WEBVTT 1 00:00:24.800 --> 00:00:29.079 Hey, everybody looks like Catherine's he already. Katherine, she just 2 00:00:29.120 --> 00:00:33.320 got some mail from us today. She was our winner 3 00:00:33.359 --> 00:00:35.679 that got the notebook that we bought in the UK, 4 00:00:35.840 --> 00:00:39.479 the Crime UK notebook, So she was our monthly school 5 00:00:40.079 --> 00:00:41.880 No September when we were over there. 6 00:00:41.960 --> 00:00:44.439 So I just sent it yesterday. 7 00:00:44.920 --> 00:00:47.439 She's so close that she just got it today. 8 00:00:47.719 --> 00:00:48.840 But we're here, We're back. 9 00:00:49.640 --> 00:00:57.159 My bangs and I are back, are here making their appearance. Scott, 10 00:00:57.200 --> 00:00:58.799 when are you gonna do something different with your. 11 00:00:58.719 --> 00:01:03.320 Hair or to keep it from receiving any furtheratures of 12 00:01:03.359 --> 00:01:04.239 us from internship? 13 00:01:04.560 --> 00:01:07.560 You gotta go tea. We need to put that somewhere. 14 00:01:07.920 --> 00:01:09.920 Oh I did, Yeah, I have just the go tee 15 00:01:10.000 --> 00:01:13.040 no mustache. When that was and then the Sister Wive 16 00:01:13.120 --> 00:01:14.680 show started and I was like, no. 17 00:01:14.920 --> 00:01:18.280 Time for you associate me with them. 18 00:01:18.319 --> 00:01:19.560 Not gonna associate with that guy. 19 00:01:19.640 --> 00:01:20.159 So funny. 20 00:01:20.799 --> 00:01:22.959 Yeah, it's been a while since we've been here on 21 00:01:23.000 --> 00:01:25.079 a live stream. Thank you guys for bearing with us. 22 00:01:25.519 --> 00:01:27.439 For sure we've missed it. This is going to be 23 00:01:27.560 --> 00:01:29.239 a great show to come back with too. 24 00:01:29.439 --> 00:01:33.120 Yeah, our last behind the Couch was about three months ago. 25 00:01:33.400 --> 00:01:35.959 But remember, if you're part of Patreon, we jump on 26 00:01:35.959 --> 00:01:39.480 into a live stream segment called shrink Wrap whenever the 27 00:01:39.519 --> 00:01:42.400 inspiration hits us and whenever we can find time to 28 00:01:42.439 --> 00:01:46.159 do it. And because we had our very densely scheduled 29 00:01:46.200 --> 00:01:49.359 summer finally over with, we will be doing more of 30 00:01:49.439 --> 00:01:51.599 them and they're very enjoyable for us because we don't 31 00:01:51.640 --> 00:01:53.920 really have to do any planning at all. It's basically 32 00:01:53.959 --> 00:01:56.359 plug and play, jump on and start talking, and that's 33 00:01:56.719 --> 00:01:59.599 such a joy for us. And you also get an 34 00:01:59.599 --> 00:02:02.920 audio version of that in your Behind the Couch podcast feed. 35 00:02:03.000 --> 00:02:05.879 So if you want more content from us, please consider 36 00:02:06.000 --> 00:02:10.840 joining our wonderful Patreon family. So our newest patrons since 37 00:02:10.919 --> 00:02:14.479 August we have at the associate level Catherine H, Leanna Jay, 38 00:02:14.919 --> 00:02:19.599 Rosemary Don S, Teresa H, Michelle Kay, Lisa S, and 39 00:02:19.800 --> 00:02:24.280 ms BA Kay and welcome to the doctoral level Susan M. 40 00:02:24.759 --> 00:02:27.479 And just a reminder, if you join at the doctorate level, 41 00:02:27.599 --> 00:02:30.319 you are entered into a merch giveaway every month, and 42 00:02:30.400 --> 00:02:34.039 our last three winners were in June. 43 00:02:34.080 --> 00:02:34.759 We had Laura P. 44 00:02:35.120 --> 00:02:39.439 In July, Mattie W. In August, Alex S. And then 45 00:02:39.639 --> 00:02:42.599 as we just mentioned, September was Catherine H. 46 00:02:42.639 --> 00:02:43.719 And I just pulled a name. 47 00:02:43.639 --> 00:02:47.560 For October today, So our winner is Ashley A. 48 00:02:48.360 --> 00:02:49.759 So Ashley, we will be in. 49 00:02:49.759 --> 00:02:52.360 Touch just regarding your price and what we're going to 50 00:02:52.400 --> 00:02:53.800 send you and just make sure you got the right 51 00:02:53.840 --> 00:02:57.919 address on Patreon and all of that good stuff. So 52 00:02:57.960 --> 00:03:00.280 the perks are there, you guys, and we are. We're 53 00:03:00.319 --> 00:03:03.800 so incredibly grateful for each and every one of you, 54 00:03:03.879 --> 00:03:07.719 no matter what level you join at, because it literally 55 00:03:07.840 --> 00:03:10.400 keeps us running these days, which