:23:03,960 doesn't mean that we can't have friends associates of different 420 00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:07,000 you know, different walks of Christianity. That's not what we're saying. 421 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:09,480 We're not saying that you, as an orthodox Christian, you 422 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:12,720 can't be friends with people of different Christian persuasions. But 423 00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:15,480 that's why I titled it the Death of Truth, because 424 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:18,039 you keep referring back to the body of Christ. The 425 00:23:18,079 --> 00:23:21,799 body of Christ, the salvific Christ, is the truth capital 426 00:23:21,839 --> 00:23:24,079 t Truth is a who, not a what. And so 427 00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:29,960 therefore maintaining these theological nuances and distinctions is essential because 428 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:32,000 we're claiming we're led by the Holy Spirit. So the 429 00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:35,799 Holy Spirit, the paraclet is leading us towards the truth. 430 00:23:36,319 --> 00:23:39,880 We cannot then water down the doctrines or sort of 431 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:44,480 blur these distinctions so that it's more accommodating to other people. 432 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:47,480 So both it can be true, we can be friends 433 00:23:47,519 --> 00:23:49,640 with people, and we can be very cordial and in fact, 434 00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:53,160 you can interview other you know, Christian apologists or philosophers. 435 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:56,839 There's nothing wrong with that at all. However, equating then 436 00:23:56,880 --> 00:23:59,599 the faith and equating the traditions and saying that we're 437 00:23:59,599 --> 00:24:02,279 all seeing the same form of Christianity, that is not 438 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:06,240 the case. And by assuming that we'll eventually get into it, 439 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:08,680 it's now promoting a sense of relativism which is now 440 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:12,519 putting people entirely outside this salvific body of Christ, because 441 00:24:12,559 --> 00:24:16,079 this notion is keeping people away from the truth. 442 00:24:17,079 --> 00:24:19,599 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. Another important thing to mention here is the 443 00:24:19,599 --> 00:24:23,480 notion of communion, and in the Orthodox view, communion is 444 00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:28,799 only celebrated via the Confession of Dicythius in churches where 445 00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:32,000 the Orthodox bishop has given permission to the Orthodox priests 446 00:24:32,039 --> 00:24:35,319 to celebrate the Eucharist. The Eucharist is the symbol and 447 00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:40,000 sign of our communal unity. So it cannot exist, according 448 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:43,640 to the logic of the Confession of Decithios, outside of 449 00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:48,119 the Orthodox faith. So while Romeccallolus might have a service 450 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:51,680 and they might revere their wafers and all that, we 451 00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:54,480 as Orthodox would not say that that is I'm serious 452 00:24:54,519 --> 00:24:57,160 that we would not say that that is the body blood, soul, 453 00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:00,400 and uncreated energy of Christ right now again. And does 454 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:02,480 that mean that I'm damning all the Roman Catholics. I'm 455 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:06,119 not told the destiny of Roman Catholics. What I am told, though, 456 00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:09,240 is that outside of the Orthodox Church, there is not 457 00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:12,680 the medicine of healing, right, And so I want those 458 00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:14,880 people to have the medicine. And that's why I want 459 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:16,799 them to come into the Orthodox Church. I don't want 460 00:25:16,839 --> 00:25:18,440 them to just be in any kind of church, because 461 00:25:19,079 --> 00:25:26,160 defective theology typically leads to defective living and defective liturgical celebration. 462 00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:28,160 And that's why you see in the Roman Catholic Church. 463 00:25:28,559 --> 00:25:31,000 It's not the fault of the people, it's not the 464 00:25:31,039 --> 00:25:34,279 fault of the laity. It was a top down decision 465 00:25:34,519 --> 00:25:38,559 to renovate and revolutionize that church many many times over 466 00:25:38,599 --> 00:25:40,799 many centuries. And what you get now in a lot 467 00:25:40,839 --> 00:25:43,759 of those novusorio churches, the clown masses, the hip hop masses, 468 00:25:43,839 --> 00:25:46,359 the you know, I'm not being me and I'm being 469 00:25:46,759 --> 00:25:51,039 they are what they're doing. They don't serve to heal 470 00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:54,720 and give the medicine. They don't have the noetic power 471 00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:58,880 to heal the news, which is what we need. And 472 00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:01,240 that's why you know, Heroes does have a great point 473 00:26:01,279 --> 00:26:05,279 about the notion of the presubpositions of the faith. It's 474 00:26:05,319 --> 00:26:08,160 not just an intellectual thing, right, you also need the 475 00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:11,519 medicine that the sacraments of the Orthodox Church has, and 476 00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:14,759 the sacramentology in the Roman Catholic Church is getting so 477 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:18,079 wild that it's all over the place. So even some 478 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:20,799 Orthodox people will take issue with this attitude. And it's 479 00:26:20,839 --> 00:26:23,880 not because I have a desire to hate Roman Catholics 480 00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:26,599 or even hate the institution per se. I think it's 481 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:29,400 a dangerous institution. I think it leads people into a 482 00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:31,960 lot of delusions, and it wrecks a lot of people's 483 00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:35,680 faith because it's so corrupt. Yep. And that doesn't mean 484 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:37,559 that there's not corruption the Orthodox Church. It just means 485 00:26:37,599 --> 00:26:40,880 that that's a different structure, right, That's a top down structure, 486 00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:44,279 and if the top goes bad, the structure goes bad. Right. Again, 487 00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:47,839 doesn't even mean that people are bad people, right. I 488 00:26:47,839 --> 00:26:49,640 know a lot of Roman Catholics that I'm friends with, 489 00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:51,680 and I think that I think are cool. Amazingly still, 490 00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:54,519 after all these years, we still have Roman Catholic friends 491 00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:58,839 and we disagree and we can have civil you know, 492 00:26:59,039 --> 00:27:01,759 disagreements and still remain friends. I don't hate them, but 493 00:27:01,799 --> 00:27:04,000 I think a lot of people take, for example, you know, 494 00:27:04,039 --> 00:27:06,960 a lot of the aggressive stuff on Twitter or on 495 00:27:07,079 --> 00:27:09,839 YouTube debates or whatever against from a Catholics as if 496 00:27:09,839 --> 00:27:12,480 it's a hatred of those people as a class. It's not. 497 00:27:12,559 --> 00:27:16,759 It's a disagreement with a concern over a corrupt institution 498 00:27:17,039 --> 00:27:19,880 that For example, let me give you one example. There 499 00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:22,279 was a guy I won't name him, but just a 500 00:27:22,319 --> 00:27:24,759 prominent figure that I've never personally interacted with him. I 501 00:27:24,759 --> 00:27:27,839 did reach out to him and try to, you know, 502 00:27:27,839 --> 00:27:29,839 get him into Orthodoxy. And he was a very prominent 503 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:34,279 writer for a big Catholic publication, for online publication for 504 00:27:34,319 --> 00:27:36,880 many years, and he just kind of gradually was moving, 505 00:27:37,039 --> 00:27:42,039 you know, away from religion and as a whole, becoming 506 00:27:42,039 --> 00:27:44,920 more and more of an atheist because of these problems 507 00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:47,640 in the papacy. And I was watching the same because 508 00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:49,359 I had the same kind of course in my twenties 509 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:51,279 when I was a traditional Catholic and I was just 510 00:27:51,319 --> 00:27:52,920 getting more and more fed up, and I saw the 511 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:54,519 same thing, and I reached out and I said, look, 512 00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:57,599 you know, why don't you come chat with us? You know, 513 00:27:57,640 --> 00:27:59,400 come check out an Orthodox