is you know, we 56 00:03:10.439 --> 00:03:12.919 try to get more content to you folks as we 57 00:03:13.000 --> 00:03:13.719 have time. 58 00:03:13.520 --> 00:03:15.599 So thank you, thank you, And as most of y'all 59 00:03:15.639 --> 00:03:18.599 already know because you've been around for a while, we rarely, 60 00:03:18.719 --> 00:03:22.360 if ever do interviews on our podcast because we love 61 00:03:22.400 --> 00:03:26.360 the opportunity to have a live forum with our guests 62 00:03:26.400 --> 00:03:31.159 who kindly agree to appear on our show. This month 63 00:03:31.319 --> 00:03:34.680 is no exception, as we have yet another fantastic guest, 64 00:03:35.080 --> 00:03:39.639 Doctor Roggy gergis an expert on psychosis and violence and 65 00:03:39.680 --> 00:03:44.039 mental illness just literally an academic and researcher after our hearts, 66 00:03:44.080 --> 00:03:47.319 because this guy is the real deal. We are so 67 00:03:47.400 --> 00:03:50.400 happy to have you. Thank you so much, Doctor gergis 68 00:03:50.639 --> 00:03:54.560 Roggy for blessing us with your parents. No, no, exaggeration. 69 00:03:54.719 --> 00:03:55.400 We appreciate it. 70 00:03:55.439 --> 00:03:57.240 Thank you for having me. I'm happy to be with you. 71 00:03:57.360 --> 00:04:00.520 Yes, So I'm going to do a little introduction. So 72 00:04:00.560 --> 00:04:02.759 bear with us for a moment, then we will absolutely 73 00:04:02.840 --> 00:04:03.479 jump into it. 74 00:04:03.520 --> 00:04:03.599 So. 75 00:04:03.639 --> 00:04:06.400 Doctor Gergis is a professor of clinical psychiatry at the 76 00:04:06.439 --> 00:04:11.560 Columbia University Department of Psychiatry and New York State Psychiatric Institute. 77 00:04:11.840 --> 00:04:15.719 His research often employs advanced imaging techniques such as MRI 78 00:04:16.519 --> 00:04:21.319 and PET scans alongside clinical trials to explore the complexities 79 00:04:21.360 --> 00:04:25.360 of psychosis and violence and mental illness, which is something 80 00:04:25.439 --> 00:04:30.480 our audience can't get enough about. He has received substantial 81 00:04:30.519 --> 00:04:34.319 grant funding as a principal investigator from organizations including the 82 00:04:34.399 --> 00:04:39.199 National Institute of Mental Health, the Brain and Behavior Research Foundation, 83 00:04:39.399 --> 00:04:41.680 and the Stanley Medical Research Institute. 84 00:04:41.720 --> 00:04:44.560 So doctor Gergis is an accomplished author. He's published over 85 00:04:44.600 --> 00:04:48.040 a one hundred peer reviewed scientific papers and numerous books 86 00:04:48.079 --> 00:04:51.879 on severe mental illness, including his recent exploration of the 87 00:04:51.879 --> 00:04:57.120 intersection between religion and psychiatry entitled on Satan Demons and Psychiatry, 88 00:04:57.480 --> 00:05:00.160 Exploring mental illness in the Bible as a practice in 89 00:05:00.240 --> 00:05:03.279 Christian Doctor Gergis brings a unique perspective to his work 90 00:05:03.600 --> 00:05:07.160 merging clinical rigor with a deep understanding of historical and 91 00:05:07.199 --> 00:05:11.000 religious influences on mental health, and over the past four years, 92 00:05:11.279 --> 00:05:13.600 he's worked extensively with colleagues to construct one of the 93 00:05:13.680 --> 00:05:19.680 most comprehensive mass murder repositories in existence, named the Columbia 94 00:05:19.839 --> 00:05:23.199 Mass Murder Database. First of all, I'm not sure how 95 00:05:23.240 --> 00:05:24.879 we're even going to get past the tip of the 96 00:05:24.879 --> 00:05:28.639 iceberg and everything that we and our audience would want 97 00:05:28.680 --> 00:05:33.040 to know about you, But welcome, doctor Roggy. Before we 98 00:05:33.120 --> 00:05:36.839 dive into the Columbia mass Murder Database, can you tell 99 00:05:36.920 --> 00:05:39.879 us just a little bit about your personal background and 100 00:05:39.959 --> 00:05:43.079 what led you to this particular career. Our audience always 101 00:05:43.079 --> 00:05:44.639 loves to hear about people's journeys. 102 00:05:44.920 --> 00:05:47.439 Well, thank you again, doctor Scott and doctor Shiloh for 103 00:05:47.519 --> 00:05:50.720 having me. I went to medical school knowing nothing about medicine, 104 00:05:50.720 --> 00:05:53.759 knowing in my family had been a medical doctor. I 105 00:05:53.800 --> 00:05:57.160 found psychiatry through a summer research internship that I did, 106 00:05:57.240 --> 00:05:59.759 and I knew right away that I wanted to focus 107 00:05:59.800 --> 00:06:04.560 on schizophrenia. So fast forward to finishing residency at Columbia 108 00:06:04.680 --> 00:06:07.959 and then fellowship, I pursued research in my area of 109 00:06:08.000 --> 00:06:12.319 research is schizophrenia, like you mentioned, primarily dealing with path 110 00:06:12.360 --> 00:06:15.959 of physiology and development of medications and those sorts of things. 111 00:06:16.160 --> 00:06:20.000 Around twenty nineteen, a colleague of mine, doctor Gary Ricato, 112 00:06:20.040 --> 00:06:23.879 and I really wanted to as definitively as possible answer 113 00:06:23.920 --> 00:06:29.279 the question of how mental illness and mass shootings are related. 114 00:06:29.600 --> 00:06:32.600 So we put together this database and we tried to 115 00:06:32.600 --> 00:06:37.279 bring as much of an evidence based, rigorous research design 116 00:06:37.639 --> 00:06:38.439 to this question. 117 00:06:38.519 --> 00:06:40.120 Thank you so much for sharing about that. 118 00:06:40.439 --> 00:06:42.879 You know, I think there are those of us in 119 00:06:43.560 --> 00:06:48.439 the mental health field where psychotic disorders are very gravitating 120 00:06:48.680 --> 00:06:51.600 towards us and or us towards it, and then there 121 00:06:51.680 --> 00:06:54.399 are those of us that are like, Nope, absolutely not 122 00:06:54.480 --> 00:06:56.879 what I wanted to do, And. 123 00:06:57.240 --> 00:07:01.040 That's exactly my experienced percent. And most people, of course 124 00:07:01.120 --> 00:07:03.879 run the side of not wanting to be exposed. And 125 00:07:03.920 --> 00:07:06.160 I'm talking about psychiatrists in that college just not wanting 126 00:07:06.160 --> 00:07:08.639 to be exposed to psychoticsors in any way. 127 00:07:08.800 --> 00:07:09.800 Yeah, I agree. 128 00:07:09.879 --> 00:07:13.600 I mean I was also in either practicum or internship, 129 00:07:13.800 --> 00:07:17.360 and you know, looking in areas around southern California and 130 00:07:17.680 --> 00:07:20.920 where you might continue to do postdoc work. One of 131 00:07:20.920 --> 00:07:22.879 the big places that a lot of forensic psychologists were 132 00:07:22.879 --> 00:07:27.519 going was Patent State Hospital, and I saw a documentary 133 00:07:27.800 --> 00:07:32.120 on Patent State Hospital and said, you cannot pay me 134 00:07:32.240 --> 00:07:35.319 enough money to go there yet. Then I talk about well, 135 00:07:35.360 --> 00:07:37.879 I worked with hiers sex offenders for over a decade, 136 00:07:37.879 --> 00:07:40.000 and people are like, what, how could you you know? 137 00:07:40.040 --> 00:07:42.040 It's just again, Scott, and I say all the time 138 00:07:42.040 --> 00:07:45.199 that there's just someone cut from a cloth to do 139 00:07:45.319 --> 00:07:49.519 absolutely every type of work under the mental health umbrella. 140 00:07:49.600 --> 00:07:53.079 So thank you for what you do, because it's really 141 00:07:53.079 --> 00:07:55.639 important work and someone has to get in there and 142 00:07:55.680 --> 00:07:59.319 start drilling down on some of these things. So please, 143 00:07:59.399 --> 00:08:01.399 I mean, can you tell us a little bit more 144 00:08:01.480 --> 00:08:05.360 about the Columbia mass murder database, because I know that's 145 00:08:05.600 --> 00:08:10.000 not just inclusive of school shootings but of so much 146 00:08:10.040 --> 00:08:10.680 more as well. 147 00:08:10.759 --> 00:08:11.680 That's exactly right. 148 00:08:11.720 --> 00:08:14.560 So, as I mentioned, I'm totally a researcher, That's all 149 00:08:14.560 --> 00:08:14.839 I do. 150 00:08:15.199 --> 00:08:15.480 I do. 151 00:08:15.560 --> 00:08:19.279 I'm a clinical researcher, one hundred percent academic. So we 152 00:08:19.519 --> 00:08:22.480 get doctor Gary Riccatto and I who's a psychologist who 153 00:08:22.480 --> 00:08:27.839 focuses on forensic issues, really wanted to apply rigorous kind 154 00:08:27.879 --> 00:08:33.000 of research methodologies and evidence based designs to this question. 