or something like that, and 514 00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:01,200 he was just like, now, I'm just I'm done. I'm 515 00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:04,279 done with religion as a whole, because I don't see 516 00:28:04,319 --> 00:28:06,519 any other church as being any any different than what's 517 00:28:06,559 --> 00:28:11,240 in the Roman Catholic Church. And in my experience, of 518 00:28:11,279 --> 00:28:13,440 course there's gonna be problems. Every church has problems, but 519 00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:15,480 I do think the Orthodox Church is different. It's a 520 00:28:15,599 --> 00:28:18,079 unique experience. It is not the same as my experience 521 00:28:18,079 --> 00:28:21,319 in the Roman Catholic Church at all. And if the 522 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:24,039 Roman Catholic Church is getting to the point where this 523 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:27,680 just look at the celebration of the sacraments. There's priests 524 00:28:27,799 --> 00:28:30,720 in the Roman Catholic Church that are saying in the baptisms, 525 00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:32,559 you are baptized in the name of the land, the sea, 526 00:28:32,599 --> 00:28:37,880 in the error, that's not a baptism. What. Yeah, There 527 00:28:39,119 --> 00:28:41,039 in the cases where they baptize in the name of 528 00:28:41,079 --> 00:28:46,359 the Mother, like the Goddess or the earth, yeah, and 529 00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:52,839 so on, nobody's standards are those actual baptisms because they're 530 00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:55,759 not even it's not even a ritual even close to 531 00:28:55,799 --> 00:28:59,279 the traditional ritual of the church. And it's not even trinitarian, 532 00:28:59,359 --> 00:29:03,119 right right, So if that's what's going on in the 533 00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:05,759 Roman Catholic world. And I'm not saying that's everyone. I'm 534 00:29:05,759 --> 00:29:07,400 just saying those are cases in the Roman Catholic world. 535 00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:09,319 And it's even crazier in the present world too. It's 536 00:29:09,359 --> 00:29:13,799 like it's getting crazy. Yeah, the logic of certain priests 537 00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:18,279 that it's more practical than and wise to have one 538 00:29:18,279 --> 00:29:20,960 way of receiving converts, which is the ro corps position, 539 00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:24,079 is a position of wisdom just because of how crazy 540 00:29:24,079 --> 00:29:26,079 it's getting. But I don't think that, and it's not 541 00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:29,240 my view that, oh if you if you were received 542 00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:32,720 by Christ nation, you're lost. And I've never said that. 543 00:29:32,759 --> 00:29:34,599 It's just really weird. And you know, people on the 544 00:29:34,599 --> 00:29:36,799 internet have been saying in the last week that that's 545 00:29:36,839 --> 00:29:38,960 my view. I never never said anything like that said. 546 00:29:39,039 --> 00:29:41,480 I've always said that the church is a grace economia 547 00:29:41,519 --> 00:29:43,880 makes up for whatever's like the econome. But I think 548 00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:47,839 that the position of ro corps is a wise position 549 00:29:48,039 --> 00:29:50,319 just because of what I said that, you know, if 550 00:29:50,319 --> 00:29:53,839 you're receiving people who you know, maybe I don't know. 551 00:29:53,839 --> 00:29:57,480 I was baptized as a Roman Catholic ten years ago 552 00:29:57,559 --> 00:29:59,759 in a crazy novsorto perish. I don't remember how they 553 00:29:59,759 --> 00:30:02,119 did it, well, what if they did it in the 554 00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:03,559 name of the land scene there and it wasn't real 555 00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:06,079 baptism at all, right, I mean, what do you want baptism? 556 00:30:06,119 --> 00:30:08,960 That's the point, right, right, So there is no rebaptism. 557 00:30:09,599 --> 00:30:12,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you're hitting on the Roman Catholicism thing. I mean, 558 00:30:12,759 --> 00:30:14,960 just within the last couple of years, we've seen Pascha Mama, 559 00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:19,680 which is a human sacrificial goddess of the Amazon, and 560 00:30:19,839 --> 00:30:22,960 more recently, which I know that you're clearly aware of, 561 00:30:23,079 --> 00:30:26,559 is the Abrahamic House of Faith, right, And so I 562 00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:30,920 just saw I just popping in. I saw Jordan Peterson 563 00:30:31,039 --> 00:30:34,039 just did an interview with like Madgin NOAs and the 564 00:30:34,079 --> 00:30:37,559 whole thing was criticizing net and Yahoo and the sort 565 00:30:37,599 --> 00:30:40,000 of Abrahamic accord. And so they're going forth and I'm 566 00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:42,000 not really interested in but I just clicked it earlier 567 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:45,599 today just to pass the time, and I hear Madgit's 568 00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:49,720 big upset because they talk about the Western civilization as 569 00:30:49,759 --> 00:30:52,960 Judeo Christian Judeo Christian, which is already a sort of misnomer. 