155 00:08:33.159 --> 00:08:35.679 To the field of mass shootings in mass murder research, 156 00:08:36.240 --> 00:08:40.840 but in particularly this question of the relationship between mental illness, 157 00:08:40.919 --> 00:08:43.679 especially psychotic disorders, but mental illness in general and mass 158 00:08:43.679 --> 00:08:46.639 shootings and mass murder. We wanted to include as many 159 00:08:46.679 --> 00:08:49.200 as we could so increase the sample size, and we 160 00:08:49.240 --> 00:08:50.799 wanted to have comparison groups. 161 00:08:50.799 --> 00:08:51.399 That's critical. 162 00:08:51.679 --> 00:08:53.919 As you all know, and I'm sure many of your 163 00:08:54.279 --> 00:08:59.440 listeners understand, it's important to have descriptive data like percentages in. 164 00:08:59.480 --> 00:09:01.320 A group, et cetera. Those sorts of things. 165 00:09:01.320 --> 00:09:04.080 Those are all very important, but it's also important to 166 00:09:04.720 --> 00:09:09.200 have comparison groups that allows us to limit bias, understand 167 00:09:09.399 --> 00:09:13.720 confounding like confounding variables, otheriables that affect whatever you're looking at, 168 00:09:13.879 --> 00:09:18.120 especially since in virtually all research, including this research, there's 169 00:09:18.159 --> 00:09:21.279 no way to capture a whole population. If you were 170 00:09:21.279 --> 00:09:24.440 able to capture a whole population, you wouldn't necessarily need 171 00:09:25.360 --> 00:09:28.519 need these sourts of comparison groups either way, so we 172 00:09:28.559 --> 00:09:31.480 also wanted to include comparison group That's why we decided 173 00:09:31.519 --> 00:09:35.480 to include mass murders perpetrated with other methods in addition 174 00:09:35.559 --> 00:09:37.799 to mass shootings, which obviously mass. 175 00:09:37.600 --> 00:09:39.480 Murders perpetrated firearms. 176 00:09:39.559 --> 00:09:43.480 We figured that was probably the most comparable, least biased, 177 00:09:43.600 --> 00:09:47.320 or confounded comparison group. So basically we included all types 178 00:09:47.360 --> 00:09:50.919 of mass murders. We decided also to include mass murders 179 00:09:51.440 --> 00:09:54.720 perpetrated all over the world to examine, for example, differences 180 00:09:54.720 --> 00:09:59.159 between mass murders and mass shootings perpetrated in the States versus. 181 00:09:58.799 --> 00:09:59.679 Elsewhere in the world. 182 00:10:00.120 --> 00:10:02.879 Very very important questions about that sort of thing, And 183 00:10:02.919 --> 00:10:05.799 we decided to go back to nineteen hundred two understand 184 00:10:05.919 --> 00:10:08.720 how these changed over time again to be able to 185 00:10:08.759 --> 00:10:12.679 control for vearials that might be different between you know, 186 00:10:12.759 --> 00:10:15.759 modern mass shootings and modern mass murder and mass murder 187 00:10:15.759 --> 00:10:19.440 perpetrated in for example, the early twentieth century. So we 188 00:10:19.559 --> 00:10:22.399 have about twenty two hundred mass murders in our database, 189 00:10:22.639 --> 00:10:25.960 about sixteen hundred or seventeen one hundred of them are 190 00:10:26.000 --> 00:10:29.159 mass shootings. Mass shootings definitely are more common than other 191 00:10:29.200 --> 00:10:32.120 types of mass murder, primarily because of the numbers of 192 00:10:32.120 --> 00:10:34.080 mass shootings in the United States. 193 00:10:34.120 --> 00:10:36.639 Sure, can you talk a little bit about who or 194 00:10:36.639 --> 00:10:38.919 what you did not include what you felt like you 195 00:10:38.960 --> 00:10:40.720 wanted to separate out. 196 00:10:40.960 --> 00:10:41.879 That's very important. 197 00:10:41.919 --> 00:10:45.240 So we decided to focus on what we call and 198 00:10:45.279 --> 00:10:49.759 what other people call personal cause mass shootings. These are 199 00:10:49.840 --> 00:10:53.519 mass shootings and mass murders that have a personal motivation. 200 00:10:54.519 --> 00:10:58.360 So this does not include mass murder perpetrated in the 201 00:10:58.399 --> 00:11:03.960 context of war, date sponsored, a group sponsored terrorism, gang violence, 202 00:11:04.440 --> 00:11:09.399 or other types of group sponsored or affiliated mass murders. 203 00:11:09.440 --> 00:11:12.240 So we wanted to focus on personal cause mass murder. 204 00:11:12.360 --> 00:11:14.799 And if you don't mind just talking a little bit, 205 00:11:14.840 --> 00:11:18.720 I mean, we've certainly discussed this in some episodes, but 206 00:11:19.240 --> 00:11:24.679 what seems to be so important about that personal grievance 207 00:11:25.039 --> 00:11:28.399 in terms of these types of mass murders, again not 208 00:11:28.600 --> 00:11:31.559 just talking about shootings, and maybe even with that you 209 00:11:31.559 --> 00:11:35.120 can talk about aside from school shootings or mass shootings, 210 00:11:35.360 --> 00:11:37.840 what were maybe a couple of other types of scenarios 211 00:11:37.840 --> 00:11:38.519 that were included. 212 00:11:38.679 --> 00:11:40.200 Sure, well, that's fundamental. 213 00:11:40.440 --> 00:11:43.159 It goes to motivation, and I mean, this is exactly 214 00:11:43.759 --> 00:11:46.639 what we all focus on. Motivation and understanding basically why 215 00:11:47.159 --> 00:11:50.120 someone would perpetrate a mass shooting, why someone would perpetrate 216 00:11:50.240 --> 00:11:53.120 a mass stabbing, why they would use a firem So 217 00:11:53.159 --> 00:11:55.200 the question, so one, the main question is why do 218 00:11:55.240 --> 00:11:58.919 people use firearms? For example, why do they not use knives? 219 00:11:58.960 --> 00:12:00.759 Why do they not use autom mobiles. Are why do 220 00:12:00.799 --> 00:12:03.679 they use automobiles when they use automobiles. There actually have 221 00:12:03.799 --> 00:12:07.879 been a number of mass murders personal cause mass murders 222 00:12:08.000 --> 00:12:11.720 perpetrated with planes. United Airlines Flight I think six six, 223 00:12:11.840 --> 00:12:15.879 twenty nine, Continental Airlines Flight eleven, Egypt Air nine ninety, 224 00:12:16.320 --> 00:12:19.080 the German Wings, the German Wings disaster. 225 00:12:19.279 --> 00:12:19.879 Many of these. 226 00:12:20.120 --> 00:12:26.000 We understand state sponsored, war affiliated, group sponsored gang affiliated 227 00:12:26.320 --> 00:12:27.960 mass violence very well. 228 00:12:28.399 --> 00:12:29.919 The motives are clearer. 229 00:12:30.039 --> 00:12:32.600 It's the personal cause mass murder that we know less 230 00:12:32.639 --> 00:12:35.159 about we need to understand, and it is exactly those 231 00:12:35.200 --> 00:12:37.919 motivations that are important to us. So to take us 232 00:12:37.960 --> 00:12:41.039 that back to the initial question we wanted to answer, 233 00:12:41.279 --> 00:12:44.080 which was what is the relationship between mental illness and 234 00:12:44.480 --> 00:12:45.360 in mass shootings? 235 00:12:45.399 --> 00:12:46.120 In particular? 236 00:12:47.080 --> 00:12:51.840 This is fundamental and this covers so many questions that 237 00:12:51.840 --> 00:12:55.720 we probably want to try to answer and speak to today. 238 00:12:55.919 --> 00:13:00.480 But the top line conclusion or result, and this is 239 00:13:00.480 --> 00:13:03.279 based on data and these are all published, is that 240 00:13:03.600 --> 00:13:07.360 ment to illness is overrepresented among mass shooters, and it's 241 00:13:07.559 --> 00:13:12.279 primarily psychotic illness. And by overrepresented we mean overrepresented compared 242 00:13:12.279 --> 00:13:15.919 to the background prevalence, and that number is five percent. 243 00:13:16.279 --> 00:13:18.840 So about say one to two percent of the population, 244 00:13:18.919 --> 00:13:21.039 for example, in the United States has a psychotic disorder. 245 00:13:21.519 --> 00:13:26.519 Five percent of mass shootings are attributable to or caused 246 00:13:26.559 --> 00:13:29.559 by a psychotic disorder, a mental illness. 247 00:13:29.840 --> 00:13:30.240 That's it. 248 00:13:30.480 --> 00:13:34.240 So ninety five percent of mass shootings are not caused 249 00:13:34.240 --> 00:13:37.080 by mental illness. They're not associated with mental illness in 250 00:13:37.080 --> 00:13:40.480 any way, and no other ment to illness is a 251 00:13:40.600 --> 00:13:45.440 major causative factor in mass shooting. That's the top line 252 00:13:45.639 --> 00:13:48.879 kind of result or conclusion. We can certainly go more 253 00:13:48.919 --> 00:13:51.360 into the data to explain how we came to that, 254 00:13:51.440 --> 00:13:53.919 because we came at that conclusion in many different ways. 255 00:13:53.919 --> 00:13:56.519 So the data are actually and the results and analysis 256 00:13:56.559 --> 00:13:57.879 are all very consistent. 