570 00:30:53,359 --> 00:30:56,039 But how well this is, this is keeping the the 571 00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:58,799 is the Islamic faith outside of it. And you guys 572 00:30:58,799 --> 00:31:02,839 are basically set a limb of our Abrahamic faith and 573 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:06,319 our Abrahamic family. And so there is this real push 574 00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:09,240 right now to equate well, and even Jordan Peterson, oh, 575 00:31:09,279 --> 00:31:11,119 you guys share this. We all share the same book, 576 00:31:11,119 --> 00:31:16,079 which is really just the Old Testament, and we're all monotheisms, monotheisms, 577 00:31:16,079 --> 00:31:18,599 and we might be monotheisms, but we don't worship the 578 00:31:18,599 --> 00:31:21,839 same God. They don't worship a Trinitarian God. And so 579 00:31:22,559 --> 00:31:26,599 this we already see this cultural popular rhetoric of trying 580 00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:30,559 to equate now the Abrahamic faiths. We're seeing it through 581 00:31:30,599 --> 00:31:33,240 the institutions, and of course Pope Francis is sort of 582 00:31:33,279 --> 00:31:38,480 the headworking face of this on the on the Christian side, 583 00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:41,680 and he's trying to speak for all of Christians, even Orthodox, 584 00:31:41,759 --> 00:31:45,759 even Protestants, and and so I didn't know if you 585 00:31:45,799 --> 00:31:50,160 have any comments about how Abrahamic House of faith, how 586 00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:52,559 this fits into all this stuff. And then we can 587 00:31:52,599 --> 00:31:55,240 backtrack back into the funding. And so we're seeing the 588 00:31:55,359 --> 00:31:58,039 endpoint of something that's been pushed for well over one 589 00:31:58,079 --> 00:31:58,720 hundred years. 590 00:32:00,759 --> 00:32:02,880 Speaker 2: Right So the way we get up to this point 591 00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:09,039 of subversion is a situation where the subversion was intentionally 592 00:32:09,079 --> 00:32:11,880 designed by very wealthy, powerful people who saw that this 593 00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:14,839 new idea of what the church could be, that it 594 00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:17,440 could be more like an NGO, Right, they saw the 595 00:32:17,799 --> 00:32:23,240 opportunity to steer this in the direction of geopolitical motivations 596 00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:26,839 and geopolitical situations. And for example, in the Rockfeller's Authorized Biography, 597 00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:29,960 they have a whole chapter about the Accumenist movement, right, 598 00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:32,240 And you would think, well, why would these wealthy people 599 00:32:32,279 --> 00:32:35,319 care about now, I mean the most wealthy people in 600 00:32:35,359 --> 00:32:37,880 the US, right, why would they care about the ecumenist movement? 601 00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:42,799 And the answer is that they saw it as a 602 00:32:42,839 --> 00:32:48,759 way to bring in Roman Catholicism, Orthodoxy and Protestantism under 603 00:32:48,759 --> 00:32:51,720 this new agis of the World Council Churches National Council 604 00:32:51,799 --> 00:32:53,960 Churches that they had set up along with the United 605 00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:57,640 Nations UNESCO group, and in tandem with all those together, 606 00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:01,920 they felt like this could be a new religion, right, 607 00:33:02,839 --> 00:33:05,680 a new approach to Christianity where instead of there being 608 00:33:05,799 --> 00:33:10,319 any objective truth or any specific one church, the approach 609 00:33:10,359 --> 00:33:13,960 here would be more of a journey or a praxis 610 00:33:14,079 --> 00:33:17,480 to discovering the church. So the church is in discovery, 611 00:33:18,119 --> 00:33:20,759 and they took the high priestly prayer of Christ right 612 00:33:20,799 --> 00:33:23,279 that we be united, as if the church isn't united. 613 00:33:24,039 --> 00:33:25,799 So it's like, yeah, the vist prayer for us to 614 00:33:25,839 --> 00:33:28,599 be one. Yeah, so that means that we were never one, 615 00:33:28,839 --> 00:33:31,680 but in the near distant future we can all have 616 00:33:31,759 --> 00:33:36,400 this new future amorphous unity around the idea that there 617 00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:42,200 is no truth. There is a gradual convergence, right right? 618 00:33:42,279 --> 00:33:44,119 Does that makes it? Yeah? And and they and they 619 00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:47,359 openly talked about that in that chapter, like they say that, yeah, 620 00:33:47,359 --> 00:33:51,200 what we'll use the acumenist movement essentially to control and 621 00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:53,759 steer the church. And then the David Wimhoff book, which 622 00:33:53,799 --> 00:33:56,319 is that like that nine hundred page text, but David 623 00:33:56,359 --> 00:33:59,640 Wimhoff book, it goes into a lot of detail explaining 624 00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:03,799 the uh how this was done specifically in the Romancolic Church. 625 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:06,319 He's a traditional Catholic talking about the figure of John 626 00:34:06,359 --> 00:34:10,639 Courtney Murray uh and other other Jesuits who were approached 627 00:34:10,679 --> 00:34:13,039 by C. D. Jackson and people from the CIA in 628 00:34:13,119 --> 00:34:16,320 terms of what they call the doctrinal warfare program under 629 00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:18,719 the guise of the Cold War. So we got to 630 00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:20,599 fight the Soviets, we got to fight the you know, 631 00:34:20,639 --> 00:34:23,360 the atheists, Soviet Empire, So you need to make an 632 00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:28,480 alliance with us and join the fight of Americanism. And 633 00:34:28,599 --> 00:34:31,239 while we can understand in during the Cold War setting 634 00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:33,599 why they would have fallen for that, I'm not sure 635 00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:36,159 to fault those people because they may have had good motives. 636 00:34:36,679 --> 00:34:40,639 The problem is that that comes at a heavy price. Right. 637 00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:44,480 So the heavy price is that, uh, you now have 638 00:34:44,599 --> 00:34:48,360 to submit to new masters, right right, And we see that, 639 00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:50,639 we see that going on today where the churches are 640 00:34:50,639 --> 00:34:53,280 now really expected to go along with the State Department 641 00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:57,039 and the you know what Uncle Sam says, right, uh, 642 00:34:57,079 --> 00:34:59,880 And that's because it's it's it is the same movement 643 00:35:00,079 --> 00:35:01,920 going back to you know, the founding of the of 644 00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:05,760 the Accumenist movement, and you can read about I think 645 00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:09,480 his name was swamp Swamy Viviacananda. Oh yeah, yeah, he 646 00:35:09,519 --> 00:35:13,519 went and met with Rockefeller Senior, and Rockefeller Senior says, 647 00:35:13,519 --> 00:35:15,960 you know what, this guy's you know, all approaching, all 648 00:35:16,039 --> 00:35:20,760 encompassing synchrodous approach would be a great tool for you know, 649 00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:24,119 steering religion in a certain direction. So they even talked 650 00:35:24,159 --> 00:35:27,440 about that. And so that's the the the turning of 651 00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:30,039 Acumenism as a situation where it's like we're going to 652 00:35:30,119 --> 00:35:35,320 meet together and hash out of disagreements, turns into nobody's right, 653 00:35:36,039 --> 00:35:41,039 we're all wrong, We're all in the process towards achieving church. 654 00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:46,239 Church is a teleological end times thing and not a 655 00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:49,280 historical reality. So it's all premised on the rejection of 656 00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:51,760 a historical church, right, and so. 657 00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:54,239 Speaker 1: Maybe you can die continue to follow that line of 658 00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:56,599 thought because I can imagine some people that are less 659 00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:01,280 well knowledgeable about all this stuff. Well, you know, it's 660 00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:03,559 not a bad idea of trying to get us together 661 00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:07,519 and sort of have a unified identity as Christians. And 662 00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:10,239 I've seen recently that they're the whole idea that I've 663 