257 00:13:58.200 --> 00:13:59.799 But that's the top line kind of. 258 00:14:00.639 --> 00:14:03.600 Well, I think off the bat, it is so important 259 00:14:03.639 --> 00:14:06.480 to just have a study done like this to set 260 00:14:06.519 --> 00:14:09.759 the baseline and when you said, with using some comparison groups, 261 00:14:10.200 --> 00:14:13.759 so we can have it to then dive into some 262 00:14:13.840 --> 00:14:17.039 of these other areas to ask why or isn't that 263 00:14:17.080 --> 00:14:20.320 interesting or just build on it in the future. And 264 00:14:20.399 --> 00:14:22.840 I know from what you just said in terms of 265 00:14:22.879 --> 00:14:27.320 talking about that five percent, people watching this are probably going, Okay, 266 00:14:27.360 --> 00:14:31.759 wait what, because you know, do we focus on the guns, 267 00:14:31.840 --> 00:14:33.639 or do we focus on mental illness, or do we 268 00:14:33.639 --> 00:14:37.919 focus on something else. However, before we get into those 269 00:14:38.519 --> 00:14:42.440 questions and drill down a little bit more, can you 270 00:14:42.519 --> 00:14:45.399 just tell us a bit about what the research showed 271 00:14:45.559 --> 00:14:49.879 in terms of what changed in the nineteen seventies, because 272 00:14:49.919 --> 00:14:54.039 certainly there was significant difference after some relative stability when 273 00:14:54.080 --> 00:14:55.039 it came to mass murder. 274 00:14:55.200 --> 00:14:58.159 Well, that's the twenty five thousand dollars question or million 275 00:14:58.200 --> 00:15:01.360 dollar question or whatever. We we can speculate, I mean, 276 00:15:01.399 --> 00:15:04.879 we can speculate with a fair amount of certainty. 277 00:15:05.120 --> 00:15:06.279 I think what you're getting. 278 00:15:06.039 --> 00:15:10.960 At is that the prevalence per capita, so accounting for 279 00:15:11.039 --> 00:15:14.679 population growth and population in general, of mass shootings and 280 00:15:14.720 --> 00:15:18.159 all types of mass murder was just very stable before 281 00:15:18.240 --> 00:15:20.519 nineteen seventy, just very stable. 282 00:15:20.559 --> 00:15:22.320 It just did not change. It was incredible. 283 00:15:22.399 --> 00:15:25.720 And then starting on nineteen seventy nineteen eighty, around around 284 00:15:25.720 --> 00:15:30.279 that time, the rate has been increasing fourfold, fourfold things 285 00:15:30.320 --> 00:15:33.159 twofold for the other types of mass murder. So the 286 00:15:33.240 --> 00:15:36.639 question is why is it's the case. So first to 287 00:15:36.720 --> 00:15:39.960 explain how ment to illness is affected or the association 288 00:15:40.000 --> 00:15:42.799 between ment illness and mass shootings is affected, what we 289 00:15:42.840 --> 00:15:45.960 have published and what is the case, is that the 290 00:15:46.039 --> 00:15:50.840 percentage or prevalence of mental illness among mass shooters and 291 00:15:50.960 --> 00:15:53.799 actually among all types of mass murders, but among my shooters, 292 00:15:53.879 --> 00:15:58.000 has over the same time period actually decreased. So this 293 00:15:58.120 --> 00:16:02.080 is just kind of more evidence suggesting that the problem 294 00:16:02.159 --> 00:16:05.279 is not meant to illness and especially psychotic disorders. 295 00:16:05.399 --> 00:16:06.240 It is something else. 296 00:16:06.600 --> 00:16:09.000 So it's not meant to illness because people might think 297 00:16:09.039 --> 00:16:12.679 it had to do with deinstitutionalization and so forth, it's 298 00:16:12.679 --> 00:16:14.279 actually the opposite. 299 00:16:14.039 --> 00:16:15.159 The proportion of. 300 00:16:15.159 --> 00:16:17.840 Mass shooters and other types of mass murders mental illness 301 00:16:18.039 --> 00:16:20.080 has gone down since that time, So what else is 302 00:16:20.120 --> 00:16:23.679 going on? There are a number of potential causes of 303 00:16:23.759 --> 00:16:26.679 mass shootings and mass murder, and we would need to 304 00:16:26.759 --> 00:16:30.360 understand what has One among those is different between the 305 00:16:30.399 --> 00:16:33.759 early parts of the twentieth century and the later parts 306 00:16:33.759 --> 00:16:36.440 of the twentieth century. And now one of those is 307 00:16:36.480 --> 00:16:39.240 certainly