00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:13,199 seen this rhetoric is like, well, if Islam, Christianity, and 664 00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:16,159 Judaism unite, then they'll be able to fight the degenerate 665 00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:21,440 progressivism or the degenerate leftism. But again, this comes back 666 00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:23,960 to a sort of relativism that underpins it, and it's 667 00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:26,039 just going to lead to everybody being ultimately on the 668 00:36:26,079 --> 00:36:29,800 same team. But can you speak to the perniciousness and 669 00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:35,960 the deliberate attempt to subvert Christianity through this ecumenicism And 670 00:36:36,039 --> 00:36:38,320 it wasn't some oh well, maybe we're just going to 671 00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:42,559 get together. Maybe syncretism is as a higher spiritual idea. No, 672 00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:45,960 this was a pernicious attempt from the get go to 673 00:36:46,159 --> 00:36:50,320 subvert it, to undermine traditional foundations, to lead towards a 674 00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:53,679 sort of secular domination of religion itself. 675 00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:59,840 Speaker 2: Right, So the motivations are not that, you know, the 676 00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:02,920 these powerful families or these people in these NGOs are 677 00:37:03,079 --> 00:37:06,039 themselves religious. Now there may be some of them that are, 678 00:37:06,119 --> 00:37:11,800 but it's more of a very malicious sort of power philosophy, 679 00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:14,519 because everything in geopolitics operates on the basis of power 680 00:37:14,559 --> 00:37:18,280 moves and power plays, and so they see religion as 681 00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:20,719 really a tool or an at has schey of the state. 682 00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:25,480 And we can find that pretty consistently in church history. 683 00:37:25,519 --> 00:37:27,519 It's not it shouldn't be anything new, because if we 684 00:37:27,559 --> 00:37:30,199 think back to the Aryan Crisis in the fourth century, 685 00:37:30,599 --> 00:37:35,360 the Aryan Crisis, you had a situation where the emperors 686 00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:38,239 in some cases were Aryan and they wanted to promote 687 00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:42,559 Arianism because it would actually promote their state co opting 688 00:37:42,599 --> 00:37:46,480 of the church. Right. In the same case of the 689 00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:50,480 Iconoclass crisis, you had certain emperors that were iconoclass emperors 690 00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:53,280 and it was a way for them to use the 691 00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:56,519 church as an arm of their power. Likewise, in the 692 00:37:56,519 --> 00:37:59,159 West we always called the investiture controversy, and that's a 693 00:37:59,199 --> 00:38:01,320 similar situation, and were a lot of kings had this 694 00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:05,159 tendency to appoint the bishops of various important dioceses because 695 00:38:05,679 --> 00:38:07,719 they would just make the church in arm of the state. 696 00:38:09,079 --> 00:38:11,119 So this has always been a problem in the church. 697 00:38:11,159 --> 00:38:13,400 And by the way, the Romancallity Church, the papacy, which 698 00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:15,599 is supposed to be exempt from this, is not exempt 699 00:38:15,639 --> 00:38:17,800 from this by having the pope, because in many cases 700 00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:20,239 the pope has also been a creature of various states 701 00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:23,960 and various kings. You know. The Michael Welton book, for example, 702 00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:26,039 covers that very well. We also see it in the 703 00:38:26,079 --> 00:38:31,280 case of the Frankish papacy when after Charlemagne we begin 704 00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:35,840 to see the papacy adopt not in the days of Charlemagne, 705 00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:37,920 but after the days of Charlemane. We see the papacy 706 00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:42,679 adopting the phillioqui clause as a geopolitical strategy for so 707 00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:45,119 that Charlemagne can say, oh, you see, the real churches 708 00:38:45,119 --> 00:38:46,519 are the ones that are in union with me, that 709 00:38:46,559 --> 00:38:48,920 have the Phillioqui in the