gun available if we're talking about mass shootings, especially 308 00:16:39.480 --> 00:16:43.799 gun availability. There's no doubt there are many other causes, 309 00:16:43.879 --> 00:16:46.399 and certainly if we look at the causes of mass 310 00:16:46.399 --> 00:16:49.399 shootings as a pie chart, for example, mental illness again 311 00:16:49.679 --> 00:16:53.039 accounts for about five percent of that, and then firearm 312 00:16:53.120 --> 00:16:57.240 access and availability and production accounts for a much larger 313 00:16:57.279 --> 00:16:58.639 part of the pie. And then there are other pieces 314 00:16:58.679 --> 00:17:02.639 of the pie also, But one factor is gun availability, 315 00:17:02.840 --> 00:17:05.559 and this is very important. And again there are other factors, 316 00:17:05.839 --> 00:17:08.240 but the data are very clear, not just related to 317 00:17:08.279 --> 00:17:11.200 mass shootings, but related to all types of gun violence. 318 00:17:11.839 --> 00:17:18.000 There is a very strong correlation between gun production and 319 00:17:18.319 --> 00:17:22.799 gun violence. It's very strong. It's impossible to ignore. That's 320 00:17:22.880 --> 00:17:27.440 number one. Number two, there is an extremely strong relationship 321 00:17:27.799 --> 00:17:31.319 between and this is an inverse relationship between the strength 322 00:17:31.359 --> 00:17:34.960 of firearm laws and mass shootings. And again this is 323 00:17:35.000 --> 00:17:37.559 per capita. Of course, this is all considering populations and 324 00:17:37.599 --> 00:17:40.440 population differences and growth and those sorts of things. Number 325 00:17:40.559 --> 00:17:47.359 three is that the prevalence or occurrence of suicide among 326 00:17:47.440 --> 00:17:52.599 mass shootings has also increased very substantially since that time. 327 00:17:52.799 --> 00:17:55.480 Now this is important because at least fifty percent are 328 00:17:55.559 --> 00:17:59.440 especially now now it's more than fifty percent of mass 329 00:17:59.559 --> 00:18:02.359 shooter especially also to some degree the other types of 330 00:18:02.359 --> 00:18:05.880 mass murders. Mass shooters in particular don't just die at 331 00:18:05.920 --> 00:18:09.000 the time of the event, but actually take their own 332 00:18:09.079 --> 00:18:12.480 life at the time of the event. Either themselves or 333 00:18:12.920 --> 00:18:17.039 through the so called suicide by cop method. And again 334 00:18:17.079 --> 00:18:20.880 we've also published this. This is not incidental or coincidental. 335 00:18:21.000 --> 00:18:25.720 This is planned. So there's indication from before the events 336 00:18:25.960 --> 00:18:29.079 that these people went into the events wanting to die. 337 00:18:29.160 --> 00:18:32.039 That's been proven, that shown, we've published that, so that's clear. 338 00:18:32.319 --> 00:18:35.599 And as you all know, the relationship between gun production, 339 00:18:35.799 --> 00:18:40.680 gun availability, etc. And suicide is so strong, so it's 340 00:18:40.720 --> 00:18:44.079 really hard to ignore the relationship between mass shootings and 341 00:18:44.119 --> 00:18:48.000 gun availability, and that obviously speaks directly to prevention, but 342 00:18:48.079 --> 00:18:50.240 other things have happened, so that's what we would refer 343 00:18:50.319 --> 00:18:54.400 to as a more proximal causative factor or motivation or 344 00:18:54.440 --> 00:18:58.119 then obviously possible preventive factor. We can go more upstream. 345 00:18:58.160 --> 00:19:01.119 There are other factors. So mental owns and mass shootings 346 00:19:01.119 --> 00:19:03.200 in mass murder. System of mental illness is actually kind 347 00:19:03.200 --> 00:19:05.799 of it's its own category of mass shootings and mass murder. 348 00:19:05.920 --> 00:19:08.119 So if we're talking about other types of mass shootings, 349 00:19:08.440 --> 00:19:11.440 we can go further. So, for example, there are potential 350 00:19:11.599 --> 00:19:18.680 interventions such as limiting the amount that we meaning society 351 00:19:18.759 --> 00:19:23.880 maybe especially media, share private information or identifying information about 352 00:19:23.920 --> 00:19:26.799 mass shooters. And in this case we're particularly talking about 353 00:19:26.799 --> 00:19:29.759 the public mass shooters, there's a I guess we'll call 354 00:19:29.799 --> 00:19:34.079 it a psychological profile of a public mass shooter in particular, 355 00:19:34.119 --> 00:19:36.680 and these are the mass shooters of which most people 356 00:19:36.720 --> 00:19:40.200 are most familiar. The Sandy Hook mass shooter that the 357 00:19:40.319 --> 00:19:41.720 Washington Navy are, and mass shooter. 