Creek, right, and that's an 710 00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:51,239 actual you can read about even at the time. Saint 711 00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:55,519 Potius in his letters talks about how the Franks had 712 00:38:55,519 --> 00:38:58,760 a geopolitical motive in doing that. Wow, because it would 713 00:38:59,159 --> 00:39:02,760 be part in part with jurisdictions, makes total sense. The 714 00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:05,559 Frank's control, you see, total So that's why it was 715 00:39:05,559 --> 00:39:09,480 important to Charlemagne to have the Phillyoquay clause in the 716 00:39:09,519 --> 00:39:13,920 Creed in those areas where he expanded. So and St. 717 00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:19,760 Fotius and his letters complains that the Carolinian missionaries were 718 00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:24,400 encroaching on Bulgarian Orthodox territories where they didn't have the Creed, 719 00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:27,800 so they were moving into jurisdictions that were Orthodox. Right. 720 00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:32,440 So those are examples in the history of church where 721 00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:34,559 we see that. Yeah, I mean, this has kind of 722 00:39:34,599 --> 00:39:37,440 been a long time struggle, right, and everybody's probably familiar 723 00:39:37,519 --> 00:39:39,800 with the story of the you know, the Russian Church 724 00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:42,599 and the KGB bishops, right, we've all heard this surely 725 00:39:42,599 --> 00:39:45,320 from the Old War. I just covered a couple of 726 00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:50,199 texts from a neocon actually, you know, going really deep 727 00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:56,360 into the history of the the KGB's espionage activities in 728 00:39:56,440 --> 00:39:59,880 terms of the Vatican, right, and you know how none 729 00:39:59,880 --> 00:40:04,920 of that was really does it come to as a surprise, 730 00:40:05,079 --> 00:40:06,840 right we all kind of Oh, yeah, of course they were, 731 00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:08,960 you know, putting spies in the Vatican. Of course there 732 00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:11,159 were KGB bishops not just in the Russian Church but 733 00:40:11,199 --> 00:40:14,400 also in the Vatican. In Poland, for example, the KGB 734 00:40:14,519 --> 00:40:17,920 had recruited different bishops during the Cold War. So so again, 735 00:40:18,079 --> 00:40:20,719 these are not really things that should surprise us, because 736 00:40:21,079 --> 00:40:23,639 it's all throughout church history, if we know our church history, 737 00:40:24,079 --> 00:40:27,440 and it's unfortunate, but it's no different in our day 738 00:40:27,559 --> 00:40:31,440 that the Church is under a new kind of assault, 739 00:40:31,639 --> 00:40:34,840 which is not a well I guess in some places 740 00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:37,880 it's an over you know, physical assault from the state. 741 00:40:38,119 --> 00:40:40,800 You know, people can get martyred or beat up or whatever. 742 00:40:41,679 --> 00:40:44,039 You know, we have the history of the Muslim persecutions 743 00:40:44,039 --> 00:40:45,519 of the Church, this kind of stuff, But in our 744 00:40:45,599 --> 00:40:48,639 day it's more of an ideological subversion through the heresy 745 00:40:48,639 --> 00:40:51,239 of the humanism, which is just postulating that there's not 746 00:40:52,079 --> 00:40:55,239 a single visible historical church but they we're all in 747 00:40:55,239 --> 00:40:58,559 the process. And the state power I'm saying, has seen 748 00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:01,000 and not just the state, but also the money power 749 00:41:01,039 --> 00:41:05,280 behind the state these these very wealthy families and oligarchs 750 00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:07,400 and so forth. They have seen it as an opportunity 751 00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:10,360 to co op the church and turn it into an 752 00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:14,639 Americanist in geo institution. Right, Well, that's the motivations for them, 753 00:41:15,239 --> 00:41:18,000 and it's very well documented. It's surprising to me that 754 00:41:18,079 --> 00:41:19,480 a lot of people, I think a lot of people 755 00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:22,119 don't study geopolitics. They don't they don't know about this. 756 00:41:22,559 --> 00:41:24,360 They might be studying theology, but they don't know this 757 00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:27,400 other domain. But in this other domain, there's quite a 758 00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:31,679 few Catholic writers that that you know, have done a 759 00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:34,639 great service I think in putting out so many excellent, 760 00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:38,280 scholarly documented I'm not talking about French conspiracy so I'm 761 00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:40,679 talking about intelligence analysts. I'm talking about people who are 762 00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:45,440 you know, FBI consultants. I'm talking about lawyers like David Wimhoff, right. 