358 00:19:41.799 --> 00:19:42.480 Those sorts of mass. 359 00:19:42.319 --> 00:19:44.559 Shooters, those are what we referred to as public mass shootings, 360 00:19:44.599 --> 00:19:47.279 which are actually the third most common type of mass shooting. 361 00:19:47.799 --> 00:19:49.960 Familiar side mass shootings are the most common type. Those 362 00:19:49.960 --> 00:19:53.279 are private mass shootings, which probably have different than motivating 363 00:19:53.319 --> 00:19:56.359 factors and maybe preventive strategies. The second most common type 364 00:19:56.400 --> 00:20:00.319 are the felonious mass shootings, those perpetrated as of some 365 00:20:00.359 --> 00:20:01.920 sort of crime or felony. And then we have the 366 00:20:01.920 --> 00:20:05.640 public maschootings, which account for about fifteen percent of mass shootings. 367 00:20:05.720 --> 00:20:10.079 Either way, one strategy for decreasing public mass shootings is 368 00:20:10.119 --> 00:20:14.960 to negate or minimize the third component of the profile. 369 00:20:15.119 --> 00:20:17.200 So I'll go backwards. But the third component of the 370 00:20:17.240 --> 00:20:23.160 profile is the severe market desire for notoriety or fame. 371 00:20:23.359 --> 00:20:25.960 That is why these mass shootings are perpetrated in public 372 00:20:26.039 --> 00:20:30.279 rather than private. It's this severe desire infamy or fame 373 00:20:30.480 --> 00:20:34.720 and notoriety. That's number three. Number two again going backwards, 374 00:20:35.079 --> 00:20:40.559 is the severe nihilism or emptiness experienced by these people, 375 00:20:40.559 --> 00:20:44.119 and this is almost universal. Nihilism again refers to I'm 376 00:20:44.119 --> 00:20:45.759 sure a lot of people understand what Nyland has been, 377 00:20:45.839 --> 00:20:49.079 refers to a sense of emptiness, a sense of having 378 00:20:49.119 --> 00:20:52.319 no severe sense of having no meaning, almost like you're 379 00:20:52.319 --> 00:20:55.000 not alive. There's no purpose to life, which in its 380 00:20:55.000 --> 00:20:58.559 severest form than manifests as suicide. And that's why suicide 381 00:20:58.640 --> 00:21:02.519 is so frequent among mass and also which we have published. 382 00:21:02.920 --> 00:21:06.960 Although ninety percent of suicide is usually associated with some 383 00:21:07.000 --> 00:21:09.400 sort of psychiatric sort of that number is much less 384 00:21:09.400 --> 00:21:12.599 among mass shooters. So there's this epidemic of emptiness and 385 00:21:12.640 --> 00:21:15.640 nihilism that we have to deal with and address. And 386 00:21:15.680 --> 00:21:19.759 then number one, probably the greatest again risk factor potential 387 00:21:19.880 --> 00:21:22.759 risk factor for masshootings in general, but also public mass shootings, 388 00:21:22.880 --> 00:21:25.119 is what we've discussed, and that is this It's not 389 00:21:25.200 --> 00:21:28.279 just availability or access to firearms, which is universal, of course, 390 00:21:28.599 --> 00:21:31.279 but it is in terms of just the mass shooter. 391 00:21:31.839 --> 00:21:33.799 Is the market. 392 00:21:33.440 --> 00:21:37.680 Affinity for or fascination with firearms. So these are the 393 00:21:37.680 --> 00:21:41.880 three kind of characteristics of nearly all public mass shooters. Again, 394 00:21:41.920 --> 00:21:43.720 we want to be sensitive, so we want to capture 395 00:21:43.720 --> 00:21:45.319 all of them, but we also want to be specific 396 00:21:45.319 --> 00:21:50.039 in terms of statistical terms when we describe this profile. 397 00:21:50.240 --> 00:21:54.599 So you're blowing my mind because doctor Shiloh and I, 398 00:21:55.279 --> 00:21:59.559 you know, our work overlaps in our connection to law enforcement, 399 00:21:59.680 --> 00:22:02.359 and we get sort of the same trainings. But Shiloh 400 00:22:02.400 --> 00:22:05.000 gets a whole set of training taking her in this direction. 401 00:22:05.119 --> 00:22:09.319