763 00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:48,880 I mean, these are famous in the sense of academically 764 00:41:49,039 --> 00:41:53,239 famous and established lecturers and professors and lawyers who are 765 00:41:53,239 --> 00:41:55,679 putting out these treatises saying hey, wait a minute, what 766 00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:58,800 about this geopolitical angle at Vatican Two that had a 767 00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:02,320 big influence on, you know, pushing Americanism in the Roman 768 00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:05,239 Catholic Church and so forth, And you know, I found 769 00:42:05,239 --> 00:42:07,480 that to be a big piece of the puzzle that 770 00:42:07,519 --> 00:42:09,440 I wasn't aware of when I was a twenty year old, 771 00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:11,960 you know, Roman Catholic guy twenty one or whatever just 772 00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:14,760 converted to Roman Catholicism and I was hardcore trad and 773 00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:18,000 I'm trying to figure out what's going on. And I realized, well, 774 00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:20,599 it's not all about theology. There's also these other power 775 00:42:20,639 --> 00:42:23,840 plays and these you know, state actors. And for people 776 00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:27,639 that think that's a conspiracy theory, do you not know 777 00:42:27,679 --> 00:42:30,199 about the Cold War? I mean, don't you think that 778 00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:34,000 the Soviet state installed a whole bunch of bishops? And 779 00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:36,400 for those that don't know, I did a whole lecture 780 00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:39,440 with Bishop Jonah Metropultan Jonah, I think last year. We 781 00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:41,639 did a whole interview because he knows a lot about 782 00:42:41,639 --> 00:42:44,360 the history of the Russian Church, and we went really 783 00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:47,719 deep into the nuances of the Cold War. Because a 784 00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:49,119 lot of people who don't know about this, they have 785 00:42:49,159 --> 00:42:51,519 a tendency to get really either or oh, everybody in 786 00:42:51,519 --> 00:42:55,039 the Russian Church was a KGB. It's not like that. 787 00:42:55,480 --> 00:42:58,320 In fact, what the KGB did was in the Russian Church, 788 00:42:58,320 --> 00:43:02,639 they actually had a scale, a gradation scale of like, 789 00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:05,719 these are the bishops that are completely compromised and ones 790 00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:09,079 that we installed. These are the bishops that are maybe 791 00:43:09,119 --> 00:43:12,559 on our side and maybe compromisable, but maybe not. These 792 00:43:12,559 --> 00:43:15,199 are the ones that are not compromisable in our enemies. 793 00:43:15,199 --> 00:43:18,639 And so they had like a scale among the jurisdictions 794 00:43:18,679 --> 00:43:20,719 of the of the Russian Church. And so this idea 795 00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:23,920 of like collective guilt of everybody in the Russian Church 796 00:43:24,039 --> 00:43:26,199 was KGB. A lot of trads have this attitude. Roman 797 00:43:26,239 --> 00:43:29,920 Catholics are like and even to this day, trad Roman 798 00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:31,920 Catholics are like, you know, the KGB hasn't been around 799 00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:37,760 in thirty years, and you know, traditional Catholics are like stuff. 800 00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:41,000 It's like, there is no KGB. I've never been to Russia, right, 801 00:43:41,199 --> 00:43:43,679 I don't have any connection to Putin or any of 802 00:43:43,719 --> 00:43:46,559 these people other than one interview one time with an 803 00:43:46,599 --> 00:43:50,639 intellectual from Russia. That's it. That's that's the But I 804 00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:53,360 do have a love and interest in history, right, So, 805 00:43:54,599 --> 00:43:57,199 and history is very clear about you know, the reality 806 00:43:57,239 --> 00:44:01,719 of power players wanting to use religion